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Listeners. I am Dan's Valley coming at you without my co host Adam FROMO,
but we are pleased or I am pleased as usual to be joined by
longtime colleague Slash friend Slash reoccurring guests Slash also a longtime friend of this podcast,
Bleacher Reports Grant Hughes as always remember to follow him on Twitter at gt
Underscore Hughes. Grant, how are you doing. I'm doing very well under
the circumstances. Dan. I'm glad to talk talk with you again. I
think it's a I don't know how long it's been, but I always enjoy
these, so I'm excited to get to it. I've been bothering you more
frequently lately, so it's definitely not as long as it's been as as it
has been in the past, So so there's that we are an off season
mode now, though although I guess we were there at one point, Like
this is the second off season, Like it's kind of weird, like it's
the it's the off season, off season, but we also already had the
off season a little bit and stuff's gonna start ramping up, like we have
the draft. We don't have a scheduled date for free agency, but we
know it's gonna happen by December first. And I'm you know, I love
the off season stuff, but this off season specifically enough to stop myself from
saying summer because it's almost freaking November at this point. I'm just I'm like,
I don't know what the word is, confused or I have zero expectations
just because I don't know what is going to happen. Just with the we
figure the salary cap is gonna be lateral, but like, how does that
impact team spending and what are they gonna do with the luxury tax? Does
that mean there's gonna be more movement, less movement, more trades, fewer
trades. I just have no idea what to expect going away. I'm kind
of looking forward to it. I agree. I think, first of all,
what did we even talk about during the hiatus, because it felt like
there was just we did. We only talk about the off season from like
March to July when you and I did. I think you and I did
a podcast called Fuck the Goat Debate, so like that we did we did
talk about something like that. Well, then I guess we should be no
but but but for the for this offseason. I'm glad you said that because
I think like it seems like generally, going into an off season, there
will be a prevailing conventional wisdom I guess of well, this is a good
free agent class, or there's x number of high end free agents, or
this is a bad free agent class, or you know, we have sort
of a narrative for it. I think generally, and this one is just
kind of like I don't think anybody really knows. I mean, other than
we all agree the draft is confusing and there's not a superstar in it.
Maybe and then agency is a little barren and especially compared to twenty one.
But I think there's so many like overarching uncertainties with like will teams you knows
what are teams financial situations and how does that effect whether they'll even use the
mL E. So all these guys we think, well, all that's an
mL E guy, or that you know, he's a taxpayer mL E guy,
Like our team's even gonna use that because of the tax ramifications and they
have less revenue. There's just a bunch of sort of unknowns, and so
I think that makes this kind of weirdly one of the more interesting offseasons I
can remember, just because it seems kind of, I don't know, unpredictable.
I guess is the word ideas? Yeah, look, you like sort
of alluded to this too. But when you're looking at whether teams are going
to use the MLLE or not, the fact that you probably have I would
say between twenty to twenty two teams that are gonna have the same level of
spending power in the non taxpayer mL and that there's just not a lot of
catspace out there. There are going to be guys invariably who signed for much
less than we expect. Is that going to invite shorter contracts because they want
to get back to free agency quicker? Or you're actually gonna be worried about
how the coronavirus pandemic really impacts the long term revenue of this league. And
you're like, you know what, let me just lock down my money now
whatever I could get, because twenty twenty one seems like it's gonna better,
twenty twenty two seems like it's going to be better. But unless I'm Anthony
Davis, is it actually going to be better? Yeah? No, I
think I think you hit on one key thing is that there's going to be
a lot of like incredible value short term contracts signed this I was gonna say
that this summer because I can't stop doing that either this offseason, just because
like there's a finite number of mid level exceptions that are out there, and
that number may be much smaller than we think. And so if you're a
player that is obviously worth the mL E in a normal year, suddenly those
are just gonna kind of get, you know, taken up, and you
might be an MLI player that has to settle for the bi annual or the
taxpayer or I don't know, minimum even and maybe an extreme case. It's
just there's gonna be some big winners. And my guests would be that it's
teams with that are ready to contend right now, because all things being equal,
you're probably gonna want to take your mid level or whatever from a team
that has a decent sized role for you and it's gonna win a bunch of
games. But but I don't know, that's just that's just kind of my
gut. Yeah. I mean, the last thing I'll say this is like
the progression I've had is wondering, like, how much more than the mid
level Paul millsapp is going to get to thinking like is he gonna end up
signing for the bi annual, Like not even the Mini mL at this point,
but the biannnual. So, like you said, it's just going to
be wild and interesting. So, speaking of that word, we're gonna get
to what our most interesting teams are for the offseason. We selected them blindly,
so there might be overlap, but we each have weach have pivots.
We selected five. There might be some quick hitters if we if we have
a ton of overlap before we get to them. Though, I wanted to
ask about Zach Low had said on his podcast with Bill Simmons that to keep
an eye on the Milwaukee Bucks and the Victor Ladipo sweepstakes, and I've kind
of been operating under the assumption that the Basers won't trade Oladipo just because I
feel like I don't. I feel like he's not worth that much right now,
and you probably you have a better chance of rehabilitating his value leading into
the trade deadline. At the same time, I'm sort of curious, like
how you feel about a potential Bucks play going after that type of player,
because if you can buy like low on someone of his caliber, it seems
to make sense for the Bucks. Then again, at the same time,
like you're probably looking at giving up Dante di Vincenzo at least one future first
round pick in addition to the Eric Bledsoe. And I'd assume that unless Indiana
really likes him, that he's probably going somewhere else. And like maybe Atlanta's
willing to give up like a low end first to send to Indiana for someone
like him to take him into their cap space, and that's why he's more
accessible than a Drew Holiday. But knowing what's kind of happened with Oladipo over
the past two years, if you're the Bucks, like, is that the
guy, Like I know you're under pressure because of Janice's upcoming free agency and
you want to know whether he's going to sign a Supermax or not, and
then if he doesn't, you have a whole year of speculation. But it's
only deepo the guy to unload your asset clip, which relative to other teams
is not very deep. But like we're still talking about if you have to
give up a distant first round pick up that could you know, go past
the Jannish years with you, Like that's obviously not nothing. And so I
find myself like both I've basically morbidly curious about the Oladipo to Milwaukee chatter.
So a couple of things. I think. I think that for the reasons
you you mentioned about not wanting to give up you know, first's way down
the line or really just potentially post Yannis, in addition to just not having
a bunch of like Bloodzow's the salary that's just gotta go in any how do
we make the Bucks better? You know transaction? And like I just don't
know who is going to say to themselves? You know, you know who
really you know makes us significantly better? Is is Eric Bledsoe, Like I
just that's just not you know he's a fine player, but it's just not
that enticing. But as to Oladipo specifically, I'm not sure he's not he's
not the guy, but I think he's a guy and he might be among
the best guys that the Bucks can realistically hope to get with what they have.
But it's sort of like, which version of Oladipo. If it's like
seventeen eighteen Oladipo, We're not even having this conversation obviously, because he's not
on the table and the Pacers have already extended him or you know, they'll
do that at their earliest opportunity. But he does kind of make some sense,
right Like he I think if healthy is on blood Cell's level defensively,
he might be even more useful because he's a little longer. I think he
seems duplicative, because when he was really good with Indiana a couple of years
ago, he was just kind of like, well, he has the ball
in the middle of the floor thirty feet from the basket, and he can
just beat his guy downhill, which is what Janis does in their system.
So I'm not sure how that works. But he can run a pick and
roll his per play efficiency was really good in the eighties, something of percentile
as a ball handler a couple of years ago in his in his kind of
breakout season, spot up shooting is fine, which you're gonna need on the
Bucks thirty nine percent, I think in seventeen eighteen. But what percentage of
that guy is he? I don't know. But if you're telling me it's
I'm rolling the dice on Oladipo, who might not be any good anymore and
might probably will just be gone after this year. I'm kind of more interested
in that than Bledsoe and Devincenzo, honestly, because they are under pressure the
Bucks are, and Oladipo even if he isn't what you know he could be,
even if he falls short of that. I think the other thing you
look at is you can go to Giannis and say like, hey, we
got you, we got you an all start like this guy, this was
the best we could do. And I do think there's value in that.
But but yeah, I don't know if he's the guy. I guess,
but I just don't know, Like, is there someone is who's your guy?
Like if you are the Bucks and it's not oladip is there someone out
there that just is like, well, this is the fix, this is
what is gonna get us what we need if we're trying to keep it semi
realistic, because you could say Bradley beal easily. But I don't think the
path to them getting better would be to give up Chris Middleton in any trade.
Just on balance for them, I think it would be Drew Holiday.
And I don't know if using Bletso let's say the twenty four pick and then
de Vincenzo, like, does that get it done? And like the asset
that I keep coming back to is their twenty twenty four first round pick.
And I've had this conversation with a bunch of people, probably including you.
There are certain teams where it feels like these distant first round picks are so
valuable, and yet I don't know that front office is thinking those terms because
they look at it as well, we might not be the people using that
pick. And so how value you know, in a vacuum a twenty twenty
four bucks pick if it's loosely protected, knowing that could be posty honest,
hyper valuable. But if you're a front office, can you guarantee you're going
to be in place four drafts from now. I don't. Maybe Kevin Purchardon
Indiana believes that he will be so, But aside from like that type of
situation, I don't know how many front offices would be inclined to really value
that for a pick that's not going to convey for so long unless they think
they could immediately flip it. And so I don't know if your package is
And look, there could be third teams involved, but I keep coming back
to Atlanta as a spot for Bledsoe, and that's if they don't want to
spend their their cap space. He just seems like a good fit beside Trey
Young. But aside from getting like a real like you're not going to get
one of their young wings for Bledsoe. Maybe Kevin Herder, but I would
still say no there, you might get like a lower end first round pick.
They have that OKC lottery protected twenty twenty two pick, Like maybe that's
the pick they give up. That's the maximum you're getting for Bledsoe. But
just some permutation of Bletsoe this year's first after you use it obviously, and
then Dante DiVincenzo, Is that enough to get you with Drew Holiday. Is
he the guy that gets you over the hump? Is that puts you in
play for for anyone else? I don't even you could say that a careis
Lavert or Spencer dim what. He makes a ton of sense for this team,
But that package doesn't make a ton of sense for Booklyn, a team
that's also trying to win. Now, Yeah, I think the Bucks are
just such a I mean, I don't envy that position, which is crazy
to say about a team that has a two time MVP, but their paths
to getting better just aren't that really, Like, I think I agree that
Holiday would be great, like he might be you know, you ask who
the guy, Vladipo's the guy, Holiday might be the guy. The problem
is, I think Holiday is the guy for like five other teams at least,
And I think that New Orleans actually has a pretty good case to just
want to keep him. I know I personally have argued several times, Well,
you think about the timeline not matching up, and you know they're built
around Ingram and Zion and you know, Holidays thirty and there's just it doesn't
make sense they got to trade him. But like, if they do trade
him, they're going to have a bunch of suitors. I think you basically
any team that has bad salary and picks, I think is just going to
be involved. And obviously Holiday to me is a better value and a better
player than Ala Depot right now. I think maybe, like if the Bucks
did get Aladipot, it might be because the market just isn't that great for
him, and that's as good as Indiana can do, right and they don't
want to wait like to the trade deadline and look to the Bucks's credit in
that situation, He's an expiring contract and so if you're getting off Pletzel's money
in the process, like you could just kind of look at it. Seltianness
is not only do we get you a guy who profiles is an all star
if he's healthy, but now we might just have some flexibility moving forward even
if we don't have the assets. The only other name that I could really
think of for them would be they seem like a team where zach Lavine would
be perfect, like just helicopter him into that number three spot. You could
have him like cut, you could have him shoot catch and shoot jumpers.
But he also gives you that extra layer of postseason shot creation, because those
are the shots that he's making with the Bulls almost exclusively right now. Yeah,
And if you can hide, you know, you need to hide him
defensively too, And I I think the Bucks are about as good a place
as anywhere to do that. I keep coming back to. I think for
me, what I hope is that the Bucks don't play offense the same way
going forward, and that to me means you need a guy who's going to
be like a primary pick and roll ball handler that is, you know,
orders of magnitude, better at it than Bledsoe and is a threat to you
know, shoot when guys go under or don't stay glued, you know,
coming over the top. The problem is, like, man, that guy's
hard to find because everybody wants that guy, because that is like your number
one option on most good NBA offenses, but because if you just kind of
slot in like another you know not. I think Lavine is a fine option,
but he's not gonna turn, you honest into you know, a permanent
the best role man in the league, which I think he has the potential
to be, which is probably to me, how the Bucks should play.
This is me, by the way, saying I know more about how Milwaukee
should play than Mike Udenholzer, which is ridiculous, but just as a spectator,
that's what I want, and I think that Again, the Bucks were
not one of my most interesting teams or one that I intended to talk about,
but and but like if they were able to get a guy that could
sort of revamp how they play. Chris Paul is obviously someone that got mentioned
initially, but seems like there's no way that would happen that would make that,
which is which is bullshit because that seems like a money thing for them.
I'm not saying that. I know people have mentioned that they can include
George Hill and Brook Lopez in perspective deals. My whole thing is like Chris
Paul is really good, but like you don't want to end up trading like
three to four rotation players for him, because like that you still come out
maybe your team's a little bit better, but they're definitely more susceptible to one
injury. And so it's what can you do to sweeten I call it the
poopoo platter package of bletso Iliasova Lopez, assuming he picks up his player option
in DJ Wilson, Like, that's the money you need for Chris Paul.
Does it take anything else to get him? Because Bletso is on the books
for another like two point five years, since the final year of his contract
is only partially guaranteed. I don't know, but like that's the package I
would be. You know, you talk about the guy. The guy you
just described is Chris Paul. What can you attach to that package? Does
number twenty four do it? Is that too much? It's Dante DiVincenzo too
much for you? I don't think either asset would be a deal breaker for
me, both of them together. Uh, definitely might be for me.
Definitely might be. There's a there's a turn of freeze for you, but
like that should be with Jannest approaching free agency. These you know, the
team governors claiming like, yeah, we'll pay, we'll pay the tax if
we have to. But like you let Malcolm Brogdon go. And I know
people thought that was made too much of in the moment, but it's been
proven that he wasn't just a luxury for them. And so if you have
a chance to get Chris Paul and it's not costing you more than that poop
poop platter package than one like sort of minor asset. I'm not trading my
twenty twenty four pick for Chris Paul. I'm doing it like and that should
be the I think the report from the Athletic is saying the Bucks aren't interested
in that because of the money. But like, you have a chance to
add someone whose second team All NBA last year and who probably owned he gets
better when you project him onto the Eastern Conference. That's absolutely wild to me
that it would be something you wouldn't do. But of course money obviously matters,
even though in this case he really shouldn't. You know, this is
a sort of a tangent. But every time so I've been having a really
hard time evaluating what Chris Paul's value is because he did have such a good
year and he does sort of seem like a fix for like anyone that needs
offensive stewardship and just general like you know, control. But I don't know
if I swear I see packages of well, it's gonna cost you picks to
get off of Chris Paul, or no, actually it's gonna cost the other
team picks because that's what OKC wants and that's a plausible trade. I just
don't I don't know what his value is. But what it makes me think
all the time is why aren't all the teams that you see linked in rumors
to Chris Paul just kicking down the Raptors door for Kyle Lowry instead, Because
that's a one that's an expiring deal. And it may just be because Toronto
is like, no, he's gonna retire here and then we're going to build
a statue. But to me, Lowry might be the guy for the books
as I think about more, because there's a guy like, there's your guy
who's just gonna kind of, you know, when things start to look a
little dicey in the second round again next year and then here we go again,
talk starts. Lowry is the guy that's gonna say no, no,
no, like, here's how it's gonna go, and he's gonna fix it.
I just he shouldn't cost as much as Paul to get just because he's
a rental. But again, I admit, I don't know what Paul's value
should be, But I just think Lowry should be talked about a little more
because he kind of fixes everything for almost any team. He goes too well.
I think the two things there is that he probably does cost you more
in my mind because he's quote unquote a rental or at least an expiring contract,
where with Chris Paul, it's like, you have two years and eighty
five point six million dollars that you have to pay him, and so like
that's a to pay him forty four point two million dollars in the final year
of that deal, Like that's a ton of money. And the other thing
here is that Toronto for now, like maybe Lowry becomes the guy for a
lot of teams or more gettable if they're not trying to win, but they
just came within one victory of the Eastern Conference finals, and it's like,
why would they move him right now? In my mind, he's an expiring
contracts. He's not harshing their flexibility. They're not going to tank next year
no matter what they're doue or at least they don't think they will. If
they end up losing fred Van Fleet Abaka and Gasol in free agency and they
don't want to sign anyone else with resulting cap space or whatever, then yeah,
I totally get it. But Chris Paul plays for a team that doesn't
seem to be tracking with his timeline anymore, and that plus the extra year
I think just makes him eminently more available and then cheaper by extension. And
I'm with you, I don't really know what his value is. We've definitely
moved past. I believe that they have to attach something too Chris Paul to
get rid of him. And it's also just, in hindsight weird that that
was ever really a thing, knowing how good he was this year. However,
it's like, are they actually gonna get even like a semi good young
player or a low end pick for him when he's owed that much money,
or if they can just get some cheaper contracts most of them expiring, Like
that's the package you just pulled a trigger on. Yeah, I just don't
know. I don't know. It just made me think a lowry And obviously
the answer to why isn't Lowry coming up more is because he is really good
and a really huge value on that contract. Still, so that makes I
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conditions of by offer valid through December thirty. First, talk about a tangent
we can get into our most interesting teams this offseason. Now, there was
no criteria for this. It's just for whatever reason, we find them intriguing.
And so, as the guest extraordinaire, who is your first team?
I think it's pretty predictable because so this I picked the Warriors, and that's
because to me, obviously, it's rare to have a theoretical contender picking second
in a draft and having all these all this you know, injury related,
comeback unknown stuff. They got to fill out a roster. They got these
weird uh you know, they got Andrew Wiggins contract, They have that seventeen
point two million traded player exception. They have Minnesota's top three protected twenty twenty
one first, they have all these I don't know what I call them options,
but they've got these tools to really theoretically change the roster. And they're
different than most of these other teams because the clock is sort of ticking like
that that tpe goes away, right, They have, you know, use
it or lose it. And the draft is another sort of time constraint is
if you're gonna move this number two pick, time clocks ticking on that too.
So they are the ones I think that have sort of maximum urgency time
wise, and certainly because their core is on the absolute backpack end, I
think of their primes, so there's urgency there too. So to me,
for all the reasons I've and all the things I just mentioned and kind of
a you know, dump it all out at once manner, I think they're
my most interesting offseason team, and I have absolutely no idea what they're going
to do with any of those tools. Like there's a million guys they could
go after with the TP. There's a bunch of options with that number two
pick, whether they use it or not. So they're just kind of fascinating
to me. I don't know which way you want to take it. Do
you want to do you want to do the TPE first and talk about that
because it is kind of related to that second pick. They're probably enough to
package of those, right or they're gonna have to like do trade the TP
for or I say trade the TPA would take like a James Johnson into the
TP, so that they could acquire a more expensive player with James Johnson and
they would have with the the TP, which is going to be more stringent,
I think, So I'm with you. I have the Warriors on my
list too, because they have so many moving parts and the traded player exception
is a good place to start, because I think these traded player exceptions are
normally overvalued because teams don't. Yes, players get sent into traded these tps
all the time, but like it's part of these like staggered deals where those
like other moving parts. It's very rarely do you just get a good player
in it for TP. Maybe that's the summer where there's the offseason excuse me
where this changes because so many teams are hard up after the gate revenue losses,
or because as they have that second pick, like it's just such a
convenient package. It's you don't really have to give regard for salary. If
you see a player, you like, there's the TPE and that pick,
and like that's the deal. Or you can turn again the TP into like
an expensive expiring contract and use that as the framework. Like one example would
be like number two and James Johnson for Aaron Gordon. Like let's say the
lawyers get James Johnson for the TPE or even accuse Gorky Jang from Memphis,
and they send that expiring contract to Orlando with the number two pick for Aaron
Gordon. People that I've mentioned this too. I think that that's an overpay
for Aaron Gordon the number two picks, So maybe Orlando gives you where they
have number fifteen in the draft, so maybe they give you that back as
well. Like those types of deals, like they seem like they just seem
they're they're more possible now, like this TV means something again under the circumstances.
But also because the Warriors have that pick to attach, right, and
I think it is it's a weird situation, right because so my pres I
think, I think the smart move and maybe this is just me being kind
of risk averse, is I would want to use that number two pick.
I know, I know nobody thinks, and it'd probably be on James Wiseman,
who, like I can't remember the last prospect that might go second that
we knew less about. But but like I like the idea of let's get
this guy who's maybe a bridge to the next era. We're gonna need a
center because Nikolayokich cannot be guarded by Dramond Green in a playoff series the whole
time. Kavon Looney can play twenty minutes a night. Maybe, so you
need a big guy, which is kind of fun to me. Now,
like the NBA is is, I guess the big Guy's not totally dead if
you have Anthony Davis and Yokich and to a much lesser extent, zoobots in
the same conference that you're trying to get through. But if you do use
that number two pick, then I don't know why anybody wants anything to do
with that TPE. You know, if you if you use it to get
James Johnson, what are you sent or what are you sending to Minnesota for
James Johnson or whatever? You know, the expiring salary of your choice.
Johnson's one of the best. But are you sending a future second or like
I just something small if anything, because I think that's like a money saving
move. But who wants to do the Warriors a favor? Is the other
thing? Well, that's that's definitely a fair question. So it gets really
complicated if you aren't viewing the TPE and that second pick as a package,
because then, like you said, then you're talking. And that's what's rare
about this one is normally it is that situation of like, well, what
do we want this? We don't want to give you this expiring salary for
like a future second Why do we want to do that. We'll trade him
for a first round or at the deadline or something. You know, that's
how it used to be anyway. So I just I don't know. I
think Daron Gordon thing he's literally the first guy on my list of TPE options,
just because I think he's come up the most often, and not just
in relation to this. I feel like the Warriors have always been linked to
him. But there's a bunch of other, you know, not necessarily needle
moving type of options, unless you think the Celtics for some reason would move
Marcus Smart or you could do the James Johnson roundabout thing and try to go
get Miles Turner, which is super pie in the sky. I just I
don't know. Gordon seems like the guy to me, but but I don't.
You know, Kelly Ubre, maybe you swap picks with the Suns and
you do Ubre for the TPE, which I don't think you'd have to.
Maybe you would have to do the preliminary trade to do that. I forget
exactly what. Yeah, so you're good, But like if that's the Warriors
big offseason move man, that's not enough, and that's kind of gets into
the next thing of can you get anything for Wiggins? And then you're packaging.
You have to be talking about package packaging Wiggins and the Wolves twenty twenty
one. Is that getting you beal? I kind of doubt it. Maybe
I don't know. With a bunch of other stuff throwing in, is that
getting you holiday? I think that's a little closer. But the other thing
is, well, maybe let's leave it at that. Are you what are
your thoughts on Wiggins as a trade piece and that other pick, which I
think is to me is significantly more valuable than this year's number two. So
I think I had you on for the trade deadline grades and I crapped all
over the Warriors making the Wiggins deal. I may have come around on it
a little bit where if it's framed as what is getting you further in trade
offers right now DeAngelo Russell and number two pick, or if you have Andrew
Wiggins the number two pick and that Minnesota pick, I think it's the latter
is going to net you more. So I'm not sure where I land on
Andrew Wiggins is a trade asset specifically, other than the fact that him plus
those two other picks is more intriguing to me than DeAngelo Russell plus the number
two pick. Yeah, I think that's right. I wish I could remember
what I said. That sounds like something I might have said the time,
but I don't remember. It was a lot harder to you at the time
because we didn't know where the Warriors were gonna end up in the lottery,
and so that changes things a little bit. But I just having that Minnesota
pick ends up being a big deal because I don't think they're gonna be great
next year when you just look at the landscape of the Western co friends and
I run counter to you, though before I like you carry on with what
you're gonna say is I don't want them to use this pick because unless you
think Anthony Edwards is the guy to bridge you into the future, I don't
like the other two options there. You know, you mentioned James Wiseman.
A lot of people are high on him, but everyone except for Zubots that
you named whim talking about big swarre back, James Wiseman doesn't profile as someone
who could defend any of them, which is a problem for me. And
then right, but I don't think Aaron Gordon is going to give you a
better chance against Anthony Davis long term than James Wiseman would be just my counter.
Like you have Draymond Green and Aaron Gordon, I think are two guys
that you can throw at Anthony Davis and feel pretty good about it immediately.
And so if you're looking at contending with the Lakers, like that's something you
have to consider. And I'm not saying that Gordon definitely needs to be worth
the number two pick. I think in this draft. I'm not a LaMelo
guy either, so I would probably do it for an expiring contract and number
two if I'm Golden State, definitely would do it if you can get number
fifteen from Orlando was part of that deal as well. I'm just not high
on this draft. And like, even if you are believer that LaMelo could
be the bridges of the future, I don't really see how you set him
up to do that on this roster when it was so difficult for you to
make it work with D'Angelo Russell, when you didn't even really have Steph available,
and like now you're gonna have Steff available, and you're gonna have someone
who's just worse than D'Angel Russell because he's a rookie so and he's certainly more
erratic than deangel Russell is. Again, just be looking at this stage of
his career. So if Annie Edwards is there and you really want him,
like, then maybe I consider keeping it. But just looking at the other
options if you really want to use this caliber of pick, I'm sort of
looking at trading down, Like is Charlotte gonna give you? I don't think
you'll give you Davante Graham to move up once? Bob, would they give
you Miles Bridges? Like you know you want to do something with Terry Rozier
there, like where there's another step ladder scenario where it's James Johnson. I'm
at number two for Terry Rozier and number three, Like maybe that's something I
would would consider. But I'm against the Warriors using the number two pick unless
unless Anty Edwards is there and they believe he's the guy. Yeah, see,
I think I should I should be clear. I don't think. I
don't think I don't want any part of ball or Edwards on this Warrior's team
particularly, but and Wiseman obviously, Like anytime I talk about Wiseman. I'm
sort of thinking of him as if he's going to hit the you know,
ninetieth percentile of his you know, potential spectrum potential outcomes, like the version
of Wiseman that is actually incredibly nimble for his size and it is just a
nuclear athlete. I think that's pretty well accepted that he is just an incredible
like size, speed, strength, bounce combination, a guy like the guy
you know, if he's that, if he's if he's just the one of
the five best athletes at the position in the league. And I do think
he is kind of your not your answer, but he gives you a fighting
chance against some of the bigger guys in the West. But to your point,
I think trading down or if they do trade this pick, it's kind
of sneakily really important for them to get. You know, it doesn't really
matter so much where it is, but something in the you know, if
it's not Charlotte's say, like you know, six to fifteen or something,
because there are kind of a lot of guys that profile as three in D
role players, and you know, quietly, the Warriors don't really have a
lot of those, and they need they need Wiggins to be that guy,
right, Clay Thompson with the fair amount of question marks with a major injury,
and Wiggins is like alarmingly important to the team because he theoretically could be
the defensive end of that. I don't know how, you know, that's
the role he's in. I don't know if he's gonna be able to do
that. But if they can trade down and get one of those, you
know, any number of Devin Vassal or like Patrick Williams or probably a Kora
would be gone. But depending on how far they trade it down. But
that's like, that's huge for them because that guy's probably gonna play, or
you know, you hope he can play, because they're just so thin at
that position. Right, And so maybe I'm under selling James Wiseman's switchability just
off the based off the preliminary stuff I've seen of him, there's definitely like
the movement there. I would question, like is his offensive range ever going
to develop? I'm just so hesitant to even use such a top pick on
a big right now. Maybe this draft class kind of justifies it, but
I'm I'm team move the pick, like move it in some form, and
you mentioned it like, you know, if you wanted to, I would
say, if you want to take a swing on one of those three d
guys at number two, Like, if you're that gutsy, then maybe I
might even support that more than just default thing to Anthony Edwards, lamel Ball
and Dames Wiseman or who's ever there. So it's such a complicated situation.
But then the flip side of this is how are other teams valuing the number
two pick? Which is why I'm gonna throw some trade scenarios at you,
and I want to see what you think of them. Okay, are you
ready? Are you bracing ready? I'm excited? All right? So you
mentioned Miles Turner already. If you can do Miles Turner and an expiring contract
four number two, who's saying no to that? So the Warriors are getting
Turner and and what they're getting Turner for number two? They're getting Turner for
number two, And then they would have to like, let's say the quote
unquote TV you got yeah, I do that in a heartbeat if i'd the
Warriors, I don't, I don't. I don't think twice would the Pacers
consider that? I don't think So, I mean I think to me like
Turner is a way for you to try to go. I think I might
be maybe you're with me. I don't know. I feel like Turner is
super valuable and that may be more just about thinking about him in theory than
you know, his production, which hasn't been super great. But a guy
that can block shots and and I think you know, the volume hasn't really
been there, but can spread the floor and shoot threes. There's just aren't
a lot of those guys. And I think, especially with Draymond Green playing
the four, you could your five's got to be able to space. Like
that's just that's just how it's gonna have to work if the Warriors are going
to be any good. I'm not sure. So if you're Indie, you're
doing that to take either Ball or Edwards whoever's still there after Minnesota picks.
So you're sort of trading Turner for theoretically your your lead guard of the future,
right, And I mean Veka turn around and said aulsewhere But like they're
also a team that's done a pretty good job of straddling the present with the
future, Like I could see like you would still I think with brog in
there still having Sabonis like you can have that, like make that deal and
then still be a playoff team in the Eastern Conference, and you might be
able to talk to yourself into saying, well, one, maybe go go
patads can give you more minutes next year, or can we approximate at least,
you know, part of Turner's offense and defense for a lot cheaper on
the free agency market. And I'm not saying that you could, but like
what happens if you, you know, you go out and you get like
a does does the mid level get you? Serge Ibaka this year? Does
it get you? You know? Can you even Chris Bouchet like in Fear,
just a shot blocking machine who was showing it his bace of floor a
little bit. My other scenario that I was going to throw at you,
though, would be like the I don't know if it would constitute a Pacers
reset because of how good they've been with whatever wings come into their system,
but the money would be and this works. It's Andrew Wiggins number two,
the Minnesota pick, and I think Jordan Pool Cavon Looney has to be in
there. So Cavon Looney Andrew Wiggins number two, the Minnesota pick for Oladipo
and Miles Turner. Oh, you know I'm doing that if I'm the Warriors,
just because I think Turner is so important and such a fit, and
I think that am I doing that? That's a good trade If I'm having
to ask that question more than once, are we sure Indiana wants to do
that? So that was my thing. Andrew Wiggins is three years and ninety
four point eight million dollars left on his deal. I think this package becomes
a lot more palatable if you have no intention of paying Victor Ladippo the money
he wants. I'm not saying Andrew Wiggins replaces him, but you look at
how Wings have just outperformed expectations on both ends of the floor since going to
Indie, Like you look at what TJ. Warren did last year, you
look at what Boyon Bogdanovitch did there even justin holiday like turning into this guy
with and guard backup. Four is if you're confident in your program, and
I know you have a new head coach now, and maybe that sort of
factors into that equation where you maybe don't know how scalable that system, those
principles are with having Nate I'm going to butcher this, but Jorkin like,
there, that's a concern. So that Andrew Wiggins being like this net minus
of a contract like certainly hurts you. There. I would you know,
you could throw in Golden State's own pick next year as well, Like depending
on when you're timing this trade, like you could go the number two pick,
Golden State's pick next year and the Minnesota pick and then for Turner and
Oladipo with Wiggins and Kevon Looney. Like maybe that's something that's more palatable,
but it's tough for me to escape the feeling that that still kind of feels
like a reset for Indie because where does like your cores then Sabonus, Malcolm
Brogden, T J Warren, Andrew Wiggins, and then like you have those
picks. It's like where does that really put you? In the East?
I think too. Indiana is one of the most historically tax averse teams in
the league, and if you not that, they'd be in it. But
having Wiggins on your roster just makes everything harder, you know, just having
that having that salary, I think, but like, look, so you
still have Sabonus, you you have Brogden, you have whoever you take it
too, and you got I'm with you. I think that Minnesota pick could
potentially be huge. Well, it might be too valuable because it might be
top three, and the protections might you know, might keep it from you.
But actually, forget if that converts or what it converts into. I
think it might. Well, I don't know. I don't want to speak
on it if I'm not sure. We can look it up in a second,
but I don't know. To me, Indy says no, which is
kind of nuts, thinking you get a number two and a potentially super valuable
first the next year. But yeah, I don't know. For the from
the warrior's perspective, I mean, that solves a lot of problems. It
makes them a lot deeper, It gives them another defensive wing if all depos
is healthy. And Turner again is just like a perfect fit. So yeah,
I like that. I think I like that too, would you do?
It's basically so Andrew Wiggins and Kevon Looney and number two plus the Minnesota
pick for Drew Holliday and JJ Reddick. That feels like, I don't know
why, it feels like too much for those two guys, but not too
much for Aladipo on turn Well, so the thing for me would be that
Drew Holliday is probably going to be a free agent twenty twenty one, and
then JJ Reddick is expiring, and so it's like, yes, you're getting
off the Wiggins contract, but to use your two best trade chips on guys
who are going to be entering free agency, it feels like risky for that.
And so I'm wondering, like, Okay, what if they were willing
to move Josh Hart in that deal? Or can you get that like if
you remove the number like what's more important New Orleans? The number two pick
or that Minnesota pick? Like can you get just Holiday for one of those
picks and Andrew Wiggins? Like let's remove all under Andrew Wiggins, Let's remove
all of their moving parts. If it's one of those picks and Andrew Wiggins
for Drew Holiday, and there I think there would have to be other money
involved, just because Andrew Wiggins makes so much money. Yeah, that would
actually work out. It's pretty close though. Holidays Holiday is close enough,
I think, yeah, But the Warriors would be saving money in that deal,
So I'm assuming they have to take something back from New Orleans. But
New Orleans isn't really close to the tax they don't really have. They're not
just going to throw in Josh Hart to save money. Maybe it's like they
probably still like Nicole o Milly, so like that would work. Is it
straight up just holiday for one of those picks and Andrew Wiggins. I question
then whether that's enough for New Orleans just because Holiday is so good. Yes,
he's expiring, but that's almost preferable to having three years of Andrew Wiggins
at ninety four point seven million. Well, a lot of things are preferable
to that. Like, you know, New Orleans wasn't one of my teams,
but they're really interesting because the answer, so the question you have to
ask when thinking about that kind of trade is where does New Orleans think it
is, you know, in terms of its growth trajectory. And I mean
obviously that affects any holiday trade because if they think they're ready now, you
know, if they think that late season run, you know, forget the
bubble because that didn't go well. But if they think they're kind of ready
to maybe be the fifth or sixth seed in the West, which is a
pretty big ask to you know, based on how much better the West stands
to be next year. Then I don't know. I think that really they're
sort of where they view themselves in their development, I think matters, and
like, look, this is a little bit hot taky, but to me,
like, I'm pretty sure Zion Williamson's best years are going to come before
he's twenty five, and I think after that, maybe you're in trouble.
So the where their window, the sort of the location of their window might
not be exactly where the age of their best players suggests it is, because
I just don't have a lot of confidence that Zion is going to be a
good late twenties player. So I don't know. Maybe that speaks to just
let's hang on to Holiday and let's see what we got. But it's interesting
you mentioned both of those teams Indian New Orleans because I think half the time
I'm looking at trades that I like from both sides, it almost always involves
Turner going to the Pelicans and Holiday going back to Indiana because I want a
holiday reunion number one. Yeah, I mean they got to resign justin too,
But but also because I think Turner makes a lot of sense next to
Zion. Yeah, he makes a ton of sense there. I mean really,
any stretch big just makes so much sense next to Zion. Yeah,
they should make a play for Abaca too, come to think of it,
Yeah, he would be good. I guess even if you want to go
smaller like millsapp would work there. At this point, just I've even said,
like Chris Bruche and zionis it would be interesting to me. Chris Bruche
is like, yeah, like he's up there for me. The weight is
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book experts. Two more ones that are quick. We've already mentioned one of
them. So if it was Aaron Gordon in number fifteen for number two and
then again the TPE in quotes like we're saying you're acquiring another expiring contract that
you just moved with the number two pick? Are you doing that? You
know which of those two teams is saying no? If? If either of
them, I think New Orleans, I think Orlando does that. If I'm
the Warriors, like, my knee jerk reaction is that's not enough. But
I actually think that might be about as well as they can do realistically.
So I think I think that to me, like if you made me pick,
okay, if you told me the Warriors are trading this pick and the
TPE, what is the most likely outcome? I think it's probably Gordon.
And that's not based on that's just it just has the feel of I think
that makes sense from both sides, and it's sort of disappointing, I think
from the Warrior's perspective because I suspect they're they have bigger ambitions than that but
I think I think I think both would do that, and I think,
you know, when the dust settles, that might just be sort of as
well as they can do. Would you do Does this make it more attractive
or less Andrew Wiggins and number two for Gordon and Terrence Ross? And I'm
not sure if number fifteen would still be involved in that. M I think
that makes I don't know, I don't know. Oh that's weird. Am
I about to say that? Like I don't want to lose Wiggins for Ross?
So that's an interesting tree. So it's Wiggins into for Gordon and Ross
basically, and you're not getting a pick back. I mean, they could
in theory give up number fifteen. But now I'm looking at from Orlando's perspective
of like, well, they are paying Wiggins a contract, right, Yeah,
Orlando's not gonna be like, We're sorry, you're not getting this pick
I don't know. I don't think Orlando does that. If I was Orlando,
I would do that in a heartbeat. I'm not gonna lie. Really
you want Wiggins on your books? Why? Like your fast track to nowhere?
Anyway? Right now? Well, Wiggins is like the conductor of the
fast track. Train to nowhere, like it almost kind of forces you where
it's like, all right, so let Evan fourne but age out of now
like don't either he option and then you just let him leave the following year
or he opts he opts out and you can let him leave now. So
it's like like after this season, there's alway sudden only two more years left
on Andrew Wiggins. This deal, and like in theory, Andrew Wiggins is
like the wing that they've just never really had, like someone who's gonna put
a ton of pressure on defenses, and he could in theory work well with
Vouch. I would at least consider it. I don't think it's a hard
no for me because Aaron Gordon people like think he's not on a value contract.
I think I'm higher on him the consensus at this point, which is
just bizarre, but you have ross. Yes, he's on the declining scale,
but he's at above Emily money through twenty two twenty three. If you
have a chance to get number two, or that's gonna bring you a LaMelo
ball or I guess the problem would be if it's Wiseman that you have at
number two, like they don't with Vujovich and you have Mobamba, You've kem
Birch there, like and even with Jonathan Isaac once he's healthy, maybe that
really sort of drums down the interest of ton for Orlando. But I don't
think it should be a hard no, because I feel like they need to
do something seizemic that kind of points them towards the future and eating Andrew Wiggins's
deal to get the number two pick and then maybe give up two guys who
don't factor in to that long term future. I would think it's at least
like playable. Maybe it's can you get Golden State's twenty twenty one pick as
well? But you're not gonna get the Minnesota pick in at the so,
Orlando was one of my kind of down the list teams, so we may
as well just hit them real quick right now. And it's it's for the
reasons you said. It's that, like, you know, maybe they're fine
with the mediocrity treadmill, chasing the eight seed fast track to nowhere or whatever
you want to call it. But like to me, I think Isaac's latest
injury kind of removes the most likely path out of that for them, because
there was a scenario or Isaac was gonna stay healthy and be an all defensive
first and the second team maybe Defensive Player of the Year candidate for a long
time. And he you could play him at center. You could build a
lot of interesting stuff. You could move each of it. You know,
there was a way out. I think if Isaac had the was you know,
going to reach his peak potential. But I you know, it sucks,
but I think that's just extremely unlikely now. And so now it's to
me, Orlando is just really in a position where, you know, Gordon
is someone they could definitely move. I mean, there are very few teams
to me that need to move up in the draft more than Orlando because I
do think they need to take a home run swing. Like as you just
said, you know, if they could get ball at least, suddenly that's
interesting. Suddenly you know there's a replacement for Isaac and the you know,
faint hope of like a way out of this department. So Orlando, just
because they do feel sort of ripe for a big, you know, overhaul,
I think they're one of the most interesting teams. And like, look,
you know, Terrence Ross, I think is a contract you can trade
Fournier if he opts in, I think you could you know who knows,
you could extend him, you could trade him, you could whatever. I
think you probably will opt in, by the way, and then you might
you might even start thinking about, like what do we how do we get
off Fuchavich's deal? Is anybody interested in that? Could we give him to
the Calves for Drummond and something? I mean, I like, I don't
know, but but the Magic do seem kind of positioned, or at least
they should be positioned to start thinking about, like, we really got to
make some drastic changes here. Yeah, without Isaac for next season. It's
just if you ever thought there was gonna be a peak version of yourself that
could make serious waves in the East, it's just not gonna be there next
year. And so I'd be with you there. The last trade I have
with the Warriors not to segue us from away from the Magic. This is
like the most interesting one to me. Let's say the Spurs are ready to
pivot into the rebuild? Are you doing number two? And I'm just gonna
call it Gorgy Jang or James Johnson, So an expiring contract a number two
for Derek White, Rudy Gay, and I feel like number eleven would need
to be in there as well. So I was hoping you'd say Derek White
because I'm on the Derek White Official Fan Club for sure. If it was
just gonna be Rudy Gay, it was gonna be a hard pass. But
yeah, I think I think if I'm the Warriors, I do that.
If I'm the Spurs, like, I don't, it's weird. I don't
under I don't know if the Spurs like value Derek White as much as a
lot of people do, because it seems to me like he should be a
huge focal point and they should be kind of trying to, you know,
figure out how to maximize him. But but it just sort of feels like
a mess there because they have Lonnie Walker, and they have Dejanta Murray,
who's theoretically your defense first point guard guy of the future. White could be
a combo guy, and then Kelton Johnson suddenly is a thing now too,
so not that he's a point guard, but he's in that. I lump
those four guys all together in my mind. I think White would help the
Warriors a ton. I think Gay. I just he's at a point where
it's like it could just be gone this year, you know it, Like
he's been an incredible story post Achilles and has been so much better than I
thought he would be. But but you know, I think White is the
key there. I think if you're giving me back eleven, I'm doing that
because then I'm gonna go get another of those kind of you know, fungible
three D guys out of this draft. And I'm feeling pretty good because I
got three rotation players out of the out of the deal. And it's also
what you're talking about, though, might make it less worthwhile for the Spurs
because it's like, well it's LaMelo ball. You're going to loop him into
like that whole mishmatch of guards that are there right now, even Anthony Edwards,
where it's like the Spurs they don't really have wings, but like they're
not wanting for them right now, because do you consider Lonnie Walker a wing?
Do not think Murray's like kind of a wing. So it's Keldon Johnson
but not really so Wiseman if he's still there at number two, which I
would assume he would be. If Minnesota is the team using the number one
pick, maybe that's value there because you know, they don't really have anybody
unless they view Yaco Purdle as the center of the future there, and we
know LaMarcus Aldridge is not the center of the future there. So I have
a tough time seeing, you know, is gay and Derek White like to
move up nine spots? Does that make sense for them? Is basically what
it becomes. Yeah, And I think it depends on the thing that I'm
not sure about is what's their What value are they putting on White? You
know, because if if he is a guy that they view as he's a
starter for us for a long time or at least you know, maybe he's
our six man or something, then I don't know if that's worth it to
them. But you know, the other thing is the Spurs will short of
hard to gauge in general, because we have this perception of sort of how
they've operated for twenty some odd years and that's going to change in a year
or two and they're just gonna be another NBA team essentially, So you know,
I don't I don't know if if sort of the same rules are going
to apply, which also, like the Spurs never make trades, so that
would be that would be the first thing I would I would worry about.
But yeah, that's interesting. I hadn't thought of the Spurs as a as
a as a possible trade partner. I don't know. There's a bunch of
deals out there. It's just they're all nothing's bowling you over. If you're
the Warriors. If it had been by now, you know, we would
have probably heard some whispers about it. Yeah, like even trying to come
up with the mega package where you've trade both the Minnesota pick and this pick,
which is like, well, what does that get you? Because when
you're getting to a deal that's so big and you kind of need Andrew Wiggins
in there, and he changes the complexion of the deal and tire highly as
someone who's on a net negative contract. Yeah, I mean, obviously Janice
was was sort of like, I'm sure in terms what they were hoping Wiggins
and you know, the next year's Minnesota first and literally what anything else they
could throw in there. But it's just that's just not going to happen.
I don't think so. And maybe you can entice the Wizards into giving you
Bradley Beale with it would have to be other stuff with those two picks and
Wiggins my whole thing is as good as Bradley Beal is, is he like
the best fit for that roster because their defense is already kind of shaky,
where now you have to wonder if Clay Thompson is going to be better off
guarding bigger wings post a cl Andre just because in theory, like they'll be
slower than the assignments that he's normally used to guarding, and you're not helping
your defense. Wiggins isn't a defender, but he's at least a body you
can imagine moving around the wings. Bial is not that player. And if
he's defending the way that he did this year, which is to say not
at all, that sort of becomes a problem where you have post A post
acl Clay and then Steph and then Bradley Beal, Like what does your defense
look like if Draymond Green isn't playing at defensive player of the Year level?
Right, Well, that's why you need James Wiseman in there to just clean
up everybody's mistakes, right Yeah, but you're not getting Brady Deal and having
James Wiseman Also, James Wiseman will not be cleaning up mistakes he will be
making them. Yes, that's a good point as well. I can't believe
that one slide. So you had the Warriors, which was an overlap,
and then we talked about the Magic briefly. Do you have anything to add
on them? No, I just just that they seem ripe as as I
think we both agree for something to happen because they just yeah, we would
just be rehashing that. I feel like I've been stealing all the teams do
you have? Who? Did you have a number one team that we haven't
really hit yet? Yeah, so you said you didn't have them on your
list, but the Pelicans for me, and I think I think I've probably
maybe just had too much time to think about basketball, like this exact season
that we're sort of in, or at least transition that we're about to make.
And I'm looking at New Orleans and I've been the advocate of like they
should you know, resign, brandon Ingram use their raml Lee, bring back
Derrick favors, like go at it the West, and it's sort of like,
wow, they did not look good when they were in the bubble,
and like I know, there was all these just you know circumstances beyond their
control, and Zion Williamson had like eight different rookie seasons. It felt like
at the same time, I'll put it this way, if you max out
brandon Ingram, that's basically with everyone else that's on your books, without deciding
whether you're going to bring back Derek Favors, without deciding on each one more.
I'm assuming they won't get They'll just get rid of Darry Smiler, Like
that's just the salary cap at this point with the pick number thirteen in there
and now looking ahead, so you're gonna have to pay due holiday in twenty
twenty one. He is the player option. JJ Reddick is coming off the
books then too, like Lonzo Ball is extension eligible, he's gonna need new
contract. Then Josh Hart is going to need a new contract. Then I'm
sort of wondering, like, is there a danger in maxing out Andrew Wiggins
now, because it almost consigned you to competing immediately, And while you mentioned
that Zion Williams is might be shorter than not, I'm still just looking at
it like this roster could all of a sudden be concerned with the luxury attacks
by twenty twenty one, and so they're interesting to me in the sense that
one, will they decide to move Drew Holiday, to move to pivot into
sort of more of a gradual timeline. And two might they consider something that
we're not talking about? And I think most people would be like, oh,
Eli on the ball trade. My whole thing is like, would you
sign and trade Brandon ingram at this point? Like there will be teams,
even the ones with cap space because they know you could match, that might
be open at doing something like what if you can get number six and Cam
Reddish out of Atlanta? And maybe something else too, like is that a
move you're considering, because yeah, Brandon ingram is was an all star level
player last year, but do you count on that moving forward? And too,
what does that just mean for you in the context of the Western Conference
over the next three to four years when you're like, not really sure how
this whole roster meshes together. I, you know, I think that's one,
you know, certainly, that's one way to view. The other way
I would push back on it and frame it this way is the Pelicans kind
of have a lot of good problems because the Holiday thing. You know,
look, they can he's I assume he's gonna opt in for twenty one twenty
two, So you really do have this year? Really, yeah, I
think so, because I think, honestly, I think anybody that has like
over twenty five million that they can lock down, even like I don't think
we're going to be through the financial uncertainty, you know, in twenty one
twenty two. I think I think of player options right now, unless you're
like Jeremy Grant, you know under you know, if you're down under around
the ten million whatever, I think, you know, you can get out
on the market and see what you can do. But if Holiday's option is
twenty seven point one million and he's gonna be ill, I don't have it
in front of me. But I think he's thirty now or twenty nine je
so like, yeah, you could opt out and sign maybe like a four
year, one hundred and ten million dollars deal, but I don't. I
just I don't know. So I'm viewing him more as there's sort of less
urgency to trade him because of the length of his contract, because I'm viewing
it as a two year thing and and and so you have that, you
know, less urgency there. I think Ingram to me, you do max
him out. I think just not just because he was an All Star or
anything like that, but the specific types of gains that he made in his
game this year are just the kinds that are just they seem like, not
fool proof, but they're I think they stick, like the ability to shoot
off the dribble, the ability to add a bunch of volume to your three
point shot, and just at his height, I feel like, you know,
the Tatum comparison is really imperfect. He's not Jason Tatum, but I
think there's some of that in there. So I think you max him out.
You've got Williamson on the rookie deal through twenty three, twenty four,
probably you extend him before that if it looks like he's going to be healthy.
I don't know. So I think at first, if the question is
six and Reddish or Ingram or you know, some permutation of that, no,
I think I want Ingram. I'm gonna lock him down and I'll worry
about moving Holiday, who I think is going to be an asset basically until
the day his contract expires. So I'm just going to figure that out later.
What if Golden State is coming at you with number two, the Minnesota
pick. If I'm getting the met another pick and Andrew Wiggins is deal,
you're getting three picks. And Andrew Wiggins for brandon Ingram. Oh for Ingram.
I thought you were going to talk about Holiday Man. I don't know
you. You just kind of overwhelming with his Warriors trade options. I'm trying
to stay that wasn't that one was just one that's Freman. But I'm saying
like I could even see Atlanta being like, you know, hey, here's
Kevin Hurder cam Reddish that okay, see pick in twenty twenty two, and
then the number the number six pick here, like, let's talk about it
an Ingram sign and trade and then look, the Pelicans still are interesting to
me. I think they keep Ingram. I want to be clear, I
just have more questions about it because of how far away they appear in the
bubble. But if you're gonna pay Ingram and you're gonna keep Holiday, well
then you're still interesting because it's like, well, do you look at like
seeing what you could get for Lonzo Ball not just because of the money,
but maybe to make the roster just a better balance. And then also in
general you're still kind of like tethered to a winnish now window. I would
say, if you're gonna if you're as soon as you max someone out in
my books, like it's with Phoenix, with Devin Booker, like the clock
just starts ticking. Then even if you know they're not an imminent flight risk
because you've just invested that equity in someone, and so can they go out
and make you know a win now is trade? Like does them trying to
enter the Bradley Beal sweepstakes if Washington even makes them available because they have all
those picks from that from that Laker trade makes sense? Are they a team
like a Victory Ladipo probably isn't like the best fit there, but like a
Miles Turner that would be a perfect move. You've already talked about it.
So I think they're interesting both ways because they I feel like they almost have
to pick one just because I feel like we're at the point where we've established,
at least for the most part, that this roster is currently constructed,
is not going to be this quasi contender. Yeah, you know, in
my mind, I kind of and this might just be wishful thinking, but
like you know, when we first started talking about them, I said that,
you know, everything kind of depends on where they think they are,
and in my mind, I just, unrealistically, I kind of want them
to try to just do both, you know, like, let's hold on
to Holiday, let's develop our young guys. If we want to trade ball
for future assets, that's fine, but let's sort of try to nurture the
young guys, keep getting you know, future assets, and keep our vets.
You know, Like I kind of want them to try to do everything
at least for a year or two. But like to me, if you're
trading Ingram, you're also trading Holiday, You're also trading Reddick. You're you
know, because Ingram is an all star who theoretically is just starting his prime,
and if you're going to move him, I think you're just you're sort
of tearing it down again. Even then, they just did that, so
which feels like a little bit too much upheaval for me. But but yeah,
I know, I don't know, I kind of want them to try
to do both. Just kind of do everything, be all things to all
people, be be young and old, be good now in later, like
let's just let's let's just see if that's actually possible. Do you want to
hit me with your next team? So can we talk about Brooklyn? I
think we sort of have to talk about I think you and I whatevery podcasts
are contractually obligated to talk about Brooklyn because we invariably do. That's right,
I think, yeah, So we're probably just going to rehash things we talked
about. So my first bullet point under Brooklyn NETS for my teams is,
quote, just the circus of Kyrie and no experience Nash like that. That
to me puts like everything on the table for them. So the thirds,
the third star pursuit, which I think we've both talked about together and separately,
of I'm not sure that's the best way to go, you know,
trading all these guys that are useful starter slash rotation players on really good contracts
for you know, insert whoever, el who again just keeps looking like he's
not going to be moved. But of course that's exactly what he and Washington
should say to keep his value high. You know, the Joe Harris free
agency. What's he gonna get? He to me? Keeping him to me
is about as important as anything else the NETS could possibly do this offseason.
I just don't know what that's going to cost, and then you just have
overlaying all of this. They really like quietly high stakes of you need to
win now because Kevin Durant is thirty two and he's gonna age better than most
and even with the Achilles injury, I guess there are reports out there of
like he's just looked incredible in workouts and scream talking. Yeah right, nobody's
ever said he looks he looks a little washed. I think we should.
He put on fifteen pounds of muscle in four weeks. Yeah, and he
got the fact he got taller too, but they didn't list it. They're
actually listing him at six seven now. Yeah, right exactly. But that's
kind of a quietly that's a big deal because like as much as we like
to think of the Durant Irving pairing as as a pairing, I mean those
guys are not on the same level. If you know, Durant is like
an all timer, one of the best scorers ever, Like this is not
new information to you. He's like a separate class of basketball player. Kyrie
Irving is a really good offensive player who brings a lot of difficulties like every
literally everywhere else on and off the floor. So if Durant is not uh,
you know, close to what he used to be for very long,
then it sort of almost doesn't matter like what the Nets do, because they're
not going to get this off the ground. But but so those are kind
of the bullet points you could take. You could take any of those and
run with, you know, the Kyrie Steve Nash thing, third Star Persue,
Joe Harris, Katie's age. Like, what interests you most about the
Nets kind of coaching collaborative? The Nets don't have a head coach, it's
a it's a co op. Yeah, that's like a New York thing.
I think I'm most fascinated by the they have to keep Joe Harris. Might
my semi spicy take is that if you're the Knicks, I would rather overpay
Joe Harris than Fred Vanfleet because he's so plug in play that there's yes,
you can overpay for shooters, but like within the context of your roster where
you have these ball handlers who can't shoot, Julius Randall, RJ. Barrett
and then Mitchell Robinson, a big who doesn't really space the floor like just
surround them with outlets of shooting. And Joe Harris is what you know you
wanted it Wayne Ellington to be and he was not. So maybe the Nets
don't value Joe Harris like that because you know, Kyrie, like when he
was talking about his teammates, like Joe Harris wasn't on that list of the
middle of the season, he said that didn't mean anything, and perhaps it
didn't. I'll give him the benefit of the doubt there, but I just
don't view his free agencies an issue for them. If you have to pay
him fifteen million dollars, pay him fifteen million dollars. The Third Star pursuit
is interesting to me because they have at once one of the more interesting under
the radar trade packages out there, but it's also built around players that are
sort of win win Now, when you're looking at Spencer Dinwoody and Carris Lavert
and so like, I don't know if you're giving up both of those guys
in a deal, I don't know how much of an upgrade you're actually getting.
And my hotter take would be, I'm not giving up Carris Lavert in
a deal for Drew Holiday. I'm not giving him up in a deal for
Victor Ladipo, I consider giving him up, definitely for Bradley Beal, But
like that, unless you're getting a top twenty player, certified top twenty,
not Drew Holiday, where in any given season maybe you could envision it.
I'm just not giving up Carris Lavert. I think he just provides more value
to you on that contract. And so if Dinwoody, Alan Picks and then
another salary, Tor and Prince can get you a Drew Holiday, if it
can get you a Victor Ladipo, like yes, I'm looking at that.
Otherwise, though, I think the Nets might be better off standing Pat or
just thinking smaller scale, like do you know who's a great fit in Brooklyn?
Aaron Gordon? Like that would be is there a way to work that
like dim Woody and another salary? Does that get you Aaron Gordon? That's
absolutely perfect for what they need. So I think they should look at moves
like that where maybe you're not necessarily getting a third star, but you get
to keep Caris Lavert. I'm not saying that he's going to be you're a
third star, but after what he did, and he's not the most efficient
player, but he can hit and off the dribble three and he's a really
good passer, and you know you can at least throw him on twos and
some threes defensively and not live to regret it all the time. That like
it matters to me when he's from a team perspective on this what I would
call a value contract three years and fifty two point five million dollars. If
you're concerned about his health, I get it, But are you guaranteeing yourself
much better health with Victor Oladipo. Not necessarily, And then even with true
holiday, like let's say he's not expiring, he just seems like a case
of well, he's gonna opt in and then you have to extend him anyway,
like that's gonna be the situation. So Caras Lavert has shot up in
value to me. So unless you're getting Bradley bal or a player above,
you know, let's say James Harden becomes available and you just throw the kitchen
sink at Houston picks LeVert, Dim Woody, Jared Allen. Yeah, I
don't know if he's actually considers that, and then Brooklyn's defense will be just
a certified disaster in that case. But like, that's the type of deal
that I think he would have to move Karras slavernon at that point, and
I'm interested to see whether the Nets don't view it that way. Kevin Durrett
has said that Karas Slavert can be the Nets his third start, and I
actually think that him and Karros Silvert have a pre existing relationship. I don't
want to put words in his mouth, but I feel like he had mentioned
this and a scrum that I was in, I can't when he was talking
about an injury, So like, maybe that good will actually means something.
But then there's also this urgency in Brooklyn where it's like, well, DeAndre
Jordan very clearly shouldn't have been prioritized over Jared Allen, but that's exactly what
happened once Kenny Atkinson left. And so there's this, and then look at
who was hired as head coach, Like Steve Nash, the brilliant basketball mind,
but he definitely skipped the line. And this seems like it was handpicked
by both Kevin Durant, who's good friends with him, and Kyrie Irving who've
used this as a coaching co op right now, And I don't you know,
I don't have a problem with them, like with Kyrie Irving and Kevin
Grant. If you want to say they're running the show or they just have
this heavy influence like they're the superstars. That's why, like you sign them,
Like if that was part of the deal, that's fine. But when
players take that view, I do feel like they're more shortsighted than not.
And I'm not trying to criticize saying that executives are better, because executives make
bone headed decisions all the time. I could just see a scenario in which
they the nets wind up undervaluing what Karis LeVert actually is to them or what
he can actually net them on the trade market. And the example would be
if you move him for Victor Ladipo. I think it's I think it's a
failed to move. I think that's probably right, and I may or may
not have proposed exactly that in some trade piece that I can't remember, but
a couple so I've said this before. I want to talk more about Oliver
because like every element of him on this team and potentially not being on this
team is really interesting to me. I think what you need if you're going
to be the type of team that the Nets want to be, which is
to say, a legitimate contender. What you need are superstars, and you
also need I've probably said this on this pod before, and I think you
also need a bunch of guys that are way better than the contracts that they
have. So, you know, I think Dimwitty falls in that category.
I think Lavert definitely falls in that category. I think Harris, even if
he's getting fifteen million, might fall in that category. So the idea that
instead of having stars and a bunch of guys out performing the contracts they are
on and providing a much extra surplus value for you, the idea that it's
instead better to have a third superstar who necessarily on the best version of the
Nets will be marginalized because you've got two guys that need the ball and deserve
the ball, and Irving and Durant I think is a mistake. The other
the problem is Lavert kind of falls into that same category because he is absolutely
an on ball guy, and the counter would be, well, Kyrie Irving
never stays healthy and Durant is coming off a catastrophic injury. We don't know
how durable he's going to be so Lavert's gonna be able to sort of maximize
his on ball game. Just fine, that's a good counter. Maybe that's
how it plays out. But I do think it's fair to say that Lavert
is not going to get to be the is probably not going to get to
be the best version of himself on this team, and that other types of
players might provide Brooklyn more value, maybe not necessarily dollar for dollar value,
because Lavert's contract is as you mentioned, is so I mean just enticing.
Any team should want that. But but I think, like, especially if
and this may or may not be the case, there have to be teams
around the league that look at Lavert and kind of see a And I want
to be very careful about this because I'm not drawing this comparison see like a
James Harden leaving. Okay, see kind of situation. He's Lavert is not
hardened. But this this the idea, Yeah, James Harden, nobody's gonna
aggregate me. This is way too convoluted of a point I'm making. But
I think there are teams out there that would have reason to you Lavert as
a guy like we can get this guy the Nets. I think you know,
it's not a The way that he is valuable to us is different than
the way he's valuable to the Nets in a way that benefits us, because
we're gonna take him. We're gonna put the ball in his hands. He's
the top option, and he's gonna get us twenty seven a game and you
know, six assists whatever, Like he's just gonna be our guy. He's
gonna pop, he's gonna finally stay health and lo and behold, we got
an all star making sixteen million a year for the next, you know,
this year and two more and now we're rolling like there have to be teams
out like Orlando should be one of those teams, Like suddenly they have a
guy that actually makes stuff happen offensively, add any number of other teams that
just need a guy to do that. So that, to me, I'm
just arguing against myself because there would be logic in the Nets moving him,
because they could extract a lot of value from a team that views Lavert that
way, and the Nets will not get that kind of production from Lavert.
So I just I cannot wait to see what they you and I honestly my
gut reaction again to circle back is that they should just keep him because he's
such a value on that deal and he's so good and din witty to some
extent in alan same way. But I'm really interesting to see how this plays
out because there is a scenario where he just goes to another team and he's
an All Star and the Nets maybe you know, that's how they get their
third star and it fits better. It's just it's just a totally, uh,
you know, unpredictable kind of set of outcomes laying out there, just
all tied directly to Liver and what the Nets do with them. I'm totally
with you where you could talk yourself just around yourself when discussing the Brooklyn Nets,
like that's where they're at. But I do think they end up doing
something. I don't know how it is. They you don't hire Steve Nash
to be your coach, you know, Like I just that to me is
so on brand of Look how splashy this was, and like there's no bigger
Nash fan than me, Like, I hope it goes well. I don't
think it's gonna go well. But the Nets just seem like this this is
it. They're They're gonna make noise and the way you do that as trading
for a star. So I do I agree. I think they're going to
do something. I do think and I've already mentioned this though, that they
actually like their best trade packages are really good. Like when you look at
Dimwoody and if you want to bet, you know, we talk about you
know, how much how far into the distance are you willing to go with
picks? Like this whole thing is completely combustible, And so if you're taking
a chance on like you get Brooklyn to throw you a loosely protected like twenty
twenty three first round pick, that really just beefs up a deal with Ton
two and you still have Jared Allen, granted you'll have to pay him before
twenty one, twenty two, like and even just Spencer Dimwoody, Yeah,
you can worry about him entering free agency two twenty one, but he's a
fringe All Star in the Eastern Conference. So their best trade package, though,
I feel it could actually get them something special. It's just a matter
of is that someone special going to be available? And if he's not,
are they going to offer close to their best and just settle anyway for the
sake of doing something. Yeah, No, they're they're super interesting. I'm
glad we got our twenty minutes of netstalk. Weren't going to be able to
pull it off. My next team is and I do have some I don't
want to make it seem like we're focusing on all just like the flagship franchises,
but Dallas to me is incredibly interesting because so Brian Winhorst on the jump
mentioned that the Mavericks were expected to be in the front of the line for
Janie, and we can make the joke that it's like, well, you
know, twenty nine other teams are saying the same thing, but like twenty
nine other teams don't have another entrenched, like top five player by that point
who is just so young that you could just contend for championships for roughly forever.
My whole thing is because you have Luca don Chich, You're like,
aren't you obligated to do something now? And I know you're not going to
have cap space unless Tim Hardaway during your opts out, which no one expects
him too. I would think at this point still like you could explore this
is a team when you talk about sign in trades, like this is a
team where it can make sense they have pick number eighteen that they can move
after the fact, you have Seth Curry, like that contract is gold and
Phinny Smith called Delon Wright. I don't think he's a great fit for the
Mavericks. I think he could be a great fit elsewhere. You have him
Hardaway Junior on that expiring deal is fodder and so I'm not saying you'll unload
everything. But like if you can get a Danilo Gallinari via a sign and
trade, or even if Fred van Fleet, if Toronto decides that it wants
to know about face into this, I'll call it gap year because I don't
expect him to rebuild. With Pascal Siakam and O Giannaobi there, like you
can actually do some stuff, but then there's also the pull of well's this
the summer to even do that, because I mentioned Deil Gallinari and Fred van
Fleet, But like after them, who's worth going to sign and trade route
for? There's just not a ton of options. Maybe a Joe Harris if
you could get him. He doesn't really alleviate the ball handling, but he's
just imagine him playing next to the Luca don Chich like just to just imagine
that. So I understand the Mavericks want to wait, but like we've heard
this story before with them when they had Dirk and like it just didn't work
out. They went after Darren Williams. They missed on him the first time.
Dwight Howard they missed on him as well, and they also get a
meeting with you know, they were like tangentially mentioned in one of the lebron
sweepstakes, I believe, and he doesn't end up there. And so they
have been missus historically, and you're just you know, when you're betting against
the field, you're probably not going to get superstar X, Like there are
just a bunch of other teams that are going to be interested in It certainly
helps that if Janness is going to enter free agency, he's probably not going
to be traded. Like he isn't sign the supermats, we know the Bucks
aren't going to deal him, So that helps Dallas's case. Still, Luca
don Chech is great already, like you were nearing a fifty win pace this
season. I know there's the element of will christaus perzinkis remain healthy that works
both ways. It's well, you know, then you should wait. But
then it's like, well, no, you should probably try and get another
number two for Don Chech right now so that he's not carrying as big of
the load, particularly in crunch time. I also subscribe subscribe to the theory
that if you need cap space, you can always figure out a way to
get it. If your honest society, he wants to play for you,
you'll figure out a way to make it happen, like you'll just you'll do
it if he wants to play for you. So I'm not as worried about
coming up there twenty twenty one books. And then here's the other thing.
He what if Yanna signs the Supermax? I don't think. My gut feeling
is that he won't, But that's just a gut feeling. Let's say he
does, though, are you really waiting until twenty twenty one? Because you
know, Kawhi Leonard and Paul George have player options and Lebron has a player
option, it becomes a lot less intriguing to me that summer. If Yannas
signs his Supermax, or doesn't look like he's leaving Milwaukee for that matter,
and so I feel like they're not necessarily obligated. But they're a team that
could end up making this all in ish play that you wouldn't have expected them
to make because the assumption is that they're trying to remain flexible for twenty twenty
one. So I'm so glad you mentioned the because nobody's talked about this.
And so the Heat are one of the teams, Dallas is another. Anytime
we've heard it for months, Oh, such and such team doesn't want to
do anything to tie up long term money because they're really focused on twenty twenty
one and that free agent class, and by that free agent class, there
are other free there's it's a great year, but it's jan right, like
the Heat want Yannis. Toronto wants the honest. Dallas wants the honest.
That's what that's That's why they're, you know, theoretically not going to tie
up long term money. But exactly as you said, if if a player
of that level and really like Jannis is going to decide where he plays,
it's not like some team that he doesn't want to go to is gonna trade
for you know, It's like that's just not how it works at that level.
So when he says, hey, I want to come play in Dallas,
no problem. We'll do whatever we can easy. We can move this
money, no problem. We can attach a bunch of picks because they're not
gonna be worth shit anyway, because we're gonna be so awesome because we have
Jannis and Luca. But right, like, it's so easy to move that
money. So this idea that we're, oh, we're gonna keep the powder
dry, we're gonna no, no. No. If if you're keeping the
powder dry for just a general free agency pursuit, like we want to sign
you know, a couple starters or whatever, like, that's fine. But
if it's there's this one guy and we think we have a shot at signing
him, like there's no, it's totally different situation. So yeah, I
agree they don't need to avoid signing guys because if it comes down to it,
they can just do whatever they need to to get rid of them and
signing on this. But with that said, I do think that Dallas is
actually they do have all those like all those contracts you mentioned are so team
friendly, and I do think that their position to you know, be at
least as good as they were this year, which is to say, like
kind of not for sure contenders, but I mean they're close and if you
probably kind of feel like they're between point five and one point five players away,
if that makes any sense, which is pretty good close. They're really
close, and so that might just be, you know, I don't know,
somebody gets a couple of guys get a little bit better, and suddenly
you've made up that point five to one point five player gap and you get
a little lucky and you know another can you know they could be in the
conference finals if they don't do anything like that wouldn't be remotely surprising next year,
So you know, just going out willie nilly and just you know,
let's you know, Lucas great Now, we gotta we gotta maximize this roster.
I do think you have to at least balance that against let's make sure
we're keeping you know, the first thing, the first thing here, which
is getting honest. And like you said, they probably aren't going to get
him just because you always take the field, especially when Dallas is involved,
because their history is just they just don't seem to measure up to other teams
in free agency. But yeah, I'm glad you made that point. That
was something I was going to bring up this idea of let's let's keep the
books clear, because that, just to me is totally just misses the point
of like how big name players actually end up on teams that they want to
play for. And I will say, I like the idea of Fred van
Fleet in Dallas a great deal just because he doesn't hurt your defense. If
anything, he's going to help it where Dallas not gonna help you get stopped,
even though I think that he could be exactly what you need as well.
But if you can work if Toronto is just like, well, we
don't want to pay van Fleet, you know, between eighteen and twenty three
million dollars a year, like whatever ends up being like there are some signing
trade scenarios there, and he feels like he would be the perfect fit for
Dallas, and it's looked, like you said, at this level, I
don't think with Jannie, you don't need to worry about having caps based in
an event, you'll figure out a way to get it if he wants to
play for your team, can we I want to do one more? I
don't know if you know not the flagship teams like this is this is what
I wanted to get to if you are you done? Are you done on
Dallas? You got anything else on them? No? Nothing else on them?
So let's talk about the Nuggets. And so for me like looking at
trades and like what, you know, what where could Oladipo wind up or
where could Drew holiday or where could Bill end up to? Like you just
you know, look and I know that I think it was today or yesterday
there was a report about the Nuggets. Have said like, don't even ask
about Michael Porter Junior, like off the table, not just no way,
which again same thing with the Wizards and Bill like of course you say that
like that, that's that's how you keep a player's value high, and you
make teams make dumber offers than they otherwise would. But you just have Porter
Junior and the Gary Harris contract and some filler and like suddenly Denver is in
play for absolutely anybody. You know that it is possibly going to be moved,
and basically if you're replacing Gary Harris, who just you know, seemed
like a huge value when he signed that contract a few years ago and then
was borderline unplayable for like the last year plus of it, partly because of
injury, but like if you upgrade Gary Harris in that rotation with someone like
the best version of Oladipot or Holiday or Beal, Like, now we're really
talking about something with Nuggets And I get it that Porter Jr. Is is
kind of a lottery ticket and looked so good. But like if if this
is going to get you over the top right now, which maybe those guys
would, Denver to me is kind of this sneaky, sensible landing spot for
like almost any of these guards and wings that could potentially be on offer.
And you know that's to say nothing of the Jeremy Grant player option situation,
Paul Millsap's future with the team or non future You're depending on you know what
shakes out there. But Denver I think has a lot has a potentially very
interesting offseason depending on how aggressive it wants to get. Yeah, I'm with
you. I'm just I give up MPJ if it's for Beal, I don't
give him up for Ola Depot. I'm on the fence about Drue Holiday,
Like can you get it feels like you would need to get like Josh hardback
in that deal as well for me, But it's also complicated by the fact
that Gary Harris is a great salary filler, but he's not really on his
contract isn't considered positive value anymore. And if you're Denver, you don't have
like these other top notch picks to just throw in there, or even prospects
like yeah, bow bowl is kind of novel at this point, that's fine,
but your your own future picks are not going to be worth all that
much to other teams. And so it feels like if you want to acquire
that swing piece, you almost have to include MPJ because I'm like trying to
rack my brain for you know, what is Gary Harris and just what are
going to end up being low to mid end of picks, Like where as
that as a framework, like where does that get you? Does it?
Maybe it's enough to get your old which case I would rather do that,
and then you could still hang on to MPJ. But if you want to
make the leap that it's going to take to keep pace with the Lakers and
the Clippers, if you want to throw the rockets in their fine, or
even just to hold fend off the up and comers like the Pelicans, maybe
like the Suns. It's something that You're absolutely gonna have to consider. And
look, teams were worried about his injury history before he was drafted, and
maybe you have to read into the fact that he was talking about or hinting
at, even a little bit in the playoffs not getting enough shots at some
point. And then you also just don't have necessarily the Maybe during the regular
season you could play him more. You definitely could, but do you have
the stomach for his learning curve on defense? They are like Knights where it
looks like he's going to be a pretty good help defender, and then there
are Knights where he just looks lost. I know that's part of the youngster
experience. But if you're Denver and you don't have like you just don't have
lockdown defense to begin with, and you could lose Paul millsap, you could
in theory lose Jeremy Grant this offseason and won't necessarily get easier to navigate the
minutes with MPJA on the floor either. Yeah, that's so I think any
deal depends on so obviously, I think this might sound crazy like three years
from now if he's made two All Star Games and has a scoring title by
then, But like I think you might be selling You're you're selling high on
Porter Junior because of the breakout in the bubble and you're you're no, no
Gary Harris deal happened, Like MPJ is the deal. Like that's that's why
a team, you know, with a veteran that it's looking to move would
do would even consider this, And they'd have to believe that this guy is
going to be our leading scorer or at the very least like an awesome number
two option that will a stay healthy and b continue to be like mostly not
terrible on defense. You know, the majority of the time, I do
think you know, I actually so, I think we agree that Beal is
just you know, the average thirty a game. He's kind of a He's
probably at the top of the list of guys you could get. But if
you do bring Grant back and you have Drew Holiday, that's forty percent of
you're starting five. That's like pretty nasty defense. Pibly and and I think,
you know, depending on you know, if you have Tory Craig in
there, who actually I think he's also a free agent, so you know,
not exactly high on the list of fascinating Denver options, but you know,
you can get away with having to sort of change your schemes every other
quarter to to make sure Yokich isn't getting you know, you know, use
the wrong way in a playoff series. I you know, so to me
if I don't know if the Pelicans would have any interest, but if you're
just starting of Porter Junior Harris and maybe you have to throw in one of
their unimpressive picks for Holiday. I mean, you know, maybe Porter Junior
and and Ingram are a little like there's some overlap there, but you know
that's a that's a starting point at least for me, and I think Holiday
makes a ton of sense, just specifically him in Denver. And look,
the upside of selling high on MPJA because of what he did in the bubble
is maybe you don't have to include that extra asset to do it where it's
just I think Haas and Porter Junior get you there financially for Drew Holiday.
If it doesn't, you know, you have you're not gonna want to give
up Monte Morris in that deal, but you actually they do not have just
like these expendable contracts, you don't want to give up Will Barton kata Bag's
job would be you know, not gas that you can throw them in there,
so like that maybe that's the that's one of the benefits is that you
don't have to include all this other stuff with MPJ, Like he's just the
framework. I will say, though, if you get rid of Gary Harris,
like I don't know that Drew Holiday is probably not worse equipped to defend
wings. Maybe he's a little bit better, but like I don't you're not.
Like that's where you get into this what you're giving up, like how
much you're actually replacing, Like, yeah, you get more shot creation from
Drew Holiday, but like you've lost Gary Harris's defense as well. It feels
like you've almost rolled the functionality of MPJ and Gary Harris into one player,
and I don't know how much that actually does for you, which is why
Denver's in in such a weird spot. It feels like it needs to look
for an opportunity to where they don't have to play their best chips at once,
if that makes any sense. Yeah, No, I think I just
would say I think Holiday isn't I would do it upgrade on On Harris defensively,
specifically, I think you can use Holiday to guard you know, you
look when when in in the you know, he guards Kevin Durant like that,
like he not. You know, that's partly because of the Pelicans just
didn't have a better option. But Holiday, I think you can get away
with on a lot of you know all but the biggest wings I think would
be would be doable for him and you know, maybe more switchable even than
Harris if you're having him chased around small guys. But but yeah, no,
I don't know that. That's that's my my Denver spiel. Which I
think is also helpful because it's another non you know, coastal, you know,
huge market team. So I had two non huge market teams next to
each other because it feels like they're the even though they're not the same team,
but they're in different conferences and it feels like they're in the same situation.
I've Atlanta and Phoenix because it's like Atlanta's record doesn't show it. They
weren't in the bubble, the have that magical ato run like Phoenix did.
Please feel like two teams that are the ones that are going to be looking
to make the biggest leaps in their conferences. Among the lottery teams, or
the clearly what you might have considered rebuilding teams, or the clearly non playoff
teams entering last season. And I'll start with Atlanta just they have the most
cap space in the league. They can easily get the forty plus million.
I know this isn't the summer to spend it, but like if you come
out of this and you've you know, maybe you've drummed up the price on
like some restricted free agents, but like if you can get a Joe Harris
out of this offseason they were the worst three point shooting team in the league
last year, that ends up being just an absolutely huge deal. Can you
even get in the mix for like a you know, a Marcus Morris.
Can you get them out of LA because of the money you have? Like
there are things that they could do or maybe they're giving out these huge one
year deals that players might even want to accept. And then the other thing
kind of staring them in the face is that they're primed to make a trade
if they want. They have the cap space to those lopsided deals. They
also have Dwayne Deadman's salary if you want to get into salary matching. John
Collins is extension eligible you traded for Clint Capella. Already those two fit on
offense, but I feel like there's overlap on defense, just in the sense
of where you might want to hide Collins in certain instances. So are you
willing to move Collins? And you have the number six pick, you have
the OKAYC twenty twenty two pick, you have your future picks, you have
DeAndre Hunter, you have Kevin Herder, you have Cam Reddish. Like they
could do some things like where you spend a ton of money in free agency
and then just turn around and trade for a marquish name as well. And
I'm not saying they're gonna go out there and get Bravy Peal. That would
be you know, that's not really gonna help their defense. But they're not
talked about as a Drew holiday destination, and he would be absolutely perfect for
them. Maybe they're one of the teams that's willing to buy medium will say,
I'm Victor Oladipo. He absolutely works there. So I just feel like
they're a team that's set up to do some stuff. I don't know what
it is, but if someone's going to make a splash in free agency,
they're like sort of it For me, I'm like the non sign and trade
splash, I'll say, just because they have so much cap space, and
I'm like Charlotte unlike Detroit, unlike even New York. I feel like Atlanta
has the incentive or is at least looking to win now more so than people
are really talking about. Whether that's within reach is a different story, but
I feel like that's their mindset, and then you could of course throw Miami
in there. But I like view them as a non cap space team at
this point because I just assume that they're going to try and float these bloated
one year deals toward Draggit and Jay Crowder. Yeah, no, I agree.
I think I totally agree lumping them and the Suns together. But it's
it's kind of shitty timing for the Hawks because they are I think, I
think it's pretty clear that they're going to try to make the playoffs this year,
and they, like in a vacuum, have the room and have the
assets to do. Like Will Dwayne Deadman is essentially an expiring contract because he's
partially guaranteed on twenty one twenty two salary. That's thirteen million you could use
to not that they have to do this because they have all that cap space
to take in lopsided trades. But like they even have that, they even
have that salary to throw out there to another team. It's just like,
I don't see who in you know, free agency specifically that they could realistically
get that would you know, make make it sort of worth their while to
burn through all these assets and flexibility. So I what you said about a
bunch of one year deals where you just overpay guys, I think that actually,
which is weird to think about because the Hawks are I think of them
as a young team still, like they're really in position to do that.
And actually, as I think about it more now, there might be a
market for a lot of guys that you know Atlanta. You know, going
to Atlanta is not the same as well, I'm just gonna take the Knicks
cap space, or you know, I'm gonna sign there. I'm gonna you
know, Charlotte or or Detroit or whatever, you know, all these other
teams that have a little bit to spend. Atlanta, and I think,
you know, is probably regarded fairly highly among NBA players as like a decent
place to be and they're going to try to make the playoffs. They have
Trey Young, that's interesting. Clint Capella adds, like stability in the middle,
Collins can play. They might be in a good spot to just spend
hopefully not lock it up for next year, even though we just spend a
bunch of time talking about like don't try to keep your powder dry, because
that's not a thing. But I think they're in a situation where it's almost
unfortunate that they have all these avenues to add talent in this particular off season
because because the talent just like is in shorter supply, and it typically is.
But yeah, they're they're pretty interesting. I will be curious to see
if my gut says that they they just aren't going to be able to go
sign like Van Vleet doesn't make sense, really, I don't think, or
maybe he does. I don't know. I think he does. I mean,
you're small on the back court then, but he's definitely ball handling relief
from Trey Young. But we've seen him play alongside Kyle Lowry, who's clearly
a better defender, but like he can he can guard either the one or
the two. Yeah, I think you know, it's funny, like Phoenix
is always the hey, you know who, you know, you know where,
like everybody from Van Leaked to like Chris Paul. It's like, you
know who you know would be a good spot for him, Phoenix. It's
actually kind of true of Atlanta too. It's they really are very much linked
those two. Atlanta could basically take Chris Paul in the cap space to write
if they want to. I mean that makes less than zero sense for them,
but like that, they could definitely do that. Yeah, I don't
know. The Sun's to pivot a little bit. I think just like the
Hawks, you know, and especially with this sort of fuel now from the
bubble performance, you know, I they could really get some interesting stuff done
with Kelly Uberio's contract if they wanted to throw him in. I think,
what do they have the tenth pick and they have some cap space, could
get more if they renounced their holds on I think it's Banes and Sarich both,
so they have a lot of avenues too. And you know, I
wonder, what do you think, all things being equal, if you're a
free agent and either the Sons or the Hawks come to you and say,
like here's this balloon deal or that's probably much less possible for the Suns than
the Hawks. But where are you? Where are you more interested in playing
of those two teams if you're a free agent. I think Atlanta just because
there's a clearer path to playoffs for them, and they might even be the
clearly inferior team to Phoenix. But the West is just I mean, who
are you bumping? From the playoff picture that made it this year? Maybe
we'll assume okay, see, but after that, who are you bumping?
And that's it? You still have you know, san Antonio might still be
there, but more importantly, there's gonna be Portland and New Orleans are going
to be right there on top of Phoenix. Then Golden State is coming back
as well in Memphis. I mean, you know that's a possibility they're going
to be there or potentially a little bit better too. I actually think they're
going to be worse. I think they were smart in the sense. I'm
not sure how the Justice Swinsel trades will pan out, but I liked it.
They kind of got rid of their cap space in that way because it
prevents them from reading too much into the season. I think that they're going
to find their further away than they're supposed to be, and maybe I'll just
be clearly wrong. Perhaps Brandon Clark and jam Jackson Junior and John Moran are
just monstrous, but they seem to be missing like two to three big pieces
for me to view them as this major threat in the Western Conference. Well,
and maybe a situation too where they actually get better but it doesn't show
because all the other teams around them got so much better too, and they,
you know, they end up looking worse. I feel like that happens.
And always there's always a team like that every year that you know got
better but you couldn't tell, you know, yeah, that's true. Really
quickly friendly you go the other team that I had on my list. I'm
not sure if you had any other teams. There was Toronto as well,
just because we kind of talked about this already, But you have Abaca Gussol
and Chris Bouche, my guy Chris. They're free agents, and then fred
Man fleets to free agent as well, and it's like they were just one
win away from the Eastern Conference finals. I could see their off season going
in so many different directions where it's, hey, let's try and balloon payment
these guys. For a year and just run it back. Do we keep
only one of those three? Two of those three, none of those three?
What happens if you keep none of those three? Like, are you
then are you looking at offers for Kyle Lowry? You have cataspace? Then
are you looking to spend it on anyone? Who are you going to spend
it on in this office season? If you bring everybody back like well,
you still might have access to your mid level exception. Who are you going
to use that on? But wait, you want to conserve twenty twenty one
cast space as well? Is that going to prevent you from adding anybody?
And they're not really set up to make any big buy now trades, I
would say, because you would have to give up an anobi and I guess
future picks, and then you're just not stocked with salary fadder outside of Norman
Powell, which the sheer number of free agents they have, and the breath
of different ways in which their offseason could play out. It really just intrigues
me and a lot of people when they talk about Kyle Lowry, they assume
it was the same thing last summer. Everyone's not everyone, but there were
a ton of people that thought the Raptors weren't going to go for it,
and they just still feel like a team to me that regardless of what happens
with their free agents, that they're still going to try to go for it
next season. Yeah, I think that. I think what is probably gonna
happen is they're going to kind of tow the line. I think my gut
is that Van Vleet will be back. I think they'll pay, you know,
pay what it takes to keep him. It sounds like Gasol's going to
be gone, but I don't know how much that actually matters, just based
on how he looked towards the end for them, like, you know,
pretty close to unplayable if he's not going to be making perimeter shots, and
he wasn't. I think Abaka is actually maybe the most telltale piece and all
that, because if they bring him back on I don't know what the number
would be, but if it's for more than if it's say like a three
year deal, then I think they're just going to kind of let's let's organically
let's keep who we've got, let's organically ride this out, and then maybe
as soon as Lowry's deal is up in a year, it'll be Siakam and
Annobe and van Fleet just kind of transition into the sort of next core of
this team, even though to a large extent they sort of already are.
But but and then they'll just kind of diminish the roles of the aging guys
and just kind of it'll be sort of a natural transition. But I do
think there's a possibility that, you know, they're going to look at this
and say, well, we got Siakam, we got him locked in.
Annonobi, I think is a big timekeeper. Van Fleet is there, but
everybody else, you know, maybe it's time to start looking at how we
can get on the timeline of those other three guys and not not the van
Fleet or Sakam are particularly young, but they're certainly younger than you know,
the Ibaka Lowry Gasol Corps. So I don't think I'm going to keep coming
back to like, man, could you imagine Kyle Lowery on some other like
what he could do, just like how much he would help. But but
I think it's gonna be like a gentle transition. I think that'll take a
couple of years, and before you know, you'll you'll wake up in twenty
twenty two, and it'll just be the young guys, and you know,
everybody else will kind of just have naturally gone gone away. I think I'm
kind of with you. The actual final thing I was gonna say when we
were talking about the Suns is do you see if they go to the lengths
to create cap space, like who makes sense for them? I know you
kind of mentioned Fred van Fleet, but I think if you have Rubio and
Booker already on your books, I don't know how much sense that actually makes.
And then, like I know, Jeremy Grant's been popular, I guess
I have a tough time believing that Jeremy Grant's gonna leave Denver just they give
up the first round pick, they get him, and he's the guy they
used to defend Kauai and Lebron and they don't have anyone to replace that.
And so this is, you know, you talk about Atlanta in a way,
this is the offseason for a team like them to have all these tools
because a lot of other teams don't. But then when you look at the
pool of town available, it's not and Phoenix is sort of in this a
similar boat. I tell I agree, I would say the same thing.
I think Van Bleet is the obvious one, and I think you would have
to assume that Rubio would they would move Rubio somehow. I'm not really sure
where Rubio fits or makes sense. I think he makes a lot of sense,
and Phoenix honestly, but Van but Van Bleet, you know, it
would be I think an upgrade. I don't know. I think to me,
one of the more likely things is they use Ubre and that tenth pick
and you know, see if they could hit the lottery and you know,
now you got a booker and some unlikely from this draft anyway, other cornerstone.
I think that's that's a possibility. But yeah, there their space.
You know, we talked about like they're definitely gonna have it, but there
is a case to be made. You just bring Bins and Starge back and
you startically with the way Sarge played off the bench in the bubble. Yeah,
yeah, I think I think maybe you just go that route and and
if you know, but if van Fleet, if he's you know, saying
hey, I want to come, then I think you reevaluate. But but
yeah, the same as Atlanta, like they're positioned well relative to the rest
of the league, except that, like, there's just not enough talent out
there that makes a lot of sense for them. Do you do Kelly Uber
Junior and number ten for Aaron Gordon and number fifteen? How much better is
Aaron Gordon than Kelly Yubray? Like, I mean a little bit. I
think there are some people that argue he might be a downgrade from them,
But I like what Gordon does. Defensively, you'd be banking on because you
have Eaten there and Rubio. There is Gordon going to hit enough of his
rees for it to be a fit. But I also feel like you could
say the same thing about Kellybridge Jr. A little bit, and Gordon can
give you some backup minutes of the five when Eaton's not on the court.
I actually really like I've been a very big proponent of I think that Gordon
would be a great fit in Phoenix, and that's been met with from many
people with disdain. So I will say, no, I don't. I
have no disdain for that. I just feel like, I know, I
think you know what. I think Gordon is a significantly better player than Ubre.
He's different, and I think what you're saying is like you need the
right version of Gordon who is kind of doing less, trying to be like
an on ball scoring type of threat, which if you have Devin Booker on
your team, I don't think I think it'd be and Rubio two even like
he really just hasn't played with these h You know there's boot who's your number
one option, but he hasn't played with a wing or even a guard who
really commands the floor. Mark l Foltz might be the closest he's come,
or Evan Fournier like one of those two. Yeah, so like he hasn't.
They've almost they've tried to groove him as a wing. I feel like
out of necessity and where in Phoenix they don't need him to be that that
type of player. And looked the passing that he showed this year in Orlando,
like, yeah, that could be a help. But I really,
for some reason, just looking at what he can do defensively, he shot
a little bit better than his catch and shoot threes toward the on the latter
half of this year, I just feel like Phoenix could end up being a
really good fit for him. And I think even if you think Kelly Bride
Jr. Is better right now, which is fine. I've Gordon would be
the higher upside play for me just because of what he does for the Suns
defensively compared to Kelly Bray. If you looked at like the Google analytics of
players mentioned in trade speculation, would Aaron Gordon be Like, he's probably behind
Bill and Holiday and Oladipo now, but I think Gordon's the top five.
I think every team is going to be, like, you know, they
could talk themselves into him, like being the missing piece or at least like
the starter that really fills a bunch of needs. I feel like he fits
almost anywhere, especially because his salary is very reasonable, right, but he's
also like the level of divisive that Bravey Beal definitely isn't. And maybe Aladipo's
there like you still, oh, we know he's an all star level player.
You don't know that about Gordon. And then there are some people who
might say, you know, they're at the two sides of defense, Oh,
two years and thirty four point five million dollars on a declining scale,
like that's fantastic, And then other people are like, oh, two years
and thirty four point five million dollars for someone who might not be a top
seventy five player in any given season, Is that is that really worth it?
And so there's like that element of division there that doesn't necessarily exist for
many of the other most popular trade speculation targets. I have one last,
one last question on one team we haven't talked about at all, and you
don't need to give a long, serious answer, But are the Rockets gonna
blow everything up and just like completely destroy this team and trade James Harden and
try to trade Russell Westbrook and just you know, strip it down. Like
there's a non zero chance that happens, right, Not not likely, but
like there's a scenario where like Mike D'Antoni doesn't walk and Darryl Moray doesn't walk
if they've been given assurances that we're going to spend continue to spend way into
the tax and keep building a winner and keep being creative and trying to build
this roster out, right, Like I feel like it's going to happen,
but not until next season unless things just combust by the trade deadline and then
James Harden and Russell Westbrook both just won out because I just I don't know
what the pathway to them actually blowing it up is like you can move Tucker,
you can move Covington, and you could definitely move Harden. I guess
that concept who's blowing it up, But I don't know if you could move
Russ and if he's healthy, Like that's the pathway to mediocrity in the West
and for what it's worth for tilm me for ta set on CNBC the day
that we're recording this, There's no reason to blow up our roster. This
is still our window the next couple of years. James and Russell are in
their early thirties. We're not blowing up anything. We plan on contending.
We're going to do whatever we have to to win. We can now cut
to them miraculously missing the luxury tax by like thirty seven cents or something exactly.
You know what I value more than the owner who's duck the tacks.
Like from the second he took the job, is Darryl Moray being like fuck
this? Yeah? I know, I know he says that it was to
spend more time with his family. I and there might have been the like
the the Hong Kong element to this where I really do believe this probably had
to be a tough year for him just finding out like the response of the
MBA, and then yet knowing he cost his boss in the league all that
money for effectively saying the right thing, which is just such a weird thing
to think about. At the same time, it's like, from the moment
that Russell Westbrook trade was made, something just felt askew. And here's a
trade that's not a Daryl Morey trade, No way, no none, and
so it's in. And even if you think that he eventually would have made
the Clink Cappella trade, like that's a different conversation. Where do you think
the Rockets would have eventually gotten a microball if if Russell Westbrook wasn't there?
I honestly don't know. But like that, just the E three and Westbrook
decision, like that didn't feel like more at all. And from that moment,
unless it was just that pairing Westbrook and hard was spectacular beyond expectation,
it sort of felt like the infrastructure in Houston was the days they were numbered.
And I think even with the Mike y Antoni negotiation, with which is
no to all season, that he wasn't going to be back. Essentially,
I don't know what that says that you lost two of the primary I don't
want to say architects of your team, but like the forefathers of the way
that you were wanting to play, Like this team was built in their image
before this season, and now they're both just gone, And so I wouldn't
rule anything out. I just think that the rock I think till Fortea probably
thinks he's the smartest guy in the room and that they're going to at least
try and get by a season before they make that decision. Again. The
caveat would be does James Harden get frustrated at all? And I don't know
if he can or will because he had to be one of the proponents of
that Russell Westbrook trade. I don't think that gets done. It doesn't get
done if it's just you know, for Tea saying that Chris Paul's contract is
one of the worst he's ever seen, which is just look, you don't
have to light that Chris Paul contract, but that is objectively dumb. Yeah.
No, I think a couple of things just giving up, you know,
if it was the cost of getting Westbrook, fine, But I do
suspect that Sam Presty, much like he did with the Paul George situation,
probably knew that Harden was like, hey, you gotta go get Russ full
stop, and Presty's like, oh, interesting, I'm gonna extract a bunch
of extra picks out of this. I think that anytime a GM is trading
picks that are like significant assets a little ways down the line, like Houston
did, it's always just it's so easy to think like, well, he
doesn't care, he's not going to be there, right, Like I think,
you know, it's just a different way of saying. What you said
is that the writing I think was on the wall and now it's you know,
it's just nothing remotely surprising. So I do think that when you put
it all together, you've got Westbrook, who's contract is already terrible and we'll
just only get worse and age, and an owner who does not want to
pay the tax, and a highly respective coaching executive that walk I have,
Like, I just think that the elements for a very bleak future are in
place. And I think you're probably right that you've got hardened. You know,
still, I think fair to say in his prime or close enough to
it as to make no difference that the nuclear explosion may not be this season,
but like it's coming. Harden is not going to end his career in
Houston. I don't think, you know, that's gonna come to an end
at some point. It'll probably be as part of a broader, you know,
just total teardown, which there's no other way. Scenarios like this don't
end any other way when you've got these massive contracts and a bunch of unrest
in the front office, and you know that type of thing. So unrest
is the wrong word, but you get what I mean. Yeah, Look,
let's not forget about the Eric Gordon extension either four years seventy five point
six million, only three years and fifty four point seven million are guaranteed.
But that was did not look like the best decision at the time either for
the team's long term future, and it just gave off the vibes of oh
they did that. They threw away all these first round picks. I don't
think Moray is planning on being there by twenty twenty two. And lo and
behold, here we are. Grant. This was a fantastic nearly two hours
of basketball discussion. Thank you for giving me so much of your time.
I kept you for roughly double the amount of time that I thought I was
going to so the normal amount of time. I guess we could call it.
Everyone, please remember to not only rate, review and subscribe to us
on iTunes and wherever else you get your podcast if you haven't already, but
also to follow Grant on Twitter at GT Underscore Hugh's Grant. Thank you so
much again for doing this, and as always, you can rest assured that
I will be pestering you again in the not so distant future. Looking forward
to it. Sugar Ray, Leonard, Roberto Duran, Marvelous, Marvin Hagler,
and Thomas Hearns legends whose four way rivalry define one of the greatest errors
in boxing history, relive their decade of dominance in the new Showtime Sports documentary
The Kings, a four part series premiering Sunday, June sixth, only on Showtime