Welcome to the nonprofits. Coming out publicly can be stressful, terrifying, an
even dangerous event in the life of someone that's a member of the LGBTQ community,
especially for someone that is deeply religious. Our final story this week is
about a man that did exactly that. Caer Griffin tell us what happened sure.
This article is about a transman, Christian Matson, coming out publicly as
trans while occupying a position as a hermit in the Catholic Diocese of Lexington,
which would make him possibly the first openly transperson in a Catholic vocation. And
the article describes a hermit in case you're wondering, as a lay person regardless
of gender, who makes vows of obedience, poverty and chastity directly to a
diocesan bishop and lives a largely solitary life of prayer. So Matson, who
had revealed it he was a transman to church leadership but was not out publicly,
had trouble obtaining a post as a hermit, but eventually did find a
bishop in twenty twenty who would accept him on the grounds that there's no pursuit
of priesthood or engagement in Szachri Mental Ministry and because the hermit is a relatively
quiet and secluded type of vocation. This year, however, Matson decided to
come out publicly because of the Catholic Church's unscientific and harmful statements about trans people,
as well as efforts to retail trans writes and some of his own conversations
with trans and non binary people in the church who felt that they were rejected
by the church, and Matson believes that Catholics need to deal with the fact
that trans people are in fact in the church. All right, Kara,
Them's are the facts. Now, what's your take on it? Okay?
So I find this article mainly just sad. It's sad that this is a
situation that trans people who practice Catholicism and many other faiths have to face,
and that this is a thing that even had to happen. I mean,
it's an obvious case of discrimination that wouldn't be tolerated in an organization that is
bound by even the most basic non discrimination policy. But of course that's not
what we're dealing with here. And the justifications that we heard from the article
for why even why Matson was finally allowed to be accepted into this position as
a hermit are pretty demeaning in my opinion. It said that it was allowed
because he would be quiet and secluded and not doing any kind of priestly ministry,
which to me is basically just implying that, well, he won't be
able to corrupt anybody else by interacting with them or being seen or heard,
So as long as he's just over here, maybe it's okay. And to
me that's giving like some real quasi moto vibes. And it's really clear,
who's, you know, being ugly in this situation. It's the people that
are treating people this way. And you know, there is an element of
a win to the story in that Matson is finally able to be open about
his identity and he's doing so publicly in a way that he is intending to
use to kind of push the church to stop harming and demonizing trans people and
instead acknowledge their existence and value. And that's great. It's a courageous act.
It's one that put his position in jeopardy, and I'm sure came at
great personal distress, but it shouldn't have been necessary. So it's hard to
feel like it's a feel good story, because this isn't a situation we should
be in. Definitely, definitely, Jason, can you give us some more
of the details of what Mattson did and maybe even why did he do it?
Well? Yeah, So, like Matson felt really called to minister to
people, you know, working in the arts, and he ended up seeking
the advice of a canon lawyer. So somebody within the church in light of
a two thousand declaration for the Vatican that people who have undergone quote sex change
aren't eligible to quote mary be ordained to the priestuit or intro religious life.
The lawyer was the one who suggested Mattson explore the role of the diocesan hermit
as a lay person, you know, regardless of gender, who makes bows
of obedience, poverty and chastity directly to a diocesan bishop and lives a largely
solitary life of prayer. Now, I think what k was talking about.
He became increasingly alarmed both by the efforts to demonize trans people and curtail the
rights in the state house across the US, and by the Catholic Church's public
statements on trans people. So while he was kind of throwing some fucking scraps
and saying hey, sure, yeah, fuck off, leave me alone.
Just sure, yeah, yeah, you're Gara hermit, go and hide from
everybody. Yeah, I go. It's it's I can't help but echo the
feelings of care. I just say that. It's I'm not sure how much
of a win it is. It's it's yeah, right site. It's like
he's going through all this effort to embrace this the church, that he loves,
this, this community, and they're just kind of like, yeah,
like you said, like toss and scraps. I mean, is so do
you think that the church was embracing him in any way whatsoever? To see
this is just so troubling on so many levels, right, Like I problem,
so I answered what you asked. This is Look, the fact that
this man's desire to serve an already problematic organization is really difficult for me to
understand. You know. And when you and like you said, when when
you showed that desire to serve the first barrier was pure bigotry, right,
And instead of being dismayed, a religious lawyer told him about a role where
he had to be isolated in the way. No community, that's a big
part of it. No, community and only then can you be a part
ish of the community. But not really, the whole thing is just excruciating,
and I want to shake the dude, like, buddy, like these
people fucking hate you and they're just wanting you to leave them alone, so
they kind of go let you sleep on the street outside of their basement.
I don't know, it's the whole thing sounds like embracing to me. No,
it's exactly it's not. It's not embracing whatsoever. Cindy, what's your
take on this? We've been talking about it. You know, we want
to we want to take this as an act of courage. But then on
the other hand, it's it's really a situation that shouldn't be there in the
first place. What what's what's your take on that? Uh? In French,
we have this expression that says, uh far from the eyes, uh,
far from the heart. So if we can't see you, then we
we we don't have to h to care about you. And that's basically what's
happening here. I really can't see the silver lining here because I don't I
don't think there is any When when I read the article, the the the
image that kept popping into my mind was this picture of the of the fifties
sixties with the the separate but equals toilets. Remember that picture. Yeah,
and and and that's that's exactly what it is. It's just we give you,
you know, like we don't want gay people to marry, so we'll
give them, uh, a non religious agreement to live together. Yeah,
it's the same thing. We don't want to treat you as equals, so
we give you something that's like what you want, but not what you want.
But then we give we gave you something, so you can say that
that we didn't give you anything, and you can say that you were treated
discriminatedly because we did give you something. Uh. And And that's exactly what's
happening here too. He It's it's hard for me to say that, but
I'm on the opinion of what Jason said. He either should have said,
uh no, I don't want your bigotry, or I'm I'm going away,
or I am treated like everyone else. I shouldn't have to to be put
away with some random and hidden role in the church. Either you take me
as I am or you don't. And I think you should have for this,
Uh, I know it's I know it's hard. Uh, I've lived
it. Uh, I know it's extremely hard, but it's it's it's and
and again, I'm really sorry about what I'm going to say because it's it
sounds unsensitive, but it's half an act of courage in my opinion, right,
It's just yeah, I'm going to fight, but not really. I'm
just going to try to find a loophole so so that I can stay there.
But do you think it's like a like a misplaced desire kind of thing
or or or I mean, because because his position seems really contradictory to me.
You know, I can't imagine what he's going through, but it seems
like there's I don't know if I want to say self hate going on or
you know, I mean, Ken, it seems like he's in a in
a in a lose lose situation. And you know, is it possible for
someone to legitimately be a Christian and transgender at the same time. Many Christians
don't think that there's a contradiction there, but it seems like there's an unavoidable
contradiction to me, what are your thoughts on that? So I don't think
it's misguided as you said, because I understand his position that he strongly believes
in something and wants to be part of it. And even though I don't
agree with the context and the religion and the beliefs, I understand that,
and I can I can get into it. But the idea that after the
first response that was no trying to find just to look how to uh and
be told that, yeah, you have to be a hermit and never talk
to anyone and never meet anyone, and that's the only way you can serve
the church. I don't understand how he could go up to that point and
stop there. That's my point. Okay, right, let's let's go over
to let's let's build on that. Let's go over to care for a second.
There it seemed to me like, I mean, say what you want
about the situation, but he did have a sincere love for the church,
a sincere devotion to being a part of that community. Could could we see
this situation as and and again I'm trying to find the silver lining here if
there is one? Could we see I mean, does it from from the
perspective of the priest that he was that was helping him find this loophole?
Or this little niche or this corner chair. You know you don't put baby
in the corner, right, and so is it is? Can we can
we ascribe any positive motivations to this priest? Or is it? Or does
is he? Kind of like it's out of my hands, but I'll help
you try to do this thing you want to do, be part of this
community that you love. Is there is there room for optimism in this in
what's happened here? I think so. And I mean, of course,
we are not inside other people's minds, and I can't pretend to know,
you know, what the priest's intentions and motivations are. But I think the
fact well, first of all, Lexington, I've lived in Lexington for a
little while and actually found it as a city to be a pretty LGBTQ friendly
place, which was a big surprise to me actually. And I can't help
but wonder if you know this priest is also someone who is perhaps trying to
support other members of the LGBTQ community and saw this as an opportunity to accept
another member of the community in and find a place for someone and make it
work. Because so many other priests didn't agree to take mattson On he was
the only one who did, so I can't help but think that there perhaps
was some motivation to try and help give somebody a little bit of a boost
there, and maybe that's what's happening now too. I noticed there was a
statement that came out from the diocese after this happened that was a little bit
vague, but it was basically saying, you know, yes, this person
has come out as trans and we appreciate their dedication and service to the church.
It wasn't an immediate condemnation, and that's great in everything, but at
the same time it is still scraps. But to some of the points that
were made earlier, I do think that if this is his sincerely held belief,
if he believes in the ideology and the doctrine of the Church and believes
that this is the way to do good in the world and avoid going to
hell and eternal damnation and all that, that's a pretty big motivator to stay
in even if it's oppressive and discriminatory. And I would imagine that that comes
with a lot of self hate and kind of internalized transphobia. That is real
problematic. But I mean, if you really believe I'm going to burn in
hell forever if I don't figure out a way to get this church to accept
me, then you're going to do everything you can to get this church to
accept you. And I hate that that's the position that he's in. And
I can understand the motivation if that's his truly held belief, he's doing the
best he can and trying to help other people. But also, okay,
I'll say this too. Maybe this is a controversial opinion here, but all
this business about the church being opposed to the LGBTQ community, this is not
a biblical issue. This is a political issue. This is a social issue
that people are wrapping up and packaging as Oh, God agrees with me,
God thinks that you know, this isn't real and you're an abomination and all
that. This is not a big issue in the Bible. Jesus isn't out
there telling people facts. Don't care about your feelings, you can't be trans
like. That's just not really a thing that's going on in the Bible very
much. I know people will point to a couple of passages here and there,
but I mean it's about the same amount as you know, talking about
what kind of seafood. Seafood you're allowed to eat, in fabrics you can
wear. I mean, this isn't an issue that needs to be an issue
in the church. It's an issue because it's a social and political hot button
issue that people are bringing up. So I can imagine people being a Christian
and being trans uh and just kind of separating the two. So I don't
know what's going on in this case, but again it's it scraps. I
don't feel great about it, Sinny. I know you had something that you
wanted to add in here. Let's go back to you. Yeah. I
think it's it's important to distinguish between the two different situations here. It's,
on one hand, we have a transmit that wants to be part of the
community, and then there's the second layer of him wanted to have responsibility and
the position in the UH, in the organization. And I think that's two
different things because the first part, yeah, he's he's accepted because he's part
of the flock and he's just another person and and that's fine, uh.
But wanting to have responsibilities while being trends, that's too much of an open
minded to request to the Catholic church, and so I think it's when when
we we talked about a lot of his his emotions and his education. I
think it's it's it's important to distinguish the two. I don't know, what
do you guys think, Jason, what are your thoughts on that? Well?
I wish they would have just rejected him out right, you know,
I think it would have just been the best thing for him. Do you
think he's trying to push the issue? Do you think he's trying to I
mean, here we are talking about it, He's got, you know,
a group of atheists that are discussing this in an open forum. Do you
do you think that that was maybe part of it, that that he that
he maybe care was kind of saying that that he maybe is trying to maybe
even be a trailblazer. I mean, do you think that that he's trying
to shake things up? I mean, sure he could be. I don't
really speculate on people's intentions, no offense, I just I mean, I
mean, what are you shaking up? Like an organization where people just write
down words about nothing. I mean, it's I don't know, man,
I mean I do science for a living, so other people here do science
and math. I don't care what somebody's opinion is, you know, so
and these are the things that matter the most, you know, and like
just the reason our cars run and we have health and understand the world around
us. So like for me, all these ideas and opinions and rules and
things are just people making shit up. The Catholic Church agrees, Who the
what what are you talking about? I have codebooks that like discuss metallurgy and
if you don't do it right, it should explodes and people die. Right,
that's real, Right, This shit's fake. So it's really hard for
me to take it serious. That's why to me, it's it's just his
psychology is actually extremely interesting and fascinating to me. The fact that he is
pushing this and needing this and willing to take like an abused kind of like
Quasimodo position in order to be a part of this thing. I think that's
if anything, that's like a response to trauma. Honestly, it's it's again,
you can't psychoanalyze somebody, and I don't think it's fair. But the
fact when you see people repeating back to this, repeating the same behaviors or
turning back to the same shit that harms him, and those are trauma responses.
I mean, that's why I feel so bad for this dude. It
makes me like reading this article made me fucking kind of kind of like a
cringey type of feeling, you know, And it's I don't know, it's
I feel bad for the dude. I feel bad that he actually cares this
much about this thing and is so obsessed with it. And I just feel
like somebody who seems to love the world as much and wants to be part
of an organization to help people, I think, you know, maybe somebody
like the ACA would really benefit from this guy a lot more than the fucking
folks of the Catholic Church, right exactly. Let's go, let's get last
thoughts from Kara, and then we'll get last thoughts from Cindy last. Yeah.
I just again, I guess I'm kind of in the same spot I
was when we started. I find the situation to be sad. I wish
that there were better options available for this guy. I wish that he was
in a position to where he felt comfortable taking other options, where he wasn't
going to be treated so poorly. And at the same time, I can
see the perspective that, hey, maybe there's room for movement within the church
on this issue, and it's going to take somebody who has found a way
to get their foot in the door in order to try and kick it open
a little bit further. I get the thinking it wouldn't be the route that
I would take, but I don't want to foreclose on the possibility that maybe
there could be a shift in policy as a result of this. Maybe maybe
maybe that is the goal, and that's the thinking here, and you know,
perhaps some sliver of good will come from it, but overall, it's
just it's a situation that we shouldn't be having to even deal with. Right.
So I suppose, as as a group of atheists here, maybe we
you know, we could we think that the energy that he's putting into trying
to change the church, trying to you know, change the church into something
that's better, Uh, maybe we would hope that he would recognize that,
uh, that's not the right place, you know, that's not the right
way to go. You know, let's maybe we should trash the whole system
and and and uh and do something else. Cindy, what are what are
your last thoughts on if you if you could say something to Christian Mattson,
what would you tell him. I'm going to answer your question, but I'd
like to go back to what Jason said about psychology here. Uh. And
I think this this oarticle shows how indoctrination, how how strong it can be.
Because if you're a trans person and uh, you were brought up in
the church and you cannot ignore the discrimination against uh, this category of people,
and so your you're transman and you want to be part of this community
that you know won't accept you. And the strength this inductrination has to have
in order to motivate you enough to go through all of this and try to
still find a solution and still try to serve this uh, this this origion.
Yeah, it shows the how strong, uh and and deep the the
inductrination can go. And and that's why when we when we are on social
media, when I cringe when I see people calling theists stupid or crazy,
because that that take is to feed and crazy. I mean, you really
have to know nothing about psychology to believe that indoctrination is not a powerful tool
to manipulate people and act in the way you want. And so yeah,
if I met him, I would ask him why what he finds in the
church that he thinks he could bring to it? Why would you think that
you can bring something to this specific organization that they don't already have. And
if it's this idea that yeah, we need to change it from the inside,
then go ahead. Sure your strength would be much more useful somewhere else,
but you're in there. You have this indoctrination, you think like those
people, and you're probably one of the best to be able to change if
that's what he's strength to do. If it's not, then I would maybe
advise seem to to look at other other ways to to help people, right
right, anyone else? Last words? All right, that was a great
place to end there, Cindy, thank you all, Jason, Kara and
Cindy for joining me. Thank all of you for watching and listening.