WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.040 --> 00:00:04.080 Welcome to the nonprofits. Coming out publicly can be stressful, terrifying, an 2 00:00:04.120 --> 00:00:08.199 even dangerous event in the life of someone that's a member of the LGBTQ community, 3 00:00:08.519 --> 00:00:12.560 especially for someone that is deeply religious. Our final story this week is 4 00:00:12.560 --> 00:00:16.760 about a man that did exactly that. Caer Griffin tell us what happened sure. 5 00:00:16.960 --> 00:00:21.039 This article is about a transman, Christian Matson, coming out publicly as 6 00:00:21.120 --> 00:00:25.960 trans while occupying a position as a hermit in the Catholic Diocese of Lexington, 7 00:00:26.359 --> 00:00:31.399 which would make him possibly the first openly transperson in a Catholic vocation. And 8 00:00:31.559 --> 00:00:36.000 the article describes a hermit in case you're wondering, as a lay person regardless 9 00:00:36.039 --> 00:00:40.439 of gender, who makes vows of obedience, poverty and chastity directly to a 10 00:00:40.479 --> 00:00:45.320 diocesan bishop and lives a largely solitary life of prayer. So Matson, who 11 00:00:45.320 --> 00:00:49.679 had revealed it he was a transman to church leadership but was not out publicly, 12 00:00:50.079 --> 00:00:53.679 had trouble obtaining a post as a hermit, but eventually did find a 13 00:00:53.719 --> 00:00:57.960 bishop in twenty twenty who would accept him on the grounds that there's no pursuit 14 00:00:58.000 --> 00:01:02.479 of priesthood or engagement in Szachri Mental Ministry and because the hermit is a relatively 15 00:01:02.560 --> 00:01:06.920 quiet and secluded type of vocation. This year, however, Matson decided to 16 00:01:06.959 --> 00:01:11.879 come out publicly because of the Catholic Church's unscientific and harmful statements about trans people, 17 00:01:11.480 --> 00:01:15.799 as well as efforts to retail trans writes and some of his own conversations 18 00:01:15.799 --> 00:01:19.280 with trans and non binary people in the church who felt that they were rejected 19 00:01:19.319 --> 00:01:22.799 by the church, and Matson believes that Catholics need to deal with the fact 20 00:01:22.799 --> 00:01:25.719 that trans people are in fact in the church. All right, Kara, 21 00:01:26.079 --> 00:01:29.239 Them's are the facts. Now, what's your take on it? Okay? 22 00:01:29.560 --> 00:01:36.200 So I find this article mainly just sad. It's sad that this is a 23 00:01:36.239 --> 00:01:42.040 situation that trans people who practice Catholicism and many other faiths have to face, 24 00:01:42.280 --> 00:01:44.519 and that this is a thing that even had to happen. I mean, 25 00:01:44.560 --> 00:01:49.400 it's an obvious case of discrimination that wouldn't be tolerated in an organization that is 26 00:01:49.480 --> 00:01:53.519 bound by even the most basic non discrimination policy. But of course that's not 27 00:01:53.560 --> 00:01:59.400 what we're dealing with here. And the justifications that we heard from the article 28 00:01:59.480 --> 00:02:04.799 for why even why Matson was finally allowed to be accepted into this position as 29 00:02:04.799 --> 00:02:08.159 a hermit are pretty demeaning in my opinion. It said that it was allowed 30 00:02:08.199 --> 00:02:14.280 because he would be quiet and secluded and not doing any kind of priestly ministry, 31 00:02:14.960 --> 00:02:16.599 which to me is basically just implying that, well, he won't be 32 00:02:16.639 --> 00:02:21.719 able to corrupt anybody else by interacting with them or being seen or heard, 33 00:02:21.879 --> 00:02:25.360 So as long as he's just over here, maybe it's okay. And to 34 00:02:25.360 --> 00:02:30.120 me that's giving like some real quasi moto vibes. And it's really clear, 35 00:02:30.159 --> 00:02:34.919 who's, you know, being ugly in this situation. It's the people that 36 00:02:34.960 --> 00:02:39.719 are treating people this way. And you know, there is an element of 37 00:02:39.960 --> 00:02:46.080 a win to the story in that Matson is finally able to be open about 38 00:02:46.120 --> 00:02:50.520 his identity and he's doing so publicly in a way that he is intending to 39 00:02:51.039 --> 00:02:54.719 use to kind of push the church to stop harming and demonizing trans people and 40 00:02:54.800 --> 00:03:00.520 instead acknowledge their existence and value. And that's great. It's a courageous act. 41 00:03:00.560 --> 00:03:05.479 It's one that put his position in jeopardy, and I'm sure came at 42 00:03:05.919 --> 00:03:12.879 great personal distress, but it shouldn't have been necessary. So it's hard to 43 00:03:13.319 --> 00:03:15.800 feel like it's a feel good story, because this isn't a situation we should 44 00:03:15.800 --> 00:03:20.479 be in. Definitely, definitely, Jason, can you give us some more 45 00:03:20.479 --> 00:03:23.759 of the details of what Mattson did and maybe even why did he do it? 46 00:03:23.919 --> 00:03:28.159 Well? Yeah, So, like Matson felt really called to minister to 47 00:03:28.199 --> 00:03:30.800 people, you know, working in the arts, and he ended up seeking 48 00:03:30.840 --> 00:03:35.960 the advice of a canon lawyer. So somebody within the church in light of 49 00:03:35.960 --> 00:03:39.120 a two thousand declaration for the Vatican that people who have undergone quote sex change 50 00:03:39.319 --> 00:03:44.479 aren't eligible to quote mary be ordained to the priestuit or intro religious life. 51 00:03:44.639 --> 00:03:47.639 The lawyer was the one who suggested Mattson explore the role of the diocesan hermit 52 00:03:49.080 --> 00:03:52.479 as a lay person, you know, regardless of gender, who makes bows 53 00:03:52.479 --> 00:03:58.080 of obedience, poverty and chastity directly to a diocesan bishop and lives a largely 54 00:03:58.120 --> 00:04:01.639 solitary life of prayer. Now, I think what k was talking about. 55 00:04:01.680 --> 00:04:06.280 He became increasingly alarmed both by the efforts to demonize trans people and curtail the 56 00:04:06.360 --> 00:04:11.159 rights in the state house across the US, and by the Catholic Church's public 57 00:04:11.199 --> 00:04:15.519 statements on trans people. So while he was kind of throwing some fucking scraps 58 00:04:15.560 --> 00:04:18.439 and saying hey, sure, yeah, fuck off, leave me alone. 59 00:04:18.560 --> 00:04:25.600 Just sure, yeah, yeah, you're Gara hermit, go and hide from 60 00:04:25.600 --> 00:04:29.439 everybody. Yeah, I go. It's it's I can't help but echo the 61 00:04:29.480 --> 00:04:32.079 feelings of care. I just say that. It's I'm not sure how much 62 00:04:32.160 --> 00:04:38.920 of a win it is. It's it's yeah, right site. It's like 63 00:04:38.920 --> 00:04:43.319 he's going through all this effort to embrace this the church, that he loves, 64 00:04:43.399 --> 00:04:46.480 this, this community, and they're just kind of like, yeah, 65 00:04:46.519 --> 00:04:49.600 like you said, like toss and scraps. I mean, is so do 66 00:04:49.639 --> 00:04:55.000 you think that the church was embracing him in any way whatsoever? To see 67 00:04:55.000 --> 00:04:58.600 this is just so troubling on so many levels, right, Like I problem, 68 00:04:58.680 --> 00:05:00.800 so I answered what you asked. This is Look, the fact that 69 00:05:00.839 --> 00:05:06.319 this man's desire to serve an already problematic organization is really difficult for me to 70 00:05:06.399 --> 00:05:10.199 understand. You know. And when you and like you said, when when 71 00:05:10.240 --> 00:05:14.680 you showed that desire to serve the first barrier was pure bigotry, right, 72 00:05:15.560 --> 00:05:18.439 And instead of being dismayed, a religious lawyer told him about a role where 73 00:05:18.439 --> 00:05:23.160 he had to be isolated in the way. No community, that's a big 74 00:05:23.199 --> 00:05:26.959 part of it. No, community and only then can you be a part 75 00:05:27.160 --> 00:05:30.959 ish of the community. But not really, the whole thing is just excruciating, 76 00:05:31.360 --> 00:05:35.399 and I want to shake the dude, like, buddy, like these 77 00:05:35.439 --> 00:05:40.480 people fucking hate you and they're just wanting you to leave them alone, so 78 00:05:40.560 --> 00:05:45.360 they kind of go let you sleep on the street outside of their basement. 79 00:05:46.680 --> 00:05:49.360 I don't know, it's the whole thing sounds like embracing to me. No, 80 00:05:49.399 --> 00:05:54.639 it's exactly it's not. It's not embracing whatsoever. Cindy, what's your 81 00:05:54.680 --> 00:05:58.240 take on this? We've been talking about it. You know, we want 82 00:05:58.279 --> 00:06:00.199 to we want to take this as an act of courage. But then on 83 00:06:00.240 --> 00:06:03.879 the other hand, it's it's really a situation that shouldn't be there in the 84 00:06:03.879 --> 00:06:08.920 first place. What what's what's your take on that? Uh? In French, 85 00:06:08.959 --> 00:06:13.360 we have this expression that says, uh far from the eyes, uh, 86 00:06:13.680 --> 00:06:16.399 far from the heart. So if we can't see you, then we 87 00:06:16.399 --> 00:06:21.319 we we don't have to h to care about you. And that's basically what's 88 00:06:21.319 --> 00:06:29.800 happening here. I really can't see the silver lining here because I don't I 89 00:06:29.800 --> 00:06:34.079 don't think there is any When when I read the article, the the the 90 00:06:34.120 --> 00:06:41.319 image that kept popping into my mind was this picture of the of the fifties 91 00:06:41.439 --> 00:06:47.879 sixties with the the separate but equals toilets. Remember that picture. Yeah, 92 00:06:48.199 --> 00:06:54.240 and and and that's that's exactly what it is. It's just we give you, 93 00:06:54.240 --> 00:06:58.040 you know, like we don't want gay people to marry, so we'll 94 00:06:58.079 --> 00:07:04.199 give them, uh, a non religious agreement to live together. Yeah, 95 00:07:04.199 --> 00:07:09.759 it's the same thing. We don't want to treat you as equals, so 96 00:07:09.839 --> 00:07:14.079 we give you something that's like what you want, but not what you want. 97 00:07:14.319 --> 00:07:17.399 But then we give we gave you something, so you can say that 98 00:07:17.399 --> 00:07:21.040 that we didn't give you anything, and you can say that you were treated 99 00:07:23.160 --> 00:07:27.800 discriminatedly because we did give you something. Uh. And And that's exactly what's 100 00:07:28.480 --> 00:07:33.439 happening here too. He It's it's hard for me to say that, but 101 00:07:34.680 --> 00:07:41.160 I'm on the opinion of what Jason said. He either should have said, 102 00:07:41.639 --> 00:07:46.720 uh no, I don't want your bigotry, or I'm I'm going away, 103 00:07:46.120 --> 00:07:51.720 or I am treated like everyone else. I shouldn't have to to be put 104 00:07:51.839 --> 00:07:58.680 away with some random and hidden role in the church. Either you take me 105 00:07:58.720 --> 00:08:03.560 as I am or you don't. And I think you should have for this, 106 00:08:03.959 --> 00:08:07.600 Uh, I know it's I know it's hard. Uh, I've lived 107 00:08:07.639 --> 00:08:13.839 it. Uh, I know it's extremely hard, but it's it's it's and 108 00:08:13.839 --> 00:08:18.680 and again, I'm really sorry about what I'm going to say because it's it 109 00:08:18.360 --> 00:08:24.399 sounds unsensitive, but it's half an act of courage in my opinion, right, 110 00:08:26.000 --> 00:08:30.560 It's just yeah, I'm going to fight, but not really. I'm 111 00:08:30.600 --> 00:08:35.159 just going to try to find a loophole so so that I can stay there. 112 00:08:35.440 --> 00:08:39.080 But do you think it's like a like a misplaced desire kind of thing 113 00:08:39.200 --> 00:08:45.000 or or or I mean, because because his position seems really contradictory to me. 114 00:08:45.919 --> 00:08:48.159 You know, I can't imagine what he's going through, but it seems 115 00:08:48.200 --> 00:08:52.320 like there's I don't know if I want to say self hate going on or 116 00:08:52.399 --> 00:08:54.559 you know, I mean, Ken, it seems like he's in a in 117 00:08:54.600 --> 00:08:58.200 a in a lose lose situation. And you know, is it possible for 118 00:08:58.639 --> 00:09:05.159 someone to legitimately be a Christian and transgender at the same time. Many Christians 119 00:09:05.240 --> 00:09:09.559 don't think that there's a contradiction there, but it seems like there's an unavoidable 120 00:09:09.600 --> 00:09:13.320 contradiction to me, what are your thoughts on that? So I don't think 121 00:09:13.360 --> 00:09:22.120 it's misguided as you said, because I understand his position that he strongly believes 122 00:09:22.519 --> 00:09:26.440 in something and wants to be part of it. And even though I don't 123 00:09:26.480 --> 00:09:31.200 agree with the context and the religion and the beliefs, I understand that, 124 00:09:31.279 --> 00:09:37.519 and I can I can get into it. But the idea that after the 125 00:09:37.559 --> 00:09:43.919 first response that was no trying to find just to look how to uh and 126 00:09:45.240 --> 00:09:48.360 be told that, yeah, you have to be a hermit and never talk 127 00:09:48.440 --> 00:09:50.960 to anyone and never meet anyone, and that's the only way you can serve 128 00:09:52.039 --> 00:09:56.879 the church. I don't understand how he could go up to that point and 129 00:09:56.919 --> 00:10:01.840 stop there. That's my point. Okay, right, let's let's go over 130 00:10:01.879 --> 00:10:03.840 to let's let's build on that. Let's go over to care for a second. 131 00:10:03.840 --> 00:10:09.440 There it seemed to me like, I mean, say what you want 132 00:10:09.440 --> 00:10:13.840 about the situation, but he did have a sincere love for the church, 133 00:10:13.919 --> 00:10:20.000 a sincere devotion to being a part of that community. Could could we see 134 00:10:20.000 --> 00:10:26.559 this situation as and and again I'm trying to find the silver lining here if 135 00:10:26.559 --> 00:10:28.480 there is one? Could we see I mean, does it from from the 136 00:10:28.480 --> 00:10:33.440 perspective of the priest that he was that was helping him find this loophole? 137 00:10:33.600 --> 00:10:37.960 Or this little niche or this corner chair. You know you don't put baby 138 00:10:37.960 --> 00:10:41.080 in the corner, right, and so is it is? Can we can 139 00:10:41.120 --> 00:10:46.039 we ascribe any positive motivations to this priest? Or is it? Or does 140 00:10:46.200 --> 00:10:48.639 is he? Kind of like it's out of my hands, but I'll help 141 00:10:48.720 --> 00:10:52.279 you try to do this thing you want to do, be part of this 142 00:10:52.320 --> 00:10:56.320 community that you love. Is there is there room for optimism in this in 143 00:10:56.519 --> 00:10:58.639 what's happened here? I think so. And I mean, of course, 144 00:11:00.200 --> 00:11:03.440 we are not inside other people's minds, and I can't pretend to know, 145 00:11:03.720 --> 00:11:07.879 you know, what the priest's intentions and motivations are. But I think the 146 00:11:07.960 --> 00:11:13.200 fact well, first of all, Lexington, I've lived in Lexington for a 147 00:11:13.200 --> 00:11:18.399 little while and actually found it as a city to be a pretty LGBTQ friendly 148 00:11:18.519 --> 00:11:24.679 place, which was a big surprise to me actually. And I can't help 149 00:11:24.720 --> 00:11:30.960 but wonder if you know this priest is also someone who is perhaps trying to 150 00:11:31.120 --> 00:11:37.039 support other members of the LGBTQ community and saw this as an opportunity to accept 151 00:11:37.720 --> 00:11:41.080 another member of the community in and find a place for someone and make it 152 00:11:41.120 --> 00:11:48.159 work. Because so many other priests didn't agree to take mattson On he was 153 00:11:48.240 --> 00:11:52.919 the only one who did, so I can't help but think that there perhaps 154 00:11:52.120 --> 00:11:56.600 was some motivation to try and help give somebody a little bit of a boost 155 00:11:56.639 --> 00:12:01.799 there, and maybe that's what's happening now too. I noticed there was a 156 00:12:01.840 --> 00:12:07.600 statement that came out from the diocese after this happened that was a little bit 157 00:12:07.679 --> 00:12:11.279 vague, but it was basically saying, you know, yes, this person 158 00:12:11.360 --> 00:12:16.600 has come out as trans and we appreciate their dedication and service to the church. 159 00:12:16.440 --> 00:12:24.279 It wasn't an immediate condemnation, and that's great in everything, but at 160 00:12:24.320 --> 00:12:28.120 the same time it is still scraps. But to some of the points that 161 00:12:28.120 --> 00:12:33.679 were made earlier, I do think that if this is his sincerely held belief, 162 00:12:33.720 --> 00:12:39.360 if he believes in the ideology and the doctrine of the Church and believes 163 00:12:39.360 --> 00:12:41.399 that this is the way to do good in the world and avoid going to 164 00:12:41.440 --> 00:12:46.120 hell and eternal damnation and all that, that's a pretty big motivator to stay 165 00:12:46.120 --> 00:12:52.600 in even if it's oppressive and discriminatory. And I would imagine that that comes 166 00:12:52.639 --> 00:13:00.080 with a lot of self hate and kind of internalized transphobia. That is real 167 00:13:00.200 --> 00:13:03.399 problematic. But I mean, if you really believe I'm going to burn in 168 00:13:03.559 --> 00:13:07.759 hell forever if I don't figure out a way to get this church to accept 169 00:13:07.759 --> 00:13:11.879 me, then you're going to do everything you can to get this church to 170 00:13:11.919 --> 00:13:16.399 accept you. And I hate that that's the position that he's in. And 171 00:13:16.039 --> 00:13:20.600 I can understand the motivation if that's his truly held belief, he's doing the 172 00:13:20.600 --> 00:13:26.039 best he can and trying to help other people. But also, okay, 173 00:13:26.080 --> 00:13:30.639 I'll say this too. Maybe this is a controversial opinion here, but all 174 00:13:30.679 --> 00:13:35.320 this business about the church being opposed to the LGBTQ community, this is not 175 00:13:35.799 --> 00:13:39.159 a biblical issue. This is a political issue. This is a social issue 176 00:13:39.200 --> 00:13:43.159 that people are wrapping up and packaging as Oh, God agrees with me, 177 00:13:43.360 --> 00:13:46.759 God thinks that you know, this isn't real and you're an abomination and all 178 00:13:46.799 --> 00:13:52.559 that. This is not a big issue in the Bible. Jesus isn't out 179 00:13:52.559 --> 00:13:56.240 there telling people facts. Don't care about your feelings, you can't be trans 180 00:13:56.320 --> 00:14:00.240 like. That's just not really a thing that's going on in the Bible very 181 00:14:00.320 --> 00:14:03.039 much. I know people will point to a couple of passages here and there, 182 00:14:03.080 --> 00:14:05.039 but I mean it's about the same amount as you know, talking about 183 00:14:05.399 --> 00:14:09.399 what kind of seafood. Seafood you're allowed to eat, in fabrics you can 184 00:14:09.440 --> 00:14:13.200 wear. I mean, this isn't an issue that needs to be an issue 185 00:14:13.200 --> 00:14:16.440 in the church. It's an issue because it's a social and political hot button 186 00:14:16.480 --> 00:14:20.519 issue that people are bringing up. So I can imagine people being a Christian 187 00:14:20.559 --> 00:14:24.200 and being trans uh and just kind of separating the two. So I don't 188 00:14:24.200 --> 00:14:28.600 know what's going on in this case, but again it's it scraps. I 189 00:14:30.559 --> 00:14:33.600 don't feel great about it, Sinny. I know you had something that you 190 00:14:33.639 --> 00:14:37.279 wanted to add in here. Let's go back to you. Yeah. I 191 00:14:37.320 --> 00:14:43.919 think it's it's important to distinguish between the two different situations here. It's, 192 00:14:43.080 --> 00:14:48.159 on one hand, we have a transmit that wants to be part of the 193 00:14:48.200 --> 00:14:54.559 community, and then there's the second layer of him wanted to have responsibility and 194 00:14:54.720 --> 00:15:00.240 the position in the UH, in the organization. And I think that's two 195 00:15:00.240 --> 00:15:05.279 different things because the first part, yeah, he's he's accepted because he's part 196 00:15:05.320 --> 00:15:09.919 of the flock and he's just another person and and that's fine, uh. 197 00:15:09.080 --> 00:15:16.799 But wanting to have responsibilities while being trends, that's too much of an open 198 00:15:16.879 --> 00:15:22.240 minded to request to the Catholic church, and so I think it's when when 199 00:15:22.279 --> 00:15:28.720 we we talked about a lot of his his emotions and his education. I 200 00:15:28.759 --> 00:15:33.360 think it's it's it's important to distinguish the two. I don't know, what 201 00:15:33.399 --> 00:15:37.399 do you guys think, Jason, what are your thoughts on that? Well? 202 00:15:37.440 --> 00:15:39.919 I wish they would have just rejected him out right, you know, 203 00:15:39.519 --> 00:15:43.000 I think it would have just been the best thing for him. Do you 204 00:15:43.039 --> 00:15:45.559 think he's trying to push the issue? Do you think he's trying to I 205 00:15:45.559 --> 00:15:46.799 mean, here we are talking about it, He's got, you know, 206 00:15:48.200 --> 00:15:52.039 a group of atheists that are discussing this in an open forum. Do you 207 00:15:52.080 --> 00:15:54.919 do you think that that was maybe part of it, that that he that 208 00:15:54.080 --> 00:16:00.279 he maybe care was kind of saying that that he maybe is trying to maybe 209 00:16:00.320 --> 00:16:03.919 even be a trailblazer. I mean, do you think that that he's trying 210 00:16:03.960 --> 00:16:07.879 to shake things up? I mean, sure he could be. I don't 211 00:16:07.879 --> 00:16:11.720 really speculate on people's intentions, no offense, I just I mean, I 212 00:16:11.720 --> 00:16:15.360 mean, what are you shaking up? Like an organization where people just write 213 00:16:15.360 --> 00:16:18.120 down words about nothing. I mean, it's I don't know, man, 214 00:16:18.200 --> 00:16:23.240 I mean I do science for a living, so other people here do science 215 00:16:23.240 --> 00:16:26.320 and math. I don't care what somebody's opinion is, you know, so 216 00:16:26.679 --> 00:16:30.960 and these are the things that matter the most, you know, and like 217 00:16:30.159 --> 00:16:36.039 just the reason our cars run and we have health and understand the world around 218 00:16:36.120 --> 00:16:40.960 us. So like for me, all these ideas and opinions and rules and 219 00:16:41.120 --> 00:16:44.879 things are just people making shit up. The Catholic Church agrees, Who the 220 00:16:45.120 --> 00:16:49.559 what what are you talking about? I have codebooks that like discuss metallurgy and 221 00:16:49.679 --> 00:16:52.519 if you don't do it right, it should explodes and people die. Right, 222 00:16:52.799 --> 00:16:56.720 that's real, Right, This shit's fake. So it's really hard for 223 00:16:56.759 --> 00:17:00.639 me to take it serious. That's why to me, it's it's just his 224 00:17:00.720 --> 00:17:04.039 psychology is actually extremely interesting and fascinating to me. The fact that he is 225 00:17:04.079 --> 00:17:08.319 pushing this and needing this and willing to take like an abused kind of like 226 00:17:08.440 --> 00:17:14.880 Quasimodo position in order to be a part of this thing. I think that's 227 00:17:15.400 --> 00:17:21.359 if anything, that's like a response to trauma. Honestly, it's it's again, 228 00:17:21.440 --> 00:17:23.640 you can't psychoanalyze somebody, and I don't think it's fair. But the 229 00:17:23.680 --> 00:17:27.480 fact when you see people repeating back to this, repeating the same behaviors or 230 00:17:27.480 --> 00:17:32.599 turning back to the same shit that harms him, and those are trauma responses. 231 00:17:32.640 --> 00:17:34.160 I mean, that's why I feel so bad for this dude. It 232 00:17:34.200 --> 00:17:38.720 makes me like reading this article made me fucking kind of kind of like a 233 00:17:38.880 --> 00:17:42.519 cringey type of feeling, you know, And it's I don't know, it's 234 00:17:42.640 --> 00:17:45.759 I feel bad for the dude. I feel bad that he actually cares this 235 00:17:45.960 --> 00:17:52.759 much about this thing and is so obsessed with it. And I just feel 236 00:17:52.759 --> 00:17:55.480 like somebody who seems to love the world as much and wants to be part 237 00:17:55.519 --> 00:17:59.240 of an organization to help people, I think, you know, maybe somebody 238 00:17:59.279 --> 00:18:02.519 like the ACA would really benefit from this guy a lot more than the fucking 239 00:18:02.799 --> 00:18:06.960 folks of the Catholic Church, right exactly. Let's go, let's get last 240 00:18:06.960 --> 00:18:10.880 thoughts from Kara, and then we'll get last thoughts from Cindy last. Yeah. 241 00:18:11.200 --> 00:18:15.240 I just again, I guess I'm kind of in the same spot I 242 00:18:15.319 --> 00:18:18.640 was when we started. I find the situation to be sad. I wish 243 00:18:18.759 --> 00:18:22.799 that there were better options available for this guy. I wish that he was 244 00:18:23.000 --> 00:18:27.039 in a position to where he felt comfortable taking other options, where he wasn't 245 00:18:27.079 --> 00:18:33.119 going to be treated so poorly. And at the same time, I can 246 00:18:33.400 --> 00:18:37.759 see the perspective that, hey, maybe there's room for movement within the church 247 00:18:37.799 --> 00:18:41.200 on this issue, and it's going to take somebody who has found a way 248 00:18:41.240 --> 00:18:44.319 to get their foot in the door in order to try and kick it open 249 00:18:44.359 --> 00:18:48.599 a little bit further. I get the thinking it wouldn't be the route that 250 00:18:48.640 --> 00:18:53.160 I would take, but I don't want to foreclose on the possibility that maybe 251 00:18:53.160 --> 00:18:59.839 there could be a shift in policy as a result of this. Maybe maybe 252 00:19:00.039 --> 00:19:02.799 maybe that is the goal, and that's the thinking here, and you know, 253 00:19:02.920 --> 00:19:06.680 perhaps some sliver of good will come from it, but overall, it's 254 00:19:06.720 --> 00:19:10.000 just it's a situation that we shouldn't be having to even deal with. Right. 255 00:19:10.160 --> 00:19:12.680 So I suppose, as as a group of atheists here, maybe we 256 00:19:14.759 --> 00:19:18.039 you know, we could we think that the energy that he's putting into trying 257 00:19:18.119 --> 00:19:22.000 to change the church, trying to you know, change the church into something 258 00:19:22.039 --> 00:19:26.880 that's better, Uh, maybe we would hope that he would recognize that, 259 00:19:26.359 --> 00:19:29.839 uh, that's not the right place, you know, that's not the right 260 00:19:29.880 --> 00:19:32.920 way to go. You know, let's maybe we should trash the whole system 261 00:19:32.960 --> 00:19:36.640 and and and uh and do something else. Cindy, what are what are 262 00:19:36.680 --> 00:19:40.680 your last thoughts on if you if you could say something to Christian Mattson, 263 00:19:40.960 --> 00:19:45.480 what would you tell him. I'm going to answer your question, but I'd 264 00:19:45.559 --> 00:19:49.799 like to go back to what Jason said about psychology here. Uh. And 265 00:19:49.920 --> 00:19:59.359 I think this this oarticle shows how indoctrination, how how strong it can be. 266 00:19:59.359 --> 00:20:03.519 Because if you're a trans person and uh, you were brought up in 267 00:20:03.599 --> 00:20:11.759 the church and you cannot ignore the discrimination against uh, this category of people, 268 00:20:11.039 --> 00:20:15.880 and so your you're transman and you want to be part of this community 269 00:20:17.039 --> 00:20:22.960 that you know won't accept you. And the strength this inductrination has to have 270 00:20:23.359 --> 00:20:29.759 in order to motivate you enough to go through all of this and try to 271 00:20:29.759 --> 00:20:34.920 still find a solution and still try to serve this uh, this this origion. 272 00:20:36.319 --> 00:20:41.440 Yeah, it shows the how strong, uh and and deep the the 273 00:20:41.599 --> 00:20:48.200 inductrination can go. And and that's why when we when we are on social 274 00:20:48.279 --> 00:20:55.880 media, when I cringe when I see people calling theists stupid or crazy, 275 00:20:55.920 --> 00:21:00.559 because that that take is to feed and crazy. I mean, you really 276 00:21:00.559 --> 00:21:07.440 have to know nothing about psychology to believe that indoctrination is not a powerful tool 277 00:21:07.519 --> 00:21:14.039 to manipulate people and act in the way you want. And so yeah, 278 00:21:14.359 --> 00:21:19.240 if I met him, I would ask him why what he finds in the 279 00:21:19.319 --> 00:21:26.839 church that he thinks he could bring to it? Why would you think that 280 00:21:26.880 --> 00:21:33.160 you can bring something to this specific organization that they don't already have. And 281 00:21:33.319 --> 00:21:37.119 if it's this idea that yeah, we need to change it from the inside, 282 00:21:37.200 --> 00:21:45.559 then go ahead. Sure your strength would be much more useful somewhere else, 283 00:21:45.680 --> 00:21:49.279 but you're in there. You have this indoctrination, you think like those 284 00:21:49.279 --> 00:21:55.279 people, and you're probably one of the best to be able to change if 285 00:21:55.319 --> 00:21:59.640 that's what he's strength to do. If it's not, then I would maybe 286 00:21:59.640 --> 00:22:04.400 advise seem to to look at other other ways to to help people, right 287 00:22:04.680 --> 00:22:07.799 right, anyone else? Last words? All right, that was a great 288 00:22:07.799 --> 00:22:11.279 place to end there, Cindy, thank you all, Jason, Kara and 289 00:22:11.319 --> 00:22:15.440 Cindy for joining me. Thank all of you for watching and listening.