You're listening to the Paranormal UK Radio Network, the best in paranormal talk radio
in the UK and around the world. Hello world, you're listening to Eleanor
Wagner's Strange and Scary world here on the Paranormal UK Radio Network, where we're
always creeping it real. I'm your host, Eleanor Wagner. Welcome all to
my paranormal Closet where the stories in magic take place. My guest today has
been fascinated by all things paranormal since childhood, beginning with a UFO encounter he
had at four years old. Because of that experience, his life's passion has
been to research, investigate, rite and share extraterrestrial encounters from everyday people in
a way that conveys the human element of profoundly strange encounters. Please join me
and welcoming author, upologist and paranormal researcher. No more slavic. How's it,
god Ry, Thank you so much for joining me. Yeah, thanks,
thanks for having me on. I appreciate it. So you had a
UFO encounter when you were four years old? I did? Yeah, Yeah,
let me get into it a little bit here, yeah, please please
do. So I had fallen asleep and a loud bang woke me up in
the middle of the night, and being four years old the middle of the
night, I don't know if that's like ten PM or like three am,
you know, Like I didn't know, but my eyes kind of popped open,
and I just had no idea what it was, and it kind of
freaked me out a little bit. So I was kind of looking around the
room and listening to see if I could figure out what it was. And
then I started hearing these little light taps on the window and I'm like,
oh, that's rain. It's a thunder and lightning storm. That must have
been thunder that woke me up. So I sat up in my bed to
look out the window. And at the time, I lived at the tip
of Maine bordering Canada. You can look across my window, look out my
window and see Canada. If I was outside, I could throw a rock
and almost hit Canada. That's how close I was. And between my house
in Canada was the Saint John River, and I'm looking out the window and
I can see the river and it's kind of raging pretty good because there's a
storm going on and the sky's lighting up, and I can see the little
things of electricity lightning going off, and I'm like, yeah, this is
awesome. So I'm kind of kneeling up on my bed watching everything, and
after a moment, I'm not really sure how long there was this Really it's
hard to explain, but like this really obscene lightning bolt got stuck in the
sky. Like if I were to ask you to draw a lightning bolt,
you would draw like this jagged yellow line, like the charging indicator on your
smartphone. That's what it looked like. That's what my memory tells me,
is that it looked like a lightning bolt and I got stuck in the sky
or in a cloud or something, and there was electricity coming off of it,
and there was booms associated with it. And then I'm not sure what
happened next. I guess I fell asleep, because the next thing I know,
I woke up in the morning, and I didn't have my bearings about
me. I just knew that I had to go to the bathroom. So
I got up, went to the bathroom, and when I was done,
walking from the bathroom back to my room, I can see out my bedroom
window and the lightning bolt was still there. Yeah, and I was like,
oh, yeah, that's crazy. And again, I'm four years old,
so I'm really thinking. But I remember being really excited that it was
still there, and it was kind of all coming back to me. So
I ran downstairs and I got my dad and I brought him upstairs. Why
we didn't go outside, you know, I don't know a four year old
logic, but I brought him upstairs to look out my window and it was
gone, so I know. So I tried explaining to him what it was,
and I was telling him about the storm the night before, and I
must have been really excited because at first he was kind of like pat in
my head, He's like, yeah, okay, buddy, but I was.
I was kind of really going and going on about it. So we
actually had to get down on my level and put his hands on my shoulders
and it was like, buddy, it didn't even rain last night, Like,
I don't know what you're talking about, okay, And I guess I
kind of dropped it. But then a couple of weeks later, my mom
woke me up in the middle of the night. Again. I don't know
if that's ten PM or like three am, but this is just a couple
of weeks later, she wakes me up, brings me downstairs, and starts
dressing me in my winter clothes. This is like April in Maine, and
you know, you don't know if it's gonna be sunny or snow, so
I'm getting like winter coat on and all that stuff. I'm like, what's
going on. I'm like half asleep, and I look over and I see
my sister and she's all bundled up and ready to go outside already, and
so my dad kind of scoops me up, and my mom grabs my sister's
hands and we all go outside onto our front lawn. And my head is
just buried in my dad's jacket and chest because it's freezing, and he's like,
buddy, you gotta look up, you gotta look up. And I
finally take my head out of his chest and I look up, and it's
the first and only time I've seen the northern lights. And I think,
at such a young age, seeing that weird lightning bolt thing and then the
Aurora borealis two weeks later instilled in me at such a young age that weird
stuff happens in the sky and I should probably pay attention. And it wasn't
until I was like a teenager when I thought back about the lightning bolt,
and I was like, that might have been the first time I ever experienced
a UFO. In my young mind, I guess saw it as a lightning
bolt or you know whatever the hell. You know, young minds due to
process something we don't understand. But that's what happened. That was my first
experience with the unknown or the stranger, if you will. All Right,
so you say that was your first experience, which means that you've had others
since. That's true. Yeah, it's really been a lifetime and it's because
I pursue it. Like I don't think I'm special in any way. I
don't think I've been chosen or anything. I don't feel as though I've ever
been abducted or anything like that. But I'm just always looking up. So
I noticed things that need to be some other people wouldn't. So I'd say
since four years old. I'm forty five now, so since four years old,
I've probably seen I think I'm up to like sixteen UFOs I've seen in
my lifetime, and that's a lot, and some of them it could have
been something else. When I say UFO, I quite literally mean the acronym
unidentified flying that has since become synonymous with extraterrestrial, which is a big reason
why the government is using UAP as opposed to UFO, you know, so
that stigma isn't there. But anyway, so I've seen sixteen of them,
and I'd say maybe ten of them could have been something else that I just
couldn't identify in the moment, but there's a good six of them where I'm
pretty sure I saw some sort of craft from another world, which sounds crazy
to say, but the same or did they look different? Because I know
they were all different. There's so many people's descriptions of the objects and beings
as described by abductees that they encounter differ from each other, they shape,
size and all that. Yeah, yeah, they definitely all differed from each
other. I think there's only two of them that were daytime and the two
daytime ones. One was like a cylinder or cigar type shape and it was
silver. And then another time, and this was probably five years before the
cylinder one, I saw a silver ball. It was quite obviously a ball
like a sphere. You could see the roundness to it, and again it
was silver and almost like a Christmas ornament, and it was kind of interesting
how I saw it it was there and that it wasn't. I was working
a different job at the time, and I had a work vehicle and I
got out of my work vehicle and just haphazardly looked up and I saw the
silver ball hovering over the river that's in the town that I was in,
and I was like, whoa, look at that. And I'm kind of
walking past the vehicle now I'm like, that's pretty crazy. I look back
just to make sure I'm not going to run into something while I'm walking,
and I actually need to go to the other side of the vehicle, so
I'm just turning to the other side of the vehicle now and I look up
again and it's gone. And I didn't even almost realize it was gone.
I was kind of staring in the sky at where it was and then I'm
like, oh, it's gone. That's crazy. Wow. And it was
just quite obviously a silver ball, and it was hovering, it was silent,
and it was it was fairly it was fairly high up there. It
wasn't celestial high. It was if there was a cloud cover, I would
have been under the cloud cover, but it was pretty high up there.
Though. It's terrible when you can't get somebody else to be a witness to
it. When I saw one of my from where I live in my development,
it was pretty empty and not too many houses when we first moved here,
and I remember seeing something this was in the daytime on the horizon and
thinking I'm going crazy, like am I really seeing this? And I got
on the phone and I called my neighbor and I said, look, cat,
you window and tell me if you see anything. And she was able
to see the same thing I did, which was cool. Nice. Yeah,
But when when my kids were at Nights Women, my two daughters and
their friend were at Nights Women, and they come running in the house,
Mom, we just saw a flying saucer, and of course they dragged him
my ass out there, and of course by the time I get there,
it's gone. And what I did with them was I brought them inside the
house and I stacked them each in different areas of the house, gave them
paper and pencil, and said draw what you saw. So you got this
for four and a half year four four and a half year old drawing her
interpretation of what she saw, and then the eight year olds the two eight
year olds, and the pictures were identical. But it was crazy cool because
it's like these kids either imagined in the mind the same thing or they actually
all saw the same thing enough, and it would be harder to believe that
they all imagine the same thing and didn't publize it to each other. Correct,
And you think this is a spontaneous moment and they all go, oh
my god, let's go get them on. I mean, they didn't have
enough time to sit there and coordinate their thoughts about what they were they were
seeing. They just saw it and came running into the house. So I
mean, if they had a day to talk about it, then I would
have said, but this was right in the moment of right after it happened,
So I tend to believe that they actually did all see the same thing.
Sure, what state was that in? In New Jersey? In Sussex
County? Yeah, Wow, we get a lot. We get a lot
of stuff going on over here because I have a paranormal team and a lot
of them like to UFO watched too. And one of my friends kind of
lives up on a mountain and he's always catching something on his phone, Like
he'll be out there and he'll see it and he'll be like okay, and
he'll get you that and he'll post it and he'll go, this is glad.
I want a night. And when I was writing my first book,
it was supposed to be just about ghost stories, local ghost stories that people
were sharing with me their encounters. And then I was getting all these people
coming to me about their UFO encounters and their Bigfoot encounters, and I'm thinking,
all right, so how am I gonna get this into a ghost book?
So I said it was Sussex County hauntings and other strange phenomena. This
way I could get all those UFO stories and Bigfoot stories into that one book.
And it was great because they were They were a large chapter to the
book because so many people have seen things and have had encounters, and I
do definitely believe it. I don't know if you saw recently in the last
few days in the news they have nine one one call like this whole neighborhood
of people, the Las Vegas stuff. Yeah, kind of similar to like
what happened in the Berkshires. The whole town was experiencing something calling nine one
one back in the sixties or seventies, was it? And here was this
this town in Las Vegas, and they were all calling nine one one,
and everybody was coming out and saying, this is what we saw, and
even the cop cameras got something strange on the camera. What are your thoughts
about that? Do you think this is just one huge fake thing or do
you think it actually happened. Well, my thoughts have kind of changed as
more things come out, which is unfair. I think that's how thoughts should
happen. They change as you get more information. And I would say initially
I was like, I can't believe a story like this is being reported in
getting out into the mainstream where you're talking about eight and ten foot tall alien
creatures running around, Like that's crazy. That's stuff that I'm researching to write
my book, and it's obscure and probably never been published before. And it's
a fascinating story that I want to retell and hopefully I can find a witness
and talk to him. But this is like a mainstream story. Now.
Then I understood that the news outlet that was reporting this is the one that
George Knapp works for in George Knapp is somebody that's been in the UFO in
ufology for decades and he has since been has connected with Jeremy Corbell and they
do a podcast together called Weaponized. But George Knapp he was the first guy
to bring out Bob Lazzar back when Bob Lazar was anonymous, you know,
to begin with, all of that was George Knapp and Skinwalker Ranch. All
of that was George Knapp and his other colleagues. So the news station and
George Knapp, all while doing this UFO stuff, is also an investigative journalist
with this news channel, local news channel in Las Vegas, and he still
works there as an investigative journalist there, and so he actually broke that story
on the news channel. And I have been such a huge fan of George
Knapp for decades. He had we're talking Skinwalker Ranch, Bob Lazar. These
are things that I've read about when I was young, you know what I
mean, Fascinated by for years now. I don't always believe everything, but
fascinated by it. But he and Jeremy over the last I don't know,
since maybe twenty eighteen, twenty nineteen, always seem to be in the right
place at the right time to get these incredible stories or incredible footage, and
that makes me not trusted as much, you know what I mean. But
that's not to say, like, because I watched video footage of the I
think he's a teenager, maybe he's twenty something. He's posted a lot of
stuff on his social media about this encounter, and he really seems genuine,
really seems genuine. And there's also rumors that there is footage of some of
these aliens. But like, where is it, you know what I mean?
Like why it's so forget the whole Georgian napp thing and forget the Jeremy
Corbell thing. Let's just go into this is such extraordinary claims. Where is
the extraordinary evidence which they say they have, you know what I mean?
Like that it should also be followed by that immediately. The only thing we've
gotten is a nine one one call and the police chest cam of seeing what
looks to me like a medior going by, which is cool and fascinating.
It happens on the same night that this thing happens, you know, that's
crazy. So those are my running thoughts, and I guess I'll end it
with I really want to believe it. I really am. Well, you
know, I'm hearing all this stuff out there in the last year or so
that something's going down because the government's been releasing all this information that the UFOs
exist and publicly discussing it. Well, they're not life for everyone on earth
will ever be changed. The government is doing more than they've ever done.
But the last thing they have done is admit that they're real that they actually
haven't done that yet. They're getting close to almost saying it by releasing some
of this stuff that they're releasing, but they refuse to admit it, and
that's been ultimately frustrating for me as a researcher and a writer. So I
can't imagine because there's tons of people that believe in disclosure and want disclosure to
happen, and I can only imagine how and saying the frustrating that must be
for the disclosure people, or I appreciate the fact that these former military people
that were exposed to certain instances are coming out and saying it and publicly vocalizing
what they experienced, which for me is something that I do believe. There's
no reason for thing to come out come out with that, it's almost like
they want to say here it's true. They say it's not, but it
happens to me, and it's kind of hard for you to dismiss that.
Yeah, I completely agree. Seeing a lot of these military guys and the
credentials that they have, in the backgrounds that they have, and some of
the footage that has come forward from these guys, it's incredible stuff, and
you're right, it's impossible to dismiss. And you know, I've been a
believer, I think since four years old, so this has been really an
amazing time to be a researcher. Yeah. Yeah, by having so much
of it in the mainstream. But with anything that does get put out into
the mainstream, there will be people that will try to come out and take
advantage of that. And that's where you also have to be, I guess,
aware of your surroundings and understand the nuances in the different stories. Don't
just read headlines, read the whole article. And not only that, the
power of mone on technology and all the things that they can do to photoshop
and create I mean, I've seen some pretty crazy videos that have happened in
the last few years where they've said this is what this person said, and
you see the actual footage that he didn't and it's kind of like, Okay,
what's going on here. It's somebody that's really good at fixing things on
video footage. Yeah, yeah, and so you know, and that's that's
been happening since the inception of upology with you know, hoax videos and hoax
pictures. You know, started with hoax stories really and then turned into hoax
pictures and now we're doing the hoax videos and it's honestly not even hoaxing anymore.
With AI, it just it looks real and you don't know what is
and what isn't and yeah, what's interesting though, I guess if something is
really clear, he can probably count on it being like AI or something.
Because even though we have like four K phone cameras now, and if you've
ever tried to take a picture of the moon or just airplane that's going over
even during the day, it's tough to get a clean, non blurry or
non pixelated picture of it, you know, when you're really zoomed in,
it's really hard to do. So, you know, that's why I think
some of the stuff that's coming out and you're seeing some of not the best
type of quality. Those are probably the ones you want to focus on a
bit more. But the hoaxes are also know that, so they all tried
to pixel and effects though it's all a crapshore. I end up saying people
when they say something to me, like why should I believe you, and
I'm like, I really don't care if you do or not. If I've
experienced talking about that's that's my experience. I'm willing to share it with you.
Take it for what it's worth. If you think it's entertainment, that's
fine. I believe it happened to me. It happened to me. I
experienced it. Whether you believe it or not, I really don't care.
And that's kind of where I leave it. Yeah, and that's and that's
where I'm at. That's where I'm at with the experiencers that I interview.
I've interviewed hundreds of people, and I can I don't believe everything, but
ninety percent of the time, maybe eighty, but a large percentage of the
time I believe that they believe it, and that's good enough for me.
I want to believe a genuine experiencer as much as I can, and when
I can interview them in person, that's one of my favorite things because I
can really look at their body language. I can hear the tone in their
voice and yeah yeah. But sometimes they don't want to and I can only
interview them over messenger or something, and that's fine too. So that's where
you have to try to ask as many questions as possible, to the point
of being annoying. But what I've learned doing it over twenty years now is
to be a kind, non judgmental year and to treat those people with respect
because it's all about it. It's all about the experiencer, and it's not
for anybody else to decide what they went through, Just like a victim of
sexual assault or something. It's not up to anybody else what happened to them
and how they should feel. It's if it's up to them. And and
what we what we are responsible for, is our reaction to them, and
I feel like it should be kind and in our phisitions, we're there to
acknowledge them and tell their story. I deal with the same thing with the
paranormal and ghost stories, when people are afraid that they're going to be ridiculed
for opening up to me. And some of these people have never told their
story and are coming and they're sharing it with me. Now, I want
to give them that respect and say, look, I believe you and we're
sharing it with the world and it's okay. Yeah yeah, So definitely you
definitely are doing it the right way because and it also helps people to feel
comfortable and open up to you more. I mean, I did a chapter
on near death experiences and I was kind of like a person a friend on
the page Facebook page. It's kind of like how I get a lot of
people involved in chapters that I'm working on, and a lot of them were
afraid to talk to an outsider. They were on this page because they wanted
to share their experience with other near death experiences. So we're not me.
This writer comes in and say, look, I'm writing about near death experiences.
If you'd like me to share your story, I'm open to listening.
When they actually came out and shared their stories, it was the first time
they'd ever spoken to an outsider and it was such a profound and personal thing
for them. And I feel this way with any kind of experience you and
a UFO encounter, and like you said, a sexual attack of some sort.
It's the same thing. They are opening up to you. They don't
want to be ridiculed. They're sharing their experience and it is such a profound
personal thing. I end up having lifelow and friendships with these people now after
writing their stories. And I take it seriously, I really do. It's
to take it constantly and seriously absolutely, and I feel that's the right way
to do it too, I think, especially in ufology, but it's also
what I'm most experienced in. But I think ufologists or writers of UFO stories
have done such a disservice over the years to experiencers where they're just trying to
get that nugget of a story and then get there and then forget the experiencer.
And without naming names, there's just I've had some of the books in
my library and those aren't books that I want to have anymore, and I
don't because it's about everything we've been talking about. Treating the experience or with
respect is what it comes down to you. And kind of funny with one
of my books, other Worldly Encounters, I kind of had the opposite issue
that you were having with your book in paranormal stories and ufone crypto stuff.
I had UFO stories and I'm like, oh, where can I fit in
these really cool, crypted and some haunted stories that I have After well,
well, instead of calling the book something with UFOs, it's called a Worldly
Encounters to try to he you guy, you know, encapsulate everything. Kind
of funny, funny paras good stories. They're so good. And I mean
these stories were not I mean some of them went back to the sixties.
Sure, it's the seventies, which are great too, and I'm going to
share them because they were great. But there were something that happened in twenty
nineteen, twenty twenty, and that's here right there. Yeah, and it
happened, and I can't deny it. And these are personal friends of mine
that are telling me the stories. I'm not gonna call them a liar,
you know what I mean. And actually one of my friends said, please
change my name, don't let them know that I'm telling you the story,
because she didn't want people think she was crazy. Sure, so it's definitely
cool to hear about this stuff. And I always ask people like, well,
what do you think is it from a different dimension? These cryptids?
Are they in or dimensional, because it's so weird to have all of these
encounters all around the world and say that it doesn't happen right, right,
And I can't deny the fact that there has to be something. We just
don't have a logical explanation for it yet. Yeah. Yeah, And for
me, over the years, my opinion on what cryptids are have certainly changed
as I've heard stories and talk to people and I've seen all these different types
of experiences. And for a while, or maybe when I was younger,
before I was doing this professionally, I was convinced that Bigfoot and Nessie and
and a chupacabra, we're all flesh and blood, undiscovered animals of some sort.
And now I'm not so sure, hearing so many stories, especially a
lot of Stan Gordon stories out of Pennsylvania that have happened where there's just all
these stories with Bigfoot disappearing or being seen at the same and yes, and
these dog man stories they seem to kind of shimmer in and out of existence,
and black eyed kids stories like the oh that still scare me. Yea.
The first time I heard about it, I was like, what,
I'm hearing things that I never even knew about like I had. I had
a certain range of things that I had heard about and grew up with and
was interested in. Like you said, Nessie was a big book. But
then all of a sudden, I'm hearing about all this other stuff I'd never
even heard about. And then you hear these people telling you stories, and
it's like, oh my gosh, it's the whole world of things. I
had no clue. There's crazy stuff out there, and people are seeing and
experiencing crazy things. And I think you had said something similar earlier, but
not all of them are making it up. There's something's happening. I'm convinced
of that. What it is, I don't know. Even with UFOs and
extraterrestrials and all that stuff, they're probably interdimensional. I have no answers.
The one thing, it's so weird. When you've done a job for so
long you feel like you've become an expert at it. I become dumber.
I think I have. I have way more questions than answers, you know
what I mean. I've been doing it for twenty years. That's a good
thing. Completely yeah, completely agree. I love that I don't know,
and I have no problem telling an experience or that I don't know. I'm
so glad you shared with me. I don't have any answers for you.
I'm so sorry. But here's here's another experience that's similar to yours that somebody
else had. See You're not crazy, right, That's been really huge?
That actually is? It definitely is. It definitely makes a difference if you
don't. You may not realize how huge that is, but it really does.
It's like, oh my gosh, I'm really not alone. And so
if I'm crazy, then they're crazy too. Yeah. Yeah, either way,
it is comforting. It's comforting not to be a pope. Yeah,
what's your opinion of Project blue Book? Because I had a civilian Nick Frashy
is his name. He's in his eighties, like eighty six, eighty seven,
and I interviewed I interviewed him on his encounter at the want of Cue
Damn back the sixties. He was a police officer at the scene event incident,
and he had a questionnaire sent to him by doctor Allen Heineck. It
was this huge packet to completely asking what he saw. The questionnaire even left
a spot to to our picture of the object if he had seen it and
they ended Project Blue Book. I think it was like in nineteen seventy.
But what is your opinion of that whole department. I've looked at a lot
of Project Bluebook files, and I think the program was the people that were
working on the program, like the Heinex and Heinex people that were immediately around
him and with him and helping him with these investigations. I think they had
the best of intentions. I mean, Project Bluebook is what turned Heineck into
a believer, you know what I mean, as opposed to a non believer,
and he came into it as a skeptic. So I think they had
the best of intentions. What Project bluebir turned into was a disinformation campaign by
the people above Heinech, you know, the people that are above the president,
the people we don't see, and turning it into see We've we looked
at twelve thousand reports and only two yeah, only two percent of them.
We're not sure because there's not many reports that are finished or are closed as
unknown. A lot of them have some sort of explanation. It's a weird
explanation, meaning they saw Jupiter, they saw this, they saw anything that
it's not the UFO, so I think it was a big disinformation campaign.
But looking at hundreds of Project blue Book files, and I'm only looking at
the main ones because I'm working on my main books, state the state of
main, so I can only imagine California and all these other states that I
haven't even looked at. But just looking at the main Project blue Book files,
there are so many little notes off the cuff, notes from this major
or this general I ranking officials. It'll say weird question mark, or it'll
say tell the witness they saw twinkling stars. Really interesting little side comments that
you can look at and see that. Okay, they kind of think a
little bit more is happening. But we've got to close this because the overall
agenda is to say UFOs don't exist. Now, you fast forward all the
way to twenty seventeen and Leslie Keene and Bluementhal they get this huge article out
in the New York Times and its it just throws a whole wrench, I
think, into the government's fighting UFOs plan. So they have to come out
and be like, Okay, we've been studying UFOs. We didn't stop with
Project blue Book. We have been studying them, and I guess we're going
to continue to because all this Navy stuff is coming out and everything. So
I feel like there's a little bit of pulling teeth or wrenching of arms saying
we've got to look into this because I think the American people and people that
are in places of government who have a belief yeah and other worldly stuff,
they are pushing their agenda a little harder. So there's a little bit more
give and taken out, which is great. But I don't think. I
don't care who's in charge in the White House, I don't think we're ever
going to get the type of disclosure that people are looking for unless it's Yeah,
unless it's some sort of crazy and this is getting into conspiracy stuff,
which I can have a real fun time going down a rabbit hole and thinking
of all these things, you know, and having fun with it. But
I don't necessarily believe them. But unless there's some sort of crazy UFO attack
that they're going to plan that is a fake invasion of some sort to distract
us from a B or C or whatever they don't want us to know about.
They've been talking about, they meaning conspiracy theorists, have been talking about
that the sixties, but it hasn't happened yet. But it feels like if
it's going to happen at any point in time, now is the time when
it's so in the mainstream. And now there's a mainstream story about eight and
ten foot tall aliens running around Las Vegas. Seems maybe we are inching towards
some some sort of planned fake invasion or a real one. You know,
I don't know what, I don't know how true it isn't that, but
I was heard it from somewhere that Heineck actually had the book that he put
out that debunked everything, because that's what he was told to do. But
he also kept another journal that said this is what really happened. And I
think that had actually even based a recent show or a documentary is something on
that version of what he felt was real. Yeah, yeah, and I
believe it was. I always forget numbers, but you know, it's two,
three, or like five percent of the original files he kept and had
a big belief in and continue to investigate on his own, which is really
interesting. And yeah, when you're looking at past Heineck quote, sometimes you've
got to know what year it came from so you know what year he was
in Project Blue Book. If it was the first year or two, it's
going to be more toting the government line. But as it gets later,
closer to sixty nine, he's different, tune different. Yeah, there are
some horrible quotes out there from Heineck, but you can dismiss them because,
oh, that's when he was a skeptic too, and the government paid him
to do a job and you guys that were called yeah, and he was
going to do a good job, and he had no reason to believe that
they were true. I got to ask you this UFO over me. Yeah,
who are the men in black? I don't know, I have no
idea, no, huh No. There's two kind of generally accepted versions of
what they might be. And it's kind of like the proto g man type
person where it's a government official dressed in black, but it's clearly human and
they're like, shut up, don't talk about UFOs, and they're kind of
just government muscle if you will, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
And then there's the other side where there it's it's clearly some sort of alien
creature of some sort, but they're trying to mimic humanity, and they're they're
wearing the black suits and the hats and sunglasses whatever. But it's quite obvious
if you were to encounter one that they aren't human, but they're still trying
to manipulate you and scare you and intimidate you. And I think like that.
So just generally speaking, I mean, that's what men and black are.
There have been some men in black experiences in Maine. And one story
I feel like it sounds like it's true, and another story I'm not really
I don't know if I buy it. And they're both from the nineteen seventies
and they actually involve It's two different stories, but there's overlapping players in both
stories. So in nineteen seventy five, these two gentlemen who were living in
southern central Maine. They hear an explosion outside one night, and it's like
two or three o'clock in the morning. They both worked the late shifts,
so they were up late. They hear this explosion. They go outside,
They're like, what the hell was that and they're not seeing anything. But
then they start to feel weird and one of the guys goes, hey,
we should go for a ride, and the other guys like, yeah,
that's a great idea. Randomly that it's not typically how they interact with each
other, or it's something they would do at that time of night, but
they felt compelled to get in the car and drive. So now they're in
the car and they're driving, and they claim while they're driving, some unseen
force takes over the driving of the car, almost like Christine, you know
from Stephen King, where the car starts driving on its own and it takes
them down to this pond and now and then the car stops, and while
they're at this pond, a fog kind of envelops the pond and the car,
and now all of a sudden, there's a big bright light in the
sky. And then the next thing they know, they're kind of sitting in
the car and they're dazed and it hurts to breathe and their eyes hurt,
and they're like, what the hell is going on? So they start up
the car. It starts, they can drive it on their own again,
and then something takes over driving the car again, and it takes them to
another area, and then two more UFOs come out of nowhere and start chasing
the car. So now they have control of the car. Again, it's
a crazy story, okay. And they finally get home and they go to
one of their parents' house. They're kind of young guys, they were like
early twenties, and they were really scared. So they went to one of
their parents house and explained what happened, and the parents believed them. The
boys were that shooken up. Let the parents believe them, and they could
see that there was some sort of injury to their face and eyes, and
they still complained of not being able to breathe very well and had hurt and
they almost were acting a bit drum, like they didn't have good balance and
stuff. So they called the police, and the police is like, well,
we don't know what the hell to do with that, so call this
person. And the person they recommended was a woman named Shirley Fickett who was
investigating UFOs in the nineteen seventies in Maine, and she took on the case
and she had other colleagues that she brought in. One of the colleagues was
a gentleman named Herbert Hopkins who was a doctor and he was like a general
practitioner, but he also had a hobby of other worldly things. He was
interested in paranormal things and he really loved sci fi pulp magazines. And he
also studied for five years how to put people under hypnosis and for them to
share their Yes. Surely had Herbert Hopkins talk to these guys. And actually
one of the guys got so scared he didn't want to do it anymore,
and he ended up moving out of state. So they ended up only dealing
with one of the one of the guys, and through the hypnosis sessions,
the gentleman who didn't leave the state, he was saying how he felt that
he was abducted, and he remembered seeing aliens, and he described what they
were wearing, and they had these weird robes clothes that they were wearing.
But and then we're tall, like five six feet, but had the big
heads and the big black eyes. And so this was all coming out,
and Herbert Hopkins was recording all of his hypnosis sessions. You fast forward about
a year and Herbert Hopkins gets a phone call one evening and it's a gentleman
who said he works for a UFO bureau out of New Jersey. Just kind
of funny, and he goes and he asked Hopkins if he could come over
and talk about the case that he was working on this guy that he's been
hypnotizing. And Hopkins is like, sure, come on, come on over.
I'll go turn the porch light on. And I figured the guy might
be there in a half hour hour or something like that. So he goes
and turns on the porch light and as he's turning on the porch light,
there's somebody walking up his steps. Oh yeah, and he's like, what
the hell? Oh god, and so they knock on the door. He
opens the door and he's like, no, I'm here to discuss the case.
And Hopkins kind of is sort of entranced by this guy and he's like,
sure, come on in. Doesn't even ask him his name, just
lets him in the house. And this was nineteen seventy five, so he
either had to been calling from some sort of building or payphone, and Hopkins
knew there was no payphone anywhere near for that guy to get there so quickly,
so he didn't understand how he called and got there so quickly. He
he's thinking about this while this guy's kind of walking in, but he also
can't do anything about it. It's almost like Jedimin tricks on him, but
he's aware of what's happening though. So the guy comes in and he sits
down. He's like, you've been talking to this guy, and long story
short, we don't want you to do that anymore. So you're going to
destroy everything that you have right now. And he goes, also, you
have two coins in your pocket. Pull out one of them. And Hopkins
is like, huh, puts his hand in his pocket and he feels two
coins. He's like, okay. He pulls out one of them and I
think it was a penny, and the man in black goes watch the penny.
So Hopkins is watching the penny in his hand and it starts to get
blurry and he's like, what the hell? And he's looking at the penny
and then it disappears, and he's like, do you know who Barney Hill
is? And Hopkins goes and Hopkins goes, yeah, because that was a
huge story obviously, plus being in England, being in New England, right,
it took place over there. Yeah. Yeah. So Hopkins is like,
yeah, I know Barney Hill. He's like, what happened to that
penny? Happened to Barney Hill's heart? That's how he died. So if
you don't listen to what I'm saying, that's going to happen to your heart
great. And Hopkins is like yeah. So Hopkins is like okay, and
the guy goes, I'm running low, I must go now, and he
started speaking more robotically, and then he started walking really slow, and then
he started Hopkins like opened the door for him, and he started going down
the stairs and he was taking like one step at a time, you know,
puts one foot down, then then the other foot next to it,
you know that the whole time. Yeah, yeah, and walking very slow,
almost elderly, if you will. And he starts going into the driveway,
but there's no car there or anything. So Hopkins is like, where
the hell, Yeah, where's he going? So he runs to the kitchen
window so he can see, like have a better view of the driveway,
and the guy's not there, but he saw like this little flash of light
sort of thinks he thinks he almost saw it. He's not sure, but
something happened and the guy's no longer there, and he's like, what the
hell. So this whole time, like Hopkins is married and he has kids.
They're adult kids, but they actually are all in a movie while this
is happening. Okay, so the guy leaves and Hopkins goes into his office.
He destroys everything. Okay he did. Yeah, yeah, he was
so scared. He destroyed everything. And when his family came home. When
his family came home, they were sitting he was sitting at the table and
he had a lot of that stuff there that was destroyed, and he also
had a gun with him because he was scared that the person might come back.
So he's sitting there and he just looks terrified. And his fai always
like, what the hell's going on? And he tells them everything and they
believe him, and his wife goes. You know, when we're at the
movies, we saw a UFO and the movie place was like twenty minutes away
from where they were. And so that as a researcher, that makes me
think, like am I putting two and two together? Here? Where was
his family? It was his family being monitored while he was visited the thing.
Right, they're large enough that they could see it twenty minutes away.
Oh wow, what a story. Yeah yeah, and uh so that's how
they kind of overlapped. And again that was just the real brief, dirty
version of it, like it gets into it tell you know, but fascinating
stuff that's happened in this yeah you know. Yeah, oh wow, that
is really really cool. Huh. Well. Even one of the stories in
that book is about four men being abducted from their can right, yeah,
yeah, us have been really strange too, absolutely, and that was a
huge story as well. Those guys were featured on Unsolved Mysteries when that was
originally on. The actually went on the Joan Rivers Show and she had a
talk show, so that kind of hit national news, like Travis Walton and
I don't it wasn't as big as Betty and Barney Hill, but it is
another huge New England story alien abduction and that happened. So what you were
saying is that this man in black was implying that Barney was killed, that
he didn't just die, that he was talking too much and they shut him
up, right right. I don't recall reading anything to see if Betty felt
the same way. I don't think that's a thing that is talked about,
and I'm pretty sure she went on to talk about it all the time.
I don't know what Hampton, she never shut up about it. But yeah,
and she was fine her right, right. So I feel that I
don't know what the difference was between her or her husband, and I don't
know. Yeah, I don't know either, other than that was the man
in black's way of using something to his advantage that didn't really happen, you
know what I mean. But scar tactic if you were. But the four
guys that were abducted in the mid seventies that happened in the Alagash Wilderness Waterway,
and it was four friends, but two of them are twin brothers and
they were actually students down in Massachusetts, and they decided to come to Maine
on their school break to you know, kind of hike and canoe and fish
and do all that stuff for like eleven days. They planned to be up
here and do all that stuff. And the first couple of days, a
few days were fine, they were having a good time. It wasn't until
oh boy, been a while since I've looked into the story, but it
was either two or four days into their trip where they were at this body
of water that had a little shore and there was a lot of people there.
There were people and barbecues and all this stuff, And while they were
there and kind of setting up their camp for the night, a bright light
just kind of appeared and everybody there saw it, and it was weird,
and a lot of people look at it and saw it, and nobody was
really talking about UFOs. They're just like, what the hell's that? And
after just a not very long it kind of blinked out, and that was
really it. So it wasn't that big of a deal. It wasn't until
like the next night or two nights later, where the four guys they were
running low on fish. They were having a hard time catching fish, so
they attempted during the day and they came back empty handed. So that night
they're finishing basically the rest of their fish, so they don't have any more
protein and that's not good if you're hiking and being out in the sun all
the time. And they still have another week, so they're like, we
need something more than just like chips, you know what I mean. We
got to catch some freaking So they go, well, let's give it.
Let's give it a try. At night, there'll be less people on the
water, maybe we'll have some luck at night. So they all agree to
this, but it's up in northern Maine, or really in Maine, almost
anywhere besides southern Maine. At night time, when it's dark and there's no
lights, you can't see anything. It's just so dark, you know,
unless the moon's out. So the guys were kind of like getting the boat
ready and everything. They're like, we're not gonna be able to see a
goddamn thing. We're not going to know how to get back. So before
they left, they decided to build this big bonfire on the shore because they
planned on being out there for a few hours, and so they had to
build a fire big enough that wouldn't burn out before they got back. So
they built a bonfire, and they did that by grabbing big limbs of branches
and other downed wood that was in the area. But they said they were
grabbing big stuff six eight ten inches around small logs, if you will,
to put on this on fire. They start the fire. It's raging.
It's this huge fire. They're now out in the boat and they're looking back
at it, and even one of the guys was kind of nagging on all
of them, like, guys, this is too big. We're going to
start a forest fire. And they kept telling them to shut up about it,
like it's gonna be fine because it was on the shore near the water.
Anyways. So now they're out in the canoe and they've been out there
for a while. They're not having a whole lot of luck. And then
that light comes back and it's right above them, but it's above them but
behind him a little bit, and one guy kind of felt like he was
being watched, so we turned around and he sees the light and he's like,
guys, what the hell's that? That's not the boat. So they
all kind of turn and look at it and like, yeah, what what
is that? That's really weird. And then the next thing they know,
they're back at the shore. The bonfire is now down to embers. Three
of the guys are standing on shore and one of the guys in the canoe
that's kind of pulled up on shore a little bit, but he's still sitting
in the canoe. Then they're all like, what just happened? Where are
we just on the water. And they were so tired and they were so
exhausted by whatever just happened that they went and sat at the picnic table and
they were thinking that they were going to try to eat something, but they
all kind of just fell asleep up. They wake up in the morning,
and the rest of their trip they kind of go through it like zombies.
They're kind of just going through the motions. It's not this big exciting thing
anymore. It wouldn't be until years later where one of the guys, he
was one of the twin brothers, started having these really weird dreams. And
in the dreams, he's surrounded by these creatures and they're looking down at him,
and he's laying down looking up at them, and he would wake up
in a puddle of sweat, and it was terrifying to him, and he's
like, why am I having these crazy apping dreams? This is the nots.
So he's starts talking to his therapist about it, and yeah, and
his therapist recommends that he talked to this UFO guy. And that UFO guy
turned out to be this gentleman named Raymond Fowler. Raymond Fowler is another legend
in the upology who has written a plethora of books. It's done a ton
of investigations on people that have been abducted, and ray Fowler found the story
interesting enough to kind of follow up with the guys interview them all and then
he gets to a point where he can get them all hypnotized and try to
get what happened to them between Yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah, And
so this was like years long process. That's not like it just came out
just like that. You know. It was a year's long process and they
pieced it all together, and it turns out it's very similar abduction scenario like
Betty Hill went through. They were brought up into the spaceship. They were
all examined, you know, semen and blood and nails and hair samples and
all this stuff, but the focus and the beans were speaking to them telepathically.
The focus was really the two twin brothers and they're trying to the aliens
were trying to figure out that whole thing and why why that's a thing with
humanity, you know, which is interesting because it's terrible to say, but
for us, I'm sure all aliens look alike to us, you know what
I mean, But they think they think twins within us is really interesting,
you know, at least that's that's their story. But again, that's a
real dirty quick version of the Alagash four story. But yeah, these four
guys who were abducted, and years later they all go under hypnosis. They
all have this same story because they were all hypnotized separately on different knights,
on different months, in different years, and they all had a very similar
story. They remember seeing each other while they were there, and this person
was doing this, and the person being hypnotized is looking at one of the
guys who had been hit ties before and they're confirming their stories under hypnosis,
which is really interesting. You know, I saw him, Tom Warner has
said from the Berkshires. He says that he and there was a female that
they had recollection of seeing each other too, So that was very interesting.
Yeah, interesting stuff. Do you think that there are alien human babies?
Boy? I don't know. He's a gentleman who has since become a really
close friend somebody that is an experiencer, and I ended up telling their story
in one of my books. Actually, the whole book is about him.
It's a book called Granites Guys, and it's about Yes, I saw that
one. Okay, that's about him. Okay, Yeah, And he's had
a lifetime of encounter. So while the whole book is about him, it's
thirty or forty different encounters he's had throughout his life since he was like three
ye two or three years old. One of the experiences that he had,
well, I guess, let me stanswer this alien human hybrid babies is.
For a long time was a ridiculous concept to me. I didn't put a
lot of thought into it. I never researched it. I'm like, that's
kind of crazy. Maybe I'll look into that some day. That day came
when Mike told me that he had gone outside to have a cigarette and he
got this weird message kind of like beamed down to him, you know,
and kind of like implanted in his head that he has a child out there.
And it was so impactful to him, and you typically hear that with
women, not so much with men, And it was so impactful to him
that when he came inside he was crying. It was such a deep feeling
of this is the truth. I was just told this, and I can't
believe I have an entity out there that's part of me. And when he
told me that, in the sincerity in which he told it to me,
and me having no reason to doubt him in any way, it kind of
changed my tune about alien human hybrids. And all that stuff. I'm still
on the fence with it, but I don't think it's ridiculous anymore. It's
all about paying attention and listening, and I was doing that with Mike,
and I was showing him kindness and I was non judgmental, and he influenced
how I think about that. There must be some reason for it too,
why they do it. I'm nature what it is, but I don't know.
I don't know if it's experiments or if this is a type of species
that's dying and this is how they're saving themselves. You know, I don't
know. Because he had a lot of benevolent encounters, which is really cool.
He also had some really shitty ones and yeah, and stuff that really
scared him. But he had a lot of benevolent ones too, which is
really cool. And if he was helping them out in some way, that's
cool with him. That's definitely cool. It certainly has sucked up his life
here and there. He's had a rough go of it, but you know,
as of late, he's doing a whole lot better. Oh that's good
with it, yeah, yea. So it's been interesting to watch his progress.
It's been really cool, you know, and that's really cool that you're
able to watch that journey is cool. Yeah, And honestly I was.
I was on his journey. It's interesting, you know how this was the
most interesting book I had ever written because it felt like I was right there
with him. It's almost like we went to war together. And that's not
to diminish people who have actually foughten. Oh, no, I understand.
It's just a feeling, that emotion, that connectment, camaraderie, and and
we don't see each other often. He lives like four or five hours away
from me, and we don't talk as often as we'd like. But he's
someone that turned into like a blood brother, you know what I mean,
because we kind of went through this agonizing together because he had to relive all
that telling it to me, and I've had my own experiences. And so
in Granted Skies, there's Mike's general story of all of his crazy encounters.
On top of that, there's a story of a man who has been struggling
almost to the point of suicide. And then a smaller layer on top of
that is my backstory and how it kind of fits into this whole narrative.
And then how in the end, it's really a story of hope. I
struggle with anxiety and depression and suicidal ideation, like to this day, I
still struggle with it. And my catalyst, well it was an extraterrestrials,
but for Mike it was. And it doesn't matter what the catalyst is.
We're still feeling those feelings of anxiety and depression, suicidal ideation regardless of the
catalysts. So we kind of bonded over that and we turned in. It's
turned into this feeling of hope, and you know, we're going to be
a forget. We can't let it own us and control us. And some
days it does and it wins, and that sucks. We can't let it
end us either. Yeah. Yeah, that's the big thing, because it
will control us some days, and it will put us, you know,
make us feel things we don't want to feel, as much as we try
to take ourselves out of it. But as long as it doesn't end us,
I think we're going to be okay. Yeah. Yeah. And for
somebody like Mike for his catalyst to be something so freaking strange and to be
able to come out and say that in on top of it that he struggles
with anxiety and depression, because people with anxiety and depression suicidal ideation. For
years, you know, mental health and mental illness has been laughed at and
poked fun at, just like experiencers. And now Mike is both of them.
Right. That really sucks, But I'm really glad we're kind of living
in now where it's not such a stigma. And even if it is a
stigma to people who don't get it, at least he's one of those people
that doesn't feel alone anymore, right, and I'm someone that doesn't feel alone
anymore. And again you found each other. Yeah, yeah, so it
happens. Everything happens for a reason. Though everything happens for a reason.
You were meant to meet and tell his story and make that connection. So
I don't believe in coincidences. I really don't. Yeah, I'm kind of
with you on that. And there was even a crazy story with hell the
book got published, and we kept saying during that process because I kept him
apprised of everything, you know, I wanted him with me, just like
he took me with him fresh Reel journey, I was taking him on the
journey of behind the scenes and what was going on just to get sure and
there was some craziness in the in the background to to get the book out,
and we kept a common thing. We kept saying to each other,
as things are happening for a reason, let's just let's just let it do
it something, let it go, let it be. Yeah, and it
and it came out, which was great. When did that come out?
What year was that? Twenty twenty? And it was like, oh,
okay, right at the start of the pandemic. It was like the worst
time to release a book, but also the best time, but we didn't
know it was the best time. Yea. Also, I know the same
thing. I mean, I was sequestered in my house for all that time,
and I just kept writing and writing and running. So I ended up
be in a whole other book out during the pandemic. So where other people
were like, I gotta get out, I'm sick and tired of being I
was in my happy place. I was just not letting it get to me
and I was just sitting at my computer and just doing my thing. So
wow, that's I'm so happy for you that you were there for him and
that you have found that relationship. That's great. Yeah, and him being
there for me, and we still are when we do call. Be like,
if I'm having such a hard time and I can't for some reason,
don't feel like I can reach out to my partner or he's on the person,
I can call. Just like if I see his number and it's ringing,
it's not just a text message, like it's his name coming up as
a phone call, I know that I should answer. He's not just being
like, hey, how are you doing. It's something there's a there's a
reason, there's a reason. Yeah. Yeah, we text if it's just
like, hey, what's going on? How you doing? Right? Phone
call is a whole other thing. Yeah, yeah, Well, thank you
so much for sharing that with me. Sure, other worldly encounters? What
do you make of crop circles? I think crop circles are really interesting.
I'm so sorry I don't have good answers because I don't know what to think
of. And it's another thing where my thoughts have evolved over time. I
think for a long time I was convinced they were made by aliens or UFOs
or something, and then that was something I did decide to like jump into
and research and really try and you know, not figure out. But I
wanted to know the stories, not just see the picture. And there are
some pictures which do look pretty good that are made by humans. That's just
a fact. It's when you test the crops in those crop circles that are
human made where they differ from other crop circles that are not made by humans,
And that's the That's also another fact. You can't not see that when
these crops are being sent out to test facilities. It's not just Joe Blow,
who believes in crop circles, is at home and doing a little test.
They're like, oh, yeah, see that. They're sending them out
to facilities to happen, and they're coming back with anomalous findings and that's freaking
weird. And when you test stuff from the ones, they're not having those
things. And also the crops just from a visual standpoint, if you're standing
inside a human one as opposed to a whatever one, the human one,
the crops are broken and the other one they're not broken. They're laid down
really nicely and they're not broken. Visually, there is some weird stuff happening
that's happened inside of them, like they've been cooked or boiled or something.
But that's like internal, So I don't know what to make of them.
I don't know what they are. It's probably some sort of interdimensional travel system
or something. I have no idea, but it's fascinating. Mmm. And
I won't keep you too much longer, but I do want to ask you
what is extra terrestrial biological entity? That is just a long form name for
an alien? Oh really? Yeah? Okay, yeah, it's like a
prescription, the name of a prescription. Yeah, why do you call it
what it is? What do you have to call it? Like somethiculous?
Of the short The shortened version of it is ebe. You know, so
if you hear people in an interview saying ebe, that's what they're talking about.
But it's become so mainstream now people are just saying aliens or extraterrestrials.
People know what they mean by that now, so it's kind of an old
phrase if you will. Oh really, yeah, okay, that's that's something
I didn't know. Well, why don't you tell the audience how they can
find all of you wonderful books and tell them about your podcast? I want
to believe? Oh sure, sure, so yeah, my podcast it's called
I Want to Believe and it's me my best buddy, and we cover a
range of paranormal topics. So we're telling black Eyed kids stories, Ufo stories,
ghost stories, dog man stories, sasquatch, a bunch of different stuff.
And you can find that literally wherever you get your podcasts. So it's
on Apple and Google and Spotify and all that good stuff. And we're on
season six right now, so we've been doing it for a little while and
it's a good time check it out. And you can just do a Google
search for I Want to Believe and Nomar Slavic and it'll come right up,
or do a search for it on your podcast app. To find my books,
you can literally google Nomar Slavic Books and it's kind of come right up.
Because my name is pretty unique, it comes up, yeah, pretty
easily. But the actual website from my online store is Slavic Store, dot
company, dot site, and that's where you are getting the books directly from
me. I signed everything, I package it up myself, and I send
it to you if you buy it anywhere else, I still get the money
for but you're not getting the agraphs copy. Yeah, yeah, but you
know you can also get them on Amazon and you know a lot of other
places you get books, but yeah, yeah, it's pretty much it.
Well, thank you so much. I really enjoyed our conversation. I appreciate
you coming on with me tonight. Yeah this was fun. Thank you so
much. Thank you. And to listeners. If you liked listening to this
week's episode and you're into all things paranormal, check out my other show,
Eleanor Wagner's Creeping It Real podcast out of the Coast to Coast Entertainment Network,
which is available wherever you get your podcasts. And if any of you are
interested in reading any of my books, you can find the links to them
on my website, author Eleanor Wagner dot com. I write about the history
of the town and location, add the paranormal story to the mix, and
finish it all off with photos and evidence. Everybody loves a good ghost story,
but there's nothing better than a true ghost story, so check it out
Wanthor Eleanor Wagner dot com. Thank you, ghostly listeners. You can follow
me on my website, author Eleanor Wagner dot com, where there are links
to my books and video updates and photographs. Thank you. Paranormal enthusiasts for
tuning in today. I hope you'll come back again. Remember to tap into
your own gifts, everyone has them, and in the meantime, make sure
you're creeping it. Neil