1 00:00:15,919 --> 00:00:20,679 What is up, fellow thermonuclear a efforts. I am Damp Valley coming at 2 00:00:20,719 --> 00:00:26,039 you with our third of six installments on this NBA what If project very quickly. 3 00:00:26,079 --> 00:00:29,160 If this is your first time listening to the podcast, episodes aren't always 4 00:00:29,160 --> 00:00:32,840 this short. This is just meant to sort of some digestible audio content, 5 00:00:32,840 --> 00:00:37,880 which also coincides with a stretch of time in which I'm traveling. But please 6 00:00:37,920 --> 00:00:42,280 consider throwing us that permanent subscription. Tell us, tell people about us who 7 00:00:42,280 --> 00:00:45,640 you know enjoy basketball and are looking for more podcast listens, or just help 8 00:00:45,719 --> 00:00:49,119 us promote the podcast on Twitter. You could shout us out. I will 9 00:00:49,200 --> 00:00:52,600 retweet you at Hardwood Knox, I'm at Damp Valley, FA v al E. 10 00:00:53,000 --> 00:00:56,399 All our socials are in the description as sort of a brief refresher before 11 00:00:56,399 --> 00:01:00,280 we get started. I'm going through these quick what ifs for every franch eyes. 12 00:01:00,359 --> 00:01:03,079 I did this project for Bleacher Report. You can find the full article 13 00:01:03,159 --> 00:01:07,239 with every team's results in the podcast description. I ask people who cover, 14 00:01:07,719 --> 00:01:11,719 follow, or root for every single NBA team what their biggest what if is 15 00:01:12,000 --> 00:01:17,000 for the organization. A lot skewed more recently, that was totally fair game 16 00:01:17,599 --> 00:01:21,480 looking at just the you know, not recency bias, but just recent recent 17 00:01:21,519 --> 00:01:23,680 history. I think that matters. Some went a little bit more into the 18 00:01:23,680 --> 00:01:26,599 past. It was all very informative and it forces us to kind of think 19 00:01:26,640 --> 00:01:32,480 about these ripple effects, what could have beens. Are some franchise franchises even 20 00:01:32,480 --> 00:01:36,319 still reeling or filling the feeling the I don't even call it ill effects, 21 00:01:36,319 --> 00:01:40,959 but the ramifications of these one ifs. It's an instructive exercise. Let me 22 00:01:41,000 --> 00:01:42,519 know what yours are for these teams, whether you're fans of them or just 23 00:01:42,599 --> 00:01:47,040 rooting for the NBA in general. I think they bring up some interesting discussions, 24 00:01:47,799 --> 00:01:51,400 but I think it's a good time to really cannonball into the Central Division. 25 00:01:51,719 --> 00:01:57,280 We begin with the Chicago Bulls, and I spoke with Morton stig Jensen 26 00:01:57,359 --> 00:02:00,920 from TV to play in the NBA podcast for this. He ended up disagreeing 27 00:02:00,959 --> 00:02:04,640 with my moment, but you know, like, let's just start this off. 28 00:02:04,640 --> 00:02:07,480 What if Michael Jordan never retired the first time? What if Derek Rose 29 00:02:07,560 --> 00:02:10,120 never towards ACL during the twenty twelve playoffs. What if we were all spared 30 00:02:10,159 --> 00:02:15,639 from the three Alpha's era. What if the organization had mercifully moved on from 31 00:02:15,680 --> 00:02:19,960 the Gar Foreman and John packs in front office regime, unaffectionately known as gar 32 00:02:20,039 --> 00:02:24,520 Packs much sooner. Those were the flash Bowl moments that first went off inside 33 00:02:24,520 --> 00:02:30,360 my mindful when brainstorming for these Chicago Bulls. But Mort he came up with 34 00:02:30,400 --> 00:02:32,520 something different. He disagreed. This is what he wrote to me. I'd 35 00:02:32,560 --> 00:02:36,719 like to go back to the twenty seventeen NBA Draft, when the Bulls decided 36 00:02:36,719 --> 00:02:40,439 to trade Jimmy Butler after inexplicably pairing him with Rajon Rondo and an aging Dwayne 37 00:02:40,479 --> 00:02:44,439 Wade this season before. Because every time you set up your star player to 38 00:02:44,439 --> 00:02:47,360 fail, you've got to do it right gar Packs. In the trade, 39 00:02:47,360 --> 00:02:52,879 mort continued, The Bulls also inexplicably forked over the sixteenth pick in the draft 40 00:02:52,919 --> 00:02:57,599 to the Minnesota Timberwolves. Given that the former Bulls front office regime consisted of 41 00:02:57,639 --> 00:03:01,599 horrible negotiators negotiators, excuse me, Let's use our what if card on that 42 00:03:01,759 --> 00:03:07,120 and ask what if the Bulls got the twenty seventeen NBA Draft right, Assuming 43 00:03:07,120 --> 00:03:09,719 they wouldn't have given up number sixteen, the Bulls who would have then acquired 44 00:03:09,879 --> 00:03:15,120 Chris Dunn, Zach Levine, and Minnesota's seventh overall pick for Butler would have 45 00:03:15,199 --> 00:03:19,800 been armed with the seventh and sixteenth selections. Instead of going for lowry Marketing 46 00:03:19,800 --> 00:03:23,080 at number seven, the organization could have gone all in on bam Adebayo, 47 00:03:23,360 --> 00:03:25,439 who would have given them a proper two way big man instead of the one 48 00:03:25,479 --> 00:03:30,360 dimensional Marketing who provided nothing but frustration to the Bulls fan base for four seasons. 49 00:03:30,759 --> 00:03:35,120 While the general public was surprised to see Adebayo's full game in the NBA 50 00:03:35,199 --> 00:03:38,639 compared to the limited version they saw at Kentucky, most scouts had seen him 51 00:03:38,719 --> 00:03:43,039 during practices and new there was more to him. Proper scouting from the side 52 00:03:43,039 --> 00:03:46,400 of the Bulls could have unearthed that, and with the sixteenth pick, the 53 00:03:46,439 --> 00:03:49,639 Bulls could have swung a trade with Denver, who dealt the thirteenth pick to 54 00:03:49,719 --> 00:03:53,199 Utah for Trey Lyles and the twenty fourth selection. Relinquishing the sixteenth pick in 55 00:03:53,240 --> 00:03:58,439 that trade as well as Denzel Valentine, who still had hope in twenty seventeen 56 00:03:58,520 --> 00:04:00,919 for anyone who was wondering, would have been a far more attractive package and 57 00:04:00,960 --> 00:04:04,919 allowed the Bulls to pick Donovan Mitchell for themselves. If Denver wanted Bobby Portis 58 00:04:04,960 --> 00:04:09,520 and Klamer Titch instead. So be it if you're keeping score at home, 59 00:04:09,680 --> 00:04:13,199 the what if Bulls now have a new core of Levigne, at a, 60 00:04:13,240 --> 00:04:19,480 Bio and Mitchell This intrigues me. Jenten also noted that the Bulls Lord also 61 00:04:19,519 --> 00:04:23,839 noted that the Bulls Cash consideration their way out of the number thirty eight pick 62 00:04:23,879 --> 00:04:27,000 in this draft, a selection that could have technically been used on Dylan Brooks, 63 00:04:27,000 --> 00:04:30,879 Isaiah Hartenstadt, Monte Morris, or even Thomas Bryant. My issue here 64 00:04:30,879 --> 00:04:32,959 is this is a complicated set of transactions that no team probably hits on in 65 00:04:33,000 --> 00:04:38,120 full. It's also a worthwhile vortex to journey down. Knowing the Bulls extracted 66 00:04:38,120 --> 00:04:43,040 plenty of championship equity from MJ and that pre injury d Rolls d Ros always 67 00:04:43,079 --> 00:04:46,480 would have ran into the Big Three era heat. It sort of makes the 68 00:04:46,519 --> 00:04:53,600 idea that they got this two thousand and I'm sorry, this two seventeen draft 69 00:04:53,680 --> 00:04:58,040 wrong hits that much harder. What would be your biggest one for the Bulls? 70 00:04:58,199 --> 00:05:02,040 Let me know. We move on to the Cleveland Cavaliers, though thinking 71 00:05:02,040 --> 00:05:05,360 about the sheer number of what if moments for the Cleveland Cavaliers since Lebron James 72 00:05:05,399 --> 00:05:09,439 entered the league can get overwhelming. What if he never left the first time? 73 00:05:09,560 --> 00:05:12,160 What if he never came back? What if the Golden State Warriors never 74 00:05:12,160 --> 00:05:15,560 added Kevin Durant twenty sixteen? How many titles would Lebron second go round in 75 00:05:15,560 --> 00:05:19,120 Cleveland? Feature? Would Kyrie every never request a trade? Will Lebron never 76 00:05:19,120 --> 00:05:24,360 be incentivized to join the Los Angeles Lakers? My head hurts. Justin Rowan 77 00:05:24,399 --> 00:05:27,920 of the Chasdown podcast felt a similar way when I posed this exact question to 78 00:05:28,040 --> 00:05:30,240 him. Here's what he wrote. This is a ridiculously tough one, as 79 00:05:30,240 --> 00:05:32,959 there are so many what ifs, right down to if the Calves trade for 80 00:05:33,040 --> 00:05:38,399 the Marcus Aldridge instead of Kevin Love in twenty fourteen? Did the Warriors get 81 00:05:38,399 --> 00:05:42,439 to execute their Plan A and trade some combination of Harrison Barnes, Draymond gen 82 00:05:42,639 --> 00:05:46,800 Green and Klay Thompson for Love In the end, though, Rowan settles on 83 00:05:46,839 --> 00:05:49,519 the mega what if that is the twenty fifteen finals, when Kyrie suffered a 84 00:05:49,560 --> 00:05:54,399 fractured left kneecap after Love was already sidelined with the shoulder injury, and the 85 00:05:54,439 --> 00:05:59,439 Calves fell to the not yet Dynastic Warriors, so many issues between Kyrie and 86 00:05:59,480 --> 00:06:03,720 lebronlossomed from that moment. Rowan wrote with Lebron questioning whether Kyrie was hurt throughout 87 00:06:03,759 --> 00:06:08,439 the playoffs and feeling like he'd play through it. A lot of the reporting, 88 00:06:08,439 --> 00:06:11,720 even at the time, suggested that when Kyrie went down it created a 89 00:06:11,759 --> 00:06:15,720 significant fissure in the relationship. There's the immediate question of whether they would win 90 00:06:15,759 --> 00:06:18,519 in two and fifteen if Kyrie was healthy, but the long term implications are 91 00:06:18,560 --> 00:06:23,399 fascinating as well. I agree with Rowan, this feels like the right call, 92 00:06:23,560 --> 00:06:26,800 though I still can't shake the Katie element of everything. How many titles 93 00:06:26,800 --> 00:06:30,120 do the Calves win if he doesn't go to Golden State. His twenty sixteen 94 00:06:30,120 --> 00:06:34,600 free agency decision, made possible by an unprecedented salary cap spike didn't directly involve 95 00:06:34,639 --> 00:06:39,920 the Calves, but it's sure as hell impacted them more than any other title 96 00:06:40,000 --> 00:06:46,720 contender at the time. Next up, the Detroit Pistons. When I posed 97 00:06:46,720 --> 00:06:49,800 this question to Lazarus Jackson of SPI Nations Detroit bad Boys, I said something 98 00:06:49,839 --> 00:06:56,000 to the effect of, it's clearly the Pistons decision to take Darko Militates in 99 00:06:56,000 --> 00:07:00,680 two thousand and three over Carmelo Anthony right wrong. This is what Las wrote 100 00:07:01,079 --> 00:07:06,120 Darko over Chris Bosh, not Carmelo Anthony is up there for sure, and 101 00:07:06,120 --> 00:07:10,199 I've been on that for a while. He then proceeded to point out how 102 00:07:10,240 --> 00:07:13,800 I was wrong a second time. This is what he wrote. But I'd 103 00:07:13,800 --> 00:07:16,040 like to bring up another one. What if Isaiah Thomas didn't turn his ankle 104 00:07:16,079 --> 00:07:20,319 in Game six of the nineteen eighty eight Finals. Everyone remembers the forty three 105 00:07:20,360 --> 00:07:25,319 point heroics on that turned ankle. The visual of the shortest guy on the 106 00:07:25,319 --> 00:07:28,639 court limping up and down the floor willing his team to stay in the game 107 00:07:28,879 --> 00:07:32,319 is etched into NBA lore. But the Pistons lost Game six despite Isaiah's best 108 00:07:32,319 --> 00:07:35,560 efforts, and he had nothing left in Game seven, when he had ten 109 00:07:35,600 --> 00:07:40,959 points on four of twelve shooting with seven assists. Still last continued. The 110 00:07:41,000 --> 00:07:44,879 Pistons only lost Game six and seven by one and three points, respectively. 111 00:07:45,240 --> 00:07:47,519 What if Isaiah didn't turn the ankle and the Pistons won Game seven on the 112 00:07:47,639 --> 00:07:51,879 road in the forum instead of a mere back to back, Detroit would become 113 00:07:53,000 --> 00:07:57,240 at the time, the third NBA franchise to win three consecutive championships, and 114 00:07:57,279 --> 00:08:01,480 the first to do it since the nineteen sixties. Isaiah wins three in a 115 00:08:01,560 --> 00:08:05,319 row, something Larry Bird and Magic Johnson never did, and beats both of 116 00:08:05,360 --> 00:08:07,319 them in the playoffs to do it while going two and oh against Magic in 117 00:08:07,360 --> 00:08:11,120 the finals. Is he the greatest point guard of all time? With that 118 00:08:11,160 --> 00:08:16,199 resume, this was a fantastic rabbit hole by Laz. I've personally always used 119 00:08:16,199 --> 00:08:20,839 the Isaiah Thomas injury as typical collateral damage of a larger championship window for a 120 00:08:20,839 --> 00:08:24,319 team that won multiple titles, but the implications it had on how he and 121 00:08:24,319 --> 00:08:31,360 the Pistons are remembered today, it hasn't really, Honestly, It's seldom, 122 00:08:31,399 --> 00:08:35,480 if ever, crossed my mind. The greatest point guard debate in particular probably 123 00:08:35,519 --> 00:08:39,399 sounds extremely different, and here's what Laz had to say about that. Detroit's 124 00:08:39,440 --> 00:08:43,399 championships are often thought as in terror gendums. That was a fantastic word. 125 00:08:43,399 --> 00:08:46,879 By the way, little whips between the real story of the NBA, the 126 00:08:46,919 --> 00:08:50,320 Celtics and the Lakers and Michael Jordan. The two thousand and four Pistons are 127 00:08:50,320 --> 00:08:54,519 still the asterisk champions everyone remembers those finals as one the Lakers lost, as 128 00:08:54,519 --> 00:08:58,679 if they didn't get their asses whooped for the entirety of that series. A 129 00:08:58,720 --> 00:09:03,279 three peat in Detroit, during theba's ascension into the global entity it is today, 130 00:09:03,720 --> 00:09:07,559 was scarely squarely etched the Pistons into NBA lore in a way I think 131 00:09:07,559 --> 00:09:11,279 more accurately represents just how good this team was. I have zero qualms were 132 00:09:11,279 --> 00:09:15,559 alternatives to go against laz at this point. That was a fantastic pick and 133 00:09:15,600 --> 00:09:20,240 he outlaid outlined it beautifully for the Pistons. Next up is the Indiana Pacers. 134 00:09:20,720 --> 00:09:26,759 The most powerful what ifs are those that invoke emotions not just for the 135 00:09:26,840 --> 00:09:31,639 particular moment and its implications, but many of its predecessors. What doesn't happen 136 00:09:31,679 --> 00:09:33,879 can sometimes be a culmination, the apex or conclusion in a long line of 137 00:09:33,960 --> 00:09:39,639 nagging memories that combined a sense of what could have been and business unfinished to 138 00:09:39,759 --> 00:09:43,440 gnaw at your fandom. Indie corn Roses Caitlyn Cooper, otherwise known around these 139 00:09:43,480 --> 00:09:48,679 parts as the Goat, found this what if moment for the Indiana Pacers. 140 00:09:48,440 --> 00:09:52,320 Here's what she wrote when Lebron James knocked down a three pointers time expired to 141 00:09:52,440 --> 00:09:56,759 seal Game five for the Cavaliers in twenty eighteen. It immediately brought back shades 142 00:09:56,799 --> 00:10:00,799 of his game winning lay up against the Pacers and Game one of the twenty 143 00:10:01,039 --> 00:10:05,600 thirteen Eastern Conference Finals, not only because both nell biding and inexcusably uninhibited displays 144 00:10:05,639 --> 00:10:11,159 of the four time MVP's greatness came at the heartbreaking expense of the Pacers when 145 00:10:11,200 --> 00:10:13,759 they had the chance to take a series lead, but also because each was 146 00:10:15,039 --> 00:10:20,039 in part the product of the sort of defensive breakdowns which forever leave a maddening 147 00:10:20,039 --> 00:10:24,360 trail of unanswerable questions. Ignore the missed goaltend that would have put the Pacers 148 00:10:24,440 --> 00:10:26,879 up ninety seven to ninety five. For a second, Lebron went for three 149 00:10:28,039 --> 00:10:31,039 when the game was tied, and put aside whether Roy Hibbert should have been 150 00:10:31,039 --> 00:10:35,159 in the game. Switching everything better allows for making snap judgment calls. After 151 00:10:35,200 --> 00:10:39,360 all, just as Daddy Is Young got snagged on a screen, Kaitlyn continued, 152 00:10:39,399 --> 00:10:43,279 allowing Lebron to shoot more comfortably. Moving to his left, Paul George 153 00:10:43,519 --> 00:10:48,720 made an awful error in overplaying the generational talent, giving him the lane to 154 00:10:48,720 --> 00:10:52,879 the basket. Meanwhile, Sam Young lacked the court awareness to slide over quickly 155 00:10:52,960 --> 00:10:56,919 enough to take a charge, and Nate McMillan held on to a timeout and 156 00:10:56,000 --> 00:11:01,440 a foul to give with Bowion Magdonovitch loosely contesting the inbounds pass rather than doubling 157 00:11:01,519 --> 00:11:07,720 Lebron when fat already had five fouls. In both cases, Caitlyn finishes with 158 00:11:07,759 --> 00:11:11,200 the sequel being a bad remake of the original. The Pacers are left to 159 00:11:11,200 --> 00:11:15,639 wonder whether they beat themselves or cemented their status as tough outs against all time 160 00:11:15,720 --> 00:11:18,519 greats. They lasted seven games against Jordan's Bulls, won three straight, only 161 00:11:18,639 --> 00:11:22,200 drop game six of the NBA Finals against the Kobe shack Lakers, and lost 162 00:11:22,240 --> 00:11:26,399 on a crucial end of game possession by once in a lifetime player. I 163 00:11:26,440 --> 00:11:30,559 also think you could make cases for Malice at the Palace to appear here, 164 00:11:31,039 --> 00:11:35,279 but aside from that being overdiscussed, it doesn't typify the Pacers's run as generational 165 00:11:35,320 --> 00:11:41,559 irritants in the Eastern Conference. The moment and moments that Caitlin's outlined absolutely up. 166 00:11:41,679 --> 00:11:46,279 Next. To wrap up the Central Division, we have the Milwaukee Bucks. 167 00:11:46,440 --> 00:11:50,039 Shout out to the eurosteps Tie Windish for ensuring we didn't have any shared 168 00:11:50,120 --> 00:11:56,440 moments between two franchises. Spoiler alert. One of the Warrior's biggest what ifs 169 00:11:56,679 --> 00:12:00,679 has to be keeping Steph Curry in the Andrew Boga trade. I presoomed something 170 00:12:00,720 --> 00:12:03,840 like, what if the Bucks had actually acquired Steph would be the choice for 171 00:12:03,440 --> 00:12:07,600 windition of Milwaukee. It wasn't, and Ty went a route that I don't 172 00:12:07,639 --> 00:12:11,960 think it was popular among the public, but I respect it and the way 173 00:12:11,000 --> 00:12:13,879 that he explained it. Here's what he wrote to me. What if Jabari 174 00:12:15,000 --> 00:12:18,600 Parker stayed healthy is my choice for the Bucks? Maybe just because I still 175 00:12:18,600 --> 00:12:20,840 feel bad for Jabari based on how his career has played out to this point. 176 00:12:22,240 --> 00:12:24,919 Given what Yannis Attenta Kopo blossomed into, there was no shot that that 177 00:12:26,039 --> 00:12:28,759 Jabari would be the MJ de Yannis's Pippin, which is a pipe dream Bucks 178 00:12:28,799 --> 00:12:33,600 fans held in twenty fourteen, but at the time, the whole hope of 179 00:12:33,639 --> 00:12:37,440 the franchise was thrust squarely onto Jabari's shoulders. There was something truly special about 180 00:12:37,440 --> 00:12:43,200 a top prospect wanting to play in Milwaukee. The same magic that swirls around 181 00:12:43,240 --> 00:12:46,960 Yannis after he chose to stay the city was starting to get excited about the 182 00:12:46,960 --> 00:12:48,759 Bucks for the first time in a long time when they got the second pick 183 00:12:48,799 --> 00:12:52,320 and used it on him. Jabari's rookie year started slow, with some positive 184 00:12:52,360 --> 00:12:56,679 signs he could be the alpha wing score he was billed as until he tores 185 00:12:56,720 --> 00:13:00,000 ACL. He got back in time for most of his sophomore season and continued 186 00:13:00,039 --> 00:13:03,039 to score well within the ARK, but it wasn't until his third season when 187 00:13:03,080 --> 00:13:05,759 it seems like he had overcome the injury entirely and was developing into a dominant 188 00:13:05,799 --> 00:13:09,120 talent, just as Jannis made his own leap into being an All Star. 189 00:13:09,519 --> 00:13:13,960 They both averaged twenty plus points that season, and Jabari finally started knocking down 190 00:13:15,000 --> 00:13:18,679 threes, going from around twenty five percent in his first two seasons to thirty 191 00:13:18,720 --> 00:13:22,799 six thirty six point five percent that year, while also adding an assist per 192 00:13:22,799 --> 00:13:26,279 game to his talian scoring better than ever within the ARC alongside Chris Middleton, 193 00:13:26,600 --> 00:13:33,159 Jannis and Jabari seemed poised to be the next big homegrown squad until disaster struck 194 00:13:33,240 --> 00:13:37,200 and Jabari toured the same ACL again. This is interesting to me imagining what 195 00:13:37,240 --> 00:13:41,039 the Bucks might look like now had Jabari never suffered a second or initial acl 196 00:13:41,120 --> 00:13:46,799 Tare almost feels impossible. Does he satisfy the requirements for a costar or do 197 00:13:46,840 --> 00:13:50,840 the Bucks inevitably move him for someone else. I still think either is a 198 00:13:50,879 --> 00:13:54,879 wild proposition for someone whom the Bucks eventually let walk for nothing. I still 199 00:13:54,919 --> 00:13:58,320 would have probably picked though, what if Milwaukee had traded for Steph Curry in 200 00:13:58,360 --> 00:14:01,879 exchange for boke It? I also might have gone with what if creamum Pools 201 00:14:01,919 --> 00:14:07,720 your bar never left? But if fantastic stuff from pie Hope you enjoyed the 202 00:14:07,799 --> 00:14:13,159 latest edition of MBA what Ifs. Until next time, remember to subscribe wherever 203 00:14:13,159 --> 00:14:16,240 you get your podcasts, and also remember forever that we must leave you with 204 00:14:16,279 --> 00:14:20,440 a shout out to the one, the only, the indelible Frank You like you