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You're listening to the Mind Over Murder
podcast. My name is Bill Thomas.

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I'm a writer, consulting, producer, and now podcaster. I am now

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trying to use my experience as the
brother of a murder victim to help other

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victims of violent crime. I'm working
on a book on the unsolved Colonial Parkway

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murders and I'm the co administrator of
the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook group together with

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Kristin Dilly. My name is Kristin
Dilly. I'm a writer, a researcher,

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a teacher, and a victim's advocate, as well as the social media

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manager and co administrator for the Colonial
Parkway Murders Facebook page with my partner in

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crime, Bill Thomas. Welcome to
Mind Ever Murder. I'm Kristin Dilly and

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I'm Bill Thomas, and we're joined
today by Joe Jackaloone, former commanding officer

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of the Cold Case Squad in the
New York Police Department and author of the

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Cold Case Handbook. Joe, thank
you for joining us today. Thanks for

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having me, guys, Joe,
We're so excited to have you. We've

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been talking about having you on for
what seemed like months, and now we

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feel like there's no time like the
present, so we really appreciate your taking

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the time. No problem. So
before we get into a discussion with you

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on the Long Island serial killer slash
Go Go Beach killer, however we're referring

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to him these days as well as
talking about your new books, start by

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telling us about your background with the
NYPD. Okay, I got on in

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the New York City Police Department in
nineteen ninety two. I got promoted a

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sergeant relatively quick nineteen ninety nine,
and I worked in i Worke start off

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of the Bronx and I went to
Brooklyn Noll Out therefter, I got promoted

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and I ended up into the Denctive
Squad one ten, precingcan Queens, and

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then eventually worked my way into the
cold case squad in the Bronx. And

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yeah, no, it was a
good career of the out. I think

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it'll be eleven years this October,
so it's it's gone by quick. Most

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police officers serve for what twenty years? Is that a fairly typical career that's

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changed now So when my group got
in, there was still twenty years.

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Now I believe it too. They
have to do twenty five before they can

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leave. Wow, would you have
stayed longer? If you could have,

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I would have stayed longer. But
like everything else, the boss makes or

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breaks your job. And got tired
of my boss. So it became one

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of those things where, just like
a lot of other people, it's just

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the boss makes or breaks things,
and after a while you just can't deal

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with it anymore. When you have
that opportunity to leave, you know,

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you just look for that door.
And then you moved into a whole second

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career now as a college professor and
consultant. What other hats do you wear?

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Yeah? Actually I was teaching while
I was still working. So I've

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been at John Jay now. This
January will be eighteen years. So I

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always kid my students. I'm like, you guys are struggling to get through

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your four years. I'll be this
is my fourth BA. You didn't want

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to think about it. So if
I could do four, you could do

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I could do four of these,
you could do one. It's just one

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of those things where teaching has been
something I wanted to do alsough I was

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able to do it, and at
a college level too, and at John

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Jay it's been pretty nice. It's
fellow teacher here, So thank you very

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much for all that you do.
I know it's not easy. I do

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it with high schoolers, but I
imagine college is maybe a little bit more

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difficult. Yeah, it's like over
the years, there's, like everything else,

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you get your own feel for things. So when you first thought out,

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when you don't know exactly what to
expect. But at John Jay you're

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dealing with most of the kids want
to do some sort of law enforcement work,

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so it makes things easy. So
you're not trying to I'm not teaching

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the math, that's the first of
all. I can't do math. But

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I'm not teaching the math and English
and all those other subjects they don't want

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to take. I'm teaching them the
actual core courses that they want to take.

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So my job is actually pretty easy
because they want to hear the stuff.

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They want to learn about this.
Then they want to read, and

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they want to get in and get
involved in it, so it's it's been

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easier. Are the students that you're
teaching at John Jay are they working full

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time in law enforcement or are they
transitioning to full time work. What's a

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typical student if there is such a
thing. The majority of the undergraduate students

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are younger adults, so they're going
through their college years nineteen twenty twenty one.

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Many of them want to do some
sort of law enforcement work, whether

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it's at the local level, state
or federal. We even have a lot

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of people that want to become lawyers. That's their fault, but that's what

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they want to do it that's fine, but I always kid them, but

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it is what it is. Right. If they want to do forensic science,

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if they want to do all of
those kinds of classes, that's the

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kind of things that we encourage.
It's actually been a great program and it

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makes a more well rounded student because
you have, like I said before,

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you have kids that want to do
this. It's kind of interesting. But

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we do have older cops that they
want to go back to school and get

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their degree, finish it up.
So you do have a couple of them

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sprinkled through, but the overwhelming majority
I just refer to them as kids because

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all of those are much older than
them, so I can't afford to call

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them that. But it's it's exciting
in a way because I remember when I

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was that young in anticipating working and
you can see many of them. That's

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kind of looking it, right.
We know that you just wrote a book,

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the called case Handbook, and we're
going to ask you to talk a

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little bit about that. But I
am curious, are you going to use

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your own book in your college course? Because I can't think of anything cooler.

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Really. Actually, yeah, this
was my second book, right,

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So I actually I spent my pandemic
months whatever it was, I spent them

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writing, right. So this year
I had the fourth edition of my first

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book come out, The Criminal Investigative
Function, a gude for new investigators.

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And I'll tell you a quick funny
story that's now when it's fourth edition.

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When I was teaching the investigations class, I used to complain to my fellow

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in Disruptors. I used to say, every book that they have, it's

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all kind of academic. There's really
nothing near about how to solve the case.

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And they got tired of hear me
complains of one of the finals,

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Well, just write your own damn
book already. So I said, all

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right, challenge accept it. So
I wrote it. It really took off.

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It's written in an easy format to
read, right. The kids really

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like it. There was a number
of professors that have been using my textbook

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not only in John Jay but across
the country and for a number of years

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New Jersey I used it for their
police promotional exams as part of the Civil

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Service test. WOW. So that
was a kind of a nice validation for

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me. And then this book I
had actually started writing during the pandemic.

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The Cold Case Handbook is based on
my experiences that I had and then watching

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what's been happening in the public eye
over the last few years in policing,

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because I watched it very closely and
knowing that the cold cases were going to

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suffer even more during what I refer
to as the Great Resignation and retirement.

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So we've had this issue for a
long time about cold cases. It's getting

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worse, not getting any better,
and the problem that we deal with is

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going to it's going to become exponential. I wrote this book not only for

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the cops, but I also wrote
it for family members and for those true

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crime advocates out there, because listen, the way things are going and policing,

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the future really lies within the general
public on trying to help close these

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cases. Because there are not going
to be enough cops. It discontinues,

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so That was one of our questions, Joe, is the Cold Case Handbook

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your brand new book? Is it
something that civilians can read and understand?

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Absolutely, it's not full of cops
speak. It's of course, it's geared

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towards the law enforcement executive generally because
he or she is the one that really

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can make the changes within the department, and I call for a lot of

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those changes. There is a lot
of talk about reform, and I try

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to tell people that the work reform
is not synonymous with good. A lot

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of the reforms that people have demanded
and requested have not really been not only

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good for the police department, but
it hasn't been good for the general public.

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The reforms that I'm calling for in
this guide would help not only the

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police department, but help the victims'
families and changing mindsets. And one of

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those things is about being more transparent
with these cases in regards to when outsiders

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are trying to get access to these
things, instead of denying everything with a

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blanket. Where this case is still
under investigation, Come on, this case

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is thirty years old. It's not
under investigation. For any of us who

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want to buy your book, and
I am one of them. Where do

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we go to find your book?
Can we find it at Barnes and Noble.

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Do we order it through John Jay? Do we order it through you?

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They can get it through Amazon,
but the publisher is Blue three sixty

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Media, and if you buy it
directly from Blue three sixty, they'll give

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you the electronic copy included in it
for another dollar or two, whatever it

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is. I've gotten a lot of
good feedback already from this book. I've

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had actually a couple of universities as
as a matter of fact, I'm going

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out to Indiana to speak at Purdue
University about this. So yeah, they're

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having their second Cold Case Symposium.
I'll be going out there in Hamburg.

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So it's sooner rather than later.
And I'm heading to of course, I've

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got my fourth invite to Crime Con. I'm going next week. I'm going

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down to the mid Atlantic Cold Case
Homicide Investigators Association about So I'm doing a

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lot of traveling with this, but
I'm excited because I can actually get a

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chance to speak to the people who
are actually involved in doing this. Because

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the obstacles that you deal with are
the executives in the police departments, and

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that's an end the organization, but
great feedback from your peers, and now

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people are adopting the book for use
in training classes, college programs and so

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on. Yes. Absolutely. I've
actually got a couple of people that I

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don't even know on LinkedIn, So
I got the book. This is great.

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I'm going to start using it at
work. I have had cold case

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investigators and all those other things that
come up. So when you get that

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kind of validation, you think that
it might have hit a good spot because

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you don't know how these things are
going to land, right, you don't

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know there are there aren't a lot
of textbooks out there about how to solve

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the cold case. There's a couple, and I hate calling it the textbook

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because it's you get that word textbook
and you just think of, oh my

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god, phonics and all those other
kind of things. It's really that's why

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one of the that's why I wanted
to call it a handbook. Right,

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it's easy to read. It's and
it's easy to read because I write,

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and I probably at a fifty sixth
grade level, So everyone read it's.

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I tell people, listen, I'm
no genius. If I could do this,

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anybody can do it. It's like
everybody is an expert on something.

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It just so happened that this was
my line of work, and I decided

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to try to spin it into something
that could actually help other people. If

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you think about it, everyone is
an expert on something. I don't care

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if it's parenting or whatever. You
have something that you could write your own

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book or e book, whatever you
want to do, and put it different

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spin on things and give people thoughts
and ideas that they might not have thought

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about before. I said, Bill, I think we need to get to

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work on our own books. This
is true. And at the same time,

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Joe, you are modest to a
fault here. You're talking about a

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thirty year career so far working in
the cold case field. So you bring

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a lot of expertise to this.
And I know you joke about your writing

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proficiency or whatever, but you have
the nuts and bolts on the street,

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shoe leather, whatever cliche we want
to go with, experience that most of

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the rest of us will never have. Yeah, the practical side of things

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is always a good thing. And
I've got myself in trouble in the past

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on this, even in some of
the news guests. Just for instance,

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I did a interview with one of
the news agencies, and the Anthony Brian

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Coolberger is out there. He's studying
all the stuff that make him a better

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criminal. I'm like, he's wearing
an orange jumpsuit, right, probably not.

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Yeah, So this is the kind
of stuff that sometimes I get a

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little too snarky on some of these
things. Sometimes I try to make the

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host laugh too. It's just it's
been a fun pride, right, So

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I get a chance to talk about
things that I've accomplished and was able to

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learn. Right, That's basically what
it is. You learn about these things.

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And I got into the behavioral aspect
of why criminals do a lot of

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things too, which helped me in
my career. And then working with the

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detectives in the Coldki squad. I
mean there was only four detectives in myself

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when I first got into the Bronx, and then shortly thereafter one of them

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got promoted. It was just me
and three detectives and we had thousands of

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open cases. We learned how to
cherry pick things, we learned how to

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look for those solubility factors. We
learned how to do more and less that

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we were qualified to do everything with
nothing. It was one of those battles

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that you learned from dealing with district
attorneys. Oh about god, I can

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give to tell you stories of fits
like that, and I'm sure even when

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we get to Loyal serial Killer,
I'm sure there were fits that the police

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department had with the district attorney,
because that's just the way it is.

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Case Long Island serial Killer is certainly
the case on everybody's mind right at the

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moment. So I do want to
go ahead and turn to that. When

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did you first hear about the Long
Island serial killer case? As soon as

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the news broke Just like everybody else, it happened practically in my backyard at

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the time. I was living in
Wanta, which is the gateway to Jones

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Beach. And of course, just
like everybody else, when you have something

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like this that starts to develop over
a few days, you're talking about a

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major, major crime and in certain
aspects, but Long Island has dealt with

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a number of serial killers we daman
back to the seventies. I think I

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counted about five. I don't know
if it's if it's the salt water,

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I don't know what it is over
there, but I guess it was from

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the cold case aspect too, so
I was really drawn to this case from

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the beginning, and I learned a
lot about the different aspects about what was

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going on, and of course was
able to give my input in a lot

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of media routlets about it too,
which kept me sharp on it. So

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when the time came and the news
finally broke twelve with thirteen years later,

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I had everything to be known.
So it was a good fit. So

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this happened in your backyard, but
that was not in an area where you

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were working as an active duty police
officer. You were a suburban Long Islander

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commuting into New York City and working
full time for the NYPD. The NYPD

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was were they assisting in any way
in those early stages of the what became

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known as the Long Island serial killer
case. Yes, they had just pulled

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the plug, so to speak,
so when this was finally started to break,

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But yeah, New York City was
helping out because they were actually tracking

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the phone calls to Melissam Bartholomey's sister
from the suspect who had her phone.

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So this was an important aspect that
it was a public information. It was

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out in the public that this suspect
was calling her, so they had tracked

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him down to Penn Station area where
they lost him. They lost a signal

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and everything like that going way back
when they added an idea that this person

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was in Manhattan near Penn Station,
which is on thirty fourth, and they

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know that the phone pinged in Massapequa. You know they had that information way

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back when. Why do you think
the original investigation stalled out when it did,

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Because it is looking like they had
all of the information that was needed

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to catch this guy and have had
it for quite a while. What do

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you think caused the investigation to stall
out so early? I know we only

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have a short time on a podcast, but there are a lot of oh

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my god. When you look at
the two heads of the three headed monster

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out in Suffolk County, when you're
dealing with James Burg the police chief,

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and Thomas Boda, the district attorney. Both of these men were committed to

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felonies, were both were convicted,
and they both went to jail. When

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you want to find out why this
case ended up in a drawer or the

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back of a filing cabinet, I
don't think you have to look much further

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than those two. One of the
things that really disturbed me about the district

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attorney than Tom Spoda, was his
public fight with then police Commissioner Richard Dormer.

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Now Richard Dormer, I thought made
a mistake in the beginning when he

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said that we might be dealing with
a serial killer. That was a big

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mistake. Saying that. I was
the first time I've ever heard of police

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commission to come out and say those
words. They would always come out and

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say we have a pattern killer,
or we have something that might that might

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be a pattern right, because using
the word serial is that's oh my god,

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that's a no no, because it
just brings out every media agency in

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the entire world and turns the heat
up on you. And that's exactly what

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happened. The fight between the two
of them about how many killers were involved,

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I thought was really damaging to the
case. So the police Commissioner Dormer

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was saying one and the district attorney
was saying more than one. And it

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was unusual for the district attorney to
even publicly say anything like that because the

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police are the ones who are involved
in that. And yes, I'm going

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to be biased in certain things when
it comes to the police. But the

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police are the ones who are investigating
this. They know a lot more than

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the district attorney does. They haven't
presented any case to him because they don't

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have a case or a person to
put in front of him. So I

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would lean towards what the police were
telling me initially about the case. I

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watched these press conferences really carefully,
and I always look for that pop speaker,

258
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and I always look for certain words
and certain phrases that they use or

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don't use, and then I try
to interpret exactly what's going to happen,

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not to to my own home.
But I am correct most of the time.

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But I was a firm believer in
one killer from the beginning, and

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I'm sure we'll get into that somewhere
during the podcast. While we're there,

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let's stay there for a second.
Over the years, Joe different investigators,

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and there's been a lot of coverage
in the media, including some thoughtful coverage.

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It wasn't all just sensational crazy stuff. There were some serious discussions about

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could Long Island be dealing with two
or maybe even more killers depositing these victims

267
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Many former sex workers along this kind
of stretch of Beach, and we had

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body parts showing up in a number
of different places. Now, the way

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you're talking today in twenty twenty three, you sound like you're still thinking this

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could be one individual killer. Yeah. I had this initially in my first

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00:17:00,360 --> 00:17:03,200
interviews ten years ago, and I'm
sticking with it. And I'll tell you

272
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why. People said he cut up
bodies in the beginning, and these girls

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were all found intact, and I
say, okay, let's take a look

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at this for a second. First
of all, if you look back,

275
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the first case was in nineteen ninety
six, Peaches Hempstead Lake State Park.

276
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Her torso was found in a bucket. The rest of her was found in

277
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Gilgo Beach in two thousand and eleven, and then also her baby that the

278
00:17:26,519 --> 00:17:30,519
baby Doe initially that was found out
in Gilgo. Now, DNA come back

279
00:17:30,559 --> 00:17:33,000
to Peaches. We just don't have
a name for Peaches yet. But I

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believe that's coming real soon because the
FBI had put out a request for information

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regarding Peaches, kind of like on
the down low, but they did it

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through Twitter, which was which was
ironic, but a lot of people didn't

283
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catch that. But I think that's
coming next. But anyway, then they

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have of course, you have Fire
Island Jing Doe, which was in nineteen

285
00:17:52,480 --> 00:17:56,319
ninety six, where parts of her
legs were found in Fire Island and the

286
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rest of her was found in Gilgo. And then you have the manner of

287
00:18:00,119 --> 00:18:03,799
cases Valerie mac and Jessica Taylor whose
torsos were found in Manorville and the rest

288
00:18:03,839 --> 00:18:08,799
of their bodies were found in Gilgo. Gilgo is point or ground zero for

289
00:18:08,920 --> 00:18:12,640
all of this stuff. And through
my research and through my history, I've

290
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looked for other cases or other instances
where serial killers have used the same dumping

291
00:18:17,759 --> 00:18:21,359
ground and it's rare, but coming
from a kid from growing up on Long

292
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Island, you don't know Gilgo Beach
or that area exists unless you live there,

293
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and it's it was one of those
things that because people are saying it

294
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might be transit working transy, it
might be working on the boats, the

295
00:18:32,680 --> 00:18:36,039
fishing boats, I'm like, no, you have to know, you have

296
00:18:36,119 --> 00:18:38,599
to live there. There used to
be and nobody talks about this when actually

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I haven't heard about this about any
other podcast, so this might be the

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first time we'll bring it up.
There used to be an old inn there

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called the Oak beach In, but
that was turned into a bar restaurant,

300
00:18:49,200 --> 00:18:52,640
Oh yeah, I don't know if
you remember, and ordering ads for it

301
00:18:52,799 --> 00:18:59,960
on the alternative rock station, which
is very big in the eighties and nineties

302
00:19:00,119 --> 00:19:02,920
on Long Island, and you could
hear it in New York City where I

303
00:19:02,960 --> 00:19:07,440
was living. So the Oak beach
In I think is interesting in the aspect

304
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of is there any connection between any
of the people that we know about in

305
00:19:11,559 --> 00:19:15,960
this case, including those that they're
originally from the Shannon Gilbert case, because

306
00:19:17,000 --> 00:19:19,440
remember, without Shannon you don't have
any of these things. The issue that

307
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comes down to is the police need
to now figure out first of all,

308
00:19:23,680 --> 00:19:29,119
deal with Maureen Braintt Barnes, and
then as the fourth of the guil go

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for and then work on the other
cases. Getting back to my theory on

310
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why I still think it's one killer. Whoever was responsible for those deaths,

311
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meaning Peaches and Valerie Mack and Jessica
Taylor and Fire Island Jing dope. He

312
00:19:42,319 --> 00:19:45,279
cut them up for a specific reason. He picked those girls up off the

313
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street, he had to whatever he
want to refer to them as street walkers,

314
00:19:49,240 --> 00:19:52,559
prostitute whatever, they sex workers,
whatever is the correct term these days.

315
00:19:52,559 --> 00:19:56,200
I'm an old dog, so it's
tough for me to come up with

316
00:19:56,200 --> 00:20:00,319
the right vernacular. He picked these
women up off the street, which him

317
00:20:00,319 --> 00:20:03,640
in a bad position in respect of
somebody might have seen somebody get in through

318
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car, maybe one of the girls, another girl saw and maybe there was

319
00:20:06,599 --> 00:20:08,759
a pimp that might have seen something, which ends up being the case anyway

320
00:20:08,839 --> 00:20:11,839
with one of the other girls.
The issue that comes down to is there

321
00:20:11,920 --> 00:20:15,119
was a huge risk that he had
to take, so he made great lengths

322
00:20:15,160 --> 00:20:18,839
to make sure that the bodies could
not be identified. He try to scrape

323
00:20:18,839 --> 00:20:21,759
both the tattoos. He cut off
hands, cuts off heads to make things

324
00:20:21,799 --> 00:20:23,799
really difficult, and they were hidden
for a long period of time. Now

325
00:20:23,839 --> 00:20:29,160
let's turn to the gil Go four
much later on. He's using new technology.

326
00:20:29,240 --> 00:20:33,640
He's using websites which you work anonymously. The main website was Backpage.

327
00:20:33,680 --> 00:20:36,839
It doesn't exist anymore, and I
believe Craigslist might have been another one.

328
00:20:36,960 --> 00:20:38,599
And here's the other issue. He
was using bernaphones, now we know for

329
00:20:38,640 --> 00:20:41,920
sure. So he thought he was
pretty much anonymous, using the Internet,

330
00:20:42,039 --> 00:20:48,000
using websites, using bernofhones. There
was no need for him to dismember anybody.

331
00:20:48,799 --> 00:20:52,559
I haven't heard anyone else say this
before, and I've been reading and

332
00:20:52,640 --> 00:20:56,880
watching a tremendous amount of coverage.
I haven't heard anyone say this. This

333
00:20:57,000 --> 00:21:00,799
is just my working theory, right
So if I was in this is what

334
00:21:00,839 --> 00:21:03,440
I would be thinking. That we've
had a serialcula that's evolved not so much

335
00:21:03,640 --> 00:21:10,160
from a psychological standpoint, but from
a technology standpoint, and that has enabled

336
00:21:10,240 --> 00:21:12,160
him to get away with this for
so many years is because of his use

337
00:21:12,200 --> 00:21:15,279
of technology and not so much the
old fashioned way of pulling up on a

338
00:21:15,319 --> 00:21:18,839
street corner and getting somebody to come
into your car. Can we drill down

339
00:21:18,880 --> 00:21:23,240
a little bit on the street corner
aspect, because you're covering something that I,

340
00:21:23,279 --> 00:21:27,839
again I haven't heard anyone say before. Where would these face to face

341
00:21:29,039 --> 00:21:33,119
pickups, if you will, of
sex workers be taking place? Back then,

342
00:21:33,480 --> 00:21:37,079
Kristin and I don't live on Long
Island. Most of our listeners don't

343
00:21:37,119 --> 00:21:41,000
either, Obviously some of them do. Where would those contacts have been taking

344
00:21:41,039 --> 00:21:44,200
place? Are they happening in New
York City or are they happening on Long

345
00:21:44,240 --> 00:21:47,240
Island? What The interesting part of
it is that some of the girls came

346
00:21:47,279 --> 00:21:51,880
in through Penn Station, which would
then create another tie to our suspect because

347
00:21:52,119 --> 00:21:56,240
his office, you're there, so
Penn Station seems to be a common area

348
00:21:56,240 --> 00:21:57,920
where some of the girls came in
from, and then where he goes from.

349
00:21:57,920 --> 00:22:02,279
There was the thing that really nobody
else was really talking about is where

350
00:22:02,319 --> 00:22:07,160
did these murders happen? And that's
a key thing because I said this before.

351
00:22:07,240 --> 00:22:10,279
I do not believe that anybody was
killed in his house, and I

352
00:22:10,279 --> 00:22:12,480
don't believe that anyone any of them
were killed in any of the hotels.

353
00:22:12,799 --> 00:22:15,119
None of that happened. Was just
too much of a risk as far as

354
00:22:15,160 --> 00:22:18,799
I'm concerned, especially in massive peak
with Park. My god, you're telling

355
00:22:18,839 --> 00:22:22,079
me in a nosy neighborhood like that
that people looking out the window your wife's

356
00:22:22,079 --> 00:22:25,920
on vacation, they say you're bringing
young women paraying through your house. That

357
00:22:25,920 --> 00:22:29,440
nobody would have said something by now, no way, hose And these are

358
00:22:29,480 --> 00:22:33,880
small lots in the houses are quite
close together. Oh yeah, and everybody

359
00:22:33,920 --> 00:22:36,839
knows everybody's business. You heard it, you heard people talking about it.

360
00:22:36,720 --> 00:22:40,359
It's just one of those kinds of
kind of things on Long Island. I

361
00:22:40,440 --> 00:22:42,519
just don't see that as being a
viable option for him. I think it's

362
00:22:42,559 --> 00:22:47,039
just too much. You're dealing with
somebody who has been very careful. You

363
00:22:47,079 --> 00:22:51,920
don't do the stuff where you live. Even though rex Hueerman wasn't considered an

364
00:22:51,960 --> 00:22:56,680
odd ball and sort of an off
putting character, his neighbors still knew who

365
00:22:56,680 --> 00:23:00,559
he was, and they still recognized
him and had interacted with him any number

366
00:23:00,559 --> 00:23:03,119
of times. Yeah, there was
a couple of people that they really didn't

367
00:23:03,119 --> 00:23:06,160
have a lot of nice things to
say about him. There was people that

368
00:23:06,240 --> 00:23:07,920
say that they wouldn't let their kids
go trick to treating there. It was

369
00:23:08,000 --> 00:23:11,480
Listen, we don't know for sure
because we don't live there. We don't

370
00:23:11,519 --> 00:23:14,799
know the man, so it's difficult
to say in that respect. But I

371
00:23:14,799 --> 00:23:17,759
always say there's one in every neighborhood
right when you're growing up that people say

372
00:23:17,960 --> 00:23:21,920
stay away from. That's just one
of those things. One if our listeners

373
00:23:21,960 --> 00:23:26,240
made a very interesting and astute comment
about the fact that this guy is apparently

374
00:23:26,279 --> 00:23:33,240
a quite up and coming architecting yet
his house is a total shambles. Might

375
00:23:33,279 --> 00:23:37,720
that be because he doesn't want anybody
coming in doing contracting work fixing it up.

376
00:23:37,839 --> 00:23:41,359
I'm wondering what your take is on
why is an architect living in such

377
00:23:41,359 --> 00:23:45,319
a dump, like, why are
the shoemaker's children going barefeat And that's the

378
00:23:45,359 --> 00:23:48,640
exact quote I used on Twitter that
day when the case program like the shoemaker's

379
00:23:48,720 --> 00:23:51,880
kid go shoeless? I said,
we're staring at an architect's house where two

380
00:23:51,880 --> 00:23:55,079
by four is are holding up the
front porch from falling down. And from

381
00:23:55,160 --> 00:23:57,079
what some of the photos we saw
online, he actually did some pretty good

382
00:23:57,079 --> 00:24:00,759
work in the architecture world. Right. It was a lot of photos on

383
00:24:00,799 --> 00:24:03,720
his website before they took it down. You know, it's just an interesting

384
00:24:03,720 --> 00:24:07,400
aspect the deal is with him,
and like we've seen what other killers is,

385
00:24:07,440 --> 00:24:11,400
he really doesn't attention to himself,
right, Everybody says quiet and that

386
00:24:11,480 --> 00:24:15,079
to people. That's why these guys, they don't send flares up in the

387
00:24:15,119 --> 00:24:17,079
air and say, hey guys,
I'm a serial killer. This is what

388
00:24:17,119 --> 00:24:19,119
I do. Oh, he's so
quiet, he's always he's such a nice

389
00:24:19,160 --> 00:24:22,839
guy, everybody. That's the kind
of thing you always get from cases,

390
00:24:22,880 --> 00:24:25,880
because they don't want to draw attention
to themselves. That's what makes it.

391
00:24:25,960 --> 00:24:27,799
That's what lets them get away with
this stuff for so long, hiding in

392
00:24:27,880 --> 00:24:33,759
plain sight, as they like to
say exactly. You're listening to Mind over

393
00:24:33,839 --> 00:24:45,920
Murder. We'll be right back after
this word from our sponsors. We're back

394
00:24:45,960 --> 00:24:52,559
here at mindover Murder. Talk a
little bit about what law Enforstman maybe missed

395
00:24:52,720 --> 00:24:55,839
the first time around. Let's go
back to that for a second. Why

396
00:24:55,839 --> 00:25:00,200
do you think that Lawn firstmant missed
that tip about the Chevy Avalanche from Amber

397
00:25:00,240 --> 00:25:04,240
Costello's roommate, because it really seems
to me like that was definitely a tooting

398
00:25:04,319 --> 00:25:07,759
point here. How did that get
overlooked? It could have come from some

399
00:25:07,799 --> 00:25:12,079
sort of bias where they got information
from somebody that they might have viewed as

400
00:25:12,079 --> 00:25:15,400
a pimp or as a prostitute and
that kind of stuff, and they just

401
00:25:15,480 --> 00:25:18,920
dismissed it. Right, So we
don't condone that kind of behavior. That's

402
00:25:19,240 --> 00:25:22,480
one thing that we've had with There
was a lot of complaints about the initial

403
00:25:22,519 --> 00:25:26,519
stages in this investigation that the police
weren't taking it seriously because they were sex

404
00:25:26,559 --> 00:25:30,880
workers involved amiss and they really what's
the big deal kind of thing? Those

405
00:25:30,880 --> 00:25:34,559
were some allegations that we heard about, and if that's the case, that

406
00:25:34,680 --> 00:25:38,279
might have played a part in that
per se. The other issue is that

407
00:25:38,359 --> 00:25:41,880
I've been I've had cases where they
tell you, yeah, he was driving

408
00:25:41,880 --> 00:25:45,400
an x UV. See, thanks
for the tip. So is everyone else

409
00:25:45,559 --> 00:25:48,160
on Long Island. Yeah, that's
that's that also is part of the problem.

410
00:25:48,240 --> 00:25:52,319
I know. I take what people
say publicly after the fact with a

411
00:25:52,359 --> 00:25:55,720
grain of salt. Sometimes I told
them this ten years ago. Well,

412
00:25:55,799 --> 00:25:59,440
I'd like to see the exact investigative
report, if one was written, exactly

413
00:25:59,480 --> 00:26:03,359
what was said and what was written
down, because they keep on referring to

414
00:26:03,400 --> 00:26:06,799
it as oh I told them as
a first generational avalanche. I wouldn't know

415
00:26:06,839 --> 00:26:10,359
if it was a first generation pickup
truck or whatever. Come on, I

416
00:26:10,359 --> 00:26:14,160
can't get that specific with cars,
and so I'm a little skeptical on some

417
00:26:14,240 --> 00:26:17,920
of that stuff. It appears as
if they had the digital evidence, the

418
00:26:18,200 --> 00:26:21,680
phone evidence, and they had the
forensics, the DNA, but they just

419
00:26:21,720 --> 00:26:25,480
couldn't do anything with it until some
of the technology changed. They did have

420
00:26:25,559 --> 00:26:27,720
enough in the case to start this. So if they did have meaning the

421
00:26:27,720 --> 00:26:32,039
police, if they did have a
description of just an avalanche. In New

422
00:26:32,119 --> 00:26:33,839
York State, they have something called
the Lawman Search, which is run by

423
00:26:33,839 --> 00:26:37,960
the state police, where you can
ask them for every avalanche green avalanche,

424
00:26:38,039 --> 00:26:41,079
whatever. If we gave a color
even that are registered to Long Island,

425
00:26:41,319 --> 00:26:44,880
you would get thousands of them and
then try to narrow it down to a

426
00:26:44,920 --> 00:26:47,559
specific So if I was doing this, I know it's easy to Monday Morning

427
00:26:47,640 --> 00:26:51,400
quarterback these things. But we had
cell phone pings in Manhattan, we had

428
00:26:51,440 --> 00:26:56,359
cell phone pings in Massapequa. I
would have asked for avalanches in Massapequa and

429
00:26:56,400 --> 00:26:59,359
see where that would have let us
because we know we had phone records that

430
00:26:59,480 --> 00:27:00,960
got there and people that oh,
yeah, Joe, great you able to

431
00:27:00,960 --> 00:27:03,839
do this after you know all this
stuff. But now this is what you

432
00:27:03,920 --> 00:27:07,000
talk about when you're dealing with experience. You have some things to work with

433
00:27:07,079 --> 00:27:10,839
and just ask for. So you
might have gotten a couple of hundred even

434
00:27:10,880 --> 00:27:14,519
in Massa Peak or Massapequa Park,
right because it's it didn't really specify which

435
00:27:14,519 --> 00:27:18,440
one because there's two different towns,
Massa Peak or Massapequa Park. People will

436
00:27:18,480 --> 00:27:21,799
realize that there's a almost eight million
people that live on Long Island. It's

437
00:27:22,000 --> 00:27:25,000
a lot of There are a lot
of people that live and it's on Long

438
00:27:25,000 --> 00:27:26,880
Island, not in Long Island.
I go crazy when people say, are

439
00:27:26,880 --> 00:27:30,599
you in Long Island. No,
we live on Long Island. People have

440
00:27:30,640 --> 00:27:34,319
to remember, for those of us
that don't live there, it's a gigantic

441
00:27:34,480 --> 00:27:40,960
place too, very large, over
one hundred miles long, and eight million

442
00:27:41,000 --> 00:27:44,720
people live there. So it is
we're picking an island somewhere in the middle

443
00:27:44,759 --> 00:27:47,039
of the ocean, and we're saying, okay, we have let's say five

444
00:27:47,119 --> 00:27:52,279
hundred or five thousand people live there. This is a densely populated suburban area,

445
00:27:52,680 --> 00:27:56,200
even urban at the end, closest
to New York City. Correct,

446
00:27:56,279 --> 00:28:00,319
and think about a Manhattan it's got
I think nine million people, give take

447
00:28:00,359 --> 00:28:03,759
a few. So you're talking about
the equivalent of Manhattan population that live along

448
00:28:03,839 --> 00:28:06,440
Long Island. And here's the other
thing that we're watching the news coverage room.

449
00:28:06,440 --> 00:28:08,559
People who don't live in New York
City area or Long Island, Brooklyn

450
00:28:08,720 --> 00:28:11,799
and Queens are on Long Island,
right. Okay, they just fall under

451
00:28:11,839 --> 00:28:15,519
the jurisdiction of New York City.
But there are technically four counties that make

452
00:28:15,599 --> 00:28:19,240
up Long Island, Brooklyn, Queens, Nassau and Suffolk. There's no imaginary

453
00:28:19,319 --> 00:28:22,000
river that cuts Natsau up. That's
just a pet peeve of mine. But

454
00:28:22,240 --> 00:28:26,480
it tries me crazy when they hear
national news things talk about this like it's

455
00:28:26,680 --> 00:28:30,119
like it's like Brooklyn and Queens aren't
on Long Island. People are looking and

456
00:28:30,160 --> 00:28:33,000
I guarantee you there'll be people looking
at maps so as they're listening to this,

457
00:28:33,039 --> 00:28:36,079
going no way, he's rolled.
Brooklyn and Queens is in New York

458
00:28:36,119 --> 00:28:37,880
City, yet it's governed by New
York City. It's not in New York

459
00:28:37,920 --> 00:28:44,519
City technically in regards to land mask
and these areas are immediately adjacent. And

460
00:28:44,559 --> 00:28:48,279
as we talked about, this is
a very densely populated area. It may

461
00:28:48,400 --> 00:28:52,200
get more spread out as you move
further along to the east, right on

462
00:28:52,240 --> 00:28:56,519
the other end of Long Island,
and now you're out because we have close

463
00:28:56,559 --> 00:29:00,000
proximity to New York City. So
Nasaur is more populated than suff because of

464
00:29:00,119 --> 00:29:03,440
the commute. But a lot of
people over the last I guess ten or

465
00:29:03,519 --> 00:29:08,880
fifteen years that migrated further east to
Suffolk County because it was cheaper to live,

466
00:29:10,519 --> 00:29:11,559
and then they just stick with the
longer commute. Now there is the

467
00:29:11,559 --> 00:29:17,160
long railroad that can get you to
work without having to drive on the lie

468
00:29:17,319 --> 00:29:19,279
cut a bid, but it's just
one of those things. It's a very

469
00:29:19,319 --> 00:29:26,559
densely populated location. And when you
talk about tying the potential killer to some

470
00:29:26,680 --> 00:29:33,039
physical locations, they knew that cell
phone calls had been placed from the area

471
00:29:33,440 --> 00:29:37,960
near Penn Station, which is by
the way where people that ride the Long

472
00:29:37,000 --> 00:29:42,279
Island Railroad come into New York City. So millions of people ride the train

473
00:29:42,440 --> 00:29:47,839
each year, and hundreds of thousands
of people commute into New York City and

474
00:29:47,960 --> 00:29:52,839
come in near Penn Station. But
then you also mentioned Massapequa and Massapequa Park.

475
00:29:53,720 --> 00:30:00,480
Cell phone calls had been sent and
received from Massapequa, so they knew

476
00:30:00,480 --> 00:30:07,000
that was potentially a place where this
killer was associated. Yeah, they call

477
00:30:07,079 --> 00:30:10,119
it the box, right, So
when the Commissioner, Rodney Harrison, talked

478
00:30:10,119 --> 00:30:11,240
about it, he referred to it
as the box, and that box was

479
00:30:11,319 --> 00:30:15,240
Massapeko Park where the cell phone tower
was. Now you got to remember too,

480
00:30:15,319 --> 00:30:18,039
ten years ago, eleven years ago, when this was all happening,

481
00:30:18,440 --> 00:30:22,279
they might have been maybe one or
two cell towers. There's probably four or

482
00:30:22,319 --> 00:30:25,400
five now, right. That's why
it wasn't as specific, I don't think

483
00:30:25,400 --> 00:30:27,440
as you could get today. So
when they just say massa Peak where I

484
00:30:27,480 --> 00:30:32,000
think it just covered the mass of
peak was in that respect. But I've

485
00:30:32,079 --> 00:30:34,720
also been vocal about those phone calls
that they were making. They were trying

486
00:30:34,720 --> 00:30:37,240
to keep them on the line,
allegedly. I'd like to know if they

487
00:30:37,279 --> 00:30:41,200
tried, if they recorded those phone
calls. They've made no mention of that.

488
00:30:41,319 --> 00:30:45,400
Over the They recorded the phone calls
between the suspect and the system,

489
00:30:45,759 --> 00:30:49,160
so that would be another interesting aspectivis. One thing we do know is that

490
00:30:49,200 --> 00:30:52,400
Suffer County kept all of this stuff
close to the vest, including the hair

491
00:30:52,440 --> 00:30:56,759
fibers and all the other forensics that
they have. This was all a shock

492
00:30:56,799 --> 00:31:00,039
to all of us because they've made
zero mention of any in the last twelve

493
00:31:00,079 --> 00:31:06,359
years. I reread some articles this
morning in preparation for this discussion, and

494
00:31:06,680 --> 00:31:10,240
a fact jumped out at me that
I don't think had registered with me before,

495
00:31:10,359 --> 00:31:15,079
which is I didn't realize that when
he was calling the victim's sister,

496
00:31:15,880 --> 00:31:21,079
the sixteen year old sister, basically
torturing her on some level, abusing her,

497
00:31:21,240 --> 00:31:26,039
calling repeatedly and making these horrible phone
calls, I didn't realize law enforcement

498
00:31:26,119 --> 00:31:30,519
was listening in on those calls.
I don't know if they were listening in

499
00:31:30,880 --> 00:31:33,640
they were tracking them, right so
part of tracking is listening. My thing

500
00:31:33,720 --> 00:31:37,640
is did they record them? We
don't know. Remember this is pure speculation

501
00:31:37,720 --> 00:31:38,720
on my part, but if I
had a guess, I would say it's

502
00:31:38,759 --> 00:31:42,000
probably a seventy five to twenty five
percent chance that they recorded them. For

503
00:31:42,119 --> 00:31:47,240
what it's worth, I found an
article from twenty fifteen in the New York

504
00:31:47,279 --> 00:31:52,359
Post, not always the most accurate
newspaper ever, but in that article they

505
00:31:52,440 --> 00:31:57,359
are my favorite dedicated New Yorker I
can tell. In that article, which

506
00:31:57,359 --> 00:32:04,000
is from twenty fifteen, they they
said that law enforcement was listening in on

507
00:32:04,079 --> 00:32:07,039
those calls, So I'd be real
surprised if they weren't recorded. Yeah,

508
00:32:07,079 --> 00:32:10,599
and WHI should be another interesting thing
because now you can you have voice technology

509
00:32:10,680 --> 00:32:15,119
and everything else that goes along with
it. This is what's going to make

510
00:32:15,160 --> 00:32:19,400
those other cases more difficult because none
of this stuff exists with them. Remember

511
00:32:19,400 --> 00:32:22,200
we're talking about mid nineties kinds of
cases. Cell phones are still in the

512
00:32:22,319 --> 00:32:27,559
very infancy stage. Internet was just
starting. I think you were still doing

513
00:32:27,599 --> 00:32:31,240
dial up with AOL going back in
ninety five ninety six, so for those

514
00:32:31,279 --> 00:32:36,200
old enough to remember, the real
struggle about getting on the Internet. But

515
00:32:36,559 --> 00:32:42,400
so they are definitely at a disadvantage
for those cases. You were mentioning that

516
00:32:42,440 --> 00:32:45,079
Suffolk County was holding a lot of
things close to the vest. What is

517
00:32:45,160 --> 00:32:52,720
the advantage if any of an investigative
agency holding back clues or withholding information.

518
00:32:54,279 --> 00:32:58,920
Is there some reason Suffolk County was
doing this or was this just them not

519
00:32:58,960 --> 00:33:04,039
wanting to share invest negative details.
It's really part of very investigating. Every

520
00:33:04,079 --> 00:33:07,880
police department's playbook. You don't give
out certain details because there's only things that

521
00:33:07,920 --> 00:33:10,200
the killer would know and we don't
want to put those things out there.

522
00:33:10,240 --> 00:33:14,720
And actually the district attorney rate Tyranny, spoke about that, said that they

523
00:33:15,000 --> 00:33:17,640
pretty much knew he was watching and
reading what was going on the case.

524
00:33:17,920 --> 00:33:22,640
I guess they had already served warrants
on his Google searches and all those other

525
00:33:22,680 --> 00:33:24,480
things at the time before the arrest, so they knew exactly what he was

526
00:33:24,519 --> 00:33:29,759
doing, so that they prevented any
additional information getting out. People said,

527
00:33:29,759 --> 00:33:31,279
what's the big deal. It is
a big deal because you will have people

528
00:33:31,319 --> 00:33:36,319
come forward and try to clean responsibility
for things that they didn't do, and

529
00:33:36,440 --> 00:33:40,000
it just ties you down with a
lot of extraneous tips and everything else that

530
00:33:40,039 --> 00:33:45,480
goes along with it. It was
really not transparent all the entire investigation,

531
00:33:45,000 --> 00:33:49,039
and it goes hand in hand with
what was happening in Suffolk County at the

532
00:33:49,079 --> 00:33:52,839
time. There were federal investigations of
your two top law enforcement agents in the

533
00:33:52,960 --> 00:33:55,839
entire county. It's you can understand
why none of this stuff actually ever came

534
00:33:55,880 --> 00:33:59,960
out because they didn't want anything coming
out of it, because they didn't want

535
00:33:59,960 --> 00:34:04,319
to anymore eyes looking into these things. I can't help but think that it

536
00:34:04,400 --> 00:34:09,800
might have been helpful if they had
released, for instance, the videotape of

537
00:34:09,960 --> 00:34:15,519
Amber Costello in the lobby of the
hotel. I think it's one thirty in

538
00:34:15,559 --> 00:34:17,599
the morning or something, and it's
the last time she's seen alive. One

539
00:34:17,639 --> 00:34:22,719
thing that really jumped out to me
was when they released the information about the

540
00:34:22,760 --> 00:34:25,519
belt buckle, and they showed the
belt buckle, which could be interpreted a

541
00:34:25,519 --> 00:34:30,280
couple of different ways with the very
stylized letters, but it did look like

542
00:34:30,480 --> 00:34:35,519
initials or symbols of some sort.
I think those things might have been helpful,

543
00:34:35,639 --> 00:34:38,679
and it might have been a smarter
play to release that information much earlier.

544
00:34:38,760 --> 00:34:43,480
What's your take on that. Yeah, the idea is try to get

545
00:34:43,519 --> 00:34:45,440
if you have certain things that the
public could help you with, try to

546
00:34:45,480 --> 00:34:49,840
identify this thing. So if you
show a video of somebody you know twelve

547
00:34:49,920 --> 00:34:52,119
years later, listen, people like
myself are getting older now. We don't

548
00:34:52,119 --> 00:34:55,280
remember what we did twelve hours ago. Let alone if we saw something in

549
00:34:55,320 --> 00:35:00,440
a hotel when I was traveling through
going on eat somewhere, you got to

550
00:35:00,440 --> 00:35:02,719
remember two. Even though Long Island
is not New York City, pretty much

551
00:35:02,719 --> 00:35:06,239
people are trained to mind your own
business, so to speak, too,

552
00:35:06,519 --> 00:35:08,679
so they don't tend to get involved
in other people's things. And unless there's

553
00:35:08,719 --> 00:35:13,280
something really egregious, kind of people
just put the blind design and keep on

554
00:35:13,360 --> 00:35:16,960
walking. The video to me was
not really helpful in a lot of aspects.

555
00:35:17,320 --> 00:35:21,440
The Shannon Gilbert tape that they fought
for a decade to release the nine

556
00:35:21,519 --> 00:35:24,000
one one tape, My god,
when I find when I couldn't, when

557
00:35:24,039 --> 00:35:25,760
I was like, oh, when
they finally released it, I thought it

558
00:35:25,840 --> 00:35:30,320
was going to be some groundbreaking thing. It didn't help out at anything.

559
00:35:30,920 --> 00:35:34,280
If anything, had caused more confusion
or more questions to be asked. So

560
00:35:34,320 --> 00:35:38,480
there were a couple of real head
scratchers about why they held out certain things.

561
00:35:38,519 --> 00:35:43,440
The only thing that moving forward,
If you notice when the new administration

562
00:35:43,519 --> 00:35:45,639
took over, they really didn't do
a data dump either, right, because

563
00:35:45,719 --> 00:35:50,719
within a few weeks of this real
investigation, they actually found exactly what they

564
00:35:50,760 --> 00:35:53,199
were looking for. So they came
out with basically zero. At that point,

565
00:35:53,199 --> 00:35:58,159
they went totally dark and then boom, rab it out of a hat

566
00:35:58,239 --> 00:36:00,280
a few a year and a half
later. But why do you think,

567
00:36:00,360 --> 00:36:07,280
for example, the new task force
with FBI participation, again which I think

568
00:36:07,400 --> 00:36:12,480
actually was probably helpful, why do
you think it only took them six weeks

569
00:36:12,559 --> 00:36:16,400
or so to identify a potential suspect. Well, part of the whole thing

570
00:36:16,440 --> 00:36:20,519
about cold cases, and I discussed
this at length and in a couple of

571
00:36:20,559 --> 00:36:22,159
different venues and even in the book, is about getting a fresh set of

572
00:36:22,159 --> 00:36:27,880
ice into the case. Not only
that, when you have a motivated boss.

573
00:36:27,960 --> 00:36:30,719
Right, you had the new police
Commissioner, Rodney Harrison comes in and

574
00:36:30,800 --> 00:36:35,679
in his first day that he is
named the police commissioner, he's in Gilgo

575
00:36:35,760 --> 00:36:39,039
Beach introducing himself and saying that this
case is priority number one. You had

576
00:36:39,360 --> 00:36:44,679
a new district attorney that came in
that was voted in, and he said

577
00:36:44,800 --> 00:36:49,119
that this case was priority number one. So here you have the total opposite

578
00:36:49,159 --> 00:36:52,719
of what you were dealing with for
a decade. You now have two men

579
00:36:52,760 --> 00:36:55,360
that are on the same page who
made this case of priority, and then

580
00:36:55,440 --> 00:37:00,639
opening up not only to the FBI, but the state police, national bringing

581
00:37:00,679 --> 00:37:05,559
everybody in and creating this pass force
where you're pretty much taking these cops and

582
00:37:05,599 --> 00:37:07,800
investigators or taking their lead from their
bosses. Right their bosses are saying,

583
00:37:08,159 --> 00:37:12,320
do this, find this, get
me the information, get me the evidence,

584
00:37:12,360 --> 00:37:15,840
and let's put this thing together.
When you have a situation like that,

585
00:37:15,920 --> 00:37:19,159
and I don't care if it's in
a police department or in a boardroom

586
00:37:19,320 --> 00:37:22,000
or CEO of some major corporation,
if the people that are working for that

587
00:37:22,039 --> 00:37:25,039
individual are inspired by them, you
get good things that come out of it.

588
00:37:25,119 --> 00:37:29,320
And if you treat people right,
you're going to get even more out

589
00:37:29,360 --> 00:37:32,320
of them. And this is something
that even in police departments or any organization,

590
00:37:32,480 --> 00:37:35,679
I still can't believe they don't get
the message right. If you treat

591
00:37:35,719 --> 00:37:38,079
the people that work for you the
right way, they'll move mountains for you.

592
00:37:39,119 --> 00:37:42,639
There are some people that still don't
get that message, and I scratch

593
00:37:42,679 --> 00:37:45,840
my head, what would you be
looking for in the other locations where rex

594
00:37:45,880 --> 00:37:50,800
Hureman had connections. We know he
has a property in South Carolina, he

595
00:37:50,840 --> 00:37:53,960
has a time share in Las Vegas. Is he going to be hiding things

596
00:37:53,960 --> 00:37:58,840
their bodies, other things? Like
what do you think the odds are that

597
00:37:58,840 --> 00:38:02,599
there's going to be evidence to be
found in those other locations. I don't

598
00:38:02,760 --> 00:38:06,480
know, per se right, because
they're mentioning now they're trying to tie him

599
00:38:06,519 --> 00:38:08,639
to New Jersey with the four cases
over there, we've heard now his name

600
00:38:08,719 --> 00:38:14,239
mentioned and everything, but the Jimmy
Hoffert case for Suffolk County, they're just

601
00:38:14,320 --> 00:38:17,440
worry about your own little fife them
over there and let the authorities in those

602
00:38:17,440 --> 00:38:20,880
other places. But look, they
have his DNA now right, So if

603
00:38:20,880 --> 00:38:23,519
there's any of those cases that they
have come, have DNA that they can

604
00:38:23,559 --> 00:38:28,480
be traced back to something, whether
it's blood, seamen or the body fluids

605
00:38:28,599 --> 00:38:30,840
or fingerprints or what have you.
They have it now right. They have

606
00:38:30,880 --> 00:38:35,239
his fingerprints, they have its DNA, So you're going to let them do

607
00:38:35,400 --> 00:38:38,719
their job in that respect. For
Suffoc County, job number one is to

608
00:38:39,400 --> 00:38:44,760
deal with Maureen brained Bard's case and
tie him to the fourth and then the

609
00:38:44,800 --> 00:38:47,039
other cases if there is evidence.
I think out of all of them,

610
00:38:47,119 --> 00:38:51,880
the most likely that they could probably
come up with some sort of hopefully with

611
00:38:52,000 --> 00:38:55,119
forensics, is the Peaches case because
she was stuffed in a bin, wrapped

612
00:38:55,119 --> 00:38:59,239
in clothing, there was a belief
tape and everything else like that too,

613
00:38:59,360 --> 00:39:02,320
So they might get lucky in that
one too. And you sometimes it's better

614
00:39:02,360 --> 00:39:07,119
be lucky than good. And your
thinking is you think some of the other

615
00:39:07,519 --> 00:39:15,840
approximately seven cases in this Long Island
serial killer series could be tied back into

616
00:39:15,159 --> 00:39:19,000
this killer. Well, like I
said, I find stick with my theory

617
00:39:19,000 --> 00:39:21,800
from the beginning that there's one killer. Now you have to let the evidence

618
00:39:21,920 --> 00:39:23,920
prove yourself. So you have a
starting point, you have a suspect,

619
00:39:23,960 --> 00:39:27,679
you have as DNA, you have
all those other things. Does do any

620
00:39:27,719 --> 00:39:31,039
of those cases provide an opportunity?
Is he willing to talk about any other

621
00:39:31,119 --> 00:39:36,039
cases? We haven't heard about anything
that too. We've known from other serial

622
00:39:36,119 --> 00:39:39,559
killer cases that they have taken deals
to take certain things off the table.

623
00:39:39,599 --> 00:39:43,519
But see, this is where I
don't This is where I get all my

624
00:39:43,559 --> 00:39:47,199
email people. Not the death penalty, but the death penalty. Right now,

625
00:39:49,079 --> 00:39:52,199
New York has the death penalty on
the books. They'll just never use

626
00:39:52,239 --> 00:39:54,840
it. This might be a case
where they can use this as a bargaining

627
00:39:54,880 --> 00:39:58,400
chip, saying, you know what, you're gonna be the first person we're

628
00:39:58,400 --> 00:40:00,760
gonna put up for the death penalty
unless you want to make a deal on

629
00:40:00,800 --> 00:40:04,239
something. Tell us what you know, if anything, about these other cases.

630
00:40:04,280 --> 00:40:06,920
So that's a way to go.
But I know people are going to

631
00:40:06,960 --> 00:40:08,480
be like, oh my god,
the death penalty then so hard should come

632
00:40:08,519 --> 00:40:14,000
on At this point, it's about
using it as leverage, so to make

633
00:40:14,119 --> 00:40:17,639
people feel better. I keep seeing
people saying and these are not necessarily experts,

634
00:40:17,920 --> 00:40:22,800
these are armshare detectives. They keep
commenting that New York does not have

635
00:40:22,840 --> 00:40:27,519
the death penalty. Oh, we
have murder first degree still on the books.

636
00:40:27,880 --> 00:40:30,679
Oh, it's on the books.
They haven't removed it yet. They'll

637
00:40:30,679 --> 00:40:34,360
never use it. They've declared it
as unconstitutional, but it's still on the

638
00:40:34,360 --> 00:40:37,639
books. Just listen, New York
State. You don't you're not allowed to

639
00:40:37,719 --> 00:40:40,639
use polygraphs as part of any type
of investigation except for it to get information

640
00:40:40,719 --> 00:40:44,480
out and stuff like that. So
there are things that you can do.

641
00:40:45,679 --> 00:40:49,679
The issue that comes down to is
I don't think when Governor Pataki came in

642
00:40:49,679 --> 00:40:53,199
the nineteen nineties and signed the death
penalty back into law, and if you

643
00:40:53,199 --> 00:40:57,119
look at today's New York Peter law, murder first degree is still there up

644
00:40:57,199 --> 00:40:59,320
until that point. Like when I
was a rookie copy when I came on

645
00:40:59,360 --> 00:41:01,320
in nineteen ninety too, the top
charge in New York State was murder two

646
00:41:01,480 --> 00:41:07,760
because murder one came with the death
penalty. It's been labeled unconstitutional. That's

647
00:41:07,760 --> 00:41:09,000
the thing that that people will say
they don't have it, or they have

648
00:41:09,119 --> 00:41:13,679
it, but can they use it
as the other question. Listen, when

649
00:41:13,679 --> 00:41:16,239
a cop gets killed, this talk
about the death penalty, if they're gonna,

650
00:41:16,239 --> 00:41:20,960
if the prosecutors are going to go
for it, So it's there.

651
00:41:21,280 --> 00:41:23,840
That was one of the most prominent
uses of murder one that I remember was

652
00:41:24,000 --> 00:41:30,119
when a police officer was killed by
a suspect. So there's I think there's

653
00:41:30,159 --> 00:41:32,360
eighteen different ways that you can get
charge of murder first degree. So you

654
00:41:32,400 --> 00:41:37,199
can kill a police officer, corrections
officer in their duties, a judge,

655
00:41:37,239 --> 00:41:39,920
a district attorney, if you killed
more than one person over a period of

656
00:41:40,000 --> 00:41:45,119
time, aka serial killer, it's
something that's on. It's there. You

657
00:41:45,159 --> 00:41:47,079
could have a lawyer. Of course, tell us why they don't. They

658
00:41:47,119 --> 00:41:52,719
won't use it until then. Murder
first degree is still on the books.

659
00:41:52,119 --> 00:41:55,920
When you go back to school in
the fall, do you fully expect to

660
00:41:55,960 --> 00:42:01,880
be asked about this case by your
classes? The ironic part last semester,

661
00:42:02,960 --> 00:42:07,639
for so the spring semester, the
turn paper was who is the Long Island

662
00:42:07,679 --> 00:42:12,719
serial Killer? Really? And yeah? And actually what happened was if I

663
00:42:12,760 --> 00:42:14,760
know this is going to sound like
a shameless plug, but if you go

664
00:42:14,800 --> 00:42:19,719
to my Twitter feed about a day
or so after the arrest, I copied

665
00:42:19,760 --> 00:42:22,360
and pasted an email I got from
one of my former students. That's it.

666
00:42:22,440 --> 00:42:24,760
I don't know if you heard this
or not, but the paper,

667
00:42:24,920 --> 00:42:28,400
the research paper that you gave is
they rested a guy today for the Long

668
00:42:28,400 --> 00:42:30,280
Island serial killer and he went on
and on about this, and I,

669
00:42:30,440 --> 00:42:32,559
of course I cut his name off
and everything like that, and I just

670
00:42:32,599 --> 00:42:37,400
posted the email on there. That's
the kind of stuff that makes teaching worthwhile

671
00:42:37,400 --> 00:42:39,360
when you can actually hit this thing. So what I do is my I

672
00:42:39,360 --> 00:42:44,679
teach the investigations class, so I
always try to keep a I was using

673
00:42:44,679 --> 00:42:46,679
Low Island serial Killer for the last
semester because it's believe it or not,

674
00:42:47,119 --> 00:42:50,760
many kids that didn't know about it, because you remember, some of these

675
00:42:50,800 --> 00:42:54,320
kids were babies when this case was
finally broke, and they really hadn't heard

676
00:42:54,400 --> 00:42:59,559
much about it. And so I
now I have to find another case.

677
00:43:00,599 --> 00:43:04,199
Wait, was anybody close, like
in anybody in their discussion of who the

678
00:43:04,239 --> 00:43:07,360
Long Island serial killer was? Did
any mad I'm close to saying professional guy

679
00:43:07,360 --> 00:43:10,599
from Manhattan, Like I said,
I wasn't even close, right, So

680
00:43:12,119 --> 00:43:14,559
I don't expect them to be that
close. But I guess to give them

681
00:43:14,559 --> 00:43:16,559
the idea of doing some research,
learning about the case, trying to do

682
00:43:16,599 --> 00:43:22,639
their own profile kind of thing and
developed that kind of skill was the goal

683
00:43:22,679 --> 00:43:24,760
of the research project, right,
So it puts a different spin on the

684
00:43:24,840 --> 00:43:30,760
usual boring research topic thing that you
do. And so they're like, Oh,

685
00:43:30,800 --> 00:43:32,880
what's your mind is on the history
of what is yours? I'm trying

686
00:43:32,880 --> 00:43:36,119
to find out who the low and
serial killer is. I thought it was

687
00:43:36,119 --> 00:43:38,679
this kind of a little more of
a cat and mouse kind of thing,

688
00:43:38,679 --> 00:43:43,239
and the kids really liked it.
If I could use If I could use

689
00:43:43,280 --> 00:43:46,800
that for my class, my kids
would love research paper is a whole lot

690
00:43:46,880 --> 00:43:51,800
more right. I mean, I
love that. I'll phot it to you.

691
00:43:52,079 --> 00:43:53,239
Yes, there's a couple of things
I've done with my students. I've

692
00:43:53,239 --> 00:44:00,000
dead back and I've also used movies
like Mister Brooks. I teach a class.

693
00:44:00,840 --> 00:44:04,440
So you have you seen Mister Brooks
with Kevin Costner. Yes, yes,

694
00:44:04,639 --> 00:44:06,840
I love it's another one. I
had them dealing with the whole twist

695
00:44:06,880 --> 00:44:08,039
and turns, and I won't it's
this case, somebody's never seen it.

696
00:44:08,039 --> 00:44:10,760
I don't want to give away the
ending, but there's lots of twists and

697
00:44:10,800 --> 00:44:14,559
turns and that kind of stuff.
So I'll make them watch the movies.

698
00:44:14,679 --> 00:44:17,440
Or at the time when remember when
serial podcast came out, I had them

699
00:44:17,480 --> 00:44:22,880
listen to that and then try to
find out if ad Non was guilty or

700
00:44:22,920 --> 00:44:27,960
not guilty, I thought, And
they really liked that stuff. Oh I

701
00:44:28,000 --> 00:44:30,719
really like that stuff. Thank you
both for not giving away the ending to

702
00:44:30,880 --> 00:44:34,559
mister Brooks. I've never seen the
movie and I just thought, I watch

703
00:44:34,599 --> 00:44:37,159
it, you'll like it. It's
great. Oh my gosh, Yeah,

704
00:44:37,239 --> 00:44:40,679
Jeff, please send me all that
stuff. That sounds tremendous. I can't

705
00:44:40,679 --> 00:44:44,400
do it, of course, in
a public high school, but boy,

706
00:44:44,559 --> 00:44:46,760
it would give me some great ideas
for my own teaching. Yeah. No,

707
00:44:46,880 --> 00:44:49,840
there's lots of different things that I
try to do. Like one of

708
00:44:49,840 --> 00:44:52,159
the things when I first became a
teacher at eighteen some one years ago,

709
00:44:52,239 --> 00:44:55,039
I said, I don't want to
be like the teachers I had, or

710
00:44:55,079 --> 00:44:59,119
some of the teachers that I had. It's like the old thing when go

711
00:44:59,239 --> 00:45:01,039
forbid. You grow up in an
environment where you had an abusive parent,

712
00:45:01,159 --> 00:45:05,159
right, and some kids grow up
to be abusive, and then some kids

713
00:45:05,159 --> 00:45:07,679
grow up and say, I'm never
going to be abusive. So I looked

714
00:45:07,719 --> 00:45:09,840
at my education the same way.
I had some teachers that were real jerks,

715
00:45:10,199 --> 00:45:13,199
and I had some teachers that were
really good. I said, I'm

716
00:45:13,199 --> 00:45:15,039
not going to be the jerk I'm
going to do. I'm going to change

717
00:45:15,039 --> 00:45:20,760
that. We make change by saying
I'm not doing that, and then you

718
00:45:20,800 --> 00:45:24,639
know, taking your own little spin
on things. But it's teaching is good.

719
00:45:24,800 --> 00:45:29,960
It's something that I think a lot
of people can definitely put their expertise

720
00:45:30,000 --> 00:45:34,000
in there. I encourage anybody to
do that too well. So, Joe,

721
00:45:34,000 --> 00:45:37,480
in addition to going back to school, what is next for you?

722
00:45:37,320 --> 00:45:39,599
Yeah, so school starts in the
three weeks of Campully. I'm just as

723
00:45:39,639 --> 00:45:45,960
bummed out as the kids are.
Yeah sheez. So yeah, I got

724
00:45:45,960 --> 00:45:47,840
school. So I have a couple
of trips coming up. Like I said,

725
00:45:47,840 --> 00:45:53,719
I'm going to Indiana, I'm going
to crime Con. Yep, I'll

726
00:45:53,760 --> 00:45:57,320
be there. Yeah, we'll hook
up down that time for sure. And

727
00:45:57,519 --> 00:46:00,800
actually last year was also the first
year. In April I did the Long

728
00:46:00,840 --> 00:46:05,360
Island their first kind of prime con
kind of thing and they call off the

729
00:46:05,360 --> 00:46:10,119
Hampton's who done it? Yeah,
I was invited to do the speaker on

730
00:46:10,159 --> 00:46:13,559
that. I actually they ended up
putting me into two different things. And

731
00:46:13,639 --> 00:46:15,760
the ironic part as we were supposed
to do a series on the Long Island

732
00:46:15,760 --> 00:46:22,039
serial killer, Wow do a Paddle? It got canceled because some politics got

733
00:46:22,079 --> 00:46:23,880
in the way. It would have
been interesting now that this case broke a

734
00:46:23,880 --> 00:46:27,800
few months later, but that'll be
I think I'm coming back to that in

735
00:46:27,840 --> 00:46:30,039
April too. So the next couple
of months, I got some trips and

736
00:46:30,079 --> 00:46:36,480
I'm thinking about maybe writing another book. So let's see. People say it's

737
00:46:36,519 --> 00:46:38,679
easy to write one book, two
books is difficult. Three books has unheard

738
00:46:38,679 --> 00:46:42,760
of, unless, of course,
you change Patterson and you have you can

739
00:46:42,800 --> 00:46:46,440
bang these things out on a weekend. Yeah, yeah, thank you for

740
00:46:46,440 --> 00:46:50,800
taking a shot at James Patterson,
because honestly, he's got enough ghostwriters.

741
00:46:51,639 --> 00:46:54,920
Oh my god, how he does
it? He does this is how he

742
00:46:54,920 --> 00:47:00,360
does write the books. Other people
do the books forever. I think he

743
00:47:00,360 --> 00:47:02,719
writes an outline and hands it to
them and says, go to it.

744
00:47:04,239 --> 00:47:06,840
Yeah. I guess if you get
to a certain point, you can do

745
00:47:06,880 --> 00:47:09,000
that too. We hope that you'll
get to that point. Although I think

746
00:47:09,280 --> 00:47:17,159
you are. Your focus on practical
application of the work that you have done

747
00:47:17,360 --> 00:47:22,679
is so incredibly beneficial, and I
think you're hanging it forward in a really

748
00:47:22,960 --> 00:47:28,639
meaningful way with books like the Cold
Case Handbook. That's the kind of writing

749
00:47:28,639 --> 00:47:30,519
I ended up doing, right.
I always wanted to be a writer kind

750
00:47:30,519 --> 00:47:32,320
of thing. I always had that
thing I could write a book. I

751
00:47:32,400 --> 00:47:36,400
used to belong to the stuff and
called the longand writers Guilt. And we

752
00:47:36,440 --> 00:47:39,599
started out out of the Border's bookstore. That's how old I am. Right

753
00:47:40,159 --> 00:47:43,719
to meet. Yeah, we would
meet like once a month and we would

754
00:47:43,719 --> 00:47:45,440
get there and critique of the people's
stuff, which I highly encourage people.

755
00:47:45,480 --> 00:47:47,840
So if you're not faith of heart, though, right, don't do it

756
00:47:50,000 --> 00:47:52,360
if you can't take rejection. This
is not People say Joe, what do

757
00:47:52,400 --> 00:47:55,000
you think and then never spoke to
me again. I always tell people when

758
00:47:55,000 --> 00:47:58,239
they ask me what do you think? I go ask somebody else, all

759
00:47:58,320 --> 00:48:01,639
right, because the last doozen people
don't talk to me anymore. But it's

760
00:48:01,800 --> 00:48:05,480
there are a lot of different things
I gotta tell people. Oh, I

761
00:48:05,599 --> 00:48:07,559
like to write a book, so
I go just write it. Then I

762
00:48:07,559 --> 00:48:09,719
want to be a writer, right, But I do have a fiction book

763
00:48:09,719 --> 00:48:14,000
in me. I know I have
a fiction book in me, but it

764
00:48:14,079 --> 00:48:17,320
is extremely difficult to get something like
that published. So that's the tough thing.

765
00:48:17,360 --> 00:48:20,719
But I'm waiting for somebody to tell
me I can't do it, and

766
00:48:20,719 --> 00:48:22,800
then I'll do it because I like
when people say you can't do it.

767
00:48:22,840 --> 00:48:27,239
I'm like, okay, I can't. You like a challenge? Yeah,

768
00:48:27,280 --> 00:48:30,360
I love it. Jo, Thank
you so much for spending time with us.

769
00:48:30,400 --> 00:48:32,400
We really appreciate it and we are
looking forward to seeing you at Crime

770
00:48:32,440 --> 00:48:36,920
Con. Sounds great. Thanks for
having me, Guyson. That's going to

771
00:48:37,000 --> 00:48:39,679
do it for this episode of Mind
of a Murder. We'll see you next

772
00:48:39,719 --> 00:48:54,800
time. Mind Over Murder is a
production of Absolute Zero and Another Dog Productions.

773
00:48:55,360 --> 00:49:00,119
Our executive producers are Bill Thomas and
Kristin Dilley. Our logo art is

774
00:49:00,159 --> 00:49:06,599
by Pamela Arnois. Our theme music
is by Kevin McLoud. Mind Over Murder

775
00:49:06,719 --> 00:49:12,039
is distributed in partnership with Coral Space
Media. You can follow us on Facebook,

776
00:49:12,199 --> 00:49:15,920
Twitter, or Instagram. You can
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777
00:49:15,960 --> 00:49:20,800
Parkway Murders on Facebook, and finally, you can follow Bill Thomas on Twitter

778
00:49:20,880 --> 00:49:25,280
at Bill Thomas. Five six.
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