WEBVTT

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The following presentation is Del Marvis Studio's
production. You're listening to the fact Hunter

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Radio Network. Here is your host, George Hobbs. Welcome back, fact

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hunters and truth seekers from around the
world. It's time for another edition of

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a classic audio series, and tonight
we'd like to tip the cap to our

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friend Joe for providing this link.
I've come up upon it before, It's

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been a while since I had listened
to it. As many longtime listeners know,

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every April nineteenth, we have a
show five or six hours during the

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day where we reflect on both Oklahoma
City and Waco. And for the next

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eighty minutes or so, you're going
to listen to the testimony of one of

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the Waco survivors. His name is
David Thibodeau. Born and raised in Bangor,

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Maine. He was one of the
survivors of the tragedy that unfolded at

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Mount Carmel near Waco, Texas.
What has it been thirty years now?

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Right? And for those again brand
new to the rabbit Holes. February nineteen

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ninety three, the ATF rated David
Koresh's Branch Davidian Compound. It was a

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small religious community and it triggered out, you know, this long drawn out

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gun battle that resulted in many,
many lost lives. After a fifty one

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day standoff, the conflict ended with
an FBI assault that led to a fire

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that everybody remembers, that image engulfing
the Branch Davidian compound killed seventy six people,

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which most were Thibodeau's friends and people
who he considered family. The interview

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you're going to hear today was from
nineteen ninety nine. It was his book

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that he was promoting. It's called
a Place called Waco, a Survivor's Story.

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And again for the next eighty minutes, he doesn't mince any words.

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And again, for those who have
not been down this rabbit hole before,

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whom may be new to the truth
community, you're really going to understand how

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evil our government is, how they
spun these just crazy people, right,

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that's what they told the American people. These people were nuts, and they

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were a threat to our lives.
And the fact is they did everything by

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the book. Now, look are
they perfect. Of course they're not perfect,

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but nobody is. But to justify
it with killing seventy six men,

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women, and children, and for
nobody to be held accountable for it is

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simply absurd. So again thanks to
our friend Joe for sharing this link.

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It runs eighty minutes and enjoy,
God bless everyone, have a great rest

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of your week. And without any
further ado, here is David Thibodeaux from

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nineteen ninety nine. Well everyone,
I want to say again thank you very

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much for coming tonight. We're very
excited to have David Thibodeau here. He's

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going to be speaking and then we'll
take some of your questions for about half

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an hour. Please help me welcome
David Tibodeau. Okay, ahead, thing,

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I'm used to standing when I do
these things, but this this will

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be a different form. Thank you
so much all for coming out. It's

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a pleasure to be here tonight in
the live music capital of the world,

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Austin, Texas. And I'm very
proud to be an Austin night now.

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And uh, it's different when you
do I've done these for the last couple

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of weeks then quite a few signings, and it's just it's just different when

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you see your your your your crowd
here from from the place that you live.

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So thank you for coming out.
I guess I'll start off at the

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beginning. I'm going to try to
keep it brief. Sometimes I tend to

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get a little sidetracked because in this
issue there's so much to cover and one

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of the problems I guess I'll start
with one of the problems with with with

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the with the trials that occurred in
San Antonio six and a half year years

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ago, up to the Senator dan
forth in in quest that's going to be

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occurring on coming up in the next
couple of months. Is the trials in

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San Antonio focused on the events of
February twenty eighth and the BATF attack,

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and basically they tried the people,
eleven of them on conspiracy to commit murder

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charges, which everyone was acquitted of
that charge. Several of them were found

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guilty of a lesser charge of aiding
and a betting voluntary manslaughter. But due

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to a little snaffu well, the
jury was given a ninety four page rule

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book that they had to follow in
the trials, I see a lot of

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people shaking their head. I mean, a jury should be able to hear

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all the evidence. That's the way
I view it, and they shouldn't be

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limited by a federal judge saying this
is what you have to do when you

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make your decision. So they were
basically five of them were found guilty of

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having a foot well, nine of
them were found guilty of having a final

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arm during what the judge called the
commission of a crime for February twenty eighth,

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and that is when the BTF attacked
you had a gun in your hand.

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Basically you went to jail. Some
of them are in jail for forty

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years on a weapons violation that the
jury felt was thrown out according to the

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count three aspect of the verdict.
So I have talked to Sarah Baine,

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that hed jury four woman that was
there that day at the trials in San

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Antonio, and she said, had
we seen all the evidence that we had

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seen since the trials that the judge
suppressed from us, we would have acquitted

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everybody on all charges. So basically, right now there's seven political prisoners,

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some of which have been under very
harsh conditions in various institutions throughout the country.

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Some of them are there for forty
years on a weapons violation that the

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jury was thrown out. And I
think that's a very important point to make.

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The whole problems with the trials in
San Antonio was the fact that the

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judge focused only on February twenty eighth, And my concern is with the hearings

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of Dan Forth, he's only going
to focus on the events of April nineteen

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and what happened at the back of
the building, and of course the infrared

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videotape that we'll be discussing a little
later. So the big problem that I

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have is you can't really understand Waco. You can't understand what really happened there

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unless you handle it from A to
Z and you cover everything in between.

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Because what the FBI did when they
set up their speaker systems, it was

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so crass. The light systems.
Literally the psychological effect of here's a guy

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that they say, David Koresh is
a person's very unstable and you have a

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bunch of religious wackos is what we've
been called consistently throughout the course of the

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fifty one days. And their plan
is to play loud music, the sounds

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of rabbits being slaughtered to Benton's monk
chanting dig just Faery is taking the phone

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off the hook for forty eight hours
at a time. So their plan was

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to make us even more unstable.
That doesn't make a lot of sense to

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me. So the point I wanted
to make in opening up is I hope

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Senator Dan For with a former Senator
Dan Forth, and I hope that some

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of the civil cases and the Senate
inquest it's going to be taking place,

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we'll focus more than just on April
nineteenth, because you'll never be able to

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see the big picture unless you focus
on the whole thing from A to Z.

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So with that, I'd like to
start off by saying, I'm David

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Thibodeau, and I grew up in
Bangor, Maine, And ever since I

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was a little kid and I first
picked up drumsticks, I knew what I

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wanted to do with my life.
I wanted to play music, and so

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I did everything in my power to
make that dream happen. Once I graduated

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from high school, I got a
job, I started saving up to go

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to Los Angeles. I played in
several bands, came home to school every

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single day and played the drums and
just lived in that little world, literally

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closing my eyes and seeing thousands of
people in front of me and just getting

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off on the rush of what that
would be like every day. And that

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was my only goal in life,
setting out in this whole adventure. And

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I ended up in Hollywood finally,
and I graduated from music school, and

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over the course of the next six
months or so, I was playing in

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a band out there, and I
had a dead end. I was working

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at Man's Shiny Seater at the gift
shop, and I had one of those

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stupid red smocks on. And I
remember one day I was so frustrated with

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my wife. I looked up to
the heavens, or at least I looked

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up to the ceiling of Man's Shiny
Cedar, and I said, Lord,

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what are you saving me for?
You know, when can I finally meet

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the people and I'm supposed to meet
so I can start my life, so

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I can do what I want to
do instead of being in this rut.

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And I said, you know,
just please make this happen. I know

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that I'm here for a reason.
I know that I'm not here just aimlessly

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walking through life in Hollywood living,
you know, living with a bunch of

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guys in a one room apartment.
And two days later, I was late

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for a band rehearsal. I had
my band members with me and I made

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them literally made them they didn't want
to do it. I made them stop

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at Guitar Center on Sunset Boulevard so
I could buy some drumsticks. And when

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I did, I walked into the
electronic drum room, which I had a

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very bad habit of doing. They
always had a kid set up and I

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would always sit down and play it. And there were these two gentlemen that

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were standing there looking at the electronic
drum set and they asked me if I

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was a drummer. So I was, and I sat down I played the

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drums for him. They said that
they were be interested in purching this kit

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and they wanted to hear it.
So I sat down and played for three

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minutes or so, and when I
got up the guy there was a guy

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in a business suit, and there
was a guy in a T shirt with

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ragged jeans. It was just kind
of really laid back and the guy the

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suit if he will approach me,
and he says, wow, you know

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pretty good drummer. We're looking for
one for our band, or would you

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be interested in getting together with us? I said, yeah, sure,

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and I'm in a band now,
but I'm always interested to play with different

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people. And so they handed me
their card and I looked at the card

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and on the back of the car
there was all this religious scripture. I

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was revolving around the Kingdom to be
set up, but I didn't realize that

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at the time, nor did I
really care. I saw the religious scripture

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and I handed the card back to
him. I said, well, thank

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you very much. You know,
I'm the spiritual person, but I don't

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believe that I'm really looking to be
in a Christian band at this time.

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And that's when Steve piped up and
he said, well, you know,

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it's like this, we're not really
a Christian band. What we are as

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we've studied the Scripture. I've been
all over the world with this guy,

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David Koresh, and he introduced David, and David didn't really say too much.

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He just kind of sat back and
let Steve do most of the talking.

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He said, I've been all over
the world, and you know,

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I've we've studied this this this book
they call him the Bible. We ripped

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it apart and we just have some
insights to it. And you know,

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really all we want to do is
play music right now. And you know,

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we do have a message that is
revolving around the scripture, but you

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know, it's really not our focus
right now. We just would like to

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play music with you. I said, okay. I kind of left with

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the attitude don't call me, I'll
call you. And a couple of days

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later, you know, things weren't
going so wrong. I just started thinking

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about this, and I was really
impressed with the suits. And he was

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a very good orator, you know, Steve Schneider, and and David is

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just real quiet and you know,
kind of mysterious. He said a few

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things, and then I gave him
a call, and over the course of

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the next day or so, we
got together and went They had a property

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in Pomona, It's about forty five
minutes out of Hollywood, and we went

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there and played some music. I
thought David was a great guitarist. I

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met their artist, Cliff Sellers,
who had paint airbrushed guitars, and it

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was just they seemed to really have
it together. They were very professional,

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and that's something that I liked well. Over the course the next couple months,

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I got to know him a little
better, and specifically, Steve Schneider

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would come over with some of the
guys and give us studies because I said,

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you know, we want to show
you some of these things out of

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this book. And I remember the
first night I had my roommates and they

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were all sitting around. I said, hey, I forgot to tell you,

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guys, but I have a couple
of people coming over for we're going

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to have a Bible study. I
hope you don't mind. And they were

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like, why didn't you tell us? You know, I could have gotten

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a day with my girlfriend, or
we could have gone out to the movies

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or something, you know, and
they were literally reaching for their coats when

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the knot came at the door and
it was Steve Schneider and as Jamie Cassillo,

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Greg Summers, just several of the
younger guys were there. I even

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think Cliff was there. Let's see, Peter was there, Peter Hipsmian and

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you should have seen the look on
their faces when the door knoed and I

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opened the door and they all came
in and said, hey, you know,

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I mean you're already They had a
twelve pack of beer with him.

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You know. All of a sudden, my roommate said, well, you

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know, I think we can stay
for a few minutes and let's to do

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what they got to say. And
I just remember when Steve Schneider sat down

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and he had this one inch margin
Bible, you know, we can make

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your notes. And he opened that
book and every page that he had had

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all this grit, had all this
cross references color coded in it on every

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single page. It was just absolutely
filled with cross references. Instantly, I

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was impressed because I could see that
these I was never impressed, and I

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hope I don't offend anyone here,
but I was never impressed with the TV

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preachers and the hypocrisy of not all, but several organized religions. You know.

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I was always more into the small
movements of religion that seemed to be

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a little more pure in heart.
And then as they grow, and of

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course it becomes a money financial institution, it tends to lose focus a little,

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I think a lot. And so
I was impressed with the way that

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they ripped the Bible apart, and
they had really done their research and studied.

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And that's what impressed me was the
fact that it was more of an

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intellectual study, that it wasn't indoctrinization
or they never came off preachy that would

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have turned me off instantly. And
so they went through their study and two

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hours later, I'm looking around,
my roommates are still sitting there. I

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to me that was an act of
God. And I remember the course of

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the next couple months, we got
together severalcations and had studies. Then one

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day David Kriesh invited me out to
Waco, Texas, a place called Waco

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and he said to be we're going
out there for Passover, which is one

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of the two week periods of the
festival periods of God in the scripture.

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And he said, literally, there's
going to be hundreds of people from all

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over the world that are going to
be coming to learn these truths. He

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says, you're going to meet,
you know, the people that are carpenters,

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people that are architects, people that
have gone to seminary school, people

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that are pastors in their own churches
in England. I said, well,

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that sounds kind of interesting, and
he asked me if I wanted to go,

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and at the time I was pretty
adventure simmon. I did. So.

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We pulled up to Mount Carmel and
I took a look at all the

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single buildings that line the place up
and I just thought it was one of

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the strangest places I'd ever seen in
my life. And we got there a

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week early, so we started playing
some music and stuff, and people started

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arriving, and I started to question
these people. I said, why are

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you here? What do you hope
to gain from this? And I must

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have talked to ten or fifteen different
people at various times, and they basically

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all told me the same thing.
They said that they had learned more about

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the Scripture from this person, David
Koresh, and they had their whole lives

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studying on their own or being pastors
or going to seminary school. And it's

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just like everyone seemed to have the
same testimony. So I wanted to see

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what it was going to be,
you know, what it was really all

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about. I always knew that there
was a mystery to this book. I

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always wondered in my life, how
come so many thousands and thousands of people

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have died, put their lives on
the line and sacrificed their lives for this

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scripture throughout the course of time.
See that has a power to it.

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And over the course of that too. I remember the very first study and

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the reason that I'm relating the stories
because a lot of people ask me,

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you know, how could you follow
someone like David Koresh. People say this,

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but they have no idea who he
was. All they know is what

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they've heard, and they've made their
judgments because they've heard some very bad things.

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Well, there's always two sides of
the story. In this case,

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there's I think hundreds of sides to
the story. The first study that he

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gave me, he hit a Bible. He had a Bible, and he

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held it up. He says.
Most people see this book and they see

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two pieces of cow leather with a
bunch of pages in between, and they

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spend their life trying to unravel the
mystery or get some kind of basic truth

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out of it. He says,
No, when I see, and he

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held up to his forehead, he
goes, when I see it, I

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see it panoramically, as if it's
happening now, from Genesis to Revelation,

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right now, as it's happening.
That was pretty tough pill to swallow.

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But over the course of the next
two weeks, we had studies that would

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last anywhere from ten to twelve hours
a day, and they were they were

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very entertaining. I mean, it
wasn't something that I thought dry. I

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mean I actually started to become involved
and become part of this world of the

250
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scripture, and it was something that
I started to embrace, and I literally,

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over the course that two weeks,
came to believe, you know,

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that wasn't even one hundred percent sure
if this was the final messager, this

253
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was the messenger, but I came
to believe that David did see the scripture

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that way, panoramically, as if
it had happened, as if he had

255
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been there when he gave a study. He gave a study with literally the

256
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looks on the faces of the people
that are written in the scripture, so

257
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you could actually see the sarcasms,
you could see the nuances of the communication

258
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that was taking place in the Bible, where before I could never see that

259
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reading. And on my own it
just made me go to sleep, frankly,

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and so it was something that held
the interest. I think one thing

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that I saw David do on several
occasions, and he did this with me

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as well. After that two or
three week period when everyone started to leave,

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played music a little more, and
you know, I was trying to

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absorb all this stuff. He says, what I want to do now,

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is you know. I want you
to be my drummer. I want you

266
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to be in the band, but
you've have now have the basic foundations of

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the seven Seals, first five seals, if you will, And what I

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want to do is you would you
like to go to Maine and see your

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parents? Absolutely, I'd love to
go see my parents. You know,

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it was on him right why not? And my head was spinning. Frankly,

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I definitely needed some time to absorb
it all, and so he sent

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me up to Many said, you
know, take a couple of weeks,

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take a month, take whatever time
you need. If you find that you

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know and ask people about these seven
Seals, go to preachers, go to

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rabbis, go to anybody, and
if they have some insight into the seals,

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let me know. I might be
interested. But if I'm pretty sure

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that you're going to find that no
one even knows what they are or the

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most people are going to say that
there's a mystery and we're waiting for Christ

279
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to come back before those things can
be revealed. If they don't know,

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and you want to learn more,
come on back. You know, we

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want to have you in. And
I said, well, okay, that's

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pretty fair. Well over the course
of the next month, I went to

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Maine and I got a call one
day about a month later, and I

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was putting it off because I was
convicted at this point. I mean,

285
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I had known that there was something
there, but at the same time,

286
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I didn't really want to entirely give
up my life and just go and live

287
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on what we call the Ant Hill
because we got the Texas fire ants here

288
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and there's several at Mount Carmel.
So I ended up going back, and

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I ended up going back to Hollywood, and several events took place, if

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you will, I'm gonna kind of
wrap it up real quickly here. Within

291
00:18:29.160 --> 00:18:33.480
six months we ended up being in
Hollywood, we ended up moving to Mount

292
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Carmel. There's several events that took
that took place that are really important,

293
00:18:37.400 --> 00:18:41.400
But because I really want to get
to questions, you're gonna have to look

294
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it up in the book. But
a lot of very very interesting, very

295
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deep things happened to me during that
period of time that I was in Hollywood,

296
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and a lot of them revolved around
a certain friend of mine who was

297
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in a band as well out there, and Koresh had some insights that literally

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just just just blew me away.
He could know this about my friend,

299
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and all these things were factors.
So we ended up moving to Mount Carmel

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about a year before the Batf attack
of February twenty eighth, and throughout that

301
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year we tore down the little houses
and we started to build up the major

302
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complex there called Mount Carmel, and
the big building that everyone saw, we

303
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built a swimming pool. David Koresh
and Steve Schneider would. Steve would he

304
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was a brilliant salesman. I mean
Steve basically would negotiate all the deals.

305
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We ended up getting go karts,
building a track the children, some of

306
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the Agro boys got small dirt bikes
and we would all go out and play

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on the track. What ended up
happening is through a person that I met

308
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in Waco, and we had ties
in Waco. I mean, this wasn't

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some community that was just totally within
themselves out in the middle of nowhere.

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I mean the branch of Indians,
or what became to be known as a

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Branch of Indians, actually the branch
of he and stemmed from an earlier group

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that had lived out there, had
been there for sixty years. David Koresh

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was the third of what people out
there called inspired or if you will,

314
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a profit, and he was the
third one to get the complete vision of

315
00:20:12.759 --> 00:20:18.079
the Seven Seals. Before them,
there was Hattaf and Lois Rodin who preceded

316
00:20:18.160 --> 00:20:21.759
David. So it wasn't just some
fly by night group that David started.

317
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It was something that built off a
foundation of several years, and there were

318
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several people that had been there almost
from the inception of it, who tell

319
00:20:27.680 --> 00:20:32.839
me stories that David first came on
the scene. His name was Vernon Howell.

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00:20:33.279 --> 00:20:36.079
When he first came on the scene, he was basically he could barely

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formulate a sentence. I mean,
he had a great knowledge of the scripture,

322
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but he was no order. He
was great with working on cars,

323
00:20:41.839 --> 00:20:45.640
but he stuttered. He had a
stuttering problem. And literally after nineteen eighty

324
00:20:45.640 --> 00:20:49.559
five, when he claimed to have
his vision of the Seven Seals, he

325
00:20:49.599 --> 00:20:55.200
started to talk very clearly, very
concisely, and it was almost like an

326
00:20:55.240 --> 00:20:59.000
overnight transformation that a lot of the
older people there told me about, which

327
00:20:59.039 --> 00:21:04.119
I thought was very impressed. Impressive. Well, I ended up meeting someone

328
00:21:04.400 --> 00:21:10.119
whose father was Henry McMahon, who
was a licensed firearm dealer that ran a

329
00:21:10.119 --> 00:21:12.759
place called the Hewitt Handguns and was
right outside of Waco and Hewett, Texas.

330
00:21:15.319 --> 00:21:22.480
But and Henry basically started to get
studies from David and started to learn

331
00:21:22.480 --> 00:21:25.000
a lot of things and thought that, you know, David was someone that

332
00:21:25.079 --> 00:21:27.640
was very special, someone was very
inspired and started to take David to gun

333
00:21:27.680 --> 00:21:32.599
shows. I mean that was kind
of his forte And through these little excursions

334
00:21:32.640 --> 00:21:36.440
of going to gun shows here in
Texas, they David and Paul and Steven

335
00:21:36.519 --> 00:21:41.319
Schneider found out a couple things.
They found out that because of all the

336
00:21:41.319 --> 00:21:44.839
the legislations coming down the pike of
two two three round is going up in

337
00:21:44.920 --> 00:21:48.720
value, that AK forty seven's are
going up in value from five hundred dollars

338
00:21:48.799 --> 00:21:52.440
to two thousand dollars overnight. And
you started to they started to actually take

339
00:21:52.480 --> 00:21:56.880
on the business of going to gun
shows and doing everything legally, having the

340
00:21:56.960 --> 00:22:03.680
yellow sheets on all the firearms and
basically buying and selling legally. There were

341
00:22:03.680 --> 00:22:07.559
people inside that made vests hunters vests
that were sold at the gun shows,

342
00:22:07.599 --> 00:22:12.640
as well as several other things that
occurred. And one of the things that

343
00:22:12.720 --> 00:22:18.039
ended up happening is as we were
building the pool that summer, helicopters started

344
00:22:18.039 --> 00:22:21.920
to fly by really low, and
you know, we could tell they were

345
00:22:21.960 --> 00:22:23.920
taking pictures. We knew that,
you know, we were being watched.

346
00:22:23.960 --> 00:22:26.960
I mean, you know, a
big group of people out there in the

347
00:22:26.000 --> 00:22:30.519
middle of nowhere. It's pretty strange
according to most people, which most Americans

348
00:22:30.559 --> 00:22:37.640
tend to forget that America was founded
on a bunch of religious extremists that came

349
00:22:37.680 --> 00:22:41.039
to this nation and started to put
together the Constitution. And I think it's

350
00:22:41.079 --> 00:22:45.920
important to remember that the Baptists were
scourged in the streets when they first came.

351
00:22:45.960 --> 00:22:48.839
And I'm sure a lot of you
know about the history of the Mormons

352
00:22:49.319 --> 00:22:53.720
and what they had to suffer when
they were first starting with their particular doctrine.

353
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And so it comes from a long
foundation of I guess killing or being

354
00:23:00.240 --> 00:23:03.599
up what you can understand or what
you don't want to understand, or is

355
00:23:03.640 --> 00:23:08.720
specifically what the establishment can understand.
And from this point that Henry came into

356
00:23:08.759 --> 00:23:17.720
being, that's when all the gun
stuff started happening. A couple other interesting

357
00:23:17.759 --> 00:23:22.200
things took place. Well, Henry
McMahon one day gave us a call and

358
00:23:22.240 --> 00:23:27.039
he had been raided by the BATF
The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms,

359
00:23:27.759 --> 00:23:30.440
and they were going through all his
yellow sheets and they started to ask

360
00:23:30.519 --> 00:23:34.440
Henry and David Aguilera, the b
ATF agent headed up the whole investigation,

361
00:23:34.920 --> 00:23:38.200
he started to ask a lot of
questions about David Koresh to Henry. He

362
00:23:38.200 --> 00:23:41.359
says, well, Henry says,
you're investigating me. Why you're asking me

363
00:23:41.400 --> 00:23:45.359
all these questions about Krush? You
should investigate Koresh or go speak with him.

364
00:23:45.799 --> 00:23:48.200
So Henry excused himself in one of
the kitchen and this all came out

365
00:23:48.279 --> 00:23:56.039
to trials in San Antonio. Everything
I'm saying I can prove has happened.

366
00:23:56.240 --> 00:24:00.200
So Henry McMahon went into the other
room. He got the phone and he

367
00:24:00.240 --> 00:24:04.680
called David and he said, David, the BATF for here, and they're

368
00:24:04.880 --> 00:24:07.440
rating me. They're going through all
my yellow sheets and asking me a lot

369
00:24:07.440 --> 00:24:11.599
of questions about you. What do
you want me to do? And Chris

370
00:24:11.680 --> 00:24:15.240
said, well, once't you have
him come on out to the property.

371
00:24:15.960 --> 00:24:18.720
This is about two to three months
before February twenty eighth. Have them come

372
00:24:18.759 --> 00:24:22.359
out to the property. They can
check out any of the yellow sheets on

373
00:24:22.400 --> 00:24:25.480
any of the firearms that we purchased. They have any questions, but he

374
00:24:25.559 --> 00:24:27.480
yet put them on the phone.
I'll speak to him. Henry McMahon went

375
00:24:27.480 --> 00:24:30.240
into the other room and he said, I have David Koresh on the phone.

376
00:24:30.920 --> 00:24:33.559
He wants to speak to you.
He's and buy the out to the

377
00:24:33.599 --> 00:24:37.599
property. And David Aguilera shook his
head and waved his hands above his head

378
00:24:37.640 --> 00:24:42.119
like this. He didn't want to
speak to David. Never wanted to ever

379
00:24:42.160 --> 00:24:48.599
try to make any contact with David, other than when the four individuals ended

380
00:24:48.640 --> 00:24:51.480
up moving across the street, which
was going to bring me my next story.

381
00:24:52.279 --> 00:24:53.799
These four guys move across the street
one day out of the blue.

382
00:24:56.039 --> 00:25:00.480
This is about a month or so
before the initial attack. And when they

383
00:25:00.519 --> 00:25:06.079
did this, there was four guys
move in a two room house. They

384
00:25:06.240 --> 00:25:08.400
bring in all this heavy equipment.
You know, they don't move in furniture,

385
00:25:08.440 --> 00:25:11.559
but they move in this equipment and
they start to set up their little

386
00:25:11.559 --> 00:25:15.680
surveillance. And over the course of
the next couple of days, well,

387
00:25:15.720 --> 00:25:18.960
there was an event that took place
I think is pretty funny. Greg Summers

388
00:25:19.200 --> 00:25:22.440
at the request that David brought over
some beer and some pizza to the guys

389
00:25:22.480 --> 00:25:26.160
across the street to kind of welcome
them, welcome, welcome them to the

390
00:25:26.160 --> 00:25:29.319
neighborhood. And seeing you say,
there's only two people in the neighborhood,

391
00:25:29.400 --> 00:25:32.480
you know, why not make friends
with their neighbors. And so they knocked

392
00:25:32.480 --> 00:25:33.599
at the door and they said,
yeah, we're from across the street.

393
00:25:33.680 --> 00:25:37.279
We just wanted to bring you guys
over some beer and some pizzas and say

394
00:25:37.359 --> 00:25:40.240
hi. And this hand came out
of the door, grabbed the pizza,

395
00:25:40.720 --> 00:25:42.319
pulled the pizza in and slammed the
door and said, thank you. I

396
00:25:42.359 --> 00:25:47.079
got my girl in here. So
that's pretty strange, you know, I

397
00:25:47.079 --> 00:25:52.759
mean, obviously either he had his
girl in there there definitely wasn't something they

398
00:25:52.759 --> 00:25:56.799
did not want us to see.
So over the course of the next week

399
00:25:56.920 --> 00:26:00.440
or so, they did come in
and finally make contact. The guy named

400
00:26:00.480 --> 00:26:03.440
Robert Rodriguez or Robert Gonzalez, the
ones an alias one's his real name.

401
00:26:03.440 --> 00:26:07.160
I think Rodrigus was the name of
was the alias came over, started to

402
00:26:07.160 --> 00:26:12.119
make contact with David and basically over
the course of the next he had nine

403
00:26:12.480 --> 00:26:17.240
to thirteen contacts with David I believe
it was nine, and David instantly started

404
00:26:17.240 --> 00:26:21.119
giving him studies. Robert was a
man that was raised Catholic, and as

405
00:26:21.240 --> 00:26:23.519
David would give him studies, I
could see this look on his face.

406
00:26:23.519 --> 00:26:26.319
I mean it was like he was
starting to get his question answers. Like

407
00:26:26.400 --> 00:26:30.599
myself and all the people that were
there, literally, David could answer all

408
00:26:30.640 --> 00:26:34.079
our questions from a scriptural standpoint.
Steve Schneider and Wayne Martin and Paul Fatta,

409
00:26:34.160 --> 00:26:37.799
they tried to rip them apart for
months before they joined this community,

410
00:26:37.839 --> 00:26:42.519
and they couldn't do it. There
was an interview that this individual did with

411
00:26:42.599 --> 00:26:48.720
the Washington Times. I believe it
was right after the well April nineteenth in

412
00:26:48.759 --> 00:26:51.920
the place burned the ground, and
he said a couple of very interesting things.

413
00:26:51.960 --> 00:26:56.480
One was that the interviewer said,
was David close? Meaning were you

414
00:26:56.559 --> 00:27:00.319
close to being in the community or
being converted if you will? He said,

415
00:27:00.400 --> 00:27:03.920
yeah, it was close. I
think that's very interesting. He said

416
00:27:03.079 --> 00:27:07.240
in other statements that the agents had
to shake him up and say, you're

417
00:27:07.240 --> 00:27:08.279
here to do a job. You
know you're not here to get converted.

418
00:27:08.359 --> 00:27:14.880
Robert, come on. He also
said that when the FBI took over,

419
00:27:15.799 --> 00:27:18.720
the FBI said, what can you
tell us about David? What's going to

420
00:27:18.759 --> 00:27:22.559
happen next? And Robert said,
well, give me a Bible. I'll

421
00:27:22.599 --> 00:27:25.920
show you exactly what he's going to
do next from that scripture. And the

422
00:27:26.000 --> 00:27:30.480
FBI looked at him like he was
crazy. They wanted nothing to do with

423
00:27:30.519 --> 00:27:33.000
it. And then Robert said,
he went out through his Bible awayne and

424
00:27:33.119 --> 00:27:37.160
you know, it was very sorrowful. He'd lost four friends that day.

425
00:27:38.440 --> 00:27:42.119
And I think it's really interesting that
the BATF I mean, Robert said he

426
00:27:42.160 --> 00:27:45.000
saw no signs of illegal activity during
the time he was in there, and

427
00:27:45.000 --> 00:27:48.400
they still went forward with the raid. I mean, they have an undercover

428
00:27:48.480 --> 00:27:51.200
guy in there. Why won't they
work with their own undercover agent. Why

429
00:27:51.200 --> 00:27:55.119
won't they listen to what he's saying. We'll talk about the warrant in a

430
00:27:55.160 --> 00:27:59.319
minute. But after this period of
time, the Waycoach Tribune Herald put out

431
00:28:00.119 --> 00:28:04.039
what they call this seven part series, a sinful Messiah series that was very

432
00:28:04.079 --> 00:28:07.599
demonizing him. It's just a very
harsh piece. They didn't ask for our

433
00:28:07.640 --> 00:28:11.480
side of the story at all.
And they started to talk about if you're

434
00:28:11.480 --> 00:28:15.880
a Branch Davidian, you believe Price
lives on a threadbare in piece of land

435
00:28:15.920 --> 00:28:19.599
in the middle of Waco, Texas, and he's a beer drinking, guitar

436
00:28:19.680 --> 00:28:25.799
tote and gun toting preacher. That's
how it started. That's like the headline,

437
00:28:25.839 --> 00:28:27.839
right, and that's the first of
a seven part series, because so

438
00:28:27.880 --> 00:28:33.720
you can imagine that we pretty much
saw that something was about to take place.

439
00:28:33.359 --> 00:28:37.960
Now, the problem, I have
several problems, but the first of

440
00:28:37.039 --> 00:28:41.319
many problems that I have with the
BATF attack is number one. When you

441
00:28:41.319 --> 00:28:44.680
look at the warrant and rip it
apart. Basically, they went to the

442
00:28:44.799 --> 00:28:49.759
judge, a Judge Green, under
false pretenses. They relied on information that

443
00:28:49.839 --> 00:28:53.920
was the child abuse information and allegations
came from a guy named Mark Brow who

444
00:28:55.000 --> 00:28:59.440
studied under David for several years and
then left. They relied on information that

445
00:28:59.519 --> 00:29:02.480
was five years old. Under federal
law, when you go to a judge,

446
00:29:02.519 --> 00:29:06.599
you have to have current information at
least six months old or at the

447
00:29:06.599 --> 00:29:10.799
most six months old before you can
get a warning against someone. Davey Aghlir,

448
00:29:10.839 --> 00:29:14.640
who headed up that report, said
that Koresh was receiving upper and lower

449
00:29:14.720 --> 00:29:19.480
receivers to put together fully automatic AK
forty sevens. That's a BATF agent.

450
00:29:21.160 --> 00:29:23.599
The problem with this scenario is an
AK forty seven is a solid body firearm.

451
00:29:23.599 --> 00:29:26.440
You can't get an upper and lower
receiver for it. Therefore, how

452
00:29:26.480 --> 00:29:30.720
can you put it together make a
fully automatic weapon. That's an AK forty

453
00:29:30.759 --> 00:29:34.599
seven. Now, this is in
the warrant. This is what they went

454
00:29:34.640 --> 00:29:37.640
to the judge with to get a
knock search horn, which the judge signed.

455
00:29:37.640 --> 00:29:41.079
He gave him a knock search horn. I don't know what your interpretation

456
00:29:41.200 --> 00:29:44.440
of a knock search warrn is,
but mine, as you go up to

457
00:29:44.480 --> 00:29:45.480
the door, you knock on the
door, and you serve the warrant,

458
00:29:45.519 --> 00:29:49.640
you go in and get your evidence. Okay. They chose to serve a

459
00:29:49.759 --> 00:29:55.759
knock search horrant with what they called
Operation Trojan Horse, and the cold word

460
00:29:55.799 --> 00:30:00.559
for Operation Trojan Horse to go down
with showtime literally it's showtime now. They

461
00:30:00.680 --> 00:30:03.279
chose to serve this warrant with two
cattle trailers pulling to the front of the

462
00:30:03.279 --> 00:30:08.599
building, four or five ATF teams. One team was to go to the

463
00:30:08.599 --> 00:30:11.319
back of the building. Another team
was to go up to the side of

464
00:30:11.359 --> 00:30:15.400
the building and go into what they
thought was the gun room or the evidence

465
00:30:15.480 --> 00:30:18.359
room. And everyone seeing the pictures
of that ATF agent trying to break the

466
00:30:18.400 --> 00:30:22.160
window and get into that door jump
into the door and then they see all

467
00:30:22.160 --> 00:30:25.799
this fire coming at the ATF agents
and you see the guy go down the

468
00:30:25.880 --> 00:30:29.680
ladder. Another group of ATF agents
was to go to the front door and

469
00:30:29.759 --> 00:30:33.359
quote unquote serve the warrant that no
one ever saw in their hand and was

470
00:30:33.400 --> 00:30:37.119
sealed up. When the FBI had
asked for that warrant, they said,

471
00:30:37.119 --> 00:30:40.359
oh, it was all shot up
in the raid, so we can't produce

472
00:30:40.400 --> 00:30:42.640
that warrant. Literally, that was
sealed up until after April nineteenth. No

473
00:30:42.640 --> 00:30:47.559
one ever saw that search warrant.
Another group of ATF agents was to go

474
00:30:47.640 --> 00:30:51.680
to the front of an area where
we had a penned up area with five

475
00:30:51.720 --> 00:30:56.480
Alaskan malamutes fun and or four pups, and their job was to suppress the

476
00:30:56.559 --> 00:31:00.759
dogs. Now, there was an
eight ye and I'm gonna call it exactly

477
00:31:00.799 --> 00:31:03.440
what it is. There was an
ATF propaganda film that was put out.

478
00:31:03.440 --> 00:31:07.519
It was played on HBO. I
saw it on Court TV of all things,

479
00:31:07.559 --> 00:31:12.079
the other day, I mean on
he have absolutely disgussed. I'm sitting

480
00:31:12.279 --> 00:31:15.720
ready to go on Hardball and there
is this movie is called in the Line

481
00:31:15.759 --> 00:31:21.720
of Duty. And the reason I
bring this up is because Phil Penngrath,

482
00:31:21.759 --> 00:31:26.720
the man that wrote that was given
all this false information put this movie out,

483
00:31:26.759 --> 00:31:30.160
and it was made during the siege
before April nineteenth. This was already

484
00:31:30.160 --> 00:31:33.799
in production, was basically completed.
He has since come forward and said,

485
00:31:33.799 --> 00:31:37.720
since he's seen all this information that
the government didn't get him when he was

486
00:31:37.799 --> 00:31:44.880
making this particular film, call it
that he has said that it's wrong.

487
00:31:45.000 --> 00:31:48.440
He did a five page letter and
came to one of our memorials and apologized

488
00:31:48.480 --> 00:31:52.119
to all of the survivors profusely.
And in his five page letter, he

489
00:31:52.279 --> 00:31:56.200
likened himself to I hope I get
his name right, Lennie Ruthenstahl, who

490
00:31:56.279 --> 00:32:00.519
was the woman who did all the
Hitler documentaries. And once once Lenny went

491
00:32:00.559 --> 00:32:05.119
into Poland and saw what Hitler was
really doing and what the Nazis were all

492
00:32:05.160 --> 00:32:07.000
about, she pulled out and all
of a sudden became really really quiet.

493
00:32:07.839 --> 00:32:13.480
Well, this guy with much shame
likens himself to her as he made a

494
00:32:13.480 --> 00:32:15.559
propaganda film. And the reason I
bring this whole little story up is because

495
00:32:15.559 --> 00:32:21.160
in their film, the ATF agents
go up to the Pendump barrier where the

496
00:32:21.160 --> 00:32:23.319
dogs are with fire extinguishers, and
they start spraying the dogs. Let me

497
00:32:23.359 --> 00:32:27.000
tell you, they didn't have fire
extinguishers that day. They shot those dogs

498
00:32:27.039 --> 00:32:30.519
in cold blood time. From the
trial testimony, some of the testimony indicated

499
00:32:30.519 --> 00:32:35.200
that the very first shots may have
been fired at the dogs in the pend

500
00:32:35.279 --> 00:32:40.160
up area from the ATF agents.
This is all happening simultaneously while there's three

501
00:32:40.160 --> 00:32:44.400
helicopters in the back of the building
that are supposed to be there for support,

502
00:32:44.599 --> 00:32:46.599
coming into the back of the building
shooting at the building. According to

503
00:32:46.640 --> 00:32:52.000
several eyewitness testimony, I personally saw
the evidence of the bullet holes that came

504
00:32:52.039 --> 00:32:54.799
from had to come from the sky. They were in the ceiling with literally

505
00:32:54.799 --> 00:33:00.880
sheet rock hanging down. I saw
they shut up our water tanks. I

506
00:33:00.880 --> 00:33:05.720
literally got on my knees. I
looked through the entry and the exsit The

507
00:33:05.720 --> 00:33:09.359
bullet came from right where the side
right where the tank is a conclave and

508
00:33:09.400 --> 00:33:12.759
you could see the bullet hole where
it came in to where it came out,

509
00:33:12.799 --> 00:33:15.880
and at an angle you could see
it was fired between the two towers

510
00:33:15.920 --> 00:33:19.240
that we had out there house fired
from the air. Absolutely, that's the

511
00:33:19.240 --> 00:33:27.640
one that killed Winston Blake. So
my point, they chose, they chose

512
00:33:27.680 --> 00:33:30.599
to serve this warrant, like like
a dynamic entry style or a no knock

513
00:33:30.599 --> 00:33:34.480
search warrant. I mean they're already
breaking down windows while they're coming up to

514
00:33:34.519 --> 00:33:37.599
serve the warrant. Now, the
ATF IS claimed profusely that it was an

515
00:33:37.599 --> 00:33:45.640
ambush, that they were outgunned.
Well, if we were a group of

516
00:33:45.799 --> 00:33:50.119
if you will, quote unquote cultists
that wanted to kill the Babylonians or kill

517
00:33:50.160 --> 00:33:53.839
federal authorities, and we had fully
automatic weapons, and we had fifty caliber

518
00:33:53.960 --> 00:34:00.599
machine guns, and we were had
had forty five minutes where we knew that

519
00:34:00.640 --> 00:34:04.839
they were coming, and we were
allaying wait for him. I'm here to

520
00:34:04.839 --> 00:34:07.239
tell you, unless we're terrible,
terrible shots and all blind, not one

521
00:34:07.239 --> 00:34:10.800
of those agents would have walked out
that cattle trailer. It was simply never

522
00:34:10.880 --> 00:34:15.039
part of the plan. There was
no plan. The agents had died,

523
00:34:15.039 --> 00:34:19.400
The four Agians had died, died
twenty minutes into the gun battle. We

524
00:34:19.440 --> 00:34:24.400
had videotape of these agents standing behind
cars, standing up shooting into the second

525
00:34:24.400 --> 00:34:29.199
story of the building where all the
kids are like it's a set of a

526
00:34:29.239 --> 00:34:32.360
Rambo movie. And yet they've been
ambushed, they were out gunned. Their

527
00:34:32.480 --> 00:34:37.360
story from day one never made any
sense. Two pieces of evidence I'm going

528
00:34:37.360 --> 00:34:39.800
to bring up really quickly. One
is the front door. And at that

529
00:34:39.840 --> 00:34:45.119
front door, it was very mysterious
because the story from my friends on the

530
00:34:45.119 --> 00:34:50.199
inside was that David Crush went to
the door. I came down thirty seconds

531
00:34:50.239 --> 00:34:52.760
before the shooting began. He said, now they're on their way. They're

532
00:34:52.760 --> 00:34:55.719
coming now, don't anybody do anything
stupid. We want to talk to them,

533
00:34:55.719 --> 00:34:59.360
we want to work it out.
That's we're all about here. He

534
00:34:59.480 --> 00:35:04.280
was the front door and just literally
all hell broke loose. I instantly was

535
00:35:04.320 --> 00:35:07.239
down on my face. I spoke
to several people that were at the front

536
00:35:07.239 --> 00:35:08.760
door. They all told me the
same story at various times that Kresh went

537
00:35:08.800 --> 00:35:10.760
to the door. He held the
door in his hand, he had his

538
00:35:10.840 --> 00:35:14.159
arm out. He said, hold
on, there's women she let's talk about

539
00:35:14.159 --> 00:35:16.760
this. The door flies back in
his hand from the velocity of a bullet

540
00:35:16.800 --> 00:35:21.280
hitting it. He slams the door
and falls back. Perry Jones's seventy year

541
00:35:21.280 --> 00:35:25.000
old and our man goes down and
pain from a stomach. And from that

542
00:35:25.039 --> 00:35:29.400
point some of the people inside started
to fire back and defend their positions.

543
00:35:30.599 --> 00:35:34.000
So this door was very important because
we have pictures of it. And the

544
00:35:34.000 --> 00:35:39.320
two attorneys, I should say David
Krush's attorney and Steve Steyder's attorney actually came

545
00:35:39.360 --> 00:35:44.199
in via the tanks one day.
I actually had two or three separate occasions

546
00:35:44.199 --> 00:35:46.679
and saw the evidence of the helicopter's
firing. They saw the front door,

547
00:35:46.719 --> 00:35:50.800
and they saw that all the bullet
holes are coming from the outside into the

548
00:35:50.800 --> 00:35:53.440
building. Now, there were two
steel doors at the front of the building.

549
00:35:53.760 --> 00:35:57.280
One of them was entered in or
metal doors. I don't know if

550
00:35:57.280 --> 00:36:00.079
they were steeled, there were metal. One was entered into the evide and

551
00:36:00.119 --> 00:36:02.360
its lists the trials at San Antonio, and the other wasn't. It was

552
00:36:02.480 --> 00:36:08.880
conspicuously missing. And the defense attorney
says, what about this metal door?

553
00:36:08.920 --> 00:36:12.800
Where is this metal door that had
all the bullet holes in it? And

554
00:36:12.840 --> 00:36:15.159
all the prosecuting attorneys could say,
and their defense was all that door must

555
00:36:15.199 --> 00:36:22.599
have disintegrated in the fire. Its
sister door is entered into evidence fully intact.

556
00:36:22.079 --> 00:36:25.159
It's got a couple you know,
bumps and knocks and bends from the

557
00:36:25.199 --> 00:36:30.320
tanks running it over. But the
other door mysteriously disintegrates in the fire,

558
00:36:30.000 --> 00:36:35.679
doesn't make sense. The second little
piece of information that I want y'all to

559
00:36:35.719 --> 00:36:38.840
know about is the fact that the
ATF were recording us. They had cameras

560
00:36:39.360 --> 00:36:44.480
at their surveillance house running all the
time. The FBI, when they came

561
00:36:44.519 --> 00:36:46.559
in and took over the scene,
the first thing they said was, we

562
00:36:46.599 --> 00:36:51.280
won all the videotape of the early
stages of the raid that you have.

563
00:36:52.360 --> 00:36:54.559
The ATF said, we don't have
any videotape at the early stages of the

564
00:36:54.639 --> 00:37:00.679
raid. I'm afraid all of our
cameras malfunctioned. Becomes very convenient. I

565
00:37:00.719 --> 00:37:04.159
mean, you know, you can
say, you can say that I'm just

566
00:37:04.239 --> 00:37:06.960
making all this sub It's look,
it's all a matter of record. It's

567
00:37:06.960 --> 00:37:09.679
all at the trials in San Antonio. You know. I have a website.

568
00:37:09.679 --> 00:37:13.719
We're making an informational site the name
of the book, a place called

569
00:37:13.760 --> 00:37:15.679
Waco dot com. IM I have
the reports and the cs guess I want

570
00:37:15.679 --> 00:37:20.360
to make the evidence available. I
think that we've been lied to enough.

571
00:37:20.519 --> 00:37:22.079
Yeah, for the last six and
a half years, we've been lied to

572
00:37:22.239 --> 00:37:25.239
consistently, and it's time to lay
it on the table. I mean,

573
00:37:25.679 --> 00:37:30.480
if you will, David Koresh,
myself we've hat all out of our dirty

574
00:37:30.519 --> 00:37:34.840
laundry exposed. Why can't the government
do the same thing and say, well,

575
00:37:34.880 --> 00:37:37.119
let's you know, I think the
American public can take it. I

576
00:37:37.119 --> 00:37:39.599
think we can take the truth,
and I don't think it should be suppressed

577
00:37:39.599 --> 00:37:43.760
from us. I think that's why
we have a constitutional nation. I mean

578
00:37:44.199 --> 00:37:46.960
I was raised very patriotically. I
remember reading in the history books at Valley

579
00:37:47.000 --> 00:37:52.000
Forge, you know how our forefathers, the people that died so we can

580
00:37:52.079 --> 00:37:53.480
have this kind of freedoms that we
have in this country. I have a

581
00:37:53.519 --> 00:37:58.480
constitutional foundation. And all the people
that went off to Vietnam and they didn't

582
00:37:58.519 --> 00:38:05.280
even know why and died for us, and yet our government can pull this

583
00:38:05.400 --> 00:38:07.159
on us. It's just a terrible
thing. You know, It's a terrible

584
00:38:07.199 --> 00:38:09.599
thing. And all I've ever said
since they want is let's lay it all

585
00:38:09.599 --> 00:38:14.480
out on the table. Well,
as you can see, this is going

586
00:38:14.559 --> 00:38:17.719
to create an atmosphere of mistrust,
which of course it did. And over

587
00:38:17.760 --> 00:38:22.760
the course of the next fifty one
days, the FBI takes over, and

588
00:38:24.199 --> 00:38:28.039
you know, we felt that we'd
have a better time with the FBI than

589
00:38:28.280 --> 00:38:30.440
we did the ATF and a lot
of things happened. They set up the

590
00:38:30.440 --> 00:38:37.760
speaker systems. They started used as
psychops and they actually consulted Russian specialists so

591
00:38:37.880 --> 00:38:39.679
they could make sure to get the
best psychops. And I guess they figured

592
00:38:39.679 --> 00:38:44.920
we'd be like a was it Noriegah
when they went into it. To Panamian,

593
00:38:45.000 --> 00:38:46.039
he was he was holding out and
they started to play rock and roll

594
00:38:46.119 --> 00:38:50.920
music. Well, the day they
set up the speaker system, the very

595
00:38:50.920 --> 00:38:54.519
first thing they played was an old
Alice Cooper album. Hey, that just

596
00:38:54.559 --> 00:38:58.400
delighted me, you know, and
Jamie and some of the younger guys were

597
00:38:58.440 --> 00:39:00.000
like excellent, started calling in for
request. You know, hey, you

598
00:39:00.039 --> 00:39:02.159
know the you deaf Leopard Alum came
out. We're in a siege, You

599
00:39:02.159 --> 00:39:07.239
think you can play that for us? They weren't too happy about that,

600
00:39:07.320 --> 00:39:09.280
and that's when they started to change
their tone and they had the rabbits being

601
00:39:09.320 --> 00:39:14.519
slaughtered and the phone off the hook
for twenty four hours, forty eight hours,

602
00:39:14.519 --> 00:39:19.400
whatever it was. And you know, from that point on, things

603
00:39:19.480 --> 00:39:22.880
just got worse and worse and worse. And through the course of the FBI

604
00:39:22.000 --> 00:39:28.960
controlling all the media attention and basically
telling you what to think, we became

605
00:39:29.239 --> 00:39:32.159
the craziest bunch of religious wackos you'd
ever seen on the face of the earth

606
00:39:32.199 --> 00:39:37.599
that probably deserve what they got.
I mean, I think thousands and thousands

607
00:39:37.639 --> 00:39:39.679
of people are coming around now and
they realize they have been lied to.

608
00:39:39.760 --> 00:39:45.039
But I think that the general American
public still holds that perception. I think

609
00:39:45.039 --> 00:39:46.920
that's too bad. Some of the
people at Mount Carmel. I just want

610
00:39:46.920 --> 00:39:50.840
to go on record as saying we're
the most brilliant people I've ever known in

611
00:39:50.880 --> 00:39:53.079
my life. I mean, I'd
love to be around people that are better

612
00:39:53.079 --> 00:39:55.360
than me. I like to play
with musicians that are better than me,

613
00:39:55.400 --> 00:39:59.400
because that's how you grow, you
know. I like to be around brilliant

614
00:39:59.400 --> 00:40:01.840
people. And they were the most
brilliant I've ever known. Wayne Martin,

615
00:40:01.880 --> 00:40:09.119
the Harvard educated attorney Steve Schneider who
taught classes on comparative religions. Livingston Fagan,

616
00:40:09.480 --> 00:40:14.320
one of the gentlemen that's in jail
right now who's been in solitary confinement

617
00:40:14.360 --> 00:40:19.719
for years. Livingston Fagan, he
was a pastor of his own church in

618
00:40:19.760 --> 00:40:22.840
England. He came over to study
and I think it's important for people to

619
00:40:22.920 --> 00:40:25.840
know that third of the people that
lived and died at Mount Carmel were black

620
00:40:28.880 --> 00:40:31.440
or is the ACLU when we needed
them, you know, I mean Rodney

621
00:40:31.519 --> 00:40:35.320
King. We had riots in the
streets, but no one knew this.

622
00:40:35.480 --> 00:40:37.800
No one knew that it was such
a diverse group of people and cultures that

623
00:40:37.880 --> 00:40:43.559
existed in Mount Carmel. It's the
time people knew third of the people were

624
00:40:43.559 --> 00:40:46.480
black. I mean, that's you
know, they can't make us out to

625
00:40:46.519 --> 00:40:50.280
be the racist that they would have
liked to have made us out to ben

626
00:40:50.320 --> 00:40:53.400
And some of the reports came out
that there was racial issues and tensions going

627
00:40:53.440 --> 00:40:58.800
on, which, as it was
so was not true. Now I'll give

628
00:40:58.840 --> 00:41:01.360
you an example, and this is
one of the things that occurred. And

629
00:41:01.400 --> 00:41:06.199
this is why David was so misunderstood, and people like Mark Brow really fought

630
00:41:06.199 --> 00:41:07.960
against him. There's lots of reasons. But he had a study one day

631
00:41:08.000 --> 00:41:14.559
and he says, I hate black
people, and I you know, I

632
00:41:14.639 --> 00:41:19.360
was raised pretty liberally. I was
pretty shocked, and everyone was quiet.

633
00:41:19.559 --> 00:41:25.119
He goes, I hate yellow people
and I hate white people because we here

634
00:41:25.199 --> 00:41:30.239
are people of light. We are
people that want to understand the truth,

635
00:41:30.280 --> 00:41:32.360
and that's what I relate to.
I want people of light around me.

636
00:41:32.880 --> 00:41:38.800
No colors, you know, no
nothing to limit you. And he would

637
00:41:38.800 --> 00:41:42.920
always do stuff like that to provoke
you and make you think, and then

638
00:41:42.960 --> 00:41:45.880
there was always a wisdom behind it, and that's one of the things that

639
00:41:45.960 --> 00:41:50.599
impressed upon me. Well, I'm
gonna wrap it up to April nineteen so

640
00:41:50.639 --> 00:41:53.239
we can start taking questions. Several
things did occur, and I just want

641
00:41:53.280 --> 00:41:58.079
people that I was reading a lot
of material today. One of the things

642
00:41:58.079 --> 00:42:01.360
that I read I was by a
gentleman who's who has a very interesting website,

643
00:42:01.480 --> 00:42:06.159
and he did some articles. And
you have to understand that when you're

644
00:42:06.199 --> 00:42:12.760
in a building and they're starting to
play interviews from people that hate you and

645
00:42:12.840 --> 00:42:14.920
want nothing to do with you,
and think you're strange, and think you're

646
00:42:14.920 --> 00:42:20.239
whacking, and think that basically you're
unworthy of life, you start to realize

647
00:42:20.320 --> 00:42:24.360
that there's no allies out there there. It's us against the world, not

648
00:42:24.480 --> 00:42:27.760
us against the f BAT. It's
just agains. The world hates us now,

649
00:42:28.280 --> 00:42:31.119
well, they haven't even gotten to
talk to us, and yet they

650
00:42:31.159 --> 00:42:35.719
just soon have us wiped out.
I mean, we were hearing this on

651
00:42:35.880 --> 00:42:39.519
speaker systems, and you start to
say to yourself, you know, people

652
00:42:39.519 --> 00:42:45.760
want to say that krush was guilty
of self fulfilling his prophecy. I think

653
00:42:45.800 --> 00:42:49.800
that during the course of that fifty
one days, with the number of lies

654
00:42:49.800 --> 00:42:53.760
that came out, that the FBI, if there was a guidebook they could

655
00:42:53.800 --> 00:42:58.800
follow what not to do in the
situation, that's the guidebook they chose to

656
00:42:58.840 --> 00:43:01.920
listen to. They didn't listen to
the psychologists that said, don't allow Koresh's

657
00:43:01.960 --> 00:43:07.079
message to come to pass, pull
back, don't increase the attention, but

658
00:43:07.119 --> 00:43:10.199
alleviate the tension. You know.
They didn't listen to the human side of

659
00:43:10.239 --> 00:43:15.840
it. There's a picture in wakel
the Rules of Engagement and where there's this

660
00:43:15.079 --> 00:43:20.880
infrared video. But even before that, they have scenes where they're talking to

661
00:43:20.880 --> 00:43:23.360
the negotiators and we sent them out
a tape. I mean, everyone during

662
00:43:23.400 --> 00:43:28.199
the siege told their story on a
videotape and we send it out so people

663
00:43:28.239 --> 00:43:30.280
would relate and say, you know, these are people here that are religious

664
00:43:30.280 --> 00:43:34.159
people. They're studying this book and
they have a right to do that.

665
00:43:34.320 --> 00:43:40.079
You know, they may be guilty
of crimes, but they're just so demonized

666
00:43:40.119 --> 00:43:44.440
that when we sent them this tape
of all the people and I did a

667
00:43:44.440 --> 00:43:47.760
little interview the FBI chose to suppress
that from the public, and it came

668
00:43:47.800 --> 00:43:52.760
out in the congressional hearings. The
congressional hearings, they asked about this tape,

669
00:43:52.840 --> 00:43:57.280
and the FBI literally said, we
felt that if we were to release

670
00:43:57.320 --> 00:44:00.519
this tape to the public, it
would create much support and sympathy for the

671
00:44:00.559 --> 00:44:06.880
branch. Davidians, Oh, what
you mean, It might humanize us,

672
00:44:07.119 --> 00:44:10.280
you know, it might take away
from your demonization, you know. I

673
00:44:10.280 --> 00:44:13.920
mean I give talks and people say, mister Tibbett, you've done a great

674
00:44:13.960 --> 00:44:15.480
job, and it hiding your warns
and your cloven hoofs. You know,

675
00:44:15.519 --> 00:44:17.599
I mean, from the perception I
got from the press. It's what I

676
00:44:17.679 --> 00:44:22.519
expected when you came here. I
just said, before I move on,

677
00:44:22.599 --> 00:44:25.679
I want to there's a quote that
I thought was very profound, and it's

678
00:44:25.719 --> 00:44:31.039
exactly what has happened. It follows
precisely what took place. And Senator Henry

679
00:44:31.039 --> 00:44:35.719
Clay said this in the eighteen hundreds. He said, the devices of power

680
00:44:35.760 --> 00:44:39.360
and its minions are the same in
all countries and in all ages. It

681
00:44:39.519 --> 00:44:46.599
marks its victim and denounces it,
exciting the public hatred so it can conceal

682
00:44:46.639 --> 00:44:52.280
its own abuses and encroachments. No, I read that. I committed it

683
00:44:52.320 --> 00:44:54.679
to memory because it absolutely fit with
what happened here. And I'm just going

684
00:44:54.719 --> 00:44:58.840
to give you one more parable,
if you will, before we talk about

685
00:44:58.840 --> 00:45:05.880
April nineteenth. I'm a big fan
of George Orwell's Animal Farm, very happy

686
00:45:05.880 --> 00:45:08.320
to see that it is now a
TNT movie, and I'm looking very forward

687
00:45:08.320 --> 00:45:12.639
to seeing that. But if those
of you that are familiar with this story

688
00:45:12.679 --> 00:45:21.400
will know that the pigs, that's
pretty interesting equalization. That the pigs were

689
00:45:21.440 --> 00:45:23.800
the power structures of the farm,
and the horses were the workers, and

690
00:45:23.840 --> 00:45:29.360
everyone had their role. And every
time one of the farm animals questioned the

691
00:45:29.400 --> 00:45:32.800
authority of the pigs, the sheep, who weren't too bright, the sheep

692
00:45:32.800 --> 00:45:39.119
will would break in to their mantra
four legs good, two legs bad,

693
00:45:39.559 --> 00:45:44.280
four legs good, two legs bad, and the whole farm would break into

694
00:45:44.280 --> 00:45:46.920
this mancher and they would forget the
question. They would forget to question the

695
00:45:46.920 --> 00:45:52.440
pigs and question authority because the whole
world saying four legs good, two legs

696
00:45:52.440 --> 00:45:55.480
bad. And the FBI, over
the course of fifty one days, every

697
00:45:55.480 --> 00:46:01.559
single day consistently, federal agents good
Brandsavidians, Federal Agent's good, Branston Vidian's

698
00:46:01.599 --> 00:46:07.920
bad, and the entire nation joined
in, you know. And it's a

699
00:46:07.960 --> 00:46:10.800
shame because I feel that we have
the greatest country on the face of the

700
00:46:10.800 --> 00:46:16.440
earth. I feel that Americans are
incredibly industrial. I mean, we've done

701
00:46:16.519 --> 00:46:22.840
so much to advance technology and to
advance this world that we're not smart enough

702
00:46:22.840 --> 00:46:24.039
to say. I mean, there
should have been someone that should stop.

703
00:46:24.480 --> 00:46:29.599
That was Janet Reno's job. She
said stop. You know, these people

704
00:46:29.679 --> 00:46:34.320
may be strange, you know,
but there's two factions here, and there's

705
00:46:34.440 --> 00:46:39.119
kids involved, which brings me back
to my original point in WAKEL the rules

706
00:46:39.119 --> 00:46:45.039
of engagement. When they go in
and they show the negotiators, you get

707
00:46:45.039 --> 00:46:47.039
a picture of what they called the
compound. When I called my home,

708
00:46:47.519 --> 00:46:52.079
they got a picture of Mount Carma. They get a picture of David Koresh

709
00:46:52.079 --> 00:46:54.159
And the whole mental attitude was that's
the criminal, this is the enemy.

710
00:46:54.199 --> 00:46:59.599
We need to get him. They
should have had pictures of Serendity Jones and

711
00:46:59.679 --> 00:47:05.119
Joe's in Isaiah and Startle and Cyrus
and the kids that were in that building,

712
00:47:05.719 --> 00:47:08.800
that negotiator's house, and the tactical
Commander's houses should have been lined up

713
00:47:08.840 --> 00:47:12.800
with the pictures of these kids,
and the attitude should have been, this

714
00:47:12.880 --> 00:47:15.440
is an innocent child. We need
to do whatever it takes to get them

715
00:47:15.440 --> 00:47:19.159
out of there. And if it
means speaking Krush's language and not you know,

716
00:47:19.360 --> 00:47:22.840
castizing him in the media and getting
two theologians in that are willing to

717
00:47:22.840 --> 00:47:24.800
work with us, like James Tabor
and Phil Arnold, who poresh wanted to

718
00:47:24.800 --> 00:47:30.079
get his manuscript out too, then
that's what we got to do. I

719
00:47:30.119 --> 00:47:36.119
think it's unfortunate that it's such a
brilliant nation that the ball was dropped that

720
00:47:36.159 --> 00:47:39.000
we lost sight of that and people
are dead now because of it. You

721
00:47:39.039 --> 00:47:42.280
know what, I'm not going to
talk about April nineteenth because I want to

722
00:47:42.280 --> 00:47:44.280
open up the questions. I know
we're running out of time, and I

723
00:47:44.320 --> 00:47:46.000
know that someone's going to ask me
about it, so we'll get in some

724
00:47:46.039 --> 00:47:52.920
really juicy stuff. There is that. Okay, if you could stand up

725
00:47:53.079 --> 00:47:57.320
and wait for the mic. Yeah, Incidentally, this is being recorded for

726
00:47:57.360 --> 00:47:59.639
c SPAN. It's going to go
at national So if you have a good

727
00:47:59.719 --> 00:48:02.880
question and stand up and face the
camera and make sure everyone can hear you,

728
00:48:04.559 --> 00:48:09.000
yes, sir, Yeah, step
putter heart. My question is the

729
00:48:09.079 --> 00:48:15.239
point you just made about the h
the protection of the children should not have

730
00:48:15.239 --> 00:48:17.639
been a two way street. I
mean, shouldn't the right of the children

731
00:48:17.679 --> 00:48:22.519
been or the obligation of protecting the
children been considered from the Davidian standpoint as

732
00:48:22.559 --> 00:48:27.559
well, in terms of well,
maybe we should drop this, Maybe we

733
00:48:27.559 --> 00:48:30.719
should put the children's safety ahead of
our principles and go ahead and surrender for

734
00:48:30.719 --> 00:48:35.119
the sake of the children. That's
a very interesting question. It's a very

735
00:48:35.159 --> 00:48:37.119
deep question. I know it's one
that most Americans had on their minds during

736
00:48:37.159 --> 00:48:40.880
the course of the fifty one Days. There's a couple of things that I

737
00:48:40.880 --> 00:48:44.639
think you need to understand. Number
one is, when a tank drives through

738
00:48:44.679 --> 00:48:46.639
your living room, you tend not
to go out to those people that are

739
00:48:46.639 --> 00:48:51.199
assaulting you. When they start setting
up speaker systems, you know, you

740
00:48:51.280 --> 00:48:53.880
tend to incorporate as a group and
say this is my family. But I

741
00:48:53.880 --> 00:48:58.000
think the more important issue is that
eighteen people, including men and women and

742
00:48:58.079 --> 00:49:01.199
children, did exit during the fifty
one Days. When negotiations were going good,

743
00:49:01.239 --> 00:49:05.760
and Kresh had one negotiator he liked
a lot, and he kept asking

744
00:49:05.840 --> 00:49:08.280
for him. They pulled them off. He's basically a Christian guy. He

745
00:49:08.360 --> 00:49:10.639
wanted to help, he really did, and Kresh had a great deal of

746
00:49:10.639 --> 00:49:14.599
respect for him. They pulled him
off. During the course of fifty one

747
00:49:14.639 --> 00:49:17.159
days they went through I think it
was nineteen different FBON negotiators. You can't

748
00:49:17.199 --> 00:49:21.199
establish a report, you can't build
a relationship with some of that's going on.

749
00:49:21.800 --> 00:49:23.960
So when those eighteen children melt,
men, women and children, several

750
00:49:23.960 --> 00:49:28.199
of them children exited the building.
One of the things that they did is

751
00:49:28.719 --> 00:49:31.000
they left with very Some of the
parents stayed in, some of them didn't.

752
00:49:31.360 --> 00:49:36.000
The kids that exited left with very
specific instructions. We have very specific

753
00:49:36.079 --> 00:49:38.639
dietary rules. We didn't want our
kids out eating candy bars and running around

754
00:49:38.679 --> 00:49:42.159
like kids of the world, if
you will. We believe that, you

755
00:49:42.199 --> 00:49:44.639
know, according to our scriptures,
there a certain way these kids should be

756
00:49:44.719 --> 00:49:46.400
raised. And that's how they were
raised, you know. And they were

757
00:49:46.440 --> 00:49:51.559
all incredible children, very bright,
They helped each other, you know,

758
00:49:51.800 --> 00:49:53.320
they could sit still, you know
what I mean. They didn't run around

759
00:49:53.360 --> 00:49:57.480
and just wreck havoc. So the
point I want to make here is that

760
00:49:58.119 --> 00:50:01.079
the FBI sent us in a videotape
and in the videotape, they had the

761
00:50:01.159 --> 00:50:05.639
kids eat drinking soda pop, eating
candy bars, watching movies that maybe the

762
00:50:05.639 --> 00:50:07.960
mothers wouldn't have this. The mothers
that remained inside and the fager men inside

763
00:50:08.159 --> 00:50:14.239
were very upset about this videotape,
and they called the FBI through the only

764
00:50:14.280 --> 00:50:16.480
one phone line that we had,
and they said, you guys are going

765
00:50:16.519 --> 00:50:20.000
expressly against the rules that we set
out when we sent our children out.

766
00:50:20.159 --> 00:50:21.760
I don't want my kids to raise
that way. What are you doing?

767
00:50:21.800 --> 00:50:24.559
Why are you doing this? That's
number one. Number two. I spoke

768
00:50:24.599 --> 00:50:28.599
to a woman, her name was
Julie Martinez, who became a very very

769
00:50:28.599 --> 00:50:31.519
close friend of mine, and Julie
had several children that died in there.

770
00:50:35.199 --> 00:50:40.119
She had five kids that died and
she died as well. And Julie came

771
00:50:40.159 --> 00:50:44.519
to me one night during the stage
in tears. I said, what is

772
00:50:44.559 --> 00:50:47.360
wrong? She says, I just
got off the phone with the FBI and

773
00:50:47.400 --> 00:50:51.559
they made it sound like if I
were to leave here. And I don't

774
00:50:51.559 --> 00:50:54.280
know what words the FBI used with
her, but I know her reaction.

775
00:50:54.320 --> 00:50:57.599
I know she was in tears,
and she said they made it sound like

776
00:50:57.679 --> 00:51:00.360
if I were to leave this building, I would never see my kid again.

777
00:51:00.400 --> 00:51:04.840
They made me feel so cheap and
degrading and dirty for even being there

778
00:51:05.039 --> 00:51:08.440
with David and the people in the
midst of the siege. So you got

779
00:51:08.440 --> 00:51:14.559
parents that have that believe they're never
going to see their kids again, you

780
00:51:14.599 --> 00:51:16.199
know. And maybe it is a
selfish thing, but when it comes down

781
00:51:16.239 --> 00:51:20.320
to a mother and a child,
that's that's a very strong dynamic. And

782
00:51:21.760 --> 00:51:27.320
that's a lot of the reasons why
people stayed in. And incidentally, the

783
00:51:27.440 --> 00:51:30.639
kids were placed under what they were
placed in the only area we had left

784
00:51:30.639 --> 00:51:32.800
to go. Most of the kids
were at the back of the building,

785
00:51:34.119 --> 00:51:37.800
in the concrete structure. They were
placed under wet blankets. Now I've had

786
00:51:37.800 --> 00:51:40.400
federal authorities say, well, they
were placed under the wet blankets, you

787
00:51:40.400 --> 00:51:45.280
know, to make it look like
you guys weren't committing suicide. I think

788
00:51:45.320 --> 00:51:47.480
that's the most ridiculous thing I've ever
heard in my life. They had no

789
00:51:47.559 --> 00:51:52.039
place to go. The back on
April nineteenth was cut off. The media

790
00:51:52.079 --> 00:51:57.400
wasn't allowed back there for some mysterious
reason. According to the infrared videotape that's

791
00:51:57.400 --> 00:52:00.639
on away Go the rules of engagement, and I cite to some my book,

792
00:52:00.599 --> 00:52:05.960
several gunshots were going off at the
back of the building the other tanks.

793
00:52:06.000 --> 00:52:07.960
Now people want to ignore this,
you know, people want to say

794
00:52:07.960 --> 00:52:12.280
that I'm crazy and I'm some kind
of conspiratorial nut for saying this. I've

795
00:52:12.320 --> 00:52:16.639
seen the video. You can go
rented at Blockbuster. We have two explosions

796
00:52:16.679 --> 00:52:21.840
at the back of the building six
minutes before the fire begins. We also

797
00:52:21.920 --> 00:52:27.400
have several rounds of fully automatic weapons. According to Alard, Edward Allard I

798
00:52:27.400 --> 00:52:30.199
believe his name is, he was
one of the gentlemen that holds patents on

799
00:52:30.239 --> 00:52:35.360
the infrared video technology says, this
is absolutely fully automatic weapons fire. Nothing

800
00:52:35.880 --> 00:52:39.360
in nature makes this thermal signature.
And you can see these little flashes going

801
00:52:39.400 --> 00:52:44.320
off two different areas. And the
most amazing thing to me is as the

802
00:52:44.360 --> 00:52:46.960
fires building, you see the flashes
back up. You see the flashes go

803
00:52:47.039 --> 00:52:51.880
from from the forefront closer to the
building and start backing up as the fire

804
00:52:51.960 --> 00:52:55.519
is increasing. I wish I were
making it up, but I'm not.

805
00:52:55.599 --> 00:53:05.760
It's there. Yes, sir,
I'd have a question, and that is

806
00:53:05.960 --> 00:53:13.639
that it seems to me that every
action that the FBI took was directed at

807
00:53:13.719 --> 00:53:21.519
the children. In other words,
when they introduced CS into your Mount Carmel,

808
00:53:22.360 --> 00:53:29.280
and this was discussed in the joint
congressional hearings. They targeted the children.

809
00:53:30.079 --> 00:53:34.800
They targeted the children with the idea
that their mothers would try to save

810
00:53:34.840 --> 00:53:39.360
them and rush out. They also
knew that every adult had a gas mask,

811
00:53:40.400 --> 00:53:45.199
but gas masks are not made for
children because they don't work. Their

812
00:53:45.239 --> 00:53:49.480
lungs are not strong enough. Another
area of targeting the children, I think

813
00:53:49.960 --> 00:53:54.920
was the so called psychological ops program
where they showed the bride lights and the

814
00:53:55.079 --> 00:54:05.000
loud music and the other unusual sounds. They claimed that David Koresh was brutalizing,

815
00:54:05.039 --> 00:54:08.440
In fact, beating quote, beating
the children is what jane A Reno

816
00:54:08.679 --> 00:54:15.320
told her. She was beating babies, was eating babies. And I think

817
00:54:15.360 --> 00:54:24.440
all of us can understand that if
someone is susceptible to violence, then under

818
00:54:24.679 --> 00:54:31.559
stress, he's likely to gauge in
more violence. So these psychological operations again

819
00:54:32.199 --> 00:54:37.800
would target the babies and make them
be beaten more by mister Koresh. So

820
00:54:37.920 --> 00:54:45.079
do you think that the FBI had
any concern for the children as they claimed?

821
00:54:45.079 --> 00:54:47.599
They head not according to the actions. And you know that's such a

822
00:54:47.639 --> 00:54:51.400
great point I'm so glad that you
brought that up during the course of the

823
00:54:51.400 --> 00:54:54.239
fifty one days playing this music.
I mean, you know, I'm a

824
00:54:54.280 --> 00:54:59.679
pretty peaceful person, and there was
one time during the siege where it was

825
00:54:59.679 --> 00:55:01.679
annoy annoying me. To the point
is, when you're tired, you put

826
00:55:01.679 --> 00:55:05.360
in air plugs. You can sleep, you know, through just about anything.

827
00:55:05.400 --> 00:55:07.039
I mean, it's amazing how the
human spirit can adapt. You know,

828
00:55:07.119 --> 00:55:13.360
we're very adaptable. Kids are so
double. Kids are adaptable. But

829
00:55:13.400 --> 00:55:17.639
it will definitely affect children more so
than it would adults. One of the

830
00:55:17.639 --> 00:55:21.480
things that just is absolutely shocking to
me is the fact that they would use

831
00:55:21.480 --> 00:55:25.400
these psychops on the kids. But
more importantly is people have to understand about

832
00:55:25.440 --> 00:55:29.480
the cs gas that they use,
the tear gas that they chose to use

833
00:55:30.320 --> 00:55:34.639
internationally, and I've done a little
research on the subjects. Internationally, we

834
00:55:34.760 --> 00:55:38.320
cannot use cs gas in wartime as
banned. However, there's no law stating

835
00:55:38.360 --> 00:55:43.599
we can't use it against American citizens. According to the now Chemical Report on

836
00:55:43.679 --> 00:55:46.519
cs gas, it says that cs
gas is a riot control agent that is

837
00:55:46.559 --> 00:55:52.039
only to be used outdoors in an
outdoor riot control situation, never to be

838
00:55:52.159 --> 00:55:58.679
used indoors, especially, it says
amongst women and children, especially children whose

839
00:55:58.719 --> 00:56:02.880
respiratory tracts are not developed and could
kill them. Failure Analysis, who was

840
00:56:02.880 --> 00:56:07.880
a scientific organization. They did a
report on the cs gas in the form

841
00:56:07.159 --> 00:56:10.400
the several of the throughout the course
of the six hours of April nineteen,

842
00:56:10.440 --> 00:56:14.280
how much gas they put in there
In some areas of the building they put

843
00:56:14.320 --> 00:56:17.960
in cs gas that was four times
the amount needed de tour a trained soldier,

844
00:56:19.880 --> 00:56:25.079
let alone what that will do to
a little baby boy. I don't

845
00:56:25.079 --> 00:56:31.480
want to lose my next point.
This cs gas is to me was one

846
00:56:31.519 --> 00:56:36.119
of the most barbaric things you could
ever experience. I mean, I can't

847
00:56:36.159 --> 00:56:39.559
believe that they could use that.
And joy Sparks, who was the individual

848
00:56:39.599 --> 00:56:43.920
who was in charge of the state
investigation against Koresh and the child of the

849
00:56:43.920 --> 00:56:47.440
beast issues had come out to the
property. Was she Sheriff's department and question

850
00:56:47.559 --> 00:56:51.960
you Jack carr Will the sheriff of
Waco. We had worked with law enforcement

851
00:56:52.039 --> 00:56:53.760
in the past. We invited the
ATFI. We didn't go looking for them.

852
00:56:53.960 --> 00:56:57.119
They made it sound like we were
looking for them, like we had

853
00:56:57.159 --> 00:57:02.599
some plan. She said in an
interview that she urged the FBI not to

854
00:57:02.639 --> 00:57:06.000
do the cs gas plan to wait
a mount on the seven CE. The

855
00:57:06.000 --> 00:57:09.239
manuscript urged them and said, well, basically, you know, I should

856
00:57:09.239 --> 00:57:12.000
I get my team ready, And
they said, no, I don't worry

857
00:57:12.039 --> 00:57:15.880
about it. One time. Don't
worry about it. You know what were

858
00:57:15.920 --> 00:57:20.840
they planning? One time during the
negotiation, they were asking how many fire

859
00:57:20.840 --> 00:57:24.760
extinguishers we had in there and did
a report. He said, oh,

860
00:57:24.760 --> 00:57:28.840
we have two fire extinguishers in the
building. And the FBI negotiator said,

861
00:57:28.840 --> 00:57:34.000
well, it's about time you buy
some fire insurance. Yea. This might

862
00:57:35.599 --> 00:57:39.719
go figure and brings me up to
my next point real quick. Another interesting,

863
00:57:40.239 --> 00:57:45.119
terrible tragedy that occurred occurred a few
months before our attack. And then,

864
00:57:45.119 --> 00:57:47.480
of course is Randy Weaver and what
happened to his family in the middle

865
00:57:47.639 --> 00:57:52.079
of Idaho, in the middle of
the side of a mountain. And without

866
00:57:52.079 --> 00:57:54.280
getting too detailed, I just want
you to know the mentality of these people,

867
00:57:54.280 --> 00:57:58.719
and this is what happened. This
absolutely is. It came out in

868
00:57:58.760 --> 00:58:06.119
the in the trials for his his
case. His son Samdy Sammy, thank

869
00:58:06.159 --> 00:58:09.760
you, was shot. His dog
started barking. They went down a Marshall

870
00:58:09.800 --> 00:58:14.800
shot the dog. Sammy shot at
the marshal. He ran back and one

871
00:58:14.840 --> 00:58:17.960
of the Marshalls shot and killed him. The next day, Randy Weaver put

872
00:58:19.000 --> 00:58:24.440
his his dead son in the shed
next to the house and was walking was

873
00:58:24.480 --> 00:58:30.199
walking to the main building and FBI
sniper Lon Tihoryuchi, who was one of

874
00:58:30.239 --> 00:58:34.039
the only people that has been left
on the loss. We have a civil

875
00:58:34.079 --> 00:58:37.320
case against the government. Everyone's all
the people were going after has been thrown

876
00:58:37.360 --> 00:58:40.199
off except lontiori Ucci was a who
was a FBI sniper that was there that

877
00:58:40.280 --> 00:58:45.079
day. Lontioryuci gets Vicky Weaver in
his sights. Now he starts opening up

878
00:58:45.079 --> 00:58:51.360
on on on Kevin Harrison and Randy
as they're running into the house. They

879
00:58:51.400 --> 00:58:54.079
got the Vicky's got the door open, she's got her baby in her arms,

880
00:58:54.159 --> 00:58:58.280
and Lantioryochi, from two hundred yards
away with a high power scope shoots

881
00:58:58.280 --> 00:59:01.360
from the face. She falls for
with the baby in her arms. Now,

882
00:59:01.400 --> 00:59:05.840
in the trials, during that particular
case, it was asked, mister

883
00:59:05.880 --> 00:59:08.480
Horriucci, didn't you know from two
hundred yards away that this woman had a

884
00:59:08.480 --> 00:59:12.199
baby in her in her arms?
And he said no, I thought it

885
00:59:12.239 --> 00:59:15.360
was a firearm, so I shot
her. Now, I've talked to snipers

886
00:59:15.360 --> 00:59:20.079
that I've talked to people that have
been in the military. Anyone here in

887
00:59:20.079 --> 00:59:22.440
the military was in the military two
hundred yards away. Do you know what

888
00:59:22.440 --> 00:59:24.480
you're shooting with the high power scope? That's all I want to know.

889
00:59:24.960 --> 00:59:28.599
Yes, you do. This gentleman's
waving his head. Yes, There's several

890
00:59:28.599 --> 00:59:30.039
people from all over this country that
I've spoke to have told me the same

891
00:59:30.079 --> 00:59:34.199
thing. He knew what he was
shooting. But here's the key. The

892
00:59:34.239 --> 00:59:38.400
next day they had speaker system set
up in that little debacle as well.

893
00:59:38.559 --> 00:59:43.800
The next day the negotiators or someone
from the FBI gun on the horn.

894
00:59:43.840 --> 00:59:46.599
They said, Randy, what's VICKI
going to make here for breakfast this morning?

895
00:59:49.400 --> 00:59:53.000
I mean that that's unfathomable to me. To me that our federal authorities,

896
00:59:53.000 --> 00:59:55.679
our servants, people that under constitution
have taken it off to serve the

897
00:59:55.679 --> 00:59:59.519
American public could do that to anybody. I don't care if he's a fascist

898
00:59:59.559 --> 01:00:02.079
or a race it's certain rights.
And this guys was never on trial.

899
01:00:02.239 --> 01:00:05.119
I don't want to get too far
off. I just want you to realize

900
01:00:05.119 --> 01:00:07.840
that this kind of stuff happened us
all the time during the course of the

901
01:00:07.880 --> 01:00:12.159
fifty one days, you know,
I mean the FBI agents would moon us.

902
01:00:12.719 --> 01:00:15.360
You know, the women would be
looking out of the out of the

903
01:00:15.360 --> 01:00:17.239
windows and they'd be mooning us and
sticking their middle finger up at us.

904
01:00:17.800 --> 01:00:27.719
Yeah, this is the federal government, Yes, sir uh, before the

905
01:00:27.760 --> 01:00:30.679
siege, before all the troubles and
the siege began. Describe a typical day.

906
01:00:30.760 --> 01:00:34.599
What did you do? Were you
happy there? What were some of

907
01:00:34.599 --> 01:00:37.679
the dues and dons, rules and
regulations before all the before all the troubles

908
01:00:37.679 --> 01:00:45.559
began. Great question. In my
book a place called Waco. I spent

909
01:00:45.599 --> 01:00:47.840
a lot of time on these issues
because humanly, you go through a lot

910
01:00:47.920 --> 01:00:51.199
of mixed emotions, you know,
you go a lot of the things that

911
01:00:51.239 --> 01:00:52.960
were I questioned a lot of the
things that were going on in there,

912
01:00:53.480 --> 01:00:57.840
but basically I understood one thing,
you know. I mean, some of

913
01:00:57.840 --> 01:01:00.920
the stuff that occurred there was a
part of the plan, and I accepted

914
01:01:00.920 --> 01:01:05.559
it. Generally, we would play
music or build. We spent most of

915
01:01:05.559 --> 01:01:07.079
our days building and beautifying the property. You know, we didn't do that

916
01:01:07.079 --> 01:01:10.599
because we were planning and committing them
ass suicide, you know, we had

917
01:01:10.639 --> 01:01:13.679
put in the tracks. We had
put it. We were building up the

918
01:01:13.679 --> 01:01:16.440
house. We had built a pool
for ourselves, and most of the times

919
01:01:16.440 --> 01:01:21.239
were spent working and in the evenings
we would study, had three square meals

920
01:01:21.320 --> 01:01:24.639
and some of the women would prepare
and we'd all come in knat together and

921
01:01:24.679 --> 01:01:28.840
the studies usually occurred in the evening. That was your basic life. I

922
01:01:28.840 --> 01:01:31.119
mean, there were periods of time
where we would watch movies. Everything was

923
01:01:31.159 --> 01:01:35.039
on occasion. There were times when
everyone would have ice cream. There was

924
01:01:35.079 --> 01:01:37.360
times and we would get burgers,
you know, and everyone in the community

925
01:01:37.400 --> 01:01:42.280
had had a burger. But basically
people stayed there. People were were what

926
01:01:42.719 --> 01:01:45.559
they believe David Koresh was inspired.
I believe David krush was inspired. And

927
01:01:45.599 --> 01:01:49.840
basically we spent our lives learning this
truth because according to the truth, and

928
01:01:49.880 --> 01:01:52.280
I do get into this very deeply
in the book, according to the Truth,

929
01:01:52.360 --> 01:01:58.960
this group was going to be targeted
and was going to be attacked.

930
01:01:59.480 --> 01:02:02.440
You know, we had prepared for
that. At the same time, Korsh

931
01:02:02.480 --> 01:02:07.119
did everything humanly to try to avoid
the situation. He also believed there was

932
01:02:07.159 --> 01:02:09.559
another plan and that that plan could
go forward with music and he could reach

933
01:02:09.599 --> 01:02:15.280
the world that way, so it's
kind of confusing, it's dualistic, and

934
01:02:15.679 --> 01:02:16.840
that was one of the hard things
in writing the book. It took me

935
01:02:16.880 --> 01:02:21.880
several years to even conceive of writing
this book because I thought it was such

936
01:02:21.880 --> 01:02:24.440
a complicated subject. I thought there
was no way I could explain my experience.

937
01:02:25.239 --> 01:02:29.840
I still think to this day there's
aspects of the truth that I don't

938
01:02:29.840 --> 01:02:31.719
even get into. I do not
come I did not want to get into

939
01:02:31.800 --> 01:02:35.840
David's scripture in this book because I
don't believe that that's my role or that

940
01:02:35.880 --> 01:02:37.960
I'm inspired to do that. So
I'm trying to tell the story from my

941
01:02:38.079 --> 01:02:43.719
experience without getting to the hardcore belief
of why we were there. And that's

942
01:02:43.800 --> 01:02:46.519
what's very difficult for me in writing
this book. And you know, I

943
01:02:46.519 --> 01:02:50.440
think it's something that can be researched. There are some of the Dividians that

944
01:02:50.480 --> 01:02:53.159
have written down their version of the
Seven Seals, and anyone that's interested can

945
01:02:53.239 --> 01:02:59.159
look that up on websites. I
couldn't quote the site right now, but

946
01:02:59.199 --> 01:03:01.199
I didn't feel it was my role. But what I did feel was that

947
01:03:01.280 --> 01:03:05.400
you know, we were out there
studying, we were out there living,

948
01:03:05.400 --> 01:03:09.000
and we'd bother no one for sixty
years. You could go on to day,

949
01:03:09.079 --> 01:03:15.960
could dub them all drop if you
really wanted to. Everyone's always free

950
01:03:15.000 --> 01:03:17.599
to leave. That's part of your
free moral agency as a person. I

951
01:03:17.599 --> 01:03:22.000
mean generally, the group did things
together, and the group didn't really depart

952
01:03:22.000 --> 01:03:27.119
from that. I'm considering that we
were one body. According to several scriptures,

953
01:03:27.519 --> 01:03:30.000
if one person does something or does
something that's against the basic rules of

954
01:03:30.000 --> 01:03:35.360
the community, affects the entire community, and so living under that structure.

955
01:03:35.400 --> 01:03:37.880
Yes it was a rigid, a
rigorous tructure, and yes it was a

956
01:03:37.000 --> 01:03:40.119
very monastic lifestyle, but at the
same time, it's a lifestyle that everyone

957
01:03:40.199 --> 01:03:45.559
chose to live, and I could
have left at any time. But consciously,

958
01:03:45.599 --> 01:03:46.719
in my head, I did not
feel that I would be doing the

959
01:03:46.800 --> 01:03:51.039
right thing. I don't think that
I could have been left David to do

960
01:03:51.199 --> 01:03:54.719
my own thing in life and felt
that I could look myself in the mirror.

961
01:03:55.280 --> 01:04:00.760
And I've read several books on psychology
and social proof and and combating mind

962
01:04:00.800 --> 01:04:04.679
control, and I s all kinds
of different literature that's out there, you

963
01:04:04.719 --> 01:04:09.280
know. I think that for me, I just made the decisions I had

964
01:04:09.280 --> 01:04:12.840
to make in life that this was
I was put here for a reason,

965
01:04:12.880 --> 01:04:15.239
to go through this experience for a
reason. You think, do you think

966
01:04:15.239 --> 01:04:20.400
you'd still be there troubles? The
question was, I think I still be

967
01:04:20.400 --> 01:04:24.199
there for the troubles haven't started.
I can't. I don't know. I

968
01:04:24.239 --> 01:04:28.559
think I might, but I also
think maybe twenty years down the road,

969
01:04:28.599 --> 01:04:31.559
I don't know if I could have
curbed my humanity that much. You know,

970
01:04:31.639 --> 01:04:34.079
I'm not a saint. You know, I'm a sinner like the rest

971
01:04:34.079 --> 01:04:39.239
of us. I think there were
people there that were close to saneliness.

972
01:04:40.159 --> 01:04:42.840
I can't ask that question. It's
something that was an experience that I took

973
01:04:42.920 --> 01:04:48.719
day by day. Yes, Sir
Alex Jones, a local radio talk show

974
01:04:48.760 --> 01:04:53.880
host, has been really keeping this
issue alive too over the long before this

975
01:04:54.039 --> 01:04:58.920
latest revelations have been coming out.
He's leading an effort right now to rebuild

976
01:04:58.920 --> 01:05:01.760
the church on the property up there. Do you have anything to do with

977
01:05:01.880 --> 01:05:05.440
that or are you planning on going
back? And who owns that property?

978
01:05:05.519 --> 01:05:09.320
Now, great question, I'm glad
you brought that up. Someone that was

979
01:05:09.360 --> 01:05:15.280
going to get into But the rebuilding
of the church on the ground where all

980
01:05:15.320 --> 01:05:17.519
this people died and and all these
atrocities took place. I think it's a

981
01:05:17.519 --> 01:05:21.679
beautiful thing. And the fact that
so many Texans, due to Alex Jones

982
01:05:21.719 --> 01:05:26.360
and to people that do care and
that do know that they relied to and

983
01:05:26.400 --> 01:05:29.480
do want to know the truth,
have come forward and not only donated their

984
01:05:30.119 --> 01:05:34.679
materials and money to make this project
happen, but they've donated their time.

985
01:05:35.280 --> 01:05:41.360
They've come out on Sundays, and
they've helped to rebuild this church. We

986
01:05:41.400 --> 01:05:45.039
can have a standing monument, a
sanctuary out there, not only for the

987
01:05:45.039 --> 01:05:48.880
people to study, but as a
symbol, a symbol that the human spirit

988
01:05:48.960 --> 01:05:54.440
will endure and we are adaptable.
And as long as you hold onto your

989
01:05:54.840 --> 01:05:58.039
purpose in life or your site,
you don't lose touch with that, with

990
01:05:58.079 --> 01:06:00.639
what you consider to be God and
what you consider to be right for you,

991
01:06:00.360 --> 01:06:03.000
that you can overcome. You know, those people didn't die in vain.

992
01:06:03.039 --> 01:06:06.400
And I think it's just so amazing
to me, especially in Texas here,

993
01:06:06.440 --> 01:06:10.960
because I mean, how much demonization
was there here in this state during

994
01:06:10.960 --> 01:06:13.480
the whole thing. I mean,
I came out of there and I remember

995
01:06:13.480 --> 01:06:16.639
seeing it from the grand jury and
I felt mentally raped. The last thing

996
01:06:16.679 --> 01:06:21.840
I wanted to do was stand before
eighteen people that lived in Waco that looked

997
01:06:21.840 --> 01:06:25.760
at me like I was the biggest
freak they ever saw in their life and

998
01:06:25.800 --> 01:06:29.760
didn't believe a word I said.
That was the most uncomfortable situation I've ever

999
01:06:29.920 --> 01:06:32.599
I've been csgassed, and that was
a little more comfortable in the CS gas

1000
01:06:32.599 --> 01:06:36.480
frankly, so it's incredible that people
have come forward, come forward, and

1001
01:06:36.480 --> 01:06:39.639
every Sunday they go out there and
build. It should be done the next

1002
01:06:39.679 --> 01:06:45.000
couple of months and if anyone that
would like information on the building of the

1003
01:06:45.039 --> 01:06:50.719
structure, they can go to www. Dot InfoWars dot com to get that

1004
01:06:50.760 --> 01:06:58.480
information and also www. Rebuildthchurch dot
com. And that's one word, and

1005
01:06:58.719 --> 01:07:00.800
I just really appreciate it everything there, everyone's done. One of the goals

1006
01:07:00.800 --> 01:07:03.639
I have for my website, which
is a place called Waco dot com,

1007
01:07:03.679 --> 01:07:08.480
is to put the cs gas report
and put all this information the warrants on

1008
01:07:08.559 --> 01:07:12.800
there so people can read it from
themselves. But also I just I should

1009
01:07:12.800 --> 01:07:15.239
have done this years ago, and
frankly, I was not proactive before.

1010
01:07:15.760 --> 01:07:19.199
It took me a lot of time
to go through everything that I had to

1011
01:07:19.239 --> 01:07:21.599
go through in this and then finally
come out on the point where I could

1012
01:07:21.599 --> 01:07:24.840
say, okay, let's take them
on. You know, it's gone far

1013
01:07:25.000 --> 01:07:27.840
enough. My friends are in jail. I could be in jail, not

1014
01:07:27.880 --> 01:07:30.159
that I did anything wrong, but
I could be in jail just for political

1015
01:07:30.239 --> 01:07:32.480
reasons. And I want someone out
there fighting for me. So what I

1016
01:07:32.519 --> 01:07:35.039
want to do is start a petition
to get the guys out of jail.

1017
01:07:36.280 --> 01:07:41.960
I mean, come on, people, you know we can let terrorists go

1018
01:07:42.519 --> 01:07:46.280
and free them for political reasons,
but seven innocent people that are in jail

1019
01:07:46.280 --> 01:07:50.239
on the jury, you know,
I'm sorry, mister establishment, mister Clinton,

1020
01:07:50.239 --> 01:07:55.880
mister FBI, whoever wants to criticize
me on this one. The jury

1021
01:07:56.360 --> 01:07:59.239
said if they had seen all the
evidence that the judges oppressed from them,

1022
01:07:59.280 --> 01:08:02.920
everyone would be released. Everyone that
you had. Your reform woman wants a

1023
01:08:02.960 --> 01:08:09.280
retrial, you know, people like
Edward alert Stone want a retrial. I

1024
01:08:09.320 --> 01:08:12.000
mean, it's time. These people
do not deserve to be they're the wrong.

1025
01:08:12.000 --> 01:08:14.079
People are in jail, and you
know what, if these people have

1026
01:08:14.159 --> 01:08:17.800
to go on suffering and suffering and
suffering, then what a terrible, terrible

1027
01:08:17.800 --> 01:08:23.560
state of affairs we're in here in
this country. Right. Here's the way

1028
01:08:23.600 --> 01:08:29.079
we'll take this flat. Yes,
sir. Here we were listening and using

1029
01:08:29.119 --> 01:08:33.479
the internet on this for some time
when it was very active, and over

1030
01:08:33.680 --> 01:08:38.520
two hundred messages were posted on the
board, and some of the people were

1031
01:08:38.520 --> 01:08:43.479
pathetically trying to cling to the beliefs
that we had that this is a fair

1032
01:08:43.640 --> 01:08:47.439
and honest and nation of laws.
It was unbelievable. My conclusion was that

1033
01:08:47.479 --> 01:08:54.840
the intent from the outset was to
kill everyone. There is I have heard

1034
01:08:54.920 --> 01:09:01.239
nothing to dissuade me from that.
There's a and Los Angeles rabbi said that

1035
01:09:01.560 --> 01:09:06.439
a soul shall be judged not only
by what it says and does, but

1036
01:09:06.479 --> 01:09:13.199
by what it sees and condones by
silence. And though much of that has

1037
01:09:13.239 --> 01:09:15.800
gone. Thank you for being here. Did you have a question while you're

1038
01:09:15.840 --> 01:09:19.399
up? Do you thank you for
your car? It's beautiful. Can you

1039
01:09:19.520 --> 01:09:28.239
feel that the ATF had the plan
of literally putting everyone? The killing of

1040
01:09:28.239 --> 01:09:31.119
the certainly intended to kill the children. What you said about the docent of

1041
01:09:31.199 --> 01:09:39.319
CS the children could not have survived
eight consecutive hours of pumping gas into a

1042
01:09:39.319 --> 01:09:44.479
closed building. It's not possible the
children were dead from that. Well,

1043
01:09:44.560 --> 01:09:46.359
what I think is, and you're
referring to the FBI. I think that

1044
01:09:46.399 --> 01:09:50.399
the atf when they staged their raid
and they had the helicopters firing into the

1045
01:09:50.399 --> 01:09:56.239
building and the agents coming and firing, I think that their goal was to

1046
01:09:56.279 --> 01:09:59.039
get crushed. I mean, I
think that's why they had the helicopters.

1047
01:09:59.039 --> 01:10:02.079
Frankly, and would they targeted the
area they believed was his bedroom, you

1048
01:10:02.119 --> 01:10:06.279
know, they just because they didn't
want that, I mean, and that's

1049
01:10:06.319 --> 01:10:11.079
a great point. Koresh jogged in
front of their house every day for two

1050
01:10:11.079 --> 01:10:13.720
weeks. He was in town all
the time, and the FBI when they

1051
01:10:13.720 --> 01:10:15.720
took over, they said, well, Kresh was isolated. He never came

1052
01:10:15.760 --> 01:10:18.279
out, and all of a sudden, people in Waco in the community said,

1053
01:10:18.279 --> 01:10:21.560
hey, I saw him at Chelsea's
club two weeks ago. You know,

1054
01:10:21.600 --> 01:10:26.079
I saw he was in my store
just the other day, and he

1055
01:10:26.199 --> 01:10:29.039
jogged with about five or six of
the guys. I did it on a

1056
01:10:29.039 --> 01:10:31.319
couple of occasions when I actually felt
like I wanted to try it again the

1057
01:10:31.359 --> 01:10:35.920
shape. I jogged in front of
their house too, two weeks, right

1058
01:10:35.960 --> 01:10:40.960
in front of their undercover house every
single day. They could have gotten not

1059
01:10:41.000 --> 01:10:44.359
only David Koresh, but our core
group of the young men around, wouldn't

1060
01:10:44.479 --> 01:10:46.000
taking him right there. They never
wanted to do it peacefully. That's what

1061
01:10:46.039 --> 01:10:49.520
blows my mind. They I think
they wanted this dynamic entry. I think

1062
01:10:49.560 --> 01:10:53.600
that it's something that we see all
these cop shows, you know, we

1063
01:10:53.640 --> 01:10:55.920
see this, this dynamic entry,
this force. We got to go in

1064
01:10:55.920 --> 01:10:59.359
and get these drug dealers. That's
the point I wanted to make. That's

1065
01:10:59.399 --> 01:11:03.640
the point I wanted to make real
quick. They got the helicopters through the

1066
01:11:03.680 --> 01:11:09.479
only way that they could use helicopters
against American citizens is under a loopola the

1067
01:11:09.520 --> 01:11:12.960
Dea law, where it states that
if you are manufacturing drugs, all of

1068
01:11:12.960 --> 01:11:15.479
a sudden, you can use military
equipment against the evil drug dealers and go

1069
01:11:15.520 --> 01:11:19.199
in and get them. They said
that we had a methin fetamine lab in

1070
01:11:19.239 --> 01:11:23.760
there, and they went to the
governor and she okayed, governor and Richards

1071
01:11:24.720 --> 01:11:28.640
okay the helicopters to be used because
they convinced her and they convinced the authorities

1072
01:11:28.680 --> 01:11:31.479
that there was a methin fetamine lab. David Kresh got people off drugs.

1073
01:11:31.560 --> 01:11:34.680
David Crish didn't take aspirin during the
seat. She wouldn't take aspron He never

1074
01:11:34.680 --> 01:11:39.359
did drugs. They knew that he
never did drugs, but they wanted to

1075
01:11:39.359 --> 01:11:43.239
get the helicopters, so why not
lie. Let's lie, you know,

1076
01:11:43.439 --> 01:11:45.560
well, not only lie to the
American public. You know, hey,

1077
01:11:45.680 --> 01:11:47.199
you know they're sheep. We'll just
lie to them. You know, they're

1078
01:11:47.199 --> 01:11:50.079
going to follow along with what we
say. But let's lie to the authorities.

1079
01:11:50.119 --> 01:11:53.800
We'll lie to the judge, We'll
lie to the governor, We'll lie

1080
01:11:53.800 --> 01:11:57.319
to whoever we can to bring about
the end that we want. And that

1081
01:11:57.439 --> 01:12:02.840
end is very proud. It's very
arrogant, it's very what's the word I'm

1082
01:12:02.840 --> 01:12:06.800
looking for. It's very male violent, you know, and that's not what

1083
01:12:06.880 --> 01:12:11.439
I thought this country was about growing
up, you know, I'll be frank.

1084
01:12:12.359 --> 01:12:15.600
I was raised with some of the
atrocities that were going on in Chile

1085
01:12:15.680 --> 01:12:19.039
and Nicaragua and Panama. You know, anyone sees the Panama deception knows that

1086
01:12:19.039 --> 01:12:23.159
there was something more to what was
going on there, But the fact that

1087
01:12:23.199 --> 01:12:25.800
it happened here on the soil,
it wasn't you know, the government going

1088
01:12:25.840 --> 01:12:29.640
on to other foreign lands and making
this happen, or backing some rebel group

1089
01:12:29.800 --> 01:12:33.039
that's going in and committing mass murders
or backing the Indonesians went in and killed

1090
01:12:33.039 --> 01:12:38.600
the East to Moors, the East
Tim Maurice people. That happened years ago,

1091
01:12:38.880 --> 01:12:41.479
years ago, you know, there
was a massacred. Not just happening

1092
01:12:41.520 --> 01:12:44.159
now. It happened several several years
ago. It took him in like Noam

1093
01:12:44.199 --> 01:12:48.840
Chomsky, to bring this out to
the world. It's just very it's very

1094
01:12:48.840 --> 01:12:51.279
frightening to me, you know.
And now it's happening here in a soil.

1095
01:12:51.399 --> 01:12:57.840
And unfortunately, there's a very large
group of Americans that will sit there

1096
01:12:58.159 --> 01:13:00.039
and they'll see it happen and go
like, well, you know, the

1097
01:13:00.119 --> 01:13:02.359
people are probably bad. They're deserving
what they're getting, and they don't even

1098
01:13:02.439 --> 01:13:06.720
understand what the forefathers built this constitution. Can I take one more? Yep,

1099
01:13:06.960 --> 01:13:14.039
yellous? I come okay. Did
the children have many schooling other than

1100
01:13:14.279 --> 01:13:16.640
like the Bibles? And yeah,
they had homeschooling. There was actually a

1101
01:13:16.720 --> 01:13:19.800
couple teachers that lived there. One
was Sherry Jewel, and she was a

1102
01:13:19.840 --> 01:13:25.760
teacher and she taught the kids,
but was more impressively than the homeschooling.

1103
01:13:25.760 --> 01:13:28.039
And some of them did go to
school for quite some time, and then

1104
01:13:28.079 --> 01:13:30.760
they were taken out of school about
a year before everything happened, and pretty

1105
01:13:30.840 --> 01:13:34.640
much was consistently homeschooling. What impressed
me must about these kids that the older

1106
01:13:34.720 --> 01:13:40.000
kids would take care of the younger
kids and would actually read books to them.

1107
01:13:40.199 --> 01:13:44.319
So the sharing in that community was
unbelievable. The fact that, like,

1108
01:13:44.720 --> 01:13:46.680
you know, a thirteen year old
girl would sit there and read all

1109
01:13:46.720 --> 01:13:49.920
these little kids, and you know, they would just share different stories and

1110
01:13:49.920 --> 01:13:54.800
stuff. They It's like the kids
educated the other kids as well as the

1111
01:13:54.800 --> 01:13:59.239
adults that were in there. So
yes, there was absolutely excellent education for

1112
01:13:59.319 --> 01:14:03.359
the kids. It said, make
a plight about the dynamic entry her.

1113
01:14:04.560 --> 01:14:12.479
Okay, it's the wavelet Mike,
and okay, okay, this is my

1114
01:14:12.520 --> 01:14:16.119
favorite part. I could go on
all night. The dynamic entry is an

1115
01:14:16.119 --> 01:14:21.880
interesting thing. On the one hand, BATF wanted to make a show type

1116
01:14:21.920 --> 01:14:29.439
of entry, But much more importantly, I think, is who provides the

1117
01:14:29.479 --> 01:14:34.920
justification for everything that happened? To
legal authority and the provision of illegal authority

1118
01:14:35.039 --> 01:14:42.880
comes from the Office of US Attorney, a branch of the Justice Department,

1119
01:14:43.399 --> 01:14:51.159
and it was the Assistant US Attorney
William Johnson, who participated every aspect,

1120
01:14:51.399 --> 01:14:58.760
every aspect of the event in Waco
from beginning to the prosecution, and he

1121
01:14:58.880 --> 01:15:04.079
is the man who demanded. He
demanded of the BATF that the entry be

1122
01:15:04.199 --> 01:15:09.880
one such that mister Koresh could not
get rid of any of the end of

1123
01:15:09.920 --> 01:15:14.479
the evidence. He said, I
won't prosecute it unless you do an entry

1124
01:15:15.239 --> 01:15:18.039
that doesn't give him a chance.
That if you give him a chance to

1125
01:15:18.079 --> 01:15:23.760
dispose the evidence, I will not
prosecute. So he gave the BATF the

1126
01:15:23.800 --> 01:15:30.600
authority, in my opinion, to
do their so called dynamic entry. He

1127
01:15:30.760 --> 01:15:32.399
was behind it, and then of
course he was the one involved in that

1128
01:15:32.439 --> 01:15:39.840
affidavit. He helped prepare it with
all its errors and misstatements. He gave

1129
01:15:39.880 --> 01:15:44.239
it to Judge Green, a former
prosecutor himself, and said, here,

1130
01:15:44.359 --> 01:15:46.640
here it is. The judge is
supposed to look at it as a neutral

1131
01:15:46.680 --> 01:15:53.039
party. Instead he rubber stamped it. And Johnston was involved in every aspect

1132
01:15:53.159 --> 01:15:57.039
of it. In my opinion,
if there's one single person most responsible for

1133
01:15:57.079 --> 01:16:00.880
the whole incident, it's William Johnston. One point I want to make to

1134
01:16:00.920 --> 01:16:06.279
that, and then we do got
a close is also it's pretty amazing to

1135
01:16:06.319 --> 01:16:12.119
see the turnaround that Johnson has done
and you have to understand that when Mike

1136
01:16:12.199 --> 01:16:15.199
McNulty started to go into the evidence
locker, which brought this whole thing back

1137
01:16:15.199 --> 01:16:19.159
into the press again. When he
started to do that, he started to

1138
01:16:19.199 --> 01:16:23.359
turn a lot of people around,
like Lee Hancock of the Dallas Morning News,

1139
01:16:23.399 --> 01:16:27.119
who broke this. Now, Lee
Hancock was never ever favorable to us.

1140
01:16:27.159 --> 01:16:30.600
Of the Davidian, she wrote some
of the most incredible pieces of that

1141
01:16:30.920 --> 01:16:34.319
just disgusted me while this is happening, and now she turned around. William

1142
01:16:34.399 --> 01:16:40.199
Johnson wrote a letter to Attorney General
Jannerino and said, there's a lot you

1143
01:16:40.239 --> 01:16:44.000
don't know that we have found out
that I think the FBI and people are

1144
01:16:44.079 --> 01:16:46.960
hiding from you and covering from you
that you need to be aware about.

1145
01:16:47.239 --> 01:16:51.680
They pulled him off. He's no
longer working anymore because they say that they

1146
01:16:53.039 --> 01:16:55.159
want to use him for a witness, so they can't have him in that

1147
01:16:55.399 --> 01:16:59.239
capacity. So he's been pulled off
of his official duties, basically lost his

1148
01:16:59.319 --> 01:17:01.680
job, if you will, well, because he made this aware to Jane

1149
01:17:01.680 --> 01:17:04.600
Arena, I mean, it's very
strange to me. So it's like the

1150
01:17:04.680 --> 01:17:10.479
higher ups, I mean, people
that were responsible for getting koresh have done

1151
01:17:11.039 --> 01:17:14.359
a lot of them have done in
the complete turnaround, and it's just amazing

1152
01:17:14.399 --> 01:17:17.279
to see people in power and people
in authority, people with prestige coming forward

1153
01:17:17.319 --> 01:17:23.199
and doing this turnaround. I mean, it just shows how powerful that this

1154
01:17:23.680 --> 01:17:29.159
media structure is and that this government
is in deceit and in taking you away

1155
01:17:29.239 --> 01:17:32.199
from what is really going on.
And so on the one hand, yeah,

1156
01:17:32.199 --> 01:17:34.920
I think your point's valid, but
I think that at this point,

1157
01:17:35.000 --> 01:17:40.520
I think mister Johnson's doing the right
thing, and I hope that more people

1158
01:17:40.520 --> 01:17:42.600
do with the right thing. I
mean, there's one thing I can say.

1159
01:17:43.640 --> 01:17:48.439
I'll end with this. My view
of the Constitution. My view of

1160
01:17:48.439 --> 01:17:59.079
my studies of George Washington, Jefferson
Lincoln, and the document and inspired document

1161
01:17:59.159 --> 01:18:03.079
we live by called the Constitution,
is that if you take an not I

1162
01:18:03.079 --> 01:18:06.279
don't care if you're a traffic cop, are you the president of the United

1163
01:18:06.319 --> 01:18:10.560
States of America. My belief is
if you raise your hand and you put

1164
01:18:10.560 --> 01:18:13.239
your other hand on the Bible and
you'd take an oath to serve the American

1165
01:18:13.279 --> 01:18:16.199
public, that's what you are.
You're a servant. If you're taken oath

1166
01:18:16.199 --> 01:18:20.319
to serve the American public, then
you should be held by that oath,

1167
01:18:20.359 --> 01:18:25.199
and I think if you violate that
oath, then I think the punishment should

1168
01:18:25.199 --> 01:18:29.920
be severe, more severe than an
average citizen who hasn't taken any oath that

1169
01:18:30.359 --> 01:18:32.039
does a crime, they go to
jail. Right. Well, if we

1170
01:18:32.079 --> 01:18:39.079
don't hold our official authorities responsible,
then we're going to have problems that we've

1171
01:18:39.079 --> 01:18:42.760
seen, Like in Oklahoma, there
are people that would in a nation of

1172
01:18:42.760 --> 01:18:45.960
two hundred and fifty million people,
you got some fringes out there. You

1173
01:18:46.039 --> 01:18:49.000
got some people that don't understand what's
going on, some people that can't handle

1174
01:18:49.000 --> 01:18:54.520
their anger and they do insane things. And if the government does not be

1175
01:18:54.560 --> 01:18:58.479
truthful with us, if they do
not hold the people that are responsible for

1176
01:18:58.560 --> 01:19:02.520
lying to us and responsible for shooting
us and responsible for deceiving us, those

1177
01:19:02.520 --> 01:19:06.960
people are not held responsible, then
there will be more people that aren't so

1178
01:19:08.319 --> 01:19:12.359
level headed that'll do terrible, terrible
acts. And the problem is is the

1179
01:19:12.359 --> 01:19:16.159
government in the media, we'll blame
it on constitutionalists, they'll blame it on

1180
01:19:16.319 --> 01:19:20.159
us. Radicals like David Thibodeau is
out there speaking against the government. I

1181
01:19:20.199 --> 01:19:24.000
love this nation, you know,
I think we've got the best form of

1182
01:19:24.039 --> 01:19:26.239
government on the face of the earth. But I know that we can make

1183
01:19:26.239 --> 01:19:30.439
it better. You know, there
should be reason before there's any active force.

1184
01:19:31.800 --> 01:19:36.800
And if there isn't, then then
why am I here? Why are

1185
01:19:36.800 --> 01:19:40.479
we here? You know? Why
don't we still deceive ourselves and think we're

1186
01:19:40.520 --> 01:19:43.760
living by these principles? That's all. I just want justice, you know,

1187
01:19:43.760 --> 01:19:45.319
I'm not out for revenge. I
want justice. There are people that

1188
01:19:45.359 --> 01:19:49.359
are walking around that are guilty of
lying, of killing, of shooting,

1189
01:19:49.439 --> 01:19:51.880
of gassing, and there are people
that are in jail that are innocent.

1190
01:19:53.319 --> 01:19:58.600
And until the paradigm shifts, then
we're going to have problems. And I

1191
01:19:58.600 --> 01:20:03.479
don't want my nation to have problems
anymore. Thanks for rush Shaving, I

1192
01:20:03.520 --> 01:20:24.720
have him good. Hm. We
stand by the fire. You're tiny,

1193
01:20:24.920 --> 01:20:32.920
head in mind, you're five feet
off the ground. You raise some sholder,

1194
01:20:35.159 --> 01:20:42.239
the stars convey the lies, some
fratchild in the night. In this

1195
01:20:42.520 --> 01:20:55.560
small man, in this small man, forever be forever be in this smament,

1196
01:20:57.279 --> 01:21:14.079
in this smallment, for river be
for hy n face sygo is spird

1197
01:21:14.359 --> 01:21:24.960
song, Sada rush a song,
Oh wit wo belong fadeing the what to

1198
01:21:25.439 --> 01:21:31.800
a memory, A picture from the
wall. The moment. Fro said that

1199
01:21:32.359 --> 01:21:45.880
fall in this fall man, in
this fall forever be forever be in this

1200
01:21:46.239 --> 01:22:28.079
fall man, in this moment,
fore be for h be. I don't

1201
01:22:28.159 --> 01:22:40.159
really want to think about it.
Somewhat shop open this week. I don't

1202
01:22:40.800 --> 01:22:48.079
want to think about it. I
just want to say, in this moment,

1203
01:22:50.199 --> 01:23:10.199
in this moment, in this moment, in this mom Rera Beigby,

1204
01:23:17.239 --> 01:23:25.159
you're listening to the Fact Hunter Radio
Network. Just the Facts, Mammy,