The following presentation is Del Marvis Studio's production. You're listening to the fact Hunter
Radio Network. Here is your host, George Hobbs. Welcome back, fact
hunters and truth seekers from around the world. It's time for another edition of
a classic audio series, and tonight we'd like to tip the cap to our
friend Joe for providing this link. I've come up upon it before, It's
been a while since I had listened to it. As many longtime listeners know,
every April nineteenth, we have a show five or six hours during the
day where we reflect on both Oklahoma City and Waco. And for the next
eighty minutes or so, you're going to listen to the testimony of one of
the Waco survivors. His name is David Thibodeau. Born and raised in Bangor,
Maine. He was one of the survivors of the tragedy that unfolded at
Mount Carmel near Waco, Texas. What has it been thirty years now?
Right? And for those again brand new to the rabbit Holes. February nineteen
ninety three, the ATF rated David Koresh's Branch Davidian Compound. It was a
small religious community and it triggered out, you know, this long drawn out
gun battle that resulted in many, many lost lives. After a fifty one
day standoff, the conflict ended with an FBI assault that led to a fire
that everybody remembers, that image engulfing the Branch Davidian compound killed seventy six people,
which most were Thibodeau's friends and people who he considered family. The interview
you're going to hear today was from nineteen ninety nine. It was his book
that he was promoting. It's called a Place called Waco, a Survivor's Story.
And again for the next eighty minutes, he doesn't mince any words.
And again, for those who have not been down this rabbit hole before,
whom may be new to the truth community, you're really going to understand how
evil our government is, how they spun these just crazy people, right,
that's what they told the American people. These people were nuts, and they
were a threat to our lives. And the fact is they did everything by
the book. Now, look are they perfect. Of course they're not perfect,
but nobody is. But to justify it with killing seventy six men,
women, and children, and for nobody to be held accountable for it is
simply absurd. So again thanks to our friend Joe for sharing this link.
It runs eighty minutes and enjoy, God bless everyone, have a great rest
of your week. And without any further ado, here is David Thibodeaux from
nineteen ninety nine. Well everyone, I want to say again thank you very
much for coming tonight. We're very excited to have David Thibodeau here. He's
going to be speaking and then we'll take some of your questions for about half
an hour. Please help me welcome David Tibodeau. Okay, ahead, thing,
I'm used to standing when I do these things, but this this will
be a different form. Thank you so much all for coming out. It's
a pleasure to be here tonight in the live music capital of the world,
Austin, Texas. And I'm very proud to be an Austin night now.
And uh, it's different when you do I've done these for the last couple
of weeks then quite a few signings, and it's just it's just different when
you see your your your your crowd here from from the place that you live.
So thank you for coming out. I guess I'll start off at the
beginning. I'm going to try to keep it brief. Sometimes I tend to
get a little sidetracked because in this issue there's so much to cover and one
of the problems I guess I'll start with one of the problems with with with
the with the trials that occurred in San Antonio six and a half year years
ago, up to the Senator dan forth in in quest that's going to be
occurring on coming up in the next couple of months. Is the trials in
San Antonio focused on the events of February twenty eighth and the BATF attack,
and basically they tried the people, eleven of them on conspiracy to commit murder
charges, which everyone was acquitted of that charge. Several of them were found
guilty of a lesser charge of aiding and a betting voluntary manslaughter. But due
to a little snaffu well, the jury was given a ninety four page rule
book that they had to follow in the trials, I see a lot of
people shaking their head. I mean, a jury should be able to hear
all the evidence. That's the way I view it, and they shouldn't be
limited by a federal judge saying this is what you have to do when you
make your decision. So they were basically five of them were found guilty of
having a foot well, nine of them were found guilty of having a final
arm during what the judge called the commission of a crime for February twenty eighth,
and that is when the BTF attacked you had a gun in your hand.
Basically you went to jail. Some of them are in jail for forty
years on a weapons violation that the jury felt was thrown out according to the
count three aspect of the verdict. So I have talked to Sarah Baine,
that hed jury four woman that was there that day at the trials in San
Antonio, and she said, had we seen all the evidence that we had
seen since the trials that the judge suppressed from us, we would have acquitted
everybody on all charges. So basically, right now there's seven political prisoners,
some of which have been under very harsh conditions in various institutions throughout the country.
Some of them are there for forty years on a weapons violation that the
jury was thrown out. And I think that's a very important point to make.
The whole problems with the trials in San Antonio was the fact that the
judge focused only on February twenty eighth, And my concern is with the hearings
of Dan Forth, he's only going to focus on the events of April nineteen
and what happened at the back of the building, and of course the infrared
videotape that we'll be discussing a little later. So the big problem that I
have is you can't really understand Waco. You can't understand what really happened there
unless you handle it from A to Z and you cover everything in between.
Because what the FBI did when they set up their speaker systems, it was
so crass. The light systems. Literally the psychological effect of here's a guy
that they say, David Koresh is a person's very unstable and you have a
bunch of religious wackos is what we've been called consistently throughout the course of the
fifty one days. And their plan is to play loud music, the sounds
of rabbits being slaughtered to Benton's monk chanting dig just Faery is taking the phone
off the hook for forty eight hours at a time. So their plan was
to make us even more unstable. That doesn't make a lot of sense to
me. So the point I wanted to make in opening up is I hope
Senator Dan For with a former Senator Dan Forth, and I hope that some
of the civil cases and the Senate inquest it's going to be taking place,
we'll focus more than just on April nineteenth, because you'll never be able to
see the big picture unless you focus on the whole thing from A to Z.
So with that, I'd like to start off by saying, I'm David
Thibodeau, and I grew up in Bangor, Maine, And ever since I
was a little kid and I first picked up drumsticks, I knew what I
wanted to do with my life. I wanted to play music, and so
I did everything in my power to make that dream happen. Once I graduated
from high school, I got a job, I started saving up to go
to Los Angeles. I played in several bands, came home to school every
single day and played the drums and just lived in that little world, literally
closing my eyes and seeing thousands of people in front of me and just getting
off on the rush of what that would be like every day. And that
was my only goal in life, setting out in this whole adventure. And
I ended up in Hollywood finally, and I graduated from music school, and
over the course of the next six months or so, I was playing in
a band out there, and I had a dead end. I was working
at Man's Shiny Seater at the gift shop, and I had one of those
stupid red smocks on. And I remember one day I was so frustrated with
my wife. I looked up to the heavens, or at least I looked
up to the ceiling of Man's Shiny Cedar, and I said, Lord,
what are you saving me for? You know, when can I finally meet
the people and I'm supposed to meet so I can start my life, so
I can do what I want to do instead of being in this rut.
And I said, you know, just please make this happen. I know
that I'm here for a reason. I know that I'm not here just aimlessly
walking through life in Hollywood living, you know, living with a bunch of
guys in a one room apartment. And two days later, I was late
for a band rehearsal. I had my band members with me and I made
them literally made them they didn't want to do it. I made them stop
at Guitar Center on Sunset Boulevard so I could buy some drumsticks. And when
I did, I walked into the electronic drum room, which I had a
very bad habit of doing. They always had a kid set up and I
would always sit down and play it. And there were these two gentlemen that
were standing there looking at the electronic drum set and they asked me if I
was a drummer. So I was, and I sat down I played the
drums for him. They said that they were be interested in purching this kit
and they wanted to hear it. So I sat down and played for three
minutes or so, and when I got up the guy there was a guy
in a business suit, and there was a guy in a T shirt with
ragged jeans. It was just kind of really laid back and the guy the
suit if he will approach me, and he says, wow, you know
pretty good drummer. We're looking for one for our band, or would you
be interested in getting together with us? I said, yeah, sure,
and I'm in a band now, but I'm always interested to play with different
people. And so they handed me their card and I looked at the card
and on the back of the car there was all this religious scripture. I
was revolving around the Kingdom to be set up, but I didn't realize that
at the time, nor did I really care. I saw the religious scripture
and I handed the card back to him. I said, well, thank
you very much. You know, I'm the spiritual person, but I don't
believe that I'm really looking to be in a Christian band at this time.
And that's when Steve piped up and he said, well, you know,
it's like this, we're not really a Christian band. What we are as
we've studied the Scripture. I've been all over the world with this guy,
David Koresh, and he introduced David, and David didn't really say too much.
He just kind of sat back and let Steve do most of the talking.
He said, I've been all over the world, and you know,
I've we've studied this this this book they call him the Bible. We ripped
it apart and we just have some insights to it. And you know,
really all we want to do is play music right now. And you know,
we do have a message that is revolving around the scripture, but you
know, it's really not our focus right now. We just would like to
play music with you. I said, okay. I kind of left with
the attitude don't call me, I'll call you. And a couple of days
later, you know, things weren't going so wrong. I just started thinking
about this, and I was really impressed with the suits. And he was
a very good orator, you know, Steve Schneider, and and David is
just real quiet and you know, kind of mysterious. He said a few
things, and then I gave him a call, and over the course of
the next day or so, we got together and went They had a property
in Pomona, It's about forty five minutes out of Hollywood, and we went
there and played some music. I thought David was a great guitarist. I
met their artist, Cliff Sellers, who had paint airbrushed guitars, and it
was just they seemed to really have it together. They were very professional,
and that's something that I liked well. Over the course the next couple months,
I got to know him a little better, and specifically, Steve Schneider
would come over with some of the guys and give us studies because I said,
you know, we want to show you some of these things out of
this book. And I remember the first night I had my roommates and they
were all sitting around. I said, hey, I forgot to tell you,
guys, but I have a couple of people coming over for we're going
to have a Bible study. I hope you don't mind. And they were
like, why didn't you tell us? You know, I could have gotten
a day with my girlfriend, or we could have gone out to the movies
or something, you know, and they were literally reaching for their coats when
the knot came at the door and it was Steve Schneider and as Jamie Cassillo,
Greg Summers, just several of the younger guys were there. I even
think Cliff was there. Let's see, Peter was there, Peter Hipsmian and
you should have seen the look on their faces when the door knoed and I
opened the door and they all came in and said, hey, you know,
I mean you're already They had a twelve pack of beer with him.
You know. All of a sudden, my roommate said, well, you
know, I think we can stay for a few minutes and let's to do
what they got to say. And I just remember when Steve Schneider sat down
and he had this one inch margin Bible, you know, we can make
your notes. And he opened that book and every page that he had had
all this grit, had all this cross references color coded in it on every
single page. It was just absolutely filled with cross references. Instantly, I
was impressed because I could see that these I was never impressed, and I
hope I don't offend anyone here, but I was never impressed with the TV
preachers and the hypocrisy of not all, but several organized religions. You know.
I was always more into the small movements of religion that seemed to be
a little more pure in heart. And then as they grow, and of
course it becomes a money financial institution, it tends to lose focus a little,
I think a lot. And so I was impressed with the way that
they ripped the Bible apart, and they had really done their research and studied.
And that's what impressed me was the fact that it was more of an
intellectual study, that it wasn't indoctrinization or they never came off preachy that would
have turned me off instantly. And so they went through their study and two
hours later, I'm looking around, my roommates are still sitting there. I
to me that was an act of God. And I remember the course of
the next couple months, we got together severalcations and had studies. Then one
day David Kriesh invited me out to Waco, Texas, a place called Waco
and he said to be we're going out there for Passover, which is one
of the two week periods of the festival periods of God in the scripture.
And he said, literally, there's going to be hundreds of people from all
over the world that are going to be coming to learn these truths. He
says, you're going to meet, you know, the people that are carpenters,
people that are architects, people that have gone to seminary school, people
that are pastors in their own churches in England. I said, well,
that sounds kind of interesting, and he asked me if I wanted to go,
and at the time I was pretty adventure simmon. I did. So.
We pulled up to Mount Carmel and I took a look at all the
single buildings that line the place up and I just thought it was one of
the strangest places I'd ever seen in my life. And we got there a
week early, so we started playing some music and stuff, and people started
arriving, and I started to question these people. I said, why are
you here? What do you hope to gain from this? And I must
have talked to ten or fifteen different people at various times, and they basically
all told me the same thing. They said that they had learned more about
the Scripture from this person, David Koresh, and they had their whole lives
studying on their own or being pastors or going to seminary school. And it's
just like everyone seemed to have the same testimony. So I wanted to see
what it was going to be, you know, what it was really all
about. I always knew that there was a mystery to this book. I
always wondered in my life, how come so many thousands and thousands of people
have died, put their lives on the line and sacrificed their lives for this
scripture throughout the course of time. See that has a power to it.
And over the course of that too. I remember the very first study and
the reason that I'm relating the stories because a lot of people ask me,
you know, how could you follow someone like David Koresh. People say this,
but they have no idea who he was. All they know is what
they've heard, and they've made their judgments because they've heard some very bad things.
Well, there's always two sides of the story. In this case,
there's I think hundreds of sides to the story. The first study that he
gave me, he hit a Bible. He had a Bible, and he
held it up. He says. Most people see this book and they see
two pieces of cow leather with a bunch of pages in between, and they
spend their life trying to unravel the mystery or get some kind of basic truth
out of it. He says, No, when I see, and he
held up to his forehead, he goes, when I see it, I
see it panoramically, as if it's happening now, from Genesis to Revelation,
right now, as it's happening. That was pretty tough pill to swallow.
But over the course of the next two weeks, we had studies that would
last anywhere from ten to twelve hours a day, and they were they were
very entertaining. I mean, it wasn't something that I thought dry. I
mean I actually started to become involved and become part of this world of the
scripture, and it was something that I started to embrace, and I literally,
over the course that two weeks, came to believe, you know,
that wasn't even one hundred percent sure if this was the final messager, this
was the messenger, but I came to believe that David did see the scripture
that way, panoramically, as if it had happened, as if he had
been there when he gave a study. He gave a study with literally the
looks on the faces of the people that are written in the scripture, so
you could actually see the sarcasms, you could see the nuances of the communication
that was taking place in the Bible, where before I could never see that
reading. And on my own it just made me go to sleep, frankly,
and so it was something that held the interest. I think one thing
that I saw David do on several occasions, and he did this with me
as well. After that two or three week period when everyone started to leave,
played music a little more, and you know, I was trying to
absorb all this stuff. He says, what I want to do now,
is you know. I want you to be my drummer. I want you
to be in the band, but you've have now have the basic foundations of
the seven Seals, first five seals, if you will, And what I
want to do is you would you like to go to Maine and see your
parents? Absolutely, I'd love to go see my parents. You know,
it was on him right why not? And my head was spinning. Frankly,
I definitely needed some time to absorb it all, and so he sent
me up to Many said, you know, take a couple of weeks,
take a month, take whatever time you need. If you find that you
know and ask people about these seven Seals, go to preachers, go to
rabbis, go to anybody, and if they have some insight into the seals,
let me know. I might be interested. But if I'm pretty sure
that you're going to find that no one even knows what they are or the
most people are going to say that there's a mystery and we're waiting for Christ
to come back before those things can be revealed. If they don't know,
and you want to learn more, come on back. You know, we
want to have you in. And I said, well, okay, that's
pretty fair. Well over the course of the next month, I went to
Maine and I got a call one day about a month later, and I
was putting it off because I was convicted at this point. I mean,
I had known that there was something there, but at the same time,
I didn't really want to entirely give up my life and just go and live
on what we call the Ant Hill because we got the Texas fire ants here
and there's several at Mount Carmel. So I ended up going back, and
I ended up going back to Hollywood, and several events took place, if
you will, I'm gonna kind of wrap it up real quickly here. Within
six months we ended up being in Hollywood, we ended up moving to Mount
Carmel. There's several events that took that took place that are really important,
But because I really want to get to questions, you're gonna have to look
it up in the book. But a lot of very very interesting, very
deep things happened to me during that period of time that I was in Hollywood,
and a lot of them revolved around a certain friend of mine who was
in a band as well out there, and Koresh had some insights that literally
just just just blew me away. He could know this about my friend,
and all these things were factors. So we ended up moving to Mount Carmel
about a year before the Batf attack of February twenty eighth, and throughout that
year we tore down the little houses and we started to build up the major
complex there called Mount Carmel, and the big building that everyone saw, we
built a swimming pool. David Koresh and Steve Schneider would. Steve would he
was a brilliant salesman. I mean Steve basically would negotiate all the deals.
We ended up getting go karts, building a track the children, some of
the Agro boys got small dirt bikes and we would all go out and play
on the track. What ended up happening is through a person that I met
in Waco, and we had ties in Waco. I mean, this wasn't
some community that was just totally within themselves out in the middle of nowhere.
I mean the branch of Indians, or what became to be known as a
Branch of Indians, actually the branch of he and stemmed from an earlier group
that had lived out there, had been there for sixty years. David Koresh
was the third of what people out there called inspired or if you will,
a profit, and he was the third one to get the complete vision of
the Seven Seals. Before them, there was Hattaf and Lois Rodin who preceded
David. So it wasn't just some fly by night group that David started.
It was something that built off a foundation of several years, and there were
several people that had been there almost from the inception of it, who tell
me stories that David first came on the scene. His name was Vernon Howell.
When he first came on the scene, he was basically he could barely
formulate a sentence. I mean, he had a great knowledge of the scripture,
but he was no order. He was great with working on cars,
but he stuttered. He had a stuttering problem. And literally after nineteen eighty
five, when he claimed to have his vision of the Seven Seals, he
started to talk very clearly, very concisely, and it was almost like an
overnight transformation that a lot of the older people there told me about, which
I thought was very impressed. Impressive. Well, I ended up meeting someone
whose father was Henry McMahon, who was a licensed firearm dealer that ran a
place called the Hewitt Handguns and was right outside of Waco and Hewett, Texas.
But and Henry basically started to get studies from David and started to learn
a lot of things and thought that, you know, David was someone that
was very special, someone was very inspired and started to take David to gun
shows. I mean that was kind of his forte And through these little excursions
of going to gun shows here in Texas, they David and Paul and Steven
Schneider found out a couple things. They found out that because of all the
the legislations coming down the pike of two two three round is going up in
value, that AK forty seven's are going up in value from five hundred dollars
to two thousand dollars overnight. And you started to they started to actually take
on the business of going to gun shows and doing everything legally, having the
yellow sheets on all the firearms and basically buying and selling legally. There were
people inside that made vests hunters vests that were sold at the gun shows,
as well as several other things that occurred. And one of the things that
ended up happening is as we were building the pool that summer, helicopters started
to fly by really low, and you know, we could tell they were
taking pictures. We knew that, you know, we were being watched.
I mean, you know, a big group of people out there in the
middle of nowhere. It's pretty strange according to most people, which most Americans
tend to forget that America was founded on a bunch of religious extremists that came
to this nation and started to put together the Constitution. And I think it's
important to remember that the Baptists were scourged in the streets when they first came.
And I'm sure a lot of you know about the history of the Mormons
and what they had to suffer when they were first starting with their particular doctrine.
And so it comes from a long foundation of I guess killing or being
up what you can understand or what you don't want to understand, or is
specifically what the establishment can understand. And from this point that Henry came into
being, that's when all the gun stuff started happening. A couple other interesting
things took place. Well, Henry McMahon one day gave us a call and
he had been raided by the BATF The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms,
and they were going through all his yellow sheets and they started to ask
Henry and David Aguilera, the b ATF agent headed up the whole investigation,
he started to ask a lot of questions about David Koresh to Henry. He
says, well, Henry says, you're investigating me. Why you're asking me
all these questions about Krush? You should investigate Koresh or go speak with him.
So Henry excused himself in one of the kitchen and this all came out
to trials in San Antonio. Everything I'm saying I can prove has happened.
So Henry McMahon went into the other room. He got the phone and he
called David and he said, David, the BATF for here, and they're
rating me. They're going through all my yellow sheets and asking me a lot
of questions about you. What do you want me to do? And Chris
said, well, once't you have him come on out to the property.
This is about two to three months before February twenty eighth. Have them come
out to the property. They can check out any of the yellow sheets on
any of the firearms that we purchased. They have any questions, but he
yet put them on the phone. I'll speak to him. Henry McMahon went
into the other room and he said, I have David Koresh on the phone.
He wants to speak to you. He's and buy the out to the
property. And David Aguilera shook his head and waved his hands above his head
like this. He didn't want to speak to David. Never wanted to ever
try to make any contact with David, other than when the four individuals ended
up moving across the street, which was going to bring me my next story.
These four guys move across the street one day out of the blue.
This is about a month or so before the initial attack. And when they
did this, there was four guys move in a two room house. They
bring in all this heavy equipment. You know, they don't move in furniture,
but they move in this equipment and they start to set up their little
surveillance. And over the course of the next couple of days, well,
there was an event that took place I think is pretty funny. Greg Summers
at the request that David brought over some beer and some pizza to the guys
across the street to kind of welcome them, welcome, welcome them to the
neighborhood. And seeing you say, there's only two people in the neighborhood,
you know, why not make friends with their neighbors. And so they knocked
at the door and they said, yeah, we're from across the street.
We just wanted to bring you guys over some beer and some pizzas and say
hi. And this hand came out of the door, grabbed the pizza,
pulled the pizza in and slammed the door and said, thank you. I
got my girl in here. So that's pretty strange, you know, I
mean, obviously either he had his girl in there there definitely wasn't something they
did not want us to see. So over the course of the next week
or so, they did come in and finally make contact. The guy named
Robert Rodriguez or Robert Gonzalez, the ones an alias one's his real name.
I think Rodrigus was the name of was the alias came over, started to
make contact with David and basically over the course of the next he had nine
to thirteen contacts with David I believe it was nine, and David instantly started
giving him studies. Robert was a man that was raised Catholic, and as
David would give him studies, I could see this look on his face.
I mean it was like he was starting to get his question answers. Like
myself and all the people that were there, literally, David could answer all
our questions from a scriptural standpoint. Steve Schneider and Wayne Martin and Paul Fatta,
they tried to rip them apart for months before they joined this community,
and they couldn't do it. There was an interview that this individual did with
the Washington Times. I believe it was right after the well April nineteenth in
the place burned the ground, and he said a couple of very interesting things.
One was that the interviewer said, was David close? Meaning were you
close to being in the community or being converted if you will? He said,
yeah, it was close. I think that's very interesting. He said
in other statements that the agents had to shake him up and say, you're
here to do a job. You know you're not here to get converted.
Robert, come on. He also said that when the FBI took over,
the FBI said, what can you tell us about David? What's going to
happen next? And Robert said, well, give me a Bible. I'll
show you exactly what he's going to do next from that scripture. And the
FBI looked at him like he was crazy. They wanted nothing to do with
it. And then Robert said, he went out through his Bible awayne and
you know, it was very sorrowful. He'd lost four friends that day.
And I think it's really interesting that the BATF I mean, Robert said he
saw no signs of illegal activity during the time he was in there, and
they still went forward with the raid. I mean, they have an undercover
guy in there. Why won't they work with their own undercover agent. Why
won't they listen to what he's saying. We'll talk about the warrant in a
minute. But after this period of time, the Waycoach Tribune Herald put out
what they call this seven part series, a sinful Messiah series that was very
demonizing him. It's just a very harsh piece. They didn't ask for our
side of the story at all. And they started to talk about if you're
a Branch Davidian, you believe Price lives on a threadbare in piece of land
in the middle of Waco, Texas, and he's a beer drinking, guitar
tote and gun toting preacher. That's how it started. That's like the headline,
right, and that's the first of a seven part series, because so
you can imagine that we pretty much saw that something was about to take place.
Now, the problem, I have several problems, but the first of
many problems that I have with the BATF attack is number one. When you
look at the warrant and rip it apart. Basically, they went to the
judge, a Judge Green, under false pretenses. They relied on information that
was the child abuse information and allegations came from a guy named Mark Brow who
studied under David for several years and then left. They relied on information that
was five years old. Under federal law, when you go to a judge,
you have to have current information at least six months old or at the
most six months old before you can get a warning against someone. Davey Aghlir,
who headed up that report, said that Koresh was receiving upper and lower
receivers to put together fully automatic AK forty sevens. That's a BATF agent.
The problem with this scenario is an AK forty seven is a solid body firearm.
You can't get an upper and lower receiver for it. Therefore, how
can you put it together make a fully automatic weapon. That's an AK forty
seven. Now, this is in the warrant. This is what they went
to the judge with to get a knock search horn, which the judge signed.
He gave him a knock search horn. I don't know what your interpretation
of a knock search warrn is, but mine, as you go up to
the door, you knock on the door, and you serve the warrant,
you go in and get your evidence. Okay. They chose to serve a
knock search horrant with what they called Operation Trojan Horse, and the cold word
for Operation Trojan Horse to go down with showtime literally it's showtime now. They
chose to serve this warrant with two cattle trailers pulling to the front of the
building, four or five ATF teams. One team was to go to the
back of the building. Another team was to go up to the side of
the building and go into what they thought was the gun room or the evidence
room. And everyone seeing the pictures of that ATF agent trying to break the
window and get into that door jump into the door and then they see all
this fire coming at the ATF agents and you see the guy go down the
ladder. Another group of ATF agents was to go to the front door and
quote unquote serve the warrant that no one ever saw in their hand and was
sealed up. When the FBI had asked for that warrant, they said,
oh, it was all shot up in the raid, so we can't produce
that warrant. Literally, that was sealed up until after April nineteenth. No
one ever saw that search warrant. Another group of ATF agents was to go
to the front of an area where we had a penned up area with five
Alaskan malamutes fun and or four pups, and their job was to suppress the
dogs. Now, there was an eight ye and I'm gonna call it exactly
what it is. There was an ATF propaganda film that was put out.
It was played on HBO. I saw it on Court TV of all things,
the other day, I mean on he have absolutely disgussed. I'm sitting
ready to go on Hardball and there is this movie is called in the Line
of Duty. And the reason I bring this up is because Phil Penngrath,
the man that wrote that was given all this false information put this movie out,
and it was made during the siege before April nineteenth. This was already
in production, was basically completed. He has since come forward and said,
since he's seen all this information that the government didn't get him when he was
making this particular film, call it that he has said that it's wrong.
He did a five page letter and came to one of our memorials and apologized
to all of the survivors profusely. And in his five page letter, he
likened himself to I hope I get his name right, Lennie Ruthenstahl, who
was the woman who did all the Hitler documentaries. And once once Lenny went
into Poland and saw what Hitler was really doing and what the Nazis were all
about, she pulled out and all of a sudden became really really quiet.
Well, this guy with much shame likens himself to her as he made a
propaganda film. And the reason I bring this whole little story up is because
in their film, the ATF agents go up to the Pendump barrier where the
dogs are with fire extinguishers, and they start spraying the dogs. Let me
tell you, they didn't have fire extinguishers that day. They shot those dogs
in cold blood time. From the trial testimony, some of the testimony indicated
that the very first shots may have been fired at the dogs in the pend
up area from the ATF agents. This is all happening simultaneously while there's three
helicopters in the back of the building that are supposed to be there for support,
coming into the back of the building shooting at the building. According to
several eyewitness testimony, I personally saw the evidence of the bullet holes that came
from had to come from the sky. They were in the ceiling with literally
sheet rock hanging down. I saw they shut up our water tanks. I
literally got on my knees. I looked through the entry and the exsit The
bullet came from right where the side right where the tank is a conclave and
you could see the bullet hole where it came in to where it came out,
and at an angle you could see it was fired between the two towers
that we had out there house fired from the air. Absolutely, that's the
one that killed Winston Blake. So my point, they chose, they chose
to serve this warrant, like like a dynamic entry style or a no knock
search warrant. I mean they're already breaking down windows while they're coming up to
serve the warrant. Now, the ATF IS claimed profusely that it was an
ambush, that they were outgunned. Well, if we were a group of
if you will, quote unquote cultists that wanted to kill the Babylonians or kill
federal authorities, and we had fully automatic weapons, and we had fifty caliber
machine guns, and we were had had forty five minutes where we knew that
they were coming, and we were allaying wait for him. I'm here to
tell you, unless we're terrible, terrible shots and all blind, not one
of those agents would have walked out that cattle trailer. It was simply never
part of the plan. There was no plan. The agents had died,
The four Agians had died, died twenty minutes into the gun battle. We
had videotape of these agents standing behind cars, standing up shooting into the second
story of the building where all the kids are like it's a set of a
Rambo movie. And yet they've been ambushed, they were out gunned. Their
story from day one never made any sense. Two pieces of evidence I'm going
to bring up really quickly. One is the front door. And at that
front door, it was very mysterious because the story from my friends on the
inside was that David Crush went to the door. I came down thirty seconds
before the shooting began. He said, now they're on their way. They're
coming now, don't anybody do anything stupid. We want to talk to them,
we want to work it out. That's we're all about here. He
was the front door and just literally all hell broke loose. I instantly was
down on my face. I spoke to several people that were at the front
door. They all told me the same story at various times that Kresh went
to the door. He held the door in his hand, he had his
arm out. He said, hold on, there's women she let's talk about
this. The door flies back in his hand from the velocity of a bullet
hitting it. He slams the door and falls back. Perry Jones's seventy year
old and our man goes down and pain from a stomach. And from that
point some of the people inside started to fire back and defend their positions.
So this door was very important because we have pictures of it. And the
two attorneys, I should say David Krush's attorney and Steve Steyder's attorney actually came
in via the tanks one day. I actually had two or three separate occasions
and saw the evidence of the helicopter's firing. They saw the front door,
and they saw that all the bullet holes are coming from the outside into the
building. Now, there were two steel doors at the front of the building.
One of them was entered in or metal doors. I don't know if
they were steeled, there were metal. One was entered into the evide and
its lists the trials at San Antonio, and the other wasn't. It was
conspicuously missing. And the defense attorney says, what about this metal door?
Where is this metal door that had all the bullet holes in it? And
all the prosecuting attorneys could say, and their defense was all that door must
have disintegrated in the fire. Its sister door is entered into evidence fully intact.
It's got a couple you know, bumps and knocks and bends from the
tanks running it over. But the other door mysteriously disintegrates in the fire,
doesn't make sense. The second little piece of information that I want y'all to
know about is the fact that the ATF were recording us. They had cameras
at their surveillance house running all the time. The FBI, when they came
in and took over the scene, the first thing they said was, we
won all the videotape of the early stages of the raid that you have.
The ATF said, we don't have any videotape at the early stages of the
raid. I'm afraid all of our cameras malfunctioned. Becomes very convenient. I
mean, you know, you can say, you can say that I'm just
making all this sub It's look, it's all a matter of record. It's
all at the trials in San Antonio. You know. I have a website.
We're making an informational site the name of the book, a place called
Waco dot com. IM I have the reports and the cs guess I want
to make the evidence available. I think that we've been lied to enough.
Yeah, for the last six and a half years, we've been lied to
consistently, and it's time to lay it on the table. I mean,
if you will, David Koresh, myself we've hat all out of our dirty
laundry exposed. Why can't the government do the same thing and say, well,
let's you know, I think the American public can take it. I
think we can take the truth, and I don't think it should be suppressed
from us. I think that's why we have a constitutional nation. I mean
I was raised very patriotically. I remember reading in the history books at Valley
Forge, you know how our forefathers, the people that died so we can
have this kind of freedoms that we have in this country. I have a
constitutional foundation. And all the people that went off to Vietnam and they didn't
even know why and died for us, and yet our government can pull this
on us. It's just a terrible thing. You know, It's a terrible
thing. And all I've ever said since they want is let's lay it all
out on the table. Well, as you can see, this is going
to create an atmosphere of mistrust, which of course it did. And over
the course of the next fifty one days, the FBI takes over, and
you know, we felt that we'd have a better time with the FBI than
we did the ATF and a lot of things happened. They set up the
speaker systems. They started used as psychops and they actually consulted Russian specialists so
they could make sure to get the best psychops. And I guess they figured
we'd be like a was it Noriegah when they went into it. To Panamian,
he was he was holding out and they started to play rock and roll
music. Well, the day they set up the speaker system, the very
first thing they played was an old Alice Cooper album. Hey, that just
delighted me, you know, and Jamie and some of the younger guys were
like excellent, started calling in for request. You know, hey, you
know the you deaf Leopard Alum came out. We're in a siege, You
think you can play that for us? They weren't too happy about that,
and that's when they started to change their tone and they had the rabbits being
slaughtered and the phone off the hook for twenty four hours, forty eight hours,
whatever it was. And you know, from that point on, things
just got worse and worse and worse. And through the course of the FBI
controlling all the media attention and basically telling you what to think, we became
the craziest bunch of religious wackos you'd ever seen on the face of the earth
that probably deserve what they got. I mean, I think thousands and thousands
of people are coming around now and they realize they have been lied to.
But I think that the general American public still holds that perception. I think
that's too bad. Some of the people at Mount Carmel. I just want
to go on record as saying we're the most brilliant people I've ever known in
my life. I mean, I'd love to be around people that are better
than me. I like to play with musicians that are better than me,
because that's how you grow, you know. I like to be around brilliant
people. And they were the most brilliant I've ever known. Wayne Martin,
the Harvard educated attorney Steve Schneider who taught classes on comparative religions. Livingston Fagan,
one of the gentlemen that's in jail right now who's been in solitary confinement
for years. Livingston Fagan, he was a pastor of his own church in
England. He came over to study and I think it's important for people to
know that third of the people that lived and died at Mount Carmel were black
or is the ACLU when we needed them, you know, I mean Rodney
King. We had riots in the streets, but no one knew this.
No one knew that it was such a diverse group of people and cultures that
existed in Mount Carmel. It's the time people knew third of the people were
black. I mean, that's you know, they can't make us out to
be the racist that they would have liked to have made us out to ben
And some of the reports came out that there was racial issues and tensions going
on, which, as it was so was not true. Now I'll give
you an example, and this is one of the things that occurred. And
this is why David was so misunderstood, and people like Mark Brow really fought
against him. There's lots of reasons. But he had a study one day
and he says, I hate black people, and I you know, I
was raised pretty liberally. I was pretty shocked, and everyone was quiet.
He goes, I hate yellow people and I hate white people because we here
are people of light. We are people that want to understand the truth,
and that's what I relate to. I want people of light around me.
No colors, you know, no nothing to limit you. And he would
always do stuff like that to provoke you and make you think, and then
there was always a wisdom behind it, and that's one of the things that
impressed upon me. Well, I'm gonna wrap it up to April nineteen so
we can start taking questions. Several things did occur, and I just want
people that I was reading a lot of material today. One of the things
that I read I was by a gentleman who's who has a very interesting website,
and he did some articles. And you have to understand that when you're
in a building and they're starting to play interviews from people that hate you and
want nothing to do with you, and think you're strange, and think you're
whacking, and think that basically you're unworthy of life, you start to realize
that there's no allies out there there. It's us against the world, not
us against the f BAT. It's just agains. The world hates us now,
well, they haven't even gotten to talk to us, and yet they
just soon have us wiped out. I mean, we were hearing this on
speaker systems, and you start to say to yourself, you know, people
want to say that krush was guilty of self fulfilling his prophecy. I think
that during the course of that fifty one days, with the number of lies
that came out, that the FBI, if there was a guidebook they could
follow what not to do in the situation, that's the guidebook they chose to
listen to. They didn't listen to the psychologists that said, don't allow Koresh's
message to come to pass, pull back, don't increase the attention, but
alleviate the tension. You know. They didn't listen to the human side of
it. There's a picture in wakel the Rules of Engagement and where there's this
infrared video. But even before that, they have scenes where they're talking to
the negotiators and we sent them out a tape. I mean, everyone during
the siege told their story on a videotape and we send it out so people
would relate and say, you know, these are people here that are religious
people. They're studying this book and they have a right to do that.
You know, they may be guilty of crimes, but they're just so demonized
that when we sent them this tape of all the people and I did a
little interview the FBI chose to suppress that from the public, and it came
out in the congressional hearings. The congressional hearings, they asked about this tape,
and the FBI literally said, we felt that if we were to release
this tape to the public, it would create much support and sympathy for the
branch. Davidians, Oh, what you mean, It might humanize us,
you know, it might take away from your demonization, you know. I
mean I give talks and people say, mister Tibbett, you've done a great
job, and it hiding your warns and your cloven hoofs. You know,
I mean, from the perception I got from the press. It's what I
expected when you came here. I just said, before I move on,
I want to there's a quote that I thought was very profound, and it's
exactly what has happened. It follows precisely what took place. And Senator Henry
Clay said this in the eighteen hundreds. He said, the devices of power
and its minions are the same in all countries and in all ages. It
marks its victim and denounces it, exciting the public hatred so it can conceal
its own abuses and encroachments. No, I read that. I committed it
to memory because it absolutely fit with what happened here. And I'm just going
to give you one more parable, if you will, before we talk about
April nineteenth. I'm a big fan of George Orwell's Animal Farm, very happy
to see that it is now a TNT movie, and I'm looking very forward
to seeing that. But if those of you that are familiar with this story
will know that the pigs, that's pretty interesting equalization. That the pigs were
the power structures of the farm, and the horses were the workers, and
everyone had their role. And every time one of the farm animals questioned the
authority of the pigs, the sheep, who weren't too bright, the sheep
will would break in to their mantra four legs good, two legs bad,
four legs good, two legs bad, and the whole farm would break into
this mancher and they would forget the question. They would forget to question the
pigs and question authority because the whole world saying four legs good, two legs
bad. And the FBI, over the course of fifty one days, every
single day consistently, federal agents good Brandsavidians, Federal Agent's good, Branston Vidian's
bad, and the entire nation joined in, you know. And it's a
shame because I feel that we have the greatest country on the face of the
earth. I feel that Americans are incredibly industrial. I mean, we've done
so much to advance technology and to advance this world that we're not smart enough
to say. I mean, there should have been someone that should stop.
That was Janet Reno's job. She said stop. You know, these people
may be strange, you know, but there's two factions here, and there's
kids involved, which brings me back to my original point in WAKEL the rules
of engagement. When they go in and they show the negotiators, you get
a picture of what they called the compound. When I called my home,
they got a picture of Mount Carma. They get a picture of David Koresh
And the whole mental attitude was that's the criminal, this is the enemy.
We need to get him. They should have had pictures of Serendity Jones and
Joe's in Isaiah and Startle and Cyrus and the kids that were in that building,
that negotiator's house, and the tactical Commander's houses should have been lined up
with the pictures of these kids, and the attitude should have been, this
is an innocent child. We need to do whatever it takes to get them
out of there. And if it means speaking Krush's language and not you know,
castizing him in the media and getting two theologians in that are willing to
work with us, like James Tabor and Phil Arnold, who poresh wanted to
get his manuscript out too, then that's what we got to do. I
think it's unfortunate that it's such a brilliant nation that the ball was dropped that
we lost sight of that and people are dead now because of it. You
know what, I'm not going to talk about April nineteenth because I want to
open up the questions. I know we're running out of time, and I
know that someone's going to ask me about it, so we'll get in some
really juicy stuff. There is that. Okay, if you could stand up
and wait for the mic. Yeah, Incidentally, this is being recorded for
c SPAN. It's going to go at national So if you have a good
question and stand up and face the camera and make sure everyone can hear you,
yes, sir, Yeah, step putter heart. My question is the
point you just made about the h the protection of the children should not have
been a two way street. I mean, shouldn't the right of the children
been or the obligation of protecting the children been considered from the Davidian standpoint as
well, in terms of well, maybe we should drop this, Maybe we
should put the children's safety ahead of our principles and go ahead and surrender for
the sake of the children. That's a very interesting question. It's a very
deep question. I know it's one that most Americans had on their minds during
the course of the fifty one Days. There's a couple of things that I
think you need to understand. Number one is, when a tank drives through
your living room, you tend not to go out to those people that are
assaulting you. When they start setting up speaker systems, you know, you
tend to incorporate as a group and say this is my family. But I
think the more important issue is that eighteen people, including men and women and
children, did exit during the fifty one Days. When negotiations were going good,
and Kresh had one negotiator he liked a lot, and he kept asking
for him. They pulled them off. He's basically a Christian guy. He
wanted to help, he really did, and Kresh had a great deal of
respect for him. They pulled him off. During the course of fifty one
days they went through I think it was nineteen different FBON negotiators. You can't
establish a report, you can't build a relationship with some of that's going on.
So when those eighteen children melt, men, women and children, several
of them children exited the building. One of the things that they did is
they left with very Some of the parents stayed in, some of them didn't.
The kids that exited left with very specific instructions. We have very specific
dietary rules. We didn't want our kids out eating candy bars and running around
like kids of the world, if you will. We believe that, you
know, according to our scriptures, there a certain way these kids should be
raised. And that's how they were raised, you know. And they were
all incredible children, very bright, They helped each other, you know,
they could sit still, you know what I mean. They didn't run around
and just wreck havoc. So the point I want to make here is that
the FBI sent us in a videotape and in the videotape, they had the
kids eat drinking soda pop, eating candy bars, watching movies that maybe the
mothers wouldn't have this. The mothers that remained inside and the fager men inside
were very upset about this videotape, and they called the FBI through the only
one phone line that we had, and they said, you guys are going
expressly against the rules that we set out when we sent our children out.
I don't want my kids to raise that way. What are you doing?
Why are you doing this? That's number one. Number two. I spoke
to a woman, her name was Julie Martinez, who became a very very
close friend of mine, and Julie had several children that died in there.
She had five kids that died and she died as well. And Julie came
to me one night during the stage in tears. I said, what is
wrong? She says, I just got off the phone with the FBI and
they made it sound like if I were to leave here. And I don't
know what words the FBI used with her, but I know her reaction.
I know she was in tears, and she said they made it sound like
if I were to leave this building, I would never see my kid again.
They made me feel so cheap and degrading and dirty for even being there
with David and the people in the midst of the siege. So you got
parents that have that believe they're never going to see their kids again, you
know. And maybe it is a selfish thing, but when it comes down
to a mother and a child, that's that's a very strong dynamic. And
that's a lot of the reasons why people stayed in. And incidentally, the
kids were placed under what they were placed in the only area we had left
to go. Most of the kids were at the back of the building,
in the concrete structure. They were placed under wet blankets. Now I've had
federal authorities say, well, they were placed under the wet blankets, you
know, to make it look like you guys weren't committing suicide. I think
that's the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard in my life. They had no
place to go. The back on April nineteenth was cut off. The media
wasn't allowed back there for some mysterious reason. According to the infrared videotape that's
on away Go the rules of engagement, and I cite to some my book,
several gunshots were going off at the back of the building the other tanks.
Now people want to ignore this, you know, people want to say
that I'm crazy and I'm some kind of conspiratorial nut for saying this. I've
seen the video. You can go rented at Blockbuster. We have two explosions
at the back of the building six minutes before the fire begins. We also
have several rounds of fully automatic weapons. According to Alard, Edward Allard I
believe his name is, he was one of the gentlemen that holds patents on
the infrared video technology says, this is absolutely fully automatic weapons fire. Nothing
in nature makes this thermal signature. And you can see these little flashes going
off two different areas. And the most amazing thing to me is as the
fires building, you see the flashes back up. You see the flashes go
from from the forefront closer to the building and start backing up as the fire
is increasing. I wish I were making it up, but I'm not.
It's there. Yes, sir, I'd have a question, and that is
that it seems to me that every action that the FBI took was directed at
the children. In other words, when they introduced CS into your Mount Carmel,
and this was discussed in the joint congressional hearings. They targeted the children.
They targeted the children with the idea that their mothers would try to save
them and rush out. They also knew that every adult had a gas mask,
but gas masks are not made for children because they don't work. Their
lungs are not strong enough. Another area of targeting the children, I think
was the so called psychological ops program where they showed the bride lights and the
loud music and the other unusual sounds. They claimed that David Koresh was brutalizing,
In fact, beating quote, beating the children is what jane A Reno
told her. She was beating babies, was eating babies. And I think
all of us can understand that if someone is susceptible to violence, then under
stress, he's likely to gauge in more violence. So these psychological operations again
would target the babies and make them be beaten more by mister Koresh. So
do you think that the FBI had any concern for the children as they claimed?
They head not according to the actions. And you know that's such a
great point I'm so glad that you brought that up during the course of the
fifty one days playing this music. I mean, you know, I'm a
pretty peaceful person, and there was one time during the siege where it was
annoy annoying me. To the point is, when you're tired, you put
in air plugs. You can sleep, you know, through just about anything.
I mean, it's amazing how the human spirit can adapt. You know,
we're very adaptable. Kids are so double. Kids are adaptable. But
it will definitely affect children more so than it would adults. One of the
things that just is absolutely shocking to me is the fact that they would use
these psychops on the kids. But more importantly is people have to understand about
the cs gas that they use, the tear gas that they chose to use
internationally, and I've done a little research on the subjects. Internationally, we
cannot use cs gas in wartime as banned. However, there's no law stating
we can't use it against American citizens. According to the now Chemical Report on
cs gas, it says that cs gas is a riot control agent that is
only to be used outdoors in an outdoor riot control situation, never to be
used indoors, especially, it says amongst women and children, especially children whose
respiratory tracts are not developed and could kill them. Failure Analysis, who was
a scientific organization. They did a report on the cs gas in the form
the several of the throughout the course of the six hours of April nineteen,
how much gas they put in there In some areas of the building they put
in cs gas that was four times the amount needed de tour a trained soldier,
let alone what that will do to a little baby boy. I don't
want to lose my next point. This cs gas is to me was one
of the most barbaric things you could ever experience. I mean, I can't
believe that they could use that. And joy Sparks, who was the individual
who was in charge of the state investigation against Koresh and the child of the
beast issues had come out to the property. Was she Sheriff's department and question
you Jack carr Will the sheriff of Waco. We had worked with law enforcement
in the past. We invited the ATFI. We didn't go looking for them.
They made it sound like we were looking for them, like we had
some plan. She said in an interview that she urged the FBI not to
do the cs gas plan to wait a mount on the seven CE. The
manuscript urged them and said, well, basically, you know, I should
I get my team ready, And they said, no, I don't worry
about it. One time. Don't worry about it. You know what were
they planning? One time during the negotiation, they were asking how many fire
extinguishers we had in there and did a report. He said, oh,
we have two fire extinguishers in the building. And the FBI negotiator said,
well, it's about time you buy some fire insurance. Yea. This might
go figure and brings me up to my next point real quick. Another interesting,
terrible tragedy that occurred occurred a few months before our attack. And then,
of course is Randy Weaver and what happened to his family in the middle
of Idaho, in the middle of the side of a mountain. And without
getting too detailed, I just want you to know the mentality of these people,
and this is what happened. This absolutely is. It came out in
the in the trials for his his case. His son Samdy Sammy, thank
you, was shot. His dog started barking. They went down a Marshall
shot the dog. Sammy shot at the marshal. He ran back and one
of the Marshalls shot and killed him. The next day, Randy Weaver put
his his dead son in the shed next to the house and was walking was
walking to the main building and FBI sniper Lon Tihoryuchi, who was one of
the only people that has been left on the loss. We have a civil
case against the government. Everyone's all the people were going after has been thrown
off except lontiori Ucci was a who was a FBI sniper that was there that
day. Lontioryuci gets Vicky Weaver in his sights. Now he starts opening up
on on on Kevin Harrison and Randy as they're running into the house. They
got the Vicky's got the door open, she's got her baby in her arms,
and Lantioryochi, from two hundred yards away with a high power scope shoots
from the face. She falls for with the baby in her arms. Now,
in the trials, during that particular case, it was asked, mister
Horriucci, didn't you know from two hundred yards away that this woman had a
baby in her in her arms? And he said no, I thought it
was a firearm, so I shot her. Now, I've talked to snipers
that I've talked to people that have been in the military. Anyone here in
the military was in the military two hundred yards away. Do you know what
you're shooting with the high power scope? That's all I want to know.
Yes, you do. This gentleman's waving his head. Yes, There's several
people from all over this country that I've spoke to have told me the same
thing. He knew what he was shooting. But here's the key. The
next day they had speaker system set up in that little debacle as well.
The next day the negotiators or someone from the FBI gun on the horn.
They said, Randy, what's VICKI going to make here for breakfast this morning?
I mean that that's unfathomable to me. To me that our federal authorities,
our servants, people that under constitution have taken it off to serve the
American public could do that to anybody. I don't care if he's a fascist
or a race it's certain rights. And this guys was never on trial.
I don't want to get too far off. I just want you to realize
that this kind of stuff happened us all the time during the course of the
fifty one days, you know, I mean the FBI agents would moon us.
You know, the women would be looking out of the out of the
windows and they'd be mooning us and sticking their middle finger up at us.
Yeah, this is the federal government, Yes, sir uh, before the
siege, before all the troubles and the siege began. Describe a typical day.
What did you do? Were you happy there? What were some of
the dues and dons, rules and regulations before all the before all the troubles
began. Great question. In my book a place called Waco. I spent
a lot of time on these issues because humanly, you go through a lot
of mixed emotions, you know, you go a lot of the things that
were I questioned a lot of the things that were going on in there,
but basically I understood one thing, you know. I mean, some of
the stuff that occurred there was a part of the plan, and I accepted
it. Generally, we would play music or build. We spent most of
our days building and beautifying the property. You know, we didn't do that
because we were planning and committing them ass suicide, you know, we had
put in the tracks. We had put it. We were building up the
house. We had built a pool for ourselves, and most of the times
were spent working and in the evenings we would study, had three square meals
and some of the women would prepare and we'd all come in knat together and
the studies usually occurred in the evening. That was your basic life. I
mean, there were periods of time where we would watch movies. Everything was
on occasion. There were times when everyone would have ice cream. There was
times and we would get burgers, you know, and everyone in the community
had had a burger. But basically people stayed there. People were were what
they believe David Koresh was inspired. I believe David krush was inspired. And
basically we spent our lives learning this truth because according to the truth, and
I do get into this very deeply in the book, according to the Truth,
this group was going to be targeted and was going to be attacked.
You know, we had prepared for that. At the same time, Korsh
did everything humanly to try to avoid the situation. He also believed there was
another plan and that that plan could go forward with music and he could reach
the world that way, so it's kind of confusing, it's dualistic, and
that was one of the hard things in writing the book. It took me
several years to even conceive of writing this book because I thought it was such
a complicated subject. I thought there was no way I could explain my experience.
I still think to this day there's aspects of the truth that I don't
even get into. I do not come I did not want to get into
David's scripture in this book because I don't believe that that's my role or that
I'm inspired to do that. So I'm trying to tell the story from my
experience without getting to the hardcore belief of why we were there. And that's
what's very difficult for me in writing this book. And you know, I
think it's something that can be researched. There are some of the Dividians that
have written down their version of the Seven Seals, and anyone that's interested can
look that up on websites. I couldn't quote the site right now, but
I didn't feel it was my role. But what I did feel was that
you know, we were out there studying, we were out there living,
and we'd bother no one for sixty years. You could go on to day,
could dub them all drop if you really wanted to. Everyone's always free
to leave. That's part of your free moral agency as a person. I
mean generally, the group did things together, and the group didn't really depart
from that. I'm considering that we were one body. According to several scriptures,
if one person does something or does something that's against the basic rules of
the community, affects the entire community, and so living under that structure.
Yes it was a rigid, a rigorous tructure, and yes it was a
very monastic lifestyle, but at the same time, it's a lifestyle that everyone
chose to live, and I could have left at any time. But consciously,
in my head, I did not feel that I would be doing the
right thing. I don't think that I could have been left David to do
my own thing in life and felt that I could look myself in the mirror.
And I've read several books on psychology and social proof and and combating mind
control, and I s all kinds of different literature that's out there, you
know. I think that for me, I just made the decisions I had
to make in life that this was I was put here for a reason,
to go through this experience for a reason. You think, do you think
you'd still be there troubles? The question was, I think I still be
there for the troubles haven't started. I can't. I don't know. I
think I might, but I also think maybe twenty years down the road,
I don't know if I could have curbed my humanity that much. You know,
I'm not a saint. You know, I'm a sinner like the rest
of us. I think there were people there that were close to saneliness.
I can't ask that question. It's something that was an experience that I took
day by day. Yes, Sir Alex Jones, a local radio talk show
host, has been really keeping this issue alive too over the long before this
latest revelations have been coming out. He's leading an effort right now to rebuild
the church on the property up there. Do you have anything to do with
that or are you planning on going back? And who owns that property?
Now, great question, I'm glad you brought that up. Someone that was
going to get into But the rebuilding of the church on the ground where all
this people died and and all these atrocities took place. I think it's a
beautiful thing. And the fact that so many Texans, due to Alex Jones
and to people that do care and that do know that they relied to and
do want to know the truth, have come forward and not only donated their
materials and money to make this project happen, but they've donated their time.
They've come out on Sundays, and they've helped to rebuild this church. We
can have a standing monument, a sanctuary out there, not only for the
people to study, but as a symbol, a symbol that the human spirit
will endure and we are adaptable. And as long as you hold onto your
purpose in life or your site, you don't lose touch with that, with
what you consider to be God and what you consider to be right for you,
that you can overcome. You know, those people didn't die in vain.
And I think it's just so amazing to me, especially in Texas here,
because I mean, how much demonization was there here in this state during
the whole thing. I mean, I came out of there and I remember
seeing it from the grand jury and I felt mentally raped. The last thing
I wanted to do was stand before eighteen people that lived in Waco that looked
at me like I was the biggest freak they ever saw in their life and
didn't believe a word I said. That was the most uncomfortable situation I've ever
I've been csgassed, and that was a little more comfortable in the CS gas
frankly, so it's incredible that people have come forward, come forward, and
every Sunday they go out there and build. It should be done the next
couple of months and if anyone that would like information on the building of the
structure, they can go to www. Dot InfoWars dot com to get that
information and also www. Rebuildthchurch dot com. And that's one word, and
I just really appreciate it everything there, everyone's done. One of the goals
I have for my website, which is a place called Waco dot com,
is to put the cs gas report and put all this information the warrants on
there so people can read it from themselves. But also I just I should
have done this years ago, and frankly, I was not proactive before.
It took me a lot of time to go through everything that I had to
go through in this and then finally come out on the point where I could
say, okay, let's take them on. You know, it's gone far
enough. My friends are in jail. I could be in jail, not
that I did anything wrong, but I could be in jail just for political
reasons. And I want someone out there fighting for me. So what I
want to do is start a petition to get the guys out of jail.
I mean, come on, people, you know we can let terrorists go
and free them for political reasons, but seven innocent people that are in jail
on the jury, you know, I'm sorry, mister establishment, mister Clinton,
mister FBI, whoever wants to criticize me on this one. The jury
said if they had seen all the evidence that the judges oppressed from them,
everyone would be released. Everyone that you had. Your reform woman wants a
retrial, you know, people like Edward alert Stone want a retrial. I
mean, it's time. These people do not deserve to be they're the wrong.
People are in jail, and you know what, if these people have
to go on suffering and suffering and suffering, then what a terrible, terrible
state of affairs we're in here in this country. Right. Here's the way
we'll take this flat. Yes, sir. Here we were listening and using
the internet on this for some time when it was very active, and over
two hundred messages were posted on the board, and some of the people were
pathetically trying to cling to the beliefs that we had that this is a fair
and honest and nation of laws. It was unbelievable. My conclusion was that
the intent from the outset was to kill everyone. There is I have heard
nothing to dissuade me from that. There's a and Los Angeles rabbi said that
a soul shall be judged not only by what it says and does, but
by what it sees and condones by silence. And though much of that has
gone. Thank you for being here. Did you have a question while you're
up? Do you thank you for your car? It's beautiful. Can you
feel that the ATF had the plan of literally putting everyone? The killing of
the certainly intended to kill the children. What you said about the docent of
CS the children could not have survived eight consecutive hours of pumping gas into a
closed building. It's not possible the children were dead from that. Well,
what I think is, and you're referring to the FBI. I think that
the atf when they staged their raid and they had the helicopters firing into the
building and the agents coming and firing, I think that their goal was to
get crushed. I mean, I think that's why they had the helicopters.
Frankly, and would they targeted the area they believed was his bedroom, you
know, they just because they didn't want that, I mean, and that's
a great point. Koresh jogged in front of their house every day for two
weeks. He was in town all the time, and the FBI when they
took over, they said, well, Kresh was isolated. He never came
out, and all of a sudden, people in Waco in the community said,
hey, I saw him at Chelsea's club two weeks ago. You know,
I saw he was in my store just the other day, and he
jogged with about five or six of the guys. I did it on a
couple of occasions when I actually felt like I wanted to try it again the
shape. I jogged in front of their house too, two weeks, right
in front of their undercover house every single day. They could have gotten not
only David Koresh, but our core group of the young men around, wouldn't
taking him right there. They never wanted to do it peacefully. That's what
blows my mind. They I think they wanted this dynamic entry. I think
that it's something that we see all these cop shows, you know, we
see this, this dynamic entry, this force. We got to go in
and get these drug dealers. That's the point I wanted to make. That's
the point I wanted to make real quick. They got the helicopters through the
only way that they could use helicopters against American citizens is under a loopola the
Dea law, where it states that if you are manufacturing drugs, all of
a sudden, you can use military equipment against the evil drug dealers and go
in and get them. They said that we had a methin fetamine lab in
there, and they went to the governor and she okayed, governor and Richards
okay the helicopters to be used because they convinced her and they convinced the authorities
that there was a methin fetamine lab. David Kresh got people off drugs.
David Crish didn't take aspirin during the seat. She wouldn't take aspron He never
did drugs. They knew that he never did drugs, but they wanted to
get the helicopters, so why not lie. Let's lie, you know,
well, not only lie to the American public. You know, hey,
you know they're sheep. We'll just lie to them. You know, they're
going to follow along with what we say. But let's lie to the authorities.
We'll lie to the judge, We'll lie to the governor, We'll lie
to whoever we can to bring about the end that we want. And that
end is very proud. It's very arrogant, it's very what's the word I'm
looking for. It's very male violent, you know, and that's not what
I thought this country was about growing up, you know, I'll be frank.
I was raised with some of the atrocities that were going on in Chile
and Nicaragua and Panama. You know, anyone sees the Panama deception knows that
there was something more to what was going on there, But the fact that
it happened here on the soil, it wasn't you know, the government going
on to other foreign lands and making this happen, or backing some rebel group
that's going in and committing mass murders or backing the Indonesians went in and killed
the East to Moors, the East Tim Maurice people. That happened years ago,
years ago, you know, there was a massacred. Not just happening
now. It happened several several years ago. It took him in like Noam
Chomsky, to bring this out to the world. It's just very it's very
frightening to me, you know. And now it's happening here in a soil.
And unfortunately, there's a very large group of Americans that will sit there
and they'll see it happen and go like, well, you know, the
people are probably bad. They're deserving what they're getting, and they don't even
understand what the forefathers built this constitution. Can I take one more? Yep,
yellous? I come okay. Did the children have many schooling other than
like the Bibles? And yeah, they had homeschooling. There was actually a
couple teachers that lived there. One was Sherry Jewel, and she was a
teacher and she taught the kids, but was more impressively than the homeschooling.
And some of them did go to school for quite some time, and then
they were taken out of school about a year before everything happened, and pretty
much was consistently homeschooling. What impressed me must about these kids that the older
kids would take care of the younger kids and would actually read books to them.
So the sharing in that community was unbelievable. The fact that, like,
you know, a thirteen year old girl would sit there and read all
these little kids, and you know, they would just share different stories and
stuff. They It's like the kids educated the other kids as well as the
adults that were in there. So yes, there was absolutely excellent education for
the kids. It said, make a plight about the dynamic entry her.
Okay, it's the wavelet Mike, and okay, okay, this is my
favorite part. I could go on all night. The dynamic entry is an
interesting thing. On the one hand, BATF wanted to make a show type
of entry, But much more importantly, I think, is who provides the
justification for everything that happened? To legal authority and the provision of illegal authority
comes from the Office of US Attorney, a branch of the Justice Department,
and it was the Assistant US Attorney William Johnson, who participated every aspect,
every aspect of the event in Waco from beginning to the prosecution, and he
is the man who demanded. He demanded of the BATF that the entry be
one such that mister Koresh could not get rid of any of the end of
the evidence. He said, I won't prosecute it unless you do an entry
that doesn't give him a chance. That if you give him a chance to
dispose the evidence, I will not prosecute. So he gave the BATF the
authority, in my opinion, to do their so called dynamic entry. He
was behind it, and then of course he was the one involved in that
affidavit. He helped prepare it with all its errors and misstatements. He gave
it to Judge Green, a former prosecutor himself, and said, here,
here it is. The judge is supposed to look at it as a neutral
party. Instead he rubber stamped it. And Johnston was involved in every aspect
of it. In my opinion, if there's one single person most responsible for
the whole incident, it's William Johnston. One point I want to make to
that, and then we do got a close is also it's pretty amazing to
see the turnaround that Johnson has done and you have to understand that when Mike
McNulty started to go into the evidence locker, which brought this whole thing back
into the press again. When he started to do that, he started to
turn a lot of people around, like Lee Hancock of the Dallas Morning News,
who broke this. Now, Lee Hancock was never ever favorable to us.
Of the Davidian, she wrote some of the most incredible pieces of that
just disgusted me while this is happening, and now she turned around. William
Johnson wrote a letter to Attorney General Jannerino and said, there's a lot you
don't know that we have found out that I think the FBI and people are
hiding from you and covering from you that you need to be aware about.
They pulled him off. He's no longer working anymore because they say that they
want to use him for a witness, so they can't have him in that
capacity. So he's been pulled off of his official duties, basically lost his
job, if you will, well, because he made this aware to Jane
Arena, I mean, it's very strange to me. So it's like the
higher ups, I mean, people that were responsible for getting koresh have done
a lot of them have done in the complete turnaround, and it's just amazing
to see people in power and people in authority, people with prestige coming forward
and doing this turnaround. I mean, it just shows how powerful that this
media structure is and that this government is in deceit and in taking you away
from what is really going on. And so on the one hand, yeah,
I think your point's valid, but I think that at this point,
I think mister Johnson's doing the right thing, and I hope that more people
do with the right thing. I mean, there's one thing I can say.
I'll end with this. My view of the Constitution. My view of
my studies of George Washington, Jefferson Lincoln, and the document and inspired document
we live by called the Constitution, is that if you take an not I
don't care if you're a traffic cop, are you the president of the United
States of America. My belief is if you raise your hand and you put
your other hand on the Bible and you'd take an oath to serve the American
public, that's what you are. You're a servant. If you're taken oath
to serve the American public, then you should be held by that oath,
and I think if you violate that oath, then I think the punishment should
be severe, more severe than an average citizen who hasn't taken any oath that
does a crime, they go to jail. Right. Well, if we
don't hold our official authorities responsible, then we're going to have problems that we've
seen, Like in Oklahoma, there are people that would in a nation of
two hundred and fifty million people, you got some fringes out there. You
got some people that don't understand what's going on, some people that can't handle
their anger and they do insane things. And if the government does not be
truthful with us, if they do not hold the people that are responsible for
lying to us and responsible for shooting us and responsible for deceiving us, those
people are not held responsible, then there will be more people that aren't so
level headed that'll do terrible, terrible acts. And the problem is is the
government in the media, we'll blame it on constitutionalists, they'll blame it on
us. Radicals like David Thibodeau is out there speaking against the government. I
love this nation, you know, I think we've got the best form of
government on the face of the earth. But I know that we can make
it better. You know, there should be reason before there's any active force.
And if there isn't, then then why am I here? Why are
we here? You know? Why don't we still deceive ourselves and think we're
living by these principles? That's all. I just want justice, you know,
I'm not out for revenge. I want justice. There are people that
are walking around that are guilty of lying, of killing, of shooting,
of gassing, and there are people that are in jail that are innocent.
And until the paradigm shifts, then we're going to have problems. And I
don't want my nation to have problems anymore. Thanks for rush Shaving, I
have him good. Hm. We stand by the fire. You're tiny,
head in mind, you're five feet off the ground. You raise some sholder,
the stars convey the lies, some fratchild in the night. In this
small man, in this small man, forever be forever be in this smament,
in this smallment, for river be for hy n face sygo is spird
song, Sada rush a song, Oh wit wo belong fadeing the what to
a memory, A picture from the wall. The moment. Fro said that
fall in this fall man, in this fall forever be forever be in this
fall man, in this moment, fore be for h be. I don't
really want to think about it. Somewhat shop open this week. I don't
want to think about it. I just want to say, in this moment,
in this moment, in this moment, in this mom Rera Beigby,
you're listening to the Fact Hunter Radio Network. Just the Facts, Mammy,