Hello, friends, and welcome to this episode of Superhero Ethics. Today,
myself and Comic book expert extraordinaire Will Freeland are here to talk to you about
Spider Man Across the Spider Verse, the second of the Miles Moralyss movies.
We're gonna try hard to find the ethical questions we want to discuss. It
might mostly be a podcast of the two of us incoherently screaming about how amazing
this movie was, and maybe the ethic question is just why don't all movies
like are this good? We'll see, we'll find some good ethical questions.
We're gonna talk about all the things about the movie. We're talking about the
comic book connections in the movie. We're gonna ask some good questions. All
that more. After commercial break that if it's from the rocks On Corporation,
turn off the podcast. Now, welcome back, missus. Matthew, your
host. If you were confused to be by that mention of the rocks On
Corporation, which I don't think appears anywhere in this movie, well the thing
is, I was so blown away by this movie. I came home,
I watched some videos about it, and then I was like I need more
Miles Morales in my life. So I downloaded the Miles Morales video game and
started playing it, and that's why rock Son is on my mind. But
it is just let's talk about it, whale, because this was one hell
of a movie. That's amazing. Did you play Did you play the The
Spider Man PS four game? I played the PS four game. We kept
thinking we wanted to play the fifth one, the new one the Miles Morales
won, and we got it on PS four, but then we're like,
ah, do you really want to play in the PS four It's probably gonna
kill our system, which which wait to play it on the PS five.
We finally got the PS five mostly played the Star Wars Jedi game, which
stopped once the Zelda game came out. But then last night I was like,
no, no, no, I'm sorry, we got we got to
download this. So yeah, um, not quite as hipo Miles Morales as
in the movie, but you know, still still a good way to get
a little Morales in your life. But yeah, So first, well,
why don't you introduce yourself a little bit because I think you are an MCU
comic guy, and if I remember Spidy as your guy, so Spider Man
is my favorite. For those who haven't heard you before, talked a little
about yourself. Hi, So Will Freeland on the Internet, primarily known as
Silver Dreamer. You can find me on Twitter or Twitch or Instagram. I
also have a TikTok that I post zero comics stuff about but it exists.
And I also have a podcast of my own called Hype is My Superpower.
It's me and my best buddy Steve. We talk about comics, um ad
nauseum. Sorry my dogs here, um, but we uh we talk about
all the comics that we read. I read all of the current six one
six universe, and Steve reads all of the comics that have mutants in them.
It's a lot of fun. Nice nice. So all right, so
you went into this movie. I know you'd enjoyed the first you enjoyed the
video game overall, What do you think? It's a movie so good?
Uh? So, the last three Spider Man movies that have come out into
the Spider Verse, into the Spider Verse, No Way Home and then across
the Spider Verse all have become my new favorite Spider Man movie. Yeah,
um, just oh it was it? So impressed? Like they they they
were able to connect it plot wise with into the Spider Verse, but then
still um create their own unique story and introduce more spiders from across the entire
web of life and destiny and and and just it was. It was so
fun um and uh there there are definitely there's a couple of like holes in
the plot that I was like, okay, but how does this technically work?
And so like I'm I'm really chomping at the bit to get beyond the
Spider Verse to figure out are they going to resolve that? Are are they
going to leave it be? What's where are they going to do? So
huge spoiler warning where you spoil everything in this movie. If you haven't seen
it yet, I don't know what you're doing in your life. If you
want to want to go to the theater, I get that. I really
hope it's gonna be available online as soon as possible. But it is so
good, definitely worth seeing. I have to tell you a couple I have
to tell you a couple of times. As we were getting towards the end
of the movie, I started to have this weird thought of is this going
to end with a to be continued kind of a thing, because the movie
had gone very long, and then like all of a sudden, it really
started when we realized he was in the wrong world and we were like,
oh, okay, wait, this is a different problem, this is a
different Miles Morales. And I was really thinking, like, are we is
this going to be a two b continued situation? I think it might be
because I didn't think like we now needed another half hour for the movie.
And then Gwen shows up outside Peter B. Parker's house and you start to
do the pan that out and I was like, are you gonna do it?
Are you gonna do it? And I just needed to see like a
couple of like pixels that were black and white, and I was like,
yes, it's Spider Man. And I was like that point of new,
like we're getting a whole new to be continued, and I was. I
was just so it made me so happy to know that they'd planned this all,
that the two and three were fitting together. Yeah. I remember,
um, it was not too long after they announced this movie. They're like,
yeah, it's going to be a two parter and I was like,
oh, well, okay, and then the name got dropped and it was
you know, across Spider Verse and didn't say part one, and I was
like, did they go back on that or like, what's what's going on
here? And they basically put pulled an Infinity War end game on us.
Yeah, and I'm here for it because like it's it's it's so much fun
because you see this in comic books a lot where they so I retreat paperbacks,
so like it's like five and six issues at once in one like book,
and they'll be this like behind the scenes plot the big bad is building
up as we watch the hero go through there like their mini plot, their
current thing. And so when you get to the end, it's it always
ends with this cliffhanger of like, hey, but the big guy is still
going And they did that, and like across the Spider Verse was one tp
of the mas Morales story and it's just and and and and I'm just so
I'm so ready, give me, give me the resolution I want to know.
I have to say, and again, for those who enjoy things in
a different way than I do, that is totally fine. I'm just talking
about my experience. I think this movie, more than anything else, has
made me feel so vindicated in my no trailers, no one from it.
I went into this knowing nothing. I knew that Quinn was going to be
in it, and I knew that they were going to play up the possibility
of the romance that was it, and so like India Spider Man and that
whole bit of like awesome representation and just awesome amazingness. H the British punk
Spider Man, Miguel, all the crazy Spider people, and the fact that
it was going to be two movies I had no idea about, and it
just it was like every five minutes there was something new that I was like,
Okay, well, this is not what the movie is, and then
they did something else knew that I just had never expected. It was totally
blown away by Yeah, it's that's the I wish I could live that life.
It's just there's so many movies that I go and watched that I end
up seeing, like in the same genre type that I end up saying trailers
for it and stuff like I went and saw Fast X like three weeks ago,
and it had a trailer for Across the Spiders. Damn it. Oh
well, I just I just kind of hang out in the back of the
theater and like walk to my seat when they start doing they're like, you
should go buy a popcorn thing just to skip the trailers entirely. So let
me just jump in with a question though, because I think one the main
things I want to talk about is like, how what if this is from
comics and how does it connect? But so are we officially spoilers? Like
I don't want to, like I've dropped spoiler walking. Okay, everything here
is spoilers forward. We can spoil whatever we want, sure, So here's
one of my biggest questions for you, again as someone who knows the comics
really well but also just knows how all these things work. There was a
little bit of this in the first movie, but especially in this it felt
very clear that they are establishing that this that the the universes that they are
going to, like the MCU universe is one of it is all part of
the same multiverse. And we saw we saw some Sony stuff. We definitely
saw like you know, Tony McGuire spat Spider Man and Anthony Garfield Spider Man.
But then especially the Donald Glover character because we saw him as a live
action umar Aaron Davis yea the Far From Home where he mentioned that he had
a nephew, and then here we saw him as a live action prowler,
which, hey, just the fact that they were able to blend live action
with animation, like thank you Mary Poppins. Yeah, Mary Poppins, Rabbit
and Roger Rabbit fly. I mean. And I remember watching the first Miles
and being like, why isn't this part of the MCU like and someways I'm
glad he was getting so big enoverploated. But here's my point. When I
got to the end and it said to be continued, and then I knew
we were going to get a like you know, Miles Morales will return in
I wondered if they were going to say some MCU product, because here's my
question. Now that we've established in the MCU that we're very much in multiverse
land, do you think we're going to get any of the Miles Morales universe
stuff happening in anything MCU puts on screen? So I'll say, I wouldn't
be surprised if we do, first of all. Second of all, I
don't want it to. I guess if we do, the way I would
do it would would be if it's in beyond and it's like a two to
three minutes scene of animated Miles in a live action mc in New York or
something. Because that's one thing that they've been really amazing about is keeping the
animation style of the character for the universe that they're from and inserting into the
mate that universe that they're telling the story part in, and it just it
looks so freaking good, and so having an animated Miles and it's it's did
you notice, like, um, Donald Glover's character was like sitting down and
he was the same size as Miles. Yeah, so like Miles is going
to be tiny if he shows up in MCU in the physical MCU. So
who knows, but I guess, yeah, I don't know what's next in
another live actrition connection. And I hadn't realized because I hadn't this is an
MCU, This is Sony verse still, but that that scene and the Chinese,
the like bodega with the little grocery store, the Chinese woman from from
Venom, Yeah, I didn't know that was from Venom. I need to
see that again, because they officially established what Earth that is um in that
scene. It was like Earth like five three three or something, like that,
and um, I need to watch it against I can so I can
ingrain that into my mind. That was another thing is they use the same
earth numbering system from the comics in this movie. No that forget about that,
because I thought that you had said at one point that they that you
were kind of annoyed that they'd established that MCU is six, one, six,
which is all the comic book universe, right, But here they said
that the MCU I think they said it was like nine. Yeah, so
what's that about. That's the that's the Earth that got established ten years ago.
Um, it got labeled the MCU universe got labeled as one nine nine.
Um. Just I don't know why because it's not like the MCU started
in nineteen ninety nine or anything like that. But like today, it's one
of the it's one of the only earth that has six numbers. Usually they'll
do two, three or four digits because there's plenty of numbers to go off
of from that. Um. But yeah, the idea that b MCU would
be another six, one six is that was actual red herring? Is that
just not? That's what that's what bugged so well? That's uh, this
is where I This is where I appreciate DC and how they do their Earth
numberings, because each Earth has their own perspective, and from their perspectives,
they re number everything um and so like there's a comment I forget which DC
and made movie it is, but like they're like, oh, so you
guys are Earth three. Huh oh too's see, you guys are Earth
eight. That's kind of cool, and like just yea, just that different
perspective. But then in the comics, in them, in Marvel Comics,
it's just this omni universal, omniversal numbering system that everyone just agrees on.
Everyone's like, oh, yeah, I'm from Earth six one six, and
across the board, we all know that's the main comic universe. Oh I'm
from Earth sixteen ten. Everyone knows that's from the Ultimate Universe. And so
like it's just this weird omniversal understanding. And so when the MCU came in
and it's just like, yeah, we consider you guys are at six one
six. And they've said it twice now. One was a made up story
from quintin Back and then another one was from Christine in Earth eight three eight,
and they're both just like, yeah, you guys are six one six
that it's a fun it can be looked at as a fun Easter egg from
like a fan's perspective. But at the same time, if you are trying
to put this into one Giant Spider verse, like what what Spider verse is
doing, what Miles Miles is doing, then you can't do things like that,
right, Like I don't know, it's it's a it's a strict non
strict rule, just okay. So there we have a conflict between what people
in the MCU will be saying and people in the sony but which is fine
again because it might beat like it, which I like you're saying of that,
Yeah, like everyone everyone's gonna be using the same numbering system, so
like, yeah, you know who the heck knows. So let's talk about
Well, actually I want to want to go more on the animation and what
you said, because I am really blown away with how much they use the
animation to tell the stories and not as you said, it's the whole artistic
style, like and he like, let me you an example. I'm wondering
if this is from the comic books. It's subtle, so it takes a
little while to notice. So that really becomes apparent in the scene with her
father, but with Gwen, the color scheme keeps changing based on the emotional
character and it looks like like her hair changes color until you realize that it's
no, it's it's like different light is being cast on her, and so
like everything is like dark purples and lose when she's super said, and then
when she hugs her father and he says like force for her. Um,
you know, it becomes all sort of super light and pasteli and amazing.
Is that something from the Spider Gwen? Well, actually, I don't know
if this term Spider Gwen is appropriate, but is that is that from this?
It was? It was originally the name of her title, even though
in University Spider Woman, Um excuse me, she has since changed her name
to Ghost Spider So the latest title she was in was called Ghostpider whatever.
But yeah, Earth sixty five is much more um artsy artistic in how they
portray Um. The background, like Gwen herself is always like all the characters
are always very much there style. They don't get like, they don't get
pesteled over or anything like that in the comic um but like they use lights
a lot um and and like you know, like I just think of in
Earth sixty five, the universe that Gwinn is from, Uh, Matt Murdock
is the head of the hand, and um, there's all kinds of scenes
where he's on a rooftop and there's like a giant Neon red light shining down
on like on the situation. So like so he's just like pasted in red.
But like as far as showing emotion and all that kind of stuff,
it doesn't usually take over the character like that. Um, and they're they're
using they're saying there's something in the environment to justify the lighting right right right,
whereas this is just portraying the scene and it's it's gorgeous and it it
really kind of separates her universe from Miles because like when the two of them
are standing together, they kind of look similar as far as animation style is
concerned. And so when you go to sixty or sixty five in Gwen's universe
and having that emotional pastel that goes over everything, it really differentiates between sixty
five and sixteen ten where the Assembly smiles from, which is Ultimate universe.
But yeah, so that's slightly new but similar similar about the different Yeah,
I and so let's talk about Gwen herself, because I want to. I'm
kind of go through some of the characters in worlds that we encounter here.
The first one is very much a Miles Morales movie, and this one is
still you know, Miles Morales is I think probably the biggest character, but
be curious in his actual screen time because certainly, like at this point,
it feels like Gwen and Miles are almost co protagonists at least, and certainly,
you know, you get what ten minute fifteen minute cold open that is
just her in her world. How did you feel about sort of how her
story was played out and kind of the way they focused on her so much?
Um, it was it was a little surprising, but it was.
UM. I did kind of like it because it took like the right amount
of time. I think if they glossed over it like they did in the
like introduction like cuts that they did in into, it'd be more of the
same. And then it would also, um, I think it would jump
into the story too quick because the way they have it like this, it's
kind of just like a flashback montage but set up for being able to walk
into this movie without having seen into the Spider Verse. So you get an
idea of the storytelling that they're going to do, and you get that,
you get into that mindset with a with a origin story flashback. It kind
of reminds me of like Up Have the Like the first like ten minutes is
all backstory to get you involved with this character and what Carl and um it
kind of cements your wanting to root for Carl and so here you want to
root for Gwen. And then that plays into how the feeling, the feeling
of betrayal that Gwynn and Miles have when Gwen's like, I didn't know how
to tell you and You're just like, ah no, it's just so many
things. They did it so well because I think like there were a couple
of times and primarily between those two, but also a good deal between Myles
and his mother where I was watching two people have a conflict and I might
have had my own personal opinion on which one was right, but also knowing
where both of them were coming from, I was super sympathetic to both of
them and like I was like, oh, Miles, it's so hurts.
But I mean, even before that that big reveal, maybe has crossed the
line, but just where a lot of like she's trying to protect him,
she doesn't want to bring him to this universe all this stuff. Like I
know exactly where she's coming from too, I know how afraid she is about
going back home where her dad wants to arrest her. And like the way
they set that up so that I was sympathetic for both of them was just
so powerfully done. Absolutely. I also really liked that and here, hey,
look we're getting a kind of like one of the ethical things we're like
talking about, but really all of this is ethical in its own weird way,
you know, mostly just because like this movie should win every OSCAR.
That's the ethical combination without hitting you over the head with it, just because
it was like we're going everywhere this movie felt. It was like, look,
we are going to take the diversity representation idea and run with it so
hard. And like, so we got some of Gwen's backstory. We've not
had many women characters in in comic books, for sure, especially not in
Marvel connected stuff. We went to Spider Man India World, which I want
to talk about for a while because that was just incredible and a whole other
thing it's barely been represented. And then there were just the little things like
having I got to see a Spider character in a new wheelchair Sun Spider,
no idea what was that person's name, Sun Spider. Last year, I
had no idea how hard that was. Something like that would hit me,
and it hit me so hard and it just you know. And then there
were little things like Miles had a Black Lives Matter button that he was wearing.
Gwen had a kind of blinking you miss it, but there's a lot
of like uh, pink white blue colors in her stuff, and she had
a trans Lives Matter flag, which has got a whole people running off in
different questions. Directions. Um, I just thought the way that they were
like, we're not gonna hit you over the head with it. We're not
gonna do like a stop the movie so we can make a point, but
we're really gonna broaden the representation in a way that I mean, the Miles
Morales was always about that obviously, like the Black Spider Man, the Puerto
Rican Spider Man. How do you feel about your getting to see like so
many different ideas of you know, who Spider Man can be breaking out of
its older white guys. Honestly really excited because it's representation is everywhere in comics,
but it's so rarely jumps from the page onto the big screen, and
even even in video games it doesn't happen very often. Um, like you
started Miles Morales, So what if you're going to think, I was gonna
point out, but you go ahead, Well, there's like there's the there's
the character who's death and they signed Miles knows asl and so they signed together
and she shows up as like a side character here and there. But then
also, like in the terrible Marvel's Avengers game story is amazing, it's just
the execution was terrible. But there's there are characters in wheelchairs, um that
you can like walk around talk to in the opening like training mission, and
like that shouldn't be such a novel thing to see because I see it all
the time in the comics, But the fact that there's like these one or
two offs in video games is a step in the right direction. And then
you have the Spider Verse, where it's so easy to just have any unrepresented
community and give them a Spider power and throw them into like the fact that
Spider Man India, Spiderpunk, Sun Spider even even like the t Rex Spider
Man and Peter Parked Car Who's the Spider Buggy, Like just like it steps
into a little bit of audacity, but at the same time, like just
showing again this message of anyone can be a hero and like to have them
take the time to dedicate a speaking line and a cam like an actual cameo
spotlight appearance in these movies is such a big deal and it's so great to
finally see that it doesn't have to be a statement like hey, we made
the main character black, or you know, just like all these things,
it doesn't have to be these one off changes that will anger some people because
all you know, my character is supposed to be white. But like in
the Spider Verse, everyone is everything. Let it be. There's a couple
of things I want to say that first, in terms of the video game,
what I thought we were going to say. What I want to point
out is that and it's a small thing, but it's very significant. And
really like listening to a lot of Latino fans of the Latino Latino fans of
the first movie really helped me see this that most of the time when Spanish
occurs on screen. Any foreign language appears on screen, we see subtitles of
the translation, and in the Spider Verse movies Rio his mom and when even
when he speaks Spanish back to her, it's never translated. Yeah, because
it's much more of a like we're not making this to say like, look,
this is made for non Spanish. It's like, no, this is
just the universe. If you know what they're saying, great if you don't.
And then I started playing Miles Morales and I realized they were translating the
Spanish and it's a small thing, which one more way in which the movie
was pushing a little further forward. The second thing that occurred to me as
you were saying that was how like when you think about representation, a lot
of the time things will go to is people will be like, oh,
well, if that's true, if you want like any kind of like superhero,
why can't the superhero just be a car or be a dinosaur. And
the fact that they did that but not in a way that made it seem
like, Okay, we'll see this. This is showing that like Spider India
and Spider Nueva York is just a big joke. It was like, no,
no, it works to be a dinosaur, it works to be a
car, it works to be a lego, And that's all funny. But
then when you go to India like Mummetin, I think is the mumbaiment had
Yeah, which also to me feels very much like the same naming conventions of
San Franco Kio. So I hope there's a big Hero six reference somewhere in
all of this. But I was just so amazed by how they did that
with so much like awareness that like they made it funny. But then like
all the stuff about India really felt to me like and I've searched for that
in TikTok this morning and saw people being like, yeah, this feels like
you know what Miss Marvel felt like for our other South Asian you know friends,
Like this really feels an amazing representation in everything from just the character the
look, to like the jokes about Chai and and like oh here's the museum
where the British to all of our stuff like oh my god, that drop.
I was just like yo, no, even the thing about like oh
wait, Peter, Peter B. Parker, like you come to our NBA
land to come, you know, find enlightenment, don't you. I think
the line was it was so much laughter it was hard to hear, But
I think the line was don't you dare live, Live, Live, pray
love us? You know? Yeah, that though, And I'm curious if
you saw this the same way, because again, maybe it's just referencing common
things I didn't understand, but I know that when you get those things.
And we're seeing this even right now with all of the Ariel you know,
the incredible black actress playing Ariel in the new live action Little Mermaid, but
also like when Miles Morales came out, going all the way back to when
Donald Glover was first suggested as uh, like did you know the whole story
about Donald Glover and Miles Morale us, Oh, that he wanted to play
he wanted to play Spider Man, and a whole bunch of people like,
oh, you can't do that. And a writer who was like following this
was like, why can't there be a black Spider Man? And so he
started writing Miles Morales. So having Donald Glover in this is so good to
begin with. But also like, so you've got all these comments that are
always about like no, you can't do that. It breaks cannon. You're
changing cannon and sort of have the whole plot be the Giles basically being told
you are wrong, that you being a spider Man is breaking cannon. And
that's the thing. I was like, once again, this should be so
this should feel like like I liked the the New Ghostbusters movie quite a lot,
but and I liked that they kind of leaned into the critique that people
had about women Ghostbusters, but it felt like it was really like, you
know, lamp shaded hitting you over the head with it. Here it felt
much more subtle. Yeah, but still it Maybe this was just me,
but I wondering if you are the same. I walked away from this being
like they very intentionally said that the whole concept of like representation or a black
spider Man or all this is like you shouldn't have it. It breaks cannon.
And they very intentionally We're like, okay, then, well actually we're
gonna make Kennon the literal enemy in this. Um damn No, I didn't.
So I didn't have that perspective. Um as far as far as like
a commentary on on cannon, um, for me, it's it. It
felt like they're diving into the untold like reality of Spider Man and the fact
that like by being Spider Man, well in reference to like Peter Parker in
the main universe, by being Spider Man, Peter Parker always loses, and
the idea that being a Spider means losing more than you want to. And
when you have a new hero like Miles who's only been doing it for about
a year and a half now, he hasn't had well, he's had he
had his quote unquote Uncle Ben moment with Uncle Aaron dying, but he hasn't
had the same amount of loss and character growth for lack of a more sensitive
phrase as the other Spiders. And it becomes a a an opportunity to look
at the strength of character of each Spider Man by how they deal with the
hardships that they've been given. And that has always been a like staple of
looking at of the strength of character that Peter Parker has in how he has
taken his loss and still done the right thing. So and then you get
this, you know, bright eyed, bushy tailed, brand new Spider of
just like dude, I can save everyone? Are you kidding me? I'm
really scared of what he's going to have to learn in beyond the Spider verse.
Especially, I realized they did it a second time because also a bright
eyed, bushy tail, this is so easy, was Spider Man India right?
Because he hadn't had his awful ben he is Gwen's father character died yet.
And I'm very curious where they're going to go with the next one,
because yeah, I mean, I to me, the next one where the
answer if if I'm right about the whole idea of thing, that cannon is
the enemy here, because you're you're right, it may well be that like
that the point is that, no, you have to have some kind of
a loss. But to me, like I remember conversations we've had with Paul,
one of the reasons why Paul was kind of getting a little sick of
a lot of the MC movies was that there was always this kind of cynicism
of like, you can't save both, you have to you're going to lose
someone, you have to walk away from the girl, whatever it is.
And so I kind of love it if we did break that about what if
you don't have to have even more tragedy in your life? What if you
can have a healthy romantic relationship and still be a Spider person. But you're
right, it's set up in a way that I like, Miguel is clearly
not a good character. Like there's you know, well there if you want
to really dive into it, Peter B. Parker's whole plot line of him
being like, Listen, I thought I was screwed, and by meeting you,
I was inspired to try and now I have. Now I have made
a Parker and I've patched things up with Mary Jane. She supports me.
She understands what being a Spider is, and so, um, maybe maybe
Miles is that catalyst to the rest of the Spiders and he becomes the new
you know Miguel of leading the rest of the Spiders. Of just like that
could be so good you can actually win. Yeah, um, that would
be very interesting and I would love to see that. Absolutely, that would
be great. That would be great. I did love may Day so much,
like see Adorable. There's so much you did in this movie that I
just don't think would be possible in live action exactly. So I just had
that conversation of just like, we don't need I don't part there's a part
of me that doesn't want live action Spider Man movies, Like, yeah,
no, I think so, I think that's fair. I think I think
I like the like I wouldn't mind if they did a bit of the Roger
Rabbit with something like you know, Donald Glover gets to be in this in
some way, but like, yeah, continue it with but it's like the
Roger Rabbits side, where it's we're all in Tuneville, you know. Yeah,
And like I think, now that they've shown they have that technology,
I'm guessing we'll go and spend the least a little time and a live action
universe. That would be wild. I'm very down for that. It'd be
fun to see. It'd be fun to see. And yeah, and I
certainly wouldn't mind if in some in some uh you know, MCU project of
some kind a little bit of this popped up. You know, I don't
want it to be like a full like I don't want to have to go
back into the MCU to finish the Spider Verse. I kind of love.
I think right now the Spider Verse is the best Marvel thing out there,
and I'm kind of glad it's not like I still am enjoying a lot of
the mcu. I thought Guardians was fantastic. I started Quantum Mania and after
four minutes turned it off because I was so bored um. So like I'm
I'm aviously mixed, and many people are much more fans of it, and
so that's awesome. But I saw your status on it. You were you
were not happy with it. Didn't get I didn't. I didn't want to
set you up for failure. But it's it's not it's not a mind blowing
movie at all. But this, like, I mean, I still have
my visual acuity problems. I still don't know if I can actually get through
it, but I this makes me want to read a comic book because it's
just that's exciting, like just like like the blue exclamation points going across the
screen as he's like screaming, and yeah, so let's focus on that.
Because you're the expert and I love having on for this. Talk to me
about what parts of this are from actual comic books. Oh Man, First
of all, pre because on some hand, like if you have a movie
called into the Spider Verse and then you do a comic book, that to
me, and then things from that comic book appear on screen, that feels
a little like, Okay, we're already in the interconnected universe, and I
want to get to those things. But what are things from pre like what
was in the comics before this Spider Verse into the Spider Verse stuff started that
we're seeing on screen here. Okay, so oh this is this is tough
because the characters that show up in this book called Edge of Spider Verse.
Um, this book came out last year, and so were they working with
the studio to show some new spiders who are going to show up in Across
Spider Verse. I don't know, So I can't. I can't just flat
out say that like Peter Parked, car Sun Spider, Uh, Spider,
t rex Um and the others that were introduced in Edge of Spider Verse came
out before Across Spider Verse. They were publicated first. But who knows anyway,
So um um published after the first movie? Yes, yes, so
here's so here's one. So Spider Verse first published in twenty fourteen, way
before into the Spider Okay, so, which I'm actually going to read on
um on my twitch to night, but that's people are gonna miss it anyway.
Um So Penny Parker uh in the comics she has this like uh neon
Genesis Evangelion looking uh uh Spider um, and it was very different from what
we got into the Spider Verse. And then in across the Spider Verse in
her cameo, she has that same like lanky, upgraded version of s It's
sp slash slash d R. It's just Spooter um. But um, so
she's so yeah, it's mecha Spider. And so she has the comic book
design now, which was which was fun to see. Um the numbering of
all the earths, Um, those are accurate to the comics um now,
not necessarily obviously, but like these are definitely different stories of these earths,
right, Um, like the death of Chris Pines Peter Parker in in Miles
Miles Earth is very different, um, and the age is very different.
And then um, Earth sixty five is is Gwen Earth? I think it's
five H one O one is um uh Puvatier proba cars uh Spider Man India?
Um, those are India that existed before. Yes, he was introduced
back in the twenty fourteen Spider Verse. And now was that pub was that
like just published in India or is that just part of the English language like
no part main main story UM introduced in in in American comics. UM So
Spider Man India was a mini series standalone alternate universe Spider Man that they did,
UM just kind of randomly, and then they and then when they did
Spider Verse, they brought him in same as like this, there's there's like
six Marvel sixteen oh two, which you know Marvel Universe reimagined in the early
early sixteen hundreds. Nick Fury is like the head of security for the Queen.
UM. Oh, so is that what Renaissance era like Leonardo da Vinci
Vulture was from. So that one I think I think he was from.
Uh this steampunk version of UM of Marvel where Lady Spider is um the Spider
of that universe and UM Vulture and Electro has a giant like a battery pack
on his back. UM and uh, that universe is super like steampowered,
um your typical steampunk idea, gears everywhere and all that kind of stuff.
But that was so much fun to see. And then you also see Lady
Spider in one of the like pans of their main like hub area. She's
walking around talking to one of the spiders. UM. UM Spectacular Spider Man,
the animated guy. Um he's you know, he's from the TV show,
not necessarily comics, but um, I also just have to have to
throw out there as we're talking about oversonal things that happened. Uh, Tom
Holland's uncle Ben moment is yes there and like his actual uncle Ben um,
but it's it's Tom Holland from the back, but it's like skinny lanky boy.
And there's three that you know, you clearly see Ben Toby McGuire and
you clearly see Andrew Garfield. And there's a third live action one on the
right side, um on the web connected to the Spectacular Spider Man Uncle Ben
moment. And you're just like, because that's the first time we've seen that.
And did you see that in his um room, in his dorm room
at Brooklyn Visions, which he's playing Spider Man. He's playing the Spider Man
game and then and then he shows up and then he shows up Insomniac Spider
Man is also okay. Oh, so one difference is uh, Earth zero
zero zero is called loom World, and that's where the Web of Life and
Destiny was created, and that is connected to all the rest of the Earth's
that's typically where the Spiders use their base of operations. This is not the
same this because this was out running out of um, Miguel's Earth, right,
Um yeah, we have a York in twenty ninety nine, twenty nine
nine, UM, and so that was slightly different. One cool thing is
in the when when Miles and Gwen go to meet Miguel for the first time.
In the background, UM, there's like a white and red suit being
like made in the middle of being designed. That is Miguel O'Hara's second Spider
suit that he has for like two storylines, and he decides he has one
anymore, and so he goes back to the blue. But like that's just
a little like fun little homage too. So he's also a character and a
lot of these things. Oh yeah, dude, Miguel O Harris everywhere.
UM. Spiderpunk Hobie Brown was introduced in twenty fourteen, UM in a world
that's just like, um, fight the Machine kind of a thing, and
he's like the leader of the Assistance, and like they took his personality from
the comics and just ranted up to twenty in the mos with his artistic style
because I don't know the right terms. I might be wrong with it.
I think these are the right terms. It felt like he was too animation
with everything else being three D animation. And it's yeah, that kind of
true to his his his an the way there's drawn in the comics, um,
not really so in the in the comics, especially in the first version
of the comics. The first like Spider Verse, Um, there's not like
the artistic style of that universe. They don't really do that. Um.
And with the exception of like this Earth is barren and so it's going to
be run down, or this Earth is radioactive and so everything's dead, but
like it's all the same artist doing everything, so they don't have these like
extreme uh visuals like all that. And Spiderpunk. Actually, Spiderpunk just got
his own title. UM, let me see, I have it obviously here
it is so spider Punk Battle of the Band, and yeah, his his
art style is sort of like that, but no one here. You're showing
this up for us on radio. I'm showing you, sir, we're on
camera together. But uh yeah, so his universe has a style now,
But when he was cameoing in other Spider Verse titles, UM, they don't.
They do not do that. Like Spider Man Noir is um personally black
and white, but that's because he's wearing a black trench coat in like a
leather you know, black leaves and stuff. But he's not astounded by color
and existence of it. But that's you know, I have no problem.
I have no problem with him taking that, just running with it, you
know. Oh yeah, Oh it's so cool. One of my favorite lines
from the first movie is Peter Porker asking someone, like, I almost talk
in this universe? Is going to be right? Yeah? It's yeah,
so much fun. Another the comic question. I kind of brought this up
earlier, but I'm curious that this is actually a thing. So Spider Man
India exists in Mumbaten, which is I say it's a comic. It's like
it's an alternate universe in which there's this city that's kind of a combination of
Mumbai and Manhattan. Yeah. Big Hero six occurs in something similar San frans
Sokio, a combination of San Francisco and Tokyo. Is there any connection between
those two stories and comics in terms of them both being part of the same
like alternate universe series or is that just like a convention that they go to
every now and then and the two aren't related except that they're both in comics.
That's just kind of their thing. It's I can I don't know what
earth Big Hero six takes place, and because it is a Marvel property,
as you're alluding to, but it is I I strongly do not believe that
they are the same Earth as as Earth five O one on one right.
Um, uh, I could look it up. Well, I'm not.
I don't think of the same Earth. I just wonder if there was like
like a particular run of comics where they imagined a lot of Earth cities being
totally different. Oh so, I mean tips usually because like, um,
basically because for some reason, ninety eight percent of the Heroes and Marvel are
from New York and so if you're going to tell an alternate universe, uh,
you're gonna base it in something New York esque. Uh. And so
that's sort San Francisco as the Bigger Sixes. But yeah, yeah, but
then so it looks like that's new because Big Hero six in the Marvel comics
is actually just uh it's in six one six, So um, there isn't
a San Francilcio. Interesting. Interesting, So there one are the things about
the movie you want to bring up? Um oh man, So okay,
I'm really curious. Um one of the to go from the comics to jump
into where I'm about to say about the movie. In the comics Ghost Spider,
Spider Gwyn, Spider Woman, She's the only hero in that universe.
Like this, her universe, Earth sixty five doesn't have superheroes. And I'm
curious if Earth forty two, this Earth without a Spider I'm curious if that's
an Earth that doesn't have heroes, because, like into the Spider Verse and
across the universe and across the Spider Verse, we've only seen it from the
perspective of Spiders and their rogues gallery. There's never there has yet to be
a cameo of a non Spider Man car, which I don't expect there to
be, honestly, but I'm the factor he is. Gohea, I'm sorry,
I'm just I'm curious if a world without Spider Man is going to be
considered a world without heroes. That's and that that alone might be a good
reason why there's not Well, actually, hold on back up a second.
Because I was going to say that for the most part, you're right,
and that might be a good reason why to keep all of these things out
of the MCU type things. But they did mention Doctor Strange. They're not
Strange, so so yeah, maybe if there's this idea like six one six,
because certainly all the Spider people seem to act like, yeah, there's
no Captain America, there's no Avengers, there's no X Men, it's just
Spider people as the only superheroes out there. MCU seems to be the only
Spider who has an Avengers and Doctor Strange so far, right, because Toby
and Andrew are like, what are the Avengers? Yeah, no, exactly,
So yeah, I wonder if that's the idea, is that six one
six? Is that completely weird world? Again, this breaks with one division
established or a Doctor Strange and the multiverse established, But again it's because we're
two different studios and this is fine. But yeah, certainly all of these
Spiders seem to come from a perspective of this is the only kind of superhero
that's out there, So that'd be an interesting like world bending um talking about
size and perspective. So I got a little like man, but also kind
of excited when they showed the multiverse right the like the like the light blue
strand roots branch representation of the multiverse that we have seen in like low key
and all these other things. And so he's just like, this is reality
or whatever. And then he goes and this is the web of life and
destiny and it's like eighty five times that size, and he goes around all
of the multiverse and just like, oh, yes, spiders are cool.
So let me ask you this because and this maybe can be our last kind
of big question. But here's the ethical question. If we take for granted
what Miguel certainly seems to understand, and thus Gwinn certainly seems to understand while
she's still working with him. Oh, actually no, let me back up
a second. Okay, so I've got a big ethical question. But first
one more comic book question. Because we've talked about Hobie, We've talked about
Miguel, We've talked about India Spider Man. What about Motorcycle Spider Woman.
Is she a thing? Oh no, get her name? So, yeah,
Jessica Drew. So her costume design and her being pregnant are both pulled
from a Spider Spider Woman solo title from a few years ago. In six
one six okay uh and six one six, Jessica Drew is a white woman
brunette um and she actually gets a donor for her pregnancy UM and so there's
like two volumes about ten issues where she is pregnant and trying to um you
what she can to not get involved in superhero fights, but always gets pulled
into superhero fights. But so but changing her into a black woman, an
African American woman riding a motorcycle that's new and that's totally fine. Yeah,
no, it was awesome. I totally loved it. I loved her character.
Oh, but then also giving her the organic webbing from her fingertips that
has been done Silk has that in six one six, Silk is a second
person to be bitten by the same spider that bit Peter Parker. It's a
whole comic books anyway, but she's the only other Spider I've seen in recent
memory that shoots the webs from her fingertips as opposed to like wrist ye.
I will say, the one of the things that I really want to see
at some point in these movies and I wonder if it's happened in the books
yet, because again, as you said, they're pushing representations so hard.
If some kind of conversation where you know, Miles is meeting people and I
was like, oh, yeah, this is a spider man, this is
a spider woman, this spider woman, this is a spider man, and
there's one person who's like, I'm just a spider person. Spider reputation,
you know, that would be really cool. Now, we haven't had that
yet. We've had spiders Man, who is thousands of spiders and high consciousness,
but we have not had a spider person. Yeah, all right,
so here here, here, let's an ethical podcast. Let's hit us with
a real ethical question. Sure, is Miguel right if if Miles going back
will cause the entire breakdown of his world and possibly of all of reality,
is Miguel wrong to just physically stop him? If then no, But I
do not believe he's right, don't I don't believe that his assumption is correct,
not necessarily right in the from an ethical perspective, But I don't think
that his because he's upset that Miles took the place of Crispine. Peter Parker
because he became a Spider Man, and so the world corrected itself in having
only one Spider per universe. So the questions, but Octavia and what is
his first name? Jonathan owned who who turns into spot? They pulled a
Spider from a different universe and brought it over here, which removed the cannon
event for Earth forty two, but created a new cannon event for sixteen ten.
What I don't understand, and what Miguel should be thinking about, is
that Earth forty two still exists a year and a half later. Why is
Earth forty two still around if it lost its spider cannon event? As we've
already established that immediately after they saved Um Peter Pavteers Uncle the giant hole,
the universal whole dimensional holds started showing up and started falling apart, Earth forty
two is still around. So we have an Earth without a Spider that that
lost its spider it's cannon event. Unless forty two was always supposed to give
its spider to sixteen ten, why is that universe still around? So,
and along those lines, I don't understand why Miguel hanging out in the universe
where that universe's Miguel passed away. I don't understand why that universe had to
fall apart if he broke his own cannon. But he didn't die. So
there's there's Those are some of the questions that I have going into the next
one. But if if the prep, if Miguel's perspective is correct, then
I believe that he is acting correctly. But I do not think that his
perspective is right. And here's the thing. I just wish the character,
some of the one of the characters had pointed that out in some way because
and here's where I know I'm going to go against the what always happens in
Marvel movies, because, among other things, this is my I think Nick
Fury at the end of Avengers is wrong. Often what will happen is someone
will say, from all of the evidence, you cannot do both of these
things. And so we have to understand that letting one person die or the
small group die, in order to save this much larger group in this die
or dire circumstance is the right choice. And um like again, that can
become you to Terryanism, and that can become we're going to actively kill this
group to say this much larger group. You got to be super careful of
it. I'm not saying it's always oppressive, but I'm open to the idea
that that is sometimes the thing. And what always comes up in it not
always. What often comes up in these movies is our hero saying I know
you think I can't do it, and I'll be honest, I don't have
any idea how I'm going to do it, but I have hope that I
can do it, and so you should trust me, and your trust in
my hope should allow you to put at risk every longest number of people.
Yeah, and like if you have very little I haven't watched Avengers in a
long time, and so I'm just using that as a general example. If
you have no evidence to believe that anything except nuking New York will prevent the
destruction of the entire world, as horrible as it is, I think I
lean towards nuking New York as a New Yorker who loves that city more than
anything in the world, Like stan Leevey stan Lee and Jack Kirby, if
I wrote if I lived in New York City all my life, of course
I would write that everything happens in New York, because, as I said
in Keeping the Faith, I think anyone who isn't living in New York some
inst kidding, but and here even more so. And again maybe that's what
they're showing us, is that, like, like, I appreciate it that
they never full on made Miguel villainous. They didn't make him like mohaha evil.
I think what they were showing is kind of like him and him and
Gwen from Miguel's perspective, if we were in Miguel's shoes, we probably make
the choice he does. If we're in Miles's shoes, we probably make the
choice he does. And I to me, that's really good storytelling, is
that they're kind of in that ethical like, yeah, we're not saying what
I think the audience is supposed to probably sympathize with Miles, and we're rooting
for Miles, but it's not so far we don't obviously know that Miguel is
wrong. So actually, maybe as I said that, maybe it's better that
we don't have it pointed out. I think I just talked to myself out
of my original opinion there No, but I mean, just like putting yourself
in Gwen's shoes in in Moonbatten of just like, hey, Gwen, by
the way, a cannon events about to happen, and she's like, okay,
like I accept this impending loss of a fellow Spider's family member, this
is this is the way, Yeah, and her trying to stop Myles.
So it's just like if she knows it's going to happen, like you'd think
as a hero, you're going to try to stop that, right, And
so yeah, cannon events are interesting. I sort of think got the sense
that she didn't have the full picture of it until towards the end, because
there else she probably would have occurred to her that her cop father was also
slated for death. She I got the impression she accepted that, kay,
like that was part of bringing her in of just like all Captain family members,
especially all Captain Stacy's, are going to die earth In Earth sixty five,
Captain Stacy is still alive in the comics, He's still around. But
yeah, I mean it's kind of one of those is I think fatalist Gwen
Stacy has accepted that that's going to be her reality. And I think part
of it is because she looks up to Jessica drew so much, and Jessica
told her that it has to be like this. Yeah, that makes sense.
All right. My last question for you, and this is going to
tie into a big thing you do in another part of your life that you
can tell people about. But we'll start with a question. As someone who
is a twitch stream specifically about Legos, how did he feel about going to
Lego Spider Verse. That was so cool? That was so unexpected, and
that's I mean, so much of this movie is unexpected, but that was
so much fun. And the fact that he's already in the in the team
and he's got his little watch, and the like my one like oh man,
was that they didn't use the Daily Bugle Lego set. That would have
been a perfect like placement. But I think it's because two things. One,
the Lego set, it was probably too small for what they wanted to
do, like as far as like footprint. But then also, um,
I don't think the Daily Bugle Lego set has a bathroom for Pete to go
and hide in and reach out to Miguel. But I bet they they probably
had that conversation. There's no way that that these story writers who think about
as much as they have did not consider the Daily Bugle Lego set, but
that was that was so much fun. I love that they did that and
that they kept spots original animation. Um, and and they do that across
the entire freaking movie. But like even just something as as for seconds in
a Lego stop motion universe, they still had animated spot being just like,
uh, this isn't right. I'll be uh okay, I'll see you guys
later by Yeah, so what fun it was? Yeah? Just like I
mean, we didn't even talk about like the Black Girl Avatar. We didn't
talk about like the Spider Bite. Yeah, yeah, it's so good.
Oh there's also you know we didn't get is we didn't get Spider Man,
who is anton made with the Spider powers? Oh my god. Okay,
see this is why I'm so mad that the movie's not out online yet because
I want to go watch it like ten more times and down like right now
people are doing stuff of the trailers, but I really can't wait for like
TikTok once it's online and people are just doing like frame by frame youtubes and
tiktoks and all that. Well, speaking of Legos, well, it's been
awesome having yawned. People want to hear more about you. I'll talk to
them about where they can hear you talk about legos, and even more importantly,
where they can hear you talk about Marvel comics. Absolutely so um,
Twitch dot tv, slash, Silver Dreamer, soil. We're with a why
During the week, I build lego and building block sets. Um. Actually,
this coming week I'll be building a giant lego or giant building block Bumblebee.
It's like a foot and a half tall. It's gonna be super fun.
Um. An actual Bumblebee or the transformer Bumblebee transformers Bumblebee. Okay,
uh yeah, in his robot form, he does not transform foot and a
half tall Bumblebee insect would be terrifying, and I would love it. It
would absolutely be terrifying. There are some that are a few inches big,
but I haven't bought one yet. Um uh. And then on Sundays,
I also read Marvel comics. It's against tls, but I'm too small to
be caught, so so I do read Marvel comics onstream, and I try
to choose the comic that has the most ado with something going on in the
movies or whatever. So we just recently did Secret Invasion and up next or
doing Spider Verse. I don't know what we're going to do next, but
that's been a lot of fun, So follow me on Twitch there. My
other big thing is that I have a podcast called Hype is My Superpower.
Me and my buddy Steve. We both read way too many comics and we
talk about it. Yeah. I stream the recording on Twitch as well,
so if you find me there, you will see us go live on Sunday
afternoons and we're going to be talking about AX Judgment Day, which is something
that we are reaching out to you and Paul for having a guest on our
pot and that's gonna be super fun. Yeah. I've been a guest on
their Pot of Bunch and I listen to their Pot of Bunch. I think
if you love comic books, it's really good. But also for me,
as someone who doesn't like I said, it's just hard for my brain to
wrap myself around that media. I have such a good experience listening to your
podcast if you explain the comics and then talk about them in ways that even
though I haven't read it like, I can totally follow along. So check
out both of those things. We'll linked to both those in the show notes,
and of course this is an Ethical Panda podcast. You can find this
podcast and Star Wars Universe podcast, my other one, both of them at
the Ethical Panda dot com. You also find them wherever you can find podcasts.
Most importantly, though, we want to know what you think. Send
us your feedback. What do you think of this movie? Do you love
it? If some reason you didn't like it, we'd love to hear that
too, though, I'd be you gotta make a good case because I'm gonna
be kind of surprise. Everyone gets to have their tastes. Let us know
what you think. We'd love to hear from you. Would love to hear
all the feedback. So all that is on the Ethical Panda dot com and
it's also all on the show notes. So I'm about myself. Will thank
you all so much. It's been a crazy week, so there's not gonna
be the Patreon content, which I apologize for, but we'll get back to
that soon. Thank you all so much, and have a great day. By