Hello, and welcome to the show. I'm Martin Willis your host, and I don't know why I'm in a great mood today. I haven't figured out why, but I just am. Our guest today is Steve Ward. Now, actually he is known as Switchblade on Mac Maloney's show, and that's how I talked to him the first time. And I thought, Wow, this guy's really knowledgeable, so I gotta get him on my show sometime. And then I got a little nudge from a friend that listens to the show out in San Rafael, California and said, hey, you ought to have Steve Ward on and I said, oh, yeah, you're reminded me. And next thing you know, Steve is on the show. That was only like a few weeks ago, and he said he was available, and here he is. And before that, I have Alajandro Rojas with the news coming up, and just a second here, I just want to thank everyone that helps support the show and for all the people behind the scenes helping out with the show. I appreciate that too. We also have a blogger named Charles Lear so you can go over to our website. We have a new blog up there and he's been putting them out about once a week, so check out podcast ufo dot com and if anyone wants to support the show, all the informations over there as well. And Alejandro, how are you doing? I am good? How are you, my friend? I am doing really good, really good. I know you're in a good mood. I think it's just like that. Yeah, it must be that something like spring is in the air or something. You need to cut that out. I know I can't not to generalities, but is it weird that you're in a good mood because you have a Russian wife and Nike in Eastern European? It seems like, you know, it's you're odd if you're you're happy. True, I think that is true. You're not supposed to let you know, in the in the in those areas. Yeah, yeah, no, no that it just makes you feel weird when you're happy, you can't be happy. No, then you won't try to figure out a way to get things if you're happy. M hmm, you know that's that's what they do. Interesting. Interesting, Well, you better cut it out. You're gonna get in trouble. I know. I'm glad she's not listening. She never does, so I'm safe. Yeah, So what's going on in the UFO world? UFO world, so a lot is going on. Of course, last week we talked a little bit about the AAPC, the Aerial uh Anomalous Phenomena Conference that was held by the Scientific Coalition for Upology the s SCU. You know, all of these acronyms. But Billy Cox wrote a story recently. Billy Cox does a blog called Devoid. It's for the sarahs Orda Harold Tribune, and they're kind of tough to find. But of course, you know, all these new stories that I talk about you can find on the front page of Openminds dot tv. And this is a great one. The story is called drilling In. That's why you can never find his stories because they never have UFO in them. And I'm not sure how he creates the titles. That would be something great to ask him, but he's great. I mean, I love Billy stuff. So if you're not following the Devoid blog, you really need to. Like he says he's been doing this year for years, and he says he's like the loan you know, mainstream journalist blogger out there writing about this stuff. And for a while he was Now there's some more, but he was at that AAPC conference and he was able to write up a story just the other day about the presentation on the NIMIT event. So of course you've had Robert Powell on to talk about some of this. But they they have this two hundred and seventy page report that's coming out years of investigation. Of course, Robert's been on this. Robert a member of the SEU, but he's been on this case for years, even before we found out about it in the New York Times, and so they finally released their report. He did this report with Peter Really. Peter really is an engineer. He used to work in the Silicon Valley since retired and now he's interested in this phenomena but has been looking for a credible place. He thus far has not felt he's found, you know, a credible organization to be honest, that he would be able to join and do this sort of research. So he's excited about it and SEU is excited to have him because in this report they do some really great work. One of the things that Peter focused on is kind of estimating the speeds of the craft. Now he had to use anecdotal information. They really didn't have any radar, so they just had to say, okay, David Faber, for instance, the commander who's a he's a jet pilot. He's a commander, very important person, very capable, credible person. He says he saw the object at this point, and then saw it at this point or radar caught it according to radar operators, at this point, and then you know, at this signment was seen at this point. So using that sort of data, they were able to estimate the ranges of speeds that this thing has gone on, you know, the velocities at these things were traveling at. But even their conservative estimates estimate these things going at least ten thousand miles per hour, experiencing huge G forces of uh, you know, anywhere from fifteen or sixteen up to three hundred plus g g's, which, of course a G force is at one and what you're experiencing right now is one G. You know, the gravity pulling you from the planet. But when you're traveling fast, you experience you know, greater G forces. Now this is interesting. Eight or nine is really what about the most that a vehicle can take, let alone a human being. So a human can take that at a few seconds before they'll pass out. So these are extremely fast accelerations that they're talking about, And eight or nine gies is as fast as an F sixteen could go before it starts following apart. So it can't really pull those types of g forces at a sustainable period of time. Now, to move these masses something in the size of an F sixteen or F eighteen, which is what they're flying at these you know, speeds, it would take they estimated gigawatts or the equivalent of two tons of T and T or in case it's of like, you know, the equivalent of a nuclear or nuclear explosion. Why is that important because when we see an expenditure of this sort of energy, we see nuclear blasts or we see you know, let's take a rocket like the Saturn five or something. You see these huge engines and explosions. That's what a rocket is. It contained explosion, So it takes you know, a huge it's something that is observable. So if this thing was able to generate and expend the sort of energy that was witnessed by you know, the witnesses, we don't know how that could be. That's just not possible from how we understand physics. So you know, some of that's just kind of a little bit of what Billy Cox is getting into when he kind of goes over you know, what they were doing and what they were looking at in their analysis. Now, the full analysis is going to be coming out in just the next few days, along with witness testimony. So they've talked to a lot of witnesses and we'll be able to hear audio and see some of these witnesses talking about their experiences. So it's going to be really exciting when that report comes out. But yeah, this Lea Cox article I really like. I think Billy's great. He's someone to follow. He always does a good job kind of you know, their blogs so often they are humorous. He puts his own humor and perspective in there and he does a great job with that. So highly recommend people want to check that out. Have you noticed in the last just in the last few weeks, there's been I think two more witnesses from the Nimitz case that came forward. Yeah, well when Robert's report comes out, there'll be even more. So, yes, there have been, and essentially, you know, if you've been following online. There are these groups. So for instance, anybody who used to be on the USS Princeton that was the essentially the radar support ship that was supporting the USS Nimits carrier, and they're the ones who caught the objects on radar. Kevin Day, one of the witnesses. You've had him on, you know, it's working on that. They have Facebook groups where they talk about this stuff or jet fighters keep in touch. So over time and as it has been getting more attention, it's not so much that they didn't know, but they've been conversing and more and more people seem to be feeling comfortable to talk to specific people. And especially as you know, some of these witnesses like David Fraber or Kevin Day, you know, have good experiences with some of these people. They're able to say, well, you know, definitely I would recommend you talk to these people. Don't talk to them. They kind of creeped me out or I didn't have a good experience. But here are some people like they got a little I think they liked talking to you from what I understand. But and I can understand that you're a happy guy right just today, at least today you know, it's really kind of very strange about this case in general, and I wonder if it's been addressed anywhere, and that is that some people had to sign in DA since and some did not. So and you know Kevin Day who was on the show, you know, that's it's pretty dramatic what he experienced and he was not even asked to not talk about it, never mind sign something that's really bizarre. I think it is, well, you know, when it hearkens back to for better or worse, depending you know what people believe. It's just kind of what we've heard over the years from military quick cases and military witnesses. At least if you're someone who actually talks to these guys and doesn't kind of summarize and make assumption is that you know they're the military is not prepared for this sort of stuff. There is no issue we can hear from these witnesses, and we've heard from these military witnesses across the board for many, many years, the same sort of story that when something like this happened, everybody feels awkward and uncomfortable. There are people making fun of people, which you know, some people have gotten really upset about there's some people yelling at each other. They're just there is no consistent pattern because no one knows how to deal with it and they don't have really a set of instructions. Even I think intelligence officers they don't know what they're supposed to do. Are they supposed to do something with it? Are they not? So there's these inconsistencies because everybody's dealing with it the way they think they're supposed to or should or not deal with it. Because of course, many of these things just get swept under the rug because I think, you know, they're like, well, we'll get made fun of. I don't really have any instructions on how to deal with this, so I'm not going to deal with this. I'm going to sweep this under the rug. That's the most common thing we hear from military witnesses that everybody else just didn't pay attention or they told me to sweep it under the rug. So I think that, you know, all of these inconsistencies and everything that we see and all of these difficulties these witnesses witness has had, it's kind of nice. Now they almost have this support group like they've never had before, which is making them more comfortable to come out and speak, I think, but we see, yeah, just the confusion, the confusion. Nobody knows what to do with it, even though what's very very interesting is these guys are all very convinced that, you know, what they experienced was something unusual, something that was not ours, and it makes them think, what else is going on out there? And what's going to be great is this History Channel show when it comes up. Now, I don't think you know, people when lu Alesando, let's say, says I've got more UFO disclosure to share with you all, I'm trying to get more and we'll have more in the History Channel show. A lot of people in the UFO community are like, Oh, he's finally going to show us the aliens or tell us what happened at Roswell. No, what they're talking about is this sort of data that they've achieved, you know, to us or to some people, you know that an alien body is what's exciting to these guys. It's exciting that they had experiences with technology beyond our own, and that is extremely important. That's the type of data and information we're going to see, and from what I understand, we're going to have more information about tik taks that other people saw these sing craft, and we're going to hear from that, and especially you know, and some of these witnesses have talked about it, these occurrences where there were multiple objects, very very many of them. So I think we're going to hear some really incredible stories and here from witnesses related to those incredible cases when this History Channel show arrives. Now you may be like, well, I've heard about you know, UFOs and jets chasing UFOs. That's not exciting to me. Well, that's exciting to a lot of people into the mainstream, especially witnesses. So don't expect, you know, that they're going to be like Carton out an alien body and saying, look, here's Joe. We've been working with Joe for you know, twenty years. He's an alien from Zetta Reticulie. That's not the type of thing they're talking about. They're talking about, you know, credible witnesses discussing their credible experiences and hopefully some hard data, like some radar information or some analysis of materials. Yeah. Yeah, even that alone, analysis of material that can't be explained, that's exciting enough. Not that it's any you know, solid evidence that it's it was created by extraterrestrial intelligence, but still it's it's it's fascinating anyway. Yeah, it's a conversation at another level where these are a group of people that can challenge mainstream science if they come out and say, hey, this is what we found, we believe it's anomalous. Now mainstream science it's kind of incoming upon them to answer them. Whereas the lowly UFO researcher out there, who may be able to have raised some funds to have an analysis done, isn't really going to get that attention. Nobody's going to really care to address and their claims. But you know, we've got this whole thing's been brought to a new level that makes this all very exciting. Yeah, excellent, all right, I'll hundred, thanks so much, thank you, Okay, and we'll see you next week, right, see you next week, all right, thank you and talk to you later. Yeah, bye bye. All right. Everyone. Our guest, our guests Steve Ward aka Switchblade over at Mac Maloney's show Military What X Files over there. We've had we've done some in studio shows there and I got to talk to Steve, and he grew up in Michigan and he was there during the flatback in nineteen sixty six that Sparkeder's interest, and then not too far away from there was a Mothman. So we might get a little off the UFO topic here and there tonight, but we'll still have a good conversation. Welcome to the show, Steve. It's great to be here. Thanks for having me. Yeah, so, how how did Mac find you? Anyway? Are you just someone that called into the show one sir? How did that happened? No? He Uh well, I was a fan of his Wingman books for a long time. Oh and I even wrote Mac a fan letter eons ago, way before the radio gigs, and I actually got a response. But we were connected on Facebook, and I think what happened was I I attend the Mothman Festival and had post a lot of stuff about the Mothman and paranormal in general. I think Mac must have seen that I invited him to the Mothman Festival one time, you know the way you can invite people to various festivals and so forth, And he must have seen my posts on the Mothman, because one time he just asked me if I would come on and talk about John Keel and the Mothman prophecies. And we did that. We did a couple of segments, and then he started to have me come back as a correspondent and we've been doing it for about three years now. Yeah. Yeah, he's he's a fun guy, isn't he. Oh? Yeah, since the show is a blast too, right right, Yeah, there's a little sidekicks going there. So can you just go ahead and give your overall background if you would? And you know, and I know you went and you actually met Ray Stanford, who calls in the show quite often and has been on the show a number of times as well. But you also met Jallen Heineck and back in nineteen seventy six at Moufon event, wasn't something like that. Yeah, it was a Themufon Symposium for nineteen seventy six and they held it in ann Arbor, Michigan. And the reason they did was because it was they were looking back ten years before it was. It was March of nineteen sixty six when the wave of sightings and landings took place in uh, well, they're kind of in my backyard in ann Arbor, Michigan, Dexter Hillsdale, And that was the time when doctor Heieneck he was still attached to Project blue Book, but he was soon to to leave blue Book and start the Center for UFO Studies in Evanston, Illinois. But that was the time when he uttered the famous phrase that some of these sightings might be swamped gass. And of course that's all the press needed to hear, and that would solve the ufall mystery for all time. And those were those are some sightings in Hillsdale, Michigan, in a swampy area. And uh uh he didn't believe, you know, he thought it was possible that some of them maybe swamp gass. But he had been he had come to believe that, uh, there was you know, something much more to this. He was. It was a colleague of doctor Jacques Falet by this time as well, who was the uh uh, a computer scientist and mathematician that came over from France. And uh but anyway, in uh in nineteen seventy six and ann Arbor he he was the name of his talk. It was great because it was called swamp gas plus ten in counting. So he recoued he recounted those days and the and the chaos and the fiasco. He had some great cartoons of the time. Uh, not like one where, uh, you know, you're seeing the little Green Man. They've landed in their saucer. They've got these horrible looking uh ray guns and everything, and they've stopped an Earthman on the street and they say, take us to the one to call the swamp gass. So he had he had quite a bit of fun with it, and uh he but then, like I said, he had started the Center for UFO Studies, a very prestigious outfit, and uh it was great, you know to see him. Ray Stanford was talking about his project back then called Starlight International, where he kind of made his own like a UFO landing port, and I thought it was kind of silly, but he in fact he was getting great photographs of anomalous object in the sky. I think this is in Texas somewhere, as I recall, And I even met in the lobby, I met Gray Barker, the uh the infamous Gray Barker of Saucerium Publications. Of course, he would be far too controversial to speak at a Newfound symposium, But I actually kind of cornered him and uh and did a kind of a mini interview because it was like my chance to talk to Gray Barker. Wow. Uh and uh. And it was in nineteen sixty six to the flap that took place back then that kept you interested. It was March of nineteen sixty six. Yes, and a lot of credible sightings. I mean a lot of police officers were saying these things. Uh. There was a landing on the frank Manor farm in Dexter and a lot of people witnessed that. So and of course the news media reported on it. They were always a little bit tongue in cheek. But I was only in junior high at the time, so I couldn't play UFO investigator. But it was a pretty exciting time. Yeah. Yeah. And how long did that What did that flap last? I think it lasted a few months now it was. It wasn't just restricted to that area. It was all over the Midwest. And as if I recall correctly, there was another one that came up again in a couple more years, but that was around the time of the I don't know if you remember the Dale Sparse sighting. The police officer that chased the the object across northern Ohio and the Blue Book got ahold of them the air for us, and they made him look like a fool. It was. It was really bad. He actually saw this thing take off and they told him that he chased the planet Venus. So that was it really kind of it really ruined his life at the time. I don't know if he ever recovered. But a lot of a lot of things are going on. Like I say, a lot of very credible people were saying these things and this is more in the way of landings and so forth. This was, uh, you know, we weren't they weren't talking too much about abductions at that time. That was the Betty and Barney Hill incidents probably the thing that really triggered that. Of course, these things have been going on for a long time, just hadn't been reported. I guess. I'm at the SCU conference they had recently in Alabama. There was someone talking there about um time and high speed travel and all that, and he said his theory was that on these flaps, even though they may happen a couple of days apart, it could be up to fifty years apart for the for the passengers if there's any in the vehicle, which is another mind bender, you know, to add to the whole the whole speculation of well, it's true, we really you know, the bottom line is, we really don't know what the heck is going on. I think we have made some progress, but there's there's another thing to consider. Uh. I've heard people over the years say that, well, you know, we don't hear much about UFOs these days. They must have either all gone back to their home planet or or you know, people have suddenly regained their mental health or something. But I don't know if you were familiar with a there was a great resource that isn't there anymore, but it was called the UFL News Clipping Service, and it was published every month. I think Lucius Farish out of Arkansas, I think was the first one to publish it. Anyway, for five dollars a month, he would he subscribed to all kinds of clipping services, so he would gather all these these UFO reports from predominantly the US, but also all over the world, and even had a Fordiana section. And what what you would find out if you subscribe to that that while you know early on the mainstream media did cover some of these things, and they do occasionally. I mean, we had Betty and Barney Hill, we had the Pascagoula incident, we had the coin helicopter incident, so and O'Hare and more more recently in Stevensville. But there's these huge gaps in between. But if you were to subscribe to this clip clipping service, you would find out that these reports are going on all the time, but they usually don't get any further than their local newspaper, very very Seldoman of the wire services pick it up. So the activity has never really stopped. Wow, that's that's interesting. Now it's up. You can put a Google alert on to do basically the same thing as a clipping service, right, Yeah, yes, we think so. I don't know how much. I guess. I guess a lot of that would be catalog and being able to find on the on the internet. Yeah, on the internet only, And I'm not talking about newspapers. And I wonder if that still happens. I wonder if there's still like local newspapers you know, in different regions that report it um report a UFO and it never goes anywhere online, you know, I wonder if that happens, and how many people still don't. You know, I'm not sure that I would report something to a to any agency, you know, I don't. I don't need to grief. I mean I might go to uh oh, who's the gentleman Peter daven report. Yes, I might go to him, but I certainly wouldn't call my local news and tell them that I'd seen something in the sky. Well why, because you think that you get hassled basically, Well, yeah, I think that it won't go anywhere. It won't, it won't hit a database that means anything. Uh but uh, you know, uh, a few months ago, I my car broke down and uh so, I you know, I've got I've got a couple of man stickers on my bumper. I'm afraid I'm that kind of guy. Well that the tow truck guy pulls up and he looks at that and he reads something. He says, well, you know, I had some experiences. So we're driving back and he tells me he was in the military. He was in a base I think in Alabama. He and his friend were out on a patrol. They saw a strange looking cryptid on all fours hairless cut right in front of their car and run into the woods and they went they you know, they went in so far. His buddies stayed in the car. He went into the woods a little bit, but thought, no, I'm not going any further. Then he told me about a couple of other paranormal experiences he had. So I get back to the dealer, the guy that has fixed my car before, and he knows he's seen the t shirts theywhere, so everybody knows that I'm one of those guys. And then he says to me, he says, you know, did I ever tell you about the UFO? I saw? It was north of Detroit, the country, and he tells me about this classic flying sauce or UFO. He sees it on a tune lane out in the middle of nowhere, and they whip around to try and get another look at it, and it's gone. Two weeks later, I'm at my dentist and my dentist says, what are you doing this summer? And I said, well, you know, I'm speaking here and there on you know the weird stuff UFOs and bigfoot. He said, well, you know, I saw a UFO up north once, and he tells me his story. So it's it's it's like so many people have had. Have you ever been at a dinner party or at a restaurant people start talking about hauntings. Yeah, a lot of people have some kind I'm an experience. It's it's very much like so many people. Now I'm not much of an experiencer of unfortunately, but so many people have these experiences and they just kind of keep them close to the vest because of the ridicule factor and the giggle factor. Exactly. Yeah, Hey, we're ready to go into break, so hang in there. Everyone will be right back right after these message. All right, welcome back to the show. My guest tonight is Steve Ward from Michigan or he ask if he lives there now, but that's where he grew up. We were just before the break. We were talking about how things happen at dinner parties and and uh, Steve, I have to say, I agree. There's so many times that I've either worn a UFO T shirt or something and someone will stare at it, then start, you know, turn away, and then get into conversation and next thing you know, they're telling me about this amazing UFO story. It's it's really like you said, people hold it close to the vest a lot of people. And you know, in the chat I was looking in just you know, during our break here, and you know, someone posted on there that about ninety percent of the people do not report, and I agree, I think that numbers fairly close one way or the other. Yeah, isn't it interesting the way so many people have a wide variety of experiences if we could put under the broad blanket of the paranormal, but just don't talk about it. And uh, well, you know we're used to seeing if it ever comes up on the news. A lot of times they'll say it with the very end and with the they'll they'll put it in a tongue in cheek way, and that they giggle about it a little little bit. And I wonder, I've always wondered what it what it says about the psychology of the well, the mainstread I guess the mainstream media. Uh, they just, uh, they just don't want to deal with it. And I think even if somebody, I think some of those people have probably had their own experiences, but god forbid they ever admitted to a colleague or talk about it on the air right. Well, you know, I think it's it's a little more. I think it's changed a little bit within just the last year. It just seems like there's there's an easing of that tension um that comes up when people are talking about in public, um you know about about UFO sightings, you know, and I think you're right, yeah, And you know, George Knapp has uh for years just done it. You know, he's had the courage and to just go ahead and and talk um you know UFOs with on you know, on TV, and uh, you knows, he's still you know, he still has a job. And because of him, we've got the h to help get the story out about the so called Skinwalker Ranch, which is another one of these areas where you know, all kinds of different phenomena seems to occur. Yeah. Yeah, that's a fascinating story. And M'm I'm attempting to get George on. I've I've tried to get him on this show for a number of years and and uh think I'm going to be able to do that, but it's just going to have to be at a different time, um that the show will be live, that's all um, you know, like a prerecorded show for a podcast or for KGRA A radio and other radio stations, do matter, digital network all that. So anyway, UM, I hope to get George on and that's one of the main topics I want to talk to him about, is the skin Walker. I read that book. I'm not sure if you've read it. It's it's fascinating. Yeah, yes, yeah, And that's one of your that's one of your fascinations in this places like skin Walker. You want to talk a little bit about, uh some yes, Well, well the you know we talked a little bit about the March nineteen sixty six, Well the following November that's when the first not the first, but the big major sighting of the so called Mothman took place November fifteenth, nineteen sixty six. Point Pleasant, West Virginia, right on the near the Ohio River. And Point Pleasant is another area where people were seeing all kinds of strange lights in the sky. They were experiencing poltergeist phenomena, and they were seeing this weird creature whatever it was. The skin Walker ranch, uh, sort of a three ring circus of the paranormal. Uh. They were had cattle mutilations, giant triangles passing overhead creatures seen in the night. They supposedly, Uh uh what are they now? They coursed the uh. Robert Bigelow owned the ranch for a while, and uh, I got I just I just got a wait. I just had a notice on my computer that they wanted to restart it. So I said, no, not now, but not a good time to restart my computer. Okay, But yes, they had a scientific team there, the National Institute for Discovery Science. And the interesting thing there was that they I think they would call him Kellerer, who co wrote the book with George Knapp. I think he said that they they cataloged about two hundred separate events of paranormal activity, from orbs to UFOs to uh, animal mutilations, whatever, and uh, nothing was repeated, you know. So how do you apply the scientific method to something like that? Right? But but to me it seems like the uh, when you look at these these areas, there has to be a reason. Now. John Keel gon Keel, of course them author of the Mothman prophecies. He wrote a book earlier called Strange Creatures from Time and Space, and that's where he first introduced the idea of windows and window areas, because he was trying to come to grips with the reason that, you know, it seems like a lot of these things, Bigfoot, even UFO flaps, they sort of pop in and pop out, almost as if they're coming from somewhere else or manifesting from somewhere else, and then dissipating or disappearing. Now he was kind of vague. It was later on when he wrote UFOs Operation Trojan Horse that he got into some of his ideas about what might be going on. And I have to say I didn't. I really resisted that book when it came out, because I was very happy with the straight et hypothesis. You know, the saucer lands, the little silver suited being jumps out, takes a soil sample, and it takes off. Sometimes they would pick up some buddy for an unscheduled medical exam or whatever. But you know that the framework was et. But he thought that he began to think that the uh, the facade that what you were looking at may not be that important. He thought there may be a cosmic mechanism behind it. And he called he borrowed a term from you know, the researcher Ivan Sanderson, who was. He was known for writing the book The Abominable Snowman Legend Come to Life, and he wrote some great books on UFOs and the Bruna Triangle and so forth. And he used a term called ultra terrestrial, So he'll borrow that and all what he meant by that, he said, he used it. He used it as a literary device. And he said that he thought that perhaps the uh we were looking at the wrong place to look at the et hypothesis. And he talked about, now here's here's my one of my favorite words, that these were transmogrification of energy, and that there was some force or intelligence or something that would would transmogrify into these different shapes UFOs and Bigfoot and so forth. He thought the phenomena may be somewhat reflective and reflecting back what our expectations were. And if you follow the manifestation, the sort of history of the UFOs and strange lights in the sky you had in ancient times the Chinese called them dragon tracks. In another time period, if you saw a strange light going through the sky, well, of course that was a witch carrying her lantern on a broom. And then you had the Foo fighters and so forth. He thought that the thing, that the only thing that may be real were the lights themselves, and that the facade or he didn't say that they didn't think they were illusions because they were taking some kind of at least temporal physicsality. But so anyway, now he didn't, as Tie went on, he didn't actually completely close the door to the et hypothesis. He just didn't think that it explained everything. And I still tend to agree with that. I think I think we're dealing with much more than one thing, one one answer. In other words, yes, kind of like jacque Valet, I guess that's kind of um h hit along the lines of his thinking too. And you know, you're you're probably right, Um it is. It is fascinating when things appear, um and then just like you said, you know, vanish and it's not always. You know, some people that are talking about citing a UFO siting in particular, um, they don't always say that it took off. Sometimes they say it just vanished, you know, and that makes you think interdimensional, what the heck or what what is it? You know? How did that? How is that here? And then it's not here? You know, And you know you mentioned go ahead, Oh, okay, the high strangest areas. You know, we talk about the skin Walker Ranch. I think Ted Phillis was investigating a place in Missouri he called Marley Woods, the Bridgewater Triangle, the Bradshaw Ranch near Sedona, and so forth. But if you go back to eighteen ninety seven, remember the reports of the airship flap, these huge majestic dirgible like craft that we're seeing all over the US and other parts of the world. And there was one in a series of sightings in Ohio eighteen ninety seven, and I think this is I remember about mid April to mid May, and it was these sightings were kind of making a clockwise circle around Ohio and even overlapping into West Virginia a little bit well on the ground in Adams County where the Circuit Mound is, people were seeing something they described as a gorilla or wild man. You know what, it's a big foot they're talking about. They also we're seeing in an area not too far away, these large black cats. These which was kind of odd looking at it had kind of a large head and I think short legs, and so it just reminded me of you know, Stan Gordon did the research and has done the research in Pennsylvania for years, and in seventy three and seventy four he covered a wide flap of strange UFO sightings as well as Bigfoot type creatures in the same vicinity. So, you know, who knows what's going on or how they might really be connected. I'm not sure it's you know, it's it may be too simple to say that, well, the aliens are dropping off Bigfoot somehow. I don't think that it really explains it. But but these things have been going on for a long time. You know, we can find instances where all these different types of phenomena congregate in the same place and time. Yeah, have you ever heard of uh Paul you know, oh yes, oh yeah, yeah, he has, uh yeah, he has. He has kind of a theory about this as well. It's pretty interesting. Um, there's a relationship between everything, which is you know, uh, another theory. I mean, that's all they are is theories and thoughts. You know. Basically we were actually clueless. Well yes, you know, and to say, yeah, the one thing you'll never hear me say that I'm an expert. Yeah, that that's not going to happen. Yeah, yeah, but some people might call themselves at absolutely yeah. Yeah, no, it's a it's just a fascinating topic in general. And um so, as far as you were, you're started to get into I think just before the break you started to get into Mothman, or it might have been just a few minutes ago, I can't remember exactly, but um so, do you did you follow that? Um that that case and what was happening and all that? Yes, uh, the of course it came over the wire surfaces and went over the world that first sighting chase two couples down Route sixty two and the funnel of John Keel because he would occasionally write about the Mothman, he was really the only one that knew that much about it to report it. The Mothman was a It was a paradox. It was what about seven feet tall, dark in color. The red glowing eyes didn't seem to be eyeshine. It seemed to be generating its own light. The wingspan was about ten feet, which probably isn't quite big enough to actually carry a body that tall. People would see it take off like a helicopter and not flap its wings. There were even some close sightings that Keel talked about in some lectures where people thought they heard some kind of a machinery or humming coming from it. It was there's so many things that didn't make any sense. It didn't make sense. It's a flesh and blood creature. It doesn't necessarily it's more like an parishion, but it doesn't make sense there either. And then you had all the strange uh UFO sightings in connection with it. And of course it culminated with the bridge collapse, which a lot of people think it caused directly or fore told, and I don't think so. I don't know that it was a harbinger, but it's it's just one of those things where you know, maybe John Keel never solved the mystery. People asked him what was the mothman? They figured he's the expert, he should know, and he couldn't tell people what really happened again the experts. Yeah, so I had never heard that there was actually UFO sightings during that time as well. Oh, yes, they were just h In fact, Keel saw that there were so many of them. He would go out with Mary Hire, who was a local reporter there, and they actually that there was a T and T area which is north of Point Pleasant. That said, they called it the T and T area because it was a munitions area during World War Two. It was a huge complex. In fact, I during the Mothman Festival, I'm one of the tour guides in the dreaded T and T area where they first saw the Mothman, and a couple of friends of mine, John and Tim Frick, fly the Mothman over a certain part of the ride, so you're guaranteed at least to see the Mothman. It's it's a lot of fun. But that was that was the area where with this this first major sighting took place. But it was crowded when when people thought the Mothman was out there, they were. There were hundreds of people out there with loaded guns and you know, good lord. So John Keel and Mary Hire and some other people would go down south and there, down to a place called Gallipolis Ferry and out in the middle of nowhere, and it was a good observation point because they saw all kinds of strange lights go over. Keel even saw a really close up sighting of of a landing one time, of a very bright object. But that's not the only thing that they saw. There was one one night he saw these they were kind of like purple lights or are blobs or whatever up in the in the sky, and they even came down and they circled him, almost like there was some kind of a living creature or something like that. There. There are people that believe that one aspect of the UFO phenomena is that we are actually dealing with some kind of living being or whatever that just naturally exists in the sky. But it was there was so there were so many different things that happened there. He was in contact with several different people, and there were things going on back in Long Island as well where he lived in that area and all over the Ohio Valley. He was in contact with several people that firmly believed that they were in contact with some other intelligence, and he called them the Silent Contact Ease because they they didn't they firmly believed what was going on was real, and they had no interest at all in any publicity or trying to convince anybody what was happening, so they would be a lot of it was like sort of like channeling where they were getting these messages and so forth. They weren't necessarily you know, seeing a physical being and you know, shaking hands with them. But The Mothman Prophecies is really a fascinating book. And uh, you know, Brent Rains is writing a book on John Keel that should be out to spring sometime. Brent knew John for for many years and it'll deal a lot with it. John Keel's early life was fascinating too. He was really a really interesting guy. But he's uh, uh, forgot where I was going with that. But the the I guess, yes, the Mothman book. The people should know that the Mothman Prophecies that they cut the editors cut half of it out before they published it. They edited it down. Now some of that wash was saved in the Eighth Tower, about two thirds of it. But John Keel told Brent Rains when some years ago he said, if I had told everything that happened in that during that time period, it would have easily filled six books. And there's something else some people should know. There are two other books out now called The Big Blackout and The Big Breakthrough by John Keel. And what those are are some resurrected notes that he took during that time period. Some of those notes became parts of the Mothman prophecies. But you get you get a lot more detail, You get into his thinking, and he's you know, interviewing people and he's questioning, you know, is this person credible? Can I believe what they're saying? So it's really great supplements to the Mothman prophecies. Have you followed what has been purported to be happening in Chicago regarding the mothman sightings too much? I've heard some talks on it. Some of them some of those reports seem to be wringers. Some of them. I know a researcher that went and visited some of those spots and some of the some of the the areas, you know, are the descriptions given don't match up. So I think there's a few ringers in there. But on the other hand, Uh, she said, this is Alison Joornland. She said that she's to found other other witnesses that are very credible. Now, I don't know how it breaks down, but I'm also cautious when when people say, you know, any kind of a winged creature, uh, they want to call it the mothman. Well, I'd be hesitant about that. I'm not sure that these I don't know what to call them. Paranormal entities are that easily U catalog you know, uh, you know, if you go back through I think around World War One, people were seeing some kind of a large birdman in the Ohio Valley along the Elk River Knawa River that they all kind of empty into the Ohio. They were about a ten foot wingspan, humanlike head and they were freaking people out at the time. There was a sighting about three years before the Big Mothman sighting in Kent, England, where this thing looked very much like the Mothman, very similar. But some kids coming back from a dance and Kent they saw some kind of a strange light land behind a group of woods and then out from it came to shuffling thing that it sounded like a that the precursor to the Mothman. So just very very cautious. And then you know Linda Godfrey, Londa Godfrey, who's done great to research into the dogman phenomena. She uh, let's see, she talked about she covered the so called Wisconsin man bat of a few years ago, and that thing was very different. So there's all kinds of winged. In fact, I wrote a chapter for Timothy Green Beckley edited a book called Weird Winged Wonders, and then there I have a after on the on the Mothman Point Pleasant and the Mothman Festival. There's some other great contributions in there by I believe Paul you know's in there, and Brad Steiger one of the last things he contributed, and it covers all kinds of winged entities, creatures and so forth, and the variety is amazing. Yeah. Yeah, Well that whole crypt thing is pretty strange too, and and elusive, and you know, it's just another one of those things you can't just say there's nothing to it, you know, you really and they do and there does seem to be a connection, at least in some cases to the UFO phenomena. Yeah. Yeah, Well we're right at the break again, and so we're going to take a break and we'll be back right after these messages. Hang in there, all right, Welcome back. This is Martin Willis and Podcast UFO and my guest this evening is Steve Ward. And we've been talking about all kinds of strange things Mofman and more, not just UFOs. But we're going to be talking about patterns, and why don't you go ahead? And I know you said your main focus is the patterns found in paranormal and high strangeness areas. So let's talk more about that. We touched on it a little bit, but let's go into that some more, right, because I think these things, not only the high strangers areas, but these these possible links. Now, you can't be dogmatic about these things, obviously, because again we're a really unknown territory, but there are patterns that seem to show up. Now, for example, there are we can probably cite hundreds of cases where UFOs we are coming close proximity to a vehicle and the engine stalls, and we assume that there's I mean, remember the classic scene and Close Encounters of the third kind where Richard Dreyfus's truck gets stopped by a UFO and the of course they overdo it. There the mailboxes are going all over the place. But this is you can find all kinds of instances like this in the literature. Well, I thought, well, where else can you find vehicle stoppages? Well, nineteen sixty uh, Northumberland to England. A lady named Dorothy Strong is in a taxicab and they're going along and all of a sudden they're seeing a essentially a phantom army start to manifest, a huge army. Now as it comes close to them, the soldiers fade out. And this is not the first time this has happened, so they know what this is. It's the it's from nineteen rather thirteen eighty eight, the Battle of Autoburn and so. But the thing is that as it's coming close to the vehicle, the taxicab stalls, the fair meter goes crazy, and they feel like they're being hit by an invisible wall. Now now these things, now, fantom armies are not uncommon. I mean they happen not just in England, but you know, Gettysburg and the same thing happens. But now you wonder, uh, you know, in hauntings and so forth, people will have their batteries trained when when something manifests. So perhaps something of this magnitude could stop a car. But it fades out very quickly, and then the taxi cab starts again. No problem. Okay, let's go a step stranger. Let's see nineteen sixty near Marlington and West Virginia two lane Highway WT Doc Priestley. He's cruising down this two lane. In front of him is a bus full of his buddies. They're going caravan style somewhere. All of a sudden, his car stops and cruises to us. It's just been running fine. That engine stalls and it goes to a stop. He looks over to his left and sees a classic big Foot standing by the road. Now this things seems like it's it's crazy. That's like that when his hair starts to stand up on end a little bit, it is affecting his engine. Now his buddies see that, you know he's not behind him anymore. The bus turns around. They're coming back, and mister Bigfoot recedes back into the woods. He's able to start his car again, he doesn't at that time, he does not tell his buddies, hey, guess what I saw. He didn't want to deal with it right then. So they take off, and very shortly afterwards his car starts to stall again. He sees sparks underneath the engine and there's mister Bigfoot again, either either the same Bigfoot or his kissing cousin standing there, so he tells. Later on, he actually tells he gives a interview to the press about the strange things that happened. Now, there are a few cases on record like that where the close proximity of a cryptid seems like it might have some kind of effect on the engine. But my all time favorite vehicle stoppage, and this gets into you mentioned Jacques Valet earlier, and there's a lot we can talk about him, because he really showed the connection between folklore, elements of folklore like Celtic folklore and so forth, the fairies, the little people and so forth, and some modern day UFO experiences there are undeniable connections like missing time and that sort of thing. But that this particular case was took place, It was reported by Elliot O'Donnell. Elliot O'Donnell was a kind of a paranormal researcher of his time. He wrote books in the late eighteen hundreds early nineteen hundreds and a book called ghost Land. He talks about an uncle by marriage who had a bizarre experience in Ireland going towards Limerick on a haunted road. He's his uncle. They just gave him his name as mister b. Well, he's in his buggy or a cart or whatever it is, being driven by his servant named of Dunkley. Now you don't get a better name than Dunkley for a servant. Okay, So they're going along. It's night, you know, clear skies and everything, and all of a sudden, the cart comes to a stop and he turns around. Mister Bee turns around, sees the horses stopped and his shivering. His servant is in a stupor. He had got a look of terror on his face and he can't function now. And then he looks down and he sees these little shadowy forms swarming around the cart, and so he doesn't know what's going on, but he turns around, grabs the reins, gets the horse moving again and breaks the spell. So as he gets away, the servant comes out of it, and he asked him what happened? What did you see? From his mind's eye, they came upon a troop of dancing fairies making merry. Now that's a bad, bad news. They don't like people seeing them like this, and from his viewpoint he could see the anger on their faces. They're ascending on the cart and they're literally trying to pull him off. So these two people experience something again. If this is a true story, you know we have to put in that caveat but they've experienced something different. If you're going to make up a story, I don't think you're going to, you know, create this duality here, like we saw something different, but it struck me as you know, this is another vehicle stoppage. May not be connected to the other ones at all, but if you think about some many classic abduction cases, Betty and Barney Hill, there's some similarities. At least in the beginning. They're going along in the car, the car stops, they're ushered out of the car by these five foot tall beings. Not exactly the fairies, I would say. But Barney is in kind of a stupory good part of the time, but he's not conscious all the time. Betty is alive and all alert and a real spitfire and giving the aliens a rough time. And also that while they reported very much the same experience, they didn't actually report exactly the same experience the faces and one of them reported that they had kind of amy duranty noses. The other ones said they were more like slits, so the the experience wasn't quite identical. And then if he looked briefly at the Pascagoula incident, uh Hickson and Parker, the passive Googla fishermen that were abducted off the pier in seventy three. Parker goes out, he's unconscious and uh Hickson stays alert. And think how many instances of paranormal of UFO abductions where the spouse is you know, knows what's going on and sees the the grays or whatever, but their their spouse is unconscious asleep and they can't wake them up. So again, I don't know that these beds are patterns, are real or not, but it's just very interesting to, you know, to follow them through. Well, just just one thing I've now I've had I've had Calvin Parker on this show. And by the way, he's up, he's doing really well these days. Um, he's getting involved in all kinds of things, which is great. Um. After he came, you know and started speaking again, actually about one thing, I was really glad to see him come forward finally. Yeah, but one thing he did say was the story about him being passed out was something he made up because he didn't want to talk about it. Oh okay, well that's good to know. Yeah, well I don't blame him, but anyway, so there are are these parallels with another situations. Anyway, but there's something I do have a kind of a personal story about the Hickson and Parker because back back when we had our informal UFO group are sort of de facto leader Lloyd he knew what is it Mendez or Menendez that co wrote the book with Charles Hickson the Pascagoula incident. Yeah, well, well this is back in the middle seventies. We got a hold of a copy of cassette copy of that. You heard about the when Hickson and Parker went to the sheriff and the sheriff went out of the Yes, what sheriff went out of the room and recorded these guys and they didn't know they're being recorded. We heard that back in the middle seventies before, years before anybody else did, and so we knew back then that these guys were legitimate and that something really bizarre happened to them. Yeah, yeah, that's a great case. Yeah it was Mendez actually, yes, Mendez mends Okay, Now there's all kinds of other there's the classic the connection between folklore and UH and modern day UFO experiences are fascinating, and we could go on forever. But one of the really classic cases took place in sixty one and Eagle River, Wisconsin, and that was the Joe Symington incident. And I call them the cosmic pancakes from outer space. I don't know if people remember this case, but he, uh, Simonton was a plumber by trade and a chicken farmer by day, and his farms kind of isolated, and he sees his craft land pretty pretty standard uh you know, uh, flying saucer type craft, and it has come down and he's there's a door open. He approaches it and he looks inside and he's, you know, he's pretty pretty non threatening. He sees these men in there in coveralls. They look like they might be about five feet tall. And this took the case where they they hand him in kind of a silver chalice and indicate through sign language that they want water in it. Now, you wonder what the heck to ets if that's what they are want with water. So he goes to his well and he brings back the water, and he notices that one of them is cooking with on a flameless grill something that look like there's something that look like pancakes, and so they give him some of these pancakes supposedly in exchange for the water, and the engineer doesn't last very long and they take off. The thing is, you can you can hear Joe Simington tell this story on YouTube some of these old clippings, all these these you know, these brief interviews that were done. And the thing is that doctor Heineck got in on this. This is back when he was still in blue Book. And everybody, the officers that interviewed him. There was a judge Carter I think his name was, that knew him and that interviewed him and wrote an article about it. Everybody said that they don't know what happened there, but Joe believes that this happened. Of course, the Air Force said he had a waking dream or whatever. But there's a lot of if you follow this, there's a lot of really interesting patterns here. The judge, for one thing, Judge Carter, by the way, we'll get to tell you the punchline of this in a minute. The Air Force actually did uh check out the ingredients and the pancakes. You're using our taxpayers money. But we'll get to that in a second. So Judge Carter, who knows Joe and figures he's a credible guy, and Judge car it was even they had had investigated UFOs to some degree and said, well, Joe, well, what do these guys look like little green men? And Joe says, well, no, they look kind of swarthy like Italians. And so okay, now here's another segue. John Keel uh found an old It was some kind of a press conference general spats from World War Two. This took place in nineteen forty eight. I don't know what the whole just of the conference was, but he in part of it he says there's no truth to the rumor that Spaniards are driving flying saucers or that that UFO has come from Spain. So Keel had found in some of his own research some of the Uh, now this is before the grays came in. That's a whole other subject. There used to be a time when you could almost never find a gray described in conjunction with a UFO. We had quite a variety of aliens or whatever they are. But Keel found that people were reporting some of the occupants of landed craft as not very not terribly sophisticated, but they would call them like, well, they looked like dark Mediterranean types or foreigners or whatever. So this swarthy looking Italians kind of fit that a bit. And even when you get into some of the men in black phenomena, some of the men in black actually kind of fit that description, which is kind of interesting. So now the whole the whole thing's absurd. I mean, there's a there is a huge absurge factory in so many of these cases, and that's why some people don't deal with them. I mean, if there if this craft has come down from a mothership, what the heck are they doing looking for an external source of water? Uh? You know, and cooking pancakes? Don't they have freeze dried food? Remember the commercials for the astronauts with tang you know, don't they have little little packets? I mean, what's what the heck is going on there? It's crazy camping trip to me. Yeah, well yes, but it's there's this again, there's this absurd factor. But if you look at the possible ferry connection and Jacques Falet pointed this out. When they did the investigation as to what the ingredients were in the pancakes. The one thing that was missing is the one thing that is supposed to be detrimental or deadly to the fairies or the little people, and that was salt. There was no salt in the pancakes. But let's let's look at the just briefly, at the water connection. Okay, there's all kinds of instances where craft gather up water. Ingo Swan Ingo Swan, who supposedly remote viewed the far side of the Moon for a clandestine government group. Ingo Swan was the guy that helped the military develop the remote viewing program. So he describes an incident in his book that they went out to this remote location. He didn't know where they were taking him, the government, this government faction or whatever, and they saw this triangular craft come over a lake and literally suck up the water into it. Okay, there's a classic case in Ontario from the sixties where a couple hear this loud noise. They go over and look over this rise, look down in the lake. There's a classic flying saucerer UFO landed on the lake there's a hose in the lake that's drawing apparently drawing water out of the lake. But let's then we'll go another one. One more mid mid fifties. I can't remember the name. John Black was one of them. A couple of miners. They're out in the middle of nowhere in California. A couple of times over the last month they've seen one of these classic discs flying saucers. And then the guy John is in the woods and he sees what he first thinks is a kid bending over a strained fishing looks a little closer and this ain't no kid. Now. This entity is a little short dude, you know, not exactly a gray It looks like he's wearing a tie, some kind of an outfit, but he's gathering up water in a some kind of a bucket or whatever. And then he follows them out of the woods and he goes to one of these landed craft, goes up the ladder and takes off. What the heck is going on with entities? If that's what if? If that's what this is, gathering up water in a very conventional manner, wouldn't you think that they could go to acme cosmic I don't know, industrial hose or whatever. And so anyway, anyway you look at these, you get these crazy patterns, and these are in sometimes either people that know nothing about the literature or whatever and don't really have enough information to provide a hoax. But uh so, it's just it's just fascinating to see the way that works. And that just makes me hesitant to say that we're simply dealing with, uh, you know, people from outer space, right. I know. There's also a case of a woman looking out her window from a cottage in a lake and a UFO like sucking water out of the lake. I remember reading something about that, I don't know, maybe four or five years ago. So there's a lot of that. Yeah. Interesting. There's a question that came in in the chat that's related to water anyway, and that is is there a link? This is the question to you, is there a link between locations close to rivers and possible portal openings or residual sightings, etc. Possibly you know this This actually gets into the David politis missing four one one stuff. I don't know. If you're familiar with Joshua Kutcheon, he wrote a book recently called thieves in the night, and he talks very very much about He kind of picks up the mantle from Chock Filet and talks a great deal about the the fairy UFO connection. But he also brings in the the David Politis Missing for One one stuff. And for those that don't know what I'm talking about, David Politis has written what over half a dozen books. Now these really really mysterious disappearances. You know, we're not talking things that are just easily explained. And he's found that there are certain patterns that show up. I mean, people will be out in the wilderness picking berries or in boulder fields. But the thing is, without getting too detailed, Couchin found out that some of the patterns are very much the same the people that the folklore that even comes over from the old country like Newfoundland. So for example, the the things you're told about what to be wary of with encounters of the fairies are some of the same patterns that are found in the Missing for one and one stuff. I don't know if you know about how sometimes dogs can't can't track they right, Well, the dogs were afraid of the berries. Uh there, you know, they're like I say, there's a there's a classic case and uh in Newfoundland where a young boy, Now you see, you're supposed to when you're out picking berries. Uh, you were supposed to bring bread with you. Now I don't know if that was if the bread had salt in it would I don't know what the reason was, but it was. I think it was some way. It was to ward off the fairies. Well, this one young boy forgot to bring the bread. Well, he disappears, He vanishes for three days. He shows up, he's in a stupor. He can't remember what happened to him. Now I don't know what happened to him, but it sounds exactly like a textbook case of one of the things that David Politis talks about, with some missing people that come back and seem to be unscathed and UH don't can't really talk about what happened to them. So there's all kinds I don't have you ever heard of of mainbraiding like horse main braiding. There are people, there are Bigfoot researchers that firmly believe that Bigfoot was Alsa Shield has written a book Backyard Bigfoot, And there's others I talk to bigfoot researchers, and they say, oh, yes, there's they believe that Bigfoot comes into remote areas and will braid sort of cross over the hairs of the of the of the horses. Well, that same tradition holds up in Newfoundland where they don't call them fairies there. But whatever these little entities are, they're they're the ones that do the same thing. So if it is a real phenomena, and I don't know if it is or not, there are you know people say, well, some people say Bigfoot, some people say the fairies. So again you get these bizarre connections and patterns that may or may not be legitimate, right right, Um, um, the one the one thing you know, you talked about the connection of between what people are talking about they're seeing, and um do you do you just feel as though that in today's world that um, what people were calling lepricons or what people are saying that are abducting them you know grays, Oh, okay, the good point. I tend to think that, uh, there's a definite connection and there's a lot more detail to that, But I'm not suggesting that leprecons are driving UFOs or flying saucers or that UFO pilots used to sport little green suits and red hats, you know, one hundred years ago. It seems like maybe a third rail, or there's like some commonality that in this phenomena perhaps mask itself or manifest differently in different different ways. There's there's a definite connection there. But I don't I don't know if it's as simple as you know UFO pilots appearing differently, or or simply a matter of perception. I think people you know Evans went who was a who researched the stories. He wrote a book called The Fairy Faith of Celtic Countries. It was published about nineteen eleven, and he went around and he talked to people one on one about their experiences with the little people. And just as we go along around now and talk about people talk to people about their UFO experience or their sighting. So these were one on one, real experiences time after time with people that claimed that really believed, and they would have missing time just in the same way that you know Betty and Barney Hill did, only they would be usually whisked away to the maybe inside a mountain or underground kingdom. Sometimes UFO abductees believed they were taken to an underground base or whatever. There are other aspects whereas sometimes there's a perilous that you know, people talk about being paralyzed when they've seen a couple entities or whatever from a from a landed craft. Well, perilous was another common thing with the with the little people. So it does it seems like there's so many, so many parallels where there's a lot of smoke there that there must be something to it. Right. Well, um, one of the things you said you had an interest in is like h. Van Tassel and all the contact these uh you know a lot of them were Charlatans that were doing this type of thing. But but it's still like a fascination of yours looking. Yes, yes, I think that there may be you know, there may be some uh something to be learned there. Uh. George van Tassel was the He's the one that lived under Giant Rock in California. It had those and I would have loved can you imagine what it would have been liked to go to those great conventions in California. Now, these were mainly directed toward the contact DS, and of course the contact das were usually they came out of you know, forty seven is when Keneth Arnold Head his sighting. And then in the fifties and sixties you had a lot of stories about the contacts with the beautiful Space Brothers, the long haired Venusians and so forth, and a lot of a lot of very dubious stories. But you wonder about some of them if perhaps you know there was something really going on. And uh he Fantastle would have these these great conventions of Giant Rock which catered mostly to the contact ees. And if you want a nice definition of what's the difference between a contact and an abductee is a contact he has a choice, and you know, to make contact. The abductee has no choice. They get that unscheduled medical exam with no deductible and no cope. So but but Van Tassel would sit un a giant rock and he would channel supposedly the Space Brothers. And then there was George Hunt Williamson who did very much the same thing. George Hunt Williamson was one of the supposedly one of the witnesses to the original Georgia Damski contact. Georgia Gamsky was the famous probably the most famous contact. They claimed he contacted the Venusian Orthon in the desert back in fifty two, I think. But it's interesting that. And then you come up to more recent times, not terribly recent, but I don't know if you're familiar with the law of one books. Uh Raw, it was Carlo Rookhart channeled supposedly channeled Raw in other beings and Don Elkins was the facilitator and they when you analyze a lot of these different alleged contacts, the channeling, it does seem like something really going on. It's coming. It's not simply a matter of delusion. I think maybe it's at least it's being pulled out of the I don't know, the superconscious or whatever. But a lot of the names of the entities keep showing up. There are patterns that and uh like Ashtar, that dude shows up everywhere. Uh. But so you wonder what's going on, and some of the themes are the same. You get this theme about how uh and from different people that don't know each other, and generationally apart that the the the entities from Orion, those are the bad guys. They don't want to mess with them. But the good guys all come from from the pildes. Uh that a lot of them talk about mel Deck, which was the planet supposedly between Mars and Jupiter that blew up somehow and became the asteroid belt. So it's very it's just very interesting to look at some of that stuff. Yeah, there's some really bizarre takes on on the cosmos for sure back then. UM, and uh do you think I just something I read? Uh? It was actually the blog that was written for my uh, for my website, UM, from Charles Lee that just wrote it. He's actually talking about kind of like modern day contacts. I think there's a woman named Mary Bishop, I think that's her name in California. Are you following any of that? You know? No, But I know I know that there are modern day and some of the some of the cases are almost like hybrids between abduction experiences and contacts. I think you could say that Betty Andreas and UH contacts and investigator by Ray follower are are I'm not an expert on her by any means, but U but there are. Yeah, they still continue to this day, and you know some of them. Some people have said that some of these, especially the ones back in the fifties and sixties may have been some kind of government manipulation. A gentleman named Orpheo Angel Lucy was one of the other famous contacts that was suggested that he was Again I have no idea that suggested that he was given LSD or something like that, and some of his experiences were induced. But let me give you another interesting pattern here, Okay and Jeffreys. In the sixteen hundreds, she had talked about these incredible encounters with the little people, very detailed, not just dreamlike but very realistic. Well, the thing is, she didn't go anywhere. She was in a trance state in her room when all these things happened. Again, this or few Anger Lucy, he claimed that he had some real contacts where he saw the craft and talk to the entities or whatever, the beautiful space brothers again, but he would go into trances for long periods of time on his couch at home and have more of these incredible experiences with these space brothers. And then recently there was a really fascinating contact case and another one of these where all kinds of different things happened, from hauntings, the shadow people to so forth, and This took place in northeast Wales and the Sutherland family gain or Sutherland. The one young lady she and one of her siblings they were actually talking about they were put under hypnosis as well, having contact with these odd looking humanoids, kind of tall and angular looking, but not like grays or anything like that. But then one time she had this experience where she felt like she went out of body and went down a tunnel and then talked to these people again and had these long conversations. Well, during that particular incident, her mother had gone upstairs and seen her. She was in a obviously in some kind of trance. She was, her body was rigid, her arms were by her side, so she was having this one of these quotes real experiences, but she didn't go anywhere either. Are you familiar with many of the abduction experiences where people think they were floated through walls or up through the ceiling or whatever. Perhaps in some of these, perhaps there's a real experience, but they aren't going anywhere. It's all, you know, in a mental state somehow, not something they've necessarily created, but something you know, external but not physical in the in the sense of actually being you know, taken up into a UFO. Right, there's that one case in Manhattan, UM where supposedly people saw someone come out through a wall and go into a Yes, I think that was a Bud Hopkins in restoration, wasn't. Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's an interesting one. But yeah, Now there was a particular abduction case you wanted to speak about? Was that the one you just mentioned or something else? No? No, this is one. A young lady, Missy Lamontaine, contacted me almost two years ago now and recently I interviewed her on my show, which is the High Strangeness Factor on Paranormal UK Radio, and we had talked several times over the couple of years. She had this experience where she and her husband was standing now she lives in New Hampshire. She was standing, They were standing on the porch early in the morning, seeing these strange lights come over. They lived near an airport, but they're very familiar with the traditional conventional lights of aircraft, and all of a sudden they noticed that they had been standing next to each other and now they're apart by across, you know, standing on each side of the porch, and they look up and they see this large black triangle so low it's brushing atops of the trees and that, and before it even left. It's this is something that happens in a lot of cases as well. They didn't think anything of it at the time. They just turned around and went back to bed because it was early in the morning. Was later on they realized what the heck was that, And then she realized that they were missing some time because they didn't realize it before. So what I did was now she tried to make a get a breakthrough through regressive hypno but was not successful at that time. So when I talked to her, I asked her several what I call John Keel questions. Now John Keel had a catchphrase and he said, ask the experiencer essentially what did they have for breakfast? And what he meant was find out about the individual. And he found that people that were having these experiences were having all kinds of other things going on in their house. Some would actually have encounters by meda and black poltergeist phenomena, I'll break in their house, electronic phenomena going crazy, and so forth. So I asked her a series of questions and I found out that she had experienced shadow people. Both her sons were experiencing orb phenomena. One would see it out his window at night, these orange orbs dancing around. Another one had the orb. He was in the house. It came up to him and circled him and then took off. And I asked her, I said, look, this is going to be a strange question, but I knew that sometimes people that, according to Keel anyway, that would have these experiences would have other kinds of experiences. And I said, did you ever see anything like a big foot or some kind of a strange animal? And she said, well no, And she said, well, wait a minute. My mother in law and sister in law and they saw something near the property and they described it as a sort of a panther like creature standing on two legs. He was standing next to a tree. When it saw them, it took off. Some other members of the family saw the same thing at a different time. So the point here is that if I was frozen in my frame of mind in the nineteen sixties, I wouldn't have gone that far to find out the other things that she had experienced. But it turns but now later on, that this gets weirder. She finally made a breakthrough and she had a she had a bush. I can remember the name of the gentleman so that she had. She was fortunate, she had a really good group come and and help her out. But she saw it through her doctor. She did find a psychotherapist that would regress her, and she finally made a breakthrough and she was It was classic. She was felt like she was taken up into this craft. There were two sort of pale looking grays. To her left, there was a very strange looking, almost spiderlike creature toward her feet that she could just barely describe. But on her right was almost a was a female presence, very tall and almost angelic, very and she was trying to calm her saying, don't worry, You've been through this before. Everything's going to be fine. One thing that struck me and Joshua Couchein pointed this out in his book Thieves in the Night that the fairy abductions a lot of times there's the fairy queen, the tall woman, and then the uglier, shorter fairies or whatever in the same area. Whitley Strieber talks about something like this with this tall sort of female presence. I don't know if there's a connection or not, but possibly so. Anyway, she was a very very credible witness, and she's very very philosophical about it. She takes the you know, since she doesn't really remember what happened to her. She takes it with a grain of salt. She doesn't know if it's real or not, but it's just it's very interesting. I'm suggesting the people that when they do their investigation. A friend of mine, Brian Seat, she's a primarily encrypted bigfoot researcher. He was out in Pennsylvania in an area where people have seen Bigfoot and heard the creature. He saw a classic UFO one night, a strange meandering light that was moving around in unusual patterns. It disappeared, it reappears, So he goes out looking for a bigfoot and sees a class UFO. The thing is that it seems like there is these things are connected and there's amazing patterns. Rosemary Ellen Guiley is the one that when she was she was investigating shadow people, she found out that a significant percentage of people that were experiencing these beings or apparitions or whatever, we're also classic alien abductees. How do you how do we you know? What's what's going on here? One thing I want to say very quickly, Well, I think there's a very elusive paranormal aspect to a lot of this. And for a time I thought we were dealing with something like a planetary poltergeist where we weren't really dealing with aliens at all, that perhaps they were uh, you know, trans modifications of energy or or paraphysical, you know, just temporarily real. I think there's a lot to that. There's but I also believe that we are certainly dealing with some other intelligence. There are other other encounters that are just not easily explained like that. So there seems to be this incredible duality going on where we do have a real physicality and perhaps a whole grand central station of different entities out there intermingling with us. But there's also this aspect of human consciousness that is reflective, and some people call it paranormal mimicry. But so anyway, it's I tell Another thing I tell people is you've seen I'm sure the original Planet of the Apes with Charleton Heston, Remember the scene where he's in prison and the guerrilla is hosing him down with the water and he's screaming, it's a madhouse. That's where I get to sometimes when I'm trying to pull all this together, I want to scream, it's a madhouse. Let's see the group that you were talking about that helped him out, helped her out him? Sorry? Is it the foundation for research into extraterrestrial an extraordinary that that rate her an end As has involved in? Is that the one? I don't think so, it's a different one. A local in the Manchester area. Yeah, But but she was, like I said, I wish I could remember the name right now. But she was very fortunate to have you know, you can get when you seek help for this kind of thing, you don't know who you're going to get, you know. And and I'm not sure I would be very qualified in certain areas to help people, depending on what the situation is. But yeah, she was was she's just fascinating. Uh. Talked to her a month or so ago, and uh, yeah, she really really is an amazing lady. Yeah, I've questioned two. It seems very peculiar that you know, these people have the same thing happen over and over again, and then in their family lines and all that. It's it's really bizarre. Um. There's also a lot of commonalities. I think that's what I find the most fascinating part of it, um, you know, speaking to people like Kathy Marden and um, you know, just the commonalities makes it fascinating. Whatever it is that it's happening, you know. Um. And some of it just like what we're talking about tonight. Some of it could be, um, you know, sleep paralysis. Oh sure, you know, things like that. It could be something um, you know, imagined also, but some people seem pretty devastated by the happenings of it. And and it's funny at some of the conferences they have like a group meeting almost like almost like a group therapy, just to talk among themselves and it seems to help them. Well, there are so many, so many mysteries. Uh, you know, I mentioned the grays. The grays didn't really seem to show up in mass until oh, I don't know, late seventies, early eighties, especially with the advent of the Britney Straeber books. There are some earlier experiences where the entities maybe looked a little bit like a gray. Even even the Betty and Barney Hill aliens weren't really grays. There was almost like the grays would have been a sort of a counterfeit of them, or if they were to make a sort of an image of themselves more like a dollar or whatever, it would come out like a gray because they look quite a bit different. And if you go back in the literature from the late forties, fifties, sixties, there was a variety of aliens or whatever you want to call them, think of the Pascagoula androids or whatever they were. There are so many of these. A lot of them were actually if you if you took away their sober suit and gave them a little little red cap and green outfit, would look identical to the fairies. But there was such a variety. I mean, there was the Antonio Villis Bois Lady. There was the so many different types of aliens. And then you wonder, Okay, why did it change? Did it doesn't mean that literally the uh, the grays were the new kids on the block and aced out most of the other ones. Or are we dealing with a perception or a facade or you know, is something else changing going on? So these things are all worth considering to try and and and sort through just what is going on right right? Um? So you followed this for decades, you know, the whole the whole thing, and what what what are some of the changes that you've seen that are good? And some of the changes that you've seen are bad? Uh? In the investigation techniques are in the UFO field, you know, I'm thinking off the top. You know, the Internet is like a double edged sword and that oh sure, that came along up while you were doing your you know, looking into this topic. And a lot's changed since then, you know. Alone, Well, I think that you know, there's some that's some pretty good uh. I went to a UFO contact event in Holton Lake, Michigan last September. That was a really well done event. Unfortunately this year it's the same weekend it's the Mothman Festival, so I won't be making that. But there are some really good, very positive people out there doing good things along with all the negative stuff. I think one thing I see is that the people are making the transition, whether they're a Bigfoot researcher, cryptic UFO or whatever. They get to a point like John Keel, did you know Jacques Fallet. He started out as a very nuts and bolts UFO researcher. His first two books Anatomy of a Phenomena and Challenged to Science. Challenged the Science covered this incredible wave of landings in France in the mid fifties. And then you know, he wrote Passport to Mongonia and he says, it's like he hit a brick wall, and he said, look, this is not a scientific book. But people like John Keel started off the same way, nuts and bolts, flying saucers. So people come to a point like I did. I was very happy with et and even another here's another example. Ron moorehead famous Bigfoot researcher. He's the one that captured this Sierra sounds in the Sierra Nevadas, which seemed to be legitimate Bigfoot recordings. They've been examined by experts. Well. His second book he wrote was called Quantum Bigfoot. He's come to believe that Bigfoot is somehow interdimensional and actually phases in and out somehow. And then I'm sure disappointed a lot of the flesh and blood guys. So the one positive thing I see in general is that people are at least a little more open to the possibilities to the patterns and seeing that. You know, why is it that? I mean, I've talked to people like Stan Gordon and Rosemary and Link Gailey, and they've told me that they they've interviewed people that were interviewed previously by other researchers, and the other researchers would tell them, uh, no, no, no, I want to hear about your Bigfoot report. I don't want to hear about the UFO you saw and vice versa. You know, I don't want to hear about the Harry that Harry biped. I want to hear about the craft from Elpha Centurie. So there were they would find that people weren't ready to look at the possibility that there's some interface somehow. So I guess that's the most positive thing. I see that more and more people. I even know of a gentleman that was looking into the dog band phenomena and who was very very set on a very physical, flesh and blood approach, but has has started to think, well, maybe there is something that doesn't quite fit that, maybe there's something else going on. Interesting. Yeah, I've I've had Nick I'm training of his last name, Redferd. Yeah, yeah, throw a number of times. That's his more of his passion than UFOs. He'll he'll write about other things, but you know, the cryptids are fascinating and boided. He's got some great stories on that. Well, he's a he covered lock Ness. Uh, he picked up the Mantle from Ted Holiday. Ched Holiday wrote some great books on lock Ness, and he's another one that went through the transition. He thought Nessie was a He thought it was a when you looked at some of the description was kind of an oversized slug. And then he that was the Great Arm of Lockness. Okay, orm meaning it was an ancient word. Oh rm was an ancient word for worm. And then he wrote The Dragon and the Disk because he found out that Lockness was actually a UFO hot spot. Uh, there was all kinds of things going on there, and Nessie didn't wasn't really acting like a flesh and blood creature, like like something else was going on. Yeah. Yeah, and I guess as we know, uh Nessie the picture that famous picture had. I believe that's been kind of verified that that's a hoax, but I'm not ye sure, I think so. H. There was there was some incredible land sightings that holiday. This is fw holiday. He can corresponded with John Keel, by the way, but there were some bizarre sightings of seeing it on land and it was slithering more like a giant worm or anything than a police usaur. And been holiday. Found out that there were other lakes and locks that had very similar creatures, but they're very small lakes and the fish population wasn't anywhere near the size it woulded to feed one of these creatures, much much less in colony. And then there was a lochness and four years it's about halfway down the loch. There was a Swedish journalist that was doing a research on the NeSSI and he comes across this. He gets lost in the woods, gets turned around, gets close to the water, and then he sees this this thing that he thinks is a submersible, some kind of submarine, and with some divers standing next to it. He gets closer and think, oh, something weird about these guys. They're not divers. They get into this craft and it takes off. He goes back to Sweden and we don't know the details, but he wrote John Keel that when he goes back to write his article, he's plagued by a man in black in somewhere in Stockholm. I guess it was, but so and then uh, like I say. Redfern in his latest book on his book has just been reprinted on Locknest talks about how people have seen other things in the lock, like a like something like a crocodile with tusks, and you know it kind it's weird because if you go back to the history of lockness it was they believed something was in there for centuries. But they called it the Kelpie or the water horse. And what was the kelpie? It was a shape shifting evil being of some sort. And the more the more that he even Holiday got into a doctor Donald Ormond. Doctor Donald Ormond believed that Nessie was evil, so they did an exorcism over the lock and all kinds of weird stuff happened afterwards. So it really but again it was Holiday of self saw it started to see some strange lights in the sky. So you know, we never think of lock Nasa as being a UFO hotspot, but apparently it is or was. Wow, we have time to take one call if someone would like to call in that number six H three nine six seven four h three zero, and that's a show number, only it's not live during regular hours. It's just live on the show. And we have a whole new system coming on board with a new phone number through KGr A Radio that I'll be coming up on a while. I'll talk more about that should be really much smoother, so anyone can call in. That line is open, and so we have about we have I think about six or so minutes left. And what do you think if you are asked this question, what do you think the possibilities of what we are seeing in the skies are? Besides you know, explainable things. I think that I've come to believe that we are certainly dealing with other some other intelligence. You look at the bizarre encounters that occur in Brazil in the late seventies early eighties, covered by Robert Pratt and other Jack Filet for that matter, there's a real physicality to some of it. I mean, look, if there's one crash saucer and a lot of those stories are dubious, then that puts it in the physical. The alien implant aspect doesn't seem like you can easily explain that as a government interference. But I don't know. So it seems like there's this this interface between something about human consciousness and some other intelligence of this other intelligence is aware of this aspect, this hypothetical aspect of human consciousness, and can somehow use it and exploit it to sort of master the activities or to manipulate us. So there's two major things going on. I think, Wow, okay, well we have a caller. Caller, your name and where you calling from? Ray Stanford from Maryland? Y? Well, Ray, Hi, Hi, how are you? Ray? I saw you speak in the nineteen seventy six You Find symposium in ann Arbor, Michigan. That was the Well back, Okay, well we were both there, I guess yessolutely. That's that's way back. Good good memory there. Yeah, I was there. Hey. I thought I would quickly tell an interesting thing related to the Antonio Villas BoA's case, which happened in Brazil, the so called space right where he was induced into intercourse allegedly with an anadium female. The interesting thing is that I was living in Phoenix that and the next day on Saturday, Jim and Coral Arensen of APRO, We're going to come to see me. But I didn't know what they wanted to tell me about. And I had a weird dream the night before they came that a friend and I that were involved in UFO studies with me, Bill Sandford, and I dreamed that we were up on Camelback Mountain and a UFO landed. We approached the side of it and inside we heard something I'd never thought of in relationship to the objects inside. We could hear this, mum, these kind of weird sounds, and I thought that's crazy. Well, I woke up from the dream kind of astonished and made notes of it. Well in the morning. Well, that afternoon, Jim and coil A Rerinsen of APRO came to visit me and they said, we have an amazing case. It's never been published. They told me about the Antonio Villas Bois thaying, well, here's the catch point. Weirdly, they got to the point where he described sounds that he heard these aliens making between each other, and she said, ah, it was exactly what we had heard in the dream inside of the craft. And I don't think that proves anything, but I thought it at least perhaps suggests some kind of premonition or I don't know, but anyway, I thought you might enjoy hearing this story about something that suggests something related to PSI ESP or something was going on about a case that we had no knowledge, that I had no knowledge of until Jim and Carol came and told me about it. Wow. Wow, Ray, you have so many great stories. I always love hearing from you, and especially of the contacts. Yeah, oh yeah. I don't consider myself one of those. But back in the fifties when we had some amazing experiences we got we got classified into that, and for a while I considered myself into it, but we realized there was a much more objective way to interpret the object encounters that we were having. But anyhow, it's nice to talk to Steve. And i'd better let you off because I know the show's about to ann and let you close up. But enjoyed speaking and sharing this with you. Well, a real pleasure, Ray, Nice to talk to you. Thanks, all right, Ray, take care all right? Wow that was great. Yeah yeah, um yeah. I listened to a lot of the shows and I think you had him right in your bio when you were yeah yeah, um yeah. So we have just a couple more minutes. Probably not a good idea to take another call of this at this point. Um, so we were I was basically asking you what you thought that the beings might be, which is just, of course speculations. It's always good to hear, you know, other people's you know, thoughts on what might be going on. Um I still feel though that, you know, I've done this show now for oh my goodness of coming up on eight years in the fall, and I feel as though I know probably less than I did when I started, or about the same, I should say, you know, uh, definitely not on an expert And but anyway, are you available for anyone if someone would like to contact you in any type of way? And I'm on Facebook Steve Ward, and I do. They can hear me on mcmloney's Military X Files as a correspondent every week. I'm doing my own show every two weeks now the Paranormal UK Radio network called the High Strangeness Factor, And so yeah, that'd be that would be great, excellent. Okay, Well, thank you so much. It's been a real pleasure. Well, thank you. This has been a lot of fun, all right, all right, take care, all right, all right, everyone, So that's it for the show this evening, and thank you so much for listening. Now I'm pretty excited. Next week we have Charlie Foltz. Charlie was one of the four from the Ala Gash abduction case and he's a great guy. I'm really looking forward to to seeing him. I want to thank thank everyone that helps out with the show, and I want to also thank supporters of this show. I couldn't do without you. And again, we'll be back next week and remember to keep your eyes to the sky.