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Hey, let's going I Welcome to
the Crampas of Botany doesn't podcast, I'm

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gonna do an entirely separate podcast,
just another one man ranth podcast, which

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might annoy some of you. Not
now, I'm gonna do it, but

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I'm gonna do it later about Brazil
because there was still a bunch of stuff

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that I didn't cover, and you
know, shit, man, I don't

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know that last one was kind of
disjointed. You know, I really regret

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doing thirty minutes of hiking. I
don't know what the funk I was thinking

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mixing hiking, was trying to do
a podcast. I'm all out of breath.

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I sended like nine hundred meters in
thirty minutes. Just you know,

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you probably listened to it. It
was kind of shit got interesting after about

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thirty thirty five minutes. But there
was so much good stuff about Brazil that

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I just didn't didn't have time to
cover or left out. So I'm gonna

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try to do a more thorough maybe
short, you know, half hour forty

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minute the podcast about that. That
said, I'm at the Klowee Native Plant

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Conference right now. I had a
nice panel discussion with the Kyle Liibarger from

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Native Habitat Project and another gentleman and
uh, we just we talked. It

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was it was like kind of a
weird We talked about it was a weird

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time, and we talked about social
media, uh and the role of social

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media and spreading native plant awareness.
But it was fun. It was a

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fucking fun conversation. We got the
bullshit, um and uh, yeah,

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I don't know, it was.
It was. The conference itself is pretty

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cool. I've never been the Appalachia
before, and I've never been the Smoky

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Mountains. I went there yesterday,
Uh with Lily. We were up and

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uh we were looking at the plant
called rugelia, some rare sinesioid composite,

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and we were looking at all kinds
of mushrooms and shit, and you know,

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big big boulders of granite with these
cool inclusions in them, you know,

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like little rounded you know, basketball
size rounded perfectly spherical cobbles, not

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cobbles, but concretions, you know, embedded in this matrix of granite with

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these very large grain sizes that you
could see the little crystal cubes in the

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granite and all kinds of cool likings
and stuff. And you know, I've

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never been I've never been to uh
to this region of the country and especially

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the mountains in this region of the
country, and it's it is very pleasant.

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It's um you know, human human
civilizations turned into kind of the toilet.

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A lot of dollar generals and vape
shops and billboards and ship but that's

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to be expected. This is America
after all. But that said, um,

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it's it's really cool habitat and I
wish I had more time to explore.

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And there's a bunch of cool people
that came down from Ashville and even

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just from Klowee itself who were fans
of crime Pais got to shoot the ship

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with them and talk plants and stuff. So um, yeah, it was

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nice. It's been a nice,
nice experience of far Anyway, today's podcast

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is about a plant that I'm not
really familiar with. Um, I've seen

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it before. I knew a guy
in California that had a plants growing.

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They are illegal. It's a Schedule
one drug. It's an aposta and a

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seeds in the milkweed and oleander family. Milkweed is technically the Asclepia Dotty subfamily

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used to be its own family of
apostacy. Apostac I like the more I

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like them, it's more appropriate to
refer to it as the oleander family,

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because oleanders a plant everyone knows it's
deadly toxic. It's a horticultural atrocity,

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probably very important where it's native.
But you know, when you see it

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planted by the tens of thousands along
the freeway in California kind of makes you

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want to puke. Or in Florida. I think they planted a lot in

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Florida, you know. And then
of course there's that myth about the boy

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Scouts using oleander sticks as skewers for
their hot dogs and everybody dice. You

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know, it's a nice urban legend, whether it happened or not. Either

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way, the family is, you
know, pantropical and even in the temporal

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latitudes of the African continent and North
America and Europe as well. And of

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course I think it's fucking where is
a postin ac everywhere except that Arctica?

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I don't know either way. Uh. Tabern at iiboga is a psychoactive plant

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that is in this family. It's
got opposite leaves, a glabrous uh not.

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I normally think of it as a
shrub, but I guess it can

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be a twenty to thirty foot tall
tree, little orange fruits that look like

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a have an arow pepper and um. It's been used primarily in clinical settings.

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You know, this is not a
recreational compound. This is a truly

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medicinal I guess that word sounds kind
of kind of cringe. It's a truly

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clinical, clinically used psychedelic um.
And so you know, it's it's not

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something I would ever really consider taking, uh, but it's it's you know,

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used. The main benefits are for
PTSD and a lot of for a

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lot of veterans, uh use it
and doing wonders for them and have especially

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heard it and then using the case
of addicts specifically opioid addiction UM counseling having

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hearing it used in that sense,
uh, And it's got pretty good results.

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But it can also be deadly poisonous
too, because like many plants and

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apostina seed's, uh, it's cardiotoxic, you know, just like milkweeds,

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like at those cardiac glycosides and all
their heart toxins in them. You know,

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it's a chemical synapomorphy of of the
family apostinacy Um. But that said,

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there's you know, obviously ways around
that, and I think you know,

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there's the a few cases in the
last fifty years of people dying either

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have you know, they were they
were predisposed to heart issues or you know,

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had a harder rhythmi as, etc
um. But obviously, you know,

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if if it were legalized and used
in a proper clinical setting with a

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physician on site, those troubles could
be avoided and people could be screened and

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not even you know, not even
admitted to programs like this. But it's

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had such positive results for both sufferers
of PTSD and addiction that it's generated a

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lot of interest, especially in the
last five or ten years, with the

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quote unquote and this is another cringed
term psychedelic renaissance. So that's what we

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talk about today. And my guest
has has had extensive experience with this compound

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and has you know, seen it
used clinically and knows quite a bit about

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its application. So we're going to
talk about that, and I hope you

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get something out of it. M
I mean, we talk about everything ethnobotany,

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a little bit on the phylogeny,
you know, what other plants in

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the family it's related to MCLE compounds
in this group of plants, not just

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tabern anti ibogo, which is the
genius and species, but related genera that

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our sister to it, uh,
you know, phylogenetically. And then we

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talk about you know what a standard
iboga trip is, like a flood dose,

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what's called a meso dose, etc. And yeah, it's interesting.

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I had no idea about a lot
of this stuff, so it was really

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good to have this conversation and learn
a bit. And I hope you feel

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the same way. So with that
said, let's get straight to the fucking

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podcast and see if you have.
If you got any emails for me,

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please keep me shut. Crime pays
about and he doesn't email dot com and

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don't be offended. It takes me
a while to respond. But I just

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got a tablet which I've been drawn
on. It's got a keyboard on it

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and I can attach two, so
you know, I could take that on

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the road with me and I don't
have to be typing with my thumbs on

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a smartphone. So I try to
respond to emails within a week or two

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of getting them. So, uh, maybe you just want to tell me

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the fuck off to maybe not looking
for response. That's fine, that's fair

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game. Um yeah, and then
I'll do Uh, I want to do

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another podcast because there was just about
Brazil and other recent travels, because there's

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just been so much good ship to
see. All right, well that's really

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at this time. Enjoy the uh
the roughly hour and fifty maybe hour and

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forty five minute podcast. Uh.
And if the ads are too painful,

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you can always sign up for the
Patreon and listener. That's all. I

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gotta go fuck your somebody. Well, I'm gonna show you what it's like.

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Or I'm abouna show you some bart
in spect, you know, I

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mean, I'll think they're shot.
They've got nice shop, liberal Barris.

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So they started tagging each other and
Quash come out. You know, I've

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seen a couple of night things in
that room, and fourth get a bunch

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of hippies to have each other to
come a chore tarty to get you to

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stop down thirty night for eight of
these they're about to go bad, but

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they're not hagging. Okay, welcome
to the crime pays, But by me,

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doesn't po cast or come with you
from a motelrooman The Beautiful Force of

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Appalachia surrounded by like five vape stores
and a fucking Walmart and maybe a probably

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quite a few dollar generals too.
Anyway, I'm here with Michael Coyle.

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Michael, would you go ahead and
introduce yourself please? Yeah? Yeah,

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So my name's Michael Coyle and I
been trying to figure out how to introduce

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myself here with Joey for the past
a couple of minutes, and I think

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the best way to describe myself would
be, I'm an occupational therapy practitioner.

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I've been working in neurological rehab,
you know, people with strokes, traumatic

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brain injuries, stuff like that,
for the past ten years. Also been

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working with caregivers of folks with neurodegenerative
diseases, things like Parkinson's Alzheimer's, and

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basically doing occupational therapy based rehab.
So that's it's kind of my clinical background

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there. UM and UH, I
don't know. A few years ago,

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when the uh sort of psychedelic renaissance
for lack of a better term, started

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getting going, UM, I noticed
that there was a lot of convergence between

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my amateur interests UH and my professional
interests in rehab. When it came to

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ethnobotany, psychedelic drugs, and the
potential for new therapies that were coming out

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of these these uh, these medicines
and the and the plants that I had

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been kind of studying, uh since
the early two thousands, you know,

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collecting different types of ethno charticles um
and uh researching their use in their their

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cultures of origin and uh in also
just different ways that they were being used

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in the world contemporary you know,
in the contemporary world, and YadA,

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YadA, YadA, all that stuff. So let's talk about because the psychedelic

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renaissance. When I hear that right
now, my bullshit radar with it so

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fucking I've just dealt with so many
vultures. And you know, having a

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friend too that runs basically a payote
sanctuary, he gets all these fucking nerds

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hitting him up trying to collect plant. I mean, I was just talking

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to him today and he's like flipping
out. He's like, you know,

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for someone from South Texas, he's
got a really good bullshit radar. UM.

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And you know, they're always the
same. There are people that just

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have these interests in the one plant, nothing else in the ecosystem, at

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least with payote and other stuff.
And it's like, it just that feeling

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to me. It just it just
makes me wary because I I feel like,

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you know, they're they're like the
online version of like you know,

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like HEMP, CBD, like vape
shops and shit. You know. So

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it's it's a for me. It's
always a problem, like trying to filter

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out the people that are like legit
scientists and have interest in this stuff versus

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you know, just the normal vulture
capitalism, entrepreneur, fucking personal injury attorney,

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used car salesman people and there's a
lot of that shit online. But

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but um that said, with with
this plan with tavern nathy Iboga, which

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is what we're gonna be talking about
today, which is a member of the

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milkweed family, impost and as oleander
family too, which is a deadly poisonous

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a family known for chemicals and apomorphy's
of cardiac glycosides and basically heart toxins.

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Um I first became aware of it
talking to a friend, uh number of

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friends. I used to have a
lot of friends who were junkies and uh,

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you know, rehab junkies and and
and I I like using that word.

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I don't like dumb in the language
down, it's chunky, it's what

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the shit is. It's not a
lot of people would self describe that way,

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right. Yeah, and they say
that. It's like with people in

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alcoholic say, I'm a drunk.
You know, it's been fucking sober twenty

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years, still goes to meetings.
Aye, I'm a I'm a drunk.

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Still call it like that. I
don't believe it's watered down bullshit, but

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uh, you know. And that's
when I first came came in contact with

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Bogan. I came in contact but
learned about it, someone explained to me.

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And he's been clean off of heroin
for seven teen years. He's one

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of the few that was able to
few friends of mine that didn't die from

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it. Um and uh, he
talked about May. It was ten years

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ago. He talked about a lady
he'd met who started running ebo and clinics

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in Costa Rica. Yeah, it
saved her and she wanted to save other

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people, you know, or quote
unquote saverers. Like nothing's a guarantee.

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Like most things, it is nothing
to guarantee. So I and I didn't

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know this is before I was really
into botany and too. Maybe it was

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fifteen years ago. It was a
long ass time ago, and he described

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this as this kind of miracle drug, which of course is bullshit, but

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that it Either way, it was
obvious that this had a lot opportunity,

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a lot of potential, and opportunity
provided people opportunities to get clean of these

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crippling addictions to these substances, especially
opioids, which are notoriously hard, you

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know, right up there with alcoholism, et cetera, and so um.

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You know, I looked into it
more and then now you know, having

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you know, spent how are many
years of my life into botany and becoming

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familiar with plant families and all this
stuff. Um, yeah, I'm aware

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of it, you know. And
I've seen plants that friends had in cultivation

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before, and you know, generally
unremarkable glabrous leaved tropical grows right on the

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fucking equator and in equatorial Africa.
Um, the opposite leaves glabrous you know,

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little orange fruits or whatever. Um. But the root bark of this

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is what contains this chem Yeah.
The root bark is where there's the highest

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concentration of ibogain and other eboga type
alkaloids. Um. And really the other

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eboga type alkaloids are part of the
experience in no small part when somebody is

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ingesting the root bark, whether it
be traditionally or if somebody's using the root

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bark and one of these um clinics
or retreat centers, you know, Costa

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Rica, Mexico, what have you. Um. So this is what the

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cannabis bros call full spectrum, right, yeah, the full list of other

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secondary metabolites of the plants producing,
not just ibogain. Yeah, yeah,

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I mean, you know, full
spectrum. I mean there are all sorts

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of um, not so scientifically merited
terms that apply to landres you know,

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terpene profiles and hum. Oh god. But the what's the one that pisses

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off Hamilton, the entourage effects?
I don't know. I just think here

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are those things, and I'm like, oh, you don't know what the

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fuck you're talking. Yeah, no, no, but but I think that

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you know it is, you know, there is something to be rocked from

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the interaction of the various alkaloids that
are in for instance, tabernanthe root bark

210
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um. The ingestion of pure alkaloidal
ibogain and hydrochloride is very different than ingesting

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the root bark. And of course
there's a lot of variability uh in the

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eboga shrubs the tabernanthe genus um.
You know. One of the reasons why

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there have been I think one of
the reasons why there's there's been so many

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different species that have been named that
aren't really species within this genus is there's

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there's a lot of variability in the
morphology, you know, the way the

216
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plants look, but also in the
way that the plants create the phytochemistry.

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Um, so you're gonna have lots
of different ratios of ibogaine, ebogabine,

218
00:16:22,919 --> 00:16:27,360
eboga, leine um, coren anthine, you know, all of these various

219
00:16:27,399 --> 00:16:33,559
eboga alkaloids. We should mention too. Apg angiosperm philogeny group I think recognizes

220
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two species, Elliptica and Iboga.
Yeah. Yeah, and that makes a

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lot of sense, um, given
some of the spontaneous hybrids that can be

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produced between these plants. Um.
Uh, there's I mean we kind of

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get get to the botany and you
know it in a bit, but um,

224
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yeah, these plants, uh um
various forms. They will highbrid eyes

225
00:17:00,679 --> 00:17:04,960
and they will create um, you
know, stable or not so stable,

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you know, new types. You
know, fruit types that change when you,

227
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for instance, cross a round fruit
with a long fruit eboga. Um,

228
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you'll get these uh some set of
predictable fruit shapes that that you'll see.

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But then there'll also be some really
weird abern ones. So lots of

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phenotypes can be produced by hybridizing them. Yeah, and people are really just

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now starting to get into this.
There's a guy out in Australia herbalistics Darren

232
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figured his last name, but herbalistics. It's basically an ethnobotany nursery out in

233
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Queensland, and he's been hybridizing all
sorts of plants. But he's working on

234
00:17:48,119 --> 00:17:52,440
hybridizing his round fruit and long fruit
plants now. And it's legal. It's

235
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legal in Australia, not to consume
obviously, but to grow just like sampedro.

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Right yeah yeah, the um yeah, I mean in terms of the

237
00:18:02,759 --> 00:18:06,039
way that you know, laws are
written around this plant. Uh, they're

238
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they're very peculiar. They change,
and that that's why you that's why there

239
00:18:11,440 --> 00:18:15,920
are you know, clinics in Costa
Rica, because the laws there are written

240
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differently or non existent, so an
unregulated market can pop up Australia. It's

241
00:18:19,200 --> 00:18:22,839
not an unregulated market. It's just
the plants themselves. It's not forbidden to

242
00:18:22,880 --> 00:18:26,039
grow them, you know, as
botanical specimens. Right, it'd be like

243
00:18:26,319 --> 00:18:32,519
making it forbidden to grow oleander,
which is deadly fucking poisonous. But in

244
00:18:32,599 --> 00:18:36,799
some cases I wish it was illegal
to grow oleanders, such a fucking horticultural

245
00:18:36,839 --> 00:18:41,400
atrocity, especially in California. Yeah, but that said, it's not I

246
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mean the potential uses of this plant, which I have absolutely no interest in

247
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doing, but it sounds like it's
very helpful to people. Is not just

248
00:18:48,880 --> 00:18:53,680
for for addiction issues, but also
for post traumatic stress. I know there

249
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was like a there was something I
think it was on Duncan Trustle podcast The

250
00:18:57,440 --> 00:19:03,920
interviewed veteran and who would done instead
I had changed his life? Yeah?

251
00:19:03,119 --> 00:19:11,880
Yeah, I think Crossroads Ibogain clinic
in Mexico both legal in Mexico too.

252
00:19:11,119 --> 00:19:15,720
Yeah yeah, yeah, so that
and actually a lot of the clinics that

253
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are in Mexico are working pretty closely
with researchers in the US and in Europe

254
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and uh, you know, I'm
Mexico City, Uh, to create really

255
00:19:26,119 --> 00:19:32,839
good evidence based you know, research
and approaches to using these compounds more safely,

256
00:19:33,200 --> 00:19:37,240
and post traumatic stress disorder with veterans
is one area that's that's being explored.

257
00:19:37,279 --> 00:19:42,240
I think in fact, MAPS the
Multidisciplinary Association for Psychedelic Studies, that

258
00:19:42,359 --> 00:19:45,680
that's one of the things that's in
their back pocket. Is you know,

259
00:19:45,880 --> 00:19:49,359
they're they're fully focused right now on
the MDMA Phase three stuff. Um,

260
00:19:49,720 --> 00:19:52,920
that's not the only thing that they've
been working on over the years. Ibogain

261
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has been another projected. There's and
and uh yeah, I heard I had

262
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heard. Oh god, I can't
remember name. I really liked the guy,

263
00:20:00,680 --> 00:20:06,000
but anyway, the main guy behind
MAPS, Yeah, i'd heard him

264
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mentioned I BOGA stuff. I know
some people are wary of them because they're

265
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you know, they're trying to get
corporate funding and whatever, but fuck whatever.

266
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I mean, that's like your biggest
beef with the issue. I mean,

267
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in the society we live in,
everything is so toxic and polluted commercially

268
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anyway, it's like, oh,
yeah, well, I mean, you're

269
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gonna have to make a weird sausage
in order to get MDMA legalized and used

270
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as an FDA approved medicine. Yeah, and that's the thing. When I

271
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did that podcast with Hamilton that's kind
of the same thing he I think that's

272
00:20:33,519 --> 00:20:38,119
his take on it too, is
because it's so I mean, look,

273
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man, we've had fifty plus years
of this fucking failed drug war that's ruined

274
00:20:42,559 --> 00:20:48,000
how many lives and given the police
an impossible job and created like the richest

275
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black market for criminals. I mean, that is a fucking if you're a

276
00:20:52,359 --> 00:20:55,960
criminal man, that is the drug
war. You are pro drug war,

277
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you know, and you are,
And that's a lot of I mean,

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00:20:57,839 --> 00:21:02,160
I think that's that's why. You
know, when cannabis is gonna get legalized

279
00:21:02,200 --> 00:21:04,839
in California, like all the people
I knew growing weed in northern California were

280
00:21:04,880 --> 00:21:07,960
against it. I was like,
how to fuck are you against it?

281
00:21:07,079 --> 00:21:11,400
Oh? You selfish cunts? That's
why you're against it because you have money

282
00:21:11,440 --> 00:21:14,000
to make, like you fucking you
know. Oh yes, as soon as

283
00:21:14,039 --> 00:21:17,720
it's a regulated market, I mean, it sped up by moneyed interests,

284
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you know. And I think a
lot of that with Payote too. I

285
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mean, I think there's definitely a
solid Native American claim to keep it out

286
00:21:25,480 --> 00:21:30,000
of the hands of whitey for various
reasons. Because I've know a lot of

287
00:21:30,079 --> 00:21:34,519
corny as white people who are doing
really lame whatever, but uh, well

288
00:21:34,599 --> 00:21:38,640
intentioned but just kind of clueless.
Um. And of course there'd be yeah,

289
00:21:38,720 --> 00:21:45,200
the same like the CBD vape shop
equivalent of psychedelic shit that would descend

290
00:21:45,279 --> 00:21:48,880
on We've already got that with the
ketamine clacks, right right. Um.

291
00:21:49,279 --> 00:21:53,880
But but you know, but they
say it's going to lead to extraction of

292
00:21:53,920 --> 00:21:57,599
payote, which I think it would
maybe in Texas. This is a whole

293
00:21:57,640 --> 00:22:02,440
separate fucking things to be two minutes
here. It's related to eyebo game though

294
00:22:02,640 --> 00:22:06,279
in a boga because you have these
two plants that are slow growing, that

295
00:22:06,480 --> 00:22:15,559
have very rich history of cultural usage
that is ensconced in the very fabric of

296
00:22:15,680 --> 00:22:19,440
the culture, whether it be the
bheety in Gabon or Native American groups that

297
00:22:19,519 --> 00:22:25,279
have been using peyote um. And
so they're understandably protective of them. Yeah,

298
00:22:25,279 --> 00:22:29,680
oh, absolutely absolutely. And these
are plants that you know, like

299
00:22:29,759 --> 00:22:34,039
I said, they grow slowly.
Uh, they are in ecosystems that are

300
00:22:34,079 --> 00:22:41,119
being threatened by political instability or and
or self Texas getting fucked into a coma.

301
00:22:41,279 --> 00:22:44,599
It's not going to be there at
least in self maybe in like the

302
00:22:44,759 --> 00:22:48,000
Laredo area, but not in not
where I'm living, right, Yeah.

303
00:22:48,160 --> 00:22:49,680
Yeah, So these are I mean, these are two plants that you know,

304
00:22:49,920 --> 00:22:55,240
disparate their botanical I mean, you
know, they're nowhere near close to

305
00:22:55,319 --> 00:22:59,799
each other botanically, but in terms
of being threatened by the activity of humans

306
00:22:59,839 --> 00:23:04,160
and being tied to very important cultures
and spiritual movements that are part of the

307
00:23:04,279 --> 00:23:07,640
identity of groups of people. Yeah, I mean there's a lot of I

308
00:23:07,720 --> 00:23:11,799
think payotes should remain illegal in Texas
because I know, I listen, man,

309
00:23:12,039 --> 00:23:15,759
I know Texans, and I know
the people down there are some of

310
00:23:15,799 --> 00:23:18,359
these ranch owners that don't give a
fuck about the plant, and if it

311
00:23:18,440 --> 00:23:22,000
was decriminalized and made illegal there,
they would just sell it, even if

312
00:23:22,000 --> 00:23:25,200
it's going to the NAC Like fuck, you're still destroying the habitat. They'd

313
00:23:25,200 --> 00:23:27,119
be digging plants up. But if
you legalize it in stakes where it's not

314
00:23:27,240 --> 00:23:32,160
even native and people can then grow
it and plant it out, you know,

315
00:23:32,359 --> 00:23:33,880
I don't know, that's what's your
opinion on that. Yeah. My

316
00:23:33,960 --> 00:23:38,880
opinion on that is, Okay,
being illegal is the status quo, right,

317
00:23:38,960 --> 00:23:45,400
and the status quo is not working, and by keeping it illegal,

318
00:23:45,519 --> 00:23:49,000
by keeping Payote and eboga. You
know, Tabernan make good point a Schedule

319
00:23:49,039 --> 00:23:52,640
one it's still going extinct in Texas
even though it's illegal, right, right?

320
00:23:52,759 --> 00:23:57,559
And so who are the arbiters of
enforcing you know, these Schedule one

321
00:23:57,640 --> 00:24:02,880
drug laws? The DA? How
much money does the DA have allocated to

322
00:24:03,119 --> 00:24:07,799
ecological preservation? Absolutely? Fuck?
They want it to go. So why

323
00:24:07,839 --> 00:24:10,960
in the hell would you let the
DA be in charge of keeping a sacred

324
00:24:11,000 --> 00:24:15,599
plant legal? Right? And I
think alive? Right? I think?

325
00:24:15,799 --> 00:24:18,480
Well. The thing too that that
really weirds me out about a lot of

326
00:24:18,640 --> 00:24:25,240
claims around Payot two is the people, whether their native organizations or not,

327
00:24:25,440 --> 00:24:27,960
who want it to remain illegal,
also have a lot to gain by its

328
00:24:29,000 --> 00:24:33,240
staying illegal, being they get to
monopolize selling it and providing it, you

329
00:24:33,319 --> 00:24:37,160
know, never mind the fact that
no one seems to know what they're doing

330
00:24:37,319 --> 00:24:41,839
except for a handful of people in
terms of growing it in any sustainable amount,

331
00:24:41,440 --> 00:24:44,759
which is the depressing thing to me. I'm like, well, if

332
00:24:44,799 --> 00:24:48,559
a plant's going extinct and it's relatively
easy to grow, but just slow growing,

333
00:24:48,640 --> 00:24:51,519
why the fuck is there not a
greenhouse growing twenty thousand of these fucking

334
00:24:51,559 --> 00:24:56,880
things in southern California or Arizona because
it's illegal for NACUS right right, because

335
00:24:57,039 --> 00:25:02,799
because the scheduling of this plant,
not just the compound that's in it,

336
00:25:02,880 --> 00:25:07,799
but by making the actual organism illegal, that keeps conservation efforts from happening.

337
00:25:08,000 --> 00:25:11,319
Just nuts and bolts. But at
the same time, you've got these organizations

338
00:25:11,400 --> 00:25:15,119
with these glitzy, fucking social media
pages, and they've got all the virtue

339
00:25:15,160 --> 00:25:19,559
signaling indigenous sovereignty and all this ship
and they're not doing anything. Well it

340
00:25:19,640 --> 00:25:22,799
looks good on paper, but they're
not. They don't know how to.

341
00:25:22,240 --> 00:25:26,119
I don't see where are the like
the pictures of like thousands of seedlings being

342
00:25:26,200 --> 00:25:30,759
replanted, where if they were to
do that, they would be breaking federal

343
00:25:30,920 --> 00:25:34,079
law publicly. And do you think
that's actually occurring then and any significant quality,

344
00:25:34,079 --> 00:25:37,640
because I haven't even heard it,
like on the grapevine that there's actually

345
00:25:37,640 --> 00:25:40,839
that's actually occurring. They're just not
showing it, but they're still actually doing

346
00:25:40,920 --> 00:25:44,799
it. Well, I mean yes, So, I mean I am I

347
00:25:44,920 --> 00:25:48,039
know people that are doing I do
too. I mean I'm only tangentially kind

348
00:25:48,079 --> 00:25:52,000
of associated with us that are doing
that, but I'm familiar with uh,

349
00:25:52,200 --> 00:26:00,559
you know ICP who's the ICPA.
Yeah, and the Benefit Honoring and some

350
00:26:00,720 --> 00:26:07,000
of the groups that are affiliated with
Native American Ceremonial Preservation. I don't work

351
00:26:07,720 --> 00:26:11,000
closely with them, sort of failure, you know, by a distance,

352
00:26:11,799 --> 00:26:15,079
and they're doing good work there.
They are, you know, trying to

353
00:26:15,519 --> 00:26:22,759
create environments locations where these medicines can
be pretty I think even just creating noise

354
00:26:22,799 --> 00:26:26,279
about it is good work. It
is absolutely which they're certainly doing. But

355
00:26:26,400 --> 00:26:30,079
I've been but then there's been fighting
between the Navajo and the IPCI and them

356
00:26:30,119 --> 00:26:33,400
being accused of working with these psychedelicum. I don't know. IPCI was started

357
00:26:33,400 --> 00:26:37,519
by white dude. I didn't know
that. I didn't either. It's anyway

358
00:26:37,559 --> 00:26:41,000
what I think. Whatever, we're
getting off track here, but it's just

359
00:26:41,119 --> 00:26:45,200
it's still just interesting to me because
I'm the main thing that I see is

360
00:26:45,319 --> 00:26:48,400
the habitats getting destroyed, and I
see that every time I'm out there.

361
00:26:49,440 --> 00:26:53,039
I mean, I live forty minutes
from where it grows, and no one's

362
00:26:53,039 --> 00:26:57,079
really doing anything. I mean,
you know people in Arizona that are trying

363
00:26:57,119 --> 00:27:00,359
to do some work. They're growing
a lot of seed, but it's not

364
00:27:00,480 --> 00:27:02,680
needed there zone. I don't know
what luck they're going to have when it's

365
00:27:02,720 --> 00:27:07,400
back in the ground. Um,
if the plants were not federally illegal,

366
00:27:07,839 --> 00:27:14,400
then these groups that are perhaps you
know, engaging in virtue signaling galore or

367
00:27:14,720 --> 00:27:18,079
whatever it is they're doing, trying
to create awareness of the need to solicit

368
00:27:18,160 --> 00:27:25,440
donations, solicit donations, right,
But if the plant itself were not federally

369
00:27:25,519 --> 00:27:27,480
scheduled, then all of a sudden, a lot of that energy and effort

370
00:27:27,680 --> 00:27:33,559
by those people or other people could
go into growing these things from sea and

371
00:27:33,599 --> 00:27:37,000
they can publicize the publicize that,
get funding for it, the whole shebang,

372
00:27:37,319 --> 00:27:41,319
you know, and and the reducing
valid And that's why it makes That's

373
00:27:41,359 --> 00:27:45,880
why it's curious to me that a
lot of these groups want it to remain

374
00:27:45,920 --> 00:27:49,400
illegal. Yeah, how does that
benefit the plant? It doesn't. I've

375
00:27:49,519 --> 00:27:59,000
never heard in an argument that makes
any sense that that these plants are benefiting

376
00:27:59,319 --> 00:28:04,720
from these they're clearly not. I
see Peyotero's licensed Peyotero's harvesting plants that are

377
00:28:04,920 --> 00:28:10,240
the size of a fucking quarter now, whereas twenty five years ago they were

378
00:28:10,319 --> 00:28:14,799
harvesting plants that were the size of
a grapefruit, Which leads when to think

379
00:28:14,839 --> 00:28:18,480
they're just not they're not. I
mean I've watched, I've been I've looked

380
00:28:18,519 --> 00:28:25,920
at payotes and thelo cactus and other
species that have been squashed with a fucking

381
00:28:26,359 --> 00:28:32,000
bulldozer track. Like it's I've seen
so many plants destroyed for the most ship

382
00:28:32,119 --> 00:28:34,559
for brain reasons. Whether it's solar
panels in a desert you know, on

383
00:28:36,240 --> 00:28:40,640
virgin fucking thorn scrubland, or whether
it's you know, Abbot's goofy ass wall

384
00:28:40,759 --> 00:28:44,359
or whatever. You know, it's
just it's it's criminal. It's like,

385
00:28:44,400 --> 00:28:45,759
well, this is the twenty first
century, why are we still doing this?

386
00:28:45,920 --> 00:28:49,039
Like we knew this ship was bad
in the seventies and eighties as a

387
00:28:49,119 --> 00:28:56,839
culture where we failed so many different
places. But I mean, what you're

388
00:28:56,880 --> 00:29:03,279
describing, the onslaught of growth and
development and the sort of molloc of human

389
00:29:03,640 --> 00:29:11,079
movement into nature and just destroying it, that's that is that that is happening.

390
00:29:11,160 --> 00:29:12,880
It has been happening, it will
continue to happen. So but a

391
00:29:14,000 --> 00:29:15,759
drug law, one way or the
other is not going to change, right.

392
00:29:17,200 --> 00:29:19,240
The drug law is not there.
It's not an environmental law, it's

393
00:29:19,240 --> 00:29:25,079
not the it's not for any of
it. The drug law just keeps people

394
00:29:25,359 --> 00:29:30,200
who are very interested and have the
ability to conserve these species from being able

395
00:29:30,240 --> 00:29:33,880
to do it right. And it's
more red tape and bullshit. And so

396
00:29:34,039 --> 00:29:37,799
the only people doing it now are
underground and you know, and they're doing

397
00:29:37,839 --> 00:29:41,640
it yeah right, I know everyone's
got fucking payote plans. It seems like

398
00:29:42,359 --> 00:29:47,880
is the situation with boga then where
it's native similar is it illegal where it

399
00:29:48,000 --> 00:29:52,160
grows native? What is the what
is there A lot of sprawl and cultural

400
00:29:52,880 --> 00:29:56,759
I would imagine it's agricultural sprawl.
I don't know what. It's a different

401
00:29:56,839 --> 00:30:03,160
situation to be sure. Um it
Boga is considered, uh has a designation

402
00:30:03,240 --> 00:30:07,960
of being a national cultural um.
Uh, it's it's it's I forget the

403
00:30:08,240 --> 00:30:15,000
exact wording for it. It's cherished, officially sanctioned, cherished and protected as

404
00:30:15,119 --> 00:30:19,079
part of the cultural importance of gabon. That is a world away from Texas

405
00:30:19,119 --> 00:30:26,319
peyote or it is it is,
but um in terms of you know,

406
00:30:26,759 --> 00:30:33,240
uh, it becomes it becomes a
football for people in power because it is

407
00:30:33,119 --> 00:30:40,319
another resource that can be poached and
it can be exported to eager consumers in

408
00:30:40,440 --> 00:30:44,319
the West and in Europe, um
and as a result of that, you

409
00:30:44,400 --> 00:30:52,079
know, the the native stands or
the um or or the cultivated stands that

410
00:30:52,200 --> 00:30:56,680
the people in Gabon have been uh
you know, tending for their own ceremonial

411
00:30:56,759 --> 00:31:03,680
and cultural use. They get pirated
and so that represents you know, a

412
00:31:03,839 --> 00:31:07,559
significant portion of the amount of the
iboga root bark that makes its way to

413
00:31:07,359 --> 00:31:11,319
consumers. But there's a lot of
and this is kind of cool. I

414
00:31:11,319 --> 00:31:14,440
don't know if you've seen these videos, but like the iboga planting and caretaking

415
00:31:14,480 --> 00:31:18,039
at the Iboga Nursery from Iboga Ghana
YouTube page. Yes, you could watch,

416
00:31:18,119 --> 00:31:21,400
you could see these people are growing
it. Yeah, well the guy

417
00:31:21,480 --> 00:31:23,240
in Ghana. There are a couple
different groups that do it. But but

418
00:31:23,839 --> 00:31:27,640
in Ghana, UM, they're you
know that that's not the native range for

419
00:31:27,720 --> 00:31:30,799
aboga, right, but there's still
I mean there's people growing it out,

420
00:31:30,839 --> 00:31:34,279
I mean, regardless of mind making
money on it. But still it's well

421
00:31:34,400 --> 00:31:37,119
yeah, I mean, but they
are also I mean yeah, they're I

422
00:31:37,160 --> 00:31:41,279
think it's like Bulk African Trade is
one of the companies that's doing that and

423
00:31:42,119 --> 00:31:48,480
UM and they do, I mean, they're they're essentially creating an alternative UM

424
00:31:48,319 --> 00:31:56,960
agricultural location for Iboga and Boa Conga
um and they are connected to ibogain researchers.

425
00:31:57,279 --> 00:32:05,680
Uh, there's a lab in in
South Africa that creates GMP pharmacutical pharmaceutical

426
00:32:05,720 --> 00:32:08,920
grade eyebo game. That's Is it
illegal anywhere on the African continent you know?

427
00:32:09,400 --> 00:32:13,400
Uh, to the best of my
knowledge. Now, yeah, I

428
00:32:13,440 --> 00:32:16,119
don't think it is. Um No, But but it's a resource. And

429
00:32:16,640 --> 00:32:21,759
you know, in a place where
you have a resource scarcity, a plant

430
00:32:21,799 --> 00:32:24,920
that doesn't grow very fast and a
huge demand a lot of the corruption.

431
00:32:25,400 --> 00:32:30,759
You know, it's kind of like
elephant tusks or or some other natural resource

432
00:32:30,920 --> 00:32:34,559
that can be exploited, poached and
sold. It becomes part of that that

433
00:32:35,000 --> 00:32:38,319
that sort of black market commerce.
That's why like this Ghana farm and other

434
00:32:38,400 --> 00:32:42,880
things like that are so incredibly important. Imagine if there was, you know,

435
00:32:43,440 --> 00:32:46,480
a preservation farm like the bulk African
trade things. Just for a minute

436
00:32:46,519 --> 00:32:54,440
to see if this is actually picks
up utigra formation. I think you so

437
00:32:54,559 --> 00:32:58,480
this is this is a guy thing. He's got a nice shirt on,

438
00:32:58,599 --> 00:33:01,079
he's very compell he works out,
this guy too. Yeah, and he's

439
00:33:01,119 --> 00:33:07,559
standing in front of probably six hundred
one gallon pots. If tabernathya boga.

440
00:33:08,720 --> 00:33:13,599
They got a nice impromptu shade structure
set up too, built out of palm

441
00:33:13,720 --> 00:33:16,039
front. Yeah, if it's the
same one I'm thinking of. They also

442
00:33:16,240 --> 00:33:27,880
use Volacama africana as a shade plant
growing up. That's so these are seedlings

443
00:33:30,000 --> 00:33:32,200
and like giant dog dishes that they're
transplanting. Yeah, yeah, so this

444
00:33:32,400 --> 00:33:35,960
plant, I mean, let's talk
about this, this plant about I mean

445
00:33:36,000 --> 00:33:39,119
the it's habit it's general habit as
a Oh that's cool. Damn. Oh.

446
00:33:39,160 --> 00:33:44,799
Look they're using like it's like clay
soil too. It's there's no prolite

447
00:33:44,839 --> 00:33:47,359
in there, none of it's fancy
stuff. The shit, No, it's

448
00:33:47,599 --> 00:33:52,000
it transplants very easily. If you
have a healthy seed you can get a

449
00:33:52,039 --> 00:33:53,759
healthy seedling. If you have a
healthy seedling, they transplant. But this

450
00:33:53,880 --> 00:33:58,640
is a very humid climate. This
is very humid at times above eighty degrees.

451
00:34:00,160 --> 00:34:01,960
This is not a plant that's prone
to drying out correct at all.

452
00:34:02,200 --> 00:34:05,480
So it's I mean, you could
tell it's got glabor sleeves. There's no

453
00:34:05,559 --> 00:34:07,599
hair on it. It's not a
very waxy plant. There are some pubescent

454
00:34:07,679 --> 00:34:12,880
forms, but not many. Pewbusiness
of course, would indicate adaptation to a

455
00:34:13,000 --> 00:34:16,760
dryer climate, or at least the
dryer, more dry Toolerafino type if it

456
00:34:16,840 --> 00:34:21,480
had a few busence. But this
is I mean, this is Actuatorial Africa.

457
00:34:21,519 --> 00:34:24,519
This is a jungle plant. This
is a generally understory plant or understory

458
00:34:24,559 --> 00:34:29,679
plant, a megatherm, you know, understory plant, which megatherm, and

459
00:34:29,760 --> 00:34:31,480
it likes it hot. It likes
it hot. So it's not even about

460
00:34:31,519 --> 00:34:36,599
frost tolerances. It's about it what
temperature does the metabolism just stop and the

461
00:34:36,679 --> 00:34:40,639
thing then becomes susceptible to fucking below
fifty degrees twice fun guy, right,

462
00:34:40,679 --> 00:34:45,400
So like below fifty it'll survive,
but it's not gonna grow. It's just

463
00:34:45,480 --> 00:34:49,519
gonna none. It becomes susceptible to
other shit. It's like an AIDS patient

464
00:34:49,960 --> 00:34:52,079
of a human kind of because if
you want to think of it in terms

465
00:34:52,119 --> 00:34:55,079
of like an immune system, right, yeah, it slows down to the

466
00:34:55,159 --> 00:34:59,400
point where, um, like you
say, you know, if some if

467
00:34:59,440 --> 00:35:04,039
if an abo a plant is in
a dormant stage, and for people outside

468
00:35:04,079 --> 00:35:07,519
of its native range that grow it
and let's say they need to move it

469
00:35:07,599 --> 00:35:13,480
inside over the winter, that kind
of becomes a de facto dormant period for

470
00:35:13,639 --> 00:35:19,559
the plant. So these are so
these are dried dormant plants too dry deciduous,

471
00:35:19,599 --> 00:35:22,400
so they will drop their leaves and
they're not dead, they're just dormant,

472
00:35:22,760 --> 00:35:25,119
right, Like many plants in tropical
it stresses them out. I mean

473
00:35:25,159 --> 00:35:30,639
it really stresses them out. And
so a plant that an aboga plant that

474
00:35:30,920 --> 00:35:34,480
has some woody structure, so a
couple of years old, a few years

475
00:35:34,519 --> 00:35:39,400
old, that plant is much more
likely to survive the cold dormant period.

476
00:35:39,519 --> 00:35:43,760
You know, there aren't that many
cold dormant periods or dried dormant periods in

477
00:35:43,840 --> 00:35:46,840
Ghana or sorry, Gabon and every
right, because it's not it's it's it's

478
00:35:46,880 --> 00:35:51,079
on the equator. It's not really
at the itcz where you know, like

479
00:35:51,320 --> 00:35:53,679
where I just was in Brazil,
you've got dry season. There's not really

480
00:35:53,719 --> 00:35:58,559
a dry season here, but it
can still go dormant. Yeah, So

481
00:35:58,719 --> 00:36:04,079
there is a bit of a built
in dormancy or a latency period that that

482
00:36:04,239 --> 00:36:07,679
you can see with growers, you
know in the US or other places where

483
00:36:08,360 --> 00:36:15,119
um, it's not equatorial Africa,
I mean it's um uh yeah, yeah,

484
00:36:15,320 --> 00:36:19,760
but the plant needs to have some
woody structure before it can survive that

485
00:36:20,039 --> 00:36:23,039
stressed period. But if it has
woody structures, if it's a couple of

486
00:36:23,119 --> 00:36:27,840
years old, uh, it will
go dry, dormant, just fine.

487
00:36:28,559 --> 00:36:30,960
The woody structure of course, acting
like a battery that it can just dive

488
00:36:31,039 --> 00:36:37,079
back to. No stomata, no
ability to transpire moisture. Correct, Maybe

489
00:36:37,119 --> 00:36:38,960
there's some stomata in this then maybe
I don't know. I don't know the

490
00:36:39,000 --> 00:36:44,840
physiology of a lot of a tropical
apostinaceous things. But uh, but either

491
00:36:44,920 --> 00:36:47,519
way, so this is a and
how big can this plant get? Uh,

492
00:36:47,880 --> 00:36:52,639
you know, uh, upwards twenty
five thirty feet? Oh wow,

493
00:36:52,880 --> 00:36:55,719
so it's like a medium size small, small to medium sized tree. Yeah,

494
00:36:55,760 --> 00:36:59,199
but you don't normally see that.
That would be you know, an

495
00:36:59,280 --> 00:37:02,559
upper range. And there's a lot
of variability in the plants in terms of

496
00:37:02,719 --> 00:37:07,000
you know, there's some that stay
really small and shrubby. Uh, some

497
00:37:07,320 --> 00:37:10,519
that get multi trunked, uh,
some that tend to have a one principle

498
00:37:10,960 --> 00:37:15,719
trunk structure. Uh. The ones
that have um one principal trunk, they

499
00:37:15,760 --> 00:37:20,519
will tend to get taller and form
a you know, a canopy. It

500
00:37:20,599 --> 00:37:23,960
around. In terms of phylogeny.
Do you know what genus is sister to

501
00:37:24,079 --> 00:37:30,400
it? Yeah, so um tabername
montana, uh, sort of a pantropical

502
00:37:30,239 --> 00:37:36,320
member of the same family. How
do you spell that tabe? Oh yeah,

503
00:37:36,480 --> 00:37:38,639
there you go, Tabername antana.
Really that's sister to it. Yeah.

504
00:37:38,719 --> 00:37:45,280
So in fact, there's there's uh, there's this botanical garden in the

505
00:37:45,400 --> 00:37:55,199
DRC Congo Kisantu Botanical Garden where they
have Um tabern at the elliptica and they

506
00:37:55,280 --> 00:38:01,280
also have tabernetea boga and um.
There was this this hybrid. A number

507
00:38:01,280 --> 00:38:06,440
of hybrids were formed between those two, so you had these interspecies hybrids.

508
00:38:06,480 --> 00:38:08,679
But they thought for a while and
it still might be the case that one

509
00:38:08,719 --> 00:38:15,800
of the tabername montanas that was near
it also there was a cross genus across

510
00:38:15,880 --> 00:38:22,079
genus, and so that would indicate
that there's you know, genetic closeness between

511
00:38:22,199 --> 00:38:27,000
there was hybridization between this genus and
yeah. I don't know that they've done

512
00:38:27,039 --> 00:38:31,000
actual analyzes of the genome for the
plant, but the plant, you know

513
00:38:31,039 --> 00:38:37,000
that the fruit morphology. Uh,
there's there's reason to believe that Tabera tabername

514
00:38:37,000 --> 00:38:42,960
montana crossed with the tabernanthe elliptic and
wow, this is obviously a moth pollinated

515
00:38:43,039 --> 00:38:46,920
flower, like a lot of apostinaceous
stuff that the tabername montana. Yeah yeah,

516
00:38:47,079 --> 00:38:51,320
look at that white flower with a
big tube, probably amidst a scent

517
00:38:51,599 --> 00:38:54,679
profile similar to a lot of moth
pollinated stuff. A lot of moth pollinated

518
00:38:54,719 --> 00:39:00,239
shit has that scent. I saw
a platantha yesterday, that orchid it was

519
00:39:00,280 --> 00:39:07,199
psychodes I think. In the Smoky
Mountains, there were so many fucking people

520
00:39:07,239 --> 00:39:08,519
there was insane. It felt like
a fuck. That's why I don't go

521
00:39:08,559 --> 00:39:10,880
to National Parks man. It's like, you know, you step off trail,

522
00:39:10,920 --> 00:39:15,159
there's less of them. But uh
but um, I'm all for it.

523
00:39:15,440 --> 00:39:19,039
I'm getting outside, but fuck,
I just wish there was more land

524
00:39:19,159 --> 00:39:22,199
so it wasn't so dense and a
few remaining crumbs of habitat left anyway,

525
00:39:22,519 --> 00:39:27,000
But but it's I noticed the smell
on that platantara too, was really it

526
00:39:27,159 --> 00:39:30,599
was like all all moth pollinated flowers
have this almost semi alcoholish scent to them.

527
00:39:30,639 --> 00:39:35,960
It's really cool. The night the
night blooming tobaccos, that turos bromanzi

528
00:39:36,199 --> 00:39:39,159
is the fucking mande villas that we
get which is this family of pasta and

529
00:39:39,199 --> 00:39:45,440
ac um. That's cool man is
uh is i boga moth pollinated. You

530
00:39:45,480 --> 00:39:50,119
know, um, what if flowers
look like they have that long tube.

531
00:39:51,199 --> 00:39:55,559
They are much smaller than this pinwheel
jasmine tabername montana type flowers, so same

532
00:39:55,679 --> 00:40:00,800
structure, but imagine it shrunk down
so so not as long as a too,

533
00:40:01,320 --> 00:40:05,320
No, I mean it's it's less
than a centimeter. Does anyone know

534
00:40:05,559 --> 00:40:09,639
of what specifically pollinism? They're probably
generalists or is people that grow them have

535
00:40:09,840 --> 00:40:17,159
reported that they've seen wasps, bees
various types pollinating them, yellow jackets,

536
00:40:17,239 --> 00:40:22,679
things of that nature in terms of
their their native range. I don't know

537
00:40:22,960 --> 00:40:25,039
with without that long tube, which
probably more of a generalist thing. Yeah,

538
00:40:25,079 --> 00:40:28,719
because they can actually it's not a
long tube, right, yeah,

539
00:40:28,880 --> 00:40:32,800
but it's also a very narrow opening. Really Okay, the stamens are included,

540
00:40:32,840 --> 00:40:37,719
like they're inside the Yeah. Yeah, I'm looking at the chemical profile

541
00:40:37,800 --> 00:40:44,960
for this tabernae. It's like katharantine, core cora, narratine, drag amine,

542
00:40:45,079 --> 00:40:47,800
I, bogamine, all these fucking
alkaloids. It's insane. Voa christine

543
00:40:49,320 --> 00:40:53,360
eyebo gain may occur in multiple multiple
tabourname montana species, but no one really

544
00:40:53,559 --> 00:41:00,400
Yeah, taber name Montana arborea in
fact, is being looked at by groups

545
00:41:00,320 --> 00:41:06,840
uh um that are trying to find
alternative sources for ibogaine to tabernan thing.

546
00:41:07,320 --> 00:41:15,280
So Taberna Montana arboreau in UH native
to coastal Mexico, Vera Cruz. Yeah,

547
00:41:15,960 --> 00:41:22,159
it has bacine, It has katharanthine. It has a number of the

548
00:41:22,280 --> 00:41:30,440
alkaloids that through decarboxylation can be chemically
converted very simple semisynthesis into the exact same

549
00:41:30,000 --> 00:41:37,519
uh compounds that are in aboga,
ibogain ebogaine have to be performed. How

550
00:41:37,559 --> 00:41:44,639
does that happen? Pretty easily?
Um so UM. There's this guy who's

551
00:41:44,719 --> 00:41:51,760
kind of a pioneer uh with um
ibogaine and eboga and boaconga extractions. His

552
00:41:51,920 --> 00:41:54,960
name is Chris Jenks. Is actually
one of the guys that kind of inspired

553
00:41:55,039 --> 00:42:00,360
me to start doing my work with
boa conga couple of years ago. UM.

554
00:42:00,719 --> 00:42:07,280
But Chris Jenks UH and in the
Global Eyebegame Therapy Alliance and some other

555
00:42:07,440 --> 00:42:13,599
groups of folks have come up with
pretty good and pretty simple protocols for the

556
00:42:13,800 --> 00:42:20,800
extraction of alkaloids from Voaconga other plants
that are in this family to get the

557
00:42:20,880 --> 00:42:27,960
precursors for the eyebo gain type alcosum. And essentially they're they're structurally they're they're

558
00:42:27,960 --> 00:42:34,599
all monopoint monoturpeine alkaloids. What does
that mean? Basically the plant? You

559
00:42:34,719 --> 00:42:37,800
know, lots of plants make tterpenes, right and so okay, metabolically and

560
00:42:38,000 --> 00:42:40,559
enzymatically, what does the plant do
with them? Lots of different things.

561
00:42:40,599 --> 00:42:44,840
They turn in all sorts of different
you know, compounds out of nitrogen here

562
00:42:44,880 --> 00:42:51,280
at a functional group there um,
the uh, the eboga alkaloids. Um,

563
00:42:51,840 --> 00:42:57,039
they are technically they're tripped to means
so that you know, they are

564
00:42:57,159 --> 00:43:06,199
in the same general family as LSD
and very generally you know, slocobin and

565
00:43:06,480 --> 00:43:08,119
you know, but you know they
they've got a benzine ring and an indole

566
00:43:08,199 --> 00:43:15,320
ring. But the eboga alkaloids are
much more complex and um as a result

567
00:43:15,480 --> 00:43:20,840
of what the eboga plant and the
voconga plant due to those terpenes that are

568
00:43:21,119 --> 00:43:23,679
produced and you know, the different
pathways that they go. So I could

569
00:43:23,679 --> 00:43:30,719
get these family trees, these family
trees so to speak of phytochemicals and the

570
00:43:31,079 --> 00:43:37,800
eboga type plants, they do all
sorts of crazy shit because they're incredibly complex

571
00:43:37,920 --> 00:43:40,840
molecules. Crazy things to human physiology
you're talking about are further really quick for

572
00:43:40,920 --> 00:43:45,559
the plant. These probably evolved this
antirevivory compounds or is there were protection against

573
00:43:45,719 --> 00:43:50,679
out of my heat or out of
my expertise, I really don't know.

574
00:43:50,800 --> 00:43:53,639
I couldn't say fascinating stuff regardless though. Yeah, I mean, the whole

575
00:43:53,719 --> 00:43:59,400
the whole family. Apostinacity is just
a fucking chemical. It's crazy. I

576
00:43:59,440 --> 00:44:00,800
mean, the stuff that this family
produces, and it's everywhere. I mean,

577
00:44:00,880 --> 00:44:06,239
it's it's pantropical. Oh yeah,
um so, So one of the

578
00:44:06,320 --> 00:44:12,159
compounds that's in that Taberna montana that
we were just looking at, kathyranthine um.

579
00:44:12,480 --> 00:44:16,039
It is also present in Cathyranthus rosa, Madagascar periwinkle. Okay, so

580
00:44:16,159 --> 00:44:22,000
Madagascar pi, which my daughter was
using because yes, Lukeima, she's doing

581
00:44:22,039 --> 00:44:25,000
well right now. But yeah,
best and Christine. Yes, So those

582
00:44:25,199 --> 00:44:30,800
are similar but of a different type
than the Eboga type alkaloids the Albergain type

583
00:44:30,800 --> 00:44:36,440
alkaloids, but they all have this
kind of same terpenoid monoterpenoid route um.

584
00:44:36,639 --> 00:44:42,039
But then the enzymatic path pathways will
create these different subfamilies that have different activities.

585
00:44:42,119 --> 00:44:49,239
So you've got anti cancer, anti
tumor. You have drugs that lots

586
00:44:49,280 --> 00:44:52,599
of heart, lots of heart metasur
because that's what this family makes. It

587
00:44:52,719 --> 00:44:57,159
makes heart the chemicals that really affect
the heart, right, but also that

588
00:44:57,280 --> 00:45:04,039
regulate um, blood sugar, that
regulate all sorts of metabolic processes um and

589
00:45:04,519 --> 00:45:08,519
uh So anyway, so the Madagascar
periwinkle, you know, creates all of

590
00:45:08,559 --> 00:45:14,280
these anti cancer drugs and whatnot,
but it also creates this precursor to ebogamine

591
00:45:14,920 --> 00:45:19,880
catheranthins, a precursor to that and
so um So we say precursor, we

592
00:45:20,000 --> 00:45:24,400
mean it's like a step in terms
of turning this component to the next one

593
00:45:24,719 --> 00:45:29,480
direct correct. Yeah, there's there's
a there's a little functional group. It's

594
00:45:29,519 --> 00:45:32,480
it's a it's a carboxyl group that
dangles off the end of the of the

595
00:45:32,599 --> 00:45:37,519
molecule. So the same way NDA
is a precursor to MDMA. Is that

596
00:45:37,639 --> 00:45:39,760
correct? Or am I talking to
my ass? I'm not a fucking chemist

597
00:45:39,800 --> 00:45:42,840
that you're not talking out of your
ass. I mean in terms of it

598
00:45:42,920 --> 00:45:45,639
being a precursor, yes, in
terms of what you do to the precursor

599
00:45:45,800 --> 00:45:51,199
chemically a little different. Um,
but you know, you're basically cleaving something

600
00:45:51,239 --> 00:45:54,239
as opposed to adding something to me. Uh so, yeah, I mean,

601
00:45:54,280 --> 00:45:58,360
it's one of the nice things about
all of these plants that are available

602
00:45:59,000 --> 00:46:06,159
that grow that are not iboga.
There are so many Taberna montanas, Voa

603
00:46:06,239 --> 00:46:13,760
Congas, catharanthus, different types of
plants in this family that produce the ibogaine

604
00:46:13,800 --> 00:46:19,280
skeleton. It's not ibogaine itself,
but they have the ibogain skeleton, and

605
00:46:19,800 --> 00:46:22,119
all you really have to do is
extract it. Now, you've got to

606
00:46:22,239 --> 00:46:27,599
separate that compound from all of the
other molecules that are in it, which

607
00:46:27,639 --> 00:46:31,079
are diverse and sundry, but it's
not that hard to do it. UM

608
00:46:31,440 --> 00:46:40,000
and then UM basically just yea for
Voacangain, for instance, is a genus

609
00:46:40,239 --> 00:46:46,519
correct bo Conga is a genus H. And then Voaconga africana is the species

610
00:46:46,840 --> 00:46:53,039
that has been used but pharmaceutical industry
for precursors for many many years, not

611
00:46:53,159 --> 00:46:58,840
just for ibogain development, but all
sorts of different drugs. But there's the

612
00:46:59,199 --> 00:47:06,880
dominant alko lloyd in. Volacoa africana
is a monotterpinoid alkaloid volacangine. And all

613
00:47:06,960 --> 00:47:12,159
you have to do is when you
isolate voacangine from the plant, is then

614
00:47:12,519 --> 00:47:15,159
cleave off that little carboxyl method,
you know, the carboxyl group from it,

615
00:47:15,199 --> 00:47:20,920
and then you've got ibogaine. It's
put it into a solution with some

616
00:47:21,000 --> 00:47:25,039
potassium hydroxide and reflex it for about
six hours. And is so tabername montana

617
00:47:25,239 --> 00:47:29,920
and tabernathy and Voa congre I'm looking
at a cladogram right here off phylogeny.

618
00:47:30,559 --> 00:47:36,000
These are all is Vola congress sister
at the tabernat So it's and then it's

619
00:47:36,039 --> 00:47:38,960
not as closely. My understanding is
it's not as close as tabername montana.

620
00:47:39,800 --> 00:47:44,320
Okay, because this is saying otherwise. But this is just I don't know

621
00:47:44,400 --> 00:47:46,559
if this is this might be something
different, This might be like a chemical

622
00:47:46,800 --> 00:47:52,280
cladogram. Okay. So we've we've
talked about a number of things except the

623
00:47:52,400 --> 00:47:59,840
history of illegality and also its effects
you know, at various doses. Is

624
00:47:59,880 --> 00:48:04,199
it's the plant that's used like is
it used in mild doses as a tea

625
00:48:04,440 --> 00:48:09,360
in peep by people in the area
or yeah it is so um uh,

626
00:48:09,719 --> 00:48:20,280
you know iboga is pretty well um
woven throughout the culture of the whet tea

627
00:48:20,440 --> 00:48:27,440
and other cultures in Central West Africa, and you know, kind of like

628
00:48:27,760 --> 00:48:34,679
with cultures that use mesculine containing cacti, it's not always used in a very

629
00:48:35,039 --> 00:48:38,519
large dose. In fact, it's
very rare that it's used in a large

630
00:48:38,599 --> 00:48:43,079
dose. Yeah. With I mean
with peyote, there's people that give their

631
00:48:43,159 --> 00:48:45,760
kids tea of it. I don't
know how you get a kid to drink

632
00:48:45,920 --> 00:48:47,480
that stuff. It's so bitter.
But I mean it's you know, and

633
00:48:47,719 --> 00:48:52,800
that's fine. It's generally a I
mean, it's my understanding is that is

634
00:48:52,840 --> 00:48:57,519
also the case with the ceremonial and
traditional use of iboga. Right Unlike iboga,

635
00:48:57,559 --> 00:49:01,679
though, mescalin is not really or
payotes and that really toxic at all,

636
00:49:01,800 --> 00:49:06,039
Like there's no right, yeah,
I mean, you know, if

637
00:49:06,079 --> 00:49:08,039
you get a whole bunch of isoquineline
alkaloids into a child, you know,

638
00:49:08,199 --> 00:49:12,800
sure that it could be a bad
thing, but in small doses, no,

639
00:49:13,000 --> 00:49:17,679
But there's there's similar dose responses to
eboga as well. Um, you

640
00:49:17,760 --> 00:49:21,880
know, so in terms of its
traditional use, you know, it's not

641
00:49:22,000 --> 00:49:25,639
something I've studied very closely, but
just from what I have seen, what

642
00:49:25,719 --> 00:49:30,800
I've heard, what I've read,
um, it seems pretty clear that it

643
00:49:30,039 --> 00:49:36,480
is used mostly in small to moderate
amounts throughout the course of somebody's life.

644
00:49:37,559 --> 00:49:38,760
And then the flood dose. I
mean, they don't even call it a

645
00:49:38,840 --> 00:49:42,880
flood dose. I mean that's a
that's a Western term, right, um

646
00:49:44,679 --> 00:49:47,000
or a description of something in a
Western way. I mean, there are

647
00:49:47,599 --> 00:49:52,800
um, you know, writes of
passage that involve you know, larger doses,

648
00:49:52,920 --> 00:49:55,000
but that seems to be the case
with all you know, plant medicines

649
00:49:55,079 --> 00:49:59,719
that have But there's a there's there's
a ceremonial use around this too. There's

650
00:49:59,719 --> 00:50:01,960
a whole ceremony associated with it being
buried in the ground. I mean,

651
00:50:02,000 --> 00:50:07,599
when when I did that podcast with
Hamilton, he was talking about experiencing it

652
00:50:07,760 --> 00:50:13,599
and witnessing it and having you know, he shared anecdotes of friends had beautiful

653
00:50:13,840 --> 00:50:20,280
and all encompassing, multisensory ceremonial experience. So let's talk about that. Let's

654
00:50:20,280 --> 00:50:22,400
talk about like a high dose of
this. First of what is a high

655
00:50:22,480 --> 00:50:25,480
dose too? I mean, well, I mean if in terms of actual

656
00:50:25,599 --> 00:50:30,440
root bark, like say someone's how
you know, over the course of a

657
00:50:30,559 --> 00:50:36,239
couple of days. You know,
many grams uh, you know, upwards

658
00:50:36,280 --> 00:50:39,320
of announce could be consumed even more, you know, I've never so that's

659
00:50:39,400 --> 00:50:45,480
like a niqual uh cap full of
it or what way more than that?

660
00:50:45,639 --> 00:50:50,199
I mean, you know, large
scoops of the pulverized root bark from what

661
00:50:50,280 --> 00:50:52,039
I can see. And it's only
the root bark, It's not the pith.

662
00:50:52,159 --> 00:50:58,519
It's not like the interior of the
root bark is is shaved off and

663
00:50:59,000 --> 00:51:02,320
then dried paul verized, And that's
traditionally. My understanding is things that's what

664
00:51:02,360 --> 00:51:08,119
it's given. I'm way more familiar
with the non traditional use of it,

665
00:51:08,239 --> 00:51:13,800
however, and so in terms of
these western I mean like clinic clinical use

666
00:51:13,920 --> 00:51:16,519
for addicts and PTSD, Yeah,
yeah, I mean that tends to be

667
00:51:16,639 --> 00:51:22,480
where the term flood doose comes in. And that could be hundreds of milligrams

668
00:51:22,639 --> 00:51:30,440
of pure eyebo gain upwards of a
full gram. So not root barker or

669
00:51:30,800 --> 00:51:32,360
what is it? No, I
mean, there's there are some clinics that

670
00:51:32,440 --> 00:51:37,599
are using uh root bark. You
would find root bark being used more at

671
00:51:37,679 --> 00:51:43,760
ceremonial retreat centers, these other so
these other cases are extractions they're extracting.

672
00:51:44,599 --> 00:51:50,760
Well yeah, um and uh.
It used to be that ibagain was extracted

673
00:51:50,840 --> 00:51:53,559
from tabernanthe root bark. But because
of the work of Chris Jenks and and

674
00:51:53,880 --> 00:52:01,400
other you know, people who've pioneered
looking at voaconga and other plants as the

675
00:52:01,639 --> 00:52:09,000
source for the ibogain skeleton, now
hopefully most I hear that it's most,

676
00:52:09,079 --> 00:52:12,599
but I don't know if that's true. But but hopefully most of the pure

677
00:52:12,639 --> 00:52:21,880
ibogain hydrochloride that's being given at these
clinics is extracted as voacangine from Voaconga africana,

678
00:52:22,840 --> 00:52:29,000
the plant converted into eyebogain and then
is sent to the clinics to be

679
00:52:29,119 --> 00:52:31,480
used. Does that make it safer
and so all these other alkaloids that occur

680
00:52:31,559 --> 00:52:35,159
in the route are not being used? See? Or does that alter the

681
00:52:35,199 --> 00:52:37,119
effect at all? Or what?
It definitely alters the effect. It's safer

682
00:52:37,199 --> 00:52:42,000
in the sense that there's a known
quantity of a drug that's being administered.

683
00:52:42,360 --> 00:52:45,440
You know, with history of dose
response curves that have been recorded, you

684
00:52:45,519 --> 00:52:51,400
know, you kind of know physiologically
what's going to happen when you have a

685
00:52:52,480 --> 00:52:58,760
pure alkaloid as opposed to a full
spectrum plant material that's being administered, right,

686
00:52:58,800 --> 00:53:01,159
And of course there's you know,
hypic differences too among individual plants in

687
00:53:01,280 --> 00:53:05,199
terms of how less they produced,
oh yeah yeah, but in terms of

688
00:53:05,440 --> 00:53:10,599
other ways in the in the non
traditional use of these medicines, ibogain in

689
00:53:10,679 --> 00:53:17,039
particular, Um, there's a group
ice Ears and also a group historically that's

690
00:53:17,039 --> 00:53:21,039
been around called the Global Ibogaine Therapy
Aligned. What is ice tears? How

691
00:53:21,039 --> 00:53:22,719
do you spell it? I It's
it's an acronym, I forget what for

692
00:53:23,199 --> 00:53:29,920
ic E E R s M.
They've given a lot of recommendations for cultural

693
00:53:30,119 --> 00:53:36,119
and environmental preservation of of of plant
medicines. Iowaka. So when did I

694
00:53:36,239 --> 00:53:38,599
boga? When did it start?
When did it pop up on the radar

695
00:53:38,679 --> 00:53:43,039
of people in the United States?
When we did pop up unfortunately, right

696
00:53:43,079 --> 00:53:49,199
around the time that the Drug Enforcement
Administration was was being created. Uh you

697
00:53:49,280 --> 00:53:52,800
know, bet you know, when
you know Nixon and the anti drug laws,

698
00:53:53,159 --> 00:53:58,079
Uh, you know, or in
nineteen seventy one, unfortunately ibogain came

699
00:53:58,119 --> 00:54:04,360
across. Unfortunately, but I beg
and was in the underground because of the

700
00:54:04,440 --> 00:54:13,840
work of Howard Lotsof who uh kind
of accidentally discovered the addiction mitigating qualities of

701
00:54:13,960 --> 00:54:17,880
eible gain. So was it being
used primarily in like a clinical sense or

702
00:54:19,119 --> 00:54:22,639
was that time or was it being
used recreationally. It was just a novelty.

703
00:54:23,239 --> 00:54:27,840
It was something that a few people
in New York had access to.

704
00:54:28,760 --> 00:54:35,280
And from my understanding of it,
this is sixties or yeah, middle late

705
00:54:35,400 --> 00:54:42,320
sixties. And yeah, so Howard
Lotsof he was. He was kind of

706
00:54:42,360 --> 00:54:46,519
the the person who first brought these
anti addictive properties of eible gain to light

707
00:54:47,280 --> 00:54:54,599
Um and then became a researcher in
and educator. And was he added himself

708
00:54:54,719 --> 00:54:59,079
or what? Yeah, yeah,
he was. And so he discovered that

709
00:54:59,239 --> 00:55:05,000
on you know, he took a
dose of Ibogainuh, had a very peculiar

710
00:55:05,079 --> 00:55:10,199
experience, But then he was an
active opioid addict at the time. UH.

711
00:55:10,320 --> 00:55:14,760
And then when he came down from
the ibogain experience, noticed that he

712
00:55:14,840 --> 00:55:20,280
had no craving for heroin and I
thought that was rather remarkable and then wanted

713
00:55:20,320 --> 00:55:23,400
to explore that more. And so
that's that's kind of how it got its

714
00:55:24,199 --> 00:55:30,119
its beginning in western addiction treatment.
Yeah, how do you spell this guy's

715
00:55:30,159 --> 00:55:35,400
last name? L? O T
S O f F. I think it's

716
00:55:35,440 --> 00:55:38,280
one people want to read more about. In fact, so he wrote a

717
00:55:38,400 --> 00:55:45,480
ton. He was he was a
very prolific researcher, wrote a ton about

718
00:55:45,599 --> 00:55:50,920
his discoveries. And right now the
archives of his writings and research are at

719
00:55:51,039 --> 00:55:54,280
Purdue University, and they are available
for researchers to go back and look at,

720
00:55:54,360 --> 00:56:02,920
and for for people who want to
see the process of somebody discovering a

721
00:56:04,039 --> 00:56:09,480
compound that had no usage in western
medicine and then but also discovering an incredible

722
00:56:09,519 --> 00:56:17,079
application for it and then devoting their
lives to it. The archive of Howard

723
00:56:17,159 --> 00:56:22,480
Lotsoft's papers holds incredible value for people
who wanted so he so he started sharing

724
00:56:22,559 --> 00:56:25,159
this with other addicts who wanted to
get clean primarily, and it was just

725
00:56:25,400 --> 00:56:29,119
that, I mean it was it
was he sharing it with people who just

726
00:56:29,199 --> 00:56:31,199
wanted like a crazy trip with hippies
that just wanted I mean, was there,

727
00:56:32,159 --> 00:56:37,679
you know, the recreational use,
because it doesn't seem and I'm not

728
00:56:37,719 --> 00:56:38,880
trying to knock it at all,
but it doesn't seem you know, for

729
00:56:39,079 --> 00:56:44,719
like recreational drug users, you know, who just want a crazy second trip.

730
00:56:44,760 --> 00:56:46,960
It doesn't seem. It's like the
go to. This seems like something

731
00:56:47,039 --> 00:56:51,400
that you use in extreme cases,
like when you've got a crippling heroin addiction

732
00:56:51,519 --> 00:56:54,360
or you can't sleep at night from
war trauma. In load to moderate doses,

733
00:56:54,480 --> 00:57:00,760
it is very pleasant, But what's
the load to moderate dose? So

734
00:57:01,079 --> 00:57:09,119
some of the underground psychotherapists that we're
working with MBMA for instance, uh Leo

735
00:57:09,280 --> 00:57:12,559
zep, you know, the Secret
Chief and a lot a lot of the

736
00:57:13,239 --> 00:57:17,400
groups that kind of led to what
MAPS is now today. Um, they

737
00:57:17,519 --> 00:57:24,199
were using ibogain in doses one hundred
and fifty two hundred milligram range if I

738
00:57:24,280 --> 00:57:30,639
remember correctly, which is definitely a
perceptible dose. It's not psychedelics like an

739
00:57:30,719 --> 00:57:34,920
MDMA dose. Uh yeah, yeah, it's pretty close in terms of the

740
00:57:35,159 --> 00:57:38,559
actual milligrams that were used and in
it that because this is a known cardi

741
00:57:38,840 --> 00:57:44,239
potential potentially dangerous psychedelic too, but
at that dose it's not very dangerous.

742
00:57:44,280 --> 00:57:45,679
Would you say, well, well, people using it in that dose,

743
00:57:45,840 --> 00:57:51,639
we're not having cardiac issues. And
this is pure ebo gain extracted ibogain or

744
00:57:51,800 --> 00:57:58,440
room bark. This was uh,
it's written about in that book The Secret

745
00:57:58,519 --> 00:58:06,840
Chief, and it was pure eyebo
gain that was extracted from iboga. I

746
00:58:07,000 --> 00:58:10,880
believe that it's probably the only and
they were using this in psychotherapy like the

747
00:58:10,960 --> 00:58:15,440
same way people were using MDMA or
yep UCB or anything. Well, yeah,

748
00:58:15,440 --> 00:58:20,280
I don't think they were using two
CB at least not um Leo Zef's

749
00:58:20,320 --> 00:58:27,599
group. Um, but MDMA,
MDA ibogain they were using me I think,

750
00:58:27,639 --> 00:58:30,000
and that kind of does. How
long would it lasts? I mean

751
00:58:30,320 --> 00:58:32,599
six to eight hours longer? I
mean, it still is a pretty long

752
00:58:32,719 --> 00:58:37,719
half life. So ibogain itself does
not have a really long half life.

753
00:58:37,719 --> 00:58:40,719
It doesn't take long for it to
be metabolized in the body, but it's

754
00:58:40,800 --> 00:58:46,599
metabolized into another compound called nor ibogain, which is still active still yeah,

755
00:58:46,800 --> 00:58:52,400
and has a very long half life. Um so uh you know, um,

756
00:58:52,880 --> 00:59:00,440
with a flood dose, the palpable
effects of nor ebugain last for thirty

757
00:59:00,480 --> 00:59:05,280
six hours sometimes Jesus Christ, Yeah, depending upon how much has been redosed

758
00:59:05,360 --> 00:59:07,639
by the individuals. And of course
if that was clinically administered, you'd need

759
00:59:07,800 --> 00:59:12,960
a specialist there, you need a
EKG machine. Floods. I mean,

760
00:59:13,039 --> 00:59:15,159
this is yeah, fuck around with
this, This is a you do not

761
00:59:15,280 --> 00:59:20,400
fuck around with it with a flood
dose, right, not at all.

762
00:59:20,519 --> 00:59:23,480
No, Um, you know the
stuff they're writing about in the secret Chief

763
00:59:23,559 --> 00:59:27,400
Leo Zess work, They were not
doing flood doses. I mean, like

764
00:59:27,480 --> 00:59:30,239
I said, it was one hundred
and fifty ish milligrams, kind of like

765
00:59:30,320 --> 00:59:37,840
a psycholytic dose. It had benefit
for psychoanalysis, and so someone would of

766
00:59:37,960 --> 00:59:45,960
course the psychologists or psychiatrists is sitting
there sober and just seeing just talking this

767
00:59:45,119 --> 00:59:47,719
person through, taking notes. Yeah. They did a lot of group therapy

768
00:59:47,760 --> 00:59:52,639
too, Yeah, groups like a
group and then there'd be someone heading the

769
00:59:52,719 --> 00:59:57,039
group who's not on it, Yeah, or when everyone was familiar with it.

770
00:59:57,639 --> 01:00:02,079
Sometimes it was the whole group.
But in these doses, at least

771
01:00:02,119 --> 01:00:07,320
with ibogain, you're not seeing the
cardiac toxicity issues. You're not seeing the

772
01:00:07,400 --> 01:00:12,199
cerebellar toxicity issues. You're not seeing
people go in like having tremors, no

773
01:00:12,360 --> 01:00:19,280
reported issues of cardio toxicity, no, none, none, acute cardio toxicity.

774
01:00:19,360 --> 01:00:22,760
But that that changes when you get
into flood dose, and it probably

775
01:00:22,840 --> 01:00:25,280
changes if someone has a history of
a rhythmia or other heard issues. Sure.

776
01:00:25,440 --> 01:00:30,039
Yeah, So in terms of the
clinical use of ibogain today, you

777
01:00:30,159 --> 01:00:36,280
know, the popularized narrative is that
it is an anti addiction drug that helps

778
01:00:36,320 --> 01:00:42,840
people who have an addictions as bad
as intravenous opiate use. Right well,

779
01:00:42,920 --> 01:00:45,960
in terms of people who are going
to have heard issues, people who are

780
01:00:46,000 --> 01:00:52,800
intravenous drug users are very likely to
have hard issues. Myocardial disease. Why

781
01:00:52,000 --> 01:00:58,519
is that from just injecting drugs directly
into your bloodstream? From bacterial contamination above

782
01:00:59,039 --> 01:01:01,320
all of the above, Know,
a guy who died from a fucking bacterial

783
01:01:01,360 --> 01:01:07,199
infection from shooting heroin is fucking terrible. Man, It is a terrible I

784
01:01:07,280 --> 01:01:12,280
have never had any compulsion to try
it, and I don't just I don't

785
01:01:12,320 --> 01:01:15,159
like opioids at all, even when
they gave me like delauted from my shoulder,

786
01:01:15,199 --> 01:01:19,599
which just made me al dope of
you know. But the problem,

787
01:01:19,639 --> 01:01:22,440
I mean, the problem is for
some people it just feels like home.

788
01:01:22,599 --> 01:01:24,719
Oh yeah, there's some people that
are just I remember a friend once time

789
01:01:24,719 --> 01:01:28,119
me you'd really like heroin, and
I was like, I'm you know what,

790
01:01:28,239 --> 01:01:30,880
I'm okay. It was like twenty
years ago. I'm like, man,

791
01:01:30,039 --> 01:01:34,039
fuck fuck off, you know,
a good friend. But still,

792
01:01:34,079 --> 01:01:37,519
I mean, there's some people that
it really plugs in right, and it

793
01:01:37,760 --> 01:01:39,800
and especially if there's a lot of
dark shit in the world that you're dealing

794
01:01:39,840 --> 01:01:43,119
with, and there's a lot of
dark shit, especially in this country.

795
01:01:43,519 --> 01:01:45,599
I don't have healthcare where people are
you know, the fucking wages suck,

796
01:01:46,800 --> 01:01:52,960
middle classes eroding. Yeah, you
know, society can just feel like it's

797
01:01:52,039 --> 01:01:55,800
full of assholes and just just totally
you know, I mean, the personal

798
01:01:55,880 --> 01:02:00,360
injury attorney and the fucking used car
salesmen are so a good analogy for so

799
01:02:00,639 --> 01:02:07,239
many traits. Yeah, but that, yeah, you're absolutely right, And

800
01:02:07,360 --> 01:02:12,800
it feels isolating and alienating and depressing. And that is why many people who

801
01:02:13,039 --> 01:02:16,880
suffer from substance use disorder, why
they do it. It's because everything is

802
01:02:16,960 --> 01:02:21,159
sick. Another friend too, Yeah, I mean, it's it's a cultural

803
01:02:21,239 --> 01:02:24,559
stigmas. It doesn't take I mean
I go to other countries and I despite

804
01:02:24,599 --> 01:02:30,599
the flaws they have there, I
don't see the level of sickness culturally that

805
01:02:30,719 --> 01:02:34,800
we have in the United States.
And this is a result of forty plus

806
01:02:34,920 --> 01:02:38,400
fifty plus years of this ship at
least, you know, that's a whole

807
01:02:38,480 --> 01:02:43,480
other argument. But you know,
but addiction in late stage capitalism or type

808
01:02:43,519 --> 01:02:52,480
of I mean peas and carrots Man
right right for real? Um, it's

809
01:02:52,559 --> 01:02:54,920
yeah, it's like a dystopic sci
fi novel. That's what the fucking that's

810
01:02:54,960 --> 01:02:59,119
what we're living in now is like
a dystopic sci fi novel. At least

811
01:02:59,119 --> 01:03:05,239
the United States. Well, civilizations
in decline historically have had issues with substance

812
01:03:05,480 --> 01:03:09,199
use disorder. I remember listening to
it talk that Terrence McKenna gave. It

813
01:03:09,280 --> 01:03:13,599
was a recording of the talk that
he was doing at the Esselent Institute back

814
01:03:13,639 --> 01:03:19,159
in the eighties, and um,
you know, he was talking about Mesopotamian

815
01:03:19,239 --> 01:03:28,440
cultures that were in decline, and
there were records that opium use skyrocketed in

816
01:03:28,599 --> 01:03:35,159
cultures that were on the decline,
that were falling apart. And I mean,

817
01:03:35,199 --> 01:03:37,639
it makes sense, it makes perfect. It's if it's if I was

818
01:03:37,920 --> 01:03:39,360
to write a book about what it
would be like, that's what I would

819
01:03:39,400 --> 01:03:43,639
have. That would be one of
the things I've noted to include in the

820
01:03:43,760 --> 01:03:47,119
story. And I was like mass
mass escapism via narcotics. But I mean,

821
01:03:47,159 --> 01:03:52,119
I you know, especially the ship
with Fendille, I mean everywhere I

822
01:03:52,199 --> 01:03:54,840
had a friend and another friend of
mine died. He was a super talented

823
01:03:54,960 --> 01:03:59,760
artist, and it's sad because he
he'd messaged me he knew I was sober.

824
01:03:59,840 --> 01:04:02,039
Need messaged me too months before he
died too, and he was like,

825
01:04:02,119 --> 01:04:04,960
I'm sober now I'm And I was
like, oh God, are you

826
01:04:05,039 --> 01:04:08,280
going to you work on the steps? Are you're going to the program?

827
01:04:08,480 --> 01:04:10,960
No? And good luck man,
And that's what I was thinking, you

828
01:04:11,000 --> 01:04:13,039
know, I'm like, fuck,
yeah, yeah, right, you know,

829
01:04:13,079 --> 01:04:15,920
because this guy just he would just
fucking drink. But he never did

830
01:04:15,039 --> 01:04:17,960
heroin. He never did. He
hated heroin, he hated you know,

831
01:04:18,000 --> 01:04:20,440
but he would do blow every once
in a while and he would drink like

832
01:04:20,559 --> 01:04:26,760
hell and um and it was amazing
too because he could still paint and draw

833
01:04:26,920 --> 01:04:29,599
and it was super fun to hang
out with, you know. Um,

834
01:04:30,000 --> 01:04:31,400
it's a really good attitude. But
then yeah, he just he did he

835
01:04:31,599 --> 01:04:33,719
was fucking doing blow. I don't
know. I don't know what happened.

836
01:04:33,719 --> 01:04:35,960
He did blow one night and it
had fan in it. A bunch of

837
01:04:35,960 --> 01:04:41,000
people died in San Francisco that weekend
and he was one of them. And

838
01:04:41,079 --> 01:04:43,320
it was just such a mind fucking
I'm like, God, this shit is

839
01:04:43,400 --> 01:04:46,280
just everywhere. It's terrible, well
it is, and it is cut into

840
01:04:46,440 --> 01:04:49,280
so many different drugs of abuse.
I mean when I mean when I was

841
01:04:49,320 --> 01:04:54,920
working at the hospital, you know
for the past ten years. You know,

842
01:04:55,559 --> 01:05:00,599
a lot of my patients were there
with brain injuries or other types of

843
01:05:00,639 --> 01:05:04,360
injuries as a result of substance use. And um, you know we could

844
01:05:04,360 --> 01:05:10,320
tell when you know, we get
a rash of people in with overdoses,

845
01:05:10,360 --> 01:05:15,239
but they were cocaine users, and
um, you know, by the second

846
01:05:15,320 --> 01:05:17,079
or third patient, we were like, oh, somebody's cutting the coke with

847
01:05:17,119 --> 01:05:23,760
fentanyl or wait you so you you're
saying you would see neurological traits among people

848
01:05:23,880 --> 01:05:28,960
that were consistent with cocaine use or
what consistent consistent with heavy cocaine use.

849
01:05:29,800 --> 01:05:33,199
Oh yes, when a funk are
people putting fentanyl? And why are people

850
01:05:33,199 --> 01:05:38,719
putting downers in an upper well,
because it's not a downer, it's it's

851
01:05:38,719 --> 01:05:44,159
an opioid, and um right,
I mean I wouldn't well, but specifically

852
01:05:44,280 --> 01:05:48,960
so so, fentanyl is very good
at creating eu fourient effect and then it

853
01:05:49,079 --> 01:05:51,519
has a very short half life.
But it just puts you to sleep,

854
01:05:51,559 --> 01:05:55,239
doesn't it. I mean it makes
you a fucking not have you doing coke

855
01:05:55,320 --> 01:05:58,599
with it? You know? But
also it has a very short half life.

856
01:05:58,639 --> 01:06:03,920
So if somebody is looking to um, be a very productive drug dealer

857
01:06:04,320 --> 01:06:09,079
with lots of return customers. Uh. And if cocaine's not doing it for

858
01:06:09,239 --> 01:06:13,039
you, adding fentanyl to the cocaine, let's say it's not very good cocaine.

859
01:06:13,159 --> 01:06:17,519
That so they're setting it in there
for addictive qualities and euphoria effects and

860
01:06:18,880 --> 01:06:24,239
just measuring it. Yeah. I
mean, you've got people of various skill

861
01:06:24,320 --> 01:06:30,039
sets who are that's a nice way
to put it, like, got a

862
01:06:30,119 --> 01:06:33,320
high school education at best. It's
yeah. And when you got something where

863
01:06:33,440 --> 01:06:38,119
like you know, the dose response
curve is in the microgram range, you

864
01:06:38,199 --> 01:06:42,000
know, and you got somebody who's
a dumbast, So a highly potent synthetic

865
01:06:42,079 --> 01:06:47,239
drug is just Jesus Christ. I
mean yeah yeah, so um yeah,

866
01:06:47,280 --> 01:06:50,519
I mean And in terms of kind
of bring it back to Eybogain a little

867
01:06:50,519 --> 01:06:56,280
bit here, yeah, Um.
In terms of clinics now, addiction treatment

868
01:06:56,320 --> 01:07:00,800
clinics that are using eyebo gain,
Um, there are different protocols for dealing

869
01:07:00,880 --> 01:07:08,119
with people who are fentanyl addicted versus
heroin addicted or prescription pill addicted that are

870
01:07:08,199 --> 01:07:12,280
non Fentanylum. And that has to
do with you know, the just the

871
01:07:12,360 --> 01:07:15,559
intensity of the drug, the short
duration of the drug. I mean there

872
01:07:15,840 --> 01:07:20,400
there has to be like a a
process of weaning away before you can even

873
01:07:20,519 --> 01:07:25,599
get to the eyebo game, you
know. For safety for the individual,

874
01:07:26,079 --> 01:07:30,000
it's it's it's a longer road to
get clean, you know, for somebody

875
01:07:30,000 --> 01:07:33,320
who's addicted defentanyl specifically, because the
process of disentangling is so hard. Yeah,

876
01:07:33,360 --> 01:07:36,440
so what so what what what are
the processes then? For what's what's

877
01:07:36,480 --> 01:07:41,760
the process for someone that you know
says addicted the heroine or to opiates and

878
01:07:42,360 --> 01:07:45,400
and wants to get clean and wants
to go this route, I mean,

879
01:07:45,639 --> 01:07:49,480
how would they Ideally they would be
working with a mental health and addiction specialist

880
01:07:50,360 --> 01:07:56,480
who um is able to do health
screening. And are there clinics that offer

881
01:07:56,519 --> 01:07:59,519
this in Costa Rica and Mexico.
Well, yeah, this this is something

882
01:07:59,599 --> 01:08:02,320
that let's say somebody who's traveling to
Costa Rica Mexico, they would need to

883
01:08:02,360 --> 01:08:09,840
initiate this for safety months in advance
and wherever they live. So there's a

884
01:08:09,880 --> 01:08:14,079
lot of intention Here's it's not just
buy a plane ticket and go get fixed.

885
01:08:15,400 --> 01:08:19,239
How do people find reputable clinics too? Well? Um, it's hard,

886
01:08:19,680 --> 01:08:27,199
It's really hard. There are groups
of academics that are currently doing studies

887
01:08:27,239 --> 01:08:32,079
of the various clinics in Mexico and
in Costa Rica. A friend of mine,

888
01:08:33,680 --> 01:08:41,079
Raphael Lancy Lada, they are doing
studies of abogin clinics in Mexico specifically,

889
01:08:41,159 --> 01:08:44,840
and for this very reason. I
mean looking at, Okay, what's

890
01:08:44,880 --> 01:08:49,119
the safety, what's the efficacy,
what are the processes from a from a

891
01:08:49,560 --> 01:08:54,840
health public health point of view,
who's doing it properly? And so these

892
01:08:54,840 --> 01:08:59,319
studies are just really kind of starting. It's been a wild West, so

893
01:08:59,479 --> 01:09:06,600
to speak. And Um, but
the icars Ic e r S that website

894
01:09:06,640 --> 01:09:13,720
gives a lot of very good recommendations
for somebody who's trying to pick an ibogain

895
01:09:13,760 --> 01:09:15,479
clinic, Like what do you need
to be thinking about in terms of safety?

896
01:09:15,560 --> 01:09:19,720
Do they have a physician on staff
on site? Why are you going?

897
01:09:19,840 --> 01:09:23,600
Is it for addiction treatment or is
it for you know, psycho?

898
01:09:23,680 --> 01:09:27,960
I think having a physician on site
would be for an addiction really first,

899
01:09:28,319 --> 01:09:31,680
Yeah, would be like first and
foremost, you know, like, is

900
01:09:31,720 --> 01:09:34,920
it like some backcountry clinic where they're
just like, yeah, we'll strap you

901
01:09:35,039 --> 01:09:38,960
down for two days and give you
this stuff or is it you know,

902
01:09:39,840 --> 01:09:43,960
you want people that really genuinely seem
to give a fuck and want to help

903
01:09:44,039 --> 01:09:46,479
and have probably done it themselves.
And when it comes to Ibogain, you

904
01:09:46,600 --> 01:09:50,880
know, I would say that more
and more of these places are reputable.

905
01:09:50,920 --> 01:09:57,600
I know that more and more of
these places are doing the ethical thing in

906
01:09:57,720 --> 01:10:00,039
terms of sourcing their eyebo gain from
boaconga. Uh. You know, so

907
01:10:00,199 --> 01:10:03,279
you kind of look at like the
ethics as like a spectrum, right,

908
01:10:03,520 --> 01:10:08,079
it's not just like the medical ethics, it's exceedingly important, but also the

909
01:10:08,119 --> 01:10:14,079
sustainability ethics. Uh, because of
a conga is more common and grows faster,

910
01:10:14,279 --> 01:10:18,399
and more common grows faster. So
it's like extracting from San Pedro versus

911
01:10:18,680 --> 01:10:23,920
from Peyote for mescalin for like a
mascalin. It's it's it's a similar,

912
01:10:24,720 --> 01:10:28,840
similar comparison. It would be like
if San Pedro produced large amounts of this

913
01:10:29,039 --> 01:10:32,680
molecule that you could easily then convert
into mescalind but San Pedro produces a ship

914
01:10:32,760 --> 01:10:39,239
ton of escalind um. So very
very similar a little bit. Yeah,

915
01:10:39,479 --> 01:10:44,680
yeah, So so these clinics,
so what what is the once you're admitted

916
01:10:45,159 --> 01:10:47,119
and what is the process them,
like, I mean, how long does

917
01:10:47,159 --> 01:10:49,680
it take? Is it three?
I would they tell you not the They

918
01:10:49,760 --> 01:10:55,319
make sure that you haven't used in
a while, They make sure that you

919
01:10:55,399 --> 01:10:59,560
have to fast. I presume to
say, you're how long can you expect

920
01:10:59,600 --> 01:11:00,640
to be in there? How does
how does it work? Yeah, so

921
01:11:00,960 --> 01:11:06,800
responsible clinic that's that's behaving ethically and
has their patient's best interest in mind,

922
01:11:08,439 --> 01:11:14,520
they would do a screening process before
the administration of the ibogain, So somebody

923
01:11:14,800 --> 01:11:19,720
arrives there would be EKG at the
very least, you know, hopefully someone

924
01:11:19,920 --> 01:11:24,199
would be wearing a heart monitor for
the duration of a twenty four hour period

925
01:11:24,279 --> 01:11:28,680
or more, just to see if
there are rhythmias that pop up that aren't

926
01:11:29,000 --> 01:11:32,960
persistent, you know, but sort
of like elusive um. And during that

927
01:11:33,119 --> 01:11:40,159
time period, the person would be
abstaining from the use of opiates under supervision

928
01:11:41,000 --> 01:11:45,720
and they'd be tested to make sure
at an ethically and safe, safely run

929
01:11:45,840 --> 01:11:49,640
clinic. Yes, because if you're
still using opiates while taking this, that

930
01:11:49,840 --> 01:11:54,760
can lead to big issues. Absolutely. Yeah. I mean one of the

931
01:11:54,880 --> 01:12:00,239
things that ibogain does is it changes
the way that the receptors work. That

932
01:12:00,359 --> 01:12:06,760
are receiving the opiates and so um, yeah, I mean a dose of

933
01:12:08,159 --> 01:12:14,000
heroine that somebody is used to if
they sneak off and take you know,

934
01:12:15,079 --> 01:12:20,600
right before or after a long ibogaine
session, those receptors and the physiological processes

935
01:12:20,600 --> 01:12:26,479
that are going on, I mean, the body's reaction to that familiar dose

936
01:12:26,520 --> 01:12:30,399
will be unfamiliar and deadly. So
at all, it's basically like an overload.

937
01:12:30,560 --> 01:12:34,680
Yeah. Yeah, so oding is
a lot more likely if you're using

938
01:12:34,760 --> 01:12:39,079
ibogaine at the same time you're using
Yeah. And in fact, there's some

939
01:12:39,239 --> 01:12:47,920
there's some shady shit that some some
people who abuse use opiates will stretch their

940
01:12:48,000 --> 01:12:53,239
heroine by adding ibogaine to it.
This is not a common practice, Jesus

941
01:12:53,359 --> 01:12:56,239
Christ. I've heard of it.
Yeah, it's not common. This is

942
01:12:56,279 --> 01:13:00,920
not something that because hybogaine is not
cheap um or readily available. But um

943
01:13:01,680 --> 01:13:05,399
yeah, I mean just to speak
to the effect of Bible gain in terms

944
01:13:05,399 --> 01:13:11,039
of the metabolism of opiates, Yeah, it changes it. Okay. So,

945
01:13:11,279 --> 01:13:15,319
so someone's clean and they go in
and they're they're admitted to this program,

946
01:13:15,439 --> 01:13:20,319
and then what happens they're given a
U a test dose. Um,

947
01:13:20,600 --> 01:13:25,079
some people call it like an allergy
test or basically just kind of under medical

948
01:13:25,119 --> 01:13:29,800
supervision to see if a small dose
a bible gain is well tolerated by the

949
01:13:29,840 --> 01:13:34,600
patient. If it is, and
if the patient seems like they're stable psychologically

950
01:13:34,720 --> 01:13:41,159
and medically, um, they will
then be administered a flood dose, which

951
01:13:41,199 --> 01:13:45,000
a small dose I don't know specifically, it would probably be less than one

952
01:13:45,079 --> 01:13:50,359
hundred and fifty milligrams that we're using
in terms of psycho psychotherapy, okay,

953
01:13:51,279 --> 01:13:57,279
um, and but but noticeable,
you know, it would have to be

954
01:13:57,319 --> 01:14:01,439
big enough to where some response occur. Yeah, um, and uh yeah,

955
01:14:01,439 --> 01:14:04,319
and then and then the flood dose
is administered after you know, the

956
01:14:04,439 --> 01:14:09,079
patient seems stable. And how much
is that? How much is a flood

957
01:14:09,159 --> 01:14:12,439
dose of eyebo gain too? You
know, it's it's it's usually done on

958
01:14:12,520 --> 01:14:16,439
a milligrams per kilogram of body weight
kind of thing. But you know,

959
01:14:17,399 --> 01:14:23,520
uh, several hundred milligrams oh wow, yeah. Um, you know it's

960
01:14:23,680 --> 01:14:27,119
uh, it takes a lot of
the drug to have the full effects,

961
01:14:27,680 --> 01:14:30,439
kind of like mescaline mescalind it takes
a lot of mescaline to have a full

962
01:14:30,520 --> 01:14:35,800
mescaline experience. Um, the same
is true with with eyebo gain and so

963
01:14:35,920 --> 01:14:41,000
then what what experiences are felt and
how long does it last? Um,

964
01:14:41,680 --> 01:14:45,880
So from one dose that's administered,
um, it would be in the neighborhood

965
01:14:46,239 --> 01:14:49,760
of you know, twelve you know, because of the nor eybergain is in

966
01:14:49,760 --> 01:14:54,720
the system very very long time,
twelve hours or more depending upon the person's

967
01:14:54,760 --> 01:14:58,960
response to it or how large of
a dose is administered. And the clinics

968
01:14:59,000 --> 01:15:04,399
they're not readministered ring like in a
ceremonial setting where it's continually ingested um and

969
01:15:04,840 --> 01:15:13,840
uh um, and during that time
period the effects are varied. Um.

970
01:15:14,640 --> 01:15:17,880
It's not a classical psychedelic, So
in terms of the way that a classical

971
01:15:17,960 --> 01:15:25,840
psychedelic comes on, it's very different. Uh Ibogan has been called an oneirogenic,

972
01:15:26,039 --> 01:15:30,680
something that brings about a dream like
state, a waking dreamlike state,

973
01:15:30,600 --> 01:15:35,159
um. Along with that. So
that's the visionary component to it. It's

974
01:15:35,159 --> 01:15:41,720
more of it, more of a
dreamlike state close. Yeah, but waking

975
01:15:41,840 --> 01:15:45,840
dreaming or what it's Yeah, it's
it's it's it is like waking dreaming,

976
01:15:45,119 --> 01:15:50,239
um, but not just like waking
dreaming. Difficult to describe, but um,

977
01:15:50,880 --> 01:15:55,760
that liminal space on you know that
I know that when I'm falling asleep.

978
01:15:55,800 --> 01:15:59,880
It takes me a long time to
fall asleep, and I will be

979
01:16:00,039 --> 01:16:03,920
in this sort of liminal space where
I my eyes are closed, I'm starting

980
01:16:03,960 --> 01:16:09,319
to think about stuff throughout my day, or stuff that's coming up the next

981
01:16:09,399 --> 01:16:15,159
day, the usual worry cycle,
whatever. But then something, some image

982
01:16:15,199 --> 01:16:16,760
will pop up. It's very visual
for me. It's usually like a human

983
01:16:16,840 --> 01:16:21,279
face, but all of a sudden, some other part of my brain clicks

984
01:16:21,319 --> 01:16:25,720
in. There is that. I've
experienced that a lot too. It's like

985
01:16:25,760 --> 01:16:30,800
this pre psychedelic Yeah, you know, a version of like right before you

986
01:16:30,880 --> 01:16:33,279
fall asleep. Yeah, this thing
that happens to your psyche it's really bizarre.

987
01:16:33,439 --> 01:16:40,199
Yeah that whatever that thing is from
my experience, that's what gets drawn

988
01:16:40,239 --> 01:16:45,479
out and amplified with these So it's
that experience like times ten or one hundred

989
01:16:45,520 --> 01:16:47,720
and then yeah, drawn out over
a long period of time. And during

990
01:16:47,760 --> 01:16:50,960
that period of time, I mean, is what are people seeing? I

991
01:16:51,000 --> 01:16:55,159
mean, what are anecdotes you've heard? I mean stories that are told like

992
01:16:55,239 --> 01:16:59,600
they're like someone's replaying their life.
Yeah, it's if it's a PTSD suffer,

993
01:16:59,720 --> 01:17:02,039
I mean other things. Is it
kind of like psilocybin where there's these

994
01:17:02,560 --> 01:17:08,279
different it's not a directly clear message, but there's like a it's episodic.

995
01:17:08,399 --> 01:17:12,199
You're visualizing for a story. Is
there like a storyline or what. Yeah.

996
01:17:12,239 --> 01:17:17,239
People that I have spoken with who've
talked about it in detail describe it

997
01:17:17,399 --> 01:17:25,560
as an episodic dreamlike state. And
in terms of the content of those episodes,

998
01:17:26,159 --> 01:17:30,239
a lot of it has to do
with personal history, So events of

999
01:17:30,359 --> 01:17:41,880
somebody's life unfolding, but unfolding in
the presence of some a presence, something

1000
01:17:41,960 --> 01:17:47,520
that is there that is offering guidance
and kindness. I heard one person describe

1001
01:17:48,000 --> 01:17:51,159
yeah, so I one person that
I know described, well, there's the

1002
01:17:51,239 --> 01:17:58,319
spiritual aspect. I guess, yeah. Yeah. I spoke with somebody who

1003
01:17:58,399 --> 01:18:09,399
described all of the embarrassing or difficult
or traumatic experiences of their life playing out

1004
01:18:10,439 --> 01:18:16,359
in these little episodes. And these
were episodes in this person's life that caused

1005
01:18:16,399 --> 01:18:21,800
them a lot of strife and anxiety
or worry. They caused a lot of

1006
01:18:21,840 --> 01:18:28,199
the mental health issues that were going
on with them. But the kind and

1007
01:18:28,279 --> 01:18:34,479
loving presence that was there showing these
episodes to the person the person's reliving these

1008
01:18:34,520 --> 01:18:42,000
episodes in the presence of this kind
being that says, look, you need

1009
01:18:42,079 --> 01:18:45,479
to look at this. You have
to re experience this traumatic thing from when

1010
01:18:45,520 --> 01:18:53,239
you were four years old and experience
it in exquisite detail, like every sense

1011
01:18:54,600 --> 01:18:58,239
memory comes back that's associated with it. It's as if it's being relived,

1012
01:18:58,760 --> 01:19:01,680
but just for about fifteen twenty seconds. Just like in a dream. You

1013
01:19:01,800 --> 01:19:05,319
only need like a snippet of a
dream to get an entire story, right,

1014
01:19:05,359 --> 01:19:11,279
it's all the hyperloaded stuff, the
sense memories that get crystallized, and

1015
01:19:11,439 --> 01:19:17,119
it's all happening in this person's description
and the presence of a kind and loving

1016
01:19:18,359 --> 01:19:27,159
being that is larger than any single
human being. So it's a feeling that

1017
01:19:27,800 --> 01:19:30,279
this thing or this presence, this
whatever is there without getting to woo.

1018
01:19:30,520 --> 01:19:34,399
It's like a yeah, it's a
comforting, warm feeling to relive this dark

1019
01:19:34,479 --> 01:19:41,279
shit. Yeah, the dark shit
is seen as it is, it is

1020
01:19:41,359 --> 01:19:46,800
experienced as it was, you know, but it's tolerable and something can be

1021
01:19:47,039 --> 01:19:56,560
learned anew from it because there is
this comforting I don't want to say omnipotent,

1022
01:19:56,640 --> 01:20:00,479
but this this this comforting, reassuring
presence that's bigger than any single person.

1023
01:20:00,680 --> 01:20:04,720
But in reliving these experiences, you're
kind of offering a chance to rewire

1024
01:20:05,039 --> 01:20:10,800
your habitual response. Yeah, and
the trauma and so that's maybe seems like

1025
01:20:10,920 --> 01:20:15,920
a source of the potential for PTSD. Yes, And in this person's experience,

1026
01:20:15,960 --> 01:20:19,159
it wasn't just that one traumatic episode. It's like, Okay, we've

1027
01:20:19,239 --> 01:20:26,319
done that one traumatic episode, now
on to the next. It's just like

1028
01:20:26,439 --> 01:20:31,359
we're just gonna keep fucking going through
these over hundreds of these experiences. But

1029
01:20:31,880 --> 01:20:36,119
in the presence and people are able
to remember this stuff. Yeah, not

1030
01:20:36,239 --> 01:20:39,800
always. I mean it is not
a lot of it. It is dream

1031
01:20:39,880 --> 01:20:42,199
like, you know, and we
can't remember all of our dreams, but

1032
01:20:42,439 --> 01:20:45,800
but a lot of it comes back
because the liminal spaces opened up. Um.

1033
01:20:45,960 --> 01:20:54,600
But one of the things that happens
is when all these traumatic experiences play

1034
01:20:54,640 --> 01:20:58,159
out over and over again, but
we're able to tolerate it because there's this

1035
01:20:58,239 --> 01:21:04,720
comforting presence there with us, or
so it feels. So it feels patterns

1036
01:21:05,239 --> 01:21:10,680
start to emerge in the experiences,
these things that are bigger than the experiences

1037
01:21:10,720 --> 01:21:14,199
themselves. It's like, oh,
I kind of see a behavior pattern in

1038
01:21:14,359 --> 01:21:17,159
terms of my responses to these traumatic
things. And so it's a way of

1039
01:21:17,359 --> 01:21:25,359
stepping away from them or seeing them
as as distinct units that can be digested.

1040
01:21:25,439 --> 01:21:30,359
It's not just this traumatic, horrible
thing that lingers and vibrates and keeps

1041
01:21:30,399 --> 01:21:34,640
fucking with your ability to live a
life. It's okay. It's one little,

1042
01:21:34,680 --> 01:21:39,600
discreete thing offered to you with kindness
and compassion. You experience it,

1043
01:21:39,760 --> 01:21:42,840
you see it, move on to
the next one, and then the next

1044
01:21:42,880 --> 01:21:46,239
one. And then by having that
juxtaposition of one experience next to another,

1045
01:21:46,920 --> 01:21:54,119
the patterns of behavioral response an emotional
response kind of come to light, become

1046
01:21:54,159 --> 01:21:57,000
apparent to you, and you can
analyze, and that's where the potential for

1047
01:21:57,079 --> 01:22:00,119
self insight comes from and maybe to
learn something that's my understanding. Yeah,

1048
01:22:00,640 --> 01:22:03,640
which is kind of what MDMA does, but not I mean, it puts

1049
01:22:03,680 --> 01:22:06,840
you in that space where you can
deal with negative shit if you choose to

1050
01:22:06,920 --> 01:22:10,680
think about it. But it doesn't
show this stuff to you. It's not

1051
01:22:10,800 --> 01:22:14,359
like it's you can also just take
MDMA and feel good and dance to fucking

1052
01:22:14,439 --> 01:22:16,199
music and whatever. I mean,
it's yeah, you'd be hard pressed to

1053
01:22:16,319 --> 01:22:21,079
dance for hours. I focus is
like, you're gonna deal with this shit.

1054
01:22:21,199 --> 01:22:26,640
Here's your fucking eight weeks of therapy
in eight hours, or it sounds

1055
01:22:26,680 --> 01:22:30,000
like a year of therapy in eight
hours. So there's there's potential here not

1056
01:22:30,199 --> 01:22:36,760
just for people with addiction issues,
but with traumas of any kind. I

1057
01:22:36,800 --> 01:22:44,039
mean, people who've had fucked up
childhoods or just yes, just anger issues

1058
01:22:44,159 --> 01:22:45,800
or whatever. I mean. It's
and that is the idea behind a lot

1059
01:22:45,840 --> 01:22:49,520
of people who are trying to use
these things therapeutically or get them approved by

1060
01:22:49,520 --> 01:22:53,359
the FDA or compounds LA. But
with people that are just dealing it,

1061
01:22:53,399 --> 01:22:55,760
if it's not an addiction, does
I mean, would you recommend the flood

1062
01:22:55,800 --> 01:22:58,720
those still it sounds so intense.
I don't recommend ject shit to anybody,

1063
01:22:59,680 --> 01:23:02,319
or or do you see would you
think a flood dose is applicable or is

1064
01:23:02,359 --> 01:23:06,880
it more just like the one fifty
milligram group therapy setting might be well,

1065
01:23:06,920 --> 01:23:11,079
this is okay, So this is
a good opportunity to bring up the mesodose

1066
01:23:12,439 --> 01:23:18,279
protocol. And so this group I
see hears and some other researchers who are

1067
01:23:19,319 --> 01:23:25,000
looking at safer ways to use eyebogain
have come up with dosing strategies that are

1068
01:23:25,039 --> 01:23:29,840
not the flood dose. And this
takes more time, and which is good

1069
01:23:30,039 --> 01:23:33,359
when it comes to treating addictions is
having more time to break patterns. But

1070
01:23:33,600 --> 01:23:38,520
administering a small dose something along the
lines of one hundred and fifty milligram dose

1071
01:23:39,039 --> 01:23:43,159
and then a couple of days later
a slightly larger dose, and then a

1072
01:23:43,239 --> 01:23:49,399
few days later a slightly larger dose. So that the because because the secondary

1073
01:23:49,520 --> 01:23:55,079
the metabolite is still secondary, the
metabolite itself that your body produces, still

1074
01:23:55,079 --> 01:23:59,079
in your system is slowly building up. And this is a potential way around

1075
01:23:59,119 --> 01:24:01,079
the Cardio Texas city of it or
that is correct. Yeah, And in

1076
01:24:01,199 --> 01:24:06,800
fact, there are a couple of
studies that where they did cardiac monitoring of

1077
01:24:06,960 --> 01:24:12,119
people receiving this mesodose thing. Is
study that was done in Spain. Um

1078
01:24:12,640 --> 01:24:19,640
and uh, no arrhythmias or QT
interval prolongation was was noted with the mesodose

1079
01:24:19,680 --> 01:24:24,640
administration. So it's it's it's a
safer way to do it. So the

1080
01:24:25,000 --> 01:24:29,680
main dose, how long does it
last? You know, I'm both the

1081
01:24:30,119 --> 01:24:32,319
meso I guess we'll talk about them. What you're calling a mesodose. Yeah,

1082
01:24:32,399 --> 01:24:39,359
yeah, So with that um uh, the the aneurogenic or the dream

1083
01:24:39,399 --> 01:24:45,359
like effects from people that I've spoken
with and some of the reports it's it's

1084
01:24:45,359 --> 01:24:48,880
a few hours, you know,
four or five six hours UM. And

1085
01:24:49,720 --> 01:24:57,239
after that the the the secondary effects
are not terribly acute. I mean,

1086
01:24:57,359 --> 01:25:00,920
when it's taken in the one hundred
and fifty two hundred three your milligram range,

1087
01:25:00,600 --> 01:25:03,960
a lot of the cerebellar stuff,
so there's like the ataxia and like

1088
01:25:04,039 --> 01:25:08,119
the tremors and all that stuff that
that doesn't happen at that dose. What

1089
01:25:08,319 --> 01:25:12,319
is ataxia for people listening and the
tremors? What are these physical effects?

1090
01:25:12,439 --> 01:25:18,840
Um? It would be like a
it would be an involuntary tremor type spasm

1091
01:25:19,159 --> 01:25:29,000
movement basically a repetitive uh movement that's
not voluntary. That could be seizing up

1092
01:25:29,039 --> 01:25:31,800
and nut moving, or it could
be like a Parkinson's type tremlers. Sounds

1093
01:25:31,920 --> 01:25:35,039
kind of scary, and this is
that this sometimes you get a flooddose,

1094
01:25:35,079 --> 01:25:40,640
as you're saying, pretty frequently,
you like reliably. So like during a

1095
01:25:40,720 --> 01:25:45,079
flooddose, someone would be every that
they laying down or what are they?

1096
01:25:45,479 --> 01:25:47,880
Yes, yes, you're not getting
up and pacing around them. There's no

1097
01:25:48,319 --> 01:25:51,760
no I mean, if if somebody's
getting up to go pee, uh,

1098
01:25:53,640 --> 01:25:57,039
if they can even realize that it's
time to go pee. Uh, someone

1099
01:25:57,239 --> 01:26:00,680
is with them in a responsible setting. But no, with the flood dose,

1100
01:26:01,279 --> 01:26:04,720
you're not moving for a real long
Well, when ceremonial settings like when

1101
01:26:04,920 --> 01:26:08,600
when the wheatly did it, I
mean they would they fucking bury you,

1102
01:26:08,800 --> 01:26:12,279
right, or that's part of it
that comes towards the end of the experience

1103
01:26:12,319 --> 01:26:15,560
of my understanding. Um. Some
of the some of the first images that

1104
01:26:15,600 --> 01:26:19,439
I saw that got me interested in
ibogain and aboga came from the book Plants

1105
01:26:19,479 --> 01:26:27,680
of the Gods. Richard Evan Schultz
and Albert Hoffman also contributed to that book,

1106
01:26:28,039 --> 01:26:31,640
But they're essentially and Shulties maybe as
I pronounced his last name, but

1107
01:26:32,520 --> 01:26:35,920
you know, sort of this overview
of the ethnobotanical plants of the world,

1108
01:26:36,000 --> 01:26:40,439
Plants of the Gods. And there's
a section on iboga in there. And

1109
01:26:41,119 --> 01:26:46,000
there are images really grainy black and
white pictures of people participating in a wheety

1110
01:26:46,079 --> 01:26:54,000
ceremony under the influence of a large
dose of ibogah, sitting down or lying

1111
01:26:54,159 --> 01:26:59,520
down with their head propped on a
pillow up against a wall. People arranged

1112
01:26:59,560 --> 01:27:04,560
around a room. So the people
who are on the eboga are feet towards

1113
01:27:04,600 --> 01:27:09,920
the center of the room and but
prostrate I mean, you know, lying

1114
01:27:10,000 --> 01:27:17,800
down, not prostrate, but supine
and um uh not moving uh and kind

1115
01:27:17,840 --> 01:27:23,800
of rigid looking because the ataxia is
so strong with a flood dose to the

1116
01:27:23,880 --> 01:27:26,600
point of someone not being able to
move. And there's someone I mean in

1117
01:27:26,640 --> 01:27:30,039
a ceremony, there's like someone leading
the ceremony. I mean, oh yeah,

1118
01:27:30,239 --> 01:27:32,279
yeah, yeah, it's it's not
just one pos not on my boga.

1119
01:27:32,880 --> 01:27:40,199
You know, I'm not a hyah. You know. The the episode

1120
01:27:40,319 --> 01:27:44,039
in Hamilton Morris's show did a really
good job of of of showing one of

1121
01:27:44,119 --> 01:27:49,479
these music events ceremonies. Um.
Again, I've never participated in them.

1122
01:27:50,319 --> 01:27:57,159
My understanding of them is through you
know, stuff like that music. It's

1123
01:27:57,199 --> 01:28:04,279
a highly choreographed um ceremony and multi
sensory. I mean a lot of it

1124
01:28:04,359 --> 01:28:09,600
looks like sensory processing stuff that I
would do as an occupational therapist. I

1125
01:28:09,640 --> 01:28:13,760
mean, like um, which kind
of brings me to those secondary effects of

1126
01:28:13,840 --> 01:28:18,199
eybogain. Actually it really quick though, but we'll bookmark this therapy. Don't

1127
01:28:18,239 --> 01:28:21,479
forget to get back to this,
because I fucking will. But but h

1128
01:28:23,479 --> 01:28:26,359
so you're in your in your job
as an occupational therapist. What are you

1129
01:28:26,359 --> 01:28:29,079
who are you dealing wh I mean, you're dealing with Alzheimer's patients, brain

1130
01:28:29,159 --> 01:28:33,760
injuries addicts. More recently, the
main reason why people were in the hospital

1131
01:28:34,039 --> 01:28:40,520
was an acute brain injury, traumatic
brain injury, stroke, lots of strokes

1132
01:28:40,760 --> 01:28:45,079
in different parts of the body,
do different things. And you know,

1133
01:28:45,600 --> 01:28:48,319
my job was, I mean,
the nuts and bolts of it was teaching

1134
01:28:48,520 --> 01:28:51,600
somebody who had a brain injury how
to be able to wipe your butt again

1135
01:28:51,680 --> 01:28:55,760
and eat food and all that kind
of stuff, the activities of daily living.

1136
01:28:55,800 --> 01:29:00,439
That's the stuff of occupational therapy.
But there are techniques that are common

1137
01:29:00,479 --> 01:29:06,039
to physical therapy and occupational therapy that
involve understanding and leveraging the neurological systems that

1138
01:29:06,159 --> 01:29:14,199
have been injured in order to bring
function back, and so pulsing and vibratory

1139
01:29:14,279 --> 01:29:18,119
or electro stimulation of muscles that aren't
working as a result of neurological damage,

1140
01:29:19,199 --> 01:29:24,479
these are all techniques that are used. So yeah, I mean, and

1141
01:29:24,840 --> 01:29:30,119
some people would have brain injuries as
a result of acute drug intoxication. We

1142
01:29:30,199 --> 01:29:35,199
saw that with fentanyl, with certain
types of hypocampal seizures that would occur as

1143
01:29:35,319 --> 01:29:42,239
r ugly. But yeah, yeah, so yeah, there's there's a lot

1144
01:29:42,279 --> 01:29:47,199
going on there with large doses of
eboga or eyebo gain. You know,

1145
01:29:47,439 --> 01:29:54,119
somebody would be lying down because of
the cerebellar effects, those the ataxia or

1146
01:29:54,600 --> 01:30:03,319
the movement type irregularities. And but
as somebody is coming out of the eyebogain

1147
01:30:03,399 --> 01:30:10,960
experience, those those those things persist
longer than the dream like state. And

1148
01:30:11,239 --> 01:30:14,800
so there are like these weird perceptual
things that happen. And these are the

1149
01:30:14,920 --> 01:30:17,680
secondary effect secondary effects, yeah,
after the main phase is over. Yeah,

1150
01:30:17,760 --> 01:30:20,439
and these are the effects that quite
frankly, a lot of the drugs

1151
01:30:20,479 --> 01:30:25,840
that are in development in the pharmaceutical
world are trying to get rid of.

1152
01:30:25,880 --> 01:30:28,479
They're trying to get rid of the
cardiotoxic stuff. They're trying to get rid

1153
01:30:28,520 --> 01:30:32,680
of the cerebellar toxicity, the ataxi
all that, the sensure potentials, which

1154
01:30:32,760 --> 01:30:35,600
makes sense, you know, makes
it makes a lot of sense. The

1155
01:30:35,720 --> 01:30:42,319
problem is not all of these medicines
make it through phase two because they're just

1156
01:30:42,319 --> 01:30:45,840
not as effective. That's not to
say that they won't be um you know,

1157
01:30:46,359 --> 01:30:50,119
the abogue alkaloids hit lots of different
receptors that do lots of different things.

1158
01:30:50,640 --> 01:30:56,079
There's a lot of room for drug
exploration and novel compound exploration with this

1159
01:30:56,199 --> 01:31:00,000
class of drugs, and there's some
companies that are doing some really cool stuff.

1160
01:31:00,000 --> 01:31:02,600
So but the secondary effects though,
So I mean, what because you

1161
01:31:02,720 --> 01:31:06,560
still got these metabolites which are also
active, which is you said nora ebo

1162
01:31:06,600 --> 01:31:11,199
game. So nora abogaine is the
principal metabolite. Yeah, And so how

1163
01:31:11,279 --> 01:31:14,680
long are the secondary affects? I
mean, you're not you're not clear to

1164
01:31:14,720 --> 01:31:17,520
go back to work obviously if you
do, like a mesodose or especially a

1165
01:31:17,560 --> 01:31:21,079
floodos at what point? So so
with a mesodose that was kind of the

1166
01:31:21,159 --> 01:31:28,239
point. So this one study,
uh, this this woman mid forties trying

1167
01:31:28,279 --> 01:31:34,239
to kick she had kicked heroine with
opiate replacement it's a box on or something

1168
01:31:34,439 --> 01:31:42,359
I think is methodone, and was
doing the mesodos protocol to get off the

1169
01:31:42,479 --> 01:31:45,760
methadone, which I believe was in
the scope of the study. Um,

1170
01:31:46,159 --> 01:31:50,640
pretty successful. But the idea was
she didn't have to leave her life in

1171
01:31:50,880 --> 01:31:57,079
order to do this. She was
living a productive and fulfilling life to work

1172
01:31:58,000 --> 01:32:00,640
doing her thing. She doesn't have
to take a week off to go to

1173
01:32:00,760 --> 01:32:03,840
Mexico or whatever. Correct. Yeah, And so that was the whole point

1174
01:32:04,079 --> 01:32:06,680
of not the whole point, but
that that was a big part of the

1175
01:32:06,760 --> 01:32:12,039
Mesodocene was like, Okay, is
this a medicine that we can administer in

1176
01:32:12,079 --> 01:32:16,279
a different way in order to keep
people living their lives? If if most

1177
01:32:16,359 --> 01:32:20,319
of what's going on in their life
is productive and meaningful, and you don't

1178
01:32:20,359 --> 01:32:24,640
want to like take someone out of
that, and you don't necessarily if somebody's

1179
01:32:24,680 --> 01:32:27,640
doing well aside from the fact that
it is, want to get off the

1180
01:32:27,640 --> 01:32:30,239
subox zone and get off the methodone. Everything else is kind of falling into

1181
01:32:30,319 --> 01:32:34,439
place. But they want to get
off that. That's probably I don't know,

1182
01:32:34,600 --> 01:32:39,000
but it doesn't seem like a good
time to have like a life shattering

1183
01:32:39,119 --> 01:32:45,560
experience, all right. That might
prevent more people from from doing it that

1184
01:32:45,640 --> 01:32:49,479
might otherwise be you know, as
as as medicine, to think about these

1185
01:32:49,560 --> 01:32:58,960
things as medicines, particularly pharmaceuticals that
are incorporated into evidence based approaches to medical

1186
01:32:59,079 --> 01:33:01,800
care, they have to be accessible, they have to be safe, they

1187
01:33:01,880 --> 01:33:08,439
have to be non jarring to people's
lives. And that's I think a big

1188
01:33:08,600 --> 01:33:13,680
part of you know, pharmaceutical companies
that are popping up that are trying to

1189
01:33:13,720 --> 01:33:16,520
explore non psychedelic psychedelics. It's for
that reason. I mean, they're a

1190
01:33:16,520 --> 01:33:26,439
whole host of things that are beneficial
from a psychedelic and yes, the insights

1191
01:33:26,520 --> 01:33:29,920
that come from the visionary experience,
they are beneficial too, to some,

1192
01:33:30,159 --> 01:33:33,680
not to everybody. So what so, Okay, so we talk about this

1193
01:33:33,800 --> 01:33:41,039
case study, this woman that mesodo. Yeah, so she is coming into

1194
01:33:41,079 --> 01:33:48,520
a clinic getting cardiac monitoring, being
administered the progressively larger but relatively small doses

1195
01:33:48,560 --> 01:33:53,720
of the mesodose protocol and you know, checking in seeing how she's doing,

1196
01:33:54,199 --> 01:33:57,960
and she again goes back to work
the next day, two days, it

1197
01:33:58,079 --> 01:34:03,159
comes back gets you know, next
dose progressively higher but not huge, and

1198
01:34:03,880 --> 01:34:09,439
there is a tapering of the methodone
that's happening at the same time. And

1199
01:34:09,560 --> 01:34:13,920
again this is she's still actively getting
methodone even though she's at a methodose or

1200
01:34:13,960 --> 01:34:18,399
what I do not know. I
don't remember the exact dosing protocol of the

1201
01:34:18,479 --> 01:34:23,920
methodone. It is, it's described
in the study. You know, it

1202
01:34:23,960 --> 01:34:25,800
might be worth while to put a
link to it or something I don't,

1203
01:34:25,840 --> 01:34:34,079
okay, but the idea is that
it is the mesodose. Is that protocol

1204
01:34:34,359 --> 01:34:39,359
happening over the course of a week. It's not interrupting her life to a

1205
01:34:39,439 --> 01:34:45,640
large degree, but she's still I
mean, she's still getting administered this mesodoes

1206
01:34:45,680 --> 01:34:47,960
in a clinic and having psychedelic experiences
obviously, I mean, you know,

1207
01:34:48,199 --> 01:34:51,680
on this, Yeah, in terms
of phenomenology what she's reporting, I don't

1208
01:34:51,720 --> 01:34:59,000
recall there being a lot of description
of that, you know, I don't

1209
01:34:59,000 --> 01:35:01,640
know, I don't know. I
bow gain micro dosing in a patient with

1210
01:35:01,760 --> 01:35:06,319
bipolar depression, effects of load dose, ibogain and subjective moods thing. Oh,

1211
01:35:06,359 --> 01:35:11,119
there's quite a few papers on this, and this isn't even look at

1212
01:35:11,159 --> 01:35:18,520
ibogain and methadone withdrawal. Okay,
what about uses for I mean PTSD and

1213
01:35:19,039 --> 01:35:21,840
things like that. I mean,
there seems like there's obviously a lot of

1214
01:35:21,840 --> 01:35:25,000
potential from that too. I mean, not we've been talking about this just

1215
01:35:25,039 --> 01:35:30,479
in the context of addiction remedy,
but yeah, it definitely seems like it

1216
01:35:30,600 --> 01:35:33,359
is applicable to post traumatic stress disorder, and particularly in some of the anecdotes

1217
01:35:33,399 --> 01:35:38,119
that I've heard. I mean,
you know, the experience the phenomena that

1218
01:35:38,279 --> 01:35:44,560
happened in that dreamlike state. They
deal directly with traumatic life experiences and but

1219
01:35:44,760 --> 01:35:50,119
dealing with them in ways that are
manageable so that they don't retraumatize, which

1220
01:35:50,199 --> 01:35:55,359
is kind of the whole point of
the MAPS MDMA protocol is, you know,

1221
01:35:55,520 --> 01:36:00,199
being able to access those traumatic events
and but to be able to do

1222
01:36:00,319 --> 01:36:04,760
so in a way that it's not
retraumatizing. And you're right, you're not

1223
01:36:04,880 --> 01:36:10,439
just then a fucking roller coaster reliving
these terrible experiences, but you're kind of

1224
01:36:10,560 --> 01:36:15,159
detached in the right way where you
can analyze them and gain something from them

1225
01:36:15,399 --> 01:36:17,800
with the properly trained therapists. So
does that actually I mean does that actually

1226
01:36:18,439 --> 01:36:21,159
that's reported to happen on some of
these methods, I mean, how does

1227
01:36:21,199 --> 01:36:25,199
it? Where does the detachment come
from? So it's not you know,

1228
01:36:25,319 --> 01:36:32,279
there there haven't been enough studies of
the mesodose to really go back and look

1229
01:36:32,359 --> 01:36:38,800
at the phenomena that that the patient
experiences. My understanding is that most of

1230
01:36:38,880 --> 01:36:46,239
these were looking for cardio safe treatment, right methods and methods that didn't interrupt

1231
01:36:46,279 --> 01:36:50,960
somebody's life. So the idea behind
them is to not create jarring experiences.

1232
01:36:51,199 --> 01:36:59,520
Although I got to say, all
reports that I've heard of people who you

1233
01:36:59,600 --> 01:37:04,840
know of of that sort of dreamlike
experience within the ibergain experience, it's not

1234
01:37:05,039 --> 01:37:11,920
traumatic. Hum, So you have
ends, but it's not traumatic. You

1235
01:37:12,039 --> 01:37:15,680
haven't really heard any reports of like
traumatizingly bad trips. In other words,

1236
01:37:16,560 --> 01:37:21,920
well, I don't know about that
um or at least where nothing is gained

1237
01:37:21,920 --> 01:37:25,399
out of it or what I mean. This ship has got to be hard

1238
01:37:25,479 --> 01:37:30,720
to relive. So okay, So
I have heard of directly heard from and

1239
01:37:31,319 --> 01:37:40,439
seeing more than one person who went
to one of these clinics addicted to opiates.

1240
01:37:42,439 --> 01:37:49,039
Did the flood dose um came back? They were not actively using,

1241
01:37:49,239 --> 01:37:54,680
seemed like they were doing pretty darn
well. But they did not then reconfigure

1242
01:37:54,720 --> 01:38:00,680
their lives, and so the very
structure of their lives came back to their

1243
01:38:00,720 --> 01:38:03,880
addiction in full swing. You know, I hear a lot. So they

1244
01:38:03,920 --> 01:38:09,159
started using it and started using again. Yeah, I mean, heroin is

1245
01:38:09,920 --> 01:38:13,399
a powerful beast. It seems like, yeah, it's not there, it

1246
01:38:13,520 --> 01:38:15,720
seems like nothing whatever. Have one
hundred and sent success right with right,

1247
01:38:16,119 --> 01:38:18,399
right, that's kind of to be
expected. But I mean, in terms

1248
01:38:18,439 --> 01:38:21,359
of they you know, people who've
gone through this and it's just been a

1249
01:38:21,439 --> 01:38:26,439
terrible experience for them while they were
on it, like, not usually after.

1250
01:38:26,680 --> 01:38:30,760
Usually those terrible experiences as reported by
the people who've had them, Uh,

1251
01:38:30,239 --> 01:38:34,840
they are co occurrences with some sort
of physical thing that happens, you

1252
01:38:34,960 --> 01:38:39,800
know, like um, a cardiac
event, right, Like they shouldn't have

1253
01:38:39,840 --> 01:38:45,600
been administered anyway, or they're absolutely
freaked out by the cerebellar toxicity effects,

1254
01:38:45,640 --> 01:38:48,800
the tremors or the lock up right
right, not which which could be traumatizing.

1255
01:38:48,960 --> 01:38:54,119
Yeah, not from the actual you
know, waking dreaming or the psychedelic

1256
01:38:54,159 --> 01:38:58,119
effects necessarily. That's so subjective,
right, Yeah, you know, So

1257
01:38:58,279 --> 01:39:00,199
what is your I mean, what
is your hope? I mean, I

1258
01:39:00,239 --> 01:39:02,399
guess in wrapping this up, well, he was made illegal in nineteen sixty

1259
01:39:02,399 --> 01:39:06,000
seven, Jesus, that's earlier,
man. Yeah, what is your h

1260
01:39:08,039 --> 01:39:12,439
I guess what's your what's your hope
for for the potential of this to be

1261
01:39:12,680 --> 01:39:17,079
used for non addicts, for just
just clinically, for people who've just had

1262
01:39:17,159 --> 01:39:21,960
PTSD, for people who've you know, we're molested as kid for instance,

1263
01:39:23,079 --> 01:39:27,960
or have been through really fucking intense
life experiences. I hope it is made

1264
01:39:28,000 --> 01:39:32,520
more available in a safe and responsible
way. UM, because it's very different

1265
01:39:32,720 --> 01:39:40,359
than other UM therapies or modalities or
treatments, or it sounds like it's very

1266
01:39:40,359 --> 01:39:44,239
differ from others psychedelics too, very
very different, very different. To call

1267
01:39:44,279 --> 01:39:48,880
it a psychedelic isn't even accurate.
I don't think UM within the context of

1268
01:39:48,920 --> 01:39:53,880
a classic psychedelic experience. UM.
You know, what are my hopes?

1269
01:39:56,079 --> 01:40:02,239
I hope one day it's it's legal
to grow the plan and to create alternative

1270
01:40:02,840 --> 01:40:10,319
um UH pipelines for the production of
ibogain UM. You know, A big

1271
01:40:10,399 --> 01:40:15,800
part of what I've been working on
UM for the past couple of years is

1272
01:40:15,279 --> 01:40:20,000
UH you know, with it the
Booboga group thing is kind of looking at

1273
01:40:20,039 --> 01:40:30,159
alternative plant sources to access the ibogain
molecular skeleton so that UM the endangered populations

1274
01:40:30,720 --> 01:40:38,520
or don't have to be pirated and
stolen and used by people who want to

1275
01:40:38,560 --> 01:40:41,680
have this experience. Are there still
large plants and habits that or is it?

1276
01:40:42,800 --> 01:40:47,399
You know? Yes, UM,
it's it. I mean it's cultivated,

1277
01:40:48,079 --> 01:40:51,359
widely cultivated, and we saw those
pictures than Ghana of you know,

1278
01:40:51,960 --> 01:40:57,399
it's cultivation that cultivation method is not
unique to that that place. I mean,

1279
01:40:57,439 --> 01:41:01,359
you know people throughout Gabon and other
people who use you know, eboga

1280
01:41:02,079 --> 01:41:06,399
as part of their life, they
cultivate it right um in terms of wild

1281
01:41:06,520 --> 01:41:12,159
plants, just like any other part
of the ecosystem there, it's being destroyed

1282
01:41:12,920 --> 01:41:17,039
um so um, but it can
be regrown, you know, particularly if

1283
01:41:17,279 --> 01:41:23,479
if if it's not if we're not
prohibited from doing so. So what is

1284
01:41:23,520 --> 01:41:27,960
the current da I mean it seems
like it's just a legal kind of just

1285
01:41:28,720 --> 01:41:31,159
archaically as part of this nineteen sixty
seven drug a lot. It's one a

1286
01:41:31,199 --> 01:41:36,760
lot of bunches though. Yeah.
So it's one of the few plants that's

1287
01:41:36,800 --> 01:41:44,840
specifically listed as a Schedule one substance. Um. You know, um the

1288
01:41:45,119 --> 01:41:49,399
capa edgeles plant cott plant right that
is listed that species. It's weird too,

1289
01:41:49,560 --> 01:41:53,560
man, that's like a it's really
bizarre. It's not a yeah,

1290
01:41:53,960 --> 01:41:57,640
it's like cava's legal, not cava. Oh I know, but I'm saying,

1291
01:41:57,640 --> 01:42:00,840
but cava's legal, which is a
noticeable. I mean you can go

1292
01:42:00,920 --> 01:42:06,119
to cava bars and feel this noticeable
effect. And then cod is like a

1293
01:42:06,960 --> 01:42:10,319
I mean I've head cot before,
I didn't even really notice anything. It's

1294
01:42:10,319 --> 01:42:13,720
like it's a mild stimulant unless you
chew it all day long, and then

1295
01:42:13,960 --> 01:42:16,840
you know it's uh, it's the
botanical source of the cathinone, you know,

1296
01:42:17,000 --> 01:42:20,279
am femin like molecule. Yeah I
didn't, I didn't really care for

1297
01:42:20,399 --> 01:42:24,039
it. But there's I mean there's
people who perfectly they just have a growing

1298
01:42:24,039 --> 01:42:26,279
in their yard as a shrub.
Yeah. Well, And and and in

1299
01:42:26,399 --> 01:42:30,479
terms of it being illegal immigrant populations, you know, people from you know,

1300
01:42:30,680 --> 01:42:40,119
Northeast Africa culturally have used cod and
so conveniently, by having the favored

1301
01:42:40,199 --> 01:42:44,159
plant of a culture made illegal,
it's easier for law enforcement to police that

1302
01:42:45,000 --> 01:42:49,840
culture. It's like Somali immigrants or
yeah, yeah, Jesus, it's so

1303
01:42:50,000 --> 01:42:53,720
weird that all this stuff is.
I mean, this this sweeping wall.

1304
01:42:53,720 --> 01:42:56,520
I don't even know the history of
this law, but this sweeping nineteen sixty

1305
01:42:56,560 --> 01:43:00,640
seven law that just outlawed all this
shit is part of, you know,

1306
01:43:00,720 --> 01:43:04,239
the culture war against the hippies.
And it wasn't on a case by case

1307
01:43:04,319 --> 01:43:08,159
basis. It seems like the stuff
was investigated at all. It was just

1308
01:43:08,560 --> 01:43:13,279
no, no, Now, it
was not thoroughly investigated because a thorough investigation

1309
01:43:13,319 --> 01:43:16,239
would have shown that it did not
have high abuse potential. So all this

1310
01:43:16,319 --> 01:43:20,680
stuff is still illegal fifty years later, sixty years later, without any real

1311
01:43:20,880 --> 01:43:25,760
It's an artifact of over policing.
Do you think this will ever, I

1312
01:43:25,880 --> 01:43:28,720
mean, this law will ever get
restended or dealt with in any kind of

1313
01:43:28,760 --> 01:43:30,039
way in this country. I mean, we're still probably a long way last,

1314
01:43:30,079 --> 01:43:34,039
yure, hope. I mean,
I admire the work of the decriminalized

1315
01:43:34,119 --> 01:43:40,760
nature movement. I know that there
are lots of different opinions about that group,

1316
01:43:40,880 --> 01:43:45,319
but the core of that, the
idea that a plant or a fungus

1317
01:43:45,960 --> 01:43:48,840
should not be criminalized, that makes
a hell of a lot of sense to

1318
01:43:48,920 --> 01:43:57,520
me. A refined molecule that you
know, sure, maybe, but it

1319
01:43:57,600 --> 01:44:00,560
should be a it should be a
public health issue, not criminal issue.

1320
01:44:00,680 --> 01:44:05,000
Yeah, it's insane. It seems
really archaic that this stuff is still there.

1321
01:44:05,039 --> 01:44:09,119
Are there, But there's something There's
a lot of people doing studies in

1322
01:44:09,159 --> 01:44:12,720
eyebol gain, there's renewed interest in
it now, so that's maybe it'll be

1323
01:44:12,800 --> 01:44:15,640
on the horizon at some point.
Oh, it's more than on the horizon.

1324
01:44:16,279 --> 01:44:24,720
There are emerging psychedelic medicine companies that
are working with ebogain or variance to

1325
01:44:24,800 --> 01:44:32,880
eyebo gain, mind mead Attie Life
Sciences, Gilgamesh Pharmaceuticals, among others that

1326
01:44:33,119 --> 01:44:41,920
are working with ebogain or variants of
the eyebo gain structure in order to get

1327
01:44:43,319 --> 01:44:47,720
safer medicines that they can bring to
market. I think they're mostly in phase

1328
01:44:47,840 --> 01:44:53,479
one. There is one called eighteen
mc eighteen methoxy coronadyne that made it to

1329
01:44:53,520 --> 01:44:56,680
phase two of the FDA trial process. And what is that? That's an

1330
01:44:56,680 --> 01:45:02,359
analog of eibo gain. Yeah,
it is, and but I don't think

1331
01:45:02,560 --> 01:45:06,119
it was shown to have the efficacy. I might be wrong about that,

1332
01:45:06,199 --> 01:45:09,439
but I think it stopped at phase
two. All the other ones, the

1333
01:45:09,520 --> 01:45:12,560
best of my knowledge, they're like
in phase one. But there's a lot

1334
01:45:12,640 --> 01:45:20,039
There are so many variants to the
eyebogain molecule and that structure pharmacologically that I

1335
01:45:20,159 --> 01:45:27,359
mean, there's a lot of room
to produce novel safer compounds for medical use.

1336
01:45:28,279 --> 01:45:30,600
And what's your opinion on that?
I mean, before we wrap up,

1337
01:45:30,640 --> 01:45:34,560
I mean in terms of the pharmaceutical
interest in these psychedelars, because it

1338
01:45:34,640 --> 01:45:42,920
seems there's so much negative publicity that
on that Avenue, But then it's hard

1339
01:45:42,960 --> 01:45:47,039
to imagine it going forward any other
way. I mean the alternative is,

1340
01:45:47,640 --> 01:45:54,000
you know, just underground community based
therapy, psychedelic therapy. But the problem

1341
01:45:54,079 --> 01:45:56,399
with that is then who do you
trust for a lot of these compounds?

1342
01:45:56,439 --> 01:46:00,279
Who do you trust as a chemist? There's no regulation of that, right,

1343
01:46:00,359 --> 01:46:02,359
I mean, what's Yeah, where
does that go? It is such

1344
01:46:02,399 --> 01:46:08,079
a mixed bag. Um, you
know. Oregon Yeah, you know,

1345
01:46:08,199 --> 01:46:15,279
kind of made a leap in this
direction with decriminalization but also creating the selacidin

1346
01:46:15,640 --> 01:46:18,479
Therapy Board. It's actually a part
of the Oregon State Board of Health.

1347
01:46:19,399 --> 01:46:25,760
But I don't think it's going anywhere
because, um, for a lot of

1348
01:46:25,840 --> 01:46:30,920
reasons. But it's it's using a
fungus, it's not using a pure compound,

1349
01:46:30,359 --> 01:46:32,880
right, It's you don't someone doesn't
need to city the sense that they're

1350
01:46:33,039 --> 01:46:38,199
easy to grow. Yeah, And
I don't. And and as as a

1351
01:46:38,279 --> 01:46:45,880
licensed healthcare professional, I wouldn't want
to lose my license by um being involved

1352
01:46:45,000 --> 01:46:50,159
with something that's federally illegal, even
though there's a state board devoted to studying

1353
01:46:50,239 --> 01:46:55,880
it or creating right if the legality
is still up in the air federally And

1354
01:46:56,000 --> 01:46:59,279
yeah, da you know, if
someone gets a hair up their ass,

1355
01:46:59,359 --> 01:47:02,000
it's just a gung hoo has a
heart on for this stuff, you know,

1356
01:47:02,119 --> 01:47:04,560
And as a federal organization, they
can then come after you. They

1357
01:47:04,600 --> 01:47:08,880
have every legal way to go after
you, even though it's legal, you

1358
01:47:09,000 --> 01:47:11,359
know to the state. I mean, what does that mean. It just

1359
01:47:11,439 --> 01:47:15,840
creates a fucking you know. Yeah, the legal nightmare and then the peace

1360
01:47:15,960 --> 01:47:24,199
meal decriminalization and legalization process does not
lead to best practices in the delivery of

1361
01:47:24,279 --> 01:47:28,319
healthcare. It just doesn't. At
the same time, it's so hard for

1362
01:47:28,399 --> 01:47:31,520
me to imagine on a federal level
people making this stuff legal because there's just

1363
01:47:31,600 --> 01:47:35,159
so much liability and people are so
chicken shit, and culturally we're still so

1364
01:47:35,319 --> 01:47:39,000
backwards. I mean, it's just
a law abortion, you know, like

1365
01:47:39,279 --> 01:47:44,520
what the fuck? Right? Yeah? Yeah, yeah. Having healthcare mitigated

1366
01:47:44,600 --> 01:47:49,000
by politicians is across the board a
rescipe for horror. I mean, in

1367
01:47:49,079 --> 01:47:53,399
fact, the cannabis isn't even federally
legal yet, like that should have been,

1368
01:47:54,279 --> 01:47:58,800
you know, one of the first
things in the agenda of event anyone

1369
01:47:58,920 --> 01:48:02,000
really, I mean, not to
mention the fucking quote unquote liberal yeah,

1370
01:48:02,359 --> 01:48:06,479
progressive candidate. It's so weird.
Man. It's so hard to imagine anything

1371
01:48:06,520 --> 01:48:13,960
advancing positively in this country right now
at all. Such a fucking like looking

1372
01:48:14,000 --> 01:48:15,359
for the virus game. Man,
God, I'm still living in the US

1373
01:48:15,399 --> 01:48:19,000
in five years. What the fuck? Well, man, Michael, thanks

1374
01:48:19,039 --> 01:48:23,800
a lot for your time, because
I had no clue about a lot of

1375
01:48:23,840 --> 01:48:26,079
this stuff, and I was really
I mean, I knew what Eyebo gain

1376
01:48:26,439 --> 01:48:30,119
was, I knew what the plant
was, but you know, uh yeah,

1377
01:48:30,159 --> 01:48:33,560
I just think it's such a it's
still so in the dark. Well,

1378
01:48:33,560 --> 01:48:36,039
I mean with with Eyebo Gain and
Neboga, we're all still learning.

1379
01:48:36,319 --> 01:48:45,000
Yeah, And but it's so different
than other psychedelics. It's so different culturally,

1380
01:48:45,119 --> 01:48:49,079
It's very different botanically, horticulturally.
There are so many things about it

1381
01:48:49,279 --> 01:48:56,760
that are unfamiliar to us. The
way that we've been approaching plant medicines and

1382
01:48:57,079 --> 01:49:01,880
psychedelic medicines and the whole shit bang
that um talking about it separately differently,

1383
01:49:01,960 --> 01:49:05,039
I think is good to get some
clarity on it, yeah, yeah,

1384
01:49:05,159 --> 01:49:10,239
because there's not many resources in terms
of learning about it. But I mean,

1385
01:49:10,279 --> 01:49:14,319
it seems especially for like the psychedelic
bro culture, like the people that

1386
01:49:15,000 --> 01:49:16,399
you know, you go to their
Instagram page, and it's just pictures of

1387
01:49:16,520 --> 01:49:19,680
like Tricho, Sirius or pot Year. They're fucking as much as I make

1388
01:49:19,720 --> 01:49:24,680
fun of that shit, I mean, it's it seems interesting if there was,

1389
01:49:24,840 --> 01:49:26,840
you know, if this was to
become a plant that you know,

1390
01:49:27,079 --> 01:49:30,800
those kinds of people were then growing
and trading and getting out there. That

1391
01:49:30,920 --> 01:49:33,520
is starting to happen a little bit. So it's because it seems like something

1392
01:49:33,560 --> 01:49:38,039
that could be grown in a large
pot outside. You just got to take

1393
01:49:38,079 --> 01:49:41,399
it in. When it attempts to
drop below fifty, which in some latitudes

1394
01:49:41,520 --> 01:49:45,319
is like eight months out of the
year, it can't be grown outside.

1395
01:49:45,359 --> 01:49:47,720
But either way, there was a
there was a guy that got in trouble

1396
01:49:47,760 --> 01:49:53,960
at the university in Ohio. Right
was that where it was Ohio Universe?

1397
01:49:54,119 --> 01:49:56,920
I forget the fucking it was Ohio
or Miami. It was Miami. It

1398
01:49:57,000 --> 01:50:00,800
was Miami. Yeah, I don't
know. I forget the exact location,

1399
01:50:00,119 --> 01:50:01,880
damn it. I think it was. It was confusing. It was like

1400
01:50:02,000 --> 01:50:05,800
Miami University in Ohio. Yeah,
No, I think they were growing it

1401
01:50:06,039 --> 01:50:10,640
in a botanical garden, right,
you know, it was like in a

1402
01:50:10,720 --> 01:50:15,000
greenhouse at the University of botanical specimen
and dude got fired, you know over

1403
01:50:15,079 --> 01:50:18,760
it. Jesus Christ. Yeah,
okay, oh yeah it was in Ohio,

1404
01:50:18,920 --> 01:50:23,800
Miami University. There's a Miami University
in Ohio. That doesn't make that's

1405
01:50:23,880 --> 01:50:26,359
fucking confusing. You know that they
got a picture of the conservatory it was,

1406
01:50:26,399 --> 01:50:29,199
and it looks like a cool conservatory. Yeah, so where I wonder

1407
01:50:29,239 --> 01:50:30,920
where the guy got it and what
is interested it was. It's kind of

1408
01:50:31,000 --> 01:50:34,279
cool. I mean the seeds were
given as a gift. I read that

1409
01:50:34,319 --> 01:50:38,000
a long time ago, but I
think the seeds were given as a gift.

1410
01:50:38,560 --> 01:50:41,119
They tried really hard to get it
to grow. They finally got one

1411
01:50:41,199 --> 01:50:45,880
plant to grow and then lo and
behold somebody, God of course it's Ohio.

1412
01:50:46,079 --> 01:50:50,600
They just backwards. I mean,
fire the dude. That should have

1413
01:50:50,640 --> 01:50:55,039
just been a slap on the risk
if anything, you know. Yeah,

1414
01:50:55,479 --> 01:50:58,560
I mean, obviously you can't grow
an illegal plant at a university, but

1415
01:50:58,720 --> 01:51:00,680
fucking hey, I mean, you
ken if you have you know, a

1416
01:51:00,800 --> 01:51:03,520
permit, you need to get a
DA permit or something like the same thing

1417
01:51:03,600 --> 01:51:08,840
that people do with paodu. Yeah, that that research purposes. Yeah,

1418
01:51:09,000 --> 01:51:12,119
there's there's parody plants that were at
at soul Russ. Yeah, you know,

1419
01:51:12,760 --> 01:51:15,520
I guess they had a they had
a DA permit to grow those,

1420
01:51:15,760 --> 01:51:17,880
right, you need to prove that
you're doing valid research and that it's and

1421
01:51:18,000 --> 01:51:21,720
keep them under lock and key three
three forms of lock. And yeah,

1422
01:51:23,640 --> 01:51:26,920
yeah they could have done that there, but I wouldn't expect anyone in Ohio

1423
01:51:27,119 --> 01:51:30,359
to you know, have the guts
to well. And also it's not grandfathered

1424
01:51:30,399 --> 01:51:34,079
in there. I mean, you
know, if a university that's growing a

1425
01:51:34,199 --> 01:51:39,800
native plant to that region, you
know that gets grandfathered in. But right,

1426
01:51:40,079 --> 01:51:45,640
you know, growing a plant from
equatorial Africa right in Ohio or wherever

1427
01:51:45,760 --> 01:51:47,800
it is that you're doing, that's
still so goofy. Oh no, it's

1428
01:51:47,840 --> 01:51:53,039
it's it's goofy. Just imagine some
fucking jolly suited administration, you know,

1429
01:51:53,039 --> 01:51:58,439
administrator you know always kind of have
those yeah, fucking hey man, Well,

1430
01:51:58,479 --> 01:52:00,479
I I well thanks a lot,
this is it's been great. I

1431
01:52:00,520 --> 01:52:02,520
really appreciate your time. I'm sure
other people too. Thanks man a right,

1432
01:52:02,640 --> 01:52:04,479
all right, thanks, all right, you have a good rest draft

1433
01:52:04,560 --> 01:52:05,680
and everybody go fuck you up.
By