WEBVTT

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This is Doctor Wendy Walsh and you're
listening to k I Am six forty,

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the Doctor Wendy Walsh Show on demand
on the iHeartRadio app. Hef I Am

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six forty. You are Doctor Wendy
Walsh with you. This is the Dr

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Wendy Walls Show. And this is
the time in my show where I go

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to my social media, dig into
the DMS and pull out some of your

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questions. Reminder to everybody, I'm
not a therapist. I'm a psychology professor,

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but I've been reading the research on
love for a very long time.

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All right, Here we go heading
into the DMS. HI, Doctor Wendy

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says this listener, I have a
connection with someone I know isn't good for

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me. I haven't reached out,
and neither has he. I'm a woman

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with needs and being single is hard. I'm so picky and I don't connect

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with just anyone who shows interest in
me. How do I scratch that itch

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but not engage in behaviors that are
bad for me? All right? So

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the real question is why do you
have the itch? And what I mean

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is you're saying you have needs.
I assume you mean sexual needs and scratch

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that itch. You know. I
just want to go back to your very

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first sentence, I have a connection
with someone I know isn't good for me.

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So this is what I would call
stage two of the four stages of

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personal growth. Stage one is you're
walking down the street. You don't see

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a hole, you fall in.
Stage two is you're walking down the street.

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Now you see that hole, and
you still fall in. Maybe you're

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moving to the stage three here.
Stage three, as you walk down a

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street, you see the hole and
you work very carefully to walk around that

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hole. But stage four is you
take a different street. When people say

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I'm so picky and I don't connect
with just anyone, it tells me that

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you're waiting for the perfect person who
will reignite your childhood conflicts, your childhood

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trauma if it will. You see
people who have a secure attachment style just

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naturally move away from people who are
bad for them. It doesn't feel good

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to them, But there's a piece
of you that's drawn to it that you

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have an itch that needs to be
scratched. I would say, a wound

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that needs to be healed, and
the answer is always going to therapy.

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Having your therapist as a wingman as
you carefully work through those steps and eventually

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learn to take a different street.
What happens at the beginning is you may

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date people who seem very nice,
but you feel bored with them because they're

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not giving you that little tickle of
excitement to scratch your itch, that fear

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that's based or that's intertwined with love. But actually you're meeting somebody who has

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a secure attachment style. Because a
secure relationship doesn't feel like a roller coaster.

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It just feels like peace. It
feels calm. Good luck to you.

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All right, let us move along. Here's one dear doctor, Wendy.

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I think my relationship is failing.
Oh I feel lonely all the time.

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I can't tell if we're in a
low or if it's over. We've

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been together for five years. She
used to be my best friend, but

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now we barely talk. What can
I do to get us out of this

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low? Well, you bring it
up. So here's the thing. You

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bring it up, but you have
to be prepared for the response. I

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actually went through this recently. A
few weeks ago, I was coaching a

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young woman, just advising friend,
you know, just telling daughter daughter of

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a friend of mine, and she
was like, Oh, it feels like

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my boyfriend's kind of weaning me.
I'm like, I'm doing all the calling

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and it feels like there's less time
between the calls and the texts, and

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I'm not seeing him as much.
And I said, well, that's often

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how guys break up and you off
or they misbehave until you break up with

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them. But you'll never know unless
you ask about it. You also have

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to be prepared for the answer,
even if the answer is avoidant, like

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I don't know. No, I
think things are fine. I don't know.

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I think you're making a big deal
about it. I really I've just

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been busy, right, No,
they're being dismissive and they're not taking your

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feelings and your needs into account.
And then you've got to make a decision.

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So, if you think your relationship
is failing and you're feeling lonely in

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your own relationship, why stay there
without talking about it. You've got to

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bring it up. But you've also
got to be prepared for the answer so

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that you can take the action that
you need. Dear doctor Wendy, my

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fiance cheated on me and broke off
the engagement. She won't give me the

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ring back and has blocked me from
communicating with her. I still love her

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and would like to walk away civilly. However, that ring was expensive and

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I need it back. What's the
best way to go about it? Well,

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I just want you to think about
every single detail. I don't know

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what came before her cheating. I
don't know why she's hoarding that ring.

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I don't know if there's any other
money that changed hands at different times to

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be a relationship, whether somebody owes
somebody or doesn't that. If it's one

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hundred percent that she owes you this
ring back, then you just call a

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lawyer, you take her to civil
court for it and see what happens.

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That's what I would do. But
if you're using it as a way to

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keep in touch, you might want
to let it go too, Dear doctor

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Wendy, This from a woman.
I think I've lost myself in my love

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relationship. I talk like my partner
now, I dress like my partner now.

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We actually live together, and we
work together, and we're together all

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the time. I'm kind of grieving
my independence, but I'm not ready to

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end it with her. How can
I find myself again while I stay in

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the relationship. Well, this is
a good task for you and your therapist.

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This is very common, this kind
of enmeshment. By the way,

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did you know what happened often with
therapists. So there's a kind of like

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often at the beginning of therapy,
if people haven't been to therapy before,

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they idealize their therapists. So they
because they the therapist understands them, they

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see is maybe the first time in
their life when they've been emotionally intimate and

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they've been able to disclose all the
personal things inside themselves and to have somebody

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who's completely accepting of all that is
very exciting. And then as they're learning,

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they start to dress like their therapists, walk like their therapists, their

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conversations out there in the world,
or all my therapist says. My therapist

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says, right, And that's actually
a stepping stone to growth and being completely

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independent. But it sounds like in
your love and your love relationship, your

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attachment anxiety made you become completely enmeshed
with her, and that doesn't feel like

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a safe place. Relationships should look
like a ven diagram, You know those

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diagrams where you see two circles,
two separate individual circle that are overlapping about

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a third of the way. So
each circle represents each partner. You have

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to have your own some of your
own friends, your own work, your

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own autonomous place where you can grow
as a human and keep bringing something new

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into the relationship. In the center
is the relationship, and it is the

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backbone of both your separate identities.
And so I think that it is very

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possible to individuate from within a relationship. That doesn't mean break up. It

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means become an individual, which you've
got to talk about. It sounds like

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the two of you have become so
enmeshed and nobody can remember whose problem is

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whose or how to be independent.
You got to work on this, and

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I would say with a therapist for
sure. One question before we had to

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the break. Can a serious relationship
be found in speed dating? I don't

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like online dating. Is there success
in speed dating? Look at online dating?

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Speed dating meeting somebody in the Gelson's
vegetable aisle. That's all it is.

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You can't say, well, this
can lead to a serious relationship,

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or that is a better place to
find a serious relationship. You don't find

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a serious relationship. You build a
serious relationship and you can find a partner

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in any of those places. I
often say love is far about, far

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more about skill than luck, and
so yeah, might be speed dating might

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not. All right. When we
come back, I am going to continue

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answering your questions. You are listening
to the Doctor Wendy Walls Show on KFI

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AM six forty. We're live everywhere
on the iHeartRadio app. You're listening to

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Doctor Wendy Walsh on demand from KFI
AM six forty. Hey have I am

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six forty. You have Doctor Wendy
Walsh with you. This is the Doctor

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Wendy Walsh Show. Oh my goodness, I'm going through my dms on social

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media. I cannot believe some of
the things that people are writing to me.

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I can believe them. There's no
right or wrong in life, folks.

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There is human experience and there are
lessons learned. And I'm here to

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be a flashlight in the tunnel of
love for you. Just a flashlight.

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You can decide what to do with
it. You can speed up that boat,

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slow it down, dive over the
side. I'll just be the flashlight

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for you. Okay. So,
dear doctor Wendy says this dude, I

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slept with my best friend's ex girlfriend
X not girlfriend ex girlfriend. I think

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she used me to hurt him.
Should I tell him what happened before she

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does? Ooh the tangled webs we
weave. So, no matter what,

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you're gonna be in trouble because you
forgot that you're not supposed to. I

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mean, like we even know that
as women, women never date a girlfriend's

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ex boyfriend or you're choosing him over
your girlfriend relationship. So you broke the

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dude code. You slept with his
ex girlfriend. So now you're going to

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try a little damage control. Well, if I tell him about it,

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and I'm up in front about it
and remind him that he broke up with

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her and she didn't mean anything and
this didn't mean anything to me too,

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then that'll be a lot better than
her calling him and going nan in and

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in and guancy why I slept win. Uh, I don't know what you

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should do. I don't think you
need to tell anybody anything. I really

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don't. You just need to go
to church and get on your knees.

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No, I'm go to confession.
He's not going to be happy with the

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news. Why should you be the
deliverer of bad news? You're not one

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hundred percent sure that she's gonna tell
him anyway. I just wait this one

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out and to see what happens.
You made your bed, you're gonna have

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to lie in it. We'll see
what happens. Okay, moving along,

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Dear doctor Wendy, how would you
go? Oh? A question for me?

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How would you go about getting physical
needs met while dating? For a

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serious relationship. The longer you make
them wait, the longer they stay.

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But I'm highly sexual. How do
I have both? You can't? Okay,

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listen, First of all, I
don't like this sentence making them wait.

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It's not about making, manipulating,
or playing a game with somebody.

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It should be during my assessment period
when I'm trying to determine if they would

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be appropriate to share my blood stream
and my eggs and my body with.

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Then I still feel aroused because I'm
excited. So let me tell you this.

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You can practice what is called auto
sexual behavior, and almost every human

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on the planet practices it. That's
sex with yourself, folks. You can

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do that. You can go get
a massage for the skin to skin touch,

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not to have sex with your massage
therapist, but just for the touch,

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the dopamine. You can get a
pet and pat your dog and there's

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more touch. Don't have sex with
your dog, I'm saying, I don't

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know if they can give consent.
Just that's the issue. But I don't

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want you to think that you're forcing
someone to wait as an active manipulation.

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If you're waiting to have sex,
it's because you want to focus on the

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emotional parts. And it's okay at
the beginning of a relationship to feel aroused

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and talk about it, but not
move forward, right, all right,

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moving right along here. Oh,
this is a fascinating question, Dear doctor

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Wendy. I feel like I'm in
competition with my man's dog. The dog

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doesn't like me and even sleeps in
between us when I spend the night.

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He thinks he I guess the boyfriend
thinks it's cute, but it gives me

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the X. How can I address
him about this? My biggest concern is

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that he will choose the dog over
my feelings. Okay, I don't have

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enough information. I don't know how
long you guys have been going out,

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whether it's a new relationship. I
don't know what your commitment level is.

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I don't know how often you sleep
over there, So I need a whole

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bunch more information. However, I'm
gonna tell you a story. So way

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back in the late nineteen eighties,
way back in olden times, I met

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a guy who was good looking and
smart and wealthy and had a gorgeous house.

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But he had these two darn German
shepherd dog who he treated like children.

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They were on little dog beds beside
his bed. You know, they

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all just spoiled, ratting, spoiled
ratting, these dogs. And I remember

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thinking, you know what, the
guy's good, the house is good.

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These dogs have got to go.
Jump forward five years, six years,

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six years. We were together five
years, then I move out. I

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missed the dog so darn much that
during the time when each of them eventually

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passed away, who do you think
was there nursing them, going to my

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ex boyfriend's house taking care of the
darn dogs. I ended up falling in

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love with these dogs more than the
man, I think, So just say,

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give it a chance. You never
know. However, if you want

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to have boundaries about where you sleep
and who sleeps and if dogs are allowed

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on the bed like that is kind
of ick for many people. So you

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tell them you bring it up.
It's a boundary for you, and if

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you can't get with the program,
then you got to decide what your reaction

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is going to be. That's on
you, Okay. Your concern is he's

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gonna choose the dog over your feelings. Well, if he does, then

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you have the information that you need, the information that he's not right for

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you. Oh oh, oh oh, I told you it gets this way

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near the end. Ah, Dear
doctor Wendy, I'm reading this as I'm

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going A pregnant woman just texted me
telling me she's seven months pregnant and that

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my boyfriend, a boyfriend is in
quotation marks is her fiance. I'm done

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with him, But should I tell
her everything? I mean, I don't

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want to stress out a pregnant woman. No, you've already said I'm done

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with him, And if you have
some compassion, you don't want to stress

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out a pregnant woman. You just
move along. If you're done with him

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and it's done, then it's done. So she's got a deal with that

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cheater. She's gonna have his baby, and there's a whole bunch of mess

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that's about to come in the future. This is not probably not a good

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guy, and you're probably not the
only one he's been sleeping with. So

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no, don't stress out the pregnant
woman. Just let it go, all

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right. When we come back,
I have been talking about journaling. You

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know, one of the things I
teach is health psychology, and there's so

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much research on the benefits to your
physical health and your mental health of just

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writing stuff down. So I had
producer Kayla tracked down the actual researcher who

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did all the early research on journaling, and I've got him with us when

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we come back. You are listening
to The Doctor Wendy Wall Show and KFI

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AM six forty. We're live everywhere
on the iHeartRadio app. You're listening to

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Doctor Wendy Walsh on demand from KFI
AM six forty. Welcome back to the

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Doctor Wendy Walls Show on KFI AM
six forty. We're live everywhere on the

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iHeartRadio app. You know, I
kind of fan girl a little bit when

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I get like great big brains on
my show, especially people who write about

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like literally do the research and write
about it so that I have something to

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teach, Because if I didn't have
good brains behind me, nothing would be

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coming out this mouth in the classroom. So I am thrilled to welcome doctor

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James Penna Baker. Thank you for
being with us. So nice to be

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here. And you're in Austin,
Texas right now, right, that's right.

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Well, I want to tell everybody
that you are a world famous professor

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of psychology because one of the things
that you have contributed to the science is

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our use of language and how it
impacts us. And in fact, back

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in the day, you were one
of the very first people to understand the

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connection between our writing I use the
term journaling, expressive writing, and even

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our physical health, our work performance, all kinds of things. And you

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know what you do is obviously related
to linguistics but also cognitive psychology. I

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would be remiss if I did not
say that you are the author and editor

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of a dozen books and over three
hundred articles. Some of your books include

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one called Expressive Writing Words that Heal
or how about this one opening up by

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writing it down? Ooh, I
love that title, How expressive writing improves

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health and eases emotional pain. And
we're going to get into it after the

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break. This book, The Secret
Life of Pronouns, What our words say

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about us Okay, Dr Pennebaker.
Everything starts out with a seed. It

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germinates, how did you come up
with this idea that language is so intrinsically

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related to our mental and physical health. You know, I didn't really have

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a seed. I was more I
stumbled across a finding that really intrigued me.

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I was doing some research on why
people report physical symptoms, and I

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was doing a book very early in
my career, and I thought, you

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know, I should have a questionnaire
that just get a sense of what kind

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of people report lots of symptoms.
So with my students, we sat around

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and we just generated questions that we
thought would be interesting. You know,

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how you eat, your relationship with
your parents, everything. And one of

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the people said, how about this, prior to the age of seventeen,

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did you ever have a traumatic sexual
experience? Yes? Or don't? And

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this questionnaire ended I've being went on
forever. We get handed out to about

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eight hundred college students, and that
sexual trauma question was completely different from anything

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I'd ever seen. People who endorsed
that and there was about fifteen percent of

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the students reporting that they had been
to the student health center at much higher

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race. They reported more physical symptoms, everything, major problems, minor problems.

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And I was steindling by that,
and then I was ended up contributing

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to an article that was going to
be in the magazine Psychology Today. And

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this was back in the days when
this was was the most amazing magazine around.

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And they put a questionnaire in the
actual article and they got to about

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twenty four thousand people who completed it. And these were people across the age

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spectrum, across the social class,
everything. And we analyzed some of the

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data and we found the same thing. Twenty two percent of women, eleven

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percent of men reported having had a
traumatic sexual experience prior to the age of

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seventeen. And those who endorse that
items were twice as likely to have been

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hospitalized in the previous year written in
the previous year for any cause. They're

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more likely to have been diagnosed with
high blood pressure with answer, with coal's

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flus, everything. It's amazing.
One of the things I teach is health

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psychology, and I try to teach
each my students this connection between trauma and

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indeed even our most intimate relationships and
our health. And so you were able

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to discover it. So how did
that move forward? To writing about trauma.

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I mean, I'll review by saying
that when we have such early trauma

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and sexual trauma tends to have so
much stigma attached to it, sometimes a

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lot of feelings of shame. And
I would venture to say that the body

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speaks for these people. In other
words, they can go and get care

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in a physical way and not be
shamed, not be stigmatized. But how

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did you now make this connection between
trauma and journaling and writing down our feelings.

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So, first of all, I
started interviewing some people, and also

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the editor of this article of psychology
today, I did the same if.

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What we both discovered was that people
who had had traumatic sexual experiences had kept

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them secret. And I later did
some more studies with it with non college

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to people. These were people in
a large corporation, and we found the

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same thing. And it didn't matter
what kind of trauma person had, any

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kind of trauma that they had kept
secret from others was associated with it with

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higher health risks. And so I
started wondering, well, if keeping a

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secret is so bad, what if
we just brought it in the lab and

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asked them to talk or write about
it. But you know, I'm not

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a clinical psychologist. I didn't want
to have them talking. I don't know

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how to respond, so I thought
I'll just have them come in and write

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about it. And that was the
beginning of it, and that first study

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it worked and it really changed my
life. And you know, it was

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one of those things I was just
going on a hunch that maybe just putting

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upsetting experiences into words could be kind
of the first step toward improved physical health.

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And there's all sorts of biological explanations, but the point is is that

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writing, as I started to discover, helps still the mind. It helps

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put things together for somebody, and
even the first nights after they write,

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they sleep better, they feel more
relaxed. It brings about a really significant

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change for a lot of people.
I remember reading somewhere that part of the

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miracle of journaling is that once you
write something down, now nobody puts that

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book away and never goes back to
it again. They reread what they've written,

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and when they read it, they've
now become a watcher, like they're

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in the audience watching a movie instead
of the victim experiencing it. Am I

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correct in saying that, you know
that's true for some people. In our

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studies, you know, and it's
interesting, I don't call my approach journaling,

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is journaling kind of implies doing it
all the time. We ended up

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calling it expressive writing and thinking of
it more as a way to deal with

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particular issues. And that in our
first studies we had people write four times,

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about fifteen minutes a time, and
these would be four consecutive days.

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And there have been hundreds of studies
done since, and it's not clear that

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there's a perfect number of times to
write. And what I tell others is,

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look, if you find yourself obsessing
about something, worrying about something,

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something is weighing on you, just
set aside three or four days and promise

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yourself to write for at least ten
or fifteen minutes about your deepest thoughts and

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feelings about this thing that's bothering you. And if after a couple of days

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you feel better you don't want to
write anymore. Great. If you want

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to keep it and reread it,
great. I think the majority of the

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people that I've studied actually don't go
back and read it interesting. They literally

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just get it out and then it's
out there. And I don't you know

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that metaphor of getting it out is
a complicated one. I think it's what

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it's doing is putting things together for
them. They now understand it. When

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the people who benefit, when when
I asked them why did they why was

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it so helpful, They'll say it
made me realize X, Y or Z,

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I now understand etc. In other
words, they're using these words.

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That's telling me and telling them that
they have put two and two together.

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They're putting things together that they hadn't
realized were were connected. I want to

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talk more about that. We have
to go to a break. I love

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this idea of taking it out of
the emotional brain and into the maybe the

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prefrontal cortex. You are listening to
the Doctor Wendy Wall Show. My guest

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is doctor James Pennabaker. He is
a Professor emeritus of psychology. He is

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at You're in Austin, Texas right
now, author of over twelve books and

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three hundred articles. Will have more
about expressive writing when we come back.

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You're listening to Doctor Wendy Walsh on
demand from KFI AM six forty. Thank

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God, Welcome back to the Doctor
Wendy Walls Show and KFI AM six forty

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Live everywhere. On the iHeartRadio app
my guest doctor James Penna Baker, one

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of the great thinkers in the world
of psychology. We're talking about expressive writing

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and the work that you did on
people who had suffered a lot of trauma,

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and that trauma was then connected to
terrible health outcomes, and then just

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by writing it down and not even
for that long fifteen minutes two or three

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or four days each day, was
in fact a way for them to process

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it, not just get it out, but move it maybe from being stuck

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in emotional trauma into analyzing it.
Is that correct? Yeah, I think

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that's the way I think about it. It is one thing that writing does

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a lot of things. It's not
just one simple psychological process. Part of

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it is just acknowledging it to yourself. Another is just translated into words.

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When you translate something into language,
it changes the way that it's organized in

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our minds, and it helps to
bring things together. And once all of

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that happens, one reason we obsess
about upsetting experiences is because we're trying to

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figure them out. Our brain is
doing this automatically, and once once we

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put it into words and we start
to understand it all of a sudden,

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our brain doesn't need to figure it
out. It is figured out, and

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we can move on. You know, you're talking to somebody who wrote three

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books for the mass market on dating
and relationships while I was single and struggling

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and trying to figure it out.
And it was funny because I'm about to

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get married in a few weeks.
And I remember when I first dating my

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guy. I would literally say to
myself, well, what would doctor Wendy

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say I should do? I would
think about what I'd written in my books

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as a life to live. Words
have so much power. I want to

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talk about one of your books,
The Secret Life of Pronouns. What our

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words say about us? Now?
I teach one lecture on gender at my

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college level, like undergraduate, and
I tell them about words, that words

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are a sign of respect. If
somebody prefers a certain word, If I

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got married this summer and came back
and said, don't call me doctor anymore,

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call me missus, they would do
it out of respect. And if

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somebody else asked to be called a
certain way, we should do it out

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of respect. We shouldn't be trying
to analyze do they deserve this word?

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Tell me what the big message is
in your book The Secret Life of Pronouns.

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So this all grew out of the
work I'd done in expressive writing.

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I was doing all this research trying
to figure out what is it about writing

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that makes such a big difference.
And I ended up going and looking at

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the essays that these people wrote,
and you know, sometimes they would write

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about really profound experiences sometimes and sometimes
they'd do it in a very kind of

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mechanical way. Sometimes they would just
be all over the place. And I

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got a group of clinical graduate students
to go through and write hundreds of these

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essays. And it turns out that
the way these these students were looking at

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the essays was just so inconsistent,
and it took forever, and it was

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not very effective. And it occurred
to me, maybe if I use some

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kind of computer program to analyze these
essays, I could get a better picture

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of who benefits from writing versus who
doesn't. And I, at the time,

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this was in the nineties, there
was no such program that was actually

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available or available at all that I
could find. And so I ended up

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working with one of my graduate students
who had had a background in computer science,

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and i'd done a little computer science
myself, and we ended up writing

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a computer program that would go through
and calculate the percentage of words in any

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given text. There were positive emotions, negative motions, cognitive words, etc.

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And as long as we were at
it, we threw in things that

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were really easy to count, words
like pronouns, prepositions in other parts of

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speech. In any case, we
went through started doing these analyzes and started

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to discover that people who benefited from
writing it wasn't what they wrote, it

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was how they were writing. In
other words, it wasn't the topic so

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much, and it could be a
major trauma, it could be just a

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minor annoyance in their life. But
the way they put it together and some

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of the things that came out,
you know, I just assume that people

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would benefit the most that they said
really horrible things, they lots of negative

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emotion. That's not the case.
We found that people benefited a lot if

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they just included kind of a moderate
number of negative emotion words and feelings.

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Also, the more that they could
express positive emotions while writing about Trump is

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they've benefited more. Yeah, those
nice buffers, those buffers against some of

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these stress soores, but are you
going to tell me that the pronoun I

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is important. I'm going to tell
you that in one second. But there

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was another thing that really popped out, and that was use of cognitive words.

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These are words like because, cause, effect, understand, realize,

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words that are suggesting some kind of
processing, and it's not just some kind

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of wrong amount, but it's increasing
over their writing. In other words,

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the people who benefit are trying to
put together a story, some kind of

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understanding and structure. In fact,
the person who came in on the first

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day of writing, and they already
had a very clear story of what's what

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happened, they didn't benefit at all. It was the people who when they

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came in at first it was almost
a jumble, but they started putting together

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and were struggling to come up with
the story. So that was one of

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the first things. Yeah, when
they described that, I hear the word

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realize, and then I realize that
my uncle was dangerous, right, and

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they're processing it as they're writing about
it. It's fascinating, that's right.

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And then the other thing that I
found was that these pronouns and these other

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kind of junk words that most of
us never pay attention to, had a

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huge impact in terms of how people
were writing, and specifically, I started

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to look at how people in general
use words in everyday life and everyday interactions,

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00:32:57.359 --> 00:33:00.720
and we could start to get a
real sense of people by the way

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00:33:00.759 --> 00:33:04.640
they're using words. And some of
these are pronouns. For example, an

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00:33:04.680 --> 00:33:09.920
obvious one is the more that people
in their emails or their everyday conversations,

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00:33:09.920 --> 00:33:15.119
the more they use pronouns like he, she, they, you, we,

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00:33:16.599 --> 00:33:22.839
They are more socially connected than people
who don't. And that's almost obvious,

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00:33:22.519 --> 00:33:25.759
but it's kind of interesting that you
don't need to questionnaire. You can

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00:33:25.799 --> 00:33:31.759
look at somebody's email and do an
analysis in a second and figure out that

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00:33:31.839 --> 00:33:37.519
this person really is interested in other
human beings. Wow, And I'm sure

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00:33:37.559 --> 00:33:42.480
social media is doing that. Those
companies, they're always scrolling through to figure

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00:33:42.480 --> 00:33:45.799
out who we are. Yeah,
that's exactly right, or at least they

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00:33:45.799 --> 00:33:49.799
have the capabilities to do that.
But then the word that ends up being

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00:33:50.319 --> 00:33:54.920
particularly powerful is the word I,
and for just first person singular pronouns in

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00:33:54.960 --> 00:34:00.000
general, I, me, mine, et cetera. And what's interesting about

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00:34:00.200 --> 00:34:05.359
this word is it doesn't reflect the
way we think. And I first stumbled

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00:34:05.359 --> 00:34:08.920
across this and looking at the differences
between men and women, and I've discovered

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00:34:10.159 --> 00:34:13.880
you know, if I ask most
people, they'll say, well, obviously

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00:34:14.000 --> 00:34:20.519
men use I more because they're narcissistic
self you know. But and it's true,

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00:34:20.559 --> 00:34:24.119
they are more narcissistic and more self
important. But narcissism is self importance

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00:34:24.239 --> 00:34:30.039
is not related to I. And
if you look at leadership, you would

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00:34:30.039 --> 00:34:34.400
think that somebody who's a leader would
use eyewords. No, a leader uses

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00:34:34.440 --> 00:34:40.440
eyewords less eye words reflect, It's
a they mark self reflection looking inward.

435
00:34:42.039 --> 00:34:45.559
A person who's sad or depressed uses
I words more than when they're not sad

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00:34:45.639 --> 00:34:50.599
or depressed, When you're anxious,
when you're self conscious, those are that

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00:34:50.639 --> 00:34:58.239
reflects that we are looking inward.
And what's so intriguing about this is just

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00:34:58.360 --> 00:35:01.159
by looking at this we can get
a sense of how a person feels about

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00:35:01.199 --> 00:35:05.599
themselves, and with other pronouns,
we can see the greed to which they

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00:35:05.639 --> 00:35:12.079
are connecting with others. So these
almost invisible words can tell us a lot

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00:35:12.119 --> 00:35:15.960
about others, but they can also
tell us about ourselves. If you look

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00:35:15.000 --> 00:35:23.039
at your own writing, you will
see that when you're writing to people that

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00:35:23.119 --> 00:35:30.480
you might feel anxious about you use
eyewords more. Now use this as information

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00:35:31.320 --> 00:35:37.119
you are probably when you do that, you're probably reflecting that relationship. And

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00:35:37.159 --> 00:35:42.840
in fact, this is true in
terms of relative status if you look at

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00:35:43.639 --> 00:35:47.119
interactions or emails. In fact,
we can go to letters, ancient letters

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00:35:47.280 --> 00:35:52.119
that were written in ancient Greek Greek
and we see the same things. When

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00:35:52.199 --> 00:35:57.760
somebody is writing to a higher status
person, they use a lot of eye

449
00:35:57.840 --> 00:36:01.360
words, and if a high status
person is writing to a lower status person,

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00:36:01.679 --> 00:36:07.039
they don't use many I words.
That's so fascinating, especially when you

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00:36:07.079 --> 00:36:09.679
think about how people text back and
forth on dating apps, and you'll see

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00:36:09.679 --> 00:36:14.639
who will be who thinks they're the
higher value mate. Doctor Pennabaker, I

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00:36:15.320 --> 00:36:17.679
here's one thing that I, as
I talk to somebody of a higher status,

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00:36:17.719 --> 00:36:22.519
hate about radio. Our time is
so limited. I want to close

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00:36:22.599 --> 00:36:25.679
simply by saying that this is amazing. And if there's any takeaway for our

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00:36:25.760 --> 00:36:30.599
listeners, it is you know,
don't keep secrets. You don't have to

457
00:36:30.599 --> 00:36:34.880
share them with people, but write
them down, even if it's fifteen minutes

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00:36:34.880 --> 00:36:37.280
a day for a few days,
and be aware if you're saying I to

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00:36:37.360 --> 00:36:42.880
people, it means you respect them
and I am grateful you've been with us.

460
00:36:42.960 --> 00:36:45.239
Doctor Pennabaker, thank you so much. Well, thank you, and

461
00:36:45.280 --> 00:36:50.840
I've enjoyed this and that brings a
Doctor Wendy Walls show to a close.

462
00:36:50.880 --> 00:36:54.440
I'm always here from seven to nine
pm every Sunday night right here on KFI

463
00:36:54.719 --> 00:37:01.199
AM six forty and live everywhere on
the iHeartRadio app. You've been listening to

464
00:37:01.239 --> 00:37:05.400
Doctor Wendy Walsh. You can always
hear us live on KFI A M six

465
00:37:05.480 --> 00:37:08.519
forty from seven to nine p m
on Sunday and any time on demand on

466
00:37:08.599 --> 00:37:09.760
the iHeartRadio app