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You're listening to the Mind over Murder
podcast. My name is Bill Thomas.

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I'm a writer, consulting, producer, and now podcaster. I am now

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trying to use my experience as the
brother of a murder victim to help other

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victims of violent crime. I'm working
on a book on the unsolved Colonial Parkway

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murders and I'm the co administrator of
the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook group together with

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Kristin Dilley. My name is Kristin
Dilley. I'm a writer, a researcher,

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a teacher, and a victim's advocate, as well as the social media

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manager and co administrator for the Colonial
Parkway Murders Facebook page with my partner in

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crime, Bill Thomas. Welcome to
Mind of a Murder. I'm Kristin Dilley

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and I'm Bill Thomas, and we're
joined today by author, a podcaster,

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and journalist Richard Foster to talk to
us about his books Southern Nightmare The Hunt

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for the South Side Strangler, which
is our book club selection for July.

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Richard, thank you so much for
joining us today. Thank you glad to

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be here. Richard. We were
talking about this off air. We've been

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talking about having you on Mind over
Murder for three years, and it's our

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failing that we haven't had you off
until now. No, not at all,

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we were saying, I've been fairly
busy for the last several years,

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so it's not a problem. I'm
looking forward to it. Start by telling

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us a little bit about your professional
background. I had been in journalism and

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communications for a little over thirty years. I started working as i'm working journalists

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when I was still in college at
Virginia Commonwealth University writing for the Richmond Times

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Dispatch. I was a reporter on
their state desk and business desk, and

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when I was still in college.
Over the years, I've worked for several

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daily papers. I've been an editor
for a news site, City magazine,

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and I'm currently editor of Virginia Business
Magazine, which is a monthly glossy.

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And over the years done a little
bit of everything. I've written a couple

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of books. I've done a lot
of investigative writing, profiles, government reporting,

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entertainment, write a little bit of
everything. Now, are you one

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of those people, Richard, that
knew what you wanted to do ever since

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you were a kid? Yes?
And no. I think I had an

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epiphany when I was about nineteen or
so where I realized that I did know

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and hadn't been paying attention to it. I was one of those guys that

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was in garage bands and stuff and
was thinking I was going to be in

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rock and roll and whatnot. But
then when I started getting into taking college

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a little more seriously in my late
teens, I started thinking. And I

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got into my first journalism class and
loved it. I started thinking, I've

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been doing this all along, now
that I think about it, Yeah,

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I was a newspaper when I was
in middle school, and I've done some

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writing like this for different things.
And a light bulb went off that yeah,

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I've been writing my whole life in
one form or another, and I

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like this, And yeah, Satherday
Nightmare is not your only book. Tell

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us about your book about Betty Page. Yeah, so, Bland is an

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interesting story. It has done very
well. It came out in nineteen ninety

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eight and was adapted into a film
by HBO, which actually got released in

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theaters called A Notorious Betty Page.
Some people may have seen that movie.

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I've got a credit all the way
at the very end of the movie.

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I think solely because they remembered the
very last minute they contractually had to put

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that. I've collected comic books as
a kid, was really loved art,

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had gone to a lot of different
comic book stores and had started in the

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early nineties seeing these fanzines about Betty
Page. And I didn't know who Betty

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Page was. Of course, I
knew the rocketeer those comics, Dave Stevens,

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and I didn't realize, oh,
hey, that's who that's where he

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got his hair win for his comic
from. And Yeah, I read a

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little bit and found out that there
was this mystery that she had appeared.

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I started thinking, I'm gonna do
a little piece about the fan following,

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local fan following, and then I
dug in and I ended up finding out

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she has a brother in Nashville and
she's still alive, and ended up getting

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the first interview with her. Went
from there, I ended up writing a

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biography of her. Did you end
up meeting with miss Page face to face?

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Never did? Yeah, she sent
me one letter. It was the

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sixth page, very nicely unlined,
stationary. Every line is sharp and steady,

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and perfect primanship of this former English
teacher. She had been at one

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point in her life, but you
know, I never did, and I

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have friends who did and people I
know who did. But she was not

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happy with my reporting some of the
details of her life, and I'll be

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as upfront about that as I can
be. It turned out that this became

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a true crime book because she had
alluded to that she had some troubles during

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her time and didn't want to talk
about on it. And as I dug

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and started talking to people, I
found out she had some severe mental health

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crises and had actually stabbed some people, and it nearly stabbed a roommate to

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death. In fact, it led
to California changing some laws around matching roommates

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for elderly people. And I was
still debating on whether or not to write

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that story when I interviewed thee a
survivor of one of her attacks, and

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you could still hear her name was
Leoni had Dodd, and I get chills,

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thinking aboud you could still hear how
scared she was. And I would

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have talked to her probably thirteen fourteen
years after that attack, maybe more,

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I can't quite remember, and she
still obviously was still traumatized. And I

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think that's when I realized there are
victims involved, and that this is a

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bigger story and it's not just her
story, and I decided to tell the

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full story. So she was a
lot more than just a fifties pin up

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and burlesque claim, and she was
very She was an iconic. She still

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had inspired tons of fashion photographers and
diviners and all kinds of you'll see her

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influence and image everywhere once you see
it. But yeah, it was a

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more difficult story. They're more human
story and fascinating story. But unfortunately,

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not everyone wants that story. I
think a lot of people just want to

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sanitize safe, cute, pin up
model story. And I think if you

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want that's there. There's other versions
of that out there without all the other

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details. But yeah, there's more
to it, for sure. Speaking of

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incredibly complex stories, let's go ahead
and talk a little bit about Southern Nightmare.

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The tagline for the book is the
Hunt for the South Side Strangler.

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For anybody who's unfamiliar, can you
give just a brief summary of the south

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Side Strangler case please? The bulk
of the case takes place about thirty five

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years ago, when I was kind
of summer and fall of when I was

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about sixteen years old nineteen eight seven. From September through November, four women

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were killed in Richmond and in the
Northern Virginia. They were killed in their

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homes brutally. It was bondage murders, really horrible, and it set the

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whole I remember being a teenager.
The entire city was terrified. The story

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ended up being a bigger story than
that because there actually had been another murder

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that predated those back in eighty four, and there were a string of other

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attacks that were linked to these murders
later. The amazing thing about this case

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is it was not only the first
case in American history where DNA solved a

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murder, but the first case where
DNA solved a serial killing. It was

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both. It was just astounding.
It's a historic case. It's taught at

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criminal justice universities and classes. It
deserves to be a lot better known.

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And that really is something that was
a theme with all of our comments on

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our Facebook page. A lot of
people said, why don't I know about

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this case? This is so historic
and so interesting. Why do you think

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the South Side strangler murders have not
received their proper place in the history of

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true crime injustice in this country?
I can't say entirely for sure why that

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is. It's not the first case
in the world. There was one other

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case that predated it, Colin Pitchfork
in England, which that name you couldn't

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take a better name for a serial
killer. And that guy is actually out

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on parole right now. For those
of us who follow the UK papers,

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he has been paroled, which is
a little mind blowing. I'm not sure

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I have a great answer why the
case has been forgotten. I think there

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was one book written about it back
in the nineties that was very a little

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didactic, that was really heavy into
the DNA and the science that maybe just

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didn't catch the audience that should have. Perhaps, and somehow this also,

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I think the case was solved,
which sometimes the unsolved cases tend to be

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the ones that get a little more
attention. I don't know, I really

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don't know, but it's one that
definitely deserves to be known more, and

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I hope I've done my part in
trying to get it out there. As

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Kristen says, there were a lot
of questions and discussion on our social media

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pages about this. Why don't I
know about this case? Why haven't I

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heard about this case, and the
fact that it was so innovative from a

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forensic perspective, I think the factors
you've cited are certainly part of it.

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I also wonder if this had happened
in a larger city, if that might

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have made a difference, if Richmond
was just a little too small, Not

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that I consider Richmond a small town. Far from it. Yeah, it

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got national coverage. It did get
national coverage where the arrest was made.

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I know, I've seen clips and
from Time Magazine, from others. I

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know that it got some national coverage
during the trials. Certainly we talk a

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little bit later. But Patricia Cornwell, the famous bestselling crime novelist. Her

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first book was a very loosely adapted, fictionalized version of these murders and inspired

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her on a career. I'm not
exactly sure why these got lost to memory,

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and they it's a case that deserves
to be known. What is it

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that sparked your interest in the case. Is it just because you remembered it

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and you lived through it, Has
it always stayed with you, or is

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there something more to it than that. There were a few factors at the

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time. In twenty seventeen, I
had a friend who was an editor at

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Style Weekly magazine here in Richmond,
which is an alternative weekly, and I

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was a reporter there back in the
mid nineties. They were looking to do

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something. They weren't sure what they
wanted to do, but they wanted to

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do some kind of series, something
true crime. They weren't sure what the

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story was. We all went away
and did a little brainstorming, and within

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a couple of days it became really
obvious what the story was because we all

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came upon it independently. We need
to do the South Side strangler story.

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Because one of the victims had been
an employee at Style. I did not

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work with her because that she would
have been killed about ten years before I

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worked there, But she was friends
of mine, people that I still in

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touch with today. So I think
there was that little feeling of there was

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one of our own who needed to
be remembered. But I think also it

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quickly became we realized, Okay,
the thirtieth anniversary of this case is coming

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up. In fact, the more
we dug into it, we realized it

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was the thirtieth anniversary of the trials
were coming up. We're already in the

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middle of the thirtieth anniversary of the
killings. That whole fall. During the

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thirtieth anniversary of the killings, I
was talking to a lot of people who

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were connected with it, survivors,
homicide detectives, FBI agents, family members,

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going to some of the places where
the murders had taken place. I

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really spent a lot of that Fall
of twenty seventeen and Winner of twenty eighteen

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doing a lot of research and a
lot of interviews. Talk to us a

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little bit about that research process.
How do you go about getting all your

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information for a book like this?
Is it just interviews or do you have

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to dig into the microfish or turn
to Google? What do you do when

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you're ready to sit down and work
on a project. This one, I

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will say, was a lot easier
than doing the Betty Page book, which

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I had written in the early to
mid nineties, because that one, I

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had to go to the Library of
Congress to get access to some newspapers that

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were only available on microfish, and
we're not at my local library. It

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was. There was no Internet when
I did that, and you had to

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use these reverse phone directories to look
up where people had lived and where they

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went and what their names and numbers
were look up all census records. It

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was a great exercise back then.
I learned a lot in tracking people and

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figuring things out with the Internet,
with the resources we have today makes things

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a lot easier. I did have
to go to the Library of Virginia in

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person to track down some old contemporaneous
tapes from WRVA radio their reportings of the

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murders and the trials. So I
was able to find some of that,

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but a lot of it. I
was able to find some archives online,

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like from our local paper of record, the Richard Times Dispatch and it's afternoon

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paper which is no longer with us, the Newsleader, and they of course

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had done a ton of reporting back
then. Dial Weekly of course had done

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some too, and I had some
of their materials. And another thing I

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really looked out on one of my
predecessors at Style, another reporter, Lisa

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Bacon. She had covered the trial
unknown to me. She's come over by

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my house. I've got some stuff
you might want to look at. Oh

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wow, okay, So I go
over and sit down with Lisa. She

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has the entire trial transcript and which
not even the courthouses had anymore. Phenomenal.

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She had all of this, She
had all of this stuff and had

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hung onto it. That was probably
that was a tremendous resource because it listed

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names at listed witnesses, it listed
direct testimony. It was fantastic. Well,

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she excited about the fact that you
were working on a new project.

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Oh yeah, yeah, Lisa was
Yeah's We've worked in so many places.

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She was also a reporter at Virginia
Business where I am now. She was

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a reporter at Style. Yeah,
Lisa, I think has always been a

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big It's always been in my court. She was really happy to help.

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But it was great at getting to
hear because she had covered the court case,

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so I got her insights and that
first hand perspective of what it was

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like and what she remembered. And
of course you'll see in the book her

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recollections because I interviewed her for this
and she stepped in the Style. I

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think she went to work for Style
like two weeks after the murder took place,

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and she talked about she came into
this place two weeks after Debbie Davis,

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who was the person at Style who
had been murdered, and she said

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it was just like walking and someplace
that had a bomb thrown and everybody was

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just walking around like zombies. And
of course they would be again murder case.

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There's gonna be a lot of downard
moments. But it was a great

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exercise and I met some really fascinating
people, and that an FBI agent who

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had also worked on the Atlanta child
murders and had some really interesting thoughts and

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perspective on that that, you know, I just got to hear. And

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of course the two detectives, the
two homicide detectives, one from Arlington,

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one from Richmond. Joe Horgis from
up in Arlington, and Ray Williams,

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who is no longer with us.
Ray was the detective primary detective Richmond.

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Both of them were very were retired
and both were very generous with their time.

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These tapes that you found yourself going
through, Richard, where were they

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stored in? What format? Were
you listening to the w RVA tapes?

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Yes, they were on cassette.
Somehow they were digitized as well. I

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can't quite remember. Somehow I got
to legetized version of them. Sorry,

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this is going to be where it's
five years later, and lots of stuff

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that happened since it's hard to remember
all the details, but yeah, I

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know I worked with the librarians there, the research librarians of the Library of

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Virginia, who were stellar, and
yeah, they helped me find a lot

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of us and they have excellent archives
there. Yeah, shout out to the

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Library of Virginia because they are amazing. If there's anybody like in our local

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listening area who's never had a chance
to go to the Library of Virginia,

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do it. It is so cool, such a great resource for us to

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have. Now help me out as
a person that doesn't live in Virginia.

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Who runs the Library of Virginia.
Is this a state facility or state Yes,

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that's a state one. But it's
wonderful because they bring in lots of

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guest speakers. Our friend Kate Miles
was speaking at the Library of Virginia a

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couple of months back about her book
Trailed, and they're really great about making

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sure that it's open and accessible to
everybody through guest speakers and everything's very cool.

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Yeah. Beth Mace see one of
my former co workers at Roma Times

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who wrote Dope Sick. I think
she's been there and not too recent past.

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Yeah, let's get into the Patricia
Cornwell of it all because you did

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mention her before. Sure, So
she did use the south Side strangler cases

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a model for her first book,
Post Mortem, much in the same way

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that she would later use to Colonial
Parkway murders as a model for All that

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remains. Have you read Postmortem?
And if so, can you assess how

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accurately she depicted the South Side stranglings. I'm just gonna be upfront and say

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no, I have not read it. I flipped through it selectively to look

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for certain information. Patricia Cornwell she
lived here in Richmond for a long time.

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A lot of people my parents' generation
were huge fans of her, and

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a lot of people I knew older
journalists knew her, but they all called

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her Patsy. I have never met
her. I flipped selectively through post Mortum

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to get a little taste of what
where it was going. She had a

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tremendous front row seat because she was
working in the State Medical Examiner's office at

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that time. A lot of people
don't know that she or they probably do.

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Around here, they know it not
so much maybe elsewhere. But she

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based her case Scarpetta character on doctor
Fierro, our State Medical exam or,

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a former State Medical Examiner who I
interviewed for the book and who worked on

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this case or the entire Southside strangler
case. And yeah, Patricia Cornwell,

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she had a front row seat working
there in the Medical Examiner's office, and

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of course she had been a local
newspaper reporter before that. I think had

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a good eye for detail and was
inspired to write this case. I think

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it is probably very fictionalized what I
saw of it, well, I think

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there may be a few details.
I don't think it's way you know,

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she's got a lot of stuff about
odor and the killer being this diabolical mastermind

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who's out menacing the medical examiner,
and none of that is truely. I

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think it's sufficiently fictionalized beyond just some
very basics that it's a bondage bondage murders

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and things. And doctor Fierro also
worked on the Colonial Parkway murders and I've

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spoken to her as well some years
back now, and she's a wonderful person

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and incredibly helpful. Why could you
learn a lot talking to an expert like

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that, and she is amazing.
I did a profile on her years ago

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for Richard Magazine when she was still
State Medical examiner. It was frustrating because

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she won't let you see her work, not allowed him because she this is

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not entertainment. She was the best
advocate for quote unquote her patients. She

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did not see them as bodies or
objects. She saw them as people.

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That murder victim was somebody's mother.
She treated them like a patient and she

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God bless her. She was amazing
expert forensic pathologists that we were very lucky

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to have in this state, and
amazing woman, just fascinating. We have

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opinions Bill and I about Patricia Cronwell's
work because she very obviously based all that

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it remains on the Colonial Parkway murders, and that is something that we don't

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feel should be used as entertainment.
So I'm just curious. Do you have

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an opinion about using real crime as
a basis for fictional work. Yeah,

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look, I'm going to come at
this from saying I don't. Obviously,

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I can understand where Bill's coming from
completely. I very much respect where Bill

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is as a family member of a
murder victim, having also had someone close

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to me murdered. That we're fictionalized, I don't know how I would feel

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that said, I think just looking
at it from a literary basis and also

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as a writer myself, I think
you can't help. But lots and lots

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of writers, almost going back to
the dawn of detective fiction, have used

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true cases as an inspiration to write
from. I think there's a million pastiches

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of Sherlock Holmes modern interpretations. Holmes
meets Jack the Ripper and tracks them down.

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And I'm pretty sure Arthur Conan Doyle
took some inspiration for some of his

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Holmes cases from some real things too. Yeah, I think I guess the

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question is it sufficiently fictionalized? Is
there a sufficient distance? Are you doing

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harm? I think those are all
questions that probably should be asked. I

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think Patricia Cornwell was writing almost contemporaneously. Her book about Southside strangling killings came

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out what a year or two after
the killings. It was very and I

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think the same thing with the Parkway. I don't think there was a lot

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of distance. It's about three years. And here's one area where I'll push

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back solved versus unsolved. There's a
lot of myths now that have gotten mixed

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in with the Colonial Parkway murders,
and many of them started with Patricia Cornwell,

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and all that remains in terms of
creating confusion kind of urban myths that

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have become part of this case.
When you start drilling down, you realize,

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oh, this is in the book, and people read the book and

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they think that's an accurate telling of
the Colonial Parkway murders story, which obviously

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it's not. And then we can
let this topic go because I don't want

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to turn this into a rant.
There is a tremendous amount of detail in

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all that remains that is lifted directly
from excruciating detail that only someone would access,

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would be able to write with this
level of specificity, particularly about issues

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and details that didn't even come out
until later. They may have come out

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in the years since because I've been
outspoken, Kristen and other family members have

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been outspoken in our interviews as we
continue to pressure the FBI and the Virginia

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State Police, and so more detail
has come out about those murders in the

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thirty plus years since. I think
there's a big difference in if you're writing

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a story that's about a case that's
solved or a case that is hundreds of

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years ago, like Jack the Ripper. Sure, yeah, and I agree.

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Yeah, And again I think it
comes down to that are you doing

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harm? Are you putting information out
there that could harm a case? I

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can't speak because I've never written fiction, so I can't speak from that side

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of the fence, But I can
say having been a journalist, I have

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been privy sometimes to things that I've
known that the general public doesn't know about

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murders or about certain cases when I've
been asked, hey, we need you

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not to say that. And that's
sometimes where in journalism you get to make

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little deals where okay, okay,
I cannot say that. Can you give

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me something else I can use or
something? And that's part of the back

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00:23:36,200 --> 00:23:40,519
and forth you develop with sources.
Yeah, there's definite times when you have

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to realize there's a public good to
consider as well. Yeah, that's concerning

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if there are details there that should
not be there. You're listening to Mind

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over Murder will be right back after
this word from our sponsors. We're back

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00:23:59,480 --> 00:24:04,240
here at Andover Murder Now. Southern
Nightmare not only was a fantastic book,

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00:24:04,279 --> 00:24:07,880
but it was also a podcast as
well. And so what were your goals

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00:24:07,960 --> 00:24:12,640
ultimately for the book and for the
podcast. Was it just to bring awareness

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00:24:12,680 --> 00:24:17,079
to the case, or do you
have other goals in mind when you sat

325
00:24:17,119 --> 00:24:21,359
down to write this and then to
bring it to the podcast space. I

326
00:24:21,400 --> 00:24:26,319
think initially we were just looking to
tell a good story. I think we

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00:24:26,720 --> 00:24:30,519
saw, okay, that there's the
story that really has not that's been forgotten.

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00:24:30,240 --> 00:24:33,720
One of the people who worked at
Style was a victim of this.

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00:24:34,119 --> 00:24:37,240
We think, Okay, thirty years
later, all of the people who were

330
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connected with it are getting a lot
older. We may be losing some of

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them. We did lose Ray Williams
died not too long after the podcast aired,

332
00:24:47,480 --> 00:24:49,920
so we knew we were under a
little bit of a ticking clock there.

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So yeah, I would say from
a journalistic perspective, we were looking

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00:24:52,839 --> 00:24:56,400
to tell a good story that had
been forgotten. However, once I got

335
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into the digging in and started looking
at this talking to people, and realized

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what a second this made me the
first case in US history solved with DNA.

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What's going on here? Why don't
more people know about this? And

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so then I think it became a
little background on me. My father was

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deputy chief of the county. I
lived in Henrico County. He was a

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00:25:18,119 --> 00:25:23,359
thirty year some thirty some year police
veteran, and I grew up interest in

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the law enforcement. Never really considered
his career because my dad just told me

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he didn't want me to do in
that. But I think I had always

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had an interest in crime and law
enforcement all that, just because having my

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00:25:34,319 --> 00:25:37,839
dad and hearing stories and things.
When I heard okay, we had the

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first case DNA right here in Richmond
and nobody remembers it, I'm thinking,

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this is the story. This is
the story that needs to be told.

347
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This story needs to be brought back
to the public consciousness and given some real

348
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given some real prominence. Did the
book come first or did the podcast come

349
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first? The podcast came first,
and then the book came very fast behind

350
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it. I had a media partnership
deal with Style. I did this independently

351
00:26:03,640 --> 00:26:08,160
of Style as my own enterprise,
but I had a deal with them where

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they would get an excerpt, a
written excerpt each week from the podcast.

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For ten weeks we had the episodes
airing. Style was airing installments of the

354
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stories, which started with a cover
story in Style, and we kicked it

355
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off with a live event at VCU, and then once we finished, I

356
00:26:26,720 --> 00:26:30,920
had a live show where we did
the last episode and a live performance,

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and then after that I decided,
I've got all this material here. I

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think I can make a book out
of this. I've already written a lot,

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and I was still piecing together some
things like, for instance, you'll

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hear in the podcast. I was
equivocating on the DNA a little bit because

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I wasn't sure because there was another
case that was going through right at the

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same time, more or less as
the as the Southside strangler case. So

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there was some question from different people
about, Okay, which one was the

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first? I believe me. I
was still doing interviews, still doing research.

365
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Sometimes as a basis of things that
were being aired, I would get

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calls from people saying, oh,
hey, you didn't interview. I was

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still doing reporting all the way up
to the very end of the podcast,

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and it was crazy outside of work. Outside of my full time job I

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had then, I was working probably
another twenty thirty hours more a week at

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nights and weekends. By the time
all of this finished, I had collected

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enough information and was able to definitively
say yes, this was the first DNA

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case. I'd been able to do
enough digging, and also I just had

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so many little things that we didn't
have room for in the podcast, so

374
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many little things that got left on
the cutting room floor, so many interesting

375
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little tangents and side things I dug
up that I think it made for some

376
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extra material in the book that I
think if you liked the podcast, you'll

377
00:27:48,319 --> 00:27:51,000
still find some new stuff in the
book. Let's go ahead and turn to

378
00:27:51,079 --> 00:27:55,440
listener questions about Southern Nightmare. I
want to start with the first question,

379
00:27:55,480 --> 00:27:59,640
and this is from fellow author Lindsay
Wade, who just had a book come

380
00:27:59,640 --> 00:28:03,559
out and whose book is actually going
to be our next pick for our book

381
00:28:03,559 --> 00:28:07,599
club. So Lindsay rates, My
question is whether or not there has been

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00:28:07,720 --> 00:28:15,240
confirmation that Timothy Spencer's DNA was added
to Virginia's DNA database. The database was

383
00:28:15,279 --> 00:28:18,319
created in nineteen eighty nine and he
was executed in nineteen ninety four. I'm

384
00:28:18,359 --> 00:28:22,720
curious if Virginia went back and collected
from death row inmates after the database went

385
00:28:22,720 --> 00:28:27,279
into effect. Since this is not
always the case, I don't know for

386
00:28:27,559 --> 00:28:33,319
certain. I would think yes,
but I'm not certain. Doctor Paul Ferreira,

387
00:28:33,680 --> 00:28:37,200
who unfortunately is no longer with us, he was director of the Virginia

388
00:28:37,240 --> 00:28:42,799
Department of Forensic Science, and he
established that databank, which again another first,

389
00:28:42,799 --> 00:28:47,759
that Virginia created the first DNA database
in the country, and that's what

390
00:28:47,960 --> 00:28:52,160
the FBI's database ended up getting based
on. And he established that here,

391
00:28:52,359 --> 00:28:56,359
and it was established more or less
as a direct result of the South Side

392
00:28:56,359 --> 00:29:00,799
strangler case. So I would have
to think that because that case was what

393
00:29:00,920 --> 00:29:04,880
kicked it off. And also they
knew that there were other attacks. There

394
00:29:04,880 --> 00:29:10,640
were a string of rapes in addition
to the five murders, and they did

395
00:29:10,720 --> 00:29:14,559
find those connections, they did make
connections to some of those where there was

396
00:29:14,599 --> 00:29:17,960
some evidence left. Yeah, I
would think it would have to be I'm

397
00:29:17,960 --> 00:29:22,640
only going to push back lightly here
because I can't comment specifically about Virginia,

398
00:29:22,759 --> 00:29:29,759
but we have been disappointed numerous times
in that people who you would think,

399
00:29:29,839 --> 00:29:33,240
I'm talking about convicted killers, people
on death row, people that have even

400
00:29:33,319 --> 00:29:38,440
been executed, whose DNA is not
in the system in the way that you

401
00:29:38,640 --> 00:29:45,440
would think it should be for a
variety of reasons. And there's an undercurrent

402
00:29:45,640 --> 00:29:52,400
here nationally that there are tens of
thousands of people whose DNA clearly belongs in

403
00:29:52,759 --> 00:29:59,319
the CODIS system and their DNA is
not in the system, including people that

404
00:29:59,359 --> 00:30:03,680
are currently incarcerated on death row now
and the States, And again, this

405
00:30:03,880 --> 00:30:08,559
is not a shot at Virginia and
it's not a comment about Virginia per se.

406
00:30:10,079 --> 00:30:15,759
The States are completely dropping the ball. Is it a resources issue?

407
00:30:15,759 --> 00:30:19,519
Bill? Is? It's a lot
of It's a lot of different things.

408
00:30:19,559 --> 00:30:26,319
There are questions about whether or not
it's legal to go back and collect people's

409
00:30:26,400 --> 00:30:30,160
DNA, potentially forcibly. In other
words, some of these people are refusing

410
00:30:30,519 --> 00:30:36,720
to allow their DNA to be taken. And there's question particularly at the state

411
00:30:36,799 --> 00:30:40,279
level in various states around the country, as to whether or not you can

412
00:30:40,319 --> 00:30:45,319
obligate someone to be forced to give
their DNA. I thought that had already

413
00:30:45,319 --> 00:30:48,519
been settled. Yeah, that's interesting. Yeah, that's something that wasn't aware

414
00:30:48,599 --> 00:30:53,160
of. That's fascinating. Yeah,
it's very disturbing. And yeah, because

415
00:30:53,279 --> 00:30:59,839
look at the Golden State killer.
So many cases in different jurisdictions. That

416
00:31:00,119 --> 00:31:04,160
case was similar to this one in
that he was committing crimes sometimes what an

417
00:31:04,160 --> 00:31:08,000
hour or two apart, an hour
or two drives apart, just like this

418
00:31:08,039 --> 00:31:12,079
one, and they didn't realize that
those were connected, just like this one.

419
00:31:12,319 --> 00:31:15,960
And then some of those got connected, the dots got connected by DNA

420
00:31:17,039 --> 00:31:21,720
and with a propensity for repeat offenders. Yeah, I'm with you. It

421
00:31:21,759 --> 00:31:23,480
seems to me to be a no
brainer that these people should be in the

422
00:31:23,559 --> 00:31:26,720
database. Our next question is from
Sarah Gee. It's a bit of a

423
00:31:26,799 --> 00:31:30,039
long one, so I need a
preface. So Sarah Gee asks, the

424
00:31:30,160 --> 00:31:36,759
Diane show case really bugs me.
It was completely different from the other crimes.

425
00:31:36,960 --> 00:31:41,799
There were two hypotheses proposed in the
book. Lewis Leshender said that it

426
00:31:41,839 --> 00:31:45,839
was possible and escalation in risk behavior, which is not uncommon in serial killers,

427
00:31:45,960 --> 00:31:49,599
and to one of the detectives said
maybe Spencer thought Dan was a young

428
00:31:49,680 --> 00:31:52,880
single woman because her parents worked so
much and we're out of the house.

429
00:31:53,200 --> 00:31:57,799
Sarah is curious about which theory you
hold with for this case. Richard,

430
00:31:59,200 --> 00:32:02,599
I think what we do know of
serial killers, what I have learned from

431
00:32:02,599 --> 00:32:08,759
talking with criminal justice experts, they
do escalate in me or one thing leads

432
00:32:08,759 --> 00:32:15,960
to another for various reasons. I
cannot say myself. I don't think Timothy

433
00:32:15,000 --> 00:32:17,799
Spencer, the South Side strangler,
was the kind of person that would have

434
00:32:17,839 --> 00:32:21,640
cared how old a person was.
I don't think that mattered to him.

435
00:32:21,680 --> 00:32:24,880
I think what mattered to him was
did that person did the idea of attacking

436
00:32:24,920 --> 00:32:30,319
them push his buttons? And were
they an easy person to attack? Could

437
00:32:30,359 --> 00:32:36,359
he access them? And I think
she was vulnerable because simply because she had

438
00:32:37,119 --> 00:32:39,039
there was a way to get into
her room. Her parents were not there

439
00:32:39,119 --> 00:32:43,119
very often, so it looked like
a woman who was on her own,

440
00:32:43,279 --> 00:32:46,000
or at least I think it was
more about Again, I think a lot

441
00:32:46,039 --> 00:32:51,880
of times with serial killers, people
want things to make sense. They want

442
00:32:51,880 --> 00:32:54,599
there to be some kind of logic
what they do. Sometimes they are just

443
00:32:54,720 --> 00:33:00,440
monsters. Sometimes there are just people
who just want to do awful things because

444
00:33:00,599 --> 00:33:06,000
it gets them excited. And that's
not a great thing. That's not something

445
00:33:06,039 --> 00:33:09,519
that anybody really wants to accept or
believe, and it's and I think she

446
00:33:09,799 --> 00:33:15,960
unfortunately was vulnerable and he saw those
vulnerabilities. Very good question from Sarah.

447
00:33:16,000 --> 00:33:20,680
So we have two from Amber.
The first one I thought was particularly interesting

448
00:33:20,720 --> 00:33:23,720
because I love theme questions. She
says, nightmares are obviously a theme throughout

449
00:33:23,759 --> 00:33:29,000
the book. Did you have any
nightmares during your research and writing process for

450
00:33:29,079 --> 00:33:34,039
this? This is tough material,
It is short answer. Yes, I

451
00:33:34,079 --> 00:33:38,160
don't know that I could say necessarily
what they were, just because I don't

452
00:33:38,200 --> 00:33:42,559
know that I remember, but I
know I had some. I think it

453
00:33:42,759 --> 00:33:49,279
is very difficult to live, breathe, eat, sleep this for I did

454
00:33:49,279 --> 00:33:52,799
it for about thirteen fourteen months between
when I started the research on the project

455
00:33:52,960 --> 00:33:58,079
and published the book. Yeah,
it is awful stuff that sticks in your

456
00:33:58,079 --> 00:34:04,319
head and you think about this case
in particular, spoke to somebody who violated

457
00:34:04,400 --> 00:34:08,079
home and hearth, who violated the
safety and sanctity of people's homes. It

458
00:34:08,199 --> 00:34:13,559
was such a violation just not only
their bodies, and they're just the basic

459
00:34:13,719 --> 00:34:17,039
decency of everything, of just what
you expect to be safe when you're in

460
00:34:17,039 --> 00:34:21,280
your own home. And I think, yeah, it's hard not to feel

461
00:34:21,320 --> 00:34:23,880
that and to feel the fear and
awfulness of that, and to have some

462
00:34:23,960 --> 00:34:28,079
of the stuff pop up in your
head. Yeah, it's not a fun

463
00:34:28,119 --> 00:34:31,440
place to be. My hat is
off to homicide detectives and people who are

464
00:34:31,480 --> 00:34:36,840
able to work in this field,
because Lord knows they're needed, especially good

465
00:34:36,840 --> 00:34:40,639
ones and talented ones. And that
really is a case. That's a job

466
00:34:40,639 --> 00:34:45,360
that eat some people up alive.
Yeah, I can't see doing this all

467
00:34:45,400 --> 00:34:49,679
the time, I think. I
once I was done with this, I

468
00:34:49,800 --> 00:34:52,519
needed a break from it. I
don't really think I have listened to true

469
00:34:52,519 --> 00:34:55,840
crime podcasts or anything since that.
To be honest with you, I think

470
00:34:55,920 --> 00:35:00,840
I just needed to get away from
it. That is one hundred percent understandable.

471
00:35:00,559 --> 00:35:04,719
I had the same thought. Understandable
was the word that came to mind.

472
00:35:04,920 --> 00:35:07,559
The second question from Amber, she
asked about Rena. She said,

473
00:35:07,599 --> 00:35:15,079
did Rena's murder ever get investigated any
further? And besides the fibers that were

474
00:35:15,119 --> 00:35:19,360
found, was there anything else forensically
connecting her former roommate or someone else to

475
00:35:19,440 --> 00:35:24,039
the crime. I can say that
I think that case still bothers some retired

476
00:35:24,320 --> 00:35:28,679
law enforcement. I know there were
a lot of rumors around that case.

477
00:35:29,159 --> 00:35:32,559
I think I was able to disprove
one of those rumors. But I will

478
00:35:32,599 --> 00:35:37,679
say I just got a call not
too long ago from somebody who was former

479
00:35:37,719 --> 00:35:40,920
law enforcement saying that they're still digging
into it. On the side, I

480
00:35:42,000 --> 00:35:45,000
don't know that anything will ever come
out of that because it's been so long.

481
00:35:45,320 --> 00:35:51,679
I don't know what evidence of any
still exists. Yeah, my knowledge

482
00:35:51,840 --> 00:35:55,679
is there was not a whole lot
connecting the former roommate other than circumstance and

483
00:35:57,440 --> 00:36:04,519
some fiber analysis, but given the
circumstances, it doesn't seem unlikely that he

484
00:36:04,599 --> 00:36:07,679
did it, but it's hard to
know. I don't think it was a

485
00:36:07,760 --> 00:36:10,559
Timothy Spencer murder. I really don't
from everything I've heard. But yeah,

486
00:36:10,599 --> 00:36:15,599
I do know that it's something that
still interests former law enforcement folks. I

487
00:36:15,639 --> 00:36:17,639
don't know that there's ever going to
be a resolution, but they are still

488
00:36:17,800 --> 00:36:22,119
some of them are still bugged by
it. I have an additional question as

489
00:36:22,119 --> 00:36:27,199
well, Richard, Southern Nightmare is
such an amazing book and podcast series.

490
00:36:27,599 --> 00:36:32,840
Was this ever optioned for a film
or television show? No? I think

491
00:36:32,960 --> 00:36:37,719
partly because I didn't have time to
do the marketing and the legwork on it,

492
00:36:38,000 --> 00:36:43,639
and partly because I decided to do
it. My Betty Page book had

493
00:36:43,639 --> 00:36:51,000
been done through a traditional publisher and
with resources and an organization that did successfully

494
00:36:51,000 --> 00:36:53,440
sell the film rights. With this
one, I decided to self publish and

495
00:36:53,480 --> 00:36:57,519
do my own company because I wanted
to see, Okay, if I do

496
00:36:57,559 --> 00:37:00,559
that, do I get a bigger
share of royalties? Blah blah. I

497
00:37:00,599 --> 00:37:04,320
think what I was forgetting is you
also have to do all the marketing,

498
00:37:05,039 --> 00:37:07,519
and yes, there's a big piece
of the puzzle there that I was missing,

499
00:37:07,599 --> 00:37:12,320
and I did not have time to
really devote myself too. That said,

500
00:37:12,440 --> 00:37:16,199
yeah, I think it would make
a tremendous mini series or a documentary.

501
00:37:16,559 --> 00:37:21,599
Unfortunately some of the folks are passed. But it's a tremendous story.

502
00:37:21,800 --> 00:37:24,480
To me, it's got It's every
bit as interesting and compelling as some of

503
00:37:24,480 --> 00:37:29,119
the things that I've seen from Netflix
and such. I think we both feel

504
00:37:29,159 --> 00:37:34,360
the same way, absolutely, and
we've really already addressed i'd say the biggest

505
00:37:34,360 --> 00:37:37,320
listener question of all, which is
why this case just doesn't seem to be

506
00:37:37,320 --> 00:37:43,039
better known. The final listener question
that we have is from Sam, who

507
00:37:43,079 --> 00:37:45,480
just says, what is your next
project? To know what else you're planning

508
00:37:45,519 --> 00:37:51,480
and working on. Bill knows that
when I was finishing Southern Nightmare, I

509
00:37:51,559 --> 00:37:55,159
was actually interested in the Colonial Parkway
and that was where I was thinking about

510
00:37:55,199 --> 00:37:58,920
and I had some ideas on that
one. He has come over and join

511
00:37:59,079 --> 00:38:06,679
us. That's how Bill and I
met, But as pretty much right after

512
00:38:07,239 --> 00:38:12,119
Southern Nightmare wrapped up and I'd taken
a little rest for a couple of months,

513
00:38:12,239 --> 00:38:16,840
I got offered the editorship of Virginia
Business. Since then, just being

514
00:38:17,000 --> 00:38:21,679
the head of this business magazine.
It pretty much takes all of my time.

515
00:38:21,840 --> 00:38:25,079
We do great work, and it's
a busy publication, busy staff right

516
00:38:25,119 --> 00:38:29,280
now, doesn't leave time for things
on the side. Unfortunately, I'd love

517
00:38:29,320 --> 00:38:34,159
to do another season of Southern Nightmare. I've got ideas for lots of things,

518
00:38:34,360 --> 00:38:37,800
and I'm hoping I'll get to come
back to it sometime. The book

519
00:38:37,920 --> 00:38:43,280
and the podcast is Southern Nightmare,
The Hunt for the South Side Strangler and

520
00:38:43,440 --> 00:38:45,039
Richard. If people want to buy
this, where can they buy it?

521
00:38:45,440 --> 00:38:49,639
Amazon? All right, Richard,
thank you so much for joining us.

522
00:38:49,639 --> 00:38:52,079
We appreciate it. Thank you,
Thank you had a great time. We

523
00:38:52,159 --> 00:38:55,559
hope that everyone has enjoyed our first
selection for the Mind of a Murder book

524
00:38:55,559 --> 00:39:00,840
Club, Southern Nightmare. We will
put up some links in resources in our

525
00:39:00,880 --> 00:39:04,920
show notes so that you can locate
the podcast, and we will announce our

526
00:39:04,960 --> 00:39:07,960
next book club selection very shortly.
Thank you so much for joining us for

527
00:39:08,000 --> 00:39:22,039
this episode of Mind Over Murder.
We'll see you next time. Mind Over

528
00:39:22,159 --> 00:39:28,480
Murder is a production of Absolute Zero
and Another Dog Productions. Our executive producers

529
00:39:28,519 --> 00:39:32,239
are Bill Thomas and Kristin Dilley.
Our logo art is by Pamela Arnois.

530
00:39:32,880 --> 00:39:38,039
Our theme music is by Kevin McLeod. Mind Over Murder is distributed in partnership

531
00:39:38,079 --> 00:39:43,639
with Coral Space Media. You can
follow us on Facebook, Twitter, or

532
00:39:43,679 --> 00:39:47,480
Instagram. You can also follow our
page on the Colonial Parkway Murders on Facebook,

533
00:39:47,760 --> 00:39:52,559
and finally, you can follow Bill
Thomas on Twitter at Bill Thomas.

534
00:39:52,840 --> 00:40:19,519
Five six. Thank you for listening
to mind Over Murder. My My, My,