WEBVTT 1 00:00:29.600 --> 00:00:34.159 Welcome back to the Path with Chili. I'm Robin, I'm Jules, and 2 00:00:34.240 --> 00:00:40.399 I'm Ashley. Let's die right into this week's case. June sixteenth, two 3 00:00:40.439 --> 00:00:45.520 thousand and nine, Ross's Point, Ireland, the body of a man who 4 00:00:45.560 --> 00:00:49.880 appeared to be in his late fifties or early sixties is found washed up on 5 00:00:49.920 --> 00:00:53.880 a beach, and his cause of death is believed to be a cute cardiac 6 00:00:53.960 --> 00:00:58.679 arrest. Four days earlier, the man had arrived in the nearby town of 7 00:00:58.719 --> 00:01:03.159 Sligo and into a hotel under the name Peter Bergman, but it turns out 8 00:01:03.200 --> 00:01:10.200 this name was fake and he carries no identification. Investigators believe that he traveled 9 00:01:10.239 --> 00:01:15.840 to Ireland from another country, and you CCTV footage to track his movements in 10 00:01:15.920 --> 00:01:19.760 the days prior to his death. When they are unable to uncover Peter Bergmann's 11 00:01:19.799 --> 00:01:26.000 true identity. After that, the Path went Chile. So a few weeks 12 00:01:26.000 --> 00:01:30.640 ago, our podcast traveled to Ireland to cover the unsolved disappearance of Trevor Dealey, 13 00:01:30.959 --> 00:01:34.840 so I figured we should go back there to cover another mystery. This 14 00:01:34.959 --> 00:01:38.519 time it involves an unidentified John Doe. The two thousand and nine death of 15 00:01:38.560 --> 00:01:44.439 a man known only as Peter Bergmann. While the story has garnered a lot 16 00:01:44.439 --> 00:01:47.840 of publicity in Ireland, it does not appear to be that well known in 17 00:01:47.879 --> 00:01:52.079 North America. The victim in question was a middle aged man who traveled to 18 00:01:52.120 --> 00:01:56.560 the town of Sligo and checked into a hotel under the name Peter Bergmann, 19 00:01:56.959 --> 00:02:00.400 but of course it was eventually determined that this was not his real name. 20 00:02:00.159 --> 00:02:04.840 He stayed there for the next three nights before traveling to the nearby village of 21 00:02:04.920 --> 00:02:08.080 Ross's Point, where his body would be discovered on a beach the following morning. 22 00:02:08.879 --> 00:02:13.800 While it does not appear there was foul play involved, the exact circumstances 23 00:02:13.800 --> 00:02:17.120 of how Peter Bergmann died are still unclear, and since he was heard speaking 24 00:02:17.159 --> 00:02:22.479 with an accent which sounded like it might be Austrian, his reasons for traveling 25 00:02:22.520 --> 00:02:27.159 to Ireland to begin with are still a mystery. There is evidence to suggest 26 00:02:27.159 --> 00:02:30.680 that he spent his last days gradually disposing of all personal items which might have 27 00:02:30.719 --> 00:02:36.120 helped reveal his true identity, as is possible he wanted to be completely forgotten 28 00:02:36.159 --> 00:02:39.879 about after he died. However, if that was his intention, the exact 29 00:02:39.919 --> 00:02:45.879 opposite result took place as Peter Bergmann has since become one of Ireland's most heavily 30 00:02:45.919 --> 00:02:50.919 discussed mysteries, and there have been numerous theories presented about his possible identity and 31 00:02:51.039 --> 00:02:54.520 backstory. In spite of the publicity of this case is generated, no one 32 00:02:54.520 --> 00:02:59.400 who recognizes this man has ever come forward, So we're going to explore all 33 00:02:59.439 --> 00:03:04.560 the different themes on today's episode. So a few questions for you. It's 34 00:03:04.680 --> 00:03:07.520 two thousand and nine, and of course this is over in Ireland, it's 35 00:03:07.520 --> 00:03:09.439 not here in the US. But our policy, and it has been for 36 00:03:09.520 --> 00:03:15.560 quite a while, is you now need your ID card, you need a 37 00:03:15.560 --> 00:03:20.120 credit card that matches your ID card, and all of these kind of precautions 38 00:03:20.159 --> 00:03:23.319 as you check into a hotel or motel. Is that not the case? 39 00:03:23.400 --> 00:03:27.000 Was that not the case in two thousand and nine in Ireland? It should 40 00:03:27.000 --> 00:03:30.439 have been, but for some reason he was able to check in without proper 41 00:03:30.479 --> 00:03:34.039 ID and a credit card. And we'll discuss this more later on. But 42 00:03:34.159 --> 00:03:38.240 people have compared this to another case that was on the Netflix version of Unsolved 43 00:03:38.280 --> 00:03:43.199 Mysteries about a woman who checked into a fancy hotel in Norway under the name 44 00:03:43.319 --> 00:03:46.520 Jennifer Fairgate in nineteen ninety five, but it turned out the name was fake 45 00:03:46.639 --> 00:03:50.840 and she's never been identified. And people were saying, in that case, 46 00:03:50.879 --> 00:03:53.240 that was nineteen ninety five, and you still needed a credit card to check 47 00:03:53.240 --> 00:03:58.719 into a hotel. So it's another case where they're just inexplicably wondering why didn't 48 00:03:58.719 --> 00:04:00.919 the front desk staff do its job and allow these people to do this? 49 00:04:02.400 --> 00:04:04.800 That is insane. Now do we know for a fact that he didn't have 50 00:04:04.840 --> 00:04:08.919 a fake ID that said Peter Bergman, Uh, not that I know of. 51 00:04:09.000 --> 00:04:12.599 No. Actually he might have, but they haven't really revealed that. 52 00:04:12.759 --> 00:04:15.360 But if he did, he didn't have it on him when he was when 53 00:04:15.360 --> 00:04:17.639 he died. Okay, because I was going to say that would even suggest 54 00:04:17.680 --> 00:04:21.600 even bigger things going on, because it's easy to walk in and say this 55 00:04:21.680 --> 00:04:26.240 is my name if no one's asking for proof of that. We do see 56 00:04:26.240 --> 00:04:29.519 that when people are trying to check in, you know, and no one 57 00:04:29.639 --> 00:04:32.639 know that they're in that hotel, like a famous celebrity, but they're checking 58 00:04:32.639 --> 00:04:38.519 in under their legal name or under a representative's legal name, and then their 59 00:04:38.600 --> 00:04:42.480 name is simply booked under a fictitious name. But here it seems like they 60 00:04:42.560 --> 00:04:47.160 didn't do due diligence to see who Peter actually was. And what's really really 61 00:04:47.160 --> 00:04:51.319 interesting to me is that I'm assuming there is a sketch or a picture of 62 00:04:51.360 --> 00:04:55.319 this individual, and like you said, no one has come forward to say 63 00:04:55.600 --> 00:04:58.720 that looks like our missing family member. Well, not just a sketch, 64 00:04:58.759 --> 00:05:02.639 but CCTV foot like actual images and photos of the real guy what he looked 65 00:05:02.720 --> 00:05:08.720 like, and he still has not been identified. Our story begins in two 66 00:05:08.720 --> 00:05:13.920 thousand and nine in Ross's Point, Ireland, a small seaside village with a 67 00:05:13.959 --> 00:05:18.360 population of just under nine hundred people, which is located in County Sligo next 68 00:05:18.399 --> 00:05:23.240 to the Atlantic Ocean. At around six forty five a m. On the 69 00:05:23.279 --> 00:05:27.800 morning of Tuesday, June sixteenth, a father and son duo came across the 70 00:05:27.839 --> 00:05:30.680 body of a middle aged man who'd been washed up on one of the village's 71 00:05:30.720 --> 00:05:35.040 beaches and was lying face down in the sand. He appeared to be in 72 00:05:35.040 --> 00:05:41.160 his late fifties or early sixties and had closely cropped gray hair and a waterproof 73 00:05:41.279 --> 00:05:46.399 Quarts watch on his left wrist. He was dressed in purple stripes beeto type 74 00:05:46.439 --> 00:05:50.560 swimming trunks with underwear overtop of it at a navy t shirt which was tucked 75 00:05:50.600 --> 00:05:56.160 into them. This prompted the duo to contact the Guardie, which is the 76 00:05:56.240 --> 00:06:00.879 name of Ireland's police force, and when the medical examiner or at the scene, 77 00:06:00.279 --> 00:06:05.959 the victim was officially pronounced dead. Some additional articles of clothing included black 78 00:06:06.000 --> 00:06:13.120 shoes, dark socks, a sleeveless Tommy Hillfiger jumper, a black leather jacket, 79 00:06:13.399 --> 00:06:17.000 a black leather belt, and neatly folded dark navy trousers were found on 80 00:06:17.040 --> 00:06:21.879 a nearby rock and presumably belonged to the victim. Curiously, it turned out 81 00:06:21.879 --> 00:06:27.319 that the labels in every piece of clothing had been cut out. The various 82 00:06:27.360 --> 00:06:31.519 pockets of each piece of victim's clothing contained a number of items, including an 83 00:06:31.600 --> 00:06:36.199 envelope containing one hundred and forty nine euros worth of notes and coins, a 84 00:06:36.240 --> 00:06:43.079 packet of tissue, fifty five milligrams of aspirin, hands of plast sticking plasters 85 00:06:43.560 --> 00:06:47.199 which are adhesive bandages, and a wrap bar of hotel soap. However, 86 00:06:47.319 --> 00:06:54.560 no form of identification for this man could be found anywhere. What's incredibly odd 87 00:06:54.800 --> 00:06:59.720 is that he has this speedo on, meaning that he almost intended to go 88 00:07:00.439 --> 00:07:02.480 or that he was going to jump or do something that involve the water, 89 00:07:02.800 --> 00:07:08.199 but then also had his clothes on over it. And what's in his pockets 90 00:07:08.279 --> 00:07:11.600 doesn't seem to be every day things that you would place in your pocket. 91 00:07:12.000 --> 00:07:15.519 Why take the bar of soap from the hotel? Why have these adhesive bandages? 92 00:07:15.639 --> 00:07:19.240 I mean, yes, the coins and the aspirin are every day things 93 00:07:19.240 --> 00:07:23.160 that you might slip into your pocket for later in the day, but the 94 00:07:23.240 --> 00:07:27.160 others don't seem to really make sense. And the labels being cut out of 95 00:07:27.199 --> 00:07:30.399 his clothes does seem like he's going to this extent of saying, I'm going 96 00:07:30.439 --> 00:07:35.519 to remove things that might link me somewhere or to a purchase. Yeah, 97 00:07:35.519 --> 00:07:38.959 as we're going to talk about, in the days prior to his death, 98 00:07:39.000 --> 00:07:42.839 this man would be disposing of a lot of his personal items, which I 99 00:07:42.920 --> 00:07:46.399 believe because he didn't want anyone to figure out his identity, so he was 100 00:07:46.439 --> 00:07:48.240 getting rid of all the clues. But like you said, some of the 101 00:07:48.240 --> 00:07:53.000 items he did keep with him and still had autumnhen he died, such as 102 00:07:53.000 --> 00:07:57.000 the bandages and the hotel soap, It makes you wonder why did he not 103 00:07:57.040 --> 00:08:00.319 get rid of these items. Why did he keep these particular items around? 104 00:08:00.920 --> 00:08:03.000 The hotel soap really gets me, Like, I could see how you could 105 00:08:03.000 --> 00:08:07.319 have, you know, one hundred and forty nine euros and maybe even bandages, 106 00:08:07.800 --> 00:08:13.199 But what would possess you if you're going out to wrap up a bar 107 00:08:13.319 --> 00:08:16.160 of hotel soap and take it with you, Like, so, where were 108 00:08:16.199 --> 00:08:20.680 you going that you would need this soap? Potentially? I had to giggle 109 00:08:20.800 --> 00:08:22.199 when I heard about it. At first, I'm thinking hotel soap, and 110 00:08:22.199 --> 00:08:26.040 I thought, come on, Ashley, I take everything that's free on the 111 00:08:26.079 --> 00:08:28.199 counter when I leave and then I eventually throw it away. But I think 112 00:08:28.240 --> 00:08:31.159 it's from my grad school days where I had no money, and I'm like, 113 00:08:31.200 --> 00:08:35.639 oh, free soap and shampoo and a summing kid. What is this? 114 00:08:37.799 --> 00:08:39.919 Well, it initially appeared that he had drowned the ocean and washed up 115 00:08:39.919 --> 00:08:45.399 on the beach. The autopsy revealed what the pathologists described as no sign of 116 00:08:45.519 --> 00:08:50.159 quote unquote classical saltwater drowning, and there was no evidence he had been the 117 00:08:50.240 --> 00:08:52.720 victim of foul play. However, it was apparent that the man had been 118 00:08:52.759 --> 00:08:56.519 suffering from some serious health problems, as he was in the advanced stages of 119 00:08:56.559 --> 00:09:01.559 prostate cancer and had bone tumors, so even if he had not died at 120 00:09:01.559 --> 00:09:03.840 this time, he likely only had a few more weeks left to live. 121 00:09:05.679 --> 00:09:09.960 His right kidney was missing, and he showed signs of previously having suffered multiple 122 00:09:09.000 --> 00:09:13.879 heart attacks. The man's teeth were in good condition and showed an extensive history 123 00:09:13.879 --> 00:09:18.279 of dental work, as he had bridging root canals and crowns, as well 124 00:09:18.279 --> 00:09:22.559 as a full gold tooth on the upper back right side of his mouth. 125 00:09:22.240 --> 00:09:26.759 But in spite of his health problems, the toxicology report showed no medication or 126 00:09:26.840 --> 00:09:33.039 pain killers in his system, including aspirin, even though aspirin tablets have been 127 00:09:33.039 --> 00:09:37.759 found among his possessions. This meant he likely would have been experiencing a great 128 00:09:37.799 --> 00:09:41.320 deal of pain at the time of his death. In the end, his 129 00:09:41.399 --> 00:09:46.600 official cause of death was ruled to be acute cardiac arrest BLUs his heart, 130 00:09:46.720 --> 00:09:50.360 so it looks like it was a heart attack or cardiac arrest at the end 131 00:09:50.360 --> 00:09:54.200 of his life. But when he was battling cancer and he has these other 132 00:09:54.320 --> 00:09:58.440 serious health issues and clearly in a state of pain, my first thought was 133 00:09:58.480 --> 00:10:03.559 maybe he was going to complete suicide and he wanted to end this pain. 134 00:10:03.799 --> 00:10:09.000 Cancer is one of the most cruel diseases you can suffer from, and so 135 00:10:09.360 --> 00:10:11.759 that would have made sense. The aspirin, though, does allude to the 136 00:10:11.799 --> 00:10:16.240 idea of was he struggling with a feeling of a heart attack coming on, 137 00:10:16.399 --> 00:10:20.639 or had he had a prediagnosed kind of risk of heart attack, and so 138 00:10:20.720 --> 00:10:24.440 he was taking those aspirin daily to try to prevent that from happening. But 139 00:10:24.480 --> 00:10:30.360 then in the end he actually died of cardiac arrest. Yeah, there is 140 00:10:30.399 --> 00:10:33.679 definitely like ample evidence to suggest that he might have been planning suicide and was 141 00:10:33.759 --> 00:10:37.799 hoping to maybe drown himself by walking into the ocean, But it could just 142 00:10:37.840 --> 00:10:41.960 be a coincidence, maybe that he just happened to suffer a fatal heart attack 143 00:10:43.000 --> 00:10:46.279 at that exact moment when he was planning to end his own life, because 144 00:10:46.559 --> 00:10:50.200 that appeared to be the exact cause of death rather than drowning. It's so 145 00:10:50.399 --> 00:10:54.360 weird, like just everything about it. Cutting off all of your labels so 146 00:10:54.440 --> 00:10:58.879 that nobody can find out who you are. Why would you take such measures 147 00:11:00.480 --> 00:11:03.919 unless you were planning to not want to be traced, And if you're not 148 00:11:03.960 --> 00:11:07.639 wanting to be traced, unless you're running to a certain location. That would 149 00:11:07.679 --> 00:11:11.360 be my thought, too, ash would be that he was attempting to complete 150 00:11:11.360 --> 00:11:16.919 suicide and he didn't want anyone who knew him from his life to find out 151 00:11:16.960 --> 00:11:20.399 what happened to him, or to have access to the body and know what 152 00:11:20.519 --> 00:11:26.240 he did. So it seems very strange, almost eerie that he would be 153 00:11:26.279 --> 00:11:30.120 struck down by a heart attack at that very moment, like you just said, 154 00:11:30.200 --> 00:11:33.879 Robin, when he may have been attempting to drown himself. Also was 155 00:11:33.960 --> 00:11:39.120 really interesting is you have a lot of evidence of who this person is. 156 00:11:39.320 --> 00:11:43.320 His teeth, the fact that there were very unique dental features where he has 157 00:11:43.440 --> 00:11:48.000 the gold tooth, and he has other indications that there's a unique root canal, 158 00:11:48.039 --> 00:11:52.960 there's crowns, there's bridges, and then you have the idea that he 159 00:11:52.039 --> 00:11:56.799 had cancer. So if you're advertising this is the body we found, we 160 00:11:56.840 --> 00:12:01.080 found a man. He had progressed prostate cancer. He had aspurn with him, 161 00:12:01.120 --> 00:12:03.519 perhaps indicating that he was at a high risk of a heart attack, 162 00:12:05.000 --> 00:12:09.200 which is what eventually killed him. These are the dental features that we you 163 00:12:09.200 --> 00:12:13.320 know, we know that this individual had. You would think that someone would 164 00:12:13.360 --> 00:12:16.639 easily say, oh my gosh, that's our dad, that's my brother, 165 00:12:16.759 --> 00:12:20.639 that's my coworker, and for no one, and then you have the CCTV 166 00:12:20.879 --> 00:12:24.720 for no one to have said that, it blows my mind. I get 167 00:12:24.799 --> 00:12:30.759 it might be an international kind of you know, cross countries of origin from 168 00:12:30.759 --> 00:12:35.519 this individual to Ireland, but still you would think that someoneould say that's our 169 00:12:35.600 --> 00:12:39.320 man, we know him. Question for you, Robin, do you know 170 00:12:39.320 --> 00:12:43.919 if they did any radio carbon testing on the teeth or the bones. I 171 00:12:43.960 --> 00:12:46.559 haven't heard that. No. I mean it's possible they did. But if 172 00:12:46.600 --> 00:12:50.240 they, if that's what happened, they never released that information publicly. But 173 00:12:50.440 --> 00:12:54.840 I have seen that in other cases involving unidentified decedents, So I'd be surprised 174 00:12:54.840 --> 00:12:58.960 if they didn't try that here because that would at least give them an idea 175 00:12:58.039 --> 00:13:03.320 of where he grew up and maybe an idea of like a range of places 176 00:13:03.320 --> 00:13:07.960 that he could have lived within the last year or two. Yeah, because 177 00:13:07.000 --> 00:13:11.600 we did a Patreon Minnesota while back about a deceded named little miss Panasofki who 178 00:13:11.679 --> 00:13:16.559 was found murdered in Florida in nineteen seventy one, and they did some carbon 179 00:13:16.600 --> 00:13:20.039 testing to determine that she may have hailed from Greece, So that's the reason 180 00:13:20.080 --> 00:13:24.240 why she's possibly never been identified in the United States. So yeah, that 181 00:13:24.240 --> 00:13:28.799 would be a good idea for them to do on this guy, if they 182 00:13:28.799 --> 00:13:33.519 haven't already. Since the decedent could not be identified and no one came forward 183 00:13:33.559 --> 00:13:39.759 who recognized him, investigators attempted to backtrack his movements, as he frequently showed 184 00:13:39.799 --> 00:13:45.559 up on CCTV footage in the days prior to his death. It turned out 185 00:13:45.559 --> 00:13:48.159 that he first showed up in the area on Friday, June twelfth, when 186 00:13:48.159 --> 00:13:52.919 he arrived at the nearby town of Sligo, located about eight kilometers southeast of 187 00:13:54.039 --> 00:13:58.519 Ross's Point. Prior to that, the man was captured by cameras at the 188 00:13:58.720 --> 00:14:01.679 ulsterbus depot in the city of Darry Oh my god, I love Dairy Girls. 189 00:14:01.799 --> 00:14:05.080 Have I watched it? So good? It's so good? Is that 190 00:14:05.120 --> 00:14:09.200 a show sat in Ireland? Yes, it's so good. Hongyan cheek really 191 00:14:09.240 --> 00:14:13.679 funny, kind of a little raunchy and playful. At the time, he 192 00:14:13.799 --> 00:14:18.720 was wearing glasses and dressed in a black leather jacket, with a small bag 193 00:14:18.759 --> 00:14:22.720 slung over his shoulder and a smaller black bag in his hand. He initially 194 00:14:22.759 --> 00:14:26.559 boarded a bus and asked if it would be traveling to Sligo, and when 195 00:14:26.559 --> 00:14:31.720 he learned it wasn't, he subsequently boarded the correct bus, which left the 196 00:14:31.759 --> 00:14:37.840 depot at four pm. CCTV footage would capture him arriving in Sligo at six 197 00:14:37.960 --> 00:14:41.320 twenty eight pm, and he proceeded to climb into a tax into a taxi 198 00:14:41.360 --> 00:14:46.240 and asked the driver to take him to a cheap hotel. The driver first 199 00:14:46.279 --> 00:14:48.759 took him to a hotel on Connelly Street, which turned out to have no 200 00:14:48.879 --> 00:14:54.399 vacancy, so he was next taken to the Sligo City Hotel on Key Street 201 00:14:54.080 --> 00:14:58.559 at six point fifty two. He rented out rooms seven oh five for three 202 00:14:58.679 --> 00:15:03.000 nights and registered under the name Peter Bergmann. Of course, it would later 203 00:15:03.080 --> 00:15:05.720 turn out that Peter Bergman was a fake name, but that's how we'll refer 204 00:15:05.799 --> 00:15:11.000 to him from now on. Do we have any details about the quality of 205 00:15:11.000 --> 00:15:15.120 this hotel and kind of what their operating standards were, because I know that 206 00:15:15.519 --> 00:15:18.559 one of the issues the police have in law enforcement have here in the US 207 00:15:18.720 --> 00:15:24.000 is that when you were in a little seedier areas and you have a lot 208 00:15:24.039 --> 00:15:28.639 of motels that are very, very inexpensive, they're by the hour. One 209 00:15:28.679 --> 00:15:33.879 of the issues is that they don't follow protocol set for hospitality industries. Right. 210 00:15:33.919 --> 00:15:37.480 They're not checking IDs, they're not getting a proper documentation of people checking 211 00:15:37.519 --> 00:15:41.080 in. They don't pay attention to what ages people are when they're checking in. 212 00:15:41.440 --> 00:15:45.919 So is it possible when he requested that cab driver to take him to 213 00:15:46.000 --> 00:15:50.080 a cheap location that he was taken to an area where they simply if you 214 00:15:50.159 --> 00:15:54.240 paid them, they did not care what protocol they followed. Yeah, that's 215 00:15:54.279 --> 00:15:58.840 a good point, because I haven't heard of the Sligo City Hotel being CD 216 00:15:58.960 --> 00:16:02.000 per se. Like from the photographs I've seen, it doesn't look like a 217 00:16:02.159 --> 00:16:06.840 rundown place, and I haven't heard anything about habit like rough clientele. But 218 00:16:06.960 --> 00:16:11.000 that could be why he selected a cheap hotel because they didn't check identification and 219 00:16:11.039 --> 00:16:15.480 he was able to check in without a credit card as well, which he 220 00:16:15.519 --> 00:16:18.320 probably wouldn't be able to do if he had gone to one of the more 221 00:16:18.480 --> 00:16:23.120 classier, fancier hotels. And like, who knows, maybe he said something 222 00:16:23.240 --> 00:16:26.679 like, oh my gosh, like I've misplaced my wallet, but I have 223 00:16:26.879 --> 00:16:33.120 cash on me and let me just try to find where it is or whatever 224 00:16:33.159 --> 00:16:36.559 he said, and then they were like, okay, well we'll take your 225 00:16:36.559 --> 00:16:40.960 credit card when you leave or if you have any extra charges, and then 226 00:16:41.000 --> 00:16:44.759 you can show us your identification at the point that you find your wallet. 227 00:16:44.799 --> 00:16:48.639 I could see him coming up with some kind of excuse, especially if it 228 00:16:48.759 --> 00:16:53.279 wasn't like he's not staying at Hilton or something like that or four seasons where 229 00:16:53.279 --> 00:16:57.480 they're absolutely going to require your credit card and identification. If it is just 230 00:16:57.600 --> 00:17:03.039 this cheap hotel, might have a staff member who's more likely to make an 231 00:17:03.039 --> 00:17:06.680 exception, especially if it's this older guy, and you're kind of like, 232 00:17:06.759 --> 00:17:08.759 okay, no one's really going to take him, so let's just make an 233 00:17:08.759 --> 00:17:12.440 exception. We'll let him come in. We're likely not going to get caught 234 00:17:12.480 --> 00:17:15.480 for this, and he's paying cash up front, so you know, if 235 00:17:15.519 --> 00:17:18.839 nobody finds out, it's not a big deal. Yeah, the very no 236 00:17:18.880 --> 00:17:22.880 one would find out. But then it turns out this would become the center 237 00:17:22.000 --> 00:17:26.039 of one of the biggest mysteries in Ireland. So I wonder if the clerk 238 00:17:26.079 --> 00:17:30.759 who checked him in wound up keeping their job. The rate was sixty five 239 00:17:30.799 --> 00:17:33.519 euros per night, and Peter Bergman paid for it in cash, but like 240 00:17:33.559 --> 00:17:37.759 we said, he was never asked to provide any identification. When he wrote 241 00:17:37.759 --> 00:17:44.000 his name in the register, he listed his address as eight Stisen fifteen Ving 242 00:17:44.319 --> 00:17:48.079 forty four seventy two. Now Veing just happened to be the German language name 243 00:17:48.160 --> 00:17:52.279 for Vienna, Austria, but the problem is that this address did not exist. 244 00:17:53.000 --> 00:17:56.759 Some sources say that there is no such street as Aint Stetterson in Vienna, 245 00:17:57.160 --> 00:18:02.200 while others state that the address led to a vacant lot. While four 246 00:18:02.240 --> 00:18:04.599 four seven two was meant to be a postal code, it also did not 247 00:18:04.720 --> 00:18:10.359 exist, as Vienna uses a four digit system where all the numbers begin with 248 00:18:10.480 --> 00:18:15.359 one instead of four. Everyone who heard Peter speak described him as having what 249 00:18:15.480 --> 00:18:19.319 sounded like a thick Austrian or perhaps German accent, and he spoke English very 250 00:18:19.359 --> 00:18:23.759 well. After spending the night at the hotel, Peter would be captured visiting 251 00:18:23.839 --> 00:18:27.720 a nearby post office at ten forty nine am on the morning of Saturday, 252 00:18:27.880 --> 00:18:33.839 June the thirteenth. He would purchase ten eighty two cent stamps and was also 253 00:18:33.880 --> 00:18:37.240 given air mail stickers. But while it was never conclusively determined if Peter mailed 254 00:18:37.240 --> 00:18:41.480 any letters, these stamps were not found among his possessions after he died. 255 00:18:44.799 --> 00:18:48.640 That's so bizarre. Are air mail stickers? Are those the ones where you 256 00:18:48.799 --> 00:18:52.920 play them on the box and it gives directions like it's fragile packaging or it's 257 00:18:53.079 --> 00:18:57.960 I mean, what is an air mail sticker actually used for? Uh, 258 00:18:59.319 --> 00:19:02.680 I'll have to look at U unless jewels, do you know. I thought 259 00:19:02.720 --> 00:19:07.920 that it would be something that the company who's shipping it would put on like 260 00:19:07.759 --> 00:19:11.359 a parcel or something like that. Right, Like, I thought if you're 261 00:19:11.400 --> 00:19:17.960 going to be sending something through FedEx and they're sending something in an airplane, 262 00:19:18.039 --> 00:19:21.240 they would slap that on. I didn't know you as the sender would do 263 00:19:21.359 --> 00:19:23.759 that, but I really don't know. Yeah, I think it's kind of 264 00:19:23.839 --> 00:19:27.880 thing the expedite if you need to send it like somewhere to another country or 265 00:19:27.880 --> 00:19:32.880 something like. They're not required for international postage, but it's sometimes helpful to 266 00:19:32.880 --> 00:19:37.880 put them on any envelopes and packages you receive. Yeah, like extra directions, 267 00:19:37.880 --> 00:19:41.440 maybe extra guidance for the postage service. That's really interesting that all of 268 00:19:41.440 --> 00:19:47.039 a sudden you have this man who's in a foreign country. He's using information 269 00:19:47.119 --> 00:19:52.000 that's not accurate. Like the like the postal code, the street may not 270 00:19:52.039 --> 00:19:56.279 even be real, the address surely doesn't exist except for possibly a vacant lot. 271 00:19:56.640 --> 00:20:00.000 And then we know that he's preparing to try to send mail potentially out 272 00:20:00.000 --> 00:20:03.680 of the country. It's almost as if is he writing letters to family members. 273 00:20:04.000 --> 00:20:07.880 But again, if he was, and he mount those prior to this 274 00:20:08.000 --> 00:20:15.599 day that he's enters the water, somehow, wouldn't we know wouldn't people say 275 00:20:15.640 --> 00:20:21.200 I got a letter from my deceased brother for my deceased cousin and he had 276 00:20:21.279 --> 00:20:25.880 cancer and took his own life. Like I just feel like if anything had 277 00:20:25.960 --> 00:20:30.240 gone out that wasn't let's say just work related, wouldn't that guide people to 278 00:20:30.279 --> 00:20:34.960 who this individual was. Who knows how much direction he would have given within 279 00:20:36.039 --> 00:20:40.079 those letters, and how cryptic or vague he could have been. And say 280 00:20:40.119 --> 00:20:44.720 they lived in like just Switzerland for example, Maybe they've never heard of Peter 281 00:20:44.799 --> 00:20:48.440 Bergmann or heard of this case, and so they just think that they're getting 282 00:20:48.519 --> 00:20:52.160 these letters from their loved one and they're saying, you know, I'm moving 283 00:20:52.200 --> 00:20:55.319 away, I'm never going to see you again. Who knows what they could 284 00:20:55.400 --> 00:20:59.519 have potentially said, But I think you're absolutely right ash that he likely was 285 00:20:59.559 --> 00:21:03.839 sending the letters to somebody, because why else would you get these stamps, 286 00:21:03.880 --> 00:21:07.160 And if they weren't found on his person when he died, and they weren't 287 00:21:07.279 --> 00:21:12.039 with his belongings, it seems likely that perhaps he already did mail those letters. 288 00:21:12.559 --> 00:21:17.640 But what did they say and did they provide any sort of clue or 289 00:21:17.680 --> 00:21:21.960 direction to where he may have been ending his own life. It could have 290 00:21:22.039 --> 00:21:26.160 just been I'm ceasing communication with you. We don't really know. If his 291 00:21:26.200 --> 00:21:27.960 intention was to end his own life, and he went so far as to 292 00:21:29.000 --> 00:21:33.240 cut his labels off his clothing so that he wasn't identified, he might have 293 00:21:33.279 --> 00:21:36.920 been very cryptic in what he was saying to them, essentially some kind of 294 00:21:36.960 --> 00:21:44.799 cloaked version of don't look for me. During his three night stay at the 295 00:21:44.839 --> 00:21:48.720 hotel, Peter mostly kept to himself, but during that time period he would 296 00:21:48.759 --> 00:21:55.880 be captured on CCTV exiting the hotel no less than thirteen times. On each 297 00:21:55.920 --> 00:22:00.519 occasion, he would be shown carrying a purple plastic bag which appeared to contain 298 00:22:00.599 --> 00:22:04.039 items, but he was not carrying the bag whenever he returned. It was 299 00:22:04.160 --> 00:22:08.279 unclear if Peter might have folded the same empty bag and placed it in one 300 00:22:08.319 --> 00:22:11.920 of his pockets, or if he just kept a large collection of purple bags 301 00:22:12.319 --> 00:22:18.599 inside his room. Investigators theorized that Peter may have been using the bags to 302 00:22:18.680 --> 00:22:22.319 dispose of all of his personal belongings in order to hide all potential clues to 303 00:22:22.359 --> 00:22:29.079 his identity. However, a thorough check of all CCTV footage in Slago failed 304 00:22:29.079 --> 00:22:32.920 to capture Peter getting rid of any items, and even though a number of 305 00:22:32.960 --> 00:22:37.039 the local dumps, rubbish bins, and public areas were searched, they failed 306 00:22:37.079 --> 00:22:41.519 to turn up anything which could be traced back to him. Peter's movements almost 307 00:22:41.519 --> 00:22:45.079 seemed to indicate that he was aware of all the security cameras blind spots and 308 00:22:45.200 --> 00:22:52.200 made the calculated decision to avoid them whenever he disposed of his belongings. Okay, 309 00:22:52.440 --> 00:22:55.400 so this is still possible. That changes my idea a little bit. 310 00:22:55.799 --> 00:22:59.960 You're saying that it almost was like he was aware of where these cameras were 311 00:23:00.119 --> 00:23:02.680 and was going to these great links to kind of hide who he was. 312 00:23:03.200 --> 00:23:07.759 Is it possible that with the prostate cancer, with potentially being near the end 313 00:23:07.839 --> 00:23:12.279 of his life and having let's say, opioids or any kind of medication for 314 00:23:12.400 --> 00:23:18.119 the cancer, or again just kind of having the chemical imbalances going on due 315 00:23:18.160 --> 00:23:22.519 to the cancer and this heart issue. Could he have been suffering from delirium 316 00:23:22.720 --> 00:23:29.799 or kind of a state of almost near dementia caused by the cancer medication or 317 00:23:29.799 --> 00:23:33.319 by this near end of his life that made him think someone was after him, 318 00:23:33.359 --> 00:23:37.519 which is why he had to go to these great links. I think 319 00:23:37.559 --> 00:23:41.759 it's possible. I think the cancer can have a huge impact on your mental 320 00:23:41.799 --> 00:23:45.920 health and just on you on all of your different hormones and your neurology. 321 00:23:47.160 --> 00:23:52.759 Every single aspect of your brain is going to be affected, not specifically by 322 00:23:52.799 --> 00:23:56.119 the cancer, but likely by whatever medication he was taking, whether it was 323 00:23:56.200 --> 00:24:03.000 chemo or radiation, and then just this feeling of impending doom. Their rates 324 00:24:03.079 --> 00:24:08.839 of the incidence of depression and anxiety in people with cancer is far higher than 325 00:24:08.839 --> 00:24:14.920 the general population. So the idea that he could have even been in a 326 00:24:14.960 --> 00:24:18.759 state, like you said, of psychosis, that is possible because I can't 327 00:24:18.799 --> 00:24:25.759 imagine when you're facing death and you know that that is the end, how 328 00:24:25.880 --> 00:24:30.000 difficult that would be to grapple with. And we don't know his interpersonal relationships 329 00:24:30.079 --> 00:24:34.680 or his support network so I don't think that we could discount the possibility that 330 00:24:34.759 --> 00:24:38.880 he was having some kind of mental health crisis. That is true because we've 331 00:24:38.920 --> 00:24:42.720 talked about how we think it's a calculated attempt to get rid of his identity, 332 00:24:42.920 --> 00:24:45.759 to get rid of all clues to his identity, so that no one 333 00:24:45.799 --> 00:24:48.279 would know who he was when he died. But if he was not in 334 00:24:48.319 --> 00:24:52.400 the right frame of mind, it could be. An alternate explanation is that 335 00:24:52.799 --> 00:24:56.759 he just thought people racked for him, like he was just paranoid, because 336 00:24:56.799 --> 00:25:00.000 the cancer was just causing some mental health issues, so everything in his own 337 00:25:00.039 --> 00:25:03.480 mind made sense to him, even though maybe didn't make any sense to the 338 00:25:03.519 --> 00:25:08.519 outside world. So on Sunday, June the fourteenth, Peter left the hotel 339 00:25:08.559 --> 00:25:14.519 between eleven and eleven thirty am and climbed into a taxi cab. According to 340 00:25:14.559 --> 00:25:18.319 the driver, Peter pulled out a map and asked him to recommend a quiet 341 00:25:18.359 --> 00:25:22.720 beach where he could go for a swim. After he recommended Ross's Point, 342 00:25:22.839 --> 00:25:26.640 the driver took him to the two beaches which were located there. When they 343 00:25:26.759 --> 00:25:30.359 arrived, Peter only climbed out of the taxi for a few moments to look 344 00:25:30.400 --> 00:25:33.039 at the area before he got back in and asked the driver to take him 345 00:25:33.079 --> 00:25:37.400 to the Sligo bus station. During the ride, Peter asked how often buses 346 00:25:37.440 --> 00:25:41.759 traveled to that beach, and he also mentioned that he was from Austria. 347 00:25:41.599 --> 00:25:45.200 After Peter was dropped at the bus station, he later returned to the hotel 348 00:25:45.599 --> 00:25:49.839 and requested a late checkout the following morning. At one oh six pm on 349 00:25:49.880 --> 00:25:55.200 Monday, June the fifteenth, Peter finally checked out and left. He was 350 00:25:55.240 --> 00:25:59.920 described as wearing a black leather jacket, longsleeved pale blue shirt, a sleeve 351 00:26:00.119 --> 00:26:03.440 list Tommy Hill figure jumper, and dark trousers. Even though most of these 352 00:26:03.519 --> 00:26:07.519 articles of clothing were later found on the beach, the long sleeved blue shirt 353 00:26:07.599 --> 00:26:12.920 was never recovered. Peter was also seen carrying the same shoulder bag and handheld 354 00:26:12.920 --> 00:26:17.279 bag he had with them when he arrived in Sligo, as well as a 355 00:26:17.279 --> 00:26:22.559 purple plastic bag. When he left the hotel, Peter was captured on CCTV 356 00:26:22.680 --> 00:26:26.359 walking down Quay Street to the Quayside Shopping Center, where, for unknown reasons, 357 00:26:26.720 --> 00:26:30.720 he waited in the doorway for several minutes before walking away again. At 358 00:26:30.759 --> 00:26:37.319 one sixteen pm, I am a little concerned because remember he does have his 359 00:26:37.480 --> 00:26:44.119 speed out and underwear on underneath of these clothes when he's discovered, and we 360 00:26:44.200 --> 00:26:48.640 do find these other articles of clothing around. But that day before, when 361 00:26:48.680 --> 00:26:52.680 he's taken to the beach just very temporarily, just very quickly, what could 362 00:26:52.720 --> 00:26:56.319 that have been for. Was he discarding something and the water? Was he 363 00:26:56.799 --> 00:27:00.200 scoping out where he might try to go the next day? And how far 364 00:27:00.240 --> 00:27:04.240 were those locations from where his body was actually discovered. I think he was 365 00:27:04.279 --> 00:27:07.640 scouting the location, because I don't think he got out of the taxi long 366 00:27:07.720 --> 00:27:11.519 enough to dispose of anything. I think if he was planning suicide, that 367 00:27:11.599 --> 00:27:15.799 maybe says, I want to find a nice beach, and this looks like 368 00:27:15.839 --> 00:27:18.640 a nice place where I can come back tomorrow and then possibly walk into the 369 00:27:18.680 --> 00:27:22.519 water to take my own life. So yeah, he was definitely planning something, 370 00:27:22.599 --> 00:27:26.640 but we'll just never really know why he chose that particular beach. Maybe 371 00:27:26.759 --> 00:27:30.880 I don't know if he had any past familiarity with it, or maybe he 372 00:27:30.039 --> 00:27:33.799 just thought this looks like a nice place. I'll be at peace here when 373 00:27:33.839 --> 00:27:38.160 I die. At one thirty two pm, Peter was shown arriving at the 374 00:27:38.200 --> 00:27:42.920 Sligo bus station, where he stopped at a small cafe in order to cappuccino 375 00:27:44.359 --> 00:27:48.000 and a toasted ham and cheese sandwich. Curiously, by this point, Peter 376 00:27:48.200 --> 00:27:52.160 was only carrying the purple plastic bag and the black shoulder bag, but the 377 00:27:52.200 --> 00:27:56.240 smaller black bag he was seen holding at the hotel was no longer in his 378 00:27:56.279 --> 00:28:02.559 possession and has never been found. After he sat down at the table to 379 00:28:02.599 --> 00:28:06.640 eat, Peter pulled a piece of paper out of his pocket and wrote something 380 00:28:06.680 --> 00:28:08.920 down on it before he proceeded to tear it up and toss it into a 381 00:28:08.960 --> 00:28:14.920 nearby rubbish bin. When he finished eating, Peter soon asked an employee about 382 00:28:14.920 --> 00:28:18.839 the next bus to Ross's Point, and he proceeded to purchase a one way 383 00:28:18.880 --> 00:28:23.240 ticket before the bus left at to forty pm. Starting at four that afternoon, 384 00:28:23.839 --> 00:28:29.240 no less than sixteen witnesses would recall seeing Peter at the same beach he'd 385 00:28:29.319 --> 00:28:33.160 visited in Ross's Point the previous day. These sightings would be spread out over 386 00:28:33.200 --> 00:28:37.480 the course of nearly eight hours, and Peter was seen walking and pacing along 387 00:28:37.519 --> 00:28:41.759 the beach. Some of the witnesses reported him standing in the water in his 388 00:28:41.839 --> 00:28:47.359 bare feet with his trousers rolled up to his knees, and at various points 389 00:28:47.359 --> 00:28:51.400 he was seen with a black bag strapped over his shoulder. The lask and 390 00:28:51.480 --> 00:28:55.799 Firm sighting was from a woman who saw him at eleven fifty pm and said 391 00:28:55.839 --> 00:29:00.799 he was still carrying the purple plastic bag and had his glasses on at the 392 00:29:00.880 --> 00:29:03.559 time. The high tide was scheduled to arrive on the beach within the next 393 00:29:03.599 --> 00:29:07.359 half an hour, and by the following morning, Peter's dead body would be 394 00:29:07.440 --> 00:29:12.119 discovered. In spite of all the articles of clothing and personal items he left 395 00:29:12.119 --> 00:29:17.039 behind on the beach, the black shoulder bag, the purple plastic bag, 396 00:29:17.440 --> 00:29:22.920 and Peter's glasses could not be found anywhere. This is wild, so okay, 397 00:29:22.960 --> 00:29:26.000 there's a lot of people who watch him for hours upon hours, or 398 00:29:26.000 --> 00:29:30.720 at least many people who saw him over the course of these hours pacing the 399 00:29:30.720 --> 00:29:36.319 beach. So part of me feels heartbroken for him that if he was trying 400 00:29:36.400 --> 00:29:40.680 to take his own life, that he's almost I mean, obviously it's daytime, 401 00:29:40.759 --> 00:29:44.079 so he doesn't want to do anything to arouse suspicion, but it's almost 402 00:29:44.200 --> 00:29:51.079 like trying to mentally prepare himself for that. But then there's still an opportunity 403 00:29:51.240 --> 00:29:56.960 or a bizarre chance that something happened to him, Like I mean, can 404 00:29:56.599 --> 00:30:00.720 I know a heart attack and cardiac arrest are different, but is it possible 405 00:30:00.759 --> 00:30:04.640 that an assault could cause him to go into cardiac arrest? He wasn't in 406 00:30:04.680 --> 00:30:10.440 good health anyway. Is it possible that being scared or overwhelmed by someone who 407 00:30:10.759 --> 00:30:15.640 arrived at the beach could have made him have that attack? I guess you 408 00:30:15.640 --> 00:30:18.559 can't rule that out. I mean, the investigator said that there were no 409 00:30:18.680 --> 00:30:22.519 obvious signs of foul play, but if it's just an incident where someone like 410 00:30:22.000 --> 00:30:26.039 yells at him or something or touches him and doesn't leave any noticeable bruises or 411 00:30:26.200 --> 00:30:30.440 marks, it could be a case where they just indirectly caused his heart to 412 00:30:30.480 --> 00:30:33.960 fail and caused him to die from cardiac arrest, which I don't know if 413 00:30:33.960 --> 00:30:37.720 that would technically count as a homicide, But I guess you can't discount the 414 00:30:37.759 --> 00:30:41.880 idea that there was another person present when Peter died, And who knows, 415 00:30:41.960 --> 00:30:45.319 maybe they could have even stolen some of these items that were missing and never 416 00:30:45.359 --> 00:30:52.039 accounted for. Of course, the investigation and failed to uncover any passports or 417 00:30:52.039 --> 00:30:56.039 records for anyone under the name Peter Bergmann which matched this man's age or description 418 00:30:56.319 --> 00:31:02.000 in Europe, North America or South America. While as DNA and fingerprints were 419 00:31:02.039 --> 00:31:07.240 obtained and circulated among various agencies, no match could be found. When the 420 00:31:07.319 --> 00:31:11.279 man known only as Peter Bergmann could not be identified, he was buried in 421 00:31:11.359 --> 00:31:15.039 an unmarked grave in Sligo Town Cemetery in September of two thousand and nine. 422 00:31:15.440 --> 00:31:19.759 This plot had specifically been purchased to very unclaimed bodies, and since it could 423 00:31:19.799 --> 00:31:26.359 hold up to three people, Peter currently has another unidentified decedent buried alongside him. 424 00:31:26.559 --> 00:31:30.400 In twenty thirteen, this story became the subject of a nineteen minute documentary 425 00:31:30.480 --> 00:31:36.519 titled The Last Days of Peter Bergmann, which was screened at the twenty fourteen 426 00:31:36.640 --> 00:31:41.240 Sundance Film Festival and also won the Best Documentary Short Film Award at the twenty 427 00:31:41.319 --> 00:31:48.960 fourteen Melbourne International Film Festival. The director Kieran Cassidy has speculated that Peter may 428 00:31:48.000 --> 00:31:52.039 have traveled to the beach at Ross's Point in hopes of being washed away into 429 00:31:52.079 --> 00:31:57.839 the Atlantic Ocean, stating Bergmann must have wanted to disappear forever into the Atlantic. 430 00:31:59.200 --> 00:32:02.079 But alas for him, the ocean rejected his body and now he lies 431 00:32:02.119 --> 00:32:07.519 in an unmarked grave in Sligo end quote. In most sources I found for 432 00:32:07.559 --> 00:32:10.839 this case, there was no mention of how DNA profiling was being utilized to 433 00:32:10.920 --> 00:32:15.599 identify Peter. But about a month after my original trail went cold episode came 434 00:32:15.640 --> 00:32:22.519 out, the Sligo detectives currently investigating this case released this statement quote, we 435 00:32:22.640 --> 00:32:25.640 don't send DNA to ancestry or other sites. Well, it might advance an 436 00:32:25.680 --> 00:32:31.359 area where Peter might have come from, it doesn't advance his identification end quote. 437 00:32:31.400 --> 00:32:36.160 This story has ballooned into one of Ireland's biggest mysteries of the modern era, 438 00:32:36.480 --> 00:32:39.680 and after nearly fifteen years, the true identity of the middle aged man 439 00:32:39.839 --> 00:32:45.559 known only as Peter Bergmann remains unknown. So I guess you could say the 440 00:32:45.599 --> 00:32:50.960 path went Chiley. Can we all just go back to what this detective says 441 00:32:51.000 --> 00:32:55.359 that while it might advance the area where Peter might have come from, it 442 00:32:55.400 --> 00:33:00.640 does not advance his identification. Today it does, right, We are not 443 00:33:00.920 --> 00:33:05.640 just sending in DNA to say this is my country of origin or this is 444 00:33:05.680 --> 00:33:09.880 where I'm from. We know that genetic genealogy can actually help us link to 445 00:33:10.759 --> 00:33:16.920 close descendants of whoever Peter Bergman actually was. And so while we used to 446 00:33:16.960 --> 00:33:22.200 not be able to have those kinds of links, the advancements have occurred so 447 00:33:22.480 --> 00:33:28.440 quickly and been used for criminal cases over the last several years. Why can't 448 00:33:29.039 --> 00:33:30.359 they send his DNA? And Now, I understand if this is not a 449 00:33:30.400 --> 00:33:35.480 priority case because you have a lot of active cases going on, you have 450 00:33:35.480 --> 00:33:39.440 a lot of cold cases with issues that need to be handled through DNA analysis 451 00:33:39.440 --> 00:33:44.960 and it's expensive, but to say that you can't is problematic to me. 452 00:33:45.119 --> 00:33:50.039 To say we won't given the circumstances, we won't because this is not necessarily 453 00:33:50.200 --> 00:33:54.200 an urgent case. Fine, but I don't think that's a factual statement given 454 00:33:54.200 --> 00:34:00.880 what we know today about potential DNA and genetic genealogy. Mom, I've literally 455 00:34:00.000 --> 00:34:06.160 found her long lost sister on ancestry dot com. That's unbelievable. I guess 456 00:34:06.160 --> 00:34:08.440 it would depend on the laws for certain countries, because your mom's from Canada, 457 00:34:08.519 --> 00:34:13.440 right, Yeah, her sister's in the US. Okay. Because I 458 00:34:13.480 --> 00:34:16.039 haven't been able to find any confirmation on this, any specific details, but 459 00:34:16.119 --> 00:34:21.920 I get the impression that laws for a lot of these genealogy websites are different 460 00:34:22.079 --> 00:34:25.719 in other countries in Europe, and that's why we've only used genetic genealogy to 461 00:34:25.760 --> 00:34:30.800 solve cases in the United States in Canada. So I don't it sounds kind 462 00:34:30.800 --> 00:34:35.920 of like a bureaucratic situation where maybe you just don't have the same rights over 463 00:34:35.960 --> 00:34:39.840 there where, where people who have submitted their DNA to websites like Ancestry, 464 00:34:39.920 --> 00:34:45.480 they just maybe in Europe have not consented to allow their DNA to be used 465 00:34:45.480 --> 00:34:47.559 in some sort of police investigation. Because as far as I can tell, 466 00:34:47.840 --> 00:34:52.800 genetic genealogy is still not being used as a tool in criminal investigations outside North 467 00:34:52.840 --> 00:34:58.719 America. So if you're a true crime follower, you'll probably know that the 468 00:34:58.800 --> 00:35:01.880 last six years have been a pretty amazing time when it comes to identifying John 469 00:35:01.920 --> 00:35:07.000 and Jane does. There's so many cases involving decedents who have remained unidentified for 470 00:35:07.159 --> 00:35:12.679 years, if not decades, but organizations such as the DNA dough Project and 471 00:35:12.719 --> 00:35:16.960 Authorm Incorporated have been able to use such methods as genetic genealogy to track down 472 00:35:17.000 --> 00:35:22.559 these decedans' biological relatives and figure out who they are. In many of these 473 00:35:22.599 --> 00:35:27.000 cases, the public only had an idea of what the decedan looked like through 474 00:35:27.000 --> 00:35:31.039 computer generated composite sketches. But what makes the story of Peter Bergmann stand out 475 00:35:31.480 --> 00:35:37.800 is that he was captured on CCTV several times prior to his death, so 476 00:35:37.840 --> 00:35:40.960 we know what he actually looked like. These images are easily available for viewing 477 00:35:42.000 --> 00:35:45.920 online, yet no one has ever come forward to say that they recognize this 478 00:35:45.039 --> 00:35:50.960 man. You may have already noticed that Peter's story has a number of similarities 479 00:35:51.000 --> 00:35:55.920 to some pretty famous cases involving unidentified decedents. For instance, there's the Tomom's 480 00:35:55.920 --> 00:36:01.920 shoodecase aka the mystery of the Somerton Man, involving an unidentified middle aged male 481 00:36:02.320 --> 00:36:07.360 who was found dead on the Summrton Park Beach in Australia in nineteen forty eight. 482 00:36:07.239 --> 00:36:12.320 Much like Peter Bergman, all of the labels in the Summerton Man's clothing 483 00:36:12.320 --> 00:36:15.039 were removed and it seemed like he had gone to great lengths to conceal his 484 00:36:15.119 --> 00:36:21.000 identity. But during the summer of twenty twenty two, it was announced that 485 00:36:21.039 --> 00:36:25.440 based on genetic genealogy, the Somerton Man had likely been identified as an electrical 486 00:36:25.440 --> 00:36:30.840 engineer named Charles Carl Webb. The details of Webb's death are still not entirely 487 00:36:30.920 --> 00:36:36.119 clear, but he had a history of serious mental health issues, including one 488 00:36:36.159 --> 00:36:40.320 previous suicide attempt. Since Webb's wife had left the abuse of marriage and he 489 00:36:40.400 --> 00:36:45.079 lost four close relatives over the course of seven years, it's been theorized that 490 00:36:45.119 --> 00:36:47.920 his death could have been a suicide. And who is to say that Peter 491 00:36:49.000 --> 00:36:53.599 Bergmann couldn't have had a similar backstory exactly? And what else was he struggling 492 00:36:53.639 --> 00:36:59.440 with where he has this cancer diagnosis. It's likelihoend his life. He could 493 00:36:59.639 --> 00:37:02.840 very well all have a problematic family life or feel as though he's become a 494 00:37:02.840 --> 00:37:07.559 burden on his family and feels a need to leave or to get out with 495 00:37:07.639 --> 00:37:12.440 dignity, and so he's trying to, like they said, go out with 496 00:37:12.519 --> 00:37:15.480 the Atlantic. But again, this is my case in point. We have 497 00:37:15.800 --> 00:37:22.639 cases that are decades and decades old where we have an unidentified individual and through 498 00:37:22.719 --> 00:37:27.320 this genetic genealogy we're able to identify who they are. And so my prayer 499 00:37:27.360 --> 00:37:32.639 is that the databases and DNA technology in European countries and in Ireland is growing 500 00:37:34.079 --> 00:37:37.960 and it's one of those things that when it becomes more accessible, that it 501 00:37:37.039 --> 00:37:42.320 is used in a case just like Peters. That's what we're finding out these 502 00:37:42.960 --> 00:37:46.239 that's the beauty of these databases. And so we know people over in Ireland 503 00:37:46.280 --> 00:37:51.639 and Europe are doing the tests. Are they being used in criminal justice cases 504 00:37:51.800 --> 00:37:54.679 or in these kind of unknown cases? Possibly not. But my prayer is, 505 00:37:54.760 --> 00:38:00.159 because we know it works, why wouldn't law enforcement agencies start turning to 506 00:38:00.199 --> 00:38:05.519 this as a standard practice. I mean, they've identified someone from who died 507 00:38:05.519 --> 00:38:08.400 in nineteen forty eight because of genetic genealogy. Like many people thought that the 508 00:38:08.400 --> 00:38:14.760 Somerton Man was going to be one of history's truly unsolvable mysteries that people like 509 00:38:14.840 --> 00:38:16.880 talked about for decades. Yet here we are and they've been able to figure 510 00:38:16.880 --> 00:38:22.320 out who this guy was, so anything is possible. Peter's story is also 511 00:38:22.400 --> 00:38:30.280 reminiscent of two other cases involving individuals who checked into hotels under false names before 512 00:38:30.320 --> 00:38:34.920 they turned up dead. If you've watched the Unsolved Mysteries reboot on Netflix, 513 00:38:35.280 --> 00:38:39.079 you're probably familiar with the story of an unidentified woman who checked into the Uzza 514 00:38:39.199 --> 00:38:45.840 Plaza hotel in Norway under the name Jennifer Fairgate in nineteen ninety five. Like 515 00:38:45.920 --> 00:38:50.559 Peter, she was never asked to provide any identification and booked the room for 516 00:38:50.639 --> 00:38:53.440 three nights, and she would eventually be found dead on her bed after an 517 00:38:53.480 --> 00:38:59.960 apparent self inflicted gunshot wound. In both the Somerton Man and Jennifer Fairgate came, 518 00:39:00.960 --> 00:39:05.000 one of the most prominent theories is that they were spies, So I 519 00:39:05.039 --> 00:39:08.960 suppose it's not surprising that this theory has also been presented for Peter Bergman as 520 00:39:08.960 --> 00:39:14.599 well. The other famous case that we were referring to took place in September 521 00:39:14.639 --> 00:39:17.800 two thousand and one and involved a young man who checked into a motel in 522 00:39:17.840 --> 00:39:22.519 Amanda Park, Washington, under the false name Lyle Stevick, before he subsequently 523 00:39:22.599 --> 00:39:27.960 hanged himself in the closet. In May twenty eighteen, it was announced that 524 00:39:28.000 --> 00:39:32.840 the DNA dough Project had used genetic genealogy to track down Lyle's biological family, 525 00:39:34.559 --> 00:39:38.039 but in the interest of privacy, all details about his true identity and backstory 526 00:39:38.400 --> 00:39:43.800 have been kept secret from the public. It's been theorized that Lyle Stevick took 527 00:39:43.840 --> 00:39:46.719 steps to ensure his family never found out what happened to him. And it's 528 00:39:46.800 --> 00:39:52.199 possible that Peter Bergmann may have done the same thing. There don't seem to 529 00:39:52.239 --> 00:39:55.199 be many reasons you wouldn't use your legal name to chuck into a hotel either. 530 00:39:55.239 --> 00:40:00.760 I think you would be having a concern that somebody was after you or 531 00:40:00.840 --> 00:40:02.760 dangerous, or it could be looking for you, like a domestic violent situation, 532 00:40:04.159 --> 00:40:08.920 or even something bigger like a spy situation, or you have a debt 533 00:40:09.000 --> 00:40:14.599 to handle and you haven't, So those kinds of issues could explain why you 534 00:40:14.639 --> 00:40:17.280 would be using a false name. If you're incredibly famous, I could see 535 00:40:17.360 --> 00:40:21.880 hiding under a false name so that the publicity and the notoriety's not there. 536 00:40:22.480 --> 00:40:27.559 But I could also see this situation where someone says, I need to leave. 537 00:40:28.360 --> 00:40:31.159 I am coming and taking this trip to complete suicide and to end my 538 00:40:31.199 --> 00:40:36.880 life, and therefore I don't want my family to necessarily know that. There's 539 00:40:36.920 --> 00:40:39.159 a lot of shame that people carry when they're suffering with depression like that, 540 00:40:39.320 --> 00:40:43.280 or they want to end their life and their famili's fighting so hard for them 541 00:40:43.320 --> 00:40:46.480 to live, especially through a cancer treatment and things like that. So I 542 00:40:46.519 --> 00:40:52.119 could very well see Peter either having that kind of delirium and worry and being 543 00:40:52.119 --> 00:40:57.360 on this trip and kind of not necessarily being in his right mind, or 544 00:40:57.400 --> 00:41:00.480 I could also see him saying, I have a very clear plan, I 545 00:41:00.519 --> 00:41:01.320 know what I want to do, but I don't want to hurt the people 546 00:41:01.360 --> 00:41:06.199 who care about me, and I'm going to see if I can lead them 547 00:41:06.199 --> 00:41:08.440 to believe that I've left and that I can in my life and let the 548 00:41:08.440 --> 00:41:12.920 pain go away. Because we know he was suffering significantly, there just doesn't 549 00:41:12.960 --> 00:41:16.400 seem to be many other options out there. I mean, there is always 550 00:41:16.440 --> 00:41:22.440 a circumstance that he was being followed or watched or wanted, but the cardiac 551 00:41:22.519 --> 00:41:28.440 arrest makes it seem as though he really was severely ill and he knew that, 552 00:41:28.639 --> 00:41:31.280 and he knew his life was coming towards an end, and therefore it's 553 00:41:31.320 --> 00:41:35.960 one of these things that makes it lean towards that suicide is the most probable 554 00:41:36.320 --> 00:41:39.199 instance here. Yeah, that definitely makes sense. I guess the big unsolved 555 00:41:39.239 --> 00:41:44.800 mystery is why he would choose this particular town in Ireland in order to end 556 00:41:44.840 --> 00:41:47.400 his life, because it was obviously he was not from the area, so 557 00:41:47.480 --> 00:41:51.239 I just always wondered was he there in the past, and did he like 558 00:41:51.320 --> 00:41:54.199 this place? And this is why he chose this particular area for suicide. 559 00:41:54.559 --> 00:42:00.000 But until he's identified, we will probably never know, so I suppose we 560 00:42:00.039 --> 00:42:05.400 need to address the question about whether or not Peter should be identified. In 561 00:42:05.480 --> 00:42:09.440 June of twenty nineteen, The Irish Times released a three part podcast about this 562 00:42:09.519 --> 00:42:15.760 case titled Atlantic The Unsolved Mystery of Peter Bergmann, hosted by journalist Rosita Boland. 563 00:42:16.360 --> 00:42:21.400 At one point, Boland did discuss the potential ethical issues of trying to 564 00:42:21.480 --> 00:42:25.280 uncover Peter's identity. If Peter took all these steps to ensure he could not 565 00:42:25.400 --> 00:42:30.599 be identified, should everyone respect his wishes and let him rest in peace. 566 00:42:30.360 --> 00:42:35.239 It would be one thing if foul play had taken place and a homicide investigation 567 00:42:35.360 --> 00:42:38.760 was required, but there are cases in which decedents have died by suicide and 568 00:42:38.800 --> 00:42:43.400 it seemed apparent that they just wanted to be left alone and forgotten about. 569 00:42:44.280 --> 00:42:47.159 However, I've always personally held the belief that no matter what their final wishes 570 00:42:47.159 --> 00:42:51.880 may have been, there still needs to be an investigation to find out where 571 00:42:51.880 --> 00:42:55.440 they were. I mentioned this particular case on our podcast so many times that 572 00:42:55.519 --> 00:43:00.000 I must sound like a broken record, but I must want, I must 573 00:43:00.079 --> 00:43:02.800 once again harkened back to the Gail Delano case, which has always been a 574 00:43:02.840 --> 00:43:07.719 serious influence on my opinion about stories like this. As a quick refresher, 575 00:43:08.079 --> 00:43:13.400 Gail Delano vanished from her hometown in Maine, and her disappearance would be featured 576 00:43:13.440 --> 00:43:17.239 on Unsolved Mysteries and Toil, a medical examiner who watched this show, recognized 577 00:43:17.280 --> 00:43:21.920 Gail as a Jane Doe, whom he had found dead inside a hotel room 578 00:43:22.119 --> 00:43:25.480 in Mobile, Alabama, two years earlier for reasons that are known only to 579 00:43:25.559 --> 00:43:30.079 her. Gail had decided to travel there and register at the hotel under a 580 00:43:30.119 --> 00:43:36.039 false name before she overdosed. It's possible she did not want her relatives to 581 00:43:36.079 --> 00:43:38.400 ever find out what happened to her. And while it's true that some of 582 00:43:38.440 --> 00:43:43.679 these other decedents might have been estranged from their own families, that was definitely 583 00:43:43.679 --> 00:43:46.920 not the case with Gail. You could clearly tell that her family was suffering 584 00:43:47.000 --> 00:43:52.559 during their Unsolved Mysteries interviews, and it would have been a major tragedy if 585 00:43:52.599 --> 00:43:55.519 Gail had remained a missing person and they had to keep living with the uncertainty 586 00:43:55.599 --> 00:44:00.559 for the rest of their lives. Well, it's possible that Peter Bergen was 587 00:44:00.599 --> 00:44:04.840 a complete loaner with no family or friends. He may also have loved ones 588 00:44:04.880 --> 00:44:08.599 out there somewhere who spent the past fifteen years not knowing what happened to him. 589 00:44:08.960 --> 00:44:13.880 For this reason, I believe there is an obligation to keep seeking out 590 00:44:13.920 --> 00:44:17.599 his true identity. Now, what separates Peter's story from the other cases we've 591 00:44:17.639 --> 00:44:22.519 discussed is that the autopsy showed he was in the advanced stages of prostate cancer. 592 00:44:22.960 --> 00:44:25.840 So no matter what it seemed like, he was not going to live 593 00:44:25.920 --> 00:44:30.000 much longer than a couple more weeks. It sounds like he wanted to spend 594 00:44:30.039 --> 00:44:35.519 some time in County Sligo before ending his life on his own terms. But 595 00:44:35.639 --> 00:44:38.719 the big mystery is where did he come from and why did he choose his 596 00:44:38.800 --> 00:44:45.599 particular location. That is a really powerful question. I actually never thought of 597 00:44:45.599 --> 00:44:50.320 it from that perspective of do you let someone rest in peace and kind of 598 00:44:50.360 --> 00:44:53.280 honor what it seems their wishes were. But I'm with you, Robin, 599 00:44:53.559 --> 00:45:00.360 from all of the families I've worked with, and all of the professionals and 600 00:45:00.440 --> 00:45:06.320 grief advocates and victim advocates. When you talk to families, they will consistently 601 00:45:06.400 --> 00:45:10.719 tell you the only thing worse than what happened to my love when via homicide, 602 00:45:10.840 --> 00:45:16.440 via an attack the death right would be not knowing having a missing person. 603 00:45:17.360 --> 00:45:21.079 They'll tell you that, you know, I want to know the details. 604 00:45:21.480 --> 00:45:24.440 I want to know what happened, because when I don't, I fill 605 00:45:24.440 --> 00:45:30.920 it in myself. Right, these families have a obsession almost with wondering what 606 00:45:30.239 --> 00:45:35.559 happened when you don't have an answer, than every answer is a possibility. 607 00:45:35.679 --> 00:45:42.679 And so I think the kind of over overwhelming questioning you would be doing, 608 00:45:42.800 --> 00:45:45.960 the way that you would just want to know why and what and how, 609 00:45:46.480 --> 00:45:52.880 that you would actually have nightmaric situations in your head that you would be playing 610 00:45:52.920 --> 00:45:54.880 constantly. I have to know what happened to my child. I have to 611 00:45:54.920 --> 00:45:59.960 know what happened to my husband. I have to know where their body is. 612 00:46:00.639 --> 00:46:05.320 Those are really important questions for someone who's grieving. And when you leave 613 00:46:05.519 --> 00:46:09.719 and you disappear, the grief is significant, and the fear and the trauma 614 00:46:09.800 --> 00:46:15.159 and the way that I, you know, I hypothesize what happened to you 615 00:46:15.280 --> 00:46:19.840 is often far worse than the really grim, dark reality that these families find 616 00:46:19.840 --> 00:46:24.159 out eventually. They want to know so to me, when I hear the 617 00:46:24.239 --> 00:46:28.440 worst case scenario would be if our child was missing, the worst case scenario 618 00:46:28.440 --> 00:46:31.039 would be if my husband was missing and they hadn't found his body, I 619 00:46:31.119 --> 00:46:37.519 think the family needs to be informed. Speaking of broken records, I will 620 00:46:37.519 --> 00:46:39.639 bring up Julia Murray again, and I know, just like Gail Delano has 621 00:46:39.679 --> 00:46:43.960 been brought up a lot. I often use Julia Murray as an example, 622 00:46:44.000 --> 00:46:47.559 but I just remember when she spoken to Ashley and I and she talked about 623 00:46:47.599 --> 00:46:53.519 her open ended trauma of not knowing where Mora was. And in a situation 624 00:46:53.639 --> 00:46:58.000 where you have somebody who wants to end their own life and they're taking all 625 00:46:58.119 --> 00:47:04.880 these measures to avoid being identified, you have to ask the question of are 626 00:47:04.920 --> 00:47:09.360 they in their right mental state at that point in time to make a decision 627 00:47:09.400 --> 00:47:15.079 such as that that has such far reaching implications and consequences for their loved ones. 628 00:47:15.519 --> 00:47:21.559 If they were at their very best mental health wise, would they make 629 00:47:21.599 --> 00:47:24.400 that decision for themselves at the end? And I think the answer is typically 630 00:47:24.559 --> 00:47:29.800 no. So I'm in agreement with both of you and that I do understand 631 00:47:30.239 --> 00:47:34.360 when somebody ends their own life and you know that maybe there could be a 632 00:47:34.440 --> 00:47:39.440 level of respect for their wishes, but I think in an overwhelming number of 633 00:47:39.440 --> 00:47:45.119 circumstances, unless they're trying to escape an abusive partner or something like that, 634 00:47:45.440 --> 00:47:49.280 or a situation where they were being harmed in some way, I do think 635 00:47:49.280 --> 00:47:52.760 the family has the right to know because it is something that they will carry 636 00:47:52.800 --> 00:47:57.760 with them forever, and at least that would provide a resolution. I agree, 637 00:47:57.760 --> 00:48:01.159 And I think when suicide becomes an option, it's that life is no 638 00:48:01.239 --> 00:48:08.119 longer a viable outcome for you, and a lot of times these individuals feel 639 00:48:08.119 --> 00:48:12.480 that they are a burden on the people around them, that they've caused significant 640 00:48:12.480 --> 00:48:16.159 distress that it cannot be healed now for Peter, if the mission really was 641 00:48:16.199 --> 00:48:22.480 suicide. I also think when a fatal illness is staring you down, I 642 00:48:22.480 --> 00:48:25.079 think there's been many people who have said, I want to go out on 643 00:48:25.079 --> 00:48:29.199 my own terms with dignity, where I still have my faculties about me, 644 00:48:29.320 --> 00:48:32.639 where I still am able to stand, I'm able to go to the restroom 645 00:48:32.679 --> 00:48:35.880 by myself, I'm able to do these things, and I want to die 646 00:48:35.880 --> 00:48:38.960 with dignity. So I think that in this case is probably more the case 647 00:48:39.000 --> 00:48:44.199 if he was completing suicide. But you also hear of people who say, 648 00:48:44.239 --> 00:48:46.280 I just I'm too much on my family, I'm hurting them, I'm a 649 00:48:46.320 --> 00:48:50.079 burden. This problem is so big, I can't get over it. And 650 00:48:50.119 --> 00:48:53.320 so, like you said, Jules, when you actually talk to family members 651 00:48:53.400 --> 00:48:58.320 after the death of a loved one via suicide, that issue was not something 652 00:48:58.360 --> 00:49:01.679 we couldn't overcome. Warakness was not something we couldn't bring light to. Right, 653 00:49:01.760 --> 00:49:06.199 They're not a burden to me. Whether it's medical issues, whether it's 654 00:49:06.280 --> 00:49:09.320 their mental health, whether it's something they've done to our family. It's a 655 00:49:09.559 --> 00:49:14.159 problem that we could have overcome had I known, or it's something I would 656 00:49:14.159 --> 00:49:16.519 have gotten help had I known, or there's someone in their life that needed 657 00:49:16.519 --> 00:49:20.559 them. And so I think for Peter it might have been more medical based 658 00:49:20.559 --> 00:49:22.679 and dying with dignity, which is not always allowed. You know, we 659 00:49:22.760 --> 00:49:29.480 have euthanasia laws, and some states and some countries do allow for people to 660 00:49:29.679 --> 00:49:36.679 choose when they're facing a disease that's going to end and death. But if 661 00:49:36.679 --> 00:49:38.679 Peter didn't have that option, or if his family didn't wanted to take that 662 00:49:38.719 --> 00:49:43.079 option, this seemed to be a way that he could go out with dignity. 663 00:49:43.599 --> 00:49:46.400 I still think his family needed to know, so I think this would 664 00:49:46.440 --> 00:49:50.239 be a good time to bring it into part one. But join us next 665 00:49:50.280 --> 00:49:53.159 week as we present part two of our series about the death of Peter Bergmann. 666 00:49:54.800 --> 00:49:58.000 Robin, do you want to tell us a little bit about the Trailment 667 00:49:58.079 --> 00:50:00.639 Cold? Patreon, Yes, I don't call. Patreon has been around for 668 00:50:00.719 --> 00:50:06.679 three years now, and we offer these standard bonus features like early ad free 669 00:50:06.719 --> 00:50:10.360 episodes, and I also send out stickers and sign thank you cards to anyone 670 00:50:10.400 --> 00:50:14.960 who signs up with us on Patreon. If you join our five dollars tier 671 00:50:15.320 --> 00:50:20.760 tier two, we also offer monthly bonus episodes in which I talk about cases 672 00:50:20.800 --> 00:50:23.679 which are not featured on the Trail Went Cold's original feed, so they're exclusive 673 00:50:23.719 --> 00:50:28.320 to Patreon, and if you join our highest tier tier three, the ten 674 00:50:28.400 --> 00:50:32.119 dollar tier. One of the features we offer is a audio commentary track over 675 00:50:32.159 --> 00:50:37.000 classic episodes of Unsaved Mysteries, where you can download an audio file and then 676 00:50:37.400 --> 00:50:43.599 boot up the original Unsolved Mysteries episode on Amazon Prime or YouTube and play it 677 00:50:43.639 --> 00:50:46.519 with my audio commentary playing in the background, where I just provide trivia and 678 00:50:46.599 --> 00:50:52.239 factoids about the cases featured in this episode, and incidentally, the very first 679 00:50:52.280 --> 00:50:55.519 episode that I did a commentary track over was the episode featuring this case. 680 00:50:55.599 --> 00:51:00.400 So if you want to download a commentary track in which I make more smart 681 00:51:00.400 --> 00:51:04.519 ass remarks about Jewel Kaylor, then be sure to join Tier three. So 682 00:51:04.559 --> 00:51:07.840 I want to let you know a little bit about the Jewels and nashty patreons. 683 00:51:07.840 --> 00:51:10.719 So there's early ad free episodes of The Path Went Chili. We've got 684 00:51:10.719 --> 00:51:15.239 our Pathwent Chili mini's, which are always over an hour, so they're not 685 00:51:15.440 --> 00:51:17.400 very mini, but they're just too short to turn into a series, and 686 00:51:17.480 --> 00:51:22.159 we're really enjoying doing those, so we hope you'll check out those patreons. 687 00:51:22.199 --> 00:51:24.360 We'll link them in the show notes. So I want to thank you all 688 00:51:24.400 --> 00:51:28.719 for listening, and any chance you have to share us on social media with 689 00:51:28.800 --> 00:51:31.320 a friend or to rate and review is greatly appreciate it. You can email 690 00:51:31.400 --> 00:51:35.840 us at The Pathwent Chili at gmail dot com. You can reach us on 691 00:51:35.880 --> 00:51:38.639 Twitter at the Pathwin. So until next time, be sure to bundle up 692 00:51:38.760 --> 00:51:44.320 because cold trails and chili pass call for warm clothing. Music by Paul Rich 693 00:51:44.360 --> 00:51:45.320 from the podcast Cold Callers Comedy