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In a chilling revelation at the recent
Conservative Political Action Conference commonly known as Seapack,

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ultra right wing republican Jack Prosbyak stated, and I quote, welcome to

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the end of democracy. We are
here to overthrow it completely. We don't

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get all didn't get all the way
there on January sixth, but we will

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endeavor to get rid of it and
replace it with this right here, and

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then he held up a chain with
the big cross on it. Following in

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lockstep, former Weiss House advisor and
outspoken white supremacist Steve Banyon yelled out Amen

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amidst fervent cheers. Prosobiacs declaration demonstrates
the GOP's majoritarian embrace of theoretic theocratic authoritarianism.

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Republicans of parent zeal to dismantle Americans
democratic institutions, often implied or spoken

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behind closed doors, is now out
of the closet for all to know.

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As the specter of authoritarianism loons large. For Sovieacs remark serve as a stark

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reminder of the perilous path are weakened
democracy faces in the hands of its detractors.

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This is a story based on the
New Republic article by Tory oughten,

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February twenty third, twenty twenty four. So Scott, what do you think,

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you know out of the closet?
Indeed, right, And so you

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know they're not only saying the quiet
parts all allowed these days, but it's

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all quiet parts, right. And
so you know, Churchill famously said democracy

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is the worst form of government except
for all of the others, and so

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we're going to we may get a
chance to experience that ourselves. And you

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know, it's it's really kind of
ironic, you know, and it would

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be hilarious if it weren't so ominous
and terrifying. It's it's, you know,

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we start, you know, power
to the people quickly fades to power

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to some people, and that even
goes to power to one person, right,

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And so's it's the freedom that is
afforded to individuals, especially people who

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find themselves in position of power.
They exercise that freedom to maintain that power.

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They they kind of push the you
know, they push the envelope there.

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They try to manipulate the system.
And if democracy is getting in the

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way, then democracy has to go, right, And so that's really the

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issue that they're talking about here.
I found a book review from a Georgetown

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professor by the name of Fetali Mogatam. He wrote this book. He sees

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that fear and crisis management is the
tool that can slap the manacles of dictatorship

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onto the free hands of democracy.
He thinks that that is really the motivator

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here. We've heard that before.
We've talked about this kind of thing on

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the nonprofits before, but it's really
fear as a motivator. His book is

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called Threat to Democracy The Appeal of
Authoritarianism in an Age of Uncertainty, and

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he talks about in the book about
how, you know, we've seen this

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kind of thing happen before. We've
seen the individuals using fear within the context

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of a free or at least a
semi free society, and they use that

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to kind of rile up their support
and you know, don't worry, I

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can save us, right. They
present it, and you know, we've

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seen this kind of thing in religion
all the time. They mock up this

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threat. You know, they fan
the flames of fear and then they say,

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hey, I'm the only one who
can solve your problem. Put me

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in charge, right, And then
of course it gets to be too late.

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In the book, he points out, the dictator then attacks institutions and

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individuals that have the power to constrain
them. Such crisis incidents in the past

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have included the Iran hostage crisis that
swept Commani into power and the twenty sixteen

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coup that brought Airdwan to power in
Turkey. And so here's the interesting thing

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about his book though. He believes
that the people who want open societies would

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be better served with a bottom up
approach. It's about people talking about things.

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It's about people broaching those previously you
know, no touch subjects. He

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said, we need more civic engagement
and civic education, and we need to

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strengthen local activists. We've got a
lot of emphasis at the moment on national

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efforts, but we also need to
get down at the local level. Resistance

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through local activism is often the most
successful. And so what that means is

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that we need to be active.
We need to have those difficult political conversations.

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I think that in this case it
might be a case where light can

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be the most infectant, I'm sorry, the most effective disinfectant. Right.

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We want if we shine light on
the issue. At least that's what this

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He's a psychologist. At least that's
what he thinks is that if we can

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get people talking, if we can
raise awareness of what's happening, then we'll

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be in a much better position to
combat it and Fidel. My biggest concern

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is that people are going to look
at this and they're going to take it

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with oh, clickbait mentality. We
hear so many outrageous things being said time

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and again that I'm not sure that
most people are even going to take this

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seriously. But I think we should. And this is going to be somebody

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that I'm sure is real popular with
everyone here. But years ago, a

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federal Robert Borke, wrote a book
called Slouting towards Gomora, and I have

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a feeling that we as a country
right now are just kind of slip sliding,

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slouting towards Gilead, where we have
a group of people in this country

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they want a theocracy. I don't
think that they're just saying this to rile

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people up. I think they're saying
this because that's what they want. They

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want a power grab so they can
get control of this country. And this

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is no exception. They believe that
their God should dictate to government, not

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government rights coming from the government,
but since their rights come from God,

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they should listen to God first.
This is lowest common denominator politics. This

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is something to reach out and grab
those people who honestly aren't educated on the

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subjects that matter. And this is
what concerns me, because they are going

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to vote and do the things that
they want to do based on their emotions

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and what sounds good and what fits
what they hear at church. More than

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what's better for the people around us
or as you mentioned, the local community,

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what's best for the people in their
community, or even themselves, they

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consistently act against their own self interest. Honestly, I will admit that this

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is a mix, in my opinion, of true believers and your typical opportunitists.

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And oftentimes, of course you have
believers who well, they're going to

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take some opportunities on the side too. And I really hope that the exposure

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to this type of talk and to
this type of rhetoric, they're projecting out

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what they want, what their goal
is. I just hope it's and it's

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our job to make sure that we
take people when they say this at their

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word. Because they don't want to
democracy, they want a theocracy. Kelly,

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Yeah, you're right. I think
a lot of people don't realize that

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going to a theocracy what that would
do to us, And they think that

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the entire country would go for something
like that, and that is the only

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way to solve our problems, because
God's the perfect problem solver, right.

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I don't think that that's the way
to go. Obviously, there's a lot

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of problems to come with it.
There's a reason why our founding fathers made

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the separation between government and religion.
We talked about it earlier this week and

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another story about how you know,
a conflict between Protestants and Catholics, and

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I again, this is that same
problem where these Christian nationalists have this idea

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that everybody thinks the exact same way
they do, and I don't think they

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realize how small of a minority that
they actually are. Three and ten Americans

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actually identify as Christian nationalists. Now, how does that three and ten?

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Not all of them, when asked, gave the same definition of what a

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Christian nationalist is, so a lot
of them didn't realize what exactly the term

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represents. They thought, Hey,
I'm a Christian, I love this country.

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I think this is a Great Nation. So yeah, I guess I'm

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a Christian nationalist. They don't realize
what these group of fanatical people like pasobiac

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who are and what they're trying to
push. So I don't even think that

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three and ten Americans are Christian nationalists. And so then I start thinking about

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this, is this something that we
get fired up about? This? We're

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always talking about it. They are
the enemy in a lot of ways.

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But are we overstating the danger from
these people? I mean, if they're

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not three and ten, let's conservatively
say they're two and ten, we can

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beat them in any election. We
can beat them in a fight if we

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had to. Is this really is
Are they really the big danger that we

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think we are, not that we
shouldn't be saying telling everybody what they're they

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are, Like Scott says, this
is what we need to do is inform

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people and bring the light from the
top from the bottom up right. But

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I have to wonder if we're just
kind of like overblowing the problem. Richard.

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I wish what you're saying was true, but I think it's exactly the

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opposite of that. First of all, they've got a majority of friends on

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the Supreme Court. Yes they do. They got five. They got five

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Catholics on the Supreme Court. Not
you didn't listen carefully. I didn't say

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Christian nationalists. I said friends.
And that court has been giving more leeway

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and twisting the First Amendment around to
make it be like it's a benefit for

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religion to not be picked on as
opposed to non religions to be picked on.

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It's transforming, it's changing, and
it's not good. I mean,

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I follow this los stuff very carefully, and it's scary. Okay. There

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have been some decisions recently, like
the one in Washington about the coach being

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allowed to give prayers at the end
of the football game, which would never

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have had happened at a previous court
never, So it's something we really need

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to worry about. Besides that they
have the Heritage Foundation on their twenty twenty

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five program and they've got some billionaires
behind them, so it's you know,

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you don't have to be the biggest
group if you're well organized. And when

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you said we could fight them,
I beg to differ with you. I

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would bet that more of those Christian
nationalists have ar fifteens than secular humanists do.

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So I think we've got to be
really careful about this and not you

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know, I mean they're trying to
take over school boards and start book banning.

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Look what happened in Florida. I
mean it happens in Texas too.

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I mean they tried to put it. They tried to put pastors in for

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school counselors that had no school counseling
training. They're trying to infuse their ideology

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at all levels. And they're getting
away with it quite a bit, fighting

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it a lot. They haven't won
it yet, and you know, but

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but I think it's more dangerous because
they want to do it, and they're

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willing to do it, and in
some respects they have some foreign allies,

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which is very unfortunate. But we
just have to be really careful when we

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see that stuff happening and speak out
against it, stand up against it.

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The thing that most people don't realize, well, first of all, there's

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an education problem, you know,
for the same reason why a lot of

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us are involved in this organization.
There's a lot of people that were not

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taught as they grew up to be
skeptical. They were taught to believe whatever

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some authority told them. That creates
a horrible problem. But the other side

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of it that when I talk to
some of these people, you know,

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they think, well, the guy
that I want to be in charge,

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he'll be my friend. Guess what
he dies, His son takes over or

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his cousin takes over, and he
doesn't like you. And now there's no

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courts to go to. There's no
due process, there's nothing, just the

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dictator. That's the I mean,
look at the way Putin runs Russia.

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If you don't like his stuff,
you fall out of a six story building.

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I mean that's you know, there's
no place to complain there. And

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that's the difference. I mean,
our legal system has problems, but I'll

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tell you it's head and shoulders above
most others. And at least you're going

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to have your day in court,
and you know there are people to help

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you if somebody messes with you.
So I am deeply concerned about this move

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towards theocracy. I find it very
scary. Scott. Yeah, Richard,

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you said something about an education problem, and I agree with that. I

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totally agree with that. Kelly,
you said that three and ten Americans identify

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as Christian nationalists. Last time I
was on the nonprofits. I quoted some

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research that said over half of American
adults know nothing about Christian nationalism. They've

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never heard anything about it. And
I would imagine that those two groups are

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heavily, heavily overlapping. I would
bet that many of those people that said,

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yeah, I'm a christ just like
you were saying, they saw the

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word Christian there and they saw kind
off on it. They scrolled right to

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the bottom of that user agreement and
sign their name. And so I think

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I agree with doctor mcgottam, and
I think that, uh, you know,

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education, I think is a key. There was one quote from the

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article that I wanted to bring up
here, and I think that will kind

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of illustrate what we're talking about here. He said, we didn't get all

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the way here all the way there
on January sixth, but we will endeavor

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to get rid of it and replace
it with this right here, he said,

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gesturing to the crowd and holding up
his fist. All glory is not

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to government, all glory to God. And then just here, correct you,

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I saw the actual thing. He
didn't hold up his fist, he

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held up across on a chain.
Even better, even better. Okay,

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so that's where it was. But
then Bannon his response was to laugh and

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say amen. And so you know, I have to wonder, and I

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know, I'm I might be the
only one on the panel here that thinks

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this, but I wonder if I
wonder if the the religion aspect is just

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merely a tool. I wonder if
it's just a way of firing up that

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fear you know, we need.
It's a it's a convenient tool. I'm

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not convinced that the Christian nationalist leaders
are in fact concerned at all about the

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Christianity. I'm not going I don't. I don't think that that that's their

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main thing. I don't think that
they're I don't think that they want a

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theocracy. I think that they want
a dictatorship. And again, you know,

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I I I may or may not
be the only one who thinks that,

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but I it's it's frightening, and
it's it's something that that people can

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you know, people hold their religion
very tightly to their identity, and that

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makes them vulnerable for that. You
know, we see you know people,

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you find out what's important to a
person and you attack that thing, or

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you you pose you you make it
seem like that thing is being attacked.

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You make it seem like that identity
is being attacked. You make it seem

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like your religious faith is being attacked. Your God is is you know,

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is being attacked here. Your belief
in your God is being attacked. What

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more could be foundational to your personality
than and your belief in your God?

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And that's being threatened? What are
you going to do about it? You

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know? And and so it's that
kind of thing. I think that there's

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plenty of manipulation going on here.
I think that, And again, maybe

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I'm being cynical, maybe I'm being
you know, paranoid here, but we

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we see it happen frequently, you
know. We see we see candidates holding

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up bibles, we see you know, preaching from front, we see uh

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electioneering happening at the pulpits. We
see all this, all this kind of

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overlap. And I think that that
blurriness. I think that lack of education

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in this case is a feature and
not a bug, and I think that's

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being I think things are being misused. And I think that again going back

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to doctor Mogotham's idea that we need
to talk about, we need to encourage

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discussion, We need to talk to
each other. We need to help spread

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that. We need to solve that
education problem Richard, that you were talking

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about. And really the only way
to do that is to be open and

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to be and to talk to other
people. Breach those conversations, have that

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conversation with that uncle that you know, you know it's going to be uncomfortable,

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but talking about it can help.
And you know, it might not

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change that person's mind, but there
might be somebody watching that that will that

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will be affected, or at least
they will be a little bit more knowledgeable

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about the situation. Maybe we can
move that dial. You know, fifty

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four percent, I think it was
of Americans that had no idea what Christian

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nationalism was. We can push that. Maybe, if we can, you

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know, push that, you know, down in the in the negative direction,

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then we can help things. Maybe
we can make a difference by doing

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things like we're doing right now,
having these discussions with each other, by

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watching discussions online, or you know, encouraging discussions online. You know,

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there are things that we can do
to overcome that education problem. And of

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course I'm biased as being an educator. You know, I think that education

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is power, and I think this
is an perfect example of that particular idea.

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Infidel. I do think that education
is one of the big tools that

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they themselves fear. You know,
we look at situation in North Carolina where

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lieutenant governor just got he's running for
governor now, and he wants to remove

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social studies and science up until the
fifth grade. He doesn't even want to

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be even being taught in class because
they want an ignorant population. They want

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a series of people who go,
oh, okay, this sounds right.

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They want people who are sitting week
in and week out with their electioneering pastor

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spewing hate and nonsense and all sorts
of vile things over that pullpit to those

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people's that's what they want. And
I do think you're right. And as

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I mentioned earlier, there are some
true believers in there, you know.

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I take Mike Johnson. I believe
he's a true believer, But overall there's

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many who are just opportunists. They're
looking for a dictatorship. They're looking to

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replace our government with something else.
And right now, they know that there

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are people on that side who yes, see the world around them changing and

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through that are fearful of those changes, and they're getting told day in and

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day out when they go to church
that there's a problem, that the problem

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is them and not you, and
that's reinforcing it. And inside of that

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echo chamber, my concern is is, yes, in time, those numbers

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are continuing to go against them.
They're dwindling, they're hurting, the churches

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are dying, their attendance is going
dropping consistently. But right now they're a

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great tool. And when you take
these people who ten years ago were completely

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apolitical, couldn't have told you who
the governor of their state was, couldn't

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have even named one US representative,
and now they think they're constitutional experts,

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and really all they are are people
that can't even give a complete sentence of

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trying to explain anything about politics,
but they think they've got it all figured

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out. And that's the people that
people like this are going far trying to

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feed them into this because they don't
need to know what Christian nationalism is.

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As you said, they need to
scroll down to the bottom of the user

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agreement, check the box, and
sign off, and that's what they're looking

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for. That's all they need.
They don't want people to understand what Christian

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nationalism really is, and whether they
care about it or not. Yes,

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they want their person and power,
whoever that is. They want to end

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this system because it's an inconvenience to
them. So with that in mind,

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I agree there are uncomfortable conversations that
need to be had and we need to

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have those. We need to continue
to have those because being silent helps no

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one but them. Kelly, Yeah, I did one point before we break

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this up. A lot of liberals
do have guns, they just don't talk

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about it. I could arn this
whole panel. So you know all the

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A C shows and podcasts forum at
tiny dot c C slash a C,

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00:20:03.720 --> 00:20:06.559
A E N podcast So check it
out