WEBVTT 1 00:00:09.279 --> 00:00:13.759 Hi, and welcome back to give us Mark. I'm Neve, I'm Megan, 2 00:00:14.679 --> 00:00:19.839 and you were listening to mar eisode. That was my little intro. 3 00:00:19.960 --> 00:00:24.280 I hope you all liked it. I thought it was beautiful. Thanks. 4 00:00:24.280 --> 00:00:29.359 I've been taking singing lessons. Wow, I can really tell Arianna Grande who 5 00:00:30.039 --> 00:00:33.679 I mean, It's more like Taylor Swift. But whatever, I mean, 6 00:00:34.399 --> 00:00:40.600 I'll go how is everybody? This week? Megan has a I'm told fantastic 7 00:00:40.799 --> 00:00:46.640 episode from us that won't make me cry, it's gonna make you cry. 8 00:00:47.359 --> 00:00:51.280 I guess we'll just jump right in because if it's gonna make me cry, 9 00:00:51.320 --> 00:00:57.200 it's probably gonna be long. I mean, the case itself is a straightforward 10 00:00:57.359 --> 00:01:03.799 story, and unfortunately, I think it's something that maybe we have seen before, 11 00:01:03.840 --> 00:01:07.200 not in this podcast, but in our personal lives. Oh. I 12 00:01:07.239 --> 00:01:14.879 think we've all kind of maybe seen this kind of pattern in relationships of people 13 00:01:14.959 --> 00:01:22.159 that we either know or have stumbled across. So I want to say that 14 00:01:22.200 --> 00:01:29.359 this is a torture episode in which the victim does die because of torture. 15 00:01:30.079 --> 00:01:33.840 So if you can't handle that, please just skip ahead. But that is 16 00:01:33.840 --> 00:01:38.000 the only warning I'll be giving for this whole episode. Because the whole thing 17 00:01:38.200 --> 00:01:45.000 is just complete. Is it like psychological or is it grisome? It's it's 18 00:01:45.040 --> 00:01:49.840 trus say a little bit of both. But yeah, okay, So if 19 00:01:49.920 --> 00:01:53.359 like I know, like a lot of people don't like to hear about the 20 00:01:53.439 --> 00:01:57.760 gruesom tales I have felt not tales. They're not tales, They're stories of 21 00:01:57.959 --> 00:02:00.319 real life people. But you know what I mean. So we're just going 22 00:02:00.400 --> 00:02:12.599 to get into it then, O friend, guys. On the sixteenth of 23 00:02:12.599 --> 00:02:17.439 April nineteen ninety six, James Patterson Smith walked into a Manchester police station and 24 00:02:17.520 --> 00:02:23.319 told the officers there that his girlfriend had just drowned in the bathtub. Police 25 00:02:23.319 --> 00:02:29.960 officers rushed to Smith's home to a very gruesome scene. So to go back 26 00:02:30.000 --> 00:02:35.719 to the beginning. Kelly Anne was born on the eighteenth of May nineteen seventy 27 00:02:35.719 --> 00:02:38.120 eight and lived with her parents in Motram, which is a small town just 28 00:02:38.159 --> 00:02:44.240 outside of Manchester. Her parents were Margaret and Tommy Bates, and Kelly Anne 29 00:02:44.280 --> 00:02:50.400 had two brothers, Andrew and Paul. As a little girl, Margaret says 30 00:02:50.479 --> 00:02:54.520 Kelly Anne was a tomboy and she loved kids. Quote. Kelly loved children 31 00:02:54.520 --> 00:02:59.280 and wanted to be a teacher. She was soft hearted and very maternal, 32 00:03:00.199 --> 00:03:02.319 which I don't know, I think that is so cute. You know when 33 00:03:02.360 --> 00:03:07.039 you see kids, they're kind of like it a little bit older, but 34 00:03:07.159 --> 00:03:13.520 they really love to kind of look after the younger ones. And yeah, 35 00:03:12.400 --> 00:03:19.000 I mean, ye want to be described h She loved hockey and would spend 36 00:03:19.000 --> 00:03:23.240 her weekend's babysitting and working at a market stall. Apparently everyone who knew her 37 00:03:23.280 --> 00:03:29.039 said that she had a quote old soul, which I think, like we 38 00:03:29.120 --> 00:03:34.199 all know what that means, like somebody that's just really gentle and beautiful, 39 00:03:34.240 --> 00:03:38.240 and she's just like a genuine person who's just like caring of other people, 40 00:03:38.400 --> 00:03:46.319 and like she's sensible exactly, she is sensible. And that's what everybody would 41 00:03:46.360 --> 00:03:49.039 kind of say about her, is that she had her wits about her a 42 00:03:49.080 --> 00:03:54.840 bit and she was a very confident young woman. Kelly Anne was incredibly close 43 00:03:54.919 --> 00:04:00.199 with her family, especially her parents. They had a lot of trust between 44 00:04:00.280 --> 00:04:04.199 them. Like I said, Kelly Anne often babysat for neighbors and it was 45 00:04:04.280 --> 00:04:09.319 during one of these evenings baby sitting in nineteen ninety three that she met a 46 00:04:09.360 --> 00:04:15.199 man named James Patterson Smith. At the time that they met. Kelly Anne 47 00:04:15.240 --> 00:04:21.879 was only fourteen and James was a ripe old forty five year old man. 48 00:04:23.639 --> 00:04:27.639 I'm sorry what I thought you were going to say, like twenty or something. 49 00:04:28.800 --> 00:04:31.439 No, no, absolute, this man was Oh my god, he's 50 00:04:31.480 --> 00:04:36.240 like Paul Breach. Don't you bring him into this podcast? Do not. 51 00:04:36.560 --> 00:04:41.160 I do not want to hear that man's name. Absolutely not, Green, 52 00:04:41.319 --> 00:04:46.399 green Grass, blue blue, absolutely not. You have to know, you 53 00:04:46.439 --> 00:04:54.879 have to bring your fucking sleeve halfway down your hand. You think, oh, 54 00:04:54.920 --> 00:05:01.519 the ech the absolute ich Yeah, sorry it Why is he so old? 55 00:05:02.680 --> 00:05:13.879 Not not all breached? Well the same good said when he's texted sixteen 56 00:05:13.959 --> 00:05:17.240 year olds. But um, that's not my business. I mean it should 57 00:05:17.240 --> 00:05:25.040 be somebody's business. It's like fucking the population of TikTok's business. Yeah, 58 00:05:25.439 --> 00:05:31.240 TikTok will have him arrested. They will win this battle. He uses the 59 00:05:31.360 --> 00:05:36.800 police as his own personal bodyguards. There he I'm sorry. The funniest is 60 00:05:36.920 --> 00:05:44.279 that he called the guards all the police. If a bunch of teenagers were 61 00:05:44.360 --> 00:05:51.639 heckling him, We're saying, hot chucky walkie, the police to come and 62 00:05:51.759 --> 00:06:03.560 get them. Why didn't he Why didn't he just get a taxi home so 63 00:06:03.600 --> 00:06:08.839 funny. But yeah, this guy James, he was forty five. That's 64 00:06:09.040 --> 00:06:16.480 nasty. Fourteen he said, fourteen mm, that is foul. In what 65 00:06:17.240 --> 00:06:21.720 dimension does a forty five year old have something in common with the fourteen year 66 00:06:21.720 --> 00:06:27.040 old? What age he was like twenty one when she was born or some 67 00:06:27.120 --> 00:06:34.519 shit, not even oldertyving me to do math and the math is not math 68 00:06:34.600 --> 00:06:41.319 in okay, he was like thirty one when she was born. He's forty. 69 00:06:41.639 --> 00:06:46.720 I feel ill. That is disgusting. First of all, why are 70 00:06:46.720 --> 00:06:50.560 you attracted to a fourteen year old? What possibly could a forty five year 71 00:06:50.600 --> 00:06:56.360 old man have in common with a fourteen year old girl? And like, 72 00:06:56.560 --> 00:07:00.040 from her perspective, when you're a fourteen year old girl and this older dude, 73 00:07:00.279 --> 00:07:03.839 can I ask the question, is he at least like somewhat good looking? 74 00:07:04.480 --> 00:07:08.639 Absolutely not. It looks like Jimmy Savile. Oh my god, that's 75 00:07:08.680 --> 00:07:13.480 even worse. So like from because I was going to say, from her 76 00:07:13.560 --> 00:07:16.079 perspective, she's a fourteen year old girl and this like attractive older man is 77 00:07:16.120 --> 00:07:21.639 like interested in her. So she's like thinks it's cool. Well, people 78 00:07:21.639 --> 00:07:28.759 were attracted to Jimmy Savile back in the day as well, though, Yeah, 79 00:07:29.120 --> 00:07:32.199 you know what, this is not helping things, because before this episode, 80 00:07:32.800 --> 00:07:38.480 I was watching To Catch a Predator and it was just so many gross 81 00:07:38.519 --> 00:07:45.079 old men looking for thirteen and fourteen year olds. I was like, Okay. 82 00:07:45.199 --> 00:07:48.800 When guy walked into the house and just pulled down his zip and Chris 83 00:07:48.800 --> 00:07:50.800 Hamson walks in, He's like, what are you doing with your zip? 84 00:07:50.839 --> 00:07:55.639 There? Are you doing with your pants there? He's like, oh, 85 00:07:55.680 --> 00:07:59.879 my zip just fell down. Oh it's just it's broken. My zip is 86 00:08:00.120 --> 00:08:03.120 broken. I don't know. I just decided to bring alcohol condom and loops 87 00:08:03.199 --> 00:08:11.399 just for emergency. I'm holding them for a friend. They're not mine, 88 00:08:11.639 --> 00:08:16.319 Chris, go Chris, it's my friend that's the pedophile, not me. 89 00:08:16.639 --> 00:08:20.600 My friend has asked me to come scope it out first to see if it 90 00:08:20.680 --> 00:08:24.920 was you. You know what, I bet you somebody has at least tried 91 00:08:26.000 --> 00:08:30.360 to use that excuse. They're wild and their excuses, Oh, their excuses 92 00:08:30.439 --> 00:08:37.519 are up there. So like forty five and fourteen is just completely and utterly 93 00:08:37.639 --> 00:08:41.159 disgusting. Yeah, and he knew it too. Anyway, we'll get to 94 00:08:41.200 --> 00:08:46.879 that later on in the story. But that night, she was apparently babysitting 95 00:08:46.000 --> 00:08:50.919 for like his friends, and he came over then later on and when he 96 00:08:50.960 --> 00:08:54.919 met her he was like, oh, I'll walk you home. So that 97 00:08:54.000 --> 00:08:58.720 night he did apparently walk her home and just from there they just apparently got 98 00:08:58.720 --> 00:09:03.559 on really well. How do you get on so well with a fourteen year 99 00:09:03.600 --> 00:09:07.360 old? Like, doesn't mean you to go fucking dater? Yes, sick. 100 00:09:07.399 --> 00:09:15.440 Oh well, it's probably easy to get on with the fourteen year old. 101 00:09:15.480 --> 00:09:20.080 And with the type of person that James is, he's just a predator. 102 00:09:20.919 --> 00:09:22.720 No. When I say like, how do you get on? I 103 00:09:22.759 --> 00:09:24.320 mean, how do you get on so well that you're like, oh, 104 00:09:24.320 --> 00:09:28.639 she could make a great girlfriend. But this is the thing, I don't 105 00:09:28.639 --> 00:09:33.919 think he's ever thinking, I don't know what way these people's work. He's 106 00:09:33.000 --> 00:09:37.759 just yeah, I just I don't think I'll ever understand it. Like, 107 00:09:37.799 --> 00:09:43.159 how can you look at someone so young, when you're that age and think 108 00:09:43.200 --> 00:09:46.320 to yourself, I'd bone her. Yeah you know what I mean, that's 109 00:09:46.320 --> 00:09:52.559 just what wash. Yeah, you've got something very very wrong with you. 110 00:09:52.720 --> 00:09:58.639 Seriously. Yeah. And I even, like in my notes I said, 111 00:09:58.720 --> 00:10:03.799 like a young girl or teenager, when somebody, when someone has really showing 112 00:10:03.840 --> 00:10:07.559 you a lot of attention, you do feel really important and cool and loved 113 00:10:07.679 --> 00:10:11.960 and special. Yeah, like she's fourteen, Like she thinks to herself, 114 00:10:13.240 --> 00:10:18.720 Oh, wow, like this cool, cooler, older guy like fancies me. 115 00:10:18.240 --> 00:10:22.200 Like she's like, wow, that's so cool, Like yeah, I 116 00:10:22.200 --> 00:10:26.320 can tell my friends yeah, And she's like wow, Like that would like 117 00:10:26.399 --> 00:10:30.519 almost boost her confidence and be like, wow, I must be like so 118 00:10:30.840 --> 00:10:37.600 mature, mature and good looking that he fancies me one hundred and ten percent, 119 00:10:37.240 --> 00:10:39.399 Like you don't think, oh this is weird, well, like why 120 00:10:39.559 --> 00:10:43.879 is he interested in me? You're like, why wouldn't he be like exact 121 00:10:43.240 --> 00:10:50.720 shit cool, you know, exactly, And so Smith began the grooming process, 122 00:10:52.399 --> 00:10:58.159 which is exactly what this is, oh one person percent. They're kind 123 00:10:58.159 --> 00:11:01.000 of dating in the background for a while, nobody really knows, and one 124 00:11:01.080 --> 00:11:07.320 day Kerry just comes home with this huge bruise on her eye, which apparently 125 00:11:07.399 --> 00:11:09.799 kind of almost took up her whole face, like one side of her face. 126 00:11:11.200 --> 00:11:16.519 Jesus. Obviously, Margaret her mother asked about it, and she just 127 00:11:16.559 --> 00:11:20.360 explained it away by saying that a group of girls just jumped her on the 128 00:11:20.399 --> 00:11:24.720 way home from school. What the hell even at that? Would me be 129 00:11:24.879 --> 00:11:30.080 like? That's like what? Like who who? Are these girls? Why 130 00:11:30.120 --> 00:11:33.399 did they jump you? What's going on? Yeah, Like you'd have so 131 00:11:33.440 --> 00:11:37.480 many questions being like did you say anything to them to rile them up? 132 00:11:37.519 --> 00:11:41.200 Like did they steal anything from you? Do you know them? Are they 133 00:11:41.240 --> 00:11:46.039 from your school? Is this an ongoing problem? Well, nobody's going to 134 00:11:46.120 --> 00:11:48.879 think that this has to do with a grown man. No, of course, 135 00:11:48.960 --> 00:11:54.000 not like as a parent, like when Anna reaches that age and she 136 00:11:54.039 --> 00:11:56.559 comes home with like a black eye, Like I'm not going to assume that 137 00:11:56.600 --> 00:12:00.039 a grown ass man that she's secretly dating has done it to her. Of 138 00:12:00.039 --> 00:12:03.320 course not. Why would you, Like, no parent in their right mind 139 00:12:03.320 --> 00:12:09.000 would be at all okay, okay with no no. However, she does 140 00:12:09.120 --> 00:12:13.000 tell her parents that she does have a boyfriend by the name of Dave Smith. 141 00:12:15.399 --> 00:12:18.480 They're not too concerned. Kelly is an independent girl, so they just 142 00:12:18.679 --> 00:12:24.399 they're happy for her. They just innocently enough assume little boyfriend and girlfriend, 143 00:12:24.519 --> 00:12:31.240 you know, nice cute and like because she's so sensible and so grown up 144 00:12:31.279 --> 00:12:35.360 for her age and is a pretty decent Like she's a decent young girl, 145 00:12:35.360 --> 00:12:39.600 Like she doesn't get herself into trouble, like you would just be like, 146 00:12:39.799 --> 00:12:41.759 yeah, that's Okay, like it's probably just a boy from school and she 147 00:12:41.799 --> 00:12:46.039 probably just doesn't want us to meet them yet, Like it's fine, yeah, 148 00:12:46.080 --> 00:12:50.799 exactly, Like you wouldn't question her because she's so sensible. Yeah, 149 00:12:50.840 --> 00:12:54.600 you're like, Okay, she's got this down. She's young. They're probably 150 00:12:54.679 --> 00:12:58.320 not thinking about like sex or anything at this stage. Let's just let them 151 00:12:58.320 --> 00:13:03.879 have they're innocent kind of thing. Yeah. At around this time, Kelly 152 00:13:03.879 --> 00:13:09.159 Anne started sneaking it out of the house and staying at all night. Of 153 00:13:09.159 --> 00:13:16.440 course, this concerning her parents, as she's obviously only fourteen. She wasn't 154 00:13:16.480 --> 00:13:20.559 like staying out with her friends or anything like that like me and you might 155 00:13:20.600 --> 00:13:26.480 have done back in the day. She was going straight to Smith's after school 156 00:13:26.480 --> 00:13:31.399 on a Friday and staying there all weekend and coming home on Sunday evening to 157 00:13:31.399 --> 00:13:37.639 get ready for school the next day. Yeah, like that's not now at 158 00:13:37.639 --> 00:13:41.200 this point, that's not great. This is where things kind of start to 159 00:13:41.200 --> 00:13:48.799 get a little more fucked up. At this point, James aka Dave would 160 00:13:48.840 --> 00:13:54.519 actually ring the parents home and speak to them about Kelly Anne, saying that 161 00:13:54.600 --> 00:13:58.000 he was also worried about her staying at all night, Like he knew how 162 00:13:58.039 --> 00:14:03.679 long it would take for her to get the bus from his place to hers, 163 00:14:03.720 --> 00:14:05.879 how long it would take her to walk from the bus stop home, 164 00:14:07.919 --> 00:14:11.919 and he would ring within like a couple of minutes it took to get her 165 00:14:11.919 --> 00:14:16.320 home. So he had counted this all out, like he knew where she 166 00:14:16.399 --> 00:14:20.759 was supposed to be at all times. And from what I can understand, 167 00:14:20.799 --> 00:14:24.120 I think the parents thought this is oh, this is really sweet, and 168 00:14:24.159 --> 00:14:28.159 they're obviously at this stage still thinking that he's just like someone from her class, 169 00:14:28.320 --> 00:14:31.480 not thinking that it's an older man. I mean, I struggle with 170 00:14:31.559 --> 00:14:35.279 this a little bit, unless my timeline is wrong, because I am open 171 00:14:35.360 --> 00:14:41.159 to that, because there isn't like the timeline jumps around. There isn't a 172 00:14:41.200 --> 00:14:45.080 direct wherever you go. I mean, they could know that it's not someone 173 00:14:45.120 --> 00:14:48.840 from her class, but they could be assuming that he's not forty five. 174 00:14:48.000 --> 00:14:52.200 They could be assuming that he's like nineteen. I'm so sorry, though, 175 00:14:52.399 --> 00:14:58.080 somebody who is forty five does sound different on the phone to nineteen or old. 176 00:14:58.159 --> 00:15:01.639 Yeah, just thought, oh, like he's super mature or whatever. 177 00:15:03.799 --> 00:15:07.919 I don't know, and I'm not here in any way shape or for him 178 00:15:07.279 --> 00:15:11.559 to blame anybody or anything like that no, no, no, no, 179 00:15:11.639 --> 00:15:18.039 yeah, except for him. At this point. Margaret and Tommy hadn't even 180 00:15:18.120 --> 00:15:22.000 met Dave. One day when Kelly Anne was sixteen and an adult, and 181 00:15:22.080 --> 00:15:26.080 I say that I think at the time it was like you're considered an adult 182 00:15:26.120 --> 00:15:31.279 in legal terms if in England. At the time, her parents came home 183 00:15:31.399 --> 00:15:37.440 from being out and she'd actually brought him over to the house. Margaret said 184 00:15:37.480 --> 00:15:45.360 he from the beginning was overconfident and quote smarmie and when you hear somebody say 185 00:15:45.399 --> 00:15:48.080 the words smarmie, you're like, yeah, he's like he's like a worm. 186 00:15:50.200 --> 00:15:54.120 To me, it's Smermie is like, he's a cocky little shit who's 187 00:15:54.159 --> 00:16:00.159 a smart, aunt cheeky, not an acute way in a like watch your 188 00:16:00.159 --> 00:16:03.960 fucking self. The vibe that he's like, you know when you go to 189 00:16:04.000 --> 00:16:08.039 the pub and you meet the old guy that's always there and he knows too 190 00:16:08.120 --> 00:16:12.320 much. He's like, oh, did you know that this business or whatever 191 00:16:12.440 --> 00:16:17.519 you say you're going to be completely wrong about and he's going to explain exactly 192 00:16:17.559 --> 00:16:22.519 how you're wrong about it. Yeah, that's a vibe I gett And he 193 00:16:22.639 --> 00:16:26.120 was coming down the stairs when Margaret first saw him, and he said, 194 00:16:26.200 --> 00:16:32.759 quote, nice to meet you. Finally, excuse me, and first of 195 00:16:32.799 --> 00:16:36.879 all, what are you doing upstairs? Why are you upstairs in my home? 196 00:16:37.000 --> 00:16:41.080 Bick freak, get out, get out of my house. Don't say 197 00:16:41.120 --> 00:16:44.720 finally to me. You're the one that's been hiding this whole time. You 198 00:16:45.039 --> 00:16:48.120 would be as a parent, first of all, has scared would you be? 199 00:16:48.360 --> 00:16:52.200 How scared would you be to see a forty seven year old man walking 200 00:16:52.240 --> 00:16:57.440 down your stairs? I'd say her heart just dropped. You'd be like, 201 00:16:57.600 --> 00:17:00.879 what the fuck? Who are you? Why are you in my house? 202 00:17:00.559 --> 00:17:03.519 Well, Margaret says all she could think about. That's how she wanted to 203 00:17:03.720 --> 00:17:07.920 immediately get rid of him. She's like, she's like, this is clearly 204 00:17:07.960 --> 00:17:11.759 not a young boy or even a young man. Like she's like, this 205 00:17:11.880 --> 00:17:15.640 is out of my remmate, this is not what I thought? Whatsoever? 206 00:17:15.720 --> 00:17:19.160 Yeah? Yeah, like does it? At first, she believed to be 207 00:17:19.480 --> 00:17:25.720 like either someone from her class or someone slightly older, But she obviously was 208 00:17:25.799 --> 00:17:32.440 thinking like nineteen twenty, not someone who is old enough to be her literal 209 00:17:32.559 --> 00:17:37.599 father, literally around when the fucking wheel was invented, Like with your fourteen 210 00:17:37.680 --> 00:17:42.240 year old actually sixteen at this stage year old daughter at this stage. Yeah. 211 00:17:42.319 --> 00:17:47.839 Yeah. And one thing about him is he looks his age like he 212 00:17:48.000 --> 00:17:52.920 looks not to say god, but you know, he looks old, like 213 00:17:52.079 --> 00:17:56.000 he's weathered. He looks yeah, like he doesn't look like a young forty 214 00:17:56.000 --> 00:18:00.519 five or forty seven. He looks Yeah. I would say he actually looks 215 00:18:00.559 --> 00:18:03.480 older in my opinion. Then that when you see a picture of him, 216 00:18:03.519 --> 00:18:07.599 and I'll show you one, it gives you old pub guy in the corner. 217 00:18:08.440 --> 00:18:14.240 Yeah. Yes. Margaret will go on to say how she remembers going 218 00:18:14.279 --> 00:18:18.079 into the kitchen seeing a bread knife and all she wanted to do was stobbed 219 00:18:18.119 --> 00:18:23.240 this man and kill him and get him away from her daughter. Mother inks 220 00:18:23.400 --> 00:18:27.559 thinked, like, of course you'd be so concerned as to why this older 221 00:18:27.559 --> 00:18:33.440 man wants what he want with my child. Quote the first time I met 222 00:18:33.519 --> 00:18:37.440 him, he swaggered in and it made the hairs stand up on the back 223 00:18:37.480 --> 00:18:41.319 of my neck. He was much older than I expected. I visitly recalled 224 00:18:41.359 --> 00:18:45.000 seeing our bread knife in the kitchen and wanting to pick it up and stab 225 00:18:45.079 --> 00:18:49.160 him in the back. It was a bizarre thought. I would never normally 226 00:18:49.160 --> 00:18:53.000 think of anything so violent, And now I wonder whether it was some sort 227 00:18:53.039 --> 00:18:59.400 of sixth sense. Looking back, it's my greatest regret that I didn't kill 228 00:18:59.480 --> 00:19:03.960 him there and then it would have saved my daughter's life. No, that's 229 00:19:03.960 --> 00:19:07.799 so sad, you know, Margaret, you're a great mother. Don't blame 230 00:19:07.839 --> 00:19:11.119 yourself. So just here, we're just going to take a quick ad break. 231 00:19:17.680 --> 00:19:22.319 We are back from the ad. At this time, Kelly Anne had 232 00:19:22.440 --> 00:19:26.240 told her family that Smith was, in fact thirty two, which is all 233 00:19:26.359 --> 00:19:30.680 ready an astounding age difference. That's trying to make himself half her age, 234 00:19:32.400 --> 00:19:37.680 like her half his age. But the truth was that he is well over 235 00:19:37.759 --> 00:19:41.279 half right, well over. The truth was like, exactly what like you 236 00:19:41.319 --> 00:19:45.279 said, he was actually about forty seven or forty eight, making him a 237 00:19:45.359 --> 00:19:51.079 year older than Kelly Anne's own father. Margaret and Tommy at this stage, 238 00:19:51.119 --> 00:19:53.400 they didn't really know what to do. They thought if they pushed her, 239 00:19:53.680 --> 00:19:59.000 it would just send her further into his arms. Yeah, I get that. 240 00:19:59.160 --> 00:20:03.359 After Kelly Anne him home multiple times with bruises and other injuries like white 241 00:20:03.359 --> 00:20:08.079 marks, Margaret tried to speak to her about this man. Obviously She's like, 242 00:20:08.240 --> 00:20:14.000 no, he's good to me. I love him. Her appearance also 243 00:20:14.079 --> 00:20:17.960 began to change. She seemed not to be showering, her hair and clothes 244 00:20:17.960 --> 00:20:21.519 would be dirty, and even her posture changed. It was at this point 245 00:20:21.519 --> 00:20:26.920 she kind of started to bring her shoulders in on herself. You could see 246 00:20:26.000 --> 00:20:33.640 like her world just getting smaller and tighter and more possessed by him. One 247 00:20:33.160 --> 00:20:37.759 and ten percent. The grit that this man had on a teenager is absolutely 248 00:20:37.880 --> 00:20:42.119 terrifying. And again, as a parent, how are you supposed to navigate 249 00:20:42.160 --> 00:20:47.079 this situation? What are you supposed to do? You don't want to tell 250 00:20:47.119 --> 00:20:49.400 her that she can't see him, because that's just not going to work and 251 00:20:49.480 --> 00:20:53.119 she's just going to want him more. But then you don't want to just 252 00:20:53.440 --> 00:21:00.200 let her see him because he's this way older guy that you see clear as 253 00:21:00.279 --> 00:21:06.559 day is not good news and is not good for her, is abusing her. 254 00:21:07.440 --> 00:21:11.279 So it's like, where's the fine line, Like where is the correct 255 00:21:11.400 --> 00:21:17.960 thing to do or say? And I think everybody listening, even ourselves, 256 00:21:17.960 --> 00:21:22.640 that we can sit here retrospectively, looking back on the situation and be like, 257 00:21:22.960 --> 00:21:25.000 well I would do this, and I would do that, But you 258 00:21:25.039 --> 00:21:30.519 don't know until you're in that high pressure intent situation. No, And for 259 00:21:30.599 --> 00:21:33.599 people that are listening to this saying, they should have just locked her in 260 00:21:33.640 --> 00:21:38.640 her room and blah blah blah blah. That's not a solution either, because 261 00:21:38.640 --> 00:21:42.960 that's also not good for her mental health and for her well being, Like 262 00:21:44.279 --> 00:21:49.119 you have to do it in a way that gets across to her. Her 263 00:21:49.200 --> 00:21:55.880 home house with her parents is a safe space. And if she doesn't want 264 00:21:55.880 --> 00:21:59.079 this man in her life, she does not have to have this. How 265 00:21:59.119 --> 00:22:03.079 do you tell it's sixteen year old or seventeen year old girl, If you 266 00:22:03.119 --> 00:22:06.200 don't want this man in your life, you don't have to have him in 267 00:22:06.240 --> 00:22:10.440 your life. This is a thing at that age, Like it's so hard 268 00:22:10.519 --> 00:22:14.400 to break up with people. It's hard to even break off friendships, you 269 00:22:14.480 --> 00:22:18.440 know, or things like that Harry is supposed to with somebody, especially when 270 00:22:18.440 --> 00:22:25.319 they're basically your dad. I strongly believe that it is not until like twenty 271 00:22:25.319 --> 00:22:30.400 five are over that you start to be like, no, you're a toxic 272 00:22:30.440 --> 00:22:33.000 person. I don't want you in my life. Up until that point, 273 00:22:33.240 --> 00:22:38.559 you're just like, oh no, but they're my friend. Oh yeah, 274 00:22:38.680 --> 00:22:41.359 I can definitely agree, Like you're just like, oh no, but they're 275 00:22:41.359 --> 00:22:45.200 my friend. So like you stick up for it, and it's and then 276 00:22:45.200 --> 00:22:48.200 it's the same, it's like, oh no, but that's my boyfriend, 277 00:22:48.319 --> 00:22:52.079 Like they love me. No, I don't know. You just learn to 278 00:22:52.079 --> 00:22:56.720 stand up for yourself really, yeah, But I do think it's not until 279 00:22:56.720 --> 00:23:03.200 like your later twenties that you kind of find the confidence to actually be like, 280 00:23:03.400 --> 00:23:06.359 no, you're actually not a nice person and I don't want you in 281 00:23:06.400 --> 00:23:08.000 my life. And then you figure out your own way, and it's I 282 00:23:08.039 --> 00:23:11.920 think that's when you really start to see I think it's because like you're getting 283 00:23:11.920 --> 00:23:21.279 older and you're starting these mature ventures like moving out of home, and like 284 00:23:21.400 --> 00:23:25.480 you start kind of doing all of that stuff later into your twenties, and 285 00:23:25.559 --> 00:23:30.119 so then I think that's when you're like, actually, don't want certain people 286 00:23:30.119 --> 00:23:33.039 in my life anymore. Yeah, it's that. And then it's the life 287 00:23:33.039 --> 00:23:38.720 experience and knowing how other people have affected you and how it affected your overall 288 00:23:38.720 --> 00:23:41.119 well being, and you just get to a point where you're just like, 289 00:23:41.200 --> 00:23:45.920 why am I allowing this to happen to my sie? Am I allowing this? 290 00:23:45.400 --> 00:23:49.680 For When you're like sixteen seventeen, it's a real case of oh, 291 00:23:49.720 --> 00:23:53.759 no, but they love me. They wouldn't be doing this if they didn't 292 00:23:53.799 --> 00:23:59.640 love me, And so it's like, how do you get her away from 293 00:23:59.680 --> 00:24:02.920 that? At this point of the situation, I don't even think this is 294 00:24:03.480 --> 00:24:07.440 her age is massively relevant. Well, I do think it is relevant, 295 00:24:07.680 --> 00:24:12.000 but I think that this guy, by this stage, he just has such 296 00:24:12.000 --> 00:24:15.920 a hold on her that it's not even about her age anymore. It's just 297 00:24:15.039 --> 00:24:22.680 that this guy has mentally psychologically wore her that she's just like, oh no, 298 00:24:22.759 --> 00:24:26.160 but I can't believe him. Yeah, And abusers have that way of 299 00:24:26.200 --> 00:24:30.880 going about it. And I watched I think she's a psychologist on YouTube talk 300 00:24:30.920 --> 00:24:34.759 about this case and she'd covered this case on Crime in Kenton or Crime Plus 301 00:24:34.920 --> 00:24:40.559 or something, Crime and Investigation, that's what it was. But she secondation 302 00:24:40.640 --> 00:24:44.640 on the episode that she'd covered Kelly Ann on that she didn't feel that she 303 00:24:44.720 --> 00:24:48.279 got to do the case justice and it's not how she would have liked to 304 00:24:48.319 --> 00:24:53.440 have talked about the case. And she was saying, you know how much 305 00:24:53.440 --> 00:24:59.200 an abuser, no matter what the age is, they know how to pick 306 00:25:00.079 --> 00:25:04.400 people that they feel they can manipulate from the get go. They are actively 307 00:25:04.480 --> 00:25:08.440 looking for victims and maybe they're not in their brain thinking their word victim or 308 00:25:08.480 --> 00:25:12.000 anything I'm looking for. Yeah, but it's like in the back of their 309 00:25:12.000 --> 00:25:17.839 head, somewhere deep down, they're like they're looking. She would be easy 310 00:25:17.960 --> 00:25:22.039 to get her to do X, Y and zai, easier to control. 311 00:25:22.119 --> 00:25:23.440 She's not going to go at you know, she's not going to fight me 312 00:25:23.480 --> 00:25:32.480 on this or whatever. Yeah, And in this situation, as as mature 313 00:25:32.519 --> 00:25:36.039 as Kelly Anne was, I think her age, that's when it plays a 314 00:25:36.079 --> 00:25:41.160 factor in the actual choosing of her. But then as an abuser manipulating her. 315 00:25:41.839 --> 00:25:45.799 Yeah, once I navigate the situation with their parents and just wait till 316 00:25:45.799 --> 00:25:49.640 she's sixteen, then we're good. What can they do nothing? Yeah, 317 00:25:49.759 --> 00:25:52.559 And then it's a case of wait until she's eighteen, then I can get 318 00:25:52.559 --> 00:25:57.480 her into the highest Well, this is the thing. Margaret did. Called 319 00:25:57.559 --> 00:26:00.640 police, but they told her there was nothing that they could do without a 320 00:26:00.680 --> 00:26:07.960 statement from Kelly Anne. After speaking with them and domestic abuse centers, Margaret 321 00:26:07.039 --> 00:26:11.359 was advised to make a doctor's appointment in Kelly Anne's name, but to actually 322 00:26:11.400 --> 00:26:15.880 go herself and inform the doctor what her suspicions were, so that if Kelly 323 00:26:15.880 --> 00:26:19.079 Ann ever did show up with any complaints that it would be on file. 324 00:26:21.000 --> 00:26:26.039 At this point, though I don't know if a doctor would actually do that 325 00:26:26.200 --> 00:26:30.119 for you, No, I don't think so. They're very strict like nowadays, 326 00:26:30.200 --> 00:26:33.480 Like it's to the point now that like if I make a doctor's appointment, 327 00:26:33.599 --> 00:26:37.640 I can't even bring Anna in with me, to be like, oh, 328 00:26:37.839 --> 00:26:41.599 whilst time here, Anna fel the other day and yeah, you know, 329 00:26:41.759 --> 00:26:45.279 like I have to make a separate appointment for her. Yeah. But 330 00:26:45.960 --> 00:26:52.000 I feel like if they would take you, it's a good idea because at 331 00:26:52.079 --> 00:26:56.240 least the doctor would know what to look out for. Although, to be 332 00:26:56.319 --> 00:27:02.000 honest, I think doctors are now wild trained in that. Like back then, 333 00:27:02.119 --> 00:27:07.000 back in the nineties and early two thousands, it wasn't high priority. 334 00:27:07.200 --> 00:27:11.200 I don't mean that in a bad way. I mean isn't like when I 335 00:27:11.240 --> 00:27:18.000 was pregnant with Anna and we first went to like our hospital appointments and they 336 00:27:18.279 --> 00:27:22.480 brought me up to the MLU, which is like midwives Lead Unit, which 337 00:27:22.519 --> 00:27:25.279 is like where you have to do everything naturally, but you get like your 338 00:27:25.319 --> 00:27:30.319 own private suite and it's much better, and they're asking you questions like about 339 00:27:30.359 --> 00:27:33.759 family history and stuff like that, all these kind of questions just so they 340 00:27:33.759 --> 00:27:37.839 know to kind of like what to look out for. And then when cattle 341 00:27:37.960 --> 00:27:41.400 left the room, they were like, now is your home safe? Like 342 00:27:41.480 --> 00:27:45.880 are you safe? Oh okay? Yeah, Like they are like, is 343 00:27:45.920 --> 00:27:51.759 everything okay at home? Are you safe? Like it's like up there with 344 00:27:51.799 --> 00:27:56.279 their questions, Oh okay, that's really interesting where I don't think they would 345 00:27:56.319 --> 00:28:02.039 have done that back then. Yeah. I think I feel now it's very 346 00:28:02.119 --> 00:28:07.440 much at the forefront, like are you safe from home? Yeah. In 347 00:28:07.519 --> 00:28:12.079 November of nineteen ninety five, Kelly Anne moved in with Smith at his residence 348 00:28:12.160 --> 00:28:18.240 on Furnival Road in Gorton, Manchester. Just about her parents not being overjoyed, 349 00:28:19.920 --> 00:28:23.839 Kelly Anne promised to keep in touch and visit often. After all, 350 00:28:23.839 --> 00:28:26.759 like why wouldn't she you know, there's no reason why she wouldn't keep in 351 00:28:26.839 --> 00:28:30.680 touch. Kelly Ann would speak to her parents most weeks on the phone, 352 00:28:30.839 --> 00:28:33.759 but as time went on, the phone calls would become less and less, 353 00:28:34.279 --> 00:28:37.319 and when they did get to hear from her, it was clear that Smith 354 00:28:37.440 --> 00:28:44.000 was there, as Kelly Anne would seem to get somewhat stiff. By this 355 00:28:44.079 --> 00:28:47.720 point, Kelly Anne had said that she had gotten a new job and they 356 00:28:47.759 --> 00:28:52.480 were offering her plenty of overtime, and so that means that she's going to 357 00:28:52.519 --> 00:28:56.200 be your end to visit less often. In reality, she had joined Smith 358 00:28:56.319 --> 00:29:02.880 in unemployment, something I'm sure he forced her to do. The parents would 359 00:29:02.880 --> 00:29:07.599 try to visit often, but Smith was always there, and at some point 360 00:29:07.680 --> 00:29:11.279 they started to get worried that their presence was actually going to make things worse 361 00:29:11.359 --> 00:29:15.000 for Kelly Anne. Yeah, I get that because, like as an abuser, 362 00:29:15.960 --> 00:29:18.960 but they're like, did you call them? Why the fuck are they 363 00:29:19.000 --> 00:29:22.519 here? Did you tell them like I did something to you that? And 364 00:29:22.559 --> 00:29:27.880 then you know, your parents are so annoying and then flying into a race, 365 00:29:29.240 --> 00:29:32.920 like because they're paranoid because they know what they're doing is wrong. So 366 00:29:32.960 --> 00:29:36.000 they're like paranoid that they're like, you know that they're going to get find 367 00:29:36.000 --> 00:29:38.680 out. And then on top of it, it's like, your father looked 368 00:29:38.720 --> 00:29:42.759 at me this way, that's your fault. Yeah. One time when her 369 00:29:42.799 --> 00:29:47.119 parents went to visit her, they want like I think it was probably the 370 00:29:47.200 --> 00:29:49.440 first time. They just wanted to see where she was living, like this 371 00:29:49.519 --> 00:29:55.880 is not their kind of area at all. As they sat drinking tea in 372 00:29:55.920 --> 00:30:00.759 the kitchen, Kelly Anne sat with her head down and Smith showed them a 373 00:30:00.799 --> 00:30:04.799 hole in the ground that some repair work had left behind the hole would actually 374 00:30:04.839 --> 00:30:12.160 be used for much darker purposes. Oh God. One day, after not 375 00:30:12.279 --> 00:30:15.359 hearing from Kelly Anne for a while, they decided to go and visit. 376 00:30:17.480 --> 00:30:19.400 They were getting ready to leave the house when their son walked in the door 377 00:30:19.519 --> 00:30:23.000 and excitedly told them that a friend of his had seen Kelly Anne and that 378 00:30:23.160 --> 00:30:29.039 she seemed well unhappy. They were all right with this, so they settled 379 00:30:29.079 --> 00:30:33.680 back into the home. However, the friend had actually seen Kelly Anne in 380 00:30:33.680 --> 00:30:37.039 December, and at this point we're now into the next year of nineteen ninety 381 00:30:37.119 --> 00:30:42.480 six, so it had been a couple of months. Her brother at one 382 00:30:42.559 --> 00:30:47.160 point even showed up to Smith's to see Kelly Anne, only to be told 383 00:30:47.359 --> 00:30:51.359 she wasn't there, which she obviously was because where else would she be. 384 00:30:52.680 --> 00:30:56.720 A concerned neighbor even knocked around to see Kellyanne to make sure that she was 385 00:30:56.759 --> 00:31:00.599 okay, but they were only able to see her from the droom window. 386 00:31:02.200 --> 00:31:04.519 On the tenth of March, Margaret called Kelly Anne to let her know that 387 00:31:04.559 --> 00:31:10.359 she'd missed a dental appointment. That was the last contact they'd have with their 388 00:31:10.440 --> 00:31:14.519 daughter. It was just after Mother's Day when Margaret got a Mother's Day card 389 00:31:14.599 --> 00:31:18.480 from Kelly in Smith's handwriting, and then more came for Tommy's birthday and then 390 00:31:18.519 --> 00:31:22.559 their anniversary, and that's when she knew that things had gotten extremely bad. 391 00:31:25.160 --> 00:31:29.839 You just know, when the carrots are showing up in his handwriting, it's 392 00:31:29.839 --> 00:31:33.559 like, did she hurt her hand? Yeah? And at the same time, 393 00:31:33.599 --> 00:31:37.880 this is her family, She's close to her family. There's no calls, 394 00:31:37.920 --> 00:31:41.480 there's no visits. The cards that she said she was going to send, 395 00:31:41.519 --> 00:31:45.680 like, why are they in his handwriting? What's going on? Her 396 00:31:45.720 --> 00:31:49.440 parents are right to be concerned, just based on the apparent treatment of their 397 00:31:49.519 --> 00:31:55.000 daughter. What they didn't know was that James Patterson Smith had a history of 398 00:31:55.039 --> 00:32:00.559 abusing his partners. James had been married and divorced after ten years due to 399 00:32:00.640 --> 00:32:07.559 domestic violence. James then dated twenty year old Tina Watson from nineteen eighty to 400 00:32:07.640 --> 00:32:13.440 nineteen eighty two, apparently using her as a quote hunchback. He even hit 401 00:32:13.480 --> 00:32:16.200 her over the head with an ashtray and then tried to drown her while she 402 00:32:16.279 --> 00:32:21.480 was in the bath and I believe pregnant with his child. Oh my god. 403 00:32:21.839 --> 00:32:25.640 Thankfully she was able to escape after this relationship ends. He goes for 404 00:32:25.720 --> 00:32:30.480 fifteen year old Wendy mother's head and again she is subjected to a lot of 405 00:32:30.559 --> 00:32:36.559 violence, and he also tried to drown her in the kitchen sink. I 406 00:32:36.680 --> 00:32:40.359 believe by filling up the se and holding her head in it. You can 407 00:32:40.359 --> 00:32:45.759 see as well the ages are getting lower. Thing for water, Yeah, 408 00:32:46.000 --> 00:32:50.960 starts up. It's obviously like the first girlfriend was too old, she was 409 00:32:50.960 --> 00:32:54.319 too hard to control. The second girlfriend little easier to control, but still 410 00:32:54.319 --> 00:33:00.279 slightly too old, still a little bit harder to kind of convince. And 411 00:33:00.519 --> 00:33:06.759 well, they were very lucky that they managed to get away. Kelly Anne 412 00:33:07.000 --> 00:33:10.039 would not be so lucky. And we're just going to take a quick at 413 00:33:10.039 --> 00:33:20.359 break here. Over a period of approximately four weeks, Kelly Anne would be 414 00:33:20.400 --> 00:33:25.039 relentlessly tortured by an incredibly evil man. When the police turned up to Smith's 415 00:33:25.039 --> 00:33:30.039 home on the sixteenth of April nineteen ninety six, the scene was gruesome. 416 00:33:30.160 --> 00:33:35.880 Kelly Anne was found lifeless in a bedroom. It didn't take a forensic examiner 417 00:33:36.039 --> 00:33:40.440 to realize that this has been no accident, so he went to the police 418 00:33:40.440 --> 00:33:45.680 station and said she drowned in the bath, and then the police found her 419 00:33:45.720 --> 00:33:52.000 on the bed or in the bedroom. Yeah, I believe. So that's 420 00:33:52.079 --> 00:33:55.480 weird. Well, he's saying at the time, it was probably like oh, 421 00:33:55.519 --> 00:34:00.920 I tried to resuscitate her. Kelly Ann's blood was found in every single 422 00:34:01.000 --> 00:34:07.079 room of the house. Her autopsy showed if she frowned, why, like 423 00:34:07.119 --> 00:34:10.039 I said, this man does not have more than two brain cells to rub 424 00:34:10.079 --> 00:34:15.199 together. Her autopsy showed that she had over one hundred and fifty stab wounds 425 00:34:15.280 --> 00:34:22.119 alone, caused by multiple instruments, including forks. She was extremely malnourished and 426 00:34:22.199 --> 00:34:27.599 dehydrated, having lost her and twenty kilos. To keep her in place, 427 00:34:28.079 --> 00:34:32.639 Smith would tie Kelly Anne to radiators and other furniture by her hair. There 428 00:34:32.639 --> 00:34:37.719 were marks on her neck that indicated she had been strangled. Smith used cigarettes 429 00:34:37.760 --> 00:34:42.920 and a hot iron to brand her in different areas of her body, including 430 00:34:42.920 --> 00:34:46.920 her inner thigh. Oh scalding hot water had been poured on her, marking 431 00:34:46.960 --> 00:34:53.440 her books and legs, her whole face, her nose, mouth, eyebrows, 432 00:34:53.440 --> 00:35:00.239 ears, and her genitals had been mutilated. If guys ray at the 433 00:35:00.480 --> 00:35:07.360 sixteen year old girl, that's not even half of it. Smith had crushed 434 00:35:07.360 --> 00:35:14.480 her hands, feet, and kneecaps to make escape absolutely impossible. Her arm 435 00:35:14.559 --> 00:35:20.280 was fractured, and she had been partially scalped. These injuries alone are obviously 436 00:35:20.320 --> 00:35:23.800 horrific and one of, if not the worst case I've ever heard about. 437 00:35:24.320 --> 00:35:30.360 However, it does get worse, and so these aren't what killed her. 438 00:35:30.440 --> 00:35:36.039 Like she had to endure all of this. As part of the pathologist William 439 00:35:36.119 --> 00:35:39.880 Lawler quote not less than five days and not more than three weeks before her 440 00:35:39.920 --> 00:35:46.320 death, Kelly Anne's eyes had been gudged out. The autopsy showed that Kelly 441 00:35:46.400 --> 00:35:51.800 Ann had not only stab wounds on the inside of her mouth, but on 442 00:35:51.840 --> 00:35:58.000 the inside of the now empty eye sockets. He gauged at her eyes alive, 443 00:35:58.239 --> 00:36:01.719 she was alive, and she was alive or at least five days before 444 00:36:04.079 --> 00:36:12.159 I can't even imagine. And then he would wait until the socket would start 445 00:36:12.199 --> 00:36:15.559 to heal and he would stab it, and then he'd stab it again. 446 00:36:15.880 --> 00:36:23.920 That's sadistic, Like that is the rage that man put onto a sixteen year 447 00:36:23.960 --> 00:36:28.239 old girl. I think it may be one of the worst things that I've 448 00:36:28.239 --> 00:36:30.440 ever heard, to be honest with you, Yeah, that's up there, 449 00:36:31.119 --> 00:36:37.559 like has to be, because I've heard of serial killers do all of these 450 00:36:37.559 --> 00:36:42.519 things, but not to one person. He just used her like a doll, 451 00:36:42.639 --> 00:36:45.880 like like a punchbag, like like his previous girlfriend. Like it's almost 452 00:36:45.960 --> 00:36:51.320 like he was just trying to see, like can I guidge out her eyes? 453 00:36:51.400 --> 00:36:54.039 Or will that killer? Let's find out? Yeah, keep in mind 454 00:36:54.079 --> 00:37:00.239 that this man is somebody that he spent a couple of years grooming her, 455 00:37:00.400 --> 00:37:06.599 Like he started things off like why I love you? You know she loved 456 00:37:06.679 --> 00:37:08.719 him. She's supposed to feel safe with this man. He's so much older 457 00:37:08.719 --> 00:37:15.079 than her. Why would he do something like this to her? It's just 458 00:37:16.480 --> 00:37:21.280 I've often been questioned like what is wrong with people? Why do they? 459 00:37:21.760 --> 00:37:22.800 You know, like you're like why is wrong with them? Like? Why 460 00:37:22.840 --> 00:37:27.719 do they go kill? Why did they go do this? No, what 461 00:37:28.039 --> 00:37:36.079 is wrong with this man? There is something so seriously wrong with you that 462 00:37:36.239 --> 00:37:40.360 you think as a man of almost fifty years of age, and you think 463 00:37:40.440 --> 00:37:45.960 to yourself, that's sixteen year old girl. I'm going to break all of 464 00:37:45.039 --> 00:37:49.760 her hands and all of her feet so she can't escape me. I'm gonna 465 00:37:49.840 --> 00:37:52.760 tie her to the radiator with her hair. Do you know how hard you'd 466 00:37:52.760 --> 00:37:57.400 have to stab somebody, how much force you'd have to put behind stabbing somebody 467 00:37:57.400 --> 00:38:02.199 with a fork. I don't want to think about it. That's just realistically. 468 00:38:02.239 --> 00:38:07.960 If your steak is too tough, and this man managed to stab her 469 00:38:07.960 --> 00:38:15.079 with the fork, Yep, horrifying. Kelly Anne's official cause of death was 470 00:38:15.159 --> 00:38:19.559 drowning. He must have had her in the bath before he beat her with 471 00:38:19.639 --> 00:38:25.039 the shower head, causing her to drown in the bathwater. The pathologist said 472 00:38:25.159 --> 00:38:30.079 that he had completed over six hundred autopsies, but he had never seen a 473 00:38:30.119 --> 00:38:36.639 case as horrific as this. Yeah, Margaret knew what had happened the second 474 00:38:36.719 --> 00:38:40.360 police knocked on her door. She knew that man had killed her only daughter. 475 00:38:42.320 --> 00:38:45.639 Tommy had to go and identify his only daughters, His sixteen year old 476 00:38:45.880 --> 00:38:55.079 child's body that is mutilated, completely and utterly mutilated with scars. We doesn't 477 00:38:55.159 --> 00:39:02.119 have her eyes, of course. James Patterson Smith is arrested almost as quickly 478 00:39:02.159 --> 00:39:06.480 as he walked into that police station. Once they got to that house, 479 00:39:06.519 --> 00:39:10.239 they were like, yo, keep that guy. Did he think that they 480 00:39:10.280 --> 00:39:15.280 were going to like? How was he going to explain? I don't really 481 00:39:15.320 --> 00:39:20.199 know what his plan was. I think so. I think what happened is 482 00:39:20.280 --> 00:39:24.079 he walked into that police station he tried to say that she did die from 483 00:39:24.159 --> 00:39:28.039 drowning, and then he said something along the lines off, oh, I've 484 00:39:28.159 --> 00:39:30.920 I've really done it now, Like he said something like that to a police 485 00:39:30.920 --> 00:39:37.440 officer, and I think at that point then they knew. Do you think 486 00:39:37.480 --> 00:39:39.719 he was hoping to say, like, oh, my girlfriend drowned and then 487 00:39:39.800 --> 00:39:45.199 hoping that he'd be able to just leave the station. I don't know. 488 00:39:45.440 --> 00:39:50.559 I really don't know what his plan was, because, bro, she's missing 489 00:39:50.599 --> 00:39:53.480 her eyes. How are you going to explain that? When it came time 490 00:39:53.519 --> 00:39:59.599 for trial, he would not admit that he abused Gallian. He said that 491 00:39:59.679 --> 00:40:07.320 she god him into doing these things by impersonating his dead mother and daring him 492 00:40:07.360 --> 00:40:10.920 to do these things to her, as in by like go on do it, 493 00:40:12.159 --> 00:40:15.840 stab me. You won't do it. As many times as someone would 494 00:40:15.880 --> 00:40:19.559 be like go on, stab me, do it, I'd like what, 495 00:40:19.800 --> 00:40:22.559 No, you're weird, though, yeah, get out of my house. 496 00:40:22.880 --> 00:40:25.239 You wouldn't just be like, okay, all right, I guess I will 497 00:40:25.360 --> 00:40:29.119 guess. I have to know you asked for it, you know, no, 498 00:40:29.239 --> 00:40:37.480 I And then he said she had a quote bad habit of hurting herself 499 00:40:37.800 --> 00:40:42.440 to make it look worse on me, I wonder to who is this making 500 00:40:42.719 --> 00:40:45.679 you look worse? Because you didn't let her leave the house. Nobody was 501 00:40:45.719 --> 00:40:52.840 allowed to see her, So what the fuck is casually broke both hands and 502 00:40:52.880 --> 00:40:57.159 feet. She broke her own, her own knees. Of course, she 503 00:40:57.280 --> 00:41:05.360 broke her own What make it make sense? If you're gonna pretend like it 504 00:41:05.599 --> 00:41:12.719 wasn't you at least come up with better excuses. The prosecution told the jury, 505 00:41:12.840 --> 00:41:17.039 quote, the injuries were not the result of one sudden eruption of violence. 506 00:41:17.559 --> 00:41:22.039 They must have been caused over a long period and were so extensive and 507 00:41:22.159 --> 00:41:30.880 so terrible that the defendant must have deliberately and systematically tortured the girl. After 508 00:41:30.920 --> 00:41:36.679 only an hour of deliberations, James Patterson Smith was found guilty. The judge, 509 00:41:37.039 --> 00:41:40.920 Mister Justice Sachs, said, quote, you are a highly dangerous person. 510 00:41:42.559 --> 00:41:45.519 You are an abuser of women, and I intend, so far as 511 00:41:45.519 --> 00:41:50.599 it is in my power, that you will abuse no more. Justin Patterson 512 00:41:50.639 --> 00:41:57.039 Smith was given a life sentence. Due to the disturbing material and evidence the 513 00:41:57.119 --> 00:42:00.519 jury had to review, they were all offered pen sling, and every single 514 00:42:00.639 --> 00:42:07.360 jury member accepted it. He in recent years did apply for parole saying that 515 00:42:07.400 --> 00:42:13.159 he was now a changed man, but he is very quickly rejected good. 516 00:42:14.519 --> 00:42:19.840 A little bit more on the family, Margaret Bates actually did die of respiratory 517 00:42:19.920 --> 00:42:23.920 failure in December of twenty nineteen, aged sixty five, after two battles with 518 00:42:24.039 --> 00:42:28.760 breast cancer, leaving behind her husband, Tommy, and her two sons. 519 00:42:29.800 --> 00:42:35.280 Before her death, Margaret worked at a checkout at a supermarket, although their 520 00:42:35.320 --> 00:42:38.440 family home had already been torn down. She said she could see the site 521 00:42:38.480 --> 00:42:44.000 from where her checkout was through the window and would say that she could feel 522 00:42:44.079 --> 00:42:47.280 Kelly on with her at the checkout sometimes. You know, just that is 523 00:42:47.360 --> 00:42:52.599 like the cutest thing in the world. I know, it just breaks my 524 00:42:52.719 --> 00:43:00.480 heart. And people were saying that like Margaret was absolutely lovely. She was 525 00:43:00.679 --> 00:43:08.400 always polite, friendly, like willing to offer a hand, like this awful, 526 00:43:08.440 --> 00:43:14.280 awful man took her daughter away, and she still managed to stay like 527 00:43:14.559 --> 00:43:19.199 positive in life, and she didn't let it like consume her life to the 528 00:43:19.239 --> 00:43:22.760 point where like she was just that mean old lady, do you know what 529 00:43:22.760 --> 00:43:28.119 I mean. In nineteen ninety seven, Tommy and Margaret actually set up a 530 00:43:28.159 --> 00:43:34.599 group called Support after murder or Man's daughter in Ashton so it's a support group 531 00:43:34.679 --> 00:43:39.719 for families who have been affected, but this kind of crime. So that 532 00:43:39.920 --> 00:43:46.280 is the story. And I don't know what was going on with the water 533 00:43:46.360 --> 00:43:52.559 in Manchester at the time, because it was reminding me obviously a lot of 534 00:43:52.599 --> 00:43:55.119 the case of Suzanne Kapper. Right, yeah, I said, it's a 535 00:43:55.159 --> 00:44:00.360 torture case. Happened in the nineties, so I checked it out. The 536 00:44:00.400 --> 00:44:06.840 house that Susanne Kapper was tortured in was only a sixteen minute drive from where 537 00:44:06.960 --> 00:44:13.760 Kelly Anne had been kept. Oh my god, that's wild. Susanne Capper 538 00:44:13.880 --> 00:44:16.880 was murdered in nineteen ninety two, and then Kelly Anne was murdered in nineteen 539 00:44:16.960 --> 00:44:22.880 ninety six. What the fuck? Manchester only four only four years apart. 540 00:44:23.119 --> 00:44:28.519 That's like they're big murder cases. Well, at the time, Susanne Capper 541 00:44:28.599 --> 00:44:32.920 didn't really receive a lot of media attention. Oh no, yeah, Kelly 542 00:44:32.920 --> 00:44:37.400 Anne Bates, she did get obviously a bit more. Well at the time, 543 00:44:37.559 --> 00:44:42.760 No, Susan Kapper didn't really receive a lot of attention to think like 544 00:44:43.079 --> 00:44:47.880 that man was in her life for three years and how much damage he caused. 545 00:44:50.519 --> 00:44:53.719 Oh yeah, he looks like Jimmy Savile for sure time. There's the 546 00:44:53.920 --> 00:45:01.760 parents and then there's Kelly Anne. She was so sweet, she like, 547 00:45:01.960 --> 00:45:07.360 she was so cute looking. You know. The mother and father looked the 548 00:45:07.440 --> 00:45:09.760 type looked like the type of people that like would offer you cup of tea. 549 00:45:09.960 --> 00:45:14.599 Yeah, you know, they'd be like you all right, love, 550 00:45:14.760 --> 00:45:17.400 you need the cup of tea? Yeah, Like look at her here here 551 00:45:17.400 --> 00:45:25.840 a little fringe. Isn't that just me? Unadorable? She's like little dogs, 552 00:45:25.840 --> 00:45:30.599 little Dalmatians of under one Dalmatians on her top. Like, I don't 553 00:45:30.599 --> 00:45:35.480 know this case. I heard it once on a podcast like a couple of 554 00:45:35.559 --> 00:45:38.039 years ago, and I spent one of those that like you kind of in 555 00:45:38.079 --> 00:45:44.440 your head like yeah, yeah, like follows your end. And when you 556 00:45:44.599 --> 00:45:47.440 think of, say, the likes of um, you know, the Hello 557 00:45:47.519 --> 00:45:52.239 Kittie murder and stuff like that, like other torture murderers that are so talked 558 00:45:52.280 --> 00:45:58.000 about and often everybody talks about them, which of course they deserve to be 559 00:45:58.039 --> 00:46:01.599 talked about, and they deserve exposure talked about. But it's almost amazing to 560 00:46:01.719 --> 00:46:08.559 me that this is not a better known case because that is a horrific amount 561 00:46:08.840 --> 00:46:15.199 of rage an attack on a person. Yeah, it's it's the grooming as 562 00:46:15.199 --> 00:46:22.280 well, and the fact that it happened so easily. So that's the case 563 00:46:22.320 --> 00:46:27.920 of Kenny and Dates. That's all I have to say. And one thing 564 00:46:28.000 --> 00:46:32.400 I will ask is if you do look this up, be careful. In 565 00:46:32.519 --> 00:46:37.159 terms of the pictures. There aren't from what I could find, and I 566 00:46:37.199 --> 00:46:42.400 didn't go looking for them. I did not find any pictures of her at 567 00:46:42.400 --> 00:46:45.239 the crime scene, but that's not to say it's not to say they don't 568 00:46:45.239 --> 00:46:47.760 exist. And I have heard of people saying that they did see a couple. 569 00:46:49.320 --> 00:46:52.519 So I'm just asking you to be very very careful if you do decide 570 00:46:52.599 --> 00:46:57.519 to kind of do your own investigation into this case. Yeah. What it's 571 00:46:57.559 --> 00:47:00.280 just amazing about this is how the family person and her they were just able 572 00:47:00.320 --> 00:47:05.639 to keep going. They made a support group, they wanted to help others, 573 00:47:05.679 --> 00:47:09.559 they wanted to reach out, and it's just absolutely amazing what they were 574 00:47:09.559 --> 00:47:15.079 able to make out of this. Yeah, because when stuff like this, 575 00:47:15.320 --> 00:47:22.039 obviously so horrific and so traumatic, happens, it's very easy to just let 576 00:47:22.079 --> 00:47:25.519 that be your life then and then like you just live in a dark hole 577 00:47:25.960 --> 00:47:31.079 of like this happened, you know what I mean? Were these were the 578 00:47:31.119 --> 00:47:36.519 type of people that were just like, no, this isn't how she wanted 579 00:47:36.559 --> 00:47:38.159 to live her life, and like, this isn't what she'd want to be 580 00:47:38.199 --> 00:47:44.280 remembered for. She'd want to be remembered for like a support group. Yeah, 581 00:47:44.320 --> 00:47:47.199 and that's something that makes me really happy. And the fact that when 582 00:47:47.239 --> 00:47:53.239 you google this this case, it's not like his picture isn't it's all her 583 00:47:53.320 --> 00:47:59.599 and her parents. It's all her, yeah, looking happy, you know, 584 00:47:59.760 --> 00:48:02.239 like she there's a picture of her where she's feeding a baby and she 585 00:48:02.360 --> 00:48:07.639 just looks within her element. And it kills me to see that this fucking 586 00:48:08.519 --> 00:48:15.320 absolute animal of it. Animals wouldn't do that to each other. And literally, 587 00:48:15.360 --> 00:48:19.119 I was just going to say, animal is even too kind of a 588 00:48:19.159 --> 00:48:24.679 description from him. There would not do that too. This man was just 589 00:48:24.840 --> 00:48:29.840 fucking sadistic and cruel. I was just gonna say, the only good thing 590 00:48:29.920 --> 00:48:32.199 is that he's most more than likely going to die in prison. At this 591 00:48:32.280 --> 00:48:37.559 moment in time, he would be in his seventies. Well, you know 592 00:48:37.679 --> 00:48:43.119 what, I think prison is too good for him. I genuinely don't really 593 00:48:44.079 --> 00:48:49.679 degree with the death sentence. There are I think special cases where I'm like, 594 00:48:49.719 --> 00:48:53.119 you know what, and he's up there in that. There's a few 595 00:48:53.159 --> 00:48:58.440 things that I have to say about the death sentence and about how you know 596 00:48:59.039 --> 00:49:01.639 one innocent person is not worth all that kind of a thing, and there 597 00:49:01.679 --> 00:49:05.800 is an argument to be made. But at the same time, when it 598 00:49:05.800 --> 00:49:09.199 comes to people like this that have done something so vile, I don't want 599 00:49:09.239 --> 00:49:15.320 them to die. I want them to live in pain forever. You know 600 00:49:15.360 --> 00:49:22.280 what the thing is. I don't actually believe that Margaret ever fully knew what 601 00:49:22.760 --> 00:49:29.519 happened to Kelly Anne, because she said she was better off. She said 602 00:49:29.559 --> 00:49:32.719 at one point that she would pick up the phone and go to call the 603 00:49:32.800 --> 00:49:37.039 coroner so that she could hear the details, and then she would just going, 604 00:49:37.159 --> 00:49:42.000 no, no, it's not worth it. I'd say as well, 605 00:49:42.079 --> 00:49:45.880 though, like her husband was like, please don't for your sanity and mine 606 00:49:46.400 --> 00:49:53.800 anyway, for mine, yours and the listener sanity. I would like to 607 00:49:55.079 --> 00:50:00.000 end the episode here, thank you so much for listening to this, and 608 00:50:00.039 --> 00:50:05.920 I hope you're all okay, and always remember to check in on your family 609 00:50:05.920 --> 00:50:07.920 and friends, because I think that is just a strong reminder of that. 610 00:50:08.360 --> 00:50:13.000 Yeah, if you can get a chance to check us to support after murder 611 00:50:13.039 --> 00:50:15.400 our man's daughter group. If you need it, we'll put it in the 612 00:50:15.400 --> 00:50:20.719 show notes obviously with our references and everything like that. Yeah, just look 613 00:50:20.760 --> 00:50:25.840 after yourselves, look after each other, and and look after us by doing 614 00:50:25.920 --> 00:50:37.599 so. You can follow us on Twitter and Instagram and Facebook and everywhere all 615 00:50:37.679 --> 00:50:39.840 at give us More. If you want to see who you're listening to, 616 00:50:40.000 --> 00:50:44.920 you can always follow our own personal instagrams, which is at Magpile, Underscore 617 00:50:45.000 --> 00:50:52.000 and at Life's Names. You can also subscribe to us wherever you listen to 618 00:50:52.039 --> 00:50:57.519 your podcast and let us leave us. Don't leave us, leave us a 619 00:50:57.599 --> 00:51:04.519 review. You don't want to live my life, It's fine, you can 620 00:51:04.760 --> 00:51:09.440 leave us a review. You can find us pretty much everywhere that you can 621 00:51:09.480 --> 00:51:16.960 get your podcasts, such as Spotify and Apple Music Slash Apple Podcasts. And 622 00:51:17.239 --> 00:51:22.880 if you really liked this episode and haven't done so already, you can go 623 00:51:22.960 --> 00:51:27.679 check out some of our other episodes, such as last week where I talked 624 00:51:27.800 --> 00:51:35.760 about Grand Out Louise Pete and next week I'm sorry it's not gonna get much 625 00:51:35.880 --> 00:51:40.400 Jessy here not looking forward to it, but so if you thought this was 626 00:51:40.440 --> 00:51:45.920 hard, and just prepare yourselves for a roller coaster of possibly a three part 627 00:51:45.840 --> 00:51:52.800 three part see Jesus Christ. Okay, and leave us a comment on what 628 00:51:52.880 --> 00:51:58.480 you think I'm possibly covering, And thank you so much for listening, and 629 00:51:58.519 --> 00:52:02.639 we'll see you guys on the Flips and follies. It's a want