Hi, and welcome back to give us Mark. I'm Neve, I'm Megan,
and you were listening to mar eisode. That was my little intro.
I hope you all liked it. I thought it was beautiful. Thanks.
I've been taking singing lessons. Wow, I can really tell Arianna Grande who
I mean, It's more like Taylor Swift. But whatever, I mean,
I'll go how is everybody? This week? Megan has a I'm told fantastic
episode from us that won't make me cry, it's gonna make you cry.
I guess we'll just jump right in because if it's gonna make me cry,
it's probably gonna be long. I mean, the case itself is a straightforward
story, and unfortunately, I think it's something that maybe we have seen before,
not in this podcast, but in our personal lives. Oh. I
think we've all kind of maybe seen this kind of pattern in relationships of people
that we either know or have stumbled across. So I want to say that
this is a torture episode in which the victim does die because of torture.
So if you can't handle that, please just skip ahead. But that is
the only warning I'll be giving for this whole episode. Because the whole thing
is just complete. Is it like psychological or is it grisome? It's it's
trus say a little bit of both. But yeah, okay, So if
like I know, like a lot of people don't like to hear about the
gruesom tales I have felt not tales. They're not tales, They're stories of
real life people. But you know what I mean. So we're just going
to get into it then, O friend, guys. On the sixteenth of
April nineteen ninety six, James Patterson Smith walked into a Manchester police station and
told the officers there that his girlfriend had just drowned in the bathtub. Police
officers rushed to Smith's home to a very gruesome scene. So to go back
to the beginning. Kelly Anne was born on the eighteenth of May nineteen seventy
eight and lived with her parents in Motram, which is a small town just
outside of Manchester. Her parents were Margaret and Tommy Bates, and Kelly Anne
had two brothers, Andrew and Paul. As a little girl, Margaret says
Kelly Anne was a tomboy and she loved kids. Quote. Kelly loved children
and wanted to be a teacher. She was soft hearted and very maternal,
which I don't know, I think that is so cute. You know when
you see kids, they're kind of like it a little bit older, but
they really love to kind of look after the younger ones. And yeah,
I mean, ye want to be described h She loved hockey and would spend
her weekend's babysitting and working at a market stall. Apparently everyone who knew her
said that she had a quote old soul, which I think, like we
all know what that means, like somebody that's just really gentle and beautiful,
and she's just like a genuine person who's just like caring of other people,
and like she's sensible exactly, she is sensible. And that's what everybody would
kind of say about her, is that she had her wits about her a
bit and she was a very confident young woman. Kelly Anne was incredibly close
with her family, especially her parents. They had a lot of trust between
them. Like I said, Kelly Anne often babysat for neighbors and it was
during one of these evenings baby sitting in nineteen ninety three that she met a
man named James Patterson Smith. At the time that they met. Kelly Anne
was only fourteen and James was a ripe old forty five year old man.
I'm sorry what I thought you were going to say, like twenty or something.
No, no, absolute, this man was Oh my god, he's
like Paul Breach. Don't you bring him into this podcast? Do not.
I do not want to hear that man's name. Absolutely not, Green,
green Grass, blue blue, absolutely not. You have to know, you
have to bring your fucking sleeve halfway down your hand. You think, oh,
the ech the absolute ich Yeah, sorry it Why is he so old?
Not not all breached? Well the same good said when he's texted sixteen
year olds. But um, that's not my business. I mean it should
be somebody's business. It's like fucking the population of TikTok's business. Yeah,
TikTok will have him arrested. They will win this battle. He uses the
police as his own personal bodyguards. There he I'm sorry. The funniest is
that he called the guards all the police. If a bunch of teenagers were
heckling him, We're saying, hot chucky walkie, the police to come and
get them. Why didn't he Why didn't he just get a taxi home so
funny. But yeah, this guy James, he was forty five. That's
nasty. Fourteen he said, fourteen mm, that is foul. In what
dimension does a forty five year old have something in common with the fourteen year
old? What age he was like twenty one when she was born or some
shit, not even oldertyving me to do math and the math is not math
in okay, he was like thirty one when she was born. He's forty.
I feel ill. That is disgusting. First of all, why are
you attracted to a fourteen year old? What possibly could a forty five year
old man have in common with a fourteen year old girl? And like,
from her perspective, when you're a fourteen year old girl and this older dude,
can I ask the question, is he at least like somewhat good looking?
Absolutely not. It looks like Jimmy Savile. Oh my god, that's
even worse. So like from because I was going to say, from her
perspective, she's a fourteen year old girl and this like attractive older man is
like interested in her. So she's like thinks it's cool. Well, people
were attracted to Jimmy Savile back in the day as well, though, Yeah,
you know what, this is not helping things, because before this episode,
I was watching To Catch a Predator and it was just so many gross
old men looking for thirteen and fourteen year olds. I was like, Okay.
When guy walked into the house and just pulled down his zip and Chris
Hamson walks in, He's like, what are you doing with your zip?
There? Are you doing with your pants there? He's like, oh,
my zip just fell down. Oh it's just it's broken. My zip is
broken. I don't know. I just decided to bring alcohol condom and loops
just for emergency. I'm holding them for a friend. They're not mine,
Chris, go Chris, it's my friend that's the pedophile, not me.
My friend has asked me to come scope it out first to see if it
was you. You know what, I bet you somebody has at least tried
to use that excuse. They're wild and their excuses, Oh, their excuses
are up there. So like forty five and fourteen is just completely and utterly
disgusting. Yeah, and he knew it too. Anyway, we'll get to
that later on in the story. But that night, she was apparently babysitting
for like his friends, and he came over then later on and when he
met her he was like, oh, I'll walk you home. So that
night he did apparently walk her home and just from there they just apparently got
on really well. How do you get on so well with a fourteen year
old? Like, doesn't mean you to go fucking dater? Yes, sick.
Oh well, it's probably easy to get on with the fourteen year old.
And with the type of person that James is, he's just a predator.
No. When I say like, how do you get on? I
mean, how do you get on so well that you're like, oh,
she could make a great girlfriend. But this is the thing, I don't
think he's ever thinking, I don't know what way these people's work. He's
just yeah, I just I don't think I'll ever understand it. Like,
how can you look at someone so young, when you're that age and think
to yourself, I'd bone her. Yeah you know what I mean, that's
just what wash. Yeah, you've got something very very wrong with you.
Seriously. Yeah. And I even, like in my notes I said,
like a young girl or teenager, when somebody, when someone has really showing
you a lot of attention, you do feel really important and cool and loved
and special. Yeah, like she's fourteen, Like she thinks to herself,
Oh, wow, like this cool, cooler, older guy like fancies me.
Like she's like, wow, that's so cool, Like yeah, I
can tell my friends yeah, And she's like wow, Like that would like
almost boost her confidence and be like, wow, I must be like so
mature, mature and good looking that he fancies me one hundred and ten percent,
Like you don't think, oh this is weird, well, like why
is he interested in me? You're like, why wouldn't he be like exact
shit cool, you know, exactly, And so Smith began the grooming process,
which is exactly what this is, oh one person percent. They're kind
of dating in the background for a while, nobody really knows, and one
day Kerry just comes home with this huge bruise on her eye, which apparently
kind of almost took up her whole face, like one side of her face.
Jesus. Obviously, Margaret her mother asked about it, and she just
explained it away by saying that a group of girls just jumped her on the
way home from school. What the hell even at that? Would me be
like? That's like what? Like who who? Are these girls? Why
did they jump you? What's going on? Yeah, Like you'd have so
many questions being like did you say anything to them to rile them up?
Like did they steal anything from you? Do you know them? Are they
from your school? Is this an ongoing problem? Well, nobody's going to
think that this has to do with a grown man. No, of course,
not like as a parent, like when Anna reaches that age and she
comes home with like a black eye, Like I'm not going to assume that
a grown ass man that she's secretly dating has done it to her. Of
course not. Why would you, Like, no parent in their right mind
would be at all okay, okay with no no. However, she does
tell her parents that she does have a boyfriend by the name of Dave Smith.
They're not too concerned. Kelly is an independent girl, so they just
they're happy for her. They just innocently enough assume little boyfriend and girlfriend,
you know, nice cute and like because she's so sensible and so grown up
for her age and is a pretty decent Like she's a decent young girl,
Like she doesn't get herself into trouble, like you would just be like,
yeah, that's Okay, like it's probably just a boy from school and she
probably just doesn't want us to meet them yet, Like it's fine, yeah,
exactly, Like you wouldn't question her because she's so sensible. Yeah,
you're like, Okay, she's got this down. She's young. They're probably
not thinking about like sex or anything at this stage. Let's just let them
have they're innocent kind of thing. Yeah. At around this time, Kelly
Anne started sneaking it out of the house and staying at all night. Of
course, this concerning her parents, as she's obviously only fourteen. She wasn't
like staying out with her friends or anything like that like me and you might
have done back in the day. She was going straight to Smith's after school
on a Friday and staying there all weekend and coming home on Sunday evening to
get ready for school the next day. Yeah, like that's not now at
this point, that's not great. This is where things kind of start to
get a little more fucked up. At this point, James aka Dave would
actually ring the parents home and speak to them about Kelly Anne, saying that
he was also worried about her staying at all night, Like he knew how
long it would take for her to get the bus from his place to hers,
how long it would take her to walk from the bus stop home,
and he would ring within like a couple of minutes it took to get her
home. So he had counted this all out, like he knew where she
was supposed to be at all times. And from what I can understand,
I think the parents thought this is oh, this is really sweet, and
they're obviously at this stage still thinking that he's just like someone from her class,
not thinking that it's an older man. I mean, I struggle with
this a little bit, unless my timeline is wrong, because I am open
to that, because there isn't like the timeline jumps around. There isn't a
direct wherever you go. I mean, they could know that it's not someone
from her class, but they could be assuming that he's not forty five.
They could be assuming that he's like nineteen. I'm so sorry, though,
somebody who is forty five does sound different on the phone to nineteen or old.
Yeah, just thought, oh, like he's super mature or whatever.
I don't know, and I'm not here in any way shape or for him
to blame anybody or anything like that no, no, no, no,
yeah, except for him. At this point. Margaret and Tommy hadn't even
met Dave. One day when Kelly Anne was sixteen and an adult, and
I say that I think at the time it was like you're considered an adult
in legal terms if in England. At the time, her parents came home
from being out and she'd actually brought him over to the house. Margaret said
he from the beginning was overconfident and quote smarmie and when you hear somebody say
the words smarmie, you're like, yeah, he's like he's like a worm.
To me, it's Smermie is like, he's a cocky little shit who's
a smart, aunt cheeky, not an acute way in a like watch your
fucking self. The vibe that he's like, you know when you go to
the pub and you meet the old guy that's always there and he knows too
much. He's like, oh, did you know that this business or whatever
you say you're going to be completely wrong about and he's going to explain exactly
how you're wrong about it. Yeah, that's a vibe I gett And he
was coming down the stairs when Margaret first saw him, and he said,
quote, nice to meet you. Finally, excuse me, and first of
all, what are you doing upstairs? Why are you upstairs in my home?
Bick freak, get out, get out of my house. Don't say
finally to me. You're the one that's been hiding this whole time. You
would be as a parent, first of all, has scared would you be?
How scared would you be to see a forty seven year old man walking
down your stairs? I'd say her heart just dropped. You'd be like,
what the fuck? Who are you? Why are you in my house?
Well, Margaret says all she could think about. That's how she wanted to
immediately get rid of him. She's like, she's like, this is clearly
not a young boy or even a young man. Like she's like, this
is out of my remmate, this is not what I thought? Whatsoever?
Yeah? Yeah, like does it? At first, she believed to be
like either someone from her class or someone slightly older, But she obviously was
thinking like nineteen twenty, not someone who is old enough to be her literal
father, literally around when the fucking wheel was invented, Like with your fourteen
year old actually sixteen at this stage year old daughter at this stage. Yeah.
Yeah. And one thing about him is he looks his age like he
looks not to say god, but you know, he looks old, like
he's weathered. He looks yeah, like he doesn't look like a young forty
five or forty seven. He looks Yeah. I would say he actually looks
older in my opinion. Then that when you see a picture of him,
and I'll show you one, it gives you old pub guy in the corner.
Yeah. Yes. Margaret will go on to say how she remembers going
into the kitchen seeing a bread knife and all she wanted to do was stobbed
this man and kill him and get him away from her daughter. Mother inks
thinked, like, of course you'd be so concerned as to why this older
man wants what he want with my child. Quote the first time I met
him, he swaggered in and it made the hairs stand up on the back
of my neck. He was much older than I expected. I visitly recalled
seeing our bread knife in the kitchen and wanting to pick it up and stab
him in the back. It was a bizarre thought. I would never normally
think of anything so violent, And now I wonder whether it was some sort
of sixth sense. Looking back, it's my greatest regret that I didn't kill
him there and then it would have saved my daughter's life. No, that's
so sad, you know, Margaret, you're a great mother. Don't blame
yourself. So just here, we're just going to take a quick ad break.
We are back from the ad. At this time, Kelly Anne had
told her family that Smith was, in fact thirty two, which is all
ready an astounding age difference. That's trying to make himself half her age,
like her half his age. But the truth was that he is well over
half right, well over. The truth was like, exactly what like you
said, he was actually about forty seven or forty eight, making him a
year older than Kelly Anne's own father. Margaret and Tommy at this stage,
they didn't really know what to do. They thought if they pushed her,
it would just send her further into his arms. Yeah, I get that.
After Kelly Anne him home multiple times with bruises and other injuries like white
marks, Margaret tried to speak to her about this man. Obviously She's like,
no, he's good to me. I love him. Her appearance also
began to change. She seemed not to be showering, her hair and clothes
would be dirty, and even her posture changed. It was at this point
she kind of started to bring her shoulders in on herself. You could see
like her world just getting smaller and tighter and more possessed by him. One
and ten percent. The grit that this man had on a teenager is absolutely
terrifying. And again, as a parent, how are you supposed to navigate
this situation? What are you supposed to do? You don't want to tell
her that she can't see him, because that's just not going to work and
she's just going to want him more. But then you don't want to just
let her see him because he's this way older guy that you see clear as
day is not good news and is not good for her, is abusing her.
So it's like, where's the fine line, Like where is the correct
thing to do or say? And I think everybody listening, even ourselves,
that we can sit here retrospectively, looking back on the situation and be like,
well I would do this, and I would do that, But you
don't know until you're in that high pressure intent situation. No, And for
people that are listening to this saying, they should have just locked her in
her room and blah blah blah blah. That's not a solution either, because
that's also not good for her mental health and for her well being, Like
you have to do it in a way that gets across to her. Her
home house with her parents is a safe space. And if she doesn't want
this man in her life, she does not have to have this. How
do you tell it's sixteen year old or seventeen year old girl, If you
don't want this man in your life, you don't have to have him in
your life. This is a thing at that age, Like it's so hard
to break up with people. It's hard to even break off friendships, you
know, or things like that Harry is supposed to with somebody, especially when
they're basically your dad. I strongly believe that it is not until like twenty
five are over that you start to be like, no, you're a toxic
person. I don't want you in my life. Up until that point,
you're just like, oh no, but they're my friend. Oh yeah,
I can definitely agree, Like you're just like, oh no, but they're
my friend. So like you stick up for it, and it's and then
it's the same, it's like, oh no, but that's my boyfriend,
Like they love me. No, I don't know. You just learn to
stand up for yourself really, yeah, But I do think it's not until
like your later twenties that you kind of find the confidence to actually be like,
no, you're actually not a nice person and I don't want you in
my life. And then you figure out your own way, and it's I
think that's when you really start to see I think it's because like you're getting
older and you're starting these mature ventures like moving out of home, and like
you start kind of doing all of that stuff later into your twenties, and
so then I think that's when you're like, actually, don't want certain people
in my life anymore. Yeah, it's that. And then it's the life
experience and knowing how other people have affected you and how it affected your overall
well being, and you just get to a point where you're just like,
why am I allowing this to happen to my sie? Am I allowing this?
For When you're like sixteen seventeen, it's a real case of oh,
no, but they love me. They wouldn't be doing this if they didn't
love me, And so it's like, how do you get her away from
that? At this point of the situation, I don't even think this is
her age is massively relevant. Well, I do think it is relevant,
but I think that this guy, by this stage, he just has such
a hold on her that it's not even about her age anymore. It's just
that this guy has mentally psychologically wore her that she's just like, oh no,
but I can't believe him. Yeah, And abusers have that way of
going about it. And I watched I think she's a psychologist on YouTube talk
about this case and she'd covered this case on Crime in Kenton or Crime Plus
or something, Crime and Investigation, that's what it was. But she secondation
on the episode that she'd covered Kelly Ann on that she didn't feel that she
got to do the case justice and it's not how she would have liked to
have talked about the case. And she was saying, you know how much
an abuser, no matter what the age is, they know how to pick
people that they feel they can manipulate from the get go. They are actively
looking for victims and maybe they're not in their brain thinking their word victim or
anything I'm looking for. Yeah, but it's like in the back of their
head, somewhere deep down, they're like they're looking. She would be easy
to get her to do X, Y and zai, easier to control.
She's not going to go at you know, she's not going to fight me
on this or whatever. Yeah, And in this situation, as as mature
as Kelly Anne was, I think her age, that's when it plays a
factor in the actual choosing of her. But then as an abuser manipulating her.
Yeah, once I navigate the situation with their parents and just wait till
she's sixteen, then we're good. What can they do nothing? Yeah,
And then it's a case of wait until she's eighteen, then I can get
her into the highest Well, this is the thing. Margaret did. Called
police, but they told her there was nothing that they could do without a
statement from Kelly Anne. After speaking with them and domestic abuse centers, Margaret
was advised to make a doctor's appointment in Kelly Anne's name, but to actually
go herself and inform the doctor what her suspicions were, so that if Kelly
Ann ever did show up with any complaints that it would be on file.
At this point, though I don't know if a doctor would actually do that
for you, No, I don't think so. They're very strict like nowadays,
Like it's to the point now that like if I make a doctor's appointment,
I can't even bring Anna in with me, to be like, oh,
whilst time here, Anna fel the other day and yeah, you know,
like I have to make a separate appointment for her. Yeah. But
I feel like if they would take you, it's a good idea because at
least the doctor would know what to look out for. Although, to be
honest, I think doctors are now wild trained in that. Like back then,
back in the nineties and early two thousands, it wasn't high priority.
I don't mean that in a bad way. I mean isn't like when I
was pregnant with Anna and we first went to like our hospital appointments and they
brought me up to the MLU, which is like midwives Lead Unit, which
is like where you have to do everything naturally, but you get like your
own private suite and it's much better, and they're asking you questions like about
family history and stuff like that, all these kind of questions just so they
know to kind of like what to look out for. And then when cattle
left the room, they were like, now is your home safe? Like
are you safe? Oh okay? Yeah, Like they are like, is
everything okay at home? Are you safe? Like it's like up there with
their questions, Oh okay, that's really interesting where I don't think they would
have done that back then. Yeah. I think I feel now it's very
much at the forefront, like are you safe from home? Yeah. In
November of nineteen ninety five, Kelly Anne moved in with Smith at his residence
on Furnival Road in Gorton, Manchester. Just about her parents not being overjoyed,
Kelly Anne promised to keep in touch and visit often. After all,
like why wouldn't she you know, there's no reason why she wouldn't keep in
touch. Kelly Ann would speak to her parents most weeks on the phone,
but as time went on, the phone calls would become less and less,
and when they did get to hear from her, it was clear that Smith
was there, as Kelly Anne would seem to get somewhat stiff. By this
point, Kelly Anne had said that she had gotten a new job and they
were offering her plenty of overtime, and so that means that she's going to
be your end to visit less often. In reality, she had joined Smith
in unemployment, something I'm sure he forced her to do. The parents would
try to visit often, but Smith was always there, and at some point
they started to get worried that their presence was actually going to make things worse
for Kelly Anne. Yeah, I get that because, like as an abuser,
but they're like, did you call them? Why the fuck are they
here? Did you tell them like I did something to you that? And
then you know, your parents are so annoying and then flying into a race,
like because they're paranoid because they know what they're doing is wrong. So
they're like paranoid that they're like, you know that they're going to get find
out. And then on top of it, it's like, your father looked
at me this way, that's your fault. Yeah. One time when her
parents went to visit her, they want like I think it was probably the
first time. They just wanted to see where she was living, like this
is not their kind of area at all. As they sat drinking tea in
the kitchen, Kelly Anne sat with her head down and Smith showed them a
hole in the ground that some repair work had left behind the hole would actually
be used for much darker purposes. Oh God. One day, after not
hearing from Kelly Anne for a while, they decided to go and visit.
They were getting ready to leave the house when their son walked in the door
and excitedly told them that a friend of his had seen Kelly Anne and that
she seemed well unhappy. They were all right with this, so they settled
back into the home. However, the friend had actually seen Kelly Anne in
December, and at this point we're now into the next year of nineteen ninety
six, so it had been a couple of months. Her brother at one
point even showed up to Smith's to see Kelly Anne, only to be told
she wasn't there, which she obviously was because where else would she be.
A concerned neighbor even knocked around to see Kellyanne to make sure that she was
okay, but they were only able to see her from the droom window.
On the tenth of March, Margaret called Kelly Anne to let her know that
she'd missed a dental appointment. That was the last contact they'd have with their
daughter. It was just after Mother's Day when Margaret got a Mother's Day card
from Kelly in Smith's handwriting, and then more came for Tommy's birthday and then
their anniversary, and that's when she knew that things had gotten extremely bad.
You just know, when the carrots are showing up in his handwriting, it's
like, did she hurt her hand? Yeah? And at the same time,
this is her family, She's close to her family. There's no calls,
there's no visits. The cards that she said she was going to send,
like, why are they in his handwriting? What's going on? Her
parents are right to be concerned, just based on the apparent treatment of their
daughter. What they didn't know was that James Patterson Smith had a history of
abusing his partners. James had been married and divorced after ten years due to
domestic violence. James then dated twenty year old Tina Watson from nineteen eighty to
nineteen eighty two, apparently using her as a quote hunchback. He even hit
her over the head with an ashtray and then tried to drown her while she
was in the bath and I believe pregnant with his child. Oh my god.
Thankfully she was able to escape after this relationship ends. He goes for
fifteen year old Wendy mother's head and again she is subjected to a lot of
violence, and he also tried to drown her in the kitchen sink. I
believe by filling up the se and holding her head in it. You can
see as well the ages are getting lower. Thing for water, Yeah,
starts up. It's obviously like the first girlfriend was too old, she was
too hard to control. The second girlfriend little easier to control, but still
slightly too old, still a little bit harder to kind of convince. And
well, they were very lucky that they managed to get away. Kelly Anne
would not be so lucky. And we're just going to take a quick at
break here. Over a period of approximately four weeks, Kelly Anne would be
relentlessly tortured by an incredibly evil man. When the police turned up to Smith's
home on the sixteenth of April nineteen ninety six, the scene was gruesome.
Kelly Anne was found lifeless in a bedroom. It didn't take a forensic examiner
to realize that this has been no accident, so he went to the police
station and said she drowned in the bath, and then the police found her
on the bed or in the bedroom. Yeah, I believe. So that's
weird. Well, he's saying at the time, it was probably like oh,
I tried to resuscitate her. Kelly Ann's blood was found in every single
room of the house. Her autopsy showed if she frowned, why, like
I said, this man does not have more than two brain cells to rub
together. Her autopsy showed that she had over one hundred and fifty stab wounds
alone, caused by multiple instruments, including forks. She was extremely malnourished and
dehydrated, having lost her and twenty kilos. To keep her in place,
Smith would tie Kelly Anne to radiators and other furniture by her hair. There
were marks on her neck that indicated she had been strangled. Smith used cigarettes
and a hot iron to brand her in different areas of her body, including
her inner thigh. Oh scalding hot water had been poured on her, marking
her books and legs, her whole face, her nose, mouth, eyebrows,
ears, and her genitals had been mutilated. If guys ray at the
sixteen year old girl, that's not even half of it. Smith had crushed
her hands, feet, and kneecaps to make escape absolutely impossible. Her arm
was fractured, and she had been partially scalped. These injuries alone are obviously
horrific and one of, if not the worst case I've ever heard about.
However, it does get worse, and so these aren't what killed her.
Like she had to endure all of this. As part of the pathologist William
Lawler quote not less than five days and not more than three weeks before her
death, Kelly Anne's eyes had been gudged out. The autopsy showed that Kelly
Ann had not only stab wounds on the inside of her mouth, but on
the inside of the now empty eye sockets. He gauged at her eyes alive,
she was alive, and she was alive or at least five days before
I can't even imagine. And then he would wait until the socket would start
to heal and he would stab it, and then he'd stab it again.
That's sadistic, Like that is the rage that man put onto a sixteen year
old girl. I think it may be one of the worst things that I've
ever heard, to be honest with you, Yeah, that's up there,
like has to be, because I've heard of serial killers do all of these
things, but not to one person. He just used her like a doll,
like like a punchbag, like like his previous girlfriend. Like it's almost
like he was just trying to see, like can I guidge out her eyes?
Or will that killer? Let's find out? Yeah, keep in mind
that this man is somebody that he spent a couple of years grooming her,
Like he started things off like why I love you? You know she loved
him. She's supposed to feel safe with this man. He's so much older
than her. Why would he do something like this to her? It's just
I've often been questioned like what is wrong with people? Why do they?
You know, like you're like why is wrong with them? Like? Why
do they go kill? Why did they go do this? No, what
is wrong with this man? There is something so seriously wrong with you that
you think as a man of almost fifty years of age, and you think
to yourself, that's sixteen year old girl. I'm going to break all of
her hands and all of her feet so she can't escape me. I'm gonna
tie her to the radiator with her hair. Do you know how hard you'd
have to stab somebody, how much force you'd have to put behind stabbing somebody
with a fork. I don't want to think about it. That's just realistically.
If your steak is too tough, and this man managed to stab her
with the fork, Yep, horrifying. Kelly Anne's official cause of death was
drowning. He must have had her in the bath before he beat her with
the shower head, causing her to drown in the bathwater. The pathologist said
that he had completed over six hundred autopsies, but he had never seen a
case as horrific as this. Yeah, Margaret knew what had happened the second
police knocked on her door. She knew that man had killed her only daughter.
Tommy had to go and identify his only daughters, His sixteen year old
child's body that is mutilated, completely and utterly mutilated with scars. We doesn't
have her eyes, of course. James Patterson Smith is arrested almost as quickly
as he walked into that police station. Once they got to that house,
they were like, yo, keep that guy. Did he think that they
were going to like? How was he going to explain? I don't really
know what his plan was. I think so. I think what happened is
he walked into that police station he tried to say that she did die from
drowning, and then he said something along the lines off, oh, I've
I've really done it now, Like he said something like that to a police
officer, and I think at that point then they knew. Do you think
he was hoping to say, like, oh, my girlfriend drowned and then
hoping that he'd be able to just leave the station. I don't know.
I really don't know what his plan was, because, bro, she's missing
her eyes. How are you going to explain that? When it came time
for trial, he would not admit that he abused Gallian. He said that
she god him into doing these things by impersonating his dead mother and daring him
to do these things to her, as in by like go on do it,
stab me. You won't do it. As many times as someone would
be like go on, stab me, do it, I'd like what,
No, you're weird, though, yeah, get out of my house.
You wouldn't just be like, okay, all right, I guess I will
guess. I have to know you asked for it, you know, no,
I And then he said she had a quote bad habit of hurting herself
to make it look worse on me, I wonder to who is this making
you look worse? Because you didn't let her leave the house. Nobody was
allowed to see her, So what the fuck is casually broke both hands and
feet. She broke her own, her own knees. Of course, she
broke her own What make it make sense? If you're gonna pretend like it
wasn't you at least come up with better excuses. The prosecution told the jury,
quote, the injuries were not the result of one sudden eruption of violence.
They must have been caused over a long period and were so extensive and
so terrible that the defendant must have deliberately and systematically tortured the girl. After
only an hour of deliberations, James Patterson Smith was found guilty. The judge,
Mister Justice Sachs, said, quote, you are a highly dangerous person.
You are an abuser of women, and I intend, so far as
it is in my power, that you will abuse no more. Justin Patterson
Smith was given a life sentence. Due to the disturbing material and evidence the
jury had to review, they were all offered pen sling, and every single
jury member accepted it. He in recent years did apply for parole saying that
he was now a changed man, but he is very quickly rejected good.
A little bit more on the family, Margaret Bates actually did die of respiratory
failure in December of twenty nineteen, aged sixty five, after two battles with
breast cancer, leaving behind her husband, Tommy, and her two sons.
Before her death, Margaret worked at a checkout at a supermarket, although their
family home had already been torn down. She said she could see the site
from where her checkout was through the window and would say that she could feel
Kelly on with her at the checkout sometimes. You know, just that is
like the cutest thing in the world. I know, it just breaks my
heart. And people were saying that like Margaret was absolutely lovely. She was
always polite, friendly, like willing to offer a hand, like this awful,
awful man took her daughter away, and she still managed to stay like
positive in life, and she didn't let it like consume her life to the
point where like she was just that mean old lady, do you know what
I mean. In nineteen ninety seven, Tommy and Margaret actually set up a
group called Support after murder or Man's daughter in Ashton so it's a support group
for families who have been affected, but this kind of crime. So that
is the story. And I don't know what was going on with the water
in Manchester at the time, because it was reminding me obviously a lot of
the case of Suzanne Kapper. Right, yeah, I said, it's a
torture case. Happened in the nineties, so I checked it out. The
house that Susanne Kapper was tortured in was only a sixteen minute drive from where
Kelly Anne had been kept. Oh my god, that's wild. Susanne Capper
was murdered in nineteen ninety two, and then Kelly Anne was murdered in nineteen
ninety six. What the fuck? Manchester only four only four years apart.
That's like they're big murder cases. Well, at the time, Susanne Capper
didn't really receive a lot of media attention. Oh no, yeah, Kelly
Anne Bates, she did get obviously a bit more. Well at the time,
No, Susan Kapper didn't really receive a lot of attention to think like
that man was in her life for three years and how much damage he caused.
Oh yeah, he looks like Jimmy Savile for sure time. There's the
parents and then there's Kelly Anne. She was so sweet, she like,
she was so cute looking. You know. The mother and father looked the
type looked like the type of people that like would offer you cup of tea.
Yeah, you know, they'd be like you all right, love,
you need the cup of tea? Yeah, Like look at her here here
a little fringe. Isn't that just me? Unadorable? She's like little dogs,
little Dalmatians of under one Dalmatians on her top. Like, I don't
know this case. I heard it once on a podcast like a couple of
years ago, and I spent one of those that like you kind of in
your head like yeah, yeah, like follows your end. And when you
think of, say, the likes of um, you know, the Hello
Kittie murder and stuff like that, like other torture murderers that are so talked
about and often everybody talks about them, which of course they deserve to be
talked about, and they deserve exposure talked about. But it's almost amazing to
me that this is not a better known case because that is a horrific amount
of rage an attack on a person. Yeah, it's it's the grooming as
well, and the fact that it happened so easily. So that's the case
of Kenny and Dates. That's all I have to say. And one thing
I will ask is if you do look this up, be careful. In
terms of the pictures. There aren't from what I could find, and I
didn't go looking for them. I did not find any pictures of her at
the crime scene, but that's not to say it's not to say they don't
exist. And I have heard of people saying that they did see a couple.
So I'm just asking you to be very very careful if you do decide
to kind of do your own investigation into this case. Yeah. What it's
just amazing about this is how the family person and her they were just able
to keep going. They made a support group, they wanted to help others,
they wanted to reach out, and it's just absolutely amazing what they were
able to make out of this. Yeah, because when stuff like this,
obviously so horrific and so traumatic, happens, it's very easy to just let
that be your life then and then like you just live in a dark hole
of like this happened, you know what I mean? Were these were the
type of people that were just like, no, this isn't how she wanted
to live her life, and like, this isn't what she'd want to be
remembered for. She'd want to be remembered for like a support group. Yeah,
and that's something that makes me really happy. And the fact that when
you google this this case, it's not like his picture isn't it's all her
and her parents. It's all her, yeah, looking happy, you know,
like she there's a picture of her where she's feeding a baby and she
just looks within her element. And it kills me to see that this fucking
absolute animal of it. Animals wouldn't do that to each other. And literally,
I was just going to say, animal is even too kind of a
description from him. There would not do that too. This man was just
fucking sadistic and cruel. I was just gonna say, the only good thing
is that he's most more than likely going to die in prison. At this
moment in time, he would be in his seventies. Well, you know
what, I think prison is too good for him. I genuinely don't really
degree with the death sentence. There are I think special cases where I'm like,
you know what, and he's up there in that. There's a few
things that I have to say about the death sentence and about how you know
one innocent person is not worth all that kind of a thing, and there
is an argument to be made. But at the same time, when it
comes to people like this that have done something so vile, I don't want
them to die. I want them to live in pain forever. You know
what the thing is. I don't actually believe that Margaret ever fully knew what
happened to Kelly Anne, because she said she was better off. She said
at one point that she would pick up the phone and go to call the
coroner so that she could hear the details, and then she would just going,
no, no, it's not worth it. I'd say as well,
though, like her husband was like, please don't for your sanity and mine
anyway, for mine, yours and the listener sanity. I would like to
end the episode here, thank you so much for listening to this, and
I hope you're all okay, and always remember to check in on your family
and friends, because I think that is just a strong reminder of that.
Yeah, if you can get a chance to check us to support after murder
our man's daughter group. If you need it, we'll put it in the
show notes obviously with our references and everything like that. Yeah, just look
after yourselves, look after each other, and and look after us by doing
so. You can follow us on Twitter and Instagram and Facebook and everywhere all
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if you really liked this episode and haven't done so already, you can go
check out some of our other episodes, such as last week where I talked
about Grand Out Louise Pete and next week I'm sorry it's not gonna get much
Jessy here not looking forward to it, but so if you thought this was
hard, and just prepare yourselves for a roller coaster of possibly a three part
three part see Jesus Christ. Okay, and leave us a comment on what
you think I'm possibly covering, And thank you so much for listening, and
we'll see you guys on the Flips and follies. It's a want