WEBVTT 1 00:00:03.919 --> 00:00:08.839 You are listening to the IFH podcast Network. For more amazing filmmaking and screenwriting 2 00:00:08.880 --> 00:00:14.839 podcasts, just go to ifahpodcastnetwork dot com. Welcome to the Bulletproof Screenwriting Podcast, 3 00:00:14.960 --> 00:00:18.679 Episode number three point thirty eight. Love All, Trust a Few, 4 00:00:19.239 --> 00:00:24.440 Do Wrong to none. William Shakespeare broadcasting from a dark, windowless room in 5 00:00:24.480 --> 00:00:28.760 Hollywood when we really should be working on that next draft. It's the Bulletproof 6 00:00:28.800 --> 00:00:33.719 Screenwriting Podcast, showing you the craft and business of screenwriting while teaching you how 7 00:00:33.719 --> 00:00:40.000 to make your screenplay bulletproof. And here's your host, Alex Ferrari. Welcome, 8 00:00:40.000 --> 00:00:43.560 Welcome to another episode of the Bulletproof Screenwriting Podcast. I am your humble 9 00:00:43.560 --> 00:00:49.719 host Alex Ferrari. Now, today's show is sponsored by Bulletproof Script Coverage. 10 00:00:49.960 --> 00:00:55.840 Now, unlike other script coverage services, Bulletproof Script Coverage actually focuses on the 11 00:00:56.000 --> 00:01:00.320 kind of project you are and the goals of the project you are. Actually 12 00:01:00.320 --> 00:01:03.640 break it down by three categories micro budget, indie film, market and studio 13 00:01:03.719 --> 00:01:07.879 film. There's no reason to get coverage from a reader that's used to reading 14 00:01:07.959 --> 00:01:11.239 tempole movies when your movie is gonna be done for one hundred thousand dollars and 15 00:01:11.280 --> 00:01:15.879 we wanted to focus on that. At Bulletproof Script Coverage, our readers have 16 00:01:15.920 --> 00:01:19.760 worked with Marvel Studios, CIA, w MEE, NBC, HBO, Disney, 17 00:01:21.200 --> 00:01:23.560 Scott Free, Warner Brothers, The Blacklist, and many many more. 18 00:01:23.680 --> 00:01:30.680 So if you need your screenplay or TV script covered by professional readers, head 19 00:01:30.680 --> 00:01:34.200 on over to covermiscreenplay dot Com. Well today, guys, you are in 20 00:01:34.359 --> 00:01:41.599 for a treat. I have on the show today legendary film director John Badham. 21 00:01:42.079 --> 00:01:49.480 John has made decade defining features like Saturday Night Fever and eighties blockbusters like 22 00:01:49.599 --> 00:01:55.480 Wargames, Short Circuit and Stakeout, and not to mention nineties hits like Bird 23 00:01:55.519 --> 00:01:59.120 on a Wire with Mel Gibson, The Hard Way, and Point of No 24 00:01:59.239 --> 00:02:02.640 Return, just to name a few. John is also the author of two 25 00:02:02.680 --> 00:02:09.080 amazing books on directing called John Badham on Directing and I'll Be in My Trailer 26 00:02:09.159 --> 00:02:15.479 The Creative Wars between Directors and Actors. And he's also a tenured film professor 27 00:02:15.560 --> 00:02:21.759 at Chapman University here in Los Angeles. John is a wealth of knowledge and 28 00:02:22.039 --> 00:02:24.599 experience when it comes to directing, and he's been doing it for close to 29 00:02:24.800 --> 00:02:29.520 fifty years. I know that sounds like a lot John, I'm sorry, 30 00:02:29.800 --> 00:02:35.919 but it's almost five decades of directing and working with actors and telling stories and 31 00:02:36.000 --> 00:02:39.800 working at the highest levels of Hollywood, and I was just such a thrill 32 00:02:39.879 --> 00:02:45.000 to sit down and pick John's brain in this episode. So if you guys 33 00:02:45.039 --> 00:02:50.800 are interested in directing, this episode is just plum full of knowledge bombs about 34 00:02:50.800 --> 00:02:54.639 directing, about storytelling, about working with actors, all sorts of amazing tips. 35 00:02:54.680 --> 00:02:59.319 I learned a lot, and I really want to thank John again to 36 00:02:59.319 --> 00:03:02.520 take time out of his busy schedule to jump on this episode and talk to 37 00:03:02.560 --> 00:03:07.759 the tribe. So, without any further ado, please enjoy my conversation with 38 00:03:07.879 --> 00:03:12.599 John Badham. I like to welcome to the show, the legendary John Batham. 39 00:03:12.680 --> 00:03:15.000 How you doing, sir, Thank you so much for doing the show. 40 00:03:15.680 --> 00:03:17.360 Oh, this is great fun to be here. I'm glad to talk 41 00:03:17.400 --> 00:03:23.240 to you. You are you basically were my youth. I grew up in 42 00:03:23.280 --> 00:03:27.639 the eighties and the nineties watching your movies and it is an absolute thrill to 43 00:03:27.680 --> 00:03:30.080 have you on the show. Well, thank you. I'm having fun being 44 00:03:30.120 --> 00:03:34.919 here, all right. So, first off, how did you get started 45 00:03:35.039 --> 00:03:43.280 in the film business. I actually was a theater major at Yale, and 46 00:03:43.319 --> 00:03:53.000 I was in the Yale Drama School also, so I got interested in film 47 00:03:53.560 --> 00:03:59.360 and sort of thought foolishly that I could just show up in California and start 48 00:03:59.400 --> 00:04:01.960 to get involved in it, you know, I mean I had a master's 49 00:04:01.960 --> 00:04:08.000 degree in directing. It was in theater when people would say, well, 50 00:04:08.000 --> 00:04:11.439 who would you like to do? Say I want to direct? Oh great, 51 00:04:11.479 --> 00:04:15.120 what have you directed? Well? Place, place, Get out of 52 00:04:15.160 --> 00:04:21.720 here. So what are that? No matter what decades you were you were 53 00:04:21.720 --> 00:04:29.680 born in there's always naive day the trade. And and so I, you 54 00:04:29.680 --> 00:04:32.199 know, I hung in there, kept looking for a job, and finally 55 00:04:33.839 --> 00:04:40.720 landed something in the mail room at Universal and and you know, by then 56 00:04:40.839 --> 00:04:45.800 I thought this is a big deal. Actually got a job delivering mail on 57 00:04:45.879 --> 00:04:48.360 the lot. Of course those she used to be on the lot absolutely. 58 00:04:48.439 --> 00:04:53.839 And I walk into the mail room and there's twelve guys there, four of 59 00:04:53.879 --> 00:05:01.199 them with master's degrees, including me at eight with bachelor's degrees, and and 60 00:05:01.480 --> 00:05:08.240 in the hot California summer sun, were stepping mail up and down the hill. 61 00:05:09.639 --> 00:05:14.199 So but but the idea was that you would kind of find your way 62 00:05:14.240 --> 00:05:18.160 out of there. You'd find a department on the lot that wanted to train 63 00:05:18.279 --> 00:05:24.319 some people. And it was a busy, busy time at Universal where they 64 00:05:24.360 --> 00:05:30.160 had twenty four hours of television plus all of their movies. So the lot 65 00:05:30.279 --> 00:05:34.319 was just rocking, and opportunities were, you know, popping up right and 66 00:05:34.399 --> 00:05:42.680 left. I eventually found a home in the casting office as a trainee casting 67 00:05:42.720 --> 00:05:46.240 director, and there's that's where I started to work with the with real directors 68 00:05:46.240 --> 00:05:53.480 and real producers and and who you know, listen to me when I started 69 00:05:53.480 --> 00:06:00.439 talking about wanting to direct, so and you got into television firstman, So 70 00:06:00.519 --> 00:06:04.240 I got into television first because I was working with it with a great television 71 00:06:04.279 --> 00:06:15.560 producer, William Sackheim, who let me start directing small things like literally inserts 72 00:06:15.000 --> 00:06:19.000 close up on the cigar in the ashtray, you know, close up on 73 00:06:19.040 --> 00:06:26.600 the telephone being dialed, but to go from there into actually having real people 74 00:06:26.600 --> 00:06:31.439 in the shot and then whole scenes. And finally, when we started a 75 00:06:31.560 --> 00:06:42.040 series called The Senator with Hal Holbrook, he and and his other producer David 76 00:06:42.120 --> 00:06:47.920 Levinson, said yes, you can direct number seven of this series, which 77 00:06:48.000 --> 00:06:51.759 was just great. I mean, we know, what an opportunity. Wow, 78 00:06:51.759 --> 00:06:57.000 how many and how many years were you hustling to get to that opportunity, 79 00:06:57.519 --> 00:07:01.000 so that I think that's about six years. I think five or six 80 00:07:01.079 --> 00:07:09.279 years before I got to that place, and I thought, oh my god, 81 00:07:09.360 --> 00:07:15.279 it's so late. Oh I'm just going to be ancient. But you 82 00:07:15.319 --> 00:07:19.720 know, thank goodness, it worked out all right. And then that got 83 00:07:19.759 --> 00:07:27.519 me another another film which which actually won me an Emmy nomination, another episode 84 00:07:27.560 --> 00:07:34.079 of the same show, and and and that that little stamp of approval, 85 00:07:34.120 --> 00:07:40.240 that Emmy nomination, that it kept me busy for years and years. Yeah, 86 00:07:40.240 --> 00:07:43.160 you were doing a lot of what they used to call tell TV movies 87 00:07:43.279 --> 00:07:47.079 or movies of the week. I segued into ten TV movies, which were 88 00:07:47.879 --> 00:07:53.439 just all over the place. There had to be half a dozen every week. 89 00:07:53.560 --> 00:07:58.040 Oh they were every week, were producing them, and so they were 90 00:07:58.079 --> 00:08:03.920 like little movies and and be shot in say fifteen days. That was like 91 00:08:03.160 --> 00:08:09.839 great fifteen days because by comparison, the hour shows were being shot in six 92 00:08:09.920 --> 00:08:16.040 days, right, uh, and these were only like thirty minutes longer. 93 00:08:16.360 --> 00:08:18.319 So you had it was it was you were you were being spoiled. So 94 00:08:18.680 --> 00:08:22.319 oh my god, this is brat and you got to do, you know, 95 00:08:22.920 --> 00:08:28.360 more interesting stuff and some some action things, and and and people. 96 00:08:28.800 --> 00:08:33.919 You know, it might take you seriously when you start looking for a movie 97 00:08:33.440 --> 00:08:39.720 as opposed to having just done our television nice No, So how did you 98 00:08:39.759 --> 00:08:48.480 get involved with Saturday Night Fever? I had gotten to do a movie with 99 00:08:48.720 --> 00:08:56.039 Richard Pryor and James Earl Jones and Billy D Williams about the history of Negro 100 00:08:56.159 --> 00:09:03.759 baseball with the unlikely an unwieldy title of the Bingo Long Traveling All Stars and 101 00:09:03.879 --> 00:09:11.639 Motor Kings's okay, But it was a comedy and uh and was great fun 102 00:09:11.679 --> 00:09:18.720 that we shot uh in ballparks all over Georgia and uh and it had a 103 00:09:18.720 --> 00:09:24.360 lot of music and and and dancing in it. It was a co production 104 00:09:24.480 --> 00:09:37.879 with Motown and Universal. Uh and that actually led to led It led to 105 00:09:37.960 --> 00:09:45.759 me ginning up with with Motown to buy the rights to the Broadway musical The 106 00:09:45.799 --> 00:09:56.360 Whiz and for for Universal and and for Motown, we'll be right back after 107 00:09:56.399 --> 00:10:05.440 a word from our sponsor, and now back to the show. And so 108 00:10:05.559 --> 00:10:11.679 I was working on that with my with my then partner Rob Cohen, when 109 00:10:11.559 --> 00:10:20.159 when Universal and Motown decided that for little twelve year old Dorothy we should have 110 00:10:20.200 --> 00:10:28.120 the noted twelve year old Diana Ross Right play the part. And I said, 111 00:10:28.720 --> 00:10:31.960 guys, I mean, this is a great opportunity. She's a fabulous 112 00:10:33.000 --> 00:10:37.440 actress, singer, dancer, I mean, what name it. But she's 113 00:10:37.879 --> 00:10:39.600 you know, whatever age she is, I don't know, you know, 114 00:10:39.799 --> 00:10:48.399 late twenties, early thirties, probably late twenties. And and and Dorothy you 115 00:10:48.440 --> 00:10:54.840 know, is literally INDI l Frank Boum books is six years old, which 116 00:10:54.879 --> 00:11:01.759 explains why there's cowardly lyons and ten men and strong uh you know, scarecrows, 117 00:11:01.919 --> 00:11:07.039 all kind of the imagination of a child. So wouldn't it be nice 118 00:11:07.080 --> 00:11:13.960 if we could find somebody that was really young that could play this. And 119 00:11:13.000 --> 00:11:16.039 I'm sure nobody's ever going to have heard of her because we're going to discover 120 00:11:16.840 --> 00:11:24.440 well that got into a big thing. And finally, finally we parted ways 121 00:11:26.559 --> 00:11:28.879 on that. I said, well, you guys understand this because I don't 122 00:11:28.919 --> 00:11:35.320 know what to say to her on the speege. How do you in direct 123 00:11:35.320 --> 00:11:39.039 with Dorothy who's thirty. This scares the but Jesus out of me. I 124 00:11:39.080 --> 00:11:46.960 mean, you've got a vision that that doesn't match. Well, it's happened 125 00:11:46.960 --> 00:11:58.360 that the Robert Stigwood Organization had we're producing Greece and another musical with the Beg's 126 00:12:00.200 --> 00:12:05.360 was going to be called Sergeant Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band. I've heard of 127 00:12:05.360 --> 00:12:13.679 the album, and and you've heard of the album and and and they flew 128 00:12:13.720 --> 00:12:18.039 me to New York and and and wanted me to talk with him about doing 129 00:12:18.080 --> 00:12:22.480 Sergeant Pepper, which I there was no greater fan of that album than me. 130 00:12:26.120 --> 00:12:30.120 But the but the script that they wanted to do, I just didn't 131 00:12:30.159 --> 00:12:35.039 get it. I was like, what it? It just didn't quite didn't 132 00:12:35.120 --> 00:12:41.919 quite gel in my mind. And and I, as politely as I could, 133 00:12:41.600 --> 00:12:46.039 you know, refused, you know, and said thank you very much, 134 00:12:46.080 --> 00:12:52.840 but I I just I don't get it. And but two weeks later, 135 00:12:52.480 --> 00:12:58.600 uh, the the then director of what was called Tribal Rights of the 136 00:12:58.679 --> 00:13:03.679 news, Saturday Night doesn't have the seam ring to it, does it? 137 00:13:03.840 --> 00:13:09.399 Not quite? But if we look at the New York magazine article that it 138 00:13:09.480 --> 00:13:13.720 was based on, that was the title, and nobody had come up with 139 00:13:13.799 --> 00:13:20.919 anything better except for calling it Saturday Night. And that was immediately confused with 140 00:13:22.000 --> 00:13:26.080 Saturday Night Live. So they said, well, we'll just put a pin 141 00:13:26.200 --> 00:13:33.559 in it and deal with this later. So anyway, the director of that 142 00:13:33.679 --> 00:13:41.159 film had a disagreement with Robert Stigwood, who was not a human being to 143 00:13:41.200 --> 00:13:46.840 ever disagree with because he was a tough old Australian. He wasn't that old 144 00:13:46.960 --> 00:13:50.279 either, But to me at the time, I think, oh my god, 145 00:13:50.320 --> 00:13:58.159 this guy's old. He might be forty years old. I wish I 146 00:13:58.200 --> 00:14:07.799 werefore he So suddenly I'm like the next guy to be called on the list. 147 00:14:05.919 --> 00:14:13.240 And I read this script and I had one hundred and two fever with 148 00:14:13.679 --> 00:14:20.360 from the flu in la at the time, and in the one hour that 149 00:14:20.399 --> 00:14:22.639 it took me to read the script, I was cured. It was like 150 00:14:24.440 --> 00:14:26.679 Jesus came and laid his hand on me and said, your cured. Your 151 00:14:26.679 --> 00:14:31.840 fever is gone. Your fever is gone because you've read this great script and 152 00:14:33.360 --> 00:14:37.720 it broke your fever. That's great. I'll tell you it was fabulous. 153 00:14:37.759 --> 00:14:43.720 And that was a Monday morning. By by Thursday morning, I was standing 154 00:14:43.840 --> 00:14:52.200 in New York starting to interview actors and talked to my new crew and told 155 00:14:52.279 --> 00:14:58.919 that I had two weeks before we start shooting. This is probably where having 156 00:15:00.080 --> 00:15:05.720 done all those TV movies of the Week, and everything paid off because unlike 157 00:15:05.799 --> 00:15:09.519 any normal human being, I didn't fall down in panic and have a heart 158 00:15:09.559 --> 00:15:13.120 attack because you were used to it. Yeah, I go, okay, 159 00:15:13.240 --> 00:15:18.080 two weeks, what's the catch? Uh So, Now, as far as 160 00:15:18.080 --> 00:15:22.600 the casting of Travolta, of John Travolta was, he he was just the 161 00:15:22.759 --> 00:15:24.759 guy on Welcome Back Conner at that time. He hadn't done Grease yet, 162 00:15:24.799 --> 00:15:33.679 right, that's right. And he had been already signed to do Grease because 163 00:15:33.840 --> 00:15:39.519 from the Welcome Back Cotter and from a TV movie called The Boy in the 164 00:15:39.519 --> 00:15:43.000 Plastic Bubble God. I remember that movie to you, and if I remember 165 00:15:43.120 --> 00:15:50.240 properly, I think he was in the Broadway Company of Greece. So so 166 00:15:50.320 --> 00:15:56.200 he had he had that experience. So the Stigwood organization signed John to three 167 00:15:58.000 --> 00:16:03.039 a three picture deal, got it, and Greece was to be the big 168 00:16:03.039 --> 00:16:10.399 one one to be found. And then somebody came up with this New York 169 00:16:10.480 --> 00:16:15.200 magazine article and said, how about this, that we could do this while 170 00:16:15.240 --> 00:16:19.720 we're waiting to start Greece because they had to wait for Olivia Newton. John 171 00:16:21.639 --> 00:16:26.919 had a very tough concert schedule at the time, and she said, well, 172 00:16:26.960 --> 00:16:33.879 I've got available from May to September or something like that. So they 173 00:16:33.919 --> 00:16:37.840 said, okay, between January and May, when we get Olivia Newton John, 174 00:16:37.919 --> 00:16:42.759 this is where we'll plug in this little movie called called Tribal Rights of 175 00:16:42.799 --> 00:16:48.440 the New Saturday Night. It was very much almost like an indie movie, 176 00:16:48.480 --> 00:16:51.519 and you did have a budget, but the way it was shot, I 177 00:16:51.559 --> 00:16:56.519 remember it so vividly, was very kind of in the streets and kind of 178 00:16:56.559 --> 00:17:00.440 gritty. And it was not a polished Hollywood movie by any stretch. No, 179 00:17:00.639 --> 00:17:03.640 And and it was part of the point was to make it as gritty 180 00:17:03.680 --> 00:17:10.480 as we could. I mean, never having been in Brooklyn in my life, 181 00:17:11.440 --> 00:17:17.240 I said, well, what if I were an English documentarian coming here, 182 00:17:18.000 --> 00:17:21.759 I would just you know, open my eyes and shoot everything that looks 183 00:17:21.799 --> 00:17:26.480 good and and and one of the appeals of the magazine article was the kind 184 00:17:26.480 --> 00:17:33.839 of gritty realism of this disco and the people and that that were in it. 185 00:17:36.240 --> 00:17:40.720 During the time I was prepping the very brief time, every every night 186 00:17:40.799 --> 00:17:45.640 I would go to some different disco in the middle of the night. There 187 00:17:45.640 --> 00:17:49.920 were yuppy discos, there were gay discos, there were lesbian discos there, 188 00:17:49.960 --> 00:17:56.160 you know, any any kind of preference you could think of, there was 189 00:17:56.200 --> 00:18:03.599 a disco for it. And and I quickly realized that that this little kind 190 00:18:03.599 --> 00:18:08.000 of hole in the wall disco in Brooklyn was very special. It was just 191 00:18:08.559 --> 00:18:15.000 you know, kind of lower middle class kids who were coming there, and 192 00:18:15.039 --> 00:18:22.599 you didn't really see any adults, and it was just the neighborhood. It 193 00:18:22.640 --> 00:18:26.680 was the neighborhood disco. And I remember, I remember those guys grow because 194 00:18:26.680 --> 00:18:30.200 I grew up in New York and I remember that time. And I remember, 195 00:18:30.839 --> 00:18:33.440 you know, cousins of mine. You know that that couldn't rupt two 196 00:18:33.519 --> 00:18:37.319 cents together. But when they got their clothes for not you know, Saturday 197 00:18:37.400 --> 00:18:41.039 night, you know, they were peacocky all over the place. Oh yeah, 198 00:18:41.359 --> 00:18:48.200 and and and so so it was clear that that we didn't want to 199 00:18:48.200 --> 00:18:53.400 go and glitz this up right, that it was not the kind of musical 200 00:18:53.559 --> 00:18:59.079 that that say, Greece was certainly going to be, which was much on 201 00:18:59.119 --> 00:19:03.000 a different, much more fun, romantic kind of scale. Sure, and 202 00:19:03.680 --> 00:19:08.319 and this should have a real grittiness to it. And the script itself, 203 00:19:10.000 --> 00:19:18.000 you know, had more uh profane language and racism and sexism, and you 204 00:19:18.039 --> 00:19:27.240 know, really reflected the culture of those neighborhoods. Uh, which which I 205 00:19:27.279 --> 00:19:33.240 would have proven to me every day because I would be talking to people on 206 00:19:33.279 --> 00:19:36.599 the street and extras and learn, you know, learning about the culture as 207 00:19:36.599 --> 00:19:41.519 we were going and finding out that, if anything, are our depiction of 208 00:19:41.559 --> 00:19:48.559 it was a bit mild. Wow. Now, now, how was it? 209 00:19:48.720 --> 00:19:52.039 You know, obviously when you guys were directing it, Yeah, I 210 00:19:52.079 --> 00:19:56.039 was. I remember we were talking off air about your assistant director, Alan 211 00:19:56.079 --> 00:20:00.359 Wertheim, who was a good friend of mine. We'll be right back after 212 00:20:00.359 --> 00:20:07.440 a word from our sponsor, and now back to the show. He told 213 00:20:07.480 --> 00:20:11.240 me a story that I think it was you or someone handed him the soundtrack 214 00:20:11.960 --> 00:20:15.119 to the movie and he took it home and he listened to it and he's 215 00:20:15.160 --> 00:20:19.440 like, this is never going to go anywhere. And his wife was the 216 00:20:19.440 --> 00:20:25.039 one that told him, you're an idiot. And then obviously it became this 217 00:20:25.559 --> 00:20:29.880 phenomenon. How what was it like being in the center of that storm? 218 00:20:29.960 --> 00:20:33.640 I mean, because you had directed literally a phenomenon. I mean, you 219 00:20:33.640 --> 00:20:37.279 couldn't go anywhere in the world without hearing that music and seeing those images that 220 00:20:37.319 --> 00:20:48.559 you shot. Yes, I mean the reaction to the soundtrack. Alan's experience 221 00:20:48.720 --> 00:20:53.319 wasn't you know it wasn't unusual. They gave me a you know, a 222 00:20:53.319 --> 00:20:59.240 little tape cassette with the beg's demos on it, which is probably what I 223 00:20:59.279 --> 00:21:03.000 gave to Alan, right, and and they were there were rough demos. 224 00:21:04.720 --> 00:21:08.759 And I think Paramount had listened to it and said, well, this is 225 00:21:08.799 --> 00:21:15.680 not even real disco, right, And and I and I think others, 226 00:21:15.759 --> 00:21:21.000 you know, we were dubious about it. But Robert Stigwood was a real 227 00:21:21.079 --> 00:21:25.680 champion. And he said, five songs on this cassette, three of them 228 00:21:25.680 --> 00:21:30.960 are number one hits at least, which I thought, Wow, that's pretty 229 00:21:30.559 --> 00:21:33.279 that's pretty arrogant. You know, how do you know what's going to be 230 00:21:33.279 --> 00:21:37.440 a number one hit? Right? Uh? He was wrong, of course. 231 00:21:38.000 --> 00:21:45.039 There were four number one hits someday and I don't know what happened to 232 00:21:45.119 --> 00:21:49.160 the fifth one, but it was probably number two. It was probably number 233 00:21:49.160 --> 00:21:52.519 two. That's that's right now. When you I mean but as a director, 234 00:21:52.640 --> 00:21:56.599 I mean, we all as directors hope to be involved with the project 235 00:21:56.599 --> 00:22:00.960 that gets this kind of attention. What was it like getting the spotlight thrown 236 00:22:02.000 --> 00:22:07.000 on you? I'm assuming some opportunities opened up after the movie. Yes, 237 00:22:07.119 --> 00:22:11.519 of course, the first the Hollywood. First reaction was to poop hoood, 238 00:22:11.680 --> 00:22:18.440 of course, because they had just they were just totally shocked by all of 239 00:22:18.480 --> 00:22:22.000 the negative parts of it, you know, especially the language and the sexism. 240 00:22:22.480 --> 00:22:29.119 And I actually got fired from a movie the day after we ran at 241 00:22:29.119 --> 00:22:36.000 the big Hollywood screening. Picture got put in turnaround seven point thirty in the 242 00:22:36.000 --> 00:22:40.880 morning, I'm going to New York to the New York opening, and I 243 00:22:40.920 --> 00:22:45.279 get a phone call, you know, telling me that the show I was 244 00:22:45.319 --> 00:22:52.720 working on is now in turnaround because the head of the studio saw the movie 245 00:22:52.839 --> 00:22:56.319 last night and doesn't want anything to do with the director. Who would you 246 00:22:56.359 --> 00:23:03.759 know, produce that till the box off as comes in. And yeah, 247 00:23:03.799 --> 00:23:07.799 the box office came, but they never changed their mind. Yeah, that 248 00:23:08.200 --> 00:23:17.519 movie eventually got made, but not not with me. Sure, so yes, 249 00:23:17.599 --> 00:23:22.279 it was crazy. The opening night in Los Angeles, as I was 250 00:23:22.319 --> 00:23:30.240 coming back from New York, I drove by the Village Theater in Westwood just 251 00:23:30.240 --> 00:23:33.480 to you know, take a look see what the marquee looked like. And 252 00:23:34.759 --> 00:23:38.440 I see a line at the box office. This is about ten thirty at 253 00:23:38.559 --> 00:23:45.880 night that our plane got in and and I drive around the block and the 254 00:23:45.920 --> 00:23:51.319 line keeps going and going and going, goes all the way around the block 255 00:23:51.400 --> 00:23:56.279 of this big theater. And this is for the twelve o'clock show. Wow. 256 00:23:59.480 --> 00:24:04.200 And I walked into the walked into the lobby and all the paramount execs 257 00:24:04.240 --> 00:24:08.960 were standing in there, grown men, jumping up and down like little kids. 258 00:24:11.680 --> 00:24:15.519 All these aw was dollar signs of course, and of course went on 259 00:24:15.599 --> 00:24:19.480 to be an extremely huge it. It did. The little neighborhood theater near 260 00:24:19.519 --> 00:24:26.640 me in Studio City had it in their theater for six months. Wow. 261 00:24:26.680 --> 00:24:30.039 Back when you could do that, you could do that? That was like, 262 00:24:30.880 --> 00:24:33.960 I mean, we were kind of following Star Wars in a lot of 263 00:24:34.079 --> 00:24:41.960 markets and were replacing Star Wars because I knew that as I was checking theaters, 264 00:24:41.319 --> 00:24:47.119 they'd usually not have a print of Saturday Night Fever yet, but they 265 00:24:47.839 --> 00:24:49.319 would put up the you know, a reel of Star Wars, and I'd 266 00:24:49.319 --> 00:24:55.319 look at it and check the sound and so on. Wow. Now, 267 00:24:55.480 --> 00:24:59.240 let me ask you a question when you approach how do you approach directing a 268 00:24:59.319 --> 00:25:00.880 scene in general, Like when you're going to go into a scene, what 269 00:25:02.000 --> 00:25:07.640 is your thought process? What is your in your process in general? Well, 270 00:25:11.319 --> 00:25:15.240 there's usually about a dozen questions that I that I have to ask, 271 00:25:15.359 --> 00:25:22.920 which is, what's what's different at what have we learned? What's different at 272 00:25:22.960 --> 00:25:26.240 the end of the scene? From the beginning? You know, what? 273 00:25:26.240 --> 00:25:30.200 What were the characters in the scene? What did what did they want? 274 00:25:30.319 --> 00:25:33.920 What does one character want and what does the other character want. Let's say 275 00:25:33.920 --> 00:25:38.079 there's two people in the scene. Hopefully they're opposed to each other. They're 276 00:25:38.079 --> 00:25:42.599 not just all agreeing. You know, there's a there's there's some kind of 277 00:25:42.640 --> 00:25:47.759 conflict. So I'm always looking for, you know, where's the conflict in 278 00:25:47.799 --> 00:25:52.799 here? What's interesting? What what in the course of the conflict causes something 279 00:25:52.839 --> 00:25:56.440 to change from the beginning to the end of the scene. You know, 280 00:25:56.559 --> 00:26:03.440 I ask whose point of view is this scene? Is it this character or 281 00:26:03.480 --> 00:26:07.039 this character? You know, are we rooting for for anybody in particular? 282 00:26:08.359 --> 00:26:14.640 And then and then finally I'm asking, Okay, these guys have goals. 283 00:26:15.359 --> 00:26:18.880 A guy a guy wants to take a girl out for coffee, and she 284 00:26:18.960 --> 00:26:22.839 doesn't know if she likes this guy or not, so that his goal is 285 00:26:22.880 --> 00:26:26.119 to talk her into going for coffee, and her goal is, you know, 286 00:26:26.240 --> 00:26:32.279 to kind of politely slide out of it, you know, and you 287 00:26:32.359 --> 00:26:36.279 know, there can be a fun scene there, you know. And how 288 00:26:36.279 --> 00:26:40.799 does he go about it? Is he is he aggressive like a you know, 289 00:26:40.839 --> 00:26:42.799 a real macho guy would be. Or is he a kind of nerdy 290 00:26:42.839 --> 00:26:48.119 guy who's kind of embarrassed, but he's really excited about this girl and he 291 00:26:48.200 --> 00:26:52.240 really wants to, you know, take her, so he overcomes his shyness. 292 00:26:52.880 --> 00:26:56.839 So so as you just start to pull it apart. Asking these different 293 00:26:56.960 --> 00:27:02.799 questions, you you pretty quick develop a point of view on the scene. 294 00:27:03.160 --> 00:27:07.039 Very cool. Now what do you do when you're not getting the performance you 295 00:27:07.119 --> 00:27:17.559 want out of an actor? Well, usually I'm trying to help them and 296 00:27:17.599 --> 00:27:19.359 sit, you know, go and say, now, what are you playing 297 00:27:19.440 --> 00:27:23.279 here? What are you trying to get? What's your goal here? And 298 00:27:26.799 --> 00:27:33.400 and usually a lot of the problem is that they haven't focused on that. 299 00:27:33.039 --> 00:27:37.119 They say, well, you know, when I was a kid, my 300 00:27:37.279 --> 00:27:41.240 dad used to you know, yell at me, and it made me wet 301 00:27:41.319 --> 00:27:44.119 my bed. And I said, no, I don't want to hear this. 302 00:27:45.480 --> 00:27:49.359 I want to know what are you doing right now? Well, I, 303 00:27:51.039 --> 00:27:55.319 you know, and I've got to focus them on what they're trying to 304 00:27:55.359 --> 00:28:00.920 do. And I and I'm really tough about making them come up with the 305 00:28:00.960 --> 00:28:06.039 answer. I can go, and it's easy for me to go and tell 306 00:28:06.079 --> 00:28:10.680 them. Now, you know, persuade this girl, you know, charm 307 00:28:10.759 --> 00:28:15.680 her into going. I can do that. But the more I can make 308 00:28:15.880 --> 00:28:19.200 I can help an actor come up with stuff themselves, the you know, 309 00:28:19.279 --> 00:28:26.079 the better they're going to be. That makes perfect sense. Now, do 310 00:28:26.119 --> 00:28:30.759 you have any advice for dealing with difficult actors or difficult department heads on a 311 00:28:30.759 --> 00:28:33.519 set, which I'm sure you've had to deal with at one point or another 312 00:28:33.559 --> 00:28:45.200 in your life. Absolutely every every department and and a cameraman, let's say, 313 00:28:45.279 --> 00:28:48.680 comes up to me and I say, here, here, here's the 314 00:28:48.720 --> 00:28:52.559 shot I was thinking about doing, and and he goes, well, I 315 00:28:52.599 --> 00:28:57.519 don't know, I don't, I don't I don't like that that shot. 316 00:29:00.240 --> 00:29:06.519 There's uh, there's a lot of ways to deal with this, which is, 317 00:29:07.039 --> 00:29:10.759 no, this is what we're going to do, and you know, 318 00:29:10.960 --> 00:29:15.000 let's let's make it work that way, and you can get into a big 319 00:29:15.119 --> 00:29:18.079 argument, or the guy goes, oh, okay, all right, fine, 320 00:29:18.759 --> 00:29:23.400 which is the last time you'll ever get any you know, good creative 321 00:29:23.400 --> 00:29:30.519 contribution from that camera in and or it's just going to be, you know, 322 00:29:30.640 --> 00:29:33.359 a war between the two of you for the rest of the shoot. 323 00:29:33.319 --> 00:29:37.519 I look at the guy and go, oh, that's interesting. Tell me 324 00:29:37.599 --> 00:29:41.599 about it, tell me what do you think. And he says, well, 325 00:29:41.640 --> 00:29:44.759 you know this that, And the next thing he said, Oh great, 326 00:29:44.839 --> 00:29:48.119 tell me more I had. I never thought of it that way, 327 00:29:48.200 --> 00:29:53.559 And even if it's the worst idea in the world, we'll be right back 328 00:29:53.680 --> 00:30:03.720 after a word from our sponsor out back to the show. That's why, 329 00:30:03.960 --> 00:30:07.519 you know, saying something like I never thought of it that way is not 330 00:30:07.680 --> 00:30:14.440 judgmental. It's just kind of letting him expound on it in the course of 331 00:30:14.480 --> 00:30:18.200 that, And it could work this way with an actor, with a costume 332 00:30:18.279 --> 00:30:25.720 designer, with an editor. In the course of that, I'm learning what 333 00:30:25.920 --> 00:30:32.880 point of view that that person has on what we're talking about, and I'm 334 00:30:33.039 --> 00:30:36.920 and I'm hearing them, and I'm also getting them, giving them a chance 335 00:30:37.440 --> 00:30:44.240 to kind of vent whatever feelings they have, and I'm not overriding them. 336 00:30:44.480 --> 00:30:48.279 And it doesn't mean that I'm letting him push me over either. I'm just 337 00:30:48.519 --> 00:30:56.839 I'm just listening and doing what what some people call active listening, where you're 338 00:30:56.880 --> 00:31:02.519 just kind of feeding Oh, that's interesting. So you think that that this 339 00:31:02.519 --> 00:31:07.880 this shot is into the back light and you can't you can't light, you 340 00:31:07.920 --> 00:31:12.200 can't compensate for that. Yeah, well that's kind of what I was thinking. 341 00:31:12.720 --> 00:31:15.599 So what do you think? What do you think we should do? 342 00:31:15.720 --> 00:31:19.480 How would you do it? So with an actor, if an actor says 343 00:31:19.480 --> 00:31:23.400 well, I think I should be over here and I think should try this, 344 00:31:23.839 --> 00:31:26.680 I go, well, let's try it. My answer to them is 345 00:31:26.759 --> 00:31:32.799 usually yes, let's go. Let's try it, because I know that if 346 00:31:32.839 --> 00:31:40.559 I let that person try it, that their sense of professionalism and their creative 347 00:31:40.559 --> 00:31:45.119 instincts as an actor, it's going to start to ring alarm bells when it 348 00:31:45.160 --> 00:31:48.839 doesn't work when they try it, when they say, oh, to be 349 00:31:48.920 --> 00:31:53.359 over here, because the scenes scenes have a dramatic logic that it's hard to 350 00:31:53.400 --> 00:32:00.640 buck right and if you go and you try some weird adaptation to the scene, 351 00:32:00.839 --> 00:32:06.319 it'll tell you, no, this doesn't feel right. But the actor, 352 00:32:06.400 --> 00:32:10.440 having tried it first of all, is more willing to try it your 353 00:32:10.480 --> 00:32:15.319 way, and you know, say well, let's do it both ways, 354 00:32:15.920 --> 00:32:22.000 or he'll actually realize that it's you know, that his idea didn't work, 355 00:32:22.960 --> 00:32:27.480 or miracle of miracles, it's a great idea and only by trying it, 356 00:32:27.799 --> 00:32:31.200 did you say, oh my god, I would have missed an opportunity here 357 00:32:31.640 --> 00:32:38.000 right by me. And I've had that happen any number of times, where 358 00:32:38.039 --> 00:32:43.720 an actor comes up with an idea and I go, oh no, it's 359 00:32:43.799 --> 00:32:49.920 side my head. I try to follow this little method that I just outlined 360 00:32:49.960 --> 00:32:52.440 for you and go, oh my god, oh oh, that's great, 361 00:32:52.480 --> 00:32:57.839 we would have missed something here. Well, thank you Bill to the actor 362 00:32:59.319 --> 00:33:01.240 now. But that I mean, there's not a lot you can do. 363 00:33:01.279 --> 00:33:07.720 On the other hand, with actors that are, you know, showing up 364 00:33:07.480 --> 00:33:15.519 a drunk or high sure or just basically unprofessional, really untalented, that you 365 00:33:15.519 --> 00:33:23.480 you made a mistake in casting, and that's that's when more radical solutions are 366 00:33:23.480 --> 00:33:29.319 called for, Like you know, can you can you change? Can you 367 00:33:29.400 --> 00:33:32.920 change the actor? If you can't, how do you how do you disguise 368 00:33:34.039 --> 00:33:37.000 them? You know, hide them behind other people, shoot over their shoulder? 369 00:33:37.599 --> 00:33:42.160 Uh? Two, Yeah, there's there's a little tricks here, and 370 00:33:42.400 --> 00:33:45.599 it's away from them. But let me ask you something though, And I've 371 00:33:45.599 --> 00:33:49.160 had this happen to me on set, and I'm sure it's happened to you, 372 00:33:49.319 --> 00:33:53.160 not recently probably, but when you were first starting out where actors and 373 00:33:53.240 --> 00:34:00.960 department ads as well, but more experienced actors will test you on the first 374 00:34:00.079 --> 00:34:07.559 day to see if they're safe with you. And is that true? Absolutely, 375 00:34:07.720 --> 00:34:09.760 of course yeah, And how do you deal and how do you deal 376 00:34:09.800 --> 00:34:16.960 with that? And so I'm it's it's tricky because you know, I'm trying 377 00:34:16.960 --> 00:34:22.199 to pay attention. I'm trying to be prepared, but I'm also trying to 378 00:34:22.239 --> 00:34:28.039 be interested in what they're bringing to it. If if I look like I'm 379 00:34:28.079 --> 00:34:35.280 paying more attention to the camera and the lenses than their performance, that they're 380 00:34:35.320 --> 00:34:39.800 going to register that right away, you know, because you get to the 381 00:34:39.880 --> 00:34:45.920 end of a scene and call cut and the camera operator goes no good. 382 00:34:46.519 --> 00:34:52.719 The actor immediately thinks that's about them, that they're no good, whereas actually 383 00:34:52.760 --> 00:34:58.159 the camera operator saw a coffee cup on the ground in the background and it 384 00:34:58.199 --> 00:35:05.719 shouldn't have been there, right, So I'm always paying attention to the actor 385 00:35:05.800 --> 00:35:12.000 and going over to I go over to every actor after every take, and 386 00:35:12.880 --> 00:35:16.320 just even if it just pat them on the shoulder or nod my head or 387 00:35:16.440 --> 00:35:21.039 your thumbs up, or say you're on a good path, or give them 388 00:35:21.320 --> 00:35:27.239 a little direction, they know I'm paying attention because I'm trying to, you 389 00:35:27.280 --> 00:35:31.400 know, build some trust, and building trust with an actor is, as 390 00:35:31.440 --> 00:35:36.519 you say, very difficult. I started six point thirty in the morning, 391 00:35:37.000 --> 00:35:40.039 going in the makeup trailer, saying, you know, good morning to them 392 00:35:40.079 --> 00:35:45.079 as they're in the chair, and how are you thinking about today's work and 393 00:35:45.599 --> 00:35:50.400 are there any problems I can help you with things like that, just to 394 00:35:50.480 --> 00:35:54.519 start building building trust before we ever get on the stage. It's a lot 395 00:35:54.599 --> 00:35:59.679 to do with psychology as well on that on the set, and that's something 396 00:35:59.719 --> 00:36:01.360 they don't teach you at film school. They don't teach you the psychology of 397 00:36:01.400 --> 00:36:08.320 the film set. Well, I try to where I teach at Chapman. 398 00:36:08.519 --> 00:36:15.800 Sure. Uh, And that's that's a big part of it. And at 399 00:36:15.840 --> 00:36:21.840 the risk of plugging my own stuff, my two books are dealing you know, 400 00:36:21.960 --> 00:36:28.360 dealing with with problematic actors and building trust. What are the name of 401 00:36:28.360 --> 00:36:31.639 the books? Please plug away? Okay, Well, John Bathamon directing. 402 00:36:32.559 --> 00:36:38.280 Uh, it wasn't my idea for that title, but okay, and and 403 00:36:38.280 --> 00:36:45.159 and and my first book which is called I'll Be in My Trailer, which 404 00:36:45.320 --> 00:36:47.639 is something you often hear from, you know, from an actor. You're 405 00:36:47.679 --> 00:36:53.400 having an argument with I'll be in my trailer, call my agent all my 406 00:36:53.480 --> 00:36:59.000 age. Yes, that could be, that could be the sequel exactly. 407 00:36:59.159 --> 00:37:00.400 Well, we'll make you to put links to those books in the in the 408 00:37:00.400 --> 00:37:06.639 show notes of the of the show. Now you've worked with I mean over 409 00:37:06.639 --> 00:37:09.639 the course of your career. I mean the the amount of different legends and 410 00:37:09.800 --> 00:37:15.159 movie stars and and just talent is amazing. If you look over the scope 411 00:37:15.199 --> 00:37:20.159 of your career, how do you direct a movie star? How do you 412 00:37:20.280 --> 00:37:24.280 direct a legend? You know, as a younger director coming up, what 413 00:37:24.280 --> 00:37:28.639 what do you or even if if you're on the same too, like you 414 00:37:28.679 --> 00:37:32.559 know that there's different egos involved, there's different personas involved. How do you, 415 00:37:32.920 --> 00:37:37.920 like, how do you direct a Mel Gibson and a Goldie hawn In 416 00:37:37.920 --> 00:37:40.800 burn on a wire when both of them were arguably at the peak of their 417 00:37:40.840 --> 00:37:45.320 stardom. They were in that area of the peak of their stardom, they 418 00:37:45.320 --> 00:37:47.840 were giant movie stars. How do you how do you direct people like that? 419 00:37:50.719 --> 00:38:00.800 Well? Uh, I think it's it's hard because because they're intimidating uh 420 00:38:00.199 --> 00:38:07.320 people, They're they're bringing so much experience uh to to the set, and 421 00:38:07.320 --> 00:38:14.960 and they they deserve respect they've earned the respect and and and I think they 422 00:38:15.039 --> 00:38:20.239 become your creative partners. To treat them in any other way it was a 423 00:38:20.280 --> 00:38:25.559 big, big mistake. And we sat with with Goldie on and with mel 424 00:38:27.320 --> 00:38:32.800 for uh quite a while several times during the preparation of that of that movie, 425 00:38:34.079 --> 00:38:37.440 you know, listening to their thoughts about the characters and the scenes and 426 00:38:37.480 --> 00:38:44.079 what works and and both of them are very very smart people with with good 427 00:38:44.159 --> 00:38:51.199 insights. And my my partner Rob Cohen and I, you know, spend 428 00:38:51.239 --> 00:38:55.000 a lot of time listening carefully, uh to what they had to say and 429 00:38:55.079 --> 00:39:02.280 taking taking advantage of it. It's it's not the kind of thing where it's 430 00:39:02.280 --> 00:39:10.760 a one man a one man show like well, I can't think of think 431 00:39:10.800 --> 00:39:17.639 of a good example where where it's all about the director. But but here, 432 00:39:17.880 --> 00:39:24.079 you know, as you know in many star driven vehicles, you know, 433 00:39:24.159 --> 00:39:29.800 you want their chemistry. You want to create a chemistry and foster a 434 00:39:29.880 --> 00:39:36.800 chemistry between them, and and it's a comedy also, so uh, you're 435 00:39:36.840 --> 00:39:42.000 looking for them to come to work in this in as happy and and and 436 00:39:42.159 --> 00:39:46.159 uh and up a mood as possible, because that's going to reflect in all 437 00:39:46.239 --> 00:39:52.760 of your scenes and if people are not happy. That really reflects I mean, 438 00:39:52.760 --> 00:39:55.920 you can tell it. We as an audience can go We'll be right 439 00:39:55.960 --> 00:40:02.679 back after a word from our sponsor. And now back to the show. 440 00:40:05.440 --> 00:40:08.480 There's no chemistry here, Oh my god, We've seen I've seen movies like 441 00:40:08.480 --> 00:40:13.880 that with big movie stars you could just tell had absolutely no chemistry and had 442 00:40:13.880 --> 00:40:16.639 no business being on the screen together, or that they hated each other off 443 00:40:16.639 --> 00:40:20.199 see each other. Yeah, they hate each other. And you can tell 444 00:40:20.239 --> 00:40:24.400 it. It just smells from from the screen, and it and and and 445 00:40:24.440 --> 00:40:28.360 it smells the opposite way too. When there is that chemistry, when there 446 00:40:28.400 --> 00:40:31.159 is that enjoyment, it spills right off the screen. Of course. Now, 447 00:40:31.400 --> 00:40:37.679 of course, now when you've directed some uh just amazing action films in 448 00:40:37.719 --> 00:40:40.800 the course of your career, in your opinion, what makes a good action 449 00:40:40.960 --> 00:40:51.400 sequence, Well, uh, generally there has to there has to be something 450 00:40:51.400 --> 00:40:57.760 where you're really involved the character, the main the main characters have really strong 451 00:40:57.880 --> 00:41:07.079 opposing goals and and something becomes action when normal conversation just doesn't make it anymore. 452 00:41:07.679 --> 00:41:13.320 You you know, it's gotten to the point where people have to get 453 00:41:13.320 --> 00:41:16.480 into a fight, they have to do a chase, you know, so 454 00:41:19.159 --> 00:41:23.519 words don't happen anymore, but they're people pressing their goals. And the trick 455 00:41:23.719 --> 00:41:28.920 is, now, if you're if you're in, let's just say something as 456 00:41:28.920 --> 00:41:34.840 simple as a car chase. What are the things that happened during that chase, 457 00:41:34.920 --> 00:41:40.079 the different events that happen that start to get more and more exciting and 458 00:41:40.280 --> 00:41:46.960 build. It can't just be the stage coach comes by, and then the 459 00:41:46.960 --> 00:41:51.639 Indians are chasing it, and they come by. Then the stage coach comes 460 00:41:51.639 --> 00:41:54.719 by, then the Indians come by. It's things have to be happening. 461 00:41:57.079 --> 00:42:02.039 The Indians have to be trying to stop the stage coach and uh jumping onto 462 00:42:02.079 --> 00:42:07.559 the lead horses to stop it, and the and the the guy up on 463 00:42:07.639 --> 00:42:10.519 top of the stage coach is trying to shoot the guy who jumped on the 464 00:42:10.519 --> 00:42:15.679 horses, right, And so you get through that. Now you've got to 465 00:42:15.679 --> 00:42:22.360 come up with something that's even bigger and uh and keep keep a good action 466 00:42:22.519 --> 00:42:28.000 sequence alive with with one one event after another. So when you look at 467 00:42:28.039 --> 00:42:34.000 the great classic scenes that by one I'm describing is from John Ford's Stage Coach, 468 00:42:34.920 --> 00:42:38.480 Uh, you know you can jump ahead to bullet or the French connection, 469 00:42:39.639 --> 00:42:45.079 and and and see, Oh my god, we are so concerned about 470 00:42:45.239 --> 00:42:51.639 the jeopardy that Gene Ackman is in chasing this subway tray under underneath the l 471 00:42:52.480 --> 00:42:59.079 We're frightened to death because we know how scary that is, and and and 472 00:42:59.079 --> 00:43:02.400 and he's almost hitting other people. But we wanted to catch up with that 473 00:43:02.559 --> 00:43:07.199 subway train that's getting away. And I heard its specificly, Brian. Oh 474 00:43:07.239 --> 00:43:12.239 no, I've studied that sequence, and from what I've read and heard that 475 00:43:13.079 --> 00:43:16.920 they were really driving at like seventy miles an hour during that situation, like 476 00:43:16.960 --> 00:43:21.159 it was a real thing. I mean, I know they had stunned people 477 00:43:21.199 --> 00:43:23.760 and stuff like that, but it wasn't like they blocked off blocks and blocks 478 00:43:23.760 --> 00:43:27.960 and blocks. I heard that they were like just really driving and yeah, 479 00:43:28.039 --> 00:43:32.440 it was very scary, right, Yeah, they were Bill Bill Hickman, 480 00:43:32.519 --> 00:43:37.159 who was the driver on that. You know, they'd go out at six 481 00:43:37.199 --> 00:43:39.599 in the morning and just take off and oh my god, it's terrifying. 482 00:43:39.920 --> 00:43:43.519 And you could get it on screen, and you got it on and you 483 00:43:43.559 --> 00:43:46.440 got it on film. It was amazing that sequence. Anyone listening, if 484 00:43:46.440 --> 00:43:50.599 you have not seen The French Connection, please stop listening to this podcast and 485 00:43:50.639 --> 00:43:58.039 go watch the French connection. Now what any advice on working with younger or 486 00:43:58.159 --> 00:44:07.039 less experienced casts, He's it's the same whether it's whether it's children or or 487 00:44:07.159 --> 00:44:14.039 young adults. I mean with with children that the biggest trick is casting it 488 00:44:14.159 --> 00:44:16.679 right in the first place. I mean, that's that's easy to say. 489 00:44:16.800 --> 00:44:22.320 But if you haven't cast it right in the first place. With a child 490 00:44:22.360 --> 00:44:28.039 who's got an imagination, who's relaxed, who's not intimidated, and who will 491 00:44:28.079 --> 00:44:35.079 listen to you, you're you're in terrible trouble. But if you've got a 492 00:44:35.159 --> 00:44:44.719 child that hasn't has an imagination, you can almost turn them loose. I 493 00:44:45.000 --> 00:44:50.880 had a conversation with Robert Mulligan, who directed to Kill a Mockingbird, And 494 00:44:51.400 --> 00:44:54.719 I said, how did you deal with these children? And and he said, 495 00:44:54.800 --> 00:44:58.880 I cast them right in the first place. I just kind of put 496 00:44:58.960 --> 00:45:04.880 them in situations and and and give them a little idea of what was happening 497 00:45:04.880 --> 00:45:10.480 in the scene, and just let them go and and and their their imagination 498 00:45:10.719 --> 00:45:20.320 took over. So of course he spent uh, Bob Mulligan and Alan Pecula 499 00:45:20.400 --> 00:45:24.159 spent over six months trying to find those children in the first place, right, 500 00:45:24.559 --> 00:45:28.960 you know, they they looked and looked and looked all over the country. 501 00:45:30.000 --> 00:45:34.639 So that's, you know, part of the thing. You it's easy 502 00:45:34.679 --> 00:45:37.880 if you can, if you can get Mel Gibson to come and be in 503 00:45:37.920 --> 00:45:44.440 your movie, or you know, a big star, you know, most 504 00:45:44.440 --> 00:45:47.800 of the work is being done for you by that person. Right. Yeah, 505 00:45:47.840 --> 00:45:52.400 So I forgot who said it, but was it casting as ninety percent 506 00:45:52.440 --> 00:45:55.519 of directing or something along those lines. Well, I think it was Elijah 507 00:45:55.559 --> 00:46:00.400 Kazan Uh, Who's who said it? And and my question always was, 508 00:46:00.840 --> 00:46:04.559 yeah, now how do you get that other ten percent? And you get 509 00:46:04.599 --> 00:46:08.320 something? But tell us about that thing? Now. I wanted to ask 510 00:46:08.360 --> 00:46:13.440 you about one of my favorite movies that you've done, A short Circuit. 511 00:46:13.880 --> 00:46:17.519 How did you direct that robot on set? How did that work? I 512 00:46:17.519 --> 00:46:21.920 mean, the technical aspects of that must have been. You must have pulled 513 00:46:21.920 --> 00:46:24.719 your hair out, because I'm assuming it didn't work. All the time we 514 00:46:24.840 --> 00:46:34.400 had. Most movie stars have some kind of a nice trailer. Number five 515 00:46:35.199 --> 00:46:43.159 had an eighteen wheeler that was all his. It was filled with different versions 516 00:46:43.199 --> 00:46:46.199 of him, big versions, little versions, versions that went left, versions 517 00:46:46.280 --> 00:46:57.239 that went right, puppeteered versions, miniature versions to drop off Bridges and a 518 00:46:57.360 --> 00:47:01.679 full time twenty four to seven, a special effects crew that kept him running. 519 00:47:04.199 --> 00:47:09.159 I mean, he was our uh star, our Eddie Murphy. Uh 520 00:47:10.199 --> 00:47:16.320 he was our comedy guy, the star. And Steve Gutenberg and Alie Sheety 521 00:47:16.400 --> 00:47:22.440 God bless their hearts. Uh knew that and knew they knew where their place 522 00:47:22.559 --> 00:47:27.000 was in the movie. That's okay. You know, we're here to support 523 00:47:27.079 --> 00:47:32.119 Number five. Uh. And and I made everybody treat him like we had 524 00:47:32.239 --> 00:47:36.480 Eddie Murphy. You know, I'd go on the set in the morning when 525 00:47:36.599 --> 00:47:39.599 when the guys would bring him out, I'd go over and give him, 526 00:47:39.920 --> 00:47:45.719 give him a hug, and start talking to him because we always had one 527 00:47:45.760 --> 00:47:52.840 puppeteer that was the voice of Number five, and and so he would be 528 00:47:52.920 --> 00:47:59.239 talking back. And you know, it's it's real easy with with creatures like 529 00:47:59.280 --> 00:48:01.960 that to begin to believe they're real. Yeah, I'm sure. I'm sure. 530 00:48:02.000 --> 00:48:06.480 When if you were talking to Frank Oz on the set of Empire Strikes 531 00:48:06.519 --> 00:48:10.000 Back, eventually you just started looking at Yoda like it's Yoda. Yeah, 532 00:48:10.119 --> 00:48:15.880 It's it's Yoda. And and you know, thank goodness, we didn't have 533 00:48:17.679 --> 00:48:23.280 any huge mechanical breakdowns because the guys were so worked so hard to make sure 534 00:48:23.360 --> 00:48:30.880 he was operating all the time and doing crazy impossible things like he looks at 535 00:48:30.920 --> 00:48:36.159 a grasshopper in one scene and watches the grasshopper jump, and then a full 536 00:48:36.239 --> 00:48:40.159 size, six foot tall Number five starts hopping like a grasshopper. I saw 537 00:48:40.199 --> 00:48:45.559 that. And that was before visual like high end visual effects. Oh listen, 538 00:48:45.599 --> 00:48:50.239 this is all mechanical, yeah, visual effects, special effects. Yeah, 539 00:48:50.320 --> 00:48:54.039 it was knocked out. How he flipped a coin like like, oh 540 00:48:54.119 --> 00:49:00.079 yeah, I remember, like James Cagney right, flipping a coin, and 541 00:49:00.159 --> 00:49:04.719 and that was all stuff we had to do for real because there was no 542 00:49:04.920 --> 00:49:09.599 CGI, right, It was all all practical. You could do simple match 543 00:49:09.599 --> 00:49:15.440 shots and and very simple things like put in a sunset or something like that. 544 00:49:15.360 --> 00:49:20.440 But to do what we do today, no way, not even close. 545 00:49:20.760 --> 00:49:22.639 And I remember when that came out that was a monster hit as well. 546 00:49:22.679 --> 00:49:28.400 That was another big hit when it came out. I'd loved it. 547 00:49:28.599 --> 00:49:34.440 I love that movie. It was I have I have Number five, a 548 00:49:34.519 --> 00:49:40.159 small version of Number five in my office. See that's awesome. Now one 549 00:49:40.199 --> 00:49:44.719 other movie that you did that I want to talk to you about. How 550 00:49:44.760 --> 00:49:49.840 did you approach directing a remake of a movie like lethem Nikita, with the 551 00:49:49.880 --> 00:49:53.880 movie point in no return, How does the director approach a remake of somebody 552 00:49:53.920 --> 00:50:02.480 else's work. We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor, and 553 00:50:02.519 --> 00:50:07.199 now back to the show. And how do you put your own twist on 554 00:50:07.239 --> 00:50:10.760 it and be faithful to the original material. I've always wanted to know how 555 00:50:10.800 --> 00:50:16.039 you were able to bring it, bring it to life. I so loved 556 00:50:16.280 --> 00:50:23.000 lefem Nikita when I saw it, and it was in a very small theater 557 00:50:23.199 --> 00:50:30.199 in Los Angeles. Uh. And and you know, I know that it's 558 00:50:30.239 --> 00:50:37.400 often hard to get people to go and see subtitled movies, and and I 559 00:50:37.519 --> 00:50:42.159 and I walked out of that and I said to my wife, you know 560 00:50:42.280 --> 00:50:45.840 this, this would make a great American version. Uh. You know, 561 00:50:45.960 --> 00:50:52.079 it's such an amazing story. And I just don't think, you know, 562 00:50:52.239 --> 00:50:55.079 anybody's going to see it because we're seeing it in this nice little theater. 563 00:50:55.800 --> 00:51:00.159 But you know, it was a little multiplex with fourteen theaters, and it 564 00:51:00.280 --> 00:51:07.559 was in the smallest one of the fourteen. And I think I think during 565 00:51:07.599 --> 00:51:16.599 off hours that theatre doubled as a phone booth. My brother observed it. 566 00:51:16.679 --> 00:51:21.840 He's seen he'd seen more people in the seven eleven at three in the morning. 567 00:51:22.199 --> 00:51:27.920 Right then, we're in this movie theater. So I also said to 568 00:51:28.000 --> 00:51:30.920 her, if I'm thinking of this at the point this in the theater, 569 00:51:30.559 --> 00:51:35.960 somebody else has got this idea, and somebody owns this. I bet somebody 570 00:51:35.960 --> 00:51:39.480 has already bought this. Sure enough, Warner Brothers had bought it, or 571 00:51:39.599 --> 00:51:45.280 Luke Bisson to direct an American version of it, an American version, and 572 00:51:45.320 --> 00:51:50.719 he was going to come over and do an American version of it, and 573 00:51:50.719 --> 00:51:54.679 and I and I shrugged my shoulders and went, well, too late. 574 00:51:54.719 --> 00:52:00.320 I should have been earlier. And then Lucassan woke up one day and went, 575 00:52:00.159 --> 00:52:04.840 I got other things to do. I've already done this. I don't 576 00:52:04.840 --> 00:52:10.599 need to do this again. And that's somebody else. So then they they 577 00:52:10.639 --> 00:52:15.239 came to me. And now our goal is how can we do an adaptation 578 00:52:16.199 --> 00:52:22.440 of it without making, you know, with making something that is more American 579 00:52:22.519 --> 00:52:28.199 than and uh fresh and and keep the spirit of it. It's kind of 580 00:52:28.199 --> 00:52:37.280 difficult, but that's what we We went to writers uh who were character writers, 581 00:52:37.320 --> 00:52:44.960 not not plot writer, and and that, and I thought it's all 582 00:52:45.000 --> 00:52:50.440 going to be about her character. And and how that how that works for 583 00:52:50.519 --> 00:52:54.639 us because we've got a very strong story here. We don't need more plot. 584 00:52:55.559 --> 00:53:00.599 What we need is people, you know, characters that that we can 585 00:53:00.639 --> 00:53:09.119 identify with. And that was that was our approach. And and it came 586 00:53:09.199 --> 00:53:16.559 up with the idea of using for the soundtrack, using Nina Simone as as 587 00:53:16.559 --> 00:53:24.800 a touchstone for her. Uh that that her songs and her kind of female 588 00:53:24.880 --> 00:53:31.679 rebellion that Nina Simone sang about was was something that would that would be interesting 589 00:53:31.719 --> 00:53:38.000 in helping, you know, helping this character. So you actually brought it 590 00:53:38.000 --> 00:53:44.719 to life because of your love for it, right that was And I lobbied 591 00:53:44.760 --> 00:53:50.880 hard, you know, to get that to get that job because I did 592 00:53:50.960 --> 00:53:54.760 really really love it and and loved the character and loved all the characters. 593 00:53:55.079 --> 00:54:00.480 It was such a great story, it was such a unique fresh worried when 594 00:54:00.480 --> 00:54:04.760 it came out, it was it was monumental Luke and Luke is an amazing 595 00:54:04.800 --> 00:54:07.719 director as well. Absolutely absolutely, I mean it's this time. I'm a 596 00:54:07.760 --> 00:54:14.599 big big fan of his and and and I'm sure I was vilified in France 597 00:54:15.320 --> 00:54:19.119 having you know, how dare you how dare you touch this? How dare 598 00:54:19.320 --> 00:54:22.400 how dare I touch it? And I just I just told the French press. 599 00:54:22.400 --> 00:54:25.159 I said, well, please talk to Luke Passon. He's the guy 600 00:54:25.199 --> 00:54:30.360 that sold it to us, exactly. He Luke's the one that sold it. 601 00:54:30.880 --> 00:54:37.480 We we just went and then very politely asked you know what you know? 602 00:54:37.599 --> 00:54:43.519 Can we make a version of this? And he said sure. Now 603 00:54:43.840 --> 00:54:46.800 I have a couple of questions left. Out of all the films that you 604 00:54:47.440 --> 00:54:55.000 have made, do you have a favorite one? Well, it's it's hard 605 00:54:55.039 --> 00:55:01.000 to say, because there's good things and bad things in everything, and you 606 00:55:01.039 --> 00:55:05.519 know, I think about the good things and then WinCE at the bad ones 607 00:55:05.920 --> 00:55:09.719 and the mistakes and things I could have told me all done better, And 608 00:55:10.079 --> 00:55:15.280 sometimes it takes twenty five or thirty years before I go, oh no, 609 00:55:15.400 --> 00:55:22.559 I just figured out how to do that now. All right, So you 610 00:55:22.719 --> 00:55:25.960 now teach a Chapman University, what is the biggest lesson you try to teach 611 00:55:27.039 --> 00:55:34.440 your students That It's not about the equipment. It's about the human beings. 612 00:55:35.360 --> 00:55:38.880 It's not about the kind of fancy camera moves that it's easy to learn how 613 00:55:38.960 --> 00:55:45.360 to do. It's about what is going on with the characters here. What's 614 00:55:45.480 --> 00:55:49.920 the story? If you don't get that right, then all the rest matters 615 00:55:49.960 --> 00:55:59.199 for nothing. With young with young directors, that the first thing you can 616 00:55:59.280 --> 00:56:02.840 learn, the easy thing to learn is how the equipment works and and and 617 00:56:02.960 --> 00:56:07.760 you can get it in your hands and it'll pretty much do what you wanted 618 00:56:07.800 --> 00:56:13.599 to do. Uh. Human beings, on the other hand, are uh, 619 00:56:13.599 --> 00:56:15.840 you don't They don't do what you want them to do. The ideas 620 00:56:15.400 --> 00:56:22.320 and and they have they have creative thoughts and and you have to learn how 621 00:56:22.320 --> 00:56:28.760 to deal with that and that that frightens uh young directors no end. And 622 00:56:29.000 --> 00:56:32.039 a lot of our our job is trying to teach them how to work with 623 00:56:32.159 --> 00:56:37.800 actors and and you know, learning how to how to get the best performance 624 00:56:38.320 --> 00:56:45.920 out of them. In addition to uh, you know how how to work 625 00:56:45.960 --> 00:56:52.599 with with screenwriters and and you know, make make stories work as well as 626 00:56:52.639 --> 00:56:57.880 they can they can do. Now, what advice would you give a filmmaker 627 00:56:57.920 --> 00:57:02.159 wanting to break into the business today? Is there something else that you'd like 628 00:57:02.280 --> 00:57:07.920 to do? Why? For God's sakes, why why would you want to 629 00:57:07.960 --> 00:57:15.679 do this? I mean, I have I have a class of twenty three 630 00:57:15.719 --> 00:57:22.199 students right now who are all shooting their first short five minute films, okay 631 00:57:22.559 --> 00:57:29.280 and uh and and they're start they're starting to learn a lot of the the 632 00:57:29.360 --> 00:57:35.639 difficult parts of filmmaking that have nothing to do with filmmaking, uh, getting 633 00:57:35.960 --> 00:57:42.599 getting permits, finding actors, budget, all kinds of things that they you 634 00:57:42.639 --> 00:57:45.599 know, you don't think about when you're thinking about, you know, glamorous 635 00:57:45.639 --> 00:57:51.880 filmmaking. But they're having they're having to learn. It's a it's a very 636 00:57:52.000 --> 00:58:01.079 tough upward uh struggle, as as you know, and that almost has an 637 00:58:01.119 --> 00:58:08.440 automatic self sorting uh factor to it, where people start dropping by the wayside 638 00:58:08.480 --> 00:58:13.039 when they look, I don't have the energy, or that I don't care 639 00:58:13.079 --> 00:58:15.000 about it enough to do it, or I'm not very good at this. 640 00:58:16.119 --> 00:58:22.800 A lot of times we find people uh thinking they want to direct and then 641 00:58:22.840 --> 00:58:28.400 realizing they don't like interfacing with with human beings as much, but they love 642 00:58:28.639 --> 00:58:34.519 putting the film together or they love shooting, uh, you know, being 643 00:58:34.559 --> 00:58:38.280 a cinematographer. Right, So they find other things that they that they really 644 00:58:38.400 --> 00:58:44.760 enjoy doing and and that they're good at, and then they and they can 645 00:58:44.880 --> 00:58:50.639 make a make a career there. Because God knows, we have enough opportunities 646 00:58:50.719 --> 00:58:55.119 now with all of the television networks and channels and cable channels. Oh yes, 647 00:58:57.159 --> 00:59:04.599 it's so uh insane. It's so great compared to say television of twenty 648 00:59:04.679 --> 00:59:08.079 years ago, when you had four networks and that was it. That was 649 00:59:08.119 --> 00:59:12.519 the only place you could go. But now, gosh, all over the 650 00:59:12.559 --> 00:59:16.760 place. So there is opportunity, which is fabulous. And for those who 651 00:59:16.800 --> 00:59:22.519 are, you know, making good films in film school, you know they'll 652 00:59:22.679 --> 00:59:25.760 they'll get to break through. The cream does rise to the top, as 653 00:59:25.800 --> 00:59:32.599 they say, absolutely, and if you were you know nowadays, if you're 654 00:59:32.719 --> 00:59:37.440 talented, and let's say you're in a minority group or you're a woman, 655 00:59:37.960 --> 00:59:42.679 you've got a leg up. It's a great time for them because people are 656 00:59:43.039 --> 00:59:52.119 taking their them much more seriously and they're getting many more opportunities. Right, 657 00:59:52.639 --> 01:00:00.000 we'll be right back after a word from our sponsor out back to the show, 658 01:00:02.679 --> 01:00:08.079 My My. I had a manager, a talent manager come to one 659 01:00:08.119 --> 01:00:13.280 of my classes to talk to them about it. And he looked around the 660 01:00:13.280 --> 01:00:19.320 class of uh twelve people and he said, I can tell you who's going 661 01:00:19.360 --> 01:00:22.639 to be the big talents in this in this room right now. I've only 662 01:00:22.639 --> 01:00:27.440 been in this room for five minutes and he points to the two women. 663 01:00:30.440 --> 01:00:32.480 So he said, I'm not joking. He said that you know you you 664 01:00:32.559 --> 01:00:37.199 guys, will you know this is great. You're going to get an extra 665 01:00:37.440 --> 01:00:45.239 an extra little break here, and then long long overdue too. Absolutely absolutely, 666 01:00:45.599 --> 01:00:46.800 Now, what is the lesson that took you the longest to learn, 667 01:00:46.840 --> 01:00:54.159 whether in the film business or in life. Oh, my gosh, it's 668 01:00:54.159 --> 01:00:58.639 a tough question. I think I'm still learning it, so I don't know 669 01:00:58.679 --> 01:01:04.039 what it is. Fair enough, fair enough? And then three of your 670 01:01:04.039 --> 01:01:10.039 favorite films of all time? Oh, okay, No Country for Old Men, 671 01:01:10.239 --> 01:01:15.039 What a great movie. Oh love that movie. Citizen Kane. Uh 672 01:01:15.119 --> 01:01:19.079 huh, huh what, Yeah, I've heard, I've heard of it. 673 01:01:19.159 --> 01:01:21.639 Yes, you've heard of You've heard you've heard of it. I've seen it 674 01:01:21.679 --> 01:01:29.760 many times. It's wonderful. And The Godfather, number number one or number 675 01:01:29.760 --> 01:01:32.719 two? Can I lump them together? You literally another person, another guest 676 01:01:32.719 --> 01:01:35.760 at the exact same thing. I'm like, I'm just gonna lump one and 677 01:01:35.800 --> 01:01:38.119 two together because of the same movie. They're together. They should be, 678 01:01:39.199 --> 01:01:44.840 so, absolutely, John, these are movies. These are movies that have 679 01:01:45.039 --> 01:01:50.199 the I'm only gonna watch a scene test, which is you're flipping through the 680 01:01:50.280 --> 01:01:57.159 channels and and you come across something a scene on Godfather Too, and you 681 01:01:57.159 --> 01:02:00.880 say, oh, I'm only gonna watch a scene. Three hours later you 682 01:02:00.920 --> 01:02:06.079 realize you've watched both the purchase. Yes, yes, it definitely has that. 683 01:02:06.280 --> 01:02:08.840 It definitely passes that test. John, I want to thank you so 684 01:02:08.840 --> 01:02:13.280 so much for being on the show and sharing your knowledge and experience with the 685 01:02:13.679 --> 01:02:16.440 indie film Muzzle tribe. I really truly appreciate it. It's been an honor. 686 01:02:17.079 --> 01:02:20.679 Oh well, thank you. It's fun to talk to you. Said, 687 01:02:21.360 --> 01:02:27.320 good makes me think, thanks my friend. All Right, as promised, 688 01:02:27.679 --> 01:02:30.119 John dropped some major knowledge bombs on the tribe today. So John, 689 01:02:30.159 --> 01:02:34.280 again, thank you so so much for being on the show. It was 690 01:02:34.320 --> 01:02:37.280 an absolute honor speaking to you, my friend. And if you want links 691 01:02:37.280 --> 01:02:40.639 to any of his books or some amazing videos that I have in the show 692 01:02:40.679 --> 01:02:45.239 notes, head over to Bulletproof Screenwriting dot tv. Forward Slash three thirty six. 693 01:02:45.679 --> 01:02:49.199 Thank you so much for listening, guys, As always, keep on 694 01:02:49.280 --> 01:02:52.880 writing no matter what. I'll talk to you soon. Thanks for listening to 695 01:02:52.960 --> 01:02:57.559 the Bulletproof Screenwriting podcast at Bulletproof Screenwriting dot tv.