WEBVTT 1 00:00:01.000 --> 00:00:04.759 How'd you like to listen to dot net rocks with no ads? Easy? 2 00:00:05.320 --> 00:00:09.400 Become a patron For just five dollars a month, you get access to a 3 00:00:09.480 --> 00:00:14.199 private RSS feed where all the shows have no ADS. Twenty dollars a month 4 00:00:14.240 --> 00:00:18.600 will get you that and a special dot net Rocks patron mug. Sign up 5 00:00:18.640 --> 00:00:23.679 now at Patreon dot dot net rocks dot com. Hey Carlin Richard here. 6 00:00:24.000 --> 00:00:29.199 As you may have heard, NDC is back offering their incredible in person conferences 7 00:00:29.239 --> 00:00:33.159 around the world, and we'd like to tell you about them. NDC Oslow 8 00:00:33.159 --> 00:00:36.880 will be made twenty first through the twenty fifth. Go to NDC Oslo dot 9 00:00:36.920 --> 00:00:42.840 com to register. NDC Copenhagen is happening August twenty seventh through the thirty first. 10 00:00:42.880 --> 00:00:48.079 The early bird discount for NDC Copenhagen ends June second. Go to NDC 11 00:00:48.200 --> 00:00:54.200 Copenhagen dot com for more information. NDC Porto is happening October sixteenth through the 12 00:00:54.240 --> 00:00:58.799 twentieth. The early bird discount for dc Porto ends July twenty first. Go 13 00:00:58.880 --> 00:01:02.799 to EDDC Porto dot call them to register and check out the full lineup of 14 00:01:02.799 --> 00:01:21.719 conferences at NDC Conferences dot com. Day it's done, that rocks. You're 15 00:01:21.799 --> 00:01:30.159 not that. I'm Carl Franklin. I'm Richard Gamble. Yes I did that, 16 00:01:30.280 --> 00:01:33.040 you know, because the last show of the day, we're getting a 17 00:01:33.040 --> 00:01:38.680 little little punch fun loose. I hope you are too. Yeah, and 18 00:01:38.079 --> 00:01:41.480 Joe Finney's here. We're gonna be talking to him in a few minutes. 19 00:01:41.480 --> 00:01:44.480 But first, man, what is up with you? Richard? What's happening 20 00:01:44.519 --> 00:01:47.680 in your neck of the woods? Too much? You know, spring springs 21 00:01:47.719 --> 00:01:49.799 sprung, the grass's ribs. I wonder is where the birdies is? Okay? 22 00:01:49.879 --> 00:01:53.400 So you know what. I saw a picture that your wife posted on 23 00:01:53.439 --> 00:01:57.560 Facebook today of a bunch of you guys walk you and a couple of your 24 00:01:57.560 --> 00:02:04.120 friends and your wife getting the dog somewhere. That's just walking down the street 25 00:02:04.120 --> 00:02:07.319 with the sun behind us. Yeah, yeah, and Richard's on his phone. 26 00:02:07.560 --> 00:02:14.080 Yes, beautiful landscape everywhere. Richards looking at his phone, was just 27 00:02:14.120 --> 00:02:16.039 walking down the street and I'm thinking, oh, he's playing own this world 28 00:02:16.080 --> 00:02:20.680 again. It doesn't exist. I was looking up the price of the house 29 00:02:20.719 --> 00:02:23.479 that works for sale on that street. Ah, okay, it was three 30 00:02:23.599 --> 00:02:30.439 point two million. It's ridiculous. Somewhere like these guys are delusional. Now 31 00:02:30.479 --> 00:02:36.319 that was actually my younger daughter and her husband and their their new dog. 32 00:02:36.879 --> 00:02:40.479 Because you know, those two are planners and they you know, there's a 33 00:02:40.479 --> 00:02:46.000 spreadsheet somewhere with their plan. I'm just not privy to that spreadsheet. Did 34 00:02:46.000 --> 00:02:49.120 you get dog envy? But apparently they hit the line where it's like time 35 00:02:49.120 --> 00:02:53.919 to get a dog. So this was actually the dog is lovely, and 36 00:02:53.039 --> 00:03:00.080 this that particular visit was they brought the dog over to hang with us to 37 00:03:00.120 --> 00:03:02.639 see could they leave her with us for a week while they went on vacation 38 00:03:02.719 --> 00:03:06.599 or something. Not that there's anything planned, but that was the test case. 39 00:03:06.680 --> 00:03:10.560 So we went up for a walk. The dog immediately adored my wife, 40 00:03:10.639 --> 00:03:15.080 so not surprising. How are you doing dogless these days? Did you 41 00:03:15.080 --> 00:03:17.639 get a little WinCE of Oh, I wish I had one of them. 42 00:03:19.759 --> 00:03:23.039 The old man's been gone for more than a year, and I don't miss 43 00:03:23.639 --> 00:03:29.080 that dog the last two years when he was dealing with seizures and the brain 44 00:03:29.120 --> 00:03:31.080 cancer was slowly killing him. Yeah, but you miss him. I missed 45 00:03:31.080 --> 00:03:35.800 a dog from like five years ago when he was awesome. Yeah, but 46 00:03:36.080 --> 00:03:38.560 I don't want another dog. I want my old dog back, and I 47 00:03:38.560 --> 00:03:42.400 can't have that so don't you know, what are you gonna do? Well? 48 00:03:42.879 --> 00:03:46.240 On that note, we are going to roll the crazy music for better 49 00:03:46.280 --> 00:03:57.680 no framework. All right, man, what do you got speaking of crazy 50 00:03:57.840 --> 00:04:05.120 music? Wavtool dot com wavtool dot com? Oh wow, what's a wave 51 00:04:05.199 --> 00:04:11.719 tool? Wave tool, wave tool whatever? It is a browser based digital 52 00:04:11.800 --> 00:04:16.360 audio workstation. It's sample accurate, meaning you can zoom into the sample level. 53 00:04:17.000 --> 00:04:24.399 It has synthesizers, and it has processors and effects and you can wire 54 00:04:24.439 --> 00:04:29.240 them up with little you know whatever whatever you call these things. I don't 55 00:04:29.240 --> 00:04:33.560 know, dude. It looks like a flow chart right around the digital version 56 00:04:33.600 --> 00:04:40.120 of it. Und Yeah, And what's different about this is it's browser based 57 00:04:40.120 --> 00:04:46.240 and that's interesting enough. But there's a AI chatbot built in. Oh no, 58 00:04:46.399 --> 00:04:50.519 there's a large language model in my way, there's a large language model 59 00:04:50.720 --> 00:04:56.199 inside it, and so you can ask its stuff like hey, what's a 60 00:04:56.279 --> 00:05:00.040 side chain? And I'll tell you it's like, hey, do you I 61 00:05:00.040 --> 00:05:02.480 think I need some compression here? How much? Well, you probably want 62 00:05:02.480 --> 00:05:06.959 a compression ratio for vocals of about four to one. Whatever. You know, 63 00:05:08.079 --> 00:05:12.000 it's gonna funny, it's gonna help you not be stupid well about audio. 64 00:05:12.319 --> 00:05:15.000 I mean, you still have you still spat out words that a lot 65 00:05:15.040 --> 00:05:17.279 of people don't know, Like, yeah, that's true. But you know, 66 00:05:17.920 --> 00:05:20.800 you could probably say how do I make this vocal track sound better? 67 00:05:20.879 --> 00:05:26.000 And it'll probably tell you is there a remove suck button? That's what we're 68 00:05:26.040 --> 00:05:30.160 looking for. Ultimately, the issue isn't it? Yeah, get down to 69 00:05:30.240 --> 00:05:38.600 brass tacks. How can I make suck suck exactly less suck on this track? 70 00:05:38.959 --> 00:05:42.360 Yea, like a low suck version of this, a look suck filter. 71 00:05:46.040 --> 00:05:47.759 I warned you people there you go, it's gonna be one of those 72 00:05:47.839 --> 00:05:50.920 days. Anyway, I haven't really tried it. I loaded up the demo 73 00:05:51.000 --> 00:05:56.519 project. Um, it doesn't have a whole lot of features that expect from 74 00:05:56.600 --> 00:06:00.959 something like Adobe Audition, you know, zooming in and following and moving along 75 00:06:01.000 --> 00:06:04.680 with I can zoom in and zoom out, but I can't make it follow 76 00:06:04.720 --> 00:06:09.000 along when it moves off the screen to keep it in the middle, that 77 00:06:09.279 --> 00:06:13.240 little stuff like that, And there doesn't seem to be any control right for 78 00:06:13.319 --> 00:06:15.040 that kind of stuff. So it's just kind of like it reminds me of 79 00:06:15.079 --> 00:06:19.199 like version one of something where somebody said, hey, it's audio and the 80 00:06:19.319 --> 00:06:24.680 browser check it out right? Yeah, you know, like a demo that 81 00:06:24.800 --> 00:06:28.000 just came to life. Well, do you remember the original version of Cakewalkers? 82 00:06:28.040 --> 00:06:30.160 Like, hey, it's audio in the PC. Check it out because 83 00:06:30.160 --> 00:06:33.399 I should be impossible too. That's right, right, It's just a progression 84 00:06:33.439 --> 00:06:36.360 of layers. I love it. It is interesting and we'll see how it 85 00:06:36.399 --> 00:06:41.879 goes. So I don't want to make Donnett roxy all Ai show. But 86 00:06:42.040 --> 00:06:46.279 boy, oh boy, it's hard. It's a big talking point and a 87 00:06:46.319 --> 00:06:48.120 lot of angles. Yeah, I agree, I agree, man, all 88 00:06:48.199 --> 00:06:50.920 right, So that's what I got today. Who's talking to us? Richard 89 00:06:50.959 --> 00:06:56.519 Grady commendov show eighteen eighteen, the one we did back last fall with David 90 00:06:56.560 --> 00:07:00.879 Whitney. Oh good one at the the Ndclow. Too many F bombs in 91 00:07:00.920 --> 00:07:02.959 that show, and that's one of the you know, we got a lot 92 00:07:02.959 --> 00:07:06.839 of comments on that show, including a comment from our guest which I'm not 93 00:07:06.879 --> 00:07:12.120 going to read because I've already done that. And there was the hey, 94 00:07:12.160 --> 00:07:14.480 too many F bombs comment. That's not gonna read that one either. There's 95 00:07:14.519 --> 00:07:16.120 no reason that I'm going to read this comment from Jim who said, I 96 00:07:16.120 --> 00:07:19.959 love the insight and I'm equally frustrated the lack of real support for open source. 97 00:07:20.279 --> 00:07:25.199 However, while those reasons they hate on Microsoft and Google and others for 98 00:07:25.319 --> 00:07:28.480 using open sources of backboat of their own services. I have to say, 99 00:07:28.759 --> 00:07:32.839 let the licenser beware. If you slap MT licenses on something, you are 100 00:07:32.879 --> 00:07:36.439 giving anyone permission to use it. However they see fit. Someone's making a 101 00:07:36.480 --> 00:07:40.399 billion dollars off as something you gave them for free, and if that's going 102 00:07:40.439 --> 00:07:43.399 to bother you, you shouldn't have given to them for free. I don't 103 00:07:43.399 --> 00:07:46.600 agree. I'm careful about these licenses I put on things for exactly that reason, 104 00:07:47.480 --> 00:07:50.000 not that I think that Microsoft and Google and them are doing that all 105 00:07:50.040 --> 00:07:54.920 that often. They are licensing their stuff up pretty openly. I also tend 106 00:07:54.959 --> 00:07:57.879 to think that Microsoft and Google take too much heat compared to the others. 107 00:07:58.519 --> 00:08:01.360 I can at least point to some projects they released to the wilds open source. 108 00:08:01.360 --> 00:08:05.040 In other ways, they support community development. They aren't great, but 109 00:08:05.120 --> 00:08:09.360 they don't get a big goose egg either. It's the companies that are quietly 110 00:08:09.399 --> 00:08:13.839 doing nothing at all to give back to that need to get the most invective. 111 00:08:13.319 --> 00:08:18.519 Giving back to the technology community needs to be on the corporate responsibility and 112 00:08:18.720 --> 00:08:22.360 environmental society and governance radar, even if it's a smaller thing than the deeper 113 00:08:22.360 --> 00:08:26.839 issues that all those business bug words are lining up behind. Yeah, and 114 00:08:26.920 --> 00:08:31.360 let's not forget that the innutrenious techies that are introducing these open source solutions to 115 00:08:31.399 --> 00:08:35.440 their companies. That's most of your listeners, my self included, and we're 116 00:08:35.480 --> 00:08:39.639 just as complicit and not giving back enough or making an issue within our span 117 00:08:39.679 --> 00:08:43.960 of influence. Look, I don't really comment on these things often, as 118 00:08:43.000 --> 00:08:46.720 you know, right, But if I was working for a company and in 119 00:08:46.720 --> 00:08:52.480 my spare time in between tech support calls, I was building a little widget 120 00:08:52.600 --> 00:08:54.200 or something like that, and the company said, hey, that's pretty cool, 121 00:08:54.279 --> 00:08:58.639 let's publish that. Blah blah blah, you know, and then they 122 00:08:58.679 --> 00:09:01.320 went on to make millions of dollars on it. I can understand that because 123 00:09:01.360 --> 00:09:05.360 it's a work for hire. I wasn't hired to do that, you know. 124 00:09:05.440 --> 00:09:09.200 I basically was doing my job, and at my job that came out 125 00:09:09.240 --> 00:09:13.759 and blah blah blah. But if I'm just a guy, you know, 126 00:09:13.919 --> 00:09:18.159 or a lady, or are they, and I'm sitting at my desk and 127 00:09:18.200 --> 00:09:22.000 I'm writing something and I publish it and it's open source, and then some 128 00:09:22.080 --> 00:09:26.159 company comes along and takes it and sells it and makes millions of dollars with 129 00:09:26.440 --> 00:09:31.679 modifications or whatever. Damn right, I want some some of that, you 130 00:09:31.720 --> 00:09:35.919 know, I deserve some of that. Well, it's it's never what you 131 00:09:35.960 --> 00:09:39.240 deserve, it's what you negotiate. And you kind of gave away your negotiation 132 00:09:39.279 --> 00:09:43.120 with an open license. But I think I would think most companies are a 133 00:09:43.159 --> 00:09:46.360 little more careful than that too. If they're really going to run with a 134 00:09:46.440 --> 00:09:50.600 chunk of code like that, at least they'd hire you at least, right, 135 00:09:50.720 --> 00:09:54.519 Yeah, yeah, you see what happens. I mean. And I'm 136 00:09:54.559 --> 00:09:58.080 not gonna dump too much on individual developers on this. I think a lot 137 00:09:58.080 --> 00:10:01.159 of people do contribute to open source, but often there's developers that are utilizing 138 00:10:01.200 --> 00:10:05.440 opensource libraries not because they chose them, but because somebody else chose them, 139 00:10:05.679 --> 00:10:09.200 right, and they're kind of forced to use them, and you're not going 140 00:10:09.240 --> 00:10:11.360 to get passion from them around that library. Now, of course that I 141 00:10:11.679 --> 00:10:15.600 do think there's a schism here of using open source because you don't want to 142 00:10:15.600 --> 00:10:18.120 pay for things, rather than you've been using open source because it's the best 143 00:10:18.200 --> 00:10:20.960 tool in the toolkit, because it really is that good of a tool, 144 00:10:22.000 --> 00:10:24.759 then you should be supporting it. Yes, I do think, and I 145 00:10:24.799 --> 00:10:28.639 think David hit on this heart in that particular show that there is a corporate 146 00:10:28.720 --> 00:10:33.039 level of responsibility here that if your company is depending on open source software, 147 00:10:33.360 --> 00:10:37.200 you should be supporting that software. I agree. I think I agreed then 148 00:10:37.240 --> 00:10:41.360 and I still agree now. Well, thank goodness for that. What would 149 00:10:41.399 --> 00:10:43.639 we do if you didn't, I really don't know. We wouldn't have a 150 00:10:43.639 --> 00:10:46.600 show. So, Jim, thank you so much for your comment, and 151 00:10:46.639 --> 00:10:48.759 a copy us to go buy. It's on its way to you, and 152 00:10:48.799 --> 00:10:50.840 if you'd like a copybius to go by. I write a comment on the 153 00:10:50.840 --> 00:10:54.279 website at dot net rocks dot com or on the facebooks. We publish every 154 00:10:54.279 --> 00:10:56.360 show there, and if you comment there and I read in the show, 155 00:10:56.399 --> 00:10:58.480 will send you a copy means to go buy. And hey, you know 156 00:10:58.559 --> 00:11:01.759 you can follow us on Twitter all day long, but we'd really like you 157 00:11:01.799 --> 00:11:07.879 to follow us on Mastodon. I'm at Carl Franklin at tech hub dot social 158 00:11:07.240 --> 00:11:13.080 and I'm Rich Campbell at mastodon do social, So send us a toot and 159 00:11:13.399 --> 00:11:16.840 join us there, because it's more fun over there. I think the great 160 00:11:16.879 --> 00:11:22.360 community and that brings us to our guest, Joseph Finney, welcoming him back 161 00:11:22.399 --> 00:11:26.360 to dot net rocks. He is a mobile product owner by day, the 162 00:11:26.639 --> 00:11:31.240 builds productivity apps for windows. At night, when he's not programming, he 163 00:11:31.360 --> 00:11:37.799 is birding, running and enjoying tasty coffee and beer in Milwaukee. Welcome back, 164 00:11:37.879 --> 00:11:39.240 Joe, excellent bio. Yeah, it's good to be back birding. 165 00:11:39.279 --> 00:11:41.600 Good to have you back. Man Birding, birding, Birdie. Tell me 166 00:11:41.639 --> 00:11:45.360 about birding. Are you talking about going out in the wild with a camera 167 00:11:45.440 --> 00:11:48.279 and trying to document every kind of bird in the world. Um. Yeah, 168 00:11:48.360 --> 00:11:52.039 Sometimes you have a camera, sometimes you just have binoculars. It's a 169 00:11:52.080 --> 00:11:58.519 great hobby. I think a lot of tech minded people could would love it. 170 00:11:58.519 --> 00:12:01.759 It's very portable. Where you go, they're her birds. There's opportunities. 171 00:12:01.799 --> 00:12:05.320 Yeah, you can. Yeah, it's it's almost got that that church 172 00:12:05.360 --> 00:12:09.200 you're hunting kind of element to it, right for sure. It gets you 173 00:12:09.240 --> 00:12:15.200 outside. It pokes the whole hoarding obsessiveness thing without actually having to put boxes 174 00:12:15.200 --> 00:12:18.279 of stuff in your house. Yeah, my kids stay pick on us terribly. 175 00:12:18.480 --> 00:12:24.240 You know, you're such old bird people, you know, like we 176 00:12:24.879 --> 00:12:28.279 have a bird feeder. We just like to look at that look at the 177 00:12:28.360 --> 00:12:33.240 birds they send helpfully you know. Yeah, no, I'm with you hundred 178 00:12:33.240 --> 00:12:37.320 percent. I mean. And there's an app called eBird right that and you 179 00:12:37.360 --> 00:12:39.759 can kind of go on a walk and then document all the birds that you 180 00:12:39.799 --> 00:12:43.559 see in here and upload it and you get a little dashboard of where you 181 00:12:43.600 --> 00:12:46.759 saw, what you saw and if you travel internationally, you you know, 182 00:12:46.840 --> 00:12:52.000 the different countries light up. Now. Isn't that part of the Audubon society 183 00:12:52.000 --> 00:12:54.799 as well? Like they're literally using that to help understand where birds are. 184 00:12:56.080 --> 00:13:01.240 Yeah, I think Cornell University, right is like the research that where it 185 00:13:01.240 --> 00:13:03.720 all goes through. But yeah, the Audubon is definitely a big partner. 186 00:13:03.799 --> 00:13:09.399 It's awesome does that app identify birds from the pictures like with Ai so e 187 00:13:09.639 --> 00:13:13.200 bird is just for documenting what birds like recording what birds you see and where 188 00:13:13.200 --> 00:13:18.639 you are it okay, attracts your walk and everything. But Cornell makes an 189 00:13:18.639 --> 00:13:24.960 app called Merlin Bird I d as in The Wizard and the Bird, And 190 00:13:24.200 --> 00:13:31.879 that app has some awesome image recognition, which is not super useful because getting 191 00:13:31.879 --> 00:13:35.320 a good picture of our bird is that's really the magical ability. It's hard. 192 00:13:35.720 --> 00:13:39.720 It does sound recognition. So if you're on a walk in the woods, 193 00:13:39.840 --> 00:13:41.360 you just turn it on and it'll be like, oh, there's that 194 00:13:41.440 --> 00:13:45.480 birds. One more little story and then we're going to get off birds, 195 00:13:45.519 --> 00:13:48.080 I promise, all right. Um. I have a little camera that's set 196 00:13:48.159 --> 00:13:54.720 up right in the kitchen pointing at the bird feeder, and I broadcast it 197 00:13:54.759 --> 00:14:00.519 through wireless to a screen that's just up to the left in my my office. 198 00:14:00.519 --> 00:14:03.440 Here. I got the big like Richard, I've got the big chickgun 199 00:14:03.519 --> 00:14:07.720 toty what is it forty nine in Samsung like that, Yeah, And then 200 00:14:07.799 --> 00:14:11.519 right above that, I've got the other screen. It's it's just there. 201 00:14:11.679 --> 00:14:15.480 And I love that because I can sort of bring the outside in, you 202 00:14:15.519 --> 00:14:18.440 know. And whenever I'm feeling like, you know, I'm in a box 203 00:14:18.919 --> 00:14:20.399 and I really want to be outside, I just look up and oh, 204 00:14:20.440 --> 00:14:24.679 yeah, there's a cardinal or there's a squirrel out in the world, out 205 00:14:24.679 --> 00:14:26.480 in the world. Yea, yeah, a squirrel. I do have a 206 00:14:26.480 --> 00:14:28.240 friend with a merlin who brought it over to my place up on the coast, 207 00:14:28.919 --> 00:14:33.879 put her phone outside and just left it there for twenty minutes, and 208 00:14:33.919 --> 00:14:35.440 then it just gave us a list of all the bird calls that it had 209 00:14:35.480 --> 00:14:41.440 heard. Oh wow, yeah, it's pretty amazing and sometimes even like definitely 210 00:14:41.480 --> 00:14:46.240 it's spring migration very soon and luckey and like there are just an insane amount 211 00:14:46.279 --> 00:14:48.279 of birds that come through and you can catch a lot of them, but 212 00:14:48.480 --> 00:14:52.480 some of them you just never see. Some secret birds you can't catch them. 213 00:14:52.519 --> 00:14:54.360 But that sound is the easiest way to I d birds and oh yeah, 214 00:14:56.000 --> 00:14:58.440 great gray owl is good for that. Very hard to see a great 215 00:14:58.440 --> 00:15:00.960 ground, but you can hear them at night. They sound like I want 216 00:15:00.960 --> 00:15:05.080 to get laid. I want to get laid. All right, you can't, 217 00:15:07.080 --> 00:15:11.879 Oh, I guess you can. All right, let's let's quickly shift 218 00:15:11.879 --> 00:15:15.440 to open source. First of all, any comments on the comment that Richard 219 00:15:15.440 --> 00:15:20.159 read, Um, yeah, there's I kind of threw this in the notes 220 00:15:20.399 --> 00:15:24.360 to discuss, but I think open source is complicated, and it kind of, 221 00:15:24.399 --> 00:15:28.519 as you pointed out, Carl, like if somebody just made a tool 222 00:15:28.559 --> 00:15:33.919 and included your open source library or use some sort of framework and it wasn't 223 00:15:33.919 --> 00:15:37.559 really the end result or the product that's being sold. That is I think 224 00:15:37.600 --> 00:15:45.639 one discussion, but taking and like the end product and either repackaging it or 225 00:15:45.720 --> 00:15:50.080 rebranding it. Or just wholesale taking it and slapping it into your product and 226 00:15:50.159 --> 00:15:54.240 reselling it. It definitely feels like those are two different things. Yeah, 227 00:15:54.120 --> 00:15:58.840 but the problem is that they're all under this giant umbrella of open source and 228 00:15:58.960 --> 00:16:03.080 libraries, so it gets messy and I think people get really defensive when you 229 00:16:03.120 --> 00:16:06.559 say, like, oh, you you know, you need to be supporting 230 00:16:06.600 --> 00:16:10.200 open source and they're like, how, you know what? It just seems 231 00:16:10.240 --> 00:16:15.600 like an impossible discussion. So I think breaking it down into kind of the 232 00:16:15.679 --> 00:16:18.440 who, what, why, but also like the kind of the base level 233 00:16:18.480 --> 00:16:21.639 level, like what are the types of open source projects that we should be 234 00:16:21.679 --> 00:16:26.080 supporting and how should we be supporting them? I think that is helpful to 235 00:16:26.200 --> 00:16:29.639 shape the argument of you know, you need to be supporting, and I 236 00:16:29.679 --> 00:16:34.480 think it helps people understand in their real world kind of where what type of 237 00:16:34.519 --> 00:16:38.960 open source am I interacting with or am I using in my professional work and 238 00:16:40.039 --> 00:16:42.799 my personal work or whatever it is, and then one of the different motivations 239 00:16:42.799 --> 00:16:48.879 for why I should be supporting them. I've built an open source library that 240 00:16:48.159 --> 00:16:56.879 uses another open source library before, and I fully credit that other open source 241 00:16:56.879 --> 00:17:02.240 library and say this is we have a tendency on this library as well, 242 00:17:02.720 --> 00:17:07.160 but it's still all open source and it's the fully you know, acceptable with 243 00:17:07.240 --> 00:17:11.039 the license and everything else. And that's a that's a totally different thing, 244 00:17:11.079 --> 00:17:15.680 isn't I think that that's really what open source. I mean, that's the 245 00:17:15.720 --> 00:17:18.359 true calling of open source, isn't it that, Hey, you know, 246 00:17:18.440 --> 00:17:22.400 you can use this, you can you can utilize it, you can build 247 00:17:22.440 --> 00:17:26.599 on it, and we give each other credit, and you know, that's 248 00:17:26.599 --> 00:17:29.599 the way it goes. We do build on the shoulders or giants. Yeah, 249 00:17:29.599 --> 00:17:33.000 exactly, somebody built this tool, and I'm going to use that to 250 00:17:33.119 --> 00:17:36.079 build something else, right, And so that is why I put that, 251 00:17:36.720 --> 00:17:40.519 Like, I think the phrase that unfortunately gets brought up all the time is 252 00:17:40.519 --> 00:17:42.200 all what's the cost? You know what, what's this cost of this software 253 00:17:42.240 --> 00:17:47.799 or what's the etc. But ultimately, I think it's a pretty obvious reason 254 00:17:47.839 --> 00:17:51.759 why we all use open source projects, and that is the benefit. So 255 00:17:51.880 --> 00:17:55.200 I think we need to maybe shift a little bit of the discussion about we're 256 00:17:55.200 --> 00:17:57.480 not splitting the cost of it, we're splitting the benefit, right, And 257 00:17:59.000 --> 00:18:03.839 the benefit of open source is incredible, I mean it is massive. I 258 00:18:03.880 --> 00:18:10.319 can a really simple example, as in text grab people requested the feature to 259 00:18:10.839 --> 00:18:15.079 include reading barcodes and QR codes, which you know, pretty simple, and 260 00:18:15.079 --> 00:18:18.640 I'm like, oh man, there has got to be a library out there, 261 00:18:18.960 --> 00:18:23.559 right, yeah, this isn't a new idea, and obviously obviously there 262 00:18:23.680 --> 00:18:27.720 is. It's there's a you know, there's a C based library. There's 263 00:18:27.720 --> 00:18:30.799 a million different libraries. And so which one did I pick? I picked 264 00:18:30.799 --> 00:18:34.319 one that looked healthy enough, it has you know, it's easy. They 265 00:18:34.359 --> 00:18:40.960 basically looked at the really popular I think it's called z xing for like zebra 266 00:18:41.039 --> 00:18:44.640 crossing. I don't know where the name comes from, but basically z xing 267 00:18:44.880 --> 00:18:48.519 dot net and it, you know, makes it really easy for me to 268 00:18:48.519 --> 00:18:53.440 consume a really popular QR code barcode reader in my app. And so I 269 00:18:53.519 --> 00:18:56.559 was like, sweet, the benefit of that is amazing, and I rolled 270 00:18:56.559 --> 00:19:00.279 it in. I think it took me a day and I had a functional 271 00:19:00.400 --> 00:19:03.440 prototype, and I was like, this is great. And so I contribute 272 00:19:03.440 --> 00:19:07.200 five bucks a month and I'll get hub because they say for me an incredible 273 00:19:07.200 --> 00:19:11.799 amount of time, right yeah, yeah, no kidding, and just a 274 00:19:11.000 --> 00:19:15.599 just a reasonable contribution, right, and you encourage your users to do the 275 00:19:15.640 --> 00:19:18.079 same, Yeah, I mean, and that's where it's all called out in 276 00:19:18.079 --> 00:19:19.519 They're like, oh, how does this you know, how does it work? 277 00:19:19.680 --> 00:19:22.480 Well, you know, I'm not a genius. It would be impossible 278 00:19:22.599 --> 00:19:26.880 for me to do all of this work. Somebody else is doing it and 279 00:19:26.920 --> 00:19:30.359 the benefit is really that open source is there and if you want to see 280 00:19:30.400 --> 00:19:33.559 how it works, check it out. Joe. I don't know if you're 281 00:19:33.559 --> 00:19:40.839 old enough to remember this word shareware. I'm familiar you are, okay, 282 00:19:41.680 --> 00:19:45.000 so old guys like Richard and I, this is our first experience with free 283 00:19:45.000 --> 00:19:52.599 software was that you would download something from somebody's bbs, you know before websites, 284 00:19:52.200 --> 00:19:56.359 and you use it and if it was good it and you liked it, 285 00:19:56.480 --> 00:20:03.799 you would donate to the project. And I don't know of any sharewear 286 00:20:03.880 --> 00:20:07.680 authors that ever made anything other than maybe a hundred bucks in a year, 287 00:20:07.839 --> 00:20:11.599 well, with the exception of Doom. Okay, tell me about Doom, 288 00:20:11.759 --> 00:20:17.920 right, Doom was the doom was the sharewear hit, right? That that 289 00:20:18.000 --> 00:20:19.720 was we just we just did this show, right, And that was the 290 00:20:19.759 --> 00:20:23.279 whole point. Was that John Carmack and co. Like when they did they 291 00:20:23.440 --> 00:20:27.480 sharewear, they sold billions of copies like they sent They got sent a lot 292 00:20:27.480 --> 00:20:30.920 of money. Okay, but they were the exception, right, right, 293 00:20:30.960 --> 00:20:34.519 they were the exception. But all those little word processors and things like that 294 00:20:34.599 --> 00:20:41.000 for dos, nobody ever paid them anything. Yeah, certainly not enough, 295 00:20:41.519 --> 00:20:45.759 certainly not enough. Anyway, I just wanted to hold out for a minute. 296 00:20:45.200 --> 00:20:48.720 Yeah, I mean, on the point of making money on open source. 297 00:20:48.880 --> 00:20:52.000 I threw some links in there. I don't know if you're familiar as 298 00:20:52.000 --> 00:20:56.759 a web pack or Yeah, it's a pretty popular tool. Uh, And 299 00:20:56.920 --> 00:21:00.359 that's a really big tool. And that's one of those kind of tools people 300 00:21:00.440 --> 00:21:07.000 use to build their products, and that's an open collective. And I think 301 00:21:07.400 --> 00:21:14.640 they've distributed like one point three million dollars of donated I don't know how they 302 00:21:15.039 --> 00:21:18.519 necessarily describe it, but that's a lot of money if you think about for 303 00:21:18.559 --> 00:21:22.400 a one piece of product. But then you think webpack, what web pack? 304 00:21:23.200 --> 00:21:26.160 That's huge. I mean if you think about what, you know, 305 00:21:26.200 --> 00:21:30.680 what is the ballpark number of billions of dollars that are built using webpack. 306 00:21:30.799 --> 00:21:34.119 I mean, it's unbelievable. And they think that they have distributed one point 307 00:21:34.119 --> 00:21:37.519 three million. It should be a lot for a single individual. But if 308 00:21:37.559 --> 00:21:41.519 you made it, if you made a company, that's product was that popular, 309 00:21:41.839 --> 00:21:45.720 you'd be making a lot more than one point three million dollars in a 310 00:21:45.799 --> 00:21:49.519 year. Yea. So it's and I think that's kind of the going back 311 00:21:49.519 --> 00:21:52.799 to why do you support open source? I think a big part of when 312 00:21:52.880 --> 00:21:59.440 it comes to open source tools that you use to build your products, you 313 00:21:59.480 --> 00:22:03.000 want long term health, you want sustainability. Yeah, and if if, 314 00:22:03.680 --> 00:22:08.160 if somebody's slept an MIT license on their project so that people would look at 315 00:22:08.160 --> 00:22:11.880 it, so that Microsoft would look at it in Google and give them a 316 00:22:11.960 --> 00:22:15.599 job. As soon as they get a job, that project is stale, 317 00:22:17.000 --> 00:22:21.519 gone dead well, And just because you're good at building a piece of software 318 00:22:21.559 --> 00:22:26.519 is it doesn't mean you're good at building a team around of contributors and supporters 319 00:22:26.519 --> 00:22:29.880 so that it can function without you. Most of these projects are dependent on 320 00:22:29.920 --> 00:22:33.920 their creator, and even if there are the contributors, there's nobody else in 321 00:22:33.000 --> 00:22:37.119 position to delete it. So it's you're going to You're going to be in 322 00:22:37.119 --> 00:22:42.119 trouble if that person's distracted, right for sure, or if their popular open 323 00:22:42.119 --> 00:22:48.359 source project was mainly a intentional tool to get them a job, because the 324 00:22:48.440 --> 00:22:55.240 job has stability and open source is not stable as far as income, right, 325 00:22:55.400 --> 00:22:59.160 well, and I keep thinking about Glimpse. Right, that's a story 326 00:22:59.319 --> 00:23:02.880 and those I mean a super nice guys built a really great thing, got 327 00:23:02.960 --> 00:23:06.240 jobs at Microsoft. They worked on Glimpse for a little while and then it 328 00:23:06.359 --> 00:23:10.039 got rolled into other things and now they work elsewhere inside of Microsoft. But 329 00:23:10.160 --> 00:23:14.559 yeah, you know Glimpses now it's it's still an archive on GitHub, but 330 00:23:14.680 --> 00:23:19.920 it's basically a retired project. But you could also say that it was instrumental 331 00:23:21.039 --> 00:23:25.400 in bringing forth the web tools that we have today. Don't you think it 332 00:23:25.440 --> 00:23:27.079 had an effect without a doubt? Yeah, it had an effect on the 333 00:23:27.119 --> 00:23:32.559 whole ecosystem, which is good because ultimately people just want a product they can 334 00:23:32.680 --> 00:23:37.039 use. But for the creators, the idea that the success of that product 335 00:23:37.079 --> 00:23:41.720 results in them getting new jobs and the and the creation going away. Like 336 00:23:41.880 --> 00:23:45.960 this is a that's not a sustainable model. It's not a healthy way. 337 00:23:45.000 --> 00:23:49.000 It's like a kind of a lottery model where maybe you'll have this win and 338 00:23:49.039 --> 00:23:52.599 then you won't have to do this stuff anymore. Like that's a that's not 339 00:23:52.640 --> 00:23:56.400 a model that stays healthy for long. Right, Yeah, you have your 340 00:23:56.400 --> 00:24:03.279 interview used the NPM command. Are you familiar with this? No? No, 341 00:24:03.519 --> 00:24:07.400 tell me about it. It was rolled out, it looks like around 342 00:24:07.720 --> 00:24:11.440 end of twenty nineteen, I think, and you'll you'll notice it kind of 343 00:24:11.480 --> 00:24:15.400 pop up in your console if you run some commands I think probably NPM build 344 00:24:15.599 --> 00:24:19.200 or MPM start, and it's, you know, pops up and says, 345 00:24:19.200 --> 00:24:22.920 oh, you know, these packages are what you used, and some of 346 00:24:22.920 --> 00:24:27.640 them are looking for funding type NPM fund for more details. And so it 347 00:24:27.759 --> 00:24:36.079 is basically a field on the package that enables creators of popular packages to say, 348 00:24:36.319 --> 00:24:41.720 hey, I'm looking for funding and here is my you know, funding 349 00:24:41.720 --> 00:24:45.079 address, whether that's open collective or give a hub, sponsors or whatever. 350 00:24:45.599 --> 00:24:48.319 And because, like you said, Carl, a lot of these tools use 351 00:24:48.440 --> 00:24:51.960 other tools. Get a left pad situation going on, right, Yeah, 352 00:24:52.079 --> 00:24:56.720 And so it really does need to be in the tool chain. This complicated 353 00:24:56.799 --> 00:25:03.279 on rolling and like spreading out the benefit that is the benefit of it. 354 00:25:03.319 --> 00:25:10.720 And if the technology makers like NPM or I don't know, Microsoft with new 355 00:25:10.759 --> 00:25:17.160 get, they also have a responsibility to have avenues for creators to fund and 356 00:25:17.279 --> 00:25:22.400 for people to find those creators and help them in a reasonable way. But 357 00:25:22.720 --> 00:25:25.759 there is no such thing that I have noticed, at least that I have 358 00:25:25.799 --> 00:25:32.960 found a new get What did you think about David's idea to roll some sort 359 00:25:33.000 --> 00:25:45.039 of monetization scheme or protocol into GitHub. I think it would be very well 360 00:25:45.119 --> 00:25:48.279 appreciated. I think a lot of people would love it, and I think 361 00:25:48.359 --> 00:25:55.039 ultimately there's a ton of individual tool builders out there who are not entrepreneurs and 362 00:25:55.079 --> 00:26:00.920 they're not business people, and they just want to make their ideas. And 363 00:26:00.680 --> 00:26:04.920 if you make it really easy for people to make a living of something by 364 00:26:04.960 --> 00:26:08.920 removing a lot of the barriers, then I think people will do it. 365 00:26:10.079 --> 00:26:15.640 And I don't think it's a coincidence that NPM has a lot of healthy, 366 00:26:15.079 --> 00:26:21.319 like big medium sized businesses that are all open source that have money flowing through, 367 00:26:21.640 --> 00:26:25.559 and also NPM itself was independent for a long time. I don't think 368 00:26:25.559 --> 00:26:27.400 that's a coincidence. I think that they all understand they kind of get it. 369 00:26:27.759 --> 00:26:32.000 So I think GitHub being owned by Microsoft that would be suspicious if they 370 00:26:32.039 --> 00:26:37.079 really have that kind of hungry attitude. But I think a lot of the 371 00:26:37.079 --> 00:26:41.640 creators who make their life on GitHub, they have that hunger to actually make 372 00:26:41.680 --> 00:26:45.680 a life out of it, and there are a lot of hoops you have 373 00:26:45.720 --> 00:26:49.039 to jump through, So I understand why get Hub would avoid doing it, 374 00:26:49.079 --> 00:26:53.079 just because it is so complicated. As soon as you start to get into 375 00:26:53.119 --> 00:26:57.319 that finances, that whole tax thing comes through, and you know, corporations 376 00:26:57.359 --> 00:27:02.880 and not not just that that that there's a real danger here that these the 377 00:27:02.960 --> 00:27:06.640 companies that are in charge and they're helping you and all that stuff could so 378 00:27:06.839 --> 00:27:10.079 take advantage of you. I'm thinking of the music business. And I don't 379 00:27:10.119 --> 00:27:12.640 remember if I actually told this story when we were talking to David Whitney. 380 00:27:12.680 --> 00:27:17.480 Richard, correct me if I'm wrong, But um, you know Chuck Barry 381 00:27:18.079 --> 00:27:21.480 when he came on the scene, you know, the record companies are like, 382 00:27:22.200 --> 00:27:26.519 okay, we can We're going to sign this record deal and we can 383 00:27:26.559 --> 00:27:30.359 either give you a brand new Cadillac or we can give you, you know, 384 00:27:32.000 --> 00:27:37.400 fifteen percent royalties and improp duity or whatever. And he took the Cadillac, 385 00:27:37.599 --> 00:27:41.200 you know, just not realizing, not understanding. Yeah he was he 386 00:27:41.240 --> 00:27:45.759 was a guitar player, yeah, not a business person. Yeah, of 387 00:27:45.759 --> 00:27:52.519 course I want a Cadillac. So gidhub sponsors sounds like NPM fund, right 388 00:27:52.599 --> 00:27:56.640 that, except it will actually tie to your account and say hey, here's 389 00:27:56.640 --> 00:28:00.640 who's you know running the projects that your apps de pend end On like it 390 00:28:00.680 --> 00:28:03.799 seems to do a pretty good job of that takes your right to the users. 391 00:28:04.160 --> 00:28:08.799 Yes involved. So npm fund I believe can point back to get hub 392 00:28:08.799 --> 00:28:15.079 sponsors, right, But npm fund is built into the built into NPM. 393 00:28:15.160 --> 00:28:19.880 It's a command line item and it allows. But to me reading through the 394 00:28:19.920 --> 00:28:23.039 docs on this, it's really about how you set up your project. You 395 00:28:23.160 --> 00:28:26.480 say, if you want a sponsor, this is what you gotta do. 396 00:28:26.799 --> 00:28:30.319 So you guys, we're talking about get hub sponsors. I didn't even know 397 00:28:30.359 --> 00:28:34.960 about this. What what is that? It's like a Patreon you know, 398 00:28:36.160 --> 00:28:41.200 I mean, like that package I mentioned that QR code. I sign up 399 00:28:41.200 --> 00:28:44.799 and I just pay five dollars a month and it goes to that person who 400 00:28:44.880 --> 00:28:48.279 makes that library. And it's simple. It's little, but obviously if a 401 00:28:48.319 --> 00:28:52.000 ton of people use the library, it can all add up and people make 402 00:28:52.160 --> 00:28:56.839 a healthy living on Patreon. So is this new since we talked to David 403 00:28:56.880 --> 00:29:00.559 Whitney. I think it existed. It existed, Okay, yeah, I 404 00:29:00.559 --> 00:29:03.160 think it's not quite then what we're talking about. Yeah, I think it 405 00:29:03.160 --> 00:29:07.279 gets complicated. I think this is a like do what you can and get 406 00:29:07.319 --> 00:29:14.880 have sponsors it's pretty straightforward, it's pretty simple, but there is no from 407 00:29:14.920 --> 00:29:18.119 again what I can tell, there's no integration from a like plan. I 408 00:29:18.160 --> 00:29:22.000 mean, you can't do like API keys. It's not going to handle that 409 00:29:22.079 --> 00:29:23.680 kind of thing. So it's not going to handle like tokens. And you 410 00:29:23.680 --> 00:29:29.920 know that would be the next level, which would be amazing but obviously incredibly 411 00:29:29.960 --> 00:29:33.640 complicated and maybe beyond the scope of what GitHub is doing. And the NPM 412 00:29:33.680 --> 00:29:37.400 thing you were talking about is MPM fund. Sure, well doesn't that require 413 00:29:37.519 --> 00:29:41.200 NPM? What if you're not a job script tool. Yeah, So NPM 414 00:29:41.200 --> 00:29:44.599 fund is a way is a command that you can run on your project to 415 00:29:44.680 --> 00:29:48.720 basically say, okay, I'm using a ton of different packages in my project, 416 00:29:48.240 --> 00:29:52.559 which one of these are is looking for funding? And how can I 417 00:29:52.599 --> 00:29:56.400 support those creators? So it's basically a little flag that people can put up 418 00:29:56.400 --> 00:30:00.680 and say, hey, you know, I'm small, I want help funding 419 00:30:00.720 --> 00:30:03.240 this project. It's not free. They can put it in their packet, 420 00:30:03.240 --> 00:30:07.000 in their NPM package and say hey, sponsor me i GitHub. And when 421 00:30:07.039 --> 00:30:11.599 people run MBM fund on there in their own projects, they could see which 422 00:30:11.640 --> 00:30:17.480 ones which creators are asking for funding. So and that's the kind of thing 423 00:30:17.480 --> 00:30:22.119 that Microsoft could do with new GAT include that as an option. So people 424 00:30:22.160 --> 00:30:26.039 say, oh, I have this wildly popular desktop app that's closed source, 425 00:30:26.680 --> 00:30:30.480 but there's not really any way to say, you know, are these small 426 00:30:30.519 --> 00:30:33.960 creators who are looking for funding? Are these big corporations? Like who makes 427 00:30:34.000 --> 00:30:37.839 these packages? And it's not always super clear, But that's a way of 428 00:30:37.880 --> 00:30:44.119 allowing creators to make it clear to their consumers. So it could be part 429 00:30:44.119 --> 00:30:48.920 of new GAT to drive it to a little more low level. Yeah, 430 00:30:48.960 --> 00:30:53.279 I mean, I think it would be useful if I was an enterprise architect 431 00:30:53.599 --> 00:31:00.000 to be able to roll up that information to business right ultimately, Yeah, 432 00:31:00.160 --> 00:31:03.000 here's our software bill of materials, like all of these products we use, 433 00:31:04.200 --> 00:31:08.160 you know, and here's who makes them and the kind of incomes they have, 434 00:31:08.519 --> 00:31:11.279 and you know, where should we apply support? If you use a 435 00:31:11.319 --> 00:31:15.799 bunch of Microsoft libraries, you're okay, you're already buying Azure. But you 436 00:31:15.839 --> 00:31:18.960 know, if it's if it's a small you know, individual, that kind 437 00:31:19.000 --> 00:31:22.160 of thing, it doesn't take that much to cut them a little bit of 438 00:31:22.160 --> 00:31:26.240 money, and certainly to work through these tools. I'm a big Patreon guy. 439 00:31:26.240 --> 00:31:29.640 I spent a couple hundred dollars a month on Patreon. Just yeah, 440 00:31:29.680 --> 00:31:32.880 me too, Just sending a few dollars to folks who are making things. 441 00:31:32.920 --> 00:31:34.680 I think it's cool, you know, Yeah, for sure, there's no 442 00:31:34.720 --> 00:31:37.279 reason we shouldn't be doing that as well. And get hub for the projects 443 00:31:37.279 --> 00:31:40.519 we think you're cool. And with that, I'm going to interrupt for one 444 00:31:40.559 --> 00:31:45.200 moment of this very important message. There's always something new from our sponsor, 445 00:31:45.319 --> 00:31:51.000 text Control. As a developer, do you need to integrate PDF generation, 446 00:31:51.279 --> 00:31:56.119 document editing or electronic signatures into your asp net corps or angular applications? Or 447 00:31:56.160 --> 00:32:01.279 you want to learn more about the differences between electronic digital signatures. Text Control 448 00:32:01.400 --> 00:32:07.079 is offering a free consulting service to educate you about digital document processing and how 449 00:32:07.119 --> 00:32:12.839 text Control products can help you add these features to your applications. Go to 450 00:32:12.920 --> 00:32:22.720 text control dot com, slash contact and request your free personal consultation and we're 451 00:32:22.759 --> 00:32:24.519 back. It's done. Rocks. I'm Richard Campbell. That's Carl Franklin. 452 00:32:24.599 --> 00:32:29.839 Hey, Hey, and we're talking to our friend Josephiney again who has both 453 00:32:29.880 --> 00:32:31.960 done a pass show and I read a comment on his on open source, 454 00:32:32.000 --> 00:32:36.960 so we were talking privately about more open source concerns. Its like, yeah, 455 00:32:36.960 --> 00:32:38.920 I we should just make this a show because I think, you know, 456 00:32:39.160 --> 00:32:44.839 talking to someone who's who is trying to support their own open source creation 457 00:32:45.000 --> 00:32:49.039 habit. Because you have a job, right, Like, you're not making 458 00:32:49.039 --> 00:32:52.480 a limit off an open source you have a regular job. All these cool 459 00:32:52.519 --> 00:32:55.279 projects you've got text grab and so forth, that's the stuff you're doing on 460 00:32:55.319 --> 00:32:59.960 the side that you like, Yeah, yeah, that's just stuff I do 461 00:33:00.240 --> 00:33:06.119 because I refuse to be sitting in front of an amazing machine and seeing text 462 00:33:06.440 --> 00:33:10.359 in a picture and transcribing it. I'm like, computer, do this for 463 00:33:10.640 --> 00:33:17.000 me, right, this is a solved problem. We're smarter than this that 464 00:33:17.200 --> 00:33:22.799 the API literally is sitting in Windows only I could find a way to hook 465 00:33:22.839 --> 00:33:28.759 into it. Belly figured it out. Yeah, and that is actually the 466 00:33:28.839 --> 00:33:36.000 same base project that is the Power Toys text extractor. So earthlier familiar with 467 00:33:36.440 --> 00:33:42.640 text Extractor, But I wrapped up that full screen grab mode and shipped it 468 00:33:42.640 --> 00:33:46.960 into Power Toys last year. So awesome, Wow, cool. Are you 469 00:33:47.039 --> 00:33:52.559 familiar with wind get heavy the of you use that tool much? Wine that 470 00:33:52.680 --> 00:33:57.160 rings a bell? This is new Get for Windows, like chocolate kind of 471 00:33:57.160 --> 00:34:01.960 thing. Yep. Yeah, so it's Microsoft kind of app install command line 472 00:34:01.960 --> 00:34:08.679 tool which also will pull from the store and you can submit packages and you 473 00:34:08.679 --> 00:34:14.800 can do all that fun stuff. But one interesting emission that I found as 474 00:34:14.840 --> 00:34:20.119 a person who has apps in the store, if your app is not free, 475 00:34:20.920 --> 00:34:28.880 it is not in wind get wow m which is I mean I understand, 476 00:34:29.039 --> 00:34:31.000 like, oh, you're you don't want to put your credit card information 477 00:34:31.000 --> 00:34:37.320 through the command line, but it is interesting to me that, you know, 478 00:34:37.400 --> 00:34:40.800 if you want to be a successful app creator and Microsoft comes out with 479 00:34:40.840 --> 00:34:45.000 these new tools, yeah, you have to give it away right well or 480 00:34:45.280 --> 00:34:49.719 change wind get right. I mean, how hard is it to take a 481 00:34:49.760 --> 00:34:53.199 password, you know, for this app and for that app or whatever that 482 00:34:53.239 --> 00:34:57.719 you need, supply your passwords and let it do it for you. Honestly, 483 00:34:57.760 --> 00:35:00.239 I think they're just being lazy. It's hard, more complicated to deal 484 00:35:00.280 --> 00:35:05.159 with pay software, and so whoever was for small support didn't want to deal 485 00:35:05.159 --> 00:35:08.440 with it. Yeah, it sounds like an intern project right or Also before 486 00:35:08.480 --> 00:35:13.199 the show, I did a little bit of slothing to see if like new 487 00:35:13.239 --> 00:35:16.159 get fund was even in on the roadmap, if there was an open issue. 488 00:35:16.440 --> 00:35:21.360 There's not thinking about opening it up as an issue. But I just 489 00:35:21.400 --> 00:35:24.719 need to go through and make sure there's not something an alternate you know, 490 00:35:24.880 --> 00:35:30.239 description of that kind of feature. And then also wind Get fund the same 491 00:35:30.320 --> 00:35:31.679 kind of thing. You know, if you make an open source a really 492 00:35:31.679 --> 00:35:37.519 simple open source utility. I make a utility called Windows Caffeinated and it is 493 00:35:37.559 --> 00:35:40.920 the most basic utility ever. It puts a little tray icon and puts a 494 00:35:40.960 --> 00:35:45.159 little coffee cup in your tray. You click it, your screen does not 495 00:35:45.199 --> 00:35:49.239 go to sleep. Simple, Well you're getting coffee. I love that. 496 00:35:49.400 --> 00:35:52.239 Simple. It just stays away forever. So teachers or whatever, really easy. 497 00:35:52.320 --> 00:35:55.199 You can get it on wind get but there's no way in wind Get 498 00:35:55.199 --> 00:35:58.639 to say hey I like this, you know, can I throw this person 499 00:35:58.679 --> 00:36:01.559 a few bucks or whatever? Right, that's not in the system. I 500 00:36:01.599 --> 00:36:06.440 mean it's the system. Yeah, money makes the world go around. You 501 00:36:06.440 --> 00:36:09.440 would think Microsoft would know that. Just make it easy, that's all. 502 00:36:09.800 --> 00:36:14.960 Yeah. Yeah, And it's not for Microsoft to make money that way, 503 00:36:15.000 --> 00:36:17.480 they don't need to. But to you know, you talk about ways to 504 00:36:17.519 --> 00:36:22.400 support the ecosystem, right, yeah, it is interesting you think, I 505 00:36:22.440 --> 00:36:25.079 mean, we don't think about developers struggling to pay the bills per se. 506 00:36:25.639 --> 00:36:30.559 But it is an awful lot of code that people depend on that isn't their 507 00:36:30.599 --> 00:36:35.440 main job, but maybe not to be. I mean, I guess that's 508 00:36:35.480 --> 00:36:37.840 the question for you, Joseph. Would you quit your job and make just 509 00:36:37.880 --> 00:36:40.079 work full time on these things if that was an option, if it was 510 00:36:40.119 --> 00:36:45.280 a reasonable income, Absolutely, yeah, tomorrow I would put my job tomorrow. 511 00:36:45.760 --> 00:36:52.599 Yeah, your boss is so excited, right exactly. I I would 512 00:36:52.639 --> 00:36:58.079 love to do that. Partially, I just have kind of that entrepreneurial mindset 513 00:36:58.159 --> 00:37:00.480 where I want to, you know, make new things and bet on stuff 514 00:37:00.480 --> 00:37:04.679 and get out there. But you you also have a family, like you, 515 00:37:04.920 --> 00:37:07.079 you know exactly, I have a mortgage, so you have a mortgage. 516 00:37:07.079 --> 00:37:12.400 So it's it's a it's a significant risk to to try and do that 517 00:37:12.440 --> 00:37:16.840 too. And ultimately that is kind of the I think a lot of creators 518 00:37:16.880 --> 00:37:21.679 who have that kind of balance where they're like, I want to work on 519 00:37:22.440 --> 00:37:24.280 stuff on my own. I want to be an you know, an independent 520 00:37:24.320 --> 00:37:29.559 app developer, and they don't want to, you know, be seen as 521 00:37:29.559 --> 00:37:30.960 saying like, oh, please give me money for this, you know, 522 00:37:31.159 --> 00:37:37.440 whatever crappy piece of software I made. But at some point there there reaches 523 00:37:37.440 --> 00:37:42.880 a threshold of quality where the thing that you've been working on for years is 524 00:37:42.920 --> 00:37:45.760 now good enough that people maybe should be paying for it, but you just 525 00:37:45.800 --> 00:37:50.079 haven't been charging and how do you start and how do you make that shift? 526 00:37:50.280 --> 00:37:52.159 And well, yeah, and suddenly you get in that situation where it's 527 00:37:52.199 --> 00:37:57.440 like, now you get yelled at verybody because you've changed the rules. Right, 528 00:37:57.440 --> 00:37:59.239 It's like, hey, a lot of people depend on this thing I've 529 00:37:59.280 --> 00:38:01.320 been given away from years and they want me to work on it more so 530 00:38:01.480 --> 00:38:06.199 I need to be paid. Now you're the bad guy, right. And 531 00:38:06.519 --> 00:38:09.719 we saw this happen with the identity server guys yep, right, where where 532 00:38:10.000 --> 00:38:14.679 their customers were largely saying, please charge us for this. We want to 533 00:38:15.000 --> 00:38:17.679 want a different relationship with you. It was others that were complaining, this 534 00:38:17.840 --> 00:38:21.800 is bait and switch. It's like pretty much the opposite of bait and switch. 535 00:38:21.840 --> 00:38:24.719 They were driven into it, right. And the last show I listened 536 00:38:24.719 --> 00:38:29.840 to, I think it was the Fiddler Defindler guys, and they were talking 537 00:38:29.840 --> 00:38:34.800 about how the original core product stays, but they did a bunch of work 538 00:38:34.920 --> 00:38:38.880 on a new thing and surprise, surprise, it costs money because it should 539 00:38:39.039 --> 00:38:42.599 cost money. Yeah, because it costs money. You know, Eric Lawrence 540 00:38:42.599 --> 00:38:45.320 isn't even involved in Fiddler anymore. You know, he's moved on to other 541 00:38:45.360 --> 00:38:49.639 things. He went to Telerek with it and they've been taking care of it 542 00:38:49.679 --> 00:38:52.280 ever since. And I think for him partly it was getting out from under 543 00:38:52.280 --> 00:38:55.360 an obligation too. And I think it really at the company's progress now, 544 00:38:55.360 --> 00:39:00.760 so I know, keep calling it tele but they have I think wisely said 545 00:39:00.840 --> 00:39:02.800 Okay, well, this came to us as open source, We're going to 546 00:39:02.880 --> 00:39:07.039 keep it as open source, but we can build other things around it, 547 00:39:07.639 --> 00:39:09.840 and those things they can charge for, yeah, as they should. And 548 00:39:09.880 --> 00:39:15.360 I think creators, ultimately, at the end of the day, creators should 549 00:39:15.360 --> 00:39:20.360 have the choice. And I think a healthy ecosystem surrounding apps and tools and 550 00:39:20.480 --> 00:39:24.960 packages and frameworks, and a healthy attitude toward paying for the things that we 551 00:39:25.119 --> 00:39:29.400 use. Paying for the stuff that makes us money is a good thing, 552 00:39:29.559 --> 00:39:32.719 and I think it enables more people to take on more projects full time. 553 00:39:34.400 --> 00:39:38.000 We shouldn't have to be working on a product nights and weekends for ten years 554 00:39:38.320 --> 00:39:44.400 before we can finally make version two closed source and make a job out of 555 00:39:44.400 --> 00:39:47.639 it. I just feel like that's such a long time to expect people to 556 00:39:47.719 --> 00:39:52.079 be bootstrapping. And I think it will filter out a very specific kind of 557 00:39:52.079 --> 00:39:57.320 individual who can do that, you know, who has free nights and weekends 558 00:39:57.320 --> 00:40:01.000 for ten years while working another job. I think it will you know, 559 00:40:01.280 --> 00:40:06.599 not have the largest amount of possible entrepreneurs in the space. And I think 560 00:40:06.639 --> 00:40:09.039 that more people building more tools. I think it is a good thing. 561 00:40:10.119 --> 00:40:15.400 Yeah, ultimately, yeah, think of how much isn't getting made because of 562 00:40:15.400 --> 00:40:19.400 that particular battle, right, Yeah, that's the rub, isn't it? 563 00:40:19.800 --> 00:40:24.119 So many things? And it's what have we lost out on just because somebody's 564 00:40:24.559 --> 00:40:30.280 not prepared to make that leap or you know, tries and has problems Like 565 00:40:30.320 --> 00:40:34.480 it's creating business is a different job. Let's talk about the benefit to a 566 00:40:34.559 --> 00:40:37.039 developer for doing an open source project. I mean, I know a lot 567 00:40:37.079 --> 00:40:45.079 of you know, not just beginners, but intermediate level developers who want to 568 00:40:45.119 --> 00:40:47.840 own their skills. And you know, we've always said the best way to 569 00:40:47.880 --> 00:40:52.880 do that is to jump into a project or or try to create something, 570 00:40:52.000 --> 00:40:55.719 get it out there, and you know, see what people say, it's 571 00:40:55.760 --> 00:41:00.559 a very good way to sort of sharpen your teeth, if isn't it to 572 00:41:00.760 --> 00:41:07.079 build a project and fail and reiterate and have get feedback on it and all 573 00:41:07.079 --> 00:41:09.599 that stuff, and before you know it, hey, this is pretty good 574 00:41:09.880 --> 00:41:14.559 and you know, maybe I'm not such a bad developer after all. So 575 00:41:14.639 --> 00:41:21.239 the shift becomes from it goes from you know, learning and getting feedback with 576 00:41:21.400 --> 00:41:27.599 this awesome you know system to do that too. Okay now what right? 577 00:41:27.760 --> 00:41:30.360 Yeah, I mean I can again say firsthand that that too. I mentioned 578 00:41:30.360 --> 00:41:35.920 when it was Caffeinated that I did not make that tool. Originally. That 579 00:41:36.039 --> 00:41:40.239 was an open source project that somebody made in wind forms over I don't know, 580 00:41:40.280 --> 00:41:45.360 probably ten years ten plus years ago, and I saw it and I 581 00:41:45.400 --> 00:41:46.719 was like, oh, it would be cool if this was in the app 582 00:41:46.760 --> 00:41:52.599 store, and so I commented on the tray item right, yeah, the 583 00:41:52.679 --> 00:41:53.679 right interface on it. Yeah. I was like, it would be great 584 00:41:53.679 --> 00:41:57.239 if we could kind of roll this up and do it. And so that 585 00:41:57.320 --> 00:42:00.760 was one of my initial forays into after development and open source, was just 586 00:42:00.840 --> 00:42:05.320 saying this is a cool utility. I bet I could make a little wrapper 587 00:42:05.400 --> 00:42:07.800 around this. And slowly I've evolved it more, changed some of the icons, 588 00:42:07.920 --> 00:42:14.559 upgraded some of the settings. But working an open source is an amazing 589 00:42:14.599 --> 00:42:17.280 way to build a lot of those job skills, a lot of those people 590 00:42:17.360 --> 00:42:22.320 skills that just coding will never build for you. Do you think that in 591 00:42:22.400 --> 00:42:29.440 twenty twenty three it's still possible to build an open source project if you're just 592 00:42:29.559 --> 00:42:34.599 like some unknown developer and you create a giveub account and just put it out 593 00:42:34.639 --> 00:42:39.559 there, that you can actually attract people who will download it and do pull 594 00:42:39.639 --> 00:42:45.400 requests and offer the kind of help that people need when they're just getting into 595 00:42:45.440 --> 00:42:52.320 it. It seems pretty pretty far fetched to me that that's going to happen 596 00:42:52.519 --> 00:42:55.320 without some kind of publicity. Yeah, there's a lot of noise, and 597 00:42:55.760 --> 00:43:00.239 right, I mean to me, that's I mean, as a person who 598 00:43:00.239 --> 00:43:02.159 makes apps, I get a lot of people who come to me and say, 599 00:43:02.159 --> 00:43:05.320 hey, you make apps, can you make I have an idea? 600 00:43:07.360 --> 00:43:12.039 So many times yeah fifty fifty right with my idea, and you implement it 601 00:43:12.079 --> 00:43:15.000 and then we'll split the profits fifty Yeah, yeah, right, right, 602 00:43:15.320 --> 00:43:17.159 So I get a lot of you know, people come to me and say 603 00:43:17.199 --> 00:43:20.280 that, and I'd like to say, you know, make it a spreadsheet 604 00:43:20.280 --> 00:43:22.079 first, you know, make it make sure it's a thing that you a 605 00:43:22.159 --> 00:43:25.719 problem that you have. So there's a bunch of like little core things there, 606 00:43:25.719 --> 00:43:30.400 and I think part of that is find a community of people who have 607 00:43:30.519 --> 00:43:34.440 that problem. The first step one searched the app stores to see if it 608 00:43:34.440 --> 00:43:37.800 already exists, because nine times out of ten it done. Yea, yeah, 609 00:43:37.920 --> 00:43:39.360 I know you mean like this, Yeah, you mean one of these, 610 00:43:39.800 --> 00:43:45.400 right, it has been done. Yeah. But establishing that there is 611 00:43:45.400 --> 00:43:49.039 a community of individuals who have this problem, right is you know, number 612 00:43:49.079 --> 00:43:52.679 one whether or not a business will ever work. Yeah. But that also 613 00:43:52.719 --> 00:43:55.960 helps for you know, go to that subreddit, go to that Twitter thread, 614 00:43:57.039 --> 00:44:00.960 or find that Mastodon server and kind of poke those people and say, 615 00:44:00.960 --> 00:44:04.559 hey, I made this thing for you, you know, for us here 616 00:44:04.599 --> 00:44:08.559 it is. It's free, um, maybe to start, but I don't 617 00:44:08.599 --> 00:44:12.960 know if it is possible. I mean, you know, if if a 618 00:44:13.000 --> 00:44:17.960 new open source project gets started and get out this anyone ever here. Yeah. 619 00:44:19.000 --> 00:44:23.159 In the in the world of like Silicon Valley startups, they say they 620 00:44:23.239 --> 00:44:29.039 use the term minimal viable product, and often the minimum viable product is a 621 00:44:29.079 --> 00:44:32.480 web page that says sign up for more and yes, right, you just 622 00:44:32.639 --> 00:44:37.400 describe the problem, and when they click on the link to get it, 623 00:44:37.400 --> 00:44:39.239 it says, hey, we're still working on this, but signed give us 624 00:44:39.239 --> 00:44:42.920 your email address. We'll notify you when there's something to look at. It's 625 00:44:42.960 --> 00:44:49.440 basically a wrapper around system dot not implemented exception, Yes, except it's you 626 00:44:49.480 --> 00:44:52.599 know, pointed pointed at a mail chip account or something like that. So 627 00:44:52.639 --> 00:44:57.320 you're just collecting email addresses. But you've created a threshold then for people to 628 00:44:57.480 --> 00:45:00.599 at least have clicked twice and give and up some information, which gives you 629 00:45:00.679 --> 00:45:05.880 some idea of an interest level and a topic based on the copy you wrote. 630 00:45:06.719 --> 00:45:09.119 You know, there's another level that says, will people install your code 631 00:45:09.360 --> 00:45:13.199 and actually take it out for a spin? And another level that says, 632 00:45:13.320 --> 00:45:16.119 will people pay for that code? Yeah, here's another dilemma and I ran 633 00:45:16.199 --> 00:45:22.119 into this too. You're using some commercial software and the file format is open, 634 00:45:22.199 --> 00:45:29.119 it's XML whatever. It's easy to engineer, reverse engineer, and it 635 00:45:29.159 --> 00:45:32.480 doesn't have a certain feature that you need, right, So you write a 636 00:45:32.519 --> 00:45:37.760 program, an open source program that does this with an external UI or whatever, 637 00:45:38.440 --> 00:45:40.360 and then you put it out there and say, hey, this is 638 00:45:40.360 --> 00:45:43.639 the greatest thing because I can use an and do this in the blah blah 639 00:45:43.639 --> 00:45:45.079 blah blah blah. And everybody's like, oh, yeah, that's really cool. 640 00:45:45.119 --> 00:45:47.960 I'll download that and they use it, and then the next version it's 641 00:45:49.000 --> 00:45:52.559 in there. It's a feature of the product, right right, You get 642 00:45:52.559 --> 00:45:58.679 sherlocked? Is that the term? Man? Yeah, so you know there's 643 00:45:58.679 --> 00:46:02.199 an old reference for you. Yeah. Chances if you're smart and you realize 644 00:46:02.239 --> 00:46:06.840 that there's a flaw in a product, chances are they're already working on it. 645 00:46:07.559 --> 00:46:10.039 Yeah, you would presume. Yeah. I mean I think that's another 646 00:46:10.360 --> 00:46:16.360 element that unfortunately maybe needs to be set out loud, which is not every 647 00:46:16.519 --> 00:46:22.360 open source project deserves to be someone's full time job, right right. And 648 00:46:22.559 --> 00:46:24.840 I don't want to Yeah, again, I don't want to come off saying 649 00:46:24.920 --> 00:46:29.719 like if you look at a piece of code, you should be paying for 650 00:46:29.840 --> 00:46:35.119 it. Definitely not. But I do think that there should be. And 651 00:46:35.199 --> 00:46:38.119 there's a lot of stuff that a lot of big actors in this space can 652 00:46:38.159 --> 00:46:45.360 do to make doing open source easier, making it a career easier, and 653 00:46:45.519 --> 00:46:50.400 being at you know, an independent creator of software whatever format is, it 654 00:46:50.480 --> 00:46:55.239 should be and can be much easier, surfacing the reality to these companies that 655 00:46:55.519 --> 00:47:00.599 this is the open source stuff you're depending on, These lines of code written 656 00:47:00.599 --> 00:47:05.840 by a volunteer developer or run x many times per day inside of your organization. 657 00:47:06.719 --> 00:47:09.760 Kick them ten bucks for crime all right, right, like come on, 658 00:47:10.280 --> 00:47:14.199 and because that's enough that would add up? Right? Yeah, you 659 00:47:14.239 --> 00:47:22.519 know it's but you're that tooling to make it a visibility things there would I 660 00:47:22.519 --> 00:47:27.920 think help because people people, when confronted with the truth usually you know, 661 00:47:28.079 --> 00:47:30.880 embrace it to some degree at least it's on their mind just right now, 662 00:47:30.960 --> 00:47:36.960 it's easy to ignore. The software is free, like beer, so I 663 00:47:37.079 --> 00:47:42.880 just downloaded it using it whatever, ye right, yeah, no, I 664 00:47:42.880 --> 00:47:45.159 I have, you know, several different tools in the app store. I 665 00:47:45.199 --> 00:47:49.360 have Textcribe, I have Caffeinated, I have a simple icon FileMaker, I 666 00:47:49.440 --> 00:47:52.039 have Encounter, I have a couple. And of all those tools, the 667 00:47:52.079 --> 00:47:59.159 most popular one, by a ridiculous margin, is a Windows caffeinated, the 668 00:47:59.199 --> 00:48:02.679 one that keeps mind me, the little tray icon it keeps your machine awake, 669 00:48:04.960 --> 00:48:10.480 is ten times more popular than the next one. It's other ways around 670 00:48:10.519 --> 00:48:15.239 that, like tell your can't I just set my power, set power settings 671 00:48:15.239 --> 00:48:22.159 and never turn off the screen. Sure, but the question maybe is why 672 00:48:22.360 --> 00:48:24.239 are people are still so you can set it to like an eight hour timer. 673 00:48:24.400 --> 00:48:28.039 So I think that's what a lot of people do right now, Okay, 674 00:48:28.199 --> 00:48:30.880 say I'm going to click this at the beginning of the day. I 675 00:48:31.000 --> 00:48:37.960 want my laptop to stay on for eight hours and then it can then do 676 00:48:37.000 --> 00:48:42.000 its normal thing after that. Right. Well, what another problem is if 677 00:48:42.000 --> 00:48:45.199 you don't keep your computer on, it won't install updates. See that's true. 678 00:48:45.280 --> 00:48:49.639 So here's the problem that I have, especially with people who don't understand 679 00:48:49.679 --> 00:48:52.320 computers. We get on to do a podcast, they open up their laptop 680 00:48:52.360 --> 00:48:58.360 and it says, oh, you need to reinstall Windows or install some update, 681 00:48:58.400 --> 00:49:00.079 and you're like, all right, we'll do that afterwards, right, 682 00:49:00.199 --> 00:49:04.559 And then they don't, and then it keeps just popping up. Yeah. 683 00:49:04.639 --> 00:49:07.000 Yeah, happens over and over again. If you have the option to do 684 00:49:07.039 --> 00:49:09.559 it afterwards. I don't care what you're doing. Oh yeah, I'm up. 685 00:49:09.840 --> 00:49:15.599 I've had that problem. Discuss you remember when you had a plan. 686 00:49:15.159 --> 00:49:21.599 Yeah, you should forget about that plan. Here's your plan reboot. M 687 00:49:22.559 --> 00:49:25.000 oh wait another reboot. Yeah. Well it's like, yeah, you do 688 00:49:25.039 --> 00:49:29.320 all your work on your laptop as fast as you can. You're up late, 689 00:49:29.400 --> 00:49:30.519 you know you need to go to bed. You slam your laptop close, 690 00:49:30.599 --> 00:49:32.920 and you pick it up the next day and you're late and you whip 691 00:49:32.920 --> 00:49:37.119 it open. And that's how your your laptop. It opens, it closes, 692 00:49:37.360 --> 00:49:40.519 So there's no there's no window for any sort of maintenance on that machine. 693 00:49:40.719 --> 00:49:44.280 No, not a bit. Have you guys had the problem where you 694 00:49:44.440 --> 00:49:46.679 shut your laptop down expecting it to go sleep or whatever, You put it 695 00:49:46.679 --> 00:49:50.519 in your bag and you take a flight or whatever, you pull it out, 696 00:49:50.599 --> 00:49:52.840 it's like piping hot and it's been on the all time. Yep. 697 00:49:53.719 --> 00:49:57.280 I've stuck a couple of eggmy muffins beside it, two to keep them warm, 698 00:49:57.519 --> 00:49:59.400 you know, while I was traveling. See now that and now I 699 00:49:59.480 --> 00:50:02.760 were thinking think in a nice pack. No, yeah, but that's the 700 00:50:04.039 --> 00:50:08.000 bigger thing is realizing the battery has been murdered absolutely, like it's just and 701 00:50:08.400 --> 00:50:13.719 you know, just what kind of cooking is going on inside that laptop that 702 00:50:13.960 --> 00:50:16.719 but you know you're in a Let's be clear that this is not a problem 703 00:50:16.719 --> 00:50:21.719 with Max because exactly one vendor makes the hardware and the operating system and so 704 00:50:21.800 --> 00:50:25.079 forth. So Sleep on a Mac works flawless because of the mixture of vendors 705 00:50:25.079 --> 00:50:30.960 and drivers and so forth in the Windows ecosystem. Ye, sleep is it's 706 00:50:30.039 --> 00:50:35.480 kind of random. You just it's one layer versus twelve layers, yeah, 707 00:50:35.599 --> 00:50:39.840 or something on one chain of command versus you're trying to persuade all these different 708 00:50:39.840 --> 00:50:43.599 companies to do the right thing. You know, It's like, why didn't 709 00:50:43.599 --> 00:50:47.000 my machine sleep? Because the nick thought it still needed to stay alive, 710 00:50:47.039 --> 00:50:50.880 so it was delaying the shut down. And then the command that would normally 711 00:50:50.880 --> 00:50:52.679 turn this nick off so it could have shut down, that thing did shut 712 00:50:52.679 --> 00:50:57.440 down. So now it's stuck in an infinite lobertil you ribot right, like 713 00:50:57.559 --> 00:51:01.039 wow, And then you add on the corporate layer, and then you get 714 00:51:01.039 --> 00:51:07.199 fifteen more applications and policies and yeah, that's yeah. You don't have access 715 00:51:07.239 --> 00:51:09.719 to change your power operation right, your power rules and so forth. But 716 00:51:09.800 --> 00:51:15.320 it will let you install a little sistray app that bypasses all that. No 717 00:51:15.400 --> 00:51:21.639 problem, your back welcome. That's great. It's a great little workaround. 718 00:51:22.639 --> 00:51:25.599 Why it's such a popular download, my friend, people love it. I 719 00:51:25.599 --> 00:51:30.079 don't know why, because Windows sucks because you're sticking it to the man. 720 00:51:34.320 --> 00:51:39.760 I got your policy right here in a little free app. But I should 721 00:51:39.760 --> 00:51:45.159 have said that guy five bucks by guy ten, I would send him ten. 722 00:51:45.599 --> 00:51:49.920 It's well, it's also in power toys now, so if you use 723 00:51:50.000 --> 00:51:52.440 power toys, it's power toys a week Sammy's act feature. You go, 724 00:51:52.679 --> 00:51:58.039 that's great. Well, uh, have we missed anything, Joe? Is 725 00:51:58.039 --> 00:52:01.039 there anything else that you want to say or any shout outs to resources or 726 00:52:01.039 --> 00:52:07.519 anything, um, nothing in particular, but I was wondering maybe you guys 727 00:52:07.639 --> 00:52:12.199 had some good shout outs for open source software that you use in your projects 728 00:52:12.320 --> 00:52:15.800 or some good you know, classic open source software that people should check out. 729 00:52:15.840 --> 00:52:19.760 Well, of course I'm going to talk about Polly. Yep, yeah, 730 00:52:19.760 --> 00:52:24.559 as well you should. Polly's like amazing. Yeah, and we're getting 731 00:52:24.599 --> 00:52:29.440 some feedback on a next generation version of Polly that the dot net team at 732 00:52:29.440 --> 00:52:34.519 Microsoft has actually helped us create. Yeah. I have that show on my 733 00:52:34.679 --> 00:52:39.039 radar with Joel. Yeah. Yeah, maybe some others too. Fantastic, 734 00:52:39.360 --> 00:52:46.639 it's it keeps getting better. Polly is some policies for retry, for resilience, 735 00:52:47.239 --> 00:52:52.679 you know, transient error handling, that kind of thing. It's funny 736 00:52:52.719 --> 00:52:58.920 because it's just a giant wrapper around try catch, but it does so many 737 00:52:58.920 --> 00:53:01.800 more things of course. Yeah, it's about smart code, right, you 738 00:53:01.840 --> 00:53:07.159 guys have solved that that recovery problem. Well, so I never need to 739 00:53:07.159 --> 00:53:09.840 write it ever ever ever again? Right, And the way to handle it 740 00:53:09.880 --> 00:53:15.880 is very simple. So anyway, that's that's my my two cents. Of 741 00:53:15.920 --> 00:53:17.519 course, he's a lot of open source software, but that's the one I 742 00:53:17.599 --> 00:53:21.360 would talk about, the one, the one of the open source projects that 743 00:53:21.400 --> 00:53:24.719 I support routine. I actually support it once a year. I send Christian 744 00:53:24.760 --> 00:53:31.599 money. It's it's um WLED. So this is this is a pretty much 745 00:53:31.880 --> 00:53:37.840 written by one guy who it is the software for controlling individually addressable LEDs for 746 00:53:37.960 --> 00:53:40.679 like Christmas thing. He said around Christmas time, when I pull all that 747 00:53:40.800 --> 00:53:45.000 stuff out and set it up again and I update the latest verses that I 748 00:53:45.039 --> 00:53:47.280 make my house full of blinky lights, I'm like, dude, you kick 749 00:53:47.320 --> 00:53:53.639 ass. Here's fifty bucks. It's just because it's so great and it's a 750 00:53:53.639 --> 00:53:57.679 completely open source project now as near as I could tell, like, there's 751 00:53:57.719 --> 00:54:01.480 a lot of hobbyists who do send give some money, and as well they 752 00:54:01.519 --> 00:54:05.800 should. It's a brilliant product. There's no two ways about it. Yeah. 753 00:54:05.880 --> 00:54:07.960 Nice. How about you, Joe? Besides your own projects, what 754 00:54:08.000 --> 00:54:16.239 do you like besides Ma'm proect? Recently I've been poking around with wpf UI, 755 00:54:17.000 --> 00:54:24.199 which is a fluent UI library to make wpf apps look like modern When 756 00:54:24.280 --> 00:54:28.840 Ui three apps. Oh, so I've been playing around with that. I've 757 00:54:28.840 --> 00:54:30.519 been trying to get it to work for text grab. I got some stuff 758 00:54:30.559 --> 00:54:37.440 working. But it's great. It's open source and y'all check it out. 759 00:54:37.599 --> 00:54:40.000 Isn't it funny that you have to use MAUI to get when Ui to do 760 00:54:40.079 --> 00:54:44.920 when Ui app? Yeah, I mean, I mean I can't rebuild at 761 00:54:44.960 --> 00:54:47.639 all, so just use a rapper. I'll include links to all three of 762 00:54:47.679 --> 00:54:51.440 those in the show notes for folks that want to check them out. Good 763 00:54:51.480 --> 00:54:53.639 stuff, Joe, Thank you very much. It's been a pleasure talking to 764 00:54:53.679 --> 00:54:57.280 you. Yeah, thanks for having me, all right, and we'll talk 765 00:54:57.320 --> 00:55:22.880 to you, dear listener next time on dot net Rocks. Dot net Rocks 766 00:55:22.960 --> 00:55:27.559 is brought to you by Franklin's Net and produced by Pop Studios, a full 767 00:55:27.599 --> 00:55:32.159 service audio, video and post production facility located physically in New London, Connecticut, 768 00:55:32.199 --> 00:55:37.639 and of course in the cloud online at pwop dot com. Visit our 769 00:55:37.679 --> 00:55:45.079 website at dt nt r ocks dot com for RSS feeds, downloads, mobile 770 00:55:45.119 --> 00:55:49.360 apps, comments, and access to the full archives going back to show number 771 00:55:49.400 --> 00:55:52.639 one, recorded in September two thousand and two, and make sure you check 772 00:55:52.679 --> 00:55:57.079 out our sponsors. They keep us in business. Now, go write some 773 00:55:57.199 --> 00:56:08.280 code. CNX time tread Mettle band buys summer times hard than my taxes. 774 00:56:08.840 --> 00:56:10.079 I haven't gone