WEBVTT

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This episode of The Apex and the
Abyss contains graphic descriptions, audio and language

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that may be unsettling to some individuals. Listener discretion is advised. Have you

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ever wondered where saying originated from?
The phrase that is coming to mind during

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this particular moment is don't judge a
book by its cover. This phrase appears

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in the African Journal American Speech in
nineteen forty four for the first time.

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However, the phrase was a little
bit different. Back then. It went

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you can't judge a book by its
bindings. Over time it has evolved to

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its current form. It is a
very simple phrase that is fairly self explanatory.

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Don't judge the outside against the inside. A person can look tattered,

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broken and even a little bit mean, but have a heart of gold.

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On the flip side, A person
can look kind, innocent and unsuspecting,

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but have a streak of evil in
darkness within them that not even those closest

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to them ever knew about it until
it was too late. You're listening to

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The Apex and the Abyss, and
this is the story of Dorothea Puente.

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Authorities say they'll go for the death
penalty, and the trial of a landlady

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suspected of killing seven boarding home tenants. A Sacramento judge today, I reign

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Dorothea Puente on one murder account.
Prosecutors say additional murder charges will be at

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it. Puente did not enter a
police and as being held tonight without bail.

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Police named the x con as a
suspect that they're finding seven bodies buried

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in the art of her sacramental boarding
house. Authorities say Puente killed her tenants

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for their social Security checks. Dorothea
Puente is a perfect example of the whole

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don't judge by its cover mentality.
Our story takes place in nineteen eighty eight.

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Dorothea was about sixty years old and
she ran a boarding house in Sacramento,

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California. On the outside, the
petite, older woman looked like a

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sweet little grandma. She took people
into the boarding house she lived in and

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always seemed to offer a helping hand. However, all of this was just

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a cover. You see, Dorothia
Poente was a schemer and she was also

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a serial killer. But before we
get into what Dorothea became, let's go

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back to the beginning. Do you
really think I'm a jilty do you want

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to be truthful with You're going to
be real truthful with you. Dorothia.

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I think you had somehow you're involved
in it. Dorothia was born on January

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ninth, nineteen twenty nine, in
red Lands, California, which is located

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near San Bernardino. Dorothea was the
sixth child out of seven born to Jesse

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and Trudy Gray, though there are
reports that state that Dorothea was one of

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eighteen children. However, this cannot
be proven. What you will discover about

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Dorothea Puente is that not only is
she a cold and calculated murderer, but

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she is also a pathological liar.
What we do know about Dorothea thanks to

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actual documentation, is that, unfortunately, she did not grow up in a

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loving and stable home. Her family
had very little money, and her parents

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were quite abusive to their children,
so much so that Dorothea's mother would eventually

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lose custody of her children due to
her alcohol abuse and apparent child abandonment.

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When Dorothea was just eight years old, her father would die of tuberculosis,

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and soon after her mother would be
killed in a motorcycle accident, orphaning Dorothea

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and all of her siblings. Not
much can be said for what happened to

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her siblings after the tragedy, but
we do know that Dorothea would go between

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foster homes and other relatives all throughout
her teenage years. She would even spend

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time in homes for orphans children,
where she stated she was sexually abused.

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In nineteen forty five, Dorothea was
around sixteen years old and she was tired

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of being shuffled around California, so
she made her way to Olympia, Washington,

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by herself to start a new life. To survive on her own and

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to earn income, she would dive
into sex work and that is where she

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would encounter and meet her first husband, Fred McFall. Fred and Dorothea would

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get married fast and head to Nevada
to start their family, but this relationship

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was not all sunshine and rainbows.
Within two years of the couple's union,

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they would have two children. However, Dorothea had zero interest in being a

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mother. It is said that one
child was given to relatives of the couple

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and the other was put up for
adoption. More conflicting reports would appear when

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it comes to what caused Dorothea and
Fred's relationship to end in nineteen forty eight.

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Some articles suggest that the couple split, other state that Fred mc fall

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allegedly died of a heart attack.
Either way, after the end of the

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relationship, Dorothea would leave Nevada and
head back to her California roots. Once

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she returned to the San Bernardino area, Dorothea's life of crime would commence soon

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after she moved back to California.
She would try to pass bad checks under

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an alias name. This crime would
land her a few months in jail.

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Once she was released, she was
placed on probation. One of the guidelines

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of her release was that she would
have to stay within Riverside County, California,

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but she left the area anyway.
It is rumored that during this time

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she would give birth to another child
and place this baby up for adoption as

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well. At some point, young
Dorothea would head to San Francisco. By

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nineteen fifty two, she would meet
and marry a man by the name of

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Axel Johansson. Axel was from Sweden, and those who knew him would describe

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him as tough. Axel and Dorothea
were together for a grand total of fourteen

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years and their relationship was nothing short
of violent. The pair fought verbally and

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physically on a near daily basis.
It got so bad that at one point

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Axel would have Dorothea sent to a
mental institution where she was evaluated and put

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on anti psychotic medication. While they
were together, Dorothea would have extramarital affairs,

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as well as abuse alcohol and gamble
constantly. She would also be arrested

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for running a brothel and sacramento.
This didnt in jail would only last ninety

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days, but practically as soon as
she left, she went right back to

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jail on another charge, this time
again for ninety days. It seemed as

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though whenever Dorothea landed herself in jail, she would tell those who inquired as

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to where she had gone for such
a long amount of time that she simply

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had gone out of town to visit
a friend. Lying was something that came

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natural to Dorothea. In nineteen sixty
six, after years of instability and violence,

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Axel and Dorothea would get divorced.
Two years later, she would marry

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a man by the name of Roberto
Puente. Roberto was quite a few years

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younger than Dorothea. There are a
few conflicting reports about the age difference as

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well, so to err on the
side of caution, let's just say that

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he was about fifteen to twenty years
her junior. At the time of her

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third marriage, Dorothea was around thirty
nine years old, yet she looked much

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older than her actual age. Dorothea
herself and time were not kind, and

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her turbulent life showed on her face. It is said that her new husband

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used marriage as a way to obtain
citizenship in America, and that it was

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quite a loveless union. The couple
would only stay together for about two years

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before separating. Soon after the end
of this relationship, Dorothia would begin operating

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a boarding house in Sacramento, California, on F Street. Dorothea would have

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some back ground in running and caring
for individuals in a boarding house. When

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she wasn't in jail or prison,
she would work as a nurse's aid.

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She would typically work in and out
of the person's home and assist with whatever

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they needed. The house on F
Street was around eighteen hundred square feet give

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or take a few a decent amount
of space, especially if you planned on

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taking in people who simply needed a
roof over their head. Dorothea would take

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in older individuals as well as people
who were homeless and disabled. On the

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outside, it seemed as though Dorothea
was providing a great and commendable service for

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her community, helping those in need
in giving her home, time, and

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heart to those who needed it.
But what did we say at the beginning

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of this episode, don't judge a
book by its cover. While the cover

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of this story, especially going into
it without knowing anything about who Dorothea Puente

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was, it seemed like a great
tale. But diving into it, this

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story is about to turn into a
legend of horror land. Lady of a

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boarding house so rested in connection with
the murder of seven of her tenants.

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What Dorothia like to do was abuse
the power that she had over those who

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lived in her boarding house. She
would take their money, whether it be

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by social Security check or what have
you. She felt as though she was

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entitled to it, so she would
either steal it or have them handed over

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to her. What needs to be
understood is that Dorothea and this home,

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for some of the individuals who lived
there, was all that they had.

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Things began to get increasingly odd and
hostile. In the boarding house, Dorothia

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would hire a man who is a
known alcoholic and a transient. He would

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do handywork around the home on Epstreet
until one day he simply disappeared, never

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to be seen or heard from again. By the mid seventies, Dorothea would

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get married yet again, this time
to a man named Pedro Montalvough. Pedro

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was not a good man and was
known his abusive ways. This relationship did

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not last very long, and once
it was over, Dorothea would spend a

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lot of her time at the bars
in her neighborhood. Perhaps she was drowning

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her sorrows, or maybe just maybe
she was on the hunt. While in

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these bars, Dorothea would sweet talk
some of the men that frequented the establishments.

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Ultimately, she would obtain certain bits
of information she needed from them and

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would then begin stealing their benefits that
they would receive from the government. Once

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she had that check in hand,
she would forge their signatures and cash them.

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This was her game, and shockingly, she was good at it,

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but not too good, because eventually
she would be caught and charged with over

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thirty counts of treasury fraud, and
she was given five years probation. The

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fact that she was caught doing a
serious crime and that her criminal record was

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constantly growing, it didn't matter to
her, nor did it stop her from

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stealing all the people around her.
What's interesting is that those who lived at

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the boarding house during all this were
completely divided on how they felt about her.

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Some loathed Dorothea and hated living there, but they had little to know

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other options. Dorothea was known for
stealing the occupant's mail that she dealt with.

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It seems as though some would Knowgus
more than others would, and those

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who knows would go head to head
with her quite often about it. And

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then on the other side of the
coin, there were those who spoke nothing

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but praises when it came to Dorothea
and how she treated them. How is

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it that one person can master the
appearance of both a generous and thieving person.

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It is very curious as to why
she picked and chose which ones saw

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each side of her, though the
people she tended to be terrible to were

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the ones who would call her out
on her shady behavior, so maybe it's

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not too confusing after all. In
nineteen eighty two, Dorothea's behavior would take

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a different turn with new occupants coming
into the boarding house. She saw it

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as more dollars lining her pocket,
and somewhere along the way, she decided

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that if they didn't give her the
money she wanted, then they would have

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to die. Sixty one year old
Ruth Munroe moved into the boarding house in

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April of nineteen eighty two. A
little over two weeks after Ruth had moved

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in, she was dead. She
had overdosed on a mixture of tylonnoll and

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codine. When the police and the
ambulance were called to the scene, Dorothea

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would tell them about Ruth's struggles that
she had heard about over the course of

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her stay at the boarding house.
Ruth, according to Dorothea, was extremely

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depressed due to the fact that her
husband was terminally ill. Those investigating Ruth's

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death believed the story and jotted down
the tragedy as suicide. It was a

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plausible story. There was no way
that a sweet woman like Dorothea Puente would

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have anything to do with her death. It wouldn't be long before the police

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were knocking on Dorothea's door again.
In fact, it was only within a

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matter of weeks seventy four year old
Malcolm mackenzie would contact police after Dorothea drugged

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him while at his apartment after a
night of drinking. Malcolm was incredibly dizzy

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and lethargic due to whatever Dorothea had
slipped him. However, the entire time

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he could see what she was doing
in his apartment, but he was just

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unable to stop her due to the
drugs. Dorothea began rummaging through his belongings

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and would wind up taking his rare
penny collection and a ring that he was

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wearing. In August of nineteen eighty
two, Dorothea would be convicted for the

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crime and she was sentenced to five
years in prison. Because Dorothea was in

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and out of custody throughout the duration
of her life, going back to prison

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was not a difficult adjustment for her. However, at one point during this

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stint in prison, she would find
herself at the end of a vicious beating

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from fellow inmates. Dorothea had hold
of guard information regarding a separate attack that

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occurred in the facility earlier. When
the inmates found this out, they made

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Dorothea pay for telling the guard the
truth. Due to her injuries and concern

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for her safety, Dorothia was moved
to protective custody. While in the new

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areas, she received a letter from
a man named Everson Gilmouth. Everson had

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an interesting hobby of writing incarcerated women. Over time, this random relationship blossomed.

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After three years, Dorothea would be
released early from her sentence and Everson

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was the person who picked her up
from prison. After her release, she

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returned to the boarding house. In
her absence, he took care of the

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house for her, but now she
was back. Towards the end of nineteen

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eighty five, Dorothia Poente hired a
handyman by the name of Ismael Flores.

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Aside from doing things around her home, Dorothea asked Flores to build her a

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box six feet long, three f
wide, and two feet deep. She

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told him she needed it for storage. Flora's liked Dorothea. She paid him

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well and even sold him a car
that belonged to her boyfriend Everson. She

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claimed that he no longer needed the
vehicle. She was good to him,

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so her wish was his command.
After building the box, Dorothea filled it

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and nailed its shut. She would
then ask Flora's to take it to the

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local storage place. While on the
way, Dorothea told Flora's to drive to

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a nearby river bank. She then
asked him to take the box and dump

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it there instead. At this Flora's
finally questioned the whole situation. It seemed

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odd that he was building such a
large box, and it was a mystery

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as to what Dorothea was putting in
it. Dorothea simply explained that what was

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in the box was nothing valuable and
should have been thrown out in the first

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place. Trusting her story, he
believed her and didn't question her anymore on

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the matter. However, a few
months later, two fishermen were walking along

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the river bank when a foul smell
was carried towards them on the wind,

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the smell of rot, decay,
and death. The smell was coming from

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a large box that was half submerged
in the water. The two fishermen would

203
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not touch the box, but instead
called the police to have them investigated instead.

204
00:16:14.679 --> 00:16:18.399
When authorities opened the box, they
found the remains of Everson Gilmouth,

205
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Dorothea's prison penpal turned boyfriend. Everson
was wrapped in a bedsheet and the only

206
00:16:25.759 --> 00:16:30.279
clothing on his body were his underwear
and he had been bound with electrical tape.

207
00:16:32.200 --> 00:16:36.639
Police were unable to determine his identity
at the time, so for years

208
00:16:36.759 --> 00:16:40.480
Everson was just another John Doe,
waiting for his name to be returned to

209
00:16:40.559 --> 00:16:45.559
him. Everson Gilmouth was never reported
as missing. Dorothea was collecting his pension

210
00:16:45.720 --> 00:16:51.279
and his Social Security money on a
monthly basis, and would tell anyone who

211
00:16:51.320 --> 00:16:55.480
asked about him via letter or phone
call that he had either fallen ill or

212
00:16:55.600 --> 00:16:59.519
was out of town, and that
was the explanation as to why they had

213
00:16:59.559 --> 00:17:04.559
not heard from him in a while. After Everson's murder, Dorothea kept all

214
00:17:04.599 --> 00:17:10.279
moving. She was unfazed by her
actions and only had one thing on her

215
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mind. Money, where it was
coming from, how much she was going

216
00:17:14.799 --> 00:17:18.759
to get, and how quickly could
she spend it. The boarding house was

217
00:17:18.799 --> 00:17:22.000
at capacity and Dorothea was up to
her normal schemes of hoarding the mail from

218
00:17:22.000 --> 00:17:26.319
her tenants. It would not be
long before Dorothea's actions would become suspicious to

219
00:17:26.359 --> 00:17:30.680
everyone around her. It seemed as
though people would just up and vanish around

220
00:17:30.680 --> 00:17:37.839
her constantly, with no rhyme,
reason or explanation. The only story inquiring

221
00:17:37.880 --> 00:17:42.440
minds would get would come from Dorothea's
lips and hers alone. Betty Palmer and

222
00:17:42.559 --> 00:17:48.039
Leona Carpenter were two women who,
within weeks of calling the boarding house on

223
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F Street home, would disappear without
a trace. James Gallup was another occupant

224
00:17:52.559 --> 00:17:56.480
that would never be heard from again. In July of nineteen eighty seven,

225
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he moved into the house on F
Street after having brain surgery, and that

226
00:18:00.279 --> 00:18:04.279
was the last anyone had ever heard
from him. A few months later,

227
00:18:04.480 --> 00:18:08.839
Vera Martin would take up residence in
the boarding house run by Dorothea Puente,

228
00:18:08.960 --> 00:18:15.519
and Vera would vanish. In February
of nineteen eighty eight. Bert Montoya claimed

229
00:18:15.559 --> 00:18:19.599
a bed in Dorothea's boarding house.
She basically took over his entire life the

230
00:18:19.680 --> 00:18:25.160
second he moved in. All of
his affairs, especially his money, was

231
00:18:25.240 --> 00:18:30.680
taken care of by Dorothea. But
just like the aforementioned residence, he too

232
00:18:30.680 --> 00:18:34.680
would disappear without a trace. When
people asked about him, Dorothea said that

233
00:18:34.720 --> 00:18:40.839
he went to Mexico to visit his
family. Bert's disappearance would be the straw

234
00:18:40.960 --> 00:18:45.160
that broke the camel's back when it
comes to Dorothea's long list of crimes,

235
00:18:45.480 --> 00:18:49.079
However, unbeknownst to her, people
were already suspecting her. Of the worst

236
00:18:51.160 --> 00:18:55.920
complaints would come in about Dorothea's stealing
money from those she cared for, despite

237
00:18:55.960 --> 00:18:59.480
the fact that she had a criminal
record that indicated that she knows how to

238
00:18:59.519 --> 00:19:03.519
do things, and the fact that
she was blatantly doing it all the time,

239
00:19:03.039 --> 00:19:08.680
The investigators found these complaints unwarranted.
On November seventh, nineteen eighty eight,

240
00:19:08.720 --> 00:19:14.920
a missing person's report was filed in
regards to Bert Montoya. Police would

241
00:19:14.960 --> 00:19:18.880
follow up on the complaint and went
to Dorothea's house. They questioned her and

242
00:19:18.960 --> 00:19:22.599
briefly looked around the home, and
Dorothea would give them the same story she

243
00:19:22.680 --> 00:19:26.599
had given the others, that Montoya
had gone to Mexico to visit family.

244
00:19:26.359 --> 00:19:32.119
While at the house, the police
questioned other occupants about Bert's whereabouts. One

245
00:19:32.119 --> 00:19:34.960
of them would slip the officer a
note that stated something along the lines of

246
00:19:36.039 --> 00:19:41.160
Dorothea asking people to lie for her
to cover up something She was lying and

247
00:19:41.279 --> 00:19:45.920
now the police knew that there was
something far more nefarious going on in this

248
00:19:45.000 --> 00:19:49.559
boarding house than Dorothea was letting up. A few days later, the officers

249
00:19:49.599 --> 00:19:53.400
returned to the house with a warrant
to thoroughly search the house and dig up

250
00:19:53.440 --> 00:19:59.119
the garden. During the search,
the police would find seven bodies buried in

251
00:19:59.160 --> 00:20:03.039
the backyard. Dorothea would be brought
in for questioning regarding the bodies found in

252
00:20:03.039 --> 00:20:11.799
her yard. What you're about to
hear are snippets from that interview. Okay,

253
00:20:11.960 --> 00:20:15.200
Dorothea, first question is how long
have you actually lived at that residence.

254
00:20:17.240 --> 00:20:18.839
I think I lived there in seventy
eight that I was in prison for

255
00:20:21.839 --> 00:20:25.799
from I mean I was Okay,
there's in cars Roy from May to nineteenth,

256
00:20:26.319 --> 00:20:34.680
nineteen seventy eight eighty two until September
ninth, eighty five. Okay,

257
00:20:34.720 --> 00:20:38.799
so you actually started living here in
nineteen seventy eight, and you lived there

258
00:20:38.839 --> 00:20:44.200
until nineteen eighty two, until May
when you were sent away, and then

259
00:20:44.200 --> 00:20:47.400
you got out in September nineteen eighty
five, and you've lived there ever since.

260
00:20:47.680 --> 00:20:52.680
Okay, I was hunt to prison
in September eighty two. I obviously

261
00:20:52.720 --> 00:21:00.160
find thirty excuse me, obvious nineteen. I was in Carson Rated from May

262
00:21:00.240 --> 00:21:07.400
to nineteenth on. From so from
nineteen seventeen nineteen eighty two, you lived

263
00:21:07.440 --> 00:21:12.240
there and was there do you remember
who lived there before you. No,

264
00:21:14.319 --> 00:21:18.599
you don't remember. I've only had
the downstairs for a year. Well,

265
00:21:18.640 --> 00:21:22.759
I mean I don't. I don't
have the downstairs. I in my nephew.

266
00:21:23.480 --> 00:21:30.839
He lived there before. What's his
name, Ricardo Puerto Rico. All

267
00:21:30.000 --> 00:21:37.640
our people are I see, does
he live in Sacramento? Yes, I

268
00:21:37.640 --> 00:21:47.400
don't remember the policy about fifty something. He's in pacto too. He's the

269
00:21:47.440 --> 00:21:52.680
owner of the property. And you
leased the property. Well, I pay

270
00:21:52.799 --> 00:21:56.880
monthly events, you know, okay, But they kept they remembered the place

271
00:21:56.920 --> 00:22:00.279
out while I was on the utility
stayed in money. So the utilities of

272
00:22:00.359 --> 00:22:04.519
the property are in your name.
Who pays taxes on it? He paid

273
00:22:04.519 --> 00:22:07.359
it. So you paid the all
utilities on the properties in your name,

274
00:22:10.519 --> 00:22:15.880
and you have a verbal agreement lead
that you are to live there and maintain

275
00:22:15.960 --> 00:22:18.880
and take care of the property.
When I was born, he ran in

276
00:22:18.039 --> 00:22:29.079
my apartment out killed. So you
have you have Dorothea Montalvo, and you're

277
00:22:29.119 --> 00:22:34.759
also Dorothea Wenday. I was born, I was married to I was married.

278
00:22:37.039 --> 00:22:41.359
You were born Montalbo right one day? Where were you born? California?

279
00:22:44.240 --> 00:22:48.759
The investigator presents a very shaken Dorothea
with the facts. Her stories weren't

280
00:22:48.799 --> 00:22:52.279
matching up, and they were glaring
inconsistencies to what she was saying versus what

281
00:22:52.400 --> 00:23:00.000
everyone else was claiming in regards to
missing people. The questions we need to

282
00:23:00.119 --> 00:23:03.640
ask you, I need, I
need, I need all the truth from

283
00:23:03.640 --> 00:23:08.039
you. Okay, Number one is
going back, of course. Now this

284
00:23:08.079 --> 00:23:15.599
whole thing got started was because of
this last individual, Montoya. Now his

285
00:23:15.680 --> 00:23:21.839
disappearance is very suspicious. I can
tell you that even the things that you

286
00:23:21.960 --> 00:23:27.960
said didn't even quite connect with what
the other individual polists which he spoke to

287
00:23:27.960 --> 00:23:32.319
you. There are a lot of
inconsistencies in this. Well. You know,

288
00:23:32.480 --> 00:23:34.240
I didn't think I was ever going
to have to remember everything. And

289
00:23:34.400 --> 00:23:37.119
that's fine. I mean, I
can understand that you explain that to us,

290
00:23:38.200 --> 00:23:42.640
But there's just a lot of inconsistencies
also they get in touch with you.

291
00:23:42.720 --> 00:23:47.680
I mean, wasn't that I have
to I have to physical see Now,

292
00:23:47.720 --> 00:23:52.000
as far as the social worker,
he had no relatives known to her

293
00:23:52.079 --> 00:23:56.119
and never mentioned it any, but
he had mentioned at one time that he

294
00:23:56.160 --> 00:24:03.200
wanted to move from your place.
He didn't want to stay there. And

295
00:24:03.480 --> 00:24:07.119
then we talked to mister Sharp and
mister Sharpe says he hasn't seen him for

296
00:24:07.160 --> 00:24:11.680
three months. But you said the
other day social worker hasn't seen so who

297
00:24:11.799 --> 00:24:15.160
is lying to me? Who is
lying to me? Do with you?

298
00:24:17.079 --> 00:24:22.559
But why not? He was there
Saturday and Sunday. How can mister Sharp?

299
00:24:22.680 --> 00:24:26.400
Well, he doesn't need he doesn't
even associate with the arf. Mister

300
00:24:26.480 --> 00:24:30.799
Sharpe also told us that you had
told him to lie. I did not

301
00:24:32.000 --> 00:24:34.559
about saying that he was there,
because he later told us that he him.

302
00:24:36.920 --> 00:24:41.039
In fact, I had asked mister
Sharp to move. When did you

303
00:24:41.079 --> 00:24:49.279
ask him him? Um? I
see he couldn't paid rent one month October

304
00:24:49.359 --> 00:24:55.319
because he needed to all his money
drinking again. I don't know if he

305
00:24:55.480 --> 00:25:00.680
drinks Sunday and that was the second
time that he had done since it's been

306
00:25:00.799 --> 00:25:07.400
there, and it makes it hard
to come up to the ranch. And

307
00:25:07.599 --> 00:25:11.559
I asked him if if he would
move? When? Why would mister Sharp

308
00:25:11.680 --> 00:25:15.240
tell us because he's mad because I'm
making him he hasn't seen it for three

309
00:25:15.240 --> 00:25:19.960
months? Also, Ben, how
long did Ben live there? Just?

310
00:25:21.119 --> 00:25:26.920
Two months? Okay? So Ben
ben Fink lived there two months? Did

311
00:25:26.160 --> 00:25:32.640
obviously? Who did? Uh?
Melvine? Noben? Who Melbourne or John

312
00:25:32.720 --> 00:25:36.599
you called him John you mean Murph? Yeah, how do I say Melvin?

313
00:25:37.160 --> 00:25:38.640
I don't know, because he associated
with him, you know, he

314
00:25:38.640 --> 00:25:42.519
doesn't associated with hiring anybody. But
Ben went Worth's book place. Was Ben

315
00:25:42.559 --> 00:25:48.160
staying at in one of the rooms
by himself, okay, because but he

316
00:25:48.319 --> 00:25:52.920
was coming most of the time,
because he was always out and drinking and

317
00:25:52.519 --> 00:26:00.559
okay, okay, And he was
on he had a bad leg and he

318
00:26:00.599 --> 00:26:04.319
should be go sell his blood every
week down Athan plasm right, And he

319
00:26:04.400 --> 00:26:08.079
said, we're gonna go back to
Marysville. When did you say that?

320
00:26:10.519 --> 00:26:18.200
When I told her he had to
leave? When a couple three months ago,

321
00:26:18.920 --> 00:26:26.359
it was in the summertime, summer
time, I see mister Sharp says

322
00:26:26.400 --> 00:26:33.680
that Ben was missing the same time
as Montoya. The social worker says she

323
00:26:33.759 --> 00:26:37.000
was up in contact with Montoya up
to about three months ago. Okay,

324
00:26:37.400 --> 00:26:41.519
And she says she had not heard
hide nor hair from him. Well,

325
00:26:41.559 --> 00:26:45.920
he really didn't want to see him, but he'd always he'd attempted that he

326
00:26:45.960 --> 00:26:51.519
went to dtox on occasion twice.
Yeah, and he told him a detox

327
00:26:51.559 --> 00:26:55.480
to take me out of your home. I don't want And the social worker

328
00:26:55.559 --> 00:26:57.839
was on very good terms with him
to where she was right and when he

329
00:26:57.880 --> 00:27:00.480
all of a sudden disappeared, she
started thinking, what the heck's going on

330
00:27:00.559 --> 00:27:06.160
here? And then she got the
inconsistent things about you tell me that the

331
00:27:06.160 --> 00:27:08.200
guy was from you didn't know where
he went, And she got a phone

332
00:27:08.200 --> 00:27:11.240
call and she says that you told
her he went to Utah. I mean

333
00:27:11.240 --> 00:27:15.200
there's a lot of things the idea
that I don't understand. I don't know

334
00:27:15.240 --> 00:27:18.359
where the man was going to take
counter, Okay, but I mean there's

335
00:27:18.359 --> 00:27:19.839
a lot You see what I'm saying, there's a lot of inconsistency there,

336
00:27:21.640 --> 00:27:29.119
and it can't explain his disappearance.
It can't now coupled with all of that,

337
00:27:30.359 --> 00:27:34.880
okay, coupled with all of that, and then we come and talk.

338
00:27:34.960 --> 00:27:38.319
Could you put could you put a
tap on my phone and listen to

339
00:27:38.359 --> 00:27:41.960
my conversation, like if they called
me, I would like you to do

340
00:27:42.000 --> 00:27:45.839
that to me for me to be
satisfied, I would have to physically see

341
00:27:45.880 --> 00:27:49.480
that. Well, then, couldn't
shoot once when the call came to couldn't

342
00:27:49.480 --> 00:27:55.559
you monitor all the calls? And
then her tras on the call that I

343
00:27:55.599 --> 00:27:57.559
don't know how that works? Would
be truth with you, because I would

344
00:27:57.680 --> 00:28:03.000
be willing to have that time.
Know, the investigator continues to press her

345
00:28:03.000 --> 00:28:07.279
on Burt Montoya whereabouts? You know. We we go and talk to you.

346
00:28:07.240 --> 00:28:11.640
You're real good about it. And
then we asked you for permission.

347
00:28:11.119 --> 00:28:15.000
You didn't even have to give us
permission to look, but you were cooperating.

348
00:28:15.079 --> 00:28:18.200
You said you gave us permission to
dig around in the yard and look

349
00:28:18.240 --> 00:28:22.880
around. And then we dig and
lo and behold we find what is looks

350
00:28:22.920 --> 00:28:29.119
like the remains of a human being, clothing at all. But if it

351
00:28:29.200 --> 00:28:33.200
was, if it was Alvaro,
you know, no, I don't think

352
00:28:33.200 --> 00:28:37.680
it's Alvaro. I don't think Albarrow
if we was in the ground, would

353
00:28:37.680 --> 00:28:45.000
be that decay or ben think now, I know that the concrete up in

354
00:28:45.039 --> 00:28:48.079
front of the shed hasn't been on
the ground that long. I can tell

355
00:28:49.000 --> 00:28:52.400
you know where the rose bushes are. You put the roses in the little

356
00:28:52.440 --> 00:28:55.559
round circles right in front of the
ship, not in back of the shed

357
00:28:55.559 --> 00:28:59.519
where the garden areas, but in
front there about it? In think there?

358
00:29:00.480 --> 00:29:03.119
How about this last summer? Maybe
you put that down I'm trying to

359
00:29:06.759 --> 00:29:10.200
listen everywhere or something like that,
Okay, because there was a trench there.

360
00:29:10.359 --> 00:29:12.680
There was an open trench there at
one time. Do you remember that

361
00:29:14.440 --> 00:29:17.440
we were looking for star lines.
Okay, So right in front, right

362
00:29:17.480 --> 00:29:19.039
in front of that was an open
trench. And the fact, if my

363
00:29:19.240 --> 00:29:25.279
memory serves me right, that trench
went this way and then along the fence

364
00:29:25.720 --> 00:29:30.279
on the side of that shed.
Am I correct? You mean right where

365
00:29:30.279 --> 00:29:33.160
the concrete is now. Underneath that
concrete there used to be you had a

366
00:29:34.519 --> 00:29:40.079
there was a ditch, a little
ditch. You say you were looking for

367
00:29:40.119 --> 00:29:42.480
sewer. Okay, Now you know
where I'm speaking about. Okay, you

368
00:29:42.519 --> 00:29:47.960
know where the little shit is outdoors, not in the back of the house,

369
00:29:48.039 --> 00:29:49.839
the one on the side of the
Okay, Okay, Let's say the

370
00:29:49.880 --> 00:29:55.240
gardens, the garden is okay,
Let's do it like this. Here's the

371
00:29:55.319 --> 00:29:57.359
garden area okay. And then there's
a concrete here, and then they have

372
00:29:57.400 --> 00:30:00.359
a shed right there, okay.
And then in front of the shed you

373
00:30:00.359 --> 00:30:03.839
have a little bit more concrete with
little circles, and I believe those are

374
00:30:03.839 --> 00:30:07.240
some kind of bush. Let's see
you have another little some kind of a

375
00:30:07.279 --> 00:30:11.279
patio thing here, and then that
driveway goes out like that. Here's the

376
00:30:11.359 --> 00:30:14.440
front of the house. You know
what shed I'm talking about right here?

377
00:30:14.720 --> 00:30:18.920
Okay, this area you know that
with a concrete's only about an inch Think

378
00:30:18.559 --> 00:30:25.400
that looks like it hasn't been that
concrete hasn't been there that long. I'm

379
00:30:25.400 --> 00:30:27.759
no expert, but I know when
I looked at concrete, I've been around

380
00:30:27.759 --> 00:30:33.680
a moment of that that that has
not been there that long. Do you

381
00:30:33.720 --> 00:30:38.599
remember that in the early part of
the year. Man? Okay, but

382
00:30:38.880 --> 00:30:44.039
that's what I'm saying. There was
at one time a trench there, Am

383
00:30:44.039 --> 00:30:51.119
I wrong? No? Two feet
deep and it didn't run in an L

384
00:30:51.200 --> 00:30:55.160
shape like this which way to go? It just went straight across okay,

385
00:30:55.240 --> 00:30:59.200
right in front of the shed area. It wasn't even as long as this

386
00:30:59.319 --> 00:31:03.240
table. Okay. You were looking
for sewer there, Okay, Now someone

387
00:31:03.440 --> 00:31:07.000
was that? Was it summertime?
Was it early part of the year?

388
00:31:07.119 --> 00:31:17.799
It was probably March March? And
you have a shed back here year so

389
00:31:17.839 --> 00:31:22.119
we know that that concrete. Now
the concrete in front here, well that

390
00:31:22.200 --> 00:31:26.279
poor at the same time as here. Oh, how long has this concrete

391
00:31:26.279 --> 00:31:30.599
been there? Over a year?
Over a year okay, and that's connected

392
00:31:30.640 --> 00:31:33.039
to the shed. And how long
has the shed been there over a year?

393
00:31:33.400 --> 00:31:37.480
Okay? What what? What was
here? Before? All that was

394
00:31:37.519 --> 00:31:41.240
put down? Plants? Plants and
garden and garden there, all dirt and

395
00:31:41.279 --> 00:31:48.920
stuff. Okay, but it was
right here, oh I know, yeah,

396
00:31:48.079 --> 00:31:52.000
it would be okay. And then
you have a little shed back the

397
00:31:52.079 --> 00:31:56.799
family living downstairs at that time,
you know, And how long has that

398
00:31:56.880 --> 00:32:00.640
shed been there? It was a
little shad. Did you get it after

399
00:32:00.680 --> 00:32:02.240
you were out in you got out
of nineteen eighty five? Did you can

400
00:32:02.319 --> 00:32:07.119
put it up there? Or was
it there before it? Then? The

401
00:32:07.200 --> 00:32:14.319
metal chip? Alright, I mean
was it after you got out of nineteen

402
00:32:14.319 --> 00:32:17.799
eighty five? Okay, so after
nineteen eighty five you put it up the

403
00:32:17.880 --> 00:32:23.039
ship? Now there back of your
house, there are some trees planted here.

404
00:32:23.359 --> 00:32:28.240
How long have those trees been here? They seem to be rather new

405
00:32:28.359 --> 00:32:30.759
by the way the roots, Yeah, I could move them with my hand,

406
00:32:30.759 --> 00:32:35.960
and I can see that the roots
are not in hearing soil was dying

407
00:32:36.039 --> 00:32:39.400
on Okay. It appears that there
was some digging in this back area there.

408
00:32:39.880 --> 00:32:43.319
Did you have any open trench areas? Back? There? Used to

409
00:32:43.400 --> 00:32:46.079
be a chick chicken coop there where
now in this whole thing? Yeah,

410
00:32:46.079 --> 00:32:50.079
how long ago, year and a
half ago? Okay, when was the

411
00:32:50.119 --> 00:32:52.960
last time there was any digging back
here? Because it appears that there has

412
00:32:52.000 --> 00:32:58.119
been some digging here that the summer. Sometimes what did you dig out?

413
00:32:59.240 --> 00:33:04.640
Was there another trend for sewer or
any Yeah? But there, John and

414
00:33:05.359 --> 00:33:07.799
John, we're box what area of
it? Here are the three? Here

415
00:33:07.799 --> 00:33:12.799
are the trees right here? What
are you with this whole thing? Okay?

416
00:33:14.119 --> 00:33:17.839
Now over here you have a couple
of big concrete ut a big bad

417
00:33:17.880 --> 00:33:22.440
like my bathtubs to me, Well, that came out of the upstairs.

418
00:33:22.519 --> 00:33:24.920
Yeah. How long have those been
there? For? Four years? Okay?

419
00:33:24.960 --> 00:33:28.720
Those are never budged. But the
only big in you know of?

420
00:33:29.720 --> 00:33:31.160
Okay, we know there was a
trench. You dug a small trench right

421
00:33:31.240 --> 00:33:37.039
here. How deep was that maybe? But nah? Okay, and then

422
00:33:37.160 --> 00:33:38.880
you didn't find anything. You just
buried it and then laid on you laid

423
00:33:38.920 --> 00:33:43.799
concrete over there some like if you're
looking at my kitchen, I have one

424
00:33:43.839 --> 00:33:49.039
buffet I put my coffee grounds,
eggs, shells, and stuff. In

425
00:33:49.079 --> 00:33:52.200
fact, you'll find that all over
the yard. Okay. You know a

426
00:33:52.240 --> 00:33:54.680
lot of people do that. Have
you ever had any or had the need

427
00:33:54.720 --> 00:34:00.200
for any lie around the house,
white powder light. We put some I'm

428
00:34:00.440 --> 00:34:05.839
line line. I forget the lumber
jacko or a tap from nursery told me

429
00:34:06.000 --> 00:34:09.239
that the brown is so hard,
like if you if you go back and

430
00:34:09.360 --> 00:34:13.800
dig with the grass, you know
where we put the grass in the front.

431
00:34:14.000 --> 00:34:16.760
They dug up about that much.
If you walk cross to the empty

432
00:34:16.800 --> 00:34:21.519
lot, you'll see the grass sitting
there. And they dug about that much,

433
00:34:21.760 --> 00:34:24.679
and we put in. I am
put line there, but I put

434
00:34:25.760 --> 00:34:34.119
a bag of fire lighter and I
think one bag of hotting soil or something.

435
00:34:34.239 --> 00:34:37.480
And well, I notice I noticed
a line back there in the soil.

436
00:34:37.480 --> 00:34:42.400
Well they said that the brown needed
Yeah, but I also noticed in

437
00:34:42.440 --> 00:34:45.840
the hole we were digging there was
some residue of lime. Would there be

438
00:34:45.880 --> 00:34:50.400
any reason to be line to people
ow in the soil? None? You

439
00:34:50.480 --> 00:34:54.599
never put it. How about John
who did the digging back there? For

440
00:34:54.639 --> 00:34:59.360
you who dogged all these trenches.
I think John does some like I tried,

441
00:34:59.480 --> 00:35:01.159
but I can't. I couldn't write
or something. No, I have

442
00:35:01.400 --> 00:35:06.280
a bad heart and I can't.
That's anything very heavy. So John did

443
00:35:06.440 --> 00:35:08.599
mostly digging one it needs well,
not always. I mean sometimes I had

444
00:35:08.880 --> 00:35:13.960
what do you call it casual waiver. Yeah, getting back to that,

445
00:35:14.119 --> 00:35:19.679
what will you find in this whole
year? Do you have any knowledge of

446
00:35:19.760 --> 00:35:22.760
what was in that hole at any
time? Did John ever tell you about

447
00:35:22.760 --> 00:35:28.239
anything? John? Sure? Could
he have put something in that hole?

448
00:35:28.360 --> 00:35:30.199
I don't think for me. He's
had a quad of old white pass or

449
00:35:30.239 --> 00:35:34.719
whatever, you know, whatever he
does have to about, mister keunty.

450
00:35:35.320 --> 00:35:37.039
No, he never done. Here's
a bad land. The only thing he

451
00:35:37.119 --> 00:35:44.440
ever did was help take up some
grass out by the sidewalk, or I

452
00:35:44.559 --> 00:35:49.920
put some icondra. Have you done
any digging up here in this area or

453
00:35:50.480 --> 00:35:53.440
mainly all you're digging his back in
the side in here, the side because

454
00:35:53.440 --> 00:35:59.599
I always have tomados and doll peppers
and squash. Listen, you hear what's

455
00:35:59.639 --> 00:36:01.840
this here? This is a driver
when the conquer. You got some plastic

456
00:36:01.920 --> 00:36:05.880
over here? Okay, that's from
my graphic. We just planned yesterday,

457
00:36:06.159 --> 00:36:08.119
but that was away built up about
this month. It was in the middle

458
00:36:08.159 --> 00:36:12.639
there before graph, but it was
it was bad, bad, so you

459
00:36:12.719 --> 00:36:15.519
dug it up. You're planning graph
And if people look across the street from

460
00:36:15.559 --> 00:36:20.840
my house, you can say I
believe I believe it. Eventually the investigator

461
00:36:21.000 --> 00:36:27.880
asked Dorothea the question of the hour, did she kill Bert Montoya? Okay,

462
00:36:28.199 --> 00:36:31.159
now let's get back to this other
thing here. Okay, I've got

463
00:36:31.239 --> 00:36:38.039
a man missing. Nothing seems,
everything seems totally. Nothing fits do Withthia.

464
00:36:38.119 --> 00:36:44.599
That's what I'm trying to say,
nothing fits Okay, And there's one

465
00:36:44.639 --> 00:36:51.960
or two things I can surmise,
okay, and that is mister Montoya,

466
00:36:52.320 --> 00:36:55.719
it's dead. No, no,
miss that I'm just saying. I mean

467
00:36:55.760 --> 00:36:59.480
just I'm trying to surmise this,
and then we'll try to clear this up.

468
00:37:00.039 --> 00:37:07.000
That he is dead and that either
he either either John macaulay or Mr

469
00:37:07.559 --> 00:37:14.719
Melvin or either killed him or that
maybe he meant foul played by your hands.

470
00:37:14.880 --> 00:37:19.000
That's that's that's my alternatives. I
don't know. But my other alternative

471
00:37:19.119 --> 00:37:22.920
is that the fact that somewhere in
that Mackyard North that he's lying, maybe

472
00:37:22.960 --> 00:37:28.400
along with other people. Okay.
And I'm also going to tell you that

473
00:37:28.639 --> 00:37:34.920
we had this same information a year
ago. A year ago, yes,

474
00:37:35.679 --> 00:37:40.480
a year ago. So what I'm
telling you is not new to me.

475
00:37:42.039 --> 00:37:45.679
Monday, Can I hire a contractor
to go in and tear everything down and

476
00:37:45.800 --> 00:37:50.760
dig it up to prove to you
that there's nobody there. If any digging

477
00:37:50.880 --> 00:37:53.159
has to be done, We're going
to do the digging. Okay. What

478
00:37:53.320 --> 00:37:58.880
I'm trying to do is right now, save a lot of painstaking trouble,

479
00:37:59.679 --> 00:38:04.000
a lot of time and a lot
of trouble. And what I'm asking you

480
00:38:04.639 --> 00:38:09.199
my bottom line and what I'm truly
asking you do to you. I have

481
00:38:09.360 --> 00:38:16.239
never killed anybody, maybe not you. But how about mister McCaulay, what

482
00:38:16.440 --> 00:38:24.119
reason have Well, I know we're
going to find out if about the checks,

483
00:38:24.559 --> 00:38:29.039
Okay, this is all security checks. And I know that you're past

484
00:38:29.239 --> 00:38:32.599
you've been in some trouble with right, Okay, And I know I remember

485
00:38:32.760 --> 00:38:37.360
when you were arrested and you were
in the beadle that I admitted to that

486
00:38:37.480 --> 00:38:40.360
to get the trial over where okay, but you still were convicted, right

487
00:38:40.559 --> 00:38:45.519
and sins to right. Okay.
The similarities are there. The only the

488
00:38:45.599 --> 00:38:52.000
only thing that's different now is the
fact rather than take something and let it

489
00:38:52.119 --> 00:38:57.159
go, you get rid of them
and nothing's ever found. Now here's a

490
00:38:57.199 --> 00:39:00.639
man from Costa Rica or timbuc two
that really nobody cares about. Just like

491
00:39:01.039 --> 00:39:04.800
fact, Just like mister Kelly said, he says, hey, when you're

492
00:39:04.840 --> 00:39:08.960
nobody or nobody nobody cared, so
you disappear, you're a transient, or

493
00:39:09.039 --> 00:39:13.880
you're a bum, or you're an
alcoholic. A lot of people think nobody

494
00:39:13.920 --> 00:39:16.519
ever cares. I cared for him, my body closed. I treated him

495
00:39:16.679 --> 00:39:22.079
very, very good. Have you
seen Ben Fink around? You know?

496
00:39:22.159 --> 00:39:24.800
I told him not to ever come
back from the point he was normally a

497
00:39:24.880 --> 00:39:30.440
regular around town. And you know
what, but he's look in Marysville,

498
00:39:30.599 --> 00:39:35.679
Dorothea. He'd have been in Marysville, he'd have been arrested. That's how

499
00:39:35.760 --> 00:39:38.199
Ben was. You know how Ben
was? No, he get drunk.

500
00:39:38.599 --> 00:39:44.800
He get drunk, you like,
get a little goofy, right, and

501
00:39:44.920 --> 00:39:50.760
then you usually end up getting arrested
taking the detox or something. Nothing absolutely

502
00:39:50.840 --> 00:39:57.039
nothing gone. What am I to
think? What am I to think?

503
00:39:57.079 --> 00:40:01.800
After hearing this a year and falling, falling along, watching, waiting,

504
00:40:02.800 --> 00:40:05.920
and then all of a sudden,
lo and behold, I did the body

505
00:40:05.960 --> 00:40:09.079
in your bank? I don't know
anything. I didn't even keep the body.

506
00:40:09.559 --> 00:40:14.199
It may be and you maybe that
may be true. That's why I'm

507
00:40:14.199 --> 00:40:16.920
asking you. I'm appealing to you, Joe. I don't feel anything.

508
00:40:16.960 --> 00:40:22.599
I'm want to ask you, right
now, are there any other bodies you

509
00:40:22.639 --> 00:40:27.719
know in your bankcount I didn't even
know that one was there. Did mister

510
00:40:27.840 --> 00:40:31.519
mccaullay bring any other bodies in the
background? Ye have testes mccaully Okay.

511
00:40:34.559 --> 00:40:37.119
That's why I'm asking you, because
if it has to be said, I

512
00:40:37.239 --> 00:40:39.840
want to said right now and it's
cleared up. Let's not get into something

513
00:40:39.920 --> 00:40:44.960
that maybe isn't there. I want
to know. I want you to be

514
00:40:45.119 --> 00:40:49.000
truth. I didn't even know that
body for there. If I had it,

515
00:40:49.079 --> 00:40:51.639
I would have said, no,
I don't fix the yard, you

516
00:40:51.760 --> 00:40:54.800
know, but I had nothing to
hide it. I don't want to go

517
00:40:54.920 --> 00:41:00.280
back to prisoner. Well, I
realize that I'm old, lady. I

518
00:41:00.400 --> 00:41:06.920
realized that trying for all, I'm
trying to get my life together. But

519
00:41:07.079 --> 00:41:09.719
Dorothea, that all the indications,
everything doesn't make any sense. Is what

520
00:41:09.800 --> 00:41:14.840
I'm trying to tell you. I'm
appealing to you. I'm appealing to you.

521
00:41:15.559 --> 00:41:20.400
That's what I'm saying is nothing makes
sense. Nothing. Everything you said

522
00:41:20.519 --> 00:41:22.559
was inconsistent with what somebody else said. When you sat in there, it

523
00:41:22.639 --> 00:41:24.760
was like sticking your foot in your
own mouth. I couldn't believe you were

524
00:41:24.760 --> 00:41:28.920
telling me that because I thought,
wait a minute, wait a minute,

525
00:41:29.760 --> 00:41:31.840
something is wrong here. And then
when I talked to Mitch mcaulay, he

526
00:41:31.880 --> 00:41:36.199
couldn't even substantiate what you were saying. And here's a man that's lived there

527
00:41:36.280 --> 00:41:40.800
four years, almost four years in
March. No, he's been there two

528
00:41:40.960 --> 00:41:44.880
years. Well, he says four
years in March. Well, he couldn't

529
00:41:44.880 --> 00:41:46.400
remember that. I haven't gotten out
in eighty five. He was living there

530
00:41:46.440 --> 00:41:52.760
before you there. Right at this
point in the investigation, authorities had only

531
00:41:52.880 --> 00:41:55.719
uncovered the one body. They were
curious if they were going to find more

532
00:41:55.800 --> 00:42:01.119
in the garden, and we already
know that they will, Dorothea. I

533
00:42:01.239 --> 00:42:07.599
know if we did, we're gonna
find more. I know that. I

534
00:42:07.760 --> 00:42:10.519
know that. Well. I didn't
put him there. I couldn't drag the

535
00:42:10.599 --> 00:42:15.840
body in any place. I believe
that. But I believe there's somebody else

536
00:42:15.920 --> 00:42:22.800
involved here, somebody else, because
here's people that are still getting checks and

537
00:42:22.800 --> 00:42:29.440
they haven't him in the scene hiding
her hair. Dorothea, you have to

538
00:42:29.480 --> 00:42:31.440
look at it from my view,
dear. I look at it, and

539
00:42:31.519 --> 00:42:37.599
I think nothing makes sense. This
is absolutely anybody. Maybe you didn't kill

540
00:42:37.599 --> 00:42:42.360
anybody. That may be true,
but maybe you know what really happened.

541
00:42:42.920 --> 00:42:46.440
I think you know about mister Montoya
because mister Montoya is not in Costa Rica.

542
00:42:46.719 --> 00:42:52.719
Mister Montoya is where is he?
He's in that backyard. I believe

543
00:42:52.800 --> 00:42:58.039
Dorothea he is in that backyard or
he's been disposed of some other manner,

544
00:42:58.679 --> 00:43:04.280
not by me, by mister McCauley. I don't see. I'm asking her.

545
00:43:04.400 --> 00:43:06.800
I don't know. I don't know. I don't I want to know

546
00:43:06.920 --> 00:43:08.559
what you know. I want to
know what you know. You know you

547
00:43:08.679 --> 00:43:15.119
are the leader of the house.
You have the background. Okay, you've

548
00:43:15.159 --> 00:43:17.239
been there before. You know what
I'm talking about. I have never killed

549
00:43:17.280 --> 00:43:22.039
anybody in line, and who did
kill somebody? Mister McCauley, tell me,

550
00:43:22.199 --> 00:43:23.679
no, tell me now, I
don't know. Tell me now.

551
00:43:23.760 --> 00:43:34.519
I don't know. When did mister
Montoya really disappear? When let's be honest

552
00:43:34.599 --> 00:43:40.840
with me, be real honest with
September. That's when the last time you

553
00:43:40.920 --> 00:43:52.679
saw him. I saw him this
weekend Sunday. Yes see, that's what

554
00:43:52.760 --> 00:43:55.039
I'm trying to say. Everybody else
says, no, he hasn't been around.

555
00:43:55.719 --> 00:43:59.239
Why would they tell us that,
I don't know? Why? Why

556
00:43:59.280 --> 00:44:04.360
would they tell us? Why would
mister Sharpe tell me that you promised to

557
00:44:04.480 --> 00:44:07.440
do some things for him if you
lied for you. I asked mister Sharpe

558
00:44:07.480 --> 00:44:10.039
to move. That's why he's mad
going to bring him in here, and

559
00:44:10.079 --> 00:44:14.199
I'm also going to bring mister mcculey. Always look like I'm lying because I'm

560
00:44:14.239 --> 00:44:16.880
nervous, Dorothea. You said where
a lot of people are sitting. I

561
00:44:17.000 --> 00:44:21.000
know, and don't I'm not taking
the idea. I'm not using that against

562
00:44:21.039 --> 00:44:22.960
you that you've been in prison.
Okay, what I say when I say

563
00:44:25.079 --> 00:44:30.840
the police officers not so you know. But I'm saying it's the background.

564
00:44:31.199 --> 00:44:35.039
It's the background. It's not like
you're in there for something else. What

565
00:44:35.199 --> 00:44:38.360
I'm asking for is nothing makes sense
here, Dorothea. Nothing makes sense.

566
00:44:39.599 --> 00:44:44.880
Everything you said you can't really substantiate. Mister McAuley tells me another thing.

567
00:44:44.960 --> 00:44:46.519
Mister Sharpe kills me another thing.
And I've got a guy that's been missing

568
00:44:46.519 --> 00:44:51.760
for at least two and a half
three months. I don't I have,

569
00:44:52.039 --> 00:44:53.480
And the social worker that says I've
been working with the guy all the time,

570
00:44:53.480 --> 00:44:55.239
and he just up and leaves,
and I'm thinking, well, wait

571
00:44:55.239 --> 00:44:58.559
a minute, and then all of
a sudden, they didn't want anything to

572
00:44:58.679 --> 00:45:02.000
do with him and didn't. Yeah, no, that's not so, that's

573
00:45:02.079 --> 00:45:07.079
not so. She worked with them. She worked with them. She's the

574
00:45:07.119 --> 00:45:08.800
one that made the report. I
know it, and I was going there.

575
00:45:08.840 --> 00:45:12.239
And what I'm saying is, I
hear this a year ago. A

576
00:45:12.400 --> 00:45:15.159
year ago, I hear this.
I didn't have how in a year ago?

577
00:45:15.360 --> 00:45:17.800
No, not him, I heard
about other people, you know what.

578
00:45:17.880 --> 00:45:22.519
I hear it. I heard,
Hey, I feel it only fourteen

579
00:45:22.559 --> 00:45:30.800
twenty success streets killing people and bury
them in their backgyard. How do you

580
00:45:30.880 --> 00:45:34.760
explain the body in the backyard?
I don't want to have feed down.

581
00:45:35.000 --> 00:45:39.920
I know it. When you find
out how old it is and see that

582
00:45:40.039 --> 00:45:45.639
I didn't have anything to do with
that. What if it's only a year

583
00:45:45.679 --> 00:45:47.400
old? What if it's two years
old? What if it goes back and

584
00:45:47.480 --> 00:45:51.199
it's going to be in between that
nineteen seventy nineteen eighty two, How do

585
00:45:51.199 --> 00:45:57.000
you even explain that it isn't old
enough that it's already the bones are disintegrating.

586
00:45:57.519 --> 00:46:01.880
I can tell you it looked like
they're splesh though that you know,

587
00:46:02.239 --> 00:46:06.320
That's what I'm trying to say.
Then then what are you going to tell

588
00:46:06.400 --> 00:46:09.280
me if I say hey, they
say me at the max maybe at that

589
00:46:09.400 --> 00:46:13.679
time zone where you were there.
How do you explain that somebody stuck in

590
00:46:13.719 --> 00:46:17.719
your backyard but a human body and
buried other people living there. It was

591
00:46:17.760 --> 00:46:22.800
two of the families that lived downstairs. Finally, towards the end of the

592
00:46:22.880 --> 00:46:28.800
interview, the investigator tells Dorothea how
he feels. He believes that she knows

593
00:46:28.880 --> 00:46:31.400
more than she is letting on,
and she claims that her niece propelled a

594
00:46:31.519 --> 00:46:37.000
lie about her that caused numerous rumors
to pop up regarding her, specifically that

595
00:46:37.119 --> 00:46:44.800
Dorothea Puente was killing people and burying
them in her backyard. Do you really

596
00:46:44.840 --> 00:46:46.960
think I'm a jilting You want me
to be truthful with you, I'm gonna

597
00:46:46.960 --> 00:46:51.679
be real truthful with you. Dorothea. I think you had somehow you're involved

598
00:46:51.679 --> 00:46:53.280
in it. It may not have
been by your hand, but it's by

599
00:46:53.360 --> 00:46:58.960
somebody's hand. And I think you
are very very frightened right now. You're

600
00:46:59.000 --> 00:47:02.199
looking and you don't know what to
And it's not just because you had any

601
00:47:02.239 --> 00:47:05.360
prior background, because there's been a
lot of people, I mean, we

602
00:47:05.440 --> 00:47:07.559
talk most of people. We talked
to all the time, so I understand

603
00:47:07.599 --> 00:47:10.800
that point. But the problem is, I think what you realize is this

604
00:47:10.880 --> 00:47:15.760
whole thing is up. I think
you realize that whatever has been going on

605
00:47:15.159 --> 00:47:20.840
is up. It's over because we
are going to uncover that yard and you've

606
00:47:20.920 --> 00:47:22.800
lived there. And that's why,
Dorothy, I'm saying right now, if

607
00:47:23.119 --> 00:47:28.000
this whole thing is up, there's
people who have been missing and you can't

608
00:47:28.000 --> 00:47:30.960
even explain why. And then when
you tell me it's something that isn't totally

609
00:47:30.039 --> 00:47:35.400
different than what I know? Why
am I wrong? Am I lying?

610
00:47:37.320 --> 00:47:42.360
And what I haven't there? My
consciousness not bothering me when I confess to

611
00:47:42.519 --> 00:47:45.480
my other stuff and went to prison
part I'm as glad to get adultment,

612
00:47:45.519 --> 00:47:51.880
okay. And that's why you'll never
rest and you have no intention of going

613
00:47:51.920 --> 00:47:54.519
back to prison. I know that, And I don't know if you would

614
00:47:54.519 --> 00:47:58.119
honestly tell me. I don't know
right now if you would tell me that,

615
00:47:58.239 --> 00:48:00.840
if you did, yes, I
would tell me. Would I don't

616
00:48:00.840 --> 00:48:06.480
know, because I can't think the
pressure and stuff. Well, if you

617
00:48:06.639 --> 00:48:08.480
didn't, somebody else did. And
the only other person that I can say

618
00:48:08.679 --> 00:48:15.440
that has remarkably been around when these
guys have disappeared against mister mccollege. Question,

619
00:48:15.519 --> 00:48:19.159
mister home, I am, but
I think you might have knowledge.

620
00:48:19.400 --> 00:48:23.320
I think what I basically want to
know from you is where is mister Montoya?

621
00:48:23.440 --> 00:48:30.719
Where he really don't know? And
you said you saw him. During

622
00:48:30.760 --> 00:48:35.840
the interview, police were trying to
push Dorothea to tell the truth. At

623
00:48:35.880 --> 00:48:38.760
the time, they did not believe
that she had single handedly murdered anyone,

624
00:48:39.599 --> 00:48:45.119
but that she knew more than she
was letting on. Dorothea was allowed to

625
00:48:45.199 --> 00:48:50.920
return to her home after her interrogation. However, some time between the day

626
00:48:51.159 --> 00:48:57.760
of November eleventh and November fourteenth,
Dorothea fled. She would buy an airplane

627
00:48:57.800 --> 00:49:01.039
ticket to Los Angeles, but it
was a false trail. She never got

628
00:49:01.079 --> 00:49:07.360
on the flight. The police were
flabbergasted. Why would this woman run if

629
00:49:07.440 --> 00:49:12.639
she claimed her innocence. The police
conducted a massive search to find her.

630
00:49:13.079 --> 00:49:15.719
When the police dug around a little
bit deeper, they discovered all the bodies

631
00:49:15.760 --> 00:49:20.760
in her yard, as well as
evidence that she had been cashing the checks

632
00:49:20.800 --> 00:49:24.639
of the deceased individuals. What would
layer come to light is that each victim

633
00:49:24.719 --> 00:49:29.960
had a high level of a drug
called florazepam, a drug that is intended

634
00:49:30.000 --> 00:49:35.199
to help those who have difficulties falling
and staying asleep. Dorothea had dozens of

635
00:49:35.320 --> 00:49:38.599
prescriptions for the drug in her room. One of the more disturbing facts that

636
00:49:38.639 --> 00:49:43.519
would be later revealed is that the
state in which some of the bodies were

637
00:49:43.559 --> 00:49:47.880
found when they were unearthed, Betty
Palmer had not only been decapitated, but

638
00:49:49.039 --> 00:49:53.320
her hands and lower legs had also
been removed. The reasoning behind this is

639
00:49:53.440 --> 00:49:59.880
unknown. As more and more was
uncovered in this case, authorities were getting

640
00:50:00.039 --> 00:50:05.239
increasingly frustrated at the fact that Dorothea
was nowhere to be found. While they

641
00:50:05.320 --> 00:50:09.760
tirelessly searched for Dorothea, she was
hiding out in the Royal Viking Hotel located

642
00:50:09.800 --> 00:50:15.840
in downtown Los Angeles. Her false
trail was actually a true one. She

643
00:50:15.920 --> 00:50:21.760
would book a room under the alias
Dorothea Johansson, and she did her best

644
00:50:21.840 --> 00:50:25.320
to keep a low profile. However, after some time, Dorothea was getting

645
00:50:25.360 --> 00:50:30.320
cabin fever, staying in this small
hotel room for days on end. She

646
00:50:30.519 --> 00:50:34.159
decided she was in the clear enough
to go to a local bar. While

647
00:50:34.199 --> 00:50:38.159
at the bar, she was using
the name Donna Johansson. She would strike

648
00:50:38.239 --> 00:50:43.400
up a conversation with a man named
Charles, and instantly she was back into

649
00:50:43.480 --> 00:50:49.079
her scheming mode. She found out
crucial details of his financial situation and she

650
00:50:49.199 --> 00:50:53.840
began plotting her way to steal from
him. Luckily for Charles and unfortunately for

651
00:50:53.960 --> 00:50:58.679
her, Dorothea got a little too
drunk and came on way too strong.

652
00:50:59.360 --> 00:51:01.480
She suggest, trusted to the man
that they moved in together, and this

653
00:51:01.679 --> 00:51:07.239
sent up red flags all around him. I mean, he only didn't know

654
00:51:07.400 --> 00:51:10.400
her for a few hours at that
point. The longer he spent around this

655
00:51:10.599 --> 00:51:15.800
Donna character, the more uneasy Charles
became. He couldn't put his finger on

656
00:51:15.880 --> 00:51:21.239
what exactly it was apart from her
forwardness, but this feeling in his gut

657
00:51:21.320 --> 00:51:25.960
was something more, and it made
him uncomfortable. At some point, Dorothea's

658
00:51:27.000 --> 00:51:30.320
companions said good night to her,
and she was very disappointed. When the

659
00:51:30.400 --> 00:51:34.639
gentleman returned to his home, he
turned on his TV to hear the news

660
00:51:34.760 --> 00:51:37.480
report. The news was repeating the
same thing and had been for the last

661
00:51:37.559 --> 00:51:44.159
hour, about a woman named Dorothea
Puente who was a suspect in multiple murders

662
00:51:44.639 --> 00:51:47.239
earlier in the day. The news
reporter had shown a phogo and he was

663
00:51:47.360 --> 00:51:52.559
almost sure that the woman he had
just shared several drinks with who called herself

664
00:51:52.679 --> 00:52:00.239
Donna, was actually Dorothea Puente.
Charles didn't want to call the police on

665
00:52:00.280 --> 00:52:02.800
the off chance that he was wrong, so instead he called a news station

666
00:52:04.119 --> 00:52:07.000
because the news wasn't showing the phogo
of the suspect at the time. The

667
00:52:07.159 --> 00:52:12.519
reporter agreed to come to this man
and show him a picture of Dorothea Puente.

668
00:52:13.199 --> 00:52:15.440
When Charles saw the phogo, he
still wasn't one hundred percent sure that

669
00:52:15.599 --> 00:52:21.199
Donna was Dorothea, but despite that, he still gave all the information to

670
00:52:21.320 --> 00:52:25.360
the news reporter. With this new
found information, the reporter called the police

671
00:52:25.440 --> 00:52:30.159
and gather a camera crew and headed
to the Royal Viking Hotel gather her around

672
00:52:30.199 --> 00:52:35.239
the door to her room, the
news reporter would knock. When Dorothea opened

673
00:52:35.280 --> 00:52:37.320
the door, she was met with
a camera in her face and a news

674
00:52:37.440 --> 00:52:43.599
reporter asking her if they could see
some identification. At this moment, Dorothea

675
00:52:43.679 --> 00:52:46.920
knew that the jig was up.
She would grab her id and show them

676
00:52:47.039 --> 00:52:52.719
who she was. Authorities arrested Plente
last night in Los Angeles after receiving a

677
00:52:52.800 --> 00:52:58.239
tip and La Woodour met her at
a bar and says Plente seemed friendly,

678
00:52:58.360 --> 00:53:00.880
yet he knew something wasn't right.
But in the end, the place the

679
00:53:01.039 --> 00:53:07.000
picture kept coming back from the morning
knows. She asked me about my income

680
00:53:07.039 --> 00:53:09.960
and I told her so and I
live in a very limited income to live

681
00:53:10.039 --> 00:53:15.400
on social Security disability. She seemed
to know all the figures she was interested

682
00:53:15.559 --> 00:53:22.039
and maybe getting together and sharing in
a parking No, didn't you think that

683
00:53:22.159 --> 00:53:30.599
was weird or rot? Dorothea was
immediately taken back to Sacramento. During the

684
00:53:30.840 --> 00:53:35.719
entire trip, she claimed her innocence. The process of ideing all the bodies

685
00:53:35.760 --> 00:53:38.480
and gathering up all the evidence needed
for the trial took quite a long time.

686
00:53:39.079 --> 00:53:45.440
Pre trial hearings would not begin until
April of nineteen ninety once everything truly

687
00:53:45.519 --> 00:53:50.559
started. The prosecution presented Dorothea as
a deranged woman who cared about nothing except

688
00:53:50.679 --> 00:53:54.000
money and herself. The defense would
combat that with claiming that due to the

689
00:53:54.159 --> 00:53:59.639
fact that this case had been all
over the news, that Dorothea's right to

690
00:53:59.679 --> 00:54:06.159
a trial was being compromised. Everyone
knew who she was the death House landlady.

691
00:54:06.599 --> 00:54:09.400
However, despite the argument of the
defense. The judge would grant that

692
00:54:09.480 --> 00:54:14.679
the proceedings could move forward. It
would take a few years before the trial

693
00:54:14.719 --> 00:54:17.800
would truly begin due to many delays
in the case. When things did begin,

694
00:54:19.119 --> 00:54:22.039
over a hundred and fifty witnesses would
take the stand and a multitude of

695
00:54:22.119 --> 00:54:27.599
evidence would be presented to a jury. After all the evidence had been presented,

696
00:54:27.840 --> 00:54:31.480
the jury would decide the verdict.
The first debate over her conviction took

697
00:54:31.599 --> 00:54:36.760
days to reach, and they would
claim that they were deadlocked on all nine

698
00:54:36.880 --> 00:54:40.719
counts that Dorothea was being tried on. Instead of claiming a mistrial and having

699
00:54:40.800 --> 00:54:45.800
to start all over again, the
judge gave the jury an opportunity to converse

700
00:54:45.880 --> 00:54:50.920
about the case one more time.
On August twenty sixth, nineteen ninety three,

701
00:54:51.079 --> 00:54:54.840
the jury reached a verdict. Dorothea
Poente was guilty on three counts of

702
00:54:54.960 --> 00:55:00.320
murder. Two were first degree and
one was a second degree off A mistrial

703
00:55:00.480 --> 00:55:05.320
was the cleared on the other six
counts of murder. These counts would never

704
00:55:05.440 --> 00:55:09.000
be tried again. We the jury
in the above entitle cause find the defendant,

705
00:55:09.079 --> 00:55:14.119
Dorothea Montalvo Puente, guilty of the
crime of murdering the second degree of

706
00:55:14.280 --> 00:55:17.920
Leona Carpenter, a lesser included offense
of that charged account four of the information

707
00:55:19.440 --> 00:55:22.599
Verdict. Count five, We the
jury in the above ent title cause,

708
00:55:22.840 --> 00:55:28.559
find the defendant Dorothea Montalvo Puente guilty
of the crime of murdering the first degree

709
00:55:28.960 --> 00:55:32.039
of Dorothy Miller, as charged in
count five of the information Verdict. Count

710
00:55:32.159 --> 00:55:37.599
seven, We the jury in the
above ent title cause find the defendant Dorothea

711
00:55:37.760 --> 00:55:42.280
Montalvo puentein guilty of the crime of
murdering the first degree of Benjamin Fink,

712
00:55:42.360 --> 00:55:46.480
as charged and count seven of the
information special circumstance. We the jury in

713
00:55:46.559 --> 00:55:52.519
the above and title cause, find
the special circumstance allegation that the defendant Dorothea

714
00:55:52.719 --> 00:55:57.639
Montalvo Pointe did commit multiple murders to
wit at least one crime of murder of

715
00:55:57.679 --> 00:56:00.719
the first degree and one or more
crimes of of the first or second degree,

716
00:56:00.840 --> 00:56:07.039
to be true. On December eleventh, nineteen ninety three, Dorothea Puente

717
00:56:07.199 --> 00:56:12.960
was sentenced to life in prison without
the possibility of parole. Dorothea's response,

718
00:56:14.079 --> 00:56:17.880
she said she didn't kill anybody.
Dorothea would carry out her sentence at the

719
00:56:19.000 --> 00:56:24.119
Central California Women's Facility. Throughout her
time there, she vehemently claimed her innocence

720
00:56:24.440 --> 00:56:30.840
and never once admitted to guilt.
On March twenty seventh, twenty eleven,

721
00:56:30.119 --> 00:56:36.320
Dorothea Puente would die of natural causes
at the age of eighty two. It

722
00:56:36.440 --> 00:56:40.880
seems fairly clear that Dorothea Puente was
at the very least responsible for the deaths

723
00:56:40.960 --> 00:56:45.840
of the tenets of her boarding house. What is uncertain, though, is

724
00:56:45.920 --> 00:56:50.119
how she was able to dispose of
all those bodies, even to the point

725
00:56:50.320 --> 00:56:54.360
of mutilating them post mortem, without
anybody noticing. It. Begs the question

726
00:56:55.159 --> 00:57:00.920
did she do it alone or did
she have help? We will most likely

727
00:57:00.039 --> 00:57:08.559
never know the answer to that question. Not real good, Not real good.

728
00:57:12.519 --> 00:57:15.400
Thank you for listening to this episode
of The Apex and the Abyss.

729
00:57:15.679 --> 00:57:17.920
You can find the show on Twitter, Facebook, and Instagram. If you

730
00:57:17.960 --> 00:57:22.079
would like to reach out to me
directly to drop a line about the show,

731
00:57:22.239 --> 00:57:25.280
please feel free to email me at
Apex and Abyss at gmail dot com.

732
00:57:25.719 --> 00:57:29.119
If you'd like to support the show, there are quite a few ways

733
00:57:29.159 --> 00:57:31.039
that you can do that at no
cost to you except a few minutes of

734
00:57:31.119 --> 00:57:35.400
your time. You can head on
over to Apple Podcasts and give the show

735
00:57:35.519 --> 00:57:38.400
a rating and review. You can
also head over to tepublic dot com to

736
00:57:38.480 --> 00:57:42.719
buy merchandise. You can become a
Patreon where you can head on over to

737
00:57:42.840 --> 00:57:45.519
him Laya plus and join the show's
community. There. On Himalaya Plus you

738
00:57:45.559 --> 00:57:50.360
will have access to add free episodes
before anyone else, as well as bonus

739
00:57:50.440 --> 00:57:55.360
content and much much more. Thank
you again for listening. Until next time,

740
00:57:58.760 --> 00:58:01.760
we're asking what had happened? How
could a convicted felon end up running

741
00:58:01.840 --> 00:58:06.280
a boarding house? Is one neither
Stevenson found out. It's keyser than you

742
00:58:06.360 --> 00:58:08.239
might think, and she joins us
right now with Moore on that report.

743
00:58:08.599 --> 00:58:14.840
But don boarding homes are probably the
least regulated shelters there are, making it

744
00:58:15.239 --> 00:58:21.000
all too easy for people like Dorothea
Poente to operate one. The gruesome tale

745
00:58:21.119 --> 00:58:25.280
began unfolding over the weekend, Sacramento
police digging up body after body in the

746
00:58:25.400 --> 00:58:30.280
yard of a boarding home. The
landlord of the home, the prime suspect,

747
00:58:30.559 --> 00:58:34.280
a woman who had a police record, A woman who just six years

748
00:58:34.280 --> 00:58:38.800
ago was arrested and convicted of drugging
some elderly residents of another boarding home and

749
00:58:38.920 --> 00:58:44.280
stealing their valuables. How could she
end up running another facility. Oh,

750
00:58:44.400 --> 00:58:51.440
it could happen easily because she gets
out of prison, she comes to Sacramento

751
00:58:51.519 --> 00:58:55.000
or wherever, she gets a license
to do business. She's not fingerprinted.

752
00:58:55.639 --> 00:59:00.880
CII check is not done. She
sets up her business. Unlike a boarding

753
00:59:01.000 --> 00:59:05.880
care facility, those who want to
open a boarding home only need a business

754
00:59:05.960 --> 00:59:08.719
license, and to get a business
license, there is no background check,

755
00:59:09.119 --> 00:59:15.079
no finger printing, and no regulations. But we find situations where people are

756
00:59:15.239 --> 00:59:22.119
likely to be abused, neglected,
or exploited because there's no regulation within these

757
00:59:22.239 --> 00:59:27.440
facilities. The Department of Social Services
is the agency that usually refers to those

758
00:59:27.480 --> 00:59:30.679
who need a place to stay.
They are the wholess, the mentally down,