1 00:00:01,080 --> 00:00:07,200 You're listening to the Mind Over Murder podcast. My name is Bill Thomas. 2 00:00:07,719 --> 00:00:12,039 I'm a writer, consulting, producer, and now podcaster. I am now 3 00:00:12,080 --> 00:00:16,000 trying to use my experience as the brother of a murder victim to help other 4 00:00:16,079 --> 00:00:20,239 victims of violent crime. I'm working on a book on the unsolved Colonial Parkway 5 00:00:20,320 --> 00:00:24,719 murders and I'm the co administrator of the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook group together with 6 00:00:24,800 --> 00:00:29,079 Kristin Dilley. My name is Kristin Dilley. I'm a writer, a researcher, 7 00:00:29,280 --> 00:00:32,799 a teacher, and a victim's advocate, as well as the social media 8 00:00:32,840 --> 00:00:37,880 manager and co administrator for the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook page with my partner in 9 00:00:37,880 --> 00:00:49,880 crime, Bill Thomas. Welcome to My Devor Murder. I'm Kristin Dilley and 10 00:00:50,039 --> 00:00:54,399 I'm Bill Thomas, and we're joined again by author Kate Miles here to talk 11 00:00:54,479 --> 00:00:59,799 to us about her award winning, multiple award winning book Trailed, One Woman's 12 00:01:00,039 --> 00:01:03,439 Quest to Solve the Shenandoah Murders. Kate, thank you for joining us again. 13 00:01:03,079 --> 00:01:06,879 I can't believe you want to have me back, but I'm so grateful 14 00:01:07,400 --> 00:01:11,640 now that you're going into paperback which is a really big deal. After the 15 00:01:11,719 --> 00:01:15,959 success of the hardcover book, this is a great time to have a follow 16 00:01:15,040 --> 00:01:19,560 up conversation and find out all the good things that have been generated by your 17 00:01:19,599 --> 00:01:26,040 writing and publication of Trialt. So start by bragging a little bit. Tell 18 00:01:26,079 --> 00:01:29,319 us about all the awards you've won, because you've won a lot and it's 19 00:01:29,319 --> 00:01:32,079 really impressive. So do the brag thing. And it doesn't even have to 20 00:01:32,079 --> 00:01:37,719 be humble bragg. I've just been so grateful for the reception of this book, 21 00:01:37,799 --> 00:01:42,680 and I'm particularly grateful by how many people have been impacted on either a 22 00:01:42,760 --> 00:01:47,079 primary or secondary basis by this particular crime who have reached out. So for 23 00:01:47,120 --> 00:01:51,920 me, that's definitely more important than any possible award. But the book has 24 00:01:51,959 --> 00:01:56,000 done quite well, and we're really excited at the New York Times named one 25 00:01:56,000 --> 00:02:00,560 of the best true crime books of the year. That was great. Audio 26 00:02:00,680 --> 00:02:06,519 book, which is really ably and expertly narrated by Gabra Zuckman, won several 27 00:02:06,560 --> 00:02:10,800 awards. We just won the main Literary Award for twenty twenty three a book 28 00:02:10,840 --> 00:02:16,199 was a finalist for the Edgar Award. We just now learned that the book 29 00:02:16,199 --> 00:02:21,479 has just been named a finalist for the Virginia Book Award Reader's Choice. So 30 00:02:22,319 --> 00:02:27,560 quick overview, really exciting all around. That is so fantastic. Oh my 31 00:02:27,759 --> 00:02:32,759 gosh, that's amazing. Congratulations on all of that. It's just really great 32 00:02:32,840 --> 00:02:38,759 to know that this story resonates with people. You all know that when you're 33 00:02:38,800 --> 00:02:42,800 in the trenches and thinking so much about a particular crime or a particular issue, 34 00:02:42,840 --> 00:02:46,680 it gets all consuming for you. But sometimes it's hard to know whether 35 00:02:46,759 --> 00:02:50,479 or not it's going to be all consuming for people who read and listen to 36 00:02:50,520 --> 00:02:54,159 true crime as well. But reading their reviews, Kate, people really talk 37 00:02:54,240 --> 00:03:00,960 about how much they were drawn into Julian Lawley's store by reading Trailed, and 38 00:03:01,120 --> 00:03:07,360 how compelling they thought it was. And yes, there's a very sad component 39 00:03:07,439 --> 00:03:10,879 to this unsolved murder of these two beautiful young women, but it's a story 40 00:03:10,960 --> 00:03:15,599 that just pulled you in well, And thank you for saying that. The 41 00:03:15,639 --> 00:03:20,080 most important thing for me all along has really been to foreground the stories of 42 00:03:20,159 --> 00:03:24,960 Lally and Julie, primarily obviously as living, breathing humans who were really just 43 00:03:25,439 --> 00:03:30,159 exemplary leaders in their fields, and also in love, and telling that love 44 00:03:30,240 --> 00:03:35,080 story was really important to me. And then of course, honoring them as 45 00:03:35,199 --> 00:03:39,360 victims as well as living people as well, and making sure people understand just 46 00:03:39,479 --> 00:03:43,759 what was taken away not only from friends and family, but I think also 47 00:03:43,840 --> 00:03:47,800 the larger public when we lost these two individuals. I do want to make 48 00:03:47,840 --> 00:03:53,719 sure that we talk a little bit more about your recent Library of Virginia speech 49 00:03:53,800 --> 00:03:57,199 that you did. But I really like the fact that you started out with 50 00:03:57,479 --> 00:04:02,360 pictures of Lally and Julian. You grounded everything in and your presentation that way, 51 00:04:02,360 --> 00:04:06,479 with the fact that we are concerned primarily about these two women, and 52 00:04:06,520 --> 00:04:09,919 I like that. I appreciated it, and I could tell the audience did 53 00:04:09,919 --> 00:04:14,759 too. With the book going into paperback, what changes if any, were 54 00:04:14,840 --> 00:04:18,920 made to the book between the version that we have several copies on our bookshelves 55 00:04:19,000 --> 00:04:25,560 and the new version that is out in paperback. Now, what got changed 56 00:04:25,600 --> 00:04:30,279 if anything? In general, paperbacks are not changed. When we find a 57 00:04:30,319 --> 00:04:33,560 few typographical errors or things like that, those sorts of things might get changed. 58 00:04:33,600 --> 00:04:39,800 But really the book reads pretty much exactly as it was written. Bill 59 00:04:39,839 --> 00:04:42,680 and I were looking enough to get advanced reader copies. But the one thing 60 00:04:42,720 --> 00:04:46,160 I know the paperback has in it that our arcs did not is. There 61 00:04:46,160 --> 00:04:48,879 are a lot of wonderful photographs and maps in there. Can you tell us 62 00:04:48,879 --> 00:04:53,000 a little bit about, like how did you come into possession of those and 63 00:04:53,040 --> 00:04:56,560 why was it so important to include those in the book? Sure? I 64 00:04:56,639 --> 00:05:01,759 have worked with a really wonderful cartographer on all of my books. Her name's 65 00:05:01,800 --> 00:05:05,040 Margot Carpenter, and her company is called Heartdale Maps, and she does a 66 00:05:05,120 --> 00:05:12,319 really brilliant job of interpreting not just data but also stories in order to tell 67 00:05:12,439 --> 00:05:15,360 something. And she and I work together to create a series of maps for 68 00:05:15,399 --> 00:05:19,000 the book, and she did a really great job to quietly evoking the style 69 00:05:19,040 --> 00:05:23,519 of the National Park Service maps and guide boots and things like that. But 70 00:05:23,560 --> 00:05:27,800 it was really important for me for readers to first of all understand in a 71 00:05:27,879 --> 00:05:32,279 general way place and starting on a kind of macro level, with Shenandoah Park 72 00:05:32,319 --> 00:05:36,079 as a whole, it's a really peculiar National park in some ways, in 73 00:05:36,120 --> 00:05:42,000 the way, especially the fact that it's this long kind of winding park with 74 00:05:42,279 --> 00:05:46,240 one major road through it and then basically tumbles down both sides of a mountain, 75 00:05:46,279 --> 00:05:50,560 and so the idea of backcountry means something very different in that park than 76 00:05:50,600 --> 00:05:55,319 it doesn't say Zion or Bryce or something like that. And so I wanted 77 00:05:55,319 --> 00:06:02,000 readers to understand both that and the proximity to population centers, to parking lots, 78 00:06:02,079 --> 00:06:05,480 to major roads and things like that, which I think is ultimately relevant 79 00:06:05,519 --> 00:06:10,240 when we think about who might have done this and how and why. I 80 00:06:10,319 --> 00:06:14,120 also really wanted folks to get a sense of the murder scene and how it 81 00:06:14,160 --> 00:06:18,600 relates to the area around Skyland Lodge. That was also really important to me. 82 00:06:18,720 --> 00:06:23,240 And then equally, if not more importantly, was making sure that we 83 00:06:23,279 --> 00:06:29,800 could put the context of these two murders within a larger context of a group 84 00:06:30,000 --> 00:06:32,959 of women, mostly young women, most of whom had some real I think 85 00:06:33,000 --> 00:06:38,199 physical similarities to Lolly and Julie, who were killed over the course of a 86 00:06:38,279 --> 00:06:43,759 year and a half in a fairly small circumference and what is largely rural Virginia. 87 00:06:43,800 --> 00:06:46,240 And I think when you see that on paper, the idea that this 88 00:06:46,319 --> 00:06:51,399 was an isolated incident becomes harder to accept. How do you go about getting 89 00:06:51,519 --> 00:06:57,199 permission to use photographs? Kate? I know that you've got a lot of 90 00:06:57,199 --> 00:07:00,160 amazing photographs, many of which were never published before. For how do you 91 00:07:00,199 --> 00:07:05,959 go about getting permissions? That's a great question. Some of the photographs were 92 00:07:06,000 --> 00:07:11,560 published by the FBI. They were given to the FBI by the families, 93 00:07:11,879 --> 00:07:16,240 and so the FBI used them in press releases and posters and things like that. 94 00:07:16,480 --> 00:07:21,120 So they have permission to grant the media permission, and some of the 95 00:07:21,120 --> 00:07:26,519 photographs came from there. But Lolly and Julie's friends and family were the ones 96 00:07:26,560 --> 00:07:30,759 who applied some of my very favorite photos of them. And obviously Lollly and 97 00:07:30,839 --> 00:07:33,639 Julie can't consent to the photos and would be ideal if they could, but 98 00:07:33,720 --> 00:07:39,000 the friends giving them to me offered their consent. And I think that, 99 00:07:39,279 --> 00:07:42,480 you know what I've really love about them is I think it really just gets 100 00:07:42,480 --> 00:07:46,879 at their personalities and their love of life and their humanity. And again, 101 00:07:46,920 --> 00:07:50,759 I think it's just really important that people know that and really understand who these 102 00:07:50,800 --> 00:07:57,160 people were. Some of the photographs were actually taken by the two women themselves. 103 00:07:57,560 --> 00:08:01,600 How did you end up with those photographs? They're from one of their 104 00:08:01,639 --> 00:08:07,519 cameras? Correct, So Lolli was a very avid photographer and she had brought 105 00:08:07,519 --> 00:08:11,199 her camera on the trip, So that became really important I think for the 106 00:08:11,279 --> 00:08:18,000 investigation initially because although the time stamp was way off on her camera. I 107 00:08:18,000 --> 00:08:22,759 would say something like January first, nineteen hundred or something like. We can't 108 00:08:22,759 --> 00:08:26,480 know the exact days, but we can know the chronology of some of the 109 00:08:26,519 --> 00:08:30,480 places where they were in the park. That, coupled with their journals, 110 00:08:30,560 --> 00:08:35,559 coupled with their backcountry permits, allows us to recreate their time in the park 111 00:08:35,639 --> 00:08:39,120 in really good detail. There was also a young couple at the time who 112 00:08:39,159 --> 00:08:43,720 were vacationing in the park and they had run into Lollie and Julie and just 113 00:08:43,759 --> 00:08:48,159 struck up a conversation and they all took photos of each other. That became 114 00:08:48,200 --> 00:08:52,679 relevant as well too in terms of understanding where Lollie and Julie were and making 115 00:08:52,759 --> 00:08:56,000 identifications and things. And the woman who had been the wife of that couple 116 00:08:56,039 --> 00:09:00,960 they're now divorced, she had sent those photos to me as well too. 117 00:09:01,039 --> 00:09:03,639 So it's nice, I think, to be able to do this triangulation so 118 00:09:03,679 --> 00:09:07,720 that we can say, for relatives, certain we know they were at X 119 00:09:07,759 --> 00:09:13,120 place or why place, and at least be able to approximate when you brought 120 00:09:13,200 --> 00:09:16,519 up the FBI already, So I guess let's go ahead and dive into talking 121 00:09:16,559 --> 00:09:20,600 about their response and really not just the FBI, though, Let's talk about 122 00:09:20,639 --> 00:09:26,600 the response from law enforcement National Park Service as well. What has their response 123 00:09:26,639 --> 00:09:33,360 been in relation to the book. It has been hugely varied. Recently, 124 00:09:33,600 --> 00:09:37,919 an attorney for the Department of Justice recently reached out to me and told me 125 00:09:39,000 --> 00:09:41,799 he had read the book, and he asked me if I would be willing 126 00:09:41,840 --> 00:09:45,960 to come talk to the DOJ to ensure that this kind of investigation in these 127 00:09:46,039 --> 00:09:50,639 kind of foibles don't happen again. That to me, was a huge endorsement 128 00:09:50,759 --> 00:09:52,759 of the research in the book, I think, especially where the ideas of 129 00:09:52,799 --> 00:09:58,440 confirmation bias come in and some of the interview and interrogation techniques that I outline, 130 00:09:58,480 --> 00:10:03,879 which I think are morally questionable at best, So that was really great. 131 00:10:03,000 --> 00:10:09,720 I've heard secondhand from the family of some of the other surviving victims in 132 00:10:09,840 --> 00:10:13,919 Virginia that those law enforcement officials have been reading the book and using the book 133 00:10:13,919 --> 00:10:18,240 to reexamine some of those cases. They haven't reached out to me, which 134 00:10:18,279 --> 00:10:22,080 I find peculiar, but at least they're reading it, so that's something. 135 00:10:22,559 --> 00:10:26,639 And then I also have heard secondhand that the publication of the book prompted the 136 00:10:26,720 --> 00:10:33,320 FBI to re examine the case and to reexamine some of the Park Service law 137 00:10:33,440 --> 00:10:39,320 enforcement rangers who were involved in the case. And I've heard again secondhand that 138 00:10:39,399 --> 00:10:41,759 they even went so far as to try to obtain some DNA swabs from some 139 00:10:41,840 --> 00:10:50,679 of the rangers. They are understandably not pleased. The reaction at least one 140 00:10:50,720 --> 00:10:56,200 of them in particular, has been very loud, I think, and so 141 00:10:56,480 --> 00:11:01,039 that's obviously not my preferred reaction. But I think it's good that this information 142 00:11:01,080 --> 00:11:05,440 is hitting a nerve, and I think maybe the more nerves it hits, 143 00:11:05,559 --> 00:11:09,200 the more likely it will be that the story is propelled forward, and that 144 00:11:09,240 --> 00:11:16,200 the investigation is propelled forward. As the brother of a murder victim whose sister's 145 00:11:16,279 --> 00:11:22,399 case is sometimes linked with the murder of Lali and Julie, I will just 146 00:11:22,440 --> 00:11:28,000 say this should have been done years ago, and the fact that the FBI 147 00:11:28,279 --> 00:11:33,840 and the National Park Service and other law enforcement agencies are circling back around and 148 00:11:33,039 --> 00:11:43,279 collecting DNA samples from investigators and first responders now more than twenty six years after 149 00:11:43,759 --> 00:11:50,919 their murders in the Shenandoah is shocking. This should have been done decades ago, 150 00:11:52,159 --> 00:11:56,279 and it shouldn't take all of the work and the research that you've done 151 00:11:56,679 --> 00:12:03,519 to produce Trailed to get the FBI and the National Park Service to do something 152 00:12:03,559 --> 00:12:07,159 that they should have done twenty something years ago. And I can't imagine how 153 00:12:07,200 --> 00:12:11,720 frustrating it is to be the family member of a victim and know that so 154 00:12:11,799 --> 00:12:16,679 much hasn't been done. It's for me as a journalist, it's frustrating, 155 00:12:16,679 --> 00:12:20,440 and I don't have that personal connection. And that's one of the things that 156 00:12:20,519 --> 00:12:24,159 I like to try to highlight when I'm talking about this book, is the 157 00:12:24,240 --> 00:12:28,720 number of cold cases out in the country, the number of people like you 158 00:12:28,799 --> 00:12:33,279 who deserve answers and deserve a thorough investigation and I've never had it. The 159 00:12:33,360 --> 00:12:37,279 number of rape kits and DNA samples that we've never attested, the number of 160 00:12:37,360 --> 00:12:41,120 DNA that we've never loaded to codis. This is a national endemic problem, 161 00:12:41,159 --> 00:12:45,399 and it's a crisis. I think it's such crisis of justice that we really 162 00:12:45,399 --> 00:12:48,840 need to resolve. I'm not hinting by the way that any of these people 163 00:12:48,879 --> 00:12:54,679 are directly involved, or that someone in law enforcement is a murderer. I'm 164 00:12:54,679 --> 00:12:58,840 not saying that. But what I am saying is you would think, I 165 00:13:00,120 --> 00:13:03,879 understand that this stuff didn't happen. Back in nineteen eighty six, when my 166 00:13:03,960 --> 00:13:09,879 sister Kathy and her girlfriend Rebeccadowski were murdered, DNA hadn't come out of the 167 00:13:09,960 --> 00:13:13,480 lab. But by the time we get to nineteen ninety six, when Lolly 168 00:13:13,639 --> 00:13:18,120 and Julie are murdered, DNA has made its way out of the lab, 169 00:13:18,200 --> 00:13:26,080 thankfully, and just for elimination purposes. You would think that everyone involved in 170 00:13:26,440 --> 00:13:31,960 responding to these murders and investigating these murders would have submitted their DNA. Heck, 171 00:13:31,200 --> 00:13:37,240 I submitted my DNA at the FBI's request about five or six years ago, 172 00:13:37,559 --> 00:13:43,080 again because my DNA could have been in my sister's car, and why 173 00:13:43,159 --> 00:13:46,279 is it, I have no problem whatsoever. They came to my office. 174 00:13:46,559 --> 00:13:52,080 They also met with my brother Richard in Washington, DC, ME and Los 175 00:13:52,080 --> 00:13:54,600 Angeles, where I was living at the time, and my younger brother in 176 00:13:54,639 --> 00:13:56,639 New York, and we said, sure, come on down, and I 177 00:13:56,679 --> 00:14:01,200 sat with the FBI agents because I wanted to have a conversation with them, 178 00:14:01,559 --> 00:14:05,600 to ask them if they knew why they were collecting the DNA, which interestingly 179 00:14:05,600 --> 00:14:09,320 they did not, but they were very curious people, and I explained a 180 00:14:09,320 --> 00:14:13,200 short version of why they were there, and I have no problem with that. 181 00:14:13,360 --> 00:14:18,360 And I don't think anyone in law enforcement or any legitimate person would have 182 00:14:18,639 --> 00:14:24,559 any difficulty whatsoever turning over their DNA so that they can be eliminated and that 183 00:14:24,600 --> 00:14:31,320 would allow their brothers and sisters in law enforcement to focus on potential suspects. 184 00:14:31,399 --> 00:14:37,240 I will challenge people listening to this podcast today to my friends in law enforcement. 185 00:14:37,600 --> 00:14:41,720 I can't believe any of you are pushing back on giving your DNA. 186 00:14:41,960 --> 00:14:45,960 It should come with the territory, so cough it up. We all did 187 00:14:46,000 --> 00:14:50,519 it, except for a handful of people that somehow are so righteous they can't 188 00:14:50,559 --> 00:14:54,320 stand the idea that their DNA would be looked at. No one's calling them 189 00:14:54,360 --> 00:14:58,360 a murderer. They're saying, let's narrow the focus to where it needs to 190 00:14:58,399 --> 00:15:03,519 be. Well, I know you've had firsthand experience and tremendous frustrations as well 191 00:15:03,600 --> 00:15:07,679 getting evidence from the scene tested as well. Right now, one of the 192 00:15:07,679 --> 00:15:13,720 things that I'm really fixated on is a bottle of Gatorade and a Walmart bag 193 00:15:13,960 --> 00:15:16,039 that were at the scene of the crime. They don't belong to Lollie and 194 00:15:16,120 --> 00:15:22,399 Julie, and Julie had a liquid in her stomach which matches the gatorade. 195 00:15:22,399 --> 00:15:28,200 They didn't buy it. Spoiler alert. We know that known serial killer Mark 196 00:15:28,240 --> 00:15:31,919 A. Vonet's regularly shopped at Walmart and also preferred to and this is really 197 00:15:31,960 --> 00:15:37,360 just sadistic and terrible, but really preferred to keep his victims well hydrated, 198 00:15:37,399 --> 00:15:43,440 and he would regularly give them energy drinks while he was molesting them and abusing 199 00:15:43,440 --> 00:15:48,320 them and assaulting them. And so again, there are fingerprints on that gatorade 200 00:15:48,360 --> 00:15:52,200 bottle. We know it doesn't belong to Lollie and Julie. We know we 201 00:15:52,279 --> 00:15:54,720 have fingerprints from the scene. Why would we not test that. There's an 202 00:15:54,720 --> 00:16:00,440 oily palm print on Julie's sleeping pad, Why would we not test that? 203 00:16:00,240 --> 00:16:04,240 Why would we not test the hair that was in Kathy Thomas's hand? I 204 00:16:04,320 --> 00:16:11,720 just it boggles the mind, it really does. We're no stranger to getting 205 00:16:11,320 --> 00:16:17,879 tips with relation to our case. Have people reached out to you with tips 206 00:16:18,159 --> 00:16:21,559 that they want you to follow up on or that they think law enforcement should 207 00:16:21,559 --> 00:16:26,440 follow up on? Oh? My, so many tips, And I would 208 00:16:26,600 --> 00:16:32,279 say all of them from very well meaning people. And I would say, 209 00:16:32,320 --> 00:16:36,799 if I can say it politely and decorously, I would say they run the 210 00:16:36,840 --> 00:16:41,440 gamut of plausibility. But I think anybody who takes the time to reach out, 211 00:16:42,200 --> 00:16:45,279 that's meaningful to me that somebody took the time to find me to tell 212 00:16:45,320 --> 00:16:48,639 me that as well. And certainly I keep track of all of them. 213 00:16:48,919 --> 00:16:56,080 Your listeners probably know that. Again, sometimes Shenandoah and the first Colonial Parkway 214 00:16:56,240 --> 00:17:00,120 set of murders are linked. And so whenever I get anything that seems like 215 00:17:00,159 --> 00:17:03,319 it might be at all relevant to the case of Kathy and Becky, I 216 00:17:03,359 --> 00:17:08,440 liked to afford that to Bill, and so he also has had a long 217 00:17:08,559 --> 00:17:12,680 suffering experience with some of these and is always a really good sport about receiving 218 00:17:12,720 --> 00:17:17,480 them as well too. But you never know. I think, if anything, 219 00:17:17,640 --> 00:17:22,319 what we're learning from podcasts and streaming shows, list serves and discussion boards 220 00:17:22,400 --> 00:17:26,119 is that citizen investigators move cases along all the time. So I think it's 221 00:17:26,119 --> 00:17:30,000 beholden upon us to take all of them seriously. Yeah, Over the years, 222 00:17:30,000 --> 00:17:33,680 both Kristen and I have fed a number of tips into the FBI, 223 00:17:33,799 --> 00:17:40,039 and again, we can't necessarily evaluate what's a good tip and what's not a 224 00:17:40,039 --> 00:17:44,519 good tip, and sometimes we talk about does this person seem completely screwed down 225 00:17:44,559 --> 00:17:48,400 to the deck or not. But even then, just because someone's a little 226 00:17:48,440 --> 00:17:52,000 out there, or maybe even a lot out there, that doesn't mean they 227 00:17:52,000 --> 00:17:56,400 shouldn't be listened to, because they may actually have something to say. And 228 00:17:56,559 --> 00:18:00,759 our attitude is we're going to turn those over to law. And because the 229 00:18:00,119 --> 00:18:04,960 FBI agents and Virginia State Police agents who were working our case, they know 230 00:18:06,000 --> 00:18:08,680 a lot more about this case than we know. Something might be said in 231 00:18:08,720 --> 00:18:14,400 a tip that would mean something to those investigators. Yeah, and I think 232 00:18:14,440 --> 00:18:18,759 anything that moves these cases along, and also I think anything that might link 233 00:18:18,839 --> 00:18:22,559 these cases to other cases as well too, I think that's really important. 234 00:18:22,799 --> 00:18:27,880 I was really appalled that when I was talking to Sadie show Walter, who's 235 00:18:27,920 --> 00:18:32,559 the surviving mother of Alicia show Walter Reynolds, who was killed about six weeks 236 00:18:32,559 --> 00:18:37,519 before Lolly and Julie, she didn't know that gloves had been being found at 237 00:18:37,559 --> 00:18:40,680 the scene of where Alicia's carr had been pulled over. She didn't know that 238 00:18:40,759 --> 00:18:45,039 cigarette butts had been found there as well. There's a very similar pair of 239 00:18:45,079 --> 00:18:48,119 gloves found at Lolly and Julie's scene, there's very similar. I don't know 240 00:18:48,200 --> 00:18:51,559 the brand because they're just butts, but cigarette butts as well too. What 241 00:18:51,599 --> 00:18:56,880 does it take then to cross test those like does even can we exclude even 242 00:18:56,160 --> 00:19:00,480 the DNA from those and the DNA from Allie and Julie's anything. I think 243 00:19:00,519 --> 00:19:04,920 that moves these cases along, not to some conclusion I want or choose, 244 00:19:06,039 --> 00:19:10,440 but to any kind of resolution whatever that looks like seems really important to me. 245 00:19:11,160 --> 00:19:15,480 Have you received any new information or tips about Avonans In particular? The 246 00:19:15,480 --> 00:19:21,920 most I think significant work that's happening on the Avonnans front is actually being spearheaded 247 00:19:21,960 --> 00:19:26,920 by Deirdre Enwright at the University of Virginia, and she and her students have 248 00:19:26,200 --> 00:19:33,359 really been combing through a lot of the evidence that was preserved from Avonitz's residence, 249 00:19:33,440 --> 00:19:38,039 and so she's been working very actively to link him to other crimes as 250 00:19:38,079 --> 00:19:41,119 well too, And I've been trying to assist on that in any way that 251 00:19:41,200 --> 00:19:45,400 I can. Again, I think that's super important as well too. When 252 00:19:45,400 --> 00:19:51,880 he was in the high speed police chase that would eventually lead to him taking 253 00:19:51,960 --> 00:19:56,440 his own life, he very famously said to his sister when she said how 254 00:19:56,440 --> 00:19:59,960 many times have you done this? And he said more times than I rememb 255 00:20:00,400 --> 00:20:04,319 And in the book I outline just a few of the leads we have about 256 00:20:04,319 --> 00:20:07,559 ways in which he was for dating on other women, some of whom are 257 00:20:07,599 --> 00:20:11,279 still alive as well too, And so for me, it's very clear. 258 00:20:11,559 --> 00:20:17,160 I think that we don't know the breadth of Avonitz's crimes, but I find 259 00:20:17,200 --> 00:20:22,680 it almost entirely unbelievable that he killed only three people, and I think anything 260 00:20:22,680 --> 00:20:26,119 that we can do to further close cases that he might have been involved in 261 00:20:26,240 --> 00:20:30,000 is really important as well, for the benefit of someone who's buying the book 262 00:20:30,039 --> 00:20:36,480 today and hasn't read it yet. Can you recap Ivanitz's history in terms of 263 00:20:36,519 --> 00:20:41,400 what we know who his specific victims are. I know we have suspicions beyond 264 00:20:41,400 --> 00:20:44,880 the core group, but can you talk a little bit about his criminal history 265 00:20:44,880 --> 00:20:48,480 as we understand it? Sure, and I'll try to do it chronologically in 266 00:20:48,559 --> 00:20:52,759 terms of how we learned things. So, he abducted a young woman named 267 00:20:52,839 --> 00:20:59,039 Kara Robinson, who was sixteen at the time, and brought her back to 268 00:20:59,160 --> 00:21:04,640 his house where he really brutally abused her in myriad sexual ways. Incidentally, 269 00:21:04,720 --> 00:21:07,400 that's part of how we know about the gatorade, is that he would try 270 00:21:07,440 --> 00:21:12,799 to keep Kara hydrated with the gatorade. He had her handcuffed and shackled to 271 00:21:12,960 --> 00:21:18,400 his bed. When he had fallen asleep for the night, she managed to 272 00:21:18,440 --> 00:21:22,759 extricate herself and get help. Her story alone is utterly fascinating and worth telling 273 00:21:22,799 --> 00:21:26,680 in more time than we probably have here. But once she was able to 274 00:21:26,720 --> 00:21:30,079 alert the authorities, and because she had done such a brilliant job of memorizing 275 00:21:30,160 --> 00:21:34,279 key details about of ants in his apartment, they were able to very quickly 276 00:21:34,279 --> 00:21:38,200 figure out who he was. And so that's what led to this high speed 277 00:21:38,279 --> 00:21:44,000 chase across multiple state lines, and it's what led to him committing suicide in 278 00:21:44,079 --> 00:21:47,960 Florida when it was very clear that he was about to be apprehended. Once 279 00:21:48,039 --> 00:21:52,559 he had been once he had killed himself, the authorities then had access to 280 00:21:52,640 --> 00:21:56,480 his DNA, to his fingerprints and things like that, and using that they 281 00:21:56,480 --> 00:22:04,920 were able to confirm that he had killed both Katie and Kristen Lisk and Sophia 282 00:22:06,000 --> 00:22:10,279 Silva, two three young women who were killed in the months right after Lolly 283 00:22:10,319 --> 00:22:14,680 and Julie in rural Virginia, and so we know those three for a fact. 284 00:22:15,359 --> 00:22:18,599 What we don't know is whether or not his DNA was ever loaded to 285 00:22:18,720 --> 00:22:25,039 Kotus. And so we don't know, and the FBI refuses to answer any 286 00:22:25,039 --> 00:22:30,200 of my Freedom of Information Act requests asking if his DNA has been loaded. 287 00:22:30,240 --> 00:22:33,720 They told me it's not in the best interest of the American public to know 288 00:22:33,839 --> 00:22:37,240 this. Of course, I don't understand how that's possible. But so we 289 00:22:37,319 --> 00:22:41,920 have those three. But we also have because we have his belongings. He 290 00:22:41,000 --> 00:22:47,799 had a chest that had dozens of women's underwear, ranging from what we're probably 291 00:22:47,880 --> 00:22:52,200 fairly young teenagers to grown women scrunches. He had locks of hair that he 292 00:22:52,240 --> 00:22:59,799 had removed, and he kept this incredibly disturbing kind of log book of women 293 00:23:00,079 --> 00:23:06,319 he was actively pursuing and in some cases stalking, using both online dating services 294 00:23:06,599 --> 00:23:10,440 phones things like that as well too. We've been able to make contact with 295 00:23:10,480 --> 00:23:14,559 a few of them and confirm that they're alive. We haven't been able to 296 00:23:14,559 --> 00:23:18,720 make contact with all of them. We also know that he had a cousin 297 00:23:18,799 --> 00:23:22,079 that shared his name who lived in Chicago, and that he spent a lot 298 00:23:22,119 --> 00:23:26,799 of time there acting as the cousin. And one of the things that Deirdre 299 00:23:26,839 --> 00:23:32,680 and I are also starting to do is really teased through these records of women 300 00:23:32,799 --> 00:23:37,000 he was pursuing in Chicago and Square that against women who either went missing or 301 00:23:37,039 --> 00:23:41,279 were murdered or have called any kind of violent cases against them. But the 302 00:23:41,359 --> 00:23:48,720 cousin for sure is not Vanitz. It's actually a separate person. Correct. 303 00:23:49,119 --> 00:23:55,279 Wow, that's something I've never heard before. Well either, Well, and 304 00:23:55,319 --> 00:23:59,480 his full name is Richard Marks. Is that right to see? And I'm 305 00:24:00,119 --> 00:24:03,759 did too. Is he had a definite emo and he would bind the women 306 00:24:03,799 --> 00:24:10,480 in a particular way. He would kindetrate them, usually was foreign objects, 307 00:24:10,519 --> 00:24:12,920 and then there was a way that he would tend to leave them after they 308 00:24:12,920 --> 00:24:18,880 were killed. There's a very similar case here in Maine involving a young woman 309 00:24:18,960 --> 00:24:23,640 named Sarah Cherry that one hundred percent fits this m down to the stolen car, 310 00:24:23,839 --> 00:24:27,000 which was another thing that Evanets used to do. And we know for 311 00:24:27,039 --> 00:24:33,559 an absolute fact that he happened to be stationed at the naval base and the 312 00:24:33,640 --> 00:24:38,240 iron works, a shipyard here in Maine, literally ten miles away from where 313 00:24:38,240 --> 00:24:44,079 this crime happened, right when it happened. There's a huge number of people 314 00:24:44,359 --> 00:24:47,920 here in the state of Maine who believed that he actually committed that as well 315 00:24:47,960 --> 00:24:52,480 too, And there's currently an innocence movement. A man was convicted of the 316 00:24:52,480 --> 00:24:56,920 crime and his serving life in prison, and most people here have always assumed 317 00:24:56,960 --> 00:25:00,839 his innocence, And there's a growing movement right now to get some of the 318 00:25:00,920 --> 00:25:03,519 DNA that was taken from this particular crime scene and to see if you can 319 00:25:03,519 --> 00:25:08,079 get it tested against of honors. Has there been any luck in obtaining his 320 00:25:08,279 --> 00:25:12,160 naval service records? I do find it interesting that he was in the Navy, 321 00:25:12,559 --> 00:25:17,279 as was Kathy, and we are a naval area right here, and 322 00:25:17,279 --> 00:25:19,880 we have every type of military base around here, we are primarily Navy. 323 00:25:21,599 --> 00:25:25,480 Any luck in getting those records. I don't have his full records, but 324 00:25:25,559 --> 00:25:29,319 I do know that he spent most of his time here on the East coast 325 00:25:29,440 --> 00:25:34,000 on the Kolsch, which was the ship that was used very oddly to collect 326 00:25:34,079 --> 00:25:38,039 the remains after the Challenger disaster, the Challenger explosion, the Space Shuttle, 327 00:25:38,799 --> 00:25:42,880 and so that's probably if listeners know that name, that's how and so with 328 00:25:44,000 --> 00:25:48,319 some accuracy we can say where the Kolsch was, and so where he was 329 00:25:48,359 --> 00:25:52,440 as well too, but I don't personally have his naval records. I would 330 00:25:52,440 --> 00:25:56,559 love to get them, however, because I think that again, knowing where 331 00:25:56,599 --> 00:26:00,079 he was, knowing his propensity for these types of times, I don't think 332 00:26:00,119 --> 00:26:06,240 we can say with any certainty whatever that it was only three victims. Do 333 00:26:06,279 --> 00:26:11,319 we know how to spell Kolesh, the USS Kolesh the ship itself. You're 334 00:26:11,319 --> 00:26:12,960 gonna have to check me on it, but I'm going to try to remember 335 00:26:12,960 --> 00:26:19,240 that it's Kolsh. I'm not exactly sure about that C, but that'll get 336 00:26:19,599 --> 00:26:23,400 close enough for sure. We'll look that up. Boy, it'd be interesting 337 00:26:23,720 --> 00:26:30,079 if any of our listeners know anyone that ever served aboard the US KOLs we'd 338 00:26:30,119 --> 00:26:33,279 love to talk to you. And I know that many Navy ships, including 339 00:26:33,480 --> 00:26:38,480 the Y Spear that the ship that my sister served aboard, there are groups 340 00:26:38,559 --> 00:26:44,440 that are kind of alumni groups of service personnel who had served on ships. 341 00:26:44,440 --> 00:26:48,799 If anyone knows anyone that has ever served aboard the Kolch, we'd love to 342 00:26:48,799 --> 00:26:53,720 talk with you. The idea of getting Richard markovan It's's service records is a 343 00:26:53,880 --> 00:26:59,200 really interesting one. And one other quick thing in talking to my dad, 344 00:26:59,200 --> 00:27:03,000 who is also a NAI officer. He had mentioned to me that when ships 345 00:27:03,000 --> 00:27:07,319 are in dry dock, as Avonnans's ship would have been up at the Bath 346 00:27:07,440 --> 00:27:12,880 Iron Works in Beautiful Maine, there's a lot of downtime for the personnel that 347 00:27:12,920 --> 00:27:17,839 are aboard those ships. They're still assigned to the ship, but they're not 348 00:27:17,960 --> 00:27:22,319 out at sea. It's more of a nine to five kind of job when 349 00:27:22,359 --> 00:27:27,279 you're in dry dock because you're literally not going anywhere, and so there's much 350 00:27:27,319 --> 00:27:33,680 more downtime for the men and women that serverboard those ships because during those months 351 00:27:33,759 --> 00:27:37,119 or even be a year or more, while the ships are being refitted or 352 00:27:37,160 --> 00:27:41,039 repaired, they end up, as my dad put it, they have a 353 00:27:41,079 --> 00:27:42,759 lot more time off and they have a lot more time to get into trouble. 354 00:27:45,720 --> 00:27:48,480 You're listening to Mind over Murder. Will be right back after this word 355 00:27:48,519 --> 00:28:03,359 from our sponsors. We're back here at Mind Murder. And we know that 356 00:28:03,440 --> 00:28:07,079 evanits is one of his favorite pastimes was driving around country roads. We know 357 00:28:07,160 --> 00:28:11,960 that was a real hobby of his. We know that he would regularly break 358 00:28:12,279 --> 00:28:17,079 about stealing cars and how easy it was to hot wire cars. And again 359 00:28:17,119 --> 00:28:21,119 we know his m and so when you take a look at this particular case, 360 00:28:21,720 --> 00:28:25,599 you consider the man Dennis de Shane, who's currently serving life in prison, 361 00:28:25,759 --> 00:28:30,240 zero criminal history, zero criminal record whatsoever, zero evidence of violence that 362 00:28:30,319 --> 00:28:33,720 anyone could find. And then you consider a mark of Vonts and you look 363 00:28:33,720 --> 00:28:38,759 at this particular case again, logically speaking, he makes an infinitely better suspect. 364 00:28:40,359 --> 00:28:44,400 Wow. Absolutely, I want to switch gears for one second away from 365 00:28:44,640 --> 00:28:48,480 Evans and let's talk a little bit. You're a dedicated runner, You're a 366 00:28:48,519 --> 00:28:55,640 dedicated outdoors woman. How do you feel about the outdoors, in your safety 367 00:28:55,799 --> 00:28:57,960 in it? Right about now, it's been about a year since this came 368 00:28:57,960 --> 00:29:03,000 out. Are you with your relationship with the outdoors. I still have not 369 00:29:03,079 --> 00:29:10,319 been able to solo camp in a tent. I think having seen the crime 370 00:29:10,359 --> 00:29:12,799 seeing photos, and I know you two have had experience with this as well. 371 00:29:14,240 --> 00:29:18,640 Having seen the crime, seeing photos and having them just really indelibly seared 372 00:29:18,720 --> 00:29:22,440 in my brain, it is very difficult for me to be an attent and 373 00:29:22,599 --> 00:29:29,640 not feel panicked. My brain just draws this immediate connection. And so while 374 00:29:29,680 --> 00:29:34,240 I know that statistically speaking, backpacking and camping somewhere like Maine, I'm extremely 375 00:29:34,319 --> 00:29:40,160 safe, it's not a psychologically pleasant experience for me. So I haven't done 376 00:29:40,200 --> 00:29:41,880 that, but I do spend a lot of time in the wilderness. I'm 377 00:29:41,880 --> 00:29:45,359 an avid trail runner, I'm a hiker, and I'd like to joke right 378 00:29:45,400 --> 00:29:51,640 now that at this point I'm so angry about all of this that God help 379 00:29:52,079 --> 00:29:56,240 the serial killer or serial rapist who attempts to approach me in the wilderness, 380 00:29:56,519 --> 00:29:59,720 because that prop person is probably going to be going to the police claiming that 381 00:29:59,759 --> 00:30:03,440 they we are being harassed and threatened because I'm so And I do not say 382 00:30:03,440 --> 00:30:06,440 that as a challenge, but I do say that I am just in a 383 00:30:06,480 --> 00:30:10,640 place right now where when you think about the politics of the country, when 384 00:30:10,640 --> 00:30:15,119 you think about the ongoing misogyny in the country. And I say this as 385 00:30:15,119 --> 00:30:18,359 a woman, I say this as somebody who identifies as queer. I say 386 00:30:18,359 --> 00:30:23,839 this as a sexual assault survivor. I am so angry about what it is 387 00:30:23,839 --> 00:30:27,359 to be a woman in our culture right now, and so I think that 388 00:30:27,480 --> 00:30:32,839 kind of fuels me a little bit in the wilderness, But it's also it's 389 00:30:32,839 --> 00:30:37,440 a place of real beauty and refuge, and I really believe in the value 390 00:30:37,480 --> 00:30:41,000 of forest bathing and immersing yourself in the wilderness as well too, and I 391 00:30:41,039 --> 00:30:45,079 think everyone should get to have access to that. Let me ask you a 392 00:30:45,160 --> 00:30:48,680 question that I don't think I've ever asked you before. If you are going 393 00:30:48,720 --> 00:30:53,880 to be through hiking the Appalachian Trail, and I know the usual route is 394 00:30:55,160 --> 00:31:00,960 to start in May in Georgia and then head north ending in May, sometimes 395 00:31:00,119 --> 00:31:04,279 taking an entire summer to do that, which sounds like a wonderful experience, 396 00:31:04,279 --> 00:31:07,079 and I know people that have done it. If you were to do that 397 00:31:07,200 --> 00:31:12,039 today, would you carry a weapon? That's a good question. Does bear 398 00:31:12,039 --> 00:31:18,119 spray count as a weapon? I would say so point of view of the 399 00:31:18,160 --> 00:31:22,920 person or bear at the receiving end. Yeah, I think there's I have 400 00:31:23,119 --> 00:31:27,440 very mixed thoughts on firearms in this country, as I detail in the book. 401 00:31:27,480 --> 00:31:32,680 I did go through multiple firearms courses and training, and I feel like 402 00:31:32,720 --> 00:31:37,960 that was really the right decision for me. I am not entirely comfortable with 403 00:31:37,240 --> 00:31:42,359 gun ownership as it's defined in this country right now, bear spray seems like 404 00:31:42,400 --> 00:31:47,480 a really reasonable tool. The other thing I always thought about with guns, 405 00:31:47,519 --> 00:31:49,200 too, is I always joke like, what are the logistics there? If 406 00:31:49,200 --> 00:31:52,440 my gun is in my backpack and I'm being apprehended, Do I just say, 407 00:31:52,480 --> 00:31:55,759 hang on just one second, I just need to take this pack off. 408 00:31:55,759 --> 00:32:00,400 And whereas a tiny little canister of bear spray angling on your backpack, 409 00:32:00,480 --> 00:32:05,839 that seems like a reasonable thing to have for a variety of reason, including 410 00:32:05,960 --> 00:32:09,680 grabbed animals, so that that seems like a fair compromise to me. Are 411 00:32:09,720 --> 00:32:15,680 there additional steps the National Park Service could take in making people safe in the 412 00:32:15,720 --> 00:32:21,240 back country? Do you think, oh, how much time do we have? 413 00:32:23,599 --> 00:32:28,559 Critically? Yes, answer. One of the things that first of all, 414 00:32:28,559 --> 00:32:31,680 that I outline in the book is that there is currently no codified mechanism 415 00:32:31,720 --> 00:32:37,599 for reporting violent crimes. So as citizens of this country and as park goers, 416 00:32:37,680 --> 00:32:42,799 we don't know how many crimes are occurring. We know that the GAO, 417 00:32:42,960 --> 00:32:47,039 the Government Accountability Office, has done several studies and taken the Park Service 418 00:32:47,079 --> 00:32:52,720 in the Department of the Interior to task for their lack of reporting. It's 419 00:32:52,799 --> 00:32:55,640 up to whoever is the head ranger and whoever is the superintendent of a park, 420 00:32:55,720 --> 00:33:00,359 whether or not these crimes ever get reported, and frank, to what 421 00:33:00,400 --> 00:33:05,039 degree they ever get investigated. So first and foremost we can start accurately accounting 422 00:33:05,079 --> 00:33:08,039 for that and once we actually know how pervasive the problem is, and I 423 00:33:08,039 --> 00:33:14,079 think we can take more steps. The Park Service is woefully underfunded. There's 424 00:33:14,119 --> 00:33:19,000 a lot of attrition happening with rangers. Law enforcement rangers are not always adequately 425 00:33:19,039 --> 00:33:23,759 trained, they don't have adequate weapons or communication devices. In some cases, 426 00:33:23,799 --> 00:33:29,720 there's only one law enforcement ranger for an entire part that is going to span 427 00:33:30,000 --> 00:33:35,440 in some cases hundreds of square miles. So I think policing and making that 428 00:33:35,640 --> 00:33:42,240 presence known in a way that's obviously not intrusive and kind of stormtroopery for visitors, 429 00:33:42,279 --> 00:33:45,200 but making sure that folks know that you don't get a pass. There 430 00:33:45,720 --> 00:33:50,480 is something else that's really important as well. The Park Service has been criticized 431 00:33:50,519 --> 00:33:54,440 though for a culture of cover up over the years. They've been likened to 432 00:33:54,480 --> 00:33:59,599 the Catholic Church, and I was an altar boy many years ago in raised 433 00:33:59,640 --> 00:34:04,880 Catholic. The Park Service has been criticized in writing, in magazine articles, 434 00:34:04,920 --> 00:34:12,239 in books by people inside the organization and outside that they cover up criminality among 435 00:34:12,639 --> 00:34:20,480 National Park Service employees, as well as downplay statistics involving crime, vandalism, 436 00:34:20,519 --> 00:34:23,920 potential violence within the National Park Service. How do you feel about that? 437 00:34:24,440 --> 00:34:28,800 I think it's accurate. Well, I know you're familiar with this work, 438 00:34:28,840 --> 00:34:31,480 and I don't know if your listeners are at Paul Burkowitz has written two books 439 00:34:31,599 --> 00:34:37,079 really exploring this in depth, and I highly recommend them if this is an 440 00:34:37,119 --> 00:34:40,800 interesting subject. His book on the Indian Trader, which is a story of 441 00:34:40,840 --> 00:34:45,360 what happened in the Grand Canyon, I think is particularly relevant and particularly telling. 442 00:34:45,440 --> 00:34:50,719 He's a former law enforcement ranger himself, and he talks about this notion 443 00:34:50,880 --> 00:34:57,480 that's called noble cause corruption, where sometimes rangers or any law enforcement officer will 444 00:34:57,559 --> 00:35:04,119 do the wrong thing legally or morally because they believe it's the right thing to, 445 00:35:04,199 --> 00:35:08,400 for instance, protect a fellow ranger or preserve the sense of calm and 446 00:35:08,519 --> 00:35:14,960 peacefulness within a park. He outlines in real detail some of how this happens, 447 00:35:15,079 --> 00:35:19,280 and this transfer system, which is very similar to this idea of the 448 00:35:19,320 --> 00:35:23,159 Catholic Church, especially what we saw in Boston during the sexual abuse cover ups 449 00:35:23,159 --> 00:35:28,159 that were happening, is that harrishes would transfer a priest rather than hold the 450 00:35:28,159 --> 00:35:30,760 priest accountable. And we've seen this in the Park Service as well, that 451 00:35:31,000 --> 00:35:37,119 rangers who have either been found negligent or have had disciplinary action taken against them, 452 00:35:37,199 --> 00:35:42,119 rather than having that get filed or sent up the personnel chain, they 453 00:35:42,119 --> 00:35:45,199 in fact have been transferred to other parks as well. And what I think 454 00:35:45,280 --> 00:35:47,840 is really most disturbing about that is we don't really have a sense of how 455 00:35:47,880 --> 00:35:52,480 often that happens, but we know that it's enough that it's a significant problem. 456 00:35:52,400 --> 00:35:54,840 All Right, I want to make our listeners jealous for a second and 457 00:35:54,920 --> 00:35:59,559 tell them about the fact that I did get to meet you in person. 458 00:36:00,119 --> 00:36:04,280 Was it only a week ago? Wow? Was it two weeks ago, 459 00:36:04,440 --> 00:36:07,440 ten days ago? Okay, all right, Yeah, whatever it was, 460 00:36:07,840 --> 00:36:09,960 it was a wonderful experience to get to hang out with you. So tell 461 00:36:10,039 --> 00:36:15,639 us a little bit about your speaking engagement at the Library of Virginia and what 462 00:36:15,800 --> 00:36:20,360 all that entailed. Yeah. I was really delighted to be asked by them 463 00:36:20,440 --> 00:36:25,639 to come speak, especially because Richmond is obviously so close to where these crimes 464 00:36:25,639 --> 00:36:30,760 occurred, and I know how deeply personal it is for so many of the 465 00:36:30,800 --> 00:36:34,840 people there. So in addition to get to have some time with the great 466 00:36:34,920 --> 00:36:38,360 Christen Dilley, I was really thrilled to be able to talk to the audience 467 00:36:38,360 --> 00:36:45,000 as well too, And I was really profoundly moved by the number of people 468 00:36:45,159 --> 00:36:51,719 who waited online after to chat and to tell me their stories. And it 469 00:36:51,760 --> 00:36:53,880 was people who used to go to the park and don't go to the park 470 00:36:53,920 --> 00:36:59,000 anymore. It was a woman whose husband had been an initial suspect and the 471 00:36:59,039 --> 00:37:02,039 family had really been and for an apart by that, it was a lot 472 00:37:02,079 --> 00:37:07,000 of people who had a very personal connection to these stories. And for me, 473 00:37:07,079 --> 00:37:14,480 as a journalist, it's incredibly poignant to hear those stories and to remind 474 00:37:14,559 --> 00:37:19,719 myself not only how deeply personal it is for the immediate friends and family of 475 00:37:19,840 --> 00:37:23,480 victims, but the way in which these kinds of acts of violence really do 476 00:37:23,639 --> 00:37:29,840 start to serve as hate crimes in the sense that they take entire demographics and 477 00:37:29,960 --> 00:37:35,880 radically change their relationship to play. And for so many of the people that 478 00:37:35,960 --> 00:37:42,199 I met at this library event, this event radically altered and negatively altered their 479 00:37:42,199 --> 00:37:46,039 relationship not only with Shenandoah but with the wilderness. Writ large in the book 480 00:37:46,440 --> 00:37:51,880 Trail, do you talk about this quite a bit, how meaningful the outdoors 481 00:37:51,920 --> 00:37:54,719 have been for you as a woman and as an outdoors woman, and for 482 00:37:54,760 --> 00:38:00,480 so many other people that you've befriended yet here we are again. You're speaking 483 00:38:00,480 --> 00:38:05,079 about the book. The book's been out for a year, it's had a 484 00:38:05,159 --> 00:38:08,599 tremendous impact, but you're hearing from people who are talking about the ripple effect 485 00:38:08,800 --> 00:38:14,280 of this nineteen ninety six double homicide. Yeah, And when I was working 486 00:38:14,320 --> 00:38:16,639 on the book, I interviewed Claudia Brunner. She and her partner, Rebecca 487 00:38:16,679 --> 00:38:22,800 White were both shot just off the Appalachian Trail. Rebecca was killed, Claudia 488 00:38:22,960 --> 00:38:28,519 had multiple bullets in her and somehow managed to hike miles out and get help. 489 00:38:28,599 --> 00:38:31,079 And she wrote about that very poignantly in a book called Eight Bullets, 490 00:38:31,079 --> 00:38:35,639 and she talked not only about what it was to be the victim of what 491 00:38:35,800 --> 00:38:38,679 was a very intentional hate crime, but then also what it was to be 492 00:38:38,880 --> 00:38:45,000 investigated by law enforcement officers who had next to no experience dealing with someone who 493 00:38:45,039 --> 00:38:50,400 had been in the same sex relationship and just how re traumatizing that Plus the 494 00:38:50,480 --> 00:38:52,920 court was, And we had talked about this notion of hate crime and what 495 00:38:53,079 --> 00:38:59,360 is a hate crime, because Lollie and Julie's legal case very famously became the 496 00:38:59,440 --> 00:39:04,320 first official federal hate crime case in the United States. So there's a lot 497 00:39:04,360 --> 00:39:08,000 of really significant historical resonance there. People are very divided about whether or not 498 00:39:08,119 --> 00:39:14,000 this was i hate crime in terms of the perpetrator's motivations, whether the perpetrator 499 00:39:14,079 --> 00:39:16,840 was aware of Lolly and Julie's sexuality. But what Claudia Brenner said to me, 500 00:39:16,880 --> 00:39:21,159 and I've always just really taken this to heart, as she said, 501 00:39:21,719 --> 00:39:29,880 for me and for my entire community of lesbian women, we no longer feel 502 00:39:29,920 --> 00:39:32,840 safe in the wilderness, and in that regard for every woman, for every 503 00:39:34,000 --> 00:39:37,800 lgbt person who has severed their relationship with the wilderness because of this violence. 504 00:39:37,920 --> 00:39:42,960 This is absolutely a hate crime, and that's a really important distinction to me. 505 00:39:43,039 --> 00:39:45,599 We can talk about hate crimes in terms of the perpetrator and the motivation, 506 00:39:45,800 --> 00:39:51,920 but I think understanding the deep impact of a crime is just as useful 507 00:39:51,960 --> 00:39:55,440 in terms of identifying it as a potential hate crime. There's a flip flop 508 00:39:55,519 --> 00:40:02,320 there, I think that has happened where people that were identify with the LGBTQ 509 00:40:02,719 --> 00:40:09,480 community would probably say that they feel safer in America's big cities than they would 510 00:40:09,559 --> 00:40:14,599 somewhere out in a beautiful spot in the middle of the woods or mountains. 511 00:40:15,280 --> 00:40:17,239 I think people think, oh, you're much more at risk if you're in 512 00:40:17,239 --> 00:40:22,280 a big city. And yet for I think a lot of members of this 513 00:40:22,360 --> 00:40:27,480 community, they feel safer there in the big town than they ever would in 514 00:40:27,519 --> 00:40:32,679 the woods, probably because of the number of incidents like this, of harassment, 515 00:40:34,000 --> 00:40:39,320 assault. You can just keep escalating rape, murder. Even though hate 516 00:40:39,360 --> 00:40:46,159 crime is not an expression used commonly till about nineteen ninety six, the phenomenon 517 00:40:46,599 --> 00:40:52,320 and this sad series of incidents has been going on for decades. Yeah, 518 00:40:52,320 --> 00:40:54,639 and we can fold in all sorts of what we call socially subordinate groups, 519 00:40:54,639 --> 00:40:59,360 and that as well too, the number of black people and bipoc people who 520 00:40:59,360 --> 00:41:02,199 don't feel safe in the wilderness, not only because of current events, but 521 00:41:02,320 --> 00:41:08,639 also this kind of epigenetic generational memory of centuries of really terrible things that have 522 00:41:08,719 --> 00:41:13,239 happened to people of color in the wilderness as well too. And so one 523 00:41:13,239 --> 00:41:16,440 of the things I definitely wanted to try to highlight in the book is this 524 00:41:16,559 --> 00:41:22,039 question of who gets to feel safe in our parks and our forests and our 525 00:41:22,079 --> 00:41:24,800 deserts and our wilderness places. Who gets to feel safe and why? And 526 00:41:24,840 --> 00:41:28,760 I think as a country and as a culture, we still have so much 527 00:41:28,760 --> 00:41:32,599 work to do on that front. It's really a position of privilege to go 528 00:41:32,719 --> 00:41:36,679 for a hike in the woods and feel safe and not be looking over your 529 00:41:36,679 --> 00:41:38,639 shoulder, and I think we haven't really talked about that as a country. 530 00:41:39,480 --> 00:41:45,440 Kate. I'm scanning right now. You're archives on Outside magazine, and you've 531 00:41:45,440 --> 00:41:51,679 done a lot of work, wonderful work for Outside before there was Trailed. 532 00:41:51,800 --> 00:41:57,000 It looks like there was a lot of different articles about murder and violence on 533 00:41:57,039 --> 00:42:00,800 the at Can you highlight for our listeners some of the additional reporting that you've 534 00:42:00,840 --> 00:42:05,280 done for Outside and where they can find it tour. One of the most 535 00:42:05,400 --> 00:42:12,480 heartbreaking cases actually occurred while I was writing one of the penultimate drafts of Trailed, 536 00:42:12,559 --> 00:42:15,480 and that was the murder of Ron Sanchez, who had been hiking. 537 00:42:15,559 --> 00:42:21,079 He was a veteran of the Middle Eastern conflict and he had come back and 538 00:42:21,400 --> 00:42:25,920 had was experiencing PTSD and really found a sense of renewal in hiking, which 539 00:42:25,960 --> 00:42:30,880 I think so many of us have. He was attempting a through hike on 540 00:42:30,920 --> 00:42:36,719 the trail when a young man who had some profound mental illness and long history 541 00:42:36,760 --> 00:42:40,800 of violence assaulted not only Ron Sanchez, but three other hikers who happened to 542 00:42:40,840 --> 00:42:45,000 be camping for the night as well, and Ron really, I think valiantly 543 00:42:45,320 --> 00:42:50,880 tried to save the other three hikers and lost his life as a result. 544 00:42:50,920 --> 00:42:53,719 So that was a case that really resonated with me and just made it really 545 00:42:53,840 --> 00:42:59,639 real how this continues to be a problem on the trail. And there are 546 00:42:59,639 --> 00:43:01,880 others as well too, Thankfully not a lot, and I think that's a 547 00:43:01,920 --> 00:43:07,079 really important point to make, but addressing these and thinking about these, I 548 00:43:07,079 --> 00:43:10,239 think is really important. And luckily, when I served as trail correspondent for 549 00:43:10,320 --> 00:43:15,320 Outside magazine, I rod leeway in terms of what I was covering, so 550 00:43:15,360 --> 00:43:19,480 I could tell those stories which are again really upsetting. I told stories about 551 00:43:19,480 --> 00:43:23,559 the history of segregation Shenandoah, but then there were also fun stories to like 552 00:43:23,639 --> 00:43:28,840 folks who were setting fastest known time attempts on the trails and some of the 553 00:43:29,119 --> 00:43:32,280 silliness of the Appalachian trail culture as well too. It was really a very 554 00:43:32,320 --> 00:43:37,000 sort of immersive experience for me to do that work, and I really loved 555 00:43:37,039 --> 00:43:40,360 it. Yeah, just from a total fangirl perspective, Here did you I 556 00:43:40,360 --> 00:43:44,639 saw you wrote two pieces about Scott Jarek. Did you get to meet him? 557 00:43:44,679 --> 00:43:50,199 I did. Oh my god, that's so cool. Yeah, And 558 00:43:50,880 --> 00:43:53,199 he and Carl Meltzer both had and I don't think they'll mind me saying that 559 00:43:53,599 --> 00:43:58,800 they both had a very show up and blow up fastest known time attempt. 560 00:43:59,000 --> 00:44:05,360 I really loved the little guys who aren't sponsored and don't have all of the 561 00:44:05,440 --> 00:44:08,480 kind of bells and whistles and fandom following them, who have gone on to 562 00:44:08,519 --> 00:44:13,800 do it very quietly in the old fashioned way. I'm a traditionalist where that's 563 00:44:13,800 --> 00:44:16,960 concerned. I'm always cheering for those guys. And because I know you don't 564 00:44:16,960 --> 00:44:22,519 know Bell, Scott Jarek is a He's an ultra runner and he made an 565 00:44:22,519 --> 00:44:28,360 FKT fastest fastest known time attempt to run the eight It's insane. He wrote 566 00:44:28,360 --> 00:44:31,480 an amazing book about it, and I'm in love with his book. It's 567 00:44:31,519 --> 00:44:35,880 amazing. So I'm very jealous. You got to meet Scott Jarek, Kate, 568 00:44:36,000 --> 00:44:38,800 that's so cool. Help well, if I can recommend Jen far Davis, 569 00:44:38,800 --> 00:44:43,880 who held the record for quite some time regardless of gender. She has 570 00:44:43,920 --> 00:44:46,039 a book that came out a couple of years ago called The Pursuit of Endurance, 571 00:44:46,519 --> 00:44:50,840 where she tells not only her own story, but she talks to a 572 00:44:50,840 --> 00:44:55,800 lot of these fastest known time record holders in these very long distance hikers and 573 00:44:55,920 --> 00:44:59,840 runners to look at, what is it that motivates us to do this? 574 00:45:00,400 --> 00:45:02,199 Why are we so compelled by it? And I just think it's a wonderful 575 00:45:02,239 --> 00:45:06,119 book, all right, I wrote it down. Yeah, And you do 576 00:45:06,239 --> 00:45:09,599 ultra You do ultras as well. You were recovering from one still when we 577 00:45:09,679 --> 00:45:14,840 talked. For anybody who doesn't know, can you tell what an ultra marathon 578 00:45:14,960 --> 00:45:16,760 is and why do you do them? Yeah? The first part of that 579 00:45:16,840 --> 00:45:21,760 is easier to answer than the second. So an ultra technically is any race 580 00:45:21,840 --> 00:45:25,239 that's longer than twenty six point two miles. In trail running, one of 581 00:45:25,239 --> 00:45:30,119 the most common distances is fifty kilometers, and then fifty miles, one hundred 582 00:45:30,159 --> 00:45:35,440 kilometers and one hundred miles. And I have a dear friend and running partner 583 00:45:35,480 --> 00:45:38,280 who talks about how you do this, and she calls it burrito pace. 584 00:45:38,400 --> 00:45:43,559 And so basically, if you can't eat a bean and cheese burrito at the 585 00:45:43,599 --> 00:45:45,800 pace that you're running, you're doing it too fast. So that's a huge 586 00:45:45,840 --> 00:45:50,960 part of why that's my christ and I know you run five ks. I 587 00:45:50,960 --> 00:45:53,159 would rather run fifty miles in a five k. I feel like five k's 588 00:45:53,199 --> 00:45:59,159 are the most painful thing ever, whereas looking along in the woods for a 589 00:45:59,280 --> 00:46:01,599 day feels a lot more manageable to me too. So I think it's people 590 00:46:01,639 --> 00:46:05,880 like you who are doing the like crazy hardcore work. Oh thank you, 591 00:46:05,880 --> 00:46:08,360 I appreciate it. All I can say is color me intimidated with these two 592 00:46:08,400 --> 00:46:17,079 amazing work. Can I just stay home and man the phones and maybe have 593 00:46:17,159 --> 00:46:24,679 a burrito and root you on. We're so thrilled that you were able to 594 00:46:24,679 --> 00:46:28,800 spend some time talking with this today. If people want to find your book, 595 00:46:28,800 --> 00:46:30,519 and I don't see any reason why they wouldn't, where can they go 596 00:46:30,559 --> 00:46:34,320 to find your book? Where is it available? I always love it when 597 00:46:34,320 --> 00:46:39,320 people patronize their local independent bookstores, so that's always my very favorite go to. 598 00:46:39,440 --> 00:46:43,440 If they don't have it, they can certainly order it. Obviously, 599 00:46:43,559 --> 00:46:47,159 Amazon is another option as well too, And we're just really glad for anybody 600 00:46:47,159 --> 00:46:54,679 who takes the time and our natural question what's next for Catherine Kate Miles. 601 00:46:55,559 --> 00:47:02,639 We finally put together the full package for the streaming series version of the book 602 00:47:02,719 --> 00:47:08,639 We've just signed on a really wonderful director. I don't know if I'm actually 603 00:47:08,679 --> 00:47:13,719 allowed to say her name yet, but she's exactly perfect for this. And 604 00:47:13,760 --> 00:47:16,519 so now right now as we speak, we're starting to take this out to 605 00:47:16,679 --> 00:47:22,440 market. And that's a really exciting prospect for me, largely because I think 606 00:47:22,440 --> 00:47:25,880 it's an entirely different population to reach by way of this story. And I 607 00:47:25,960 --> 00:47:31,199 also feel like it's a really great opportunity to continue the investigation and to talk 608 00:47:31,239 --> 00:47:36,599 in more detail about everything that's happened since the book was published. They called 609 00:47:36,639 --> 00:47:39,440 me a week or two ago and said, would I be willing to appear 610 00:47:39,480 --> 00:47:43,519 on camera and talk about you in the book? And I said I'd think 611 00:47:43,559 --> 00:47:50,400 about it. I know better than that, and I'm already grateful the number 612 00:47:50,440 --> 00:47:54,519 of favors I need to repay to Bill Thomas, a list that I feel 613 00:47:54,559 --> 00:47:58,119 I'm never going to be able to get through. And I was thrilled, 614 00:47:58,199 --> 00:48:02,480 actually that after this mutual admiration society, I was thrilled that you and Kristen 615 00:48:02,519 --> 00:48:07,000 were actually able to be in the same room. And she just came home 616 00:48:07,280 --> 00:48:14,519 buzzed from your incredible talk at the Library of Virginia again talk about mutual admiration 617 00:48:14,639 --> 00:48:17,119 societies. I honestly, I think the work that you do is so great, 618 00:48:17,159 --> 00:48:22,159 and to finally get to sit and chat with you was just such a 619 00:48:22,199 --> 00:48:24,679 gift for me too, and was absolutely worth the trip. So thank you. 620 00:48:25,239 --> 00:48:29,639 Good call on the two of you having an early dinner beforehand, because 621 00:48:29,639 --> 00:48:35,280 it sounded like everybody wanted to talk to Kay after your talk. But afterwards, 622 00:48:35,280 --> 00:48:37,920 I stumbled back to my hotel room and I think I was a in 623 00:48:37,000 --> 00:48:40,000 bed five minutes later, so I wouldn't have been much of a dinner date 624 00:48:40,039 --> 00:48:46,159 after all of that. The book is trailed one woman's quest to solve the 625 00:48:46,199 --> 00:48:52,519 Shenandoah murders, and we can definitely hope for that eventual ending. Okay, 626 00:48:52,559 --> 00:48:54,480 thank you so much for joining us in this episode of mind Over Murder. 627 00:48:55,280 --> 00:48:59,679 My pleasure. Thank you for having me that's going to do it for this 628 00:48:59,679 --> 00:49:13,960 episode. Thanks so much for listening. We'll see you next time. Mind 629 00:49:13,960 --> 00:49:20,039 Over Murder is a production of Absolute Zero and Another Dog Productions. Our executive 630 00:49:20,039 --> 00:49:24,360 producers are Bill Thomas and Kristin Dilley. Our logo art is by Pamela Arnois. 631 00:49:25,000 --> 00:49:30,440 Our theme music is by Kevin McLeod. Mind Over Murder is distributed in 632 00:49:30,519 --> 00:49:35,440 partnership with Coral Space Media. You can follow us on Facebook, Twitter, 633 00:49:35,679 --> 00:49:39,000 or Instagram. You can also follow our page on the Colonial Parkway Murders on 634 00:49:39,039 --> 00:49:44,679 Facebook, and finally, you can follow Bill Thomas on Twitter at Bill Thomas. 635 00:49:44,920 --> 00:50:24,400 Five six. Thank you for listening to mind Over Murder