You are listening to the IFH podcast Network. For more amazing filmmaking and screenwriting
podcasts, just go to ifahpodcastnetwork dot com. Welcome to the Bulletproof Screenwriting Podcast,
Episode number three fifty five. The most honest form of filmmaking is to
make a film for yourself. Peter Jackson broadcasting from a dark, windowless room
in Hollywood when we really should be working on that next draft. It's the
Bulletproof Screenwriting Podcast, showing you the craft and business of screenwriting while teaching you
how to make your screenplay bulletproof. And here's your host, Alex Ferrari.
Welcome, Welcome to another episode of the Bulletproof Screenwriting Podcast. I am your
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before we get started, you might have missed yesterday's amazing seminar with film financing
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to indiefilm, Hustle dot com, forward slash pro and there you'll be able
to check out that, join the tribe there, ask questions, and so
much other stuff that we have going on there, so definitely check it out
now. Today on the show, we have entrepreneur, producer, writer and
director Michael D. Ratner, and Michael's a really interesting filmmaker and creative.
He started his production company OBB Pictures back in twenty sixteen and has been directing
television, digital podcast, branded content, social movies, music videos, everything
and has a mass over one point six billion views for all of his content.
He's worked with companies like Netflix and YouTube, and has worked with some
of the biggest stars in the world like Kevin Hart, Demi Lovado, Elton
John, and Justin Bieber, just to name a few. And Michael and
I had a really great conversation about how he's been able to build up his
production company, what he's been able to do, how he does it,
and so much more so, without any further ado, please enjoy my conversation
with Michael D. Ratner. I'd like to welcome to the show, Michael
D. Rattner. How you doing, Michael, Oh are you? I'm
good man, I'm good. How's how's life treating you? In this weird,
wacky world we live in? Making it through weird and wacky. We're
weird and wackies say oh God, and you're doing productions left and right,
and I'm assuming you never know what's going to happen, the film gets positive
or not. It's just such a weird world man, we're living in.
Yeah, I don't remember shooting prior to this, you know. I gotta
say, though it's been it's been great. We have managed to stay shooting
the entire time. That's amazing. We pivoted early. We we do this
show a Kevin Hart called Cold as Balls and that was the first virtual shoot
we did, like the second week into COVID in twenty twenty, and then
we went right into Dancing with the Devil and we've been NonStop. But testing
is now like in the DNA of what you do in a day for a
film shoots, so's well and masks everywhere. Like before, you know,
Michael Jackson looked like a weirdo, but now not so much. No,
it's it's it's that that is not something. It's a it's an accessory that's
totally It's like a watch. It's I mean, is there going to be
a time we're not going to wear it? Like I can't even I can't
even walk out the door now without wearing one. It just freaks me out
if I don't have one on, it's crazy. So let's so, how
did you get started in this insane business that we call the film industry?
So I did question, you know, and and sort of one of those
answers that I feel like when other people said, I roll my eyes.
But it's the truth. I don't remember a time when I didn't want to
do this, you know. I remember being super young and my father had
actually I keep it here. I can turn the camera and show you.
Yeah, it's in my stack and stuff. I have a VHS camera that
was my father's and I taught myself how to use it, and you know,
I would run around the house and I would shoot everything. And I
remember my mom would be like in a robe in the morning. She'd be
like, why are you shooting me? You know, and I just would
like run around like a mad man. And I would I like, I
liked you know, my brother, and I like the w w EE at
the time and matches, and you know, I would molment and create storylines
and and then I taught myself how to edit, and I you know,
it was it was really interesting and and it was a time when you could
teach yourself how to do things. And you know, when I went to
high school, I remember teachers, uh, you know, the one specific
one I remember it was Catcher in the Rye and we're supposed to do a
essay on it. And I asked the teacher her name was, uh,
I think it was missus. It was it was missus Clapper. She uh
she she. I said, you know, I'd like to make a film
about this rather than a paper and she said, you just want to mess
around with your friends and shoot something and I said no. I said,
actually, I think I can do something that speaks even more powerfully than an
essay. And she said no. And I said, well, what if
I do that, plus I write the essay, will you show it in
class? And she said yes to that because it was even more work.
And I remember the feeling I had when people watched that and it worked.
I knew what I wanted to do with my life. Yeah. I had
a similar experience with A. I had a high a camera now my grandpa
gave me and I used to run around. I used to and I did
the same thing. A teacher business law teachers like, hey, can I
shoot a you know this this promo and she was like sure. And the
whole climate it was standing room only because it was I was in the nineties,
like early nineties, so it was still someone shooting something. Was like,
what now, it's like everybody shoots, But yeah, I think it
wasn't. I don't remember other kids running around doing it like in high school
at least, and you know, I was in I was in Hebrew School
shooting stuff and I would have my friends come over and i'd you know,
we'd bude them in costumes and stuff. And I just loved it. I
love that feeling when I knew I had something that was going to make people
laugh. And I was waiting and in the you know, auditorium or in
the classroom, and it was such a high and it was entertaining people and
having something to say and getting your personality out there, and I just thought,
I guess back then, I didn't really realize like, oh, I
want to make it a business and I want to make money doing it.
It was more so just I loved it. And then you know, you
start to learn about life and realize that you can really really make this work,
and you start getting inspired by people. And next thing you know,
here you are now is was there a film that kind of lit the fire?
Was there like that one You're like, oh my god, I have
to do this. You know. My answer is the answer is I remember
seeing early Adam Sandler movies. I remember seeing How To Filmore. Yeah,
I remember seeing those movies and being like, wow, like this is so
fucking cool. Can curse an occasional F bomb is fine, they'll be that'll
be the only one. But that's how I felt at the time, right,
And I was like, this is amazing. And I wasn't so deep
that I knew whether I wanted to be a producer, director, writer,
actor, comedian. Like it was just this is magic. This makes me.
This is so cool. And then I remember the first one that really,
this is an interesting one to note because I was a bit older at
this point, but I remember the one that actually spoke to me a bit
because it was this coming of age story and I thought at such heart was
super bad. I remember seeing super Bad, Yeah, and I remember going,
man, like, this is such. This is I know high school
like this, and I know these stories. So those are a couple of
films that I remember seeing. And there's some other Judd Apatow films and stuff,
but yeah, those are those are sort of when I was like,
man, this is this is so credible. You can make people laugh and
you could tell stories that of heart and are relatable, and I do I
remember, I remember those moments. Was your first directing gigs in music videos,
so my first directing like, I mean, I can tell you the
countless things that I directed that were just horrible and that nobody's ever seen,
because there's there's thousands, right, and I would like and for so long
I was ashamed of just how bad they were. I didn't know what I
was doing. But the first thing I directed that I felt was solid was
in films. I went to UPenn undergrad and I majored in film in English,
but I really was just learning about cinema and cinema studies. You weren't
learning how to be a filmmaker per se. Then I went to NYU Grad
Film School, and that's where I really learned how to be a filmmaker.
And I think that program is so phenomenal. And I made a film there
called The Thirty year Old Briss, which was about an interfaith couple and it
takes the night before We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor and
now back to the show. The guy get circumcised. And that film got
into Trebeca. It was, you know, I think, a ten twelve
minute short film, and that was the first thing I directed that started getting
a little buzz. And you know, then I got into some music videos
and stuff from there, But it was really that film and Tish that was
the first one that I was like, oh, I think this is you
know, this is working a bit now. You know, I've been directing
for twenty odd years as well, and there's always that day when you're on
set that you feel like the entire world is going to come crashing down around
you. You're losing the sun, the camera broke, card isn't working.
Someone deleted the last thirty three hours you shot. You know, something happens.
Is there something that sticks out on in your mind that happened on a
day or on a project, and how did you overcome it? As a
director? Wow, it's like take your pick, right, it's a daily
basis, right, Yeah, I've had everything that you just said, because
I mean I started off as a scrappy filmmaker, like I remember, you
know, you become you don't take anything for granted, you know, I
started obb and I have this company now where every role is fulfilled and I
show up and I'm the director and I'm able to just like do my thing
and leave. But there is a certain you don't soon forget the roles of
everybody on your on your set, if you really did them all. And
I'm so grateful for those brutal times that I try to, you know,
really be the best location sound person that I could be, and the times
that I did hold the boom because you know, I am you can't see
my full body and physique here. I'm not exactly cut out for that,
and that's brutal. Job's brutal, brutal and under standing why you need to
get room tone and understanding that somebody, if your call time is at six
am, needs to go get the truck to get the lights and that's at
three am, and you know you do all of that, and you know
you have to you I remember peaing in Johnstown, Pennsylvania, you know,
before I went to film school, and I was in charge of going and
driving this like broken down van from Pittsburgh to Johnstown, and I thought I
was going to like die because the wheels were going to fall off, and
and those those experiences really make you a much much better leader and director.
And I'm very grateful that I had those experiences, while in the moment,
you don't see it that way. So yeah, there's countless examples of not
really knowing that you should be backing up your drives and it's like a whole
day's work. It's knocked out and that's like, you know, twist the
knife. So I've had all of that, but you make it work and
you keep going, and you know, nothing's ever wor it was supposed to
be. Nothing's ever what was scripted, nothing's ever what you had in your
head, but it ends up being something special. So there's there's so many
different examples. I mean at Johnstown when I haven't talked about that in probably
ten years. That was That was crazy because I was the PA. I
was so excited to shadow the director. I thought I was going to be
able to do that. And they're like, hey, there's a van four
hours away. You need to go get it and then come back. You
know, that was the whole day and I really I remember it broke down
and you know, I was like, I'm going to get fired from this
first pilot ever because I'm not going to get this van here. And you
know, it all works out. Oh dude. I was. I was
interning at a show for Fox at Universal Studios and the producers like, hey,
the producer wants to talk to you. I'm like, oh, shoot,
like the showrunner wants to talk to me, and I go into his
office, like, I like, what you've been doing here? Kid?
I have a special project for you. I'm like, well, what is
it? He's like, I needed to help me move you. That gives
you a lot of time to then go and and find your moment to make
an impression exactly exactly what I pay so much attention to that who's who's who
looks like they're just there to help and be a positive influence and voice.
And you know that that doesn't go unnoticed if you pick the pocket and you
play those situations right. And I think that again, all the all of
those experiences and doing all these different roles and before you you know, you
will be in charge and you will be making those choices. And if you
really know what you're talking about versus if you don't, it becomes really clear.
And people want to work for people that they feel like have done it
before, right, No, No, quite? Yeah, man, A
season A season crew can smell can smell it five minutes in if the directors
knows what they're doing or not like and they will roll you over depending on
where you are in the in the world. La crew, New York Crew,
they even Atlanta crew. They're gonna, oh season guys and guys will
they'll run over you because they just don't have the patience for it. I've
had the pleasure of talking to a lot of you know, really amazing guests
on my show, and one thing I've always wondered. I always ask,
is about this thing that I can't believe some of these Oscar winners and Emmy
winners and the imposter syndrome. And it's a thing that you know, I
feel it, I mean, but writers feel it everything. I was wondering
if you've ever had to deal with that on your own, meaning like,
see, sometimes I've talked talked to some guys who, you know, literally
want oscars and like do you have any yet? Sometimes I'm my last movie
that was one hundred million dollars, I felt like any moment now Security was
going to come in and go, this guy doesn't know what he's doing,
Come on, get him out of here. Is it just an artist thing
or do you do you? Do you ever feel that? I mean,
like an a normal artist would, And how do you deal with it if
you do feel it? I try to spend that positively I try to the
answer is of course, because like another word for that is insecurity, right,
sure, right, And I try to think to myself in those moments,
you know, hard work pays off and you know nobody knows what they're
doing, but we're going to figure it out. And also just first,
I'm so happy I didn't have like early, early, early success, amen.
And the reason for that is it's always with you and it's not like
it took me forever. I feel very lucky that I'm that I am where
I am right now at my age, and it's not lost on me.
But it didn't happen right away from me at all. And you get told
no so frequently it's almost like you just you need to be tough, luon
because every day you have an idea of people like oh yeah cool, like
call me back in a couple of weeks, or like no, just no,
right, and then it's all of a sudden, yeah that sucks.
That's for you. Was that a joke exactly? And you get deflated and
then you get back up. And I think the people are making this business
are like wildly resilient, right, And I think that you you basically go
and get to a point where you remember those no's and people start all of
a sudden saying yes, and then eventually you're actually gonna have to turn stuff
down, which is such a foreign concept when you when you're starting your career,
and I think, in those moments of frustration or you're not sure if
you're if you belong and whatnot, I try to just think back to,
well, I must be doing something right. I'm here right, and those
nose turned into yes is and I try my best not to get riddled with
anxiety and frustration. I say try it because I fail at this sometimes,
right, And I try to just think, you dreamed of this, so
let's just figure it out, just go for it and not go and cave
or fulld you know. I got to say one of the I mentioned before
that Kevin Hart show that we do. It's about to enter season six.
Kevin and I actually had a conversation very early on we started working together,
and I asked him, I said, shouldn't you be on a beach,
like just sipping like a my tie, like what are we doing here?
Because he just like this guy works harder than anybody's the consummant pro and he
did. He said to me, he said, I remember all those nos.
He said, I'm still catching it. Do you think I'd say yes
to a lot? I'm catching up for all the nose because he didn't make
it right away, Oh took him in and I related to it so much,
so I don't know. I try to think more about that. You
know. It doesn't exactly answer your question, but in those moments of like,
you know, do I belong or am I like here? Like how
did this? I just try to go like, yes we are, and
like we're going to figure it out and we don't know everything because nobody does,
and let's just let's grind. You know. One funny story that really
answers your question is I was once I really liked this film and thought I
could make a difference in a later stage. You know. I didn't know
that you could come into a film that's already in the can and edit and
help and make an impact like this early on in my career. And I
was on this call that I never should have been on because I was super
young and like trying to like show that I had great ideas, so,
you know, but I didn't know what I was doing. I'd never done
it. Before, and I remember they asked me a simple question and I
said, I think our connections bad. Hold on, and I googled it.
I didn't know how to. I didn't even know what they were talking
about. Yeah, I googled it fans and I was like, ah,
yeah, you know. And that's just the hustle. Hustle you know.
There you go. Your hat says that right now, you just figure it
out. And that doesn't mean be a BS artist, far from it.
But like hustle, ask questions, ask for help, and just roll with
it. We're all in the same situation. No, no, no question
now. Yeah, I was going to ask you about Kevin Kevin Hart's Cold
Balls, which is I've seen, by the way, I've seen many episodes.
I freaking I'm a huge Kevin Hart fan, Like, who is it?
I mean, who is it? What is it like working with I've
heard the same thing from people that worked with him. We'll be right back
after a word from our sponsor, and now back to the show. Nothing
but a professional, wonderful to work with, just there on time. Does
his job makes people laugh and it's just working hard. What is it like
working with him? And is there something you've taken away from you know,
just working with a star of that calibri. He's a worldwide, huge star
and megabankerball movie star, multi hyphen it CEO, business owner. Yeah,
Kevin and I had many conversations. I mean, obviously, you know I
own and run OBB which is one hat I direct, that's another hat I
produce it. And he's a guy with a lot of dashes if you were
to put try to introduce him right, and what I'll say is he has
it and I might see, but just there is something about he's special.
I mean the way his brain works, the way he reads a script and
just knows it immediately, like he inside out. Something about his brain is
different and he is gifted. What makes Kevin har Kevin Hart is there's that
plus this crazy work ethic, plus this like you know, charm and everything
else. He's hilarious, but he has this intangible gift that I mean it's
someone should study his brain. He's got this crazy mind and memory and gift
and then you pair that with all the other checkboxes of things he has and
you get Kevin Hart. But yeah, I mean, you work with a
guy like that and you're just in the presence of you know, someone who's
really really great. Yeah. And you know, I've had the pleasure of
working with those kind of stars and you just know it when they walk in
the room, there's just that thing that it's intangible. It's there's like,
oh, yeah, that's why they're a huge movie star. I get it
now. They don't have to say a word, you just go up.
Yeah. It goes beyond confidence or the way they carry themselves. It's something,
it's like this aura. And you know, I work with a lot
of really talented people, and I think I have a real knack for getting
great performances from people in scripted and unscripted, in movies and TV and in
what have you? Right, And I think that that skill set, I
can navigate the medium, whether it's by the way, in an audio we
have an audio division, Like, I think I know how to go and
communicate and get those things done. So I have a certain way of going
about it. And you know, with Kevin specifically, anytime that I go
to do my normal course, he just requires so much less or none at
all, you know, and it's just like and I'm always like, man,
I'll see how this goes. And he nails it nails it every time.
So the prep work just does. And that's not to say that he's
some guy that shows up and doesn't do prep. Whatever he's doing is working,
and it's just like go for it and it never disappoints. He never
seems like he doesn't know what he's talking about, and he I'll always be
ready to go with a note and he'll just do it on his own.
It's it's amazing, it's amazing. Now you've you know, obviously you've directed
a lot of music videos. Is there anything that you brought from your music
video experience into documentary because you have made a handful of documentary it's pretty high
profile ones at that. Yeah, I think that I like mixing the world.
Like I think that music videos are so stylistic, you know, you
can stylize them so much, and in a in a very competitive world where
there's so many docks right now, making stylistic choices to make yours rise up
and feel special and different is a great move. Like you know, we
were the opening night headliner film at south By Southwest is here with Dancing with
the Devil and with Demi and the opening sequence of It's a four part piece,
and the opening sequence basically plays like this, like ex our music video,
and it's got all these little, like riddled pieces of the story that
are symbolic, and if you were to play that piece straight through, it
actually tells a story. It's more music video than it is doc, but
it's an opening sequence, right. I think I took that from sort of
my music video brain, and I think that when making docs, specifically music
docs, I like to take parts of the creative and what makes those musicians
so special and put that into the DNA of the filmmaking and some capacity,
and sometimes then that sort of gets meld with more music video type motifs and
it's fun to sort of weave in and out of that. Now, you
know, I've seen some of your docs and you're able to get your subjects
to open up to you and be very, very vulnerable. What tips do
you have word filmmakers listening to be able to do that? I mean,
and you're doing it with some of the biggest stars in the world, which
I'm assuming is a whole other level of comfortable that you have to get in
order to do that. But what suggestions do you have for filmmakers out there,
Well, forget about the cameras. Forget about And what I mean by
that is not forget that they're there. That's very obvious. And what I
mean is, whatever day you plan to shoot, you better be working on
your relationship with that person in a very non transactional way, way earlier on.
And that means forget that you're directing them, forget that you're one day
sitting down from a very genuine place. You need to care about that person
and you need to care about the story you're telling and the vulnerability that you're
referring to is earned, it's not just happenstance. And that's a comfort level
of many many off the record and conversations, and you know, you ultimately
get to a point where you understand what's your north star? You got to
be on the same page with people too, what are you trying to accomplish?
And you know, why should they trust you? And you need to
go and have those hard and difficult conversations depending on what the subject matter is.
But I think whether it's light or whether it's super heavy, you need
to have that relationship and that takes time and energy and that stuff. There's
no instant gratification with that, you know, you're nobody's gonna applaud You'd be
like, you're such a great director, this film is so great, and
you're not even gonna know yourself. You talk about being insecure, You're not
gonna know yourself if you're if you're going to achieve what you're looking to collectively
with that person. But just put in the time and and then you know,
ask those questions in a way that are more conversational. I think you
know I've said this before publicly, but like, there is this moment when
I can tell that the interview has turned into a conversation, and the second
that's happened, that's when you really start to speak in a way that's just
so special. And it all comes down to trust in your relationship, and
you know that just means you got to put the time in, like with
all things. Yeah, it's funny. I've had I've had that experience with
my guests sometimes where I'm talking to them and they forget that we're recording and
they start asking like personal questions and like hey, where do you live?
And I, you know, maybe we could I'm like, dud, dude,
we're recording. Still and they're like, oh, yeah, yeah,
I forgot, I forgot. Did you fall into that? And that's the
magic place? That really is a magic place. Yeah. And you know
there's also you know, someone could argue, well, if you're too close
you know exactly what they want, are you're going to be too subjective in
what you're saying you know? And the answer is no. You know,
you can tell an objective story while understanding someone's heart and what they're after and
why they're doing something. You know, one of the most interesting things was
some of the really you know, large temple movies and projects that I've made
as of late with big stars in the dock space specifically, is you know,
it's really unique for that vulnerability and that window into these people's lives sometimes
the good, the bad, and the ugly. For people to do that
while they're in their prime, I think that's really unique to my work.
Right, You've seen many people later on in life. I got nothing to
lose. Here's what happened back in the day. You know, cool,
that's really cool, that is, But there's something really special about somebody who
has everything to lose, who's in the middle of it. Doesn't need to
be doing that talking about those things because they want to connect with their fans
and relate and you know, specifically to call out you know, Demi Lovado
and Justin Bieber who both did that in their respective projects, you know,
Seasons and Dancing with the Devil, I think are two prime examples of I
am struggling and I am dealing with mental health issues and I'm dealing with Trump.
And that's because I'm a human being, has nothing to do with that.
I'm a celebrity, right, that is so bold, and that has
nothing to do with me. Those are choices that they each made, and
I was there to help facilitate their vision, which was really special. You
know. It's so funny because I think in the era that I grew up,
you know, I mean, I'm a bit older than you, but
I mean I remember when Michael Jackson and Madonna and you know, all those
big stars of the eighties and nineties, they they're put on these pedestals and
they don't they're not shown as human. Yeah, they're they're just they're just
the things almost And they never showed vulnerability ever because I wasn't expected of them.
But in today's generation and today's artists. It's almost expected, like the
Billie Eilishes of the world, and they are expected to be vulnerable and to
be authentic and not packaged because fans want authenticity. People want authenticity. They
are not going to just oh, you're pretty, we'll be right after a
word from our sponsor and now back to the show. Great, there's a
thousand other pretty people behind you. What makes you special? Oh you can
send great, there's a thousand other people who can say really great too,
what makes you special? And and your docks really kind of open up those
doors to you know, two of the largest stars in the world right now.
Yeah, totally. Yeah. I think that that is the different different
you know, differentiator, Like I think that you know, the ability to
go and sure Instagram you get like fifteen second clips into people's lives, but
I always say people have like their Instagram personality, it's not really of course
yeah yeah, yeah, yeah, certain way on there and it's quick and
it's but like, that is access, right. We didn't used to get
that access with a Michael Jackson or some of the artists you named, but
that didn't really you know, obviously exist. But I still think these docks
are that makes it even harder, right because it's like, oh, well
you're getting a window win. So what makes the docks special? You know,
we've already seen them inside the house, so we've already gotten the unfiltered
version. It's like kind of that's still a bit of not people. It's
polished or it's raw for a specific reason, like it's you know, it's
it's raw. But like, what we try to do is really tell a
story. And I don't believe that you need you need an hour and a
half or two hours. Still a story. I don't believe that you need
half an hour. I believe that story and duration and what's happening in content
right now with all of the different options on distributor and you know, varying
agnostic lengths of things is phenomenal. Also think that, you know, just
quick hitters on social is not the way to really get deep and learn about
stuff. So I think that these these music docs are a way to connect.
And you know what, even more so in a time when touring stopped
right the world back that we started talking about like you could not connect with
fans, So what are you doing? What are you up to? And
how can you go and speak to speak to those people that normally get to
go and get maybe see you on the road or see performances or shows that
you're on. So everybody had to like take a deep breath and settle down
and stay in one place a bit. When you were doing Dancing with the
Devil with Demie Lovado, you know, I you know, just at the
beginning of the first episode, you know, it's like six months before the
overdose, so you started that process and the overdose happened in the middle of
it, right So actually, interestingly enough, they were working on a doc.
It was a follow up simply complicated that I was not involved in,
and then when the overdose, unfortunately happened, they stopped entirely, of course,
And when they decided that they were ready to talk about that, I
had recently, you know, months before put out Seasons, and that's what
ultimately I think made DEMI feel like, ooh, you know, we could
potentially tell this together because that tone and that level of authenticity and rawness was
what I think they were looking to do, because I think that film would
have been a different tone and style obviously, So it just called for a
fresh restart, and I came in then, but I was able to inherit
some of that footage obviously from before, and that was one of the filmmaking
challenges, how to go and take some of the older stuff and ultimately shoot
new stuff. And that's how we started. Yeah, it's and it's you're
working with your subject as opposed to a documentarian who's recording a subject but is
disconnected, meaning that they go off, they edit and the subject has no
say on how it looks, where now you're I could only imagine how difficult
that is. You're also now, hey, we're going to show the deepest,
darkest parts that you want to show. We're going to expose all of
it, and that's what this movie needs in order to do it. And
they're involved with you, so that takes another level of bravery on the artists
standpoint totally, and and it is. It's it's unique, and it's nuanced,
and it's political, and you got to ultimately navigate that and it causes
some awkward viewing sessions right where you know, on the one hand, I've
poured my soul into the edit and getting the story out there and trying to
achieve this, but you know, I'm sitting in a room watching some really
dark moments of somebody's life with them. That's that's a very you know unique
you know, you imagine, you know, we all go through ship,
every one of us. But have you watched it on film? You know?
Your you right talking about it? And then oh, can you send
me archival footage from home videos? And can you connect me to your mother
to send me videos of you as a kid? I mean imagine sitting there
and watching that's the experience they go through, and you need to really be
prepared for the reactions that will yield, and understanding again that it's for a
specific purpose, and you do it and you work with the person. You
know, I've never put out on the projects we're discussing here, like those
get seen and discussed before they come out with the artist, and that does
not mean that they're going well. You know, here's a list of things
you can't say, you know that I haven't had that experience because there's always
a conversation at the beginning of let's make sure that I'm the right person for
this, and if I'm the right person, we need to tell a real
story and we can't make a propaganda puff piece like I just not who.
That's not the type of storyteller I am, and I don't think that's the
what your you know, fans deserve, or ultimately what you want to do.
And we've always had those difficult or just I shouldn't even say those conversations
aren' difficult. It's just very straightforward conversations, and as such, I think
it's resulted in these really special projects. Now. I mean, you've again
worked with Demian and Justin and you know, two of the biggest stars in
the world at the moment, you know, being in the orbit of those
kind of stars, especially close to those orbits. I've had small moments of
those as well, where you're just in the orbit and just like there's satellites
around, there's planets running around, and they are the center of the universe.
What is it like, day in, day out being with some of
the biggest stars in the world and seeing what they go through because you're not
just a satellite, you're like next too, and you're capturing it. So
that must be a very different experience. You must have a sympathy for them
that most might not because you see what they go through and things are on
camera and off so what is it like just as a human being next to
another human going through that experience? Great question and the answer. I've tried
so hard to in my work explain what that experience is like, and you
know, being hard on myself, I've never effectively done that because nothing can
do with justice besides seeing it firsthand. And I've tried. I've tried to
do the chaotic cuts of paparazzi and things happening, and it's like now to
really see the forethought that goes into just moving, just getting up and going
to do something because of how famous they are, that is like a second
to second reality now. I've also been very careful to be mindful of nobody
wants to hear the woe is me. I'm a celebrity in my life,
you know, I can't move like there's a lot of perks, right,
So it's tough, But that doesn't change the reality that, like it's hard,
there are parts that are really hard, and human nature is not designed
for fame and celebrity. We're not designed to be told how great we are
twenty four to seven. We're not designed to not be able to go outside
of question. Question, question, uncomfortable question, uncomfortable question. So,
yeah, it does make you sympathetic or I should just say, really understanding
of all sides of it. Nothing simple, and it makes you just sort
of get it all. Also, it made me really understand that just just
because you read something does not mean it's true at all. Like you know,
you know it, there's there's there's people can say anything about anybody,
and when you're really famous, people just say stuff. And then you know
but that that words matter, words have power. News you know outlets,
you would think that, oh, well, you know it's there. They're
a news outlet. It's got to be real, Like, no, it's
it doesn't. I've just seen a lot of stuff where I've been with people
and then you know that there's an article saying there was somewhere else. I'm
like, wait a se well, you know, and that you start like
realizing just that's that's a daily occurrence. And I think that while stars who
have been in the limelight for a long time probably get a bit immune to
it, it's still annoying. It's still frustrating, and it can cause you
to act out a character at times. And it's a really interesting peak behind
the curtain as to what those people go through, and you know, many
of whom really do a pretty damn good job. And sure they slip here
and there, but for the most part, I've been really impressed and I
have no idea how I would handle that sort of a level of celebrity.
And that's why it's so interesting. That's why I asked you the questions,
because you get the kind of role play that almost you know, cause play
that if you will, because you're right next to them. It's not you
doing it. You could walk away at any second and no one's really going
to stop you in the street. For the most part, maybe in LA,
but generally speaking, it is. It is. It's fascinating to me,
and so many people want to be rich and famous. We'll be right
back after a word from our sponsor, and now back to the show.
But they don't understand that there is a cost man, there is a cost
and look like you said, no, woe is me? They looked for
it. I mean, funny story, I was on the set. I
was doing music videos in LA fifteen years ago something like that, and I
was invited to an Usher music video and there was like, there's this young
kid who's going to be in it and I'm like, who's this young kid.
He's like, oh, some kid named Justin Bieber, and I had
he was nobody. Justin was nobody. He was fifteen. He's tripping over
cables, he's just trying to dance and there I'm just like, oh cool.
I get to see Usher six months later, baby baby hits. I
was just like, what the hell? And so I have a I saw
Justin when he was a kid, like he was literally just fifteen, he
was just but he was so even at that moment when I saw him and
I was on set with him, you could just see it. You're like,
there's something there. I don't know what it is. And this is
not the song because I saw the music, I'm like, no, this
is not the one, but it was. It was really interesting and people
do ask for this, but they have to be really careful what Yeah.
I think also question is you don't know what you're asking for it till you
get it, and you got so it's like this is it? So yeah,
I think again, it's just it's fascinating. Yeah, And like with
all things again, there's pros and cons. Yeah, exactly, like you
know, you know bad Day who knows who knows who it is. It
is a pros and cons. Now tell me about your new film with Justin
Our World. Yeah, came out in October, really exciting, It was
fun. It was you know, you do a heavy doc series like Seasons
and then you pivot and you make a really fun film that's you know,
obviously COVID is like looming over this thing, and people were going through really
a rough time and unfortunately, of course people were dying from COVID and everybody
was in a weird spot with work and figuring out how to provide and that's
a character in this piece. But once we get to the stage, it's
a celebration of like his music, and it's a nostalgic walk, you know,
down memory lane from baby to now and there's it's really verite and gritty,
and I think it was really cool how Justin was like a DP and
shot himself in it and Haley, and you know that was really because of
safety protocols. I couldn't be there all the time good in a weak style.
And then obviously we juxtaposing that with thirty two cameras set up with drones
and all the flashiness. The Night of the show on the top of the
Beverly Hilton was pretty unique, and I think it captured the spirit of that
moment in time and it was really it was really awesome. I enjoyed making
a concert doc, you know, And that's really what it was. It
was a concert heavy dock and it's it was. It was a blast,
and I think people really enjoyed it. And how I mean, how was
it shooting during the COVID protocol? Man, Like, I mean, it's
on such a big it was a pretty big production. I mean, thirty
two cameras. It's no joke, It's no I'm like, my, my,
my, my butt just puckered. When you said thirty two cameras.
I'm like, oh Jesus, how did I mean? I'm assuming at some
point you're just like, hopefully I'll get some footage off of those those sets
of cameras because you're not seeing everything at all times. Right. Well,
it was just we were shooting the hell out of it, right, I
mean, we had drones in the sky, we had cameras on balconies,
we had long lenses from certain is. Uh, you know, we we
were doubling the livestream cameras and then we had the ability to convert it to
four K, which is obviously what ended up on the Amazon film, and
we then had a bunch of you know, running gun shooters getting cool you
know, dynamic shots and the and whatnot. But it was really crazy shooting
in COVID because we had our bubble and there was daily testing and if somebody
went down, the whole show is at risk obviously, so you had to
just be super, super careful and everything was incredibly thought through and we you
know, luckily pulled it off. But that what made the loom of COVID
and everything going on and pulling off the show a very interesting storyline also,
like we had to live that making it. It was not just manufactured drama.
It was like, all right, everybody's negative, okay, good good,
you know, and Nick to Moro goes down with COVID as his creative
director, and then Justin had to fully step up and lead the team,
which you know, was a good story point because part of this was about
Justin really coming into his own and really leading every part of his life for
the first time. Really. I mean, he's he's a grown man,
you know, and we all think, you know, we remember what you
hear Justin and you're like, well, baby, and he's grown out.
He's a grown ass man with a family. He's he's a grown man with
a wife and and and you know, leading many of the same people he's
been with. He's incredibly loyal, which is really cool. You know.
You go and one of the storylines that I thought was important to hit home
and he thought as well, was like, you know, he's been with
the same people for all those years. It's very rare to see in any
field, but in music especially, So it's it's a fun one. It's
a really fun watch and you know, it's it's it's just enjoyable to go
and watch some good music and you know, you'll realize how many Justin Bieber.
But if you're a fan, of course you know, but even if
not, you'll be like, man, he's one talented person. There's a
lot of songs that you don't even sometimes I don't even realize is Justin And
you're like, oh, he's a Justin Baber song. Oh yeah, like
he's or he guest starred on this, or get you know, you know,
guests popped on that, and it's just he's it's hard to believe he's
been around for fifteen odd years at this point in the game and still and
still going and still being relative, you know, relative because relevant to excuse
me, because a lot of those boy bands, as we all know from
the nineties in the early two thousands, there, they're not relevant. He
just put out a number one album. He's about to go on like a
sold out arena tour. So pretty impressive. He's doing. He's doing all
right, He's doing okay, He's okay, He's okay. Now, what's
next for you? Man? Working on another big documentary right now that I
have not announced yet, but we are into it and seven months into it
hopefully will come out end of this year beginning of next. I'm producing another
big doc that have not announced yet that sorry, this just went off,
that we are in pre pro on, which is really exciting. And then
we have an animated music show that's really exciting that's with the network that we
haven't announced yet. So there's there's there's a bunch of stuff. There's a
there's there's some scripted TV shows, and then there's a couple of these doc
films. We're working on a whole bunch of stuff. And then really exciting
for us, we're building out our first studio here in La so we have,
yeah, a big production facility where we're building out stuff so we'll be
able to bring a lot of our productions in house. But it's been great.
I mean, we are going to be forty eight people here at OBB
by the end of year, which is just a number. Yeah, it's
been exciting time. But you know, we have this audio business that does
podcasts and audio projects. You know, we have our film group, we
have TV. There's a lot of stuff going on and at the heart of
it all is stories and we're very lucky that we're in a time when there
are there's such a need everybody needs content right now, and we're making stuff
and it's a it's a fun time to play because dollars are not just coming
from financiers or distributors, coming from brands coming from all over the place.
So we're working in a number of different areas with a number of different partners
and having a blast. Yeah, Kevin Hart's cole Balls is by Old Spice.
That's that's exactly right, And yeah, we have seen that. There's
another one. We got season six of that coming up that will be shooting,
which is just I no matter what size project or what I'm doing or
what's going on, I find out how to carve out time to direct that
show. It's just so fun. I can imagine I have to like do
these wonky schedules for like, you know, whatever big thing I'm working on,
because I'm like I want to. That's such an example of the new
TV modern win. You know. It's it's a twelve to fifteen minute like
internet show that just blew up and gets millions of viewers with a brand sponsor,
and that works right with a move with an A plus bankable movie starts.
That's an example of just how our landscape has changed, right and being
you know, they shouldn't call it film school anymore. It's content school,
you know, and and and people should want to be content makers, not
filmmakers like and again, nothing wrong. I'm a film I love film,
but I always think, you know, if some of these iconic filmmakers from
the past were starting today, they'd be using all of these different technologies and
distribute Spielberg Yeah, Spielberg a guy, yeah. Tell stories at different lines.
Tell the best one minute story, Tell the best five minute story.
And that's what we're doing. We're doing stuff on all these different mediums and
just having a lot of fun. Now I'm going to ask a your questions,
to ask all my guests. What advice would you give a filmmaker trying
to break into the business today? Make it actually make it, don't talk
about it, make it, go outside and shoot it, and if it's
not great, make it a little bit better next time. But don't just
develop forever. Don't just put it on paper, Go and make it.
You can actually make stuff, now, do it yourself. What is the
lesson that took you the longest to learn, whether in the film industry or
in life. We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor, and
now back to the show. Ninety per is good enough? You know,
don't don't like us, otherwise you'll be just paralyzed and you'll never put stuff
out. You know, delegation right, you know, like don't you don't
need you can't do everything. If you're really going to go and have influence
and make a lot of stuff at once, you got to build a great
team. But you know, I think it's it's it's letting go and and
putting stuff out to the world and and and not caving into that fear that
starts. It's not there yet, It's not there yet. You know you
gotta you gotta release it eventually. And last question, three of your favorite
films of all time? I think I gave you three already, Which which
are Happy Gilmore, Billy Madison, super Bad, I can Love, I
Love We Yeah, we covered it, we started it. I I I
mean, I love Charlie Chaplin movies. I love Chaplain films watch oh yeah,
oh yeah, even film yeah, even the film like Limelight. I
know that gets like I like, I really love Chaplain. I And you
know he made short films and silent films and to talkies, so I'll add
Chaplain into them. Oh. Can you imagine if Chaplin was around today,
like what he would be doing? Oh god, different kind of thing,
a lot of having a lot of fun. I always like imagine Kubrick with
today's technology. Oh my god, talk about shooting. You'd shoot forever before
you had the limitations of film. Can you imagine you just shoot and shoot?
Michael Man, it's been a pleasure talking to you, brother. Thank
you again so much for being on the show Man and a continued success.
Thank you for having me fun. I want to thank Michael so much for
coming on the show and dropping his knowledge bombs on the Trap today. Thank
you so much, Michael. If you want to get links to anything we
spoke about in this episode, head over to the show notes at Bulletproof Screenwriting
dot TV forward slash three fifty five. Thank you so much for listening to
guys as always, keep on writing no matter what. I'll talk to you
soon. Thanks for listening to the Bulletproof Screenwriting podcast at Bulletproof screen right in
dot t v. Mm hmm