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Hello, and welcome to the show. Hi. Martin willis your host.

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And you know, it's funny when
I a lot of times I'll mention our

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guests, you know, coming up
the following week. Happens a lot and

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it ends up being a different guest, so you never really know who you're

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going to have. We have the
great Kevin Randall on tonight. I'm really

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excited about that. Always fun talking
with him. He's a no nonsense type

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of guy. And so next week
we're supposed to have Les lu Chanon and

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someone from the new Skinwalker History Channel
series. I'm not sure. I don't

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have that information and front of me
right now. So if you want to

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know who we're having as a guest
for sure, well unless something happens the

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day off, all you have to
do is go over to podcast ufo dot

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com and you will see their right
at the top right hand side, there

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is a an email mailing list.
All you have to do is drop your

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email on that and it's called a
weekly newsletter and click sign up and then

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you will get a link to activate
in your mailbox. So that's all you

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have to do if you want to
find out what's going on, and also

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we put our blogs in there as
well, and this week's blog by Charles

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Lear, who writes for us every
week does a great job as UFOs and

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the predicted death of Frank Edwards interesting
kind of mystery situation about an interesting case,

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and we're going to be talking about
a lot of interesting case tonight.

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I do want to say I hope
everyone out there is all my good listeners

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are are healthy and staying safe,
and we are going to be talking about

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UFOs and a great book, the
Best of Project Blue Book. Now,

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Kevin, I don't have it in
front of me, but I'm gonna say

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I think, yes, I do
have an in front of me. Kevin

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has published a hunt. He has
written one hundred and twenty five books.

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Can you believe that? I mean, that's just amazing. And twenty seven

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of UFO books were published. As
far as I know, I think I

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have that right. And so Kevin, welcome to the show. Well,

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thank you, good to be here. And and you're you know you've done

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this. I think this is the
second time you have done this. Like

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Kevin, my guest is not going
to work out with my guests, can

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you help me? And you've been
very gracious so I don't want you to

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only come on like that, but
I think this is the second time you've

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done that for me. I think
it is. Yes, yeah, and

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I just want to let you go. Somebody's got to rescue you. Yeah,

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that's right. Um. Anyway,
I've always appreciated your work, and

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I've said this before. Um,
you're a blog that you have, Um,

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you really look into things. And
sometimes if I'm wondering about a case

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I'm not really certain about it,
I'll go on your blog and sure enough,

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there it is you've written about.
Have you ever counted how many things

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you've written about on that blog?
There's over a thousand postings. A thousand

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postings. So if you want to
get what I think is the real good

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source of what's going on, Kevin, how is what is the blog?

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It's Kevin Randall um dot blogspot dot
com. Right, what I'm what I'm

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doing my radio show. I always
say www. Kevin Randall dot blogspot dot

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com. Hey, you got it
down. But I think if you just

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tape type my name in there,
the first thing that comes in your search

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engine, but the first thing that
comes up is the blog. Yeah,

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yeah, and the second and this
I can't believe. The second thing that

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comes up is Kevin Randall's net worth. I'm on one of those celebrity pages

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as a net worth, and I
can tell you from my own experience because

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my net worth, according to Mills
Pages, is somewhere between one hundred thousand

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and one hundred and thirty four million
dollars. They keep changing it daily.

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It's completely and totally inaccurate. I
will confess that it is between one hundred

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thousand and one hundred and thirty four
million. Well, that's always wishing thirty

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four million. Yeah, although we
don't really know these days right now.

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That could be tricky, but anyway, yeah, it Isn't there a celebrity

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name? Kevin Randall said, they're
mixing you up with that, there's something

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like that. Is there a celebrity? No, no, no, it's

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it's me. Because one of the
pictures up there is of me at the

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podium at the Moufon conference. I
got information that relates directly to me,

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so it is it is me that's
there. Yeah. Yeah, I just

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happened to catch just the first opening
part of one of your shows that you

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do and with Kurt Collins. I
really I've always liked Kurt Collins, and

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he's going to be on the show, I think in another couple of months.

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Here, well months, here are
you hearing feedback? Hearing feedback?

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I have some feedback coming through here
anyway, so it stopped. I heard

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you say right off the bat that
you watched Project blue Book on the History

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Channel, and you said, you
don't have any reason why they call it

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that name. Well, the first
season they were dealing with blue Book stuff,

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and they were dealing with blue Book
cases. Yeah, but the last

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episode was there, well one more
episode they were Skinwalker Ranch, which is

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completely and totally bogus, and I
think it was a set up the series

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that's coming up. And then the
last episode they had a Russian airplane crash

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in Candidate and they were on the
scene to defuse an atomic bomb. And

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it has nothing to do with Project
blue Book. Their office, they're they're

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doing a classified project in nineteen fifty
two, when this program is allegedly set,

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they're dealing with classified materials. It's
an office where they deal with classified

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Yet there's big windows in the doors. There's windows all over the place.

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They're not taped up, they're not
closed, they're stuff all over the walls

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and their secretary, their clerk,
clerk typist. She's like an airman basic.

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She has no stripes whatsoever. I
cannot believe you've got a classified project

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and you've got someone who has been
in the Air Force probably about a year.

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They would have had a secretary with
a little bit more rank. She

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would have she would have had to
have a clearance, she would have had

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to have a clear It's not all
enlisted personnel have clearances, so you know,

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they're all kinds of things like that. They just kind of annoyed me.

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Last the last year they did okay, but this year it's just gone

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completely off the rails. Now.
When I spoke to Alan Heineck's son,

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Um God missing his yeau, Paul, Paul said that, um, you

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know, they review basically the whole
season with him, and he did have

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he did have an objection. And
but he said he had an objection had

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something to do with his mother or
no, it had something. No,

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that was the first season. The
second season had something to do with something

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that Jay Allan Heineck supposedly was going
to say. And he said, no,

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you can't cross that line. You
got to change that. And but

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but I guess he. You know, he's one of the consultants of the

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of the series. I interviewed him
on my program as well, and at

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the same impression that he was delighted
with the series, that there were really

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any big objections to it, even
though a lot of it is complete and

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total fantasy, you know, jail
and flying in airplanes and they're running around

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all over the country with the chief
of Project Blue Book whose name and this

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program is Quinn and getting in fist
fights and all kinds of nonsense. I

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just have no I just cannot see
Jail and Heinek getting into a fist fight

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with anybody. Yeah, yeah,
you do you think that it's it kind

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of hurts the whole situation, you
know of people that are just starting to

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um, you know, think that
this, you know, look into this

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topic and think that you know,
what they're watching is all based on true

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true stories. And I mean I
would have said last year, it really

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doesn't hurt all that much because they
do deal with the cases and then there's

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little vignettes at the end that gives
you kind of the real information about the

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case. Yeah, when they did
m Kelly Hopkins Villion with a farmhouse was

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invaded by the alien creatures. They
kind of dropped the ball on that one

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because if you, well, if
you've studied the case, you know that

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although the family was actually shooting at
the aliens and knocking them down, they

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get up and run off. But
when they showed it on the TV show,

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they had bullet holes all throughout the
house. These people weren't that stupid.

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They weren't shooting holes in their own
house, shooting out the windows dummies,

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you know. And they had but
they had a lynch mob, the

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the farmers with their torches and their
pitchforks storming the nineteen fifty two sighting with

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Catherine May and those people. The
and the name I cannot believe the name

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actually escapes me at the moment September
of nineteen fifty two, September twelfth,

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the West Virginia Case. Yeah,
well, you know, I think I

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think the show is you know,
it's made for entertainment, but um,

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it's also uh you know, I
think it's it's interesting. I haven't really

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watched a lot of it this year. I think I watched the first four

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or five episodes, But I really, I really do I did you.

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I believe you did interview David O'Leary. No, okay, I I interviewed

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Alturo Um. He was the vice
senior vice president. I had him on

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my show and we talked about the
program and things like that. He since

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moved on to a bigger and better
job. Interestingly, he did send me

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a picture when m Robert Friend turned
a hundred. Robert Friend had been one

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of the um chiefs of Project Bluebook
at the end of nine fifty nineteen sixteen,

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and he was he was in charge
of Project Bluebook, but he was

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also a Tuskegee airman. I did
not know that until way too late.

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I would have loved to talk to
him about that aspect of his career.

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But the point is Artura had sent
me a picture of him and I think

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the high Necks and Robert's friend um, which was kind of an interesting thing.

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I put the picture up on my
blog so people can see it.

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But you know, we're doing entertainment, and I just don't understand Hollywood in

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that respect. Take the customer massacre, they always have to jazz it up

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with something. I'm thinking, you've
got an amazing story here, you don't

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need to embellish it with Hollywood nonsense. The same thing with the first movie

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on Midway that they did in the
nineteen seventies. They had that story that

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Charlton Heston's son was running around with
a Japanese woman who had been who was

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involved in the interments. Her family
had been interred when they rounded up the

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Japanese Japanese Americans, and they shouldn't
have done it, and they got all

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into that nonsensical aspect of it,
which is just not germane to the story

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of Midway. And one of the
important things that they really kind of glossed

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over was the fact that we were
reading the Japanese codes, that we had

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broken the codes, and the Japanese
were of the mindset that a code created

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by the Japanese would be near perfect, and we occidentals would be unable to

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crack this code. And of course
they had been able to do it,

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and that was how we knew that
they were going to attack Midway and had

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our forces there to repel that assault. And that, to me isn't fascinating

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part of the story as well.
But they interject this love story there for

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no reason other than, I guess, to condemn the United States for rounding

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the Japanese Japanese Americans, I should
say up after the attack on Pearl Harbor.

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You can understand the mindset, you
can understand what they were thinking.

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It was completely wrong. And what's
always glossed over is German Americans and Italian

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Americans were also put in internment camps, not in the numbers of the Japanese,

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but they also were interred, and
that's never brought up either. So

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the real point is you've got something
that's I think fascinating in and of itself,

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and they've always got to do something
to jazz it up and take it

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away from the real story. And
when they say it's based on real facts

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in today's world, they've gone completely
and totally off the rails. And I

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don't know what other than there was
a Project Bluebook and Jalen Heinich was a

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real guy. I'm not sure what
they're doing. Well, you know,

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I you know, it's not really
much to argue with UM as far as

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that goes, because you know,
you're not the only one that has said

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almost exactly the same thing. UM, Like, there is already so much

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to it. Why why does it
have to be embellished? I've had that

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exact phrase, uh, you know, quoted on this show before. And

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I I understand kind of both sides
of this. I understand you have to

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try to make something really you know, entertaining to you know, as far

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as the characters and and what happens
to you know, grab the people and

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get them to keep coming back every
week to see, you know, what's

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next. But um, you know, I get both sides of it,

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really, you know, well,
I would say this. You got movies

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today that have no plot, no
character development. All they're doing is high

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speed chases and explosions. Let's drive
over there and blow something out. I'm

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saying, you write, if you're
a good writer and a good storyteller,

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this should be fascinating without the embellishments. I've always said that, I think

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history should be the most fascinating course
that's taught in schools because you're dealing with

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real people and real events that you
see in the movies. And there's books,

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thousands and thousands of books written about
it. And yet they managed to

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suck the life out of history.
When when was the Declaration of Independence signed?

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Well on July fourth, seventeen seventy
six, Well not really, And

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some of the names weren't dependent until
what months later, But we don't get

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that, and we don't get what
what would cause this sort of thing where

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we're just busy learning people in dates. We're not learning anything about the persons

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or the people involved in that sort
of thing. So I don't think you

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need the embellishment. But it's gotten
into lazy storytelling. Well what interests people,

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Well, we want to bring in
the teenage boys, and they like

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to see stuff blow up. If
you remember, remember that one show well

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blowed up real good? Yeah that
was Stripes, I think, right,

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Yeah, maybe I was thinking of
the Great White North on SETV. But

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but if you remember MythBusters, they
were always blowing stuff up. They didn't

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get it up it. Well,
let's add let's add two tons of dynamite

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and see if it'll blow up.
Now. Oh I see, uh,

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I see. We have Dave Altman
um in the chat room and he just

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wrote um and he has a UM. Let's see, he's an event a

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publicist for one of the people in
Project blue Book. That's his uh what

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he does, and it says it
allows regular people to get interested in the

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subject. It's like the New X
Files, you know, that's that's kind

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of his his take on why uh
Project Blue Book does what it does.

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I have I have no objection to
that. What I'm saying simply is that

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you don't need to and bellish it
with a lot of Hollywood nonsense, you

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know, to me, it just
smacks of poor writing. I mean,

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I spotted a flaw in the program
that I thought nobody else in the world

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would have spotted. I mean,
we're dealing with nineteen fifty two and one

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of the generals, Neil mcdunnah,
one of my favorite actors, is Wiring

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an Air Force Commendation medal and his
ribbons that wasn't created until nineteen fifty eight.

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Yeah, Erico terrible. I'm terrible
like that myself. I look at

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sets, and I'm always looking at
sets and say, hmmm, nineteen when

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is that supposed to take place in
nineteen sixty two? Well, you know

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that's a you know that didn't come
out until nineteen sixty nine, or you

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know, the Lava Land or whatever
it is. And I haven't figured out

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why they've got two four star generals
running around in this program as sort of

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sort of overseeing the whole thing.
We got two four star generals running around.

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I would maybe buy one brigadier general, but you know two four star

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generals who are deeply involved. I
don't think so. And you can tell

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how important Project blue Book became in
fifty two. It was very important,

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It's no doubt about it. And
things evolved after the roberts A panel nineteen

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fifty two over nineteen fifty three,
and then you started bringing in people to

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lead it who are anti alien,
anti UFO type people. And then and

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it was sort of a dead end
job. Well, what are you going

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to do with this guy? Well, he's got a couple more years on

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his career. He's not going anywhere
giving Project blue Book. And it's kind

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of a dead end career for an
Air Force officer to be put in charge

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of Project blue Book. You know, it's like you'll be in charge of

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the supply depot in Bakersfield, California, accounting mess mess trays or forks or

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something. I mean, it was
kind of a dead end job, and

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you knew if you were that.
I always felt that way that Hector Quintinella,

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who was the last chief of Project
blue Book. I mean he came

237
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there as a captain and he just
stayed forever, and he eventually retired as

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lieutenant colonel, so he got his
promotions on time. But I think he

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was bitter and reading his book and
some of the things he said, I

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think he was just bitter about being
stuck in that dead end job and he

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knew what they were doing to him. The guy was a trained physicist,

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you know, but his name was
Hector Quintinella, and he was Mexican American,

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and so they just sort of pushed
him to the side, and that

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was what they did with him,
and I was I felt kind of bad

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for him because of that. Wow. Yeah. Now in this book,

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and again the title is at the
best of Project blue Book, were you

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00:19:47,799 --> 00:19:51,920
actually did you actually review the files
themselves? Because I know a lot of

248
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them are available. I have had
since the mid nineteen nineties a complete set

249
00:19:57,640 --> 00:20:03,440
of the Project Blue Book files on
microfilm. Wow, and then of course

250
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now a lot of I now have
a complete set. Well, it's not

251
00:20:04,720 --> 00:20:08,319
I don't think it's commplete, but
the vest majority at the site of the

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block Project bluebooks on a one terrified
hard drive. I can carry Project Bluebook

253
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around in my pocket, which always
stuns me. But yes, I had

254
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complete access to the Project Bluebook files, and so I would compare what was

255
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on what I had digitally with what
was originally in microfilm. What happened was

256
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back in nineteen seventy six when I
was going to the University of Iowa.

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I actually was before that. I
was an Air Force ROTC. And the

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newsletter came out and said that the
Project Bluebook files are now available for scrutiny

259
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at they've been to be classified.
They're available for scrutiny at Maxwell Air Force

260
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Base. And I went to college
and what I called my Saga scholarship.

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Saga was a men's magazine from the
nineteen fifties and sixties. You know,

262
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it wasn't like Playboy. It was
just featured stories that were interest to men,

263
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and they would always run a UFO
article once a month, and then

264
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then they developed the Sagau Fall Report, and it was all UFOs. And

265
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I would periodically call the editor.
Sometimes he'd call me back and sometimes he

266
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wouldn't. Well, I discovered that
I that the Project Bluebook files were AVAY

267
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level. So I called the editor
and they said, well, can we

268
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take a mess each as they always
did, and I said yes, tell

269
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them I can get the Project Bluebook
files, and the editor didn't call me.

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The managing at her called instead,
and he starts telling me what to

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look for. I said, well, I guess we got an assignment,

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don't we. And so a friend
of mine, Bob Cornette, and I

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went down to the project, went
down to National Air Force Space and podded

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through the files. At that time, this was before they were all redacted,

275
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and the first thing we did was
go to the index and we wrote

276
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down the names of everybody who was
The index had the date of the signing,

277
00:21:45,200 --> 00:21:51,839
the witnesses, the location, and
the conclusion that was drawn out.

278
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So we went through the all undidentified. So we wrote down all of that

279
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with the names so we could put
the names back in. They really didn't

280
00:21:57,039 --> 00:22:00,759
do a good job of redacting the
names. The point being as yes,

281
00:22:00,119 --> 00:22:04,200
I had access to the Project Bluebook
files and I've been playing with them since

282
00:22:04,240 --> 00:22:10,279
the mid nineteen seventies. And if
I opened a door in my cabinets back

283
00:22:10,319 --> 00:22:12,000
there, I could show you the
microfilm There was I think it's ninety six

284
00:22:12,079 --> 00:22:17,599
rolls of microfilm, and you could
purchase them one at a time, and

285
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I would purchase them as I needed. So I ended up with in a

286
00:22:18,839 --> 00:22:22,279
complete set. So yes, I
went through the Project Bluebook files. So

287
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what I did was I pulled up
the project card that you would see on

288
00:22:27,079 --> 00:22:33,039
the first thing you would see in
the file, and that is at the

289
00:22:33,079 --> 00:22:37,119
top of the page with that sighting
on it, so you can read what

290
00:22:37,200 --> 00:22:41,640
the Air Force said on the project
card, and then I detailed the sighting

291
00:22:41,640 --> 00:22:45,279
as the Air Force investigated it.
But I had access to information the Air

292
00:22:45,279 --> 00:22:51,920
Force didn't have, which simply is
meaning that you know if once Project Bluebook

293
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closed, they didn't update the files
or do anything. And I was able

294
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to do that. I was able
to talk to witnesses who could give me

295
00:23:00,279 --> 00:23:03,559
more information or I could access additional
information that the Air Force didn't have access

296
00:23:03,559 --> 00:23:07,039
to at the time. So I
brought all of that into play as well.

297
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What happened afterwards, What did what
happened to the witnesses? I talked

298
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to witnesses that were involved in some
of this, for example, the Washington

299
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National sightings from nineteen fifty two,
what's these sightings on radar over Washington National

300
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Airport in two secretive Saturday nights in
July, and I was able to talk

301
00:23:33,079 --> 00:23:38,519
to al Chop and Dewey fourn A, who were in the radar room on

302
00:23:38,559 --> 00:23:42,960
the second night. So I talked
to I talked to them in the nineteen

303
00:23:44,039 --> 00:23:47,160
nineties, but you know, I
asked the questions I wanted to ask and

304
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got the information. So I was
able to plug that information into the book.

305
00:23:49,720 --> 00:23:52,880
Stuff that didn't make it in the
Project Bluebook files. That you know,

306
00:23:52,920 --> 00:23:59,640
their their memories and their reaction to
what isn't in the Project Bluebook files.

307
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And I was able to gather that
information or use that information as I

308
00:24:03,240 --> 00:24:07,640
gathered it, you know, some
twenty years ago. So that was what

309
00:24:07,680 --> 00:24:12,759
the idea was. Here is some
of these great stories. Here is Here

310
00:24:12,759 --> 00:24:17,079
are the some of the interviews I
conducted with people long after the events.

311
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Here are some photographs Leveland Texas.
For example, I knew where the various

312
00:24:22,559 --> 00:24:26,200
sites were that the people saw the
UFO that landed in level Land, Texas.

313
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So I was able to go to
those sites. And here's a photograph

314
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of what the site looks like at
least today. So you get an idea

315
00:24:32,319 --> 00:24:36,400
of how desolate it really was out
there. I mean, one of the

316
00:24:36,440 --> 00:24:40,920
things were going on, but Don
Burns and for example, a guy living

317
00:24:40,960 --> 00:24:45,519
in Roswell New Mexico, by coincidence, had studied the leveland case. He

318
00:24:45,720 --> 00:24:52,279
was able to interview the daughter and
the widow of the sheriff from level Land,

319
00:24:52,920 --> 00:24:56,359
and he learned that the sheriff had
been told not to talk about the

320
00:24:56,400 --> 00:25:00,720
sighting and he wouldn't do it.
But it appears that the got a lot

321
00:25:00,759 --> 00:25:04,279
closer to the UFO when he went
out looking for it, and then had

322
00:25:04,279 --> 00:25:07,640
been in the Project Bluebook files that
suggests he was nine hundred yards away or

323
00:25:07,680 --> 00:25:11,559
something like that. Talking to them, the family said, yeah, he

324
00:25:11,599 --> 00:25:15,920
got a lot closer, And I
was able to find a newspaper article by

325
00:25:15,960 --> 00:25:22,880
coincidence from the time frame that wasn't
in the Project Bluebook files that said where

326
00:25:22,920 --> 00:25:26,440
he was quoted to saying he got
within two hundred yards of it, he

327
00:25:26,480 --> 00:25:29,920
was much much closer, and so
that confirmed what the family said. So

328
00:25:29,960 --> 00:25:37,279
we've got a contemporary quote from a
newspaper that confirmed what the family was saying,

329
00:25:37,839 --> 00:25:40,839
you know, fifty years later or
forty five years later or whatever it

330
00:25:40,880 --> 00:25:42,799
was when Don talked to them.
But I was able to bring all of

331
00:25:42,799 --> 00:25:47,400
that information to play in the book
as well. So it's not just what

332
00:25:47,440 --> 00:25:51,720
the Air Force had to say.
It's additional information that I was able to

333
00:25:51,759 --> 00:25:55,400
gather along after Project blue Book closed
and and appended to that, and he

334
00:25:55,440 --> 00:25:59,680
says, well, here's where we
go today and here's what we about it

335
00:25:59,759 --> 00:26:03,920
today. I like that that approach
is really really great. We're a little

336
00:26:03,920 --> 00:26:07,200
past our break. We got to
go into break, so hang in everyone,

337
00:26:07,240 --> 00:26:11,799
we'll be right back right after these
messages. All right, welcome back

338
00:26:11,839 --> 00:26:17,519
to the show. My guest tonight
is Kevin Randall, and we were talking

339
00:26:17,519 --> 00:26:22,480
about the level of Texas case just
before we went on break. However,

340
00:26:22,839 --> 00:26:25,720
Kevin, I wanted to tell you
guess who's in the chat room. We

341
00:26:25,839 --> 00:26:29,000
have Shane Ryan in the chat room. He just said, Hi, he

342
00:26:29,039 --> 00:26:33,920
remembers having dinner with you in Toronto. Shane Ryan from Australia. Yeah,

343
00:26:33,000 --> 00:26:37,680
Australia, Australia. Yeah. The
Westall case we've had. We had Shane

344
00:26:37,720 --> 00:26:41,400
on I don't know, maybe a
month or two ago. That was back

345
00:26:41,440 --> 00:26:45,920
when they were having the fires down
there and and but no, it's good

346
00:26:45,960 --> 00:26:51,319
to see him. He's putting up
all kinds of information on the chat room

347
00:26:51,359 --> 00:26:57,440
for everyone, which is great.
So so let's get getting back into your

348
00:26:57,599 --> 00:27:04,880
research. I wanted to find doubt
you said that you saw these files unredacted,

349
00:27:06,160 --> 00:27:08,759
and you know a lot of times
you see I don't know, not

350
00:27:08,799 --> 00:27:15,200
these in particular, but you see
things that are really really redacted beyond being

351
00:27:15,240 --> 00:27:18,200
able to recognize what they're talking about. It has nothing to do with just

352
00:27:18,400 --> 00:27:23,119
private information or classified information. I
guess what I'm getting at. Did you

353
00:27:23,160 --> 00:27:30,359
see anything really interesting on the unredacted
files that are redacted and further files.

354
00:27:30,440 --> 00:27:33,680
The only thing that redacted out of
the Project Bluebook files were the names and

355
00:27:33,680 --> 00:27:37,200
the personal information. That's it.
Okay, So you would you you would

356
00:27:37,200 --> 00:27:41,400
look at a case and you couldn't
follow up on it because the names had

357
00:27:41,400 --> 00:27:47,160
been redacted. But they did a
crappy job. And the one that the

358
00:27:47,200 --> 00:27:49,920
one that really cracked me up was
they had an interview with Kenneth Arnold,

359
00:27:51,559 --> 00:27:55,480
who's the guy that started this whole
thing with his signing a mountaineer. Yeah,

360
00:27:55,759 --> 00:28:00,400
there was a telephone interview with him, and they'd even gone to the

361
00:28:00,440 --> 00:28:07,359
trouble of crossing out his initials,
you know, KAA. But across the

362
00:28:07,480 --> 00:28:11,400
front in grease pencil letters that had
to be a half an inch high,

363
00:28:11,880 --> 00:28:18,359
it said Arnold. Case kind of
gave the whole thing away their pal and

364
00:28:18,839 --> 00:28:22,599
then sometimes there would be newspaper articles
appended to the end of the file.

365
00:28:22,759 --> 00:28:26,880
They didn't redact those, so you
could put the names back in because they

366
00:28:26,880 --> 00:28:33,599
were not taken out and things like
that. And if you read most of

367
00:28:33,640 --> 00:28:37,119
the cases you read, you could
find the name. If you read the

368
00:28:37,160 --> 00:28:41,160
case material carefully enough, the names
were in there because they would miss somebody's

369
00:28:41,240 --> 00:28:45,519
name and you could figure out who
it was. The only thing that we

370
00:28:45,680 --> 00:28:52,920
that I had trouble with is the
Lubbock Lights. The first sighting took place

371
00:28:52,119 --> 00:28:56,880
in Albuquerque before it got down to
Lubeck. Or they think it's kind of

372
00:28:57,160 --> 00:29:02,759
together. The sidings kind of match, and they had. I was able

373
00:29:02,759 --> 00:29:06,200
to get the name of the husband, both his first and last name,

374
00:29:06,480 --> 00:29:10,359
but most of the newspapers said missus
and didn't give her first name. And

375
00:29:10,440 --> 00:29:12,920
it took me about twenty minutes to
find her real first name. It wasn't

376
00:29:12,920 --> 00:29:15,799
in the files. I had to
go online to do it. And that's

377
00:29:15,839 --> 00:29:18,039
the other thing about the Internet.
You can usually find what you want.

378
00:29:18,039 --> 00:29:19,480
I was able to find her first
name so I could plug it into the

379
00:29:19,519 --> 00:29:25,640
story, but that was what they
had redacted from that and The other thing

380
00:29:25,920 --> 00:29:30,480
is you heard, I think repeatedly
there were no classified files and Project Bluebook

381
00:29:30,519 --> 00:29:33,440
or things like that. They would, especially in the sixty you were saying,

382
00:29:33,440 --> 00:29:37,519
we have no classified information. When
you go through the files and you

383
00:29:37,519 --> 00:29:41,759
could see the classification marks on it, sometimes they're blacked out and heavy black

384
00:29:41,119 --> 00:29:45,039
magic marker, so you can't see
them, but you know, if it's

385
00:29:45,039 --> 00:29:48,240
a really long black smudge, well
that was confidential, and if it's a

386
00:29:48,319 --> 00:29:52,160
sort of smudge, it met secret. But sometimes they just crossed it out

387
00:29:52,200 --> 00:29:56,319
with a single stroke of a pen
or something like that, so you could

388
00:29:56,359 --> 00:29:59,839
see that they were classed out they
were classified files there. Of course,

389
00:30:00,200 --> 00:30:08,960
I think Rob Mercer from Ohio blundered
into the Project Bluebook files. He said

390
00:30:10,000 --> 00:30:11,319
that, and I interviewed him on
my program. I think you may have

391
00:30:11,359 --> 00:30:15,880
interviewed him as well. That he
was he would look at Craigslist periodically for

392
00:30:17,480 --> 00:30:22,359
used material, and somebody had a
box of material up there that had Project

393
00:30:22,359 --> 00:30:25,720
Bluebook stuff in it. So he
bought the box, and as he was

394
00:30:25,759 --> 00:30:29,079
going through it he realized it really
was Project Bluebook material, and through some

395
00:30:29,400 --> 00:30:33,759
very nice detective work, managed to
find the guy who had originally had the

396
00:30:33,759 --> 00:30:38,359
box of material and there was more
of it. A guy named Carmen Morano

397
00:30:38,400 --> 00:30:44,359
who was the last technically last officer
in charge of Project Bluebook because everybody else

398
00:30:44,400 --> 00:30:47,000
was gone, and he was tearing
down the office and even think stuff would

399
00:30:47,039 --> 00:30:48,599
be destroyed and he was going to
go through it later, but he just

400
00:30:48,680 --> 00:30:52,640
kept the boxes. And when he
moved, he inadvertently left a box behind

401
00:30:52,720 --> 00:30:55,519
and that was how Rob Mercer got
his hands on it, because somebody bought

402
00:30:55,519 --> 00:30:59,839
it a garage sale and he had
found Morano and he sent more stuff to

403
00:31:00,000 --> 00:31:00,759
and he said, well, you
can have it off you want, And

404
00:31:00,839 --> 00:31:07,519
in that was a complete set index
of Project Bluebook without the names redacted.

405
00:31:07,119 --> 00:31:15,240
The index is quite I've got the
index on printed out from from the microfilm

406
00:31:15,279 --> 00:31:18,599
and it's into loose leaf notebooks,
so it's I mean, it's a huge

407
00:31:18,599 --> 00:31:22,720
index. So he's got all that
information, but he's got everybody's name in

408
00:31:22,799 --> 00:31:26,160
that, and there's other and a
lot of the other material isn't redacted.

409
00:31:26,480 --> 00:31:30,680
So when I was doing stuff on
when I was doing my book on so

410
00:31:30,839 --> 00:31:37,119
Coral Encountering the Desert, the lots
the moral stuff, he sent me the

411
00:31:37,319 --> 00:31:42,039
entire file from that he had that
concluded not only the stuff that was in

412
00:31:42,079 --> 00:31:45,640
the official file, but the unofficial
file which they used to brief other people.

413
00:31:47,160 --> 00:31:52,759
Ben Moss and Tony Aziola think it's
the classified file. But from what

414
00:31:52,119 --> 00:31:56,640
Carmen Morno told me and from what
Rob Mercer told me, what they had

415
00:31:56,720 --> 00:32:02,200
done was the cases that everybody was
interested in. They'd created other files so

416
00:32:02,200 --> 00:32:06,319
they could get to them easily and
hand him to the reporters or whoever wanted

417
00:32:06,359 --> 00:32:12,200
to look at them. So it's
not a secret unofficial file. It's just

418
00:32:12,359 --> 00:32:15,680
an unofficial file. But he sent
me all of that stuff, so I

419
00:32:15,759 --> 00:32:17,960
had that I could plug that in
and what kind of triggered that? And

420
00:32:19,000 --> 00:32:22,720
I'm off onto the counters in the
desert now, which is about the Kora

421
00:32:22,880 --> 00:32:28,200
landing. We triggered that is I'd
been and Tony on my program and they

422
00:32:28,200 --> 00:32:30,400
had said they said a couple of
times that three people had called into the

423
00:32:30,400 --> 00:32:36,279
police station before Zamora went out,
before some more got to the landing site

424
00:32:37,480 --> 00:32:40,640
to tell him about this thing in
the sky. And I said, is

425
00:32:40,640 --> 00:32:43,960
that in the police log? Did
you look at the police log? And

426
00:32:44,000 --> 00:32:46,960
I never got a satisfactory answer from
them on that, so I was looking

427
00:32:46,960 --> 00:32:52,920
the stuff up myself, and going
through the file, I found a report

428
00:32:52,960 --> 00:32:59,200
written by Richard Holder, who was
an army officer who was there the night

429
00:32:59,240 --> 00:33:01,839
had happened and working with the FBI
agent talking to Samara and that stuff.

430
00:33:02,279 --> 00:33:06,400
And he said in his report right
there the three people who called into the

431
00:33:06,440 --> 00:33:13,519
police station with reports of this thing
flying over so here it's documented from April

432
00:33:13,519 --> 00:33:16,960
twenty four, nineteen sixty four.
So you've got the documentation. What stunned

433
00:33:17,039 --> 00:33:22,279
me was nobody followed up on that. When you got the UFO investigators down

434
00:33:22,319 --> 00:33:24,720
there, you got Hynick down there, you got all those people down there,

435
00:33:25,160 --> 00:33:30,559
and the stories out there, and
nobody tries to find who these witnesses

436
00:33:30,599 --> 00:33:34,839
are. They didn't leave their names, or the police dispatcher didn't take their

437
00:33:34,920 --> 00:33:37,279
names, and because he just was
unimpressed with their stories. But they knew

438
00:33:37,319 --> 00:33:40,200
the flight path. It wouldn't have
been hard to find them, given the

439
00:33:40,200 --> 00:33:45,720
size of SoCoRo at that time,
but nobody bothered to do that, which

440
00:33:45,799 --> 00:33:51,519
is just one of the great missed
opportunities, because you would move the Skoro

441
00:33:51,599 --> 00:34:00,799
case from being a single witness,
Lonny Zamora, to multiple witnesses at different

442
00:34:00,839 --> 00:34:05,079
locations as it flew over. We
have some documentations to suggest they were out

443
00:34:05,119 --> 00:34:07,000
there, and it would have been
really nice to talk to them and get

444
00:34:07,119 --> 00:34:10,159
their impressions of what they had seen. But you know, here we are

445
00:34:10,320 --> 00:34:14,719
nineteen or nineteen, here we are
in twenty twenty, not able to leave

446
00:34:14,760 --> 00:34:20,719
our houses, and again we just
aren't able to track the people down.

447
00:34:20,760 --> 00:34:24,599
Now, well, well, I
do want to talk about some of the

448
00:34:24,599 --> 00:34:28,920
cases, because that's you know,
we do get a lot of new listeners

449
00:34:28,920 --> 00:34:31,440
and a lot of times I forget. And speaking of new listeners, I

450
00:34:31,519 --> 00:34:35,960
just found out this is the second
show in the road in a Road that

451
00:34:36,320 --> 00:34:42,920
my sister Heidi is watching. So
high Heidi, I'm glad, she's glad

452
00:34:42,960 --> 00:34:45,360
she's watching. She's a wonderful artist, by the way, and she's starting

453
00:34:45,360 --> 00:34:50,159
to make some art. We're going
to actually put that up on the website

454
00:34:50,960 --> 00:34:57,559
coming up soon hopefully, but she's
very talented. Anyway, getting two cases,

455
00:34:58,400 --> 00:35:01,719
I saw you know you talk a
little bit about Project Sign and Project

456
00:35:01,719 --> 00:35:07,960
Grudge if I have that right,
Um, the two the two Um trying

457
00:35:07,960 --> 00:35:13,480
to thank you before? Yeah?
That, uh, now, why did

458
00:35:13,519 --> 00:35:15,519
each of those? And I want
to talk about the ghost rockets and all

459
00:35:15,519 --> 00:35:19,800
that I want to talk about some
of these really interesting things. But um,

460
00:35:20,039 --> 00:35:24,440
did they both close? How did
this? What made them close and

461
00:35:24,639 --> 00:35:30,760
go into like the next process of
grudge and then close? Yeah, And

462
00:35:31,119 --> 00:35:38,719
what happened was when when Project Sign
was created, Um, that was a

463
00:35:38,760 --> 00:35:45,719
classified name. The public name was
Project Saucer. So as they're moving along,

464
00:35:45,800 --> 00:35:51,440
somehow the name got compromised. They
wrote a final report, they said

465
00:35:51,480 --> 00:35:53,920
Sign has done, we're done.
Here's our final report. All they do

466
00:35:54,039 --> 00:35:59,039
is change the name and kept going
change it to Project Grudge. Same thing

467
00:35:59,039 --> 00:36:02,079
again, they changed the name from
Grudge to blue Book. They wrote a

468
00:36:02,079 --> 00:36:05,920
final report and said we're done with
Project Grudge, it's all done. But

469
00:36:06,639 --> 00:36:12,000
it became Project Bluebook. So it
was a way of kind of protecting the

470
00:36:12,280 --> 00:36:15,960
classified names until they got out,
and then it was a way of suggecting

471
00:36:15,000 --> 00:36:19,639
the public. There was nothing important
here because we stopped investigating, but they

472
00:36:19,679 --> 00:36:22,440
didn't stop investigating. And the same
thing when the ended Project Bluebook in nineteen

473
00:36:22,480 --> 00:36:24,280
sixty nine, they said, well, we're done, we're not doing it

474
00:36:24,320 --> 00:36:30,079
anymore. But then there was Project
Moondust, which had already been created and

475
00:36:30,159 --> 00:36:37,920
was used as a way of continuing
the investigations and and Moondust name was compromised.

476
00:36:37,800 --> 00:36:43,039
Moondust was compromised. In the mid
nineteen eighties, Robert Todd got a

477
00:36:43,079 --> 00:36:47,840
bunch of foia documents from the State
Department and in there there was stuff talking

478
00:36:47,880 --> 00:36:52,159
about Moondust, and so he started
looking into Moondust and realized they had a

479
00:36:52,239 --> 00:36:58,119
UFO component component. If we had
been really careful in our study of Project

480
00:36:58,159 --> 00:37:02,599
blue Book, we would have found
cases in their labeled Moondust. They're really

481
00:37:02,639 --> 00:37:07,599
crappy cases. They I think one
or two it and sound like meteors.

482
00:37:08,159 --> 00:37:10,639
But you go through and you read
the project card and it says right on

483
00:37:10,719 --> 00:37:15,440
the project card project Moondust, or
just says moon Dust. And one of

484
00:37:15,440 --> 00:37:19,400
the books I did I actually had, I showed the car one of the

485
00:37:19,440 --> 00:37:22,559
cards that had that term on at
Moondust. So clearly there was a UFO

486
00:37:22,599 --> 00:37:30,119
component, and clearly they were communicating
with the moon Dust people were communicating with

487
00:37:30,159 --> 00:37:37,599
Blue Book. But General Bolander said
in nineteen sixty nine that the really hot

488
00:37:37,639 --> 00:37:40,199
cases, really cases of affected national
security, it didn't go to Bluebook.

489
00:37:40,199 --> 00:37:44,079
They one elsewhere. So now we
have a general officer telling us that not

490
00:37:44,119 --> 00:37:50,440
everything is communicated to Bluebook even though
regulations required him. And then we can

491
00:37:50,519 --> 00:37:53,880
see that there were other investigations going
on at that time, so we know

492
00:37:53,960 --> 00:38:00,159
that it's the blue Book became little
more than a public relations outfit. But

493
00:38:00,199 --> 00:38:04,719
they got some really good cases while
they were doing the investigation. As I

494
00:38:04,719 --> 00:38:08,119
said, the Zamora case in nineteen
sixty four, which which I also cover

495
00:38:08,239 --> 00:38:14,000
in the Best of Project Bluebook,
it's it's a condensed version of what appears

496
00:38:14,000 --> 00:38:15,960
an encounter in the desert. So
if you're interested in that case alone,

497
00:38:16,880 --> 00:38:20,199
encountering the desert, it's the book
to look at. But if you're interested

498
00:38:20,239 --> 00:38:22,920
in just you know, the general, look at Project Bluebook and some of

499
00:38:22,920 --> 00:38:25,599
the best cases and that then the
best of Project Bluebook is what you want

500
00:38:25,639 --> 00:38:28,639
to do. And one of the
one of the things I wanted to do,

501
00:38:29,360 --> 00:38:32,119
and we talked with you, and
I mentioned earlier the Condent Committee.

502
00:38:32,880 --> 00:38:38,000
They did a investigation of a sighting
in nineteen fifty four. They i mean

503
00:38:38,079 --> 00:38:43,360
reviewed it and they didn't solve it. They didn't come up with a solution.

504
00:38:44,000 --> 00:38:47,679
They said it was a natural phenomenon
so rare, it had never been

505
00:38:47,719 --> 00:38:52,480
seen before or since. I'm thinking
even if it's not leading you to an

506
00:38:52,480 --> 00:38:59,280
alien spacecraft. A new natural phenomena
would have been of scientific value to understand,

507
00:39:00,079 --> 00:39:01,559
but they just they just blew it
off. So what I did in

508
00:39:02,119 --> 00:39:06,760
the Best Project of Bluebook, I
look for additional information on that case from

509
00:39:07,039 --> 00:39:09,119
nineteen fifty four and was able to
find it. And one of the things

510
00:39:09,360 --> 00:39:14,719
that came up in that was the
pilots of the aircraft that made the sighting

511
00:39:14,960 --> 00:39:22,519
near Greenland were interrogated by men from
it may have been the Ministry of Defense

512
00:39:22,559 --> 00:39:24,760
in Great Bit, Britain, or
it may have been air Force Air Force

513
00:39:25,320 --> 00:39:32,199
OSI guys talking about it. But
there's a newspaper article where one of the

514
00:39:32,679 --> 00:39:37,239
other crew member had run into the
pilots and asked him about the interrogation.

515
00:39:37,320 --> 00:39:40,400
So now we can't talk about that. So I was able to add additional

516
00:39:40,440 --> 00:39:45,039
detail to this the cases that appeared
in the content report and give you some

517
00:39:45,400 --> 00:39:49,119
insight of to where where it is. And the other thing I did in

518
00:39:49,159 --> 00:39:52,920
the book, and I borrowed this
from Jerry Clark in his massive UF encyclopedia.

519
00:39:53,119 --> 00:39:57,679
At the end of each segment he
would list the sources, and so

520
00:39:57,719 --> 00:40:00,199
at the end of each segment of
the book, I listed the sources used

521
00:40:00,199 --> 00:40:06,360
for that specific entry, so you
could go to those sources and kind of

522
00:40:06,400 --> 00:40:09,719
follow the trail that I had followed
to get to where I got there and

523
00:40:09,719 --> 00:40:13,559
see if you see if you may
come to the same conclusion. So I

524
00:40:13,639 --> 00:40:20,000
had based on the research that you
can kind of do yourself. Wow.

525
00:40:20,239 --> 00:40:22,559
Um, Now, I just wanted
to talk about some of the cases because

526
00:40:22,599 --> 00:40:28,119
that's always what's really fascinating to you
know, the listeners out there, and

527
00:40:28,320 --> 00:40:32,639
one of them, he's looking through
his book for those listening to the audio

528
00:40:32,719 --> 00:40:38,599
part of it. Anyway, you
talk about the ghost Rockets, which I

529
00:40:38,599 --> 00:40:45,039
think is of such a fascinating thing
nineteen forty six. Um, you really

530
00:40:45,039 --> 00:40:52,079
are looking Oh I did, um
but um you and you know I only

531
00:40:52,079 --> 00:40:54,280
got to skim the first part of
the book, and um, but you

532
00:40:54,320 --> 00:40:59,760
were talking about the different phases of
Project Sign and Project Grudge and all that.

533
00:40:59,800 --> 00:41:04,480
But the ghost Rockets. I wouldn't
just get back to that because I

534
00:41:04,559 --> 00:41:07,000
think it is so fascinating. I've
talked to class Faun about that. He's

535
00:41:07,000 --> 00:41:14,480
done a lot of research and those
things landed in lakes And I know you

536
00:41:14,559 --> 00:41:17,239
mentioned that, you know, there
was a lot of speculation that these were

537
00:41:17,320 --> 00:41:22,880
Russian and you know, no one
really they never really figured out exactly what

538
00:41:22,920 --> 00:41:30,760
they were. But interesting, I
try to set up the whole thing to

539
00:41:30,239 --> 00:41:36,000
make people understand that the UFO phenomena
didn't begin on June twenty fourth, nineteen

540
00:41:36,039 --> 00:41:39,280
forty seven, when Kenneth Arnold made
his report. It began actually during the

541
00:41:39,320 --> 00:41:44,000
Second World War with the Foo Fighters. Yes, And what is interesting is

542
00:41:44,039 --> 00:41:46,159
one of the guys involved in the
investigation of the food fighters was Colonel Howard

543
00:41:46,239 --> 00:41:52,639
McCoy. He was an American therefore
well Army Air Forces officer at the time,

544
00:41:52,800 --> 00:41:55,760
and he was involved in But when
the war ended, nobody cared anymore.

545
00:41:55,880 --> 00:42:01,599
I mean, clearly, the Foo
fighters weren't German or Japanese inventions.

546
00:42:02,079 --> 00:42:06,400
They weren't you know, they weren't
the enemy, and with the war over,

547
00:42:06,480 --> 00:42:08,199
there was no real imperative to discover
what they were, so it just

548
00:42:08,280 --> 00:42:13,760
kind of faded away. Then in
nineteen forty six you had the ghost rockets

549
00:42:14,599 --> 00:42:20,719
being seen in Scandinavia over the summer. One of the people involved in that

550
00:42:20,840 --> 00:42:23,880
was a guy named Howard McCoy.
Yass the same guy. And what you

551
00:42:23,960 --> 00:42:28,519
see is at the end of nineteen
forty six, and McCoy is in communication

552
00:42:28,559 --> 00:42:31,159
with the people in Sweden, where
a majority of the investigation took place.

553
00:42:32,880 --> 00:42:38,400
He is called in from actually their
Christmas party in December of nineteen forty six

554
00:42:38,800 --> 00:42:45,199
and told to set up an unofficial
investigation into these aerial phenomenon. So once

555
00:42:45,239 --> 00:42:50,920
you end up with Kenneth Arnold,
Howard McCoy has already got an investigation in

556
00:42:51,000 --> 00:42:54,760
place, and so it's morphed into
the official investigation of this. And so

557
00:42:54,800 --> 00:42:59,800
Howard McCoy was involved in it from
the very beginning. But the thing is,

558
00:43:00,039 --> 00:43:01,719
with the collapse of the Soviet Union, the theory had been the Soviets,

559
00:43:01,760 --> 00:43:08,079
we're doing it to intimidate the Swedes
for some reason. And when the

560
00:43:08,079 --> 00:43:15,360
Soviet Union collapse and a lot of
that their classified documentation was available for world

561
00:43:15,559 --> 00:43:21,559
wide UFO researchers, nobody found anything
to suggest that the ghost rockets were being

562
00:43:21,880 --> 00:43:24,000
being fired by the Soviets. So
it's still a mystery. We don't know

563
00:43:24,480 --> 00:43:29,559
where they originated, what they were
going going to are. There's a couple

564
00:43:29,559 --> 00:43:32,320
of pictures. I think one of
them shows a meteor and but it's a

565
00:43:32,360 --> 00:43:37,679
picture of the guy out on the
lake with his equipment and there's a streak

566
00:43:37,719 --> 00:43:40,199
in the sky and that sort of
thing. So there's some interesting stuff going

567
00:43:40,239 --> 00:43:45,920
on there. So it's a very
it's a fascinating aspect of the UFO phenomenon.

568
00:43:45,000 --> 00:43:50,000
But to understand where we are,
how we got to where we are,

569
00:43:50,519 --> 00:43:53,599
you have to begin with the FOO
fighters of World War Two and move

570
00:43:53,599 --> 00:43:57,519
forward. So that was why in
the beginning of the book, I do

571
00:43:57,599 --> 00:44:02,360
that short history of how we got
the point where we began an official UFO

572
00:44:02,440 --> 00:44:07,840
investigation. I see, yeah,
well that that all works for me.

573
00:44:07,920 --> 00:44:09,440
Let's see, we got in five
minutes, we got to go to another

574
00:44:09,440 --> 00:44:15,000
break. But um, so I
wanted to get into um you know,

575
00:44:15,079 --> 00:44:19,000
for the person knew that is just
starting to listen. You know, like

576
00:44:19,039 --> 00:44:22,400
my sister, as I just mentioned, by the way people in the chat

577
00:44:22,440 --> 00:44:25,880
room are trying to get her to
say embarrassed, tell them embarrassing stories about

578
00:44:25,960 --> 00:44:32,440
my childhood. She's she's not going
to do that. Um, but let's

579
00:44:32,480 --> 00:44:37,159
talk about some of these uh,
Like for instance, you have the roads

580
00:44:37,599 --> 00:44:44,239
photograph in July seventh, nineteen forty
seven, that was again before Project Blue

581
00:44:44,280 --> 00:44:47,079
Book. But is that something you
want to talk about? It's part of

582
00:44:47,119 --> 00:44:58,400
Project Blue Book, although the Project
Blue well before Sign even sign began in

583
00:44:58,480 --> 00:45:00,039
January nineteen forty eight, That's what
I was trying to remember here him,

584
00:45:00,800 --> 00:45:08,360
but after Arnold and they began the
unofficial investigation their sightings that precede even Arnold

585
00:45:08,360 --> 00:45:12,880
in the Project Bluebook files. But
the problem with those they were reported after

586
00:45:13,000 --> 00:45:16,719
Arnold, so you can begin to
wonder if that was some something of contamination.

587
00:45:17,119 --> 00:45:22,000
The Rhodes photograph was taken in Phoenix
in July of nineteen forty seven.

588
00:45:22,159 --> 00:45:27,280
Turns out Rhodes was a genius,
really smart guy, held a number of

589
00:45:27,320 --> 00:45:31,719
patents, had worked for the Navy
during the beginning of the Second World War.

590
00:45:32,519 --> 00:45:37,800
They were going to hire him to
do some research or hire him on

591
00:45:37,000 --> 00:45:40,840
I think the University of Arizona,
but he had a very abrasive personality and

592
00:45:40,880 --> 00:45:44,559
he said it not to work with
him. But he built some equipment for

593
00:45:44,599 --> 00:45:47,599
them, you know, designed equipment
for them and sort of that sort of

594
00:45:47,599 --> 00:45:52,079
thing. So he's a very bright
guy. He took these two photographs in

595
00:45:52,639 --> 00:45:58,599
on July seventh over Phoenix. Not
long after he took those photographs, here

596
00:45:58,639 --> 00:46:05,719
was a sighting event that took place
in Washington State and Kenneth Arnold was involved

597
00:46:05,760 --> 00:46:13,639
in investigating that for Ray Palmer,
who ran science fiction magazine. So Arnold

598
00:46:13,719 --> 00:46:17,920
was down there and he had worked
with two officers from the fourth Air Force

599
00:46:19,199 --> 00:46:22,800
intelligence officers. They came up to
help Arnold with the investigation and pick up

600
00:46:22,920 --> 00:46:27,440
some physical evidence that turned out to
be useless, and I know, unfortunately

601
00:46:27,480 --> 00:46:30,559
the two officers were killed going back
to their home basement the airplane crashed.

602
00:46:31,360 --> 00:46:39,119
But the important point here is Arnold
asked about other sightings and he was told

603
00:46:39,639 --> 00:46:45,400
that he was told about the Rhodes
photograph and that that was something that really

604
00:46:45,280 --> 00:46:53,039
disturbed the military because the photograph matched
the description that Arnold had told to the

605
00:46:53,079 --> 00:46:59,760
military. If you look at the
Project bluebook file with the Arnold sighting at

606
00:46:59,760 --> 00:47:02,760
it, there's a drawing that he
made and it's kind of a heel shaped

607
00:47:02,800 --> 00:47:07,760
object. That crescent shaped object that
morphed into later on is kind of stylized,

608
00:47:07,800 --> 00:47:14,480
but the original drawing is a heel
shaped object, and what Rhodes photographed

609
00:47:15,000 --> 00:47:21,039
is a heel shaped object. And
so the military officers were telling Arnold that,

610
00:47:21,079 --> 00:47:25,400
you know, this kind of corroborated
his sighting, So you've that becomes

611
00:47:25,400 --> 00:47:30,039
the important point of the Rhodes photographed. But the military, after the initial

612
00:47:30,039 --> 00:47:34,679
investigation, worked very hard to just
credit roads. They said, well,

613
00:47:34,719 --> 00:47:37,440
you know, he's an unemployed guy. He's got this laboratory in the backyard

614
00:47:37,519 --> 00:47:42,679
that he calls a panoramic laboratory,
and he's the director of research or something

615
00:47:42,719 --> 00:47:46,199
like that, and he just plays
piano at a bar, and he's living

616
00:47:46,239 --> 00:47:50,960
off his wife's income and that sort
of thing, and just really can't trust

617
00:47:51,039 --> 00:47:54,800
him. Kind of smeared his whole
reputation because I don't think they could really

618
00:47:54,840 --> 00:47:59,079
find anything else to attack. But
when you get into it and you start

619
00:47:59,159 --> 00:48:01,920
talking about the I'm talking to his
friends, what happened was I got him,

620
00:48:01,960 --> 00:48:08,360
and I got a call from a
fellow, a fellow who told me

621
00:48:08,440 --> 00:48:13,039
about some of the road stuff,
and so I started looking at it and

622
00:48:13,159 --> 00:48:22,039
discovered one of his friends was Arden
mind and Minden something like that, who

623
00:48:22,119 --> 00:48:25,159
was at the University of Arizona.
So, just on a lark, I

624
00:48:25,159 --> 00:48:29,440
mean, we're talking about nineteen forty
seven, I'm looking at this stuff in

625
00:48:30,000 --> 00:48:34,159
two thousand and ten, two eleven, just on a lark, I checked

626
00:48:34,159 --> 00:48:38,559
the University of Arizona website and found
the guy he's still alive. I emailed

627
00:48:38,599 --> 00:48:43,360
him, he emailed me back,
so he was able to tell me some

628
00:48:43,440 --> 00:48:45,400
of the stuff about Rhodes that the
Air Force didn't put in their file.

629
00:48:45,440 --> 00:48:49,920
So I was able to append that
to the story as it appears in the

630
00:48:49,960 --> 00:48:54,639
book. So you learn about what
he said about the genius of William Rhodes

631
00:48:55,079 --> 00:49:01,920
and how some of this stuff came
about simply because Rhodes. I think the

632
00:49:02,000 --> 00:49:07,440
military was bothered by his photographs because
they were too close to what Arnold described,

633
00:49:07,800 --> 00:49:10,079
and they worked very hard to smear
him, especially after nineteen fifty two.

634
00:49:10,079 --> 00:49:14,599
They worked very hard to smear the
guy's reputation, which I think is

635
00:49:14,719 --> 00:49:19,679
very unfortunate. Well, well we
are right at the break, Kevin,

636
00:49:20,280 --> 00:49:28,119
so we will be back right after
these messages. Hang in all right,

637
00:49:29,039 --> 00:49:32,440
welcome back to the show. My
name is Martin Willis and my guest is

638
00:49:32,679 --> 00:49:37,079
Kevin Randall. Always great having him
on the show. It's always a lot

639
00:49:37,119 --> 00:49:42,480
of fun. And we are going
to be taking calls in about twenty twenty

640
00:49:42,480 --> 00:49:45,320
five minutes from now, so that
number will be That number is there.

641
00:49:45,320 --> 00:49:47,360
If you want to write it down, it's up on the screen on YouTube.

642
00:49:47,400 --> 00:49:52,519
You can write it down if you'd
like, And again that's in about

643
00:49:52,559 --> 00:49:55,800
twenty minutes or so. We'll be
back with that number for you all.

644
00:49:57,039 --> 00:50:02,119
And so, Kevin, as far
as some of the really interesting cases when

645
00:50:02,119 --> 00:50:06,679
you're looking through this, I guess
what I'm going to ask you is,

646
00:50:06,960 --> 00:50:12,400
did you was there any case that
you really learned something you know as you

647
00:50:12,480 --> 00:50:16,639
looked into it that you were unaware
of? That was that is of note?

648
00:50:16,880 --> 00:50:21,880
Well, I talked a little bit
about some of the stuff with the

649
00:50:21,960 --> 00:50:25,599
Rhodes photograph for example. Yeah,
and looking at the Michigan sidings from nineteen

650
00:50:25,760 --> 00:50:34,440
sixty six, the Great Swamp Gas
Fiasco, and looking at that, it

651
00:50:34,480 --> 00:50:38,719
was it was interesting to see that
the explanation of swamp gas really doesn't fit

652
00:50:39,559 --> 00:50:44,440
because the well, some of the
witnesses got way too close and the swamp

653
00:50:44,519 --> 00:50:52,840
gas is kind of a a very
nebulous type fire that has a very short

654
00:50:52,360 --> 00:50:58,079
life it you know, it bursts
up there and fades out very quickly,

655
00:50:58,199 --> 00:51:06,920
and they were looking at something much
more substantial. But the way the well,

656
00:51:06,960 --> 00:51:10,119
the news media and the military kind
of manipulated the data, manipulated the

657
00:51:10,159 --> 00:51:17,920
information, and how they tried to
provide a rational as opposed to an extraterrestrial

658
00:51:19,039 --> 00:51:21,840
explanation for what was going on there
and how they were treating some of the

659
00:51:21,880 --> 00:51:27,039
witnesses. That was the one thing
that throughout the cases you would see the

660
00:51:27,079 --> 00:51:32,400
military, not the military, well
the military and the civilians being less than

661
00:51:32,440 --> 00:51:36,280
cordial to some of the witnesses trying
to tell them what they had seen,

662
00:51:36,320 --> 00:51:38,760
as opposed to what did you see
type thing, Well, this is really

663
00:51:38,760 --> 00:51:40,559
what you saw, and they would
say, well, no, I didn't

664
00:51:40,599 --> 00:51:45,679
see that. So you go through
the cases like that, and you see,

665
00:51:47,400 --> 00:51:52,199
I guess a really important thing is
you see is the case as it's

666
00:51:52,480 --> 00:51:58,519
kind of been covered in the media
or what you've heard about just briefly isn't

667
00:51:58,599 --> 00:52:02,199
really quite the truth. There's a
lot more to the case. A prime

668
00:52:02,239 --> 00:52:07,320
example is the level Land case,
which I mentioned earlier. You see that

669
00:52:07,400 --> 00:52:10,159
the Air Force saying, well,
there are only three witnesses that saw they

670
00:52:10,199 --> 00:52:15,639
saw the object, and the Air
Force gets into a big fight with Don

671
00:52:15,719 --> 00:52:19,599
Kehoe of Nightcap about the number of
witnesses, and Keijo said, well,

672
00:52:19,599 --> 00:52:22,800
there were nine, there were nine
witnesses. Looking at the Air Force file,

673
00:52:22,920 --> 00:52:29,000
I found thirteen witnesses, I should
say witnesses at thirteen separate locations.

674
00:52:29,519 --> 00:52:31,519
That's in the Air Force file,
and yet the Air Force is saying there

675
00:52:31,559 --> 00:52:36,119
were only three. There were only
three witnesses, and so you look at

676
00:52:36,639 --> 00:52:42,639
that sort of thing and you can
see where the military is manipulating the data.

677
00:52:42,960 --> 00:52:49,480
Kehoe is inflating the numbers, but
not enough because we found out that

678
00:52:49,840 --> 00:52:52,440
there were more than he said.
So the big fight was over the number

679
00:52:52,440 --> 00:52:54,800
of witnesses as opposed to what did
they see and what were their advanced I

680
00:52:54,840 --> 00:53:00,880
mean, you've got the object close
to the ground, You've got guys within,

681
00:53:00,920 --> 00:53:05,079
you know, just a few dozen
feet of the thing. It stalls

682
00:53:05,119 --> 00:53:08,519
their car engines. It causes the
lights to fade, it causes the radios

683
00:53:08,559 --> 00:53:13,840
to fade, to fill with static, and then when the object leaves,

684
00:53:14,360 --> 00:53:17,119
the lights come back on, the
radio static goes away, and their cars

685
00:53:17,159 --> 00:53:22,039
will start. And the one thing
that I discovered and looking at the level

686
00:53:22,159 --> 00:53:24,760
end cases, I noticed in one
of the cases the guy said, I

687
00:53:24,800 --> 00:53:29,320
was able to start my car.
And one of the things that we've heard

688
00:53:29,360 --> 00:53:32,000
about UFO sightings, when they stall
the car engine, the car starts again

689
00:53:32,519 --> 00:53:36,920
and it's like it's spontaneous. The
Condon Committee said, well, we can

690
00:53:36,960 --> 00:53:42,239
think of no physical reason for the
car to start spontaneously. If you've suppressed

691
00:53:42,239 --> 00:53:45,719
the engine, especially using a magnetic
field, it should not restart. You've

692
00:53:45,760 --> 00:53:50,039
interrupted the flow of electricity, so
it may cause the lights to dim,

693
00:53:50,239 --> 00:53:52,639
but you're not going to get the
car to start spontaneously. And looking at

694
00:53:52,639 --> 00:53:57,159
the case files, I discovered that
a number of people didn't say the car

695
00:53:57,199 --> 00:54:00,920
started spontaneously. They said I was
able to start my car, or the

696
00:54:00,960 --> 00:54:07,440
car was the car would start.
So I went back through all the electromagnetic

697
00:54:07,480 --> 00:54:12,400
cases about cars that Mark Rodiger had
put together. He had a book that

698
00:54:12,440 --> 00:54:15,440
he put together on the electromagnetic effects
and given you all the cases. And

699
00:54:15,559 --> 00:54:20,679
what I discovered is often the person
said that the car, you know,

700
00:54:21,000 --> 00:54:22,920
the car started again, I was
able to start the car. Didn't say

701
00:54:22,960 --> 00:54:28,199
it started spontaneously, accept in a
very few cases. And so the content

702
00:54:28,199 --> 00:54:32,760
committee rejected it because of this idea
that it could think of no physical reason

703
00:54:32,800 --> 00:54:36,599
for the car to start spontaneously.
And it turns out that's a misnomer.

704
00:54:36,760 --> 00:54:39,519
They don't start spontaneously. That was
one of the things I learned by going

705
00:54:39,559 --> 00:54:45,239
through the level Land case. It's
kind of what sparked that area of research.

706
00:54:45,719 --> 00:54:49,559
Wow, I want to just tell
this quick story. I have told

707
00:54:49,599 --> 00:54:52,440
it I don't know, three or
four times on this show over the last

708
00:54:52,639 --> 00:54:58,119
several years. But it's really fascinating
saloon those lines and that is uh.

709
00:54:58,679 --> 00:55:06,280
And I actually visited. This happened
in Russia. So this guy was driving,

710
00:55:06,320 --> 00:55:09,400
this guy that I talked to it
as my friend's father. He told

711
00:55:09,400 --> 00:55:14,000
the story. He's not into UFOs, doesn't didn't even know what it was.

712
00:55:14,119 --> 00:55:16,800
But they were driving through a pass, a very busy pass in Russia.

713
00:55:16,840 --> 00:55:20,719
I mean, like I said,
I've driven, I've ridden through it,

714
00:55:21,960 --> 00:55:24,800
and all the cars stalled, all
the cars coming both way stalled,

715
00:55:24,800 --> 00:55:28,920
and they pulled over to the side
of the road, and his stalled,

716
00:55:28,920 --> 00:55:30,400
of course, and he got out, lifted the hood and everyone else is

717
00:55:30,440 --> 00:55:34,280
lifting the hood, and all of
a sudden, without any sound at all,

718
00:55:34,280 --> 00:55:37,239
this big cigar shape thing came right
through the pass, right over them

719
00:55:38,039 --> 00:55:43,280
with portholes. He saw portholes in
it, and then it floated. He

720
00:55:43,320 --> 00:55:45,519
said, it was just like moved
through, like it floated through. And

721
00:55:45,559 --> 00:55:50,599
then everyone kind of looked at each
other and no one talked about it.

722
00:55:51,000 --> 00:55:53,239
Someone jumped back in their car after
it went through and it started and everyone's

723
00:55:53,239 --> 00:55:57,840
car started back up. I mean, isn't that bizarre. That's just another

724
00:55:57,840 --> 00:56:04,039
one of those I love actually hearing
stories from someone that is, you know,

725
00:56:04,400 --> 00:56:07,800
here's a Russian guy telling the story. It's being translated to me and

726
00:56:07,679 --> 00:56:14,599
pretty cool. Well, this sounds
like the Stoke story from New Mexico back

727
00:56:14,639 --> 00:56:19,480
in nineteen fifty seven after the level
land sightings. Just a couple of days

728
00:56:19,559 --> 00:56:24,800
later and they're driving down toward Oral
Grande and there's a pass in the Oregon

729
00:56:24,880 --> 00:56:29,800
Mountains. I mean, it's not
a big high pass or anything like that,

730
00:56:30,400 --> 00:56:31,639
but that's what happened to him.
He drives up on there and there's

731
00:56:31,639 --> 00:56:34,880
a bunch of cars pulled to the
side of the road and they've all they've

732
00:56:34,920 --> 00:56:37,639
all stopped, and his car stalls
out, so he drifts over to the

733
00:56:37,679 --> 00:56:39,599
side of the road. He gets
out of the car, he's looking up

734
00:56:39,639 --> 00:56:44,679
at the thing. It gets a
sunburn, like a sunburn from from this,

735
00:56:45,920 --> 00:56:49,519
and he was treated in the hospital. It was a very light sunburn

736
00:56:49,519 --> 00:56:52,199
and it faded quickly. But I
think Carla Renzen and Jim Lorenzen from the

737
00:56:52,199 --> 00:56:57,880
Aerophenomenal Research Organization, they got there
in time because they lived in Alamagordo,

738
00:56:57,960 --> 00:57:01,400
and of course the Air Force base
in that area where this took place.

739
00:57:01,400 --> 00:57:05,480
So they got there in time to
see the sunburn on the guy. By

740
00:57:05,480 --> 00:57:08,239
the time the Air Force investigators got
there, the sun time had faded.

741
00:57:08,440 --> 00:57:13,599
I was able to talk to one
of the guys at White Sands Missile Range,

742
00:57:13,880 --> 00:57:16,519
which is co located with Holloman.
You have to keep thinking that people

743
00:57:16,519 --> 00:57:20,639
don't understand, don't know all these
details at Holloman is right there by White

744
00:57:20,639 --> 00:57:22,800
Sands, and White Sands goes all
the way up in New Mexico to nearly

745
00:57:22,800 --> 00:57:28,119
Soakoro and all of this sort of
thing. But I talked to one of

746
00:57:28,119 --> 00:57:34,159
the guys, one of the MPs, who was on duty the second the

747
00:57:34,639 --> 00:57:37,519
night of the level Land sightings down
November second morning of November third, nineteen

748
00:57:37,599 --> 00:57:43,079
fifty seven. After the thing it
left level Land, they get involved in

749
00:57:43,119 --> 00:57:47,079
the UFO sighting and there were four
MP's involved in it. And that's what

750
00:57:47,239 --> 00:57:50,960
really killed me about this. So
the Air Force comes to investigate and they're

751
00:57:50,960 --> 00:57:53,079
making fun of the well, you
know, they're just a bunch of kids

752
00:57:53,079 --> 00:57:55,559
out there, are the MPs.
There are twenty one, twenty two years

753
00:57:55,599 --> 00:57:59,440
old and I'm thinking, really,
you're going to do that now, you

754
00:57:59,599 --> 00:58:02,800
play that silly game. I was
an Army helicopter pilot in Vietnam, an

755
00:58:02,800 --> 00:58:07,639
aircraft commander at nineteen, and so
you're making fun of these guys who are

756
00:58:08,039 --> 00:58:12,840
much more mature than I was,
who were regarding this thing as well.

757
00:58:13,280 --> 00:58:15,320
You know, they were just a
bunch of excitable kids. And I'm thinking,

758
00:58:15,440 --> 00:58:19,840
now, I ain't going to buy
that, fella. That was the

759
00:58:19,880 --> 00:58:22,599
other thing. I kind of learned
that as well. As you look at

760
00:58:22,599 --> 00:58:25,000
that, and you can see how
the Air Force kind of manipulated the data

761
00:58:25,039 --> 00:58:30,039
of the investigators, would manipulated the
data to make it not as make the

762
00:58:30,119 --> 00:58:34,159
witnesses seem not as credible as they
were. Wow, yeah, that doesn't

763
00:58:34,199 --> 00:58:37,480
that doesn't surprise me. Ken.
Now I've got a little bit of an

764
00:58:37,480 --> 00:58:40,639
inside scoop here that I forgot to
even ask you if it was okay if

765
00:58:40,639 --> 00:58:45,719
I talked about and you can tell
me yes or no. And there's a

766
00:58:45,800 --> 00:58:50,880
roswell series. Um, I think
you actually interviewed. Is that that's coming

767
00:58:50,960 --> 00:58:54,119
up? Can you talk at all
about that? No, I'm just kidding.

768
00:58:57,239 --> 00:59:02,800
You cracked me up. And it's
part of a larger series where some

769
00:59:02,840 --> 00:59:10,960
famous guys investigating a lot of UFO
stuff or paranormal stuff or cryptozoology stuff.

770
00:59:12,360 --> 00:59:15,519
And part of the series takes place
in Roswell, and they devote six hours

771
00:59:15,559 --> 00:59:20,639
of this series. All the others
are like an hour or two hours.

772
00:59:20,920 --> 00:59:24,880
They devote six hours to the Roswell
case. And so they've we went back

773
00:59:24,880 --> 00:59:30,960
down and looked at the Rami memo
at the Special Collections at the University of

774
00:59:30,000 --> 00:59:38,119
Texas at Arlington and try to try
to try to decipher that a little bit

775
00:59:38,159 --> 00:59:42,199
better. And they've talked to a
lot of the people who had them.

776
00:59:42,239 --> 00:59:44,880
Marcel's involved in that sort of thing. So it's gonna be a very interesting

777
00:59:44,920 --> 00:59:49,280
thing. And there's some very interesting
stuff that I can't talk about yet till

778
00:59:49,320 --> 00:59:52,079
this series years. And I'm sitting
here thinking, I got to do a

779
00:59:52,079 --> 00:59:54,760
blog posting because this is really great
stuff, and I can't do it because

780
00:59:55,400 --> 00:59:59,480
they wouldn't. I mean, they
it was their discovery. So they get

781
00:59:59,480 --> 01:00:05,000
to the get to break the story
at the beginning, but once it,

782
01:00:05,159 --> 01:00:07,679
once it airs, I'm going to
have the producer of the show on my

783
01:00:07,840 --> 01:00:12,440
show. Um, when we get
to the point where the series will air

784
01:00:12,480 --> 01:00:15,159
out, they think a little error
in June, but they weren't sure exactly

785
01:00:15,159 --> 01:00:19,239
what the scheduling was going to be
on the on the History Channel, I

786
01:00:19,280 --> 01:00:21,960
believe, Yeah, on the History
Channel. Wow. So I want to

787
01:00:22,039 --> 01:00:23,239
keep on the loop in that so
I can let my listeners know. And

788
01:00:24,119 --> 01:00:28,159
so if before that goes up,
I would. I mean, anything new

789
01:00:28,320 --> 01:00:30,519
is always interesting when it comes to
a case like that. I think,

790
01:00:30,519 --> 01:00:34,880
you know, we looked again at
the Ramy Memo and those of who I

791
01:00:35,000 --> 01:00:38,800
was with Josh Gates down there two
or three years ago doing the same sort

792
01:00:38,800 --> 01:00:44,159
of thing. And so but you
get to see, you know, you've

793
01:00:44,159 --> 01:00:46,800
heard about the Ramy Memo and the
special Collections, and you get to see

794
01:00:46,840 --> 01:00:51,280
that stuff now, and you get
to see where all the negatives they have

795
01:00:51,360 --> 01:00:55,559
in cold stories. They have a
vault which is climate control. I think

796
01:00:55,559 --> 01:01:01,440
it like forty degrees, because they
discovered that the negatives that they had were

797
01:01:01,519 --> 01:01:06,000
beginning to deteriorate, and so they
put him into They built this four million

798
01:01:06,079 --> 01:01:12,320
dollar vault to store this stuff.
And they had literally tens of thousands of

799
01:01:12,320 --> 01:01:15,320
photographs that came from the Fort Worth
Star Telegram, which was a big who

800
01:01:15,320 --> 01:01:19,440
which was is the big, big
newspaper in Fort Worth, So they had

801
01:01:19,519 --> 01:01:24,639
all those photographs and everybody, everybody
focuses on this this one little deal of

802
01:01:24,679 --> 01:01:30,199
the Ramie memo. But they've got
photographs going back into the nineteenth century and

803
01:01:30,519 --> 01:01:36,639
some really fascinating stuff there that goes
just beyond Roswell. But the case and

804
01:01:37,000 --> 01:01:40,519
the segment I was in, well
I did. I did a an interview

805
01:01:40,559 --> 01:01:45,079
and we talked about other aspects of
the Roswell case as well. So it's

806
01:01:45,519 --> 01:01:46,880
a long thing. I think they
I think they talked to Don Schmidt and

807
01:01:46,920 --> 01:01:51,760
Tom Kerry and I don't know who
all. They talked to the Marcels and

808
01:01:52,039 --> 01:01:55,199
they were out at the museum and
they were out at the site where the

809
01:01:55,239 --> 01:02:01,639
thing where Bill Brasil identified the brief
field for Donn and me. And I

810
01:02:01,719 --> 01:02:05,519
say it that way because people have
said, well, you guys didn't really

811
01:02:05,519 --> 01:02:07,960
know where the debris field was,
and I'm thinking, you know, Bill

812
01:02:07,960 --> 01:02:12,079
Brazzle took me out there. I'm
pretty sure I got to the right place.

813
01:02:12,760 --> 01:02:15,800
You know, the guy had seen
it, he'd been out there.

814
01:02:15,920 --> 01:02:20,800
I'm pretty sure we're on the right
section in New Mexico desert. So yeah,

815
01:02:20,880 --> 01:02:22,599
yeah, wow, Um, one
of the one of the things I

816
01:02:23,360 --> 01:02:30,119
saw that you had in as a
chapter in the book is the Heflin photo

817
01:02:30,519 --> 01:02:34,719
or photographs. I think there are
three of them. Now let me just

818
01:02:35,159 --> 01:02:37,880
ask you this, And for the
YouTube person on YouTube, I just put

819
01:02:37,880 --> 01:02:44,840
a picture up there of it.
I have been told by someone that that

820
01:02:44,960 --> 01:02:50,639
was a hoax. Do you know
anything about that? Of course, well,

821
01:02:50,880 --> 01:02:55,119
well will you get to any any
good photograph? And the skeptical community

822
01:02:55,119 --> 01:03:00,920
when they run out of explanations,
it's a hoax. Yeah, And oftentimes

823
01:03:00,000 --> 01:03:07,920
the hoax explanation is appended to it
based on some really shaky stuff that I

824
01:03:07,960 --> 01:03:15,719
think the roads photographs are hoax because
they didn't like his panoramic research laboratory in

825
01:03:15,760 --> 01:03:20,840
his backyard and calling himself the director
or the chief engineer or something. And

826
01:03:20,880 --> 01:03:24,199
they didn't like the fact that he
didn't have a real job like other people

827
01:03:24,280 --> 01:03:28,559
do. He was a musician,
and I'm thinking he's playing piano in a

828
01:03:28,559 --> 01:03:31,719
bar. Playing piano is a really
tough thing to do. And yet he

829
01:03:31,719 --> 01:03:35,920
holds all these pat and the old
patents which he was making money on and

830
01:03:36,000 --> 01:03:39,000
that sort of thing. But they
smeared him because he had a claimed to

831
01:03:39,000 --> 01:03:45,280
have a PhD from Columbia, and
he had a little tiny wallet side card

832
01:03:45,360 --> 01:03:47,920
that had that on there. And
I think that the way that all came

833
01:03:47,960 --> 01:03:53,400
about. You're gonna have to excuse
me for a moment, is that when

834
01:03:53,440 --> 01:03:57,800
he went into the Navy or was
working with the Navy, is working for

835
01:03:57,800 --> 01:04:00,639
the Navy, they realized in their
research section they didn't have a lot of

836
01:04:00,639 --> 01:04:04,199
guys with PhDs or master's degrees and
that sort of thing. And what they

837
01:04:04,239 --> 01:04:10,519
did was they created a program of
giving them equivalency degrees. And you took

838
01:04:10,559 --> 01:04:14,480
this complex test and if you scored
well enough, well then you had the

839
01:04:14,480 --> 01:04:17,280
equivalent of a bachelor's degree. Score
higher, you got a master's degree.

840
01:04:17,320 --> 01:04:20,159
And if you scored at the top, you got the equivalency of a PhD.

841
01:04:20,199 --> 01:04:28,000
And of course Roads scored at the
top. I don't know he had

842
01:04:28,039 --> 01:04:30,760
that little card. Columbia doesn't seem
to know anything about it, but he

843
01:04:30,800 --> 01:04:35,039
had that card. He was and
he talked about the equivalency in a couple

844
01:04:35,039 --> 01:04:40,440
of times, so you know,
they decided because of that he claimed to

845
01:04:40,440 --> 01:04:45,119
have a PhD. Was he was
hoaxing it With Hefflin, It's kind of

846
01:04:45,159 --> 01:04:49,360
the same thing because he talked about
two guys from Norad. I think it

847
01:04:49,559 --> 01:04:54,480
was coming down to ask for the
photographs, the original photographs, and he

848
01:04:54,519 --> 01:04:57,840
gave them to him. So the
original photographs disappeared for a long period of

849
01:04:57,880 --> 01:05:00,320
time and the Air Force was saying, well, Norad wouldn't have been involved

850
01:05:00,320 --> 01:05:04,480
in the investigation. Ergo, he's
made this story up and it's a hoax

851
01:05:05,119 --> 01:05:11,320
then, um, because I think
ground Saucer watching Hayden Hughes, I believe,

852
01:05:12,320 --> 01:05:15,840
did a computer analysis of the photographs
or one of the photographs, and

853
01:05:15,880 --> 01:05:19,960
he found a line on it and
he suggested this line in the computer enhancement

854
01:05:20,360 --> 01:05:28,920
suggest it was something suspended above the
truck. It was reinvestigated later, and

855
01:05:29,000 --> 01:05:31,400
I'd cover all of this in detail
in the book if you really I mean,

856
01:05:31,440 --> 01:05:35,000
if people really want to get the
details rather than just kind of viewing

857
01:05:35,039 --> 01:05:41,079
it here. But they talk about
getting the original photographs back. He was

858
01:05:41,159 --> 01:05:48,639
told yeah, Um, Hefflin was
told to go out and look at his

859
01:05:48,920 --> 01:05:51,440
mailbox. He went out, there
was nothing there. He got a call

860
01:05:51,519 --> 01:05:54,679
from the guy an hour later and
he says, go look at your mailbox,

861
01:05:54,679 --> 01:05:58,519
and there were the original photographs.
So Druffel and her team were able

862
01:05:58,559 --> 01:06:02,440
to re examined the photographs and they
could find no evidence of the string in

863
01:06:02,920 --> 01:06:06,960
And they said that Hughes and the
ground saucer and watch guys were working from

864
01:06:06,960 --> 01:06:13,320
a third or fourth generation print and
that had been creased and folded and that

865
01:06:13,400 --> 01:06:16,119
sort of thing, and the line
was probably a artifact from the way the

866
01:06:18,679 --> 01:06:23,800
print had been handled, and they
could find no evidence of it. So

867
01:06:25,079 --> 01:06:30,039
I think we're back to the idea
that Heflin may have photographed something really unusual.

868
01:06:30,480 --> 01:06:38,400
There was other evidence also that other
guys working in his department with the

869
01:06:38,480 --> 01:06:43,920
Highway Services, they had radio communications
and they were having radio communications when this

870
01:06:44,000 --> 01:06:47,280
object was overhead. Radio communications problems
when the object was overhead, So there's

871
01:06:47,320 --> 01:06:51,559
additional information, and I think,
you know, you move beyond the idea

872
01:06:51,599 --> 01:06:57,880
that this is a this is a
hoax that Heflin dreamed up himself. That

873
01:06:58,039 --> 01:07:00,440
was that that's always the fallback position, and if we cannot explain it,

874
01:07:00,480 --> 01:07:03,679
well, then it's obviously a hoax. Yeah. I'm trying to remember who

875
01:07:03,760 --> 01:07:11,119
told me that on this show.
Alice Struffle, I take and do it,

876
01:07:11,199 --> 01:07:13,280
I know, but I talked to
their daughter, Alice. Oh,

877
01:07:13,320 --> 01:07:15,639
I'm sorry, Yeah, and Alice
told me that they still have those.

878
01:07:15,719 --> 01:07:20,880
They have the three pictures in their
safe in their house right now, so

879
01:07:20,920 --> 01:07:25,800
they still have those available. These
are to explain it. Why don't we

880
01:07:25,920 --> 01:07:29,280
just explain what happened there? It
was polaroids, right, and it was

881
01:07:29,320 --> 01:07:33,639
a salesman or some no, he's
worked for the Highway Department. Oh okay,

882
01:07:33,679 --> 01:07:39,840
right right right, driving down the
road and saw this strange object through

883
01:07:39,880 --> 01:07:45,239
the windows of the of his truck
and he managed to take three polaroid photographs

884
01:07:45,239 --> 01:07:48,119
of the object as it flew over. And another reason they thought it was

885
01:07:48,119 --> 01:07:53,159
a hoax is later he showed them
a fourth photograph, which was kind of

886
01:07:53,159 --> 01:07:56,360
a smoke ring type thing, and
they were all concerned at that. He

887
01:07:56,400 --> 01:08:00,119
didn't show that photograph up front for
some reason. I'm not sure why,

888
01:08:00,199 --> 01:08:06,559
but it's an object that hovered over
the area for a period of time.

889
01:08:06,599 --> 01:08:13,920
He took three very clear photographs of
it. There was all sorts of analysis

890
01:08:14,000 --> 01:08:17,319
done, and there again in the
UFO field, pick the analysis you like

891
01:08:17,439 --> 01:08:21,560
the best and run with it,
because there's going to be an analysis that

892
01:08:21,640 --> 01:08:25,880
falls into your own belief structure.
If you believe there's no alien visitation,

893
01:08:25,920 --> 01:08:30,159
there can't be any UFOs, then
clearly it's a hoax, and there's photo

894
01:08:30,199 --> 01:08:33,279
analysis that will prove that to you. And if you accept alien visitations and

895
01:08:33,319 --> 01:08:41,000
you believe they're UFOs or flying saucers, then this photograph tends to support that

896
01:08:41,000 --> 01:08:45,079
that belief, So you can find
the analysis that will support that as well.

897
01:08:45,960 --> 01:08:51,199
Do you know if he was interviewed, you know, and intensely interviewed

898
01:08:51,239 --> 01:08:56,920
about this whole this whole situation.
He was interviewed a number of times,

899
01:08:56,920 --> 01:09:01,680
both by the military and private UFOs
chers. I think Robert would talk to

900
01:09:01,800 --> 01:09:06,760
him some years after the event as
well, so you know he was he

901
01:09:06,800 --> 01:09:13,119
was interviewed by a lot of people. Didn't cause him any any aggravation at

902
01:09:13,119 --> 01:09:15,279
work, I don't think. I
know, police officers who were involved in

903
01:09:16,079 --> 01:09:23,880
uh UFO chases and UFO sightings often
found themselves ridiculed and harassed out of their

904
01:09:23,960 --> 01:09:29,239
jobs eventually, but I don't think
that that happened. I think he went

905
01:09:29,239 --> 01:09:32,920
on retired from his job there.
But this was in but the narrowly the

906
01:09:32,960 --> 01:09:40,279
Eltoro Marine Base in southern California.
I see, Wow, did they did

907
01:09:40,319 --> 01:09:44,199
anyone ever try to say it was
a military uh you know, secret military

908
01:09:44,359 --> 01:09:46,239
project? Or anything like that.
Are you aware of nothing like that?

909
01:09:46,920 --> 01:09:49,520
You know, it hadn't been a
secret military project back when he took the

910
01:09:49,560 --> 01:09:54,560
photographs in the nineteen sixties. You
would think that, you know, we

911
01:09:54,680 --> 01:09:56,920
would already know what it is.
We'd say, well, here, here's

912
01:09:56,920 --> 01:10:00,479
what it really was. And that's
that's never happened with this these particular sets

913
01:10:00,479 --> 01:10:03,960
of photographs, so you know.
And that's the other thing, you know,

914
01:10:04,000 --> 01:10:06,920
when you look at the older cases
and they say, well it was

915
01:10:06,960 --> 01:10:12,640
a military secret. Yeah, what
sort of technology was available fifty years ago

916
01:10:13,479 --> 01:10:16,800
that is now that isn't now obsolete
that we don't know about. Gee whiz.

917
01:10:16,880 --> 01:10:21,600
We know about the B two bomber
in the in the F one seventeen,

918
01:10:23,520 --> 01:10:29,439
which were highly classified projects in the
late eighties early nineties, and now

919
01:10:29,479 --> 01:10:34,159
we've got photographs of them and we
know exactly what they're what they look like.

920
01:10:34,199 --> 01:10:39,079
So um, you know that I
can't think of a project that would

921
01:10:39,079 --> 01:10:46,199
be still be classified at this late
date that wouldn't have been wouldn't be obsolete

922
01:10:46,239 --> 01:10:51,239
now based on the advancement of our
technology, because we're talking about nineteen sixties

923
01:10:51,520 --> 01:10:55,840
and a polaroid camera, which for
those of you who do not know.

924
01:10:55,960 --> 01:10:58,800
Polaroid camera was the deal. You
took the picture and it slid out of

925
01:10:58,800 --> 01:11:00,800
the camera and it developed in sixty
seconds. It didn't have to go to

926
01:11:00,960 --> 01:11:05,680
a photoshop to get it, which
is of course digital cameras are much better

927
01:11:05,760 --> 01:11:11,039
now, a much better way of
doing it. Not to saying a polaroid

928
01:11:11,039 --> 01:11:14,039
it was digital. It actually had
film and negatives and all of that stuff.

929
01:11:14,359 --> 01:11:18,279
Yeah, yeah, all right,
so let's just I want to switch

930
01:11:18,319 --> 01:11:23,439
to a different case. It's actually
close to home for me. I lived

931
01:11:23,439 --> 01:11:27,119
in the area quite a while.
And that's chapter thirteen. You talk about

932
01:11:27,199 --> 01:11:30,680
the Exeter, the Exeter, New
Hampshire siting, and I'm interested to know

933
01:11:30,760 --> 01:11:34,199
what Project Bluebook had to say about
that. Well, it's in the book.

934
01:11:34,199 --> 01:11:36,600
You should read the book, don't
not a centric I know. I

935
01:11:36,680 --> 01:11:42,720
cut the book, Yeah I will. I just didn't get a chance.

936
01:11:42,760 --> 01:11:46,119
And I looked at what the Air
Force had to say about it and where

937
01:11:46,399 --> 01:11:50,439
all of that went, and I
think what you look at, you see

938
01:11:50,520 --> 01:11:58,039
that it's not just a single witness
case. The Air Force glommed onto the

939
01:11:58,039 --> 01:12:04,039
ionization of the atmosphere explanation, which
Philip Class invented because of the Exeter sighting

940
01:12:04,119 --> 01:12:10,000
saying that the electrical discharges from these
high tension wines would ionize the air and

941
01:12:10,039 --> 01:12:14,560
that creats these big glowing balls of
gas. And anybody who's lived around high

942
01:12:14,560 --> 01:12:16,399
tension lines, no, that's really
true. By the way, that was

943
01:12:16,439 --> 01:12:23,720
sarcasm and the a the Air Force
jumped onto that explanation. But you get

944
01:12:23,720 --> 01:12:27,359
down to it, and you've got
police officers involved. You've got multiple witnesses.

945
01:12:27,399 --> 01:12:30,439
You've got not just the guy seeing
it and becoming frightened. You've got

946
01:12:30,439 --> 01:12:34,960
a police officer who who in the
before the guy showed up at the police

947
01:12:34,960 --> 01:12:40,840
station, he'd found a woman sitting
in her card and overpassed, was very

948
01:12:40,920 --> 01:12:45,600
upset and said that this flying saucer
had been following her and you got her

949
01:12:45,600 --> 01:12:47,279
calm down and send her on her
way. And they gets the police station

950
01:12:47,399 --> 01:12:50,479
here, this guy comes in and
he's upset and talking about flying saucers again.

951
01:12:50,520 --> 01:12:54,920
So they go out to the area
where he'd seen the flying saucer and

952
01:12:55,279 --> 01:12:59,000
they see it in the distance.
Another police officer shows up and they and

953
01:12:59,079 --> 01:13:02,359
he sees it as well. It's
a big glowing mass near this h over

954
01:13:02,439 --> 01:13:08,079
this house and by these high tension
lines and that that became the explanation for

955
01:13:08,119 --> 01:13:10,840
the Air Force a high tension lines. But it was a series of sightings

956
01:13:10,880 --> 01:13:15,720
by a number of people over a
period of time that was quite complex.

957
01:13:15,199 --> 01:13:24,119
I talked to a physicist and it
was on a different case about this ionization

958
01:13:24,199 --> 01:13:30,520
of the atmosphere. I think after
class class made that explanation. I think

959
01:13:30,520 --> 01:13:33,960
he revealed the explanation in Aviation Weeks
Week in Space Technology, which he was

960
01:13:34,000 --> 01:13:38,640
a magazine. He was a senior
editor Force, even senior aviation editor for

961
01:13:39,840 --> 01:13:42,800
talked about that, and he put
that explanation out there, and the atmospheric

962
01:13:42,800 --> 01:13:45,800
physicists and the physicists just came down
heavily on as had ain't going to be

963
01:13:45,840 --> 01:13:49,199
the way. But I called a
physicist about that. He was talking to

964
01:13:49,279 --> 01:13:55,159
him about the object that was seen
over my Not North South Dakota, my

965
01:13:55,279 --> 01:14:00,600
Not Air Force base, and the
idea again the Air Force, that it

966
01:14:00,680 --> 01:14:04,239
was ionization of the atmosphere. And
I talked to him about that, and

967
01:14:04,279 --> 01:14:06,319
he said, well, don't you
think that if that was true, we'd

968
01:14:06,319 --> 01:14:11,039
be seeing those all over the place. And what became clear, Yeah,

969
01:14:11,079 --> 01:14:15,319
there is an ionization does take place
of the atmosphere. But the problem is

970
01:14:15,359 --> 01:14:19,159
it doesn't glow unless it's acted on
by some other mechanism. So you might

971
01:14:19,239 --> 01:14:27,399
have this ionization that might affect radar
in the way temperature version would affect radar,

972
01:14:27,880 --> 01:14:30,520
but people aren't going to be able
to see it. It doesn't naturally

973
01:14:30,600 --> 01:14:35,840
glow. And so the Air Force
explanation that these guys are seeing this glowing

974
01:14:36,000 --> 01:14:42,439
ionization of the atmosphere, it just
doesn't work because they just don't normally glow.

975
01:14:43,199 --> 01:14:45,720
And but that was that was kind
of the Air Force explanation for the

976
01:14:45,720 --> 01:14:49,880
whole case. But I was able
to take it beyond that and find additional

977
01:14:49,920 --> 01:14:56,279
witnesses. I think John Fuller's book
Incident Exeter, I think it was,

978
01:14:57,159 --> 01:15:00,960
does a real nice job of laying
some of the evidence out in greater detail

979
01:15:00,039 --> 01:15:03,039
than I do in this book.
But you know, I've got the I've

980
01:15:03,039 --> 01:15:09,039
got the basics down there and the
explanations, and as I say, my

981
01:15:09,039 --> 01:15:13,119
mine is based on the Air Force
file and then the later information that people

982
01:15:13,159 --> 01:15:18,000
like John Fuller was able to um
to find. You know, Jerry Clark

983
01:15:18,039 --> 01:15:23,119
has done a wonderful job of explaining
that in his UFO Encyclopedia, and there's

984
01:15:23,159 --> 01:15:27,199
a lot of other information out there
and various sources that you know you can

985
01:15:27,279 --> 01:15:30,960
draw upon too. I just kind
of collect all of that information and consolidated

986
01:15:30,960 --> 01:15:35,199
it into into the book. Right. I haven't heard much from Jerry Clark

987
01:15:35,279 --> 01:15:40,399
in a while. Um, I
know he hasn't written a book in a

988
01:15:40,439 --> 01:15:43,199
long time. But he was really
good. He did some really good work.

989
01:15:44,239 --> 01:15:46,800
Well, if you're going to be
an UFO researcher, you absolutely have

990
01:15:46,840 --> 01:15:53,159
to have the uf encyclopedia that he
did. The problem is it's really pricey.

991
01:15:53,399 --> 01:15:56,640
It's like, you know, a
couple of hundred dollars and yeah,

992
01:15:57,520 --> 01:16:01,560
but it's it's it's just so comprehend, hansive, and I'm astonished at some

993
01:16:01,600 --> 01:16:09,920
of the stuff that isn't in there. But in the third edition that he

994
01:16:10,279 --> 01:16:15,359
just completed a couple of years ago, he said, because of the constraints

995
01:16:15,359 --> 01:16:18,079
placed on him by the publisher,
he had to leave some stuff out that

996
01:16:18,319 --> 01:16:24,640
he wanted to get in there.
So, but it's a wonderful research tool

997
01:16:24,680 --> 01:16:27,720
for anybody who's doing UFOL research.
You've got to have a copy of that

998
01:16:27,760 --> 01:16:31,720
book, of those books, two
volumes, You've got to have that because

999
01:16:31,720 --> 01:16:35,319
that's that's a good basis to start
and like I said, I borrowed from

1000
01:16:35,399 --> 01:16:40,479
him the idea. In the Best
of Project Blue Book, at the end

1001
01:16:40,520 --> 01:16:44,399
of each chapter, I put a
list of the sources um and that I

1002
01:16:44,439 --> 01:16:47,560
borrowed that idea from him, because
in his uf encyclopedia, after you get

1003
01:16:47,600 --> 01:16:53,960
done reading the article, there's a
long list of sources. Sometimes it's a

1004
01:16:54,039 --> 01:16:58,159
very shortlist because there's not a lot
of sources, but a very detailed list

1005
01:16:58,199 --> 01:17:02,159
of sources, and then there's a
a massive bibliography at the end and all

1006
01:17:02,159 --> 01:17:06,279
of that stuff in it as well. But it's just an absolute must have

1007
01:17:06,359 --> 01:17:11,600
research tool for anybody doing UFO research, right yeah, oh yeah, he's

1008
01:17:11,600 --> 01:17:14,680
a multi talented guy too. I
think he writes music or something like that

1009
01:17:15,119 --> 01:17:21,680
I wanted to published. Oh really
wow, Yes, yeah. We are

1010
01:17:21,720 --> 01:17:26,640
opening the lines right now for calls. And if you're over at KGRA A

1011
01:17:26,840 --> 01:17:30,399
radio and write this down, that's
eight five five four seven two five four

1012
01:17:30,520 --> 01:17:33,600
eight three. It's up on the
screen if you're on YouTube and we are

1013
01:17:33,680 --> 01:17:42,359
taking calls and Race will be standing
by to screen your call. So let's

1014
01:17:42,399 --> 01:17:45,840
see we have you have a lot
of different ones that you have looked into.

1015
01:17:46,279 --> 01:17:50,680
And I know that the mcminville one
I don't see you don't have that

1016
01:17:50,720 --> 01:17:56,479
one in here, but there is
there's question about that photograph too, And

1017
01:17:56,520 --> 01:18:00,880
I always, you know, I
hear these things from different people, and

1018
01:18:01,000 --> 01:18:05,119
I just wanted to get your quick
opinion on that. The problem we have

1019
01:18:05,520 --> 01:18:10,199
is we have and I really don't
want to say skeptical community, because it's

1020
01:18:10,199 --> 01:18:15,880
really not skeptics. It's the bunkers
who believe there is absolutely no alien visitation

1021
01:18:15,199 --> 01:18:19,279
ergo. Any suggests otherwise must be
a hoax. You know. So you've

1022
01:18:19,279 --> 01:18:24,399
got the pictures at Menville, which
have to be a hoax because there's no

1023
01:18:24,439 --> 01:18:28,880
other explanation for him. I thought
I had done in a different book.

1024
01:18:28,920 --> 01:18:34,640
I thought I had done a fairly
neutral job of recounting this stuff. And

1025
01:18:34,840 --> 01:18:38,199
one guy pointed out to me that
it turned out to be very negative.

1026
01:18:38,239 --> 01:18:41,039
I didn't think it was negative at
all. But yeah, there's the idea

1027
01:18:41,079 --> 01:18:46,079
that's a hoax. But I just
can't see these people in McMinnville, Oregon,

1028
01:18:46,119 --> 01:18:53,880
the farmer and his wife creating this
hoax. They just didn't seem sophisticated

1029
01:18:54,000 --> 01:18:57,560
enough to do that sort of thing. Let's make a UFO side, Let's

1030
01:18:57,560 --> 01:19:00,239
make a UFO hoax. Now,
if we were in twenty twenty and this

1031
01:19:00,279 --> 01:19:05,279
came up, I'd say, yeah, it's very possible because of what we

1032
01:19:05,319 --> 01:19:11,000
can do. But this is nineteen
fifty and people don't understand how to make

1033
01:19:11,039 --> 01:19:16,279
double exposures, or how to how
to create images on the film that aren't

1034
01:19:16,279 --> 01:19:19,000
really in the sky around them,
and that sort of thing. And so

1035
01:19:19,039 --> 01:19:24,880
I just can't see that a farmer
and his wife would have come up with

1036
01:19:25,000 --> 01:19:31,239
this this explanation, and then once
they got the photographs back and saw that

1037
01:19:31,319 --> 01:19:36,279
they turned out really really well,
didn't immediately take them to the news media.

1038
01:19:36,520 --> 01:19:41,399
Didn't do that. A friend of
theirs found saw happened to see the

1039
01:19:42,520 --> 01:19:45,199
parents in the house, and said
they should take it to the newspaper,

1040
01:19:45,239 --> 01:19:47,880
which they eventually did. I mean, it wasn't like, well, we've

1041
01:19:47,960 --> 01:19:50,680
got this great Hoak story, now
let's take it to the newspaper because we

1042
01:19:50,720 --> 01:19:57,000
know the photographs turned out. I
just don't like the Hoak's explanation appended to

1043
01:19:57,079 --> 01:20:00,359
everything. There may be another explanation
for it, but they're seeing to be

1044
01:20:00,439 --> 01:20:04,039
stuff in there that in the story
that they tell and the way it was

1045
01:20:04,039 --> 01:20:06,359
told. One of the one of
the reasons they said it was a hoax,

1046
01:20:08,000 --> 01:20:12,720
I believe, as they were looking
at the shadows on the garage under

1047
01:20:12,840 --> 01:20:15,760
the eaves of the garage, and
they said the photos were taken not taken

1048
01:20:15,880 --> 01:20:18,840
close together. They were taken twenty
or thirty minutes apart, and they weren't

1049
01:20:18,840 --> 01:20:24,800
taken in the order that. Yeah
something now the sun in the shadows under

1050
01:20:24,880 --> 01:20:29,600
that, and you know it's all
that kind of detail. Yeah, yeah,

1051
01:20:30,279 --> 01:20:35,720
we got we got someone online one
I believe it's the Paul. Is

1052
01:20:35,760 --> 01:20:40,960
it Paul Heinick? Yeah, Hi, Martin. How are you. Hey,

1053
01:20:41,079 --> 01:20:45,960
Paul, great to hear you.
How are you badways? Uh?

1054
01:20:45,279 --> 01:20:49,000
Dave Altman told me about the show, Oh excellent. Well, I have

1055
01:20:49,079 --> 01:20:51,279
to tell you, Paul, I
had so much fun with you out in

1056
01:20:51,520 --> 01:20:56,239
Phoenix back in September. I love
your sense of humor here, a lot

1057
01:20:56,239 --> 01:21:00,600
of fun to hang around with.
Um. So I'm really by the way,

1058
01:21:00,600 --> 01:21:05,039
for the listener, this is Paul
Heinik and the son of doctor j

1059
01:21:05,239 --> 01:21:10,079
Alan Heineck, who is on the
line right now. I saw you in

1060
01:21:10,119 --> 01:21:14,000
the chat room early. I was
pretty excited about that. Thanks for thanks

1061
01:21:14,000 --> 01:21:18,560
for joining in. Happy to be
here, and hello Kevin. Hi.

1062
01:21:18,680 --> 01:21:21,439
Paul was waiting for a chance to
jump in. Haven't chatted to with you

1063
01:21:21,560 --> 01:21:28,239
for a long time? Yes,
since your show? Yes, yes,

1064
01:21:30,479 --> 01:21:34,800
Well let me ask you a question
since you're here and I understand the constraint

1065
01:21:34,840 --> 01:21:38,319
you might be under, But what
do you think of the new season going

1066
01:21:38,720 --> 01:21:46,560
so far off the rails? How's
that for a loaded question? Yeah?

1067
01:21:46,640 --> 01:21:53,960
So I've never heard UFOs being considered
to be on the rail, so I

1068
01:21:54,000 --> 01:22:00,279
think it's going great. Okay,
Hey, Paul, did you have did

1069
01:22:00,279 --> 01:22:05,960
you have a question for Kevin?
Ye? Are you just calling in to

1070
01:22:06,000 --> 01:22:14,439
say hi? Yeah? I respect
both of you guys greatly. I wanted

1071
01:22:14,479 --> 01:22:17,439
to say hello. Well, it's
always it's always great to hear from you.

1072
01:22:17,560 --> 01:22:21,399
And I'm trying to remember what you
said. Um when you were out,

1073
01:22:23,199 --> 01:22:26,000
Um, you said that your dad
had the Van Allen belt? Was

1074
01:22:26,039 --> 01:22:31,800
that? Was that? What it
was? No, I own a Van

1075
01:22:31,960 --> 01:22:38,560
Allen belt. That's right, it
was actually Van Allen's belt. Well,

1076
01:22:38,960 --> 01:22:43,760
so people understand what's going on here. I actually studied astronomy, actually took

1077
01:22:43,800 --> 01:22:46,159
a couple of courses in astronomy at
the University of Iowa, and James Van

1078
01:22:46,199 --> 01:22:50,560
Allen was they had the chairman of
the Department of Physics and astronomy. So

1079
01:22:50,600 --> 01:22:56,600
we had we had him in a
couple of classes talking to us, and

1080
01:22:56,680 --> 01:22:59,600
he made it clear to us that
at the University of Iowa there are no

1081
01:22:59,720 --> 01:23:02,600
Van Allen belts except the ones that
hold up his pants. He's talking about

1082
01:23:02,600 --> 01:23:05,560
the radiation belts around the Earth,
So at the University of Eye with the

1083
01:23:05,760 --> 01:23:13,159
radiation belts of the Van Allen Belts
hold up his pants. So so,

1084
01:23:13,279 --> 01:23:15,439
Paul, you're at work. But
m and do you do a lot of

1085
01:23:15,560 --> 01:23:18,520
since we have you on the line, you actually do quite a bit of

1086
01:23:18,520 --> 01:23:25,479
a consulting four of the TV series, right, yeah, that's right.

1087
01:23:25,720 --> 01:23:32,760
Um, and have had an influence
over how especially my father's portray. Yeah,

1088
01:23:32,800 --> 01:23:36,399
and so far, so good.
You're you're okay with the Um,

1089
01:23:38,399 --> 01:23:43,600
I know, I do remember our
conversation in last September. You mentioned something

1090
01:23:43,640 --> 01:23:46,439
along the lines where there was one
thing you weren't comfortable with and they actually

1091
01:23:46,520 --> 01:23:53,399
changed it for you. Right,
Yeah, it did. Um. It

1092
01:23:53,479 --> 01:23:58,479
was in an episode sixth of this
season, and um, it was the

1093
01:23:58,560 --> 01:24:02,199
one time where I felt that,
in Kevin's word, things went off the

1094
01:24:02,399 --> 01:24:05,920
rails from a personal point of view, and they were very sensitive to that

1095
01:24:06,000 --> 01:24:11,520
and they did make the changes.
Yeah, that's good. That's good.

1096
01:24:12,720 --> 01:24:15,279
Well, great to hear from you, Paul as always, and I'd love

1097
01:24:15,319 --> 01:24:18,079
to get you back on the show
someday again. It was. It was

1098
01:24:18,079 --> 01:24:20,680
a lot of fun. And last
time you were actually on the show,

1099
01:24:20,720 --> 01:24:25,640
you were on with Calvin Parker,
both of you together. That was a

1100
01:24:25,640 --> 01:24:30,479
lot of fun. That's right,
my good friend Calvin. Well, I

1101
01:24:30,479 --> 01:24:32,479
want to say hi, thank you
very much. Take care, all right,

1102
01:24:32,520 --> 01:24:38,319
you two you take care. Thanks, thanks for calling in. All

1103
01:24:38,399 --> 01:24:42,920
right everyone, the lines are open
once again, and that number is eight

1104
01:24:43,039 --> 01:24:46,680
five five four seven two five four
eight three. Kevin M. I know

1105
01:24:46,800 --> 01:24:49,920
again it's not in your your your
book. That just came up, but

1106
01:24:50,000 --> 01:24:56,880
we have Palmer Centers. The question, because of your military helicopter experience,

1107
01:24:57,000 --> 01:25:00,720
wanted to know what your opinion was
on the coin case. And I don't

1108
01:25:00,720 --> 01:25:03,560
know if you and I guess you
have done a lot of research into this

1109
01:25:03,600 --> 01:25:08,720
at one time. But for the
person that's new to UFOs in general,

1110
01:25:08,760 --> 01:25:11,920
can you explain, Um, we
don't have to spend a lot of time

1111
01:25:11,920 --> 01:25:15,399
on it, but what what went
on and what your thoughts are about what

1112
01:25:15,520 --> 01:25:20,520
went on? We had a helicopter
crew playing a Huey helicopter near Mansville,

1113
01:25:20,680 --> 01:25:29,600
Ohio and encounter a UFO object bright
green object had I think red lights on

1114
01:25:29,600 --> 01:25:33,239
one end of it, that sort
of thing. And as they watched it

1115
01:25:33,319 --> 01:25:38,319
come down past the aircraft, circle
around behind, and come in from the

1116
01:25:38,520 --> 01:25:43,800
from the other side. And that's
important to realize that the object actually changed

1117
01:25:44,439 --> 01:25:48,760
it's its direction a number of times. And at one point, UM they

1118
01:25:48,800 --> 01:25:54,039
thought they were going to collide with
this with this object, and it um

1119
01:25:54,479 --> 01:26:00,600
seemed to lift the helicopter up physically, and uh so that I guess they

1120
01:26:00,640 --> 01:26:05,800
were Excuse me, I'm trying to
replay the scenario in my mind here.

1121
01:26:05,840 --> 01:26:12,920
What happened was the object was coming
close to them UM and and they thought

1122
01:26:12,960 --> 01:26:17,359
they were going to collide. Coin
put the collective, which is the control

1123
01:26:17,560 --> 01:26:25,079
that that um controls altitude to the
full down position because he wanted to avoid

1124
01:26:25,119 --> 01:26:29,079
it, and the objects seemed to
lift them up, and he was trying

1125
01:26:29,159 --> 01:26:33,439
to stop the climb so they wouldn't
hit the hit the object, and they

1126
01:26:33,520 --> 01:26:36,920
have the collective down to the full
the collective in the full down position,

1127
01:26:36,960 --> 01:26:40,840
and they continued to climb up.
Eventually there was some kind of a bump

1128
01:26:40,920 --> 01:26:44,920
and the object left and he gain
regained control of the of the aircraft.

1129
01:26:45,800 --> 01:26:53,039
Now, one of the things that
I know that from from my experience as

1130
01:26:53,039 --> 01:26:57,920
a helicopter pilot, UM Philip Class
said, well, maybe maybe Jesse,

1131
01:26:58,039 --> 01:27:02,720
who was the other pilot at the
collective down because he knew what was pulled

1132
01:27:02,800 --> 01:27:06,760
up on the collective, accidentally pulled
up on the collective because he knew they

1133
01:27:06,760 --> 01:27:11,239
were getting close to the ground,
and that was why they were in this

1134
01:27:11,359 --> 01:27:15,239
climb. Even though Coin thought the
collective was pulled down, Jesse had pulled

1135
01:27:15,239 --> 01:27:16,760
it up and that was why they
were in the climb. And I said,

1136
01:27:16,800 --> 01:27:21,079
no, that would never happen because
Coin and Jesse had the same training

1137
01:27:21,119 --> 01:27:27,039
I did. I think Coin he
probably went through as a commissioned officer,

1138
01:27:27,079 --> 01:27:30,399
but about the same time that I
went through flight school. Helicopter flight school,

1139
01:27:30,399 --> 01:27:34,720
and the one thing you were taught
religiously is you've got the controls in

1140
01:27:34,720 --> 01:27:38,560
your hands. If the other pilot
needs to take the controls, he'll say

1141
01:27:38,600 --> 01:27:42,359
I've got it. You feel him
on the controls, you released and say

1142
01:27:42,399 --> 01:27:45,760
you've got it. You don't make
a control change without telling the other pilot

1143
01:27:45,760 --> 01:27:48,520
what you're doing, Otherwise you end
up with the pilots fighting each other for

1144
01:27:48,520 --> 01:27:53,159
the control of the aircraft. So
Jesse would have never pulled up on the

1145
01:27:53,199 --> 01:27:57,840
collective to stop the dissent that he
thought they were in had he not said

1146
01:27:57,920 --> 01:28:01,119
something to it. I was we
had an I didn't experience like somewhat similar

1147
01:28:01,159 --> 01:28:09,720
in Vietnam where I was flying the
air I guess the copilot was flying the

1148
01:28:09,760 --> 01:28:13,600
aircraft and he put it into a
sudden bank and a dive, and I

1149
01:28:13,640 --> 01:28:15,640
started to reach for the controls.
I said, what's the problem. I

1150
01:28:15,680 --> 01:28:17,920
said, he thought we were about
to hit something. But I wasn't going

1151
01:28:17,920 --> 01:28:21,159
to take the controls from him and
jerk him away from from that, because

1152
01:28:21,319 --> 01:28:24,640
then you fight its controls. Had
I taken control, I said, I

1153
01:28:24,640 --> 01:28:26,800
would have said I've got it,
and he would have released the controls.

1154
01:28:27,520 --> 01:28:31,239
Bute, And you do that because
the other pilot may see something that would

1155
01:28:31,239 --> 01:28:38,439
affect the aircraft that you didn't see. So he's taking control to avoid some

1156
01:28:38,520 --> 01:28:41,279
kind of an accent or some kind
of a problem. So that was one

1157
01:28:41,319 --> 01:28:44,039
thing that struck me. And I
know Class said a lot of things in

1158
01:28:44,079 --> 01:28:46,199
his book and when he analyzed the
quincase that I just didn't agree with He

1159
01:28:46,199 --> 01:28:48,760
said at one point, well,
I have a friend who was a helicopter

1160
01:28:48,800 --> 01:28:51,279
pilot and he told me this,
and that I'm thinking, was he an

1161
01:28:51,359 --> 01:28:56,079
army helicopter pilot? What had he
gone through Army helicopter school? Was he

1162
01:28:56,199 --> 01:28:59,159
riding in the back of the aircraft? Was he actually flying the aircraft?

1163
01:28:59,279 --> 01:29:01,840
How many hours that this guy have
didn't tell us anything about it? And

1164
01:29:01,960 --> 01:29:10,399
Class postulated the green color was based
on a strip of green glass at the

1165
01:29:10,439 --> 01:29:15,560
top of the windshield of the helicopter. But they don't have green tinted glass

1166
01:29:15,600 --> 01:29:17,000
at the top of the aircraft.
Those of you who are old enough you

1167
01:29:17,000 --> 01:29:25,000
remember cars used to come with his
green tint on the top of windshields to

1168
01:29:25,199 --> 01:29:28,439
kind of mitigate the sun. But
there are two things. And the Huey

1169
01:29:28,439 --> 01:29:31,079
helicopter right above the pilot's heads that
we called the greenhouses, there were squares

1170
01:29:31,119 --> 01:29:38,600
of green plexiglass, and but it's
right above the helicopter pilot's head. It's

1171
01:29:38,640 --> 01:29:44,680
not out the front. So that
had a coin been looking through the greenhouse

1172
01:29:44,720 --> 01:29:47,319
to see it, he would have
been had his head tilted back, and

1173
01:29:47,359 --> 01:29:53,039
the inclination would have been when you're
looking like that is to pull back on

1174
01:29:53,079 --> 01:29:56,319
the cyclic, which is the other
control than the helicopter. I think it's

1175
01:29:56,319 --> 01:29:59,520
a very good case. I don't
think there's a good explanation for it.

1176
01:29:59,600 --> 01:30:04,359
I think that the things that people
have said about it don't understand helicopter operations.

1177
01:30:04,960 --> 01:30:10,199
They don't understand how what the training
is of the military pilots, and

1178
01:30:10,239 --> 01:30:14,279
they don't really talk to military pilots
about that. I can understand you saying,

1179
01:30:14,319 --> 01:30:16,199
well, Coin said this, that
and the other thing, but getting

1180
01:30:16,199 --> 01:30:20,119
the opinion of another army helicopter pilot
is going to give you a better perspective

1181
01:30:20,199 --> 01:30:26,079
on what what Coin was thinking and
what the other pilot, Jesse was thinking

1182
01:30:26,159 --> 01:30:30,880
as that the event took place.
So do you think it was like lost

1183
01:30:30,920 --> 01:30:34,960
in translation? The reason there's it's
so far off from what should have really

1184
01:30:34,960 --> 01:30:41,640
happened. I don't think there's any
loss in translationalation. I think the problem

1185
01:30:41,720 --> 01:30:45,720
is you've got you've got people with
agendas writing about various cases, and not

1186
01:30:45,880 --> 01:30:48,319
just the Coin case, but a
lot of cases, and they're injecting their

1187
01:30:48,359 --> 01:30:55,039
bias into it. They're giving you
their cherry picking the information that confirms their

1188
01:30:56,319 --> 01:31:00,760
point of view or their belief structure
and they're rejecting information that doesn't and I

1189
01:31:00,840 --> 01:31:05,680
try to look at everything with a
dispassionate eye to see if we can get

1190
01:31:05,720 --> 01:31:11,680
toward the truth. So when I
read things like what class had written about

1191
01:31:11,680 --> 01:31:15,920
this, I know it's I know, it's just a lot of garbage because

1192
01:31:16,039 --> 01:31:19,760
I was trained the same way,
and we were all trained that way,

1193
01:31:20,159 --> 01:31:24,479
So I understood exactly what would have
been going on in the cockpit, and

1194
01:31:24,600 --> 01:31:28,920
Class didn't understand what was going on
in the cockpit. And that's and that

1195
01:31:29,039 --> 01:31:32,640
and that's you know, useful information
that you know, I can bring to

1196
01:31:32,720 --> 01:31:36,279
these kind of cases. I think
somebody trained in physics could be bringing some

1197
01:31:36,479 --> 01:31:40,760
very good information to other sorts of
cases when we talk about that, or

1198
01:31:40,800 --> 01:31:45,279
somebody trained in chemical analysis when we
get landing traces and that sort of thing,

1199
01:31:45,319 --> 01:31:47,680
can bring in their perspective to it
that helps us understand what is happening

1200
01:31:48,279 --> 01:31:53,600
right right um. One of the
cases I wanted to talk about, because

1201
01:31:53,640 --> 01:31:59,119
again melick I mentioned before, I
think it's really fascinating is the nineteen fifty

1202
01:31:59,119 --> 01:32:06,760
two Washington Nationals in July nineteen fifty
two. Now there is the issue that

1203
01:32:06,880 --> 01:32:12,800
happens with that particular those particular I
guess it's more than one day, more

1204
01:32:12,840 --> 01:32:17,399
than one night incidents is that people
will show these pictures of UFOs over Washington

1205
01:32:17,800 --> 01:32:24,279
and that is a false picture because
of the reflections of the lights, the

1206
01:32:24,359 --> 01:32:27,880
street lights or something. Right,
do you know the picture I'm talking about?

1207
01:32:28,000 --> 01:32:30,199
I know the picture talking about.
I'm not sure it's a reflection of

1208
01:32:30,199 --> 01:32:32,880
the street lights, but the pictures
clearly not of flying saucers or UFO.

1209
01:32:33,000 --> 01:32:35,880
Yeah, the pictures, folks.
Yeah, That's what I wanted to get

1210
01:32:35,880 --> 01:32:40,640
across to the listener because a lot
of people will research that see that picture

1211
01:32:40,640 --> 01:32:43,760
and think that's what they were seeing. But can you talk about what actually

1212
01:32:43,760 --> 01:32:47,119
did happen. Well, it kind
of started with guys in the radar room

1213
01:32:47,159 --> 01:32:53,199
at Washington National Airport which is now
Reagan National Airport, in seeing these blips

1214
01:32:53,319 --> 01:32:56,760
on the radar screen and they're acting
not the way normal aircraft do. They

1215
01:32:57,119 --> 01:33:00,520
sometimes are moving very slowly, sometimes
an acceler I think one of the calculations

1216
01:33:00,520 --> 01:33:04,680
the seven thousand miles an hour.
So they're watching, they're they're communicating with

1217
01:33:04,800 --> 01:33:12,279
the air or out traffic, air
traffic control or radars, and they're they're

1218
01:33:12,399 --> 01:33:15,840
talking to the guys at Andrew's Air
Force Base in their control room, their

1219
01:33:15,920 --> 01:33:18,640
radar room, and at one point, you know, they're seeing the same

1220
01:33:18,680 --> 01:33:25,319
objects on three separate radars. So
if it's a malfunction of the radars at

1221
01:33:25,319 --> 01:33:29,399
Washington National, well you're not going
to have the same malfunction at the other

1222
01:33:29,560 --> 01:33:31,920
radar facilities. And they checked the
radars and did the kind of thing,

1223
01:33:32,199 --> 01:33:35,199
the basic checks, and they can
find no fault with the radars. They

1224
01:33:35,239 --> 01:33:42,239
eventually called for air intercepts and they
ladged. They launched fighter planes to come

1225
01:33:42,239 --> 01:33:45,359
and check the area, and what
they said was interesting. Both um Al

1226
01:33:45,520 --> 01:33:49,560
Chop and doing fourne who were in
the radar room the second night told me

1227
01:33:49,600 --> 01:33:54,520
the same thing, which was that
when the fighters appeared on the screens,

1228
01:33:54,560 --> 01:33:59,920
all the UFOs disappeared as if they
were cloaking themselves or running away and hiding.

1229
01:34:00,600 --> 01:34:05,119
And when the fighters disappeared them the
blips came back. There was one

1230
01:34:05,159 --> 01:34:11,600
point where a fighter pilot was talking
about he was trying to intercept it and

1231
01:34:11,640 --> 01:34:19,760
got surrounded by these lights. You
never saw whoops. I don't know what

1232
01:34:19,800 --> 01:34:27,560
happened. The lights here you are
and uh they said that, uh you

1233
01:34:28,239 --> 01:34:30,960
fro you froze for a minute.
We couldn't hear you talking. Oh I

1234
01:34:30,000 --> 01:34:34,039
got a I got a connection lost. Apparently we got it back. Yes,

1235
01:34:34,119 --> 01:34:39,119
we do, luckily, and we
while we while we're taking this little

1236
01:34:39,399 --> 01:34:41,359
just to let you know, we
do have a caller on the line.

1237
01:34:41,640 --> 01:34:45,439
So well finished the thought ahead.
Yes, so we had the one where

1238
01:34:45,479 --> 01:34:49,119
the fighter plane was surrounded by the
lights, but there was another intercept where

1239
01:34:49,119 --> 01:34:53,000
they actually got a radar lock on
one of the targets from the aircraft.

1240
01:34:53,079 --> 01:34:56,359
So now we got four separate radars
involved in the sighting. So it's a

1241
01:34:56,439 --> 01:34:59,560
very good sighting. The air Force
set it was temperature inversions. End of

1242
01:34:59,600 --> 01:35:01,680
story. Don't need to talk about
it anymore. But if you take a

1243
01:35:01,720 --> 01:35:06,520
look at the analysis in the book, you'll see where that explanation seems to

1244
01:35:06,560 --> 01:35:11,800
fall apart. Yeah, yeah,
I think that's a real fascinating That whole

1245
01:35:11,800 --> 01:35:16,439
thing is so fascinating and the location
of it and all we have Steve calling

1246
01:35:16,520 --> 01:35:20,880
from Oregon. Welcome to the show
is Steve. Hey, guys, a

1247
01:35:20,880 --> 01:35:29,239
good show. I'm good. A
little feedback. My question is on Roswell,

1248
01:35:30,600 --> 01:35:33,560
did you hear me? Okay,
yeah, we hear you. Okay,

1249
01:35:33,880 --> 01:35:39,600
on Roswell, there seems like there's
only one real question, and that

1250
01:35:39,840 --> 01:35:45,520
is why did the captain release the
memo to the press. What's the best

1251
01:35:45,600 --> 01:35:50,039
answer Kevin's ever gotten as to why
the captain release the memo to the press.

1252
01:35:50,680 --> 01:35:55,279
That wasn't It wasn't a captain.
It was the base commander, Colonel

1253
01:35:55,279 --> 01:35:59,119
Blanchard who issued the press release.
He did, he did it. I

1254
01:35:59,199 --> 01:36:02,359
have never fur out why he did
that what Walter HoTT told me. And

1255
01:36:02,399 --> 01:36:06,079
Walter hot was the public affairs officer
at the time, and he was the

1256
01:36:06,119 --> 01:36:10,399
one that took the information from Colonel
Blanchard and then walked it to the various

1257
01:36:10,399 --> 01:36:15,520
media that Colonel Blanchard was attempting to
explain what the UFOs were or trying to

1258
01:36:15,560 --> 01:36:21,279
try to tone down some of the
discussion about flying saucers at the time,

1259
01:36:21,760 --> 01:36:28,279
which basically really makes no sense.
I don't know a real good reason why

1260
01:36:28,479 --> 01:36:31,600
they would have issued the press release. It just doesn't make any sense to

1261
01:36:31,640 --> 01:36:36,000
me. It um it went to
the four media in Roswell, and maybe

1262
01:36:36,000 --> 01:36:41,760
Blanchard didn't realize it was going to
go out over the very the ape and

1263
01:36:41,840 --> 01:36:45,920
the UPI wires so it would become
national news. Maybe he was just trying

1264
01:36:45,920 --> 01:36:49,680
to calm things down in the Roswell
area. Didn't realize how far it would

1265
01:36:49,800 --> 01:36:56,079
would spread or how quickly it would
spread. But both Um, George Walsh

1266
01:36:56,119 --> 01:37:05,520
and and and and and Frank Joyce
Frank Joyce at the two radio stations immediately

1267
01:37:05,720 --> 01:37:10,560
put it on the wire. Walsh
got it out first on the on his

1268
01:37:10,880 --> 01:37:15,079
wire service because he had a connection
right there in his office, and Joyce

1269
01:37:15,119 --> 01:37:19,800
had to call the office in Albuquerque
to have it sent out. Um.

1270
01:37:19,840 --> 01:37:23,880
But that was how it got out
as those two guys put it, put

1271
01:37:23,920 --> 01:37:28,279
it on the wire. And maybe
Blanchard didn't expect that to happen. But

1272
01:37:28,359 --> 01:37:30,039
I don't have a good answer for
that question. I really don't. I

1273
01:37:30,039 --> 01:37:34,279
would like to. I would have
liked to add Blanger that question. Yeah,

1274
01:37:34,399 --> 01:37:38,720
I've I've brought that up a number
of times. Hang on to see

1275
01:37:38,840 --> 01:37:40,760
just for a second. I've brought
that up a number of times on the

1276
01:37:40,800 --> 01:37:44,399
show. You know, why,
um, why would it come out at

1277
01:37:44,439 --> 01:37:47,880
all? They never had to say
basically anything, And you know, for

1278
01:37:47,920 --> 01:37:53,159
them to say there was a flying
saucer, uh, doesn't make any sense.

1279
01:37:53,199 --> 01:37:55,640
I mean, if if they wanted
to hide it, they could have

1280
01:37:55,680 --> 01:38:00,000
said you know weather balloon in the
beginning, it's about go ahead, Steve.

1281
01:38:03,159 --> 01:38:06,439
Now you you said what I wanted
to say. It just never made

1282
01:38:06,479 --> 01:38:13,600
any sense. Yeah, I agree, never made any sense. But we

1283
01:38:13,640 --> 01:38:16,319
don't have a good explanation for what
fell at Roswell either. We all agree

1284
01:38:16,359 --> 01:38:20,960
something fell, but there's no good
explanation for what it was. The Project

1285
01:38:21,000 --> 01:38:28,720
mobile explanation simply doesn't work because the
leader of the project in ab Alama Gordo

1286
01:38:28,760 --> 01:38:31,720
at hollam An Air Force Base,
Ala Army Airfield at the time, Um

1287
01:38:32,520 --> 01:38:36,159
wrote right in his field notes there
was no flight number four. End of

1288
01:38:36,239 --> 01:38:42,479
story. So mogil is gone in
that sense, and I've never found anything

1289
01:38:42,479 --> 01:38:45,600
else to h to explain what the
debris would be. So there there we

1290
01:38:45,640 --> 01:38:49,840
are. Yeah, still okay,
all right, it's great. So all

1291
01:38:49,920 --> 01:38:54,479
right, hey, thanks for the
call, Steve. All Right, So

1292
01:38:54,560 --> 01:38:58,199
if someone wanted to call, we
have about four or four minutes or so

1293
01:38:58,399 --> 01:39:00,720
left, and but that sit so
it'd have to be a short call on

1294
01:39:00,800 --> 01:39:06,119
that number is eight five five four
seven two five four eight three, and

1295
01:39:06,960 --> 01:39:13,239
looks like we might get one more
call. Yep, hang in. We

1296
01:39:13,319 --> 01:39:18,960
have someone calling in right now,
and I believe it's Dave. It looks

1297
01:39:18,960 --> 01:39:23,720
like his phone number, the Dave
alopment that was in the in the chat

1298
01:39:23,800 --> 01:39:30,000
room. Nope, it's not okay, we have so Kevin, while I'm

1299
01:39:30,000 --> 01:39:36,119
waiting for this to be cleared,
can you tell me how someone can find

1300
01:39:36,119 --> 01:39:41,159
your book? It's on Amazon right, Oh, it's on Amazon. Absolutely.

1301
01:39:41,199 --> 01:39:43,840
I'm not sure how far we're going
to get distributed in the bookstores in

1302
01:39:43,880 --> 01:39:46,680
the day's environment, they may not
matter very much. But it is available

1303
01:39:46,680 --> 01:39:50,880
at Amazon, Amazon dot com.
It's the best of Project Bluebook comes from

1304
01:39:50,920 --> 01:39:56,960
Flying disc Press. That's Philip Mantle, right, Philip Mantels, Philip Mantels

1305
01:39:57,199 --> 01:40:01,800
m YEP publishing a house and we
worked on this for a couple of years

1306
01:40:01,800 --> 01:40:06,880
putting putting it together. And I've
tried to put a number of documents in

1307
01:40:06,920 --> 01:40:10,880
the book so you can see what
the what the Air Force had to say

1308
01:40:11,000 --> 01:40:14,159
and see where the evidence takes us. And as I said, I brought

1309
01:40:14,159 --> 01:40:18,880
in information from beyond the end of
Project Bluebook that affects the specific case.

1310
01:40:18,960 --> 01:40:21,680
We're talking about information that the Air
Force wouldn't have had at the time,

1311
01:40:21,720 --> 01:40:28,520
and information has been gathered long after
the events. Right, we have Brett

1312
01:40:29,159 --> 01:40:30,880
Brett Clark calling from Tennessee. Welcome
to the show, Brett. You have

1313
01:40:30,920 --> 01:40:33,439
a question for our guests. We
only have a couple of minutes left.

1314
01:40:35,199 --> 01:40:41,119
Oh yeah, thanks. I'd like
to thank doctor Randall for his work,

1315
01:40:41,239 --> 01:40:46,119
his service, and just a couple
of questions. One, if you anything's

1316
01:40:46,159 --> 01:40:54,399
transpired from the It was like a
helicopter incident with the police chopper in Wales,

1317
01:40:54,640 --> 01:41:00,119
I believe back in two and sixteen. And the other question is what

1318
01:41:00,520 --> 01:41:06,439
chopper has the best glider ratio?
Appreciate it? Thank you all right.

1319
01:41:06,720 --> 01:41:12,720
I have no knowledge of a helicopter
incident in Wales. I may have read

1320
01:41:12,760 --> 01:41:15,760
it, I don't. I don't
remember anything about it. I'm sure about

1321
01:41:15,760 --> 01:41:21,520
the glide ratio. What you do
is if the engine fails um, there's

1322
01:41:21,520 --> 01:41:28,560
what's called a freewheeling clutch between the
engine in the in the rotorhead and that

1323
01:41:28,680 --> 01:41:32,199
disengages. So you as you as
you are falling out of the sky the

1324
01:41:32,279 --> 01:41:36,880
air continue continue to spin the rotor
blades and as you get close to the

1325
01:41:36,920 --> 01:41:41,159
ground you do what to call flare
out, So you kind of pull back

1326
01:41:41,199 --> 01:41:44,640
on the on the cyclic and you
lift the nose and then you start bringing

1327
01:41:44,720 --> 01:41:48,239
up the collective and that changes the
pitch of the rotor blades and it bites

1328
01:41:48,319 --> 01:41:51,199
the air so that you begin to
slow down, and if you do it

1329
01:41:51,319 --> 01:41:55,600
right, you level the skids out
at about three feet and then you can

1330
01:41:55,600 --> 01:41:59,920
cushion it on down and you land. And every every helicopter has the capabil

1331
01:42:00,359 --> 01:42:02,800
doing that. I don't know which
one would glide the best. I would

1332
01:42:02,840 --> 01:42:05,560
imagine they all glide pretty much the
same. Once the engine quits, you're

1333
01:42:05,560 --> 01:42:10,359
pretty much fallen out of the sky. That's right. That was when I

1334
01:42:10,399 --> 01:42:13,840
had a conversation with the helicopter pilot
that I know. That was one of

1335
01:42:13,840 --> 01:42:15,279
the questions I had, you know, to fall like a rock, and

1336
01:42:15,359 --> 01:42:19,199
he basically explained what you just did. And I don't know if you know

1337
01:42:19,279 --> 01:42:21,960
anyone that's ever put that to a
test, do you? Oh? I

1338
01:42:23,039 --> 01:42:26,640
have you have? Oh? Yeah, I had an engine failure two thousand

1339
01:42:26,680 --> 01:42:30,479
feet. Oh my god. And
the thing that always struck me about that.

1340
01:42:30,560 --> 01:42:36,159
So the Army training was so good. I initiated the emergency procedures immediately

1341
01:42:36,520 --> 01:42:41,039
without even thinking about them. And
then as I got everything set up and

1342
01:42:41,039 --> 01:42:44,920
I realized we're going down, and
I made the Mayday call. I began

1343
01:42:44,960 --> 01:42:46,359
to physically think about, well,
I got to do this, this and

1344
01:42:46,359 --> 01:42:49,479
this, and I'd already done it
automatically and I put it down under ice

1345
01:42:49,479 --> 01:42:54,239
Patty didn't do any damage to the
aircraft. Had a guy on board who

1346
01:42:54,319 --> 01:42:59,119
was going to d Rose leave Vietnam
in about four days and he just wanted

1347
01:42:59,119 --> 01:43:00,520
to go for a helicopter ride and
I said, sure, pop on board

1348
01:43:00,560 --> 01:43:02,960
if you want to. Guys doing
what we call the ash and Trash mission

1349
01:43:02,960 --> 01:43:08,159
where we flew people and equipment around
it. We had a mission every day.

1350
01:43:08,479 --> 01:43:11,720
One aircraft was detailed to do that
sort of thing if you weren't with

1351
01:43:11,720 --> 01:43:14,159
the flight, and that was my
day to do it. And the engine

1352
01:43:14,199 --> 01:43:16,600
quit at about two thousand feet.
Oh my god. Well, Kevin,

1353
01:43:16,640 --> 01:43:19,199
that's it for the show. I
want to thank you so much. We

1354
01:43:19,239 --> 01:43:21,640
had someone trying to call in just
now. I'm sorry we can't take your

1355
01:43:21,640 --> 01:43:25,960
call. But thanks so much,
Kevin, and as always, it's it's

1356
01:43:26,000 --> 01:43:30,199
always a great time talking to you. And you can catch your blog at

1357
01:43:30,279 --> 01:43:36,439
Say Your Say Your Radio Vote www. Kevin randoldot blogspot dot com. And

1358
01:43:36,520 --> 01:43:41,079
the book The Best Project Bluebook.
Go buy copies of it and make me

1359
01:43:41,199 --> 01:43:45,840
rich. No what won't work that
way by copies. Yeah, get your

1360
01:43:45,840 --> 01:43:48,399
thirty two cents, all right,
all right, Kevin, take care,

1361
01:43:48,520 --> 01:43:51,279
all right everyone. So that's it
for the show. Thank you so much

1362
01:43:51,279 --> 01:43:56,479
for listening, and remember to stay
safe out there. We're going to be

1363
01:43:56,479 --> 01:44:00,319
back next week with Leslie Kane and
I do believe we're gonna be talking to

1364
01:44:00,520 --> 01:44:04,520
someone about the new series on the
Skinwalker Ranch, so make sure you check

1365
01:44:04,560 --> 01:44:09,479
that out on our blog over at
podcast UFO. And thank you for all

1366
01:44:09,479 --> 01:44:12,720
the supporters, and thank you every
single listener. Have a good night,

1367
01:44:12,760 --> 01:44:27,640
and remember to keep your eyes to
the sky.