Hello, and welcome to the show. Hi. Martin willis your host.
And you know, it's funny when I a lot of times I'll mention our
guests, you know, coming up the following week. Happens a lot and
it ends up being a different guest, so you never really know who you're
going to have. We have the great Kevin Randall on tonight. I'm really
excited about that. Always fun talking with him. He's a no nonsense type
of guy. And so next week we're supposed to have Les lu Chanon and
someone from the new Skinwalker History Channel series. I'm not sure. I don't
have that information and front of me right now. So if you want to
know who we're having as a guest for sure, well unless something happens the
day off, all you have to do is go over to podcast ufo dot
com and you will see their right at the top right hand side, there
is a an email mailing list. All you have to do is drop your
email on that and it's called a weekly newsletter and click sign up and then
you will get a link to activate in your mailbox. So that's all you
have to do if you want to find out what's going on, and also
we put our blogs in there as well, and this week's blog by Charles
Lear, who writes for us every week does a great job as UFOs and
the predicted death of Frank Edwards interesting kind of mystery situation about an interesting case,
and we're going to be talking about a lot of interesting case tonight.
I do want to say I hope everyone out there is all my good listeners
are are healthy and staying safe, and we are going to be talking about
UFOs and a great book, the Best of Project Blue Book. Now,
Kevin, I don't have it in front of me, but I'm gonna say
I think, yes, I do have an in front of me. Kevin
has published a hunt. He has written one hundred and twenty five books.
Can you believe that? I mean, that's just amazing. And twenty seven
of UFO books were published. As far as I know, I think I
have that right. And so Kevin, welcome to the show. Well,
thank you, good to be here. And and you're you know you've done
this. I think this is the second time you have done this. Like
Kevin, my guest is not going to work out with my guests, can
you help me? And you've been very gracious so I don't want you to
only come on like that, but I think this is the second time you've
done that for me. I think it is. Yes, yeah, and
I just want to let you go. Somebody's got to rescue you. Yeah,
that's right. Um. Anyway, I've always appreciated your work, and
I've said this before. Um, you're a blog that you have, Um,
you really look into things. And sometimes if I'm wondering about a case
I'm not really certain about it, I'll go on your blog and sure enough,
there it is you've written about. Have you ever counted how many things
you've written about on that blog? There's over a thousand postings. A thousand
postings. So if you want to get what I think is the real good
source of what's going on, Kevin, how is what is the blog?
It's Kevin Randall um dot blogspot dot com. Right, what I'm what I'm
doing my radio show. I always say www. Kevin Randall dot blogspot dot
com. Hey, you got it down. But I think if you just
tape type my name in there, the first thing that comes in your search
engine, but the first thing that comes up is the blog. Yeah,
yeah, and the second and this I can't believe. The second thing that
comes up is Kevin Randall's net worth. I'm on one of those celebrity pages
as a net worth, and I can tell you from my own experience because
my net worth, according to Mills Pages, is somewhere between one hundred thousand
and one hundred and thirty four million dollars. They keep changing it daily.
It's completely and totally inaccurate. I will confess that it is between one hundred
thousand and one hundred and thirty four million. Well, that's always wishing thirty
four million. Yeah, although we don't really know these days right now.
That could be tricky, but anyway, yeah, it Isn't there a celebrity
name? Kevin Randall said, they're mixing you up with that, there's something
like that. Is there a celebrity? No, no, no, it's
it's me. Because one of the pictures up there is of me at the
podium at the Moufon conference. I got information that relates directly to me,
so it is it is me that's there. Yeah. Yeah, I just
happened to catch just the first opening part of one of your shows that you
do and with Kurt Collins. I really I've always liked Kurt Collins, and
he's going to be on the show, I think in another couple of months.
Here, well months, here are you hearing feedback? Hearing feedback?
I have some feedback coming through here anyway, so it stopped. I heard
you say right off the bat that you watched Project blue Book on the History
Channel, and you said, you don't have any reason why they call it
that name. Well, the first season they were dealing with blue Book stuff,
and they were dealing with blue Book cases. Yeah, but the last
episode was there, well one more episode they were Skinwalker Ranch, which is
completely and totally bogus, and I think it was a set up the series
that's coming up. And then the last episode they had a Russian airplane crash
in Candidate and they were on the scene to defuse an atomic bomb. And
it has nothing to do with Project blue Book. Their office, they're they're
doing a classified project in nineteen fifty two, when this program is allegedly set,
they're dealing with classified materials. It's an office where they deal with classified
Yet there's big windows in the doors. There's windows all over the place.
They're not taped up, they're not closed, they're stuff all over the walls
and their secretary, their clerk, clerk typist. She's like an airman basic.
She has no stripes whatsoever. I cannot believe you've got a classified project
and you've got someone who has been in the Air Force probably about a year.
They would have had a secretary with a little bit more rank. She
would have she would have had to have a clearance, she would have had
to have a clear It's not all enlisted personnel have clearances, so you know,
they're all kinds of things like that. They just kind of annoyed me.
Last the last year they did okay, but this year it's just gone
completely off the rails. Now. When I spoke to Alan Heineck's son,
Um God missing his yeau, Paul, Paul said that, um, you
know, they review basically the whole season with him, and he did have
he did have an objection. And but he said he had an objection had
something to do with his mother or no, it had something. No,
that was the first season. The second season had something to do with something
that Jay Allan Heineck supposedly was going to say. And he said, no,
you can't cross that line. You got to change that. And but
but I guess he. You know, he's one of the consultants of the
of the series. I interviewed him on my program as well, and at
the same impression that he was delighted with the series, that there were really
any big objections to it, even though a lot of it is complete and
total fantasy, you know, jail and flying in airplanes and they're running around
all over the country with the chief of Project Blue Book whose name and this
program is Quinn and getting in fist fights and all kinds of nonsense. I
just have no I just cannot see Jail and Heinek getting into a fist fight
with anybody. Yeah, yeah, you do you think that it's it kind
of hurts the whole situation, you know of people that are just starting to
um, you know, think that this, you know, look into this
topic and think that you know, what they're watching is all based on true
true stories. And I mean I would have said last year, it really
doesn't hurt all that much because they do deal with the cases and then there's
little vignettes at the end that gives you kind of the real information about the
case. Yeah, when they did m Kelly Hopkins Villion with a farmhouse was
invaded by the alien creatures. They kind of dropped the ball on that one
because if you, well, if you've studied the case, you know that
although the family was actually shooting at the aliens and knocking them down, they
get up and run off. But when they showed it on the TV show,
they had bullet holes all throughout the house. These people weren't that stupid.
They weren't shooting holes in their own house, shooting out the windows dummies,
you know. And they had but they had a lynch mob, the
the farmers with their torches and their pitchforks storming the nineteen fifty two sighting with
Catherine May and those people. The and the name I cannot believe the name
actually escapes me at the moment September of nineteen fifty two, September twelfth,
the West Virginia Case. Yeah, well, you know, I think I
think the show is you know, it's made for entertainment, but um,
it's also uh you know, I think it's it's interesting. I haven't really
watched a lot of it this year. I think I watched the first four
or five episodes, But I really, I really do I did you.
I believe you did interview David O'Leary. No, okay, I I interviewed
Alturo Um. He was the vice senior vice president. I had him on
my show and we talked about the program and things like that. He since
moved on to a bigger and better job. Interestingly, he did send me
a picture when m Robert Friend turned a hundred. Robert Friend had been one
of the um chiefs of Project Bluebook at the end of nine fifty nineteen sixteen,
and he was he was in charge of Project Bluebook, but he was
also a Tuskegee airman. I did not know that until way too late.
I would have loved to talk to him about that aspect of his career.
But the point is Artura had sent me a picture of him and I think
the high Necks and Robert's friend um, which was kind of an interesting thing.
I put the picture up on my blog so people can see it.
But you know, we're doing entertainment, and I just don't understand Hollywood in
that respect. Take the customer massacre, they always have to jazz it up
with something. I'm thinking, you've got an amazing story here, you don't
need to embellish it with Hollywood nonsense. The same thing with the first movie
on Midway that they did in the nineteen seventies. They had that story that
Charlton Heston's son was running around with a Japanese woman who had been who was
involved in the interments. Her family had been interred when they rounded up the
Japanese Japanese Americans, and they shouldn't have done it, and they got all
into that nonsensical aspect of it, which is just not germane to the story
of Midway. And one of the important things that they really kind of glossed
over was the fact that we were reading the Japanese codes, that we had
broken the codes, and the Japanese were of the mindset that a code created
by the Japanese would be near perfect, and we occidentals would be unable to
crack this code. And of course they had been able to do it,
and that was how we knew that they were going to attack Midway and had
our forces there to repel that assault. And that, to me isn't fascinating
part of the story as well. But they interject this love story there for
no reason other than, I guess, to condemn the United States for rounding
the Japanese Japanese Americans, I should say up after the attack on Pearl Harbor.
You can understand the mindset, you can understand what they were thinking.
It was completely wrong. And what's always glossed over is German Americans and Italian
Americans were also put in internment camps, not in the numbers of the Japanese,
but they also were interred, and that's never brought up either. So
the real point is you've got something that's I think fascinating in and of itself,
and they've always got to do something to jazz it up and take it
away from the real story. And when they say it's based on real facts
in today's world, they've gone completely and totally off the rails. And I
don't know what other than there was a Project Bluebook and Jalen Heinich was a
real guy. I'm not sure what they're doing. Well, you know,
I you know, it's not really much to argue with UM as far as
that goes, because you know, you're not the only one that has said
almost exactly the same thing. UM, Like, there is already so much
to it. Why why does it have to be embellished? I've had that
exact phrase, uh, you know, quoted on this show before. And
I I understand kind of both sides of this. I understand you have to
try to make something really you know, entertaining to you know, as far
as the characters and and what happens to you know, grab the people and
get them to keep coming back every week to see, you know, what's
next. But um, you know, I get both sides of it,
really, you know, well, I would say this. You got movies
today that have no plot, no character development. All they're doing is high
speed chases and explosions. Let's drive over there and blow something out. I'm
saying, you write, if you're a good writer and a good storyteller,
this should be fascinating without the embellishments. I've always said that, I think
history should be the most fascinating course that's taught in schools because you're dealing with
real people and real events that you see in the movies. And there's books,
thousands and thousands of books written about it. And yet they managed to
suck the life out of history. When when was the Declaration of Independence signed?
Well on July fourth, seventeen seventy six, Well not really, And
some of the names weren't dependent until what months later, But we don't get
that, and we don't get what what would cause this sort of thing where
we're just busy learning people in dates. We're not learning anything about the persons
or the people involved in that sort of thing. So I don't think you
need the embellishment. But it's gotten into lazy storytelling. Well what interests people,
Well, we want to bring in the teenage boys, and they like
to see stuff blow up. If you remember, remember that one show well
blowed up real good? Yeah that was Stripes, I think, right,
Yeah, maybe I was thinking of the Great White North on SETV. But
but if you remember MythBusters, they were always blowing stuff up. They didn't
get it up it. Well, let's add let's add two tons of dynamite
and see if it'll blow up. Now. Oh I see, uh,
I see. We have Dave Altman um in the chat room and he just
wrote um and he has a UM. Let's see, he's an event a
publicist for one of the people in Project blue Book. That's his uh what
he does, and it says it allows regular people to get interested in the
subject. It's like the New X Files, you know, that's that's kind
of his his take on why uh Project Blue Book does what it does.
I have I have no objection to that. What I'm saying simply is that
you don't need to and bellish it with a lot of Hollywood nonsense, you
know, to me, it just smacks of poor writing. I mean,
I spotted a flaw in the program that I thought nobody else in the world
would have spotted. I mean, we're dealing with nineteen fifty two and one
of the generals, Neil mcdunnah, one of my favorite actors, is Wiring
an Air Force Commendation medal and his ribbons that wasn't created until nineteen fifty eight.
Yeah, Erico terrible. I'm terrible like that myself. I look at
sets, and I'm always looking at sets and say, hmmm, nineteen when
is that supposed to take place in nineteen sixty two? Well, you know
that's a you know that didn't come out until nineteen sixty nine, or you
know, the Lava Land or whatever it is. And I haven't figured out
why they've got two four star generals running around in this program as sort of
sort of overseeing the whole thing. We got two four star generals running around.
I would maybe buy one brigadier general, but you know two four star
generals who are deeply involved. I don't think so. And you can tell
how important Project blue Book became in fifty two. It was very important,
It's no doubt about it. And things evolved after the roberts A panel nineteen
fifty two over nineteen fifty three, and then you started bringing in people to
lead it who are anti alien, anti UFO type people. And then and
it was sort of a dead end job. Well, what are you going
to do with this guy? Well, he's got a couple more years on
his career. He's not going anywhere giving Project blue Book. And it's kind
of a dead end career for an Air Force officer to be put in charge
of Project blue Book. You know, it's like you'll be in charge of
the supply depot in Bakersfield, California, accounting mess mess trays or forks or
something. I mean, it was kind of a dead end job, and
you knew if you were that. I always felt that way that Hector Quintinella,
who was the last chief of Project blue Book. I mean he came
there as a captain and he just stayed forever, and he eventually retired as
lieutenant colonel, so he got his promotions on time. But I think he
was bitter and reading his book and some of the things he said, I
think he was just bitter about being stuck in that dead end job and he
knew what they were doing to him. The guy was a trained physicist,
you know, but his name was Hector Quintinella, and he was Mexican American,
and so they just sort of pushed him to the side, and that
was what they did with him, and I was I felt kind of bad
for him because of that. Wow. Yeah. Now in this book,
and again the title is at the best of Project blue Book, were you
actually did you actually review the files themselves? Because I know a lot of
them are available. I have had since the mid nineteen nineties a complete set
of the Project Blue Book files on microfilm. Wow, and then of course
now a lot of I now have a complete set. Well, it's not
I don't think it's commplete, but the vest majority at the site of the
block Project bluebooks on a one terrified hard drive. I can carry Project Bluebook
around in my pocket, which always stuns me. But yes, I had
complete access to the Project Bluebook files, and so I would compare what was
on what I had digitally with what was originally in microfilm. What happened was
back in nineteen seventy six when I was going to the University of Iowa.
I actually was before that. I was an Air Force ROTC. And the
newsletter came out and said that the Project Bluebook files are now available for scrutiny
at they've been to be classified. They're available for scrutiny at Maxwell Air Force
Base. And I went to college and what I called my Saga scholarship.
Saga was a men's magazine from the nineteen fifties and sixties. You know,
it wasn't like Playboy. It was just featured stories that were interest to men,
and they would always run a UFO article once a month, and then
then they developed the Sagau Fall Report, and it was all UFOs. And
I would periodically call the editor. Sometimes he'd call me back and sometimes he
wouldn't. Well, I discovered that I that the Project Bluebook files were AVAY
level. So I called the editor and they said, well, can we
take a mess each as they always did, and I said yes, tell
them I can get the Project Bluebook files, and the editor didn't call me.
The managing at her called instead, and he starts telling me what to
look for. I said, well, I guess we got an assignment,
don't we. And so a friend of mine, Bob Cornette, and I
went down to the project, went down to National Air Force Space and podded
through the files. At that time, this was before they were all redacted,
and the first thing we did was go to the index and we wrote
down the names of everybody who was The index had the date of the signing,
the witnesses, the location, and the conclusion that was drawn out.
So we went through the all undidentified. So we wrote down all of that
with the names so we could put the names back in. They really didn't
do a good job of redacting the names. The point being as yes,
I had access to the Project Bluebook files and I've been playing with them since
the mid nineteen seventies. And if I opened a door in my cabinets back
there, I could show you the microfilm There was I think it's ninety six
rolls of microfilm, and you could purchase them one at a time, and
I would purchase them as I needed. So I ended up with in a
complete set. So yes, I went through the Project Bluebook files. So
what I did was I pulled up the project card that you would see on
the first thing you would see in the file, and that is at the
top of the page with that sighting on it, so you can read what
the Air Force said on the project card, and then I detailed the sighting
as the Air Force investigated it. But I had access to information the Air
Force didn't have, which simply is meaning that you know if once Project Bluebook
closed, they didn't update the files or do anything. And I was able
to do that. I was able to talk to witnesses who could give me
more information or I could access additional information that the Air Force didn't have access
to at the time. So I brought all of that into play as well.
What happened afterwards, What did what happened to the witnesses? I talked
to witnesses that were involved in some of this, for example, the Washington
National sightings from nineteen fifty two, what's these sightings on radar over Washington National
Airport in two secretive Saturday nights in July, and I was able to talk
to al Chop and Dewey fourn A, who were in the radar room on
the second night. So I talked to I talked to them in the nineteen
nineties, but you know, I asked the questions I wanted to ask and
got the information. So I was able to plug that information into the book.
Stuff that didn't make it in the Project Bluebook files. That you know,
their their memories and their reaction to what isn't in the Project Bluebook files.
And I was able to gather that information or use that information as I
gathered it, you know, some twenty years ago. So that was what
the idea was. Here is some of these great stories. Here is Here
are the some of the interviews I conducted with people long after the events.
Here are some photographs Leveland Texas. For example, I knew where the various
sites were that the people saw the UFO that landed in level Land, Texas.
So I was able to go to those sites. And here's a photograph
of what the site looks like at least today. So you get an idea
of how desolate it really was out there. I mean, one of the
things were going on, but Don Burns and for example, a guy living
in Roswell New Mexico, by coincidence, had studied the leveland case. He
was able to interview the daughter and the widow of the sheriff from level Land,
and he learned that the sheriff had been told not to talk about the
sighting and he wouldn't do it. But it appears that the got a lot
closer to the UFO when he went out looking for it, and then had
been in the Project Bluebook files that suggests he was nine hundred yards away or
something like that. Talking to them, the family said, yeah, he
got a lot closer, And I was able to find a newspaper article by
coincidence from the time frame that wasn't in the Project Bluebook files that said where
he was quoted to saying he got within two hundred yards of it, he
was much much closer, and so that confirmed what the family said. So
we've got a contemporary quote from a newspaper that confirmed what the family was saying,
you know, fifty years later or forty five years later or whatever it
was when Don talked to them. But I was able to bring all of
that information to play in the book as well. So it's not just what
the Air Force had to say. It's additional information that I was able to
gather along after Project blue Book closed and and appended to that, and he
says, well, here's where we go today and here's what we about it
today. I like that that approach is really really great. We're a little
past our break. We got to go into break, so hang in everyone,
we'll be right back right after these messages. All right, welcome back
to the show. My guest tonight is Kevin Randall, and we were talking
about the level of Texas case just before we went on break. However,
Kevin, I wanted to tell you guess who's in the chat room. We
have Shane Ryan in the chat room. He just said, Hi, he
remembers having dinner with you in Toronto. Shane Ryan from Australia. Yeah,
Australia, Australia. Yeah. The Westall case we've had. We had Shane
on I don't know, maybe a month or two ago. That was back
when they were having the fires down there and and but no, it's good
to see him. He's putting up all kinds of information on the chat room
for everyone, which is great. So so let's get getting back into your
research. I wanted to find doubt you said that you saw these files unredacted,
and you know a lot of times you see I don't know, not
these in particular, but you see things that are really really redacted beyond being
able to recognize what they're talking about. It has nothing to do with just
private information or classified information. I guess what I'm getting at. Did you
see anything really interesting on the unredacted files that are redacted and further files.
The only thing that redacted out of the Project Bluebook files were the names and
the personal information. That's it. Okay, So you would you you would
look at a case and you couldn't follow up on it because the names had
been redacted. But they did a crappy job. And the one that the
one that really cracked me up was they had an interview with Kenneth Arnold,
who's the guy that started this whole thing with his signing a mountaineer. Yeah,
there was a telephone interview with him, and they'd even gone to the
trouble of crossing out his initials, you know, KAA. But across the
front in grease pencil letters that had to be a half an inch high,
it said Arnold. Case kind of gave the whole thing away their pal and
then sometimes there would be newspaper articles appended to the end of the file.
They didn't redact those, so you could put the names back in because they
were not taken out and things like that. And if you read most of
the cases you read, you could find the name. If you read the
case material carefully enough, the names were in there because they would miss somebody's
name and you could figure out who it was. The only thing that we
that I had trouble with is the Lubbock Lights. The first sighting took place
in Albuquerque before it got down to Lubeck. Or they think it's kind of
together. The sidings kind of match, and they had. I was able
to get the name of the husband, both his first and last name,
but most of the newspapers said missus and didn't give her first name. And
it took me about twenty minutes to find her real first name. It wasn't
in the files. I had to go online to do it. And that's
the other thing about the Internet. You can usually find what you want.
I was able to find her first name so I could plug it into the
story, but that was what they had redacted from that and The other thing
is you heard, I think repeatedly there were no classified files and Project Bluebook
or things like that. They would, especially in the sixty you were saying,
we have no classified information. When you go through the files and you
could see the classification marks on it, sometimes they're blacked out and heavy black
magic marker, so you can't see them, but you know, if it's
a really long black smudge, well that was confidential, and if it's a
sort of smudge, it met secret. But sometimes they just crossed it out
with a single stroke of a pen or something like that, so you could
see that they were classed out they were classified files there. Of course,
I think Rob Mercer from Ohio blundered into the Project Bluebook files. He said
that, and I interviewed him on my program. I think you may have
interviewed him as well. That he was he would look at Craigslist periodically for
used material, and somebody had a box of material up there that had Project
Bluebook stuff in it. So he bought the box, and as he was
going through it he realized it really was Project Bluebook material, and through some
very nice detective work, managed to find the guy who had originally had the
box of material and there was more of it. A guy named Carmen Morano
who was the last technically last officer in charge of Project Bluebook because everybody else
was gone, and he was tearing down the office and even think stuff would
be destroyed and he was going to go through it later, but he just
kept the boxes. And when he moved, he inadvertently left a box behind
and that was how Rob Mercer got his hands on it, because somebody bought
it a garage sale and he had found Morano and he sent more stuff to
and he said, well, you can have it off you want, And
in that was a complete set index of Project Bluebook without the names redacted.
The index is quite I've got the index on printed out from from the microfilm
and it's into loose leaf notebooks, so it's I mean, it's a huge
index. So he's got all that information, but he's got everybody's name in
that, and there's other and a lot of the other material isn't redacted.
So when I was doing stuff on when I was doing my book on so
Coral Encountering the Desert, the lots the moral stuff, he sent me the
entire file from that he had that concluded not only the stuff that was in
the official file, but the unofficial file which they used to brief other people.
Ben Moss and Tony Aziola think it's the classified file. But from what
Carmen Morno told me and from what Rob Mercer told me, what they had
done was the cases that everybody was interested in. They'd created other files so
they could get to them easily and hand him to the reporters or whoever wanted
to look at them. So it's not a secret unofficial file. It's just
an unofficial file. But he sent me all of that stuff, so I
had that I could plug that in and what kind of triggered that? And
I'm off onto the counters in the desert now, which is about the Kora
landing. We triggered that is I'd been and Tony on my program and they
had said they said a couple of times that three people had called into the
police station before Zamora went out, before some more got to the landing site
to tell him about this thing in the sky. And I said, is
that in the police log? Did you look at the police log? And
I never got a satisfactory answer from them on that, so I was looking
the stuff up myself, and going through the file, I found a report
written by Richard Holder, who was an army officer who was there the night
had happened and working with the FBI agent talking to Samara and that stuff.
And he said in his report right there the three people who called into the
police station with reports of this thing flying over so here it's documented from April
twenty four, nineteen sixty four. So you've got the documentation. What stunned
me was nobody followed up on that. When you got the UFO investigators down
there, you got Hynick down there, you got all those people down there,
and the stories out there, and nobody tries to find who these witnesses
are. They didn't leave their names, or the police dispatcher didn't take their
names, and because he just was unimpressed with their stories. But they knew
the flight path. It wouldn't have been hard to find them, given the
size of SoCoRo at that time, but nobody bothered to do that, which
is just one of the great missed opportunities, because you would move the Skoro
case from being a single witness, Lonny Zamora, to multiple witnesses at different
locations as it flew over. We have some documentations to suggest they were out
there, and it would have been really nice to talk to them and get
their impressions of what they had seen. But you know, here we are
nineteen or nineteen, here we are in twenty twenty, not able to leave
our houses, and again we just aren't able to track the people down.
Now, well, well, I do want to talk about some of the
cases, because that's you know, we do get a lot of new listeners
and a lot of times I forget. And speaking of new listeners, I
just found out this is the second show in the road in a Road that
my sister Heidi is watching. So high Heidi, I'm glad, she's glad
she's watching. She's a wonderful artist, by the way, and she's starting
to make some art. We're going to actually put that up on the website
coming up soon hopefully, but she's very talented. Anyway, getting two cases,
I saw you know you talk a little bit about Project Sign and Project
Grudge if I have that right, Um, the two the two Um trying
to thank you before? Yeah? That, uh, now, why did
each of those? And I want to talk about the ghost rockets and all
that I want to talk about some of these really interesting things. But um,
did they both close? How did this? What made them close and
go into like the next process of grudge and then close? Yeah, And
what happened was when when Project Sign was created, Um, that was a
classified name. The public name was Project Saucer. So as they're moving along,
somehow the name got compromised. They wrote a final report, they said
Sign has done, we're done. Here's our final report. All they do
is change the name and kept going change it to Project Grudge. Same thing
again, they changed the name from Grudge to blue Book. They wrote a
final report and said we're done with Project Grudge, it's all done. But
it became Project Bluebook. So it was a way of kind of protecting the
classified names until they got out, and then it was a way of suggecting
the public. There was nothing important here because we stopped investigating, but they
didn't stop investigating. And the same thing when the ended Project Bluebook in nineteen
sixty nine, they said, well, we're done, we're not doing it
anymore. But then there was Project Moondust, which had already been created and
was used as a way of continuing the investigations and and Moondust name was compromised.
Moondust was compromised. In the mid nineteen eighties, Robert Todd got a
bunch of foia documents from the State Department and in there there was stuff talking
about Moondust, and so he started looking into Moondust and realized they had a
UFO component component. If we had been really careful in our study of Project
blue Book, we would have found cases in their labeled Moondust. They're really
crappy cases. They I think one or two it and sound like meteors.
But you go through and you read the project card and it says right on
the project card project Moondust, or just says moon Dust. And one of
the books I did I actually had, I showed the car one of the
cards that had that term on at Moondust. So clearly there was a UFO
component, and clearly they were communicating with the moon Dust people were communicating with
Blue Book. But General Bolander said in nineteen sixty nine that the really hot
cases, really cases of affected national security, it didn't go to Bluebook.
They one elsewhere. So now we have a general officer telling us that not
everything is communicated to Bluebook even though regulations required him. And then we can
see that there were other investigations going on at that time, so we know
that it's the blue Book became little more than a public relations outfit. But
they got some really good cases while they were doing the investigation. As I
said, the Zamora case in nineteen sixty four, which which I also cover
in the Best of Project Bluebook, it's it's a condensed version of what appears
an encounter in the desert. So if you're interested in that case alone,
encountering the desert, it's the book to look at. But if you're interested
in just you know, the general, look at Project Bluebook and some of
the best cases and that then the best of Project Bluebook is what you want
to do. And one of the one of the things I wanted to do,
and we talked with you, and I mentioned earlier the Condent Committee.
They did a investigation of a sighting in nineteen fifty four. They i mean
reviewed it and they didn't solve it. They didn't come up with a solution.
They said it was a natural phenomenon so rare, it had never been
seen before or since. I'm thinking even if it's not leading you to an
alien spacecraft. A new natural phenomena would have been of scientific value to understand,
but they just they just blew it off. So what I did in
the Best Project of Bluebook, I look for additional information on that case from
nineteen fifty four and was able to find it. And one of the things
that came up in that was the pilots of the aircraft that made the sighting
near Greenland were interrogated by men from it may have been the Ministry of Defense
in Great Bit, Britain, or it may have been air Force Air Force
OSI guys talking about it. But there's a newspaper article where one of the
other crew member had run into the pilots and asked him about the interrogation.
So now we can't talk about that. So I was able to add additional
detail to this the cases that appeared in the content report and give you some
insight of to where where it is. And the other thing I did in
the book, and I borrowed this from Jerry Clark in his massive UF encyclopedia.
At the end of each segment he would list the sources, and so
at the end of each segment of the book, I listed the sources used
for that specific entry, so you could go to those sources and kind of
follow the trail that I had followed to get to where I got there and
see if you see if you may come to the same conclusion. So I
had based on the research that you can kind of do yourself. Wow.
Um, Now, I just wanted to talk about some of the cases because
that's always what's really fascinating to you know, the listeners out there, and
one of them, he's looking through his book for those listening to the audio
part of it. Anyway, you talk about the ghost Rockets, which I
think is of such a fascinating thing nineteen forty six. Um, you really
are looking Oh I did, um but um you and you know I only
got to skim the first part of the book, and um, but you
were talking about the different phases of Project Sign and Project Grudge and all that.
But the ghost Rockets. I wouldn't just get back to that because I
think it is so fascinating. I've talked to class Faun about that. He's
done a lot of research and those things landed in lakes And I know you
mentioned that, you know, there was a lot of speculation that these were
Russian and you know, no one really they never really figured out exactly what
they were. But interesting, I try to set up the whole thing to
make people understand that the UFO phenomena didn't begin on June twenty fourth, nineteen
forty seven, when Kenneth Arnold made his report. It began actually during the
Second World War with the Foo Fighters. Yes, And what is interesting is
one of the guys involved in the investigation of the food fighters was Colonel Howard
McCoy. He was an American therefore well Army Air Forces officer at the time,
and he was involved in But when the war ended, nobody cared anymore.
I mean, clearly, the Foo fighters weren't German or Japanese inventions.
They weren't you know, they weren't the enemy, and with the war over,
there was no real imperative to discover what they were, so it just
kind of faded away. Then in nineteen forty six you had the ghost rockets
being seen in Scandinavia over the summer. One of the people involved in that
was a guy named Howard McCoy. Yass the same guy. And what you
see is at the end of nineteen forty six, and McCoy is in communication
with the people in Sweden, where a majority of the investigation took place.
He is called in from actually their Christmas party in December of nineteen forty six
and told to set up an unofficial investigation into these aerial phenomenon. So once
you end up with Kenneth Arnold, Howard McCoy has already got an investigation in
place, and so it's morphed into the official investigation of this. And so
Howard McCoy was involved in it from the very beginning. But the thing is,
with the collapse of the Soviet Union, the theory had been the Soviets,
we're doing it to intimidate the Swedes for some reason. And when the
Soviet Union collapse and a lot of that their classified documentation was available for world
wide UFO researchers, nobody found anything to suggest that the ghost rockets were being
being fired by the Soviets. So it's still a mystery. We don't know
where they originated, what they were going going to are. There's a couple
of pictures. I think one of them shows a meteor and but it's a
picture of the guy out on the lake with his equipment and there's a streak
in the sky and that sort of thing. So there's some interesting stuff going
on there. So it's a very it's a fascinating aspect of the UFO phenomenon.
But to understand where we are, how we got to where we are,
you have to begin with the FOO fighters of World War Two and move
forward. So that was why in the beginning of the book, I do
that short history of how we got the point where we began an official UFO
investigation. I see, yeah, well that that all works for me.
Let's see, we got in five minutes, we got to go to another
break. But um, so I wanted to get into um you know,
for the person knew that is just starting to listen. You know, like
my sister, as I just mentioned, by the way people in the chat
room are trying to get her to say embarrassed, tell them embarrassing stories about
my childhood. She's she's not going to do that. Um, but let's
talk about some of these uh, Like for instance, you have the roads
photograph in July seventh, nineteen forty seven, that was again before Project Blue
Book. But is that something you want to talk about? It's part of
Project Blue Book, although the Project Blue well before Sign even sign began in
January nineteen forty eight, That's what I was trying to remember here him,
but after Arnold and they began the unofficial investigation their sightings that precede even Arnold
in the Project Bluebook files. But the problem with those they were reported after
Arnold, so you can begin to wonder if that was some something of contamination.
The Rhodes photograph was taken in Phoenix in July of nineteen forty seven.
Turns out Rhodes was a genius, really smart guy, held a number of
patents, had worked for the Navy during the beginning of the Second World War.
They were going to hire him to do some research or hire him on
I think the University of Arizona, but he had a very abrasive personality and
he said it not to work with him. But he built some equipment for
them, you know, designed equipment for them and sort of that sort of
thing. So he's a very bright guy. He took these two photographs in
on July seventh over Phoenix. Not long after he took those photographs, here
was a sighting event that took place in Washington State and Kenneth Arnold was involved
in investigating that for Ray Palmer, who ran science fiction magazine. So Arnold
was down there and he had worked with two officers from the fourth Air Force
intelligence officers. They came up to help Arnold with the investigation and pick up
some physical evidence that turned out to be useless, and I know, unfortunately
the two officers were killed going back to their home basement the airplane crashed.
But the important point here is Arnold asked about other sightings and he was told
that he was told about the Rhodes photograph and that that was something that really
disturbed the military because the photograph matched the description that Arnold had told to the
military. If you look at the Project bluebook file with the Arnold sighting at
it, there's a drawing that he made and it's kind of a heel shaped
object. That crescent shaped object that morphed into later on is kind of stylized,
but the original drawing is a heel shaped object, and what Rhodes photographed
is a heel shaped object. And so the military officers were telling Arnold that,
you know, this kind of corroborated his sighting, So you've that becomes
the important point of the Rhodes photographed. But the military, after the initial
investigation, worked very hard to just credit roads. They said, well,
you know, he's an unemployed guy. He's got this laboratory in the backyard
that he calls a panoramic laboratory, and he's the director of research or something
like that, and he just plays piano at a bar, and he's living
off his wife's income and that sort of thing, and just really can't trust
him. Kind of smeared his whole reputation because I don't think they could really
find anything else to attack. But when you get into it and you start
talking about the I'm talking to his friends, what happened was I got him,
and I got a call from a fellow, a fellow who told me
about some of the road stuff, and so I started looking at it and
discovered one of his friends was Arden mind and Minden something like that, who
was at the University of Arizona. So, just on a lark, I
mean, we're talking about nineteen forty seven, I'm looking at this stuff in
two thousand and ten, two eleven, just on a lark, I checked
the University of Arizona website and found the guy he's still alive. I emailed
him, he emailed me back, so he was able to tell me some
of the stuff about Rhodes that the Air Force didn't put in their file.
So I was able to append that to the story as it appears in the
book. So you learn about what he said about the genius of William Rhodes
and how some of this stuff came about simply because Rhodes. I think the
military was bothered by his photographs because they were too close to what Arnold described,
and they worked very hard to smear him, especially after nineteen fifty two.
They worked very hard to smear the guy's reputation, which I think is
very unfortunate. Well, well we are right at the break, Kevin,
so we will be back right after these messages. Hang in all right,
welcome back to the show. My name is Martin Willis and my guest is
Kevin Randall. Always great having him on the show. It's always a lot
of fun. And we are going to be taking calls in about twenty twenty
five minutes from now, so that number will be That number is there.
If you want to write it down, it's up on the screen on YouTube.
You can write it down if you'd like, And again that's in about
twenty minutes or so. We'll be back with that number for you all.
And so, Kevin, as far as some of the really interesting cases when
you're looking through this, I guess what I'm going to ask you is,
did you was there any case that you really learned something you know as you
looked into it that you were unaware of? That was that is of note?
Well, I talked a little bit about some of the stuff with the
Rhodes photograph for example. Yeah, and looking at the Michigan sidings from nineteen
sixty six, the Great Swamp Gas Fiasco, and looking at that, it
was it was interesting to see that the explanation of swamp gas really doesn't fit
because the well, some of the witnesses got way too close and the swamp
gas is kind of a a very nebulous type fire that has a very short
life it you know, it bursts up there and fades out very quickly,
and they were looking at something much more substantial. But the way the well,
the news media and the military kind of manipulated the data, manipulated the
information, and how they tried to provide a rational as opposed to an extraterrestrial
explanation for what was going on there and how they were treating some of the
witnesses. That was the one thing that throughout the cases you would see the
military, not the military, well the military and the civilians being less than
cordial to some of the witnesses trying to tell them what they had seen,
as opposed to what did you see type thing, Well, this is really
what you saw, and they would say, well, no, I didn't
see that. So you go through the cases like that, and you see,
I guess a really important thing is you see is the case as it's
kind of been covered in the media or what you've heard about just briefly isn't
really quite the truth. There's a lot more to the case. A prime
example is the level Land case, which I mentioned earlier. You see that
the Air Force saying, well, there are only three witnesses that saw they
saw the object, and the Air Force gets into a big fight with Don
Kehoe of Nightcap about the number of witnesses, and Keijo said, well,
there were nine, there were nine witnesses. Looking at the Air Force file,
I found thirteen witnesses, I should say witnesses at thirteen separate locations.
That's in the Air Force file, and yet the Air Force is saying there
were only three. There were only three witnesses, and so you look at
that sort of thing and you can see where the military is manipulating the data.
Kehoe is inflating the numbers, but not enough because we found out that
there were more than he said. So the big fight was over the number
of witnesses as opposed to what did they see and what were their advanced I
mean, you've got the object close to the ground, You've got guys within,
you know, just a few dozen feet of the thing. It stalls
their car engines. It causes the lights to fade, it causes the radios
to fade, to fill with static, and then when the object leaves,
the lights come back on, the radio static goes away, and their cars
will start. And the one thing that I discovered and looking at the level
end cases, I noticed in one of the cases the guy said, I
was able to start my car. And one of the things that we've heard
about UFO sightings, when they stall the car engine, the car starts again
and it's like it's spontaneous. The Condon Committee said, well, we can
think of no physical reason for the car to start spontaneously. If you've suppressed
the engine, especially using a magnetic field, it should not restart. You've
interrupted the flow of electricity, so it may cause the lights to dim,
but you're not going to get the car to start spontaneously. And looking at
the case files, I discovered that a number of people didn't say the car
started spontaneously. They said I was able to start my car, or the
car was the car would start. So I went back through all the electromagnetic
cases about cars that Mark Rodiger had put together. He had a book that
he put together on the electromagnetic effects and given you all the cases. And
what I discovered is often the person said that the car, you know,
the car started again, I was able to start the car. Didn't say
it started spontaneously, accept in a very few cases. And so the content
committee rejected it because of this idea that it could think of no physical reason
for the car to start spontaneously. And it turns out that's a misnomer.
They don't start spontaneously. That was one of the things I learned by going
through the level Land case. It's kind of what sparked that area of research.
Wow, I want to just tell this quick story. I have told
it I don't know, three or four times on this show over the last
several years. But it's really fascinating saloon those lines and that is uh.
And I actually visited. This happened in Russia. So this guy was driving,
this guy that I talked to it as my friend's father. He told
the story. He's not into UFOs, doesn't didn't even know what it was.
But they were driving through a pass, a very busy pass in Russia.
I mean, like I said, I've driven, I've ridden through it,
and all the cars stalled, all the cars coming both way stalled,
and they pulled over to the side of the road, and his stalled,
of course, and he got out, lifted the hood and everyone else is
lifting the hood, and all of a sudden, without any sound at all,
this big cigar shape thing came right through the pass, right over them
with portholes. He saw portholes in it, and then it floated. He
said, it was just like moved through, like it floated through. And
then everyone kind of looked at each other and no one talked about it.
Someone jumped back in their car after it went through and it started and everyone's
car started back up. I mean, isn't that bizarre. That's just another
one of those I love actually hearing stories from someone that is, you know,
here's a Russian guy telling the story. It's being translated to me and
pretty cool. Well, this sounds like the Stoke story from New Mexico back
in nineteen fifty seven after the level land sightings. Just a couple of days
later and they're driving down toward Oral Grande and there's a pass in the Oregon
Mountains. I mean, it's not a big high pass or anything like that,
but that's what happened to him. He drives up on there and there's
a bunch of cars pulled to the side of the road and they've all they've
all stopped, and his car stalls out, so he drifts over to the
side of the road. He gets out of the car, he's looking up
at the thing. It gets a sunburn, like a sunburn from from this,
and he was treated in the hospital. It was a very light sunburn
and it faded quickly. But I think Carla Renzen and Jim Lorenzen from the
Aerophenomenal Research Organization, they got there in time because they lived in Alamagordo,
and of course the Air Force base in that area where this took place.
So they got there in time to see the sunburn on the guy. By
the time the Air Force investigators got there, the sun time had faded.
I was able to talk to one of the guys at White Sands Missile Range,
which is co located with Holloman. You have to keep thinking that people
don't understand, don't know all these details at Holloman is right there by White
Sands, and White Sands goes all the way up in New Mexico to nearly
Soakoro and all of this sort of thing. But I talked to one of
the guys, one of the MPs, who was on duty the second the
night of the level Land sightings down November second morning of November third, nineteen
fifty seven. After the thing it left level Land, they get involved in
the UFO sighting and there were four MP's involved in it. And that's what
really killed me about this. So the Air Force comes to investigate and they're
making fun of the well, you know, they're just a bunch of kids
out there, are the MPs. There are twenty one, twenty two years
old and I'm thinking, really, you're going to do that now, you
play that silly game. I was an Army helicopter pilot in Vietnam, an
aircraft commander at nineteen, and so you're making fun of these guys who are
much more mature than I was, who were regarding this thing as well.
You know, they were just a bunch of excitable kids. And I'm thinking,
now, I ain't going to buy that, fella. That was the
other thing. I kind of learned that as well. As you look at
that, and you can see how the Air Force kind of manipulated the data
of the investigators, would manipulated the data to make it not as make the
witnesses seem not as credible as they were. Wow, yeah, that doesn't
that doesn't surprise me. Ken. Now I've got a little bit of an
inside scoop here that I forgot to even ask you if it was okay if
I talked about and you can tell me yes or no. And there's a
roswell series. Um, I think you actually interviewed. Is that that's coming
up? Can you talk at all about that? No, I'm just kidding.
You cracked me up. And it's part of a larger series where some
famous guys investigating a lot of UFO stuff or paranormal stuff or cryptozoology stuff.
And part of the series takes place in Roswell, and they devote six hours
of this series. All the others are like an hour or two hours.
They devote six hours to the Roswell case. And so they've we went back
down and looked at the Rami memo at the Special Collections at the University of
Texas at Arlington and try to try to try to decipher that a little bit
better. And they've talked to a lot of the people who had them.
Marcel's involved in that sort of thing. So it's gonna be a very interesting
thing. And there's some very interesting stuff that I can't talk about yet till
this series years. And I'm sitting here thinking, I got to do a
blog posting because this is really great stuff, and I can't do it because
they wouldn't. I mean, they it was their discovery. So they get
to the get to break the story at the beginning, but once it,
once it airs, I'm going to have the producer of the show on my
show. Um, when we get to the point where the series will air
out, they think a little error in June, but they weren't sure exactly
what the scheduling was going to be on the on the History Channel, I
believe, Yeah, on the History Channel. Wow. So I want to
keep on the loop in that so I can let my listeners know. And
so if before that goes up, I would. I mean, anything new
is always interesting when it comes to a case like that. I think,
you know, we looked again at the Ramy Memo and those of who I
was with Josh Gates down there two or three years ago doing the same sort
of thing. And so but you get to see, you know, you've
heard about the Ramy Memo and the special Collections, and you get to see
that stuff now, and you get to see where all the negatives they have
in cold stories. They have a vault which is climate control. I think
it like forty degrees, because they discovered that the negatives that they had were
beginning to deteriorate, and so they put him into They built this four million
dollar vault to store this stuff. And they had literally tens of thousands of
photographs that came from the Fort Worth Star Telegram, which was a big who
which was is the big, big newspaper in Fort Worth, So they had
all those photographs and everybody, everybody focuses on this this one little deal of
the Ramie memo. But they've got photographs going back into the nineteenth century and
some really fascinating stuff there that goes just beyond Roswell. But the case and
the segment I was in, well I did. I did a an interview
and we talked about other aspects of the Roswell case as well. So it's
a long thing. I think they I think they talked to Don Schmidt and
Tom Kerry and I don't know who all. They talked to the Marcels and
they were out at the museum and they were out at the site where the
thing where Bill Brasil identified the brief field for Donn and me. And I
say it that way because people have said, well, you guys didn't really
know where the debris field was, and I'm thinking, you know, Bill
Brazzle took me out there. I'm pretty sure I got to the right place.
You know, the guy had seen it, he'd been out there.
I'm pretty sure we're on the right section in New Mexico desert. So yeah,
yeah, wow, Um, one of the one of the things I
saw that you had in as a chapter in the book is the Heflin photo
or photographs. I think there are three of them. Now let me just
ask you this, And for the YouTube person on YouTube, I just put
a picture up there of it. I have been told by someone that that
was a hoax. Do you know anything about that? Of course, well,
well will you get to any any good photograph? And the skeptical community
when they run out of explanations, it's a hoax. Yeah, And oftentimes
the hoax explanation is appended to it based on some really shaky stuff that I
think the roads photographs are hoax because they didn't like his panoramic research laboratory in
his backyard and calling himself the director or the chief engineer or something. And
they didn't like the fact that he didn't have a real job like other people
do. He was a musician, and I'm thinking he's playing piano in a
bar. Playing piano is a really tough thing to do. And yet he
holds all these pat and the old patents which he was making money on and
that sort of thing. But they smeared him because he had a claimed to
have a PhD from Columbia, and he had a little tiny wallet side card
that had that on there. And I think that the way that all came
about. You're gonna have to excuse me for a moment, is that when
he went into the Navy or was working with the Navy, is working for
the Navy, they realized in their research section they didn't have a lot of
guys with PhDs or master's degrees and that sort of thing. And what they
did was they created a program of giving them equivalency degrees. And you took
this complex test and if you scored well enough, well then you had the
equivalent of a bachelor's degree. Score higher, you got a master's degree.
And if you scored at the top, you got the equivalency of a PhD.
And of course Roads scored at the top. I don't know he had
that little card. Columbia doesn't seem to know anything about it, but he
had that card. He was and he talked about the equivalency in a couple
of times, so you know, they decided because of that he claimed to
have a PhD. Was he was hoaxing it With Hefflin, It's kind of
the same thing because he talked about two guys from Norad. I think it
was coming down to ask for the photographs, the original photographs, and he
gave them to him. So the original photographs disappeared for a long period of
time and the Air Force was saying, well, Norad wouldn't have been involved
in the investigation. Ergo, he's made this story up and it's a hoax
then, um, because I think ground Saucer watching Hayden Hughes, I believe,
did a computer analysis of the photographs or one of the photographs, and
he found a line on it and he suggested this line in the computer enhancement
suggest it was something suspended above the truck. It was reinvestigated later, and
I'd cover all of this in detail in the book if you really I mean,
if people really want to get the details rather than just kind of viewing
it here. But they talk about getting the original photographs back. He was
told yeah, Um, Hefflin was told to go out and look at his
mailbox. He went out, there was nothing there. He got a call
from the guy an hour later and he says, go look at your mailbox,
and there were the original photographs. So Druffel and her team were able
to re examined the photographs and they could find no evidence of the string in
And they said that Hughes and the ground saucer and watch guys were working from
a third or fourth generation print and that had been creased and folded and that
sort of thing, and the line was probably a artifact from the way the
print had been handled, and they could find no evidence of it. So
I think we're back to the idea that Heflin may have photographed something really unusual.
There was other evidence also that other guys working in his department with the
Highway Services, they had radio communications and they were having radio communications when this
object was overhead. Radio communications problems when the object was overhead, So there's
additional information, and I think, you know, you move beyond the idea
that this is a this is a hoax that Heflin dreamed up himself. That
was that that's always the fallback position, and if we cannot explain it,
well, then it's obviously a hoax. Yeah. I'm trying to remember who
told me that on this show. Alice Struffle, I take and do it,
I know, but I talked to their daughter, Alice. Oh,
I'm sorry, Yeah, and Alice told me that they still have those.
They have the three pictures in their safe in their house right now, so
they still have those available. These are to explain it. Why don't we
just explain what happened there? It was polaroids, right, and it was
a salesman or some no, he's worked for the Highway Department. Oh okay,
right right right, driving down the road and saw this strange object through
the windows of the of his truck and he managed to take three polaroid photographs
of the object as it flew over. And another reason they thought it was
a hoax is later he showed them a fourth photograph, which was kind of
a smoke ring type thing, and they were all concerned at that. He
didn't show that photograph up front for some reason. I'm not sure why,
but it's an object that hovered over the area for a period of time.
He took three very clear photographs of it. There was all sorts of analysis
done, and there again in the UFO field, pick the analysis you like
the best and run with it, because there's going to be an analysis that
falls into your own belief structure. If you believe there's no alien visitation,
there can't be any UFOs, then clearly it's a hoax, and there's photo
analysis that will prove that to you. And if you accept alien visitations and
you believe they're UFOs or flying saucers, then this photograph tends to support that
that belief, So you can find the analysis that will support that as well.
Do you know if he was interviewed, you know, and intensely interviewed
about this whole this whole situation. He was interviewed a number of times,
both by the military and private UFOs chers. I think Robert would talk to
him some years after the event as well, so you know he was he
was interviewed by a lot of people. Didn't cause him any any aggravation at
work, I don't think. I know, police officers who were involved in
uh UFO chases and UFO sightings often found themselves ridiculed and harassed out of their
jobs eventually, but I don't think that that happened. I think he went
on retired from his job there. But this was in but the narrowly the
Eltoro Marine Base in southern California. I see, Wow, did they did
anyone ever try to say it was a military uh you know, secret military
project? Or anything like that. Are you aware of nothing like that?
You know, it hadn't been a secret military project back when he took the
photographs in the nineteen sixties. You would think that, you know, we
would already know what it is. We'd say, well, here, here's
what it really was. And that's that's never happened with this these particular sets
of photographs, so you know. And that's the other thing, you know,
when you look at the older cases and they say, well it was
a military secret. Yeah, what sort of technology was available fifty years ago
that is now that isn't now obsolete that we don't know about. Gee whiz.
We know about the B two bomber in the in the F one seventeen,
which were highly classified projects in the late eighties early nineties, and now
we've got photographs of them and we know exactly what they're what they look like.
So um, you know that I can't think of a project that would
be still be classified at this late date that wouldn't have been wouldn't be obsolete
now based on the advancement of our technology, because we're talking about nineteen sixties
and a polaroid camera, which for those of you who do not know.
Polaroid camera was the deal. You took the picture and it slid out of
the camera and it developed in sixty seconds. It didn't have to go to
a photoshop to get it, which is of course digital cameras are much better
now, a much better way of doing it. Not to saying a polaroid
it was digital. It actually had film and negatives and all of that stuff.
Yeah, yeah, all right, so let's just I want to switch
to a different case. It's actually close to home for me. I lived
in the area quite a while. And that's chapter thirteen. You talk about
the Exeter, the Exeter, New Hampshire siting, and I'm interested to know
what Project Bluebook had to say about that. Well, it's in the book.
You should read the book, don't not a centric I know. I
cut the book, Yeah I will. I just didn't get a chance.
And I looked at what the Air Force had to say about it and where
all of that went, and I think what you look at, you see
that it's not just a single witness case. The Air Force glommed onto the
ionization of the atmosphere explanation, which Philip Class invented because of the Exeter sighting
saying that the electrical discharges from these high tension wines would ionize the air and
that creats these big glowing balls of gas. And anybody who's lived around high
tension lines, no, that's really true. By the way, that was
sarcasm and the a the Air Force jumped onto that explanation. But you get
down to it, and you've got police officers involved. You've got multiple witnesses.
You've got not just the guy seeing it and becoming frightened. You've got
a police officer who who in the before the guy showed up at the police
station, he'd found a woman sitting in her card and overpassed, was very
upset and said that this flying saucer had been following her and you got her
calm down and send her on her way. And they gets the police station
here, this guy comes in and he's upset and talking about flying saucers again.
So they go out to the area where he'd seen the flying saucer and
they see it in the distance. Another police officer shows up and they and
he sees it as well. It's a big glowing mass near this h over
this house and by these high tension lines and that that became the explanation for
the Air Force a high tension lines. But it was a series of sightings
by a number of people over a period of time that was quite complex.
I talked to a physicist and it was on a different case about this ionization
of the atmosphere. I think after class class made that explanation. I think
he revealed the explanation in Aviation Weeks Week in Space Technology, which he was
a magazine. He was a senior editor Force, even senior aviation editor for
talked about that, and he put that explanation out there, and the atmospheric
physicists and the physicists just came down heavily on as had ain't going to be
the way. But I called a physicist about that. He was talking to
him about the object that was seen over my Not North South Dakota, my
Not Air Force base, and the idea again the Air Force, that it
was ionization of the atmosphere. And I talked to him about that, and
he said, well, don't you think that if that was true, we'd
be seeing those all over the place. And what became clear, Yeah,
there is an ionization does take place of the atmosphere. But the problem is
it doesn't glow unless it's acted on by some other mechanism. So you might
have this ionization that might affect radar in the way temperature version would affect radar,
but people aren't going to be able to see it. It doesn't naturally
glow. And so the Air Force explanation that these guys are seeing this glowing
ionization of the atmosphere, it just doesn't work because they just don't normally glow.
And but that was that was kind of the Air Force explanation for the
whole case. But I was able to take it beyond that and find additional
witnesses. I think John Fuller's book Incident Exeter, I think it was,
does a real nice job of laying some of the evidence out in greater detail
than I do in this book. But you know, I've got the I've
got the basics down there and the explanations, and as I say, my
mine is based on the Air Force file and then the later information that people
like John Fuller was able to um to find. You know, Jerry Clark
has done a wonderful job of explaining that in his UFO Encyclopedia, and there's
a lot of other information out there and various sources that you know you can
draw upon too. I just kind of collect all of that information and consolidated
it into into the book. Right. I haven't heard much from Jerry Clark
in a while. Um, I know he hasn't written a book in a
long time. But he was really good. He did some really good work.
Well, if you're going to be an UFO researcher, you absolutely have
to have the uf encyclopedia that he did. The problem is it's really pricey.
It's like, you know, a couple of hundred dollars and yeah,
but it's it's it's just so comprehend, hansive, and I'm astonished at some
of the stuff that isn't in there. But in the third edition that he
just completed a couple of years ago, he said, because of the constraints
placed on him by the publisher, he had to leave some stuff out that
he wanted to get in there. So, but it's a wonderful research tool
for anybody who's doing UFOL research. You've got to have a copy of that
book, of those books, two volumes, You've got to have that because
that's that's a good basis to start and like I said, I borrowed from
him the idea. In the Best of Project Blue Book, at the end
of each chapter, I put a list of the sources um and that I
borrowed that idea from him, because in his uf encyclopedia, after you get
done reading the article, there's a long list of sources. Sometimes it's a
very shortlist because there's not a lot of sources, but a very detailed list
of sources, and then there's a a massive bibliography at the end and all
of that stuff in it as well. But it's just an absolute must have
research tool for anybody doing UFO research, right yeah, oh yeah, he's
a multi talented guy too. I think he writes music or something like that
I wanted to published. Oh really wow, Yes, yeah. We are
opening the lines right now for calls. And if you're over at KGRA A
radio and write this down, that's eight five five four seven two five four
eight three. It's up on the screen if you're on YouTube and we are
taking calls and Race will be standing by to screen your call. So let's
see we have you have a lot of different ones that you have looked into.
And I know that the mcminville one I don't see you don't have that
one in here, but there is there's question about that photograph too, And
I always, you know, I hear these things from different people, and
I just wanted to get your quick opinion on that. The problem we have
is we have and I really don't want to say skeptical community, because it's
really not skeptics. It's the bunkers who believe there is absolutely no alien visitation
ergo. Any suggests otherwise must be a hoax. You know. So you've
got the pictures at Menville, which have to be a hoax because there's no
other explanation for him. I thought I had done in a different book.
I thought I had done a fairly neutral job of recounting this stuff. And
one guy pointed out to me that it turned out to be very negative.
I didn't think it was negative at all. But yeah, there's the idea
that's a hoax. But I just can't see these people in McMinnville, Oregon,
the farmer and his wife creating this hoax. They just didn't seem sophisticated
enough to do that sort of thing. Let's make a UFO side, Let's
make a UFO hoax. Now, if we were in twenty twenty and this
came up, I'd say, yeah, it's very possible because of what we
can do. But this is nineteen fifty and people don't understand how to make
double exposures, or how to how to create images on the film that aren't
really in the sky around them, and that sort of thing. And so
I just can't see that a farmer and his wife would have come up with
this this explanation, and then once they got the photographs back and saw that
they turned out really really well, didn't immediately take them to the news media.
Didn't do that. A friend of theirs found saw happened to see the
parents in the house, and said they should take it to the newspaper,
which they eventually did. I mean, it wasn't like, well, we've
got this great Hoak story, now let's take it to the newspaper because we
know the photographs turned out. I just don't like the Hoak's explanation appended to
everything. There may be another explanation for it, but they're seeing to be
stuff in there that in the story that they tell and the way it was
told. One of the one of the reasons they said it was a hoax,
I believe, as they were looking at the shadows on the garage under
the eaves of the garage, and they said the photos were taken not taken
close together. They were taken twenty or thirty minutes apart, and they weren't
taken in the order that. Yeah something now the sun in the shadows under
that, and you know it's all that kind of detail. Yeah, yeah,
we got we got someone online one I believe it's the Paul. Is
it Paul Heinick? Yeah, Hi, Martin. How are you. Hey,
Paul, great to hear you. How are you badways? Uh?
Dave Altman told me about the show, Oh excellent. Well, I have
to tell you, Paul, I had so much fun with you out in
Phoenix back in September. I love your sense of humor here, a lot
of fun to hang around with. Um. So I'm really by the way,
for the listener, this is Paul Heinik and the son of doctor j
Alan Heineck, who is on the line right now. I saw you in
the chat room early. I was pretty excited about that. Thanks for thanks
for joining in. Happy to be here, and hello Kevin. Hi.
Paul was waiting for a chance to jump in. Haven't chatted to with you
for a long time? Yes, since your show? Yes, yes,
Well let me ask you a question since you're here and I understand the constraint
you might be under, But what do you think of the new season going
so far off the rails? How's that for a loaded question? Yeah?
So I've never heard UFOs being considered to be on the rail, so I
think it's going great. Okay, Hey, Paul, did you have did
you have a question for Kevin? Ye? Are you just calling in to
say hi? Yeah? I respect both of you guys greatly. I wanted
to say hello. Well, it's always it's always great to hear from you.
And I'm trying to remember what you said. Um when you were out,
Um, you said that your dad had the Van Allen belt? Was
that? Was that? What it was? No, I own a Van
Allen belt. That's right, it was actually Van Allen's belt. Well,
so people understand what's going on here. I actually studied astronomy, actually took
a couple of courses in astronomy at the University of Iowa, and James Van
Allen was they had the chairman of the Department of Physics and astronomy. So
we had we had him in a couple of classes talking to us, and
he made it clear to us that at the University of Iowa there are no
Van Allen belts except the ones that hold up his pants. He's talking about
the radiation belts around the Earth, So at the University of Eye with the
radiation belts of the Van Allen Belts hold up his pants. So so,
Paul, you're at work. But m and do you do a lot of
since we have you on the line, you actually do quite a bit of
a consulting four of the TV series, right, yeah, that's right.
Um, and have had an influence over how especially my father's portray. Yeah,
and so far, so good. You're you're okay with the Um,
I know, I do remember our conversation in last September. You mentioned something
along the lines where there was one thing you weren't comfortable with and they actually
changed it for you. Right, Yeah, it did. Um. It
was in an episode sixth of this season, and um, it was the
one time where I felt that, in Kevin's word, things went off the
rails from a personal point of view, and they were very sensitive to that
and they did make the changes. Yeah, that's good. That's good.
Well, great to hear from you, Paul as always, and I'd love
to get you back on the show someday again. It was. It was
a lot of fun. And last time you were actually on the show,
you were on with Calvin Parker, both of you together. That was a
lot of fun. That's right, my good friend Calvin. Well, I
want to say hi, thank you very much. Take care, all right,
you two you take care. Thanks, thanks for calling in. All
right everyone, the lines are open once again, and that number is eight
five five four seven two five four eight three. Kevin M. I know
again it's not in your your your book. That just came up, but
we have Palmer Centers. The question, because of your military helicopter experience,
wanted to know what your opinion was on the coin case. And I don't
know if you and I guess you have done a lot of research into this
at one time. But for the person that's new to UFOs in general,
can you explain, Um, we don't have to spend a lot of time
on it, but what what went on and what your thoughts are about what
went on? We had a helicopter crew playing a Huey helicopter near Mansville,
Ohio and encounter a UFO object bright green object had I think red lights on
one end of it, that sort of thing. And as they watched it
come down past the aircraft, circle around behind, and come in from the
from the other side. And that's important to realize that the object actually changed
it's its direction a number of times. And at one point, UM they
thought they were going to collide with this with this object, and it um
seemed to lift the helicopter up physically, and uh so that I guess they
were Excuse me, I'm trying to replay the scenario in my mind here.
What happened was the object was coming close to them UM and and they thought
they were going to collide. Coin put the collective, which is the control
that that um controls altitude to the full down position because he wanted to avoid
it, and the objects seemed to lift them up, and he was trying
to stop the climb so they wouldn't hit the hit the object, and they
have the collective down to the full the collective in the full down position,
and they continued to climb up. Eventually there was some kind of a bump
and the object left and he gain regained control of the of the aircraft.
Now, one of the things that I know that from from my experience as
a helicopter pilot, UM Philip Class said, well, maybe maybe Jesse,
who was the other pilot at the collective down because he knew what was pulled
up on the collective, accidentally pulled up on the collective because he knew they
were getting close to the ground, and that was why they were in this
climb. Even though Coin thought the collective was pulled down, Jesse had pulled
it up and that was why they were in the climb. And I said,
no, that would never happen because Coin and Jesse had the same training
I did. I think Coin he probably went through as a commissioned officer,
but about the same time that I went through flight school. Helicopter flight school,
and the one thing you were taught religiously is you've got the controls in
your hands. If the other pilot needs to take the controls, he'll say
I've got it. You feel him on the controls, you released and say
you've got it. You don't make a control change without telling the other pilot
what you're doing, Otherwise you end up with the pilots fighting each other for
the control of the aircraft. So Jesse would have never pulled up on the
collective to stop the dissent that he thought they were in had he not said
something to it. I was we had an I didn't experience like somewhat similar
in Vietnam where I was flying the air I guess the copilot was flying the
aircraft and he put it into a sudden bank and a dive, and I
started to reach for the controls. I said, what's the problem. I
said, he thought we were about to hit something. But I wasn't going
to take the controls from him and jerk him away from from that, because
then you fight its controls. Had I taken control, I said, I
would have said I've got it, and he would have released the controls.
Bute, And you do that because the other pilot may see something that would
affect the aircraft that you didn't see. So he's taking control to avoid some
kind of an accent or some kind of a problem. So that was one
thing that struck me. And I know Class said a lot of things in
his book and when he analyzed the quincase that I just didn't agree with He
said at one point, well, I have a friend who was a helicopter
pilot and he told me this, and that I'm thinking, was he an
army helicopter pilot? What had he gone through Army helicopter school? Was he
riding in the back of the aircraft? Was he actually flying the aircraft?
How many hours that this guy have didn't tell us anything about it? And
Class postulated the green color was based on a strip of green glass at the
top of the windshield of the helicopter. But they don't have green tinted glass
at the top of the aircraft. Those of you who are old enough you
remember cars used to come with his green tint on the top of windshields to
kind of mitigate the sun. But there are two things. And the Huey
helicopter right above the pilot's heads that we called the greenhouses, there were squares
of green plexiglass, and but it's right above the helicopter pilot's head. It's
not out the front. So that had a coin been looking through the greenhouse
to see it, he would have been had his head tilted back, and
the inclination would have been when you're looking like that is to pull back on
the cyclic, which is the other control than the helicopter. I think it's
a very good case. I don't think there's a good explanation for it.
I think that the things that people have said about it don't understand helicopter operations.
They don't understand how what the training is of the military pilots, and
they don't really talk to military pilots about that. I can understand you saying,
well, Coin said this, that and the other thing, but getting
the opinion of another army helicopter pilot is going to give you a better perspective
on what what Coin was thinking and what the other pilot, Jesse was thinking
as that the event took place. So do you think it was like lost
in translation? The reason there's it's so far off from what should have really
happened. I don't think there's any loss in translationalation. I think the problem
is you've got you've got people with agendas writing about various cases, and not
just the Coin case, but a lot of cases, and they're injecting their
bias into it. They're giving you their cherry picking the information that confirms their
point of view or their belief structure and they're rejecting information that doesn't and I
try to look at everything with a dispassionate eye to see if we can get
toward the truth. So when I read things like what class had written about
this, I know it's I know, it's just a lot of garbage because
I was trained the same way, and we were all trained that way,
So I understood exactly what would have been going on in the cockpit, and
Class didn't understand what was going on in the cockpit. And that's and that
and that's you know, useful information that you know, I can bring to
these kind of cases. I think somebody trained in physics could be bringing some
very good information to other sorts of cases when we talk about that, or
somebody trained in chemical analysis when we get landing traces and that sort of thing,
can bring in their perspective to it that helps us understand what is happening
right right um. One of the cases I wanted to talk about, because
again melick I mentioned before, I think it's really fascinating is the nineteen fifty
two Washington Nationals in July nineteen fifty two. Now there is the issue that
happens with that particular those particular I guess it's more than one day, more
than one night incidents is that people will show these pictures of UFOs over Washington
and that is a false picture because of the reflections of the lights, the
street lights or something. Right, do you know the picture I'm talking about?
I know the picture talking about. I'm not sure it's a reflection of
the street lights, but the pictures clearly not of flying saucers or UFO.
Yeah, the pictures, folks. Yeah, That's what I wanted to get
across to the listener because a lot of people will research that see that picture
and think that's what they were seeing. But can you talk about what actually
did happen. Well, it kind of started with guys in the radar room
at Washington National Airport which is now Reagan National Airport, in seeing these blips
on the radar screen and they're acting not the way normal aircraft do. They
sometimes are moving very slowly, sometimes an acceler I think one of the calculations
the seven thousand miles an hour. So they're watching, they're they're communicating with
the air or out traffic, air traffic control or radars, and they're they're
talking to the guys at Andrew's Air Force Base in their control room, their
radar room, and at one point, you know, they're seeing the same
objects on three separate radars. So if it's a malfunction of the radars at
Washington National, well you're not going to have the same malfunction at the other
radar facilities. And they checked the radars and did the kind of thing,
the basic checks, and they can find no fault with the radars. They
eventually called for air intercepts and they ladged. They launched fighter planes to come
and check the area, and what they said was interesting. Both um Al
Chop and doing fourne who were in the radar room the second night told me
the same thing, which was that when the fighters appeared on the screens,
all the UFOs disappeared as if they were cloaking themselves or running away and hiding.
And when the fighters disappeared them the blips came back. There was one
point where a fighter pilot was talking about he was trying to intercept it and
got surrounded by these lights. You never saw whoops. I don't know what
happened. The lights here you are and uh they said that, uh you
fro you froze for a minute. We couldn't hear you talking. Oh I
got a I got a connection lost. Apparently we got it back. Yes,
we do, luckily, and we while we while we're taking this little
just to let you know, we do have a caller on the line.
So well finished the thought ahead. Yes, so we had the one where
the fighter plane was surrounded by the lights, but there was another intercept where
they actually got a radar lock on one of the targets from the aircraft.
So now we got four separate radars involved in the sighting. So it's a
very good sighting. The air Force set it was temperature inversions. End of
story. Don't need to talk about it anymore. But if you take a
look at the analysis in the book, you'll see where that explanation seems to
fall apart. Yeah, yeah, I think that's a real fascinating That whole
thing is so fascinating and the location of it and all we have Steve calling
from Oregon. Welcome to the show is Steve. Hey, guys, a
good show. I'm good. A little feedback. My question is on Roswell,
did you hear me? Okay, yeah, we hear you. Okay,
on Roswell, there seems like there's only one real question, and that
is why did the captain release the memo to the press. What's the best
answer Kevin's ever gotten as to why the captain release the memo to the press.
That wasn't It wasn't a captain. It was the base commander, Colonel
Blanchard who issued the press release. He did, he did it. I
have never fur out why he did that what Walter HoTT told me. And
Walter hot was the public affairs officer at the time, and he was the
one that took the information from Colonel Blanchard and then walked it to the various
media that Colonel Blanchard was attempting to explain what the UFOs were or trying to
try to tone down some of the discussion about flying saucers at the time,
which basically really makes no sense. I don't know a real good reason why
they would have issued the press release. It just doesn't make any sense to
me. It um it went to the four media in Roswell, and maybe
Blanchard didn't realize it was going to go out over the very the ape and
the UPI wires so it would become national news. Maybe he was just trying
to calm things down in the Roswell area. Didn't realize how far it would
would spread or how quickly it would spread. But both Um, George Walsh
and and and and and Frank Joyce Frank Joyce at the two radio stations immediately
put it on the wire. Walsh got it out first on the on his
wire service because he had a connection right there in his office, and Joyce
had to call the office in Albuquerque to have it sent out. Um.
But that was how it got out as those two guys put it, put
it on the wire. And maybe Blanchard didn't expect that to happen. But
I don't have a good answer for that question. I really don't. I
would like to. I would have liked to add Blanger that question. Yeah,
I've I've brought that up a number of times. Hang on to see
just for a second. I've brought that up a number of times on the
show. You know, why, um, why would it come out at
all? They never had to say basically anything, And you know, for
them to say there was a flying saucer, uh, doesn't make any sense.
I mean, if if they wanted to hide it, they could have
said you know weather balloon in the beginning, it's about go ahead, Steve.
Now you you said what I wanted to say. It just never made
any sense. Yeah, I agree, never made any sense. But we
don't have a good explanation for what fell at Roswell either. We all agree
something fell, but there's no good explanation for what it was. The Project
mobile explanation simply doesn't work because the leader of the project in ab Alama Gordo
at hollam An Air Force Base, Ala Army Airfield at the time, Um
wrote right in his field notes there was no flight number four. End of
story. So mogil is gone in that sense, and I've never found anything
else to h to explain what the debris would be. So there there we
are. Yeah, still okay, all right, it's great. So all
right, hey, thanks for the call, Steve. All Right, So
if someone wanted to call, we have about four or four minutes or so
left, and but that sit so it'd have to be a short call on
that number is eight five five four seven two five four eight three, and
looks like we might get one more call. Yep, hang in. We
have someone calling in right now, and I believe it's Dave. It looks
like his phone number, the Dave alopment that was in the in the chat
room. Nope, it's not okay, we have so Kevin, while I'm
waiting for this to be cleared, can you tell me how someone can find
your book? It's on Amazon right, Oh, it's on Amazon. Absolutely.
I'm not sure how far we're going to get distributed in the bookstores in
the day's environment, they may not matter very much. But it is available
at Amazon, Amazon dot com. It's the best of Project Bluebook comes from
Flying disc Press. That's Philip Mantle, right, Philip Mantels, Philip Mantels
m YEP publishing a house and we worked on this for a couple of years
putting putting it together. And I've tried to put a number of documents in
the book so you can see what the what the Air Force had to say
and see where the evidence takes us. And as I said, I brought
in information from beyond the end of Project Bluebook that affects the specific case.
We're talking about information that the Air Force wouldn't have had at the time,
and information has been gathered long after the events. Right, we have Brett
Brett Clark calling from Tennessee. Welcome to the show, Brett. You have
a question for our guests. We only have a couple of minutes left.
Oh yeah, thanks. I'd like to thank doctor Randall for his work,
his service, and just a couple of questions. One, if you anything's
transpired from the It was like a helicopter incident with the police chopper in Wales,
I believe back in two and sixteen. And the other question is what
chopper has the best glider ratio? Appreciate it? Thank you all right.
I have no knowledge of a helicopter incident in Wales. I may have read
it, I don't. I don't remember anything about it. I'm sure about
the glide ratio. What you do is if the engine fails um, there's
what's called a freewheeling clutch between the engine in the in the rotorhead and that
disengages. So you as you as you are falling out of the sky the
air continue continue to spin the rotor blades and as you get close to the
ground you do what to call flare out, So you kind of pull back
on the on the cyclic and you lift the nose and then you start bringing
up the collective and that changes the pitch of the rotor blades and it bites
the air so that you begin to slow down, and if you do it
right, you level the skids out at about three feet and then you can
cushion it on down and you land. And every every helicopter has the capabil
doing that. I don't know which one would glide the best. I would
imagine they all glide pretty much the same. Once the engine quits, you're
pretty much fallen out of the sky. That's right. That was when I
had a conversation with the helicopter pilot that I know. That was one of
the questions I had, you know, to fall like a rock, and
he basically explained what you just did. And I don't know if you know
anyone that's ever put that to a test, do you? Oh? I
have you have? Oh? Yeah, I had an engine failure two thousand
feet. Oh my god. And the thing that always struck me about that.
So the Army training was so good. I initiated the emergency procedures immediately
without even thinking about them. And then as I got everything set up and
I realized we're going down, and I made the Mayday call. I began
to physically think about, well, I got to do this, this and
this, and I'd already done it automatically and I put it down under ice
Patty didn't do any damage to the aircraft. Had a guy on board who
was going to d Rose leave Vietnam in about four days and he just wanted
to go for a helicopter ride and I said, sure, pop on board
if you want to. Guys doing what we call the ash and Trash mission
where we flew people and equipment around it. We had a mission every day.
One aircraft was detailed to do that sort of thing if you weren't with
the flight, and that was my day to do it. And the engine
quit at about two thousand feet. Oh my god. Well, Kevin,
that's it for the show. I want to thank you so much. We
had someone trying to call in just now. I'm sorry we can't take your
call. But thanks so much, Kevin, and as always, it's it's
always a great time talking to you. And you can catch your blog at
Say Your Say Your Radio Vote www. Kevin randoldot blogspot dot com. And
the book The Best Project Bluebook. Go buy copies of it and make me
rich. No what won't work that way by copies. Yeah, get your
thirty two cents, all right, all right, Kevin, take care,
all right everyone. So that's it for the show. Thank you so much
for listening, and remember to stay safe out there. We're going to be
back next week with Leslie Kane and I do believe we're gonna be talking to
someone about the new series on the Skinwalker Ranch, so make sure you check
that out on our blog over at podcast UFO. And thank you for all
the supporters, and thank you every single listener. Have a good night,
and remember to keep your eyes to the sky.