This is Seventh Sanctum and I am Kerry Ann. Thank you, John,
thank you so much for joining me. So my understanding of the story of
Ursula and the haunting of the Cage links back to a lot of ghost stories
that are really significant to the sent Osis area and Clacton. So could I
ask a little bit of how you become familiar with the story of Ursula and
what that meant for you? Yeah? Sure. Basically my interest is in
the witch trials generally, and I'm sure you and your listeners will know that
we have the dubious distinction of having executed more alleged witches than any other county
in England. I started off, as most people do, by looking at
the infamous villain about eighty years later, and I won't mention his name on
this podcast, but as a result of looking at the details of that,
I realized that there had been a trial. Obviously, we're talking about Ursula
and her co defendants some eighty years previously, and this, if anything,
I found more interesting because it's really the first time in English witch hunting history
where we have multiple defendants in the same trial. Previous to this, you
have won maybe two prosecutions a year in Essex, and on this one we
have thirteen. Some reports say fourteen, but I can only prove thirteen,
so we'll stick to what I can prove on this. So we've got thirteen
defendants in the same trial. This was unheard of and so I became particularly
interested in it. I should have said my other interest is in placing memorials
at significant sites around Essex where these atrocities took place. So this again is
one where it stimulated some activity, and following work I did on the Ursula
Chemp trial, we did manage to place a memorial outside Colster Castle, where
in fact they were all held prior to their trial. That's the basic background
of how I come into it. I'm a history nut, I'm a bit
of a nerd when it comes to the Essex witch trials, and this one
interested me more because of the unusualness of the fact that there were so many
accused in the same trial. I have a similar interest in the witch childs
throughout the England. It is a hot spot within Essex. One of the
things that I found is that sometimes when you talk about the witch trials,
we actually removed, we dehumanize the victims and the women and the men and
the children that went through what they went through. So and we just focus
on the bare facts, so we take away from fact these people with mums
and nuns and they were human beings. So is that something that's something I
found very difficult when doing research and looking at cases up and down the country.
Is that something you found difficult? You've got You've hit it exactly.
This is the biggest problem because the the official records say so little, and
when you talk to people who have these weird perceptions of what a witch was
or is for that matter, you get this just some sort of detached Oh,
yes, she was convicted of witchcraft, Well what does that mean?
Quite apart from, as you say, all the humanitarian concerns, And when
you look at the trial records, the official records tell you what that individual
was charged with, what the result of the case was. If you can
understand a little bit of Latin, it tells you they might have had property
or they might not. It tells you the sentence doesn't give you any of
the alleged evidence against them. The evidence wasn't kept normally and so you've got
no background whatsoever. And because of the nature of who these people were.
You wouldn't know anything about them until they came to notice for being charged for
something. And as you say that, the wonderfulness, if it can be
described as wonderful when you go into these and you find some local evidence that
gives you some background into those individuals and their families, how they lived,
the effect what we still don't know. We never will know the effect on
the families after the trials. Even if they were found innocent, which a
lot of them were, they've somehow got to get back into that community,
many of whom will have given evidence against them. How did they get back
in to the community. And as you say, the children that were involved
you very much, usually as witnesses and forced to give evidence. They've somehow
got to be assimilated into society and will never know how difficult that that was
for them. So, yeah, the the biggest plus for me is if
I can get evidence things that were written at the time. I very skeptical
when it comes to reading other people's accounts written fifty years sixty years later.
So as far as possible, I try and get detailed information that was written
at the time. Even then we have to be a bit careful because very
often they were written by the people who brought these people to trial in the
first place. But reading between the lines, you can quite often get a
good understanding of at least how people thought, how they reacted, and you
can draw inferences from that. And when you're talking about the time that the
witch trials take place, we're talking about locations and areas that are very like
their villages, and their community was centered around the church once and that was
their everything. So to be exiled from that and to be able to re
enter that community, this isn't a small thing. This is a disconnect from
everything they've known and loved. Everything they are a part of is taken away
from them. They go for this accusation, and it would have been quite
difficult for them to then go back into their community and their society. Yes,
absolutely that. I think that. The other thing we find hard to
understand is just how important the church was in those times and to be cast
out, sometimes literally from the church was a huge thing. The very idea
that you might even be buried outside of the protection of a churchyard was a
source of horror for a lot of people, something which perhaps we find a
little difficult to understand today, But it was a very real fear that you
wouldn't go to this so called place called heaven if you weren't buried in a
particular physical spot and the right words weren't said over your grave, that you
know, And whilst that might seem a little strange today, it was a
very very real fear. And yet bringing this into context with Saint Osis.
At the time we're talking about we're talking about a community of no more than
about three hundred people, so that is very significant that if you're cast out
of that community, which at that time you depended very much on each other's
support when times were hard, as they frequently were, and we you know,
we could make a big thing out of that, but that was the
normality. But then it was absolutely the thing that if you were short of
bread or cheese, your neighbor would support you. If they didn't support you,
then that was evidence that could be used against you in your trial.
If you had denied credit, that was evidence against you, and that is
unbelievable in this day and age, but that was the way it worked.
It could be said, no, she was denied credit, therefore there was
something very wrong with her, and that, you know, it's something that's
really hard to get our heads around to. One of the most absurd stories
that I come across. I was looking into the Ipswich witches and at a
time, and it's which they had a little commune for those that their husband
had passed away so they weren't able to went to the church by themselves,
so they gave them a little commune. They gave them a little spinning wheel,
and they would be confined to this area to keep them out of trouble
or mischief, I can imagine, and if one was to be found to
hold a Bible study, then they would be accused of having a coven.
So if you can imagine not even being able to attend your church and being
able to because your husband's no longer there and you're not able to do this
thing. If you are, then you're accused of spreading, Yeah, the
word of the devil. Yeah, I mean the first I don't want to
trivialize it, but I mean the idea that you can keep a group of
women quiet by giving them a spinning wheel. I don't think I don't think
they would cut much ice today, let alone. Then no, you're you're
right. In fact, it goes further until the nineteen fifties, nineteen fifties,
which I can remember. Of course you certainly won't, and I'm sure
none of your listeners will either, But the nineteen fifties, women were not
allowed back into church after giving birth until they'd been through a ritual, and
it was called the Churching of Women. So old ideas and horrific sort of
stigmatization was still right in the church in the twentieth century. Yeah, there
is some things that I've come across, and I think that was within my
lifetime, and it's just or within a lifetime that these things were still,
you know, taking place. When you think of the last person that was
trialed as a witch as well, wasn't I know, it was a long
time way, really wasn't in the concept of time and distance from where we
are in it with the witchcraft acts that women that wasn't that Well, the
nineteen fifty seven was the final abolition of that, and then you get the
Fraudulent Mediums Act and things that follow on from that. But so it seems
that even then you see that you get the sort of reluctance to sort of
genuinely just throw it all away. Well, we've got to keep some sort
of control over these people, you know, Yes, So could you tell
me a little bit about the story of Ursula please, Okay. As I
said before, with all these people is it's difficult to get much of a
handle on what they did before they came to notice, because basically they were
just surviving in their community. We know that she had either been married or
had had a relationship before these events, because she was also known by the
name of Ursula Gray. And we also know at the time of her arrest
she had a son, aged about seven or eight years and he was called
Thomas Rabbit, So that suggests that she'd had at least two relationships. We
don't know anything about mister Gray. We don't know anything about mister Rabbit because
at this time she was single. She was living in Saint Oseis, as
you say, and amongst a community of about three hundred people. There is
some suggestion that she's had some basic knowledge of herbs. And it's very basic,
really very basic. The story is, and it's in the evidence written
down, most of it written down by the magistrate Brian Darcy, that Ursula
apparently went to see a woman in Wheeley when she when Ursula was lame,
and the woman in Wheeley gave her a cock and ball story about how to
cure herself using hogs donge cherviil and breaking the ball of stuff with a knife
three times. I hope you're all making notes about this and going to try
it out when you're next lane, and then throwing the ball of dung into
the fire. Uh, and perhaps more interesting than dosing herself night and morning
with some hot ale into which was some herb John presumedly Saint John's wart,
which wouldn't be appropriate anyway, but maybe the warm ale might have helped.
However, having been given this wonderful remedy by the widow Cox from from Wheeley,
Ursula then that that became her mantra. And in the evidence there's that's
what she recommended to other people when they came to her lately for a cure
for lameness. And she would repeat this that she had been told by mother
Cox. So they give you some idea of her knowledge, which isn't you
know, wonderful. She may have known a bit more, but the bottom
line is it reflects what we were talking about earlier, that in times of
trouble, everybody would rally around and help. She did make a bit of
money by attending births. I hesitate to call her and midwife, because again,
all the women used to rally around. I mean, childbirth, as
we know, is dangerous enough these days, but in those days, and
I don't think we mentioned the date. We ought to mention the dates,
obviously fifteen eighty two. In those days, child mortality was extremely high.
We're talking about forty fifty percent of deaths at birth, not unusual at all.
So at a time of that sort of crisis, all the women,
and of course it would be only women at that time, would rally round
and all they could. Sometimes might do a bit of harm, but they
meant well, and things that today would not result in death, of course,
very often did. Then if they were faced with a breech birth,
for example, then that could very often mean the end. A C section
of course was out of the question, which explains why there were so many
infant mortalities. So Ursula certainly did go and help out at these situations.
I suspect that she when she did, get a reputation for being able to
help people. I don't think she worried at all. If people thought that
her skill in some part was due to some special powers, it probably gave
her a bit of cudos in the community. We'll never know. That's just
my feeling about it, because I say, there's no evidence to show that
she had a widespread knowledge generally, but she did help out. She made
a bit of a living wet nursing baby's children while their mothers went to work
mainly in the fields or at the priory nearby, which suggests that she was
still of child bearing age. That's the other really annoys me, really frustrating,
because in a lot of the court records they don't mention the defendant's ages,
and there's no mention anywhere of Virtula's age. But I put her probably
no more than a bearing in mind that Thomas her son was eight, I
would put her no more than about thirty two thirty three, and that's probably
older than she was, because I mean, you could get married easily at
thirteen or fourteen years of age in these times, and if you did lose
a husband, you found another one as quickly as possible, because living on
your own in those times was a real problem, male or female, mainly
for the females, it was a really big problem if you're on your own.
So there was a good strong community of women who have either been widowed
or for some other reason have been left on their own, and these became
friends. And amongst ursuless friends, we have a special friend, Elizabeth Bennett,
we have Alice Newman. And at the end of the trial we end
up with a number of other people being implicated. Because, although I'm jumping
ahead a bit, it follows the pattern of later trials where once one is
arrested and is forced to confess to certain things. In this case, oh
what was that? Sing? Squeaked? In this case spooky dog to it?
Yeah right, okay, where was that? Yeah? Yeah. So
in this case, once partially missions or confessions start coming out, they're told
and Brian Darcy is quite smug about this. He actually admits that he's promised
Ursula that she'll be dealt with more leniently if she confesses. Obviously, if
that was done today, the whole case would be thrown out, but he
thinks this is a good way to move forward. So as a result,
Ursula does and she mentions Elizabeth Bennett. Elizabeth Bennett mentions Joan p She and
the whole thing snowballs and eventually we get thirteen people. Was probably horrifying for
Brian Darcy because he thought he was going to have a nice little two or
three people trial, which would give him a bit of cuedos in the community,
because he was trying to impress his cousin who'd recently become Lord of the
manor. He'd become Lord Darcy, so same surname, but he Lord Darcy
lived at the priory and was a lot younger than Brian Darcy. So that
was probably the motivation for Brian to asked you to get involved within a tour
because up to that time, you know, you were you were quite happy
if you had somebody who was able to do some basic medicine in your community,
you'd welcome them. They were never called witches, never until something went
wrong. Then all of a sudden, overnight, Oh yeah, it's's a
witch. Look what she's done. So I ramble, I'm sorry, I
go, I get carried away. No, absolutely not. It's really fascinating
because it's a good way of understanding what was happening within that community and all
the different things that were added to the melting pot that created this situation where
this took place, and how the knock on effect that had for all the
other people that were linked to her as well. And I yeah, you
can see how it all took place, but at the same time, is
also unbelievable that it's happened. Is there anything in particularly you think at that
time as well outside of that? I know we spoke about what it was
like an immediate community for them within their village, and is there anything else
that you think was happening around about that time that could have compounded that.
I know in previous things we've looked at, there's been you know, it
could be that we had the Cold War in one we had another situation where
there was low low food. All these kind of things felt like there was
a punishment from the gods and then that's why this kind of burnt, that
set the fire alike, so to speak. Well, there were several several
things. Actually we had two successive bad winters. This all kicks off,
of course, in February March for the Sou're just coming out of the winter,
and this is when things are at their worst for people with their very
little resources or money, So that almost certainly is a factor. The fact
that Ursula was prepared to accept cheese instead of payment in cash for some of
the services she offered, which wasn't unusual anyway for people to give products rather
than money. There was also an unusual situation About three years before this,
Queen Elizabeth herself had visited to Ozien and had stayed, and almost certainly Brian
Darcy would have been with her because he was one of the dignitaries of the
village at the time. She stayed at the priory with the then Lord Darcy,
who had since died, and as I say that the younger Darcy had
taken over. Now, bearing in mind that these prosecutions were brought under Queen
Elizabeth's Witchcraft Act, which had come into force, this would be about fifteen
sixteen years before her visit. It's possible there was a conversation or a discussion.
I'm speculating here. We don't know, but the fact that Queen Elizabeth
had visited three years before may have been a factor in Brian Darcy suddenly taking
an interest in alleged witchcraft. Again, we'll never know. There had been
eighteen deaths over that winter. Bear in mind we're talking about population of three
hundred, that's all. We've got eighteen deaths, ten of which have been
children. So as you say, you know, when people say, oh,
yes, it's a signed from God or we're being penalized, who should
we blame, which of course doesn't change the same today who should we blame?
So there were certain factors you can point to and say yes, almost
certainly these had a bearing on what took place. So from my understanding of
Ursula Kemp is linked to the cage, and the conversations that were actually linked
us together actually was because I was visiting the area and I just wanted to
have a bit more information on the trials that had taken place, and to
go deeper than the thoughts around the cage and how quietly it's been a best
gated by paronal researchers alike. So that's kind of how our discussion started.
So would you did you share again with me how that come about and where
we are today with it? Yeah, gladly. The cage and if you
go to many villages around the country you will find they had a cage and
this was the local name for the village lock up. Of course, you
didn't have a policeman at that time. You didn't have a constabulary, you
didn't have a militia. In a small village, you had a local constable,
and that doesn't carry the same meaning as the word constable today. The
constable then was an employee of the lord of the manor and he was responsible
for giving out charitable donations from the taxes and also collecting taxes. But he
had the title of constable. He usually had property of his owns, so
he wasn't an ordinary man in the street. He usually had property of be
z own. I mentioned this because if you look at the sign, of
course, on the side of the cage, it says which is prison?
And I get quite unpopular because I have to say, well, actually it
was never a prison, let alone a which is prison, because a village
of three hundred people couldn't afford to have a prison with prison staff, and
you wouldn't have need of one. What it was the original building that was
there was the local lockup where if you had a drunk or somebody who'd done
something wrong, they would be thrown in there for the night because you had
no right to bail like you had now, and you would be taken before
the magistrate, Brian Darcy in this case at our time, and you'd be
dealt with the following morning. You wouldn't wake him up in the middle of
the night unless it was a murder or something anyway, So basically it was
a small building. Some of them are still standing. The originals are still
standing in Essex and Suffolk particularly, and you'll see they're a lot smaller than
the existing building at the cage. Now it's almost the cage just and is
almost certainly where the original building was. I've got photographs of a single story
building that was there before the present kitchen was built. It's the kitchen area
that we believe is the site of the original cage. And then it would
have housed two three people at the most. But you'd have to be pretty
friendly with other if you had three people in there and after they've been dealt
with by their magistrate. If it was a minor matter like drunkenness or a
small punch up, you'd be dealt with the following morning and you'd be on
your way. If it was a more serious offense, as in our case
here that we're talking about, then once Darcy had finished questioning you, you
would be charged by him and then you would go to a proper prison,
because you could not be kept in a cage. After you've been charged,
you have to go to a proper prison, and that was Colchester Castle,
and that's where Ursula and all her co defendants, after they've been questioned and
charged, they were all transferred to Colchester Castle where they stayed until their trial
later, which wasn't that much later luckily for them, because if you stay
in Coaster Castle Sells for very long, you probably die before you get to
trial, which happened, of course, eighty years later. So we have
that. That's the situation with the cage. Ursula of the thirteen defendants,
was in the cage the longest. She was in there for five nights.
But of course other people do Painter more Romantis and story about it and that
there's no reason why she would be kept there until her child. She couldn't
be kept there and it would be illegal to do that even in those days.
You had to go to a proper and to be honest, I don't
suppose they'd want to because they'd have to feed her and clothe her and look
after at their own expense, so she went there. There's also no reason
to suppose that any children were ever put there, because the children in this
were witnesses, and of course the idea of putting witnesses in the same small
area as the people they were testifying against doesn't bear scrutiny. So I have
heard some people say, yes that Thomas was put in there with his mother.
Well, it doesn't make any sense at all. What happened to him
is worth talking about because he somehow has got to survive while his mother is
being prosecuted, and there's nothing in writing anywhere to help us with what happened
to him during the trial or after. So getting back to the cage,
yes, it's probably on the site of where the original smaller building was that
was the cage. But I'm sorry it was never a prison, let alone
a witch's prison. Is there anything that you've heard over the years that you
know is absolutely not for example, in not being a witch's prison. There's
anything else that you've heard over the years that we could kind of debunk at
the moment, doesn't make sense or isn't logical, there's evidence against it.
I'm not an expert on the paranormal so there's no way I'm going to say
anything against that, because I don't have that gift, and I'm more than
ready to accept that there are people who who are either lucky enough, or
they might consider they're unlucky enough to be able to be sensitive to things in
these areas that I'm not. There's no doubt that there has been a tragedy
or two happen in that building, but that's in more recent years. There
was a suicide there in the I think the nineteen seventies might have been eighties,
but I haven't come prepared for that one. But certainly there was a
suicide there, so I can quite understand that if there are feelings, if
there is some resonance in there. But then you see, there aren't many
old buildings that haven't had a tragedy or two somewhere in their time. That's
the very nature of of how we live, so I can't there's no reason
to suppose that you know that there haven't been some some nasty incidents in their
Domestic violence is the most likely thing, to be honest, because it's all
too prevalent, and even more so in time when times were hard and people
had less recourse to to other other remedies. So I can quite understand that
there are disturbances and things there that some people are susceptible that I'm not.
But the the things that were done in the cage when there was an excavation,
I believe in the kitchen area, well, uh, I'm not quite
sure what was expected to be find. I know some some cattle bones were
found there, which I don't think was very helpful to anyone, but I
am probably not the right person to ask about that. Other than that,
I am certainly not saying that that there isn't some sort of feeling that can
be felt in these places, but I'm not one of those people who's been
aware of it. No, I understand what I was thinking more along the
line so of like a false collective memory. So, for example, with
the Sarah More case, Sarah is based in Leoncea. She was known as
the Sea Witch, and she was accused of the Great Flood of the Thames,
and it happened about seven years after she had died. But still to
this day, people that live in leon Sea, that have lived there all
their lives, still very much believed that Sarah Moore was the causation of this
great flood, even though there was seven years before she had passed away.
So I'm thinking about more in the community in terms of beliefs that are there
that there's evidence that actually says that we found that that I say we I
wasn't part of the committee, but there was found Sarah Moore's death certificate,
so he was able to show when she had passed away in comparison to the
actual day of the flood. So things like that that might have come up
that people in the community or people that within the paranoral community, whereas evidence
has stated that something might not have happened or did happen. Sorry, all
right, I know, I'm just trying to think of specific because it's an
area that I don't actually normally get to concern with when I do hear it.
No, I'm struggling there actually. In terms of paranorl research, I
think it's really good for people that do investigate the paranormal to have a wider
understanding of what actually has taken place. What are we investigating? Are we
investigating the force collective memory that's been put there or has been manifest did or
created over the years that have no, you know, other than a belief,
there's no evidence that it's happened, whereas knowing that something didn't happen when
they think they did it can be quite confusing when researching. I know that
when you spoke previously about the plaque that you had had put in Colchester,
can you tell me a little bit what what that means to you, what
it means to the community, and kind of and and how you was able
to do that. That actually was one of the proudest things that I've done.
There has never been a prober memorial in Colchester to those who were accused
of witchcraft. And I'm not just talking about those who were convicted and hanged
for witchcraft. We touched on it very early on in our conversation that even
if you were acquitted, and seventy five percent free of all cases were acquitted,
that has a huge impact on you and your family and getting back into
the community. So the memorial is to all those who were held in Colster
Castle on charges of witchcraft, whether they were convicted or not, because they
were all victims and genuine victims. Ten percent were men, ninety percent were
women, and we're looking at a total and I had to be careful when
I worked out the wording on it because I didn't want to be accused of
inflating figures. So i've said over two hundred I since now it's over three
hundred, and we're talking of a period of about one hundred and twenty years
starting from the Witchcraft Act of fifteen sixty three. So this did follow on
from when we actually I was able to rebury the remains that I recovered that
for a long time had been believed to be a camp and I thought that
this because we decided not to put a headstone over the grave, because when
the bones were originally covered, it didn't have a headstone. It wouldn't have
had a headstone. In fifteen eighty two, I thought well, there ought
to be a memorial, and so that's what triggered the move to have the
memorial and castle park fundraising. I thought it would be difficult. We got
the money raised within two weeks. That was the depth of feeling for it.
Everything went smoothly. The manager of the park I mentioned his first name,
Ian, he's now retired. He went round with me and we looked
at several places where the plaque could be and from start to finish. He
went out of his way and he pointed out a perfect place in the middle
of the rose bed beautifully shaped, and he said how about that. I
said great, and he suggested the shape of it so it would fit in
with the shape of the rose beds. Why was that so easy because he
by a fluke. He'd taken part in a film I'd made about the arts
villain that we meant that we won't mention it. He shan't not be named,
and he had played the part of a village constable for me in a
previous film that I'd made. So talk about karma. It works both ways.
You help somebody and they'll help you. So that was meant to be.
Coastal Council absolutely unanimous in their support across all parties and it was an
absolute joy to work on a project where nothing was put in my way and
so we had that. It was a small ceremony, not that many people
there. We did get on the local BBC news, but it meant so
much And since then I have managed to get another memorial at Chelmsford, not
as close as I would like, but close to the site where the hangings
took place. Manning Tree have now brought their own small plaque up in the
in the town square, which I had nothing to do with, although we
did go to the unveiling. So I'm just delighted. I think the time
is coming when people are finally realizing, yes, we have got to acknowledge
this. People have been spoken about sort of history and things they don't like,
but you can't ignore it. You know, history is all of our
history, not just the things we like. And if we ignore these people,
if we ignore the victims and only talk about the villains, then we're
doing the wrong thing. I agree, And so much has changed. There
have been lots of There's been lots of conversations with lots of different people in
lots of different ways. So I know there's been massive changes that are happenings
happened in Scotland trials, that's happened there. I know that there's a movement
Sisters of Spoon. I think they're called for Pendell for the Pendel, which
is amazing stuff, as well of the women of Pendell. So I know
that there's lots of there's lots of conversations, but I still don't believe people
understand the magnitude of death and you know, the absolute rain of terror that
flooded the country and beyond. People don't actually, yeah, they detach themselves
from the fact that these are people human. And it's really hard because in
the conversations that I've had when I do podcasts and I talk about the different
trials that have taken place, the different women that have been involved, where
these women have come from, what they've done, in the areas that they
lived, all the way through. I know I'm telling facts, I'm talking
about what happened and why I have to keep real minding people this is a
person, by the way, this actually happened to a person, and when
you think about what those people went through as well, is horrific. And
again, having these conversations and having these plaques put in place and having women's
names being honored makes a difference. It echoes through the time, but it
also makes a positive movement for the you know, for the present as well
and the future. It makes a big difference. These ripples and changes is
turning a little. Although we still do have the we still have people that
are a bit not as educated in what witchcraft or which will being a witch
is and they have those negative connotations that have kind of been dripped through social
media media and so forth. So, yeah, it is really interesting these
conversations you definitely need to be having. So in in terms of the work
that you've done, could you tell us a little bit more about that,
the films that you've made, sorry, and any literature anything along those lines.
The first film I made is based on I'll have to mention his name,
no, I'm looking at you know, all right, Well, it's
based on he who shall not be named in this podcast. But unlike other
films and documentaries, this is told from the victim's perspective. And this was
made in conjunction with the local theater company. We had a lottery grant to
make it. It's not available at the moment, I'm afraid because I'm looking
to sell part of the copyright of it to somebody else. So, but
there are clips of it on my YouTube channel, very short clips of it.
I'm hoping to get right. Well, I've got my own half the
right, so i'm hoping too. But anyway, that that was very well
received and had a local theater showing. But that's saw about twelve fifteen years
ago. I made that now. And then the second one is the Ursula
Kemp documentary that is on YouTube. It's not publicly available, but I'm very
happy to send you the link. So if you and your listeners would like
to look at the whole documentary, you're You're very welcome to. So that's
that. And I'm presently writing a book about Ursula, and it is a
fiction book, but it touches on what you're saying actually about the people and
the community. And I'm filling in the gaps with how I think they were
living and the family life and how they interacted with each other. So that's
still in the writing. I'm not a natural writer, so it's taking me
a lot longer than I thought it was going to take. So that's what
I'm doing at the moment. I am researching another Essex which who I believe
was the first to be executed under the Elizabethan Act. She is from Essex
and so she comes from Great Waltham. Her name is Elizabeth Lowes and she
was tried initially in a church court and she was so so unlucky, unbelievably
unlucky. If she'd have been tried in the church court, even though it
was a murder charge. She could not have been sentenced to death. The
church court could not sentence you to death. However, while the trial was
going on, Queen Elizabeth's law was passed and she was transferred to the civil
court for her trial to be heard there. So if they'd done the trial
six months earlier, she would have lived. As it was, she was
transferred to the civil court, was convicted. She pleaded pregnancy, so she
delayed her execution. Six months later she was found that she wasn't pregnant,
so she was hanged then, and about two and a half months ago,
I found the original trial documents in the church records. As I say,
the civil court cases did not keep that the witness statements. I've found the
witness statements from the church records. So work is still ongoing, and it's
those Eureka moments. I just love it. I just love it. I
was going to say, I'm sure this has been an absolute journey through all
the different all the different research that you've done on the two different women and
those beyond that. I'm sure it's been an absolute journey of massive hires.
It's not easy. There's a lot of there's a lot of hard slug.
But I also like talking you probably gather I like talking about it, and
quite often I go on too long. But but when I give, I
give talks to to a lot of witchy organizations obviously, but wis it is
more the women that are interested in the men. I wonder why that is.
But I always talk from the victim's perspective because they are the people.
They are the ones who were involved. And as you said, you know,
and we're both touched on it. What what is a witch? What?
What's a witch today? How do you define it? And a lot
of what we do today, things that some people do that can't be explained.
Does that make us witches because we do things that cannot be explained.
Are paranorm people, which is because they're sensitive to things that other people aren't,
you know, how do you define that? So I just love all
that. And also, I think is a really fascinating question for me is
why why are you? Why are why are you afraid? Where is there
to be afraid of? What is concerning you? And a lot of the
time it's bringing that conversation back onto them. What are you afraid of?
Is always an interesting question to ask a lot of it is through not really
having the not going away and doing their own research or educating themselves outside of
what is being given to them through through the through the normal means. God.
Yeah, a lot of people still have the seventeenth century definition of a
witch. That is what a witch is. And you know what, Disney
has got a hell of a lot to answer for. That's the first you
think about every child, Every child in this country from an early age has
it reinforced year after year after year. This is what a nasty witch looks
like. Witches are nasty. It's not small wonder really, that is such
a difficult thing to overcome. It is drummed into every child into this country,
in this country, that that's what witches are. And I agree.
And I had a really interesting conversation actually about Wizard of Oz and the good
Witch Glinda when she stole her sister's shoes after the house fell on her.
It's like, who is wicked who? After all? Yeah, you just
killed a witch and you pinched their shoes. Absolutely. Oh, thank you
so much for a chatting with me. I look forward so much to seeing
your documentary. I would love to have more conversations this topic. Of witches
and witchcraft, especially the historical factors of it, is so broad, they're
so interesting, and I love to have more of those conversations with you,
if ever you're you're happy to Yeah, sure, yeah, yeah, I
think. Thank you so much, and thank you. Welcome everyone that's listened
to us this evening, and we look forward to seeing you what I look
forward to seeing you next time. Thank you,