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This is Seventh Sanctum and I am
Kerry Ann. Thank you, John,

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thank you so much for joining me. So my understanding of the story of

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Ursula and the haunting of the Cage
links back to a lot of ghost stories

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that are really significant to the sent
Osis area and Clacton. So could I

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ask a little bit of how you
become familiar with the story of Ursula and

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what that meant for you? Yeah? Sure. Basically my interest is in

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the witch trials generally, and I'm
sure you and your listeners will know that

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we have the dubious distinction of having
executed more alleged witches than any other county

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in England. I started off,
as most people do, by looking at

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the infamous villain about eighty years later, and I won't mention his name on

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this podcast, but as a result
of looking at the details of that,

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I realized that there had been a
trial. Obviously, we're talking about Ursula

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and her co defendants some eighty years
previously, and this, if anything,

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I found more interesting because it's really
the first time in English witch hunting history

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where we have multiple defendants in the
same trial. Previous to this, you

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have won maybe two prosecutions a year
in Essex, and on this one we

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have thirteen. Some reports say fourteen, but I can only prove thirteen,

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so we'll stick to what I can
prove on this. So we've got thirteen

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defendants in the same trial. This
was unheard of and so I became particularly

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interested in it. I should have
said my other interest is in placing memorials

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at significant sites around Essex where these
atrocities took place. So this again is

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one where it stimulated some activity,
and following work I did on the Ursula

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Chemp trial, we did manage to
place a memorial outside Colster Castle, where

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in fact they were all held prior
to their trial. That's the basic background

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of how I come into it.
I'm a history nut, I'm a bit

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of a nerd when it comes to
the Essex witch trials, and this one

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interested me more because of the unusualness
of the fact that there were so many

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accused in the same trial. I
have a similar interest in the witch childs

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throughout the England. It is a
hot spot within Essex. One of the

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things that I found is that sometimes
when you talk about the witch trials,

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we actually removed, we dehumanize the
victims and the women and the men and

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the children that went through what they
went through. So and we just focus

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on the bare facts, so we
take away from fact these people with mums

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and nuns and they were human beings. So is that something that's something I

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found very difficult when doing research and
looking at cases up and down the country.

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Is that something you found difficult?
You've got You've hit it exactly.

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This is the biggest problem because the
the official records say so little, and

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when you talk to people who have
these weird perceptions of what a witch was

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or is for that matter, you
get this just some sort of detached Oh,

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yes, she was convicted of witchcraft, Well what does that mean?

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Quite apart from, as you say, all the humanitarian concerns, And when

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you look at the trial records,
the official records tell you what that individual

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was charged with, what the result
of the case was. If you can

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understand a little bit of Latin,
it tells you they might have had property

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or they might not. It tells
you the sentence doesn't give you any of

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the alleged evidence against them. The
evidence wasn't kept normally and so you've got

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no background whatsoever. And because of
the nature of who these people were.

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You wouldn't know anything about them until
they came to notice for being charged for

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something. And as you say that, the wonderfulness, if it can be

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described as wonderful when you go into
these and you find some local evidence that

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gives you some background into those individuals
and their families, how they lived,

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the effect what we still don't know. We never will know the effect on

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the families after the trials. Even
if they were found innocent, which a

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lot of them were, they've somehow
got to get back into that community,

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many of whom will have given evidence
against them. How did they get back

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in to the community. And as
you say, the children that were involved

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you very much, usually as witnesses
and forced to give evidence. They've somehow

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got to be assimilated into society and
will never know how difficult that that was

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for them. So, yeah,
the the biggest plus for me is if

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I can get evidence things that were
written at the time. I very skeptical

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when it comes to reading other people's
accounts written fifty years sixty years later.

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So as far as possible, I
try and get detailed information that was written

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at the time. Even then we
have to be a bit careful because very

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often they were written by the people
who brought these people to trial in the

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first place. But reading between the
lines, you can quite often get a

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good understanding of at least how people
thought, how they reacted, and you

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can draw inferences from that. And
when you're talking about the time that the

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witch trials take place, we're talking
about locations and areas that are very like

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their villages, and their community was
centered around the church once and that was

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their everything. So to be exiled
from that and to be able to re

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enter that community, this isn't a
small thing. This is a disconnect from

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everything they've known and loved. Everything
they are a part of is taken away

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from them. They go for this
accusation, and it would have been quite

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difficult for them to then go back
into their community and their society. Yes,

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absolutely that. I think that.
The other thing we find hard to

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understand is just how important the church
was in those times and to be cast

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out, sometimes literally from the church
was a huge thing. The very idea

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that you might even be buried outside
of the protection of a churchyard was a

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source of horror for a lot of
people, something which perhaps we find a

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little difficult to understand today, But
it was a very real fear that you

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wouldn't go to this so called place
called heaven if you weren't buried in a

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particular physical spot and the right words
weren't said over your grave, that you

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know, And whilst that might seem
a little strange today, it was a

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very very real fear. And yet
bringing this into context with Saint Osis.

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At the time we're talking about we're
talking about a community of no more than

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about three hundred people, so that
is very significant that if you're cast out

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of that community, which at that
time you depended very much on each other's

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support when times were hard, as
they frequently were, and we you know,

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we could make a big thing out
of that, but that was the

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normality. But then it was absolutely
the thing that if you were short of

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bread or cheese, your neighbor would
support you. If they didn't support you,

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then that was evidence that could be
used against you in your trial.

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If you had denied credit, that
was evidence against you, and that is

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unbelievable in this day and age,
but that was the way it worked.

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It could be said, no,
she was denied credit, therefore there was

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something very wrong with her, and
that, you know, it's something that's

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really hard to get our heads around
to. One of the most absurd stories

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that I come across. I was
looking into the Ipswich witches and at a

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time, and it's which they had
a little commune for those that their husband

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had passed away so they weren't able
to went to the church by themselves,

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so they gave them a little commune. They gave them a little spinning wheel,

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and they would be confined to this
area to keep them out of trouble

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or mischief, I can imagine,
and if one was to be found to

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hold a Bible study, then they
would be accused of having a coven.

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So if you can imagine not even
being able to attend your church and being

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able to because your husband's no longer
there and you're not able to do this

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thing. If you are, then
you're accused of spreading, Yeah, the

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word of the devil. Yeah,
I mean the first I don't want to

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trivialize it, but I mean the
idea that you can keep a group of

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women quiet by giving them a spinning
wheel. I don't think I don't think

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they would cut much ice today,
let alone. Then no, you're you're

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right. In fact, it goes
further until the nineteen fifties, nineteen fifties,

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which I can remember. Of course
you certainly won't, and I'm sure

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none of your listeners will either,
But the nineteen fifties, women were not

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allowed back into church after giving birth
until they'd been through a ritual, and

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it was called the Churching of Women. So old ideas and horrific sort of

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stigmatization was still right in the church
in the twentieth century. Yeah, there

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is some things that I've come across, and I think that was within my

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lifetime, and it's just or within
a lifetime that these things were still,

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you know, taking place. When
you think of the last person that was

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trialed as a witch as well,
wasn't I know, it was a long

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time way, really wasn't in the
concept of time and distance from where we

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are in it with the witchcraft acts
that women that wasn't that Well, the

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nineteen fifty seven was the final abolition
of that, and then you get the

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Fraudulent Mediums Act and things that follow
on from that. But so it seems

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that even then you see that you
get the sort of reluctance to sort of

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genuinely just throw it all away.
Well, we've got to keep some sort

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of control over these people, you
know, Yes, So could you tell

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me a little bit about the story
of Ursula please, Okay. As I

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said before, with all these people
is it's difficult to get much of a

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handle on what they did before they
came to notice, because basically they were

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just surviving in their community. We
know that she had either been married or

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had had a relationship before these events, because she was also known by the

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name of Ursula Gray. And we
also know at the time of her arrest

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she had a son, aged about
seven or eight years and he was called

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Thomas Rabbit, So that suggests that
she'd had at least two relationships. We

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don't know anything about mister Gray.
We don't know anything about mister Rabbit because

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at this time she was single.
She was living in Saint Oseis, as

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you say, and amongst a community
of about three hundred people. There is

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some suggestion that she's had some basic
knowledge of herbs. And it's very basic,

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really very basic. The story is, and it's in the evidence written

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down, most of it written down
by the magistrate Brian Darcy, that Ursula

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apparently went to see a woman in
Wheeley when she when Ursula was lame,

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and the woman in Wheeley gave her
a cock and ball story about how to

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cure herself using hogs donge cherviil and
breaking the ball of stuff with a knife

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three times. I hope you're all
making notes about this and going to try

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it out when you're next lane,
and then throwing the ball of dung into

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the fire. Uh, and perhaps
more interesting than dosing herself night and morning

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with some hot ale into which was
some herb John presumedly Saint John's wart,

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which wouldn't be appropriate anyway, but
maybe the warm ale might have helped.

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However, having been given this wonderful
remedy by the widow Cox from from Wheeley,

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Ursula then that that became her mantra. And in the evidence there's that's

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what she recommended to other people when
they came to her lately for a cure

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for lameness. And she would repeat
this that she had been told by mother

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Cox. So they give you some
idea of her knowledge, which isn't you

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know, wonderful. She may have
known a bit more, but the bottom

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line is it reflects what we were
talking about earlier, that in times of

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trouble, everybody would rally around and
help. She did make a bit of

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money by attending births. I hesitate
to call her and midwife, because again,

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all the women used to rally around. I mean, childbirth, as

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we know, is dangerous enough these
days, but in those days, and

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I don't think we mentioned the date. We ought to mention the dates,

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obviously fifteen eighty two. In those
days, child mortality was extremely high.

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We're talking about forty fifty percent of
deaths at birth, not unusual at all.

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So at a time of that sort
of crisis, all the women,

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and of course it would be only
women at that time, would rally round

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and all they could. Sometimes might
do a bit of harm, but they

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meant well, and things that today
would not result in death, of course,

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very often did. Then if they
were faced with a breech birth,

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for example, then that could very
often mean the end. A C section

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of course was out of the question, which explains why there were so many

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infant mortalities. So Ursula certainly did
go and help out at these situations.

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I suspect that she when she did, get a reputation for being able to

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help people. I don't think she
worried at all. If people thought that

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her skill in some part was due
to some special powers, it probably gave

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her a bit of cudos in the
community. We'll never know. That's just

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my feeling about it, because I
say, there's no evidence to show that

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she had a widespread knowledge generally,
but she did help out. She made

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a bit of a living wet nursing
baby's children while their mothers went to work

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mainly in the fields or at the
priory nearby, which suggests that she was

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still of child bearing age. That's
the other really annoys me, really frustrating,

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because in a lot of the court
records they don't mention the defendant's ages,

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and there's no mention anywhere of Virtula's
age. But I put her probably

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no more than a bearing in mind
that Thomas her son was eight, I

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would put her no more than about
thirty two thirty three, and that's probably

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older than she was, because I
mean, you could get married easily at

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thirteen or fourteen years of age in
these times, and if you did lose

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a husband, you found another one
as quickly as possible, because living on

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your own in those times was a
real problem, male or female, mainly

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for the females, it was a
really big problem if you're on your own.

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So there was a good strong community
of women who have either been widowed

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or for some other reason have been
left on their own, and these became

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friends. And amongst ursuless friends,
we have a special friend, Elizabeth Bennett,

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we have Alice Newman. And at
the end of the trial we end

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up with a number of other people
being implicated. Because, although I'm jumping

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ahead a bit, it follows the
pattern of later trials where once one is

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arrested and is forced to confess to
certain things. In this case, oh

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what was that? Sing? Squeaked? In this case spooky dog to it?

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Yeah right, okay, where was
that? Yeah? Yeah. So

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in this case, once partially missions
or confessions start coming out, they're told

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and Brian Darcy is quite smug about
this. He actually admits that he's promised

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Ursula that she'll be dealt with more
leniently if she confesses. Obviously, if

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that was done today, the whole
case would be thrown out, but he

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thinks this is a good way to
move forward. So as a result,

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Ursula does and she mentions Elizabeth Bennett. Elizabeth Bennett mentions Joan p She and

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the whole thing snowballs and eventually we
get thirteen people. Was probably horrifying for

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Brian Darcy because he thought he was
going to have a nice little two or

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three people trial, which would give
him a bit of cuedos in the community,

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because he was trying to impress his
cousin who'd recently become Lord of the

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manor. He'd become Lord Darcy,
so same surname, but he Lord Darcy

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lived at the priory and was a
lot younger than Brian Darcy. So that

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was probably the motivation for Brian to
asked you to get involved within a tour

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because up to that time, you
know, you were you were quite happy

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if you had somebody who was able
to do some basic medicine in your community,

215
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you'd welcome them. They were never
called witches, never until something went

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wrong. Then all of a sudden, overnight, Oh yeah, it's's a

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witch. Look what she's done.
So I ramble, I'm sorry, I

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go, I get carried away.
No, absolutely not. It's really fascinating

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00:19:30,000 --> 00:19:34,279
because it's a good way of understanding
what was happening within that community and all

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00:19:34,359 --> 00:19:40,640
the different things that were added to
the melting pot that created this situation where

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this took place, and how the
knock on effect that had for all the

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other people that were linked to her
as well. And I yeah, you

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can see how it all took place, but at the same time, is

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also unbelievable that it's happened. Is
there anything in particularly you think at that

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time as well outside of that?
I know we spoke about what it was

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like an immediate community for them within
their village, and is there anything else

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that you think was happening around about
that time that could have compounded that.

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I know in previous things we've looked
at, there's been you know, it

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could be that we had the Cold
War in one we had another situation where

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there was low low food. All
these kind of things felt like there was

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a punishment from the gods and then
that's why this kind of burnt, that

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set the fire alike, so to
speak. Well, there were several several

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things. Actually we had two successive
bad winters. This all kicks off,

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of course, in February March for
the Sou're just coming out of the winter,

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and this is when things are at
their worst for people with their very

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little resources or money, So that
almost certainly is a factor. The fact

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that Ursula was prepared to accept cheese
instead of payment in cash for some of

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the services she offered, which wasn't
unusual anyway for people to give products rather

239
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than money. There was also an
unusual situation About three years before this,

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Queen Elizabeth herself had visited to Ozien
and had stayed, and almost certainly Brian

241
00:21:15,680 --> 00:21:21,279
Darcy would have been with her because
he was one of the dignitaries of the

242
00:21:21,400 --> 00:21:26,200
village at the time. She stayed
at the priory with the then Lord Darcy,

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00:21:26,559 --> 00:21:30,880
who had since died, and as
I say that the younger Darcy had

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00:21:30,920 --> 00:21:36,400
taken over. Now, bearing in
mind that these prosecutions were brought under Queen

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Elizabeth's Witchcraft Act, which had come
into force, this would be about fifteen

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00:21:44,759 --> 00:21:49,000
sixteen years before her visit. It's
possible there was a conversation or a discussion.

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I'm speculating here. We don't know, but the fact that Queen Elizabeth

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had visited three years before may have
been a factor in Brian Darcy suddenly taking

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an interest in alleged witchcraft. Again, we'll never know. There had been

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00:22:04,079 --> 00:22:10,559
eighteen deaths over that winter. Bear
in mind we're talking about population of three

251
00:22:10,640 --> 00:22:14,799
hundred, that's all. We've got
eighteen deaths, ten of which have been

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children. So as you say,
you know, when people say, oh,

253
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yes, it's a signed from God
or we're being penalized, who should

254
00:22:22,759 --> 00:22:26,519
we blame, which of course doesn't
change the same today who should we blame?

255
00:22:27,119 --> 00:22:33,400
So there were certain factors you can
point to and say yes, almost

256
00:22:33,400 --> 00:22:40,599
certainly these had a bearing on what
took place. So from my understanding of

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Ursula Kemp is linked to the cage, and the conversations that were actually linked

258
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us together actually was because I was
visiting the area and I just wanted to

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have a bit more information on the
trials that had taken place, and to

260
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go deeper than the thoughts around the
cage and how quietly it's been a best

261
00:23:00,160 --> 00:23:04,559
gated by paronal researchers alike. So
that's kind of how our discussion started.

262
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So would you did you share again
with me how that come about and where

263
00:23:11,720 --> 00:23:17,640
we are today with it? Yeah, gladly. The cage and if you

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go to many villages around the country
you will find they had a cage and

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this was the local name for the
village lock up. Of course, you

266
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didn't have a policeman at that time. You didn't have a constabulary, you

267
00:23:32,720 --> 00:23:37,200
didn't have a militia. In a
small village, you had a local constable,

268
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and that doesn't carry the same meaning
as the word constable today. The

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constable then was an employee of the
lord of the manor and he was responsible

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for giving out charitable donations from the
taxes and also collecting taxes. But he

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had the title of constable. He
usually had property of his owns, so

272
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he wasn't an ordinary man in the
street. He usually had property of be

273
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z own. I mentioned this because
if you look at the sign, of

274
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course, on the side of the
cage, it says which is prison?

275
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And I get quite unpopular because I
have to say, well, actually it

276
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was never a prison, let alone
a which is prison, because a village

277
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of three hundred people couldn't afford to
have a prison with prison staff, and

278
00:24:27,799 --> 00:24:33,400
you wouldn't have need of one.
What it was the original building that was

279
00:24:33,519 --> 00:24:40,279
there was the local lockup where if
you had a drunk or somebody who'd done

280
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something wrong, they would be thrown
in there for the night because you had

281
00:24:44,680 --> 00:24:48,400
no right to bail like you had
now, and you would be taken before

282
00:24:48,440 --> 00:24:52,839
the magistrate, Brian Darcy in this
case at our time, and you'd be

283
00:24:52,880 --> 00:24:56,839
dealt with the following morning. You
wouldn't wake him up in the middle of

284
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the night unless it was a murder
or something anyway, So basically it was

285
00:25:02,960 --> 00:25:07,279
a small building. Some of them
are still standing. The originals are still

286
00:25:07,279 --> 00:25:12,799
standing in Essex and Suffolk particularly,
and you'll see they're a lot smaller than

287
00:25:14,119 --> 00:25:18,200
the existing building at the cage.
Now it's almost the cage just and is

288
00:25:18,240 --> 00:25:25,880
almost certainly where the original building was. I've got photographs of a single story

289
00:25:25,880 --> 00:25:30,039
building that was there before the present
kitchen was built. It's the kitchen area

290
00:25:30,480 --> 00:25:36,240
that we believe is the site of
the original cage. And then it would

291
00:25:36,240 --> 00:25:40,799
have housed two three people at the
most. But you'd have to be pretty

292
00:25:40,799 --> 00:25:45,200
friendly with other if you had three
people in there and after they've been dealt

293
00:25:45,240 --> 00:25:48,759
with by their magistrate. If it
was a minor matter like drunkenness or a

294
00:25:48,799 --> 00:25:53,119
small punch up, you'd be dealt
with the following morning and you'd be on

295
00:25:53,160 --> 00:25:57,200
your way. If it was a
more serious offense, as in our case

296
00:25:57,279 --> 00:26:03,200
here that we're talking about, then
once Darcy had finished questioning you, you

297
00:26:03,319 --> 00:26:07,119
would be charged by him and then
you would go to a proper prison,

298
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because you could not be kept in
a cage. After you've been charged,

299
00:26:12,240 --> 00:26:15,960
you have to go to a proper
prison, and that was Colchester Castle,

300
00:26:17,839 --> 00:26:22,359
and that's where Ursula and all her
co defendants, after they've been questioned and

301
00:26:22,559 --> 00:26:29,000
charged, they were all transferred to
Colchester Castle where they stayed until their trial

302
00:26:29,200 --> 00:26:33,640
later, which wasn't that much later
luckily for them, because if you stay

303
00:26:33,640 --> 00:26:37,960
in Coaster Castle Sells for very long, you probably die before you get to

304
00:26:37,079 --> 00:26:42,680
trial, which happened, of course, eighty years later. So we have

305
00:26:42,839 --> 00:26:48,319
that. That's the situation with the
cage. Ursula of the thirteen defendants,

306
00:26:48,440 --> 00:26:52,279
was in the cage the longest.
She was in there for five nights.

307
00:26:53,960 --> 00:27:03,519
But of course other people do Painter
more Romantis and story about it and that

308
00:27:03,920 --> 00:27:07,880
there's no reason why she would be
kept there until her child. She couldn't

309
00:27:07,920 --> 00:27:12,119
be kept there and it would be
illegal to do that even in those days.

310
00:27:12,160 --> 00:27:17,319
You had to go to a proper
and to be honest, I don't

311
00:27:17,319 --> 00:27:19,519
suppose they'd want to because they'd have
to feed her and clothe her and look

312
00:27:19,559 --> 00:27:26,759
after at their own expense, so
she went there. There's also no reason

313
00:27:26,799 --> 00:27:30,640
to suppose that any children were ever
put there, because the children in this

314
00:27:30,920 --> 00:27:37,880
were witnesses, and of course the
idea of putting witnesses in the same small

315
00:27:38,440 --> 00:27:45,440
area as the people they were testifying
against doesn't bear scrutiny. So I have

316
00:27:45,559 --> 00:27:49,400
heard some people say, yes that
Thomas was put in there with his mother.

317
00:27:49,599 --> 00:27:53,359
Well, it doesn't make any sense
at all. What happened to him

318
00:27:53,559 --> 00:28:00,480
is worth talking about because he somehow
has got to survive while his mother is

319
00:28:00,480 --> 00:28:07,279
being prosecuted, and there's nothing in
writing anywhere to help us with what happened

320
00:28:07,319 --> 00:28:12,759
to him during the trial or after. So getting back to the cage,

321
00:28:14,000 --> 00:28:18,920
yes, it's probably on the site
of where the original smaller building was that

322
00:28:19,039 --> 00:28:23,279
was the cage. But I'm sorry
it was never a prison, let alone

323
00:28:23,319 --> 00:28:29,559
a witch's prison. Is there anything
that you've heard over the years that you

324
00:28:29,720 --> 00:28:34,920
know is absolutely not for example,
in not being a witch's prison. There's

325
00:28:34,920 --> 00:28:38,279
anything else that you've heard over the
years that we could kind of debunk at

326
00:28:38,279 --> 00:28:42,279
the moment, doesn't make sense or
isn't logical, there's evidence against it.

327
00:28:45,079 --> 00:28:49,480
I'm not an expert on the paranormal
so there's no way I'm going to say

328
00:28:49,519 --> 00:28:56,160
anything against that, because I don't
have that gift, and I'm more than

329
00:28:56,200 --> 00:29:03,279
ready to accept that there are people
who who are either lucky enough, or

330
00:29:03,440 --> 00:29:08,079
they might consider they're unlucky enough to
be able to be sensitive to things in

331
00:29:08,119 --> 00:29:15,880
these areas that I'm not. There's
no doubt that there has been a tragedy

332
00:29:15,960 --> 00:29:19,960
or two happen in that building,
but that's in more recent years. There

333
00:29:21,039 --> 00:29:26,880
was a suicide there in the I
think the nineteen seventies might have been eighties,

334
00:29:26,920 --> 00:29:33,240
but I haven't come prepared for that
one. But certainly there was a

335
00:29:33,279 --> 00:29:45,839
suicide there, so I can quite
understand that if there are feelings, if

336
00:29:45,920 --> 00:29:52,640
there is some resonance in there.
But then you see, there aren't many

337
00:29:52,720 --> 00:29:57,920
old buildings that haven't had a tragedy
or two somewhere in their time. That's

338
00:29:57,960 --> 00:30:03,599
the very nature of of how we
live, so I can't there's no reason

339
00:30:03,680 --> 00:30:10,279
to suppose that you know that there
haven't been some some nasty incidents in their

340
00:30:10,319 --> 00:30:12,880
Domestic violence is the most likely thing, to be honest, because it's all

341
00:30:12,920 --> 00:30:18,799
too prevalent, and even more so
in time when times were hard and people

342
00:30:18,880 --> 00:30:23,720
had less recourse to to other other
remedies. So I can quite understand that

343
00:30:23,720 --> 00:30:29,119
there are disturbances and things there that
some people are susceptible that I'm not.

344
00:30:30,039 --> 00:30:34,279
But the the things that were done
in the cage when there was an excavation,

345
00:30:34,400 --> 00:30:40,799
I believe in the kitchen area,
well, uh, I'm not quite

346
00:30:40,799 --> 00:30:44,559
sure what was expected to be find. I know some some cattle bones were

347
00:30:44,559 --> 00:30:48,839
found there, which I don't think
was very helpful to anyone, but I

348
00:30:49,279 --> 00:30:55,880
am probably not the right person to
ask about that. Other than that,

349
00:30:56,599 --> 00:31:03,839
I am certainly not saying that that
there isn't some sort of feeling that can

350
00:31:03,920 --> 00:31:07,440
be felt in these places, but
I'm not one of those people who's been

351
00:31:08,000 --> 00:31:14,920
aware of it. No, I
understand what I was thinking more along the

352
00:31:14,960 --> 00:31:18,079
line so of like a false collective
memory. So, for example, with

353
00:31:18,200 --> 00:31:25,559
the Sarah More case, Sarah is
based in Leoncea. She was known as

354
00:31:25,559 --> 00:31:30,599
the Sea Witch, and she was
accused of the Great Flood of the Thames,

355
00:31:32,160 --> 00:31:34,839
and it happened about seven years after
she had died. But still to

356
00:31:34,880 --> 00:31:38,240
this day, people that live in
leon Sea, that have lived there all

357
00:31:38,279 --> 00:31:42,279
their lives, still very much believed
that Sarah Moore was the causation of this

358
00:31:42,480 --> 00:31:47,559
great flood, even though there was
seven years before she had passed away.

359
00:31:48,880 --> 00:31:52,680
So I'm thinking about more in the
community in terms of beliefs that are there

360
00:31:52,160 --> 00:31:56,960
that there's evidence that actually says that
we found that that I say we I

361
00:31:56,039 --> 00:32:01,960
wasn't part of the committee, but
there was found Sarah Moore's death certificate,

362
00:32:02,039 --> 00:32:07,079
so he was able to show when
she had passed away in comparison to the

363
00:32:07,119 --> 00:32:10,480
actual day of the flood. So
things like that that might have come up

364
00:32:10,519 --> 00:32:15,680
that people in the community or people
that within the paranoral community, whereas evidence

365
00:32:15,720 --> 00:32:23,960
has stated that something might not have
happened or did happen. Sorry, all

366
00:32:24,039 --> 00:32:30,519
right, I know, I'm just
trying to think of specific because it's an

367
00:32:30,559 --> 00:32:37,559
area that I don't actually normally get
to concern with when I do hear it.

368
00:32:40,119 --> 00:32:45,279
No, I'm struggling there actually.
In terms of paranorl research, I

369
00:32:45,279 --> 00:32:52,319
think it's really good for people that
do investigate the paranormal to have a wider

370
00:32:52,400 --> 00:32:55,039
understanding of what actually has taken place. What are we investigating? Are we

371
00:32:55,119 --> 00:33:00,480
investigating the force collective memory that's been
put there or has been manifest did or

372
00:33:00,519 --> 00:33:06,319
created over the years that have no, you know, other than a belief,

373
00:33:06,519 --> 00:33:09,759
there's no evidence that it's happened,
whereas knowing that something didn't happen when

374
00:33:09,759 --> 00:33:15,359
they think they did it can be
quite confusing when researching. I know that

375
00:33:15,400 --> 00:33:22,000
when you spoke previously about the plaque
that you had had put in Colchester,

376
00:33:22,400 --> 00:33:24,359
can you tell me a little bit
what what that means to you, what

377
00:33:24,400 --> 00:33:29,079
it means to the community, and
kind of and and how you was able

378
00:33:29,119 --> 00:33:35,839
to do that. That actually was
one of the proudest things that I've done.

379
00:33:37,079 --> 00:33:44,680
There has never been a prober memorial
in Colchester to those who were accused

380
00:33:44,720 --> 00:33:49,160
of witchcraft. And I'm not just
talking about those who were convicted and hanged

381
00:33:49,720 --> 00:33:57,160
for witchcraft. We touched on it
very early on in our conversation that even

382
00:33:57,200 --> 00:34:01,519
if you were acquitted, and seventy
five percent free of all cases were acquitted,

383
00:34:02,440 --> 00:34:07,079
that has a huge impact on you
and your family and getting back into

384
00:34:07,119 --> 00:34:12,480
the community. So the memorial is
to all those who were held in Colster

385
00:34:12,639 --> 00:34:17,239
Castle on charges of witchcraft, whether
they were convicted or not, because they

386
00:34:17,280 --> 00:34:22,159
were all victims and genuine victims.
Ten percent were men, ninety percent were

387
00:34:22,159 --> 00:34:29,119
women, and we're looking at a
total and I had to be careful when

388
00:34:29,159 --> 00:34:31,199
I worked out the wording on it
because I didn't want to be accused of

389
00:34:31,599 --> 00:34:37,239
inflating figures. So i've said over
two hundred I since now it's over three

390
00:34:37,320 --> 00:34:42,639
hundred, and we're talking of a
period of about one hundred and twenty years

391
00:34:42,679 --> 00:34:50,639
starting from the Witchcraft Act of fifteen
sixty three. So this did follow on

392
00:34:50,760 --> 00:34:55,920
from when we actually I was able
to rebury the remains that I recovered that

393
00:34:57,119 --> 00:35:01,639
for a long time had been believed
to be a camp and I thought that

394
00:35:01,760 --> 00:35:07,519
this because we decided not to put
a headstone over the grave, because when

395
00:35:07,960 --> 00:35:12,639
the bones were originally covered, it
didn't have a headstone. It wouldn't have

396
00:35:12,679 --> 00:35:15,920
had a headstone. In fifteen eighty
two, I thought well, there ought

397
00:35:15,920 --> 00:35:22,119
to be a memorial, and so
that's what triggered the move to have the

398
00:35:22,119 --> 00:35:25,719
memorial and castle park fundraising. I
thought it would be difficult. We got

399
00:35:25,800 --> 00:35:30,719
the money raised within two weeks.
That was the depth of feeling for it.

400
00:35:31,960 --> 00:35:38,480
Everything went smoothly. The manager of
the park I mentioned his first name,

401
00:35:38,559 --> 00:35:44,079
Ian, he's now retired. He
went round with me and we looked

402
00:35:44,079 --> 00:35:50,079
at several places where the plaque could
be and from start to finish. He

403
00:35:50,119 --> 00:35:54,960
went out of his way and he
pointed out a perfect place in the middle

404
00:35:54,960 --> 00:36:00,679
of the rose bed beautifully shaped,
and he said how about that. I

405
00:36:00,719 --> 00:36:05,960
said great, and he suggested the
shape of it so it would fit in

406
00:36:06,360 --> 00:36:12,199
with the shape of the rose beds. Why was that so easy because he

407
00:36:12,599 --> 00:36:15,559
by a fluke. He'd taken part
in a film I'd made about the arts

408
00:36:15,639 --> 00:36:20,039
villain that we meant that we won't
mention it. He shan't not be named,

409
00:36:20,880 --> 00:36:23,519
and he had played the part of
a village constable for me in a

410
00:36:23,559 --> 00:36:29,039
previous film that I'd made. So
talk about karma. It works both ways.

411
00:36:29,639 --> 00:36:34,199
You help somebody and they'll help you. So that was meant to be.

412
00:36:35,519 --> 00:36:43,119
Coastal Council absolutely unanimous in their support
across all parties and it was an

413
00:36:43,199 --> 00:36:49,960
absolute joy to work on a project
where nothing was put in my way and

414
00:36:50,000 --> 00:36:52,360
so we had that. It was
a small ceremony, not that many people

415
00:36:52,440 --> 00:36:59,960
there. We did get on the
local BBC news, but it meant so

416
00:37:00,199 --> 00:37:06,480
much And since then I have managed
to get another memorial at Chelmsford, not

417
00:37:06,559 --> 00:37:09,079
as close as I would like,
but close to the site where the hangings

418
00:37:09,119 --> 00:37:15,039
took place. Manning Tree have now
brought their own small plaque up in the

419
00:37:15,079 --> 00:37:19,480
in the town square, which I
had nothing to do with, although we

420
00:37:19,559 --> 00:37:22,119
did go to the unveiling. So
I'm just delighted. I think the time

421
00:37:22,199 --> 00:37:27,360
is coming when people are finally realizing, yes, we have got to acknowledge

422
00:37:27,360 --> 00:37:34,320
this. People have been spoken about
sort of history and things they don't like,

423
00:37:35,199 --> 00:37:37,880
but you can't ignore it. You
know, history is all of our

424
00:37:37,960 --> 00:37:42,559
history, not just the things we
like. And if we ignore these people,

425
00:37:42,599 --> 00:37:45,760
if we ignore the victims and only
talk about the villains, then we're

426
00:37:45,800 --> 00:37:49,880
doing the wrong thing. I agree, And so much has changed. There

427
00:37:49,920 --> 00:37:53,840
have been lots of There's been lots
of conversations with lots of different people in

428
00:37:53,880 --> 00:37:57,920
lots of different ways. So I
know there's been massive changes that are happenings

429
00:37:57,960 --> 00:38:02,639
happened in Scotland trials, that's happened
there. I know that there's a movement

430
00:38:02,800 --> 00:38:07,480
Sisters of Spoon. I think they're
called for Pendell for the Pendel, which

431
00:38:07,559 --> 00:38:13,199
is amazing stuff, as well of
the women of Pendell. So I know

432
00:38:13,280 --> 00:38:16,679
that there's lots of there's lots of
conversations, but I still don't believe people

433
00:38:16,880 --> 00:38:25,280
understand the magnitude of death and you
know, the absolute rain of terror that

434
00:38:25,880 --> 00:38:35,159
flooded the country and beyond. People
don't actually, yeah, they detach themselves

435
00:38:35,159 --> 00:38:37,760
from the fact that these are people
human. And it's really hard because in

436
00:38:37,800 --> 00:38:42,320
the conversations that I've had when I
do podcasts and I talk about the different

437
00:38:42,840 --> 00:38:45,880
trials that have taken place, the
different women that have been involved, where

438
00:38:45,880 --> 00:38:49,639
these women have come from, what
they've done, in the areas that they

439
00:38:49,719 --> 00:38:52,079
lived, all the way through.
I know I'm telling facts, I'm talking

440
00:38:52,079 --> 00:38:57,280
about what happened and why I have
to keep real minding people this is a

441
00:38:57,320 --> 00:39:00,039
person, by the way, this
actually happened to a person, and when

442
00:39:00,039 --> 00:39:07,039
you think about what those people went
through as well, is horrific. And

443
00:39:07,760 --> 00:39:14,639
again, having these conversations and having
these plaques put in place and having women's

444
00:39:14,920 --> 00:39:20,840
names being honored makes a difference.
It echoes through the time, but it

445
00:39:20,880 --> 00:39:24,360
also makes a positive movement for the
you know, for the present as well

446
00:39:24,400 --> 00:39:30,320
and the future. It makes a
big difference. These ripples and changes is

447
00:39:30,639 --> 00:39:37,480
turning a little. Although we still
do have the we still have people that

448
00:39:37,599 --> 00:39:44,559
are a bit not as educated in
what witchcraft or which will being a witch

449
00:39:44,719 --> 00:39:50,119
is and they have those negative connotations
that have kind of been dripped through social

450
00:39:50,159 --> 00:39:54,599
media media and so forth. So, yeah, it is really interesting these

451
00:39:54,679 --> 00:40:01,400
conversations you definitely need to be having. So in in terms of the work

452
00:40:01,440 --> 00:40:05,960
that you've done, could you tell
us a little bit more about that,

453
00:40:06,960 --> 00:40:10,519
the films that you've made, sorry, and any literature anything along those lines.

454
00:40:13,039 --> 00:40:19,440
The first film I made is based
on I'll have to mention his name,

455
00:40:20,920 --> 00:40:25,360
no, I'm looking at you know, all right, Well, it's

456
00:40:25,480 --> 00:40:31,639
based on he who shall not be
named in this podcast. But unlike other

457
00:40:34,199 --> 00:40:43,400
films and documentaries, this is told
from the victim's perspective. And this was

458
00:40:43,480 --> 00:40:46,719
made in conjunction with the local theater
company. We had a lottery grant to

459
00:40:46,800 --> 00:40:52,679
make it. It's not available at
the moment, I'm afraid because I'm looking

460
00:40:52,679 --> 00:40:57,239
to sell part of the copyright of
it to somebody else. So, but

461
00:40:57,360 --> 00:41:01,079
there are clips of it on my
YouTube channel, very short clips of it.

462
00:41:02,079 --> 00:41:06,039
I'm hoping to get right. Well, I've got my own half the

463
00:41:06,119 --> 00:41:09,239
right, so i'm hoping too.
But anyway, that that was very well

464
00:41:09,280 --> 00:41:16,280
received and had a local theater showing. But that's saw about twelve fifteen years

465
00:41:16,320 --> 00:41:22,440
ago. I made that now.
And then the second one is the Ursula

466
00:41:22,559 --> 00:41:29,119
Kemp documentary that is on YouTube.
It's not publicly available, but I'm very

467
00:41:29,159 --> 00:41:31,480
happy to send you the link.
So if you and your listeners would like

468
00:41:31,519 --> 00:41:37,840
to look at the whole documentary,
you're You're very welcome to. So that's

469
00:41:37,920 --> 00:41:45,320
that. And I'm presently writing a
book about Ursula, and it is a

470
00:41:45,360 --> 00:41:52,159
fiction book, but it touches on
what you're saying actually about the people and

471
00:41:52,199 --> 00:41:58,320
the community. And I'm filling in
the gaps with how I think they were

472
00:41:58,360 --> 00:42:04,800
living and the family life and how
they interacted with each other. So that's

473
00:42:04,840 --> 00:42:08,239
still in the writing. I'm not
a natural writer, so it's taking me

474
00:42:08,320 --> 00:42:13,239
a lot longer than I thought it
was going to take. So that's what

475
00:42:13,320 --> 00:42:20,440
I'm doing at the moment. I
am researching another Essex which who I believe

476
00:42:21,079 --> 00:42:28,320
was the first to be executed under
the Elizabethan Act. She is from Essex

477
00:42:28,400 --> 00:42:35,119
and so she comes from Great Waltham. Her name is Elizabeth Lowes and she

478
00:42:35,280 --> 00:42:42,159
was tried initially in a church court
and she was so so unlucky, unbelievably

479
00:42:42,239 --> 00:42:45,559
unlucky. If she'd have been tried
in the church court, even though it

480
00:42:45,679 --> 00:42:50,840
was a murder charge. She could
not have been sentenced to death. The

481
00:42:50,920 --> 00:42:55,320
church court could not sentence you to
death. However, while the trial was

482
00:42:55,360 --> 00:43:01,760
going on, Queen Elizabeth's law was
passed and she was transferred to the civil

483
00:43:01,840 --> 00:43:07,800
court for her trial to be heard
there. So if they'd done the trial

484
00:43:07,920 --> 00:43:13,000
six months earlier, she would have
lived. As it was, she was

485
00:43:13,039 --> 00:43:19,079
transferred to the civil court, was
convicted. She pleaded pregnancy, so she

486
00:43:19,239 --> 00:43:22,639
delayed her execution. Six months later
she was found that she wasn't pregnant,

487
00:43:22,760 --> 00:43:28,880
so she was hanged then, and
about two and a half months ago,

488
00:43:29,199 --> 00:43:35,360
I found the original trial documents in
the church records. As I say,

489
00:43:35,440 --> 00:43:40,480
the civil court cases did not keep
that the witness statements. I've found the

490
00:43:40,480 --> 00:43:49,320
witness statements from the church records.
So work is still ongoing, and it's

491
00:43:49,480 --> 00:43:53,039
those Eureka moments. I just love
it. I just love it. I

492
00:43:53,039 --> 00:43:57,079
was going to say, I'm sure
this has been an absolute journey through all

493
00:43:57,119 --> 00:44:01,039
the different all the different research that
you've done on the two different women and

494
00:44:01,280 --> 00:44:07,360
those beyond that. I'm sure it's
been an absolute journey of massive hires.

495
00:44:07,639 --> 00:44:10,840
It's not easy. There's a lot
of there's a lot of hard slug.

496
00:44:12,159 --> 00:44:15,199
But I also like talking you probably
gather I like talking about it, and

497
00:44:15,239 --> 00:44:19,760
quite often I go on too long. But but when I give, I

498
00:44:19,800 --> 00:44:24,360
give talks to to a lot of
witchy organizations obviously, but wis it is

499
00:44:24,440 --> 00:44:28,599
more the women that are interested in
the men. I wonder why that is.

500
00:44:29,280 --> 00:44:36,440
But I always talk from the victim's
perspective because they are the people.

501
00:44:36,679 --> 00:44:40,000
They are the ones who were involved. And as you said, you know,

502
00:44:40,079 --> 00:44:44,400
and we're both touched on it.
What what is a witch? What?

503
00:44:45,320 --> 00:44:50,800
What's a witch today? How do
you define it? And a lot

504
00:44:50,880 --> 00:44:53,719
of what we do today, things
that some people do that can't be explained.

505
00:44:53,760 --> 00:44:58,639
Does that make us witches because we
do things that cannot be explained.

506
00:44:59,199 --> 00:45:02,480
Are paranorm people, which is because
they're sensitive to things that other people aren't,

507
00:45:04,159 --> 00:45:07,960
you know, how do you define
that? So I just love all

508
00:45:07,000 --> 00:45:12,559
that. And also, I think
is a really fascinating question for me is

509
00:45:13,079 --> 00:45:16,559
why why are you? Why are
why are you afraid? Where is there

510
00:45:16,559 --> 00:45:20,800
to be afraid of? What is
concerning you? And a lot of the

511
00:45:20,840 --> 00:45:24,800
time it's bringing that conversation back onto
them. What are you afraid of?

512
00:45:25,239 --> 00:45:30,000
Is always an interesting question to ask
a lot of it is through not really

513
00:45:30,039 --> 00:45:37,239
having the not going away and doing
their own research or educating themselves outside of

514
00:45:37,280 --> 00:45:43,440
what is being given to them through
through the through the normal means. God.

515
00:45:43,639 --> 00:45:47,000
Yeah, a lot of people still
have the seventeenth century definition of a

516
00:45:47,039 --> 00:45:52,480
witch. That is what a witch
is. And you know what, Disney

517
00:45:52,519 --> 00:45:55,679
has got a hell of a lot
to answer for. That's the first you

518
00:45:55,719 --> 00:46:01,039
think about every child, Every child
in this country from an early age has

519
00:46:01,079 --> 00:46:07,760
it reinforced year after year after year. This is what a nasty witch looks

520
00:46:07,840 --> 00:46:13,719
like. Witches are nasty. It's
not small wonder really, that is such

521
00:46:13,719 --> 00:46:17,679
a difficult thing to overcome. It
is drummed into every child into this country,

522
00:46:17,800 --> 00:46:22,480
in this country, that that's what
witches are. And I agree.

523
00:46:22,519 --> 00:46:25,679
And I had a really interesting conversation
actually about Wizard of Oz and the good

524
00:46:25,679 --> 00:46:31,400
Witch Glinda when she stole her sister's
shoes after the house fell on her.

525
00:46:31,480 --> 00:46:37,199
It's like, who is wicked who? After all? Yeah, you just

526
00:46:37,280 --> 00:46:43,239
killed a witch and you pinched their
shoes. Absolutely. Oh, thank you

527
00:46:43,320 --> 00:46:45,480
so much for a chatting with me. I look forward so much to seeing

528
00:46:45,480 --> 00:46:52,119
your documentary. I would love to
have more conversations this topic. Of witches

529
00:46:52,159 --> 00:46:57,000
and witchcraft, especially the historical factors
of it, is so broad, they're

530
00:46:57,079 --> 00:47:00,159
so interesting, and I love to
have more of those conversations with you,

531
00:47:00,280 --> 00:47:05,000
if ever you're you're happy to Yeah, sure, yeah, yeah, I

532
00:47:05,079 --> 00:47:08,280
think. Thank you so much,
and thank you. Welcome everyone that's listened

533
00:47:08,280 --> 00:47:12,679
to us this evening, and we
look forward to seeing you what I look

534
00:47:12,679 --> 00:47:14,400
forward to seeing you next time.
Thank you,