WEBVTT

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I feel like it's been a while
since I've been on This feels a little

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strange. Actually, all right,
guys, I got through a lot of

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work and now I can present to
you part three of thirty years ago in

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Waco. And these are the last
two videos that were posted by the Hour

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of the Time on bit shoot.
It's just called Hour of the Time and

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it's all of Bill Cooper's archives.
I think he posts one a day and

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they're up into the eighteen hundreds now, so there's a lot there that you

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can learn from. And I'm going
to start with Bills what do you call?

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What would you say? It was
his request basically, and we're gonna

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hear that, and then I'm gonna
go right into his two broadcasts and it's

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actually gonna be video, so don't
worry, but I'm gonna probably have to

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interject a few times because I'm not
sure who made this video. And I'm

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sure Bill would have commentary on this
too, that some of the things were

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kind of a little bit whitewashed or
steered in a direction based on assumption that

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were, you know, the official
narrative given by the FBI and the ATF.

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So there's a little bit of that
going on. Part two I personally

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have not even seen yet. It
just came out. It was just uploaded

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today. So Part one I did
watch and while I was working yesterday,

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and it was very still, very
informative, and there's a lot. There's

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a lot there. Each one of
these parts that I put out, it's

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another piece of the puzzle. And
you just gotta pick them, you know,

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find them when you say, oh, and that one grabbed at you

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know, this one over here,
and then formulate the new overview of what

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you've been told versus what is reality? All right, so let me go

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ahead and get the show started here. Oh yeah, I got you that

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again. Okay, all right,
So this is the beginning. This is

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William Cooper asks us to share his
tapes after he is well you'll see,

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and it says William Cooper. This
is hot clip number one. William Cooper

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asks us to share his tapes after
he is killed. You remember, ladies

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and gentlemen, I have given up
my whole life. I don't have any

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money. I'm not getting rich from
this. In fact, the only thing

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that's happened to me in my family
is we have been destroyed. I'm doing

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this because I love the principles and
ideals which made this country the greatest nation

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on earth. Even though I may
call the vast majority of American people stupid,

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apathetic, and ignorant, it's because
they are. But I know that

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if somehow we can get them out
of that, they will become once again

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the greatest people that's ever lived upon
the face of this earth. And I

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do all of this out of love. I'm telling you this because I want

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you to know it, because I
don't have long to live. What I

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am doing now makes me the biggest
target in America. William Jefferson Clinton did

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not call me the most dangerous radio
host in America because he loves me.

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And one of these days you're going
to tune into this frequency and you will

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not hear a thing. When that
happens. I want you all to dig

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out all the old tapes of my
broadcasts, and I want you to get

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on whatever radio stations legal, illegal, micro FM, AM, short wave

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HAM, I don't care, and
play them over and over and over and

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over and over again, because it's
the only truth that anybody in this world

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is going to hear today. And
by now you all know that that's the

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truth. Okay, we're gonna get
right into it now here is Is this

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the part two? Yeah, I
get to part one The Hour of the

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Time number one eight zero seven Waco
and New Revelation Part one. In this

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video, you're gonna hear him introduce
it, and it's gonna show. It's

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gonna switch over to the actual video
you're listening to The Hour of the Time.

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I'm William Cooper. Good evening,
ladies and gentlemen. Regardless of what

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you may think initially, you have
never heard this broadcast before. On the

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Hour of the Time. A very
very close attention can here Part one tonight,

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Part two tomorrow and on the Thursday
night. I'll tell you where to

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get it and make sure that you
do get it. It's important. Normally

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I would skip the music, but
I think this is suitable to fulfill the

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long held promise of a new world
order for a brutality will go unrewarded.

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Just in case you don't remember,
let me jog your memory. In a

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church they called the Way co Calm
Pound. Back in April ninety three,

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seventeen little children, also helpless and
so small, died a senseless death of

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gas and flames. How many names
can you recall? Seventeen little children?

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Don't it make you wonder? Why? Seventeen little cheerdren? How could they

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deserve to die? Maybe we should
stop and ask ourselves if we become so

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blind, Well, seventeen little cheer
Drone find me, open up your mind?

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How did you sleep last night?
Bill Content? Tell me did you

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feel their pain? A seventeen little
cheer dr cried out and perished in the

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flame? Attorney General Janeteno, I
accept your offer to reasign. How can

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you stand for law and order now
when you will answer to your crime?

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Seventeen cheer also helpless and so smart? Seventeen blue Cheersdren, How many names

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can you recall? Maybe we should
stop and ask our says, if we

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become so blind, you'll seventeen little
cheers finally open up your mind. I've

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heard it said the branch Davidians only
got what they deserved. Yet no one

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seems to know what laws were broken, what was in the war they never

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served? Yesterday I sold my TV, said stop my subscription to the Times

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to be It's plain to see little
bed was an accomplice to these crimes.

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Seventeen and children don't it make you
wonder why seventeen little cheers drank? How

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could they deserve to die? Maybe
we should stop and ask ourselves if we

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become so blind little seventeen little cheer
Drane. Finally, open up your mind,

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Open up your mind. You're gonna
find throughout this video that there is

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over twenty I've actually died in not
seventeen. Hello, I'm doctor Frederick Whitehurst.

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I was employed by the FBI for
sixteen years as an agent, the

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last twelve of those years at the
FBI Crime Laboratory in Washington, d c.

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After reviewing the results of the six
year investigation into the tragedy at Waco,

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Texas, I am convinced that the
American people have never been told the

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full truth about that matter. On
February twenty eight, nineteen ninety three,

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agents of the Bureau of Alcohol,
Tobacco and Firearms rated the Branch Davidian compound

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near Waco, Texas. Four eighty
f agents and six Branch Davidians were killed.

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The Branch Davidians were immediately charged with
murder, thus beginning a fifty one

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day siege. On April nineteenth,
which is the first day of the Feast

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of Moloch nineteen ninety three. The
siege ended in a fire which destroyed the

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compound and took the lives of seventy
nine men, women, and children.

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The FBI later claimed that the Davidians
had committed mass suicide. Since nineteen ninety

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three, former FBI special forces and
CIA operatives have come forward with evidence to

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suggest this claim is not true.
This is the story of that evidence.

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Having served with the FBI's hostage negotiation
team during this crisis, April the nineteenth

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would mark the end of one of
my duties and the beginning of another.

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Unknown to me, my life was
about to change forever, as I would

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come to know what failure is.
Today, I saw the gates of hell.

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I saw the gates of hail.
Holding a child in your hands that

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lost its light in a fire where
the temperatures reached an excess of three thousand

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degrees is something that pierced in my
heart. April nineteenth, turned the TV

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on and there I saw the tanks
ramming into the front of the building in

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the fire, shooting out and it
was just it was horrifying. Mommy says,

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you know, they told us about
their fire, and says, they

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said, my Daddy and my brothers
said to Zakon things will be said straight,

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people will know the truth of things. Today two subcommittees undertake historic joint

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hearings and executive branch conduct during that
led up to the events at Waco,

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Texas in nineteen ninety three. In
human terms, these hearings are about a

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tragic loss of life. Four brave
young law enforcement officers lost their lives in

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February twenty eight, nineteen ninety three, a plan raid went badly and off

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course. These four agents, dedicated
and proud, deserved our full respect.

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They did not used to die,
but like many others in law enforcement community,

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they chose to serve and less enough
forget that those four happened to be

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security detail at one point for William
Jefferson Clinton, and it was with the

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four that died. But this is
a complex event. On April nineteenth,

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nineteen ninety three, after a fifty
one day siege, other decisions led to

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the use of so called cs gas
and a fire broke out. The fire

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rapidly consumed the entire Davidian compound,
killing all twenty two innocent children and more

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than sixty adults. The truth behind
that part of the tragedy is also important

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and is the obligation of those who
have responsibility for oversight to pursue the truth

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relentlessly. The Branch Davidians were a
Seventh Day Adventist or a sect of Seventh

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Day Adventist. They were an offshoot
developed first in California under the leadership of

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Victor Hattaff. He moved to why
in nineteen thirty four thirty five founded a

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community called Mount Carmel. His followers, in turn moved to the location we

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know in the early sixties. If
you once get to know these people,

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they're different from you and me.
They're more religious than you and me.

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They know the Bible better than you
and me. They lived apart from the

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rest of us. They lived in
a manner different than the rest of us.

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They had different marriage customs and different
property practices and the rest of us

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have. And they had a religion
that was absolutely incomprehensible to most Christians.

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Well. There were people from all
walks of life, various nations, and

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a lot of them came from England. They were colored table as well as

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white people. Majority of those people
in there were not criminals in the sense

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of the word that we think about
them. They were truly believing people.

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I believe ninety nine percent of those
people their sole purpose was the attainment of

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eternal life, which is after all
what I believe. All of us,

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you know, at least that are
Christians and believe in the Branch Davidians believe

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first of all, that is the
remnants of the true faith. They would

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be attacked by a hostile army representing
an apostate government Babylon, they called it,

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and that it was their religious duty
to defend the faith. In nineteen

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ninety two, the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms began an investigation into

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David Koresh for the possession of illegal
firearms. They formed a dynamic entry plan

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to secure the premises and seize illegal
weapons with approximately one hundred federal agents and

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three helicopters, which would ultimately cost
the lives of four ATF agents and six

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Branch Davidians. I have to stop
there to remind everybody that they knew damn

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well that those firearms were not on
the property at that time, because they

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were selling them as a business,
and they happened to be taken already off

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premise to a gun show and that
two hundred dollars tax stamp that they used

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as an excuse they never even had
an automatic weapon in the first place.

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On February twenty eight, nineteen ninety
three, approximately NINETYF ATF agents, while

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attempting to execute a warrant, were
met with heavy gunfire by a group of

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individuals occupying a compound approximately ten miles
northeast of Waco, Texas. The group

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is identified as the Branch Davidion.
A gunfight brokeount that would become the longest

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shootout in American law enforcement history.
According to the ATF, their men pull

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up to Mount Carmel pile out of
their cattle trailers, went running towards the

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door, guns pointed, shouting police
search warrant lay down. According to them,

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David was standing at the front door, unarmed, and he shut the

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door when they started running towards him. And the next thing the ATF knew,

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it says, it was receiving gunfire
from inside of Mount Carmel, in

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particular, from behind that front door. He knew long horsemen was coming,

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and he was so diabolical that he
laid an ambush. David Koresh expresses this.

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He says in this tape that he
went out on his porch. He

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said, stopped. There's women and
children in here, and a shot rang

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out and hit the door on to
the right. That door, he says,

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kicked. I went running down the
hall and found Perry Jones laying in

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the hall screaming that he had been
shot. Harry Jones was in his sixties.

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He was unarmed, as was David
Koresh when they went to the front

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door. Both was shot in the
area of the front door. David was

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shot in the wrist. Perry Jones
was shot in the stomach. And then

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he says, if he don't believe
me, look at the video tape.

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I know you have that tape.
He says, I saw you making it

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across the road. According to the
agency, there were three or four video

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cameras pointed at the front door could
tell you everything that happened at the front

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door of that building that day.
They claim they can't find a single one

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of them. Every one of those
videotapes banished. In additions of the missing

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videotape, the ATF's on sne activity
logs also disappeared. I'm sorry, sir,

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I just you mentioned that notes were
torn out of the surveillance log I

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was just wondering, how does that
happen? I don't know, sir,

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I had never heard that before.
My dad's name is Perry Jones. He

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was an unarmed man and you guys
just shot through the door, killed them,

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thankfu lot. But Blestaris was one
of the first ones to the door,

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Officer ballest Doors. He's an ATF
agent, and they had a plan

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that if the dogs came up to
attack him when they came to the front

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door, if they were to shoot
the dogs to build the dogs. And

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he testified at a pre trial hearing
that in fact they did fire and shoot

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the dogs. At that time,
it didn't take much of a spark to

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get a war going. I'm remember
gun shooting through the windows our room.

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I was shot up completely. I
did my best at getting the kids under

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the bed. All of a sudden, OU there's I don't know how many

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fifty seventy, I don't know a
hundred people outside, but at some point

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before I got Jaco and Brian under
the bed, bullets can flyin in my

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owndow were a law enforcement agency.
We don't fire through walls indiscriminately at people

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greatly feared that they would come in, they would open that door, and

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even though I didn't have a gun, that it wouldn't batter that they would

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shoot me in the kids. They
had already shot it into the window,

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and I had no clueots coming back. Just so you know, the video

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cut right there after those people entered. The ATF entered that window. What

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you'll see in Waco, the big
lie is that another ATF agent from outside

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the window starts firing into that room
that the ATF agents just entered. So

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who shot who and who was killed
by whom? The government tried to say

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that everybody they could put a gun
in everybody's hand at the beginning and during

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the raid, and that's not true. Most people were on armed. There

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were a few that had guns,
and I admit that, and they were

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probably those that reacted to seeing David
Perry and others gotten down who responded by

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firing back. But it was not
a general ambuscious they would like you to

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believe. I am in sympathy with
the families of those that lost, the

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families of the four agents that died. I know what they're going through.

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We lost a lot of friends and
a lot of our families. I lost

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a daughter inside mouth camel. After
about two hours, they had a real

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truce. It wasn't a pretty sight. I mean, they were grown men

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crying all around. There was a
group of guys that were down on their

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knees and they were praying, very
disturbing, you know type thing. I

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don't think the deaths on either side
were justified as well as those wounded.

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Judy Snyder was shot while nursing her
baby through the chest. Get my battery,

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God, get my battery behind a
buzz. Immediately following the at F

219
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raid, the Branch Davidians were charged
with murder and conspiracy to commit murder of

220
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federal agents. A year later,
the jury found all the Branch Davidians not

221
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guilty of both charges, but some
were convicted of lesser offenses. Since the

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initial February twenty eighth grade, a
review was before federal court to determine if

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the ATF used excessive for us while
serving the search warrant. Sir, I'm

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gonna people shot. Get the hell
off of here. I'll get off the

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property. That's what I'm doing,
sir, respect I am sir. You

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could have arrested me any day as
I jogged up and down this road.

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You could have arrested me going to
town or going to Walmart. All this

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stuff you meet, you guys may
want to avoid and deny, and I

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do not appreciate it, and never
will I ever appreciate somebody coming here and

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pushing people around with guns. He
I'll meet you at the doorstep any day,

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you know, and somebody will get
hurt if you want to keep playing

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that game. I'm talking to you, somebody's going to get hurt, because

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this ain't America anymore. When the
ATF has that kind of power to come

234
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into anybody's home and keep doors there
and things like that. The federal agents

235
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said they are headed back through the
house. So this thing is not over

236
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by a long shot. And the
only way that this is going to end

237
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is for all of the people inside
to die or to surrender. Bread.

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I was walking out, Uh,
there wasn't any room in the car um

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and when they saw me, they
just swarmed on me. Set out of

240
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here. Didn't know, daddy.
They're hitting me, trying to take my

241
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camera away from me, yelling at
me. And after all this went down,

242
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the Secret Service asked me if I
wanted to prosecute the agents. I

243
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said no, I said, I
understand them, and I was at first

244
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event valve. At this point we
were surrounded. At this point, we

245
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did not have a clue what the
government Babylon, in our opinion, was

246
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going to do in retaliation, but
we knew it wasn't going to be fun.

247
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On the evening of February twenty eighth, while Mount Carmel is under siege,

248
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three Davidians not present during the gunfight
trying to return home to their families.

249
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Two of the men are taken into
custody, but Michael Dean Schroeder is

250
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killed. They say that they stopped
him and they asked for who they were

251
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or whatever. I at don't see
how any of the ATF agents were close

252
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enough to ask him any questions.
Michael Schroeder's body is left in a ravine

253
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for five days, three hundred yards
from Mount Carmel. According to the ATF

254
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statements, Schroeder refused demands to surrender
and raised a pistol. Eleven agents fired

255
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on Schroeder. The autopsy report indicates
that he had seven bullet entries. Why

256
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it takes so many fatal bullet wounds
to knock somebody to the ground. According

257
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to testimony, as the ATF agents
were walking away with their prisoner, leaving

258
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Mike lay there like a piece of
meat in ATF and stated that they heard

259
00:31:02.359 --> 00:31:11.160
two more gunshots. Norman was picked
up. He told the others when he

260
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was in jail with him, he
said, after I surrendered, he said,

261
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and they were taking me away,
he said, I heard two more

262
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shots up the back. Schroeder's autopsy
report also indicated that there were two entry

263
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wounds behind his right ear, only
two inches apart. The bullets passed through

264
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this blue stocking cap. However,
the stocking cap was not examined during the

265
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autopsy, nor was any forensic testing
conducted before Schroeder's relatives had his body cremated.

266
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I said that Mike ambishon there was
seventeen of them as against him,

267
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and they would dressed up as trees. He wasn't armed either, BYGG loved

268
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to answer for After the initial rate
happened in February twenty eight, we got

269
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several phone calls in from the ATF
that said if they saw any movement inside

270
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the building, hands in front of
the windows, if people were standing in

271
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front of the windows, that they
felt that it was a threatening situation and

272
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that they would shoot us. On
March the first, the FBI begins negotiations

273
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with the Davidians. Heavy military equipment
is brought in, and a stalemate begins

274
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that will last fifty one days.
Several adults and children leave Mount Carmel and

275
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are transferred to atf custody. The
children are turned over to Texas Social Services.

276
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We have twenty one children that have
been released to our cares far.

277
00:33:00.839 --> 00:33:05.119
The youngest of those children is five
months old and the oldest one is at

278
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twelve year old. The children appear
to be smart and well educated, very

279
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sharp children. They seem to have
been very well cared for. In early

280
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March, Koresh had promised to come
out, but at the last minute he

281
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believed that God had told him to
stay in to wait. During the siege,

282
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David Koresh believed that the name prophecy
was being fulfilled, and which we

283
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believe spiritually speaking, that's talking about
the One World order. David Koresh believed

284
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that he was going to be the
one that initiates the downfall of this one

285
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or new world order, the fall
of Babylon the Great, by sacrificing himself

286
00:34:08.119 --> 00:34:17.440
in this denomination. The description of
Nanova in the Book of Nam David likened

287
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to the description of this country being
all stagnants in its ways, and the

288
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battle that takes place talks about these
chariots, shields being bloody, even what's

289
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not. He likened that battle to
what took place on February twenty eight two.

290
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Read nam or Habackic and you're in
it, you're experiencing it. It

291
00:34:45.599 --> 00:34:53.840
all fits together. It's all a
conglomerate of different prophecies by different men at

292
00:34:53.840 --> 00:35:04.800
different times, talking about a world
of Babylon, a great war. These

293
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tanks are for solely defensive purposes,
and they will not be armed. We

294
00:35:10.519 --> 00:35:19.159
have no plans to assault the compound
two thousand years ago. Hey, who

295
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believes in christ doctrine, the man
had to die. No one would believe

296
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what he had to say. So
is there a lesson to be learned by

297
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looking back at the history of the
prophets that can contrary to what people looked

298
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for. Where they killed Isaiah,
they killed Hushi, they killed Zachariah,

299
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and Jesus came to say in Matthew
twenty three to the Jews warns you to

300
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believe not all the Province of Spoken. So you know, today it's all

301
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together just totally disregarded. There's another
religious fanatic. It's another religious group.

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00:36:04.639 --> 00:36:09.599
Ever since the rise of television,
there's been a merger of news and entertainment.

303
00:36:12.159 --> 00:36:19.199
Monster stories and fairy stories are good, simple entertainment. Here you have

304
00:36:19.360 --> 00:36:23.599
media from all over the world is
flown in and expected by their home offices

305
00:36:23.679 --> 00:36:28.880
all around the world to produce a
story every day. I mean, the

306
00:36:29.159 --> 00:36:31.199
government could have just issued a press
release every day and the media would have

307
00:36:31.199 --> 00:36:37.360
read it word for word over the
air. Just I mean, that's how

308
00:36:38.039 --> 00:36:49.719
you know, desperate. It was
what the public was seeing and hearing on

309
00:36:49.840 --> 00:36:59.280
TV during the siege demonized the people
in that church. The ones that I

310
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met new the survivors, were people
that we're basically just trying to get to

311
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heaven. The world can hate us, the world can laugh at us in

312
00:37:09.599 --> 00:37:14.440
times of s all they want the
world's at two thousand years to learn this

313
00:37:14.480 --> 00:37:16.400
book. And they've been people all
up until now, we've been interested in

314
00:37:16.480 --> 00:37:21.320
it. Now people don't want the
Bible anymore. People don't seem to want

315
00:37:21.360 --> 00:37:22.880
to read the Bible or you know, they want to go to church and

316
00:37:22.960 --> 00:37:27.559
just be saved, you know,
And that's great if that's how faith works.

317
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But if God is a will,
and it is written in that book,

318
00:37:30.119 --> 00:37:34.559
the spirits, written in the book, through all the prophets, then

319
00:37:34.599 --> 00:37:37.119
there's a knowledge he wants us to
know. And the knowledge is here and

320
00:37:37.159 --> 00:37:44.320
it's being revealed. And that that's
all I can say. By March twenty

321
00:37:44.320 --> 00:37:49.440
fourth, twenty five children under the
age of fifteen und approximately fifty four adults

322
00:37:49.519 --> 00:37:55.039
remain inside the church compound as Steve
Schneider negotiates with the FBI's let's reflect on

323
00:37:55.079 --> 00:37:59.000
this for a minute. Why were
they there in the first instance, A

324
00:37:59.119 --> 00:38:02.880
good question. They were there to
serve and execute an arrest and search for

325
00:38:04.159 --> 00:38:07.159
They never said anything, not by
a bullhorn, not by a knock at

326
00:38:07.199 --> 00:38:10.239
the door, not by any reason, not by any reason, even before

327
00:38:10.239 --> 00:38:15.039
they got just about the time they
got to the porch is when David opened

328
00:38:15.039 --> 00:38:17.679
the door and poked his head out. What we want to do and what

329
00:38:17.719 --> 00:38:23.119
we will do when the time is
right, is we will process the crime

330
00:38:23.239 --> 00:38:28.199
scene there. Do you know that
we know that that wouldn't be so bad.

331
00:38:28.239 --> 00:38:30.679
The biggest issue that I've raised with
you, Dick, is not that

332
00:38:30.719 --> 00:38:36.039
you would be here even or that
the Texas Rangers. But I am adamant

333
00:38:36.119 --> 00:38:40.239
about this part that the APF is
planned the ones that came to this place,

334
00:38:40.280 --> 00:38:45.599
and when I've heard on the press
conference the outright lise and to think

335
00:38:45.639 --> 00:38:49.519
that that agency would be involved in
any aspect of this from here on out

336
00:38:49.719 --> 00:38:52.679
blows my mind that that would even
be allowed in America. Well, Steve,

337
00:38:52.760 --> 00:38:55.440
let's face it, there are some
things that we will We will deal

338
00:38:55.480 --> 00:38:59.039
with when the time is right.
No, no, no, you start

339
00:38:59.119 --> 00:39:01.239
dealing with it now so we can
come out. I mean, that's one

340
00:39:01.239 --> 00:39:05.719
of the biggest reasons I have not
been able to hurdle talking to the people

341
00:39:05.760 --> 00:39:07.639
getting them to come out to k
Steve, why don't you and your fan

342
00:39:07.760 --> 00:39:10.920
to come out and then you handle
these issues? Okay, why don't we

343
00:39:10.960 --> 00:39:14.679
all? Am I going to handle
them? And I'll be when I'll be

344
00:39:14.760 --> 00:39:19.559
shackled her hands and feet and throwing
the key will be thrown away. Who's

345
00:39:19.599 --> 00:39:34.559
gonna hee? They're after blood?
Come on? Did they put me in

346
00:39:34.599 --> 00:39:38.639
the jail? Didn't I go here
after I'd been there a shot period of

347
00:39:38.679 --> 00:39:45.199
time? They brought me in and
Judge came and told me what I was

348
00:39:45.239 --> 00:39:51.679
being charged for and he says,
you're being charged for Bura conspiracy to murder.

349
00:39:51.960 --> 00:40:09.639
They said it'll be a hundred years, seventy five or fifty. They

350
00:40:09.679 --> 00:40:15.440
were assuring us that we would be
cared for in a professional manner. Then

351
00:40:16.400 --> 00:40:22.880
you turn around and you've got people
that are flipping you the finger over top

352
00:40:22.880 --> 00:40:25.960
of the tanks. They're dropping their
drawers and bearing their butts, and these

353
00:40:25.960 --> 00:40:32.920
are the type of people that you're
supposed to go out to. I said,

354
00:40:32.960 --> 00:40:37.119
I had heard that you guys had
rode on some of the windows there

355
00:40:37.119 --> 00:40:42.920
at Mount Carmel that we see you, David, etc. And I asked

356
00:40:42.920 --> 00:40:45.320
the agent was this true? And
he said, yeah, it's true.

357
00:40:46.639 --> 00:40:51.559
And I said, aren't you guys
concerned about when this is over that the

358
00:40:51.599 --> 00:40:57.519
news meeting might see this? And
thinking a little antagonistic on your part.

359
00:40:58.880 --> 00:41:04.519
He just looked at me and boy, everything flip flop. From day to

360
00:41:04.599 --> 00:41:09.400
day. You went through a feeling
of being real hopeful to you sunk at

361
00:41:09.400 --> 00:41:14.880
the bottom again because from day to
day you never really knew what was going

362
00:41:14.920 --> 00:41:21.679
to happen, what the negotiations were
going to be. Steve, Yeah,

363
00:41:21.920 --> 00:41:28.679
there's been a change. The tactical
people have changed the situation, and for

364
00:41:28.960 --> 00:41:34.519
security reasons and for safety reasons,
no one is now authorized to come out

365
00:41:34.519 --> 00:41:38.679
of there for any reason. And
what they're telling me is that if anybody

366
00:41:38.840 --> 00:41:44.679
does, they are going to be
dealt with in such a fashion that the

367
00:41:44.719 --> 00:41:52.800
people have to retreat back to the
compound. What I'm not I'm missing I

368
00:41:52.840 --> 00:41:54.880
guess what you're saying. Are you
saying? Or I would make it as

369
00:41:54.880 --> 00:42:00.639
plain as possible. The patience of
the bosses is normally long, was earlier

370
00:42:01.000 --> 00:42:04.559
all the day, and I'm a
bart already. Listen to me, now,

371
00:42:04.719 --> 00:42:07.679
Henry, I don't really give up
your bosses when you tell me one

372
00:42:07.719 --> 00:42:12.239
thing or you tell us that is
okay. And as Bradley comes up and

373
00:42:12.320 --> 00:42:16.400
says something contrary to what you are, you tell your bosses to get their

374
00:42:16.440 --> 00:42:25.800
foots together. You hear me.
Would you respond to the allegations that the

375
00:42:25.880 --> 00:42:30.840
reason why we had a WACO is
because the FBI was in disarray, It

376
00:42:31.000 --> 00:42:35.639
is obvious that from the time of
the change in the administration, it was

377
00:42:35.719 --> 00:42:37.920
very clear that there was a great
discussion about the replacement of the director of

378
00:42:37.960 --> 00:42:44.920
the FBI. In a March eleventh
letter to President Clinton, acting Attorney General

379
00:42:44.920 --> 00:42:50.400
Stuart Gerson recommends that the President rely
on other FBI leadership to resolve Waco and

380
00:42:50.559 --> 00:42:55.679
dismiss Director Sessions. Chief among those
mentioned in Gerson's letter is Assistant Director Floyd

381
00:42:55.679 --> 00:43:02.039
Clark. Don't confuse him with Jeff
Session. It's William Sessions. Sessions can't

382
00:43:02.039 --> 00:43:07.679
talk today. This situation created a
competitive environment for the directorship of the FBI

383
00:43:07.079 --> 00:43:12.159
in the midst of a major crisis. I know this was a very political

384
00:43:12.199 --> 00:43:16.719
thing, and I agree that with
your observation that it could be that the

385
00:43:16.800 --> 00:43:23.440
FBI was impaired its ability. Certainly
I was impaired in my ability. FBI

386
00:43:23.440 --> 00:43:29.280
Director William Sessions attempted to fly to
Waco during the siege to conduct face to

387
00:43:29.320 --> 00:43:34.480
face negotiations with David Koresh, but
he was impeded by government officials in Washington,

388
00:43:34.599 --> 00:43:39.320
d C. The reason Bill Sessions
never came to Waco during the siege

389
00:43:39.559 --> 00:43:47.119
was that the Justice Department refused to
let him board his flight. Everybody knows

390
00:43:47.159 --> 00:43:52.719
that I had contact Director from people
associated with mister Koresh about the possibility of

391
00:43:52.760 --> 00:43:58.079
my going down and negotiating with them
coming in down there, and now some

392
00:43:58.119 --> 00:44:04.480
people played that asiculous and ridiculed it
or as grandstanding, but it's indicative of

393
00:44:04.519 --> 00:44:09.199
what I felt and continued to feel. You can't discard any possibility that you

394
00:44:09.280 --> 00:44:16.599
can resolve that kind of circumstance when
you can take and apply that negotiating capability.

395
00:44:17.039 --> 00:44:24.119
The Justice Department wouldn't allow an FBI
director to go and negotiate directly with

396
00:44:24.920 --> 00:44:31.360
a so called terrorists who they felt
had killed a number of federal license more

397
00:44:31.400 --> 00:44:37.280
or less in cold luck, and
try to defuse a serious situation ended up

398
00:44:37.320 --> 00:44:42.800
in a calamity and a great embarrassment
for the FBI and even greater embarrassment for

399
00:44:42.880 --> 00:44:50.599
law enforcement in general. And it
was all politics. They were not about

400
00:44:50.679 --> 00:44:58.239
to see this standoff in Waco negotiated
again because it was an opportunity for Floyd

401
00:44:58.320 --> 00:45:07.360
Clark and comp to show that they
were were the FBI capable of handling a

402
00:45:07.559 --> 00:45:15.400
standoff and coming out winning in this
kind of an incident with military kind of

403
00:45:15.519 --> 00:45:24.039
tactics. It was a paramilitary organization. Maybe you might ask them, if

404
00:45:24.039 --> 00:45:30.000
you're gonna have some ice cream too? Can I have some cream off?

405
00:45:30.880 --> 00:45:36.960
A little brobberry there? You know
you're right now you're considered a big terrorist,

406
00:45:37.079 --> 00:45:39.880
you know, and you can demand
some important things like an ice cream

407
00:45:39.960 --> 00:45:45.920
or something. You know, maybe
they might adhere until you. By late

408
00:45:45.000 --> 00:45:49.760
March, the FBI has cut off
electricity to the compound and is preparing a

409
00:45:49.800 --> 00:45:53.800
series of military tactics to force a
resolution. A direct quote from the transcript

410
00:45:53.880 --> 00:45:58.559
where it is said by a negotiator
to mister Krash, we had a very

411
00:45:58.920 --> 00:46:02.000
good dialogue last night. The electricity
will not go off tonight because we have

412
00:46:02.039 --> 00:46:06.679
had a good dialogue this evening,
as a negotiated to mister Koresh. Half

413
00:46:06.719 --> 00:46:08.000
an hour later, no, I'm
sorry, it's a negotiator to mister Steve

414
00:46:08.000 --> 00:46:12.119
Schneider. Half an hour later,
the lights are turned off and laughed off

415
00:46:12.159 --> 00:46:16.559
permanently. The electricity shut off.
Why. I can't answer to why,

416
00:46:16.639 --> 00:46:21.519
but I can tell you that the
negotiation team was disappointed in that decision.

417
00:46:31.119 --> 00:46:37.840
Since mid March, negotiations have begun
to fail and the FBI resorts to psychological

418
00:46:37.880 --> 00:46:46.760
warfare. I have appreciated the music
get out, I sleep at night music.

419
00:46:46.960 --> 00:46:53.719
I thought you'd being a teenager,
you might marsh and silence. Oh,

420
00:46:53.800 --> 00:47:02.360
I see went through varying degrees of
hell with noise, music, bright

421
00:47:02.440 --> 00:47:08.880
lights. The children were suffering along
with the adults, were without water,

422
00:47:08.960 --> 00:47:14.280
having had our water tanks shot up. We were living on rainwater. Whenever

423
00:47:14.320 --> 00:47:16.920
it would rain, people would put
buckets out the window and collect rainwater,

424
00:47:16.960 --> 00:47:22.480
and it was rationed. I doubt
whether anybody got more than eight ounces a

425
00:47:22.639 --> 00:47:30.800
day. If that, how long
do you fit with that many resources tied

426
00:47:30.880 --> 00:47:37.360
up and disrupting the whole community,
with people that are violate, in violation

427
00:47:37.400 --> 00:47:51.000
the law, that are in fact
in a state of anarchy. I can

428
00:47:51.039 --> 00:47:55.119
remember looking out the south side of
the building. My attention had been drawn

429
00:47:55.199 --> 00:48:00.400
to the fact that the tanks were
coming in and they were pushing all the

430
00:48:00.480 --> 00:48:04.760
things on the south side of the
church, on the chapel, south side

431
00:48:04.800 --> 00:48:07.639
of the chapel into a big heave. It looked like they were building a

432
00:48:07.639 --> 00:48:14.760
bon five. We know from the
evidence that the tactical element of the FBI

433
00:48:15.280 --> 00:48:19.920
was eager to put a quick end
to the standoff. The irony of the

434
00:48:19.960 --> 00:48:30.760
situation is that the tactical people are
actually precipitating the crisis of the nineteenth They

435
00:48:30.880 --> 00:48:34.000
told me the Commander's one more,
and I'm telling them, they're wrecking everything

436
00:48:34.039 --> 00:48:37.679
that we were doing, and it's
getting ten times worse. And the more

437
00:48:37.719 --> 00:48:39.440
they threaten these people, the more
they'll leap down right on the floor and

438
00:48:39.519 --> 00:48:44.519
they can run the tanks over them. I mean, that becomes the attitude

439
00:48:45.320 --> 00:48:52.840
Steve Snyder and a telephone call during
the standoff to his sisters, Sue refers

440
00:48:52.920 --> 00:48:59.920
to the prophecies in the Book of
Name, chapter two. We're talking about

441
00:49:00.000 --> 00:49:02.760
the Bible and all the profitment.
I know, look at when you get

442
00:49:02.760 --> 00:49:06.159
off the point, you look at
the Book of Nam. Yeah, that

443
00:49:06.280 --> 00:49:09.639
that curios put flaming torches are tanks. That's what Nam saw in the final

444
00:49:09.760 --> 00:49:14.679
Days. They're surrounded us. It's
the first time and they hit the United

445
00:49:14.719 --> 00:49:19.159
States that the government has used tanks
against its own people. Who it's stupid.

446
00:49:19.280 --> 00:49:23.880
I know it well. I had
been talking to the negotiators myself,

447
00:49:23.960 --> 00:49:29.599
and I would tell them things that
I thought would help. And it seemed

448
00:49:29.639 --> 00:49:35.280
like like, for instance, when
they started playing the music that they would

449
00:49:35.320 --> 00:49:37.840
laugh, They acted like they wanted
to do everything to intagonize, and they

450
00:49:37.840 --> 00:49:43.599
really didn't want to help. And
it just seemed like every prediction that David

451
00:49:44.239 --> 00:49:47.119
was predicting, they knew about,
and they were making these predictions come true.

452
00:49:47.119 --> 00:49:50.760
And I kept saying to my family, why are they doing this?

453
00:49:50.880 --> 00:49:57.719
If they want them to come out? I am bewildered in the wake of

454
00:49:57.840 --> 00:50:02.960
Jonestown, wh more time wasn't spent, and somebody not out in the plains

455
00:50:04.000 --> 00:50:08.159
of Waco, but maybe in a
nice comfortable office in Washington, didn't immerse

456
00:50:08.280 --> 00:50:15.639
themselves in the religious tenants of this
branch Davidian group. If I knew about

457
00:50:15.159 --> 00:50:19.239
his plans to burn the place,
would we had had a whole nother approach

458
00:50:19.280 --> 00:50:22.800
with him. We know about your
plan to burn the place and destroy your

459
00:50:22.800 --> 00:50:25.159
people, we would have been broadcasting
it. We would not even come close

460
00:50:25.159 --> 00:50:31.440
to approaching that place. Numerous microphones
were planted inside of Mount Carmel that recorded

461
00:50:31.480 --> 00:50:42.119
several conversations of the Davidians reacting to
the tanks and the FBI hostage rescue team

462
00:50:44.280 --> 00:51:06.840
who was deceived the fire. The
FBI cannot get up here and say they

463
00:51:06.880 --> 00:51:09.800
did not know that David Koresh would
respond when they made that assault. They

464
00:51:09.880 --> 00:51:13.840
knew that David Koresh was going to
respond by trying to burn the place down.

465
00:51:14.119 --> 00:51:17.559
And they knew that because they had
overheard undercover tapes and because I'd had

466
00:51:17.559 --> 00:51:25.039
prior negotiation tapes with him. The
tank started the fire, not the Davidiansyah,

467
00:51:25.239 --> 00:51:28.239
no things, You're only going to
get worse out there. This whole

468
00:51:28.239 --> 00:51:30.559
situation is not going to go away, you know, And I know the

469
00:51:30.599 --> 00:51:35.320
only way we're going to resolved in
this situation is you folks come on out.

470
00:51:36.039 --> 00:51:37.960
That's that's the end of it right
there. And now you were going

471
00:51:38.000 --> 00:51:43.400
to have to work to a point
where this is going to happen. And

472
00:51:43.440 --> 00:51:47.320
now the trick is how and a
situation like this, Hey, there's that's

473
00:51:47.320 --> 00:51:51.280
the answer. I'll tell you what. It definitely oppened out in the usual

474
00:51:51.360 --> 00:51:57.320
situation for sure. Oh sometime when
you have a chan three days, they

475
00:51:57.360 --> 00:52:00.880
have thirty three of what people living
in fire and walk through it and coming

476
00:52:00.880 --> 00:52:05.199
out and surviving, seriously, says, who can dwell? And everlasting burnings?

477
00:52:05.199 --> 00:52:12.880
That's the question. There is a
tradition in the Branch Davidian history that

478
00:52:13.280 --> 00:52:19.360
God would in the end time protect
his people through a wall of fire.

479
00:52:20.719 --> 00:52:25.760
They understand the Bible prophecies to be
warnings of what could happen, but not

480
00:52:25.840 --> 00:52:31.679
necessarily what must happen. Koresh wrote
a letter to his attorney Dick to Garrett

481
00:52:32.159 --> 00:52:37.000
in which he said he had good
news. God had spoken to him.

482
00:52:37.199 --> 00:52:40.960
The waiting period was coming to an
end. He and all the people could

483
00:52:42.000 --> 00:52:45.920
exit Mount Carmel and go through the
system. But first he was commanded to

484
00:52:45.960 --> 00:52:50.639
write down the meaning of his message, the meaning of the seven Seals.

485
00:52:51.239 --> 00:52:54.239
After he wrote that manuscript, he
and all the people were commanded to leave.

486
00:52:54.480 --> 00:52:58.599
They actually had no choice to remain. God had told him to leave.

487
00:53:00.079 --> 00:53:05.119
This message is communicated to the FBI. In an attempt to end the

488
00:53:05.159 --> 00:53:09.360
siege. Koresh writes his first seal
and is preparing the second when the FBI

489
00:53:09.519 --> 00:53:19.400
begins implementing its final tactical resolution.
They'd been knocking down trees and dragging things

490
00:53:19.440 --> 00:53:23.719
off from outside Mount Carmel a little
by little for several weeks. On the

491
00:53:23.800 --> 00:53:29.360
eighteenth, they got rid of everything
that was left. It's just like the

492
00:53:29.400 --> 00:53:34.039
papsie there in the dark ages.
But they thought people were heretics. They

493
00:53:34.119 --> 00:53:37.360
went in and doe with them.
That was the way they believed. And

494
00:53:37.480 --> 00:53:43.079
you know, we have to all
follow our conscious us Why America supposed to

495
00:53:43.079 --> 00:53:45.320
be a great nation where we can
follow our conscious according to our beliefs.

496
00:53:50.760 --> 00:54:15.400
There was an aura there that we're
going to end this thing. The individual

497
00:54:15.639 --> 00:54:22.880
MPI brand individuum calm out. Now
we are in the prom point with haircap

498
00:54:22.079 --> 00:54:34.199
in the building. On on on, We were not being entering building.

499
00:54:35.480 --> 00:54:40.679
Gas wasn't started using a marked five
delivery system secured to a boom. We

500
00:54:40.719 --> 00:54:47.360
would not use thosages that would would
harm those children, and they had hairca

501
00:54:51.719 --> 00:54:58.800
The FBI's position on this from day
one was to be very deliberate, very

502
00:54:58.840 --> 00:55:06.320
careful, and not to do anything
that would be provocative that would cause some

503
00:55:06.440 --> 00:55:20.119
reaction. There were no injuries to
FBI agents, and FBI agents did not

504
00:55:20.199 --> 00:55:25.760
return any fire throughout the entire day, in spite of being fired upon numerous

505
00:55:25.800 --> 00:55:53.440
times by occupants of the compounds.
The plan was for this to continue for

506
00:55:53.440 --> 00:55:58.960
forty eight hours, but there was
a catch to the plan. If the

507
00:55:59.000 --> 00:56:04.239
tanks took fire from the Davidians,
they were then allowed to escalate the plan.

508
00:56:06.440 --> 00:56:09.559
According to the official briefing given to
Attorney General Janet Reno by the FBI

509
00:56:09.719 --> 00:56:15.079
on April to twelve, the assault
plan called for demolition of the building and

510
00:56:15.119 --> 00:56:20.039
permission to shoot streams of automatic weapons
fire into the building to support an armored

511
00:56:20.079 --> 00:56:23.880
vehicle's approach, and we told them
what was going to happen. This tank's

512
00:56:23.880 --> 00:56:28.360
going to come up, it's going
to insert gas. We are not entering

513
00:56:28.400 --> 00:56:35.159
the compound. We're not fulfilling this
prophecy. Don't presume that was The Attorney

514
00:56:35.199 --> 00:56:37.840
General warned that while we've been very
cautious about selecting what your experts say or

515
00:56:37.880 --> 00:56:42.880
experts say was non lethal gas,
we might still crush seconds and the building.

516
00:56:43.000 --> 00:56:46.960
Did she understand that people might be
killed? I find an inconsistency between

517
00:56:46.960 --> 00:56:52.079
the efforts of the gas insertion plan
to save life and the actions of this

518
00:56:52.559 --> 00:57:00.400
tank. At Mount Carmel, we
had people that were confined to an area.

519
00:57:01.360 --> 00:57:05.639
Where were they going to go?
Who are they going to hurt?

520
00:57:07.679 --> 00:57:12.880
They ran out of gas canisters I
think about ten o'clock in the morning.

521
00:57:13.800 --> 00:57:16.199
Everything they had planned for forty eight
hours was gone by the NA they were

522
00:57:16.199 --> 00:57:24.960
flying in more from Houston. The
cs gas used at Mount Carmel was more

523
00:57:24.960 --> 00:57:30.000
potent than normal tear gas. CS
gas would induce nausea, vomiting, and

524
00:57:30.159 --> 00:57:37.760
disorientation as the FBI tanks demolished the
building. CS gas has a cyanide component

525
00:57:37.800 --> 00:57:43.280
to it. The gas was dispersed
from high pressure bottles mounted on the boom

526
00:57:43.280 --> 00:57:50.119
of the combat engineering vehicles. Any
indication about danger or harm to those children,

527
00:57:50.559 --> 00:57:54.880
the rule was back off. One
of the first locations gassed by the

528
00:57:54.920 --> 00:58:00.559
FBI is the buried school bus the
entryway to an underground store them shoulder.

529
00:58:00.559 --> 00:58:05.840
Following the gassing, the mothers of
the children take them to an enclosed concrete

530
00:58:05.880 --> 00:58:09.599
vault, which the FBI calls the
bunker. The FBI gas is the Bunker

531
00:58:09.639 --> 00:58:15.519
for two hours, approximately half of
a panel that we had testified that some

532
00:58:15.599 --> 00:58:21.519
of the infants and children, since
they didn't have gas masks, could in

533
00:58:21.599 --> 00:58:25.719
fact have died from inhalation or effects
of CS gas at the very least.

534
00:58:25.719 --> 00:58:30.920
A Department of Justice decision in fact
resulted in the babies and children being tortured

535
00:58:30.960 --> 00:58:37.880
for at least three to four hours. I'd been told that earlier in the

536
00:58:37.920 --> 00:58:43.320
morning the fielders wouldn't last long.
When it did block up, I'd take

537
00:58:43.400 --> 00:58:45.800
them my mask off, only to
find my face bunting and stinging like you

538
00:58:45.840 --> 00:58:50.280
had acid all over. Some of
them were trying to wipe it off with

539
00:58:50.360 --> 00:58:53.800
minimal amounts of their drinking water on
them, perhaps a rag or whatever,

540
00:58:54.199 --> 00:58:58.639
only to find that they'd made it
worse, so, as I say,

541
00:58:58.719 --> 00:59:05.440
what the children would going through,
only God knows. I saw grown men,

542
00:59:05.599 --> 00:59:12.000
adults crying because of the sensation of
the gas. As I say,

543
00:59:12.079 --> 00:59:15.239
we were fortunate in as much as
we were not in an enclosed environment like

544
00:59:15.320 --> 00:59:24.519
the children were being sprayed point blank
and not having any ventilation. We are

545
00:59:24.559 --> 00:59:30.960
now at what we believe is the
next logical juncture of putting sufficient pressure on

546
00:59:31.000 --> 00:59:36.960
them to cause them to come out. We saw a hole at a tank

547
00:59:37.000 --> 00:59:39.719
had made in the south wall of
the chapel, and we were kind of

548
00:59:39.760 --> 00:59:45.360
standing right just inside of that.
There was a heap of rubble sheet rock,

549
00:59:45.440 --> 00:59:49.360
and two before is that the tank
had pushed in. We were standing

550
00:59:49.360 --> 00:59:52.400
just a little back from the hole, trying to decide whether if we went

551
00:59:52.400 --> 00:59:57.320
out we would be shot. And
as we were standing there, others were

552
00:59:57.400 --> 01:00:00.840
kind of coming in behind us.
Next thing I knew, I kind of

553
01:00:00.880 --> 01:00:05.239
turned was looking out the hole again, and all this smoke came down the

554
01:00:05.280 --> 01:00:07.400
outside of the building and got sucked
in the hole where we went in the

555
01:00:07.440 --> 01:00:12.840
whole place to pitch black. That
was the first indication that I recall of

556
01:00:13.519 --> 01:00:44.440
any evidence of fire, any statement
by you that they committed suicide since we

557
01:00:44.480 --> 01:00:47.239
never got to talk to him.
Is all a conclusion that you've drawn,

558
01:00:49.039 --> 01:00:51.719
And, as you just said,
speculation on your part. I'm trying to

559
01:00:52.840 --> 01:00:57.639
resolve in my mind why someone would
sit in there for six hours with gas

560
01:00:58.440 --> 01:01:01.159
and not come out with full opportunity
to come out. Who was keeping them

561
01:01:01.159 --> 01:01:05.199
from doing it, or are they
compelling themselves or what. I don't know.

562
01:01:05.280 --> 01:01:08.840
I'm just it has to be speculation. In the very first video that

563
01:01:08.880 --> 01:01:14.159
I did day fifty one, they
talk about twenty five people trying to flee

564
01:01:14.199 --> 01:01:16.280
and they were all gunned down.
Hey, I think that's the point is

565
01:01:16.320 --> 01:01:23.159
we don't know. It was so
black he couldn't even save the flames.

566
01:01:23.480 --> 01:01:27.840
You could just feel the heat,
oppressive heat that pushed you down on the

567
01:01:27.840 --> 01:01:31.679
ground. And I can remember looking
at my hands and the skin was just

568
01:01:31.840 --> 01:01:37.880
rolling off. There was no blister. They were just rolling it off in

569
01:01:37.440 --> 01:01:43.239
whole layers, you might say.
And I look back over my shoulder and

570
01:01:43.280 --> 01:01:45.800
I was just horrified the fact that
I've just come through a massive flames.

571
01:01:52.800 --> 01:02:00.239
I heard some people screaming, kind
of high pitched screams. They didn't sound

572
01:02:00.320 --> 01:02:02.639
anyone, was like a scream of
fear, A sound like more of a

573
01:02:02.639 --> 01:02:23.679
scream that someone was getting burned.
We were hoping that the women in that

574
01:02:23.719 --> 01:02:30.880
compound would grab their children and flee
out. That did not occur. Unfortunately,

575
01:02:30.880 --> 01:02:32.519
they've bunker down the children, the
best we can tell, and they

576
01:02:32.559 --> 01:02:43.159
allowed those children to go get up
in flames with them. David Koresh,

577
01:02:43.639 --> 01:02:49.159
Steve Schnyder, fifty two other adults, twenty five children, and two trauma

578
01:02:49.199 --> 01:03:04.519
born infants perish in the April nineteenth
fire. The Davidian survivors were taken into

579
01:03:04.559 --> 01:03:14.760
custody by FBI agents on the scene. No Clive Doyle and other injured French

580
01:03:14.840 --> 01:03:31.599
Davidians were given emergency treatment at the
FBI command post. The uninjured Davidians were

581
01:03:31.639 --> 01:03:46.920
transferred to the custody of the ATF
and book into the county jail. The

582
01:03:47.000 --> 01:03:52.239
reason we didn't wait was the thing
I'm trying to say several times, I'm

583
01:03:52.280 --> 01:03:55.599
not saying it, but well enough
is that from his actions on the nineteenth

584
01:03:55.639 --> 01:04:00.960
when he made when he had some
of those people killed when he my gun

585
01:04:00.039 --> 01:04:03.599
fire. Others died in the fire
for not being able to leave, which

586
01:04:03.639 --> 01:04:08.320
I think they were concerned, but
most of another's salvation that that was his

587
01:04:08.400 --> 01:04:17.559
hold over them, is that he
would dictate. When that occurred, many

588
01:04:17.559 --> 01:04:21.239
people would all do your actions,
how do you respond to their families?

589
01:04:21.559 --> 01:04:26.960
It's not because of our actions.
Those children are dead because David Korsh had

590
01:04:26.960 --> 01:04:30.760
been killed. There's no question about
that. He had those fires started.

591
01:04:30.039 --> 01:04:34.559
He had fifty one days to release
those children. He chose those children to

592
01:04:34.639 --> 01:04:45.440
die. I don't know who started
the fire or fires. I don't know

593
01:04:46.800 --> 01:04:56.199
who fired bullets into these people's bodies. I don't know from what origin the

594
01:04:56.280 --> 01:05:02.519
bullets came from. So if we
can completely agree that we do not have

595
01:05:03.000 --> 01:05:08.880
a definitive answer of the sourcing that
in fact, what we have is an

596
01:05:08.880 --> 01:05:17.360
open homicide. Is there anything that
we've missed that we should go after in

597
01:05:17.400 --> 01:05:21.639
the remaining two days, Yes,
sir, I think we've missed some of

598
01:05:21.679 --> 01:05:29.119
the questions as to as I've mentioned
earlier, why items of evidence have disappeared,

599
01:05:29.840 --> 01:05:35.360
why the crime scene was destroyed before
it could be evaluated. These areas,

600
01:05:35.559 --> 01:05:49.880
especially the evidence disappearing. Okay,
on to the next one. All

601
01:05:49.920 --> 01:05:56.719
right, here we go. You
are listening to the hour of the time.

602
01:05:56.800 --> 01:06:00.199
I'm William Cooper. Folks, if
you want to check out the number

603
01:06:00.199 --> 01:06:04.679
one source of news and the whole
world the best news that there is anywhere.

604
01:06:05.239 --> 01:06:12.199
William Cooper dot net, William Cooper
dot net one more time, William

605
01:06:12.239 --> 01:06:16.000
Cooper dot net. For those of
you living in the Round Valley, we

606
01:06:16.039 --> 01:06:19.920
are getting a new antenna for one
on one point one FM, which should

607
01:06:19.960 --> 01:06:26.280
triple our signal strength just the antenna
alone. We're not going to add any

608
01:06:26.320 --> 01:06:30.039
more power. We're at the maximum
legal power that we can do. But

609
01:06:30.119 --> 01:06:34.320
we can add an antenna that will
multiply the signal strength by about three times.

610
01:06:35.320 --> 01:06:42.760
We also have now our amplifier for
Channel fifteen for the Round Valley TV,

611
01:06:43.840 --> 01:06:47.519
and that's cost us a bunch of
money, and it's being built from

612
01:06:47.559 --> 01:06:51.159
scratch, specially for us. It
was hard to find. It took us

613
01:06:51.159 --> 01:06:57.719
a long time, and I've got
to a publicly thanked Scott Becker for that.

614
01:06:59.039 --> 01:07:08.880
Now, stay tuned for part two. Waco a new revelation. I

615
01:07:08.880 --> 01:07:15.760
mean, you have an essence a
crime scene that was so seriously flawed through

616
01:07:15.800 --> 01:07:21.719
ignorance or through an air of an
elite mentality, or in fact, there

617
01:07:21.840 --> 01:07:28.719
was a conscious decision made to not
collect evidence for any sort of serious examination

618
01:07:29.199 --> 01:07:32.559
other than to try and prove that
the Davidians had weaponry and firepower enough to

619
01:07:32.639 --> 01:07:44.599
kill federal agents. Some of these
bodies exhibited characteristics perhaps being shot. Did

620
01:07:44.639 --> 01:08:00.119
anyone fire from any other location?
The information that we've always been given that

621
01:08:00.159 --> 01:08:04.079
there was no federal gunfire on the
day of April nineteenth, Well, in

622
01:08:04.199 --> 01:08:10.079
reviewing the photographs and the three O
two, the statements in them, I

623
01:08:10.119 --> 01:08:18.880
would say there are some questions that
need to be affered. The FBI named

624
01:08:18.960 --> 01:08:26.600
the sniper positions Sierra one, Sierra
two, Sierra three. On April nineteenth,

625
01:08:26.720 --> 01:08:30.239
FBI Special Agent Charles Riley stated in
his after action report that he had

626
01:08:30.279 --> 01:08:34.880
heard shots fired that morning from sniper
position number one, the undercover house.

627
01:08:35.920 --> 01:08:41.800
The position was occupied by the Blue
Sniper Team, led by Special Agent Lawn

628
01:08:41.960 --> 01:08:50.520
Horyogi. Horiuchi stated that Lawn Horiuchi, does anybody remember that name? He

629
01:08:50.720 --> 01:08:58.479
is the guy who shot Vicky Weaver
in the head while she was holding her

630
01:08:58.520 --> 01:09:05.279
baby at what, yeah, the
Ruby Ridge incident that happened just before this,

631
01:09:06.079 --> 01:09:11.319
well, you know, before this, neither he nor his snipers fired

632
01:09:11.359 --> 01:09:17.159
their weapons on April nineteenth. The
fact that Agent Haruchi states in Historiol two

633
01:09:17.199 --> 01:09:21.279
that the snippers at Sarah one,
which was the under cover house, did

634
01:09:21.279 --> 01:09:26.039
not fire, and there is a
shilcase and expended shielcase and they're visible on

635
01:09:26.079 --> 01:09:31.000
the floor. Would also read of
question four. Expended shell casings are later

636
01:09:31.000 --> 01:09:38.239
found at CRA one, the location
of Agent Horyuchi's Blue Sniper Team. What

637
01:09:38.399 --> 01:09:45.319
makes this particularly interesting is mister Horiuchi
coincidentally happens to be the FBI agent who

638
01:09:45.399 --> 01:09:49.640
shot and killed Vicky Weaver at Ruby
Ridge and had been charged with manslaughter by

639
01:09:50.760 --> 01:09:57.760
the State of Idaho. In August
nineteen ninety two, white separatists for Randy

640
01:09:57.800 --> 01:10:00.520
and Vicky Weaver were involved in a
st and off with the FBI at their

641
01:10:00.520 --> 01:10:05.840
Mountain home. Agent Horyuchi shot and
killed Vicky Weaver, who was standing in

642
01:10:05.880 --> 01:10:12.079
the window of the door holding her
ten month old daughter. She would standing

643
01:10:12.079 --> 01:10:15.279
there holding baby in her arms,
holding the door so we could get in

644
01:10:15.359 --> 01:10:21.279
after they wounded me. And this
guy is still running free. According to

645
01:10:21.319 --> 01:10:29.600
an internal federal government investigation, Horyuchi
shot is termed unconstitutional. Lan Horyuchi was

646
01:10:29.640 --> 01:10:32.760
never tried. Seven months later,
he was the leader of the Blue Sniper

647
01:10:32.800 --> 01:10:38.680
Team at Waco, accompanied by most
of the FBI team from Ruby Ridge.

648
01:10:39.760 --> 01:10:44.279
Our desire was to get them out
to use non lethal means in a systematic

649
01:10:44.359 --> 01:10:47.880
manner so if they would come before
the bar and face justice, we did

650
01:10:47.880 --> 01:10:53.119
not want this to occur. At
some point we had to up the annie.

651
01:10:54.319 --> 01:11:00.239
He was continually fortifying, He was
demanding and was seeking provocation to get

652
01:11:00.279 --> 01:11:04.199
into a shootout with us, which
we were refusing to do. According to

653
01:11:04.199 --> 01:11:09.920
the FBI's on site activity log,
at nine o three am, FBI Command

654
01:11:09.960 --> 01:11:14.119
advised zero two that an unknown subject
could be seen traveling on foot at the

655
01:11:14.159 --> 01:11:18.920
back of the building. In this
aerial photo taken an approximately nine am,

656
01:11:18.960 --> 01:11:23.600
a Davidian appears to be leaving the
building and walking towards the back of the

657
01:11:23.680 --> 01:11:28.920
compound. The log indicates that Falcon
two, an FBI helicopter, took off

658
01:11:28.920 --> 01:11:33.319
to intercept the subject. As it
approaches Mount Carmel, several flashes can be

659
01:11:33.399 --> 01:11:45.000
seen coming from the side of the
helicopter. Doctor Edward Allard, a former

660
01:11:45.039 --> 01:11:49.479
supervising scientist in video and Television imagery
at the US government's Night Vision Directorate,

661
01:11:49.680 --> 01:12:00.560
examined the helicopter footage and concludes that
the flashes are gunfire. When we analyze

662
01:12:00.600 --> 01:12:04.199
these flashes as we have done in
one sixtieth of a second time frames,

663
01:12:04.800 --> 01:12:10.920
it appears that there's three shots coming
from the helicopter, but in fact,

664
01:12:11.039 --> 01:12:15.960
each one of those three shots can
be broken down into one sixtieth time frames

665
01:12:15.199 --> 01:12:18.439
sixtieth of a second, and we
find, for instance, in the first

666
01:12:18.800 --> 01:12:26.880
flash, there's five separate shots being
fired, and it's indicative of machine gun

667
01:12:26.960 --> 01:12:31.920
that's firing at about six hundred rounds
per minute. In this view of one

668
01:12:31.960 --> 01:12:36.760
of the FBI's helicopters, a pedestal
mounted machine gun can be clearly seen in

669
01:12:36.800 --> 01:12:44.960
the doorway. FBI agents did not
return any fire throughout the entire day,

670
01:12:45.720 --> 01:12:51.960
in spite of being fired upon numerous
times by occupants of the compound. On

671
01:12:53.039 --> 01:12:56.720
the other hand, since this is
on a helicopter, and people might say

672
01:12:56.800 --> 01:13:02.279
that its reflections from the windshield,
it's impossible for these shots that you're seeing

673
01:13:02.319 --> 01:13:06.119
with your own eyes had to be
solar reflections, because if it were so,

674
01:13:06.520 --> 01:13:11.399
the helicopter would have to be violently
moving back and forth like a mirror

675
01:13:11.439 --> 01:13:15.039
in your hands, and this is
impossible. So it's in our opinion,

676
01:13:15.079 --> 01:13:23.520
it's clearly machine gun fire from the
helicopter in coming out the conversation. As

677
01:13:23.560 --> 01:13:26.319
I remember, it was well,
if we come out, we'll be shot.

678
01:13:27.840 --> 01:13:30.720
According to the autopsy reports, Philip
Henry was shot several times in the

679
01:13:30.800 --> 01:13:35.199
chest, shoulder, and head.
Jimmy Riddle was shot once in the forehead.

680
01:13:35.800 --> 01:13:40.600
Neither of them had sort accumulation in
their trachia or bronchial tubes or carbon

681
01:13:40.640 --> 01:13:45.800
monoxide in their blood, indicating that
they died before the fire started. Later,

682
01:13:45.880 --> 01:13:49.439
when I saw the autopsy report and
seeing that he died of a gunshot

683
01:13:49.479 --> 01:13:55.119
wound to the head, it made
me wonder if it was in fact the

684
01:13:55.159 --> 01:14:00.640
snappers that were in the barn garage
that was in the back of the The

685
01:14:00.720 --> 01:14:06.560
autopsy reports also indicated extensive body mutilation
to Philip Henry and Jimmy Riddle. The

686
01:14:06.800 --> 01:14:11.520
entire right side of Riddle's body from
the shoulder to the hip had been torn

687
01:14:11.560 --> 01:14:16.279
away. In previous testimony, doctor
Nizam Perwani, the medical examiner, observed

688
01:14:16.279 --> 01:14:19.520
that this could have been the result
of the collapse of the building or an

689
01:14:19.600 --> 01:14:31.199
encounter with a tank tread. Philip
Henry's body was interred during the year following

690
01:14:31.239 --> 01:14:35.960
his death. However, a new
autopsy was requested by Jimmy Riddle's relatives to

691
01:14:36.000 --> 01:14:42.399
settle the circumstances surrounding the missing portion
of Riddle's body and the gunshot wound to

692
01:14:42.479 --> 01:14:47.039
his head. Doctor Ron Grazier,
the forensic pathologist who conducted the examination,

693
01:14:47.520 --> 01:14:53.560
concluded in his findings that the damage
to Riddle's skeletal remains is consistent with a

694
01:14:53.640 --> 01:14:59.359
tank having torn the body apart.
A forensic examination of the bullet entry wound

695
01:14:59.359 --> 01:15:02.960
in Jimmy rid skull could not be
conducted because the evidentiary portion of the skull

696
01:15:03.079 --> 01:15:09.279
was missing. Doctor Pierwanny performed the
original autopsy and was asked to provide a

697
01:15:09.279 --> 01:15:15.279
certified copy of his report for comparison. According to Riddle's relatives, the local

698
01:15:15.319 --> 01:15:19.960
Texas authorities and US Marshals refused to
allow doctor Pierwanny to turn over the documents.

699
01:15:20.960 --> 01:15:26.199
We got to doctor Peerwanni's office trying
to get the information on my brother

700
01:15:26.279 --> 01:15:32.520
Jimmy Riddle. Doctor Peerwanny told me
that he didn't know why they kept trying

701
01:15:32.560 --> 01:15:36.000
to keep the information from us.
He didn't know what they were hiding,

702
01:15:36.960 --> 01:15:43.640
and that he had the information,
but he was ordered by the US Marshals

703
01:15:44.079 --> 01:15:53.319
and the JP's not to release any
information to me all Americans were watching events

704
01:15:53.520 --> 01:15:57.520
fold at the front of the building. The FBI's infrared video shows what took

705
01:15:57.520 --> 01:16:01.880
place at the rear of the structure. What a flare really does is it

706
01:16:01.920 --> 01:16:09.760
takes an invisible radiation, which is
called infrared radiation, and it converts it

707
01:16:09.840 --> 01:16:15.079
into visual radiation. You might say
that we can see with the eye.

708
01:16:15.960 --> 01:16:24.520
What we have here is a tank
infantry type of an operation. As the

709
01:16:24.680 --> 01:16:30.239
tank moves forward, two men have
dropped out of the escape patch, they

710
01:16:30.359 --> 01:16:34.079
roll over, and as they roll
over, they open up with automatic gunfire.

711
01:16:35.439 --> 01:16:42.479
We've measured the actual time of the
individual flashes, and they occur at

712
01:16:42.520 --> 01:16:45.800
a fraction of a second, in
some cases a thirtieth of a second.

713
01:16:46.560 --> 01:16:53.159
There is absolutely nothing in nature that
can cause thermal flashes to occur in a

714
01:16:53.239 --> 01:16:59.439
thirtieth of a second. Somebody related
or who had prepared a film or analyzed

715
01:16:59.479 --> 01:17:03.640
a film. Representatives of the Department
and representatives of the FBI went over it

716
01:17:03.680 --> 01:17:08.920
in detail and concluded that there was
no basis for suggesting the shot that shots

717
01:17:08.920 --> 01:17:14.680
had been fired. As the tank
crushes the roof of the gymnasium, gunfire

718
01:17:14.760 --> 01:17:19.439
can be seen streaming into the dining
room from positions in the courtyard. I

719
01:17:19.560 --> 01:17:28.520
stopped counting after about sixty two individual
shots. Interviewed on NBC's Meet the Press

720
01:17:28.600 --> 01:17:32.079
on May the fourth, nineteen ninety
seven, FBI Director Lewis Free stated that

721
01:17:32.479 --> 01:17:39.159
no shots were fired by any federal
agents outside of the compound and that allegations

722
01:17:39.239 --> 01:17:44.520
raised about gunfire seemed to be based
on some inferences from infrarey flash patterns and

723
01:17:44.640 --> 01:17:48.479
heat patterns. I think the overwhelming
evidence clearly shows that no shots were fired.

724
01:17:51.159 --> 01:17:58.119
It's indicative of sunlight reflecting off something
and registering on the flare. It

725
01:17:58.239 --> 01:18:01.119
could be a thermal pattern. If
it were a thermal pattern, there is

726
01:18:01.199 --> 01:18:05.439
nothing that persists from that, so
therefore it is more likely to have been

727
01:18:05.840 --> 01:18:12.000
reflected light off of something shiny,
in which the sunlight now gives an apparent

728
01:18:12.119 --> 01:18:16.920
temperaturize. From the basic physics,
it's safe to say that it's impossible for

729
01:18:17.079 --> 01:18:25.239
the Waco flair to detect any solar
reflections of any kind on our wish list.

730
01:18:25.279 --> 01:18:30.199
As investigators was taking a harder look
at the flair, the Congressional staff

731
01:18:30.319 --> 01:18:35.319
was never able to find or take
advantage of a genuine fleer expert to watch

732
01:18:35.319 --> 01:18:43.439
the Fleaar video with US and to
understand exactly what we were seeing. By

733
01:18:43.479 --> 01:18:48.279
comparison, this Department of Defense FLEAR
video taken in Somalia in October of nineteen

734
01:18:48.359 --> 01:18:54.880
ninety three as troops exit a helicopter
shows gunfire similar to the thermal signature on

735
01:18:54.960 --> 01:19:00.439
the Fleare videotape. At Waco,
a former analyst from the US intelligence community,

736
01:19:00.640 --> 01:19:05.680
Maurice Cox, tested the FBI's claim
applying the principles of solar geometry.

737
01:19:10.760 --> 01:19:15.319
For an aircraft flying at an altitude
of nine thousand feet, a flash anomaly

738
01:19:15.359 --> 01:19:18.199
occurring on the ground would be visible
in an area only one hundred feet wide.

739
01:19:19.359 --> 01:19:25.279
Frame by frame measurements of the Fleur
videotape showed a repetition of ten flashes

740
01:19:25.319 --> 01:19:29.119
per second, the same rate as
a machine gun firing at six hundred grounds

741
01:19:29.119 --> 01:19:34.680
permitted according to the Sunlight Reflections Report. In order to duplicate these multiple flashes,

742
01:19:34.920 --> 01:19:40.319
the reflective surfaces would have to be
exactly the same shape and size and

743
01:19:40.479 --> 01:19:46.199
positioned in an array too precise to
occur by chance. To record sunlight reflections

744
01:19:46.199 --> 01:19:50.560
at ten flashes per second, the
FBI small aircraft would have had to travel

745
01:19:50.640 --> 01:20:00.359
at mock one point eight, nearly
twice the speed of sounds. The sun

746
01:20:00.399 --> 01:20:04.239
Reflection report concluded that the flash signatures
on the Waco flare video could only have

747
01:20:04.399 --> 01:20:12.800
been caused by gunfire. In January
nineteen ninety nine, mister Cox challenged Director

748
01:20:12.840 --> 01:20:19.079
Free and Bureau scientists to disprove his
findings. They did not respond. If

749
01:20:19.119 --> 01:20:25.800
someone comes to me to understand the
data, I need to tell them the

750
01:20:25.920 --> 01:20:30.760
uncertainty associated with it. If the
government is only telling them this was not

751
01:20:30.800 --> 01:20:35.560
a field of fire, well the
government is refusing to look at this,

752
01:20:36.119 --> 01:20:40.680
and anybody with their playing eyes could
see, well, something's going on there.

753
01:20:43.039 --> 01:20:45.560
You know, when you think of
a fact. They're shooting automatic weapons

754
01:20:45.560 --> 01:20:50.239
fire into a building with children in
it. There's something wrong. Doctor Allard

755
01:20:50.279 --> 01:20:57.840
has stated that this video shows gunfire
being directed into Mount Carmel from the outside

756
01:20:57.840 --> 01:21:00.520
of Mount Carmel on April nineteenth.
The only people that could have come from

757
01:21:00.640 --> 01:21:08.159
would have been federal agents. Other
flashes can be detected on the Fleer tape

758
01:21:08.159 --> 01:21:11.880
within an hour of the fire,
such as this detonation in the courtyard,

759
01:21:12.119 --> 01:21:15.760
which has a thermal signature that is
consistent with a hand grenade exploding, and

760
01:21:15.960 --> 01:21:23.239
more. Gunfire can be seen near
this tank. But if the FBI's claim

761
01:21:23.359 --> 01:21:27.640
is true and the hostage rescue team
didn't fire it, Ranch Davidians, then

762
01:21:27.720 --> 01:21:31.479
there is another possibility. According to
what we saw written in the Book of

763
01:21:31.600 --> 01:21:38.039
Nahem, we were to undergo a
military style attack. We were to be

764
01:21:38.079 --> 01:21:45.800
attacked by tanks and people from the
military. On the use of military personnel

765
01:21:45.840 --> 01:21:50.760
and heavy equipment against US citizens,
other questions linger how much was used and

766
01:21:50.880 --> 01:21:57.600
why there was concern expressed that the
FBI had only one hostage rescue team and

767
01:21:58.439 --> 01:22:02.800
they were tiring. Do you recall
that to conversation in that meeting? I

768
01:22:02.920 --> 01:22:09.279
recall I believe I asked for that
meeting. Yes. On April fourteenth,

769
01:22:09.399 --> 01:22:13.680
just five days before the fire,
a meeting was held between Attorney General Janet

770
01:22:13.680 --> 01:22:18.039
Reno, the FBI command team,
and Special Forces commanders Brigadier General Peter J.

771
01:22:18.199 --> 01:22:24.119
Schumacher and Colonel Gerald Boykan of Delta
Force. The purpose of this meeting

772
01:22:24.239 --> 01:22:30.359
was to convince Reno to authorize a
final assault at Waco. Military is trained

773
01:22:30.840 --> 01:22:35.439
to find, fix, and destroy
the enemy. You don't worry about warning

774
01:22:35.840 --> 01:22:45.239
your military enemy of constitutional rights.
What is generally known or known in public

775
01:22:45.279 --> 01:22:50.680
as the as Delta Force is a
reality called Cobbat Applications Group. So anybody

776
01:22:50.680 --> 01:22:56.399
who asks about Delta will get told
with a straight faced by the Army that

777
01:22:56.520 --> 01:23:01.239
no such organization exists. What organization
does exists as Combat Applications Group and their

778
01:23:01.880 --> 01:23:11.720
state admission is to perform counter terrorism
operations overseas and defensive US interests. Earlier

779
01:23:11.760 --> 01:23:14.960
in an opening I gave this morning
with regard to the Posse Kammaitatis Act,

780
01:23:15.800 --> 01:23:20.000
just to refresh my colleague's memory,
the Katatas Statute is a criminal statute that

781
01:23:20.159 --> 01:23:23.960
states that it's a crime to use
any part of the Army or air force

782
01:23:24.000 --> 01:23:27.600
to enforce the laws of the land
and less authorized by Congress or the Constitution.

783
01:23:28.119 --> 01:23:32.680
There is in my judgment, it
is absolutely clear that no law was

784
01:23:32.840 --> 01:23:39.079
violated, no action was taken that
comes close to violating Posse Komitatis or any

785
01:23:39.119 --> 01:23:43.319
other law. General Huffman, is
that your Do you agree with that?

786
01:23:44.079 --> 01:23:46.079
A Congressman? So far as the
Army's involvement in this, I would say

787
01:23:46.119 --> 01:23:55.600
that is correct Army delpha Amy,
Charis Team, or any other military operational

788
01:23:55.640 --> 01:23:59.920
asset. The question is are we
getting any help from from the military.

789
01:24:00.880 --> 01:24:03.640
We can the Delta teams. He
asked the questions, are we getting help

790
01:24:03.680 --> 01:24:11.079
from the Delta team and we're not. In mid March nineteen ninety three,

791
01:24:11.359 --> 01:24:17.359
I attended a Senior Executive Staff meeting
at CIA Headquarters and involved senior agency management

792
01:24:17.399 --> 01:24:24.520
along with the liaison officers from the
US military, in particular from Delta Group.

793
01:24:25.800 --> 01:24:40.560
The briefing centered on Delta's operations in
Waco, Texas. This previously classified

794
01:24:40.600 --> 01:24:45.640
military document confirms the presence of Delta
Force at Mount Carmel with approval of the

795
01:24:45.720 --> 01:24:48.960
Joint Chiefs of Staff. An observer
was deployed to the scene on March twenty

796
01:24:48.960 --> 01:24:56.279
first, nineteen ninety three, accompanied
by three other operators also characterized as observers.

797
01:24:57.960 --> 01:25:03.199
One particular soldier was questioned by a
member of the hearing and pressed and

798
01:25:03.279 --> 01:25:08.199
pressed. He did not want to
reveal even the existence of Delta Force and

799
01:25:08.239 --> 01:25:13.359
finally had to admit that they were
present. Originally, I was told that

800
01:25:13.399 --> 01:25:15.880
there was just going to be one
or two Delta personnel there as observers,

801
01:25:16.159 --> 01:25:20.720
But during the briefing it was mentioned
that there was over ten Delta operators at

802
01:25:20.720 --> 01:25:25.439
Waco, Texas and they were not
there merely as observers, but would be

803
01:25:25.479 --> 01:25:30.760
participating in any type of operational or
tactical effort against the Branch Davidians. My

804
01:25:30.880 --> 01:25:36.800
understanding is that in some way the
US Military Delta Force were advising the hostage

805
01:25:36.840 --> 01:25:44.640
rescue team from inside the tanks or
inside Brady fighting vehicles, or were present

806
01:25:44.640 --> 01:25:50.479
at the sniper posts to provide support
or assistance. And those types of activities

807
01:25:50.520 --> 01:25:57.239
to me would mean for deployed,
they were not back at a conference room

808
01:25:57.840 --> 01:26:00.560
or table giving advice or and you
ought to think about this, you thought

809
01:26:00.600 --> 01:26:09.960
they were out there a working shoulders
soldier with the HRT. Approximately a year

810
01:26:10.039 --> 01:26:15.000
after the Waco incident, I was
deployed overseas in Europe and I had the

811
01:26:15.079 --> 01:26:20.840
chance to meet some of the Delta
operators that I had been on previous assignments.

812
01:26:21.560 --> 01:26:27.479
They had told me several several different
occasions during my meets with them in

813
01:26:27.520 --> 01:26:31.520
Europe that not only were they forwardly
deployed at Waco, Texas, but they

814
01:26:31.520 --> 01:26:38.800
were actually involved in a gunfight with
the Branch Davidians. When you see the

815
01:26:39.000 --> 01:26:42.439
individuals roll out from the tank and
come around the size and start shooting into

816
01:26:42.479 --> 01:26:45.279
the building, what they're doing,
they're defending the vehicle, f HRT or

817
01:26:45.479 --> 01:26:50.520
kind of applications group, whoever was
pulling the triggers, expected resistance, expected

818
01:26:50.560 --> 01:26:55.159
shots to be fired. Then their
moves on April nineteenth made tactical sense.

819
01:26:56.119 --> 01:27:00.439
But I did talk to some Combat
Applications Group guys and they did confirm that,

820
01:27:00.520 --> 01:27:11.520
yes, the portions of B Squadron
were there poland triggers. There's no

821
01:27:11.560 --> 01:27:15.279
doubt in my mind that the flashes
on flair tape was far from us.

822
01:27:15.359 --> 01:27:18.760
Any automatic or automatic weapon fire being
returned into the building. I mean,

823
01:27:19.079 --> 01:27:24.359
it's inconsistent to even think otherwise.
There were people there on the ground with

824
01:27:24.439 --> 01:27:28.239
automatic weapons, and flashes such as
that only come from one thing, and

825
01:27:28.239 --> 01:27:31.680
it comes from rifle barrels that are
that are firing back into the building.

826
01:27:33.359 --> 01:27:40.800
Their operators had penetrated the buildings on
several occasions, planning surveillance devices, listening

827
01:27:40.840 --> 01:27:45.840
devices, sensors, and on one
occasion I believe it was April seventeenth,

828
01:27:46.039 --> 01:27:50.760
late seventeenth or eighteenth, Koresh was
actually within six feet of one of the

829
01:27:50.760 --> 01:27:56.239
operators and they RADI went back to
the Tactical Operations Center for permission to grab

830
01:27:56.319 --> 01:28:00.439
them. Within minutes, the word
came back from Justice Department. We already

831
01:28:00.439 --> 01:28:02.680
have a plan in place. That
plan, of course, being what happened

832
01:28:02.680 --> 01:28:09.800
in April nineteenth. To me,
that that would be an offensive gesture when

833
01:28:09.840 --> 01:28:14.960
you enter someone's home. That's pretty
offensive, and I would personally have a

834
01:28:15.079 --> 01:28:20.199
problem with that. I think that
it violates everything that I've been taught that

835
01:28:20.319 --> 01:28:28.119
you don't use the military against civilian
personnel. Inness Country reports that the military

836
01:28:28.159 --> 01:28:30.279
Delta Force may have been involved in
one away or another. Will you make

837
01:28:30.319 --> 01:28:34.079
an inquirg into that as well.
We will pursue any issue that is at

838
01:28:35.159 --> 01:28:45.680
at in question. I will not
let this become a show trial with law

839
01:28:45.800 --> 01:28:51.680
enforcement as the defendant. These Waco
hearings must not degenerate into a kangaroo court.

840
01:28:53.720 --> 01:28:57.479
It is unfair for us today to
look at what law enforcement did at

841
01:28:57.479 --> 01:29:01.199
Waco in a vacuum, and it
is unfair to twist the facts, making

842
01:29:01.279 --> 01:29:09.840
law enforcement the villain and David Koresh
the lawbreaker the victim. David Koresh,

843
01:29:09.880 --> 01:29:14.159
you may not think he was innocent. The mothers and the fathers of the

844
01:29:14.239 --> 01:29:18.479
children you may not think were innocent, But those seventeen children that died here

845
01:29:18.479 --> 01:29:24.960
were truly innocent. We had heard
during the meeting various scenarios that they were

846
01:29:25.000 --> 01:29:29.199
going to use down in Waco,
Texas to try to bring a speedy recovery

847
01:29:29.680 --> 01:29:32.359
or a speedy end to what was
taking place down there. And at that

848
01:29:32.439 --> 01:29:39.880
time, gas was talked about,
a couple other situations where non lethal situations

849
01:29:39.880 --> 01:29:44.000
were talked about, and the primary
concern around the table was a lot of

850
01:29:44.039 --> 01:29:46.319
the people that a lot of the
Branch Davidians that were inside the building,

851
01:29:46.760 --> 01:29:51.039
we're willing or did not want to
end their lives in such a fashion,

852
01:29:51.399 --> 01:30:01.720
especially the seventeen children that were down
there on the throne that out before you.

853
01:30:03.079 --> 01:30:13.720
Where God is he going to save
you? How? Well? People

854
01:30:13.840 --> 01:30:18.560
ask why we didn't let the children
out? If they saw all that was

855
01:30:18.640 --> 01:30:24.119
happening and they were in there with
their children, would they have sent them

856
01:30:24.119 --> 01:30:28.800
out to the animals outside that was
shooting at them and doing all those terrible

857
01:30:28.840 --> 01:30:39.520
things. No, federal law enforcement
officers obviously did make some tactical errors prior

858
01:30:39.560 --> 01:30:45.000
to enduring this tragic incident, and
I hope this body, somebody holds them

859
01:30:45.119 --> 01:30:48.680
accountable. Please, I'm pleading with
you, somebody out there on the federal

860
01:30:48.720 --> 01:30:54.640
government still screwed up big time,
Okay, but they didn't start this fire.

861
01:30:56.239 --> 01:31:00.119
Based upon the ATFS arson investigation,
accelerance were used at all points of

862
01:31:00.159 --> 01:31:08.319
origin of the fire. There's no
disagreement between us that this fire was intentionally

863
01:31:08.319 --> 01:31:13.000
started inside the compound by the people
in there using flammable liquids as acceliments.

864
01:31:13.760 --> 01:31:18.399
I don't remember who it was,
but he was pouring this liquid on the

865
01:31:18.399 --> 01:31:32.680
floor, a bubble of saying pour
it inside, poured outside. It was

866
01:31:32.760 --> 01:31:36.399
clear to us from listening to those
tapes that the government was going to be

867
01:31:36.439 --> 01:31:41.239
able to prove that the Davidians,
at least some of the Davidians had a

868
01:31:41.319 --> 01:31:45.119
plan, and that some of the
Davidians were aware of this plan. I'm

869
01:31:45.159 --> 01:31:49.880
sure that the FBI down there had
a lot of fiber optics, audio and

870
01:31:50.079 --> 01:31:54.800
visual with what we're installed in the
building there that I'm sure they knew exactly

871
01:31:54.840 --> 01:31:59.359
what the French Davidians plans were,
what their intentions were if there was an

872
01:31:59.399 --> 01:32:03.399
attack ends the buildings, such as
a gas attack like that, if they

873
01:32:03.439 --> 01:32:09.520
believe we were going to try to
enter the compound and then way to the

874
01:32:09.800 --> 01:32:12.920
over here. Sounded like there was
one comment, We're going to wait until

875
01:32:12.960 --> 01:32:17.520
they come in before we like this. Why in the world would the FBI

876
01:32:17.720 --> 01:32:24.439
make the assault knowing that information the
borderlines on criminal misconduct For the FBI to

877
01:32:24.520 --> 01:32:28.359
make that assault when they knew that
he was going to respond like that,

878
01:32:28.680 --> 01:32:33.760
particularly on the most windy day of
the year. The FBI claimed that it

879
01:32:33.880 --> 01:32:40.439
never used pyrotechnic CS rounds munitions capable
of starting a fire. However, in

880
01:32:40.479 --> 01:32:44.840
this footage made prior to the fire, two agents are seen firing projectiles from

881
01:32:44.880 --> 01:32:47.880
an M seventy nine grenade launcher into
the storm shelter at the north end of

882
01:32:47.920 --> 01:32:56.520
the building. Seconds later, white
smoke pours from the shelter. According to

883
01:32:56.560 --> 01:33:01.239
CS expert Colonel Rex Applegate, any
tear gas that create smoke is considered pyrotechnic.

884
01:33:02.960 --> 01:33:10.359
There have been some unfortunate reporting talking
about that if tear gas were utilized,

885
01:33:10.680 --> 01:33:14.520
it would deprive the children of oxygen
and it perhaps could be fatal.

886
01:33:15.319 --> 01:33:17.640
What they were describing is not the
type of tear gas that we were that

887
01:33:17.720 --> 01:33:23.880
we are using. We're using a
non pyrotechnic tear gas which does not deprive

888
01:33:24.000 --> 01:33:29.239
them of oxygen, so it is
not a lethal type gas. This is

889
01:33:29.239 --> 01:33:33.399
the US military Mark six fifty one
CS projectile recovered in the aftermath of the

890
01:33:33.439 --> 01:33:38.800
Mount Carmel fire. It is pyrotechnic
and has a burning time of twenty five

891
01:33:38.840 --> 01:33:45.520
to thirty seconds. It generates a
distinctive cloud of white smoke. I am

892
01:33:45.640 --> 01:33:51.600
very, very troubled by the information
I received this week suggesting that pyrotechnic devices

893
01:33:51.680 --> 01:33:57.079
may have been used in the early
morning hours on April the nineteenth, nineteen

894
01:33:57.199 --> 01:34:01.079
ninety three, at Waco. At
this time, all available indications are that

895
01:34:01.119 --> 01:34:06.239
the devices were not directed at the
main wooden compound, were discharged several hours

896
01:34:06.279 --> 01:34:13.600
before the fire started, and were
not the cause of the fire. In

897
01:34:13.680 --> 01:34:17.319
the fall of nineteen ninety eight,
unprecedented access to the Waco evidence lockers was

898
01:34:17.359 --> 01:34:23.800
granted. The pyrotechnic projectiles identified in
the crime scene photos were missing from the

899
01:34:23.840 --> 01:34:30.319
evidence boxes. However, two additional
forty millimeter munitions were found. These devices

900
01:34:30.359 --> 01:34:34.720
are identified by the manufacturer's literature as
pyrotechnic rounds. They were found in the

901
01:34:34.760 --> 01:34:42.000
rubble behind the compound. These munitions
were examined and the preliminary results indicated these

902
01:34:42.000 --> 01:35:11.119
devices may have passed through the wood
structure most years. I'm not embarrassed,

903
01:35:11.119 --> 01:35:16.680
I'm very, very upset. The
Arson report fails to identify the specific instruments

904
01:35:16.840 --> 01:35:20.960
used to ignite the fires or the
individuals that might have used those instruments.

905
01:35:21.680 --> 01:35:26.760
As a result, no Arson charges
were ever filed against any of the branch

906
01:35:26.840 --> 01:35:30.319
Davidians. What is not covered in
the Arson report is the presence of the

907
01:35:30.359 --> 01:35:35.159
government's own pyrotechnic devices at the points
of origin of the fire. This flash

908
01:35:35.239 --> 01:35:40.800
bang device, for example, was
found in the rubble of the dining room.

909
01:35:40.960 --> 01:35:49.239
The flash that results as the detonation
of this charge can cause a fire

910
01:35:50.800 --> 01:35:58.840
in any area where there is a
high concentration of volatile papers. In the

911
01:35:58.880 --> 01:36:03.479
evidence locker, there are six pyrotechnic
flashband grenades mislabeled as silencers or gun parts.

912
01:36:04.119 --> 01:36:08.680
According to the Texas Department of Public
Safety, they were found in the

913
01:36:08.720 --> 01:36:13.199
southwest corner of the building, the
dining room, and the chapel, all

914
01:36:13.279 --> 01:36:18.119
three points of origin of the fire. Now, maybe the government, the

915
01:36:18.279 --> 01:36:23.880
FBI, the ATF did some wrong
things, but they didn't light the fire.

916
01:36:24.640 --> 01:36:28.560
They didn't start the fire. That
is not one of these questions that

917
01:36:28.720 --> 01:36:35.359
is very debatable. There are times
when you cannot keep your job and put

918
01:36:35.399 --> 01:36:46.800
alternative explanations for data on the table. Any of us can think about,

919
01:36:46.880 --> 01:36:49.680
yeah, we'll stand a building burn
up. I don't think many people would

920
01:36:49.720 --> 01:36:56.560
do it, and I don't understand
why they didn't come out. At twelve

921
01:36:56.640 --> 01:37:00.359
ten pm, the Fleer videotape shows
at least two automatic weapons being fired into

922
01:37:00.359 --> 01:37:04.560
the back of the burning dining room, the only undamaged exit from the building.

923
01:37:11.680 --> 01:37:15.960
And what we have is we have
then firing automatic weapons and they're firing

924
01:37:15.079 --> 01:37:19.800
into the burning building, and like
some sort of a cowboy movie, they're

925
01:37:19.800 --> 01:37:26.279
retreating down the building and firing as
they're retreating. If I cannot remember something

926
01:37:26.279 --> 01:37:30.800
while sickening that I had the dude
to witness this. According to the Justice

927
01:37:30.840 --> 01:37:34.840
Department report, at least fifteen people
were found shot to death at this location.

928
01:37:38.520 --> 01:37:44.000
The FBI conducted ballistic tests, which
the Justice Department later termed inconclusive and

929
01:37:44.119 --> 01:37:49.520
rudimentary at best. Whether or not
you argue that some people committed suicide,

930
01:37:49.680 --> 01:37:54.079
yes, that may be, but
I would say the majority of the people

931
01:37:55.479 --> 01:38:03.560
the bodies that I saw were clear
cut homicide victims. When there was shooting

932
01:38:03.600 --> 01:38:06.880
going on and things like that,
it's kind of tongue in cheeked. And

933
01:38:06.960 --> 01:38:15.680
then ten man and say, why
didn't you come out as a peace officer.

934
01:38:17.079 --> 01:38:26.159
You're trained that killing people and taking
someone's life is the absolute last thing

935
01:38:26.479 --> 01:38:30.279
that you ever want to do.
Period. You signed on to help people,

936
01:38:30.880 --> 01:38:39.520
you didn't sign on to kill them. If the opinion is rendered that

937
01:38:39.560 --> 01:38:45.000
there was no shots fired from any
other location other than from within the building,

938
01:38:45.720 --> 01:38:49.840
i e. Meaning the branch Davidians
shot themselves through suicide or homicide,

939
01:38:51.159 --> 01:38:57.359
then the government is left with a
position that we are not going to do

940
01:38:57.479 --> 01:39:05.000
ballistics tasks on anyone's weapons, whether
they be bureau officials or other officials that

941
01:39:05.119 --> 01:39:12.720
might have been on the scene.
The forensic evidence on the bodies themselves is

942
01:39:12.880 --> 01:39:18.000
very trouble. The bodies were preserved
in a frozen or near frozen state inside

943
01:39:18.039 --> 01:39:25.039
two trailers for the purpose of examination. For some reason, those trailers,

944
01:39:25.079 --> 01:39:30.279
who are under the control of the
FBI, were allowed to not have any

945
01:39:30.279 --> 01:39:35.720
electricity running to them, and the
bodies deteriorated beyond which any sort of forensic

946
01:39:35.800 --> 01:39:39.760
evidence could be gathered. And we
were very, very troubled by that.

947
01:39:41.640 --> 01:39:45.720
The crime scene was declared a biohazard, and since the FBI predetermined that this

948
01:39:45.800 --> 01:39:50.720
was a mass suicide, the crime
scene investigators were instructed to sift, wash,

949
01:39:51.000 --> 01:39:56.439
and bleach the evidence associated with the
bodies, destroying much of its evidentiary

950
01:39:56.520 --> 01:40:00.479
value, grinding up all the crimes. And I'm saying to myself, on

951
01:40:00.600 --> 01:40:04.840
what the hell are they doing that
for, except for they conveniently trying to

952
01:40:04.880 --> 01:40:11.079
cover up something that they don't want
to public To note, during the siege,

953
01:40:11.680 --> 01:40:14.399
some of the women and all of
the children were sent to the bunker,

954
01:40:14.520 --> 01:40:17.319
located in the center of the compound. The bunker was an old church

955
01:40:17.359 --> 01:40:24.319
records vault which had survived a fire
several years before. It is here that

956
01:40:24.439 --> 01:40:29.960
the remains of some of the women
and the young children were found. Based

957
01:40:30.000 --> 01:40:36.720
upon the fact that the majority of
the women and children protected themselves by dousing

958
01:40:36.760 --> 01:40:43.079
themselves with water and blankets, trying
to keep the smoke to a minimum,

959
01:40:43.119 --> 01:40:49.479
trying to prolong themselves their life in
a nearly fireproof container, clearly demonstrates that

960
01:40:49.520 --> 01:40:53.439
they weren't embracing the flame, that
they were trying to flee the flame.

961
01:40:54.640 --> 01:40:58.680
According to their autopsy reports, some
of the children were still alive during the

962
01:40:58.760 --> 01:41:01.399
fire, but based upon the condition
of their bodies, there was evidence of

963
01:41:01.399 --> 01:41:12.600
a deadly explosion. I read that
the FBI on foot, entered the building,

964
01:41:12.840 --> 01:41:16.800
shot the Davidians, and planted an
explosive device on top of the church

965
01:41:16.920 --> 01:41:19.439
vault that he called it. We
referred to it as the bunker because it's

966
01:41:19.439 --> 01:41:25.119
a concrete center block. Um.
That's another theory that did not could not

967
01:41:25.239 --> 01:41:30.359
have possibly happened in this particular incident. Referring to that explosion, the explosion

968
01:41:30.399 --> 01:41:39.399
happened well after the building was totally
destroyed it It was very unlikely that that

969
01:41:39.800 --> 01:41:45.319
explosion was anything other than a propane
cylinder. The fireball was created by a

970
01:41:45.399 --> 01:41:50.079
ruptured propane tank on the ground adjacent
to the bunker. But a large hole

971
01:41:50.119 --> 01:41:55.199
in the roof of the bunker has
never had an official acknowledgement or explanation.

972
01:41:56.960 --> 01:42:00.319
What it tells me is that you
had a demolition charge went off on the

973
01:42:00.399 --> 01:42:09.279
roof. General Ben Parton, a
former military explosive expert, testified that there

974
01:42:09.279 --> 01:42:14.039
were two explosions. This footage shows
the detonation of a high explosive device on

975
01:42:14.079 --> 01:42:25.279
the bunker, which appears to ignite
gas from a ruptured propane tank. After

976
01:42:25.359 --> 01:42:30.600
completion of the FBI in Texas Rangers
investigation, the bunker was bulldozed into rubble.

977
01:42:30.199 --> 01:42:33.880
Six years later, in nineteen ninety
nine, permission was granted to test

978
01:42:33.920 --> 01:42:38.920
the residue from the bland. Strangely, however, that portion of the bunker

979
01:42:39.279 --> 01:42:45.079
was not found after a thorough search
of the rubble. That's a child's I

980
01:42:45.079 --> 01:42:46.920
mean, that's just I would think
the one year old. Yeah see this

981
01:42:47.319 --> 01:42:56.359
boom? Yeah, you know.
According to the FBI and ATF investigation,

982
01:42:56.880 --> 01:43:01.159
the Branch Davidians did possess some low
order explosives like gunpowder, but this would

983
01:43:01.159 --> 01:43:05.560
not be capable of penetrating six to
eight inches of steel reinforced concrete like a

984
01:43:05.640 --> 01:43:11.760
high order explosive such as TNT.
The blast hole at the top of the

985
01:43:11.840 --> 01:43:16.199
roof you can plainly see the rebar
is spent in. The damage to the

986
01:43:16.239 --> 01:43:23.319
stainless steel refrigerator which appears to have
been under the blast holes consistent with a

987
01:43:23.399 --> 01:43:29.479
shape charge and the blast being directed
downward into the room and this enclosed concrete

988
01:43:29.520 --> 01:43:34.319
room would very likely cause them steam
rupture and create a huge overpressure inside the

989
01:43:34.359 --> 01:43:40.960
room that would pretty much kill everybody
in there. To anybody who was under

990
01:43:41.439 --> 01:43:45.079
this device when it was when it
was blown, would have been horribly mangled,

991
01:43:45.439 --> 01:43:55.640
probably dismembered, pretty much like being
thrown into a grain thresher. Having

992
01:43:56.159 --> 01:44:05.479
examined still photographs and videotape of the
bunker, it was apparent to me that

993
01:44:06.319 --> 01:44:15.560
this was caused by a shape charge. But what bothers me is who would

994
01:44:15.600 --> 01:44:21.920
have the audacity to use such a
charge rather than risk your own people going

995
01:44:21.920 --> 01:44:27.119
in there and trying to shoot it
out with them. That's a standard.

996
01:44:27.239 --> 01:44:33.119
That's a standard tactic in city fighting. Children and women unarmed, trying to

997
01:44:33.199 --> 01:44:38.359
save their lives, that's who he's
talking about, trying trying to protect themselves

998
01:44:38.359 --> 01:44:44.279
from and military operations have built up
terrain to use explosives in this manner to

999
01:44:45.039 --> 01:44:49.399
kill people in the targeted room that
you're going to tack. The military's advice

1000
01:44:49.439 --> 01:44:55.039
to the FBI was that it should
focus on the leadership and capture or kill

1001
01:44:55.239 --> 01:45:00.560
David Koresh. It was to our
benefit that we were able to ben him

1002
01:45:00.600 --> 01:45:03.760
from carrying out the second part of
his prophecy, and that is that he

1003
01:45:03.800 --> 01:45:09.279
intended to kill as many members of
law enforcement as he could before his members

1004
01:45:09.319 --> 01:45:13.239
were killed. It was to our
benefit, and we're most fortunate the number

1005
01:45:13.279 --> 01:45:17.159
of our none of our people were
injured well, it's very obvious that the

1006
01:45:17.279 --> 01:45:26.479
effort there was demonstrated there assured that
there would be no survivors. In the

1007
01:45:26.600 --> 01:45:36.399
church records, Vault was the Attorney
General pressured by the White House to end

1008
01:45:36.439 --> 01:45:42.359
the siege. What were the roles
of Webster, Hubble and Vince Foster who

1009
01:45:42.399 --> 01:45:45.520
actually made the decision to use cs
gas with twenty two children inside the Davidian

1010
01:45:45.600 --> 01:45:54.680
compound after two years? Why is
there still no clear answer rangers had Remember,

1011
01:45:54.920 --> 01:46:00.920
it's pretty darnlikely that the Clinton's had
Vince Foster killed two culties. Working

1012
01:46:01.000 --> 01:46:05.760
with the FBI, they had a
major responsibility, We had our responsibility,

1013
01:46:05.800 --> 01:46:10.039
and they seemed not to go hand
in hand. And as I recall,

1014
01:46:10.119 --> 01:46:13.880
I testified for Congress about having a
name in the White House. I could

1015
01:46:13.880 --> 01:46:18.560
have called to solicit the support of
the federal authorities in our objective, and

1016
01:46:18.720 --> 01:46:26.760
it turned out to be Vince Foster. Mister Hubbull, do you recall a

1017
01:46:26.840 --> 01:46:33.479
meeting on or about the fourteenth or
fifteenth of April that you attended with Vince

1018
01:46:33.600 --> 01:46:41.159
Foster, with mister Neusbaum, and
I guess some others, in which was

1019
01:46:41.199 --> 01:46:45.439
really a churning point. Did you
or others at that meeting recommend or was

1020
01:46:45.439 --> 01:46:50.319
there any discussion about the use of
military force or equipment. There was not

1021
01:46:50.439 --> 01:46:57.479
any discussion about use of military force. There was discussion of having the military

1022
01:46:59.079 --> 01:47:05.359
evaluate the FBI's plan. The briefings
by General Schumacher and Colonel Boykan of Delta

1023
01:47:05.399 --> 01:47:11.720
Force gave Attorney General Janet Reno the
assurances she needed to okay the FBI assault

1024
01:47:11.760 --> 01:47:15.800
plan. Presidential Counsel Vince Foster was
the White House's point man for the Waco

1025
01:47:15.880 --> 01:47:21.880
affair. Ninety days later, Foster
commits suicide. He had a lot of

1026
01:47:21.880 --> 01:47:26.199
things on his plate at the time, the firing a travel office being one,

1027
01:47:26.640 --> 01:47:30.760
but nobody was killed in that one. What I think was really on

1028
01:47:30.840 --> 01:47:38.880
his mind was Waco. To this
day, I don't understand what he meant

1029
01:47:38.920 --> 01:47:46.399
by the FBI lied to me.
Missus Foster said that her husband was depressed

1030
01:47:46.399 --> 01:47:54.880
about a number of matters, and
she ranked the Waco tragedy very high,

1031
01:47:54.920 --> 01:48:00.720
as any of us would who are
responsible for such an activity that resulted in

1032
01:48:00.760 --> 01:48:06.800
such a tragedy. In this FBI
three O two report, Missus Foster indicates

1033
01:48:06.840 --> 01:48:11.159
that her husband was troubled by the
deaths of the children at Waco, and

1034
01:48:11.319 --> 01:48:17.680
believe that everything was his fault.
When you are troubled by something and you

1035
01:48:17.720 --> 01:48:23.520
feel responsible for something, you can
only feel responsible for it if you could

1036
01:48:23.520 --> 01:48:28.079
have done something about him. And
I would take this as a cover up

1037
01:48:28.119 --> 01:48:30.119
of the Clinton's actions to actually kill
him because they were afraid he was going

1038
01:48:30.159 --> 01:48:38.760
to talk. Perhaps mister Foster felt
that he could have done something about Waco,

1039
01:48:39.560 --> 01:48:46.800
whether he tried to intervene, whether
he was overruled. The extensive use

1040
01:48:46.880 --> 01:48:53.600
of governmental privileges against grand jury and
criminal investigations has of course been a pattern

1041
01:48:53.800 --> 01:48:59.920
through this administration. Most notably,
the White House cited privilege in nineteen nine

1042
01:49:00.199 --> 01:49:08.039
three to prevent Justice Department and Park
Police officials from reviewing documents in Vincent Foster's

1043
01:49:08.079 --> 01:49:13.119
office in the days after his tragic
death. The day after Vince Foster died,

1044
01:49:13.439 --> 01:49:15.920
I got a phone call from a
fellow who used to be on my

1045
01:49:15.039 --> 01:49:21.319
squad, who told me that they
not explaining who they were, but they

1046
01:49:21.359 --> 01:49:28.399
had agreed that the FBI was going
to come over and do a regular crime

1047
01:49:28.479 --> 01:49:35.359
scene search of Vince Foster's office.
During the Whitewater investigation, Deborah Goren testified

1048
01:49:35.399 --> 01:49:41.239
she saw a Waco file in the
security file cabinet next to mister Foster's desk.

1049
01:49:42.119 --> 01:49:45.479
In addition, Michael Chertoff, counsel
for the Senate Committee, inquired about

1050
01:49:45.479 --> 01:49:51.039
a letter by Vince Foster involving Waco. Neither was ever recovered during or after

1051
01:49:51.079 --> 01:49:58.680
the crime scene search, and their
whereabouts are still unknown. However, Whitehall's

1052
01:49:58.720 --> 01:50:03.479
Secret Service agent, Harry O'Neill testified
that Maggie Williams was seen removing files from

1053
01:50:03.520 --> 01:50:09.560
Foster's office the night of his death. Thomas Castleton, an intern and mister

1054
01:50:09.640 --> 01:50:15.720
Foster's assistant, testified that he had
also removed a box of files. Just

1055
01:50:15.840 --> 01:50:18.399
let you know where we are in
the state of the record. We have

1056
01:50:18.720 --> 01:50:24.960
received evidence that, in fact the
box was in mister Forster's office. Did

1057
01:50:24.960 --> 01:50:29.720
you understand the box you were taking
up was a box of files that originated

1058
01:50:29.760 --> 01:50:32.720
in mister Forrester's office. I did
understand that, sir. You heard that

1059
01:50:32.760 --> 01:50:36.279
from Maggie Williams. Yes, And
in fact it was Maggie Williams, the

1060
01:50:36.359 --> 01:50:42.520
chief of staff to the first lady
that you accompanied in taking this box up

1061
01:50:42.520 --> 01:50:46.119
to the residence. Right, that's
right. What were you told by Maggie

1062
01:50:46.159 --> 01:50:51.319
Williams about why the box was being
taken up to the residence. I was

1063
01:50:51.359 --> 01:50:56.920
told that the contents of the box
needed to be reviewed, reviewed by whom

1064
01:50:57.159 --> 01:51:02.399
by the First Lady, Maggie Williams
was missus Clinton's chief of staff. Maggie

1065
01:51:02.439 --> 01:51:08.279
Williams took out, can't you can't
call anything else but what it is.

1066
01:51:08.279 --> 01:51:14.079
It was evidence. One of the
interesting things that happens in an investigation is

1067
01:51:14.119 --> 01:51:17.920
you begin to get anonymous phone calls, and we in fact received anonymous phone

1068
01:51:17.920 --> 01:51:26.319
calls from Justice Department managers and attorneys
who believed that pressure was placed on Janet

1069
01:51:26.359 --> 01:51:30.479
reno A byweb Hubble, and pressure
that came from the First Lady of the

1070
01:51:30.560 --> 01:51:36.760
United States. Now, we believed
that because the military was President Waco in

1071
01:51:36.880 --> 01:51:42.840
some capacity, that the President may
have made a decision to allow that to

1072
01:51:42.880 --> 01:51:46.279
happen, following some sort of a
legal protocol where he says this is of

1073
01:51:46.319 --> 01:51:49.399
such a serious nature, they need
to be involved. And we asked for

1074
01:51:49.439 --> 01:51:56.319
those documents and asked to see National
Security Council documents, and we're not provided

1075
01:51:56.359 --> 01:52:00.520
with any information that enabled us to
reach a conclusion. It's a serious allegation

1076
01:52:01.319 --> 01:52:09.520
that the President interfered with changed moved
up the decision, and we can't just

1077
01:52:09.720 --> 01:52:16.399
bandy these things around unless we have
some real evidence. If Combat Applications Group

1078
01:52:16.439 --> 01:52:21.439
was on the ground that day,
actually, Paul and Triggers, the origin

1079
01:52:21.600 --> 01:52:26.359
of that operation would have come directly
from the White House, who would have

1080
01:52:26.359 --> 01:52:30.399
come from the President, because Combat
Applications Group is, for all the tests

1081
01:52:30.399 --> 01:52:34.800
of purposes, the President's private army. It was discussed at the meeting that

1082
01:52:34.880 --> 01:52:40.960
the senior levels of the Clinton administration
had authorized Delta to be deployed two Waco,

1083
01:52:41.079 --> 01:52:44.920
Texas, and not just two or
three people deployed there, but enough

1084
01:52:44.920 --> 01:52:48.119
people there to get the job done. As we come to an end,

1085
01:52:48.560 --> 01:52:55.000
all of us are looking for anything
that happened in these hearings after eight days

1086
01:52:55.039 --> 01:53:00.359
and nights to indicate not that General
areno had something to do with this,

1087
01:53:00.880 --> 01:53:06.239
but now the President, well,
after we've exhausted that bit, the only

1088
01:53:06.279 --> 01:53:11.039
one left that I can think of
is the butler. Maybe the butler did

1089
01:53:11.079 --> 01:53:15.840
it. I am surprised you hadn't
tried disappointed a butler. By now,

1090
01:53:24.119 --> 01:53:30.359
our disappointment could not have been greater
as professionals and as humans who care about

1091
01:53:30.359 --> 01:53:36.600
the plight of others. When the
investigation was terminated by Congress. As I

1092
01:53:36.720 --> 01:53:43.000
count up the deaths here eighty six
and then if you want to make the

1093
01:53:43.159 --> 01:53:48.399
leap, then Oklahoma City has some
connection because it was done on the anniversary

1094
01:53:48.479 --> 01:53:54.520
of Waco. That's another one hundred
and sixty, give or take. So

1095
01:53:54.600 --> 01:54:00.119
you're talking two hundred and forty six
lives. And for this Congress to try

1096
01:54:00.159 --> 01:54:06.119
to oversee what the hell happen and
how did it happen, it just seems

1097
01:54:06.199 --> 01:54:13.000
to be talking about the butler did
it at a little capricious, a little

1098
01:54:13.000 --> 01:54:18.600
frivolsten. That's just my opinion.
I yield my time to mister mccumman.

1099
01:54:20.199 --> 01:54:24.399
It's a struggle we've had. I
was an attorney general in the Freedom Information

1100
01:54:24.439 --> 01:54:29.039
Act was passed, and the government
hated the Freedom of Information Act. That

1101
01:54:29.119 --> 01:54:33.720
hated me for pressing for it,
because they don't want to be questioned about

1102
01:54:33.720 --> 01:54:36.199
what they do. They don't want
to have to explain what they do.

1103
01:54:36.560 --> 01:54:39.960
And yet, if you want to
be a free society, if you want

1104
01:54:40.000 --> 01:54:45.680
to have justice, if you want
to avoid a police state, you better

1105
01:54:45.760 --> 01:54:48.520
know what your government does. You
better insist upon a right to know what

1106
01:54:48.600 --> 01:55:00.600
your government does. Even though you
have a twenty million dollar investigation. You

1107
01:55:00.640 --> 01:55:04.079
don't have twenty million dollars answers.
There's nothing about Waco I feel good about.

1108
01:55:05.119 --> 01:55:15.640
But imagine seeing small children disarticulated with
bullets and debris and having to pick

1109
01:55:15.720 --> 01:55:17.279
up their body and their head comes
off in your left hand, and their

1110
01:55:17.279 --> 01:55:21.560
body comes apart in your right hand, And I mean that leaves a horrible,

1111
01:55:21.920 --> 01:55:38.600
absolutely indelible etched in your brain memory
of a tragedy. The prosecutors during

1112
01:55:38.600 --> 01:55:44.119
our trial try to prove conspiracy and
murder, and all eleven defendants were found

1113
01:55:44.119 --> 01:55:46.720
by a jury to be not guilty
of those two charges. And I think

1114
01:55:46.720 --> 01:55:55.840
that, to me is for the
President and for any media or anybody in

1115
01:55:55.880 --> 01:56:02.560
this committee to continue to refer to
us as utterers. I feel that's unjust.

1116
01:56:04.920 --> 01:56:09.479
The government cannot be proud about what
they did on February the twenty eighth,

1117
01:56:09.920 --> 01:56:13.800
They cannot be proud about what they
did on April the nineteenth, and

1118
01:56:13.840 --> 01:56:17.560
they certainly can't be happy about what
this jury said to them today. We

1119
01:56:17.760 --> 01:56:24.600
found all of the defendants not guilty
of conspiracy to commit murder and of murder.

1120
01:56:25.520 --> 01:56:27.840
In essence, there was no way
we could say that they did not

1121
01:56:28.000 --> 01:56:32.720
use firearms. I think the jury
totally rejected the scary idea that came out

1122
01:56:32.760 --> 01:56:39.279
in final argument. If someone who
would study a certain religion by a virtue

1123
01:56:39.279 --> 01:56:44.800
of the way he thinks would be
guilty of a conspiracy to murder federal agents.

1124
01:56:45.239 --> 01:56:48.479
That I think is one clear message
that came out of this trial,

1125
01:56:49.520 --> 01:56:56.199
but we came to realize too late
to correct, was that we could not

1126
01:56:56.279 --> 01:57:00.960
have found them guilty of using firearms
without having them found them guilty of either

1127
01:57:01.000 --> 01:57:09.039
conspiracy to murder or murder. Those
two charges were tied together. When the

1128
01:57:09.159 --> 01:57:13.279
judge looked at the jury's verdict,
he said that this finding of guilty to

1129
01:57:13.399 --> 01:57:18.479
commission of a federal offense is inconsistent. I'll throw it out. But then

1130
01:57:18.520 --> 01:57:24.199
he changed his mind, and when
it came to sentencing, he stood the

1131
01:57:24.279 --> 01:57:29.800
jury's verdict on his head. He
said in his sentencing speech that since they

1132
01:57:29.800 --> 01:57:33.640
were guilty of using a weapon and
the commission of a federal offense, he

1133
01:57:33.720 --> 01:57:41.840
would find that the federal offense was
murder and conspiracy to commit murder. He

1134
01:57:42.000 --> 01:57:45.600
went further on to say, you
murdered not only the ATF agents, but

1135
01:57:45.760 --> 01:57:54.159
your own co religionist. Federal sentencing
guidelines allowed Judge Smith to choose the sentence

1136
01:57:54.159 --> 01:57:59.079
of between five and forty years.
He gave all but two defendants the maximum

1137
01:57:59.119 --> 01:58:03.359
sentence of four years in federal prison. I knew what was going to happen.

1138
01:58:03.399 --> 01:58:08.359
I knew what the agents were going
to say. What They're gonna blame

1139
01:58:09.560 --> 01:58:18.319
myself, and I was in there
for but you know, it was just

1140
01:58:20.560 --> 01:58:25.640
something I had to go through.
I'm a school teacher and it's, you

1141
01:58:25.680 --> 01:58:28.960
know, a good opportunity for me
to get away from the kids and forget

1142
01:58:28.920 --> 01:58:30.520
a bit all about them for a
while and just come and relaxed for a

1143
01:58:30.520 --> 01:58:39.560
while. Paul Fadder was not at
the initial February twenty eighth shootout with the

1144
01:58:39.560 --> 01:58:43.760
ADF, but was charged with aiding
and a betting and was also given a

1145
01:58:43.880 --> 01:58:48.520
maximum sentence of fifteen years. I
don't like being in prison, you know.

1146
01:58:48.600 --> 01:58:54.399
I don't like this situation. It's
it's a feudal experience. I don't

1147
01:58:54.479 --> 01:59:00.319
understand it. I don't think it's
making me a better person or it's but

1148
01:59:00.479 --> 01:59:05.520
I believe it's all for a reason. The system had every opportunity to be

1149
01:59:05.680 --> 01:59:13.840
fair and honest and truthful and treat
us properly, and they chose not to.

1150
01:59:14.079 --> 01:59:18.399
They chose to lie, to deceive, and to cover up, to

1151
01:59:18.640 --> 01:59:26.800
cover their positions or their retirement or
their whatever it may be. And that's

1152
01:59:26.840 --> 01:59:29.319
something they got to deal with.
They got to look at their selves in

1153
01:59:29.359 --> 01:59:33.479
the mirror every morning and say that, hey, I made decisions that ended

1154
01:59:33.560 --> 01:59:45.359
up costing a lot of people their
lives. I want to say that Branch

1155
01:59:45.479 --> 01:59:54.399
Davidians and not anti government, why
not anti law enforcement? And I'm sorry.

1156
01:59:56.119 --> 02:00:01.279
There are four agents that have did
and they're love a wounded, but

1157
02:00:01.439 --> 02:00:26.399
we lost eighty five friends and family
too kind it was unnecessary. I hear

1158
02:00:26.439 --> 02:00:30.000
a lot of people saying that,
you know that they hope this will never

1159
02:00:30.039 --> 02:00:39.560
happen again. What happened to us. I believe that what happened to us

1160
02:00:39.680 --> 02:00:46.279
was just the beginning. Many of
us had a heartfelt concern for individuals that

1161
02:00:46.399 --> 02:00:50.560
chose to a particular lifestyle that was
a little bit of an off brand lifestyle

1162
02:00:51.239 --> 02:00:59.439
and who were cavalierly thought of as
unimportant and thought of as people who simply

1163
02:00:59.479 --> 02:01:05.840
committed suicide or simply burned themselves up. And that claim being so widely held

1164
02:01:05.840 --> 02:01:11.319
by everything is also the type of
thing that the investigator wants to get in

1165
02:01:11.560 --> 02:01:18.960
under and really find out if there's
another side of the stream. They were

1166
02:01:19.039 --> 02:01:26.279
my life. They meant everything to
mine, and I still do no thank

1167
02:01:26.319 --> 02:01:29.479
God for the hope. But one
day, and I hope it's soon,

1168
02:01:30.239 --> 02:01:32.279
that I'll be able to put my
arms around them and play with them a

1169
02:01:32.399 --> 02:01:39.720
game and take care of them,
God willing. We cannot put this government

1170
02:01:40.439 --> 02:01:44.199
in the seat of God and go
along with this government and say, look,

1171
02:01:44.319 --> 02:01:47.119
you can take life anytime you will
please, just like you did right

1172
02:01:47.119 --> 02:01:50.640
before our very eyes. We had
a play by play, just like it

1173
02:01:50.720 --> 02:01:55.720
was a football game. But you
can't do this, you know. I

1174
02:01:55.760 --> 02:01:58.880
think the media needs to be the
watchdog for the people. I mean,

1175
02:01:58.920 --> 02:02:01.720
that's why it's the first endment,
if not second, not to sixteenth,

1176
02:02:01.720 --> 02:02:06.319
it's the first amendment. Somebody way
back when thought it was very important that

1177
02:02:06.359 --> 02:02:10.399
the media would be the watchdog imy
and in this system of checks and balances,

1178
02:02:10.600 --> 02:02:24.319
and in this instance it was a
sleep. If we choose to learn

1179
02:02:24.399 --> 02:02:29.439
from our mistakes, it is from
admitting our errors that we come closer to

1180
02:02:29.520 --> 02:02:35.039
understanding how we might prevent tragedies like
these from happening in the future. Those

1181
02:02:35.119 --> 02:02:42.039
who cannot admit their mistakes. Well, all we can do is offer our

1182
02:02:42.039 --> 02:02:48.560
prayers. Our government is an imperfect
one compromise of imperfect people. It can

1183
02:02:48.600 --> 02:02:54.079
only be as good as we choose
to make it. We have come too

1184
02:02:54.079 --> 02:02:58.600
far to quit or to coast.
We must continue to make it better.

1185
02:03:00.039 --> 02:03:06.159
We must not allow ourselves to become
bitter, only better. Perhaps the greatest

1186
02:03:06.199 --> 02:03:13.319
lesson to be learned is often the
most difficult to remember until it's too late.

1187
02:03:14.399 --> 02:03:19.000
And that is life is very precious. It happens in moments, seconds,

1188
02:03:19.680 --> 02:03:26.479
not minutes, not hours, but
in moments. And let us forgive,

1189
02:03:27.640 --> 02:03:46.800
but let us never forget as we
move from ashes to understanding. As

1190
02:03:46.840 --> 02:03:50.439
a result of the evidence uncovered by
the making of this documentary, both the

1191
02:03:50.520 --> 02:03:56.760
US Senate and House of Representatives have
opened new investigations, which are expected to

1192
02:03:56.840 --> 02:04:00.760
result in full congressional hearings. This
was a long time ago, though.

1193
02:04:16.319 --> 02:04:21.880
In addition, US Attorney General Janet
Reno has appointed former Senator John dan Forth

1194
02:04:21.920 --> 02:04:28.680
to conduct a full and independent investigation
to determine the facts behind the Waco tragedy.

1195
02:04:43.680 --> 02:04:46.079
All of us, all right,
that's the end of it. He's

1196
02:04:46.199 --> 02:04:48.720
playing music at the end. I
believe here the rest of it. Let

1197
02:04:48.760 --> 02:04:57.560
me just little check make sure and
all. I'm pretty sure it's just music.

1198
02:04:57.560 --> 02:05:10.159
Fillt thing out. Yeah, let's
see. Yeah, yeah, it's

1199
02:05:10.159 --> 02:05:12.880
all the music at the end.
Okay, So there you have it.

1200
02:05:13.039 --> 02:05:15.600
I don't know if I have anything
I need to say after all that,

1201
02:05:15.079 --> 02:05:23.800
um, pretty emotional throughout that I'm
not afraid to say it can't Dancy and

1202
02:05:23.840 --> 02:05:29.399
kids getting hurt? All right,
Well that's that. You'll see me again.

1203
02:05:29.439 --> 02:05:33.279
It's pretty soon with the return of
Jack Anthony, a good friend of

1204
02:05:33.319 --> 02:05:36.039
ours, for the Jack Anthony Show
that I'll be coming up in a live

1205
02:05:36.079 --> 02:05:42.319
stream. Susan, my daughter goes
to bit bye oh yeah, and uh

1206
02:05:42.560 --> 02:05:44.560
thanks at the bottoms. You want
to help people out, and you can

1207
02:05:44.640 --> 02:05:48.239
go to semper fri lc dot com
and get the link by clicking the picture

1208
02:05:48.359 --> 02:05:53.840
of doctor Bonzo to go druxy to
the site and then keep on goods right

1209
02:05:53.880 --> 02:05:57.119
there for you know what. All
right,