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Hello, and welcome to the show. I'm Martin Willshire, host and how

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fitting tonight is Super Tuesday, and
with a guest like Dave Marler, it's

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Super Tuesday here as well. I
hope there are great researchers in the future.

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Um like David is, he's kind
of a dying breed. Um.

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He gets really deep into whatever he's
investigating. And for people that are new

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paying paying attention to this subject,
pay attention to whatever Dave Marler, David

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Marlin has to say. In my
opinion, I'm not telling you what to

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do, I'm just suggesting there.
For instance, you know, there's no

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one in the entire planet that has
done the job with the Triangle UFOs that

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David has done. It's a stellar
book. I have it. I suggest

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if you have an interest to go
out and get it. It's called Triangle

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UFOs and Estimate of the Situation and
it's it's it's well, it's as good

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as it gets on that type of
investigation and very very interesting. I learned

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so much from reading that book.
Well, Dave's focus has turned to a

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very interesting case and that is a
topic. We are going to talk about

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that and we're going to be playing
some audio clips and we're going to play

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actually, after a break, we're
going to play a video clip for those

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people over on YouTube. But don't
worry, the podcaster will still get to

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listen to audio on that. And
this was a case that happened. It's

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an unknown case to kind of lost
in time and David dug it out of

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time fifty some odd years ago.
This happened back in nineteen sixty four in

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New Mexico, and it's an incredibly
credible I have David has shared some things

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with me, and so I'm real, real excited about tonight's show, Super

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Tuesday Show. So I want to
thank everyone that helps out with show.

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There's people that help out with support. I really do appreciate that. And

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there's a lot of people behind the
scenes as well. And I want to

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thank Peggy as well. She helps
out with the Facebook page. I think

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she's been doing six years or something
like that. I looked the other day

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in our first email back and forth, it was two thousand and twelve,

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so she'd been at this a long
time. And next month we're going to

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have our four hundredth show. That's
yes, that's right, four hundred show

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on this we'll do a little celebration
of some kind when that happens. I

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do appreciate every listener to the show, and again I do appreciate the supporters.

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Anyone can help out if you're not
helping out. We have a Patreon

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page and that information is white right
on our website, so check that out.

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We also have we have a blog, as we do every week from

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Charles Lear. He's down in New
York. He writes blogs for us,

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does a wonderful job. I love
this week's blog. It's called when UFOs

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We're Flying Saucers, and check that
out. He's got a lot of information

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and in his blogs also he links
to two things that he is writing about

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in the article. So that's on
podcast ufo dot com. And the link

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to this YouTube channel is on there
for those of you who are not on

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YouTube, you can check it out
sometime. There's also how to subscribe to

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listen to the podcast in your media
player, and again everything is on the

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website Sticher, you name it.
All that information is there, and we

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also have a banner up for the
Ariel phenomenon. I'm going to be meeting

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up with Randall Nicholson soon and find
out what the heck's going on with that

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film. I can't wait for that
to come out. There's going to be

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a lot of really great films coming
out this year, including James Fox,

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The Phenomenon, and Too Bad.
They both have a similar name, Ariel

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Phenomenon. I don't think you're going
to get them confused though. So with

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all of that, I think I
was going to talk a little bit about

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UFO News, but you know what, We're going to have a jam packed

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show with our guest tonight, so
I don't want to take any more time.

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David, Welcome to the show.
Thank you, Martin. It's great

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to be here again. I'm very
excited about tonight's discussion. And as I

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think I mentioned to you offline,
this is my first time publicly discussing this

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case anywhere. That's right. I
meant to say that I meant to make

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more of a big deal of that
part of it. Well, it truly

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is an exclusive for UFO Podcast in
that respect, and so I've shared some

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information, as you alluded to the
audience, regarding this case, just to

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kind of give you a flavor of
what it entails. And to your point,

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we do have a lot of material
to cover before we get into it,

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though, I always like to take
a step back, and I'll be

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mentioning this in some upcoming conferences where
I'll be presenting this in April. A

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lot of people I've noticed online will
comment with regard to maybe my Farmington flying

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saucer or model research from nineteen fifty
or the Battle of la from February nineteen

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forty two, Well, why are
we talking about these old cases? And

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the question I often get asked you
do as well, is what's new?

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Well, my attitude is I don't
care what's new. I care what's credible,

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and you is not necessarily equate with
credible. In fact, I would

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argue many of the historic cases were
better documented than what we're receiving today.

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And by that I mean when you
have newspapers and news reporters going out to

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the homes of the eyewitnesses. It
doesn't necessarily confirm the veracity of their claims,

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but at least the investigators and the
researchers from that time did their due

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diligence, went to the person's home, established they are who they claimed they

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are. Today, you know,
we had these ubiquitous UFO reports being filed

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by ufobob at Yahoo dot com and
we don't even know who that is.

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And in most cases the researchers,
even though they're they're well meaning, they

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don't have the resources to try to
track down who that was that posted that

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on whatever website you might find it. And so looking at these historic cases,

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I think it's very important because,
as I mentioned, they seem to

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be more credible in many respects,
especially when as we're going to see in

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the case we're going to discuss this
evening, this Hobbs, New Mexico case,

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where we not only have the sighting
of a light in the sky,

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as most UFO reports are, we
have the sighting of a structured object during

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daylight hours, but more specifically a
structured object during daylight hours that physically burned

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and severely injured an eight year old
boy. And what's interesting about this case

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is the fact that after fifty six
years, this witness has never come forward

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publicly other than the initial media attention
that it garnered at the time, and

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even then, as you alluded to
in the introduction, there was very minimal

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UFO research done. This case was
originally investigated by the APRO organization or Aerial

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Phenomenon research organization headed up by Jim
and Coral Lorenzen, but based on my

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research, the extent of their investigation
into the case consisted of just phone calls,

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not even on site investigation. And
in addition, before we delve into

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it to what the appetite of the
audience, this was also investigated and documented

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in the newspapers from the time by
the Hobbes New Mexico Police Department, and

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in point of fact, the Federal
Brewer of Investigation the FBI was involved in

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this investigation. So we know something
happened, but after fifty six years,

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we're still trying to wrestle with what. And then as we get into the

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discussion this evening again wedding the appetite
of the audience, we'll talk about Hobbes,

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but then hopefully we'll have time to
talk about other cases that happen in

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the wake of Hobbes that bear striking
similarities. Yeah, Dave, you just

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mentioned about you know, UFO Bob
for instance, and I got it caught

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up. I just want to tell
you a situation. I think I mentioned

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this on a prior show, but
I got caught up a little bit with

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everyone sending me this video and information
about it was on YouTube and it looked

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like a pretty darn good UFO video
and in the video copy it said hundreds

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of witnesses. Okay, there was
no other video and there was no other

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you know, no other there was
no connection to those witnesses, So why

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you know, I mean, I
think that was a mistake of the person

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that was putting up and I want
to say it was a hoax. It

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was a CGI hoax. It was
a good one, but that was the

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mistake of the person is talking about
the hundreds of witnesses. I mean,

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that makes it. It does cut
with a lot of people because they won't

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go any deeper than that. They'll
just read it and say, wow,

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what a sighting. You know,
so you have to be careful. Yeah,

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yeah, I get UFO videos email
to me all the time, people

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asking have you seen this? Have
you seen that? Right? And I

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think the one thing that we need
to do if we're really going to take

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the subject seriously. And then some
people, admittedly they look at UFOs entertainment.

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It's just a fun thing that they
follow, and that's great, but

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for serious researchers, I think we
need to curb our hearts and allow our

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minds to move forward when we look
at things like this, because the videos

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they have a visceral reaction you get
you're like, oh wow, that's amazing.

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You have to curb your emotions and
approach it from an intellectual standpoint and

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really try to analyze it, because
if we just went with our emotions,

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where would this field be. And
I really try to inject some sobriety,

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if you will, to the subject
matter and try to maintain a well grounded

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approach. My attitude is every UFO
video is a hoax until proven otherwise guilt.

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Well, unfortunately that's the case.
And people say, with technology today

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we have all these UFO videos.
Well, that's true, but technology is

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a double edged sword. Yes,
we can capture more today, but we

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also have much greater tools in the
way of digital manipulation. And people send

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them to me and I thank them
for that, but I defer to the

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video experts, the Mark d'antonio's of
the world, people that no videographics,

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video imagery, and video doctoring.
I can look at it, but I

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don't have an expert opinion in that
area, so I defer to the experts.

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So I usually will forward those videos
on and you know, quite often

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though, I get asked, what
did you think of this latest video?

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Personally, I don't have the free
time to look at every YouTube UFO video

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and touching on what you alluded to, Martin, there are active groups dedicated

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to putting out fake UFO video.
Yeah, that's why they're there, is

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to just disseminate disinformation. And it's
so funny. People within the UFO community.

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There's a lot of conspiracy theorists,
and they blame the government for spreading

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disinformation. Your average citizens are out
there hoaxing and perpetrating hoaxes and throwing them

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out on the Internet. I've seen
more in the way of civilians disseminating false

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information than the government. Oh sure, yeah, yeah, there's a lot

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that I've I have mentioned a couple
of channels on this and there. It's

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amazing. There are some real back
ors, some people really behind those people,

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and I get some mail, I'll
tell you, and comments, you

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know, on YouTube, I always
get lots of those and I just ignore

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those. So if someone's gonna make
those nasty comments, if they're too nasty

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and I happen to see it,
I'll take it down. But I'm just

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ignoring you, okay, but I
think you get back to what we're going

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to be talking about tonight. There
are dramatic, fascinating cases that have not

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been investigated, but have the backing
of legitimate documents in the form of newspaper

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articles from the time, police records, FBI records, things of that nature

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that can back up a story.
You're not just taking one individual at their

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word. And but obviously we'll get
into that a little bit more during the

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course of the show. Yeah,
let's let's go ahead, and why don't

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we jump right in and talk about
this situation. We got about eleven minutes

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before our first break, so why
don't we go ahead and just tell the

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listening audience again. You've probably never
heard of this one, so and it's

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a good one. I'm really happy
that you're sharing this and I was able

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to get a sneak preview. It's
good. Absolutely, yeah, absolutely,

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well. I think I need to
set the stage in the sense that I

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was going through some old audio recordings
from the James McDonald archives, and for

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anyone that doesn't know doctor James McDonald, I would urge you strongly please google

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him and look at the work that
he's done prior to his death in the

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early seventies. People quite often evoke
j Allen Heineck's name, but I feel

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that James and McDonald was really underrated
as far as an investigator and a scientific

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investigator at that He was an atmospheric
physicist who taught at the University of Arizona

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in Tucson, which is where his
UFO archives reside. And going through some

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of those old recordings which have been
digitized and preserved, he had interviewed hundreds

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of UFO witnesses going back to nineteen
forty seven, and he made most of

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these during the mid to late sixties. As I mentioned to you Martin previously,

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I was driving and listening to these
old audio recordings during the course of

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my previous job where I used to
travel extensively throughout the Southwest, and I

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started listening to these recordings that we're
going to share some of these clips when

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we come back from the break with
the audience. And I'm listening to this

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case and I suddenly remember, out
of all the thousands of cases I reviewed,

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this reminded me of a case that
I read about any appro bulletin,

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and I don't know if we have
that that we could pull up that image

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that we have, but I think
we have the article. It's actually just

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given me the number and I will
I will pull out that would be number

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eight. All right, So here
is number eight, and okay, that's

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I just want to say this for
these are for the people and YouTube.

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We'll try to make this as painless
as possible if you're listening to the podcast.

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But that's why we numbered the images
so up. Anyway, So go

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ahead. Well, this is where
I first read about this case. This

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was the cover story of the APRO
bulletin back in late nineteen sixty four,

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and obviously the headline captures your attention. You know, boy burned in New

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Mexico, and I thought that was
rather interesting. But at the time when

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I first read that APPRO bulletin,
I was living in Saint Louis, so

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there wasn't much I could do,
living you know, in the Midwest,

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and this occurred way down in the
Southwest. But now living in New Mexico,

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where I reside, I decided that
given the fact that APRO investigated it,

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and I might add deemed it credible
at the time, seemingly credible,

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and then now armed with the audio
recordings from James mcdonell's archives, I decided

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to try to track down this witness. A lot of these old cases that

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people relegate to the dustbin, but
when you think about it, nineteen sixty

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four, eight year old child,
do the math, it's quite possible this

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witness was still in fact alive and
kicking. And let's just say, for

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the sake of time, after an
exhaustive effort, I was able to track

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down and establish that this witness was
still alive. Can we just get I'm

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00:16:03,120 --> 00:16:07,600
sorry, Dave, pardon me for
interrupting you, but I just want you

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to tell the story you told me, and we got plenty of time on

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how you tracked him down, and
we won't use real names, but yeah,

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just yeah, absolutely. As I
was listening to these audio recordings when

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I stumbled across these specific recordings on
this case, I was driving to a

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00:16:25,039 --> 00:16:30,080
city in the Southwest as part of
my territory that I covered at the time,

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and I got into my hotel that
night and I decided to try to

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do some exhaustive research, try to
track down and see if this person was

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still alive. After a number of
stumbling blocks late into the night, I

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finally think I established the individual and
found out where he lived. Ironically enough,

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the address that popped up was the
same city that I had traveled to

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00:16:52,919 --> 00:16:56,559
for business that day, and in
fact, the hotel I was staying at

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according to the maps that I drew
up, the address that was giving me

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for where this gentleman lived was two
miles north of my hotel, and between

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synchronic it's synchronicity, and between the
hotel and his home was the hospital that

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I was going to be doing business
with the next day. So I literally

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drove one mile down the road the
next morning to do my job. And

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once I had concluded that, I
drove another mile down the same road,

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and I was in this person's front
yard. And in this day and age,

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I don't typically do this, But
unfortunately the numbers, the phone numbers

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that I had tracked down were all
invalid. So I was left with the

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task, and I didn't have an
email address, so I was left with

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the task of literally showing up unannounced
on this gentleman's doorstep, knocking on his

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door and asking him where you burned
by UFO back in nineteen sixty four.

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So you can imagine how nervous I
was in doing that, especially if I

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had the wrong person. But long
story short, I knocked on the door.

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A gentleman answered the door, and
he kind of gave me this look

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00:18:02,880 --> 00:18:07,359
like, oh my god, yes, I'm that individual, And we wound

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00:18:07,480 --> 00:18:11,000
up scheduling about a half hour to
forty five minutes to have a conversation.

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And later I followed up with the
individual and did a more formal interview.

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And I must say that there's been
ongoing dialogue over the last several months,

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not only with the witness, but
his wife, who I might add did

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00:18:23,079 --> 00:18:27,720
not even know the details of this
case until I showed up with my wife

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to do the formal interview. And
for years she used to ask him because

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00:18:33,200 --> 00:18:37,279
he had alluded to it, and
she would ask him, in his name's

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00:18:37,359 --> 00:18:40,640
Charles, Charles, do you want
to talk about that incident in sixty four?

243
00:18:40,720 --> 00:18:44,480
And he would always respond with and
she told me this herself, Nope,

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00:18:44,519 --> 00:18:45,279
I don't want to talk about it. If there's no need to talk

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00:18:45,319 --> 00:18:49,240
about it, don't want to talk
about it. And I have to emphasize

246
00:18:49,400 --> 00:18:53,319
before we get into the details of
the case, this gentleman is as far

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00:18:53,759 --> 00:18:57,680
from a UFO believer as possible.
I wouldn't label him a skeptic. I

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wouldn't label him a believer. He's
an average gentleman who is a businessman,

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00:19:03,000 --> 00:19:07,519
who has about as normal of a
life as you could imagine. UFOs is

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00:19:07,559 --> 00:19:11,720
not part of his world, although
in nineteen sixty four it broke through into

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00:19:11,880 --> 00:19:17,039
his reality with this case that we're
gonna be talking about right right, I've

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00:19:17,119 --> 00:19:21,039
just to set the scene because of
the people in the podcast don't know this,

253
00:19:21,480 --> 00:19:22,519
but we're in your library, and
first of all, I want to

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00:19:22,519 --> 00:19:26,319
say, you have some type of
strange light coming through that's going like right

255
00:19:26,400 --> 00:19:30,799
into your forehead and into your eyes. It is the angle of the sun.

256
00:19:32,680 --> 00:19:36,440
But for the for the person that
can actually see this on YouTube,

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00:19:36,759 --> 00:19:41,880
what we're looking at and you can
look at this is the your UFO library.

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00:19:41,000 --> 00:19:45,440
Look at all those bookcases. Well
we can see right now all the

259
00:19:45,079 --> 00:19:52,400
filing cabinets, but how many And
by the way, my paintings right in

260
00:19:52,440 --> 00:19:55,960
the very background, the one I
sent to you as a mountain with the

261
00:19:56,079 --> 00:20:00,200
UFO flying over it. Anyway,
U, if you had to guess how

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00:20:00,240 --> 00:20:03,720
many documents you have housed there right
now, have you ever thought of that?

263
00:20:04,599 --> 00:20:07,440
Oh, documents. I mean,
if you use that in the general

264
00:20:07,559 --> 00:20:11,200
term as far as newsletters, reports, things like that nature, I would

265
00:20:11,240 --> 00:20:15,440
say probably tens of thousands. The
only thing I can tell you definitively is

266
00:20:15,440 --> 00:20:19,880
there's sixteen four drawer file cabinets full, and then there's also bens on top.

267
00:20:19,960 --> 00:20:25,160
Because I'm literally literally running out of
space here, and in fact,

268
00:20:25,240 --> 00:20:30,440
in two weeks I'll be acquiring a
new collection of research from Larry Hatch's family.

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00:20:30,559 --> 00:20:33,799
Larry Larry Hatch passed away about a
year and a half ago. He

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00:20:33,960 --> 00:20:37,319
wrote one of the best few FO
database programs back in the nineties, and

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00:20:37,359 --> 00:20:41,240
I corresponded with him back in ninety
three, ninety four, ninety five time

272
00:20:41,279 --> 00:20:45,240
frame, but after he passed away, I wrote a tribute article to him,

273
00:20:45,680 --> 00:20:49,200
and the family is interested in donating
his research materials here, which will

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00:20:49,279 --> 00:20:55,799
ultimately go to the University of New
Mexico, which will survive for future generations

275
00:20:56,119 --> 00:20:59,720
of researchers. That's right, And
I'm sorry for taking this Jack for the

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00:20:59,759 --> 00:21:03,319
list, and that's dying to hear
about this UFO case and what happened.

277
00:21:03,920 --> 00:21:07,640
But we only have a couple of
minutes before we're going into the first break,

278
00:21:07,920 --> 00:21:11,680
So if you would, since we're
on this jag right now, just

279
00:21:11,799 --> 00:21:15,559
finish off. The University of New
Mexico is eventually going to house and care

280
00:21:15,640 --> 00:21:19,680
for these items. And do you
still have the not the go fund me

281
00:21:19,759 --> 00:21:25,559
but whatever the page that you had
up, Is that still active? Yes,

282
00:21:25,720 --> 00:21:29,400
the go fund me site is active. It can be reached through my

283
00:21:29,680 --> 00:21:37,160
website David Marler UFO dot com,
www dot David Marler ufo dot com and

284
00:21:37,319 --> 00:21:38,920
it's on the main page. There
is a link there that talks a little

285
00:21:38,920 --> 00:21:42,440
bit about that. And in fact, you'll see the legal deed of gift

286
00:21:42,519 --> 00:21:45,680
to you and M on there as
well, and I talk about that,

287
00:21:47,119 --> 00:21:49,400
and in fact, I've even lectured
at you and M once. I approached

288
00:21:49,440 --> 00:21:52,759
them and told him about the collection
I had, and I've met with the

289
00:21:52,839 --> 00:21:56,839
Dean of Library Library Science, the
director of the Southwest Special Collections Group.

290
00:21:56,720 --> 00:22:03,279
If you have an educated discourse a
UFO subject, and you avoid conspiracy tales

291
00:22:03,440 --> 00:22:07,079
and belief systems, and you focus
solely on the facts, these people are

292
00:22:07,119 --> 00:22:11,000
interested in learning more about it.
And that's exactly how I approached it.

293
00:22:11,200 --> 00:22:17,000
And I state that whether you relegate
UFOs to fact fiction or folklore, can

294
00:22:17,079 --> 00:22:19,680
we agree it's part of our history
and as any other aspect of history,

295
00:22:19,799 --> 00:22:26,720
shouldn't we preserve that And they completely
unanimously agreed, and subsequent to that initial

296
00:22:26,799 --> 00:22:30,759
discussion and dialogue, once they learned
about my methodology and how I cite my

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00:22:30,880 --> 00:22:33,079
resources, which a lot of researchers, unfortunately in this field, don't do.

298
00:22:33,960 --> 00:22:37,519
Cite your sources. Where are you
getting this information? When I show

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00:22:37,559 --> 00:22:42,599
them it's coming through credible sources,
newspapers, government documents. They invited me

300
00:22:42,680 --> 00:22:45,759
to speak at U and M a
couple of years ago and was able to

301
00:22:45,839 --> 00:22:49,559
speak in the hallowed halls of Academia
on the UFO subject, which was truly

302
00:22:49,599 --> 00:22:56,599
an honor excellent wow. And this
site, well, I mean, this

303
00:22:57,720 --> 00:23:02,599
university is going to be taking care
of archivally, taking care of these for

304
00:23:02,960 --> 00:23:07,799
researchers for on and on and on. I think it's a wonderful thing you're

305
00:23:07,839 --> 00:23:14,799
doing, and it's it just gives
more confidence to someone that is considering,

306
00:23:15,200 --> 00:23:18,200
you know, donating some things to
you. And again I apologize to the

307
00:23:18,279 --> 00:23:22,400
listener for not going diving right into
this case. But we've got plenty of

308
00:23:22,480 --> 00:23:26,680
time for that, and we are
going to be coming right back right after

309
00:23:26,759 --> 00:23:30,440
this break. I am taking a
true break, and when I do,

310
00:23:30,920 --> 00:23:33,880
we have to test out our audio
and stuff of that for the clips that

311
00:23:33,960 --> 00:23:37,920
are going to be coming up.
So good. Yeah, we'll get into

312
00:23:37,960 --> 00:23:42,440
the story and the clips right after
this break. So hang on everyone,

313
00:23:42,519 --> 00:23:48,200
we'll be right back or right about
about three or four minutes right after these

314
00:23:48,279 --> 00:23:53,200
messages. All right, welcome back
to the show. I have to tell

315
00:23:53,240 --> 00:24:00,680
you something, and that is it
must be a conspiracy, Dave, because

316
00:24:00,720 --> 00:24:06,440
I'll tell you what technical things seemed
to happen around these shows. I can

317
00:24:06,519 --> 00:24:10,799
make a real conspiracy theory out of
this. But just before the show,

318
00:24:10,960 --> 00:24:15,400
when Dave, Dave left for work
this morning, he saw that Microsoft was

319
00:24:15,440 --> 00:24:18,599
going to do an update, and
sure enough, when he came home and

320
00:24:18,640 --> 00:24:22,960
he was getting ready to connect,
it said it was ninety updated. You

321
00:24:23,079 --> 00:24:26,519
try to stop the update, but
I guess they kind of forced him through.

322
00:24:26,319 --> 00:24:30,920
So we spent some what do we
spend like a half hour forty five

323
00:24:30,920 --> 00:24:34,319
minutes the other day, Yeah,
to make sure that we're going to be

324
00:24:34,400 --> 00:24:38,759
absolutely no problems tonight. And during
the break we had to take an extra

325
00:24:38,839 --> 00:24:45,000
long break there trying to get the
audio working and to no avail the update.

326
00:24:45,799 --> 00:24:52,359
The new update decided that it was
going to screw the audio, so

327
00:24:52,799 --> 00:24:56,240
no matter what Dave was just trying
to do, we could not get audio

328
00:24:56,400 --> 00:25:00,480
to play through. At the fifty
five minutes after the hour. We're going

329
00:25:00,559 --> 00:25:04,400
to go into another break and we
will make another attempt, but it's very

330
00:25:04,680 --> 00:25:11,680
it's crushing because of the plan that
we had to run these wonderful audio clips.

331
00:25:11,480 --> 00:25:15,039
I'm trying to send them over to
you, Martin and the hopes we

332
00:25:15,119 --> 00:25:17,440
can still salvage this. Yeah,
I mean, go ahead and try to

333
00:25:17,519 --> 00:25:18,759
send them. I don't know if
you can talk and send at the same

334
00:25:18,799 --> 00:25:22,799
time. Oh yeah, but do
that and I will forward them on to

335
00:25:23,920 --> 00:25:27,359
KGr Hey Radio and get them to
play them so we all can hear.

336
00:25:29,119 --> 00:25:30,960
Yeah. I don't want to disappoint
the audience. We're going to try to

337
00:25:32,000 --> 00:25:36,759
make this happen, all right,
So I don't know if you can multitask,

338
00:25:37,000 --> 00:25:38,720
Dave, But if you happen to
be able to do that, why

339
00:25:38,720 --> 00:25:41,640
don't we get right into the case. Everyone's just waiting to hear about it.

340
00:25:42,039 --> 00:25:47,880
Absolutely well. This occurred way back
in on June second, nineteen sixty

341
00:25:47,920 --> 00:25:52,640
four, around four o'clock in the
afternoon. And what's interesting about this is

342
00:25:52,720 --> 00:25:56,319
the fact that despite how dramatic the
case is, as we alluded to,

343
00:25:56,559 --> 00:26:00,519
there was very little in the way
of investing Asian at the time, and

344
00:26:00,960 --> 00:26:06,880
so there was really a lot of
work on my part to try to establish

345
00:26:06,960 --> 00:26:12,799
what transpired and some of those files
right now, I think, and so

346
00:26:15,000 --> 00:26:19,559
what we're looking at is kind of
a retrospective investigation. A number of the

347
00:26:19,640 --> 00:26:26,039
witnesses are deceased, including the mother
and the grandmother of the eight year old

348
00:26:26,079 --> 00:26:30,000
boy that was the victim in this
case. However, the eight year old

349
00:26:30,039 --> 00:26:33,920
boy obviously is the principal witness,
and he was in fact still alive.

350
00:26:34,519 --> 00:26:38,519
And I don't know if we can
pull up real quick an image of Charles

351
00:26:38,599 --> 00:26:41,240
what he looked like when he was
eight years old, image number six.

352
00:26:41,799 --> 00:26:47,599
You bet we'll get right there.
Just a second. Here we go go

353
00:26:47,680 --> 00:26:52,160
ahead here, and so that's Charles, and Charles was playing that day in

354
00:26:52,319 --> 00:26:56,519
the back of the laundromat, which
is grandparents owned in Hobbs, New Mexico,

355
00:26:56,559 --> 00:27:02,400
back in nineteen sixty four. He
has referenced in my interviews. It

356
00:27:02,559 --> 00:27:03,880
was kind of a home away from
home. It was one of the family

357
00:27:03,960 --> 00:27:08,160
businesses, and he was playing out
in the back lot, and he was

358
00:27:08,240 --> 00:27:14,680
approximately eight to ten feet from the
back door of the laundromat. His grandmother,

359
00:27:15,039 --> 00:27:18,119
one of the owners of the laundromat, was standing just inside the back

360
00:27:18,200 --> 00:27:22,279
doorway. The door was open,
and she was trying to keep an eye

361
00:27:22,319 --> 00:27:23,960
on him and keep an eye on
things at the front of the laundromat.

362
00:27:25,599 --> 00:27:33,599
And so as a result of that, she was her attention was diverted momentarily,

363
00:27:33,680 --> 00:27:37,599
and she hears a or a whooshing
sound in the air, and as

364
00:27:37,680 --> 00:27:42,759
a result of that, her head
turns, and whereas just minutes before she

365
00:27:42,880 --> 00:27:48,240
saw her grandson playing in the back
lot, she now saw him standing in

366
00:27:48,319 --> 00:27:52,440
the back lot with this black top
shaped object hovering one foot above his head,

367
00:27:53,240 --> 00:27:59,279
belching fire down from head to toe
and engulfing her grandson in this fire.

368
00:28:00,160 --> 00:28:03,759
This all transpired in just a matter
of several seconds, and the fire

369
00:28:04,359 --> 00:28:11,039
disappeared, the object shot off,
and the grandchild came running towards her with

370
00:28:11,160 --> 00:28:15,759
his hair on fire, temporarily blinded
as a result of being burned by this

371
00:28:15,960 --> 00:28:19,119
object. And so that's kind of
what set the stage for it. And

372
00:28:21,319 --> 00:28:26,000
even though Charles was the person that
was burned. He obviously could not observe

373
00:28:26,079 --> 00:28:30,400
it as well as the grandmother,
and so I just sent the files over

374
00:28:30,519 --> 00:28:34,079
via Skype, Martin. I don't
know if you can see those. Oh,

375
00:28:34,160 --> 00:28:37,799
okay, all right, all right, very god, Yeah, go

376
00:28:37,880 --> 00:28:40,480
ahead. I don't know if you
have those, but we might be able

377
00:28:40,519 --> 00:28:42,160
to get one queued up here in
a little bit and we'll be able to

378
00:28:42,240 --> 00:28:48,799
hear the grandmother. But what was
very telling is as the as the grandmother

379
00:28:48,920 --> 00:28:53,960
was relaying this to doctor James McDonald, she described that as soon as the

380
00:28:55,039 --> 00:29:00,400
object departed, Charles ran towards her
and his face was burned, hair was

381
00:29:00,440 --> 00:29:06,000
on fire, and she described skin
literally coming off of his face, falling

382
00:29:06,079 --> 00:29:08,839
off of his face. In the
aftermath of being burned by this UFO or

383
00:29:08,920 --> 00:29:15,200
this unusual object, there was a
nurse working or doing her laundry in the

384
00:29:15,279 --> 00:29:19,319
front of the laundry mat. The
grandmother shouted to her, they both are

385
00:29:19,359 --> 00:29:22,640
trying to put the fire out.
His hair was on fire at this point,

386
00:29:23,240 --> 00:29:30,119
and just about that time, the
grandfather pulled up in his vehicle and

387
00:29:30,319 --> 00:29:33,839
she shouted saying, Charles has been
burned. Get him to the hospital,

388
00:29:34,359 --> 00:29:38,240
at which point they quickly shuffled him
into the car and drove him to the

389
00:29:38,279 --> 00:29:44,000
other side of town to the Lead
General Hospital. And we may have an

390
00:29:44,039 --> 00:29:48,240
image of that hospital just to kind
of provide some context there. I think

391
00:29:48,279 --> 00:29:51,720
it's image number fourteen, Martin,
you bet okay, I got it.

392
00:29:52,839 --> 00:29:56,200
And so they took him to the
hospital where he was treated by a burn

393
00:29:56,279 --> 00:30:02,400
specialist in the er, the emergency
room. A doctor Badger was his name,

394
00:30:03,039 --> 00:30:08,759
and from Charles's recollection. In my
recent interview with him, he stated

395
00:30:08,799 --> 00:30:12,599
that, as he recalls, he
was a burned specialist out of Lubbock,

396
00:30:12,640 --> 00:30:18,000
Texas that would do rounds in the
emergency room there, and so he was

397
00:30:18,079 --> 00:30:22,519
treated at the hospital. He was
there for approximately a week, although he

398
00:30:22,599 --> 00:30:26,240
had to go back for subsequent follow
up visits over a period of a month

399
00:30:26,359 --> 00:30:33,440
or two. The official proclamation was
he suffered second degree burns. However,

400
00:30:33,480 --> 00:30:38,839
both Charles and his mother had relayed
to doctor McDonald that they were second and

401
00:30:38,960 --> 00:30:45,359
third degree burns. The mother described
what he looked like, as well as

402
00:30:45,359 --> 00:30:48,799
the grandmother in the aftermath and the
ensuing days and weeks after this incident,

403
00:30:49,240 --> 00:30:52,720
they said his face had swelled up
so bad you couldn't even see his nose.

404
00:30:53,400 --> 00:31:00,279
He had a black sootie material deposited
all over his face. Most his

405
00:31:00,359 --> 00:31:03,880
hair was burned off. His ears
looked like ground beef. They were,

406
00:31:04,279 --> 00:31:08,839
as Charles told me, they were
basically turned inside out, but they looked

407
00:31:08,880 --> 00:31:15,559
like raw meat. His lips were
burned severely. He was temporarily blinded,

408
00:31:15,160 --> 00:31:21,880
and as a result of this,
the only long term side effects that he

409
00:31:21,960 --> 00:31:26,160
had or long term medical consequences he
had as a result is his hearing was

410
00:31:26,279 --> 00:31:30,000
damaged in his right ear and his
eyes. He needed glasses shortly after this.

411
00:31:30,200 --> 00:31:34,720
He didn't need glasses before this,
but after the incident. I believe

412
00:31:34,720 --> 00:31:38,559
it was doctor Taylor was the optometrist
or the eye doctor that he saw.

413
00:31:40,119 --> 00:31:45,240
After he had healed up. The
doctor basically implied that he needed to have

414
00:31:45,319 --> 00:31:48,079
glasses as a result of the heat
that was exposed to his eyes. And

415
00:31:48,279 --> 00:31:52,039
so since then he's worn glasses and
he's had a hearing deficit in his right

416
00:31:52,119 --> 00:31:56,920
ear. But that being said,
the grandmother described flames burning all the way

417
00:31:57,000 --> 00:32:02,160
down from his head to his toe, Yet the only telltale sign of a

418
00:32:02,240 --> 00:32:07,680
burn was from his jaw line up, in other words, his neck,

419
00:32:07,960 --> 00:32:13,519
his shoulders, his T shirt.
He was wearing was completely intact. But

420
00:32:13,680 --> 00:32:16,559
the grandmother very emphatically stated he was
covered from head to toe and fire.

421
00:32:17,279 --> 00:32:21,640
And so we have these incongruities,
these things that we just can't explain.

422
00:32:22,240 --> 00:32:24,680
And the other thing we can't explain
is the fact that, despite the severity

423
00:32:24,799 --> 00:32:29,039
of his burns, if you were
to look at him today, you would

424
00:32:29,119 --> 00:32:34,640
never know that he had succumbed to
any type of burn. His ears are

425
00:32:34,680 --> 00:32:38,920
back to normal, there's no scarring
on the face. He's just your average

426
00:32:39,000 --> 00:32:45,000
sixty plus year old gentleman. And
you know, pardon me what I think

427
00:32:45,079 --> 00:32:47,400
of I think your camera's off a
little bit now you're looking over at an

428
00:32:47,440 --> 00:32:52,480
angle. But I think the strangest
part of this correct me if I'm wrong.

429
00:32:53,079 --> 00:32:58,720
He had no pain. No pain. That was another unusual aspect.

430
00:32:58,960 --> 00:33:02,319
Unusual. How can you be that
burned and have no pain. It doesn't

431
00:33:02,359 --> 00:33:07,440
make any sense to me. It's
just amazing. It doesn't make any sense

432
00:33:07,480 --> 00:33:14,519
at all. And in fact,
it was interesting because you know he admits

433
00:33:14,640 --> 00:33:17,920
that. In fact, you know
he will state matter of factly, it

434
00:33:19,039 --> 00:33:22,720
doesn't make any sense. I don't
know what it was, I don't know

435
00:33:22,880 --> 00:33:28,240
why it happened, but I know
it happened, and you've seen the full

436
00:33:28,319 --> 00:33:32,160
interview to get a flavor of the
sincerity. He doesn't claim to have any

437
00:33:32,240 --> 00:33:36,799
answers. The only thing he knows
is he apparently was at the wrong place,

438
00:33:36,839 --> 00:33:42,799
at the wrong time and had this
very dramatic, very negative experience.

439
00:33:43,200 --> 00:33:46,759
Another aspect of this, which is
very interesting is when he was playing in

440
00:33:46,799 --> 00:33:52,160
the back lot, his attention was
drawn to this object that appeared just for

441
00:33:52,279 --> 00:33:55,759
the audience's sake. He was in
the back lot. Immediately next to that

442
00:33:55,960 --> 00:34:01,319
was a back alley, and immediately
after that was one story apartment building which

443
00:34:01,400 --> 00:34:07,239
was probably little one bedroom apartments they
were. It wasn't very fancy by any

444
00:34:07,320 --> 00:34:13,159
means. It was probably literally a
one bedroom apartment. And he said he

445
00:34:13,280 --> 00:34:17,039
saw this black object appear over the
roof of the neighboring building there across the

446
00:34:17,119 --> 00:34:21,840
alley, and he stood up,
and he stated, when I stood up,

447
00:34:22,000 --> 00:34:24,320
I felt like it knew I was
there, and I knew it was

448
00:34:24,360 --> 00:34:29,440
there, like there was mutual recognition. And he stated that I had this

449
00:34:29,599 --> 00:34:32,119
just uneasy feeling like I just needed
to get out of its gaze. So

450
00:34:32,360 --> 00:34:37,559
he stepped to the left. The
object, in response stepped or moved to

451
00:34:37,639 --> 00:34:42,800
the left. He then moved to
the right. The object mimited his movements

452
00:34:42,840 --> 00:34:45,960
and moved to the right. He
then crouched down behind this black block of

453
00:34:46,719 --> 00:34:52,000
this block of concrete that was there
almost to hide from the thing. Then

454
00:34:52,039 --> 00:34:57,199
he stood up and moved to the
right of it. The object again mimicked

455
00:34:57,280 --> 00:35:01,159
his movement, so two or three
times we had this object mirroring his movements,

456
00:35:01,760 --> 00:35:05,960
and as soon as he moved again
to the right, the object,

457
00:35:06,039 --> 00:35:10,639
within a split second, advanced towards
him to move so fast that he stated,

458
00:35:10,840 --> 00:35:14,800
I felt like it was almost as
if a car's coming at you,

459
00:35:15,119 --> 00:35:17,280
and you know you can't move in
time. You just brace for impact.

460
00:35:17,880 --> 00:35:22,519
And he closed his eyes. He
clenched up like this in anticipation of this

461
00:35:22,679 --> 00:35:24,719
thing. He said, I thought
it was going to go through me,

462
00:35:25,480 --> 00:35:30,280
But in point of fact, it
didn't go through him. The object advanced

463
00:35:30,639 --> 00:35:34,079
moved directly over his head, at
which point it belched this column of fire

464
00:35:34,199 --> 00:35:39,639
down that consumed his body, then
disappeared, and then the object immediately departed.

465
00:35:40,760 --> 00:35:46,199
Dave, this is just really fascinating
for the YouTube person. We just

466
00:35:46,320 --> 00:35:51,840
have the image up there now of
the sketch of what he sketched out as

467
00:35:51,960 --> 00:35:53,960
the black blob. It looks like
a top. That's the best way you

468
00:35:54,000 --> 00:35:58,199
can describe it. As when you're
a kid you have these tops. They

469
00:35:58,280 --> 00:36:00,559
usually have a stick on the top
that you wrapped. The string around makes

470
00:36:00,639 --> 00:36:02,960
spin around. So this is missing
the stick, but it basically it looks

471
00:36:02,960 --> 00:36:07,760
like a black top. He described
it at the time and most recently as

472
00:36:07,880 --> 00:36:14,159
a black top. He stated that
it was approximately two to three feet wide

473
00:36:14,480 --> 00:36:17,079
and five to six feet tall,
so we're not talking a large UFO,

474
00:36:17,199 --> 00:36:21,840
and I use that term literally unidentified
flying object. We don't know what this

475
00:36:21,960 --> 00:36:24,960
unidentified flying object was, but it
was relatively small. This isn't the thirty

476
00:36:25,000 --> 00:36:30,119
foot sleek silver flying saucer that we're
used to hearing about in the older reports,

477
00:36:30,679 --> 00:36:36,719
and so it's very interesting that we
have this object. Interestingly enough,

478
00:36:36,840 --> 00:36:39,480
in going through the historical data,
I found a case that Jacques Valat talked

479
00:36:39,480 --> 00:36:44,199
about in one of his early books, A Challenge to Science, and you

480
00:36:44,320 --> 00:36:52,000
could literally overlay those two sketches the
witnesses in France and their dimensions that they

481
00:36:52,119 --> 00:36:55,360
described. Because it was European case
was listed in meters. When you convert

482
00:36:55,440 --> 00:36:59,760
the meters that they used to describe
their object, which, by the way,

483
00:36:59,800 --> 00:37:05,960
they described as a flying top.
No surprise, it matches the dimensions

484
00:37:06,000 --> 00:37:10,000
in feet that Chuck had given me. Yeah, isn't that's something? And

485
00:37:10,440 --> 00:37:15,639
was that particularly if you're saying meters, then that was European? But wasn't

486
00:37:15,639 --> 00:37:22,519
there some sightings in Georgia? Yes? Well, and that's that's what's really

487
00:37:22,559 --> 00:37:27,840
fascinating about this case. Now,
the date of the incident was June second,

488
00:37:27,960 --> 00:37:31,280
nineteen sixty four, which was a
Tuesday, And that probably means nothing

489
00:37:31,360 --> 00:37:35,719
to the audience at this point,
but there's a reason that I mentioned that.

490
00:37:36,639 --> 00:37:38,639
When we start looking at other reports, and I've got some of the

491
00:37:38,719 --> 00:37:45,079
reports right here that was on June
second. Now we have a report that

492
00:37:45,320 --> 00:37:49,599
many the audience members can look up. There was a case from Lavonia,

493
00:37:49,679 --> 00:37:54,760
Georgia, where a salesman by the
name of Buford Parham was driving home late

494
00:37:54,840 --> 00:38:01,920
one evening and he saw a black
top shaped object belching fire and it made

495
00:38:02,159 --> 00:38:07,280
three passes at his vehicle as he
was driving. He felt intense heat as

496
00:38:07,320 --> 00:38:12,159
it moved around the vehicle, and
in fact, it burned his arm.

497
00:38:12,719 --> 00:38:15,800
His arm was read from exposure to
heat as a result of this thing,

498
00:38:16,239 --> 00:38:22,000
but he described it as a flying
top black belching fire, very similar in

499
00:38:22,159 --> 00:38:28,519
nature to what Charles described. Now, Charles's case occurred about two to three

500
00:38:28,559 --> 00:38:32,880
weeks before. Now what's interesting about
that is most accounts will state that it

501
00:38:32,960 --> 00:38:37,400
occurred on Monday, June twenty ninth, But when I went to the original

502
00:38:37,480 --> 00:38:43,719
investigator notes it did occur the night
of June twenty ninth, but technically it

503
00:38:43,920 --> 00:38:46,599
was Tuesday morning. It was around
one o'clock in the morning. And again

504
00:38:46,719 --> 00:38:52,920
there's a reason I'm saying Tuesday.
After that, we had several other cases

505
00:38:52,079 --> 00:38:58,239
in Georgia within an eighty five mile
radius of each other that garnered many newspaper

506
00:38:58,840 --> 00:39:05,519
articles and newspaper accounts, where multiple
groups of people were describing a UFO that

507
00:39:05,760 --> 00:39:12,199
was a black top shaped object belching
fire. So we don't only have Charles's

508
00:39:12,280 --> 00:39:16,760
description in Hobbes way over in Georgia, in the intervening or in the subsequent

509
00:39:16,960 --> 00:39:22,159
of what six to eight weeks after
that, we have other witnesses describing the

510
00:39:22,280 --> 00:39:27,440
same thing. And I might add
many of the cases in Georgia had local

511
00:39:27,559 --> 00:39:31,599
law enforcement that showed up on the
scene who also witnessed the UFO. Wow

512
00:39:32,480 --> 00:39:37,159
we have, Dave, we do
have the clips. Q. So is

513
00:39:37,199 --> 00:39:43,199
there one in particular you'd like the
audience to hear? Yes, Why don't

514
00:39:43,199 --> 00:39:46,199
we take a look at number well, we have number five already. Let's

515
00:39:46,320 --> 00:39:51,360
look at let me see here,
just trying to see. Let's look at

516
00:39:51,480 --> 00:39:53,960
number thirteen. No, I'm talking. I'm sorry. Let me be more

517
00:39:54,039 --> 00:39:58,840
clear about that. We have thirteen
up there. Always said clips. I

518
00:39:58,960 --> 00:40:01,320
meant clips audio lips. Do would
you like to listen to an audio clip?

519
00:40:01,920 --> 00:40:05,039
Yes, that would be great.
Do you have those? We're all

520
00:40:05,079 --> 00:40:07,039
set, We're ready. Oh great, Which one would you like to hear

521
00:40:07,039 --> 00:40:12,360
it? Let's uh the grandmother.
Do you see one listed with the grandmother?

522
00:40:13,400 --> 00:40:16,880
Uh? Race, hopefully you do
and uh um again I apologize,

523
00:40:17,239 --> 00:40:24,519
Um, I don't see I see
uh missus at missus something. I can

524
00:40:24,599 --> 00:40:29,320
only see a first few letters.
Let me see here. I'll see if

525
00:40:29,320 --> 00:40:32,679
I can pull that up real quick, and my apologies. He's done it,

526
00:40:32,760 --> 00:40:36,679
he says, he's great. To
go. Okay, go ahead and

527
00:40:36,760 --> 00:40:45,360
roll the clip if you would.
Let's hear the grandmother. Uh uh standing

528
00:40:45,519 --> 00:40:52,320
on the inside. But I can
see him real good. And I looked

529
00:40:52,360 --> 00:40:58,440
down and I heard, uh,
you know how we, you know,

530
00:40:59,519 --> 00:41:04,440
fly? And then I looked out
and my rand son was standing there,

531
00:41:04,519 --> 00:41:12,840
and under this spar it looked like
the black thing with three burns, and

532
00:41:13,280 --> 00:41:21,760
it was right over his head and
was standing straight up. And I was

533
00:41:21,840 --> 00:41:25,960
so astonished that I couldn't see anything. I could see him and under this

534
00:41:27,159 --> 00:41:31,280
star, this spire had him all
covered to the ground, and I could

535
00:41:31,400 --> 00:41:36,760
see him and under this spar,
and I could see him trying to say

536
00:41:36,840 --> 00:41:45,000
something. And just a few minutes
he and this thing just like that and

537
00:41:45,199 --> 00:41:50,039
left and he ran to me,
and when he did the outside of his

538
00:41:51,039 --> 00:41:55,519
flesh was falling off of his face, and the hair was burned on his

539
00:41:55,760 --> 00:42:02,000
forehead so far up it had burnt
earned the top of his harald. And

540
00:42:04,000 --> 00:42:07,440
I grabbed him a little quick and
uh. The lady that was there with

541
00:42:07,719 --> 00:42:10,960
me said, old, put some
water on it, and I said no.

542
00:42:12,559 --> 00:42:17,119
But about that time I pulled him
away from me, he was locked

543
00:42:17,199 --> 00:42:22,960
around my waist and I said to
him, I said, uh, oh,

544
00:42:24,079 --> 00:42:29,880
the skin was falling off of his
face. And so about that time,

545
00:42:30,559 --> 00:42:37,519
his grandpa, a grandfather, my
first husband, drove up and I

546
00:42:37,679 --> 00:42:43,519
said, Charles is burn real bad. Take him to the doctor. And

547
00:42:44,119 --> 00:42:50,039
so he taking him to the hospital
to the merchants in room, and doctor

548
00:42:50,159 --> 00:42:57,000
Badger was on duty and uh there
and so he said, well, he'll

549
00:42:57,039 --> 00:43:02,440
have to go put him in the
hospital and uh he said when then he

550
00:43:02,559 --> 00:43:05,880
came on back and I went on
up, and he said, I don't

551
00:43:06,000 --> 00:43:09,840
understand this burn. He said,
uh, what kind of burn is this?

552
00:43:10,599 --> 00:43:14,480
And I said, I don't know, doctor Batter, And I begin

553
00:43:14,559 --> 00:43:17,119
to tell him what I had seen, and I think he thought, well

554
00:43:17,159 --> 00:43:22,559
I was matching anything right at that
time. And I said, doctor,

555
00:43:22,079 --> 00:43:27,039
I'm telling you the truth. I
said, this, whatever burned him,

556
00:43:27,119 --> 00:43:34,159
come from this uh right now.
IMiD uh uh air and just lit down

557
00:43:34,199 --> 00:43:38,360
over his head. And I still
think it, thought I was had lost

558
00:43:38,440 --> 00:43:45,679
my mind and uh so uh then
his face began to swelling, and uh

559
00:43:45,480 --> 00:43:49,880
of course they didn't know what the
outcome was gonna be. That night,

560
00:43:50,360 --> 00:43:54,239
his eyes were swell. Who he
his little face was, oh, just

561
00:43:54,440 --> 00:44:00,079
swell, real big, and he
just uh, I wanted to scat it

562
00:44:00,280 --> 00:44:07,000
continually. We I had to sit
by his bedside twenty four hours around the

563
00:44:07,079 --> 00:44:12,280
clock to keep him from scracking him. Just turn the skin off. He

564
00:44:12,440 --> 00:44:15,239
did so bad. And they didn't
under eat. The doctor didn't understand that

565
00:44:15,440 --> 00:44:21,519
either, but then uh, he
got before he could come home, and

566
00:44:21,920 --> 00:44:27,280
uh, it did it didn't leave
a scar, and I stayed by the

567
00:44:27,639 --> 00:44:32,840
Chyle said, uh, it's nearly
around the park myself until he got the

568
00:44:32,960 --> 00:44:38,320
uh or he could stayed by himself
without scracking, and then of course we'd

569
00:44:38,400 --> 00:44:43,840
leave him couple hours today. But
then she had put vices on him the

570
00:44:44,360 --> 00:44:47,760
last year because of this. The
doctor there said it was because of this

571
00:44:47,960 --> 00:44:52,039
burn. And I understand that his
hearing is defect. Yes, uh huh,

572
00:44:52,440 --> 00:44:59,079
yes, is that the clip day, Yeah, that's it. That's

573
00:44:59,119 --> 00:45:02,280
the grandmother. Yeah, and that
we just heard McDonald there for just one

574
00:45:02,320 --> 00:45:06,519
second, right, yeah, correct
at the very end there. Yes,

575
00:45:07,360 --> 00:45:12,159
yeah, wow, very interesting the
different things she said. But you know,

576
00:45:12,360 --> 00:45:15,519
one of the things that is puzzling
to me, and you know,

577
00:45:15,599 --> 00:45:17,000
I know this is kind of a
gruesome topic for a lot of people.

578
00:45:17,039 --> 00:45:21,719
I think it is, but you
know, she's talking about parts of his

579
00:45:21,960 --> 00:45:25,079
face falling off. The guy has
no scars. Yeah, don't you think

580
00:45:25,119 --> 00:45:30,559
that is really really another strange aspect
to this. It's it's very strange and

581
00:45:30,840 --> 00:45:34,840
in fact, when you look through
and we don't have time to obviously go

582
00:45:34,880 --> 00:45:38,440
into all of them. But when
we go through the newspaper accounts, the

583
00:45:38,840 --> 00:45:43,199
police were at odds to try to
figure out what was going on, and

584
00:45:43,519 --> 00:45:47,719
rightly so, they approached this from
a very practical standpoint. One of the

585
00:45:49,000 --> 00:45:54,480
initial possibilities they thought might have happened
was because this was June second, maybe

586
00:45:54,599 --> 00:45:58,840
someone, since it's only a month
from July fourth, maybe someone had a

587
00:45:58,960 --> 00:46:02,639
Roman candle a block or two over
and they fired a Roman candle off and

588
00:46:02,960 --> 00:46:07,280
the ball of fire, this fire
he saw was actually a ball of fire

589
00:46:07,719 --> 00:46:10,119
from a Roman candle that hit him
in the face. They were never able

590
00:46:10,159 --> 00:46:15,079
to substantiate that. In fact,
later newspaper accounts say that there there was

591
00:46:15,119 --> 00:46:17,199
no merit to that. It was
just one possibility that they were exploring.

592
00:46:17,760 --> 00:46:22,239
Another one was that because it was
a laundromat and you have boilers, maybe

593
00:46:22,360 --> 00:46:27,559
some steam jetted out and burned him
on the face. Or another one had

594
00:46:27,599 --> 00:46:30,679
postulated another officer that maybe a ball
of lent had flown out of one of

595
00:46:30,679 --> 00:46:35,159
the vents that ignited and hit him
in the face. But when they went

596
00:46:35,280 --> 00:46:37,960
on site, they could find no
tail tale signs, and in fact,

597
00:46:38,079 --> 00:46:43,440
they couldn't even find areas of burning
on the ground. Now, for those

598
00:46:43,519 --> 00:46:47,599
that are familiar with the Southwest,
there's a soil highly packed, dense clay

599
00:46:47,679 --> 00:46:54,719
like soil called calichi, and Charles
had told me recently that that's basically what

600
00:46:54,920 --> 00:46:58,719
was back there. There was no
vegetation, was just very hard. It's

601
00:46:58,719 --> 00:47:02,280
almost like a natural conc if you
will, right, He said, that's

602
00:47:02,280 --> 00:47:05,480
all that was back there, and
they tried to see if there was any

603
00:47:05,559 --> 00:47:08,320
burn marks, but there was really
nothing to burn because of the this Callichi

604
00:47:08,599 --> 00:47:12,960
that was back there. It makes
good Adobe's too, I believe, or

605
00:47:13,039 --> 00:47:16,639
that that whole composition. But we're
ready to go into break now. I

606
00:47:16,800 --> 00:47:21,960
do think, you know, there's
so many strange aspects to this. We

607
00:47:22,079 --> 00:47:25,159
got a lot to cover, and
we are going to during this break,

608
00:47:25,239 --> 00:47:30,800
we are going to make another attempt
at trying to make things happen, and

609
00:47:30,079 --> 00:47:34,559
that will be the video clip.
Hopefully we'll be able to do that,

610
00:47:35,079 --> 00:47:37,840
so hanging. Everyone will be right
back right after these messages. Hey,

611
00:47:37,880 --> 00:47:40,960
everybody, welcome back to the show. We took a break there and we

612
00:47:42,079 --> 00:47:46,559
tried our darndest to get the video
clip, which also has a really good

613
00:47:46,599 --> 00:47:52,199
audio. So this is what I'm
going to attempt to do. I'm currently

614
00:47:52,599 --> 00:47:59,079
in the middle of downloading this to
my laptop and what I'm going to do,

615
00:47:59,360 --> 00:48:02,159
or to say again, what I'm
going to attempt to try to do

616
00:48:04,280 --> 00:48:07,320
is capture the window, get it
through the software so the people on YouTube

617
00:48:07,639 --> 00:48:13,639
can get a bonus at the end
of the show and the podcast listener can

618
00:48:13,800 --> 00:48:19,639
hear the audio of it, of
the interview with the witness. This is

619
00:48:19,719 --> 00:48:22,320
a when do you do how long
ago do you do that particular interview?

620
00:48:22,480 --> 00:48:27,360
David? That was last fall,
so last fall, so this happened last

621
00:48:27,400 --> 00:48:30,880
fall. The interview, it's really
good. So that is going to hopefully

622
00:48:31,199 --> 00:48:38,800
be a bonus to YouTube. It's
always tricky setting up the audio on a

623
00:48:38,880 --> 00:48:42,920
situation like that. I will do
my best. Be patient with me as

624
00:48:42,920 --> 00:48:45,679
soon as we end the show tonight
and hang in there if you want a

625
00:48:45,719 --> 00:48:49,960
bonus, what is it about twenty
some one minutes something like that. Yeah,

626
00:48:49,960 --> 00:48:52,280
about eleven minutes, Actually eleven minutes, Okay, you'll have eleven minutes

627
00:48:52,320 --> 00:48:55,719
after the end of the show.
Sorry, over at KGr A Radio,

628
00:48:57,599 --> 00:49:00,559
we can't do that over there,
but hopefully the listener will get to hear

629
00:49:00,639 --> 00:49:07,119
that. So let's let's continue on. We have actually we have an audio

630
00:49:07,159 --> 00:49:10,079
clip we were talking about playing.
Can you go into the detail of that

631
00:49:10,159 --> 00:49:16,440
one in particular. Yes, absolutely
so. Obviously I've recently interviewed the witness.

632
00:49:16,599 --> 00:49:22,119
But again, James McDonald, to
his credit, started looking into this

633
00:49:22,239 --> 00:49:25,679
case four years after it had occurred. So the recording we heard earlier with

634
00:49:25,760 --> 00:49:31,119
the grandmother was conducted in nineteen sixty
eight, and right around that same time

635
00:49:31,199 --> 00:49:35,480
frame, give or take a day, he had reached out to the mother

636
00:49:36,000 --> 00:49:39,679
of Charles, and while speaking with
Charles's mother, he said, buy any

637
00:49:39,760 --> 00:49:43,480
chance with Charles happened to be there, and she's like, yes, he's

638
00:49:43,559 --> 00:49:46,320
right here. So the next clip
we're going to hear is Charles, the

639
00:49:46,400 --> 00:49:52,559
burn victim, four years after the
incident, relaying details to doctor James McDonald.

640
00:49:52,079 --> 00:49:58,079
All right, roll it, hello, Charles. I wonder if you

641
00:49:58,199 --> 00:50:02,519
could try to describe me, uh, the science and shape of the object

642
00:50:02,599 --> 00:50:07,440
that came down over you. Why
don't you know I could spinning cough like

643
00:50:07,760 --> 00:50:13,880
it was spinning time. I like
that. Ah, it was about not

644
00:50:14,079 --> 00:50:17,239
hap to call a god was but
it was not spinning a shape like a

645
00:50:17,280 --> 00:50:22,280
top, not spinning as part as
you when you were eight years old?

646
00:50:22,320 --> 00:50:24,920
Then weren't you? And he covered
my whole body that they don't invove my

647
00:50:25,039 --> 00:50:29,360
faith, I mean give me it
completely covered over you like a sack.

648
00:50:29,599 --> 00:50:34,199
Yeah, and you don't about my
faith. Didn't come down wherever you.

649
00:50:35,079 --> 00:50:37,679
Well, let me try to describe
it like a bucket or a can in

650
00:50:37,760 --> 00:50:43,280
that sense. Now we get it. I could go to well, let's

651
00:50:43,320 --> 00:50:47,519
see maybe I'm still right clear on
that was it? Was it entirely above

652
00:50:47,559 --> 00:50:52,239
you, like somebody holding something above
or did it sit around you? Now

653
00:50:52,360 --> 00:50:55,719
we didn't come back, don't go
through. I didn't come down the alley.

654
00:50:55,760 --> 00:51:00,199
Why did you first sit? It
was coming over a building and then

655
00:51:00,280 --> 00:51:04,599
it door done come down that.
But getting over the top on it just

656
00:51:04,760 --> 00:51:08,079
kind of went down at and luck
was don't gonna feel my body, but

657
00:51:08,239 --> 00:51:12,719
it didn't ever touch you. Yeah, I ain't covered my body hold on

658
00:51:13,199 --> 00:51:15,719
and it brought my face to my
whole body. My grandma said, my

659
00:51:15,760 --> 00:51:20,840
whole body was just sudden, but
it just black. Oh he see it

660
00:51:20,960 --> 00:51:24,239
was the black. Well, did
you ever feel the object to this point?

661
00:51:24,239 --> 00:51:28,320
It was fun in my face.
It was very hot thing. No,

662
00:51:28,519 --> 00:51:32,119
it was kind of like food calling
on your face. Did you see

663
00:51:32,119 --> 00:51:37,559
anything like no, I shut my
eyes. Did you try to run a

664
00:51:37,679 --> 00:51:40,760
moment um? Well, whenever it
was coming camp and blocks up there,

665
00:51:40,920 --> 00:51:44,880
well my grandpa didn't. I'm gonna
come my limp and it was getting come

666
00:51:44,960 --> 00:51:46,599
over, just the noise of the
building. Whenever I moved my list,

667
00:51:46,639 --> 00:51:51,360
it was get there. I mean
it moves it where right and whenever I

668
00:51:51,480 --> 00:51:54,480
moved back for I was it did. That's where I was. How long

669
00:51:54,519 --> 00:51:58,920
do you think it was right at
around you? I'm not to hear.

670
00:51:59,360 --> 00:52:02,360
I don't know, five seconds or
ten seconds. I don't worry now,

671
00:52:02,440 --> 00:52:07,599
I mean I get so stating and
come shocked. There was only a short

672
00:52:07,800 --> 00:52:10,559
term and then whet to go after
it left cute, you know, but

673
00:52:12,159 --> 00:52:15,239
sable. Then it went back behind
the building, and it was really as

674
00:52:15,440 --> 00:52:20,519
like it was going off. And
then it gets and it went to I

675
00:52:20,719 --> 00:52:23,039
was standing one way and it went
to the side of the back behind so

676
00:52:23,199 --> 00:52:28,199
I was standing beside me. She
could have went back behind the Then it

677
00:52:28,320 --> 00:52:31,440
faized and it went back behind the
laundry and it never came back out again.

678
00:52:32,440 --> 00:52:37,000
If you were round to any other
boys in the Hobbes area who saw

679
00:52:37,000 --> 00:52:43,519
anything like then, no one,
nobody else saw. My grandma did that.

680
00:52:43,599 --> 00:52:45,920
She was going on and she was
standing in the building and I was

681
00:52:45,960 --> 00:52:52,760
standing get turning the side, go
on, Well that's your deal. Astonishing.

682
00:52:52,239 --> 00:52:55,159
I wish I could, you know, give some explanation for it was.

683
00:52:55,800 --> 00:53:00,840
Yeah, but it's us like something
that ought to be checked into much.

684
00:53:05,360 --> 00:53:15,800
Well, I don't know how.
Well, very good, thanks mother

685
00:53:15,679 --> 00:53:23,119
fire. Here we go. Oh
that's really amazing, really amazing. Yeah,

686
00:53:23,239 --> 00:53:30,119
and I should mention the fact that
this was a very devout conservative Pentecostal

687
00:53:30,239 --> 00:53:37,320
family. They were business owners.
Again, the skeptics and people will laugh

688
00:53:37,400 --> 00:53:39,559
at the case and probably try to
derail it and say, well, these

689
00:53:39,599 --> 00:53:44,519
people were a bunch of UFO believers. It was quite the opposite. And

690
00:53:44,880 --> 00:53:49,880
at the time they never sought publicity. And so when people try to look

691
00:53:49,920 --> 00:53:52,519
at an alternate explanation, well,
what is the alternate explanation. Did he

692
00:53:52,760 --> 00:53:58,119
accidentally injure himself and they concocted this
UFO story. It just doesn't seem to

693
00:53:58,159 --> 00:54:00,199
be something that they would do.
It's not within their frame of mind to

694
00:54:00,280 --> 00:54:06,039
do something like that. And the
other suggestions, well did they intentionally burn

695
00:54:06,159 --> 00:54:10,119
him and for what reason? I
mean it's very strange. It does not

696
00:54:10,280 --> 00:54:14,880
fit the makeup of these individuals based
on what I've learned about them. And

697
00:54:15,079 --> 00:54:17,199
again, there was no profit to
be gained. There was no money to

698
00:54:17,280 --> 00:54:22,719
be had. In fact, Charles, in my recent interview with him,

699
00:54:22,159 --> 00:54:25,800
he stated that you know, a
lot of people probably thought we were trying

700
00:54:25,800 --> 00:54:28,800
to make money. I said,
well, quite the contrary, I said,

701
00:54:28,800 --> 00:54:30,880
you incurred a week's worth of hospital
bills, not to mention follow up

702
00:54:30,960 --> 00:54:36,239
medical bills. I said, quite
the contrary. You guys incurred quite a

703
00:54:36,280 --> 00:54:40,119
bit of cost as a result of
this. And so it was very interesting

704
00:54:40,400 --> 00:54:45,559
and all of these years, in
the fifty six years since this happened.

705
00:54:46,239 --> 00:54:52,159
In interviewing him recently, he told
me he confided in me that he thought

706
00:54:52,840 --> 00:54:57,360
whatever this was in nineteen sixty four, that it must have been something military

707
00:54:58,320 --> 00:55:01,360
that went off range from either White
Sand's Missile Range in New Mexico or Holloman

708
00:55:01,360 --> 00:55:07,760
Air Force Base. They weren't thinking
of UFO in the sense alien spacecraft.

709
00:55:07,880 --> 00:55:12,159
So again, these aren't space cadets
fashioning or constructing a story like this.

710
00:55:12,920 --> 00:55:16,840
And it wasn't until I met with
him and he started thinking about this after

711
00:55:16,960 --> 00:55:22,039
fifty six years that many thoughts and
ideas started to come to the surface that

712
00:55:22,119 --> 00:55:28,280
he hadn't thought about in decades,
literally decades. And in fact, I'll

713
00:55:28,320 --> 00:55:35,079
be sharing additional video interviews that touch
on that at the upcoming conference in Eureka

714
00:55:35,119 --> 00:55:39,000
Springs, Arkansas, where I'll be
presenting this material. Did he did he

715
00:55:39,079 --> 00:55:43,840
ever become like really emotional when he
I mean, this is like, you

716
00:55:43,920 --> 00:55:45,840
know, picking at an old scar. I hate to say that terms kind

717
00:55:45,880 --> 00:55:50,079
of but it kind of fits this
one, right, did it? Did

718
00:55:50,159 --> 00:55:52,079
he ever get like who was too
much for him? Or was he?

719
00:55:52,559 --> 00:55:55,519
Was he able to talk about it? Well? He was able to talk

720
00:55:55,519 --> 00:56:00,039
about it well. But I'm really
glad you bring that up, because I

721
00:56:00,199 --> 00:56:02,559
was always in the forefront of my
mind as I was interviewing him. In

722
00:56:02,679 --> 00:56:06,559
fact, when I first, as
I mentioned earlier, knocked on his door

723
00:56:06,719 --> 00:56:12,039
completely unannounced and wanted to dredge up
this incident from what was then fifty five

724
00:56:12,159 --> 00:56:15,440
years ago, and so I was
trying to be as delicate as possible yet

725
00:56:15,559 --> 00:56:22,320
try to be to the point.
But no, and in fact, in

726
00:56:22,480 --> 00:56:25,360
some of the comments that I have
in another clip, which as I mentioned,

727
00:56:25,400 --> 00:56:30,360
I'll be sharing at the conference,
he states that he's okay with it

728
00:56:30,480 --> 00:56:34,599
now that you know. Initially it
was something strange. He couldn't wrap his

729
00:56:34,679 --> 00:56:37,559
mind around it. But pretty much
myself, my family, we all just

730
00:56:37,719 --> 00:56:39,440
kind of, as he said,
put it in the closet, tried to

731
00:56:39,480 --> 00:56:45,840
forget about it and just move on
with our lives. And again harboring under

732
00:56:45,920 --> 00:56:50,480
the notion that this must have been
something military, and I will concede.

733
00:56:50,599 --> 00:56:53,639
And I think probably many of your
audience members are sitting there thinking as they're

734
00:56:53,679 --> 00:56:58,320
listening to this, this doesn't sound
like something high tech. It sounds like

735
00:56:58,360 --> 00:57:02,119
a bad lawnmower. It's belching fire, it's belching back smoke. It doesn't

736
00:57:02,199 --> 00:57:07,000
fit the model of what we would
think would be advanced technology. But at

737
00:57:07,039 --> 00:57:14,039
the same time, in talking with
Charles last fall, he indicated that,

738
00:57:14,599 --> 00:57:16,639
but knowing what we have with drones
today, he goes, I would think

739
00:57:16,639 --> 00:57:21,039
it would be something like a drone. But he said, but knowing what

740
00:57:21,199 --> 00:57:24,719
our drones do today, to look
back to nineteen sixty four, and he

741
00:57:24,840 --> 00:57:29,679
went back to how this thing mimicked
his movements, how it would quickly move

742
00:57:29,800 --> 00:57:34,039
like this, he said, Now
thinking about it, he goes, I'm

743
00:57:34,119 --> 00:57:38,159
beginning to question the military explanation because
I can't believe we would have something like

744
00:57:38,400 --> 00:57:42,440
that. And then he posed the
question to me. He goes, and

745
00:57:42,559 --> 00:57:45,360
even if we did have that,
why would they seek out and burn an

746
00:57:45,360 --> 00:57:47,880
eight year old child? And I
countered that with Well, one could use

747
00:57:47,960 --> 00:57:52,039
the same argument, Charles, why
would extraterrestrials fly vass distances just to burn

748
00:57:52,079 --> 00:57:54,159
an eight year old child? He
goes, well, that's true, He

749
00:57:54,280 --> 00:57:58,400
goes, I agree with you on
that one. He goes, It doesn't

750
00:57:58,400 --> 00:58:00,400
He goes, No matter how you
look at it, it doesn't make any

751
00:58:00,440 --> 00:58:05,320
sense, Dad, But it happened. Yeah, when you were looking into

752
00:58:05,400 --> 00:58:08,000
this head. You know a lot
of times something like this will go into

753
00:58:08,360 --> 00:58:14,679
unexplained mysteries. Or has anyone ever
done a story about this case over the

754
00:58:14,800 --> 00:58:17,920
years that you're aware of, Well, there's been slight references to it.

755
00:58:19,639 --> 00:58:23,199
John Schusler a good friend and colleague
John Schusler, former international director of move

756
00:58:23,360 --> 00:58:30,880
On. John wrote a physiological case
report where he documented, in very small

757
00:58:30,960 --> 00:58:37,159
paragraphs, just a quick synopsis of
the UFO incidents over the last several decades

758
00:58:37,239 --> 00:58:45,360
involving burn victims or radiation cases or
electromagnetic effects on the body, and he

759
00:58:45,559 --> 00:58:51,440
does have a quick little blurb about
it and references the Opera bulletin and subsequent

760
00:58:51,480 --> 00:58:54,880
to the Opera bullet and the article
was published in Fate magazine and apparently an

761
00:58:54,920 --> 00:59:00,599
issue of the National Inquirer as late
as nineteen seventy six years after the incident,

762
00:59:01,039 --> 00:59:06,039
So there have been references to it, but nobody's taken the time to

763
00:59:06,079 --> 00:59:07,760
say, well, let's go back
and investigate this case, or let's go

764
00:59:07,880 --> 00:59:13,920
talk to this witness. And what's
interesting is also touching on what we started

765
00:59:14,000 --> 00:59:19,599
talking about the beginning of the show
looking at these old cases. Charles told

766
00:59:19,639 --> 00:59:23,679
me point blank, if you came
knocking on my door fifteen twenty years ago,

767
00:59:24,280 --> 00:59:28,760
I probably wouldn't talk to you about
this. And I looked down and

768
00:59:29,000 --> 00:59:30,119
my wife was there with me.
We both looked at him, and I

769
00:59:30,159 --> 00:59:34,679
said, well, why are you
willing to talk about it now? And

770
00:59:34,920 --> 00:59:37,760
he said, one, because I
know I've gotten to know you, and

771
00:59:37,880 --> 00:59:40,840
I know you're doing this for the
right reasons. You're trying to present the

772
00:59:40,960 --> 00:59:45,599
truth and trying to find answers to
this mystery. And he said, but

773
00:59:45,800 --> 00:59:49,880
second of all, he goes,
you know I'm in my early mid sixties.

774
00:59:50,280 --> 00:59:52,719
He said, I'm to the point
now in life where I don't care

775
00:59:52,800 --> 00:59:57,239
who sees this. I don't care
who hears about it. There's a lot

776
00:59:57,320 --> 01:00:00,639
of skeptics out there. But if
people want to believe it, that's fine.

777
01:00:00,679 --> 01:00:02,320
If people don't don't want to believe
it, that's fine too. He

778
01:00:02,400 --> 01:00:05,599
goes, I'm just to the point
in my life where I don't care anymore.

779
01:00:06,599 --> 01:00:09,880
I can totally relate to that.
Yeah, yeah, and so yeah.

780
01:00:10,280 --> 01:00:15,000
So I think it's important sometimes to
revisit these cases. Even if these

781
01:00:15,039 --> 01:00:20,000
witnesses were hesitant to come forward in
the wake of these encounters, with the

782
01:00:20,079 --> 01:00:24,079
passage of time, with as I
think you alluded to, being able to

783
01:00:24,239 --> 01:00:30,840
deal with the situation both mentally psychologically. Uh, sometimes they're in a better

784
01:00:30,920 --> 01:00:35,039
place to start relaying this information,
right, right, Why don't we queue

785
01:00:35,119 --> 01:00:37,320
up that last clip? It's the
mother? Right, is the inter of

786
01:00:37,360 --> 01:00:39,800
you with the mother? So if
you would, I don't think I have

787
01:00:39,840 --> 01:00:45,960
any images of her, But let's
roll the case of the mother. Okay,

788
01:00:45,840 --> 01:00:51,760
the clip, Yeah, he was
blood Zina. I would have said

789
01:00:51,840 --> 01:00:59,440
that small because it d him on
the fight and on its fight and stop

790
01:00:59,480 --> 01:01:04,320
of head. It didn't burn his
hand on kit shirt, and burnt.

791
01:01:04,639 --> 01:01:07,960
Uh didn't even go on his neck. Why would it work when this happened

792
01:01:08,639 --> 01:01:13,880
if its effective his eyes and hearing. Now, they took the scrapings of

793
01:01:14,000 --> 01:01:16,719
his face and everything, and they
sent it to the FBI. They told

794
01:01:16,760 --> 01:01:22,119
me they apparently they never told me
anything about it. Well, we reported

795
01:01:22,119 --> 01:01:24,599
it to the police station. Police
came out to the laundry and examine the

796
01:01:24,639 --> 01:01:29,119
grounds where it happened, and there
was no uh, there was nothing on

797
01:01:29,239 --> 01:01:31,000
the ground. Uh. Well,
you know, he had second and thirty

798
01:01:31,079 --> 01:01:37,760
great rounds he was from. His
face was horrible. Uh, his eyes

799
01:01:37,840 --> 01:01:40,719
were when he was fallen in his
eyes, you couldn't even see his eyes.

800
01:01:40,760 --> 01:01:45,039
He was actually he looked like a
monster that they would put on DV.

801
01:01:45,039 --> 01:01:49,800
It was horrible. He couldn't even
see out of his eyes. He

802
01:01:49,880 --> 01:01:53,199
couldn't see at all. The mother
said he grabbed him like he was on

803
01:01:53,400 --> 01:01:58,400
fire, and she grabbed him to
put out the fire and pressed him to

804
01:01:58,519 --> 01:02:04,079
her. H you know, he's
come across up ter her cat. She

805
01:02:04,159 --> 01:02:07,679
said. There was a black thing
that covered his whole body and he ran

806
01:02:07,760 --> 01:02:12,599
to her and she grabbed me try
to smother it. So apparently he looked

807
01:02:12,639 --> 01:02:15,480
like he was on fire. He
Uh, as long as this happened,

808
01:02:15,480 --> 01:02:19,400
and he was quite young when it
happened, he's never changed his story.

809
01:02:20,239 --> 01:02:22,960
And of course I had thought uh
uh, since this has happened in the

810
01:02:23,079 --> 01:02:28,960
last two years. Uh. His
eyes. I had him dested not too

811
01:02:29,039 --> 01:02:32,559
long ago, and they seemed to
be getting worse, uh from what doctor

812
01:02:32,599 --> 01:02:37,320
Taylor had told me, And he
told me that the nature of the cause

813
01:02:37,480 --> 01:02:43,199
of his having to wear glasses was
to be peace from the fire. He

814
01:02:43,360 --> 01:02:47,559
said that that the heat you know, from the from caused identity on his

815
01:02:47,719 --> 01:02:53,199
left ear. He has one uh
scard that uh you can see. But

816
01:02:53,360 --> 01:02:58,159
for the burns that had just seen
him it was it would have been unbelievable.

817
01:02:59,280 --> 01:03:01,760
They had a active and they had
the police so all down there,

818
01:03:02,280 --> 01:03:07,440
and from my understanding, uh,
they had taken taken scrapings and they were

819
01:03:07,480 --> 01:03:12,400
going to send his t shirt to
the FBI. And I never did hear

820
01:03:12,480 --> 01:03:15,760
one was from any of them shouted. They took it at the hospital when

821
01:03:15,800 --> 01:03:21,639
he was admitted to send to the
FBI. They took his shirt there at

822
01:03:21,679 --> 01:03:25,559
the time to send then. And
uh, of course I figured that the

823
01:03:25,639 --> 01:03:30,000
doctor or somebody would talk and then
down me at once, you know,

824
01:03:30,119 --> 01:03:35,400
he thought the fire or whatever cost
it. I didn't get another word or

825
01:03:35,480 --> 01:03:37,480
did I hear anything else about it, So I don't know, but I

826
01:03:37,599 --> 01:03:40,880
do know. They send a detective
and the police and they could find nothing.

827
01:03:42,000 --> 01:03:46,519
You know, fact Graham wasn't even
scarched. It's unexplainable. That's all

828
01:03:46,559 --> 01:03:51,320
I can tell you. I've also
thought about it and wondered what it was

829
01:03:51,480 --> 01:03:57,559
myself. That's your yeah, yeah, and it was interesting. Uh.

830
01:03:58,519 --> 01:04:02,199
Piggyback with that, as in talking
with Charles, one of the epiphanies,

831
01:04:02,239 --> 01:04:05,119
if you will, that came to
him. Not having thought about this in

832
01:04:05,239 --> 01:04:10,679
decades, he says, Now as
a parent, he goes, I never

833
01:04:10,800 --> 01:04:13,800
really stopped to think about the effect
that this head of my mother. He

834
01:04:13,920 --> 01:04:17,480
goes, thinking of her at work, getting a call from my grandmother and

835
01:04:17,840 --> 01:04:25,320
hearing this seemingly outrageous story that this
thing came out of the air and severely

836
01:04:25,400 --> 01:04:28,039
burned his face in his head.
He goes, as a parent, now,

837
01:04:28,679 --> 01:04:30,360
I had never thought about this.
And he looked at the camera as

838
01:04:30,480 --> 01:04:33,000
I'm talking to him, he said, I'm only now starting to think of

839
01:04:33,079 --> 01:04:36,000
these things because you're dredging a lot
of stuff up in my mind. He

840
01:04:36,159 --> 01:04:40,639
said, I've never really stopped to
think of the emotional impact that I had

841
01:04:40,679 --> 01:04:44,760
on my mother to receive that call. And he said, you have daughters.

842
01:04:44,840 --> 01:04:47,079
He goes, imagine if your wife
called and said one of your daughters

843
01:04:47,199 --> 01:04:50,599
was burned severely, you know from
the head up, you know you would

844
01:04:50,639 --> 01:04:55,800
want answers, would you would want
an explanation? And so there were many

845
01:04:55,880 --> 01:04:59,519
things like this that he had never
thought about until we really started having to

846
01:04:59,599 --> 01:05:02,519
style in this discussion. Martin,
I don't know. Did we bring up

847
01:05:02,559 --> 01:05:05,239
image number ten? I just wanted
to share that that was my wife and

848
01:05:05,320 --> 01:05:09,880
I with Charles. How we'll bring
that up right now? I just right

849
01:05:09,920 --> 01:05:14,519
now, I have a image of
basically of Charles today. But we'll pull

850
01:05:14,599 --> 01:05:19,159
that up right Yeah, and here
it goes right here. The picture of

851
01:05:19,320 --> 01:05:24,679
your you, your lovely wife and
Charles together is up on YouTube. Yes,

852
01:05:24,960 --> 01:05:27,719
yeah, yeah. We spend an
entire weekend together with him and his

853
01:05:27,880 --> 01:05:30,920
wife and got a chance to really
get to know them and their business that

854
01:05:31,000 --> 01:05:34,440
they run in the city that they
live in in the Southwest, and really

855
01:05:34,519 --> 01:05:38,519
had a chance to get to know
them a little bit as individuals. We

856
01:05:38,599 --> 01:05:43,599
talked about a lot of stuff beyond
the case, and we've alloked a pretty

857
01:05:43,599 --> 01:05:47,400
good friendship as a result. And
if you can describe, it's a little

858
01:05:47,480 --> 01:05:51,800
tiny room. For some reason,
your camera focus this stuff. A little

859
01:05:51,880 --> 01:05:56,360
tiny room you're into and you've stuffed
back in there, and and he has

860
01:05:56,400 --> 01:05:59,880
a business he's running, and employees
are wondering what the heck's going on.

861
01:06:00,880 --> 01:06:03,880
It was the running joke that weekend. We were bringing in lots of equipment.

862
01:06:04,000 --> 01:06:08,880
And he has a little I would
say was probably six foot wide office

863
01:06:09,360 --> 01:06:14,840
by about maybe ten foot long or
eleven feet long. And so Charles is

864
01:06:14,880 --> 01:06:18,039
in there at his desk. I'm
there behind the camera set up on a

865
01:06:18,119 --> 01:06:21,000
tripod, and my wife has wedged
in the back corner of the room near

866
01:06:21,079 --> 01:06:27,199
the door, and we're conducting this
interview. And then both before and after

867
01:06:27,320 --> 01:06:30,679
the interview, we're out in a
little private area there where some of the

868
01:06:30,760 --> 01:06:34,960
workers could see us. And a
couple of times the employees had to come

869
01:06:35,000 --> 01:06:38,760
over and ask him a question and
he said, yeah, he goes,

870
01:06:39,119 --> 01:06:41,920
everyone's trying to figure out who you
guys are and what you're doing here,

871
01:06:42,000 --> 01:06:44,719
he goes. I just told him
we're thinking about selling the business and your

872
01:06:44,760 --> 01:06:53,519
investors, so even his employees don't
know about this incident, and like I

873
01:06:53,599 --> 01:06:56,920
said, his wife didn't even know
all the details until that weekend. Wow,

874
01:06:57,400 --> 01:07:00,639
when you spoke with him, did
he ever talk about like putting this

875
01:07:00,800 --> 01:07:04,320
thing away and out of his life
like for you know, I mean,

876
01:07:04,599 --> 01:07:09,400
did he have an attention to that
just be out of his life and not

877
01:07:09,559 --> 01:07:12,960
ever talk about it again? Pretty
much? I mean pretty much until like

878
01:07:13,000 --> 01:07:15,800
I said, I knocked on his
door. He said. There were some

879
01:07:15,880 --> 01:07:18,159
subsequent articles that were written, and
in fact, I think we might have

880
01:07:18,360 --> 01:07:20,880
one of those. I think it
was image number seven. If we've we've

881
01:07:20,920 --> 01:07:26,000
pulled that up yet, the black
Blob article, yep, okay, and

882
01:07:26,159 --> 01:07:29,440
that was done a few years yeah, yeah, so, oh yes,

883
01:07:29,519 --> 01:07:32,679
I've had that up many times.
Oh yeah, yeah, that's for sure.

884
01:07:32,760 --> 01:07:35,280
That was one that was written about
a year or two after the incident.

885
01:07:35,440 --> 01:07:40,880
So there were there were some subsequent
articles written and people trying to attempt

886
01:07:40,920 --> 01:07:45,119
to reach out to them, but
most of those overtures were you know,

887
01:07:45,719 --> 01:07:48,000
pretty much rebuffed by the mother who
really didn't want to talk about it anymore.

888
01:07:48,760 --> 01:07:53,519
Again. They know, something happened, they were never able to grapple

889
01:07:53,639 --> 01:07:57,440
with what happened, and in fact, you know, Charles had some really

890
01:07:57,519 --> 01:08:00,920
interesting insights. He said, if
someone were to come to me today and

891
01:08:01,119 --> 01:08:05,199
ask me what happened, how can
I, as an adult, looking back

892
01:08:05,280 --> 01:08:12,239
fifty five years fifty six years now
and tell them with clarity what happened When

893
01:08:12,400 --> 01:08:17,439
my mother, my father, my
grandparents were there and they were witnessed to

894
01:08:17,560 --> 01:08:21,239
it in the aftermath, and they
couldn't speak to it at the time,

895
01:08:21,880 --> 01:08:27,039
How can I, as a child
then adult now look back on it and

896
01:08:27,159 --> 01:08:29,840
try to provide any more clarity?
He goes. The only thing I can

897
01:08:29,880 --> 01:08:32,399
do is share the details like I
shared with you, and try to answer

898
01:08:32,439 --> 01:08:35,399
as many questions as I can.
But he said, I still don't know

899
01:08:35,479 --> 01:08:40,359
what it was. He says,
some people say it's military, some people

900
01:08:40,399 --> 01:08:43,520
say it's a UFO. He goes, I have no idea. But he

901
01:08:43,640 --> 01:08:46,760
said, at the end of the
day, I know something happened. What

902
01:08:47,039 --> 01:08:51,359
was his recovery process? Like,
well, for the first week, as

903
01:08:51,359 --> 01:08:55,600
I mentioned, he was in the
hospital, And I think we have one

904
01:08:56,239 --> 01:09:00,840
I think at image number four where
you can actually see where he was discharged

905
01:09:00,920 --> 01:09:03,640
from the hospital. Yeah, there's
a news article I have that up right

906
01:09:03,680 --> 01:09:08,479
now. Oh great, Yeah,
and that was the Lubbock Avalanche and if

907
01:09:08,520 --> 01:09:11,920
you notice that was Lubbock, Texas
that ran that article. There was another

908
01:09:11,960 --> 01:09:15,760
one in Odessa, Texas. But
beyond that I could not find anything other

909
01:09:15,880 --> 01:09:20,119
than local. In other words,
Hobbs New Mexico newspaper and the Lee County

910
01:09:20,359 --> 01:09:28,359
newspaper that ran most of the articles. And you can follow his recovery on

911
01:09:28,479 --> 01:09:31,880
almost a daily basis. They had
a news article updating his status on a

912
01:09:32,399 --> 01:09:35,520
day by day basis, or he
was in the hospital. Yeah, so

913
01:09:36,000 --> 01:09:42,920
any any lasting effects. The only
lasting effects is he still has some hearing

914
01:09:43,000 --> 01:09:45,359
deficit in his right ear, and
as I mentioned, he has to wear

915
01:09:45,439 --> 01:09:53,000
glasses. Yeah. And in general, I know you said that he has

916
01:09:53,760 --> 01:09:56,680
he had no idea. He can't
tell you today or he couldn't tell you

917
01:09:56,800 --> 01:10:03,079
then what it is. But what
type of speculation at the time did you

918
01:10:03,319 --> 01:10:06,479
when you were digging around? What
did you find it? You already mentioned

919
01:10:06,880 --> 01:10:12,920
that, you know what the hoaxy
things like flint, burnt flint and the

920
01:10:13,279 --> 01:10:16,439
you know, but what were some
of the more logical or something that seemed

921
01:10:17,000 --> 01:10:21,720
logical as far as they were.
Yeah. One of the other things that

922
01:10:21,880 --> 01:10:26,840
the police were postulating is that he
was just playing with matches, And in

923
01:10:26,960 --> 01:10:30,560
fact, he remembers one of the
officers talking to him in the hospital stating,

924
01:10:30,159 --> 01:10:32,800
now we're going to go back to
that location, and if we see

925
01:10:32,800 --> 01:10:35,600
any matches, He goes, you're
going to be in big trouble. And

926
01:10:35,840 --> 01:10:39,640
they thought he was playing with matches
and somehow set his hair on fire,

927
01:10:39,680 --> 01:10:44,199
which obviously still would not account for
the major injury to his face. I

928
01:10:44,279 --> 01:10:45,560
mean it certainly that would set your
hair on fire, but I don't think

929
01:10:45,600 --> 01:10:50,680
it would cause the severity of burns
that he incurred. But he said that

930
01:10:50,840 --> 01:10:54,640
they went on location and they couldn't
find any matches. He goes, and

931
01:10:54,680 --> 01:10:57,760
now you even remember as a kid
thinking, I hope one of the people

932
01:10:57,840 --> 01:11:00,439
on the longer mat didn't light a
cigarette and throw a match down, because

933
01:11:00,439 --> 01:11:01,560
then they're going to blame that on
me. He goes. I remember as

934
01:11:01,600 --> 01:11:05,319
a kid thinking that that if they
do find something that then they think I

935
01:11:05,399 --> 01:11:11,000
did make this whole thing up,
which obviously he didn't. And again we

936
01:11:11,239 --> 01:11:15,800
have the grandmother's testimony. She physically
witnessed the object we're not just talking about.

937
01:11:15,840 --> 01:11:20,479
She witnessed him being burned, She
saw the object, She saw the

938
01:11:20,600 --> 01:11:27,119
object inflicting this harm upon him.
And again we're talking a devout Pentecostal family.

939
01:11:27,199 --> 01:11:30,840
The UFOs were probably not even in
their mindset. Now. One thing,

940
01:11:31,119 --> 01:11:34,239
one thing from the last clip I'd
like to touch on. The FBI

941
01:11:34,520 --> 01:11:41,840
was involved. The grandmother's blouse was
sent into the FBI laboratories, some of

942
01:11:41,880 --> 01:11:45,680
the skin that had fallen off his
face. They had taken skin scrapings,

943
01:11:45,119 --> 01:11:49,159
they had sent that in, and
his T shirt that he wore. They

944
01:11:49,239 --> 01:11:54,079
sent that in to have it analyzed. The family never heard back on it.

945
01:11:54,439 --> 01:11:58,840
They never heard another word. And
so in December of last year,

946
01:11:59,000 --> 01:12:01,720
I filed a request with the FBI
to try to get my hands on the

947
01:12:01,800 --> 01:12:06,600
case file, any information, the
laboratory results, anything that we could look

948
01:12:06,680 --> 01:12:12,119
at from the FBI standpoint. Within
about two to three weeks, I got

949
01:12:12,159 --> 01:12:16,760
a rejection letter stating because it involved
third party individuals, it would violate privacy

950
01:12:16,880 --> 01:12:21,640
issues, and so they terminated my
request. So I redrafted the exact same

951
01:12:21,720 --> 01:12:26,319
request, took my name off,
put his, put Charles's name on there,

952
01:12:26,840 --> 01:12:30,000
mailed it to Charles, had him
sign and date it, and he

953
01:12:30,159 --> 01:12:32,479
submitted it under his name, so
they can't say it's third party at that

954
01:12:32,560 --> 01:12:39,960
point, he received the letter back
and they stated they needed some additional information.

955
01:12:40,439 --> 01:12:44,000
And this isn't actually too long ago
since I spoke with him last,

956
01:12:44,439 --> 01:12:46,760
but he was wrestling with whether he
wanted to go through the time and effort

957
01:12:46,800 --> 01:12:50,560
of filling out all the additional paperwork
and submitting it. So I need to

958
01:12:50,640 --> 01:12:54,920
follow up again. He's not he
doesn't want to invest a lot of time

959
01:12:54,960 --> 01:12:57,720
in this. He was nice enough
to afford me time to interview him,

960
01:12:57,760 --> 01:13:00,720
but he's not in the UFOs and
he has a business to Ronnie as a

961
01:13:00,800 --> 01:13:04,119
family. But I am going to
be talking to him to see if he

962
01:13:04,159 --> 01:13:08,359
has resubmitted that, and if he
hasn't, I hope I can convince him

963
01:13:08,399 --> 01:13:12,520
to resubmit that in the hopes that
we can get some FBI laboratory results.

964
01:13:13,000 --> 01:13:15,239
Okay, one thing I want to
clarify, and I don't think we've touched

965
01:13:15,319 --> 01:13:19,920
on this at all, is that
he even though his name is out there,

966
01:13:21,800 --> 01:13:27,840
he has a different name and he
doesn't want he doesn't want people to

967
01:13:28,920 --> 01:13:32,640
he wants no publicity. Basically,
he runs a business. He's known in

968
01:13:32,760 --> 01:13:36,880
his little town that he's in.
Lots of people come into this business and

969
01:13:38,079 --> 01:13:42,680
he just doesn't want He does not
want any fanfare at all, and so

970
01:13:42,920 --> 01:13:45,199
he has nothing to gain. And
basically, you know how to connect to

971
01:13:45,319 --> 01:13:49,439
him. And I encourage the person
out there wanting to connect to him to

972
01:13:49,600 --> 01:13:54,399
forget about it, right, because
he doesn't want to hear from anyone.

973
01:13:54,479 --> 01:13:58,359
Really. Yeah, And if someone
does truly feel or if maybe someone's had

974
01:13:58,399 --> 01:14:02,079
a similar experience that they would like
to contact him, if you want to

975
01:14:02,159 --> 01:14:06,039
contact me through my website, I
would be more than happy to forward the

976
01:14:06,119 --> 01:14:11,479
email on I just can't guarantee you're
going to get a reply, but will

977
01:14:11,520 --> 01:14:15,159
I will promise your audience that I
will forward any emails I received to him,

978
01:14:15,760 --> 01:14:18,560
and then at that point it's upon
him if he wants to reply.

979
01:14:19,199 --> 01:14:24,760
Excellent. Well, we I'm sure
you could go into this case. It's

980
01:14:24,800 --> 01:14:28,600
just the clock has been ticking away. It always does every time you're on

981
01:14:29,000 --> 01:14:34,119
this show. It never seems like
there's enough. There's enough time left.

982
01:14:34,239 --> 01:14:39,399
But I would like to take calls. Right if there's a caller out there

983
01:14:39,439 --> 01:14:42,359
that has a question about this case. I know someone, it's possible some

984
01:14:42,479 --> 01:14:45,720
of me want to talk about triangle
UFO or something like that. That is

985
01:14:45,800 --> 01:14:49,359
possible. But if someone would like
to call in, I'll have that number

986
01:14:49,439 --> 01:14:55,399
up in the screen. But for
people listening in different ways and all different

987
01:14:55,439 --> 01:14:58,439
types of ways you can listen to
this, that number is eight five five

988
01:14:59,199 --> 01:15:03,840
four seven two five four eight three, And feel free to give a call

989
01:15:04,720 --> 01:15:09,520
right and we will be screening that
call a race over there at KGr A

990
01:15:09,720 --> 01:15:14,479
Radio, So feel free to call
in and the lines are wide open.

991
01:15:16,039 --> 01:15:19,840
Where do you think? Where do
you think you're going to get with?

992
01:15:20,439 --> 01:15:25,319
You said you've you've did the for
you that'll go in. Do you think

993
01:15:25,359 --> 01:15:30,199
that they anyone is thinking they had
an idea any type of you know,

994
01:15:32,279 --> 01:15:38,000
the FBI, for instance, do
you think they have they dove deep into

995
01:15:38,079 --> 01:15:43,199
this thing or do you think it's
just something they quickly looked at and moved

996
01:15:43,239 --> 01:15:47,039
on? Any ideas well? I
think it was probably the answer that's probably

997
01:15:47,039 --> 01:15:51,960
predicated on what the laboratory results were. If they didn't find any anomalies or

998
01:15:51,960 --> 01:15:58,119
anything highly unusual as a result of
doing the laboratory analysis on the grandmother's blouse

999
01:15:58,439 --> 01:16:00,800
or his shirt, where do you
really go from there? You know,

1000
01:16:00,960 --> 01:16:05,359
you have the testimony, you don't
show any anomalies, so there's really not

1001
01:16:05,560 --> 01:16:12,279
much to follow up on if they
did detect something highly unusual or some type

1002
01:16:12,319 --> 01:16:16,520
of residue on the grandmother's blouse or
his shirt or in the skin samples they

1003
01:16:16,600 --> 01:16:23,000
provided, then maybe they launched a
further inquiry. Now it does not mention

1004
01:16:23,079 --> 01:16:28,159
this in the newspapers from the time, but Charles remembers both the Hobbs Police

1005
01:16:28,680 --> 01:16:32,720
and FBI officers showing up in the
hospital in the wake of his burn,

1006
01:16:33,359 --> 01:16:38,880
and he says, you remember that, and I think this is rather interesting

1007
01:16:39,000 --> 01:16:42,239
for the eight year old child and
all of us. He said, when

1008
01:16:42,279 --> 01:16:45,640
you're in the hospital back in nineteen
sixty four and you're eight years old,

1009
01:16:45,760 --> 01:16:48,840
he goes, when you have government
agents come in with their badges and with

1010
01:16:48,960 --> 01:16:51,760
their guns. He said, you
remember that as an eight year old boy,

1011
01:16:53,039 --> 01:16:56,840
he goes. I was impressed with
that, and he said, he

1012
01:16:57,000 --> 01:17:00,079
goes. And he even commented,
he said the demeanor of the Hobbs Police

1013
01:17:00,399 --> 01:17:06,000
versus the FBI was very different.
The Hobbs Police they were like desperately trying

1014
01:17:06,039 --> 01:17:11,079
to find a prosaic explanation, he
said. The FBI, they came in

1015
01:17:11,399 --> 01:17:15,640
after the initial inquiries made by the
Hobbs Police, and he said they seemed

1016
01:17:15,720 --> 01:17:17,920
more sympathetic. They seemed like they
wanted to listen to me a little bit

1017
01:17:18,000 --> 01:17:24,560
more, that they weren't just trying
to basically call me a liar or try

1018
01:17:24,600 --> 01:17:28,119
to find an explanation. Now that
being said, the Hobbes police were very

1019
01:17:28,199 --> 01:17:30,239
cooperative with me when I reached out
to them. I was hoping to try

1020
01:17:30,279 --> 01:17:33,720
to get police reports from the time
period, and I was concerned given the

1021
01:17:33,760 --> 01:17:36,880
passage of time. But they were
very polite, and they said, we'll

1022
01:17:36,960 --> 01:17:40,640
check our records, but we don't
think we have them going back that far.

1023
01:17:41,119 --> 01:17:44,800
We do have some old case files
that were microfilmed. We'll go and

1024
01:17:44,960 --> 01:17:46,079
check, but again, we don't
know if we have anything going back to

1025
01:17:46,199 --> 01:17:48,920
sixty four. They checked, and
they did come back. They said,

1026
01:17:49,000 --> 01:17:51,880
Dave, we do have old case
files, but none going back that far,

1027
01:17:53,479 --> 01:17:57,000
and then checked. Yeah, and
the hospital I called, And I

1028
01:17:57,079 --> 01:17:59,920
work in the healthcare field, and
I know there's usually a ten year retention

1029
01:18:00,039 --> 01:18:03,880
and law with regard to medical records. Obviously we're well outside that window,

1030
01:18:03,920 --> 01:18:10,319
but I still did call the hospital
where he was taken and they said,

1031
01:18:10,359 --> 01:18:13,479
no, there's absolutely no way we'd
have medical records going back that far.

1032
01:18:14,119 --> 01:18:17,199
And so unfortunately, the FBI is
the only possible source, and being federal,

1033
01:18:18,000 --> 01:18:21,000
you know, if they do have
reports and they're willing to come forward,

1034
01:18:21,079 --> 01:18:25,600
that that's probably our best source of
government documentation with regard to this,

1035
01:18:25,800 --> 01:18:30,439
or documentation other than the newspaper accounts. All right, wow, interesting,

1036
01:18:30,840 --> 01:18:33,920
All right, Well we have Steve
from Oregon on the line. Steve,

1037
01:18:34,000 --> 01:18:38,800
welcome to the show. Hey guys, can you hear me? Okay,

1038
01:18:39,000 --> 01:18:42,560
we hear Oh my god. We
don't have any issues with technical problems.

1039
01:18:42,720 --> 01:18:46,479
Hi Steve, how are you?
Let means the nastart you'll probably hit a

1040
01:18:46,520 --> 01:18:49,159
rip here in a minute. Yeah, it's on the way. Yeah.

1041
01:18:50,399 --> 01:18:57,000
Yeah. So my question is it's
not about this particular case, it's about

1042
01:18:58,960 --> 01:19:05,920
how much work have you done with
boomerang shapes? I know you're yeah.

1043
01:19:06,239 --> 01:19:12,520
I collected a lot of boomerang reports
when I was doing my triangular UFO research

1044
01:19:12,600 --> 01:19:17,279
and specifically looking at the Hudson Valley
sidings, because for those that are familiar

1045
01:19:17,319 --> 01:19:23,319
with that case, they were describing
chevron shaped boomerang shaped as well as triangular

1046
01:19:23,399 --> 01:19:28,600
shaped objects. And so I haven't
done an exhaustive analysis of those cases,

1047
01:19:28,840 --> 01:19:31,800
but I've certainly come across a lot
and I have a lot here in the

1048
01:19:31,920 --> 01:19:35,520
files, you know, going back
decades, much like the triangles there,

1049
01:19:35,560 --> 01:19:40,920
there's a lot of these boomerang reports
over the years, and even probably some

1050
01:19:41,119 --> 01:19:45,279
today. And you know the Phoenix
lights. People often liken that to a

1051
01:19:45,359 --> 01:19:49,439
triangular UFO, but really it was
more of a wedge or chevron shaped V

1052
01:19:49,640 --> 01:19:54,560
shaped object, not really a true
triangle in the sense that at three sides,

1053
01:19:54,600 --> 01:19:58,239
it was more of a flying wing, if you will. And that's

1054
01:19:58,239 --> 01:20:02,159
why I'm that's why I'm asking.
I thought we'd been my real That's really

1055
01:20:02,279 --> 01:20:09,079
been what I've been interested in as
a page thirty Phoenix lights sighting right since

1056
01:20:10,199 --> 01:20:15,640
in the past few years, I've
been going through old documentary the Prebate Phoenix

1057
01:20:15,680 --> 01:20:20,399
flights, and I found a bunch
of those boomerangs and they all they all

1058
01:20:20,560 --> 01:20:30,279
share the same three characteristics of being
gigantic, slow, low, and silent

1059
01:20:30,399 --> 01:20:35,279
and get Yeah, if you get
the opportunity, go online and check out

1060
01:20:35,359 --> 01:20:40,720
some of Project Bluebooks owned files.
There's some really good cases from the nineteen

1061
01:20:40,760 --> 01:20:46,479
fifties and nineteen sixties with very detailed
sketches that show these boomerang shaped objects.

1062
01:20:46,800 --> 01:20:51,520
And in fact j. Allen Heineck
wrote in his one of his books,

1063
01:20:51,800 --> 01:20:57,359
paperback edition. I think it's the
Heineck Ufo Report. I was doing investigations

1064
01:20:57,399 --> 01:21:01,319
in Missouri back in the nineties and
an area called Marshfield, Missouri, and

1065
01:21:01,800 --> 01:21:05,520
there was a case in doing historical
research trying to compare historic cases to what

1066
01:21:05,800 --> 01:21:10,359
was being reported at that time.
There's a case that he writes about called

1067
01:21:10,399 --> 01:21:14,239
the Case of the Leisurely Boomerang,
and so that one might be of interest

1068
01:21:14,279 --> 01:21:16,560
to you as well. But there
are some really interesting cases in the files

1069
01:21:17,000 --> 01:21:23,479
touching on boomerangs. I've found a
bunch of them in the corridor between Albuquerque

1070
01:21:23,680 --> 01:21:30,479
and Phoenix, a bunch of cases
out in that area. Yeah curious,

1071
01:21:30,640 --> 01:21:32,720
I mean, because I found so
many cases now that go all the way

1072
01:21:32,720 --> 01:21:38,680
back to the fifties. Yeah,
that's something I can talk contact you about.

1073
01:21:39,399 --> 01:21:42,720
Yeah, please, please do.
I'd love to love to share some

1074
01:21:43,239 --> 01:21:45,800
information. I've got some case files
I could share with you as well.

1075
01:21:46,239 --> 01:21:49,319
Okay, that'd be fantastic. Yeah, thank you. Yes, it's a

1076
01:21:49,399 --> 01:21:53,640
great Stow. Thank you. Thanks
a lot for the call, Steve,

1077
01:21:54,600 --> 01:21:59,479
and the lines are wide open.
I knew we would get into I just

1078
01:21:59,600 --> 01:22:03,039
knew we get into some triangle UFOs. Now that's a great question. Yeah,

1079
01:22:03,239 --> 01:22:06,239
And uh, it seems to me
that you and I have had a

1080
01:22:06,880 --> 01:22:14,239
lot of conversations over the last few
years of me like finding these obscure people

1081
01:22:14,399 --> 01:22:17,239
having you know, a triangle UFO
one in Massachusetts of a woman that I

1082
01:22:17,359 --> 01:22:21,880
know in an auction gallery right over
her car. Uh. Then, um,

1083
01:22:23,359 --> 01:22:27,239
the one that happens stance. I
talked to a woman out at a

1084
01:22:27,399 --> 01:22:31,000
casino and and uh Arizona and she
said, oh yeah, and she told

1085
01:22:31,039 --> 01:22:34,920
me this whole story about a triangle
UFO following a car and uh, this

1086
01:22:35,119 --> 01:22:39,319
a lot and there's a I know
we're getting off the topic of the main

1087
01:22:39,399 --> 01:22:45,000
topic, but there's a lot of
speculation of course, UM, a lot

1088
01:22:45,000 --> 01:22:47,640
of people saying, you know military, you know, black ops or whatever

1089
01:22:47,680 --> 01:22:53,760
it is. But also, uh, you know there are there have been

1090
01:22:53,880 --> 01:22:57,640
sightings and people don't realize this.
Um, it seems like there's a lot

1091
01:22:57,680 --> 01:23:01,079
of triangle sightings now, but they
they're for the listener that has never heard

1092
01:23:01,079 --> 01:23:04,279
you talk about If we can just
touch on that a little bit, absolutely,

1093
01:23:04,520 --> 01:23:09,600
going back at very early times.
In fact, I will tell you

1094
01:23:09,680 --> 01:23:14,399
two things related to that if we
have time, I will be addressing this

1095
01:23:14,680 --> 01:23:18,039
very topic that you're talking about,
as far as military versus another explanation for

1096
01:23:18,119 --> 01:23:24,079
these triangular UFOs. For those that
watch the TV show Unidentified on the History

1097
01:23:24,159 --> 01:23:28,720
Channel, I will be in,
I'm told I will be an episode number

1098
01:23:28,760 --> 01:23:32,319
two of season two, and Steve
and the other audience members out there that

1099
01:23:32,399 --> 01:23:36,960
are interested in these cases, please
tune in. Chris Mellon came here to

1100
01:23:38,119 --> 01:23:43,039
my research room and we had some
very interesting discussions about the triangular UFO phenomenon,

1101
01:23:43,159 --> 01:23:46,680
which he is particularly interested in,
and you'll see that play out on

1102
01:23:46,840 --> 01:23:50,840
camera in that episode. And in
fact, it's structured around the basis of

1103
01:23:50,960 --> 01:23:55,800
my book, and we'll talk about
some of the common characteristics, and we

1104
01:23:55,920 --> 01:23:59,720
talk about could it be military,
could it be someone else's technology, could

1105
01:23:59,760 --> 01:24:03,680
it be a mixture of both.
And ironically, right before Chris arrived,

1106
01:24:03,720 --> 01:24:08,000
a week before he arrived, as
you know, Martin, I'm always gathering

1107
01:24:08,079 --> 01:24:13,119
new collections, new data, new
case files. I acquired a beautiful set

1108
01:24:13,279 --> 01:24:19,319
of nineteen fifty scrapbooks with vintage Flying
Saucer reports. Nothing gets better than going

1109
01:24:19,359 --> 01:24:25,159
through these old newspaper accounts and in
nineteen fifty and I shared this with Chris

1110
01:24:25,239 --> 01:24:27,560
and I hope it makes the final
cuts so you'll see it play out on

1111
01:24:27,640 --> 01:24:31,399
camera. I show it to him, and it is a description. It

1112
01:24:31,479 --> 01:24:39,119
says, flying Triangle's newest twist in
flying disc stories. This is nineteen fifty.

1113
01:24:39,159 --> 01:24:43,279
We weren't even calling him UFOs yet. And it is a report by

1114
01:24:43,319 --> 01:24:49,960
two individuals flying a private plane looking
down at two triangular UFOs. In other

1115
01:24:50,039 --> 01:24:54,960
words, it's between the ground and
their plane. How often do we ever

1116
01:24:55,079 --> 01:24:59,920
hear of a report of people looking
down on these triangular objects? And it's

1117
01:25:00,000 --> 01:25:03,319
in nineteen fifty and they go into
detail describing the account. And that's just

1118
01:25:03,439 --> 01:25:08,640
one I came across. There's actually
new, new old cases I've uncovered going

1119
01:25:08,720 --> 01:25:12,600
through the newspaper archives. Oh,
that is so fascinating. We have a

1120
01:25:12,680 --> 01:25:16,119
call here. We're just waiting for
to finish the screen, which would be

1121
01:25:16,279 --> 01:25:25,800
just any second. I love the
subject because because it's so interesting, and

1122
01:25:26,359 --> 01:25:31,319
what is really fascinating is that there's
so many different shapes and then it almost

1123
01:25:31,359 --> 01:25:36,159
seems like this year's model is this, and you know, and what I

1124
01:25:36,239 --> 01:25:42,239
saw, you know, what I
saw was my particular sighting was a blue

1125
01:25:43,079 --> 01:25:47,000
blue glow disc. And I haven't
really heard anyone talk about that. And

1126
01:25:47,119 --> 01:25:50,760
I was watching something the other night
and the guy said it was a it

1127
01:25:50,960 --> 01:25:54,399
was a flying saucer and it had
a blue glow to it, and it's

1128
01:25:54,399 --> 01:25:59,079
like wow, you know, so
I'm not alone absolutely, and that there's

1129
01:25:59,079 --> 01:26:02,560
so many different models. So a
lot of people are have talked about orbs.

1130
01:26:04,000 --> 01:26:08,039
You know, there's lights in the
sky and all that. But right

1131
01:26:08,119 --> 01:26:12,439
now it seems like there's a lot
of triangles and the report's in chaotic because

1132
01:26:12,479 --> 01:26:15,880
of that. There's so many different
subsets of UFO reports. But amongst that

1133
01:26:16,159 --> 01:26:19,319
noise, if you will, there
appear to be patterns in the data.

1134
01:26:19,399 --> 01:26:24,560
As I outlined with my book and
as Steve was alluding to with the boomerang

1135
01:26:24,640 --> 01:26:28,680
shaped UFOs, there do appear to
be patterns in the data and correlations.

1136
01:26:28,760 --> 01:26:31,239
And that's really if you were to
sum up my research, that's what I'm

1137
01:26:31,279 --> 01:26:34,840
looking for, patterns in the data, because if there's patterns in the data,

1138
01:26:34,920 --> 01:26:40,960
it's suggestive, not conclusive, suggestive
that we're dealing with a real phenomenon

1139
01:26:41,279 --> 01:26:47,159
that needs to be investigated. We
have Mike from Michigan. How you doing,

1140
01:26:47,239 --> 01:26:51,680
Mike, Welcome to the show.
Hey, guys, how's it going,

1141
01:26:53,399 --> 01:26:55,520
Hey, Mike, we're doing good. You got a question for our

1142
01:26:55,560 --> 01:27:00,520
guest tonight. Yeah, I want
to know about what you know about the

1143
01:27:01,079 --> 01:27:10,119
Kpe Girardo Missouri case Safely Linda MULLINHLL
yesterday on her show, and they were

1144
01:27:10,159 --> 01:27:15,760
talking about all this stuff, and
I was thinking, it's funny because it

1145
01:27:15,960 --> 01:27:21,720
wasn't Donald Trump just holding one of
his raelities in Missouri within the last year

1146
01:27:23,399 --> 01:27:30,159
in Cape Girardo. Rush Limbaugh.
Yeah, I don't know about the Donald

1147
01:27:30,159 --> 01:27:34,479
Trump connection, but the Cape Girardo
case comes up quite often. I think

1148
01:27:34,479 --> 01:27:40,079
you're talking about the nineteen forty one
purported crash of a UFO. Yes.

1149
01:27:40,680 --> 01:27:46,600
Yeah, I've had numerous researchers contact
me asking me do I have any documentation

1150
01:27:46,800 --> 01:27:51,760
pertaining to the nineteen forty one Cape
Girardo UFO crash case. And not only

1151
01:27:51,840 --> 01:27:56,720
do I not have any information,
I really, despite the dialogue that's been

1152
01:27:56,760 --> 01:28:00,239
out there on that, Mike,
I've not seen anybody provide one shred of

1153
01:28:00,319 --> 01:28:06,520
evidence to me until I can see
a contemporary newspaper account or something that we

1154
01:28:06,640 --> 01:28:10,319
can kind of hang our hat on. To me, it's kind of become

1155
01:28:10,319 --> 01:28:14,920
an urban myth, an urban legend
of sorts even in Roswell. We of

1156
01:28:14,960 --> 01:28:18,760
course had the Roswell Daily Record newspaper
that documented that yes, this was reported

1157
01:28:18,800 --> 01:28:23,920
at the time. But if someone
has information out there, I'd love to

1158
01:28:24,000 --> 01:28:27,119
see it. But really, at
this point, I'm kind of an agnostic

1159
01:28:27,199 --> 01:28:30,399
when it comes to the Cape Girardo
story. There's a lot of dialogue,

1160
01:28:30,800 --> 01:28:35,439
but there's no nothing that we can
really hang our hat on. And Martin,

1161
01:28:35,479 --> 01:28:39,039
I'd be interested to get your thoughts
on that as well. What's your

1162
01:28:39,079 --> 01:28:44,640
opinion. Well, we had Charlotte
Man on the show and is was she

1163
01:28:44,800 --> 01:28:48,039
the granddaughter? Yeah, she'll be
in Eureka Springs actually with me. Oh

1164
01:28:48,239 --> 01:28:54,319
yeah, interesting woman. And she
was on the show and talked about it,

1165
01:28:54,439 --> 01:28:59,000
and you know she is, she's
sold. She sold. She thinks

1166
01:28:59,000 --> 01:29:00,840
that really did happen. But hey, thanks for thanks for the call,

1167
01:29:00,960 --> 01:29:04,720
Mike. Thanks Mike, all good, see you guys. All right.

1168
01:29:05,359 --> 01:29:10,720
Next, we actually have another one. We got Steve from Las Vegas.

1169
01:29:11,039 --> 01:29:15,199
Welcome to the show. Steve,
Thank you very much. I'm I'm Martin

1170
01:29:15,279 --> 01:29:20,760
and that David question and I'll take
my answer off there first. I've been

1171
01:29:20,960 --> 01:29:25,479
following you at both h you a
follogyop for the past fifty years. I've

1172
01:29:25,479 --> 01:29:31,680
been collecting footage for the past twenty
five years, and I've been My conclusion

1173
01:29:31,880 --> 01:29:36,079
that I've been kind of questioning myself
is how is this going to coo?

1174
01:29:36,079 --> 01:29:42,319
It's going to come out? And
I think that with all the footage that

1175
01:29:42,399 --> 01:29:46,279
I've been collecting through the years,
the sightings are becoming more and more and

1176
01:29:47,199 --> 01:29:53,319
there were some sightings that get recorded
that this amazes me that I wish would

1177
01:29:53,359 --> 01:29:59,000
get analyzed more by people that could
analyze them. One of my questions is

1178
01:29:59,079 --> 01:30:04,159
do you think that that possibility that
these upos are letting us see them more

1179
01:30:04,199 --> 01:30:09,600
and more, and that our government
has started to open up a little bit

1180
01:30:10,199 --> 01:30:14,880
because they cannot keep them from showing
themselves when they want to, whenever they

1181
01:30:14,960 --> 01:30:20,039
want to over a military and my
second question. Chris Millen wrote an article

1182
01:30:20,079 --> 01:30:28,439
of stating that the House Committee of
Based Science and Technology had asked NASA to

1183
01:30:28,600 --> 01:30:32,479
investigate some of these sidings that they
could be probes that correct with a probes.

1184
01:30:33,000 --> 01:30:38,560
Thank you, yeah, wow,
great questions. I don't know where

1185
01:30:38,560 --> 01:30:41,920
to start. First. I'd like
to thank you for all your years of

1186
01:30:42,000 --> 01:30:45,159
dedication and following the subject matter and
researching it. I mean many people get

1187
01:30:45,199 --> 01:30:48,239
involved in the subject that they get
burned out very quickly because they don't find

1188
01:30:48,239 --> 01:30:54,039
any answers. And there's not many
stubborn people like you and I that stick

1189
01:30:54,119 --> 01:30:57,079
with it for for decades and continue
to plug away. So thank you,

1190
01:30:58,239 --> 01:31:00,920
But I would like to add I
was going to mention before you did,

1191
01:31:01,039 --> 01:31:04,960
Chris Mellon. I think the efforts
of Chris and his group, and with

1192
01:31:05,159 --> 01:31:12,720
the US Navy now coming forward and
basically verifying that these UAPs, these UFOs

1193
01:31:12,840 --> 01:31:16,479
that were filmed by naval pilots are
a legitimate phenomenon, that these films are

1194
01:31:16,600 --> 01:31:24,159
legitimate, and the doors that Chris
and his team have opened, There's been

1195
01:31:24,199 --> 01:31:28,439
a lot of dialogue on Capitol Hill
that is not making media coverage. There

1196
01:31:28,720 --> 01:31:31,760
are behind the scenes discussions, and
I think you'll see that in season two

1197
01:31:31,760 --> 01:31:34,880
of Unidentified. I think they'll be
touching on that a little bit as much

1198
01:31:34,920 --> 01:31:40,439
as they can. But you bring
up a really good point though, as

1199
01:31:40,479 --> 01:31:44,319
far as are these UFOs wanting to
be seen more? Are they allowing themselves

1200
01:31:44,359 --> 01:31:48,560
to be seen more? And that
I can't answer that definitively, but one

1201
01:31:48,680 --> 01:31:53,960
might think yes, especially looking at
these military encounters where they were able to

1202
01:31:54,039 --> 01:31:58,840
film them and track them on their
egis radar systems where we not only have

1203
01:31:58,920 --> 01:32:01,760
footage, we have to limit where
we can measure speed and distance and angular

1204
01:32:01,840 --> 01:32:08,520
velocity and things like that. So
I think that's interesting, and you touch

1205
01:32:08,560 --> 01:32:11,439
on something I wrote about in my
book which you may have read, where

1206
01:32:11,560 --> 01:32:15,760
I talk about people talk about disclosure, disclosure, Disclosure is going to happen

1207
01:32:16,279 --> 01:32:20,600
well as far as the cover up
and disclosures concerned. If we're dealing with

1208
01:32:20,680 --> 01:32:26,520
an advanced technology and an advanced intelligence, if they want to make themselves known,

1209
01:32:26,760 --> 01:32:30,479
they could obviously do so. It's
clear that they can fly rings around

1210
01:32:30,520 --> 01:32:33,800
our military aircraft. So we don't
have control of the phenomenon. Rather,

1211
01:32:33,880 --> 01:32:39,239
the phenomenon has control of us.
So when people talk about the government covering

1212
01:32:39,279 --> 01:32:43,319
it up, they're covering up as
best they can, but they're at odds

1213
01:32:43,359 --> 01:32:45,439
to come to terms with what they're
dealing with because we do appear to be

1214
01:32:45,520 --> 01:32:50,720
dealing with advanced technology. And again
I say that confidently now deferring to the

1215
01:32:50,840 --> 01:32:56,479
naval footage and the naval pilots that
have come forward that have stated these things

1216
01:32:56,520 --> 01:33:00,000
are flying rings around our aircraft.
So there's a lot of people that are

1217
01:33:00,079 --> 01:33:05,359
making great money on the lecture circuit, just talking about disclosure and speculating,

1218
01:33:05,399 --> 01:33:09,359
and that's really what it is,
a speculation. But at the end of

1219
01:33:09,399 --> 01:33:12,640
the day, we're at the mercy
of this phenomenon, whatever it is,

1220
01:33:12,920 --> 01:33:19,439
because clearly it's advanced technology that is
that is really I'm glad you said all

1221
01:33:19,520 --> 01:33:26,159
that because those are many things that
I've pondered, you know, more recently

1222
01:33:26,279 --> 01:33:30,279
than not. You know, we
only have two minutes left, So I

1223
01:33:30,399 --> 01:33:36,760
do want to tell the listener,
both on the podcast and on YouTube that

1224
01:33:36,920 --> 01:33:43,439
we are going to play the eleven
minute clip of Charles Davis, the witness,

1225
01:33:43,840 --> 01:33:48,920
the person who actually now recorded last
year, a video of that recorded

1226
01:33:48,960 --> 01:33:51,319
last year. So at the end, you want to hang in. I'm

1227
01:33:51,359 --> 01:33:55,279
going to go into a break.
Then I'm going to check my audio and

1228
01:33:55,399 --> 01:33:57,640
make sure that it's coming through,
and then I'm going to come back on.

1229
01:33:57,880 --> 01:34:00,960
So for the listener on YouTube,
just hanging there. We'll be right

1230
01:34:01,000 --> 01:34:05,000
back after that. Dave. So
we got one minute left. Are you

1231
01:34:05,840 --> 01:34:09,960
going to be You're going to be
speaking in how many places you have lined

1232
01:34:10,000 --> 01:34:12,960
up right now? Oh? I've
got about six or seven lectures this year.

1233
01:34:13,119 --> 01:34:16,640
If people go to my website Www. David Marler ufo dot com.

1234
01:34:17,119 --> 01:34:21,239
Click on the lecture tab and you'll
have a link to each of those conferences

1235
01:34:21,319 --> 01:34:26,520
so you'll see where I'm speaking.
I'll be in Eureka Springs, Arkansas,

1236
01:34:26,560 --> 01:34:30,119
Atio's Arc Mountain UFO Conference April tenth
through twelfth, the Spring twenty twenty Move

1237
01:34:30,279 --> 01:34:36,079
On Pennsylvania Conference April twenty fourth through
twenty fifth, and I'll be speaking at

1238
01:34:36,159 --> 01:34:40,399
Phoenix, Move On, Denver,
Colorado, Move On. I'll be in

1239
01:34:40,479 --> 01:34:46,119
Shag Harbor in Nova Scotia October Wow
this October, Yeah, and so along

1240
01:34:46,159 --> 01:34:49,560
with some other lectures. So please
go to my website check that out,

1241
01:34:49,680 --> 01:34:54,279
feel free to reach out to me. But yeah, I'll be covering quite

1242
01:34:54,279 --> 01:34:56,960
a bit of ground this year.
Martin excellent. All right, David.

1243
01:34:57,600 --> 01:35:00,399
The Times is always way too short
with you, and I want to thank

1244
01:35:00,399 --> 01:35:03,199
you so much. And it's been
a real pleasure getting to know you as

1245
01:35:03,239 --> 01:35:08,640
well. And I think they broke
the mold when they make you, and

1246
01:35:08,680 --> 01:35:13,039
I hope other people will look at
your work and be inspired to do the

1247
01:35:13,119 --> 01:35:15,960
same type of work. So all
right, So that's it for the show.

1248
01:35:16,640 --> 01:35:19,560
I'm sorry, I'm snart it for
the show. That's it for the

1249
01:35:19,640 --> 01:35:25,199
show over at KGr A Radio.
For all else others, hang in there,

1250
01:35:25,399 --> 01:35:33,640
we'll be right back right after this
break. Don't go away, all

1251
01:35:33,720 --> 01:35:39,439
right, Welcome back everyone, and
I am going to run the clip right

1252
01:35:39,520 --> 01:35:45,479
now. This is Charles Davis last
year, last fall, talking about the

1253
01:35:45,560 --> 01:35:50,520
object and what happened to him in
nineteen sixty four. I'm Charles Keith Davis

1254
01:35:50,720 --> 01:35:57,199
from Hobbs, New Mexico, and
in nineteen sixty four, I encountered a

1255
01:35:57,319 --> 01:36:05,279
strange object Jordan daylight hours and my
grandparents laundry matt that appeared over some apartment

1256
01:36:05,359 --> 01:36:13,680
buildings that was in the shape of
a top that you must have been described

1257
01:36:13,760 --> 01:36:18,359
as a UFO or whatever you want
to describe it. But it followed me

1258
01:36:18,760 --> 01:36:25,039
and swooped on my body and gave
me second to third degree birds on my

1259
01:36:25,199 --> 01:36:30,960
face. My grandmother witnessed part of
it, Grady Smith, and I don't

1260
01:36:31,000 --> 01:36:36,000
know what it was. I just
know that I encountered something very unusual that

1261
01:36:36,159 --> 01:36:43,319
we've kind of kept under the closet
for fifty five years, and up until

1262
01:36:43,399 --> 01:36:45,399
day came, we haven't talked about
it much. It's kind of been like

1263
01:36:45,920 --> 01:36:49,880
I'm not going to say a family
secret, but there's so many skeptics out

1264
01:36:49,920 --> 01:36:56,159
there that it's not something you want
to talk about. And have you asked

1265
01:36:56,159 --> 01:36:59,079
me what it is or what it
was? I don't know. I just

1266
01:36:59,319 --> 01:37:02,039
know it was said something you see
every day or I've ever seen in my

1267
01:37:02,159 --> 01:37:09,039
lifetime. Again, if it was
domestic or from our space, I have

1268
01:37:09,159 --> 01:37:13,199
no idea, no ideal at all. I just know that I saw it.

1269
01:37:13,760 --> 01:37:16,880
It swooped toward me in gulf my
body. When it left, I

1270
01:37:16,960 --> 01:37:20,359
had second to third degree burns from
my face up. I know. They

1271
01:37:20,439 --> 01:37:28,159
brought in the FBI, the Hobbs
Police Department, and to this day we

1272
01:37:28,279 --> 01:37:30,880
still don't have answers. I know
they took part of my clothing to check

1273
01:37:30,960 --> 01:37:35,319
it for evidence. They checked the
air I was burned, and fifty five

1274
01:37:35,399 --> 01:37:39,960
years later, I'm going to tell
you there's no answers anymore than we had

1275
01:37:40,079 --> 01:37:44,920
the day that the occurrence occurred.
That that makes sense, that's aspect.

1276
01:37:45,119 --> 01:37:47,840
I went to my grandparents laundry,
Matt they were going to watch me that

1277
01:37:48,000 --> 01:37:54,960
day, and I was very comfortable. There was very at home. It

1278
01:37:55,039 --> 01:37:57,399
was almost like a home away from
home. It was one of the family

1279
01:37:57,479 --> 01:38:01,239
businesses and I remember, I can't
remember in detail because it's been so many

1280
01:38:01,319 --> 01:38:04,920
years, but I was out in
the back of the laundry map for people

1281
01:38:05,039 --> 01:38:11,000
part to unload their clothes and the
main entrance into the laundry map, and

1282
01:38:11,119 --> 01:38:14,800
I was out there, just horseplay
and playing, and I remember I looked

1283
01:38:14,880 --> 01:38:19,520
up and I saw object very dark
I would describe as black, similar to

1284
01:38:19,640 --> 01:38:24,960
the shape of a top. And
I remember looking up and seeing it and

1285
01:38:25,079 --> 01:38:29,640
it frightened me or startled me,
or I don't know if the word you

1286
01:38:29,680 --> 01:38:33,000
would use, but I remember I
was fixed on it, and it seemed

1287
01:38:33,000 --> 01:38:36,479
to be a fixed upon me.
And I don't know if I moved left

1288
01:38:36,600 --> 01:38:41,359
or right first, but when I
moved, it moved with me. When

1289
01:38:41,399 --> 01:38:45,439
I moved, it moved. I
remember ducking at one point to try to

1290
01:38:45,600 --> 01:38:48,399
hide from the object, and I
remember standing up and moving to the other

1291
01:38:48,479 --> 01:38:53,800
side from the obcentration. I moved, and at that point it was just

1292
01:38:54,000 --> 01:38:58,399
a matter of seconds it swooped on
me. And I don't know what it

1293
01:38:58,640 --> 01:39:00,439
was, you know what I mean, I have no idea. I know

1294
01:39:00,560 --> 01:39:04,800
it was burning me and I screamed
from my grandmother and I ran forward the

1295
01:39:04,880 --> 01:39:09,600
laundry mat to get a hold of
my grandmother, and I got a hold

1296
01:39:09,600 --> 01:39:12,960
of her right there. What did
that feel like? You described that previously

1297
01:39:13,119 --> 01:39:16,800
when when you were enveloped in that
flame or underneath this thing. I'm gonna

1298
01:39:16,800 --> 01:39:27,520
say terror as big a child and
having something attack you, but maybe the

1299
01:39:27,600 --> 01:39:31,199
word more shock. Maybe I was
more shocked because even as a child,

1300
01:39:31,359 --> 01:39:36,960
I knew what was happening wasn't supposed
to be happening. It wasn't something you

1301
01:39:38,000 --> 01:39:43,199
would occur in your everyday daily occurreds
you'd never seen anything before or since like

1302
01:39:43,319 --> 01:39:46,840
that, not at all. Yeah, And to this day, I don't

1303
01:39:46,880 --> 01:39:49,640
know what it was. I said, I don't know if it was military

1304
01:39:50,279 --> 01:39:55,520
or you don't. I have no
idea, I don't Can you walk us

1305
01:39:55,520 --> 01:39:59,760
through that. I remember my grandmother
trying to put my hair out because my

1306
01:39:59,840 --> 01:40:04,199
hair was on fire. My face
was burnt severely. I remember there was

1307
01:40:04,279 --> 01:40:11,039
a nurse there. I remember somebody
pouring something on my head to try to

1308
01:40:11,640 --> 01:40:15,119
sense the fire where my face had
been burning on my hair, and I

1309
01:40:15,199 --> 01:40:19,119
remember they wanted to call an ambulance. And right at that moment, my

1310
01:40:19,199 --> 01:40:25,079
grandfather had just happened to pull into
the laundry math and he was like,

1311
01:40:25,279 --> 01:40:28,760
no, we don't have time to
wait, and the nurse and my grandfather

1312
01:40:28,920 --> 01:40:32,479
put me in their car and drove
me to the hospital. And at the

1313
01:40:32,600 --> 01:40:39,439
hospital there was a doctor Badger that
was a bird specialist with the birds.

1314
01:40:40,039 --> 01:40:44,079
And what do you remember being diagnosed
with? Where the second third degree,

1315
01:40:44,359 --> 01:40:46,600
second and third degree birds? Second
third degree bird. I remember my eyes

1316
01:40:46,640 --> 01:40:50,560
were burnt shut. I couldn't see
for the first few days, and they

1317
01:40:50,600 --> 01:40:55,680
said my ears had turned inside out. I had burnt so severely or one

1318
01:40:55,800 --> 01:41:00,720
side head and it was just it
was something odd, you know. I

1319
01:41:00,760 --> 01:41:05,239
mean, I can't I really don't
know what to say about it because it

1320
01:41:05,439 --> 01:41:11,920
was so It's just something that doesn't
happen every day. I wasn't allowed of

1321
01:41:12,000 --> 01:41:15,880
mirror. I'm gonna say, nobody
told me how bad I looked. I

1322
01:41:15,079 --> 01:41:18,880
just know I wasn't allowed of mirror
so I could see myself. But I

1323
01:41:19,039 --> 01:41:27,119
inadvertently found a mirror on the table
trade that they have for the bad And

1324
01:41:27,239 --> 01:41:30,239
if I had to describe it,
I look like a monster you'd see coming

1325
01:41:30,279 --> 01:41:35,479
out of the marsh. But you
know, with the algae and stuff hanging

1326
01:41:35,560 --> 01:41:41,239
like skin hanging and distorted. I
remember it scared me. I knew I

1327
01:41:41,399 --> 01:41:46,039
was burnt bad. Yeah, when
I saw that, and that's when I

1328
01:41:46,439 --> 01:41:50,760
probably realized how since early hurt I
was and burned, I felt blessed.

1329
01:41:50,800 --> 01:41:55,800
I didn't have more scarring or scars
that you know what I mean? Absolutely

1330
01:41:55,880 --> 01:42:00,800
that show. Absolutely, I'm gonna
say I had a lot of good people

1331
01:42:01,439 --> 01:42:08,520
that came to the hospital to check
on me, to braaby gifts, well

1332
01:42:08,640 --> 01:42:13,279
wishes, get well cards. You
had people that just cared that a child

1333
01:42:13,399 --> 01:42:16,279
had been burnt. But it was
a very supportive time at the time I

1334
01:42:16,479 --> 01:42:23,520
was burnt. I don't want to
use the word horrified. I'm gonna the

1335
01:42:23,600 --> 01:42:27,159
best word I could he use a
shock. I was just literally a shock.

1336
01:42:27,640 --> 01:42:31,800
I never experienced or encountered anything like
that for me. What type of

1337
01:42:31,880 --> 01:42:36,800
pain did you experience throughout this entire
episode. I'm gonna say I felt no

1338
01:42:38,039 --> 01:42:41,399
pain at the time of the burn, but I'm going to say that I

1339
01:42:41,520 --> 01:42:45,319
was shock. What I remember is
itchy wanting to just claw my flesh off

1340
01:42:45,359 --> 01:42:49,720
because my skin itch so bad.
But I don't remember severe pain. I

1341
01:42:49,800 --> 01:42:55,520
don't remember feeling like something was burning
me, if that makes sense. I

1342
01:42:55,720 --> 01:43:00,359
just knew something was wrong when it
engulfed my body. Then something was right.

1343
01:43:01,000 --> 01:43:05,159
It would be almost be like a
stranger kidnapping a child. Something grabbed

1344
01:43:05,199 --> 01:43:10,119
bee or engulf bee, and it
wasn't right. And I wanted my grandmother

1345
01:43:10,239 --> 01:43:13,720
or my mother, or like a
small child looking for a parent, if

1346
01:43:13,800 --> 01:43:16,920
that makes sense. And then immediately
after, how did you let me ask

1347
01:43:17,000 --> 01:43:23,680
you? How did this object depart? I'm going to say I departed it,

1348
01:43:25,399 --> 01:43:28,600
but I'm would saying I was said
to stay to shock. My grandmother

1349
01:43:28,800 --> 01:43:32,840
was coming out the back of the
laundry mad, so I she actually saw

1350
01:43:32,960 --> 01:43:39,239
what happen. I remember being engulfed, and I remember running and screaming from

1351
01:43:39,279 --> 01:43:45,600
my grandmother forward, but I don't
ever remember felling heat or any burning sensation.

1352
01:43:45,840 --> 01:43:49,279
I knew I was on fire when
I got to my grandmother because she's

1353
01:43:49,279 --> 01:43:53,520
trying to put my hair out right, But I don't remember a sense of

1354
01:43:53,640 --> 01:43:58,039
pain. But I'm going to contributed
to shock. You know that your body

1355
01:43:58,119 --> 01:44:03,880
said shot, But I don't know
how from the time it covered me till

1356
01:44:03,960 --> 01:44:08,359
the time I got to the last
thing I remember it. The object is

1357
01:44:08,479 --> 01:44:11,520
boom. It was on me.
That's what I remember. After that,

1358
01:44:12,159 --> 01:44:15,680
I just remember my main concern was
getting to my grandmother because something was wrong.

1359
01:44:17,159 --> 01:44:20,319
This is going to sound dumb,
and I'm being very truthful. I

1360
01:44:20,560 --> 01:44:26,000
had a sense that it knew me, and I don't mean no, but

1361
01:44:26,479 --> 01:44:29,960
it was there for me, and
I don't mean to like kidnap me or

1362
01:44:30,039 --> 01:44:33,279
take me away. But when I
saw it, I just knew something was

1363
01:44:33,359 --> 01:44:38,039
wrong. That was what caused me
to moom to the left. You know

1364
01:44:38,079 --> 01:44:39,880
what I mean, to try to
get out of it. You know what

1365
01:44:39,920 --> 01:44:42,520
I mean, just to try to
get out of like being in the sight

1366
01:44:42,600 --> 01:44:45,439
of a gut. I just wanted
to get away from it. When I

1367
01:44:45,560 --> 01:44:51,319
moved, it moved perfectly with my
motion. I remember ducking behind the concrete

1368
01:44:51,359 --> 01:44:56,680
little validation thing, thinking I would
hide from it. But when I stood

1369
01:44:56,720 --> 01:44:59,680
back up, it was still there, and it was I'd moved one more

1370
01:44:59,760 --> 01:45:01,840
time to the other side. Boom, it was on me. I'm gonna

1371
01:45:01,880 --> 01:45:05,760
sew it could have been thirty seconds, forty five seconds, but I'm gonna

1372
01:45:05,760 --> 01:45:10,880
say no longer than a minute or
so. I remember whoshing once or twice.

1373
01:45:11,039 --> 01:45:13,640
I can't tell you if it was
when it was up in the air,

1374
01:45:14,600 --> 01:45:17,039
but if I remember, my grandma
said she heard woshing you know,

1375
01:45:17,359 --> 01:45:24,640
slushing or whirling sounds, and when
you were engulfed in apparently the fire or

1376
01:45:24,680 --> 01:45:30,880
the flame, I where there are
any sense of smell that you can recall.

1377
01:45:30,319 --> 01:45:35,960
I just remember filling engulfed. I
don't remember filling it burning me.

1378
01:45:39,359 --> 01:45:43,039
The best I could describe, and
said, golf and maybe you're gasping for

1379
01:45:43,199 --> 01:45:46,199
air because you have a lack of
oxygen. I just knew when it in

1380
01:45:46,239 --> 01:45:50,079
golf me something was wrong, real
wrong. You don't have any excused by

1381
01:45:50,159 --> 01:45:55,399
dumb terminology, not regular wrong,
but serious wrong, right, And I

1382
01:45:55,560 --> 01:46:00,439
needed to get out of this engulfment. And I just remember somebody grabbed me,

1383
01:46:00,520 --> 01:46:03,880
but nobody was grabbing me. I
was just goal of Yeah, I

1384
01:46:04,039 --> 01:46:11,399
was in golf, and there was
an immediate penny. But in hindsight,

1385
01:46:12,359 --> 01:46:16,960
and I'm being very sincere, I
think I would have so I knew something

1386
01:46:17,159 --> 01:46:23,680
was wrong when it right, you
know, you know something's wrong. But

1387
01:46:24,399 --> 01:46:27,680
when it actually engulfed me, something
was real wrong. I don't know how

1388
01:46:27,720 --> 01:46:30,159
to describe that. I don't think
I felt the sense that I was going

1389
01:46:30,199 --> 01:46:33,880
to die, but I felt the
sense I had to get away from it.

1390
01:46:34,520 --> 01:46:38,760
I had to get away. Now. Yeah, Cooper was going to

1391
01:46:38,840 --> 01:46:42,399
be tragic, okay, but I
felt no pain. I saw no fire

1392
01:46:44,520 --> 01:46:46,760
more than anything. I remember them
telling me my face and my hair was

1393
01:46:46,840 --> 01:46:51,039
on fire. But I don't remember
feeling pain at that point, but I

1394
01:46:51,159 --> 01:46:56,640
think I was in shock, to
be honest with you. Well, that's

1395
01:46:56,680 --> 01:47:01,840
it for the clip. I call
that a very credible witness myself. He

1396
01:47:01,960 --> 01:47:06,199
has nothing to gain by this.
Put it away. Dave found him.

1397
01:47:08,800 --> 01:47:14,159
To me, I think it's a
really interesting case. Again, no answer

1398
01:47:14,279 --> 01:47:16,560
to it. I don't have any
answer. I don't think anyone has an

1399
01:47:16,560 --> 01:47:20,399
answer. But that's it for the
show. This an evening, this evening.

1400
01:47:20,439 --> 01:47:25,680
I do thank everyone for listening and
hanging in, and we got through

1401
01:47:25,800 --> 01:47:30,840
our technical difficulties. Okay, we
made it. Next next week we have

1402
01:47:30,840 --> 01:47:35,479
Kevin Knuth or Nuth. I think
it is a UFO science He's got a

1403
01:47:35,520 --> 01:47:41,319
PhD in physics and should be a
kind of a science show. Should be

1404
01:47:41,359 --> 01:47:45,319
a lot of fun for those who
like science. I will be entertaining I

1405
01:47:45,680 --> 01:47:49,199
somehow. I'm sure we'll try to
pull that off for the people that do

1406
01:47:49,359 --> 01:47:53,399
not want to listen to technical stuff
and science and stuff like that. But

1407
01:47:53,520 --> 01:47:57,039
I do want to thank everyone that
helps out with the show behind the scenes,

1408
01:47:57,079 --> 01:48:00,119
and all I want to thank Peggy
over at the face book page and

1409
01:48:01,119 --> 01:48:08,359
people that work again behind the scenes
helping me out. Palmer with some UFO

1410
01:48:08,479 --> 01:48:12,560
stories, sorry didn't get to any
of them today. And there's so many

1411
01:48:12,640 --> 01:48:15,880
people that do help out with the
show and also support the show, and

1412
01:48:16,119 --> 01:48:20,239
I'm very grateful for it all.
And what a great Super Tuesday this has

1413
01:48:20,279 --> 01:48:26,039
been. Thanks again everyone, and
remember to keep your eyes to the sky.