WEBVTT

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Hey guys, it's Jack. I
just wanted to talk to you today about

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dot com. Slash the Teamhouse, Special

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Operations Coberts, Aspiona, the Team
House with your Hopes, Jack Murphy and

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David Park. Everybody. Welcome to
episode two hundred and seventy seven of The

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Teamhouse. I'm Dave Park. We're
with Jack Murphy and our guest again tonight,

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Jack Divine. If you haven't seen
Jack's first episode, please check out

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two sixty uh Cia Legend and we
really appreciate you joining us again tonight.

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Well, I'm glad to be back. I'm a little more tense this time

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because last time I got some feedback
right away. Say, you were doing

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well at the beginning, but when
you reached for the brass knuckles, it

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brought back then from two CIA guys. And I'm thinking, wait a minute,

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was that my management? Fine,
don't know, but I'm sitting here

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and I'm my left hand wants to
grab it, but I was gonna.

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I'm folded by hinds, so I
don't touch it. So we're getting a

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little uh, we're getting a little
tea from the past. Well, maybe

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maybe your next book. Also,
Jack has written a Good Hunting and The

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Spymaster's Prism. Check them both out. But maybe your next book should be

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interviewing people who worked for you and
getting that feedback on the uh. We

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did interview for the first book,
Good Hunting, about eighty people. Yeah,

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because I had my I asked a
couple of people in my staff because

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I think it's awkward for you to
call right right, and one of the

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things you worry about when you're you're
got a fan of a large unit,

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and that is at least I think
it's common among CEOs. Was I strong

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enough? Right? So they came
back and said Jack don't worry about that

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one, so I don't know what
they meant. But the second one I'm

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not going to go into because it
was sort of deprecating. Uh guys,

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well, I'm gonna have that one
of your bourbons later before before we jump

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I might try one of those later, although the office refused. Well,

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my assistant refuses to serve me caffeinated
coffee. She thinks I get too hypers.

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Yeah, she won't take my calls
after she's heard of. So you

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know her name is Stephanie by I
better do a shout out there. I'm

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in trouble taking her name in vain. Stephanie, You're the best. I

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didn't say that, we added that. We added Yeah, she's better than

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better than that. So, you
know, the last time you were on

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we covered I don't know, maybe
a third of the book Good Hunting.

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It's kind of a chronological story of
your life or time in the agency.

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There were a lot of things we
didn't get to. Some of we want

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to touch on tonight, but some
we also want to ask, you know,

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just your opinion on different aspects of
espionage, different takes on what's going

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on in the world today. And
I think the first take that Jack and

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I are most interested in, because
we're both kind of movie buffs, is

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like your take on the movie industry. Which movies get it right, what

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movies get it wrong? About the
CIA? Yeah, things like that.

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Well, growing up in the agency, you know, I almost refused to

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watch a James Bond movie. I
thought it trivialized it right, and it's

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silly right. Also, Metron Connery, I'll tell you about that. We

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had dinner once, but and then
one day, what are you doing?

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James Bond is dashy right the world
of things. He goes out and solves

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all their problems. The queen loves
them, and you're going around. Now.

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I'm not like that. I'm really
kind of a dull bureau right way

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a minute. So that's the plus
side. There is a downside because there's

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an impression in some policy circles that
yes, see how you can do everything,

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and therefore the you have to approach
that cover action business we talked about

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with some restraint. But there's lessons
in a lot of movies. The James

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Bourne I enjoy them immensely. The
first one I looked at. This is

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really a lot of fun. Right, they have the technology, but it

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wasn't integrated like the movies. Right, But we go the James Bourne Reborn.

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It was so Hollywood has a tendency
sometimes to think out more creatively about

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the future. So I think that
was another and you stop me where you're

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one. But one of the things, you know, trying during the Afghan

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War to get a media campaign against
the Russians and all of this, you

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know you'd have to go around and
get fifty people with signs. Right today

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with social media, I mean,
it's a totally different game, right.

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But the most powerful impact was I
think was Rainbow three with Slice alone,

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where he's hanging out of the single
handedly defeating the Russian army rear wide movie

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and it changed the view will not
changed. It a tremendous impact. Yeah,

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so you know, I kid about
it, and then you get into

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some serious movies which John mccara's books
so there because he was in the business,

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he gets the texture of the betrayal
and the darker side and he does

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Tinker Tailor is one of my favorite
because it's really the philby Kim Philby story,

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one of the great not from our
perspective, but one of the the

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great traders of the British Service and
the interaction and it is really quite quite

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realistic. So I've come around on
it. In fact, I'm going to

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do a series on them because I'm
interested in because a lot of life lessons

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have come out of it and what's
behind you try. I have to ask

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then, Jack, because you have
direct involvement, what did you think of

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Charlie Wilson's war with Tom Hanks?
Is there assignments? Well, I guess

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I didn't discuss it. But Charlie
was a very interesting guy to travel with.

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He was an important face of the
program, great ambassador if you will,

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of it, but he didn't have
hands on in the running of the

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program. He didn't decide what weapons
where they went, how they went the

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training. But he was a great
ally. So he invited me to dinner

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with his wife after he retired from
Congress, and he wanted to go to

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Spark Steakhouse and well Spark Steakhouses where
Paul Costiano the mafia dom was killed on

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the stuff. He didn't want to
go to Smith and Lensky's. He wanted

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something with Disaz that was Charlie.
But at the dinner he reached across and

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put his hand on me, and
you know something's coming, right, he

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said, Jack, you know you
didn't like the book. You're going to

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hate the movie. And the reason
is I you could laugh about it because

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it was Charlie. When you can
get a ward named after you and you

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learned the real the key of this
program, that's quite an accomplishment. And

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he knew that, and he was
due credit for sure. But it wasn't

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his war. The war was really
made up of hundreds of people. The

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mule skinner that made, you know, made the saddles for the mules,

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the trainers of the Stinger missile,
the people that rounded the mules and drove

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them across China, the people that
helped build the weapons. Trained. So

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when Milt Beerden, who was the
chief in Islamabad, when it came to

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an end, sent out a cable
saying, we want and I think it's

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better for history. It's a lousy
movie, but it's better for history to

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realize it takes organization, planning,
plumbing, a lot of logistics. It's

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Ulysses as Grant building an army,
and it should never be Ulysses as Grant's

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war. But Charlie is I almost
give him a pass. But I don't

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want anyone to think that you get
a congressman, a couple of CIA guys

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and you whip together a war.
So that's a part where and I understand

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why Hollywood went down that way.
But Charlie, for example, one of

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the things that he had in his
office was a Stinger missile hanging over the

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door. Charlie was opposed to putting
this Stinger in so to Afghanistan because I

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think he was told by those in
power, so to speak, going to

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cause World War three, and he
was a company guy and said, we

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don't need the Stinger, and the
people the agency said they did as well.

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And so that was a critical aspect
of the war. And I think

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Charlie wasn't on board. He quickly
once it was used, couldn't be more

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supportive. Sure, so Charlie had
a role for sure, but it wasn't

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his war. And yeah, I
have to ask to before we move on

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to the next thing. But tell
us about this dinner with Sean Connery.

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How did that come about? And
what was that? Like? You know,

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James Bond meeting a real spot.
I was aloud to give a talk.

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A friend of mine has property in
the Bahamas and Sean Connery lives there,

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so he was one of the stars
of the club, right, So

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he was in the audience, knew, we knew he was going to be

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there, and the host invited me
and Sean Connery said beside me through dinner.

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So the first time I came across
showing Connery, I was sitting in

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a restaurant in London. I happened
to be in London at that time,

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and Pat was with me, my
wife, and the head of the British

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Service was there with his wife,
and Sean Connery came in. You have

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to see somebody like that come into
a restaurant. The whole place flutters right.

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Everybody's gigging, including our wives.
Now I didn't do it. The

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brit did it. I'm standing by
that story to this thing. He said,

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why are you so enthused? We're
the real thing. I would never

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say that, right. They start
giggling and laughing and turned and said,

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there's the real thing. So when
I went down to the Bahamas, I

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thought it was a great story.
I told that story. He didn't laugh,

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but afterwards he was really a delightful. But what's funny is in the

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movies he's a Brit through and through
and the Queen's servant. Right. He's

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a Scotsman. He's opposed to monarchy. He was part of the Scottish independence.

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I raised it. That's what I
learned what the real story was,

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because he was pushing back on us
about Scotland. Oh okay, Sean,

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okay. But it was a delightful, delightful actor. And he was self

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contained by that. I mean he
saw himself as another person and there was

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no pretensions about him, and it
was really a treat to be with.

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So I don't mind being identified with
Sean Connery. Was he at all?

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You know? Curious about the CIA, about your time, the CIA,

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about how you know the Sean Connor
or the James Bond story matched with what

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you know. No one ever asked
me that, and I didn't go on

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to me at the time. We
didn't talk about We talked about his movies,

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which one did you like best?
And not? Because he was currently

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Go Anywhere? And I'm now hesitating
thinking why not? And I think because

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maybe he wasn't interested in actually the
Lea Coree George Smiley part, although we

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could have had in retrospect, because
I was more interested in hearing from him

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than him for me, just because
well I don't know why, because he's

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a star and I'm Jack divine.
So it would have been an interesting,

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interesting discussion because I was involved a
lot of COVID action, which runs up

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against the type of activities Bond was
involved in, as opposed to the espionage

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of George Smiling age I was involved
in as well. So I wish we

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had a second dinner because that would
have been really interesting. But I was

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sort of excited, sure, not
like on the people in the restaurant.

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I think he played that no offense
to any other I thought he was he

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was for me. The James Bond, Yeah, if you wanted to look

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I mean it just very classy,
natural class like carry grant. They just

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had that ability to carry themselves in
a way that you know, you got

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respect from it. I'm curious,
you know, it's just kind of hypothetical

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on my end, but I'm curious
if the reason that you were you were

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curious about him and he wasn't that
curious about you, is the reason he

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was a movie star and you were
an intelligence officer. Yeah, so you

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like to analyze that. Yeah,
sometimes, but but you know, like

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like being curious about other people obviously
helps you in your line of work now,

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I think, But I want to
be clearer, it wasn't because of

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an ego issue. Sure he would
have gone wherever we wanted to go,

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and uh and I would have as
well. It was actually a bit like

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the conversation we're having today. I
pretended he wasn't showing Connery, and I

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pretended I was object the line,
right, So it was. But the

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reason I didn't think about it because
I didn't think about it in that context.

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There's a kind of a fun moment
un moment. It wasn't a substance

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of Yeah, but it's it's an
interesting I think I agree with your analysis

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that in that regard. Yeah,
do you feel as though because you know,

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the CIA is often portrayed as the
sort of big bad in a lot

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of movies. You know this this
organization or people within an organization behind the

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scenes pulling strings or conducting these off
the book ops. Do you feel as

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though that hurts the CIA at all? No, I think it adds to

208
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the mystique. I mean, be
honest with you. I mean there's by

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power. Now you can convert that
into real power. And by that,

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I mean that image is very helpful
abroad. You're representing you, you're working

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for the CIA. They're assuming way
way too much. Right, you got

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back foots over fences. Yeah,
you have hit teams in every European city.

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When I when you mix it up
what I would call the day to

214
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day people to make this country run. If you pull them aside, they

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say, you know, go do
more. In other words, they have

216
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no idea that like fifteen lawyers holding
me back. Right, But there was

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I think in America, I understand
what you're saying, and we've gone there's

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a new period. Now I'm going
to leave. I'm leaving the last fifteen

219
00:17:33.200 --> 00:17:40.240
years aside for a moment but I
think there was great support for the agency

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despite the critiques. And you know, frankly, I told you the beginning.

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I joined CIA because there was a
scandalous book and I read it and

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had the opposite reaction. And I
think American assumed they know CIA is helping

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defend this gun. They really get
it, and they know that tough things

224
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have to be done, and it
has to be done, and so they're

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now does the intelligentsia sign up to
it? And it's a good mix.

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So I don't think it's it's tarnished
it. I think in the recent years,

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and I don't want to get into
the politics of it, we can

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moorward like much of TV could be
boring, and that is the politicization of

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intelligence has sorted to turn people,
Okay, I'm a Democrat or I'm a

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Republican, in therefore I'm with or
not the CIA. The CIA must remain

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independent. It has to be nonpartisan. It can't function because it's only job

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is to look at things concretely.
So I think it's I think we've had

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some rough times lately and so you
may there may be some tarnishing of it,

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But I still think if I don't
want to pick on Kansas. You

235
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go out to Kansas and sit down
the bar and say what do you think

236
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of Cia? Hey, I'd like
to join. Yeah, I'm going to

237
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tell you a story for a second
about this. So a nine to eleven

238
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game. I have a great doctor, a great doctor, best degrees,

239
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head of the department. And I
didn't I Halrady knew him at that time.

240
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And he had looked at in New
York Orth the Repeaty Garret. He

241
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was looking at my knee and Pat
said, see the fellow there, I

242
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think that's your doctor. Well I
didn't seem Pat's always on the lookout for

243
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to protect me and and none,
and behold it was my doctor. And

244
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he came over and it said,
Jack, I think you can use me.

245
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I said, what do you mean
could use it? I think I

246
00:19:26.519 --> 00:19:32.720
could be a sniper. Now this
is his mother must have spent every penny

247
00:19:32.799 --> 00:19:36.839
she had to make him not a
doctor, a big time doctor. And

248
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at age fifty he's going to get
up in a tree. Right. I

249
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mean it's like that's a different part
of America. Yeah, okay, yeah,

250
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And in nine to eleven brought a
lot of that out. Yeah,

251
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And so it's there and so uh
and I'm kind of proud of me.

252
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Fortunately, I said to him,
Look, I think the window of opportunity.

253
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I'm trying to help his mother the
best syd Right. I don't want

254
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to call me up and said what
did you do? So, but I

255
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thought the sentiment was interesting. I
mean that the god and country, uh,

256
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our country was attacked. No ambiguity
about that, right, count me

257
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in. And a lot of people
were drawn to the agency. I think

258
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they probably you'd spike in talent at
that time. Yeah, you want to

259
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jump into the yeah, absolutely.
Well. One other question, just while

260
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we're on Hollywood is when we had
Johnna Barker on the Chief of Disguise,

261
00:20:30.920 --> 00:20:37.559
like we talked of I'm sorry,
Jonah Mendez, I'm so sorry, Yes,

262
00:20:37.680 --> 00:20:40.359
Jonah Mendez, the Chief of Disguise. You know, she talked about

263
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the agency and how they worked with
Hollywood at times, you know, for

264
00:20:44.599 --> 00:20:47.920
special effects, you know, for
things like that. But you know you

265
00:20:47.960 --> 00:20:52.880
had mentioned that like Iran, like
there there have been times when the agency

266
00:20:52.880 --> 00:20:59.319
in Hollywood have had a relationship,
some sort of relationship. I think that's

267
00:20:59.359 --> 00:21:03.680
a matter of right. I think
the classic example, I'm not sure how

268
00:21:03.720 --> 00:21:06.920
deep it is defer the horror on
that because she was in charge of that

269
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program. I'm only thinking of disguise. I mean, you can't do a

270
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lot with me now. Jane said, well, we'll do something with you.

271
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But I remember one of my colleagues
was trying out the mustache. He

272
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didn't go to her, right,
and he actually went out and had soup

273
00:21:22.680 --> 00:21:26.680
and it was the steam it was
sliding off. But it was a training

274
00:21:26.720 --> 00:21:30.400
program, right. So but what
happened in the Iran contraver is they wanted

275
00:21:30.440 --> 00:21:33.480
to sneak people out of the country, right, and there's a lot you

276
00:21:33.559 --> 00:21:38.799
can do. And so the issue
was they went to Hollywood, who were

277
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masters today. Look at Hollywood and
it's ability to change someone who looks like

278
00:21:44.759 --> 00:21:47.119
they're fourteen years old and they show
you the end of the movie at eighty

279
00:21:47.119 --> 00:21:52.359
five and they're able to transform them
to the magic of it. They weren't

280
00:21:52.720 --> 00:21:57.240
as far as they are far advanced
today as they are eighty five or six.

281
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So I think they went out to
Hollywood. And again some would say,

282
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well, Hollywood actors don't like CIA. They couldn't have been more help.

283
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My experience with actors, Sean Connery
is the only it's not like I

284
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hang out with Hollywood people, but
you just run into them, and they

285
00:22:15.920 --> 00:22:19.720
also are very supportive. They might
be opposed to policies, but as if

286
00:22:19.720 --> 00:22:22.240
we can help, they did everything
they could to make it. In fact,

287
00:22:22.359 --> 00:22:30.119
much of American business and CI is
very fortunate that it's a good ticket.

288
00:22:30.160 --> 00:22:33.200
You go out and say, can
you help me, you know,

289
00:22:33.279 --> 00:22:37.200
tell me this about your trip to
China, or you know, can you

290
00:22:37.240 --> 00:22:41.079
help me with the device, or
can you give me the sky's capabilities?

291
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And you know, the agency,
if it was on its own, it

292
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didn't have that support, it'd be
a much tougher hoe. At the beginning

293
00:22:48.440 --> 00:22:53.079
of the CI, for the first
thirty years they did everything inside. It'd

294
00:22:53.079 --> 00:22:59.119
be impossible. Technology we made our
own devices and down in the basement.

295
00:23:00.039 --> 00:23:03.839
World has moved so quickly that you
need external help, and not just Hollywood's

296
00:23:03.079 --> 00:23:07.359
Yeah, yeah, it's it's uh, it's fascinating. I mean, you

297
00:23:07.359 --> 00:23:11.480
know, even talk about like DS
and T it's fascinating how you know they

298
00:23:11.519 --> 00:23:15.920
at one point in time, we're
creating everything and now like technology moves so

299
00:23:15.119 --> 00:23:21.200
fast that you need you need uh
yeah, privasiness, you need the business.

300
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Yeah. So in terms of the
book Good Hunting, which uh,

301
00:23:26.960 --> 00:23:30.160
you know is is your your autobiography. Basically, at least your time in

302
00:23:30.279 --> 00:23:36.200
the agency. We got up to
like, like I said, a third

303
00:23:36.440 --> 00:23:38.440
the way through, and I kind
of wanted to like pick up on some

304
00:23:38.480 --> 00:23:44.279
of the pieces that we didn't have
an opportunity to get to. You went

305
00:23:44.839 --> 00:23:48.680
you. You eventually became head of
counter Narcotics. Can you tell us about

306
00:23:48.720 --> 00:23:51.960
that time and the war the agencies
were on drugs, America's War on drugs.

307
00:23:52.039 --> 00:23:56.799
Basically I was in Rome at the
time and I've been there two years.

308
00:23:56.880 --> 00:24:00.839
I wanted to stay three. But
the head of the Counter Narcotics Unit

309
00:24:02.039 --> 00:24:03.960
it was set up when it was
set up as well, named Howard Hart,

310
00:24:04.400 --> 00:24:11.599
and they just started to develop these
centers and not to get too bureaucratic

311
00:24:11.640 --> 00:24:17.240
with the audience, the agency was
many stovefights, right, but because of

312
00:24:17.400 --> 00:24:22.400
terrorism and narcotics that were international,
so you had to build organizations that had

313
00:24:22.440 --> 00:24:26.400
analysts, operators, different skills.
You do the same thing on task worce

314
00:24:26.480 --> 00:24:32.200
like Afghanistan, but when you get
these international problems, you make them bigger.

315
00:24:32.640 --> 00:24:36.480
So it was a very exciting thing. And when had happened at that

316
00:24:36.559 --> 00:24:40.079
point, the Cold War had come
to an end. I mean it was

317
00:24:41.279 --> 00:24:48.079
virtually at the end. It was
nineteen when I took over, nineteen ninety,

318
00:24:48.400 --> 00:24:55.559
ninety one, ninety two overs ninety
so at that point it was Judge

319
00:24:55.559 --> 00:25:00.279
Webster, the director's number one tasks. The building. The cold door was

320
00:25:00.319 --> 00:25:03.640
over. Yeah, eighty nine.
The wall came down. The wall came

321
00:25:03.720 --> 00:25:10.079
down, but gerbertrov was still in
power. So my mind, it came

322
00:25:10.119 --> 00:25:14.599
to an end in ninety not the
split hairs, but when it fell in

323
00:25:14.599 --> 00:25:26.960
in August of ninety one. So
the well, I don't know, yeah,

324
00:25:26.000 --> 00:25:30.559
yeah. And the war on drugs
and how did they there's a number

325
00:25:30.599 --> 00:25:34.240
three target. I wanted to say
that, and Nancy Reggie and said no,

326
00:25:34.920 --> 00:25:37.920
and you know, everyone said,
well that was too simple, but

327
00:25:38.640 --> 00:25:44.799
it was a slogan. And what
had happened there's the drugs had moved into

328
00:25:44.839 --> 00:25:48.920
suburban and it was a nationwide problem. So there's a long story if you

329
00:25:48.960 --> 00:25:52.680
want to ask a lot of other
aspects of it. But it became a

330
00:25:52.759 --> 00:25:56.160
target and when I was in Rome, they asked me to come back and

331
00:25:56.160 --> 00:25:59.000
take it over because Howard Hart I
said to Rome, said I think you

332
00:25:59.000 --> 00:26:02.319
should go, and I said,
okay. Or if they wanted to let

333
00:26:02.359 --> 00:26:07.240
me know what's the CIA's roleing counter
drugs, because obviously we have the Drug

334
00:26:07.359 --> 00:26:11.799
Enforcement Agency and all of these other
bureaucracies that deal with this particular issue,

335
00:26:11.400 --> 00:26:15.720
whereas the agency has sort of a
different mandate. Right. Well, if

336
00:26:15.720 --> 00:26:18.200
you go back to the beginning,
the CIA and the FBI did not want

337
00:26:18.240 --> 00:26:23.039
to do drugs. Both had the
same reason that when you get in close,

338
00:26:25.000 --> 00:26:30.839
there's a possibility that you'll get content, your officers will become suborn,

339
00:26:30.119 --> 00:26:37.079
right, so there's a risk in
it. And it's for the CIA,

340
00:26:37.200 --> 00:26:42.680
it's criminal activity as opposed to political
military. So it was not an easy

341
00:26:42.799 --> 00:26:47.079
mix. So because they were so
slow at it, they created a new

342
00:26:47.119 --> 00:26:52.200
agency, THEA, and they drafted
people from FBI and CIA, and you

343
00:26:52.240 --> 00:26:57.960
know that's rather drastic, but the
budgets hadn't caught up. But once the

344
00:26:59.000 --> 00:27:03.160
budgets, because it became so important, we're flowing all of a sudden,

345
00:27:03.240 --> 00:27:10.319
the army, the Navy decided we'd
chase with submarines speed boat with fifty pounds

346
00:27:10.400 --> 00:27:15.079
of marijuana on it. So the
every agency then got involved in it.

347
00:27:15.759 --> 00:27:21.599
And then I think the CIA for
its part, the CIA for its part

348
00:27:22.160 --> 00:27:26.400
thought well, we'll bring the intelligence
business into it. And the reason I

349
00:27:26.440 --> 00:27:30.680
can't say I was honestly excited about
the idea for the same reason that it

350
00:27:30.680 --> 00:27:33.799
doesn't feel like espionage. It doesn't
feel like covert action. But it was

351
00:27:33.880 --> 00:27:37.720
cover action, big time cover action. But I couldn't see that. I

352
00:27:37.759 --> 00:27:42.799
didn't see the magic of the intelligence
revolution that was in it. What does

353
00:27:42.839 --> 00:27:48.599
that all mean? When I came
to I saw all this energy of mixing

354
00:27:48.680 --> 00:27:55.519
analysts and operators, people from other
Not only did I have both a mixture

355
00:27:55.519 --> 00:27:59.839
of people from CIA, I had
a community of twenty or thirty people from

356
00:28:00.000 --> 00:28:03.599
other agencies who were sitting there right
with me, doing a community. And

357
00:28:03.640 --> 00:28:08.559
then, as you said, there
were seventeen agencies, but nobody wanted in

358
00:28:08.640 --> 00:28:14.480
the director of operations PCs in those
states. They didn't want computers, right,

359
00:28:15.119 --> 00:28:18.799
And because the risk, right,
the security risk, the people that

360
00:28:18.880 --> 00:28:25.880
needed the most resisted, right.
So they resissisted the secure phones because you

361
00:28:25.880 --> 00:28:29.559
know, internationally, who would keep
a record of the bad things you're doing.

362
00:28:30.200 --> 00:28:33.519
But what I found is if you're
doing a target narcotics and having the

363
00:28:33.559 --> 00:28:41.920
ability to linkage analogy analysis through computers, counting all the integrating information, bringing

364
00:28:41.920 --> 00:28:45.880
that computer working for instead of index
cards. We began to develop a really

365
00:28:47.000 --> 00:28:52.240
good understanding of all the different narcotic
traffickers and they could say on the phone,

366
00:28:52.240 --> 00:28:55.559
I'm bringing three oranges. You know
it's three something, but you're mixing

367
00:28:55.680 --> 00:29:00.519
up with the travel. It became
a powerful tool and it was infancy.

368
00:29:00.559 --> 00:29:04.039
And then the second thing was a
strategy. There were two other aspects of

369
00:29:06.039 --> 00:29:11.200
cut me off whenever you're there are
two other strategic aspects. Two other aspects

370
00:29:11.200 --> 00:29:15.759
of this. One is the strategic
one that goes to the seventeen. So

371
00:29:18.039 --> 00:29:21.440
I like to approach things strategically,
and I wanted to do it on this

372
00:29:21.480 --> 00:29:26.000
one. They have an executive dining
room and that was for people that were

373
00:29:26.559 --> 00:29:30.799
flag rank officers, and you could
go there and have lunch, and it

374
00:29:30.839 --> 00:29:36.480
was subsidized, so you could have
a restaurant type lunch and you'd be at

375
00:29:36.640 --> 00:29:40.519
at very low price. And you're
wondering why I'm getting into that. I

376
00:29:40.559 --> 00:29:45.319
invited seventeen different people to come eat
lunch, and I couldn't afford it with

377
00:29:45.400 --> 00:29:48.119
my family. I really couldn't because
I had five kids at the time,

378
00:29:48.200 --> 00:29:51.880
and so I'm not like, it's
not like a businessman inviting area, but

379
00:29:52.039 --> 00:29:56.920
it was an opportunity to bring them
out, and one by one I tried

380
00:29:56.960 --> 00:30:00.720
to get them to buy into a
single strategy, which was instead going after

381
00:30:00.799 --> 00:30:03.279
one country, we would go up
and down the chain. And it became

382
00:30:03.319 --> 00:30:07.119
known as sort of the linear approach
to it. And Judge Bonder, who

383
00:30:07.119 --> 00:30:11.480
I got along very well with Deea, brought on to it. There would

384
00:30:11.480 --> 00:30:15.599
not have been a program without him. But he also wanted the kingpins,

385
00:30:15.000 --> 00:30:18.319
and so we brought the two together. One was how we were going to

386
00:30:18.319 --> 00:30:23.880
attack it and go after the kingpins, Pablo Escobar, the Calie cartel.

387
00:30:25.720 --> 00:30:30.000
The other thing, which is revolutionary. And again this may be inside baseball,

388
00:30:30.640 --> 00:30:34.000
but in the intelligence world up until
that time, you were minimalist.

389
00:30:34.119 --> 00:30:38.759
You gave liaison your foreign counterparts the
least you needed to give them to keep

390
00:30:38.799 --> 00:30:44.519
them happy. And countries, powerful
countries today would have to come to say

391
00:30:44.559 --> 00:30:47.759
we need actuators. You probably don't
know what it is, but it's a

392
00:30:47.799 --> 00:30:51.000
way the tap phones. The old
days, right, they couldn't buy it

393
00:30:51.039 --> 00:30:52.880
anywhere. Today they can get satellites, right, and they can buy these

394
00:30:53.119 --> 00:30:59.759
information. So there was a reluctance
to give. You cannot do counter tourism.

395
00:31:00.079 --> 00:31:04.359
You can't do counter narcotics, you
can't do proliferation without foreigners. There

396
00:31:04.359 --> 00:31:08.160
were many people in CIA for a
generations felt let's do it on our own.

397
00:31:08.400 --> 00:31:12.359
We'll have the aison just to keep
everybody happy, but we'll do it

398
00:31:12.400 --> 00:31:18.440
our own. We can't, and
then you shouldn't. So it became we're

399
00:31:18.480 --> 00:31:23.000
going to give counter narcotics people tools
to do it. We're going to give

400
00:31:23.039 --> 00:31:26.559
them training. Instead of minimalists,
we're going to bring them as much as

401
00:31:26.599 --> 00:31:33.240
we can. So in the counter
narcotics program, there was an officer who

402
00:31:33.240 --> 00:31:36.400
came up with the idea of calling
them scening. They would develop units in

403
00:31:36.440 --> 00:31:41.319
each country. Once you run the
police force, it's very likely someone would

404
00:31:41.319 --> 00:31:42.920
come up and say, you either
look the other way or you're not going

405
00:31:44.000 --> 00:31:45.240
to be around, and we'll give
you two hundred dollars a week not to

406
00:31:45.319 --> 00:31:48.720
do that, right, So you're
corrupted. So they would pull units out

407
00:31:48.759 --> 00:31:56.720
of the academy, give them computer
training, signals training, make them really

408
00:31:56.960 --> 00:32:02.200
quality intelligence collectors, integrators, and
tie it into our capabilities. That was

409
00:32:02.279 --> 00:32:07.279
revolutionary, and the same thing was
happening and terrorism. Terrorism probably actually started

410
00:32:07.319 --> 00:32:10.079
earlier in this. So when I
was sitting there. I was looking at

411
00:32:10.119 --> 00:32:15.319
as a narcotics problem, but I
was also looking at a revolution in the

412
00:32:15.319 --> 00:32:20.319
intelligence business. How it was going
to look everywhere, you know, ten

413
00:32:20.400 --> 00:32:27.200
years out the big problem again stop. But on the counter narcotics program.

414
00:32:27.519 --> 00:32:31.960
I remember the deputy director's name was. His name is Richard Kerr, and

415
00:32:32.039 --> 00:32:35.480
we were talking one day and he
said, Jack, you have to remember

416
00:32:36.240 --> 00:32:42.720
the counter narctics counter narcotics program is
a criminal program. It's never going to

417
00:32:42.720 --> 00:32:45.559
go away. You just take a
stick and you beat it and you try

418
00:32:45.599 --> 00:32:49.000
and keep it off the front steps, but it's coming back. And I

419
00:32:49.000 --> 00:32:52.839
think that's what you have to realize. And it's frustrating. So Pablo Escobar

420
00:32:52.599 --> 00:32:58.359
in the book, some of the
people to help do the calling for me

421
00:32:58.440 --> 00:33:01.759
with people in the agency called the
chief who went down the was going down

422
00:33:01.759 --> 00:33:06.160
to Columbia and they interviewed him about
me, and he said, well,

423
00:33:06.559 --> 00:33:09.200
what I know is when I was
walking out the door, he said,

424
00:33:10.359 --> 00:33:15.079
you know, any last advice and
I said, get Pablo Esco war So

425
00:33:15.599 --> 00:33:17.799
uh so he did. I mean
when I say he did, it's like

426
00:33:19.559 --> 00:33:24.200
Charlie Wilson right right, a big
effort. And at that time people didn't

427
00:33:24.200 --> 00:33:27.799
think you could yet, because they
put him in jail and he would you

428
00:33:27.799 --> 00:33:30.480
know, hit cocktail parties at night
and went out whatever he did on the

429
00:33:30.519 --> 00:33:36.559
wild out through the tunnel. But
you know, those units that I'm talking

430
00:33:36.599 --> 00:33:40.160
about allowed you to actually find him
and he was on the phone too long

431
00:33:42.400 --> 00:33:45.240
with his son and they got him. They found him and then he ran

432
00:33:45.319 --> 00:33:49.640
off the roof and running across the
roof and you know they found them in

433
00:33:50.519 --> 00:33:52.920
That was the end of Pablo Escobar, but it was they would never been

434
00:33:52.920 --> 00:34:00.599
able to do that without more sophisticated
intelligence, intelligence escapeable How How what was

435
00:34:00.640 --> 00:34:06.920
the release? Because the CIA is
set up in like divisions right area like

436
00:34:07.160 --> 00:34:10.480
area divisions or generally that's how you
when you talk about the stove pipes.

437
00:34:10.880 --> 00:34:15.800
How does a center that reaches across
those divisions? Was there any rough times

438
00:34:15.880 --> 00:34:21.119
like working with the different divisions as
a center? Well, I think I

439
00:34:21.119 --> 00:34:23.840
think I should go through the process. You need to, you need to

440
00:34:23.880 --> 00:34:32.000
anticipate that two experiences on this and
creating one. When was the Afghan task

441
00:34:32.079 --> 00:34:37.400
for us and I was more junior
and I was called up to talk to

442
00:34:37.519 --> 00:34:40.679
case one on one and what did
I need because we were going to build

443
00:34:40.719 --> 00:34:45.559
a program right, And I thought, I have to get this out of

444
00:34:45.599 --> 00:34:49.119
the rest of the division, the
divisions. Do I want to the rest

445
00:34:49.119 --> 00:34:52.559
of my life be the most hated
guy because you couldn't send me. We

446
00:34:52.559 --> 00:34:55.840
weren't. You weren't allowed to send
a D officer D level. You had

447
00:34:55.880 --> 00:35:00.440
to send a B plus or an
A. You weren't allowed to do this.

448
00:35:00.559 --> 00:35:05.039
So you're going into divisions where that's
hard and you have to kick in

449
00:35:05.119 --> 00:35:07.800
people. That's not a popular road. So I tried to pet what could

450
00:35:07.840 --> 00:35:12.880
I do within this primary? What
was the right number? Right? So

451
00:35:13.000 --> 00:35:17.000
let's say, for Matt's sake,
I said one hundred and never forget a

452
00:35:17.119 --> 00:35:21.599
casey thing. They were you sure
that's all you need? It was a

453
00:35:21.679 --> 00:35:24.400
really good question because of the business
man. He was to give me two

454
00:35:24.480 --> 00:35:28.599
hundred and fifty and I'll make this
thing right. But I'm trying to what

455
00:35:28.639 --> 00:35:32.719
can I get without having a revolution
and having people to participate, And I

456
00:35:32.760 --> 00:35:36.360
think we didn't get the two fifty. We've got up quite a bit.

457
00:35:36.800 --> 00:35:43.840
Fast forward. When I got to
the counter narcotics program, I came in,

458
00:35:45.639 --> 00:35:51.960
we developed a new plan, bigger
budget things are coming and Bob Gates

459
00:35:52.079 --> 00:35:55.119
was the director at the time,
and I remember this. I know it

460
00:35:55.159 --> 00:35:58.920
wasn't trying to be like Angleton because
it was quite different. It was open

461
00:35:58.920 --> 00:36:01.800
and everywhere, but he was We
sat for a while because he was downtown.

462
00:36:02.199 --> 00:36:05.440
But we came in. There was
a room with just one light,

463
00:36:05.480 --> 00:36:09.079
and Bob sat down and my deputy, who was the strategic planner in terms

464
00:36:09.159 --> 00:36:13.519
of what we needed. So Bob
came in, sat down, and you

465
00:36:13.559 --> 00:36:16.079
have to understand the management of time
at that level numbers. He's not going

466
00:36:16.119 --> 00:36:20.000
to ask me about how the kids
doing. You can with Bob when you're

467
00:36:20.039 --> 00:36:22.760
traveling, but when he's just come
from the hill and he's gone somewhere,

468
00:36:22.760 --> 00:36:28.400
he's got this meeting. Every second
counts. So Bob's sitting there. We

469
00:36:28.440 --> 00:36:31.239
give what we think is a great
brief and he said thank you. We

470
00:36:31.280 --> 00:36:35.000
walked out, looked at each other. Oh God, all that work.

471
00:36:35.719 --> 00:36:37.960
We got a call from the staff
chief the next day. You've got the

472
00:36:38.000 --> 00:36:44.719
numb you've got the numbers, so
uh that dynamic. Then you have to

473
00:36:45.119 --> 00:36:50.079
you have to pull together, and
there is tension. I worry a bit.

474
00:36:51.119 --> 00:36:55.880
I'm being a little more kind than
I might want to be. We've

475
00:36:55.920 --> 00:37:00.280
now gone to center rizing so many
things so that when you have a crisis,

476
00:37:00.320 --> 00:37:06.320
when you're pulling your everybody together the
best. So I think we've now

477
00:37:07.559 --> 00:37:12.199
there's there's there's a reason to have
some specialists of a Russian and African and

478
00:37:12.239 --> 00:37:16.519
they you really need that depth and
when you start to homogenize. And then

479
00:37:16.559 --> 00:37:21.400
they had this expression when I was
in mid career, you have to have

480
00:37:21.440 --> 00:37:27.519
an out of body experience and that
meant let's say you're linguist in Spanish or

481
00:37:27.719 --> 00:37:30.800
French and they would say, well, you have to go to Indonesia for

482
00:37:30.800 --> 00:37:36.400
a year Indonesian. It's like,
yeah, that's interesting, but you really

483
00:37:36.440 --> 00:37:39.480
need me as a real linguist and
expert. And I remember talking to a

484
00:37:39.519 --> 00:37:46.239
fellow who had a fluent French and
you just came out of the training r

485
00:37:46.320 --> 00:37:50.039
So we're gonna well, they're gonna
send me to Spain. Well, send

486
00:37:50.039 --> 00:37:52.000
me to Spain well because they want
me to be more diverse because you have

487
00:37:52.119 --> 00:37:58.760
the Spanish. And it was someone's
missing the point right right, that is

488
00:37:58.960 --> 00:38:02.280
there's a lot to be said for
being identified. I am at this type

489
00:38:02.280 --> 00:38:07.159
of expert. So I think we
have to be careful and I think the

490
00:38:07.320 --> 00:38:10.440
terrorism. There was no choice.
This is not a critique, This is

491
00:38:10.480 --> 00:38:17.280
an observation. When we're fighting wars
for twenty years and your intelligence is supporting

492
00:38:17.320 --> 00:38:21.920
it, you need to bring targets. You need to be focusing in on

493
00:38:22.119 --> 00:38:29.480
how do you attack targets, so
your information is collected differently, and you

494
00:38:29.599 --> 00:38:35.840
have to in that process need to
make sure that you keep those identities of

495
00:38:36.119 --> 00:38:42.159
area geopolitical understandings. I don't want
to tell good hunting, but I'm pleased

496
00:38:42.199 --> 00:38:47.239
with where I ended the book,
which is terrorism is as we know with

497
00:38:47.280 --> 00:38:51.320
al Qaeda, they're still around,
right and I knew they would be around,

498
00:38:51.360 --> 00:38:53.760
And it's like criminality, and we've
had it and I faced it in

499
00:38:53.800 --> 00:38:59.440
the seventies, and that it was
pretty big in Europe. Nowhere near as

500
00:38:58.599 --> 00:39:04.519
scary, trust me, but that
there was we were looking at a phase

501
00:39:04.519 --> 00:39:08.280
where we were heading south with terrorism, but was coming back was the Nation

502
00:39:08.480 --> 00:39:15.239
States, and that meant we were
gonna be with Russia China, and I

503
00:39:15.239 --> 00:39:19.360
think there was a lot of skepticism
about that. Our budgets weren't matching what

504
00:39:19.400 --> 00:39:25.119
I was asking for because at that
point the investment of the the funds for

505
00:39:27.599 --> 00:39:32.400
Russia was Soviet Union was seventy percent, and by the time we're writing the

506
00:39:32.400 --> 00:39:37.480
book, it's ten percent. But
and then when I wrote spy Man for

507
00:39:37.719 --> 00:39:40.000
Prison, as I said, I
wrote it a year or two early.

508
00:39:40.800 --> 00:39:45.840
And my best critiques from the from
the agency folks that I know, Oh

509
00:39:45.880 --> 00:39:51.679
it's all about China, right,
So you know, my point is you've

510
00:39:51.719 --> 00:39:57.599
gone from not having nation states where
today it's Russia, China, Iran,

511
00:39:57.840 --> 00:40:04.039
North Korea. Yes, terrorism by
it's terrorism Hamas almost from a nation state

512
00:40:04.119 --> 00:40:07.320
basic right, right, So we're
in a new world. We're heading in

513
00:40:07.360 --> 00:40:10.880
another direction, which we you know, we'll touch on later. Do you

514
00:40:14.239 --> 00:40:17.559
I know that like during for instance, the Iraq War, the you know,

515
00:40:17.800 --> 00:40:22.480
the station in bag Guy was very
big, and a lot of agency

516
00:40:22.519 --> 00:40:29.559
personnel were not happy with their with
like their role in the war. That

517
00:40:29.599 --> 00:40:31.960
they didn't feel like that was where
the CIA should be active, that that

518
00:40:32.119 --> 00:40:38.480
was a military and a military intelligence
war, and and the CIA was getting

519
00:40:38.480 --> 00:40:43.920
the emphasis wrong. What are your
opinions on that or if you have any

520
00:40:44.760 --> 00:40:47.360
I have an opinion and everything I
don't. It doesn't mean wisdom or anything

521
00:40:47.400 --> 00:40:51.320
else, but I've got an opinion. But at this a long time and

522
00:40:51.360 --> 00:40:53.360
I feel that's why I write the
books. I mean, it's not trust

523
00:40:53.400 --> 00:40:57.119
me. I'm not making a living
off of that. I wouldn't have been

524
00:40:57.119 --> 00:41:01.840
able to take the uber over,
you know, I'm a ride. So

525
00:41:02.719 --> 00:41:07.760
there was There's been a through the
early years, the formative years of the

526
00:41:07.800 --> 00:41:13.079
agency, and this goes back to
the movies, and it's the foreign intelligence

527
00:41:13.079 --> 00:41:20.960
collection versus covert action. And at
the beginning, the emphasis was on covert

528
00:41:21.000 --> 00:41:23.280
action. They're coming out of World
War two ohs, satisfighting the rush,

529
00:41:23.320 --> 00:41:27.360
a lot of covert action, and
then as you moved on, became the

530
00:41:27.360 --> 00:41:35.000
predominance of a foreign intelligence When you
would hit into the eighties late eighties,

531
00:41:35.039 --> 00:41:38.440
I would say ninety percent of the
officers would prefer, if not more,

532
00:41:39.119 --> 00:41:42.719
just give me a fly, don't
give me, don't me give me.

533
00:41:43.000 --> 00:41:45.440
It all blows up, right,
you know. And I actually spent more

534
00:41:45.440 --> 00:41:49.280
time because I was interested in One
of the reason I got into the agency

535
00:41:49.400 --> 00:41:52.519
was the action part. But there
is a price because you will read about

536
00:41:52.519 --> 00:41:55.719
it. You better love what you're
doing because you're going to read about it,

537
00:41:55.760 --> 00:41:59.480
and you're going to be writing about
talking that for years to come,

538
00:41:59.519 --> 00:42:05.519
and hopefully it's right. But it's
that one clause in the charter the CIA,

539
00:42:06.639 --> 00:42:09.800
you will carry out those special activities
directed by the President of the United

540
00:42:09.840 --> 00:42:15.519
States. What I'm saying is there
was a reaction against getting involved, and

541
00:42:19.599 --> 00:42:22.039
many people there was actually a group
as late as nineteen ninety were talking about

542
00:42:22.119 --> 00:42:25.719
let's go out to West Virginia and
we'll be just spying. And I said,

543
00:42:25.880 --> 00:42:30.039
goodbye, No one's ever the Senates
that were going to call the President

544
00:42:30.119 --> 00:42:31.719
is not going to go. You
have there talking to yourself. If you're

545
00:42:31.760 --> 00:42:37.519
just going to do FI foreign intelligence, you have to have the action part.

546
00:42:37.639 --> 00:42:42.519
So when you get to a rock, the targeting that support, that

547
00:42:42.599 --> 00:42:45.719
intelligence support needed to be done.
So what happened, I think a career

548
00:42:45.800 --> 00:42:50.079
service. A new group of people
had to be trained and brought into it

549
00:42:50.079 --> 00:42:52.920
had to be done. Yeah,
right, But the natural pull is I

550
00:42:52.960 --> 00:43:00.639
wanted to develop and recruit that spy
and so I understand it. But I'm

551
00:43:00.639 --> 00:43:06.519
sure people didn't want to go to
Vietnam, right, So it's and many

552
00:43:06.559 --> 00:43:10.519
people didn't want to participate in Central
America. But fortunately were enough and the

553
00:43:10.599 --> 00:43:15.559
agency you know and two expressions you
know can do and yes, sir,

554
00:43:15.639 --> 00:43:19.960
In other words, you were never
you should never ask for an assignment,

555
00:43:20.480 --> 00:43:23.800
you will be told where they go. And I was well served by that.

556
00:43:24.599 --> 00:43:29.159
You know, I think you know
you should if you're asked to go,

557
00:43:29.239 --> 00:43:35.119
and everybody I knew in the agency
expected to respond to that, and

558
00:43:34.360 --> 00:43:38.920
the world demanded that. So yes, that happens. Now. Would I

559
00:43:38.960 --> 00:43:43.920
have put an army in a rush? I wass not where I was.

560
00:43:44.599 --> 00:43:47.000
You know this from our last discussion. It was not for putting an army

561
00:43:47.000 --> 00:43:51.760
in Afghanistan if you can't get it
done with COVID action and the people supporting

562
00:43:51.800 --> 00:43:55.199
you. I'm an advocate for cover
action, I'm actually you know, but

563
00:43:55.400 --> 00:44:00.840
it's more for peace and keeping our
truths out there until we actually you know,

564
00:44:00.280 --> 00:44:05.280
we're being hit straight on, straight
on. So but once there,

565
00:44:05.760 --> 00:44:09.519
then you then you're going to carry
out the mission. You know. In

566
00:44:09.559 --> 00:44:14.480
the last show, we talked about
your involvement in COVERD Action. You've been

567
00:44:14.480 --> 00:44:17.559
involved in so many and you just
mentioned how if somebody is going to write

568
00:44:17.559 --> 00:44:23.039
about if you know a guarantee.
Yeah. You also in the book,

569
00:44:23.119 --> 00:44:28.559
which we didn't talk about last time, I talked about both the Carter administration

570
00:44:28.719 --> 00:44:35.760
and the Clinton administration in terms of
of ethics and and you know and how

571
00:44:35.840 --> 00:44:42.760
that sometimes went up against like the
c i's pragmatism when it came to their

572
00:44:42.840 --> 00:44:45.719
needs for covered action. Can you
talk about can you talk about that a

573
00:44:45.760 --> 00:44:52.039
little bit? Well, I think
there as you you know, when you

574
00:44:52.039 --> 00:44:57.559
were looking at the Carter years,
there were swings and budgets, right,

575
00:44:58.360 --> 00:45:01.880
and I remember with the slogan was
it was do more with less. There

576
00:45:02.039 --> 00:45:05.639
was the chief would say, all
the chiefs would say, we're going to

577
00:45:05.719 --> 00:45:08.280
do just as well with less.
Well, okay, but you're going to

578
00:45:08.320 --> 00:45:12.800
be less. Okay, But you
know, if you've been around long enough,

579
00:45:13.000 --> 00:45:15.119
you're soon going to be called back
to duty because there's a mission that

580
00:45:15.239 --> 00:45:21.800
has to be done. So I
remember going through the orientation program and I'm

581
00:45:21.800 --> 00:45:23.679
not going to pick up A lieutenant
colonel came in. It was a detailed

582
00:45:23.679 --> 00:45:27.480
from the military. It was very
good briefing, but he said, listen,

583
00:45:27.559 --> 00:45:30.280
you have to understand Latin Americas.
I was headed to Latin America.

584
00:45:30.360 --> 00:45:32.400
And he said, well, you
know, only dictatorship's work. He didn't

585
00:45:32.480 --> 00:45:35.960
say only, but he said,
look at this, all these dictatorships,

586
00:45:35.960 --> 00:45:40.119
the ability and coming to your point. It was pragmatic. So we didn't

587
00:45:40.119 --> 00:45:44.639
want to necessarily want them, but
they were there. They were your counterparts,

588
00:45:44.679 --> 00:45:51.800
and there was containing the the the
enemy. So this is right,

589
00:45:51.920 --> 00:45:55.679
communists and so on. But what
Jimmy Carter. Carter came in, and

590
00:45:55.719 --> 00:45:59.880
there are a lot of things that
I wasn't happy with Carter, just like

591
00:46:00.159 --> 00:46:04.960
any other president, you have things
you like and dislike. But what he

592
00:46:05.039 --> 00:46:09.960
pushed was human rights. And the
issue was you better not be dealing with

593
00:46:10.079 --> 00:46:19.159
foreign governments intelligence business and if they're
violating human rights. Right. So as

594
00:46:19.199 --> 00:46:21.599
the young person, wow, that's
going to be really hard to do.

595
00:46:22.280 --> 00:46:24.639
So I was talking to a chief
of a man I have great respect for

596
00:46:24.760 --> 00:46:29.760
Ray Warren, and he said,
Jack, I think if Jimmy Carter says

597
00:46:29.760 --> 00:46:32.719
this, it's going to revolutionize the
business and it's probably a positive thing.

598
00:46:32.960 --> 00:46:37.320
Now what did he mean? It
was absolutely true. If you looked ten

599
00:46:37.400 --> 00:46:42.079
years later, we were still in
liaison with every country in Latin America,

600
00:46:42.199 --> 00:46:45.639
but that none of them are run
by the dictators. Right now you've got

601
00:46:45.639 --> 00:46:50.719
a mix of autocrats and so on. But it wasn't predestined. But what

602
00:46:50.760 --> 00:46:53.159
we ended up doing in the first
round, people weren't happy about it.

603
00:46:53.239 --> 00:46:57.480
You went into the head of the
servant and said, look, you know

604
00:46:57.719 --> 00:47:00.880
we're not doing it with you,
but you know you're doing bad things down

605
00:47:00.880 --> 00:47:04.039
in the basement, and you know
we're not going to be able to give

606
00:47:04.079 --> 00:47:08.320
you this and help you, and
and we're going to provide help and try.

607
00:47:08.840 --> 00:47:13.679
You'd be surprised how positive that was. I mean, that wasn't welcomed

608
00:47:13.760 --> 00:47:20.960
warmly, but everybody adjusted. I
mean, America's influence is really certainly that

609
00:47:21.039 --> 00:47:23.719
timeframe overwhelming in the sense that okay, if that's what it takes to have

610
00:47:23.760 --> 00:47:29.920
a relationship, we'll put these away, right. So I think it was

611
00:47:30.440 --> 00:47:34.599
it had a very positive impact.
Most the IA people do not want to

612
00:47:34.639 --> 00:47:37.840
have to be dealing you know,
most of them are really almost all of

613
00:47:37.920 --> 00:47:43.280
them are idealistic in want to see
a better world and people treated. You

614
00:47:43.320 --> 00:47:46.119
know, no one's going outter to
be part of taking people down the basement.

615
00:47:46.159 --> 00:47:52.000
That's not you know, that's not
intelligence collection. Right, So if

616
00:47:52.079 --> 00:47:53.840
that was the issue, I would
say there was. There was tension,

617
00:47:53.880 --> 00:47:59.760
but sometimes you have to have tension
to move forward. Now there's other you

618
00:47:59.800 --> 00:48:02.360
know, today we've got a lot
of autocrats out there. We still at

619
00:48:02.360 --> 00:48:07.639
a national level forgets see, I
have to still still deal with some unsavory

620
00:48:09.440 --> 00:48:15.119
countries that are using violating human rights, right, you still need to get

621
00:48:15.159 --> 00:48:19.840
along with them. You keep saying
to them, you know, we're uncomfortable

622
00:48:19.800 --> 00:48:22.360
with this. We can't do this
with you. We can do that,

623
00:48:22.440 --> 00:48:25.360
but we're not going to do this. So it's part of the practicality of

624
00:48:25.480 --> 00:48:30.679
doing business. And you know there's
a it's a gray area. And yeah,

625
00:48:30.760 --> 00:48:35.559
you know you probably don't belong in
the state partner in CRA or Defense

626
00:48:35.639 --> 00:48:40.400
Department because it's it's impossible to function
without some of them. Try and keep

627
00:48:40.400 --> 00:48:44.880
it the minimum, try to change
it. Do you think the gospel?

628
00:48:45.000 --> 00:48:47.800
Do you think the media? Not
like I'm not talking about some kind of

629
00:48:47.800 --> 00:48:52.440
conspiracy media, but just you know, the United States deals with a lot

630
00:48:52.480 --> 00:48:59.119
of countries that violate human rights.
But sometimes if the media like starts reporting

631
00:48:59.119 --> 00:49:04.639
on one, even though their abuses
may not be more than fifteen others that

632
00:49:04.679 --> 00:49:07.400
we're dealing with. But if the
media picks up one, does that have

633
00:49:07.440 --> 00:49:13.920
a tendency to change maybe the administration
or the agency stance towards that country.

634
00:49:15.199 --> 00:49:20.320
Well, reluctantly, I got to
give the media a pass. I mean,

635
00:49:20.320 --> 00:49:22.960
they're out there trying to make it
live and they're trying to collect information.

636
00:49:22.280 --> 00:49:27.800
I mean, if they weren't you
push the old days, everything went

637
00:49:27.880 --> 00:49:32.119
under the board. It depends on
the quality the journalism, the quality of

638
00:49:32.320 --> 00:49:38.159
the seriousness of it. Right.
But if they find it, then I

639
00:49:38.159 --> 00:49:42.880
think you have to address it.
Right. But I don't think anybody sits

640
00:49:42.880 --> 00:49:45.519
around and says, well, over
here, right. I think the point

641
00:49:45.559 --> 00:49:49.199
is where stories developed. You're not
going to have a choice anyway, so

642
00:49:49.320 --> 00:49:51.280
you might as well make peace with
the fact you're going to deal with it,

643
00:49:51.400 --> 00:49:54.920
right. But if it's a legitimate
issue, then you should deal with

644
00:49:55.039 --> 00:50:02.519
Yeah. One of the things had
an experience which was a very good lesson

645
00:50:02.599 --> 00:50:08.079
for me when I was running the
Latin American Division in salvad Or. The

646
00:50:08.159 --> 00:50:13.960
Human Rights Commission wanted to talk to
us. The first reaction to the director,

647
00:50:14.039 --> 00:50:15.400
We're never going to talk to him
ever, No way, no how.

648
00:50:15.880 --> 00:50:20.800
But fortunate had a very smart fellow
who's a friend of mine, is

649
00:50:21.199 --> 00:50:25.320
a top quality analyst, and he
was my deputy as an analytical person.

650
00:50:25.320 --> 00:50:30.920
Attack. I think this is manageable
if you go in there and tell them,

651
00:50:30.599 --> 00:50:35.280
tell them the story, because we
aren't doing this or that or the

652
00:50:35.320 --> 00:50:38.480
other. If you show even a
little ankle, you might be surprised with

653
00:50:38.559 --> 00:50:43.480
you again instead of a big blasted
story. And actually he was dead right

654
00:50:44.440 --> 00:50:49.280
showing a little ankle there about talking
to them about it, not trying to

655
00:50:50.119 --> 00:50:53.480
worked out. We ended up with
a favorable relationship and not relation. We

656
00:50:53.519 --> 00:50:59.039
never had a relationship with him,
but the commission was reasonable. And I'm

657
00:50:59.079 --> 00:51:01.239
not saying you can do that everywhere, but he had sized this up,

658
00:51:01.760 --> 00:51:07.679
so you can't have a knee jerk
reaction against that interaction with doing right.

659
00:51:07.440 --> 00:51:13.079
Yeah, no, it's I mean, it's it's fascinating to me sometimes that

660
00:51:14.880 --> 00:51:16.840
even if the media knows that there's
stuff going on, like what they focus

661
00:51:16.880 --> 00:51:22.920
and again I'm not not putting blame
on them, it's just and it's not

662
00:51:22.960 --> 00:51:25.639
just the media. Sometimes it's just
sort of a zeitgeist white what people think

663
00:51:25.760 --> 00:51:30.960
is important at one particular moment,
when you know, we may know that

664
00:51:30.000 --> 00:51:32.599
the China is like doing this to
the Wagers, We may know that you

665
00:51:32.639 --> 00:51:36.880
know that these things are going on, but those aren't that important. Here's

666
00:51:36.920 --> 00:51:39.880
my issue. And I've known a
lot of journalists over the year. Yeah,

667
00:51:39.960 --> 00:51:45.880
okay, they too have become highly
politicized when they're writing the news.

668
00:51:46.199 --> 00:51:49.440
I think they're pretty good. Yeah, I think they're very good. In

669
00:51:49.440 --> 00:51:52.280
others, I think they're looking at
the news and they're going after and collecting

670
00:51:52.320 --> 00:51:55.280
it. Where we're having today when
it rubs up against politics, then it

671
00:51:55.320 --> 00:52:00.840
gets to my view, if you're
reporting about an incident yea Yemen, Yemen

672
00:52:01.800 --> 00:52:06.400
in Yemen, you will have a
good story, all right. You're going

673
00:52:06.440 --> 00:52:10.519
to have an accurate reporting story.
If it ends up being an issue with

674
00:52:10.599 --> 00:52:17.280
the Congress and this and that,
then the reporting is substandard by my view

675
00:52:17.320 --> 00:52:22.519
of what the reporting was like years
ago. And then maybe it's every aspect

676
00:52:22.559 --> 00:52:29.000
of life and the politicalization. But
newspaper newspaper people are very close to CIA

677
00:52:29.039 --> 00:52:30.960
people. They don't like to hear
that, But what are they doing?

678
00:52:30.239 --> 00:52:34.800
Who what when we're in hat go
out there and meet somebody, stick your

679
00:52:34.840 --> 00:52:37.159
neck out. I mean, look
at the journalists have been killed, kidnap.

680
00:52:38.559 --> 00:52:45.880
It's a it's very close to being
a CIA mission. Ours is a

681
00:52:45.199 --> 00:52:51.280
state national security and there's his news. There is there are friction, but

682
00:52:51.599 --> 00:52:57.559
I've had good experiences with them.
When you bring them in to a story

683
00:52:57.639 --> 00:53:02.159
and you try and you know,
don't do this, most of the national

684
00:53:02.599 --> 00:53:10.199
respected will will go along with that. So my concern today is that overlay

685
00:53:10.239 --> 00:53:15.960
of the politics syle that is in
the national security arena. In other words,

686
00:53:17.119 --> 00:53:22.360
before it wasn't it wasn't so bipolder, right, Yeah, but that's

687
00:53:22.400 --> 00:53:27.119
true in Congress, It's true in
every aspect of it. It was so

688
00:53:27.199 --> 00:53:30.960
much easier for me to do COVID
action. And in my book, I

689
00:53:31.000 --> 00:53:36.519
say here are the old theoretical theological
arguments for just war. I've added a

690
00:53:36.519 --> 00:53:39.880
couple bipartisan. If you don't have
bipartisan support, don't do it. If

691
00:53:39.880 --> 00:53:44.800
you look at it today, it
sounds like I'm saying don't do it.

692
00:53:45.559 --> 00:53:51.000
Yeah, And that's not a good
place to make you. You had an

693
00:53:51.079 --> 00:53:54.599
interesting story about when you were at
CENC about actually going to the KGB headquarters.

694
00:53:55.480 --> 00:53:59.800
H Can you talk about that?
See that was sort of a hidden

695
00:54:00.400 --> 00:54:06.320
you know, to go in the
eniti's den and walk out alive. It

696
00:54:06.360 --> 00:54:09.480
was I backed into it because that
actually, you know, I ran in

697
00:54:09.480 --> 00:54:14.679
the Afghan program and it was you
know, their their war, and it

698
00:54:14.760 --> 00:54:19.239
was a war that ended not well
for them and contributed to the downfall.

699
00:54:19.719 --> 00:54:22.440
So you would think I'd be the
last person after milk Beard and maybe that

700
00:54:22.559 --> 00:54:27.800
would be welcome. So when I
came back, when I was in the

701
00:54:27.880 --> 00:54:30.679
head of the count of Narcotics,
Milk Bearden, who was an islam about

702
00:54:30.679 --> 00:54:35.320
as the chief and they're good friends. And he was the head of Russia

703
00:54:35.360 --> 00:54:37.719
Division, you know, And he
called me one day and I always know

704
00:54:37.760 --> 00:54:42.719
when I get a call from millet's
gotta there's a deal in it. So

705
00:54:42.840 --> 00:54:46.679
mil said, look, Jack,
and I'd like it if you could come

706
00:54:46.760 --> 00:54:51.199
to Russia with me. And I
said, why would I do that?

707
00:54:51.679 --> 00:54:54.599
Why would we go there together?
He said, well, we're trying to

708
00:54:54.639 --> 00:54:58.880
warm things up and the only thing
we can talk about is narcotics. And

709
00:54:58.920 --> 00:55:01.079
I said, look, that wasn't
on high on minds. Now, if

710
00:55:01.079 --> 00:55:04.719
you said that you're going to meet
the chairman and go in the ca then

711
00:55:04.760 --> 00:55:07.840
I would start to be tempted.
But then I have to think we're getting

712
00:55:07.840 --> 00:55:09.400
out of that. But he said, I've got a deal for it.

713
00:55:09.440 --> 00:55:15.400
I said, okay, what's He
said, The poppy fields are right by

714
00:55:15.440 --> 00:55:19.679
the Friendship Bridge where the Russians left
Afghanistan that we were so heavily involved.

715
00:55:20.519 --> 00:55:22.800
They if you come, they'll take
us down to the poppy fields, but

716
00:55:22.880 --> 00:55:27.920
they will stand on Friendship bridge with
us the KGB. Milt Knight, I

717
00:55:27.960 --> 00:55:29.719
have a picture. I mean,
I think it's in the book. This

718
00:55:29.840 --> 00:55:31.880
one in the book, if I'm
not mistaken, where we're on the bridge

719
00:55:32.400 --> 00:55:43.280
with the and Assary. Now this
is where terrorism and intelligence interaction is different.

720
00:55:44.079 --> 00:55:45.679
They knew I had a job.
I knew they had a job.

721
00:55:46.079 --> 00:55:49.599
You know, it's you don't say, well, you're a tarvist and you

722
00:55:49.639 --> 00:55:52.440
have a job, and I understand
it. You never understand that, right,

723
00:55:52.239 --> 00:55:57.960
So they couldn't have been more hospitable. And part of the drill was

724
00:55:58.000 --> 00:56:04.519
I was supposed to go see the
chairman of the KGB. Now he's the

725
00:56:04.559 --> 00:56:08.360
head of a powerful service. I
was in the upper asheland, but there

726
00:56:08.400 --> 00:56:13.599
was a layer well above me here
with the director. So I really shouldn't

727
00:56:13.599 --> 00:56:16.360
have be able to see the head
of the KGB. But I saw the

728
00:56:16.400 --> 00:56:20.239
deputy and I wasn't put off.
They said, look, he's busy.

729
00:56:20.800 --> 00:56:23.159
Well he didn't though he was busy
organ This was in June of ninety one

730
00:56:23.199 --> 00:56:28.199
that we went. I didn't realize
he was being busy organized in the coup

731
00:56:28.280 --> 00:56:31.440
against Yelston that came down in August
ninety one. Now, I'm going to

732
00:56:31.480 --> 00:56:36.400
stick with the story. Yeah,
right, But I thought it was incredibly

733
00:56:36.559 --> 00:56:40.440
standing in the building with the KGB
Lennon's head behind you. Now what they

734
00:56:40.440 --> 00:56:45.519
had is interesting. As we walked
down a cart and they had black curtains

735
00:56:45.519 --> 00:56:50.599
over certain photos, right, so
you know what they were the photos of

736
00:56:50.760 --> 00:56:54.840
their success against some CIA person that
they arrested or whatever. But they pulled

737
00:56:54.920 --> 00:56:59.559
him down. So that was all
very interesting. And we were with the

738
00:57:00.239 --> 00:57:07.639
head of the kind of intelligence group
and there was a general in the colonel

739
00:57:08.559 --> 00:57:12.039
and they said, look, we
got one more thing we want to show

740
00:57:12.079 --> 00:57:15.159
you. And we come around behind
the headquarters and there's a you know,

741
00:57:15.199 --> 00:57:19.719
a wall and a gate and there's
a corporal. I didn't know it was

742
00:57:19.719 --> 00:57:23.199
a corporal. We had a Russian
speaker with him and kg B. I

743
00:57:23.360 --> 00:57:28.039
walked up to the gate and he
said, I'd like to bring our guests

744
00:57:28.119 --> 00:57:30.119
in. No, I didn't say, like, I want to bring the

745
00:57:30.159 --> 00:57:34.440
guests in, and that rush rough
Russian matter. So the corporal looks at

746
00:57:34.440 --> 00:57:38.679
his watch, little looks it's ten
after five. It closes at five.

747
00:57:38.719 --> 00:57:43.280
Now this is a corporal turning to
the crime. He said, you don't

748
00:57:43.360 --> 00:57:49.000
understand I'm here with the general and
said, well it's still quarter every and

749
00:57:49.039 --> 00:57:53.159
he would move. We went away. Now they were humiliated and humbled by

750
00:57:53.199 --> 00:57:55.760
that. When I went back,
I wrote, I said, I wrote

751
00:57:55.800 --> 00:57:59.840
a memo, but it wasn't something
you circuit it. Wow, look at

752
00:57:59.840 --> 00:58:04.760
this memo. But it was my
trip report, and I said, the

753
00:58:04.800 --> 00:58:08.480
people have lost the fear of the
KGV. The system is in serious trouble.

754
00:58:08.480 --> 00:58:13.159
I didn't know it was that serious
that two months later, but to

755
00:58:13.199 --> 00:58:17.159
me it was like the whole trip. That two minute discussion. They called

756
00:58:17.239 --> 00:58:23.760
the next day and said to our
representative with us, he's not there anymore.

757
00:58:24.719 --> 00:58:29.719
You know, Mike bett Is that
they didn't move him either. So

758
00:58:31.320 --> 00:58:36.079
that was you know, it was
one heck of a trip that I'll remember

759
00:58:36.159 --> 00:58:38.599
for a long time. I think
in your book, I think the title

760
00:58:38.679 --> 00:58:43.679
was the beginning of the end,
Like you knew at that moment that Yeah,

761
00:58:43.840 --> 00:58:45.880
well, I don't want to say
I would have ran up to the

762
00:58:45.880 --> 00:58:49.199
director. So I have to tell
you I just suddenly found the secret.

763
00:58:49.559 --> 00:58:52.480
Right, it's going to go right. But I left their field. This

764
00:58:52.519 --> 00:58:54.800
is that this is not going the
right way. I know what happened in

765
00:58:54.840 --> 00:59:00.639
Afghanistan. I could see the political
dynamics of it. In my wildest dreams,

766
00:59:00.800 --> 00:59:05.280
you know, I never as a
CIA person the whole thing was going

767
00:59:05.320 --> 00:59:08.639
to collapse, right, and then
the wall and then where we're going to

768
00:59:08.719 --> 00:59:15.079
get as far as we did.
And it was from a life experience point

769
00:59:15.079 --> 00:59:20.960
of view, incredible to watch that
and walk away with what are the three

770
00:59:21.000 --> 00:59:24.960
thousand lessons you learned from that?
Yeah? You know you mentioned Philby.

771
00:59:25.079 --> 00:59:30.400
Can we talk a little bit about
ames because you knew aims and sort of

772
00:59:30.400 --> 00:59:36.960
how that you know came about in
your view, and then also a comparison

773
00:59:37.000 --> 00:59:42.760
with like aims in Philby. Just
for chronology, let me hit Philby.

774
00:59:43.079 --> 00:59:46.719
Yeah, sure, may not know, sure, but Kim Philby was a

775
00:59:47.039 --> 00:59:53.039
very senior member of m I six
who joined the Communist Party as a young

776
00:59:53.079 --> 01:00:02.599
person I illogically oriented and rose up
into the high strengths. He represented I

777
01:00:02.679 --> 01:00:08.039
six in Washington. He was the
liaison, the interface with CIA. FBI

778
01:00:09.280 --> 01:00:15.239
went to the cocktail parties, the
legendary two and three martini lunch in the

779
01:00:15.280 --> 01:00:20.639
book, And I was talking to
an official from that time who, in

780
01:00:20.719 --> 01:00:22.880
fact, it's maybe one of the
Philby books. They'd have two martinis who

781
01:00:22.920 --> 01:00:27.000
go out to the club to drink. I mean, I don't know how

782
01:00:27.039 --> 01:00:31.039
you function, but recognized you were
you were, you were five. But

783
01:00:31.239 --> 01:00:37.559
it was a betrayal, a huge
betrayal. And what was fascinating about it

784
01:00:37.559 --> 01:00:39.559
when you look at it and you
compare it with ams. They had the

785
01:00:39.599 --> 01:00:45.039
Cambridge five. They all went to
Cambridge five people that became very senior.

786
01:00:45.039 --> 01:00:49.559
One was the queens, this art
historian Ano. There was a senior person

787
01:00:49.679 --> 01:00:55.800
in the embassy in Washington. Two
of them. One was he was a

788
01:00:55.840 --> 01:01:00.880
true drunkard and walked around town sort
of tell people it was a spy,

789
01:01:00.000 --> 01:01:04.440
but he was so drunk and to
know what he was talking about. They,

790
01:01:04.679 --> 01:01:09.119
by the way, defected while Philby
was in Washington, and the one

791
01:01:09.119 --> 01:01:14.519
that was the drunkard lived lived with
Philby. You would have thought the bell

792
01:01:14.599 --> 01:01:17.320
might have gone, maybe there's something
not right here, right, So the

793
01:01:17.400 --> 01:01:21.760
fact that he betrayed his country,
and this is why the when you look

794
01:01:21.800 --> 01:01:24.519
at all the Carey books, they're
all about that type of betrayal within the

795
01:01:24.599 --> 01:01:30.280
highest levels there is. It's the
top. When you look at taker Tailor,

796
01:01:30.239 --> 01:01:34.360
it's around the table, right.
Each chest piece represents one of the

797
01:01:34.360 --> 01:01:37.440
most senior people in the service,
and the head of the service at that

798
01:01:37.599 --> 01:01:43.880
time gets Smiley to help find out
which one of the top five. Okay,

799
01:01:44.960 --> 01:01:47.280
and let me say one more thing
about Philby, otherwise I could spend

800
01:01:47.400 --> 01:01:52.880
hours. Two things. I'll say
about one. His wife. His first

801
01:01:52.880 --> 01:01:59.400
wife was a communist and she introduced
him to a woman who was very active,

802
01:01:59.800 --> 01:02:04.360
who who then introduced him to a
KGV officer. And he thought he

803
01:02:04.440 --> 01:02:07.760
was become an activist and support of
communism and the KGB over there. You

804
01:02:07.840 --> 01:02:12.400
got to get out of that.
You've got these great credentials, you're part

805
01:02:12.440 --> 01:02:15.840
of the club, you're the governing
class. You have to go back,

806
01:02:15.079 --> 01:02:22.159
right, So what he did is
he shed it his communist background and became

807
01:02:22.400 --> 01:02:25.719
one of the club. And the
British system is very much a class system

808
01:02:27.079 --> 01:02:32.119
and the club system. And once
you're in the view is nobody in this

809
01:02:32.199 --> 01:02:37.119
club would ever betray their country.
It's what you are. You are Her

810
01:02:37.159 --> 01:02:42.639
Majesty's government. You I mean,
you just it's inconceivable. So you're blinded.

811
01:02:43.760 --> 01:02:47.880
No one went back to beta communist
roots. Later on and the investigation

812
01:02:49.079 --> 01:02:51.800
started, there was a woman that
said, you know, he was an

813
01:02:51.840 --> 01:02:55.360
active member of the Communist party,
right right, so but that was,

814
01:02:55.400 --> 01:03:00.360
oh, everybody was in the twenties
and thirties, and so there it was.

815
01:03:00.880 --> 01:03:04.239
It got in the way. Seriously, god Jack, could you expand

816
01:03:04.280 --> 01:03:07.280
on that a little bit? I
think like the notion of ideological recruitments is

817
01:03:07.280 --> 01:03:13.440
particularly interesting. And what do you
think it was about Kim Philby that drew

818
01:03:13.480 --> 01:03:17.559
him towards Communism or that pushed him
away from the British system, that led

819
01:03:17.639 --> 01:03:22.599
him to betraying his country. So
I think again, bear with me,

820
01:03:22.679 --> 01:03:27.320
because I'm guessing in some parts.
But what do you see in the number

821
01:03:27.360 --> 01:03:30.519
of the de fact there's a relationship
with the father? Okay, Now I'm

822
01:03:30.559 --> 01:03:35.880
not interesting, and it's problematic.
It doesn't mean abuse. It just means

823
01:03:35.920 --> 01:03:39.440
that there's a there's a it isn't
it's a split. There's something that his

824
01:03:39.559 --> 01:03:49.320
father was in the intelligence service,
the father was so some reason the idea

825
01:03:49.320 --> 01:03:53.960
of the system and whether it was
father and as remember I gave the father

826
01:03:55.320 --> 01:04:02.199
a book you know about as he
gave me book about espionage Calfin for Demetrius,

827
01:04:02.320 --> 01:04:09.440
right, and I gave him one
the Psychopathology of Leadership. You're predestined,

828
01:04:10.079 --> 01:04:13.360
you know, if you look at
it in some ways Philby. They

829
01:04:13.360 --> 01:04:17.400
had a choice, don't get me
wrong, but they were more psychologically tuned

830
01:04:18.679 --> 01:04:25.400
for betrail because of wherever they were
with feaces of either father and the system.

831
01:04:25.519 --> 01:04:30.280
Even though Philby was in this system, there was some tension in that

832
01:04:30.320 --> 01:04:35.800
area. But the world was different. Nineteen seventeen, there were a million

833
01:04:35.880 --> 01:04:42.039
Communists in the United States, you
know, New World, the workers will

834
01:04:42.079 --> 01:04:47.480
prevail, the a delly lifestyle.
Well, when Stalalin got in, that

835
01:04:47.639 --> 01:04:54.320
changed changed. But Philby's nineteen twenty
nine or twenty eight, and then he

836
01:04:54.840 --> 01:05:00.920
was in that nulou in Cambridge,
as were the other And I'm not saying

837
01:05:00.920 --> 01:05:09.360
they all had father's issues or right, but in Philby's case, whatever reason,

838
01:05:09.639 --> 01:05:15.199
he became a true believer, an
ideological believer. When he later defects

839
01:05:15.199 --> 01:05:16.639
that we're jumping ahead in the story, but we're not going to spend all

840
01:05:16.719 --> 01:05:24.400
night on phil because we could his
wife. What happened is he thought he

841
01:05:24.559 --> 01:05:32.079
was going to become a senior figure
in the KGV and they didn't trust them

842
01:05:32.599 --> 01:05:36.559
because he betrayed his country. Once
you betrayed, well you betray again.

843
01:05:38.079 --> 01:05:40.519
But they treated him and they you
know, he would come in for a

844
01:05:40.599 --> 01:05:44.159
briefing, but they gave him an
apartment. It's not a luxury. This

845
01:05:44.280 --> 01:05:49.679
one for sure. Never learned Russian. Only read papers in English from the

846
01:05:49.719 --> 01:05:57.960
cricket scores. Two fisted drinker,
kind of a miserable life. His wife

847
01:05:58.000 --> 01:06:02.639
separator. She went with him to
wife in this case left and she said

848
01:06:02.800 --> 01:06:08.159
even to the end he had misgivings
about Russia and this lifestyle, but he

849
01:06:08.320 --> 01:06:15.719
was still a committed ideological communist.
Which is right, you're lamping again as

850
01:06:15.800 --> 01:06:18.760
we go further into Cold War.
The Russians had a really hard They couldn't

851
01:06:18.760 --> 01:06:25.159
sell that, right. I mean, we can sell democracy and that's really

852
01:06:25.559 --> 01:06:29.039
money. People work with us because
we had a better product. They had

853
01:06:29.320 --> 01:06:31.559
a hot product for a while,
remember, had the depression him. There

854
01:06:31.599 --> 01:06:35.400
was a lot of forces the same
change this world, the other side,

855
01:06:35.440 --> 01:06:40.159
which fascism was growing because she had
the same frustrations, but people were coming

856
01:06:40.199 --> 01:06:45.920
out of the other end of the
tube with radical approaches to things. So

857
01:06:47.000 --> 01:06:54.039
I think when we look at Philby, he's the idellogical one. The other

858
01:06:54.199 --> 01:06:59.119
second part is that he was part
of a group that makes them different.

859
01:06:59.800 --> 01:07:04.039
And the third he was part of
the class and he was a senior person,

860
01:07:04.280 --> 01:07:10.039
a real player, at the top
of the pretty service. So if

861
01:07:10.079 --> 01:07:13.519
we fast forward, well, I
should say one thing. I gave a

862
01:07:13.559 --> 01:07:17.679
talk at one of the clubs and
I don't one of the clubs in town

863
01:07:17.760 --> 01:07:21.920
in New York City, and we
spent a lot of the night talking about

864
01:07:21.920 --> 01:07:26.519
this, and they sold some books
and lad one lady came up, and

865
01:07:26.519 --> 01:07:29.920
then another. What about Kim Philby? He lives on, I mean he

866
01:07:29.960 --> 01:07:32.920
lives on. As people that follow
this, it was such an intricate story,

867
01:07:33.000 --> 01:07:38.199
and I tried to figure out,
as you just asked me, how

868
01:07:38.400 --> 01:07:43.880
is he not like games right now? Philby did a lot of damage because

869
01:07:43.920 --> 01:07:47.760
he was sitting at the top and
had a lot of information about what was

870
01:07:47.800 --> 01:07:53.280
going on and could have it almost
became ce he got that close. So

871
01:07:54.320 --> 01:08:00.519
until there was rumors about him,
and even when sources started to report that

872
01:08:00.599 --> 01:08:06.719
he was a you know, a
trader, the services split about fifty percent.

873
01:08:08.239 --> 01:08:10.719
And then he farmed him off the
bray route. And we'll leave it

874
01:08:11.280 --> 01:08:14.719
again. We can go on and
on with Philby, but if we fast

875
01:08:14.760 --> 01:08:18.600
forward to Aims. So I did
know and he was about to go into

876
01:08:18.640 --> 01:08:25.880
training and I was coming into an
office behind him several months and he was

877
01:08:25.920 --> 01:08:32.399
a diehard loyal Murray again committed loved
espionage Russia, that was where he was

878
01:08:32.439 --> 01:08:35.840
going to be. Came to me
once and somewhere along the line said,

879
01:08:36.079 --> 01:08:41.119
you have to understand, counterintelligence is
the ace of spades, and I guess

880
01:08:41.199 --> 01:08:45.479
the ace of clubs and diamonds,
right, don't matter as much. But

881
01:08:45.159 --> 01:08:51.000
very from the beginning he was into
this framework. One of his drinking incidents

882
01:08:51.199 --> 01:08:56.000
even further in his career, which
I read about later, was a fight

883
01:08:56.159 --> 01:09:00.119
or argument, a heated argument when
he was drunk with a cuban. Other

884
01:09:00.159 --> 01:09:06.840
words, he wasn't sympathetic to the
queue with it now he had. I

885
01:09:06.920 --> 01:09:13.319
think he was liberal socially, if
you will, but from an intelligence point

886
01:09:13.319 --> 01:09:18.960
of view, he was very conservative
at the time. And as his career

887
01:09:19.119 --> 01:09:26.920
prosper and we look at Ames,
he was the equivalent of a major.

888
01:09:27.000 --> 01:09:30.560
Nothing wrong with the major, right, But Philby was a genuine three star

889
01:09:31.039 --> 01:09:35.119
contender, I mean three star general
and a contender for the top job.

890
01:09:35.840 --> 01:09:40.520
He was part of the boys at
the top in those days, right.

891
01:09:41.319 --> 01:09:45.199
Ames was not He was a middle
and he wasn't a manager. He was

892
01:09:45.399 --> 01:09:47.600
you know, sort of his specially
he was doing rush. He had some

893
01:09:48.239 --> 01:09:51.119
skills, and he wasn't flow and
fluent, but he could speak it.

894
01:09:51.279 --> 01:09:56.399
Very few people did, so he
was often involved in the sensitive cases.

895
01:09:57.720 --> 01:10:00.680
I don't know if Philby ever had
the access. It's a smaller service,

896
01:10:00.720 --> 01:10:04.760
so he may have. But Aimes
sat where the crown jewels were, right,

897
01:10:04.880 --> 01:10:10.239
so you could have been the cleanup
crew. If you had access to

898
01:10:10.279 --> 01:10:13.880
the safe, you would do great
damage to our country. Right. So

899
01:10:14.239 --> 01:10:19.000
Ames was just because he was there
didn't mean that he didn't have access to

900
01:10:19.079 --> 01:10:28.680
some of the most powerful and damaging
secrets. And as a result of it,

901
01:10:28.920 --> 01:10:33.560
ten of our best spies inside the
Krumblin and lost their lives. Thanked

902
01:10:34.520 --> 01:10:42.159
Rick Ames turning over their names.
But Rich's motivation I looked at it differently,

903
01:10:42.159 --> 01:10:45.760
and I said I knew him well, and he went to his wedding

904
01:10:45.840 --> 01:10:47.359
and so on, and he worked
for me for a while. He was

905
01:10:47.399 --> 01:10:50.079
supposed to leave. I wish he
had left before I got there. His

906
01:10:50.119 --> 01:10:55.520
wife was pregnant, so they extended
him. In retrospect, I'd got to

907
01:10:55.520 --> 01:10:59.000
see him later in his life,
but early in his life he could care

908
01:10:59.159 --> 01:11:04.119
less about how look, you know
spoke the teeth brown and missing, and

909
01:11:04.560 --> 01:11:08.399
clothes were the same shirt and he
could care less. But if he gave

910
01:11:08.439 --> 01:11:13.159
him a good buck and a class
of bourbon and a cigarette. I mean

911
01:11:13.319 --> 01:11:16.840
he was happy in life. It
wasn't like he needed Gucci shoes. But

912
01:11:16.880 --> 01:11:25.920
he married. He fell in love
with a Colombian diplomat in Mexico who had

913
01:11:25.960 --> 01:11:31.279
come from money but lost it.
But she had financial knees. When she

914
01:11:31.439 --> 01:11:35.479
was arrested, and she had five
hundred pairs of shoes, it was like

915
01:11:36.399 --> 01:11:44.680
the Milde Maco and she had designer
dresses that had never been taken out of

916
01:11:44.720 --> 01:11:47.119
the bag. It was like buying, and she was sending a lot of

917
01:11:47.119 --> 01:11:51.079
money to her parents because they didn't
have it. Unfortunately, when the CAI

918
01:11:51.239 --> 01:11:58.399
started to investigate aims, because they
had several investigations looking for them, all

919
01:11:58.439 --> 01:12:02.840
they knew there was one in there, and the report came back she came

920
01:12:02.880 --> 01:12:09.119
from money. So he's a kept
man today. There's so much information you

921
01:12:09.159 --> 01:12:12.960
could you know, you wouldn't have
to leave your computer to figure out what

922
01:12:13.039 --> 01:12:15.279
kind of money she had or didn't
have. But that was his story.

923
01:12:15.399 --> 01:12:19.159
But she then next thing, you
know, he's dressing botter, his teeth

924
01:12:19.159 --> 01:12:24.119
are all fixed. But he didn't
it wasn't because he felt a need to

925
01:12:24.199 --> 01:12:28.680
dress that way, look that way. But he had tremendous financial presser and

926
01:12:28.720 --> 01:12:32.279
he had a drinking problem. And
again whether an alcoholic or just drink too

927
01:12:32.359 --> 01:12:38.279
much constantly is a different area issue. But he could lay off of the

928
01:12:38.319 --> 01:12:43.279
difference was he could lay off of
it from time to time, but he

929
01:12:43.319 --> 01:12:48.800
needed money to keep that going.
But I think it was a convergence the

930
01:12:48.880 --> 01:12:53.880
psychological part. So I would say
money to Eleanor's that's not an issue with

931
01:12:53.920 --> 01:12:57.880
philby right, but it becomes an
issue with Aimes and a number of them

932
01:12:58.399 --> 01:13:02.520
handsome, but Hanson also, I
would say both of them have a psychology.

933
01:13:03.119 --> 01:13:06.319
And that was Ames sort. He
was smarter than everybody. Now,

934
01:13:09.159 --> 01:13:13.239
a lot of smart people in the
agency. I'd never met anyone that was

935
01:13:13.479 --> 01:13:15.279
not smart. Now that doesn't mean
they were right, doesn't mean that I

936
01:13:15.399 --> 01:13:19.760
read with them, but by and
large decent IQ. You don't want to

937
01:13:19.760 --> 01:13:23.680
be a genius because then you're dysfunctional. So we could all pass off as

938
01:13:23.720 --> 01:13:27.520
they were just a little below genius. I maybe further than that, but

939
01:13:28.319 --> 01:13:31.279
he really had a bigger ego.
And one of the mistakes I consistently have

940
01:13:31.359 --> 01:13:38.600
made in life is I don't recognize
the size of your ego because I looked

941
01:13:38.600 --> 01:13:41.239
at them. Why would you have
an ego? Right? And the on

942
01:13:41.319 --> 01:13:44.920
need to find out it's massive,
right, So it's deceiving. So he

943
01:13:45.199 --> 01:13:50.000
thought he was really God's gift to
the intelligence world, and we just didn't

944
01:13:50.000 --> 01:13:54.840
appreciate him. But he was lazy, so he never looked in the mirror.

945
01:13:54.920 --> 01:13:56.960
Well, Ricky, only do the
things you like, and you only

946
01:13:57.079 --> 01:14:00.600
do them well when you like them. And you don't do accountants, you

947
01:14:00.640 --> 01:14:03.840
don't do reports, you don't hustle. Yeah, so no, you're not

948
01:14:03.880 --> 01:14:08.359
going to get fronted, right.
So, yes, people are passing you

949
01:14:08.439 --> 01:14:11.159
by wreck so, but that's not
how he's looking. He's looking at the

950
01:14:11.239 --> 01:14:16.359
system is bad. They're denying me
my rightful role as this intelligence. That's

951
01:14:16.720 --> 01:14:21.880
it's and this happens in many defectors. It's it's the system that they're they're

952
01:14:21.960 --> 01:14:28.039
going against. It's not it's not
this is phil it's not Philby. I

953
01:14:28.119 --> 01:14:30.319
want to be a commune. He
didn't want to be a communist. He

954
01:14:30.439 --> 01:14:35.920
wanted money and he wanted satisfaction,
he wanted respect. So, sitting across

955
01:14:36.319 --> 01:14:42.520
from the Russian embassy, I'm surprised
he didn't have three martinis, but I

956
01:14:42.600 --> 01:14:45.800
think it was like three and tonics, right, but it's enough you get

957
01:14:45.840 --> 01:14:50.439
double shots or triple So he sat
there thinking about it because he had a

958
01:14:50.479 --> 01:14:54.720
big ego. I can go in
and hustle the Russians. Yeah, okay,

959
01:14:55.479 --> 01:15:00.159
So he goes into the guy that's
handling that is handling handsoen so you're

960
01:15:00.279 --> 01:15:04.279
you're walking, You're walking into somebody
that knows something about how to handle this

961
01:15:04.800 --> 01:15:10.079
type of ego. And they played
the violins for him, and they gave

962
01:15:10.199 --> 01:15:14.359
him that, right, and you
know, the camaraderie and all of this.

963
01:15:14.840 --> 01:15:17.159
The interesting thing about Hanson, though, is from what I've read at

964
01:15:17.279 --> 01:15:21.319
least, is the KG beat never
actually knew who he was. No,

965
01:15:21.479 --> 01:15:24.640
they had no idea, never met
him, and they were paying him in

966
01:15:24.720 --> 01:15:27.800
diamonds. Right. No, I
don't know, I don't know. Okay,

967
01:15:27.840 --> 01:15:30.920
I'm sorry if i'm I don't know
about that. But bags of cash

968
01:15:31.079 --> 01:15:33.720
if he got back to cash Adam, because I think I would have heard

969
01:15:33.760 --> 01:15:36.199
that. You know, you just
don't get a bag of diamonds and go

970
01:15:36.319 --> 01:15:40.960
down to the jewelers row and it
all works out right. You got to

971
01:15:41.039 --> 01:15:44.000
know how to do that. Yeah, And I didn't. I didn't see

972
01:15:44.039 --> 01:15:47.079
that or read that. I think
there was plain Hanson is an interesting case

973
01:15:47.239 --> 01:15:50.800
too. To juxtapose with Ames,
well if you want, but just roll

974
01:15:50.920 --> 01:15:56.880
right. Yeah, But going going
back to Ames, he walked in and

975
01:15:57.000 --> 01:16:00.560
he was going to give them some
junk, right, But the second meeting

976
01:16:00.720 --> 01:16:08.720
he gave he cloffed up the whole
tent and there was an interesting not interesting.

977
01:16:09.039 --> 01:16:15.960
There was a tension between the KGB
and the POLYP or the political government.

978
01:16:15.439 --> 01:16:18.840
They did not want to kill the
spies. They wanted to keep them

979
01:16:19.279 --> 01:16:23.359
in. In other words, they
wanted to handle from a counterintelligence point of

980
01:16:23.439 --> 01:16:27.000
view, and they also wanted to
protect aims. Now, would you wrap

981
01:16:27.119 --> 01:16:30.800
up these ten you're going to find
aims. You're going to find handsome.

982
01:16:30.920 --> 01:16:34.079
But the Polypu was so annoyed,
not annoyed, that doesn't get it.

983
01:16:35.039 --> 01:16:40.359
Kill them, you know. So
they were all executed. Two of them

984
01:16:40.399 --> 01:16:42.520
are at the other day. Were
shot in the back of the head.

985
01:16:42.560 --> 01:16:48.720
I mean, it wasn't you know, it wasn't let's say, and I

986
01:16:48.760 --> 01:16:54.439
don't know how you died nicely,
but I don't know. But it wasn't

987
01:16:54.960 --> 01:16:58.840
a trader's sort of exit, right, It doesn't have any you know,

988
01:16:58.920 --> 01:17:01.600
you're not shot in the face or
shot of firing sweat. So it was

989
01:17:04.279 --> 01:17:09.680
you know, it was devastating.
And there was a journalist and I don't

990
01:17:09.760 --> 01:17:15.399
recall which one, but she was
at an interview with him. There aren't

991
01:17:15.399 --> 01:17:18.039
many of them, interviews with Ames, and it was in the early years

992
01:17:18.079 --> 01:17:23.840
after he was arrested and interviews going
along. It's interesting Ames, you know,

993
01:17:24.079 --> 01:17:27.800
sort of telling his story and she
said, well, do you have

994
01:17:27.840 --> 01:17:30.800
any remorse regret about it? And
it's not like he stopped and said,

995
01:17:30.840 --> 01:17:34.279
well, let me think about that. Instant said I didn't have any remorse.

996
01:17:35.680 --> 01:17:40.399
Oh my god. One of them, which again I was reading something

997
01:17:40.479 --> 01:17:45.039
on this the other day, he
actually became friends with one. I mean

998
01:17:45.079 --> 01:17:48.079
he was they he actually thought that. He thought that, he says he

999
01:17:48.279 --> 01:17:55.399
was my friend. We became friends. And but if I didn't throw him

1000
01:17:55.479 --> 01:17:59.000
under the bus, you know,
I was going to be I would be

1001
01:17:59.199 --> 01:18:04.760
at risk. So gave him up
to So wow, I want to go

1002
01:18:04.800 --> 01:18:12.359
into this is the psychological and the
financial part of it. So in the

1003
01:18:12.600 --> 01:18:16.239
end, again there's so many aspects
of these cases. Yeah, but Ames

1004
01:18:16.439 --> 01:18:21.600
was there's a number of people that
built a team. We knew we had

1005
01:18:21.640 --> 01:18:26.680
a mole. There were a couple. There were years that went by where

1006
01:18:26.840 --> 01:18:29.600
we were like the bridge. We
could not accept that we had a molt.

1007
01:18:30.520 --> 01:18:32.840
Therefore, it must have been long
Tree when he broke into the when

1008
01:18:32.880 --> 01:18:40.640
he had a party inside the embassy. Right long Tree was a security guard,

1009
01:18:40.800 --> 01:18:43.560
marine guard. That must have been
it. Oh, it must have

1010
01:18:43.600 --> 01:18:48.560
been technology. They're bouncing beams now
there was Everything was technical because they couldn't

1011
01:18:48.560 --> 01:18:53.800
accept it. Eventually, you couldn't
run away from it. We had somebody

1012
01:18:53.840 --> 01:19:00.319
who Milt had this interesting anecdote about
when there was a Soviet defector and he

1013
01:19:00.439 --> 01:19:03.920
arrived in the United States that Aldrich
games like immediately like snuggles up to this

1014
01:19:04.000 --> 01:19:08.000
guy in the car on the ride
from the airport to wherever they were at

1015
01:19:08.000 --> 01:19:11.119
the safehouse that they were going to, and he's trying to figure out if

1016
01:19:11.159 --> 01:19:15.479
the defector knows about him that he's
a trader. Was that motor boat?

1017
01:19:15.000 --> 01:19:17.880
No, that's me. This is
built okay, Oh yeah, okay,

1018
01:19:18.159 --> 01:19:29.199
so motor boat the same things with
less happy ending. Like that guy went

1019
01:19:29.239 --> 01:19:35.800
on to live. So when I
was in Rome, we had a bulgarian.

1020
01:19:35.880 --> 01:19:40.359
Again, see how he's not going
to come and drag me out of

1021
01:19:40.399 --> 01:19:42.880
here in the middle of this interview, because this is all in the public

1022
01:19:42.960 --> 01:19:45.600
domain that I've been told you any
secret. And I want to assure everybody

1023
01:19:45.720 --> 01:19:49.319
this is not jin this is this
is Poland Spring. And we did not

1024
01:19:49.560 --> 01:19:54.760
do shots before the show. I'm
just saying, we did not do Oh,

1025
01:19:54.800 --> 01:20:01.079
you're really helping me a lot.
So so you know, coming back

1026
01:20:01.119 --> 01:20:09.079
to the story with motor Boat.
He walked in to the embassy and it

1027
01:20:09.239 --> 01:20:13.199
was going to be met over the
week and debriefed and polygraphed, right and

1028
01:20:13.399 --> 01:20:15.600
Rick spoke Russian. This guy spoke
Russian, so that they were going to

1029
01:20:15.960 --> 01:20:20.840
that made sense. And so when
I was coming in the morning, I

1030
01:20:20.960 --> 01:20:25.079
ran into the polygraph operator and I
said, well, how did he go?

1031
01:20:25.239 --> 01:20:28.800
He said, oh god, we
did it seven times? And I

1032
01:20:28.840 --> 01:20:33.279
said you did what? Because once
you start doing potographs, you degrade a

1033
01:20:33.439 --> 01:20:40.359
polygraph. But Ames was concerned that
motor Boat might have been able to identify

1034
01:20:40.399 --> 01:20:46.199
and identify it, so you ended
up with an inconclusive polygraph. Right now,

1035
01:20:46.720 --> 01:20:49.359
he never came back. I didn't
know it was never coming back.

1036
01:20:50.560 --> 01:21:00.680
But I'd like to think I'd like
to think I'm cool and composed, but

1037
01:21:00.840 --> 01:21:03.800
I really, I really was upset
so and he was in a different part

1038
01:21:03.840 --> 01:21:08.560
of the building so it wasn't un
though it was within reach. But there

1039
01:21:08.640 --> 01:21:11.600
was a card and I saw him
coming down the carder and we just it's

1040
01:21:11.640 --> 01:21:15.000
one of those ugly situations. And
I really I'm glad I did it to

1041
01:21:15.079 --> 01:21:17.800
him, but I probably would be
embarrassed if I tried it with either of

1042
01:21:17.880 --> 01:21:23.640
you. But or worse, But
the I really said, how can you

1043
01:21:23.720 --> 01:21:25.520
do this? How can you be
so stupid? I mean, it was

1044
01:21:25.600 --> 01:21:30.600
not nice. And normally there's two
reactions. One is, well, let

1045
01:21:30.640 --> 01:21:34.560
me explain myself, right, you
explain myself because you do. Or the

1046
01:21:34.640 --> 01:21:36.680
other is you don't know. I
know more than you do. And I

1047
01:21:36.760 --> 01:21:40.880
did that, you know that.
There's two things. What I got was

1048
01:21:40.960 --> 01:21:45.800
stone silence. It was like,
wow, that was really odd. You

1049
01:21:45.880 --> 01:21:51.960
know, you're bleeding to death,
but you're just standing there. And there's

1050
01:21:53.159 --> 01:21:57.039
in Spanish the word oha, which
means look out, watch out that little

1051
01:21:57.199 --> 01:22:01.000
pieces of something wrong with things?
Is it? But that doesn't mean you're

1052
01:22:01.000 --> 01:22:04.319
a spy. That doesn't mean a
spy. Doesn't mean a spy if you're

1053
01:22:04.359 --> 01:22:08.840
fall down drunk. Now they dried
him out because we had a system of

1054
01:22:08.920 --> 01:22:14.520
trying to bring him in, but
so you leave that aside and the team,

1055
01:22:15.039 --> 01:22:18.279
the team that was put together.
And by the way, their first

1056
01:22:18.399 --> 01:22:21.399
vote when they had looking at the
list, Ames did not make the top

1057
01:22:21.479 --> 01:22:27.720
slot. I think he made it
on Geene and Sandy Grimes as they were

1058
01:22:27.760 --> 01:22:32.720
on the team list, but they
Ames did not look like the person that

1059
01:22:32.920 --> 01:22:38.359
was going to be fingered for this. And then it dissolved. I have

1060
01:22:38.479 --> 01:22:42.600
no idea why it dissolved. And
Gene was about to retire when it's let

1061
01:22:42.640 --> 01:22:46.239
me give another shot and start looking
for it, right. And so they

1062
01:22:46.279 --> 01:22:49.439
came to me not too late,
in very lately, gave me. When

1063
01:22:49.439 --> 01:22:53.920
they're getting to the and part,
they called said, Jack, we can't

1064
01:22:54.000 --> 01:22:59.159
meet you in our office. Can
we meet you somewhere like where it looks

1065
01:22:59.199 --> 01:23:01.159
like we're having a couple of copi
and just you know, it doesn't look

1066
01:23:01.239 --> 01:23:05.960
business. So it came in,
saidjactly one one question. We're closing in

1067
01:23:06.119 --> 01:23:11.600
on Ames. I mean this is
a very you know, they're not asking

1068
01:23:11.600 --> 01:23:14.760
a lot of people that question.
He said, do you think he could

1069
01:23:14.760 --> 01:23:18.680
be a spy? Now? Like
Ames? I responded immediately, I do

1070
01:23:19.520 --> 01:23:24.600
now He said, well, Jack
who's the second person in the entire building

1071
01:23:25.119 --> 01:23:28.720
who you think could be a spy? I mean stuck. It was that

1072
01:23:28.880 --> 01:23:31.439
one moment. Now I didn't know
what it was. There was something wrong.

1073
01:23:31.560 --> 01:23:35.439
So when they said it, of
course he could be was he I

1074
01:23:35.520 --> 01:23:41.159
knew about the ego and all these
others. But when but I saw him

1075
01:23:41.239 --> 01:23:45.359
and remembered him as such an anti
communist that it wasn't clicking. But at

1076
01:23:45.439 --> 01:23:51.720
that moment I said, yes he
could. So my point is the psychology

1077
01:23:51.800 --> 01:23:59.279
of Ames and who he was,
and his behavior is quite different than Philby,

1078
01:24:00.439 --> 01:24:06.079
and Hansen gets closer to Ames than
Philby, and Ames was not part

1079
01:24:06.680 --> 01:24:13.119
In other words, he was Philby
was a highly respected person. Ames was

1080
01:24:13.199 --> 01:24:17.000
not. You go to Hanson,
and again we haven't even introduced him yet,

1081
01:24:17.239 --> 01:24:21.560
but are some of these same conditions
apply apply with Hanson? You you

1082
01:24:21.680 --> 01:24:27.000
wrote about the fallout from Ames,
where I don't remember if it was a

1083
01:24:27.039 --> 01:24:30.199
new director or whom it was,
but but they called, you know,

1084
01:24:30.399 --> 01:24:34.039
ten people basically to carpet a lot
of people in the auditorium, and people

1085
01:24:34.079 --> 01:24:40.119
thought that the these ten people who
had worked with Ames or failed to identify

1086
01:24:40.239 --> 01:24:44.800
Ames were going to get fired.
And really they they just got they got

1087
01:24:44.920 --> 01:24:49.199
reprimanded. Right. Bill Studeman was
the Admiral Studeman. It was a good

1088
01:24:49.239 --> 01:24:51.720
friend of mine. It's a good
friend. I haven't seen it in a

1089
01:24:51.800 --> 01:24:56.560
long time. He goes up in
New York, but I remember him saying,

1090
01:24:56.720 --> 01:24:59.920
you know, this was our best
day. We caught up. Yeah,

1091
01:25:00.680 --> 01:25:03.520
all the people before us didn't catch
him. Sandy says the same thing.

1092
01:25:03.600 --> 01:25:06.359
It's your best day and your worst
day. Right, we got him.

1093
01:25:06.439 --> 01:25:10.399
We really did a great job.
But now it's hell to pay.

1094
01:25:11.560 --> 01:25:15.880
But there's so much pain, right, the institutions that somebody has to hang.

1095
01:25:15.640 --> 01:25:21.760
The outside world was really wanted people
that. However, they did an

1096
01:25:21.800 --> 01:25:27.760
investigation, and what happens in a
lot of these things, there's like fifty

1097
01:25:27.960 --> 01:25:32.039
people that may have they should have
done the polygraph, they should have seen

1098
01:25:32.079 --> 01:25:35.319
it on the polygraph, that someone
should have checked his finance at somebody.

1099
01:25:35.880 --> 01:25:43.479
So what you had with fifty people
had different different roles. But Woolsey was

1100
01:25:43.520 --> 01:25:47.039
a lawyer, so his expert I
looked at as a lawyer, I'm looking

1101
01:25:47.079 --> 01:25:51.079
at do I want to prosecute anybody? From that point of view, And

1102
01:25:51.199 --> 01:25:57.479
so he saw it as fifty people, so he had to grade it and

1103
01:25:58.399 --> 01:26:01.840
I think there were you were under
the couple were not getting promotions and they

1104
01:26:02.039 --> 01:26:06.199
weren't going to get an award and
this, and but I was in the

1105
01:26:06.279 --> 01:26:10.239
auditorium and I could feel, no, that's not the right answer. Someone

1106
01:26:11.680 --> 01:26:15.239
throw them to the wolf, get
somebody right. And I thought Wolvesey was

1107
01:26:15.319 --> 01:26:20.880
just going to stay on this ground. And I think it was painful.

1108
01:26:20.960 --> 01:26:28.720
It's people underestimate just I mean,
it's betrayal and it's detrimental effect. I

1109
01:26:28.760 --> 01:26:32.760
will point out I was not on
the tent but coming back, and I

1110
01:26:32.800 --> 01:26:42.079
think it may be more than that, but very very, very painful experience.

1111
01:26:42.239 --> 01:26:44.680
But one of the things that happened, and I think I told you

1112
01:26:44.800 --> 01:26:53.720
this at the time, the executive
director decided we're going to fix things.

1113
01:26:53.720 --> 01:26:55.720
We're going to have new c I
training, we're going to have this.

1114
01:26:56.399 --> 01:26:59.279
All that's good. I'm not saying
you don't do it. Be able to

1115
01:26:59.319 --> 01:27:03.319
look at financial things right. Anyone
who gets a drink will it'll be set

1116
01:27:03.399 --> 01:27:06.600
off. So we're gonna have all
these things. But then they hand it

1117
01:27:06.680 --> 01:27:11.760
out never again, right badges.
I refuse to wear one. Some people

1118
01:27:11.800 --> 01:27:16.359
probably said, well he's yeah,
there's a communist. We've found what the

1119
01:27:16.439 --> 01:27:18.680
other people that thought I might be
betrayed. I'll get to that in a

1120
01:27:18.800 --> 01:27:26.760
minute. But went handsOn. But
the point is you can't say never again.

1121
01:27:27.119 --> 01:27:30.920
We're penetrating the countries. That's our
job. Get sources. And if

1122
01:27:30.960 --> 01:27:34.159
you go back over history, we've
had sources. They've been in there,

1123
01:27:34.760 --> 01:27:40.439
they're always you have to work on
the assumption they're always there. It wasn't

1124
01:27:40.479 --> 01:27:45.520
that I was arrogant. I already
was told that we had one right handsome

1125
01:27:45.840 --> 01:27:49.840
and CIA. Now it turns out
and the FBI was They won't like me

1126
01:27:49.880 --> 01:27:54.960
saying that. They were absolutely convinced
it was ours why they had the blinders

1127
01:27:55.039 --> 01:27:59.399
on. It can't be us,
got to be you And turned out in

1128
01:27:59.439 --> 01:28:02.880
the end I had twenty FBI people
helping to find Hanson, and so I

1129
01:28:03.239 --> 01:28:09.640
how can I put it never never
again when we had somebody sitting right in

1130
01:28:09.800 --> 01:28:13.520
the midst of us. And the
flip side of that, because with the

1131
01:28:13.640 --> 01:28:17.359
Hanson story, with the flip side
of that, wherever he thinks you,

1132
01:28:17.640 --> 01:28:21.399
you know you're you're either the FBI
or the CIA. You should be able

1133
01:28:21.439 --> 01:28:27.920
to find these people. You have
Kelly right, who was was wasn't he

1134
01:28:28.079 --> 01:28:32.640
the first person like I identified,
but it was a wrong identification. There

1135
01:28:32.720 --> 01:28:38.399
was a fellow Brian Kelly, and
it's a I knew Brian. Brian actually

1136
01:28:38.439 --> 01:28:43.239
worked for me. I thought he
was an excellent officer, very dedicated.

1137
01:28:44.520 --> 01:28:47.720
Only Brian aside first, Okay,
when we started looking for Hanson, because

1138
01:28:47.760 --> 01:28:51.640
of the experience and names, I
called the team that was looking at him

1139
01:28:51.680 --> 01:28:55.920
and I said, I want to
see hos on the list. I want

1140
01:28:55.960 --> 01:28:59.560
to see whether it was anybody I
had a feeling about, right, Yeah,

1141
01:29:00.199 --> 01:29:05.680
And they refused to give it to
the right number. At that point,

1142
01:29:05.760 --> 01:29:11.640
I was the acting director of the
all operations, right, so you're

1143
01:29:12.199 --> 01:29:15.319
several, but you're not going to
give it to me. So they were

1144
01:29:15.439 --> 01:29:19.199
really terrific people. I mean,
they were protecting their country. Don't let

1145
01:29:19.279 --> 01:29:23.880
anybody know this, So I have
to know. So they came up and

1146
01:29:24.159 --> 01:29:28.960
I think they probably went back and
opened a file on it. But none

1147
01:29:29.000 --> 01:29:30.319
of them felt right to me.
And I didn't know everyone, but it

1148
01:29:30.359 --> 01:29:36.359
doesn't I didn't feel right, but
that doesn't mean there wasn't somebody on that

1149
01:29:36.560 --> 01:29:42.720
list. But it's so hard because
you're looking and you're going to report,

1150
01:29:42.800 --> 01:29:47.039
Oh he served in Berlin. Oh
No, who also was in Colombia.

1151
01:29:48.359 --> 01:29:55.279
He's thirty five. No, he's
more he's sixty two. So what you're

1152
01:29:55.319 --> 01:29:59.760
getting is your matrix. He but
who's the one person? So it's not

1153
01:29:59.840 --> 01:30:04.520
a as easy as it sounds.
But little by little there was you know,

1154
01:30:05.119 --> 01:30:09.960
one of the women that was on
the team, Diane, but worked

1155
01:30:10.000 --> 01:30:13.680
with Rosario or a new Rosari very
well, and she knew she didn't have

1156
01:30:13.760 --> 01:30:15.159
money. So I think she went
to the team and it was a breakthrough.

1157
01:30:15.720 --> 01:30:18.840
She doesn't have any money. How
does Rick have the money? Now,

1158
01:30:19.479 --> 01:30:25.960
now you've got the makings of a
case. Where is the money?

1159
01:30:26.000 --> 01:30:29.720
How did he get the money?
And then there was a I have a

1160
01:30:30.039 --> 01:30:32.720
chapter, takes a spy to catch
us by if nothing else, you need

1161
01:30:32.800 --> 01:30:35.680
to have spies over there, so
they tell you how they find your spy.

1162
01:30:36.960 --> 01:30:42.159
So just like Ames was a spy
that helped catch all their spies.

1163
01:30:42.960 --> 01:30:46.479
Someone on the end said, not
provided enough identifying data from the KGB,

1164
01:30:46.760 --> 01:30:53.960
But there wasn't any doubt that Ames
was the guilty party. But because we

1165
01:30:54.079 --> 01:30:57.359
know you're a spy, we can't
arrest you. You have to prove it

1166
01:30:57.439 --> 01:31:02.039
in court. So then begins a
big FBI operation. They bought the apartment

1167
01:31:02.159 --> 01:31:06.359
next to them. Dozens of officers
follow them. I mean, despite rich

1168
01:31:06.479 --> 01:31:11.119
training, he probably never spotted it. I don't know. But he was

1169
01:31:11.279 --> 01:31:17.039
lazy. So the FBI pulling his
trash every day. It's especialty in some

1170
01:31:17.279 --> 01:31:20.199
business. I'd be surprised when he
goes out in the trash. But he

1171
01:31:20.319 --> 01:31:26.520
was lazy. So he on a
post it wrote down clandestine contact instructions that

1172
01:31:26.560 --> 01:31:30.079
he got from the KGB. They
had that and they got him. And

1173
01:31:31.039 --> 01:31:36.640
it was this laziness, his lack
of operational as Ubrius again going to catch

1174
01:31:36.760 --> 01:31:43.680
me. I'm smarter than all of
these, all these people the same again,

1175
01:31:44.279 --> 01:31:46.439
just to we transitioned the hands and
because we talked about him with people

1176
01:31:46.600 --> 01:31:53.760
and the audience may not know was
an FBI officer and he betrayed his country.

1177
01:31:53.800 --> 01:31:56.840
But he actually had a longer run
I think over twenty years. Rick

1178
01:31:56.880 --> 01:32:02.439
out about fifteen. And you had
mentioned to me earlier the KGB never met

1179
01:32:02.520 --> 01:32:10.479
him, right he established a relationship
with him over in McLean. If you're

1180
01:32:11.960 --> 01:32:15.239
Virginia, there's a right middle and
there's a park foxtone I think, and

1181
01:32:15.359 --> 01:32:20.600
he would put a trash bag of
documents there. KGB's I mean CIA people

1182
01:32:20.640 --> 01:32:24.920
lived up and down the street.
You know, no one knew what was

1183
01:32:24.960 --> 01:32:29.960
going on. He would leave the
documents, they leave the money, he

1184
01:32:30.000 --> 01:32:36.279
would take the money. And they
worked for the KGB the gru passing periods

1185
01:32:36.279 --> 01:32:42.840
where he wasn't working, but they
never met him. But he his fingerprints

1186
01:32:43.039 --> 01:32:46.960
on the trash trash bags. So
like games, not quite as smart as

1187
01:32:47.039 --> 01:32:50.720
he thinks he is. But the
second thing is he made one call during

1188
01:32:50.760 --> 01:32:55.600
his entire time to the case,
not identifying himself, but they taped his

1189
01:32:55.880 --> 01:33:03.680
voice. So when they were closing
in on Hansen again, the spy of

1190
01:33:03.800 --> 01:33:06.840
ours, or let me put de
factor, came to us and said,

1191
01:33:09.119 --> 01:33:13.920
here's a tray, here's a trash
bag. And I think it must have

1192
01:33:14.000 --> 01:33:17.479
been a heartbreaking thing because I think
the head of the FBI was Leuis Free

1193
01:33:17.520 --> 01:33:21.880
and the top officers sat there and
listened to the recording and they knew exactly

1194
01:33:21.960 --> 01:33:30.479
who It was not your best best
day. But again he thought he was

1195
01:33:30.319 --> 01:33:33.760
gifted smart, but he had a
personality disorder. He was kind of a

1196
01:33:33.800 --> 01:33:39.880
creepy guy. You know. Well
that's to say that we can get into

1197
01:33:39.920 --> 01:33:46.000
his lifestyle, but we had some
cansiously, yes so, but he had

1198
01:33:46.079 --> 01:33:50.079
issues. He had an issue with
his father was a policeman in Chicago,

1199
01:33:50.359 --> 01:33:59.159
and there was tension. But again
it was this big ego and trying to

1200
01:33:59.319 --> 01:34:02.760
prove himself somehow in this process.
But he was a techie when it wasn't

1201
01:34:03.199 --> 01:34:08.279
as common as everyone's a techee today. But so he was able to get

1202
01:34:08.359 --> 01:34:13.760
into different places in the just like
Ames, where there was very sensitive information

1203
01:34:15.399 --> 01:34:20.680
and a huge damage to the agency. But like Philby, because we really

1204
01:34:20.720 --> 01:34:29.720
didn't get a tip on Ames,
Hanson's brother in law was an FBI officer

1205
01:34:30.479 --> 01:34:34.840
and went to his superior and said, I think Hanson is involved in espionage

1206
01:34:35.079 --> 01:34:41.800
because his wife found a drawer of
money and it did go anywhere, and

1207
01:34:41.880 --> 01:34:47.520
then there was a case of that
got wrapped up and he was involved in

1208
01:34:47.600 --> 01:34:54.680
it. And Edwin Pitts was an
FBI officer and reported to his superior,

1209
01:34:54.760 --> 01:35:00.399
I think Hanson is And again you're
going back to the British service. There's

1210
01:35:00.439 --> 01:35:04.960
this reluctance that you can't underestimate.
It can't be, it can't be not

1211
01:35:05.079 --> 01:35:11.840
one of us. And so he
lingered over there working even though there were

1212
01:35:12.159 --> 01:35:19.720
lips on the screen. So you
have the psychology he needed money as well

1213
01:35:20.680 --> 01:35:26.039
for his lifestyle. Yeah, we'll
leave that side of me. That's a

1214
01:35:26.079 --> 01:35:28.680
whole different story, the kinky side, but how he used the money.

1215
01:35:29.239 --> 01:35:33.720
But he was also a split I
don't want to say with personality, but

1216
01:35:34.600 --> 01:35:39.199
he was deeply religious and then on
the other side, he was the Devil's

1217
01:35:39.239 --> 01:35:42.600
mate. He was an opus stain
member, wasn't he? Yeah, yes,

1218
01:35:42.920 --> 01:35:45.600
and Alton McLean. But at the
same time, you know, he

1219
01:35:45.600 --> 01:35:51.880
spent a lot of money on an
exotic dancer, which which she says they

1220
01:35:53.000 --> 01:35:58.640
never consummated a relationship if you will, so I don't know. But well,

1221
01:35:58.760 --> 01:36:00.119
the worst part, I mean this
in the record them. This is

1222
01:36:00.159 --> 01:36:05.279
again not something that came up,
but you know, he he videos his

1223
01:36:05.399 --> 01:36:10.520
wife they're having sex, and he
sent it over to his neighbor. I

1224
01:36:10.600 --> 01:36:14.119
mean it's like, what planet are
you on? Yeah, So it's like

1225
01:36:14.560 --> 01:36:18.760
there's there's things rolling around on that
head that I mean, I think I'll

1226
01:36:18.800 --> 01:36:24.840
defer to psychiatry. So when you
get into espionazed cases, is there there's

1227
01:36:24.920 --> 01:36:30.399
really really they're not the first they
fall in these pockets. The last category

1228
01:36:30.520 --> 01:36:40.279
is coercion. Right, and despite
the movies and now I'll wait some CIA

1229
01:36:40.359 --> 01:36:43.560
person will correct me on it.
If so, I want to hear more

1230
01:36:43.600 --> 01:36:47.920
about their story, and that is
that wasn't CIA style. I can't remember

1231
01:36:48.000 --> 01:36:53.800
a case where they came and said
we're going to go blackmail this despite we

1232
01:36:53.880 --> 01:36:56.920
didn't have to. We had people
who wanted to come to us, or

1233
01:36:57.039 --> 01:37:00.119
how would you like to how do
you like to have a college fund that

1234
01:37:00.279 --> 01:37:02.960
up for you? Right, you
know there weren't the honey pots, weren't

1235
01:37:03.279 --> 01:37:10.800
really creates a hostile asset. So, but on the other side, I

1236
01:37:10.880 --> 01:37:14.439
mean the most famous case again come
back to the novels, as you were

1237
01:37:14.479 --> 01:37:18.760
saying, sometimes you can look out, but the correct Carla is Marcus Wolf.

1238
01:37:19.000 --> 01:37:23.680
Marcus Wolf was the head of East
German service during the Cold War,

1239
01:37:23.920 --> 01:37:27.720
and by the way, Putin was
in East Germany at the same time.

1240
01:37:28.359 --> 01:37:30.920
I'm not saying he met him,
but it probably, you know, it

1241
01:37:31.079 --> 01:37:34.960
was a formative in his own thinking. But there was a book and a

1242
01:37:35.039 --> 01:37:39.840
movie called I think, I hope
I'm right, Red Sparrows, so in

1243
01:37:40.000 --> 01:37:45.560
there. First of all, Marcus
Wolf had one hundred thousand spies. I

1244
01:37:45.640 --> 01:37:50.000
mean, I don't know how to
keep track of though that's well above the

1245
01:37:50.159 --> 01:37:54.039
US average. I just want to
tell you that he was patting the books.

1246
01:37:54.720 --> 01:37:57.600
Well, I don't know who he's
patting the books, but he But

1247
01:37:59.800 --> 01:38:01.199
I'll leave it at that. Well, there's agents. There's agents, probably

1248
01:38:01.279 --> 01:38:05.279
every doorman, every in other words, he had a network. It was

1249
01:38:05.840 --> 01:38:11.079
a domestic He wasn't working in a
foreign country with one hundred thousands, but

1250
01:38:11.159 --> 01:38:15.800
he had one hundred thousand domestically.
But they used honey traps and we went

1251
01:38:15.840 --> 01:38:20.640
to school, we learn how to
seduce people. So why because we would

1252
01:38:20.720 --> 01:38:26.279
like to show you the the the
gulags in Russia. We want to show

1253
01:38:26.279 --> 01:38:29.760
you. We're going to try and
sell you this product of the crepit economy.

1254
01:38:29.800 --> 01:38:32.920
Right, they didn't have that,
so they they did. They did

1255
01:38:33.079 --> 01:38:36.399
resort more to coercion. They had
volunteers, and we were just talking about

1256
01:38:36.479 --> 01:38:42.359
some of them. But I just
it just seemed not to be the It

1257
01:38:42.439 --> 01:38:48.640
wasn't necessary, and I think it'd
have a hard time passing the smell test.

1258
01:38:48.840 --> 01:38:51.760
And then you know, you go
down to Congress and let me show

1259
01:38:51.760 --> 01:38:55.479
you all these pictures. It's like, yeah, okay, but right,

1260
01:38:56.720 --> 01:38:59.239
you have to go back to my
constituent. You know, I know one

1261
01:38:59.279 --> 01:39:02.439
of the things, I mean,
we're we're already at like an hour and

1262
01:39:02.600 --> 01:39:06.199
forty minutes, and we don't know
where we could be last time. Maybe

1263
01:39:06.199 --> 01:39:11.039
we go to flyve. I'm happy
to go to five. But I know

1264
01:39:11.119 --> 01:39:14.600
we wanted to kind of talk about
like the DGI. But but one of

1265
01:39:14.600 --> 01:39:17.800
the things I want to ask you
about, because we've talked about the espionage

1266
01:39:17.880 --> 01:39:26.600
game and these these double agents or
these these traders, but I want to

1267
01:39:26.600 --> 01:39:33.640
ask you about the present and the
future of espionage and along like what keeps

1268
01:39:33.680 --> 01:39:39.680
you awake at night? And along
with that idea, are you worried about

1269
01:39:39.720 --> 01:39:46.079
sort of ideological influence in like our
young people now them growing up in the

1270
01:39:46.199 --> 01:39:53.239
intelligence world. Do you think that
plays into the future of espionage? Yeah,

1271
01:39:53.399 --> 01:39:56.840
so I think you've got three questions, yes, yeah, which should

1272
01:39:56.880 --> 01:40:00.520
take us to three hours. So
if I remember all three, let's start

1273
01:40:00.560 --> 01:40:06.359
with the maybe we'll start I'm afraid
if I do the first one, because

1274
01:40:06.479 --> 01:40:10.800
what case we awaken night is a
big story, And then we have what

1275
01:40:10.960 --> 01:40:15.640
will influence? I will let you
answer any of those in any order you

1276
01:40:15.720 --> 01:40:18.840
want, the priority you'd like to
get them, let's just do the first.

1277
01:40:18.920 --> 01:40:23.920
Witch in the middle. The intelligent
world has changed so much, the

1278
01:40:24.000 --> 01:40:28.600
speed of it is breathtaking. I'm
not one hundred years old. I'm getting

1279
01:40:28.600 --> 01:40:33.399
there. But when I first joined
the agency there were people abroad. What

1280
01:40:33.520 --> 01:40:36.840
you did is you wrote a long
message because you couldn't write a short message

1281
01:40:36.840 --> 01:40:42.479
because you didn't have bandwidth. You'd
write your message, cut it in half,

1282
01:40:43.159 --> 01:40:45.720
mail one half in one week.
You would have funny words to take

1283
01:40:45.800 --> 01:40:49.600
out your name Dave. They'd say
X one right, and then it said

1284
01:40:49.680 --> 01:40:53.600
the next one in the following week. You glue it together. That's the

1285
01:40:53.800 --> 01:40:58.560
speed of which intelligence was moving.
Right in the seventies, you got bandwidth

1286
01:40:58.600 --> 01:41:00.399
and then you got cables over twenty
two pages long. And in the middle

1287
01:41:00.399 --> 01:41:03.359
of it they said that the office
car was dropped in the river. And

1288
01:41:03.760 --> 01:41:08.359
by then you didn't bother reading it, so you were able to get the

1289
01:41:08.520 --> 01:41:15.640
information. But the idea of having
the magic of an iPhone and be able

1290
01:41:15.680 --> 01:41:19.000
to click it GP chat and say
tell me about this, tell me about

1291
01:41:19.039 --> 01:41:26.000
that. The world abroad, they're
called chief a station commander in the British

1292
01:41:26.039 --> 01:41:30.439
Service. Why you have to make
the decisions because there's no time for Washington

1293
01:41:30.479 --> 01:41:36.880
to get back to you. The
power was so social media technology digital intelligence

1294
01:41:36.920 --> 01:41:43.399
starts with the spun make in the
satellite, so the speed and AI and

1295
01:41:43.680 --> 01:41:48.000
so, and even the targeting,
so you have to move fast and it's

1296
01:41:48.119 --> 01:41:54.840
changing so rapidly. The one saving
grace that I want to bring from the

1297
01:41:54.960 --> 01:42:01.239
past we have to be careful who
don't outrun human because and we talked about

1298
01:42:01.279 --> 01:42:05.159
this the last time, and I
won't go back over it too much.

1299
01:42:05.359 --> 01:42:12.960
Other than with all that information,
you also get conventional with them and you're

1300
01:42:13.239 --> 01:42:18.760
not really using primary sources, and
sometimes decisions are made like Hamas going in

1301
01:42:18.920 --> 01:42:24.560
Israel was missed because they didn't have
the human sources. I think in the

1302
01:42:24.680 --> 01:42:29.239
private sector, I'm starting to feel
a renewal interest because there's so much confusing

1303
01:42:29.600 --> 01:42:32.920
and confusion. They're asking for ground
truth more in terms of investing, and

1304
01:42:33.000 --> 01:42:41.760
so I think the agency is being
driven that way as well. The problem

1305
01:42:41.960 --> 01:42:45.359
is you can't operate the way you
used to operate because I'll be able to

1306
01:42:45.560 --> 01:42:48.159
You can't tell me here's a card, call this number, or I'm going

1307
01:42:48.239 --> 01:42:53.479
to tell you I'm going to Chicago
when I'm going to you the drones on

1308
01:42:53.600 --> 01:42:56.279
top of you. Go practice your
surveill and training all you want. You

1309
01:42:56.279 --> 01:42:59.640
won't even see it coming right,
So how are you going to operate.

1310
01:43:00.000 --> 01:43:03.399
It's this radical movement and that has
to take place. But I'm saying,

1311
01:43:03.439 --> 01:43:06.720
hold on to the field. I
know best the things we're talking about today.

1312
01:43:08.239 --> 01:43:11.760
Those sources can save you a lot
of time and trouble. Okay,

1313
01:43:13.720 --> 01:43:20.880
I wouldn't take the young and the
ideology. The edge we still have with

1314
01:43:21.039 --> 01:43:30.079
what I'm going to talk about keeps
be awake is we need to preserve And

1315
01:43:30.119 --> 01:43:31.560
as I said earlier on, if
you go out in this country, you'll

1316
01:43:31.600 --> 01:43:33.960
still find a lot of support for
CIA. You're going to find a lot

1317
01:43:34.000 --> 01:43:42.479
of support for American So we with
the young people, you know, we

1318
01:43:42.600 --> 01:43:49.800
hope we imbued them with this.
And that is just how valuable precious democracy

1319
01:43:49.960 --> 01:43:55.239
is. And I lived in Chilean
and it was as a young man,

1320
01:43:56.520 --> 01:44:01.479
and I watched a communist system in
the process of being and taking over lands,

1321
01:44:01.600 --> 01:44:05.520
and you know, again people being
fearful and leaving. And then I

1322
01:44:05.560 --> 01:44:13.920
saw a right wing fascist or and
if you like, the boot steps system.

1323
01:44:14.920 --> 01:44:18.880
And I landed in Miami and the
cab driver started ripping in the Richard

1324
01:44:18.960 --> 01:44:24.159
Dixon and I'm sitting there laughing inside. It wasn't about Richard Dixon that that

1325
01:44:24.399 --> 01:44:28.920
cab driver thought he could talk to
a stranger that way about the President of

1326
01:44:28.960 --> 01:44:32.319
United States, he'd be dead right. So what I'm saying, I was,

1327
01:44:32.359 --> 01:44:38.359
in fact vaccinated with what we take
for granted or liberties and freedoms,

1328
01:44:39.039 --> 01:44:43.800
and people don't understand we need to
go back and study civics, the Constitution,

1329
01:44:44.319 --> 01:44:49.319
separation of powers, what it is
that's underneath the flag. So coming

1330
01:44:49.359 --> 01:44:56.960
back to the idealogy, there's no
counter ideology, right, So I think

1331
01:44:57.920 --> 01:45:03.560
I'm hoping that somehow we rally around
this. I think we will. We've

1332
01:45:03.600 --> 01:45:08.680
been through there's been periods where this
has been challenged in the United States.

1333
01:45:08.760 --> 01:45:11.239
We've had Civil War. I mean, it's not as though it's been one

1334
01:45:11.319 --> 01:45:15.079
smooth ride. So I'm not losing
too much step about it. I do

1335
01:45:15.239 --> 01:45:20.039
worry about what they're getting in school. And again, I taught school for

1336
01:45:20.119 --> 01:45:25.079
four years in high school, and
I can honestly tell you I wasn't politicized.

1337
01:45:25.079 --> 01:45:27.319
In other words, I didn't get
it, and I was teaching history.

1338
01:45:27.399 --> 01:45:30.079
It was here's history, right,
I mean, And I wasn't trying

1339
01:45:30.119 --> 01:45:34.640
to let me pass on this is
what I believe, right, So I

1340
01:45:34.760 --> 01:45:40.479
think there's a little too much of
that, as I understand that the other

1341
01:45:40.600 --> 01:45:45.640
side isn't really selling the theology,
but she and the others they have a

1342
01:45:45.760 --> 01:45:49.199
new world vision and let's see if
they can sell it, which is,

1343
01:45:50.520 --> 01:45:54.800
you know, we're going to give
you order. You know, we've got

1344
01:45:54.800 --> 01:45:58.159
a lot of order, and trains
are going to run on time. You

1345
01:45:58.199 --> 01:46:02.079
won't have any disturbances, but you
might your whole family might be in exile.

1346
01:46:02.279 --> 01:46:05.920
Right, So, but they are
trying to come up with a new

1347
01:46:06.039 --> 01:46:12.680
order, which is my segue into
what keeps me awakeed. Yeah, So

1348
01:46:15.439 --> 01:46:19.159
for many years I thought, well, where would be the flashpoint, where

1349
01:46:19.239 --> 01:46:24.800
would be something that would rock the
earth? Right? So Indian Pakistan.

1350
01:46:24.880 --> 01:46:29.880
I always kept an eye on Indian
Pakistan because they have the equal amount of

1351
01:46:30.039 --> 01:46:38.239
nuclear weapons, powerful in almost matching
ways. They've been to war three times

1352
01:46:38.279 --> 01:46:43.439
since World War Two, so there's
been long standing divisions from the day they

1353
01:46:43.479 --> 01:46:46.640
were separated. So it would there
be a misjudgment and a nuclear weapon could

1354
01:46:46.680 --> 01:46:53.439
go off. So I was concerned, not because Korea doesn't have exactly that

1355
01:46:53.640 --> 01:46:57.720
same North Korea doesn't have that same
challenge. So that was where I thought

1356
01:46:57.760 --> 01:47:01.640
of it, and I think both
of those society have moved on. I

1357
01:47:01.760 --> 01:47:06.640
think those prospects are lower. Need
to keep an eye on it. Right

1358
01:47:06.720 --> 01:47:11.119
now. It doesn't bother me.
I don't wake up in the middle of

1359
01:47:11.119 --> 01:47:16.880
the night. What I do find
that's really troubling me at the moment is

1360
01:47:16.960 --> 01:47:20.439
I think we're being challenged one more
time. You know, I'm a cold

1361
01:47:20.520 --> 01:47:26.920
warrior. I saw it grew up
in a generation where there was a communist

1362
01:47:27.000 --> 01:47:32.319
block opposed to the democratic West.
There was a real struggle, I mean

1363
01:47:32.560 --> 01:47:38.159
about who was going to which system
was going to prevail. And we did

1364
01:47:38.279 --> 01:47:44.680
prevail, and there was a proximary
candid for a while where we actually where

1365
01:47:44.760 --> 01:47:48.880
the big We could be the big
force in the world and hopefully for good

1366
01:47:49.479 --> 01:47:56.359
I'm not saying without flaws, right, And it looked like an opportunity.

1367
01:47:56.840 --> 01:47:59.640
And you know, if you go
to the Clinton administration and he looked at

1368
01:47:59.680 --> 01:48:03.560
well are there big challenges? Well, Haiti you were going to made Haiti

1369
01:48:03.800 --> 01:48:10.079
Ireland was an issue, I mean, and it did have the Eastern Europe.

1370
01:48:10.199 --> 01:48:15.920
So but by today's standard, that's
not mind boggling, right, Okay,

1371
01:48:15.199 --> 01:48:21.479
right, And as I said in
the book, what I've anticipated is

1372
01:48:21.600 --> 01:48:25.680
with me, it was not that
I wanted to see that happen. You

1373
01:48:25.840 --> 01:48:33.840
have a very strong China, you
have a very aggressive and well armed Ran,

1374
01:48:34.560 --> 01:48:42.039
you have North Korea, and you
had Russia. Now they were all

1375
01:48:42.880 --> 01:48:48.720
sort of in that same area.
The war with Ukraine has rocked the system.

1376
01:48:49.000 --> 01:48:54.960
This isn't about Ukraine and Russia.
It's not of Israel and Hamas.

1377
01:48:55.399 --> 01:49:00.279
There is a reshuffling of the deck
that's happening now. These kind of trees

1378
01:49:00.319 --> 01:49:08.640
are working together. North Korea is
providing missile technology that's helping Russia. The

1379
01:49:08.760 --> 01:49:15.359
Iranians are providing the drones. You
know, the biggest trading partner now with

1380
01:49:15.520 --> 01:49:23.079
Russia is China. People are Russians
are studying Mandarin. Right, they're not

1381
01:49:23.279 --> 01:49:26.960
coming to Russia is no longer looking
New York. We need to wake up,

1382
01:49:27.279 --> 01:49:29.920
you know. We're thinking that somehow
that we bring them back. This

1383
01:49:30.119 --> 01:49:32.640
was my view, bring them back
to Europe. Right, No, this

1384
01:49:32.920 --> 01:49:41.319
is now a block and they're friends
that are autocratic, so we're not We're

1385
01:49:41.479 --> 01:49:45.399
looking I don't know what the policy
strategy is in the back room, but

1386
01:49:45.720 --> 01:49:49.880
I think we tend to look at
these as if this is all very one

1387
01:49:49.960 --> 01:49:57.399
to one at hot I believe when
I told you when I went to China

1388
01:49:57.560 --> 01:50:01.159
to buy weapons, they gave me
a discount because we were fighting the Russians.

1389
01:50:01.760 --> 01:50:04.840
And I said, at the time, I think there's long long standing

1390
01:50:05.520 --> 01:50:10.720
Tensionaire I would tell you today they'd
raise it two dollars. There was that

1391
01:50:10.920 --> 01:50:16.479
relationship as getting more and more important
to both of them. The struggle with

1392
01:50:16.600 --> 01:50:20.439
Russia was often about Iran. Who
could control Iran? If you remember the

1393
01:50:20.560 --> 01:50:26.319
child and all of this. The
Russians always had their eye on the run.

1394
01:50:27.840 --> 01:50:32.399
Weird looking at a block that is
at least the size and dimension with

1395
01:50:32.600 --> 01:50:40.119
much more deadly force. My view, and I was on record when Putin

1396
01:50:40.479 --> 01:50:45.920
went into Ukraine, and that was
he had sowed the seeds of his own

1397
01:50:45.960 --> 01:50:49.119
demise. He was a weak country. He had just shown it. He

1398
01:50:49.239 --> 01:50:54.079
put it, and then he put
his army in there, which was a

1399
01:50:55.680 --> 01:51:03.840
unanticipated ragtag operations. Things aren't constant. My assumption, hope was that we

1400
01:51:03.880 --> 01:51:09.159
would stay the course. We're now
two years in there. They went to

1401
01:51:09.239 --> 01:51:13.439
flight Zelensky out and we thought that
they were Russians would roll them over.

1402
01:51:14.199 --> 01:51:16.920
The Ukrainians stood up tall as I
go into my second books say they would.

1403
01:51:18.039 --> 01:51:24.760
But we've had a long delay we
were not providing. It wasn't critical

1404
01:51:24.760 --> 01:51:28.760
of what we were providing because I
understood there was again this let's not cause

1405
01:51:28.800 --> 01:51:31.319
world War three, where I'm coming
back saying, you're not going to cause

1406
01:51:31.399 --> 01:51:36.039
World War three. You better start
moving fast or better with everything you can

1407
01:51:36.119 --> 01:51:41.319
possibly be put into it. Because
what has happened with Russia that RG type

1408
01:51:41.680 --> 01:51:45.239
army, those tanks that were broken
down, they went on a war footing.

1409
01:51:46.600 --> 01:51:50.760
Putin has changed his country into a
war fighting machine aligned with Russia.

1410
01:51:51.479 --> 01:51:57.520
They are now producing new equipment and
with the help of our technology, has

1411
01:51:57.600 --> 01:52:02.199
extolen so much from the West right
so that that old army is getting stronger.

1412
01:52:02.439 --> 01:52:09.239
And we were slow. And this
is the dysfunctionality of our political system

1413
01:52:09.399 --> 01:52:14.039
here that we weren't able to see
this. We're not able to see that.

1414
01:52:14.119 --> 01:52:16.359
We have to take care of the
border and we have this looming looming

1415
01:52:16.439 --> 01:52:19.119
crisis this country. You'll be able
to take care of both of us.

1416
01:52:20.479 --> 01:52:26.199
My concern now is we've passed sixty
one billion dollars. That is not trivial.

1417
01:52:27.279 --> 01:52:31.159
They won't be able to spend half
of it this year. Why because

1418
01:52:32.079 --> 01:52:36.840
the things they need are not viable. There's not enough one fifty, So

1419
01:52:38.359 --> 01:52:43.760
we are not in this the way
that the opposition is. So what keeps

1420
01:52:43.840 --> 01:52:46.960
me awake at night is I see
looming. I have an article coming out

1421
01:52:47.039 --> 01:52:51.840
in a it's a book, and
one of fiftieth out of my book where

1422
01:52:51.960 --> 01:52:56.720
I see this as the new core
word. This is actually a block that's

1423
01:52:56.760 --> 01:53:02.399
getting strong, it's more cohesive,
and we're here thinking that somehow as you

1424
01:53:02.560 --> 01:53:08.760
grain, is it relevant or not. We've always had an isolation in stream,

1425
01:53:09.680 --> 01:53:12.560
but boy, our times have passed. If you think you can sit

1426
01:53:12.680 --> 01:53:16.640
here and watch this group get stronger
and stronger and are not going to have

1427
01:53:16.760 --> 01:53:24.720
to confront it. So I understand
the reluctance, but we have to look

1428
01:53:24.880 --> 01:53:30.520
beyond. My view is if we
could hold long enough, Putin would go

1429
01:53:30.800 --> 01:53:33.800
because he doesn't have a party like
she, he doesn't have an ideology,

1430
01:53:33.920 --> 01:53:39.760
and his own people would say let's
walk him out the door. We blew

1431
01:53:39.840 --> 01:53:44.800
wind back into his sales because he
was saying, you won't stay, you

1432
01:53:44.920 --> 01:53:47.840
won't stay. That was his key
argument, and so we put the sixty

1433
01:53:47.920 --> 01:53:51.319
one million. It's like, do
you think they're going to still stay?

1434
01:53:51.520 --> 01:53:56.239
I mean, in other words,
it wasn't enough to bring back the argument

1435
01:53:56.359 --> 01:54:00.880
so that he would be weaker inside. The clock on his minds does not

1436
01:54:00.239 --> 01:54:03.720
start until we get a stalemate,
and we're not going to get a stale

1437
01:54:03.760 --> 01:54:06.359
man. Now, there's a lot
of people say, well, come the

1438
01:54:06.439 --> 01:54:12.600
middle of twenty five, the Ukrainians
will be tired and ready for concessions,

1439
01:54:12.680 --> 01:54:16.640
and Putent's going to agree to them. And my Ukrainian friends, I say

1440
01:54:16.680 --> 01:54:20.319
to them, that's what you think
may happen. Putin's going to say,

1441
01:54:21.000 --> 01:54:24.640
z Linci steps down. I want
this, I want this, I want

1442
01:54:24.680 --> 01:54:30.279
this. He will come out with
looking so much stronger, and he will

1443
01:54:30.359 --> 01:54:35.439
have an industrialized part of Russia.
And we have helped create this problem and

1444
01:54:36.119 --> 01:54:42.760
whether I understand it how we got
there, but I'd want to put the

1445
01:54:43.039 --> 01:54:47.760
fire alarm on. This is moving
faster and we are soon going to be

1446
01:54:47.880 --> 01:54:54.359
confronted where the gap is going to
be huge, huge, And I don't

1447
01:54:54.479 --> 01:54:59.439
feel like you know, there was
an article by a woman who said,

1448
01:54:59.439 --> 01:55:02.039
look, I think I see the
problems, not this, but see one

1449
01:55:02.079 --> 01:55:08.000
doesn't never understand that. And I
have a trouble because I really feel this

1450
01:55:08.319 --> 01:55:12.119
coming and I'm convinced of it,
and yes I could be wrong, but

1451
01:55:12.239 --> 01:55:16.239
the details of what I'm reading day
in and day out suggests that we have

1452
01:55:16.600 --> 01:55:24.359
a real dangerous situation. Let me
just one last thing. Yeah, the

1453
01:55:24.479 --> 01:55:30.840
fact that we're not doing this,
she's timetable for taking Taiwan is different.

1454
01:55:30.960 --> 01:55:34.680
His calculation is different. Putins is
different, and that is they're not coming.

1455
01:55:35.720 --> 01:55:41.199
They're not coming. They're not going
to stay the chorus, and they're

1456
01:55:41.239 --> 01:55:45.520
going to get more aggressive, not
less aggressive, and so will North Korea,

1457
01:55:45.520 --> 01:55:47.479
and so are the Iranians. There's
a stream, and we can talk

1458
01:55:47.880 --> 01:55:51.399
about this the next time. They
keeps you awake. The stream within our

1459
01:55:51.479 --> 01:55:57.000
governing class that somehow thinks that we
can make a deal with Iran. I'm

1460
01:55:57.119 --> 01:56:01.920
just here the safety. We're looking
at something formidable, and I believe we're

1461
01:56:02.039 --> 01:56:08.079
up to it, but it starts
with recognizing the problem. And I don't

1462
01:56:08.119 --> 01:56:12.920
think I don't think the issue has
been joined. We've really treated them with

1463
01:56:13.079 --> 01:56:18.640
kid gloves over the years, haven't
we, Or like an unreturned faith,

1464
01:56:18.800 --> 01:56:23.560
I guess, or idealism. I
don't know what you would call it.

1465
01:56:25.520 --> 01:56:28.720
I'm trying to think of labels that
I'm going to be careful that. But

1466
01:56:29.359 --> 01:56:31.520
to some degree Russia, I would
say, maybe there was benign neglect.

1467
01:56:31.560 --> 01:56:36.079
What was said, the government fell, there was an opportunity to move in

1468
01:56:38.000 --> 01:56:42.920
for whatever reason, private sector of
government. It wasn't that we tried to

1469
01:56:43.000 --> 01:56:46.079
undermine it. There might have been
an opportunity and putin year by year.

1470
01:56:47.119 --> 01:56:51.159
No, he's not worried about US
or Europe, and they've all found ways

1471
01:56:51.239 --> 01:56:56.039
to work around it. Yeah,
none of them are suffering from the sanctions

1472
01:56:56.359 --> 01:57:00.600
the way that it makes a difference
in this type of struggle. China wasn't

1473
01:57:00.640 --> 01:57:05.760
benign the bug. We invested heavily. We made their army, and I

1474
01:57:05.920 --> 01:57:11.159
understand how we got there. It
was a hypothesis that once they had all

1475
01:57:11.239 --> 01:57:14.960
these goodies, they would then become
a democratic state. You have the strongest

1476
01:57:15.600 --> 01:57:19.800
Communist party, strongest leader of the
Communist Party, and the United Block there

1477
01:57:20.640 --> 01:57:26.600
and hard line both of them.
All of them believe we are the enemy.

1478
01:57:27.520 --> 01:57:30.680
Their propaganda message is an integrated one. They're all saying the same thing,

1479
01:57:32.520 --> 01:57:40.840
and that is we are the enemy. But I think they smell weakness.

1480
01:57:41.119 --> 01:57:45.920
And I'm not talking about the administration. I'm talking about our body politic

1481
01:57:46.479 --> 01:57:51.239
and how we view the world.
And I think we're thinking that somehow,

1482
01:57:53.119 --> 01:57:57.159
you know, life when the United
States can go on and leave it be

1483
01:57:57.279 --> 01:58:00.920
as it is. Europe is very
worried because they've been invaded over and over

1484
01:58:01.000 --> 01:58:04.800
again. Their problem is they don't
have an army. In other words,

1485
01:58:04.840 --> 01:58:08.520
what are they going to do?
And they're starting to build up and they're

1486
01:58:08.560 --> 01:58:14.239
building up NATO, so they're building, but it's not going to match what

1487
01:58:14.319 --> 01:58:18.319
we're looking at this other group.
It's not nearly as aggressive or war oriented.

1488
01:58:18.760 --> 01:58:23.119
So that's what keeps me awake at
night and not in a lot of

1489
01:58:23.159 --> 01:58:28.920
times during the day I sort of
twinge with and it's not. I usually

1490
01:58:28.960 --> 01:58:31.359
say it's my grandkids that keep me
awake at night, and it is,

1491
01:58:31.520 --> 01:58:36.720
but it's because this isn't necessarily your
problem. This is a long legs right,

1492
01:58:38.439 --> 01:58:43.800
and we have to get this is
years. This is not a five

1493
01:58:43.920 --> 01:58:47.239
year problem. We're looking at a
shift, a big shift that we're going

1494
01:58:47.279 --> 01:58:51.800
to be dealing with. So we
have to construct our build our army accordingly.

1495
01:58:53.359 --> 01:58:57.600
We have to have our body politics
united about what this is, right,

1496
01:58:57.800 --> 01:59:00.319
which the Republican Democrats, if they
agreed, sit down and say this

1497
01:59:00.520 --> 01:59:04.800
is the problem, let's cut the
BS out and let's just sit down and

1498
01:59:04.880 --> 01:59:08.600
start to figure out how we're going
to do. Do you see this Jack

1499
01:59:08.640 --> 01:59:13.880
as like the new axis powers Iran, Russia, China, maybe dovetailing with

1500
01:59:14.000 --> 01:59:18.840
North Korea? And is this really
I mean, the way you're talking about

1501
01:59:18.840 --> 01:59:24.640
it sounds like we're already in a
global war. That's recalibrating. That's power.

1502
01:59:24.960 --> 01:59:27.520
Yeah, that's where I am.
It's a balance of power. It's

1503
01:59:27.600 --> 01:59:31.439
team democracy, team autocrat. Now
it's not just them. They have friends,

1504
01:59:32.319 --> 01:59:35.319
a lot of autocrats, a lot
of governments, and they're looking in

1505
01:59:35.319 --> 01:59:41.880
the United States and you're making a
calculation. Do I bet that they're going

1506
01:59:41.960 --> 01:59:46.000
to be there? Yeah? Right? So is look at what China is

1507
01:59:46.039 --> 01:59:49.399
doing around around Look at the Russians
are there. They're trying to build that.

1508
01:59:49.800 --> 01:59:54.640
This is this is the old containment. We bought them everywhere where they

1509
01:59:54.760 --> 01:59:58.720
tried to make an encroachment and sell
communism. It's not as blatant. In

1510
01:59:58.760 --> 02:00:00.720
other words, it's not communist.
What are they selling? Their new view,

1511
02:00:00.960 --> 02:00:04.960
the new worldview. We're losing market
share, right whatever you want to

1512
02:00:05.319 --> 02:00:09.920
however you want to look at it. And they're in cahoust together in a

1513
02:00:10.000 --> 02:00:14.880
way that is going to those who
think that somehow the China and I used

1514
02:00:14.880 --> 02:00:19.479
to be among those until we have
gone. This crossing the border February twenty

1515
02:00:19.560 --> 02:00:26.880
second, twenty two was a game
changer. But it's it's not about you.

1516
02:00:27.119 --> 02:00:30.039
I mean, Ukraine is vitally important
for the people. They're suffering so

1517
02:00:30.199 --> 02:00:35.640
much, but it's really this new
structure and that's a big deal. You

1518
02:00:35.800 --> 02:00:42.239
have to organize accordingly around that.
How is it going to differ this time?

1519
02:00:42.359 --> 02:00:45.560
Like I made the allusion to World
War Two, We've talked a lot

1520
02:00:45.600 --> 02:00:49.399
about the Cold War. How is
this one different? It perhaps isn't different,

1521
02:00:49.479 --> 02:00:54.920
except it's more dangerous. Yeah,
we have a much bigger we can

1522
02:00:55.199 --> 02:00:58.560
if you. One of the things
that's very scary when you look at the

1523
02:00:59.159 --> 02:01:03.319
well, the war going on between
Russia and Ukraine, there's a new war.

1524
02:01:03.880 --> 02:01:09.439
I saw a video the other day
of some Russians, different pictures of

1525
02:01:09.520 --> 02:01:13.279
Russian soldiers on the ground, running, running down the basement, hiding here,

1526
02:01:13.359 --> 02:01:15.560
hiding there, and next thing you
know, they disappear. The drone

1527
02:01:15.680 --> 02:01:20.560
just I don't know, five hundred
dollars right boom? Yeah, I mean

1528
02:01:23.359 --> 02:01:27.600
the Kindis magazine did a cover once, I want to say ten years ago.

1529
02:01:27.720 --> 02:01:30.760
It was instead of like the movie
Hitchcock, with birds all drones,

1530
02:01:31.560 --> 02:01:38.039
but that's what we're doing. War
fighting is different, and there there are

1531
02:01:38.199 --> 02:01:43.399
so many scary aspects of this and
how much damage we can do to each

1532
02:01:43.439 --> 02:01:45.960
other. Yeah, it's it's interesting
because you know a lot of people did

1533
02:01:46.000 --> 02:01:48.640
him to get on my high horses? No, but you asked me what

1534
02:01:49.439 --> 02:01:53.800
this is really strong business? You
know, a lot of people laughed at

1535
02:01:53.920 --> 02:01:59.640
Bush when he talked about the axis
of evil, right, but we're really

1536
02:01:59.800 --> 02:02:03.560
not like we're seeing sort of the
fruition of that now. Whether you call

1537
02:02:03.640 --> 02:02:06.760
them evil, whether you you know, you call it evil, it's it's

1538
02:02:06.880 --> 02:02:13.119
evil in the terms of it's the
antithesis of the American view. But I

1539
02:02:13.199 --> 02:02:18.960
think he was talking about relatively weak
states at the time. Now you're talking

1540
02:02:19.840 --> 02:02:26.119
this is where the transition from the
terrorist target, right, which also will

1541
02:02:26.159 --> 02:02:29.720
go back in history and look at
all of that. But right now this

1542
02:02:29.920 --> 02:02:34.399
is more similar to nineteen sure,
absolutely than it is to nineteen ninety.

1543
02:02:34.760 --> 02:02:39.720
Yeah, and absolutely. And I
just mean in the sense of the countries

1544
02:02:39.760 --> 02:02:42.960
that he named are the countries that
we're concerned about now, They just weren't

1545
02:02:43.279 --> 02:02:46.720
so much of a concern at that
time, right, because I thought it

1546
02:02:46.960 --> 02:02:51.680
wasn't he you're talking about Maybe I'm
missing the point here, but with Reagan

1547
02:02:53.079 --> 02:02:58.479
it was the accent right now.
But then the Bush was talking about Iraq

1548
02:02:58.720 --> 02:03:02.640
and terrorism. But I thought he
talked about Iran. Iran for yeah,

1549
02:03:02.760 --> 02:03:10.640
Iran, but yeah, they're not
in the same way. And it's not

1550
02:03:10.840 --> 02:03:14.920
just China and Russia. It's China
and Russia in tandem. Right, It's

1551
02:03:15.680 --> 02:03:18.560
Iran, Russia, China, random, it's North Korea, right and their

1552
02:03:18.640 --> 02:03:25.239
friends. That's different. That's really
that is an axis that is a counterweight.

1553
02:03:26.319 --> 02:03:30.439
And I think I start out in
like the first part of the book

1554
02:03:30.560 --> 02:03:33.199
with the defector of two thousand and
one who came out and said when he

1555
02:03:33.279 --> 02:03:40.000
joined the KGB, number one target
was the CIA, Number two was Natio.

1556
02:03:40.119 --> 02:03:44.720
Number three was China. Right,
this was KGV. Now today maybe

1557
02:03:44.920 --> 02:03:48.119
China is thought one, but when
he left it was the same, we're

1558
02:03:48.199 --> 02:03:53.960
the main enemy putin whatever. I
don't think he ever really thought of it.

1559
02:03:54.279 --> 02:03:59.279
He always felt a deep grudge because
of what happened to his services KGB

1560
02:03:59.520 --> 02:04:01.640
and the country tree. He was
going to reconstitute it. He's on a

1561
02:04:01.760 --> 02:04:09.079
mission, right, So I mean, I think I think there's a lot

1562
02:04:09.159 --> 02:04:15.359
of you know, a lot of
conviction here we have. So so here's

1563
02:04:15.399 --> 02:04:18.199
the thing. We have to have
you back at least we get the fourth

1564
02:04:18.319 --> 02:04:23.159
chapter at least once. We might
at least one more shot. Yeah,

1565
02:04:23.239 --> 02:04:26.359
we we're about halfway through the book. Now. We didn't do Haiti.

1566
02:04:26.479 --> 02:04:30.479
We didn't we didn't do Haiti.
We didn't do Yeah, we didn't do

1567
02:04:30.600 --> 02:04:34.640
the d g I. We didn't
talk about about uh, the French,

1568
02:04:34.920 --> 02:04:39.239
the Espiona with the French. Like, there is so much we have and

1569
02:04:39.319 --> 02:04:42.840
I'm telling everybody what a great job
you're doing. You're not getting half of

1570
02:04:42.920 --> 02:04:45.199
it, then we're horrible. We'll
get there, We'll get it's the booze

1571
02:04:45.239 --> 02:04:53.000
it. I feel like the man
left out the the group, but I

1572
02:04:53.119 --> 02:04:58.399
do. Okay, So we have
a couple of questions and unfortunately one of

1573
02:04:58.439 --> 02:05:01.279
them is about the Cuban DJ and
that's like a whole that's like a whole

1574
02:05:01.359 --> 02:05:05.720
episode on self. But so first
off, Wang Wang, thank you very

1575
02:05:05.800 --> 02:05:10.600
much. Ask if he can give
some insight on the Office of Global Access.

1576
02:05:14.439 --> 02:05:16.760
Tell me about the office so close, okay, so we he can't

1577
02:05:16.800 --> 02:05:20.159
give you any insight on the Office
of Global Access. I'm just saying this.

1578
02:05:20.560 --> 02:05:24.760
I really I'm not familiar. Yeah, I'm neither am I I'm not

1579
02:05:24.960 --> 02:05:29.359
either, So sorry about that one. Thanks for just you know, let

1580
02:05:29.439 --> 02:05:33.239
me I'll look into it. K
X, Thank you very much. And

1581
02:05:33.560 --> 02:05:38.920
this is so we did want to
get to this and we will next time

1582
02:05:39.000 --> 02:05:42.800
you come on because this is a
large topic. But if you want to

1583
02:05:42.840 --> 02:05:45.439
answer this is you know your opinion, please ask if he has an opinion

1584
02:05:45.479 --> 02:05:49.159
about the Cuban d g I and
their total penetration of US Cuban intelligence.

1585
02:05:49.399 --> 02:06:02.239
Great show. So there was a
Cuban agent who was arrested several years ago,

1586
02:06:02.399 --> 02:06:11.960
right, But what I found interesting
I think it was and she was

1587
02:06:12.039 --> 02:06:15.880
in d I, A a very
senior person in the Cuba business, very

1588
02:06:15.960 --> 02:06:21.920
respected, good scoring. She was
a idellogical recruitment. The GGI recruited her.

1589
02:06:23.359 --> 02:06:28.560
But what I found fascinating is somewhere
in her debriefing when after she was

1590
02:06:29.239 --> 02:06:33.960
apprehended, was oh, the DGI
has a lot of sources in the government.

1591
02:06:34.079 --> 02:06:38.399
Right. I have a lot of
respect for the DGI and a couple

1592
02:06:38.439 --> 02:06:43.119
of reasons. They had the fire
when the Soviet Union was you know,

1593
02:06:43.319 --> 02:06:49.960
basically stale. The Cubans were selling
in Latin America Revolution change down. Try.

1594
02:06:50.079 --> 02:06:55.000
They had a message, and they
spoke the language, They swim,

1595
02:06:55.199 --> 02:06:58.640
swam in the water. They they
weren't afraid to go to the university.

1596
02:06:58.720 --> 02:07:00.560
She was recruited, by the way, on Hopkins, I'd have to I

1597
02:07:00.640 --> 02:07:03.920
want to go look at some point
and figure out where they made the where

1598
02:07:03.960 --> 02:07:11.239
the Cuban DGI guy made the connection
with her. We're talking about Montesa.

1599
02:07:11.880 --> 02:07:16.000
So she she was the real thing, and she was illogical. She thought

1600
02:07:16.119 --> 02:07:21.119
that she identified so much with Cuba
that she wanted to help them, and

1601
02:07:21.279 --> 02:07:26.439
she provided very valuable information. But
that was a good recruitment. That's an

1602
02:07:26.960 --> 02:07:30.039
intelligence source covering you. You get
her, and you get her through the

1603
02:07:30.079 --> 02:07:36.960
old fashioned recruitment. And then more
recently we had ambassadorca ambassador American ambassador to

1604
02:07:38.000 --> 02:07:43.479
Bolivia, you know, twenty five
years but he was, uh, he

1605
02:07:43.640 --> 02:07:47.479
was an illogical recruitment as well.
These are not trivial recruitment, right,

1606
02:07:47.640 --> 02:07:54.760
and their long standing one. Right. So I would say that the Russians

1607
02:07:54.800 --> 02:07:58.520
weren't nearly as good as recruiting.
And we have a large you know,

1608
02:07:58.600 --> 02:08:01.159
we had the Cuban population, and
so there was water for them to swim

1609
02:08:01.279 --> 02:08:09.000
in, right, And so I
think because it's the island of Cuba has

1610
02:08:09.159 --> 02:08:13.439
never measured up, just like the
Soviet Union didn't measure up. China did

1611
02:08:13.520 --> 02:08:18.039
because we provided his investment there.
But what I'm saying, don't underestimate their

1612
02:08:18.079 --> 02:08:24.439
intelligence service, and they clearly have
good sources. Agy Remember we were going

1613
02:08:24.479 --> 02:08:26.840
to talk about phil Agi at some
point because he's in the book that's a

1614
02:08:26.920 --> 02:08:35.000
Cuban recruitment. He actually walked into
the Russians and they didn't trust them,

1615
02:08:35.399 --> 02:08:39.079
so they went to the Cubans and
they ran him and had very the notorious

1616
02:08:39.600 --> 02:08:43.760
effects. So I know we can't
talk a lot about it, but just

1617
02:08:43.880 --> 02:08:48.319
because Cuba is where it is and
Castro's gone, they were formidable adversary.

1618
02:08:50.319 --> 02:08:54.000
And you know, I'm hoping the
FBI is spending a lot of time because

1619
02:08:54.640 --> 02:09:01.399
there's so much distraction, rightfully,
so in what's going on in the Middle

1620
02:09:01.399 --> 02:09:05.720
East, in Iran, and it's
really you know, Cuba is not attacking

1621
02:09:05.840 --> 02:09:13.279
us militarily, so sometimes your resources
are you know, missuppropriate proportion proportion accordingly,

1622
02:09:13.520 --> 02:09:18.439
I thought, I thought I read
that one of the things about Montez

1623
02:09:18.760 --> 02:09:26.520
was it she did like openly talk
about, like poorly about America and positively

1624
02:09:26.760 --> 02:09:33.199
about like socialism or communism. I
thought that that was That's that's why they

1625
02:09:33.279 --> 02:09:37.039
found her. She was in the
university speaking that way. Now, my

1626
02:09:37.479 --> 02:09:41.640
sense is she went through the Philby
experience and toned it down. Okay,

1627
02:09:43.039 --> 02:09:45.760
and so in other words, I
don't think she was walking the hall of

1628
02:09:45.880 --> 02:09:50.079
the of the d I A if
so, let's talk to security office what

1629
02:09:50.159 --> 02:09:54.439
they're doing. In other words,
my point is she just like Philby,

1630
02:09:54.119 --> 02:09:58.640
she was there was a history if
they had gone back. Yeah, at

1631
02:09:58.680 --> 02:10:01.760
the university, it's a hell because
there are hardcore ideologue and then all of

1632
02:10:01.800 --> 02:10:07.600
a sudden it stops. You have
to know that does happen in life,

1633
02:10:07.920 --> 02:10:11.840
right, because you know this is
a Whitiger chamber case back in the McCarthy

1634
02:10:11.920 --> 02:10:16.640
eraror but sometimes you have an ideological
break. Sure, but better prove it

1635
02:10:16.760 --> 02:10:18.279
to me, right, prove it
to me. First of all, I'd

1636
02:10:18.319 --> 02:10:22.359
like to know that you had that, you know, I would not like

1637
02:10:22.479 --> 02:10:24.279
to not know that you had that
conversion, like not know you were a

1638
02:10:24.359 --> 02:10:28.680
communist. Right, But once I
know that, uh, you better really

1639
02:10:28.840 --> 02:10:35.960
prove it before you walk through the
halls of the intelligence commit So with you

1640
02:10:35.039 --> 02:10:39.359
know, obviously kids are kids,
and people, you know, they you

1641
02:10:39.439 --> 02:10:41.800
know the old saying, if you're
not a liberal when you're young, you

1642
02:10:41.880 --> 02:10:43.960
have no heart. If you're not
a conservat when you're old, you have

1643
02:10:43.079 --> 02:10:46.039
no brain. You know, like
like there are these sign to any of

1644
02:10:46.079 --> 02:10:50.119
the h not dragging me, yeah
no, but but there are these ideas

1645
02:10:50.199 --> 02:10:54.640
that you know, like you know, kids, young people are often influenced

1646
02:10:54.960 --> 02:11:03.199
you know by whatever that when the
intelligence agencies, when the FBI, when

1647
02:11:03.239 --> 02:11:07.680
they're looking to hire, especially with
social media being so prevalent. Now,

1648
02:11:07.079 --> 02:11:11.560
you know, there used to be
that question on the security clearance. I

1649
02:11:11.600 --> 02:11:15.720
don't know if it's still there.
But have you ever been or are you

1650
02:11:15.840 --> 02:11:18.079
now or have you ever been a
many a member of the Communist party?

1651
02:11:18.840 --> 02:11:28.760
Right, like, do you think
that agencies should like go back through people's

1652
02:11:28.800 --> 02:11:31.880
social media back? Like do you? I hope they are? I mean,

1653
02:11:31.880 --> 02:11:33.840
I do it my business. In
other words, if you come to

1654
02:11:33.880 --> 02:11:37.359
me and say, listen, I'm
about to make an acquisition of a company

1655
02:11:37.399 --> 02:11:41.279
in this country or wherever it is, you go into that social media,

1656
02:11:41.359 --> 02:11:46.079
pull everything or to pull apart the
background because you don't want to make a

1657
02:11:46.119 --> 02:11:50.760
mistake. Right, so much money
is riding on it. National security is

1658
02:11:50.760 --> 02:11:54.840
even a higher stake. So my
assumption is that we're using all the tools

1659
02:11:54.920 --> 02:11:58.960
you can to assess people. I
don't think we're going to have the problem

1660
02:12:00.439 --> 02:12:03.840
they had with Monte. I mean, I'm hoping that doesn't happen, because

1661
02:12:03.880 --> 02:12:07.840
I think there's falls, right,
someone misses the paper, they lost the

1662
02:12:07.880 --> 02:12:13.319
paper, but it's systemically I think
we're that's less likely. I think with

1663
02:12:13.479 --> 02:12:18.039
AI you're going to reduce that.
The more likely thing is you're going through

1664
02:12:18.079 --> 02:12:24.000
your career like ag and then you
switch to the other side, rather than

1665
02:12:24.199 --> 02:12:26.479
you were a communist and you get
a KGB guy to go. That's on

1666
02:12:26.600 --> 02:12:33.039
the lower end of the end of
the equation. Let me. I was

1667
02:12:33.119 --> 02:12:41.399
talking last night at dinner after this
speech about you know what's missing with some

1668
02:12:41.560 --> 02:12:46.119
of the young people, and again
there's a young person across the table.

1669
02:12:46.600 --> 02:12:50.640
I say, you know, we
need it's not there. For it's not

1670
02:12:50.880 --> 02:12:54.000
just there. I had to take
responsibility. But I'm not going to talk

1671
02:12:54.000 --> 02:12:56.960
about whether Jack Kennedy was a good
president not a good president. But the

1672
02:12:58.039 --> 02:13:01.920
one thing I can tell you for
sure is he was a charismatic one.

1673
02:13:01.960 --> 02:13:07.840
In other words, in the nineteen
fifties, you know, politicians were smoking

1674
02:13:07.960 --> 02:13:11.039
cigars in back room and precinc captains. You buy the boat and you get

1675
02:13:11.079 --> 02:13:13.920
your sister on the book who works
in the bank, and she can go.

1676
02:13:16.159 --> 02:13:20.119
When Kennedy ran, you just started
the media age and he brought this

1677
02:13:20.920 --> 02:13:26.000
bazaze with him. Okay, and
what happened in American politics. People went

1678
02:13:26.000 --> 02:13:28.479
into the Democratic Party, but they
went into the Republican Party. Young people

1679
02:13:28.520 --> 02:13:35.319
went in because working in the government
hell inspiring. Kenned be so I went

1680
02:13:35.399 --> 02:13:37.760
back to my old high school.
They wanted me to talk about the book.

1681
02:13:39.239 --> 02:13:43.840
Hardest audience, much easier than this
audience, a mess, harder fourteen

1682
02:13:43.840 --> 02:13:46.199
to eighteen year old kids, trying
to convince them to stay pay attention where

1683
02:13:46.319 --> 02:13:50.319
you'll find you interesting. But when
I talked to them afterwards, it wasn't

1684
02:13:50.359 --> 02:13:54.079
that they didn't want to go into
CIA, not want to go into yours

1685
02:13:54.159 --> 02:13:58.079
government. They brought like the twenty
of the best students. They don't call

1686
02:13:58.159 --> 02:14:01.239
them that, but that's when them
were going in anything in public service period,

1687
02:14:01.439 --> 02:14:05.960
military, police, teaching, doctors
they didn't want, I mean doctors

1688
02:14:07.000 --> 02:14:11.119
they did. Lawyers weren't on the
list either. It was all either technology

1689
02:14:11.319 --> 02:14:16.479
or addrestment. Banking. In other
words, there's I think we're running that

1690
02:14:16.640 --> 02:14:20.920
generation that came in with Kennedy and
both parties. I'm not saying it affected

1691
02:14:20.960 --> 02:14:24.520
them, just like Watergate made a
lot of journalists right, but it was

1692
02:14:24.600 --> 02:14:30.159
even more evasive with Kennedy has run
its course because all those people that came

1693
02:14:30.199 --> 02:14:35.319
in of public service. So what
we've been into is drought. Not that

1694
02:14:35.399 --> 02:14:39.920
they weren't good precedents, but you
haven't had a charisma around politics and public

1695
02:14:41.079 --> 02:14:45.359
service that young people say, wouldn't
it be today? There was such a

1696
02:14:45.439 --> 02:14:48.239
blow up in the House of Representatives. I mean it was my you know,

1697
02:14:48.960 --> 02:14:52.720
I don't care who's right or wrong. It's like you're a kid,

1698
02:14:52.800 --> 02:14:56.359
you're watching Wow. Why am I
going to get into that? It's not

1699
02:14:56.479 --> 02:15:01.960
aspiring? And I think, you
know, coming back to it, there's

1700
02:15:03.119 --> 02:15:07.680
a the earth. I mean,
we need you know, you need inspiration.

1701
02:15:09.399 --> 02:15:13.800
How do you change things? Now? Was he influencer? Jack Kennedy

1702
02:15:13.920 --> 02:15:18.640
completely ruined the hat industry with a
single inauguration. He didn't wear a hat

1703
02:15:18.720 --> 02:15:22.800
and that was the end of it. So that ability to influence society is

1704
02:15:24.159 --> 02:15:28.279
really high. There's an obligation of
leadership in every walk of life. So

1705
02:15:28.479 --> 02:15:35.439
coming back to a number of the
things we're talking about, there's some inspiration,

1706
02:15:37.239 --> 02:15:41.760
some vision about where we are and
how we get back to the level

1707
02:15:41.800 --> 02:15:48.479
of civility and cooperation and national security
jointness. And I mean when I went

1708
02:15:48.560 --> 02:15:54.079
down to Congress on Afghanistan and it
wasn't Republican Democrats, what work can we

1709
02:15:54.199 --> 02:15:58.199
do? How can we get this
done right? I mean, and they

1710
02:15:58.239 --> 02:16:01.840
would come and visit it, not
me, but they'd come to countries and

1711
02:16:01.880 --> 02:16:05.920
I'd be with they could they would
eat and drink together and talk together,

1712
02:16:05.000 --> 02:16:11.359
disagreed, but on national security there
was a lot more rhythm. Charlie Wilson,

1713
02:16:11.720 --> 02:16:16.119
you know, it's just it was. And we have to get we

1714
02:16:16.239 --> 02:16:18.479
have to find our way back.
We have to find leadership. And I

1715
02:16:18.560 --> 02:16:22.159
think it's every walk of life,
whether it's the media, the politics,

1716
02:16:22.279 --> 02:16:26.560
but we're up up against an adversary. I want to keep coming back to

1717
02:16:26.680 --> 02:16:31.199
that block. They've got a message. It's very clear. I mean,

1718
02:16:31.279 --> 02:16:35.120
there's no they're very specific about what
they're accomplished and what they're selling, and

1719
02:16:35.200 --> 02:16:37.719
then they're united and who's the enemy
and how they're going to address it.

1720
02:16:41.159 --> 02:16:43.840
I don't think they're as good as
salesman. Let me put it that because

1721
02:16:43.840 --> 02:16:46.280
I think the party is still right, so we can beat we can win

1722
02:16:46.360 --> 02:16:50.639
this one, but we're not going
to win it with wobbley Lee's and lack

1723
02:16:50.719 --> 02:16:54.000
of you know who's on first base
and you're going to be here, you're

1724
02:16:54.040 --> 02:17:00.520
not uncertainty. The worst thing that
creates weakness is uncertainty. What what's going

1725
02:17:00.600 --> 02:17:01.719
to happen? Are we going to
be with them? Not be with them?

1726
02:17:01.760 --> 02:17:05.440
So I don't mean to drag this
out, but it's I think it's

1727
02:17:05.719 --> 02:17:09.479
very I think we're the crisis.
I mean, you know, we're having

1728
02:17:09.479 --> 02:17:13.600
a good time tonight. My children
are having a good time. There's a

1729
02:17:13.719 --> 02:17:22.959
crisis afoot in the national security arena. Let's get through these questions with Oh,

1730
02:17:22.040 --> 02:17:26.399
that's all of them? Okay,
Yeah, we do have a couple.

1731
02:17:28.520 --> 02:17:31.799
The first one from m Corbin,
he asks, uh, there seems

1732
02:17:31.840 --> 02:17:35.920
to be nothing new under the sun
when it comes to the world's second oldest

1733
02:17:35.000 --> 02:17:41.559
profession. You had mentioned last episode
that the Directorate of Science and Technology was

1734
02:17:41.639 --> 02:17:46.639
your original goal. Where do you
think your career would have taken you within

1735
02:17:46.719 --> 02:17:50.159
the Directorate if you had gone that
route. Well, let me correct the

1736
02:17:50.239 --> 02:17:52.840
record, because I must I promise
I didn't have one of your Bourbon's.

1737
02:17:54.159 --> 02:17:56.840
It was really at the end of
my career the other wads. I went

1738
02:17:56.920 --> 02:18:01.639
in and I my DNA somehow fit. I loved what I've really belonged in

1739
02:18:01.719 --> 02:18:05.879
that, the operational part. But
I was also seized at the end of

1740
02:18:05.959 --> 02:18:11.719
my career of the because of the
counter narcotics experience and technology and all the

1741
02:18:11.840 --> 02:18:15.280
things. I actually was a little
bit of a pest early in my career

1742
02:18:15.360 --> 02:18:18.840
that they needed to do more.
So I thought I would like to take

1743
02:18:18.879 --> 02:18:20.799
a shot at that. But it
was at the end, not at the

1744
02:18:20.159 --> 02:18:26.000
beginning. So what would have happened
at the end of my career. It

1745
02:18:26.120 --> 02:18:30.319
was almost like a postlos. I'd
run the course, I'd run the cards

1746
02:18:30.360 --> 02:18:31.879
on it. So I was in
London and you know, okay, you

1747
02:18:31.959 --> 02:18:35.079
let me stay if you if you
wanted me to stay around, Why don't

1748
02:18:35.120 --> 02:18:39.959
I do the technology goose? Because
I sort of don't go back and do

1749
02:18:39.079 --> 02:18:41.920
the same thing you did before at
the top of the operational thing. So

1750
02:18:43.600 --> 02:18:48.600
but all the engineers looked and said, what's this guy? But it wasn't

1751
02:18:48.600 --> 02:18:52.559
about engineering, right, so I
can't answer. I mean, the answer

1752
02:18:52.680 --> 02:18:58.079
is it wasn't it was at the
end of the cycle. Well, they

1753
02:18:58.079 --> 02:19:03.719
didn't need me because how far the
world has moved in intelligence in terms of

1754
02:19:03.840 --> 02:19:09.959
technology. Right, Duncan Idaho asks, enjoyed both your books. Well,

1755
02:19:11.040 --> 02:19:13.680
he's a fan. I'm his fan. I got an hour for him.

1756
02:19:16.079 --> 02:19:20.440
Do you think that O d n
I has been successful in increasing collaboration between

1757
02:19:20.479 --> 02:19:24.120
intelligence agencies? If you were dn
I under the current framework, what changes

1758
02:19:24.159 --> 02:19:28.520
would you make across the agencies?
This is so bad? This question is

1759
02:19:28.879 --> 02:19:33.559
this is this is dynamite. We
were sitting on a keg of dynamite.

1760
02:19:33.959 --> 02:19:37.040
So if you go back, you'll
find there was a not bed written shortly

1761
02:19:37.159 --> 02:19:43.520
after the dn I was created,
Right and uh I was invited by the

1762
02:19:43.719 --> 02:19:46.280
Washington Post to write a notbed and
said, why am I invited to do

1763
02:19:46.440 --> 02:19:54.120
a notbed? Well, they had
directors, they had ten top people saying

1764
02:19:54.559 --> 02:19:56.520
the dn I was a good thing. Well, I'm saying it's the worst

1765
02:19:56.559 --> 02:20:03.360
idea. Why they probably couldn't find
anybody to say that. And my point

1766
02:20:03.520 --> 02:20:09.000
was at the time, to me, I think the finding fathers got it

1767
02:20:09.239 --> 02:20:13.440
right. Otherwords, you have an
institution, you structure it and you keep

1768
02:20:13.520 --> 02:20:20.639
it tight and the DNI because there
was a reaction at the time and they

1769
02:20:20.680 --> 02:20:24.200
had a plan that they've had for
years in the basement. They did a

1770
02:20:24.239 --> 02:20:31.120
really good job on the Commission in
terms of diagnosing what happened, but they

1771
02:20:31.159 --> 02:20:33.639
didn't have a plan and they slapped
that on the end. That's my view

1772
02:20:33.680 --> 02:20:37.079
of it. But it was meant
to be advisory, but be in the

1773
02:20:37.159 --> 02:20:39.440
government what it is. We decided
we would make it a big agency.

1774
02:20:41.200 --> 02:20:45.680
Why you need an agency of the
scope I think there may be a few

1775
02:20:45.719 --> 02:20:48.520
thousand people in it, And you're
wondering, why do you have that when

1776
02:20:48.559 --> 02:20:54.600
you already have It doesn't make any
sense. You've got competing and you're sitting

1777
02:20:54.719 --> 02:20:58.120
in Paris and the head of the
DNI comes out and then the head of

1778
02:20:58.159 --> 02:21:01.479
the CIA comes out trying to figure
it out. I don't understand, And

1779
02:21:01.600 --> 02:21:07.799
again I don't want to. Everybody
working and I'm sure is a well deserving

1780
02:21:07.920 --> 02:21:15.719
government employee, and they're something great. I think we have built a very

1781
02:21:16.040 --> 02:21:22.840
major structure. The intelligence is so
big that we're gonna get lost in the

1782
02:21:22.920 --> 02:21:26.760
woods. And I've talked to a
couple of directors. I don't go nameless,

1783
02:21:28.559 --> 02:21:35.479
and I've expressed this and they have
the same response, Jack tore doing

1784
02:21:35.559 --> 02:21:39.200
better and you can't. We can't
do this, We can't, we can't

1785
02:21:39.399 --> 02:21:43.840
undo this, Congress. You have
to understand I do understand all this right,

1786
02:21:43.319 --> 02:21:48.120
and it's too hard. But they
know it's not the right answer.

1787
02:21:48.520 --> 02:21:52.719
They know in a hardheart is not
there and they know if they get into

1788
02:21:52.799 --> 02:21:58.319
it, it's a it's a you're
in a pit bullfight, right, And

1789
02:21:58.719 --> 02:22:01.280
why do I do this? I'm
only gonna have the job for two years

1790
02:22:01.360 --> 02:22:05.079
and I'm going to spend all the
time and nothing but headaches. I will

1791
02:22:05.159 --> 02:22:07.559
the morale and they pass on it. So this is going on. No

1792
02:22:07.639 --> 02:22:11.840
one's going to address it. I
mean, I think there's we're going to

1793
02:22:11.879 --> 02:22:16.360
be in really hot trouble. But
well, I mean a little time to

1794
02:22:16.479 --> 02:22:18.600
face up to what type of intelligence
world are we going to have? The

1795
02:22:18.719 --> 02:22:24.680
face up to the challenges. The
one thing I can promise anybody the steps

1796
02:22:24.799 --> 02:22:28.000
us to do it. They will
never be rewarded for it. They will

1797
02:22:28.319 --> 02:22:31.000
you have to do it because you're
a public servant. You believe in it,

1798
02:22:31.600 --> 02:22:33.879
and it's not like, oh it's
too hard, and we'll work around

1799
02:22:33.920 --> 02:22:37.920
the edge. And to work around
the edges, it just gets you.

1800
02:22:37.079 --> 02:22:39.600
What happens, you work around the
jines, you keep building out things.

1801
02:22:39.760 --> 02:22:45.440
It's well exactly that. I mean, it's a little bit ironic that from

1802
02:22:45.520 --> 02:22:48.920
what I've read the CIA when it
was created, the intent was that they

1803
02:22:48.959 --> 02:22:54.559
would be a coordinator of intelligence key
people that were on the panel, two

1804
02:22:54.600 --> 02:22:58.040
of them, okay, and that
they designed it. They did not think

1805
02:22:58.079 --> 02:23:01.600
that. They did not think this
would happen. They don't. They should

1806
02:23:01.639 --> 02:23:05.319
know better than I know. When
you start moving money and you do this

1807
02:23:05.719 --> 02:23:07.479
structure, what are you going to
do with it? Well, we'll build

1808
02:23:07.520 --> 02:23:11.040
another, right, We'll hire more
people, right, we have to give

1809
02:23:11.040 --> 02:23:16.479
them a roll. Fifty years ago. I don't understand that the Brits and

1810
02:23:16.559 --> 02:23:18.959
their service are leaning mean. And
that is if you're an ops officer,

1811
02:23:20.120 --> 02:23:22.680
you do your own reporting, right. In other words, you don't have

1812
02:23:22.600 --> 02:23:28.680
we build these these blocks. And
I wonder, you know, we build

1813
02:23:28.680 --> 02:23:35.000
a support structure that sits on the
top of relatively small number of agents,

1814
02:23:35.040 --> 02:23:39.040
spies and a small amount of money, and we have a big structure to

1815
02:23:39.079 --> 02:23:43.319
support that, And I wonder,
if I'm not wonder, I don't think

1816
02:23:43.360 --> 02:23:48.040
we have that right. Yeah,
Well, last question from Alan, now

1817
02:23:48.200 --> 02:23:52.239
that no one will ever speak to
me again, has the will? Has

1818
02:23:52.319 --> 02:23:58.840
the intensity of the Ukraine support in
terms of dollars put the dollar itself someone

1819
02:23:58.959 --> 02:24:03.559
at risk in terms of the more
complex environment it has to operate regarding volume

1820
02:24:03.600 --> 02:24:09.600
of borrowing and sanctioned hurdles for international
trade. If not, would a China

1821
02:24:09.680 --> 02:24:16.600
Sea conflict induce manifestation of the same
risk. That's a big monetary question there.

1822
02:24:16.840 --> 02:24:22.520
Well, when you actually look at
what sixty one billion dollars is in

1823
02:24:22.680 --> 02:24:26.959
terms of the budget and world and
world, you know, it's a lot

1824
02:24:28.040 --> 02:24:31.239
of money. To me, it's
you know, but you know, you

1825
02:24:31.399 --> 02:24:35.079
look about what it's cosse to build
a couple of planes and a couple of

1826
02:24:35.120 --> 02:24:41.360
ships. But let's look at what's
happening. Originally we were paying that the

1827
02:24:41.440 --> 02:24:46.520
week in one of our biggest enemies. That's a pretty good deal. Anytime

1828
02:24:46.600 --> 02:24:48.959
you can use and it's not used, that's the role wor whenever you're lying

1829
02:24:50.239 --> 02:24:56.559
with surrogus. If you again,
I don't like these words because I see

1830
02:24:56.600 --> 02:25:01.120
it more as a partnership. And
they are out there because they want to

1831
02:25:01.200 --> 02:25:05.680
do it, they're defending their country. That that stuffs us from actually putting

1832
02:25:05.719 --> 02:25:09.440
boots on the ground blood on or
Kona's saying, but it isn't. I

1833
02:25:09.520 --> 02:25:15.319
mean troops has sent right, So
I think we have to recognize that they're

1834
02:25:15.399 --> 02:25:20.760
part of our team. And by
sticking with them, we would have weakened

1835
02:25:20.879 --> 02:25:24.840
Russia, which would have weakened this
access that I'm talking about. So it's

1836
02:25:24.879 --> 02:25:28.479
the what I would have say to
the writer, this is a really good

1837
02:25:28.520 --> 02:25:33.040
investment. And remember a lot of
it comes out of our stock, which

1838
02:25:33.159 --> 02:25:37.680
is then really replenished. Yeah,
it goes into the American economy. I

1839
02:25:37.799 --> 02:25:43.959
forget where it is in the budget, but in terms of real expenditure it's

1840
02:25:43.479 --> 02:25:46.920
I don't think it's really the money
that's the problem in Congress. Now,

1841
02:25:48.360 --> 02:25:50.360
are there a lot of other things
that ought to be cut out of the

1842
02:25:50.399 --> 02:25:52.600
budget, And true, yeah,
I would cut out a lot of stuff.

1843
02:25:54.079 --> 02:25:56.040
But I think this is one of
the best investments, you know.

1844
02:25:56.479 --> 02:26:03.840
Yeah, And I think the problem
that we discussed earlier is too small.

1845
02:26:05.319 --> 02:26:09.239
Yes, it needs to be bigger, and it needs to be more direct.

1846
02:26:09.280 --> 02:26:11.440
In other words, you don't send
it to the checks so they can

1847
02:26:11.559 --> 02:26:16.159
send their second hand and you have
to up the ante on the level.

1848
02:26:16.319 --> 02:26:20.760
And I learned this from this thing
or this is a technology battle. This

1849
02:26:20.920 --> 02:26:26.280
is a new war. Putin's new
forces are bringing new technology. They're not

1850
02:26:26.440 --> 02:26:31.239
sending, they're not holding back,
They're putting their best in there. If

1851
02:26:31.280 --> 02:26:35.680
we give second best, what we're
counting on is Ukrainian termination. Why don't

1852
02:26:35.719 --> 02:26:41.360
you give them determination? Why don't
you give them everything that you can give

1853
02:26:41.440 --> 02:26:45.000
them? If you want to really
stop, if you stop Putin, just

1854
02:26:45.040 --> 02:26:46.159
hold him. You don't have to
win. Why we decided to do a

1855
02:26:46.239 --> 02:26:50.479
counter offensive, I don't understand.
If you just hold him, he will

1856
02:26:50.520 --> 02:26:54.639
be a failure. And we stopped
that. We looked like he was a

1857
02:26:54.719 --> 02:26:58.280
failure. We have made him alive
again. He's strutting. You can't even

1858
02:26:58.319 --> 02:27:03.639
see it. You can see on
the stage. Why because if we had

1859
02:27:03.719 --> 02:27:07.079
held him, now he looks like
he's winning. So well, who's going

1860
02:27:07.159 --> 02:27:11.000
to try and you know, be
any resistance. If he's winning, let

1861
02:27:11.079 --> 02:27:15.159
it go, let it roll.
We'll get an industrial base out of Ukraine.

1862
02:27:18.040 --> 02:27:24.920
Sometimes relaxed old espion. I just
want to let folks know that on

1863
02:27:24.079 --> 02:27:28.760
Tuesday we're going to be back with
Matt Stevens, former Navy seal, and

1864
02:27:28.959 --> 02:27:33.639
then on Friday we're going to be
here with Robert Young Pelton who's a war

1865
02:27:33.799 --> 02:27:37.760
journalist. But turn over to you
guys to wrap it up. I mean

1866
02:27:39.239 --> 02:27:46.360
final thoughts. Please buy and read
Good Hunting and The Spymaster's Prison. I

1867
02:27:46.719 --> 02:27:52.719
promise you will enjoy them both.
We have to have you back because we

1868
02:27:52.159 --> 02:27:58.159
need this looks like a lifetime enterprise. We would love to have you.

1869
02:27:58.000 --> 02:28:01.719
We were doing two page the time, but now we're doing one patient at

1870
02:28:03.120 --> 02:28:05.079
jack. We didn't have time to
or we didn't really get into it in

1871
02:28:05.239 --> 02:28:09.639
depth. We'll have to next time. But for folks who are out there

1872
02:28:09.680 --> 02:28:11.799
listening to this, could you tell
them about the Arcing group and what you're

1873
02:28:11.840 --> 02:28:16.920
doing today and where they can find
you. So when I left the agency,

1874
02:28:16.600 --> 02:28:18.879
I wanted to stay close to the
information. Again, a lot of

1875
02:28:18.920 --> 02:28:24.959
things are certaindipitous. And there was
a top lawyer defense lawyer in town and

1876
02:28:24.879 --> 02:28:28.479
he thought he was the best lawyer, and I'll have to say he was

1877
02:28:28.639 --> 02:28:30.680
the best layer in the country.
I thought it was one of the best.

1878
02:28:30.760 --> 02:28:33.479
But I mean, I usually don't
say the best because there's you don't

1879
02:28:33.479 --> 02:28:37.959
want to get two over the charged. But he asked me if i'd go

1880
02:28:39.040 --> 02:28:41.600
into business with him. We created
a business and it was provided intelligence to

1881
02:28:41.719 --> 02:28:46.639
the private sector, right, and
you know it's I'm not in covert action,

1882
02:28:48.600 --> 02:28:50.639
which was you know, so half
of micro all my careers now devoted

1883
02:28:50.719 --> 02:28:58.520
to collecting information and basically in that
consulting faction, which is factor which is

1884
02:28:58.559 --> 02:29:03.360
bringing in eligent saying, this is
what I think about. This situation is

1885
02:29:03.399 --> 02:29:09.280
a bigger demand now for geopolitical and
there's so much already out there analytically the

1886
02:29:09.399 --> 02:29:13.879
customers I'm now getting, Yeah,
I got that. I really want to

1887
02:29:13.959 --> 02:29:20.760
know ground troop. So I'm suddenly
gotten a new market. So most of

1888
02:29:20.799 --> 02:29:24.040
our clients, many of them come
through law firms, because that's where companies

1889
02:29:24.360 --> 02:29:31.319
people that have problems are, especially
as international, and that is looking at

1890
02:29:31.399 --> 02:29:37.239
companies people we're making investments, but
now a lot of it is every All

1891
02:29:37.319 --> 02:29:41.200
the investment companies were looking at risk
and geopolitical, but it was number four

1892
02:29:41.360 --> 02:29:46.120
on the list and they felt comfortable
because they had models that would work.

1893
02:29:46.319 --> 02:29:50.239
Now people are coming to me more
in the geopolitical arena. We're a small

1894
02:29:50.319 --> 02:29:56.000
boutique and you know, we don't
have hats, and they were not at

1895
02:29:56.079 --> 02:30:03.680
conferences. Most of our workers referral
and we have a website. We're putting

1896
02:30:03.719 --> 02:30:07.159
a new snazzy one off. What's
your website, Well, it's the Arcan

1897
02:30:07.200 --> 02:30:13.200
Group. Yes, Arkham Arkhamgroup dot
com. Thank you ARCA. My partner

1898
02:30:13.239 --> 02:30:16.479
was Stanley Arkin, and when I
started, I had fourteen percent. I

1899
02:30:16.559 --> 02:30:20.559
never owned anything, and six months
into it, I think he said,

1900
02:30:20.600 --> 02:30:22.639
I don't think this is working.
So I had a piece. I was

1901
02:30:22.719 --> 02:30:26.479
about to say something good, good
thing. Once in a while, you

1902
02:30:26.520 --> 02:30:28.000
hold your tongue. He said,
I think we should be fifty to fifty

1903
02:30:28.120 --> 02:30:33.079
partners. But he didn't want the
company to be named after him because he

1904
02:30:33.239 --> 02:30:39.200
was right, it's too personalized.
So what I did know is truly one

1905
02:30:39.239 --> 02:30:41.680
of the great lawyers. But he
was so successful. There's a lot of

1906
02:30:41.760 --> 02:30:48.120
people that don't like him because he
was successful. He brought down the CEO

1907
02:30:48.280 --> 02:30:50.920
of American Express, so I don't
get a lot of business from American Express.

1908
02:30:52.520 --> 02:30:56.879
So well, it's the Arcan Group. And sadly it was we were

1909
02:30:56.920 --> 02:31:00.840
in business twenty years. But he
he was not a part There was a

1910
02:31:00.959 --> 02:31:05.879
real friend. We were really quite
different, but there was a core there

1911
02:31:05.920 --> 02:31:09.959
that was very similar and it was
a big loss on a on a personal

1912
02:31:11.040 --> 02:31:15.399
basis with Stanley. So we've held
on to the name and uh, and

1913
02:31:15.639 --> 02:31:20.600
we've been known in the marketplace and
sometimes it's called tagged just because it's simply

1914
02:31:20.680 --> 02:31:24.799
to yeah, write that, and
so you can find this and uh,

1915
02:31:26.639 --> 02:31:30.719
you know, my door is I
was about to stay open, but you

1916
02:31:30.799 --> 02:31:37.920
got too many people. Yeah,
so yeah, it's and we have a

1917
02:31:37.040 --> 02:31:43.360
podcast and the news letter it goes
out and you can see that I'm having

1918
02:31:43.440 --> 02:31:46.680
some fun. Actually we did some
of it tonight. I mean it really

1919
02:31:46.440 --> 02:31:50.200
mine is going to be about spy
cases and try and bring some of it

1920
02:31:50.319 --> 02:31:54.239
into the business community. Like insider
its rat when you look at the aims

1921
02:31:54.280 --> 02:31:58.280
in the private sector, a lot
of these same conditions. Someone said,

1922
02:31:58.319 --> 02:32:03.319
it's the oldest profession. Some of
the gredients in the human side are indeed

1923
02:32:03.639 --> 02:32:09.639
constant psychology and all those things are
still very much part of it. Yeah,

1924
02:32:11.239 --> 02:32:13.680
well, Jack, thank you so
much for sharing some of your experiences

1925
02:32:13.760 --> 02:32:16.120
with us. And like they've said, we're going to have to do this

1926
02:32:16.159 --> 02:32:20.079
at least one more time. I
think too. I mean, honestly,

1927
02:32:20.159 --> 02:32:24.120
I think we should just do it
like every three months. We just put

1928
02:32:24.159 --> 02:32:26.760
it on the book as a recurring
you know, I think it's endless.

1929
02:32:28.040 --> 02:32:33.040
You know, I do too.
So my granddaughter gave me a for a

1930
02:32:33.200 --> 02:32:39.680
present like the right of Family's Story, which sounds great until you start to

1931
02:32:39.760 --> 02:32:45.200
do it. It's like, wow, I can write something quickly about today,

1932
02:32:45.639 --> 02:32:48.719
right, But if I have to
go back in the book, you're

1933
02:32:48.799 --> 02:32:52.799
only up to you're halfway through.
I'm only up to nineteen seventy four and

1934
02:32:52.879 --> 02:32:56.280
I've got twenty thousand words. So
I mean, so we can go on.

1935
02:32:56.440 --> 02:32:58.760
I don't know if I can catch
up to you. You know,

1936
02:33:00.719 --> 02:33:03.239
we're here for it. I mean, we were here for it. I

1937
02:33:03.319 --> 02:33:05.079
think the audience that needs a break
once in a while. And well,

1938
02:33:05.680 --> 02:33:09.799
that's a lot of great guests,
I mean terrific guests. We'll get back

1939
02:33:09.799 --> 02:33:13.280
to it in the fall. I
think, you know, ye let us

1940
02:33:13.280 --> 02:33:16.120
sink in, let some more problems, because tonight's problem is not the problem

1941
02:33:16.200 --> 02:33:20.959
we were talking about the last time. This movie, this world is movie

1942
02:33:22.079 --> 02:33:26.159
so fast. I like to take
some of my experience and fast forward into

1943
02:33:26.680 --> 02:33:28.760
we're three months from now, we'll
be talking a different way about this,

1944
02:33:30.799 --> 02:33:33.399
Jack. See what you said.
Now they're all broken apart. I'm betting.

1945
02:33:33.799 --> 02:33:37.680
I'm betting that's not the case,
but I think will be. I

1946
02:33:37.959 --> 02:33:39.719
think, you know, to degree
you want to do what I enjoyed.

1947
02:33:41.920 --> 02:33:48.680
Yeah, you are the best interviewers
because if anything else, the audience they

1948
02:33:48.799 --> 02:33:50.479
know that you know what you're talking
about. You know, you've read this

1949
02:33:50.600 --> 02:33:56.000
book and I said that one fellow
you know, invited me and held up

1950
02:33:56.040 --> 02:33:58.879
the wrong book. We're having any
discussions because you know what you're talking about

1951
02:34:00.120 --> 02:34:03.079
and it's in an area that I
feel comfortable with. So, uh,

1952
02:34:03.520 --> 02:34:07.040
that's why I come here. No, thank you. I mean, I've

1953
02:34:07.079 --> 02:34:09.040
done a lot of one timers,
but I don't come back twice. If

1954
02:34:09.079 --> 02:34:13.520
you don't know who I am and
called me billy, it's like, okay,

1955
02:34:13.079 --> 02:34:16.479
not going to work. But I
feel like we are in this living

1956
02:34:16.600 --> 02:34:22.000
room here, and uh, I
feel like a real real camaraderie. We

1957
02:34:22.120 --> 02:34:26.040
really appreciate that, Like we feel
blessed to have you and people like you

1958
02:34:26.520 --> 02:34:30.120
willing to come on and share your
life with us and your you know,

1959
02:34:30.319 --> 02:34:33.559
your experience, your wisdom. Do
you make sure you clip that part where

1960
02:34:33.600 --> 02:34:37.799
he says how great we are?
Yeah, that's important. Well, every

1961
02:34:37.840 --> 02:34:41.520
once in a while exaggerated. The
rest of it was straight. But they

1962
02:34:41.559 --> 02:34:46.120
said they're not going to help me
get an uber unless I say something that

1963
02:34:46.319 --> 02:34:50.200
part no, but no, but
we feel pat. We got to get

1964
02:34:50.239 --> 02:34:52.200
Pat in here. She was here
last night. Yeah, yeah, she

1965
02:34:52.319 --> 02:34:56.719
was great. Yeah, she well
she has a crutches, so she's more

1966
02:34:56.840 --> 02:35:01.879
lethal. But she's she's coming back
fast, she's coming back good. That's

1967
02:35:01.920 --> 02:35:05.159
good. Yeah, you actually,
well, I don't know if she'll agree.

1968
02:35:05.200 --> 02:35:09.959
She has real high demands on her
contract, but some of the things

1969
02:35:09.000 --> 02:35:13.079
she's done in behalf of the intel. She's she's more than welcome, you

1970
02:35:13.159 --> 02:35:16.959
know, Like we don't like try
to exclude the spouses, be they male

1971
02:35:18.120 --> 02:35:20.040
or female. They're like welcome to
come on the show. We're going to

1972
02:35:20.079 --> 02:35:24.879
have ground rules. So between you
and her, Yeah, I can't.

1973
02:35:24.920 --> 02:35:26.920
I can't. We can't enforce that
contract. You guys have to. Yeah,

1974
02:35:26.920 --> 02:35:31.840
I'll just tell you. We were
taking Italian together because we were going

1975
02:35:31.879 --> 02:35:37.360
to Rome and the spouses can take
the course, and we were going down

1976
02:35:37.479 --> 02:35:43.000
route ninety five, and I had
the audacity to suggest that she wasn't using

1977
02:35:43.040 --> 02:35:48.239
the subjunctive right. The window goes
down ninety five, out goes the Italian.

1978
02:35:48.479 --> 02:35:52.040
But we didn't have We went to
class. There was only three of

1979
02:35:52.120 --> 02:36:00.440
us in class there not knowing our
stuff. So you gotta be careful push,

1980
02:36:00.799 --> 02:36:03.559
but lucky I didn't get hit with
the book book that I was in,

1981
02:36:03.799 --> 02:36:07.520
So we'll bring her back. She's
she's been a big, big,

1982
02:36:07.639 --> 02:36:13.840
big part of keeping me afloat.
We appreciate it. And our church upstairs,

1983
02:36:13.879 --> 02:36:16.799
it sounds like they've got getting started. It's time to worship. Uh

1984
02:36:18.360 --> 02:36:22.079
So we will see all of you
on Tuesday and then again on Friday.

1985
02:36:22.280 --> 02:36:28.559
Please check out our friends at Caso
Carabeo Cigars Costocarabeo dot com. And it

1986
02:36:28.719 --> 02:36:31.959
can't be. It can't be ten
thirty. This is it is. Sorry,

1987
02:36:35.399 --> 02:36:39.440
apologies here, get off that couch. I got to roll. We're

1988
02:36:39.479 --> 02:36:43.200
having after all, right, guys, we'll see you