WEBVTT 1 00:00:14.119 --> 00:00:18.800 What's going on? Everybody. Welcome to another exciting episode of Adventures and DevOps. 2 00:00:19.199 --> 00:00:23.239 I'm your host today, Will Button and joining me in the studio is 3 00:00:23.359 --> 00:00:27.719 Jonathan Hall. Hey, well, how's it going excellent? So today we 4 00:00:27.760 --> 00:00:32.920 are going to talk about some relevant some relevant topics. You know, we've 5 00:00:32.960 --> 00:00:36.560 seen in the news a lot a lot of layoffs happening. A lot of 6 00:00:36.560 --> 00:00:40.159 companies have announced that they're going to freeze the hiring process, and so the 7 00:00:40.240 --> 00:00:43.679 end result is, if you're looking for a job, it's going to get 8 00:00:43.719 --> 00:00:47.119 a lot more difficult than what it has been in years past. So we're 9 00:00:47.119 --> 00:00:50.679 going to talk about some tips and tricks. Both Jonathan and I have been 10 00:00:50.719 --> 00:00:53.320 doing this for a while. We've been through a few of these up and 11 00:00:53.359 --> 00:00:56.359 down cycles. So we're going to share with you some of the things we've 12 00:00:56.439 --> 00:01:00.479 learned over the last few decades that might help you stand out the job search 13 00:01:00.640 --> 00:01:07.200 process. Awesome, So, do you know anybody will before we get started, 14 00:01:07.239 --> 00:01:11.439 you know anybody who's been laid off recently? No, I don't know 15 00:01:11.480 --> 00:01:15.159 anyone personally who's been laid off. There's some people that I followed them, 16 00:01:15.159 --> 00:01:19.560 they follow me on Twitter that have been impacted and I know a few close 17 00:01:19.599 --> 00:01:26.159 friends who haven't been laid off, but they are feeling pretty insecure currently. 18 00:01:26.400 --> 00:01:27.280 Yeah, I think I'm in the same situation. In fact, I just 19 00:01:27.359 --> 00:01:32.560 had a chat earlier today with a former colleague who is working freelance for a 20 00:01:32.599 --> 00:01:34.760 company. He's not doing DevOps, but he's a front end developer and was 21 00:01:34.920 --> 00:01:40.719 just told recently that they're going to be ending freelance contracts because of the downturn. 22 00:01:40.879 --> 00:01:44.120 So yeah, I haven't had a personal impact or anybody I know, 23 00:01:44.200 --> 00:01:46.480 but it's the same as you on social media. I know some people. 24 00:01:47.040 --> 00:01:51.120 It's definitely a big thing. Companies are starting to do hiring freezes, in 25 00:01:51.239 --> 00:01:53.680 layoffs, and even maybe even I don't know if this is worse, but 26 00:01:53.959 --> 00:01:59.239 just renegging on offers, you know, retracting offers after they've been made, 27 00:01:59.400 --> 00:02:02.000 which is really disappointing as a job as a job seeker. You finally got 28 00:02:02.000 --> 00:02:07.000 a contract, you quit your job, maybe you went on a short holiday 29 00:02:07.400 --> 00:02:09.080 excited about your new job, and then you discovered there is no new job 30 00:02:09.120 --> 00:02:14.080 for you. Yeah, Coinbase stands out in my mind. They just did 31 00:02:14.120 --> 00:02:20.280 that recently. Yeah, So I think the first thing that stands out in 32 00:02:20.319 --> 00:02:24.199 my mind is when you're applying for a job in times like these, you've 33 00:02:24.280 --> 00:02:29.800 really got to go out of your way to stand out from the other candidates. 34 00:02:29.840 --> 00:02:35.439 And I think it falls into three different categories where you can stand out. 35 00:02:35.879 --> 00:02:40.800 One is your resume slash cover letter, if you still use a cover 36 00:02:40.879 --> 00:02:46.280 letter. The other is your social media profile, which I've talked with quite 37 00:02:46.280 --> 00:02:49.960 a few people about this and this actually catches some people off guard. And 38 00:02:50.000 --> 00:02:57.439 then the third I think is your work history or publicly viewable projects to demonstrate 39 00:02:57.479 --> 00:03:00.879 your capabilities. Yeah, think that. I think those are all great areas 40 00:03:00.879 --> 00:03:04.719 to focus on. I wrote an article. I'll put a link to it 41 00:03:04.759 --> 00:03:07.360 in the show notes. I wrote an article a couple of years ago for 42 00:03:07.439 --> 00:03:12.080 a recruitment agency here in the Netherlands about how to use your GitHub profile to 43 00:03:12.120 --> 00:03:15.439 help you land the job. And you know, those those skills are so 44 00:03:15.479 --> 00:03:19.759 important. I mean, basically, I think that you you need to convince 45 00:03:19.919 --> 00:03:23.639 a hiring manager that you're probably a good candidate before they talk to you these 46 00:03:23.719 --> 00:03:29.439 days, because there's so many applicants out there, so many people looking for 47 00:03:29.520 --> 00:03:31.719 work, and so little time. I mean, I'm a hiring manager right 48 00:03:31.759 --> 00:03:36.120 now, I have. I managed a couple of teams, and I've been 49 00:03:36.120 --> 00:03:38.199 doing some interviews, not for DevOps rolls by the way, Sorry, don't 50 00:03:38.199 --> 00:03:45.080 call me for that, But I have very limited time. Every every manager 51 00:03:45.120 --> 00:03:46.719 does. But when it comes to hiring, you know, when there's a 52 00:03:46.759 --> 00:03:52.159 thousand candidates for two positions, you have to pick the candidates that look the 53 00:03:52.159 --> 00:03:53.479 most promising. You don't want to talk to everybody, even though that might 54 00:03:53.520 --> 00:03:58.240 not be fair because there's great candidates who don't have great cvs or don't have 55 00:03:58.280 --> 00:04:01.080 big get hub profiles. But man, realistically, they they're going to look 56 00:04:01.120 --> 00:04:05.919 for somebody who looks promising before even the screening call in many cases, So 57 00:04:08.240 --> 00:04:11.000 you want to look promising. So yeah, I guess that's what when you 58 00:04:11.039 --> 00:04:14.039 talk about how do you look promising from the beginning, Yeah, we're talking 59 00:04:14.080 --> 00:04:17.800 before we clicked on the record button. Like whenever I first got into tech, 60 00:04:18.480 --> 00:04:24.399 you would break out the old newspaper and look for job ads, and 61 00:04:24.439 --> 00:04:28.519 then whenever you saw one that you thought would work for you, you would 62 00:04:28.519 --> 00:04:31.600 print out your resume and put it in the mail and physically mail it to 63 00:04:31.680 --> 00:04:35.160 the place and to stand out, then you would go and buy this really 64 00:04:35.199 --> 00:04:40.519 expensive super thick paper. So when they had a pile of resume sitting on 65 00:04:40.560 --> 00:04:45.920 their desk that this one that was on this really thick paper would hopefully stand 66 00:04:45.959 --> 00:04:49.160 out. Yeah, so do you think that would work these days? You 67 00:04:49.199 --> 00:04:54.920 know, it might not be as effective these days. Like the big question 68 00:04:55.120 --> 00:04:58.959 is when is this physical piece of mail going to actually get to the hiring 69 00:04:59.040 --> 00:05:03.040 manager? Most likely serious, Yeah, like six months after they filled the 70 00:05:03.160 --> 00:05:08.079 role. I hope somebody tries this as an experiment and lets us know how 71 00:05:08.079 --> 00:05:10.720 it goes, because I would. I would be fascinated to hear if there's 72 00:05:10.720 --> 00:05:14.439 a physical CV on any kind of paper, does it even get noticed these 73 00:05:14.519 --> 00:05:17.759 days? I've heard of people putting their resume. One story I heard that 74 00:05:17.839 --> 00:05:23.720 really stands out. Someone put their resume with like a five dollars Starbucks gift 75 00:05:23.759 --> 00:05:29.920 card and then fedexit to directly to the hiring manager. So then if you 76 00:05:29.920 --> 00:05:33.240 get a FedEx envelope the front desk or whoever's collecting the mails and say, 77 00:05:33.279 --> 00:05:38.680 oh, this must be important opened it up in his cover letter said hey, 78 00:05:38.720 --> 00:05:41.560 here's five bucks if you want to meet me for coffee and talk about 79 00:05:41.600 --> 00:05:46.040 my qualifications for this job. I thought that was really clever. That's clever. 80 00:05:46.199 --> 00:05:49.120 I wonder if it might borderline on a bribe, but it's it's certainly 81 00:05:49.120 --> 00:05:54.000 a clever approach. Yeah, for sure, having been in that hiring position 82 00:05:54.120 --> 00:05:59.519 in the past, I would probably meet with that individual and then return the 83 00:05:59.519 --> 00:06:03.879 gift card to them at that point so that there's no no like possible and 84 00:06:03.959 --> 00:06:09.920 misterpretation or anything right, good call. So I think, aside from trying 85 00:06:09.959 --> 00:06:15.639 to FedEx overnight your your CV with a gift cards or another gimmicks, when 86 00:06:15.639 --> 00:06:18.040 I'm looking for candidates, the things I'm looking for, of course, it 87 00:06:18.040 --> 00:06:21.959 depends on the role on the seniority level, but I'm looking for indication that 88 00:06:23.079 --> 00:06:28.279 this candidate has an initiative and they're capable of learning new things. Those are 89 00:06:28.279 --> 00:06:30.759 the two most important things for me, I think in a new candidate, 90 00:06:30.040 --> 00:06:33.839 except at really senior levels, where I don't care if they learn new things 91 00:06:33.839 --> 00:06:39.040 because they already know everything I need them to know. You know, if 92 00:06:39.040 --> 00:06:42.160 I'm looking for an ABS guru who can just come in and clean up our 93 00:06:42.199 --> 00:06:45.319 mess because we made it. We made a crap ton of mistakes on AWS, 94 00:06:45.399 --> 00:06:47.759 I don't really care that they're always trying to learn new things. I 95 00:06:47.800 --> 00:06:51.240 just want an expert to come in and clean up my mess. But usually 96 00:06:51.480 --> 00:06:55.839 I'm looking for I'm looking for potential, right, I'm looking for to hire 97 00:06:55.879 --> 00:07:00.519 somebody who I see has made an effort in the past, and that therefore 98 00:07:00.519 --> 00:07:02.399 hopefully assume that they continue to make an effort to learn new things, try 99 00:07:02.480 --> 00:07:08.120 new new approaches. They're always learning, because I believe that engineering is always 100 00:07:08.120 --> 00:07:11.600 about learning to solve new problems. I look at the code I wrote a 101 00:07:11.600 --> 00:07:14.199 month ago, six months ago, and I think, what was I thinking. 102 00:07:15.680 --> 00:07:19.720 I'm looking for sciences developers and engineers who have a similar mindset that they're 103 00:07:19.759 --> 00:07:23.879 always expending. So that's why I like to see. I mean, what 104 00:07:23.920 --> 00:07:26.560 are the first things I look for Whether I get a CV or a Lincoln 105 00:07:26.600 --> 00:07:30.040 profile, I look for GitHub or get lab. I don't care. It's 106 00:07:30.079 --> 00:07:30.839 not the brand, it's the point. I want to see what kind of 107 00:07:30.839 --> 00:07:33.800 code you've written in the past, and I can often tell. In fact, 108 00:07:33.920 --> 00:07:36.480 I did a couple of interviews of this last week where I looked at 109 00:07:36.480 --> 00:07:40.759 the gi hub profile and I wasn't impressed. I did the interview in a 110 00:07:40.800 --> 00:07:44.560 way and I wasn't impressed, you know, like the code was it is 111 00:07:44.600 --> 00:07:46.959 some toy projects, which is fine, but like it just didn't. Well, 112 00:07:47.439 --> 00:07:49.519 just just to be clear, one of the things that I look for 113 00:07:49.600 --> 00:07:55.480 is unit tests or tests of any kind, and some of these code bases 114 00:07:55.519 --> 00:07:58.720 didn't have that, which tells me that this person, you know, maybe 115 00:07:58.720 --> 00:08:01.519 it's a hobby project, they didn't think it was important. And that's why 116 00:08:01.560 --> 00:08:03.759 I still have the interview. I want to talk and learn learn that stuff. 117 00:08:03.759 --> 00:08:07.000 But you know, if you don't have the discipline to write tests, 118 00:08:07.040 --> 00:08:11.160 do you have the discipline to do other things correctly? And not everybody's going 119 00:08:11.160 --> 00:08:13.279 to agree with me on the test issue, but that's one area that's easy 120 00:08:13.319 --> 00:08:18.519 to look for in a GitHub repository unlike some others. So that that's only 121 00:08:18.600 --> 00:08:20.040 one example. I don't want anybody to hung up on the test thing. 122 00:08:20.240 --> 00:08:24.040 That's just one example of things I look for. Yeah, I think along 123 00:08:24.079 --> 00:08:28.399 those lines. The other things to look for besides tests are documentation on how 124 00:08:28.439 --> 00:08:31.799 to set up and run this, like is there a make file? Is 125 00:08:31.840 --> 00:08:37.200 the read me very clear about how to use it? And then yeah, 126 00:08:37.240 --> 00:08:41.960 and you know some type of c CD if it's a product that's applicable to 127 00:08:43.000 --> 00:08:46.159 that, did you take the time to use GitHub actions or certain CI or 128 00:08:46.200 --> 00:08:50.759 something so that you're not doing that manually, even if it is a personal 129 00:08:50.919 --> 00:08:56.000 project, which I think is more one of the ways that a personal website 130 00:08:56.360 --> 00:09:01.320 can can really work out for you. There. You know, have a 131 00:09:01.320 --> 00:09:05.960 website that's hosted on S three or cloud floor pages or whatever, but integrate 132 00:09:05.960 --> 00:09:13.480 it with CICD and then pull pull some data from a back end database. 133 00:09:13.519 --> 00:09:20.200 So stand up a little API in AWS and so now your website demonstrates what 134 00:09:20.320 --> 00:09:24.759 your capabilities are, and then that code'll losing GitHub that can be seen. 135 00:09:24.159 --> 00:09:28.960 Yes, definitely mean, especially if you're looking for a DevOps type of role, 136 00:09:28.320 --> 00:09:31.799 take the time to build a project, even if it's just an MVC 137 00:09:31.960 --> 00:09:35.399 to do type thing, and it could be a completely throw a right project 138 00:09:35.399 --> 00:09:39.039 if you have nothing else, but take the time to set up CICD, 139 00:09:39.200 --> 00:09:41.639 deploy it somewhere just to show, just to prove that you can. That's 140 00:09:41.639 --> 00:09:45.519 worth a lot. If it's a personal website, that's even better. I 141 00:09:45.559 --> 00:09:48.240 mean, I have a CD pipeline for my personal website which is built with 142 00:09:48.559 --> 00:09:52.320 Hugo set Excite gen Writer, so there's no database, but I still have 143 00:09:52.399 --> 00:09:56.159 CICD and it deploys to so it's not public. But I could make a 144 00:09:56.159 --> 00:10:00.320 public. It's nothing on my website. I'm hiding it's a website for goodn't 145 00:10:00.360 --> 00:10:05.639 think so. Yeah, if you want to, especially if you have a 146 00:10:05.639 --> 00:10:07.600 blog, or even if you don't, we'll probably talk about that in a 147 00:10:07.639 --> 00:10:11.279 minute, create one. But if you a great way to demonstrate that you 148 00:10:11.320 --> 00:10:15.159 know how to do CICD is to put your blog in CICD. If you're 149 00:10:15.279 --> 00:10:18.039 using WordPress, maybe maybe not, but put your blog. If you don't 150 00:10:18.080 --> 00:10:20.120 have, put it on. Use Jackal, or use Hugo, or use 151 00:10:20.159 --> 00:10:24.519 any of those statics site generators. Throw it up somewhere. You can get 152 00:10:24.559 --> 00:10:28.519 free web hosting, you can use Firebase for free, you can get all 153 00:10:28.519 --> 00:10:31.799 sorts of cheap or free web hosting. Throw it up somewhere and you'll have 154 00:10:31.840 --> 00:10:35.039 a CICD pipeline to prove that you know what you're doing. And I'll tell 155 00:10:35.039 --> 00:10:39.279 you what if I saw that on an applicant from an applicant for a DevOps 156 00:10:39.320 --> 00:10:41.480 roll, I would they would jump to the top of my list very quickly 157 00:10:41.639 --> 00:10:46.720 right on. I think one of the other things that helps you stand out 158 00:10:46.320 --> 00:10:52.240 are your other social media profiles, and for tech oriented roles, I tend 159 00:10:52.240 --> 00:10:58.519 to lean towards Twitter a bit more than other social media profiles because Twitter has 160 00:10:58.559 --> 00:11:01.519 such a strong tech unity, and I think it can really help you stand 161 00:11:01.559 --> 00:11:05.559 out if you're active in that community. And it doesn't mean that you have 162 00:11:05.679 --> 00:11:11.279 to have a big following or be posting viral tweets or something. It just 163 00:11:11.360 --> 00:11:16.679 means following some people in the same career space as you and engaging with them 164 00:11:16.720 --> 00:11:22.080 so that whenever a potential employer checks out your profile, they see that you're 165 00:11:22.120 --> 00:11:24.919 active in that community. And it can also give them an idea of your 166 00:11:26.120 --> 00:11:30.559 interest and capabilities by looking at the posts that you interact with in your your 167 00:11:30.600 --> 00:11:35.399 contributions to those posts. Yeah. I think it's also where choosing a username 168 00:11:35.639 --> 00:11:41.799 really is important. Right, So whenever you link to your profile, like 169 00:11:41.080 --> 00:11:46.000 we all know and love you as bomb water four twenty on Reddit, but 170 00:11:46.120 --> 00:11:48.399 you might want to pick a new user name before you paste it into your 171 00:11:48.440 --> 00:11:52.080 resume. Yeah, definitely. I mean it doesn't have to be it doesn't 172 00:11:52.120 --> 00:11:54.799 have to be it doesn't have to be a teching name. It just can't 173 00:11:54.799 --> 00:12:01.240 be unprofessional, right right, Yeah, nothing that's going to flag the content 174 00:12:01.360 --> 00:12:07.480 filters at the old corporate firewall. Yeah, were trying to look at your 175 00:12:07.519 --> 00:12:13.759 Twitter profile but it's blocked for some reason. Do you hire me? I'd 176 00:12:13.759 --> 00:12:18.360 be happy to take a look at that. What do you think about So 177 00:12:18.759 --> 00:12:20.240 I've heard of this happening, and I've never done myself, But what do 178 00:12:20.240 --> 00:12:26.399 you think about somebody who, either on the interview or in an application that 179 00:12:26.519 --> 00:12:30.519 do their cover letter, they point out technical problems that your company is facing. 180 00:12:30.759 --> 00:12:33.440 They like, I discovered these open ports on your firewall, or I 181 00:12:33.480 --> 00:12:37.879 discovered that you have a a some sort of cross site scripting vulnerability on your 182 00:12:37.919 --> 00:12:41.639 website, or there's some mescul injection going on here. Is that a good 183 00:12:41.679 --> 00:12:46.559 thing to do if you could discover that? Or does that? What impression 184 00:12:46.559 --> 00:12:50.320 does that leave? I think it shows initiative, but I would be very 185 00:12:50.360 --> 00:12:56.200 cautious about doing it because delivery is everything. Like, whenever you deliver that 186 00:12:56.320 --> 00:13:01.600 message, the recipient of that me message is going to take it as one 187 00:13:01.639 --> 00:13:09.159 of two ways like oh wow, this person's already actively engaged and looking for 188 00:13:09.639 --> 00:13:13.559 things to help out with, or what the hell are you doing probing our 189 00:13:13.639 --> 00:13:18.000 site? You know? And which of those decisions they come to comes down 190 00:13:18.039 --> 00:13:22.879 to delivery. I would probably not deliver that in any written form. I 191 00:13:22.879 --> 00:13:28.919 would deliver it in a video or face to face format so that I can 192 00:13:28.960 --> 00:13:33.279 control not only the language, but the tone of voice, the facial expressions, 193 00:13:33.279 --> 00:13:37.960 that eye contact, the body language, all that stuff to make absolutely 194 00:13:37.000 --> 00:13:41.480 certain that that message is not misinterpreted. Good advice, Yes, yeah, 195 00:13:41.519 --> 00:13:45.559 what about you? What are your thoughts on that? So it shows initiative, 196 00:13:45.759 --> 00:13:48.279 I think. So. I think as a hiring manager or as a 197 00:13:48.279 --> 00:13:52.799 company, I think it could be nice to ask candidates to do that, 198 00:13:52.960 --> 00:13:54.799 Like if you discover a vulnerability, let us know, we want to talk 199 00:13:54.840 --> 00:14:00.960 to you. And I remember years past someone having a comment in there in 200 00:14:01.000 --> 00:14:03.399 the source code of their HTML that says, if you're reading this, we 201 00:14:03.440 --> 00:14:05.720 want to hire you, or something like that, because it indicated that someone 202 00:14:05.879 --> 00:14:09.519 was, you know, hacking around a little bit. Those kinds of things 203 00:14:09.519 --> 00:14:13.120 are clever and cute. So if you, as a company are interested in 204 00:14:13.240 --> 00:14:16.039 attracting those sorts of people, I think that's cool. Or leave a port 205 00:14:16.080 --> 00:14:18.480 open on your firewall that when you connect to it, it sends you a 206 00:14:18.519 --> 00:14:20.960 message says we want to talk to you. Here's our hiring contact or something 207 00:14:22.000 --> 00:14:24.399 like that. Yeah, it's kind of cool to catch those people that are 208 00:14:24.399 --> 00:14:28.600 doing that. But unless the company is inviting that sort of thing, I 209 00:14:28.639 --> 00:14:31.960 would be cautious. And also for two reasons. Not only does it look 210 00:14:31.080 --> 00:14:35.720 a little bit fishy if you're probing our network, but it also can seem 211 00:14:35.720 --> 00:14:37.720 a little bit show off. Ye yeah, and that can and there's a 212 00:14:39.120 --> 00:14:41.639 there's a fine line, and I don't know where it is. There's a 213 00:14:41.639 --> 00:14:46.440 fine line between being proactive and showing off, And so I would just be 214 00:14:46.559 --> 00:14:48.840 very careful. It's about the delivery. I would I would wait till I 215 00:14:48.879 --> 00:14:54.159 have a rapport with somebody before I started pointing out the problems. Agreed. 216 00:14:54.320 --> 00:14:56.519 Yeah, So I think blogging is a is a great topic here because who 217 00:14:56.679 --> 00:15:00.279 touched on in a little bit. Do you have a blog will that you 218 00:15:00.320 --> 00:15:03.720 ever used to help you get hired? No? No, no, But 219 00:15:03.000 --> 00:15:09.399 I do have my YouTube channel hashtag Shameless self Promotion DevOps for Developers, which 220 00:15:09.480 --> 00:15:11.200 is it's sort of a video blog, you know, because it covers the 221 00:15:11.240 --> 00:15:15.919 same content that I would put in a blog. I just do videos on 222 00:15:15.960 --> 00:15:18.200 it instead. Yeah, well, I had I've had a blog for years 223 00:15:18.679 --> 00:15:26.679 and it's these days I write every day shameless self plug here as daily to 224 00:15:26.720 --> 00:15:31.679 sign up for my daily emails. But I've had a blog for years it 225 00:15:31.720 --> 00:15:35.720 was. It was usually ad hoc, just whenever I thought of something, 226 00:15:35.840 --> 00:15:37.600 or maybe notes to my future self, like, you know, I solved 227 00:15:37.600 --> 00:15:39.360 a problem and I don't want to forget how I solved it, so I 228 00:15:39.399 --> 00:15:43.039 write a little article about it. And that is invaluable as a job searcher. 229 00:15:43.120 --> 00:15:46.759 I mean, if there's one thing I look for after the get hub 230 00:15:46.840 --> 00:15:50.360 profile, I'm looking to see if you have a blog or other social media 231 00:15:50.399 --> 00:15:54.200 presence, as long as it's easy to find. And I don't just mean 232 00:15:54.320 --> 00:15:56.519 like the tweet a thousand times a week. I mean I want to I 233 00:15:56.559 --> 00:16:03.879 want evidence that you have written about your technical accomplishment because that tells me about 234 00:16:03.919 --> 00:16:07.440 who you are and your technical struggles too. And that's fine. You can 235 00:16:07.480 --> 00:16:11.679 write a blog post about always trying to do docer with this weird thing and 236 00:16:11.720 --> 00:16:14.600 it was so frustrating I couldn't figure it out. That's that's also valid. 237 00:16:14.720 --> 00:16:18.039 The point is write about the technical challenges you're facing and what you're doing about 238 00:16:18.080 --> 00:16:22.120 them. That says so much, and it doesn't have to be just technical, 239 00:16:22.240 --> 00:16:23.360 especially if you're interested in a managerial track. If you got to be 240 00:16:23.399 --> 00:16:27.679 a team leader or move into management. Right about your thoughts on management, 241 00:16:29.039 --> 00:16:32.200 right about a conflict you had with a colleague. Maybe change names if you 242 00:16:32.240 --> 00:16:37.120 have to for an anonymicy talk about the guy who mentored you in a great 243 00:16:37.159 --> 00:16:41.120 new way, or taught you something new and exciting, or something you taught 244 00:16:41.240 --> 00:16:44.960 new and exciting to someone else. Just write about your experiences that you know. 245 00:16:45.159 --> 00:16:49.159 Basically, if this is a way a blog or YouTube whatever, and 246 00:16:49.200 --> 00:16:53.320 to some extent, social media is a great way to extend your interview time 247 00:16:53.559 --> 00:16:57.200 without the interview, you can you know all those questions that your managers will 248 00:16:57.240 --> 00:17:00.159 ask, how did you solve a problem? How did you solve the conflict 249 00:17:00.159 --> 00:17:03.759 of the colleague? Answer those sorts of things in a blog and make it 250 00:17:03.799 --> 00:17:06.440 easy to find so that you know, I need to put the link to 251 00:17:06.480 --> 00:17:07.519 your blog at the top of your CV, right next to your get hub 252 00:17:07.519 --> 00:17:11.279 profile or your phone number, so it's easy to find. And those hiring 253 00:17:11.279 --> 00:17:14.440 managers when they see that stuff, they're not going to spend hours reading your 254 00:17:14.680 --> 00:17:17.319 blog. But if they just if they look at your blog and they see, 255 00:17:17.319 --> 00:17:19.160 oh, this guy writes about doctor and Kubernetes, and oh he has 256 00:17:19.200 --> 00:17:23.319 thoughts about management, that makes a big impression and I don't know. I 257 00:17:23.319 --> 00:17:26.759 mean I've had, as I've been in a candidate, I've had managers and 258 00:17:26.880 --> 00:17:33.200 hiring interviewers mentioned my blog many many times. Though, you know, sometimes 259 00:17:33.200 --> 00:17:34.960 it's small like oh, I saw you write a blog about blah blah blah, 260 00:17:36.079 --> 00:17:38.480 and half the time they're wrong, they've misremembered what it was at the 261 00:17:38.480 --> 00:17:45.480 point right. And sometimes it's more detail, like oh, that blog post 262 00:17:45.519 --> 00:17:48.759 about sessions that was really interesting. I never thought of that before or whatever. 263 00:17:48.839 --> 00:17:52.440 So just having a blog is invaluable as a job searcher. It will 264 00:17:52.480 --> 00:17:55.319 put you that in a get hub profile. Are the two things I can 265 00:17:55.359 --> 00:17:59.920 think of above anything else that will get attention. I mean, those are 266 00:18:00.000 --> 00:18:03.000 literally the two things I look for before I even skim through your employment history. 267 00:18:03.039 --> 00:18:07.880 I'm looking for a profile and a personal website, and then I go 268 00:18:07.920 --> 00:18:11.160 back and look at your employment history for sure. Yeah, agreed. I 269 00:18:11.200 --> 00:18:15.440 think one of the on your personal website, which I think is starting to 270 00:18:15.480 --> 00:18:18.920 stand out, is like one of the key things to do here. One 271 00:18:18.960 --> 00:18:22.400 other thing I think a category I rarely see on there, but I think 272 00:18:22.480 --> 00:18:27.039 is super important to have is a testimonials section. For multiple reasons. One, 273 00:18:27.160 --> 00:18:32.759 I think it's good for you to get into the habit of asking people 274 00:18:32.799 --> 00:18:37.559 that you've previously worked with for testimonials, you know, to find out like, 275 00:18:37.000 --> 00:18:41.880 what did you do that they liked? And it's funny because I've always 276 00:18:41.960 --> 00:18:45.599 said, if you know, there's like the party question. You know, 277 00:18:45.640 --> 00:18:48.640 if you could have a superpower, what would it be. Mine has always 278 00:18:48.680 --> 00:18:52.880 been to see myself through someone else's eyes, to see what how they see 279 00:18:52.920 --> 00:18:56.880 me, And testimonials are like a little brief snapshot, and how to do 280 00:18:56.920 --> 00:19:00.440 that. It'll help you refine what you're strong at that you may not have 281 00:19:00.480 --> 00:19:03.960 known that you were strong at. But then, for the purposes of this 282 00:19:04.319 --> 00:19:11.039 podcast, someone who is thinking about hiring you, they're going to get an 283 00:19:11.160 --> 00:19:15.839 unbiased person's opinion on what it's like to work with you, which may help 284 00:19:17.319 --> 00:19:21.160 put you in a more favorable light as they're building out their short list of 285 00:19:21.200 --> 00:19:25.160 candidates to call in. That's a great piece of advice. I would add 286 00:19:25.200 --> 00:19:30.519 to that when you ask for testimonials, try to ask specific questions. But 287 00:19:30.599 --> 00:19:32.279 basically, in other words, if I say, hey, will would you 288 00:19:32.279 --> 00:19:34.279 at a testimonial, You're probably going to write something, Oh yeah, I 289 00:19:34.279 --> 00:19:37.160 know. Jonathan from the Adventures and DevOps podcast he's a great guy. He's 290 00:19:37.200 --> 00:19:41.319 really funny, great guy, and there's nothing wrong with that. Yeah, 291 00:19:41.720 --> 00:19:45.079 there's nothing wrong with that, But it doesn't really tell anybody whether I know 292 00:19:45.119 --> 00:19:48.720 anything at all about DevOps or whatever I might be applying for. So I 293 00:19:48.720 --> 00:19:52.880 think it's important to ask ask direct questions, things like what would you think 294 00:19:52.880 --> 00:19:56.599 were the biggest strengths or what were my biggest strengths on this team? Or 295 00:19:56.599 --> 00:19:59.960 what were my biggest contributions to this project. If you ask things like that 296 00:20:00.079 --> 00:20:03.200 or specific, uh, You're going to get a better testimonial uh. And 297 00:20:03.240 --> 00:20:06.359 this goes. This is the same as like when you when you write a 298 00:20:06.359 --> 00:20:10.920 TV you want to talk about your accomplishments more than your responsibilities. Right, 299 00:20:11.039 --> 00:20:17.720 we did a good job or not responsible. Tell me that you managed the 300 00:20:17.759 --> 00:20:22.279 Kubernetes cluster for ten thousand nodes or whatever, and you had an uptime of 301 00:20:22.319 --> 00:20:26.759 blah blah blah, or you increased the uptime from eighty percent to ninety nine. 302 00:20:26.079 --> 00:20:29.640 You know, something like that. Tell me about an accomplishment something that 303 00:20:29.680 --> 00:20:32.880 you that you did, that you put moved the needle on. If you're 304 00:20:32.880 --> 00:20:36.720 going to ask your your testimonial givers, how did you move the needle and 305 00:20:37.000 --> 00:20:38.920 experiment with different ways to ask that you know it doesn't and if it's somebody 306 00:20:38.960 --> 00:20:41.559 you're close to, hopefully it is you can. You can ask several different 307 00:20:41.559 --> 00:20:45.160 ways to get a powerful testimonial. It's not just he's a nice guy. 308 00:20:45.200 --> 00:20:48.079 I'd love to work with him again, that's fine. At least at least 309 00:20:48.079 --> 00:20:52.519 we know you're not not a complete jerk. But that's a pretty low bar 310 00:20:52.640 --> 00:20:56.480 to when you're trying to stand out above everybody else in an interview. For 311 00:20:56.519 --> 00:21:03.759 sure. Yeah, and I'll just admit to this right here. I've asked 312 00:21:03.759 --> 00:21:07.480 people for testimonials, gotten it back, rewritten it, sent it back over 313 00:21:07.519 --> 00:21:10.480 to them, and said, hey, can I change it to this? 314 00:21:11.119 --> 00:21:15.400 And then, you know, get their approval before I put before I attribute 315 00:21:15.400 --> 00:21:21.000 it to them. But because writing testimonials, testimonials is actually pretty hard, 316 00:21:21.200 --> 00:21:26.000 So it's okay to offer feedback on the testimonial that you like. As you 317 00:21:26.039 --> 00:21:27.240 said, make sure you get the permission first. Yeah, for sure, 318 00:21:27.319 --> 00:21:33.000 don't just rewrite it because you don't like what they said. Yeah, and 319 00:21:33.119 --> 00:21:38.480 don't do like this one company I worked for that will remain nameless and make 320 00:21:38.559 --> 00:21:45.640 up testimonials and then just attribute them to John or Bill, you know, 321 00:21:45.720 --> 00:21:52.200 first name only attributions, right, what else? So let's talk about I 322 00:21:52.200 --> 00:21:56.400 want to cover one more thing on the resume. Whenever you do a resume, 323 00:21:56.000 --> 00:22:00.599 or fill out a resume, or fill out the job application, whatever, 324 00:22:00.680 --> 00:22:04.519 the process of raising your hand and saying I'm interested is one of the 325 00:22:04.519 --> 00:22:10.680 things I think that really helps is to open up their job description side by 326 00:22:10.799 --> 00:22:17.359 side with the application or your resume and rephrase a lot of the statements from 327 00:22:17.519 --> 00:22:22.599 their ideal candidate and their roles and responsibility section of the job description. Rephrase 328 00:22:22.720 --> 00:22:27.960 those into things I've done in your resume. You know, obviously don't lie, 329 00:22:29.680 --> 00:22:33.359 but if they say, hey, we're looking for somebody with experience creating 330 00:22:33.400 --> 00:22:37.920 helm charts for Kubernetes in your resume, you should have a bullet point that 331 00:22:37.960 --> 00:22:44.839 says I created helm charts for Kubernetes in this particular project. And you just 332 00:22:44.880 --> 00:22:51.319 want to create like a Ven diagram where there's this huge overlapping middle section of 333 00:22:51.480 --> 00:22:55.960 things that they're looking for and things that you've demonstrated you've done on your resume. 334 00:22:56.480 --> 00:23:00.680 You know, I heard recently of somebody copying and pasting the job description 335 00:23:00.839 --> 00:23:08.799 in a one point white font so then it would pass you know, all 336 00:23:08.799 --> 00:23:14.359 their all the keyword filters. It would definitely hit everyone, right. I 337 00:23:14.359 --> 00:23:17.839 don't recommend this approach, yeah, because uh, you know, if somebody 338 00:23:17.880 --> 00:23:21.559 sees you're doing that, you're probably you're probably in the on the burn pile 339 00:23:21.599 --> 00:23:26.680 immediately for sure. Yeah, unless it's a job for like SEO management, 340 00:23:26.720 --> 00:23:33.880 then the might you might be in there. Yeah. So we talked about 341 00:23:33.200 --> 00:23:38.279 having a public profile, listing your projects on your resume, adding those to 342 00:23:38.799 --> 00:23:42.480 your blog. For a lot of people getting started, started out though, 343 00:23:42.599 --> 00:23:47.640 just starting their DevOps career, this is going to be a challenging time to 344 00:23:47.960 --> 00:23:52.519 get started for you know, probably the next few years at a minimum. 345 00:23:52.599 --> 00:23:56.200 So how do they go? How do they break that chicken and egg cycle. 346 00:23:56.359 --> 00:24:00.480 I need experience in order to get a job. I need job in 347 00:24:00.559 --> 00:24:06.359 order to get experience. Well, the simple answer to speak isn't the simple 348 00:24:06.400 --> 00:24:08.200 answer to do. But I think I think what it comes down to is 349 00:24:08.240 --> 00:24:11.839 getting the experience outside of a paid job, if at all possible. Yeah, 350 00:24:11.880 --> 00:24:15.000 I mean, maybe you're waiting tables at Denny's for a few years like 351 00:24:15.039 --> 00:24:19.200 I did, but in the evenings, go set up a Kubernetes pluster on 352 00:24:19.200 --> 00:24:23.000 your Raspberry Pie or whatever it is. And you know that's how I got 353 00:24:23.039 --> 00:24:26.200 my first job. I mean I was. I was a teen creer and 354 00:24:26.200 --> 00:24:30.000 a hacker forever, and I was I was running my own dial up modem 355 00:24:30.039 --> 00:24:33.920 ISP from my parents' house high school. But you know that meant that I 356 00:24:33.960 --> 00:24:37.440 had experience when I was ready for a job. You know who else in 357 00:24:37.559 --> 00:24:41.160 nineteen ninety eight had been running a dial up ISP in the bedroom, you 358 00:24:41.200 --> 00:24:45.720 know, on that stack of cvs, I was the only one I could 359 00:24:45.759 --> 00:24:48.000 guarantee that. So if those skills were at all in line with what they 360 00:24:48.000 --> 00:24:51.880 wanted, I jumped right to the top of that list. So whatever your 361 00:24:51.960 --> 00:24:56.160 your hobbies are, if it's Kubernetes on a Raspberry Pie or bitcoin mining or 362 00:24:56.200 --> 00:25:00.000 whatever, find a way to do that stuff, build your three M contracts 363 00:25:00.079 --> 00:25:02.880 or whatever it is in your spare time. I no, not everybody has 364 00:25:02.920 --> 00:25:04.720 spare time. That's not fair, but that's life. But if you do 365 00:25:04.799 --> 00:25:07.720 have spare time, find a way to do that. Even if it's just 366 00:25:07.720 --> 00:25:11.440 an hour a day, or even hour a week, that's better than that's 367 00:25:11.680 --> 00:25:14.480 an hour week more than ninety percent of the people out there, So it 368 00:25:14.480 --> 00:25:17.680 doesn't take a lot to be better than average, because average is a pretty 369 00:25:17.680 --> 00:25:19.640 low bar in most cases. Yeah, yeah, for sure. I think 370 00:25:19.680 --> 00:25:25.160 the key there is just always moving forward, even if it's only five minutes 371 00:25:25.200 --> 00:25:30.400 at a time. One of the things I recommend for people to do is 372 00:25:30.559 --> 00:25:37.319 go to Pakathon's meetups, hang out in places where other developers are. So 373 00:25:37.359 --> 00:25:42.200 if you're interested in DevOps, you're kind of in a supporting role for developers. 374 00:25:42.240 --> 00:25:47.200 So go where the developers are and you're going to find a bunch of 375 00:25:47.240 --> 00:25:52.079 developers who are at the same spot in their career that you are in your 376 00:25:52.200 --> 00:25:56.640 career. So they're trying to build their portfolio app and have no idea how 377 00:25:56.680 --> 00:26:02.079 to get this thing live and deployed. So partner up with them, say, 378 00:26:02.119 --> 00:26:04.000 hey, you write the code to build your app, I'll do the 379 00:26:04.039 --> 00:26:08.240 CICD for it and then put it in a public repo, and you both 380 00:26:08.480 --> 00:26:14.240 get to work together to build some portfolio work that you can show off and 381 00:26:14.319 --> 00:26:18.920 demonstrate. And one of the hidden benefits of that is you're actually doing the 382 00:26:18.920 --> 00:26:22.920 thing that you would be doing if you had a DevOps job, you know, 383 00:26:22.039 --> 00:26:26.039 working with developers, understanding what they're trying to do, helping them get 384 00:26:26.079 --> 00:26:32.160 their code to production faster. You're one hundred percent doing the job, and 385 00:26:32.200 --> 00:26:37.119 then you're also just working on building your network and building friendships. And you 386 00:26:37.160 --> 00:26:40.680 know, as as all of you advanced through your career, you're going to 387 00:26:40.759 --> 00:26:45.079 remember those days and someday, you know, they may be working at a 388 00:26:45.079 --> 00:26:49.039 Fortune one hundred company and need a DevOps person. Remember your name from back 389 00:26:49.039 --> 00:26:53.440 in the day. Yeah, you reminded me of a concept that I thought 390 00:26:53.440 --> 00:26:56.839 was pretty groundbreaking when I first learned it a year ago or so. When 391 00:26:56.880 --> 00:27:00.880 it comes to learning, and this is a complicate the thing on anywhere in 392 00:27:00.960 --> 00:27:03.599 tech, but especially in DevOps or even software development, where we just have 393 00:27:03.640 --> 00:27:08.200 to learn so many things. If you look at ten companies looking for DevOps 394 00:27:08.319 --> 00:27:12.519 related roles, they probably have ten different technology stacks. Some of them are 395 00:27:12.640 --> 00:27:15.559 using Java, some are on Rubies, some are PHP, some are you 396 00:27:15.599 --> 00:27:18.440 know whatever, some are on albs. I'm on Google, some mazures, 397 00:27:18.480 --> 00:27:22.680 some are using Kubernetes them aren't you. It's just it's all over the board, 398 00:27:22.920 --> 00:27:26.559 and there's no way you can learn all of the key technologies for all 399 00:27:26.599 --> 00:27:29.640 of those ten companies, let alone the hundred you might be looking at. 400 00:27:29.799 --> 00:27:32.640 So the concept, it's one I got from a book. I'll make it 401 00:27:32.680 --> 00:27:34.880 my pick later on. I'll mention the book then. But the concept is 402 00:27:34.880 --> 00:27:38.279 one called knowledge options, so you know, think of it like stock options. 403 00:27:38.440 --> 00:27:44.240 A stock option is the right to buy stock at a certain price in 404 00:27:44.240 --> 00:27:45.960 the future if you want to, but it's not an obligation to do it 405 00:27:47.039 --> 00:27:51.839 right. So normally, I think the way most people get overwhelmed with so 406 00:27:51.920 --> 00:27:53.079 much to learn is they're thinking, how much do I have to learn right 407 00:27:53.119 --> 00:27:59.680 now? Knowledge options turns that around and it basically you learn just enough about 408 00:27:59.720 --> 00:28:03.400 each technology that you can't do it yet, but you know what's required to 409 00:28:03.480 --> 00:28:07.640 learn enough. So let's say that the topic is Kubernetes. You've heard the 410 00:28:07.680 --> 00:28:11.160 buzzword a thousand times. You don't even know what kubernettes really is yet, 411 00:28:11.240 --> 00:28:15.640 So spend an hour or an afternoon reading up on kubernetes. Get the basic 412 00:28:15.720 --> 00:28:18.680 idea down. So oh, I realized, I understand how kubernetes what it 413 00:28:18.799 --> 00:28:23.799 is now. It manages Docker containers basically, and it manages network meshes blah 414 00:28:23.799 --> 00:28:26.640 blah blah. You know, you still don't know how to use it, 415 00:28:26.720 --> 00:28:29.759 but you have a concept of what it is. And then to a more 416 00:28:29.839 --> 00:28:33.759 or less extent, figure out how long would it take me to learn enough 417 00:28:33.759 --> 00:28:37.160 to be useful with Kubernetes, and maybe that number is three months or three 418 00:28:37.200 --> 00:28:41.480 weeks or or whatever, and then just make a note, a mental note, 419 00:28:41.480 --> 00:28:44.200 maybe a physical note. All right, Kubernetes, I know what it 420 00:28:44.279 --> 00:28:45.319 is, and it's going to take me three months to learn enough. All 421 00:28:45.400 --> 00:28:48.880 right, that's all I need to know for right now. That's your knowledge 422 00:28:48.920 --> 00:28:52.720 option. Now you have the option when Kubernetes becomes required, you know what 423 00:28:52.200 --> 00:28:55.880 it is. You can talk intelligently about it, at least enough for an 424 00:28:55.880 --> 00:28:59.359 interview or at a meetup, and you can now exercise that option when you 425 00:28:59.400 --> 00:29:02.759 want to without wasting the three months on something you may not actually need. 426 00:29:02.839 --> 00:29:04.759 And they do the same thing for AWS, and do the same thing for 427 00:29:04.799 --> 00:29:07.079 Google Cloud, and do the same thing for Terraform and so on and so 428 00:29:07.119 --> 00:29:11.440 forth. And then you have a collection of these twenty five different technologies. 429 00:29:11.480 --> 00:29:14.359 You know a little bit about each one, not enough to use any of 430 00:29:14.400 --> 00:29:18.200 them in your job, but enough to know what's required to go to that 431 00:29:18.240 --> 00:29:21.880 next step. So that's a knowledge option. It's something really powerful, especially 432 00:29:22.799 --> 00:29:25.720 when you don't have the knowledge yet. That's the whole point. So that's 433 00:29:25.799 --> 00:29:29.000 really useful early in your career. It's really useful late in your career too, 434 00:29:32.000 --> 00:29:34.359 especially in this career where this new technology is popping up faster than it 435 00:29:34.359 --> 00:29:37.960 could possibly learn them all. But that that's a really powerful concept. I 436 00:29:37.279 --> 00:29:40.519 just found it kind of eye opening when I learned about that concept. I'll 437 00:29:40.519 --> 00:29:42.160 share the title of the book later where that came from. Yeah, that's 438 00:29:42.160 --> 00:29:45.799 super cool. It reminds me. I've always thought there was this correlation. 439 00:29:47.119 --> 00:29:52.440 You know, the Japanese had the conbine process or just in time manufacturing, 440 00:29:52.519 --> 00:29:59.359 where building automobiles, like the tires showed up literally minutes before the worker needed 441 00:29:59.359 --> 00:30:03.599 the tires for the car and the assembly line. I've always thought that in 442 00:30:03.680 --> 00:30:10.519 technology we're moving towards this just in time learning model where you can't possibly know 443 00:30:10.680 --> 00:30:14.720 everything that you're going to need to know for the next five years. So 444 00:30:14.759 --> 00:30:18.359 instead of stressing over that, just sort of what you just described, be 445 00:30:18.440 --> 00:30:22.680 familiar with the topic, and then when you have to implement it, learn 446 00:30:22.720 --> 00:30:26.440 it just in time to implement it. Yeah, And the truth is that's 447 00:30:26.440 --> 00:30:30.240 good enough for most things. There aren't we occasionally we need a true in 448 00:30:30.279 --> 00:30:33.279 depth Cubernetes expert, but we don't most of the time. Most of the 449 00:30:33.279 --> 00:30:36.160 time, would you sed, somebody's a base level knowledge, something they learned 450 00:30:36.200 --> 00:30:38.000 in three months, it's usually enough to get the job done. So I 451 00:30:38.039 --> 00:30:41.279 wrote about this on my blog. I'll have a link to that also, 452 00:30:41.559 --> 00:30:44.880 and the show notes, and then yeah, the book title I'll share later 453 00:30:44.920 --> 00:30:48.720 on. Right on. So we covered resumes, personal projects, GitHub profile, 454 00:30:49.240 --> 00:30:53.000 social media proof maybe stack overflow. It's kind of social media, but 455 00:30:53.200 --> 00:30:56.599 it is. Yeah, I'll mention that. So one place I found to 456 00:30:56.680 --> 00:31:00.359 be useful sometimes when looking for jobs, actually not even looking, but I've 457 00:31:00.400 --> 00:31:03.599 had a few jobs come to me through stack overflow. I don't know if 458 00:31:03.640 --> 00:31:07.400 this is a this isn't really a life hack because it's kind of one of 459 00:31:07.400 --> 00:31:10.839 those things that requires investment. I mean, I've been on stack overflow for 460 00:31:10.880 --> 00:31:14.079 eleven years and I have something like sixty thousand reputation I think. But I've 461 00:31:14.079 --> 00:31:15.960 been I've been really active lately in the last few years on the go tag, 462 00:31:17.079 --> 00:31:18.720 so that I've had a couple of people reach out to me. They 463 00:31:18.720 --> 00:31:22.200 found an answer where I'd answer one of the questions on the go tag. 464 00:31:22.759 --> 00:31:26.440 They and so you have to put your contact details in your profile there, 465 00:31:26.519 --> 00:31:29.319 but I linked to my website. They found me to that, and actually 466 00:31:29.319 --> 00:31:30.720 that's how I got my current job was through stack overflow, and I've had 467 00:31:30.720 --> 00:31:34.519 a couple other short term contract jobs that way. So if you're a stack 468 00:31:34.519 --> 00:31:38.319 overflow user, especially when who answers questions, I think that's a great way 469 00:31:38.440 --> 00:31:41.920 to get a little bit bit of publicity. Make sure you put a nice 470 00:31:42.000 --> 00:31:47.599 pick a nice name. This professional. We don't want bog Water forty three 471 00:31:47.640 --> 00:31:52.480 anymore. Put a nice professional name on there, put a nice little profile, 472 00:31:52.480 --> 00:31:56.559 put your GitHub and your and your website links in your stack overfill profile, 473 00:31:56.799 --> 00:32:00.720 and say I'm looking for work or I'm available for work if you're interested, 474 00:32:00.880 --> 00:32:04.960 and answer some provide some high quality answers on our topic you're familiar with, 475 00:32:05.000 --> 00:32:08.279 whatever that is, whether it's Kubernetes or JavaScript or whatever. Asking questions 476 00:32:08.319 --> 00:32:10.799 is great too, but the way to get the jobs, in my experience 477 00:32:10.839 --> 00:32:14.960 is answering questions on a topic you're familiar with. Yeah, I think I 478 00:32:15.000 --> 00:32:20.640 think one thing worth pointing out on that is that is a long play game. 479 00:32:20.720 --> 00:32:22.400 You know, it's going to take take a while to build up your 480 00:32:22.519 --> 00:32:27.839 reputation, but it's it's worth doing same thing for well, same thing for 481 00:32:27.880 --> 00:32:30.720 a lot of the stuff we've talked about in this entire episode. None of 482 00:32:30.759 --> 00:32:35.960 it is a magic silver bullet to land a job in the next twenty four 483 00:32:36.000 --> 00:32:39.559 hours. And I think for the next few years the job process, regardless 484 00:32:39.559 --> 00:32:44.000 of what your experience has been up to this point, I think you can 485 00:32:44.119 --> 00:32:49.039 anticipate that finding a job is going to take longer for the next few years 486 00:32:49.079 --> 00:32:53.920 at a minimum. So don't get discouraged, stay persistent, and set up 487 00:32:54.119 --> 00:32:59.759 some type of schedule, some type of reminder or accountability system where you are 488 00:33:00.400 --> 00:33:04.519 continuously moving all of these things forward. You know, you're curating your stack 489 00:33:04.599 --> 00:33:09.599 overflow profile, you're curating your blog content, you're curating your social media profiles, 490 00:33:09.680 --> 00:33:14.359 all of that stuff, just so that they're always moving forward and then 491 00:33:14.400 --> 00:33:17.559 that that long tail traffic does pay off over time. Yeah, and a 492 00:33:17.559 --> 00:33:21.799 couple points on that. Don't watch your web statistics. Do not look at 493 00:33:21.839 --> 00:33:29.680 googling. Sure, the first time I had my blog helped me land a 494 00:33:29.759 --> 00:33:32.759 job. I had fifty visitors a month or something. The thing is, 495 00:33:32.839 --> 00:33:37.559 it's not about volume, and it's not even about people finding you through search 496 00:33:37.559 --> 00:33:40.319 engines. It's about somebody who saw your CV and they followed the link to 497 00:33:40.359 --> 00:33:44.039 your blog and they were impressed. That's all it is. So you're going 498 00:33:44.079 --> 00:33:46.400 to get three visits a month that way, but they're powerful visits. So 499 00:33:46.480 --> 00:33:51.359 do not look at or get depressed over your stats. Those stats are absolutely 500 00:33:51.400 --> 00:33:54.480 meaningless for this purpose. The other thing I want to talk about is soft 501 00:33:54.480 --> 00:33:58.960 skills. That's something we can all work to improve. But it's a great 502 00:33:59.039 --> 00:34:01.880 thing that to work on when you're when you're looking for work, network with 503 00:34:01.920 --> 00:34:07.599 people at meetups, work on help, work on helping people learn, and 504 00:34:07.680 --> 00:34:09.840 just work on improving your soft skills. Those are those are always in demand, 505 00:34:10.199 --> 00:34:13.400 and they're going to be more in demand. I mean when it's a 506 00:34:13.559 --> 00:34:15.800 when it's a candidate's market, you can afford to be a little bit pickier 507 00:34:16.079 --> 00:34:20.639 or less refined to the soft skills because they need your talent so bad. 508 00:34:21.400 --> 00:34:23.840 When there's a thousand applicants out there, they're gonna pick the guy who talks 509 00:34:23.960 --> 00:34:28.920 nice, They're gonna pick the girl who takes the time to explain things sweetly. 510 00:34:29.039 --> 00:34:31.159 They're gonna there. Those soft skills are going to really be important. 511 00:34:31.199 --> 00:34:35.800 So take the time. If you don't already have them take the time to 512 00:34:35.840 --> 00:34:38.719 develop your soft skills. You can't be the loner nerd in the office corner 513 00:34:38.719 --> 00:34:44.519 anymore. You have to be the nice guy for sure. Yeah, there's 514 00:34:44.679 --> 00:34:47.000 there's just a ton of truth to that, you know. Having the ability 515 00:34:47.039 --> 00:34:54.800 to communicate your ideas, to advocate for something whenever it's not like the current 516 00:34:54.880 --> 00:35:00.679 direction of the conversation. To be able to advocate and steer it a conversation 517 00:35:00.079 --> 00:35:06.280 and be a team player is huge, whether it's weather wearing, good times 518 00:35:06.480 --> 00:35:10.320 or bad times. It's a skill that's gonna serve you well over the long 519 00:35:10.400 --> 00:35:15.400 term. There's a quote from Ozzy Osbourne of all people that I heard, 520 00:35:17.559 --> 00:35:22.480 no, no, as soon as actually a legitimate quote. He said, 521 00:35:21.960 --> 00:35:24.800 be nice to the people you meet on your way up the ladder, because 522 00:35:24.840 --> 00:35:29.800 you're gonna meet them again on your way back down. And I was like, 523 00:35:29.880 --> 00:35:34.960 wow, dude, that is deep nice. Yeah. So there you 524 00:35:35.000 --> 00:35:37.039 go. If you've got nothing else in this episode, you've got a quote 525 00:35:37.079 --> 00:35:42.320 from Ozzy Osbourne that you can work into conversation while you're building those social skills. 526 00:35:44.599 --> 00:35:46.920 Awesome, all right, anything else to add I think we've been around 527 00:35:46.960 --> 00:35:52.199 the track. Yeah right, yeah, grammarly as well, yeah, that's 528 00:35:52.239 --> 00:35:55.079 a good one, especially if you're not a native speaker. Yeah, of 529 00:35:55.119 --> 00:35:59.280 whatever language. I'm assuming English, but you could be implying another languages. 530 00:35:59.320 --> 00:36:02.199 So yeah, use a grammar check and spell check actually, especially if you 531 00:36:02.280 --> 00:36:07.360 are a native speaker of English, because a lot of us have assumptions that 532 00:36:07.760 --> 00:36:12.159 when you use a tool like grammarly you're like, oh, I didn't know 533 00:36:12.239 --> 00:36:15.199 that. Yeah, put the most important part of your TV in the top 534 00:36:15.239 --> 00:36:17.960 half of the first page. That's so much more important than is it one 535 00:36:19.000 --> 00:36:22.679 page or two pages of three pages. Just assume that the first half of 536 00:36:22.719 --> 00:36:24.400 the first page is what will be skimmed and put the important stuff there. 537 00:36:24.559 --> 00:36:27.719 Yeah. Yeah, that's a really good point, right. Cool. We 538 00:36:27.760 --> 00:36:30.880 could talk about cvs for a while, but I think they're far less important 539 00:36:30.880 --> 00:36:32.679 than everything else were discussed at this point. So yeah, at this point, 540 00:36:32.679 --> 00:36:37.920 I think the it's just a launching point to get It's a place to 541 00:36:37.960 --> 00:36:40.280 hold the links to get to the meaningful stuff exactly. So make sure those 542 00:36:40.320 --> 00:36:44.360 links are at the top. Don't put your gut hell profile at the end. 543 00:36:44.519 --> 00:36:47.320 That's like your name and get help profile, personal website, phone number, 544 00:36:47.360 --> 00:36:50.719 that that should be the order of the top the top four things on 545 00:36:50.760 --> 00:36:52.800 your CV, I think, yep, for sure. Cool, all right, 546 00:36:52.880 --> 00:36:58.159 let's do some picks. Yeah, so I'm going to pick the book. 547 00:36:58.239 --> 00:37:00.199 I think I picked it on this program before, but it's a bit 548 00:37:00.199 --> 00:37:01.599 a while and I just mentioned it, so I have to pick now. 549 00:37:01.719 --> 00:37:06.039 It's the book that taught me about knowledge options, and it's the book is 550 00:37:06.039 --> 00:37:10.039 called Commitment, a novel about managing risk, or I'm sorry, Commitment a 551 00:37:10.079 --> 00:37:15.599 novel about managing project risk. And it's it's a fictionalized graphic novel of all 552 00:37:15.679 --> 00:37:20.559 things. I never read a graphic novel until this. But it's about a 553 00:37:20.599 --> 00:37:24.119 project manager who's working on a struggling project. But really the point of it 554 00:37:24.159 --> 00:37:30.280 is how to how to use what's called real options, which is a technical 555 00:37:30.360 --> 00:37:35.599 term for basically waiting until the last minute to make the last responsible minute to 556 00:37:35.599 --> 00:37:38.039 make decisions so you're not committed to something that might turn out to be the 557 00:37:38.039 --> 00:37:43.760 wrong answer. So it's really applicable to software delivery and technology in general. 558 00:37:43.800 --> 00:37:45.360 It's even applicable to the way you drive your car to work in the morning, 559 00:37:45.440 --> 00:37:47.639 if you want to think about it that way. You know, should 560 00:37:47.639 --> 00:37:51.519 I change lanes in now or wait until later? So it's really applicable to 561 00:37:51.599 --> 00:37:55.199 all areas of life, but it's specifically about project management, which I don't 562 00:37:55.199 --> 00:37:58.239 know. I enjoyed it. It's a graphic novel, as I said, 563 00:37:58.280 --> 00:38:00.599 so you don't probably, I mean, I guess guess you could get a 564 00:38:00.639 --> 00:38:02.679 kindle version if there is one, but you really want to see the pages. 565 00:38:02.960 --> 00:38:07.440 Yeah, so yeah, that's my recommendation commitment novel about managing project risk 566 00:38:07.599 --> 00:38:12.639 by Olav Massen and others. Lincoln right on, I'm going to check it 567 00:38:12.639 --> 00:38:15.639 out. I'm just interested because you mentioned that it's a graphic novel, and 568 00:38:15.760 --> 00:38:20.840 now I'm like, I gotta I gotta see what that's about. Novels are 569 00:38:20.840 --> 00:38:22.760 for nerds, all right, and maybe they are. I don't know that. 570 00:38:23.360 --> 00:38:25.760 I guess I'm a nerd now because I've read one. It makes me 571 00:38:25.840 --> 00:38:30.159 wonder, like, could I pull off a book on Kubernetes. It's like 572 00:38:30.199 --> 00:38:34.559 a coloring book or dot to dots. I want the link to sign up 573 00:38:34.559 --> 00:38:40.840 for that already. It's a dot to dot which you've got to identify the 574 00:38:40.920 --> 00:38:45.840 prime numbers to connect your doctor container to the Kubernetes control plane. Nice. 575 00:38:46.400 --> 00:38:53.199 Yeah, yeah, all right, I'm on it. So my pick is 576 00:38:53.239 --> 00:38:57.119 going to be. There's a new book out from a guy named Thiago Forte 577 00:38:57.239 --> 00:39:00.920 called it Building a Second Brain. You may have heard of his content. 578 00:39:01.079 --> 00:39:05.360 This is his first book, but he's been doing the Building a Second Brain 579 00:39:05.440 --> 00:39:08.880 content for a while. I got the book because I am horribly unorganized. 580 00:39:08.920 --> 00:39:13.920 I've got stuff in dropbox, I've got it in Apple Notes, I've got 581 00:39:13.960 --> 00:39:20.039 it in ever note, Google docs, notion and post it notes and three 582 00:39:20.119 --> 00:39:23.480 ring binders, and I have all these notes, but I can never find 583 00:39:23.559 --> 00:39:28.039 any of them whenever I need it. And so the Building a Second Brain 584 00:39:28.599 --> 00:39:34.119 is his strategy for organizing all of that stuff so that you can find it 585 00:39:34.199 --> 00:39:36.960 and when you're looking for it, you know where to look, which is 586 00:39:37.239 --> 00:39:39.039 the big obstacle for me, Like, I know I have this piece of 587 00:39:39.039 --> 00:39:43.320 content somewhere, but for the life of me, can't figure out where it's 588 00:39:43.360 --> 00:39:46.920 at. So if you're unorganized like me, check it out Building a Second 589 00:39:46.920 --> 00:39:52.039 Brain by Tiago Forte. And yeah, with that, best of luck in 590 00:39:52.079 --> 00:39:57.960 your job search. Let us know on social media if we overlooked anything, 591 00:39:58.199 --> 00:40:01.559 or even call us out if you think completely wrong on something because or even 592 00:40:01.599 --> 00:40:05.119 halfway wrong, ie you completely wrong. To want to know about it. 593 00:40:05.320 --> 00:40:07.760 Yeah, I mean, I'm not aware of any instances, but there are 594 00:40:07.920 --> 00:40:12.159 rumors that I've been wrong before in the past, so I'm curious to get 595 00:40:12.199 --> 00:40:16.559 your feedback. You know, I thought I was wrong once, but then 596 00:40:16.599 --> 00:40:23.119 I realized I wasn't all right everyone, thanks for listening. Thanks Jonathan, 597 00:40:23.159 --> 00:40:25.000 I'll see you next week. Until next time,