1 00:00:14,119 --> 00:00:18,800 What's going on? Everybody. Welcome to another exciting episode of Adventures and DevOps. 2 00:00:19,199 --> 00:00:23,239 I'm your host today, Will Button and joining me in the studio is 3 00:00:23,359 --> 00:00:27,719 Jonathan Hall. Hey, well, how's it going excellent? So today we 4 00:00:27,760 --> 00:00:32,920 are going to talk about some relevant some relevant topics. You know, we've 5 00:00:32,960 --> 00:00:36,560 seen in the news a lot a lot of layoffs happening. A lot of 6 00:00:36,560 --> 00:00:40,159 companies have announced that they're going to freeze the hiring process, and so the 7 00:00:40,240 --> 00:00:43,679 end result is, if you're looking for a job, it's going to get 8 00:00:43,719 --> 00:00:47,119 a lot more difficult than what it has been in years past. So we're 9 00:00:47,119 --> 00:00:50,679 going to talk about some tips and tricks. Both Jonathan and I have been 10 00:00:50,719 --> 00:00:53,320 doing this for a while. We've been through a few of these up and 11 00:00:53,359 --> 00:00:56,359 down cycles. So we're going to share with you some of the things we've 12 00:00:56,439 --> 00:01:00,479 learned over the last few decades that might help you stand out the job search 13 00:01:00,640 --> 00:01:07,200 process. Awesome, So, do you know anybody will before we get started, 14 00:01:07,239 --> 00:01:11,439 you know anybody who's been laid off recently? No, I don't know 15 00:01:11,480 --> 00:01:15,159 anyone personally who's been laid off. There's some people that I followed them, 16 00:01:15,159 --> 00:01:19,560 they follow me on Twitter that have been impacted and I know a few close 17 00:01:19,599 --> 00:01:26,159 friends who haven't been laid off, but they are feeling pretty insecure currently. 18 00:01:26,400 --> 00:01:27,280 Yeah, I think I'm in the same situation. In fact, I just 19 00:01:27,359 --> 00:01:32,560 had a chat earlier today with a former colleague who is working freelance for a 20 00:01:32,599 --> 00:01:34,760 company. He's not doing DevOps, but he's a front end developer and was 21 00:01:34,920 --> 00:01:40,719 just told recently that they're going to be ending freelance contracts because of the downturn. 22 00:01:40,879 --> 00:01:44,120 So yeah, I haven't had a personal impact or anybody I know, 23 00:01:44,200 --> 00:01:46,480 but it's the same as you on social media. I know some people. 24 00:01:47,040 --> 00:01:51,120 It's definitely a big thing. Companies are starting to do hiring freezes, in 25 00:01:51,239 --> 00:01:53,680 layoffs, and even maybe even I don't know if this is worse, but 26 00:01:53,959 --> 00:01:59,239 just renegging on offers, you know, retracting offers after they've been made, 27 00:01:59,400 --> 00:02:02,000 which is really disappointing as a job as a job seeker. You finally got 28 00:02:02,000 --> 00:02:07,000 a contract, you quit your job, maybe you went on a short holiday 29 00:02:07,400 --> 00:02:09,080 excited about your new job, and then you discovered there is no new job 30 00:02:09,120 --> 00:02:14,080 for you. Yeah, Coinbase stands out in my mind. They just did 31 00:02:14,120 --> 00:02:20,280 that recently. Yeah, So I think the first thing that stands out in 32 00:02:20,319 --> 00:02:24,199 my mind is when you're applying for a job in times like these, you've 33 00:02:24,280 --> 00:02:29,800 really got to go out of your way to stand out from the other candidates. 34 00:02:29,840 --> 00:02:35,439 And I think it falls into three different categories where you can stand out. 35 00:02:35,879 --> 00:02:40,800 One is your resume slash cover letter, if you still use a cover 36 00:02:40,879 --> 00:02:46,280 letter. The other is your social media profile, which I've talked with quite 37 00:02:46,280 --> 00:02:49,960 a few people about this and this actually catches some people off guard. And 38 00:02:50,000 --> 00:02:57,439 then the third I think is your work history or publicly viewable projects to demonstrate 39 00:02:57,479 --> 00:03:00,879 your capabilities. Yeah, think that. I think those are all great areas 40 00:03:00,879 --> 00:03:04,719 to focus on. I wrote an article. I'll put a link to it 41 00:03:04,759 --> 00:03:07,360 in the show notes. I wrote an article a couple of years ago for 42 00:03:07,439 --> 00:03:12,080 a recruitment agency here in the Netherlands about how to use your GitHub profile to 43 00:03:12,120 --> 00:03:15,439 help you land the job. And you know, those those skills are so 44 00:03:15,479 --> 00:03:19,759 important. I mean, basically, I think that you you need to convince 45 00:03:19,919 --> 00:03:23,639 a hiring manager that you're probably a good candidate before they talk to you these 46 00:03:23,719 --> 00:03:29,439 days, because there's so many applicants out there, so many people looking for 47 00:03:29,520 --> 00:03:31,719 work, and so little time. I mean, I'm a hiring manager right 48 00:03:31,759 --> 00:03:36,120 now, I have. I managed a couple of teams, and I've been 49 00:03:36,120 --> 00:03:38,199 doing some interviews, not for DevOps rolls by the way, Sorry, don't 50 00:03:38,199 --> 00:03:45,080 call me for that, But I have very limited time. Every every manager 51 00:03:45,120 --> 00:03:46,719 does. But when it comes to hiring, you know, when there's a 52 00:03:46,759 --> 00:03:52,159 thousand candidates for two positions, you have to pick the candidates that look the 53 00:03:52,159 --> 00:03:53,479 most promising. You don't want to talk to everybody, even though that might 54 00:03:53,520 --> 00:03:58,240 not be fair because there's great candidates who don't have great cvs or don't have 55 00:03:58,280 --> 00:04:01,080 big get hub profiles. But man, realistically, they they're going to look 56 00:04:01,120 --> 00:04:05,919 for somebody who looks promising before even the screening call in many cases, So 57 00:04:08,240 --> 00:04:11,000 you want to look promising. So yeah, I guess that's what when you 58 00:04:11,039 --> 00:04:14,039 talk about how do you look promising from the beginning, Yeah, we're talking 59 00:04:14,080 --> 00:04:17,800 before we clicked on the record button. Like whenever I first got into tech, 60 00:04:18,480 --> 00:04:24,399 you would break out the old newspaper and look for job ads, and 61 00:04:24,439 --> 00:04:28,519 then whenever you saw one that you thought would work for you, you would 62 00:04:28,519 --> 00:04:31,600 print out your resume and put it in the mail and physically mail it to 63 00:04:31,680 --> 00:04:35,160 the place and to stand out, then you would go and buy this really 64 00:04:35,199 --> 00:04:40,519 expensive super thick paper. So when they had a pile of resume sitting on 65 00:04:40,560 --> 00:04:45,920 their desk that this one that was on this really thick paper would hopefully stand 66 00:04:45,959 --> 00:04:49,160 out. Yeah, so do you think that would work these days? You 67 00:04:49,199 --> 00:04:54,920 know, it might not be as effective these days. Like the big question 68 00:04:55,120 --> 00:04:58,959 is when is this physical piece of mail going to actually get to the hiring 69 00:04:59,040 --> 00:05:03,040 manager? Most likely serious, Yeah, like six months after they filled the 70 00:05:03,160 --> 00:05:08,079 role. I hope somebody tries this as an experiment and lets us know how 71 00:05:08,079 --> 00:05:10,720 it goes, because I would. I would be fascinated to hear if there's 72 00:05:10,720 --> 00:05:14,439 a physical CV on any kind of paper, does it even get noticed these 73 00:05:14,519 --> 00:05:17,759 days? I've heard of people putting their resume. One story I heard that 74 00:05:17,839 --> 00:05:23,720 really stands out. Someone put their resume with like a five dollars Starbucks gift 75 00:05:23,759 --> 00:05:29,920 card and then fedexit to directly to the hiring manager. So then if you 76 00:05:29,920 --> 00:05:33,240 get a FedEx envelope the front desk or whoever's collecting the mails and say, 77 00:05:33,279 --> 00:05:38,680 oh, this must be important opened it up in his cover letter said hey, 78 00:05:38,720 --> 00:05:41,560 here's five bucks if you want to meet me for coffee and talk about 79 00:05:41,600 --> 00:05:46,040 my qualifications for this job. I thought that was really clever. That's clever. 80 00:05:46,199 --> 00:05:49,120 I wonder if it might borderline on a bribe, but it's it's certainly 81 00:05:49,120 --> 00:05:54,000 a clever approach. Yeah, for sure, having been in that hiring position 82 00:05:54,120 --> 00:05:59,519 in the past, I would probably meet with that individual and then return the 83 00:05:59,519 --> 00:06:03,879 gift card to them at that point so that there's no no like possible and 84 00:06:03,959 --> 00:06:09,920 misterpretation or anything right, good call. So I think, aside from trying 85 00:06:09,959 --> 00:06:15,639 to FedEx overnight your your CV with a gift cards or another gimmicks, when 86 00:06:15,639 --> 00:06:18,040 I'm looking for candidates, the things I'm looking for, of course, it 87 00:06:18,040 --> 00:06:21,959 depends on the role on the seniority level, but I'm looking for indication that 88 00:06:23,079 --> 00:06:28,279 this candidate has an initiative and they're capable of learning new things. Those are 89 00:06:28,279 --> 00:06:30,759 the two most important things for me, I think in a new candidate, 90 00:06:30,040 --> 00:06:33,839 except at really senior levels, where I don't care if they learn new things 91 00:06:33,839 --> 00:06:39,040 because they already know everything I need them to know. You know, if 92 00:06:39,040 --> 00:06:42,160 I'm looking for an ABS guru who can just come in and clean up our 93 00:06:42,199 --> 00:06:45,319 mess because we made it. We made a crap ton of mistakes on AWS, 94 00:06:45,399 --> 00:06:47,759 I don't really care that they're always trying to learn new things. I 95 00:06:47,800 --> 00:06:51,240 just want an expert to come in and clean up my mess. But usually 96 00:06:51,480 --> 00:06:55,839 I'm looking for I'm looking for potential, right, I'm looking for to hire 97 00:06:55,879 --> 00:07:00,519 somebody who I see has made an effort in the past, and that therefore 98 00:07:00,519 --> 00:07:02,399 hopefully assume that they continue to make an effort to learn new things, try 99 00:07:02,480 --> 00:07:08,120 new new approaches. They're always learning, because I believe that engineering is always 100 00:07:08,120 --> 00:07:11,600 about learning to solve new problems. I look at the code I wrote a 101 00:07:11,600 --> 00:07:14,199 month ago, six months ago, and I think, what was I thinking. 102 00:07:15,680 --> 00:07:19,720 I'm looking for sciences developers and engineers who have a similar mindset that they're 103 00:07:19,759 --> 00:07:23,879 always expending. So that's why I like to see. I mean, what 104 00:07:23,920 --> 00:07:26,560 are the first things I look for Whether I get a CV or a Lincoln 105 00:07:26,600 --> 00:07:30,040 profile, I look for GitHub or get lab. I don't care. It's 106 00:07:30,079 --> 00:07:30,839 not the brand, it's the point. I want to see what kind of 107 00:07:30,839 --> 00:07:33,800 code you've written in the past, and I can often tell. In fact, 108 00:07:33,920 --> 00:07:36,480 I did a couple of interviews of this last week where I looked at 109 00:07:36,480 --> 00:07:40,759 the gi hub profile and I wasn't impressed. I did the interview in a 110 00:07:40,800 --> 00:07:44,560 way and I wasn't impressed, you know, like the code was it is 111 00:07:44,600 --> 00:07:46,959 some toy projects, which is fine, but like it just didn't. Well, 112 00:07:47,439 --> 00:07:49,519 just just to be clear, one of the things that I look for 113 00:07:49,600 --> 00:07:55,480 is unit tests or tests of any kind, and some of these code bases 114 00:07:55,519 --> 00:07:58,720 didn't have that, which tells me that this person, you know, maybe 115 00:07:58,720 --> 00:08:01,519 it's a hobby project, they didn't think it was important. And that's why 116 00:08:01,560 --> 00:08:03,759 I still have the interview. I want to talk and learn learn that stuff. 117 00:08:03,759 --> 00:08:07,000 But you know, if you don't have the discipline to write tests, 118 00:08:07,040 --> 00:08:11,160 do you have the discipline to do other things correctly? And not everybody's going 119 00:08:11,160 --> 00:08:13,279 to agree with me on the test issue, but that's one area that's easy 120 00:08:13,319 --> 00:08:18,519 to look for in a GitHub repository unlike some others. So that that's only 121 00:08:18,600 --> 00:08:20,040 one example. I don't want anybody to hung up on the test thing. 122 00:08:20,240 --> 00:08:24,040 That's just one example of things I look for. Yeah, I think along 123 00:08:24,079 --> 00:08:28,399 those lines. The other things to look for besides tests are documentation on how 124 00:08:28,439 --> 00:08:31,799 to set up and run this, like is there a make file? Is 125 00:08:31,840 --> 00:08:37,200 the read me very clear about how to use it? And then yeah, 126 00:08:37,240 --> 00:08:41,960 and you know some type of c CD if it's a product that's applicable to 127 00:08:43,000 --> 00:08:46,159 that, did you take the time to use GitHub actions or certain CI or 128 00:08:46,200 --> 00:08:50,759 something so that you're not doing that manually, even if it is a personal 129 00:08:50,919 --> 00:08:56,000 project, which I think is more one of the ways that a personal website 130 00:08:56,360 --> 00:09:01,320 can can really work out for you. There. You know, have a 131 00:09:01,320 --> 00:09:05,960 website that's hosted on S three or cloud floor pages or whatever, but integrate 132 00:09:05,960 --> 00:09:13,480 it with CICD and then pull pull some data from a back end database. 133 00:09:13,519 --> 00:09:20,200 So stand up a little API in AWS and so now your website demonstrates what 134 00:09:20,320 --> 00:09:24,759 your capabilities are, and then that code'll losing GitHub that can be seen. 135 00:09:24,159 --> 00:09:28,960 Yes, definitely mean, especially if you're looking for a DevOps type of role, 136 00:09:28,320 --> 00:09:31,799 take the time to build a project, even if it's just an MVC 137 00:09:31,960 --> 00:09:35,399 to do type thing, and it could be a completely throw a right project 138 00:09:35,399 --> 00:09:39,039 if you have nothing else, but take the time to set up CICD, 139 00:09:39,200 --> 00:09:41,639 deploy it somewhere just to show, just to prove that you can. That's 140 00:09:41,639 --> 00:09:45,519 worth a lot. If it's a personal website, that's even better. I 141 00:09:45,559 --> 00:09:48,240 mean, I have a CD pipeline for my personal website which is built with 142 00:09:48,559 --> 00:09:52,320 Hugo set Excite gen Writer, so there's no database, but I still have 143 00:09:52,399 --> 00:09:56,159 CICD and it deploys to so it's not public. But I could make a 144 00:09:56,159 --> 00:10:00,320 public. It's nothing on my website. I'm hiding it's a website for goodn't 145 00:10:00,360 --> 00:10:05,639 think so. Yeah, if you want to, especially if you have a 146 00:10:05,639 --> 00:10:07,600 blog, or even if you don't, we'll probably talk about that in a 147 00:10:07,639 --> 00:10:11,279 minute, create one. But if you a great way to demonstrate that you 148 00:10:11,320 --> 00:10:15,159 know how to do CICD is to put your blog in CICD. If you're 149 00:10:15,279 --> 00:10:18,039 using WordPress, maybe maybe not, but put your blog. If you don't 150 00:10:18,080 --> 00:10:20,120 have, put it on. Use Jackal, or use Hugo, or use 151 00:10:20,159 --> 00:10:24,519 any of those statics site generators. Throw it up somewhere. You can get 152 00:10:24,559 --> 00:10:28,519 free web hosting, you can use Firebase for free, you can get all 153 00:10:28,519 --> 00:10:31,799 sorts of cheap or free web hosting. Throw it up somewhere and you'll have 154 00:10:31,840 --> 00:10:35,039 a CICD pipeline to prove that you know what you're doing. And I'll tell 155 00:10:35,039 --> 00:10:39,279 you what if I saw that on an applicant from an applicant for a DevOps 156 00:10:39,320 --> 00:10:41,480 roll, I would they would jump to the top of my list very quickly 157 00:10:41,639 --> 00:10:46,720 right on. I think one of the other things that helps you stand out 158 00:10:46,320 --> 00:10:52,240 are your other social media profiles, and for tech oriented roles, I tend 159 00:10:52,240 --> 00:10:58,519 to lean towards Twitter a bit more than other social media profiles because Twitter has 160 00:10:58,559 --> 00:11:01,519 such a strong tech unity, and I think it can really help you stand 161 00:11:01,559 --> 00:11:05,559 out if you're active in that community. And it doesn't mean that you have 162 00:11:05,679 --> 00:11:11,279 to have a big following or be posting viral tweets or something. It just 163 00:11:11,360 --> 00:11:16,679 means following some people in the same career space as you and engaging with them 164 00:11:16,720 --> 00:11:22,080 so that whenever a potential employer checks out your profile, they see that you're 165 00:11:22,120 --> 00:11:24,919 active in that community. And it can also give them an idea of your 166 00:11:26,120 --> 00:11:30,559 interest and capabilities by looking at the posts that you interact with in your your 167 00:11:30,600 --> 00:11:35,399 contributions to those posts. Yeah. I think it's also where choosing a username 168 00:11:35,639 --> 00:11:41,799 really is important. Right, So whenever you link to your profile, like 169 00:11:41,080 --> 00:11:46,000 we all know and love you as bomb water four twenty on Reddit, but 170 00:11:46,120 --> 00:11:48,399 you might want to pick a new user name before you paste it into your 171 00:11:48,440 --> 00:11:52,080 resume. Yeah, definitely. I mean it doesn't have to be it doesn't 172 00:11:52,120 --> 00:11:54,799 have to be it doesn't have to be a teching name. It just can't 173 00:11:54,799 --> 00:12:01,240 be unprofessional, right right, Yeah, nothing that's going to flag the content 174 00:12:01,360 --> 00:12:07,480 filters at the old corporate firewall. Yeah, were trying to look at your 175 00:12:07,519 --> 00:12:13,759 Twitter profile but it's blocked for some reason. Do you hire me? I'd 176 00:12:13,759 --> 00:12:18,360 be happy to take a look at that. What do you think about So 177 00:12:18,759 --> 00:12:20,240 I've heard of this happening, and I've never done myself, But what do 178 00:12:20,240 --> 00:12:26,399 you think about somebody who, either on the interview or in an application that 179 00:12:26,519 --> 00:12:30,519 do their cover letter, they point out technical problems that your company is facing. 180 00:12:30,759 --> 00:12:33,440 They like, I discovered these open ports on your firewall, or I 181 00:12:33,480 --> 00:12:37,879 discovered that you have a a some sort of cross site scripting vulnerability on your 182 00:12:37,919 --> 00:12:41,639 website, or there's some mescul injection going on here. Is that a good 183 00:12:41,679 --> 00:12:46,559 thing to do if you could discover that? Or does that? What impression 184 00:12:46,559 --> 00:12:50,320 does that leave? I think it shows initiative, but I would be very 185 00:12:50,360 --> 00:12:56,200 cautious about doing it because delivery is everything. Like, whenever you deliver that 186 00:12:56,320 --> 00:13:01,600 message, the recipient of that me message is going to take it as one 187 00:13:01,639 --> 00:13:09,159 of two ways like oh wow, this person's already actively engaged and looking for 188 00:13:09,639 --> 00:13:13,559 things to help out with, or what the hell are you doing probing our 189 00:13:13,639 --> 00:13:18,000 site? You know? And which of those decisions they come to comes down 190 00:13:18,039 --> 00:13:22,879 to delivery. I would probably not deliver that in any written form. I 191 00:13:22,879 --> 00:13:28,919 would deliver it in a video or face to face format so that I can 192 00:13:28,960 --> 00:13:33,279 control not only the language, but the tone of voice, the facial expressions, 193 00:13:33,279 --> 00:13:37,960 that eye contact, the body language, all that stuff to make absolutely 194 00:13:37,000 --> 00:13:41,480 certain that that message is not misinterpreted. Good advice, Yes, yeah, 195 00:13:41,519 --> 00:13:45,559 what about you? What are your thoughts on that? So it shows initiative, 196 00:13:45,759 --> 00:13:48,279 I think. So. I think as a hiring manager or as a 197 00:13:48,279 --> 00:13:52,799 company, I think it could be nice to ask candidates to do that, 198 00:13:52,960 --> 00:13:54,799 Like if you discover a vulnerability, let us know, we want to talk 199 00:13:54,840 --> 00:14:00,960 to you. And I remember years past someone having a comment in there in 200 00:14:01,000 --> 00:14:03,399 the source code of their HTML that says, if you're reading this, we 201 00:14:03,440 --> 00:14:05,720 want to hire you, or something like that, because it indicated that someone 202 00:14:05,879 --> 00:14:09,519 was, you know, hacking around a little bit. Those kinds of things 203 00:14:09,519 --> 00:14:13,120 are clever and cute. So if you, as a company are interested in 204 00:14:13,240 --> 00:14:16,039 attracting those sorts of people, I think that's cool. Or leave a port 205 00:14:16,080 --> 00:14:18,480 open on your firewall that when you connect to it, it sends you a 206 00:14:18,519 --> 00:14:20,960 message says we want to talk to you. Here's our hiring contact or something 207 00:14:22,000 --> 00:14:24,399 like that. Yeah, it's kind of cool to catch those people that are 208 00:14:24,399 --> 00:14:28,600 doing that. But unless the company is inviting that sort of thing, I 209 00:14:28,639 --> 00:14:31,960 would be cautious. And also for two reasons. Not only does it look 210 00:14:31,080 --> 00:14:35,720 a little bit fishy if you're probing our network, but it also can seem 211 00:14:35,720 --> 00:14:37,720 a little bit show off. Ye yeah, and that can and there's a 212 00:14:39,120 --> 00:14:41,639 there's a fine line, and I don't know where it is. There's a 213 00:14:41,639 --> 00:14:46,440 fine line between being proactive and showing off, And so I would just be 214 00:14:46,559 --> 00:14:48,840 very careful. It's about the delivery. I would I would wait till I 215 00:14:48,879 --> 00:14:54,159 have a rapport with somebody before I started pointing out the problems. Agreed. 216 00:14:54,320 --> 00:14:56,519 Yeah, So I think blogging is a is a great topic here because who 217 00:14:56,679 --> 00:15:00,279 touched on in a little bit. Do you have a blog will that you 218 00:15:00,320 --> 00:15:03,720 ever used to help you get hired? No? No, no, But 219 00:15:03,000 --> 00:15:09,399 I do have my YouTube channel hashtag Shameless self Promotion DevOps for Developers, which 220 00:15:09,480 --> 00:15:11,200 is it's sort of a video blog, you know, because it covers the 221 00:15:11,240 --> 00:15:15,919 same content that I would put in a blog. I just do videos on 222 00:15:15,960 --> 00:15:18,200 it instead. Yeah, well, I had I've had a blog for years 223 00:15:18,679 --> 00:15:26,679 and it's these days I write every day shameless self plug here as daily to 224 00:15:26,720 --> 00:15:31,679 sign up for my daily emails. But I've had a blog for years it 225 00:15:31,720 --> 00:15:35,720 was. It was usually ad hoc, just whenever I thought of something, 226 00:15:35,840 --> 00:15:37,600 or maybe notes to my future self, like, you know, I solved 227 00:15:37,600 --> 00:15:39,360 a problem and I don't want to forget how I solved it, so I 228 00:15:39,399 --> 00:15:43,039 write a little article about it. And that is invaluable as a job searcher. 229 00:15:43,120 --> 00:15:46,759 I mean, if there's one thing I look for after the get hub 230 00:15:46,840 --> 00:15:50,360 profile, I'm looking to see if you have a blog or other social media 231 00:15:50,399 --> 00:15:54,200 presence, as long as it's easy to find. And I don't just mean 232 00:15:54,320 --> 00:15:56,519 like the tweet a thousand times a week. I mean I want to I 233 00:15:56,559 --> 00:16:03,879 want evidence that you have written about your technical accomplishment because that tells me about 234 00:16:03,919 --> 00:16:07,440 who you are and your technical struggles too. And that's fine. You can 235 00:16:07,480 --> 00:16:11,679 write a blog post about always trying to do docer with this weird thing and 236 00:16:11,720 --> 00:16:14,600 it was so frustrating I couldn't figure it out. That's that's also valid. 237 00:16:14,720 --> 00:16:18,039 The point is write about the technical challenges you're facing and what you're doing about 238 00:16:18,080 --> 00:16:22,120 them. That says so much, and it doesn't have to be just technical, 239 00:16:22,240 --> 00:16:23,360 especially if you're interested in a managerial track. If you got to be 240 00:16:23,399 --> 00:16:27,679 a team leader or move into management. Right about your thoughts on management, 241 00:16:29,039 --> 00:16:32,200 right about a conflict you had with a colleague. Maybe change names if you 242 00:16:32,240 --> 00:16:37,120 have to for an anonymicy talk about the guy who mentored you in a great 243 00:16:37,159 --> 00:16:41,120 new way, or taught you something new and exciting, or something you taught 244 00:16:41,240 --> 00:16:44,960 new and exciting to someone else. Just write about your experiences that you know. 245 00:16:45,159 --> 00:16:49,159 Basically, if this is a way a blog or YouTube whatever, and 246 00:16:49,200 --> 00:16:53,320 to some extent, social media is a great way to extend your interview time 247 00:16:53,559 --> 00:16:57,200 without the interview, you can you know all those questions that your managers will 248 00:16:57,240 --> 00:17:00,159 ask, how did you solve a problem? How did you solve the conflict 249 00:17:00,159 --> 00:17:03,759 of the colleague? Answer those sorts of things in a blog and make it 250 00:17:03,799 --> 00:17:06,440 easy to find so that you know, I need to put the link to 251 00:17:06,480 --> 00:17:07,519 your blog at the top of your CV, right next to your get hub 252 00:17:07,519 --> 00:17:11,279 profile or your phone number, so it's easy to find. And those hiring 253 00:17:11,279 --> 00:17:14,440 managers when they see that stuff, they're not going to spend hours reading your 254 00:17:14,680 --> 00:17:17,319 blog. But if they just if they look at your blog and they see, 255 00:17:17,319 --> 00:17:19,160 oh, this guy writes about doctor and Kubernetes, and oh he has 256 00:17:19,200 --> 00:17:23,319 thoughts about management, that makes a big impression and I don't know. I 257 00:17:23,319 --> 00:17:26,759 mean I've had, as I've been in a candidate, I've had managers and 258 00:17:26,880 --> 00:17:33,200 hiring interviewers mentioned my blog many many times. Though, you know, sometimes 259 00:17:33,200 --> 00:17:34,960 it's small like oh, I saw you write a blog about blah blah blah, 260 00:17:36,079 --> 00:17:38,480 and half the time they're wrong, they've misremembered what it was at the 261 00:17:38,480 --> 00:17:45,480 point right. And sometimes it's more detail, like oh, that blog post 262 00:17:45,519 --> 00:17:48,759 about sessions that was really interesting. I never thought of that before or whatever. 263 00:17:48,839 --> 00:17:52,440 So just having a blog is invaluable as a job searcher. It will 264 00:17:52,480 --> 00:17:55,319 put you that in a get hub profile. Are the two things I can 265 00:17:55,359 --> 00:17:59,920 think of above anything else that will get attention. I mean, those are 266 00:18:00,000 --> 00:18:03,000 literally the two things I look for before I even skim through your employment history. 267 00:18:03,039 --> 00:18:07,880 I'm looking for a profile and a personal website, and then I go 268 00:18:07,920 --> 00:18:11,160 back and look at your employment history for sure. Yeah, agreed. I 269 00:18:11,200 --> 00:18:15,440 think one of the on your personal website, which I think is starting to 270 00:18:15,480 --> 00:18:18,920 stand out, is like one of the key things to do here. One 271 00:18:18,960 --> 00:18:22,400 other thing I think a category I rarely see on there, but I think 272 00:18:22,480 --> 00:18:27,039 is super important to have is a testimonials section. For multiple reasons. One, 273 00:18:27,160 --> 00:18:32,759 I think it's good for you to get into the habit of asking people 274 00:18:32,799 --> 00:18:37,559 that you've previously worked with for testimonials, you know, to find out like, 275 00:18:37,000 --> 00:18:41,880 what did you do that they liked? And it's funny because I've always 276 00:18:41,960 --> 00:18:45,599 said, if you know, there's like the party question. You know, 277 00:18:45,640 --> 00:18:48,640 if you could have a superpower, what would it be. Mine has always 278 00:18:48,680 --> 00:18:52,880 been to see myself through someone else's eyes, to see what how they see 279 00:18:52,920 --> 00:18:56,880 me, And testimonials are like a little brief snapshot, and how to do 280 00:18:56,920 --> 00:19:00,440 that. It'll help you refine what you're strong at that you may not have 281 00:19:00,480 --> 00:19:03,960 known that you were strong at. But then, for the purposes of this 282 00:19:04,319 --> 00:19:11,039 podcast, someone who is thinking about hiring you, they're going to get an 283 00:19:11,160 --> 00:19:15,839 unbiased person's opinion on what it's like to work with you, which may help 284 00:19:17,319 --> 00:19:21,160 put you in a more favorable light as they're building out their short list of 285 00:19:21,200 --> 00:19:25,160 candidates to call in. That's a great piece of advice. I would add 286 00:19:25,200 --> 00:19:30,519 to that when you ask for testimonials, try to ask specific questions. But 287 00:19:30,599 --> 00:19:32,279 basically, in other words, if I say, hey, will would you 288 00:19:32,279 --> 00:19:34,279 at a testimonial, You're probably going to write something, Oh yeah, I 289 00:19:34,279 --> 00:19:37,160 know. Jonathan from the Adventures and DevOps podcast he's a great guy. He's 290 00:19:37,200 --> 00:19:41,319 really funny, great guy, and there's nothing wrong with that. Yeah, 291 00:19:41,720 --> 00:19:45,079 there's nothing wrong with that, But it doesn't really tell anybody whether I know 292 00:19:45,119 --> 00:19:48,720 anything at all about DevOps or whatever I might be applying for. So I 293 00:19:48,720 --> 00:19:52,880 think it's important to ask ask direct questions, things like what would you think 294 00:19:52,880 --> 00:19:56,599 were the biggest strengths or what were my biggest strengths on this team? Or 295 00:19:56,599 --> 00:19:59,960 what were my biggest contributions to this project. If you ask things like that 296 00:20:00,079 --> 00:20:03,200 or specific, uh, You're going to get a better testimonial uh. And 297 00:20:03,240 --> 00:20:06,359 this goes. This is the same as like when you when you write a 298 00:20:06,359 --> 00:20:10,920 TV you want to talk about your accomplishments more than your responsibilities. Right, 299 00:20:11,039 --> 00:20:17,720 we did a good job or not responsible. Tell me that you managed the 300 00:20:17,759 --> 00:20:22,279 Kubernetes cluster for ten thousand nodes or whatever, and you had an uptime of 301 00:20:22,319 --> 00:20:26,759 blah blah blah, or you increased the uptime from eighty percent to ninety nine. 302 00:20:26,079 --> 00:20:29,640 You know, something like that. Tell me about an accomplishment something that 303 00:20:29,680 --> 00:20:32,880 you that you did, that you put moved the needle on. If you're 304 00:20:32,880 --> 00:20:36,720 going to ask your your testimonial givers, how did you move the needle and 305 00:20:37,000 --> 00:20:38,920 experiment with different ways to ask that you know it doesn't and if it's somebody 306 00:20:38,960 --> 00:20:41,559 you're close to, hopefully it is you can. You can ask several different 307 00:20:41,559 --> 00:20:45,160 ways to get a powerful testimonial. It's not just he's a nice guy. 308 00:20:45,200 --> 00:20:48,079 I'd love to work with him again, that's fine. At least at least 309 00:20:48,079 --> 00:20:52,519 we know you're not not a complete jerk. But that's a pretty low bar 310 00:20:52,640 --> 00:20:56,480 to when you're trying to stand out above everybody else in an interview. For 311 00:20:56,519 --> 00:21:03,759 sure. Yeah, and I'll just admit to this right here. I've asked 312 00:21:03,759 --> 00:21:07,480 people for testimonials, gotten it back, rewritten it, sent it back over 313 00:21:07,519 --> 00:21:10,480 to them, and said, hey, can I change it to this? 314 00:21:11,119 --> 00:21:15,400 And then, you know, get their approval before I put before I attribute 315 00:21:15,400 --> 00:21:21,000 it to them. But because writing testimonials, testimonials is actually pretty hard, 316 00:21:21,200 --> 00:21:26,000 So it's okay to offer feedback on the testimonial that you like. As you 317 00:21:26,039 --> 00:21:27,240 said, make sure you get the permission first. Yeah, for sure, 318 00:21:27,319 --> 00:21:33,000 don't just rewrite it because you don't like what they said. Yeah, and 319 00:21:33,119 --> 00:21:38,480 don't do like this one company I worked for that will remain nameless and make 320 00:21:38,559 --> 00:21:45,640 up testimonials and then just attribute them to John or Bill, you know, 321 00:21:45,720 --> 00:21:52,200 first name only attributions, right, what else? So let's talk about I 322 00:21:52,200 --> 00:21:56,400 want to cover one more thing on the resume. Whenever you do a resume, 323 00:21:56,000 --> 00:22:00,599 or fill out a resume, or fill out the job application, whatever, 324 00:22:00,680 --> 00:22:04,519 the process of raising your hand and saying I'm interested is one of the 325 00:22:04,519 --> 00:22:10,680 things I think that really helps is to open up their job description side by 326 00:22:10,799 --> 00:22:17,359 side with the application or your resume and rephrase a lot of the statements from 327 00:22:17,519 --> 00:22:22,599 their ideal candidate and their roles and responsibility section of the job description. Rephrase 328 00:22:22,720 --> 00:22:27,960 those into things I've done in your resume. You know, obviously don't lie, 329 00:22:29,680 --> 00:22:33,359 but if they say, hey, we're looking for somebody with experience creating 330 00:22:33,400 --> 00:22:37,920 helm charts for Kubernetes in your resume, you should have a bullet point that 331 00:22:37,960 --> 00:22:44,839 says I created helm charts for Kubernetes in this particular project. And you just 332 00:22:44,880 --> 00:22:51,319 want to create like a Ven diagram where there's this huge overlapping middle section of 333 00:22:51,480 --> 00:22:55,960 things that they're looking for and things that you've demonstrated you've done on your resume. 334 00:22:56,480 --> 00:23:00,680 You know, I heard recently of somebody copying and pasting the job description 335 00:23:00,839 --> 00:23:08,799 in a one point white font so then it would pass you know, all 336 00:23:08,799 --> 00:23:14,359 their all the keyword filters. It would definitely hit everyone, right. I 337 00:23:14,359 --> 00:23:17,839 don't recommend this approach, yeah, because uh, you know, if somebody 338 00:23:17,880 --> 00:23:21,559 sees you're doing that, you're probably you're probably in the on the burn pile 339 00:23:21,599 --> 00:23:26,680 immediately for sure. Yeah, unless it's a job for like SEO management, 340 00:23:26,720 --> 00:23:33,880 then the might you might be in there. Yeah. So we talked about 341 00:23:33,200 --> 00:23:38,279 having a public profile, listing your projects on your resume, adding those to 342 00:23:38,799 --> 00:23:42,480 your blog. For a lot of people getting started, started out though, 343 00:23:42,599 --> 00:23:47,640 just starting their DevOps career, this is going to be a challenging time to 344 00:23:47,960 --> 00:23:52,519 get started for you know, probably the next few years at a minimum. 345 00:23:52,599 --> 00:23:56,200 So how do they go? How do they break that chicken and egg cycle. 346 00:23:56,359 --> 00:24:00,480 I need experience in order to get a job. I need job in 347 00:24:00,559 --> 00:24:06,359 order to get experience. Well, the simple answer to speak isn't the simple 348 00:24:06,400 --> 00:24:08,200 answer to do. But I think I think what it comes down to is 349 00:24:08,240 --> 00:24:11,839 getting the experience outside of a paid job, if at all possible. Yeah, 350 00:24:11,880 --> 00:24:15,000 I mean, maybe you're waiting tables at Denny's for a few years like 351 00:24:15,039 --> 00:24:19,200 I did, but in the evenings, go set up a Kubernetes pluster on 352 00:24:19,200 --> 00:24:23,000 your Raspberry Pie or whatever it is. And you know that's how I got 353 00:24:23,039 --> 00:24:26,200 my first job. I mean I was. I was a teen creer and 354 00:24:26,200 --> 00:24:30,000 a hacker forever, and I was I was running my own dial up modem 355 00:24:30,039 --> 00:24:33,920 ISP from my parents' house high school. But you know that meant that I 356 00:24:33,960 --> 00:24:37,440 had experience when I was ready for a job. You know who else in 357 00:24:37,559 --> 00:24:41,160 nineteen ninety eight had been running a dial up ISP in the bedroom, you 358 00:24:41,200 --> 00:24:45,720 know, on that stack of cvs, I was the only one I could 359 00:24:45,759 --> 00:24:48,000 guarantee that. So if those skills were at all in line with what they 360 00:24:48,000 --> 00:24:51,880 wanted, I jumped right to the top of that list. So whatever your 361 00:24:51,960 --> 00:24:56,160 your hobbies are, if it's Kubernetes on a Raspberry Pie or bitcoin mining or 362 00:24:56,200 --> 00:25:00,000 whatever, find a way to do that stuff, build your three M contracts 363 00:25:00,079 --> 00:25:02,880 or whatever it is in your spare time. I no, not everybody has 364 00:25:02,920 --> 00:25:04,720 spare time. That's not fair, but that's life. But if you do 365 00:25:04,799 --> 00:25:07,720 have spare time, find a way to do that. Even if it's just 366 00:25:07,720 --> 00:25:11,440 an hour a day, or even hour a week, that's better than that's 367 00:25:11,680 --> 00:25:14,480 an hour week more than ninety percent of the people out there, So it 368 00:25:14,480 --> 00:25:17,680 doesn't take a lot to be better than average, because average is a pretty 369 00:25:17,680 --> 00:25:19,640 low bar in most cases. Yeah, yeah, for sure. I think 370 00:25:19,680 --> 00:25:25,160 the key there is just always moving forward, even if it's only five minutes 371 00:25:25,200 --> 00:25:30,400 at a time. One of the things I recommend for people to do is 372 00:25:30,559 --> 00:25:37,319 go to Pakathon's meetups, hang out in places where other developers are. So 373 00:25:37,359 --> 00:25:42,200 if you're interested in DevOps, you're kind of in a supporting role for developers. 374 00:25:42,240 --> 00:25:47,200 So go where the developers are and you're going to find a bunch of 375 00:25:47,240 --> 00:25:52,079 developers who are at the same spot in their career that you are in your 376 00:25:52,200 --> 00:25:56,640 career. So they're trying to build their portfolio app and have no idea how 377 00:25:56,680 --> 00:26:02,079 to get this thing live and deployed. So partner up with them, say, 378 00:26:02,119 --> 00:26:04,000 hey, you write the code to build your app, I'll do the 379 00:26:04,039 --> 00:26:08,240 CICD for it and then put it in a public repo, and you both 380 00:26:08,480 --> 00:26:14,240 get to work together to build some portfolio work that you can show off and 381 00:26:14,319 --> 00:26:18,920 demonstrate. And one of the hidden benefits of that is you're actually doing the 382 00:26:18,920 --> 00:26:22,920 thing that you would be doing if you had a DevOps job, you know, 383 00:26:22,039 --> 00:26:26,039 working with developers, understanding what they're trying to do, helping them get 384 00:26:26,079 --> 00:26:32,160 their code to production faster. You're one hundred percent doing the job, and 385 00:26:32,200 --> 00:26:37,119 then you're also just working on building your network and building friendships. And you 386 00:26:37,160 --> 00:26:40,680 know, as as all of you advanced through your career, you're going to 387 00:26:40,759 --> 00:26:45,079 remember those days and someday, you know, they may be working at a 388 00:26:45,079 --> 00:26:49,039 Fortune one hundred company and need a DevOps person. Remember your name from back 389 00:26:49,039 --> 00:26:53,440 in the day. Yeah, you reminded me of a concept that I thought 390 00:26:53,440 --> 00:26:56,839 was pretty groundbreaking when I first learned it a year ago or so. When 391 00:26:56,880 --> 00:27:00,880 it comes to learning, and this is a complicate the thing on anywhere in 392 00:27:00,960 --> 00:27:03,599 tech, but especially in DevOps or even software development, where we just have 393 00:27:03,640 --> 00:27:08,200 to learn so many things. If you look at ten companies looking for DevOps 394 00:27:08,319 --> 00:27:12,519 related roles, they probably have ten different technology stacks. Some of them are 395 00:27:12,640 --> 00:27:15,559 using Java, some are on Rubies, some are PHP, some are you 396 00:27:15,599 --> 00:27:18,440 know whatever, some are on albs. I'm on Google, some mazures, 397 00:27:18,480 --> 00:27:22,680 some are using Kubernetes them aren't you. It's just it's all over the board, 398 00:27:22,920 --> 00:27:26,559 and there's no way you can learn all of the key technologies for all 399 00:27:26,599 --> 00:27:29,640 of those ten companies, let alone the hundred you might be looking at. 400 00:27:29,799 --> 00:27:32,640 So the concept, it's one I got from a book. I'll make it 401 00:27:32,680 --> 00:27:34,880 my pick later on. I'll mention the book then. But the concept is 402 00:27:34,880 --> 00:27:38,279 one called knowledge options, so you know, think of it like stock options. 403 00:27:38,440 --> 00:27:44,240 A stock option is the right to buy stock at a certain price in 404 00:27:44,240 --> 00:27:45,960 the future if you want to, but it's not an obligation to do it 405 00:27:47,039 --> 00:27:51,839 right. So normally, I think the way most people get overwhelmed with so 406 00:27:51,920 --> 00:27:53,079 much to learn is they're thinking, how much do I have to learn right 407 00:27:53,119 --> 00:27:59,680 now? Knowledge options turns that around and it basically you learn just enough about 408 00:27:59,720 --> 00:28:03,400 each technology that you can't do it yet, but you know what's required to 409 00:28:03,480 --> 00:28:07,640 learn enough. So let's say that the topic is Kubernetes. You've heard the 410 00:28:07,680 --> 00:28:11,160 buzzword a thousand times. You don't even know what kubernettes really is yet, 411 00:28:11,240 --> 00:28:15,640 So spend an hour or an afternoon reading up on kubernetes. Get the basic 412 00:28:15,720 --> 00:28:18,680 idea down. So oh, I realized, I understand how kubernetes what it 413 00:28:18,799 --> 00:28:23,799 is now. It manages Docker containers basically, and it manages network meshes blah 414 00:28:23,799 --> 00:28:26,640 blah blah. You know, you still don't know how to use it, 415 00:28:26,720 --> 00:28:29,759 but you have a concept of what it is. And then to a more 416 00:28:29,839 --> 00:28:33,759 or less extent, figure out how long would it take me to learn enough 417 00:28:33,759 --> 00:28:37,160 to be useful with Kubernetes, and maybe that number is three months or three 418 00:28:37,200 --> 00:28:41,480 weeks or or whatever, and then just make a note, a mental note, 419 00:28:41,480 --> 00:28:44,200 maybe a physical note. All right, Kubernetes, I know what it 420 00:28:44,279 --> 00:28:45,319 is, and it's going to take me three months to learn enough. All 421 00:28:45,400 --> 00:28:48,880 right, that's all I need to know for right now. That's your knowledge 422 00:28:48,920 --> 00:28:52,720 option. Now you have the option when Kubernetes becomes required, you know what 423 00:28:52,200 --> 00:28:55,880 it is. You can talk intelligently about it, at least enough for an 424 00:28:55,880 --> 00:28:59,359 interview or at a meetup, and you can now exercise that option when you 425 00:28:59,400 --> 00:29:02,759 want to without wasting the three months on something you may not actually need. 426 00:29:02,839 --> 00:29:04,759 And they do the same thing for AWS, and do the same thing for 427 00:29:04,799 --> 00:29:07,079 Google Cloud, and do the same thing for Terraform and so on and so 428 00:29:07,119 --> 00:29:11,440 forth. And then you have a collection of these twenty five different technologies. 429 00:29:11,480 --> 00:29:14,359 You know a little bit about each one, not enough to use any of 430 00:29:14,400 --> 00:29:18,200 them in your job, but enough to know what's required to go to that 431 00:29:18,240 --> 00:29:21,880 next step. So that's a knowledge option. It's something really powerful, especially 432 00:29:22,799 --> 00:29:25,720 when you don't have the knowledge yet. That's the whole point. So that's 433 00:29:25,799 --> 00:29:29,000 really useful early in your career. It's really useful late in your career too, 434 00:29:32,000 --> 00:29:34,359 especially in this career where this new technology is popping up faster than it 435 00:29:34,359 --> 00:29:37,960 could possibly learn them all. But that that's a really powerful concept. I 436 00:29:37,279 --> 00:29:40,519 just found it kind of eye opening when I learned about that concept. I'll 437 00:29:40,519 --> 00:29:42,160 share the title of the book later where that came from. Yeah, that's 438 00:29:42,160 --> 00:29:45,799 super cool. It reminds me. I've always thought there was this correlation. 439 00:29:47,119 --> 00:29:52,440 You know, the Japanese had the conbine process or just in time manufacturing, 440 00:29:52,519 --> 00:29:59,359 where building automobiles, like the tires showed up literally minutes before the worker needed 441 00:29:59,359 --> 00:30:03,599 the tires for the car and the assembly line. I've always thought that in 442 00:30:03,680 --> 00:30:10,519 technology we're moving towards this just in time learning model where you can't possibly know 443 00:30:10,680 --> 00:30:14,720 everything that you're going to need to know for the next five years. So 444 00:30:14,759 --> 00:30:18,359 instead of stressing over that, just sort of what you just described, be 445 00:30:18,440 --> 00:30:22,680 familiar with the topic, and then when you have to implement it, learn 446 00:30:22,720 --> 00:30:26,440 it just in time to implement it. Yeah, And the truth is that's 447 00:30:26,440 --> 00:30:30,240 good enough for most things. There aren't we occasionally we need a true in 448 00:30:30,279 --> 00:30:33,279 depth Cubernetes expert, but we don't most of the time. Most of the 449 00:30:33,279 --> 00:30:36,160 time, would you sed, somebody's a base level knowledge, something they learned 450 00:30:36,200 --> 00:30:38,000 in three months, it's usually enough to get the job done. So I 451 00:30:38,039 --> 00:30:41,279 wrote about this on my blog. I'll have a link to that also, 452 00:30:41,559 --> 00:30:44,880 and the show notes, and then yeah, the book title I'll share later 453 00:30:44,920 --> 00:30:48,720 on. Right on. So we covered resumes, personal projects, GitHub profile, 454 00:30:49,240 --> 00:30:53,000 social media proof maybe stack overflow. It's kind of social media, but 455 00:30:53,200 --> 00:30:56,599 it is. Yeah, I'll mention that. So one place I found to 456 00:30:56,680 --> 00:31:00,359 be useful sometimes when looking for jobs, actually not even looking, but I've 457 00:31:00,400 --> 00:31:03,599 had a few jobs come to me through stack overflow. I don't know if 458 00:31:03,640 --> 00:31:07,400 this is a this isn't really a life hack because it's kind of one of 459 00:31:07,400 --> 00:31:10,839 those things that requires investment. I mean, I've been on stack overflow for 460 00:31:10,880 --> 00:31:14,079 eleven years and I have something like sixty thousand reputation I think. But I've 461 00:31:14,079 --> 00:31:15,960 been I've been really active lately in the last few years on the go tag, 462 00:31:17,079 --> 00:31:18,720 so that I've had a couple of people reach out to me. They 463 00:31:18,720 --> 00:31:22,200 found an answer where I'd answer one of the questions on the go tag. 464 00:31:22,759 --> 00:31:26,440 They and so you have to put your contact details in your profile there, 465 00:31:26,519 --> 00:31:29,319 but I linked to my website. They found me to that, and actually 466 00:31:29,319 --> 00:31:30,720 that's how I got my current job was through stack overflow, and I've had 467 00:31:30,720 --> 00:31:34,519 a couple other short term contract jobs that way. So if you're a stack 468 00:31:34,519 --> 00:31:38,319 overflow user, especially when who answers questions, I think that's a great way 469 00:31:38,440 --> 00:31:41,920 to get a little bit bit of publicity. Make sure you put a nice 470 00:31:42,000 --> 00:31:47,599 pick a nice name. This professional. We don't want bog Water forty three 471 00:31:47,640 --> 00:31:52,480 anymore. Put a nice professional name on there, put a nice little profile, 472 00:31:52,480 --> 00:31:56,559 put your GitHub and your and your website links in your stack overfill profile, 473 00:31:56,799 --> 00:32:00,720 and say I'm looking for work or I'm available for work if you're interested, 474 00:32:00,880 --> 00:32:04,960 and answer some provide some high quality answers on our topic you're familiar with, 475 00:32:05,000 --> 00:32:08,279 whatever that is, whether it's Kubernetes or JavaScript or whatever. Asking questions 476 00:32:08,319 --> 00:32:10,799 is great too, but the way to get the jobs, in my experience 477 00:32:10,839 --> 00:32:14,960 is answering questions on a topic you're familiar with. Yeah, I think I 478 00:32:15,000 --> 00:32:20,640 think one thing worth pointing out on that is that is a long play game. 479 00:32:20,720 --> 00:32:22,400 You know, it's going to take take a while to build up your 480 00:32:22,519 --> 00:32:27,839 reputation, but it's it's worth doing same thing for well, same thing for 481 00:32:27,880 --> 00:32:30,720 a lot of the stuff we've talked about in this entire episode. None of 482 00:32:30,759 --> 00:32:35,960 it is a magic silver bullet to land a job in the next twenty four 483 00:32:36,000 --> 00:32:39,559 hours. And I think for the next few years the job process, regardless 484 00:32:39,559 --> 00:32:44,000 of what your experience has been up to this point, I think you can 485 00:32:44,119 --> 00:32:49,039 anticipate that finding a job is going to take longer for the next few years 486 00:32:49,079 --> 00:32:53,920 at a minimum. So don't get discouraged, stay persistent, and set up 487 00:32:54,119 --> 00:32:59,759 some type of schedule, some type of reminder or accountability system where you are 488 00:33:00,400 --> 00:33:04,519 continuously moving all of these things forward. You know, you're curating your stack 489 00:33:04,599 --> 00:33:09,599 overflow profile, you're curating your blog content, you're curating your social media profiles, 490 00:33:09,680 --> 00:33:14,359 all of that stuff, just so that they're always moving forward and then 491 00:33:14,400 --> 00:33:17,559 that that long tail traffic does pay off over time. Yeah, and a 492 00:33:17,559 --> 00:33:21,799 couple points on that. Don't watch your web statistics. Do not look at 493 00:33:21,839 --> 00:33:29,680 googling. Sure, the first time I had my blog helped me land a 494 00:33:29,759 --> 00:33:32,759 job. I had fifty visitors a month or something. The thing is, 495 00:33:32,839 --> 00:33:37,559 it's not about volume, and it's not even about people finding you through search 496 00:33:37,559 --> 00:33:40,319 engines. It's about somebody who saw your CV and they followed the link to 497 00:33:40,359 --> 00:33:44,039 your blog and they were impressed. That's all it is. So you're going 498 00:33:44,079 --> 00:33:46,400 to get three visits a month that way, but they're powerful visits. So 499 00:33:46,480 --> 00:33:51,359 do not look at or get depressed over your stats. Those stats are absolutely 500 00:33:51,400 --> 00:33:54,480 meaningless for this purpose. The other thing I want to talk about is soft 501 00:33:54,480 --> 00:33:58,960 skills. That's something we can all work to improve. But it's a great 502 00:33:59,039 --> 00:34:01,880 thing that to work on when you're when you're looking for work, network with 503 00:34:01,920 --> 00:34:07,599 people at meetups, work on help, work on helping people learn, and 504 00:34:07,680 --> 00:34:09,840 just work on improving your soft skills. Those are those are always in demand, 505 00:34:10,199 --> 00:34:13,400 and they're going to be more in demand. I mean when it's a 506 00:34:13,559 --> 00:34:15,800 when it's a candidate's market, you can afford to be a little bit pickier 507 00:34:16,079 --> 00:34:20,639 or less refined to the soft skills because they need your talent so bad. 508 00:34:21,400 --> 00:34:23,840 When there's a thousand applicants out there, they're gonna pick the guy who talks 509 00:34:23,960 --> 00:34:28,920 nice, They're gonna pick the girl who takes the time to explain things sweetly. 510 00:34:29,039 --> 00:34:31,159 They're gonna there. Those soft skills are going to really be important. 511 00:34:31,199 --> 00:34:35,800 So take the time. If you don't already have them take the time to 512 00:34:35,840 --> 00:34:38,719 develop your soft skills. You can't be the loner nerd in the office corner 513 00:34:38,719 --> 00:34:44,519 anymore. You have to be the nice guy for sure. Yeah, there's 514 00:34:44,679 --> 00:34:47,000 there's just a ton of truth to that, you know. Having the ability 515 00:34:47,039 --> 00:34:54,800 to communicate your ideas, to advocate for something whenever it's not like the current 516 00:34:54,880 --> 00:35:00,679 direction of the conversation. To be able to advocate and steer it a conversation 517 00:35:00,079 --> 00:35:06,280 and be a team player is huge, whether it's weather wearing, good times 518 00:35:06,480 --> 00:35:10,320 or bad times. It's a skill that's gonna serve you well over the long 519 00:35:10,400 --> 00:35:15,400 term. There's a quote from Ozzy Osbourne of all people that I heard, 520 00:35:17,559 --> 00:35:22,480 no, no, as soon as actually a legitimate quote. He said, 521 00:35:21,960 --> 00:35:24,800 be nice to the people you meet on your way up the ladder, because 522 00:35:24,840 --> 00:35:29,800 you're gonna meet them again on your way back down. And I was like, 523 00:35:29,880 --> 00:35:34,960 wow, dude, that is deep nice. Yeah. So there you 524 00:35:35,000 --> 00:35:37,039 go. If you've got nothing else in this episode, you've got a quote 525 00:35:37,079 --> 00:35:42,320 from Ozzy Osbourne that you can work into conversation while you're building those social skills. 526 00:35:44,599 --> 00:35:46,920 Awesome, all right, anything else to add I think we've been around 527 00:35:46,960 --> 00:35:52,199 the track. Yeah right, yeah, grammarly as well, yeah, that's 528 00:35:52,239 --> 00:35:55,079 a good one, especially if you're not a native speaker. Yeah, of 529 00:35:55,119 --> 00:35:59,280 whatever language. I'm assuming English, but you could be implying another languages. 530 00:35:59,320 --> 00:36:02,199 So yeah, use a grammar check and spell check actually, especially if you 531 00:36:02,280 --> 00:36:07,360 are a native speaker of English, because a lot of us have assumptions that 532 00:36:07,760 --> 00:36:12,159 when you use a tool like grammarly you're like, oh, I didn't know 533 00:36:12,239 --> 00:36:15,199 that. Yeah, put the most important part of your TV in the top 534 00:36:15,239 --> 00:36:17,960 half of the first page. That's so much more important than is it one 535 00:36:19,000 --> 00:36:22,679 page or two pages of three pages. Just assume that the first half of 536 00:36:22,719 --> 00:36:24,400 the first page is what will be skimmed and put the important stuff there. 537 00:36:24,559 --> 00:36:27,719 Yeah. Yeah, that's a really good point, right. Cool. We 538 00:36:27,760 --> 00:36:30,880 could talk about cvs for a while, but I think they're far less important 539 00:36:30,880 --> 00:36:32,679 than everything else were discussed at this point. So yeah, at this point, 540 00:36:32,679 --> 00:36:37,920 I think the it's just a launching point to get It's a place to 541 00:36:37,960 --> 00:36:40,280 hold the links to get to the meaningful stuff exactly. So make sure those 542 00:36:40,320 --> 00:36:44,360 links are at the top. Don't put your gut hell profile at the end. 543 00:36:44,519 --> 00:36:47,320 That's like your name and get help profile, personal website, phone number, 544 00:36:47,360 --> 00:36:50,719 that that should be the order of the top the top four things on 545 00:36:50,760 --> 00:36:52,800 your CV, I think, yep, for sure. Cool, all right, 546 00:36:52,880 --> 00:36:58,159 let's do some picks. Yeah, so I'm going to pick the book. 547 00:36:58,239 --> 00:37:00,199 I think I picked it on this program before, but it's a bit 548 00:37:00,199 --> 00:37:01,599 a while and I just mentioned it, so I have to pick now. 549 00:37:01,719 --> 00:37:06,039 It's the book that taught me about knowledge options, and it's the book is 550 00:37:06,039 --> 00:37:10,039 called Commitment, a novel about managing risk, or I'm sorry, Commitment a 551 00:37:10,079 --> 00:37:15,599 novel about managing project risk. And it's it's a fictionalized graphic novel of all 552 00:37:15,679 --> 00:37:20,559 things. I never read a graphic novel until this. But it's about a 553 00:37:20,599 --> 00:37:24,119 project manager who's working on a struggling project. But really the point of it 554 00:37:24,159 --> 00:37:30,280 is how to how to use what's called real options, which is a technical 555 00:37:30,360 --> 00:37:35,599 term for basically waiting until the last minute to make the last responsible minute to 556 00:37:35,599 --> 00:37:38,039 make decisions so you're not committed to something that might turn out to be the 557 00:37:38,039 --> 00:37:43,760 wrong answer. So it's really applicable to software delivery and technology in general. 558 00:37:43,800 --> 00:37:45,360 It's even applicable to the way you drive your car to work in the morning, 559 00:37:45,440 --> 00:37:47,639 if you want to think about it that way. You know, should 560 00:37:47,639 --> 00:37:51,519 I change lanes in now or wait until later? So it's really applicable to 561 00:37:51,599 --> 00:37:55,199 all areas of life, but it's specifically about project management, which I don't 562 00:37:55,199 --> 00:37:58,239 know. I enjoyed it. It's a graphic novel, as I said, 563 00:37:58,280 --> 00:38:00,599 so you don't probably, I mean, I guess guess you could get a 564 00:38:00,639 --> 00:38:02,679 kindle version if there is one, but you really want to see the pages. 565 00:38:02,960 --> 00:38:07,440 Yeah, so yeah, that's my recommendation commitment novel about managing project risk 566 00:38:07,599 --> 00:38:12,639 by Olav Massen and others. Lincoln right on, I'm going to check it 567 00:38:12,639 --> 00:38:15,639 out. I'm just interested because you mentioned that it's a graphic novel, and 568 00:38:15,760 --> 00:38:20,840 now I'm like, I gotta I gotta see what that's about. Novels are 569 00:38:20,840 --> 00:38:22,760 for nerds, all right, and maybe they are. I don't know that. 570 00:38:23,360 --> 00:38:25,760 I guess I'm a nerd now because I've read one. It makes me 571 00:38:25,840 --> 00:38:30,159 wonder, like, could I pull off a book on Kubernetes. It's like 572 00:38:30,199 --> 00:38:34,559 a coloring book or dot to dots. I want the link to sign up 573 00:38:34,559 --> 00:38:40,840 for that already. It's a dot to dot which you've got to identify the 574 00:38:40,920 --> 00:38:45,840 prime numbers to connect your doctor container to the Kubernetes control plane. Nice. 575 00:38:46,400 --> 00:38:53,199 Yeah, yeah, all right, I'm on it. So my pick is 576 00:38:53,239 --> 00:38:57,119 going to be. There's a new book out from a guy named Thiago Forte 577 00:38:57,239 --> 00:39:00,920 called it Building a Second Brain. You may have heard of his content. 578 00:39:01,079 --> 00:39:05,360 This is his first book, but he's been doing the Building a Second Brain 579 00:39:05,440 --> 00:39:08,880 content for a while. I got the book because I am horribly unorganized. 580 00:39:08,920 --> 00:39:13,920 I've got stuff in dropbox, I've got it in Apple Notes, I've got 581 00:39:13,960 --> 00:39:20,039 it in ever note, Google docs, notion and post it notes and three 582 00:39:20,119 --> 00:39:23,480 ring binders, and I have all these notes, but I can never find 583 00:39:23,559 --> 00:39:28,039 any of them whenever I need it. And so the Building a Second Brain 584 00:39:28,599 --> 00:39:34,119 is his strategy for organizing all of that stuff so that you can find it 585 00:39:34,199 --> 00:39:36,960 and when you're looking for it, you know where to look, which is 586 00:39:37,239 --> 00:39:39,039 the big obstacle for me, Like, I know I have this piece of 587 00:39:39,039 --> 00:39:43,320 content somewhere, but for the life of me, can't figure out where it's 588 00:39:43,360 --> 00:39:46,920 at. So if you're unorganized like me, check it out Building a Second 589 00:39:46,920 --> 00:39:52,039 Brain by Tiago Forte. And yeah, with that, best of luck in 590 00:39:52,079 --> 00:39:57,960 your job search. Let us know on social media if we overlooked anything, 591 00:39:58,199 --> 00:40:01,559 or even call us out if you think completely wrong on something because or even 592 00:40:01,599 --> 00:40:05,119 halfway wrong, ie you completely wrong. To want to know about it. 593 00:40:05,320 --> 00:40:07,760 Yeah, I mean, I'm not aware of any instances, but there are 594 00:40:07,920 --> 00:40:12,159 rumors that I've been wrong before in the past, so I'm curious to get 595 00:40:12,199 --> 00:40:16,559 your feedback. You know, I thought I was wrong once, but then 596 00:40:16,599 --> 00:40:23,119 I realized I wasn't all right everyone, thanks for listening. Thanks Jonathan, 597 00:40:23,159 --> 00:40:25,000 I'll see you next week. Until next time,