WEBVTT

1
00:00:40.240 --> 00:00:45.320
Hello, and welcome to Open Mind
UFO Radio. I am your host and

2
00:00:45.439 --> 00:00:49.280
my name is Alejandro Rojas, and
I am here with my news guy,

3
00:00:49.880 --> 00:00:56.840
who is Martin Fancy but willis fancy. But yeah, I was going to

4
00:00:56.960 --> 00:01:00.960
use the A word, but uh, you know what I put season YouTube

5
00:01:00.000 --> 00:01:04.480
now and I don't want to risk
you know, a rating issue, that's

6
00:01:04.599 --> 00:01:10.120
true. Yeah, yeah, we
can picture what you Yeah, you know

7
00:01:10.159 --> 00:01:15.000
it doesn't really work that well.
What's that fancy? But I know it

8
00:01:15.000 --> 00:01:19.560
doesn't sound half as good. Now. Have you ever ran into an issue

9
00:01:19.680 --> 00:01:23.760
with a guest, you know,
using profanity or something on YouTube and then

10
00:01:23.840 --> 00:01:27.120
you having any sort of rating issue. No, I've had that happen a

11
00:01:27.159 --> 00:01:33.640
couple of times, and you know, I'll one time I repeated the word

12
00:01:33.640 --> 00:01:38.280
I said, I don't think we
could say yeah beep on this show,

13
00:01:38.599 --> 00:01:41.599
and no, nothing ever happened.
Huh. Yeah, I know, like

14
00:01:41.719 --> 00:01:45.400
I've had like it like Chris O'Brien, I know that's it was, I

15
00:01:45.400 --> 00:01:51.599
think too, really same person.
Yeah that is so funny. So just

16
00:01:51.640 --> 00:01:53.719
so I guess, no, you
know this is actually a UFO show.

17
00:01:55.239 --> 00:01:57.640
Although I might get off topic a
bit, and I will in a second,

18
00:01:57.680 --> 00:02:00.359
but you're gonna enjoy it because I'm
going to talk about you know,

19
00:02:00.560 --> 00:02:06.719
just how and why Martinez so fancy. But we will be talking UFOs,

20
00:02:07.319 --> 00:02:13.000
UFO news and then our guest today, and I'm very excited about this.

21
00:02:13.080 --> 00:02:16.199
I know I always say that,
but there's an extra level of excitement for

22
00:02:16.280 --> 00:02:21.159
my guest, Nick Pope. And
the reason why is that he used to

23
00:02:21.199 --> 00:02:24.840
work for the Ministry of Defense investigating
UFOs for the British government. And of

24
00:02:24.879 --> 00:02:28.840
course a lot of the news that
we're talking about, and some of what

25
00:02:28.879 --> 00:02:32.879
we'll be talking about with Nick,
including some very new and interesting insight,

26
00:02:34.439 --> 00:02:39.080
is you know, the US government
investigation into UFOs. And I think that

27
00:02:39.120 --> 00:02:44.800
you all will be intrigued by our
conversation because we will. You know,

28
00:02:46.400 --> 00:02:49.800
I feel we do ask. I
do ask some of the tougher questions that

29
00:02:50.240 --> 00:02:53.439
you know, people think that could
be posed. And I think Nick's answers

30
00:02:53.479 --> 00:03:00.840
are just extremely insightful and intelligent,
and so this will be a lot of

31
00:03:00.840 --> 00:03:06.159
fun. And you know, it
helps that he has a British accent to

32
00:03:06.400 --> 00:03:12.599
add to his answers even sounding more
intelligent. It has that way, doesn't

33
00:03:12.639 --> 00:03:16.520
it It does, quite, it
quite does. So and I called you

34
00:03:16.639 --> 00:03:21.680
speaking of fancy and in Europe.
You know, we don't have to give

35
00:03:21.719 --> 00:03:24.439
details because I know you can't talk
about your clients. But this is amazing.

36
00:03:24.520 --> 00:03:28.439
So you're just finishing a job,
you're starting a new one, and

37
00:03:28.479 --> 00:03:32.000
you sent me, you know,
the picture of the mansion because you're you

38
00:03:32.039 --> 00:03:38.759
know, giving I guess pricing for
this really expensive historic stuff. But so

39
00:03:38.840 --> 00:03:42.199
this person you just got done with, can I at least add you know

40
00:03:42.240 --> 00:03:46.159
where she went and stuff? Oh
yeah, oh yeah, sure, yeah,

41
00:03:46.159 --> 00:03:51.159
she's she's a famous television family.
That's uh, that's the best way

42
00:03:51.280 --> 00:03:55.639
you can put it. Yeah,
traveling in France with an open pocketbook,

43
00:03:55.719 --> 00:04:02.240
purchasing amazing stuff whatever she wanted for
thirty years, just for fun. And

44
00:04:02.680 --> 00:04:09.280
yeah, sixth floor townhouse at downtown
Boston. It's just absolutely so much fun

45
00:04:09.360 --> 00:04:13.400
to go through. That is incredible. That would be I can only imagine

46
00:04:13.439 --> 00:04:16.480
the type of stuff you're looking at, probably furniture and art and that sort

47
00:04:16.519 --> 00:04:19.560
of thing. Oh yeah, yeah, wow, yeah, I'm really historic

48
00:04:19.600 --> 00:04:24.319
pieces too. Wow. So it's
a lot of fun. So, speaking

49
00:04:24.360 --> 00:04:27.720
of the East Coast, I'm going
to be in Baltimore in a few weeks

50
00:04:27.720 --> 00:04:30.399
from November eighth to the eleventh,
and so will Nick Poke my guest.

51
00:04:30.759 --> 00:04:36.079
We're both going to be speaking at
alien Con. And since it's kind of

52
00:04:38.399 --> 00:04:43.120
that, that's probably still quite a
jount for you, huh. You know,

53
00:04:43.360 --> 00:04:46.959
I've I've went and visited Ray Stanford
down there, and it took me

54
00:04:46.040 --> 00:04:50.800
about I think about seven hours something
like that drive. It is a bit

55
00:04:50.800 --> 00:04:55.240
of a jaunt. So you probably
won't be coming out to visit us,

56
00:04:56.839 --> 00:05:01.360
maybe not but you, but but
alien Con. Yeah, I mean that's

57
00:05:01.439 --> 00:05:06.680
kind of a that's kind of a
strange way. Alien Con. Yeah,

58
00:05:06.720 --> 00:05:11.399
that's what they're calling it. This
is those of you who watch Ancient Aliens

59
00:05:11.399 --> 00:05:16.720
probably see the commercials for this during
the program. This is kind of they're

60
00:05:16.879 --> 00:05:21.639
the major sponsor or the back row
of this thing, although it's a different

61
00:05:21.639 --> 00:05:30.240
company that runs it. And of
course Georgio and Eric von Danikin and some

62
00:05:30.279 --> 00:05:34.759
of these other people who are on
that program are are the speakers, and

63
00:05:35.360 --> 00:05:41.040
so I've got an opportunity. We
are going to have a UFO Congress booth

64
00:05:41.079 --> 00:05:45.519
there. We did that at their
last event in Pasadenia and sold stuff like

65
00:05:45.680 --> 00:05:50.399
crazy because we have the coolest UFO
and alien stuff if you ask me,

66
00:05:50.480 --> 00:05:55.240
In fact, you may hear some
typing here and there in the background,

67
00:05:55.639 --> 00:06:03.399
and that is the famous Karen Brard
actually really procuring some more Alien and UFO

68
00:06:03.600 --> 00:06:09.519
products for our event and theirs and
so yeah, so that ought to be

69
00:06:09.519 --> 00:06:14.279
a lot of fun. Wow,
And when did you say that was November?

70
00:06:14.360 --> 00:06:17.399
I think the event is actually ninth
to the eleventh. Ah, so

71
00:06:17.560 --> 00:06:23.680
just google Alien Con and you'll find
it. That's right. Wow. Nice.

72
00:06:24.000 --> 00:06:29.720
Yeah, So let's go ahead and
get into some UFO news. What

73
00:06:29.839 --> 00:06:33.920
you got for us? Well,
I think this is interesting. Uh.

74
00:06:34.160 --> 00:06:40.720
This is something that Cheryl Costa wrote. She always writes in the Syracuse Times

75
00:06:41.120 --> 00:06:45.600
or New Times. I guess it's
called and I really like this article.

76
00:06:45.680 --> 00:06:50.000
It's the Mystery of Changing UFOs.
The prize is hiding in the details.

77
00:06:50.199 --> 00:06:56.920
That's a subtitle. So basically she's
talking about one of the most perplexing of

78
00:06:56.920 --> 00:07:01.439
all UFO shapes. And she's talking
about about the morphing or the changing UFO

79
00:07:01.680 --> 00:07:05.120
category. I have heard a number
of people talk about it. Now.

80
00:07:05.120 --> 00:07:11.920
I thought it was very interesting and
curious. Maybe sometimes I thought maybe something

81
00:07:12.399 --> 00:07:15.959
changed an angle or something. Why
people say they change, but people talk

82
00:07:16.000 --> 00:07:21.360
about drastic changes in shape. So
she goes on to write that, you

83
00:07:21.399 --> 00:07:26.279
know, she was thinking that was
perhaps the observers that were flawed, but

84
00:07:26.439 --> 00:07:32.319
maybe there's really something to this because
she listened to the talk show with George

85
00:07:32.399 --> 00:07:39.399
Knapp on Coast to Coast and he
was interviewing Shaqa Lee, who of course

86
00:07:39.480 --> 00:07:45.920
is one of the deans of uphology, and so Jacques was making a point

87
00:07:45.959 --> 00:07:51.199
about the changing UFOs that seemed to
morph in an effort to confound observers through

88
00:07:51.240 --> 00:08:00.319
cameras and other scientific equipment that researchers
might be using. So I have I

89
00:08:00.360 --> 00:08:03.639
know, I've heard of like people
saying, well, maybe it's ball,

90
00:08:03.759 --> 00:08:09.439
lightning or plasma or something like that. But it's not just we're not talking

91
00:08:09.480 --> 00:08:15.079
about just lights in the sky.
We're talking about actually seeing some type of

92
00:08:15.120 --> 00:08:18.079
what may look like some type of
craft and actually shape a change shape as

93
00:08:18.120 --> 00:08:22.399
well, not just the lights.
So and I have heard of a number

94
00:08:22.399 --> 00:08:26.560
of stories. As a matter of
fact, one of the most amazing stories

95
00:08:26.560 --> 00:08:30.680
I heard is a guy that's not
even interested in UFOs told me about really

96
00:08:31.159 --> 00:08:33.360
he told me, I want me
to tell you the story real quick.

97
00:08:33.399 --> 00:08:37.679
Sure, that'd be great. This
is a guy that's actually on the Antiques

98
00:08:37.759 --> 00:08:41.879
road show constantly, and I used
to share an office with him, and

99
00:08:41.679 --> 00:08:46.039
one day admitted to him that I, you know, I did a show

100
00:08:46.080 --> 00:08:48.120
on UFOs and he looked at me
real serious. He goes, I saw

101
00:08:48.200 --> 00:08:52.279
one, and I go, well, can you tell me about it?

102
00:08:52.039 --> 00:08:58.720
And he said, well, yes, he was in college and he said

103
00:08:58.919 --> 00:09:01.360
they were. He said, I
I admit I was drinking. We were

104
00:09:01.360 --> 00:09:03.840
in a dorm and he says,
but outside some of the cart our eye

105
00:09:03.840 --> 00:09:07.320
outside, and he said, we
saw the thing swoop in and we looked

106
00:09:07.360 --> 00:09:11.840
and it was the shape of a
box, like a rectangular box, with

107
00:09:11.960 --> 00:09:15.480
lights all around it, and it
was just floating. He was on like

108
00:09:15.559 --> 00:09:22.240
the seventeenth floor and Amherst and Amherst
College, and he says it was below

109
00:09:22.320 --> 00:09:28.159
them, and then he saw it
shoot off into the sky, and all

110
00:09:28.200 --> 00:09:31.080
of a sudden he saw it burst
into five lights, and then the lights

111
00:09:31.080 --> 00:09:35.840
were opposing and they were like he
said, they were like the signaling back

112
00:09:35.879 --> 00:09:41.080
and forth. And then he heard
noise and he saw a fighter jet with

113
00:09:41.120 --> 00:09:46.120
its after burner going right toward it. And as soon as it got nearer,

114
00:09:46.159 --> 00:09:50.519
the thing, he said, absolutely
disappeared vanished, which I think is

115
00:09:50.559 --> 00:09:56.120
really a great UFO the UFO completely
vanished. All the lights were just gone.

116
00:09:56.200 --> 00:09:58.200
It was totally gone. He never
saw it take off or anything.

117
00:09:58.399 --> 00:10:01.960
So I said, oh my god, I said, didn't that change your

118
00:10:01.000 --> 00:10:05.519
whole life? And he goes,
I could care less. I can't care

119
00:10:05.559 --> 00:10:11.240
so less. I was so shocked
by that answer. A funny answer,

120
00:10:13.039 --> 00:10:15.240
yeah, And so I asked him, if you talk on my show,

121
00:10:15.240 --> 00:10:18.679
he goes, not a chance.
Wow, he sounds like a character,

122
00:10:20.600 --> 00:10:24.600
definitely is how funny. Wow,
that's a that's that's a great sighting though,

123
00:10:26.120 --> 00:10:28.919
And you're right, this is a
great story. And I'm glad that

124
00:10:30.039 --> 00:10:37.480
Cheryl tackled this because the stats that
she showed were also interesting in that the

125
00:10:37.519 --> 00:10:45.039
reports of morphing you know, craft
or UFOs is consistent throughout the years,

126
00:10:45.840 --> 00:10:50.159
which kind of bolsters the point that
this isn't just mistaken you know these but

127
00:10:52.080 --> 00:10:54.799
you know, if if they were
mistaken and people were just accidentally you know,

128
00:10:54.919 --> 00:11:00.440
seeing something more, you probably wouldn't
see that consistency throughout the years that

129
00:11:00.519 --> 00:11:05.919
she's demonstrated there is. So yeah, I agree. I think it was

130
00:11:05.960 --> 00:11:09.639
a fascinating topic for her to tackle. And she goes into like you said,

131
00:11:09.720 --> 00:11:15.799
she goes into all the statistics.
It's very very well written article and

132
00:11:15.840 --> 00:11:20.799
there's graphs and everything, and so
that's the there's even graphs. Yeah,

133
00:11:20.879 --> 00:11:26.639
she even writes graphs. So if
you go on to the Sarahcuse New Times

134
00:11:26.919 --> 00:11:30.720
website, you can see that article
right there, right, and you can

135
00:11:30.759 --> 00:11:35.919
find that the front page of Open
Minds that TV and yes, it's linked

136
00:11:35.960 --> 00:11:39.279
right there. So you can also
see moving on to a new story where

137
00:11:39.320 --> 00:11:43.639
you and I are at least have
a bit of an I told you so,

138
00:11:43.960 --> 00:11:48.200
I think moment here is on our
front page. You also see a

139
00:11:48.200 --> 00:11:52.399
bunch of stories about Tom DeLong and
to the Stars, and of course you

140
00:11:52.480 --> 00:11:56.879
and I have talked about this,
and you know, I didn't shy away

141
00:11:56.879 --> 00:12:03.080
from this, even though people call
me a kind of an apologist or something

142
00:12:03.080 --> 00:12:05.559
for to the Stars and a bit
I am, I'd admit, because I'm

143
00:12:05.639 --> 00:12:09.679
very excited about what they're doing,
and I think what they're doing is really

144
00:12:09.720 --> 00:12:13.200
important. But this, you know, in the UFO conspiracy circles, people

145
00:12:13.240 --> 00:12:18.399
were talking about them being thirty seven
million dollars in debt, and I was

146
00:12:18.440 --> 00:12:22.679
afraid that this was kind of and
I was half expecting, I don't know

147
00:12:22.679 --> 00:12:28.559
about you, that it would bleed
into mainstream media, and sure enough it

148
00:12:28.600 --> 00:12:35.399
did. Ours Technique wrote the first
story, and then some others wrote a

149
00:12:35.440 --> 00:12:39.799
story on that, and of course
DeLong actually responded upset, and so did

150
00:12:39.840 --> 00:12:46.080
to the Stars because they were way
off base. And it has to do

151
00:12:46.480 --> 00:12:50.519
with something I pointed out because people
mentioned this. So I looked at the

152
00:12:50.679 --> 00:12:58.039
SEC Security document and you see here
that if you go down to the budget,

153
00:12:58.120 --> 00:13:03.519
because it's all outlined here, those
millions of dollars are on this line

154
00:13:03.559 --> 00:13:07.919
called stock based compensation. People are
speculating, Oh, they built a big

155
00:13:07.039 --> 00:13:11.279
UFO with a thirty million dollars and
they're not gonna share it with people that

156
00:13:11.360 --> 00:13:15.200
are just gonna call the bankrupt and
fly around in their UFO or something like

157
00:13:15.240 --> 00:13:20.559
that. But no stock based compensation. So I don't know the deed.

158
00:13:20.720 --> 00:13:24.559
You know, this is just as
complicated as the astrophysics that some of the

159
00:13:24.600 --> 00:13:30.799
guys come on and talk about.
But uh or that Chris Cogswell, he

160
00:13:30.799 --> 00:13:35.960
wrote a great story actually on the
science of investigating materials, and it's very

161
00:13:37.039 --> 00:13:43.879
high level too. You can find
that out Open Minds. But this stock

162
00:13:43.879 --> 00:13:48.600
based compensation line is not real money. It's not money. They spent.

163
00:13:48.200 --> 00:13:56.080
It's essentially how they compensate their employees
and investors and others. I guess with

164
00:13:56.200 --> 00:14:03.000
stock. And I have a story
on minds dot TV from Isaac Cooy that's

165
00:14:03.039 --> 00:14:05.600
not his real name, but he's
actually a barrister in the UK, a

166
00:14:05.720 --> 00:14:11.679
lawyer in the UK who is into
UFO stuff, and he explains this a

167
00:14:11.679 --> 00:14:16.799
little better and although he is often
critical occasionally to the stars, he says

168
00:14:18.080 --> 00:14:22.200
these stories were really unfair and completely
off base, that that's not real money

169
00:14:22.200 --> 00:14:26.919
that they owe. Essentially, I
guess in order to make good on this,

170
00:14:26.080 --> 00:14:31.240
they do need money to come in. But it's kind of like,

171
00:14:31.759 --> 00:14:37.519
you know, a lot of these
organizations are nonprofit and the people involved don't

172
00:14:37.519 --> 00:14:39.600
get paid at all, like mufon
or something like that. And Uh,

173
00:14:41.240 --> 00:14:46.039
However, in this case, they'll
it in the hopes that the company makes

174
00:14:46.080 --> 00:14:50.519
money eventually. Uh, then they
will make money off of the stock that

175
00:14:50.519 --> 00:14:54.919
they're compensated from. Uh. And
that's kind of where this all comes down

176
00:14:54.960 --> 00:14:58.960
to. So it was not they're
not thirty seven million dollars in debt.

177
00:15:00.120 --> 00:15:05.000
That's completely inaccurate, and everybody,
including our technique and the mainstream has corrected

178
00:15:05.000 --> 00:15:11.320
their stories. So they've got egg
on their face. Yeah, and I'm

179
00:15:11.360 --> 00:15:15.080
sure that that author and who I
felt what, you know, he wrote

180
00:15:15.080 --> 00:15:18.200
a sloppy story, is what I've
called it, because it is, you

181
00:15:18.240 --> 00:15:22.600
know, And unfortunately we've talked about
this before. The mainstream media when they

182
00:15:22.600 --> 00:15:28.919
write about paranormal UFOs don't seem to
always adhere to the level standards that end

183
00:15:28.120 --> 00:15:35.120
with others, and so they are
loose with their facts and statements and kind

184
00:15:35.159 --> 00:15:37.759
of tongue in cheek like this story
was, and he was way off on

185
00:15:37.840 --> 00:15:43.279
it. So so I just feel
kind of glad that at least, you

186
00:15:43.279 --> 00:15:48.080
know, we took kind of a
more closer look at that than many did.

187
00:15:48.159 --> 00:15:50.840
And you know, when I was
pointing out, hey guys, this

188
00:15:50.919 --> 00:15:54.960
is stock based competition. This isn't
real dollars what you're seeing here spent or

189
00:15:54.000 --> 00:15:58.480
not, like this isn't you know, they're not in debt, I got

190
00:15:58.519 --> 00:16:00.559
a lot of criticism for it for
oh yeah, right, you know,

191
00:16:00.799 --> 00:16:03.600
and then what is it? Why
would they say this? And it's like,

192
00:16:03.679 --> 00:16:08.080
well, we just have to ask
people. As always, when you

193
00:16:08.159 --> 00:16:14.039
don't understand something, instead of making
some big conspiracy, you need to talk

194
00:16:14.080 --> 00:16:17.360
to an expert to explain it to
you is what it comes down to,

195
00:16:17.440 --> 00:16:21.720
which is what journalism is and what
this is why we do these interviews and

196
00:16:22.360 --> 00:16:25.840
certainly many times when you have an
expert come in and explain, Hey,

197
00:16:25.879 --> 00:16:33.080
guys, this is what this really
means. It's not as nefarious or as

198
00:16:33.120 --> 00:16:37.720
it may seem to be. Is
there some type of tax implications to this

199
00:16:37.960 --> 00:16:41.679
as well? I mean for the
reason yeah, of this filing. I

200
00:16:41.679 --> 00:16:47.120
think you're exactly. I'm pretty sure
from what I understand, that's why they

201
00:16:47.159 --> 00:16:49.919
have to report it in this way. It's all about tax reporting. So

202
00:16:51.639 --> 00:16:56.720
I guess there's a perceived value or
potential value to the stocks and they have

203
00:16:56.759 --> 00:17:03.600
to report that value. And that's
what this is all about. Is is

204
00:17:03.600 --> 00:17:07.440
Isaac cooy puts it and you can
read the details because it, like I

205
00:17:07.440 --> 00:17:10.680
said, it gets over my head. He talks about like, let's say

206
00:17:10.680 --> 00:17:15.880
you've got a company. You're selling
books, and you know you're you're selling

207
00:17:15.920 --> 00:17:21.640
a thousand books and you know you
make ten thousand dollars a year, but

208
00:17:21.799 --> 00:17:26.000
somebody gives you a technology and says, hey, you can have this and

209
00:17:26.039 --> 00:17:30.480
you can now sell this. Well, in order to develop that technology,

210
00:17:30.519 --> 00:17:33.960
you would sell stock into your company
which is kind of you know, projected

211
00:17:34.000 --> 00:17:37.000
with your company, and you have
to guess, I think I'm going to

212
00:17:37.079 --> 00:17:42.039
be able to make X amount,
so I'm going to value my stock at

213
00:17:42.119 --> 00:17:48.079
this and uh so then you're going
to sell that stock so you can develop

214
00:17:48.119 --> 00:17:52.880
your product, and so you have
to report, you know, what your

215
00:17:52.039 --> 00:17:59.279
potential value is when for your company. So I think that that kind of

216
00:17:59.279 --> 00:18:04.279
makes sense to me, so that
it's it's similar to that. Now.

217
00:18:04.319 --> 00:18:07.480
I wonder if they've like had people
try to pull out of you know,

218
00:18:07.480 --> 00:18:11.319
people that are investing or I mean, wonder if this has been a real

219
00:18:11.400 --> 00:18:18.319
negative you know, has had negative
implications to what they're trying to do.

220
00:18:18.160 --> 00:18:22.319
You know what, That's a very
good question. And at least I've heard

221
00:18:22.440 --> 00:18:33.000
anecdotedly, anecdotally that some investors have
been a bit taken aback by this because

222
00:18:33.039 --> 00:18:36.400
they didn't understand and they're like,
oh, what the heck, you know,

223
00:18:36.480 --> 00:18:44.920
did I just throw away all my
money? And and and they supposedly

224
00:18:45.480 --> 00:18:48.880
have not gotten answers when they ask
about it. I don't know that any

225
00:18:48.920 --> 00:18:53.200
of that is true. Those are
just some of the accusations out there,

226
00:18:53.319 --> 00:18:57.519
and of course there's so much mud
slinging going on. In fact, earlier,

227
00:18:57.680 --> 00:19:03.200
I think today I had a I
like my little saying here. What

228
00:19:03.279 --> 00:19:11.599
I told someone is that the UFO
community often has a bad habit of eating

229
00:19:11.640 --> 00:19:18.000
its own and the bigger the fish, the more they feast. And what

230
00:19:18.039 --> 00:19:22.559
I mean is bigelow all of these
organizations. The bigger you are when you

231
00:19:22.599 --> 00:19:29.720
get involved with this topic, the
more you're criticized and just attacked. Sure,

232
00:19:29.759 --> 00:19:37.920
and which is frustrating. And but
unfortunately the way it is, yeah,

233
00:19:37.000 --> 00:19:41.960
some you know, some actually deserve
it. But uh but you know,

234
00:19:42.039 --> 00:19:47.200
the yeah, yeah, because they're
they're actually it is a just a

235
00:19:47.240 --> 00:19:49.799
money game, right, But those
aren't usually, at least to me,

236
00:19:49.920 --> 00:19:56.839
the big fish in the respect of
a mainstream. Often those are people in

237
00:19:56.960 --> 00:20:00.640
certain niches who are taking advance,
taking advantage of and they become big as

238
00:20:00.680 --> 00:20:04.160
far as followings and dollars. I
think that they pull in some of these

239
00:20:04.200 --> 00:20:10.839
people even though they're charlatan. It's
like you're saying, but what can you

240
00:20:10.880 --> 00:20:15.880
do? Huh? Right, can
only keep our side of the street clean,

241
00:20:15.200 --> 00:20:18.400
as they say, yeah, and
doing that, you know, I

242
00:20:18.440 --> 00:20:22.200
think that Chris Cogs will and he
is a bit of a critic when it

243
00:20:22.240 --> 00:20:27.160
comes to to the Stars. He
of course I've had him on fairly recently.

244
00:20:27.240 --> 00:20:32.880
He's a PhD in chemical engineering.
But he did it the right way.

245
00:20:32.960 --> 00:20:37.519
He submitted and I'm so happy he
did. He submitted this paper to

246
00:20:37.720 --> 00:20:44.319
me for Open Minds about the science
of proving if an object is created by

247
00:20:44.400 --> 00:20:48.799
an extraterrestrial civilization. And his intent
is that, you know, if to

248
00:20:48.920 --> 00:20:52.440
the Stars is claiming that they're going
to be doing this sort of analysis,

249
00:20:53.039 --> 00:20:57.839
here's the sort of analysis that needs
to be done, and I think that's

250
00:20:57.880 --> 00:21:00.799
the right way to do it.
It's a professional way to say that,

251
00:21:02.240 --> 00:21:04.880
hey, public, you know,
here is what they are up against.

252
00:21:06.440 --> 00:21:11.799
And he's kind of saying, as
a scientist in this field, this is

253
00:21:11.799 --> 00:21:14.599
the bar that I'm going to hold
them to when they come out with their

254
00:21:14.599 --> 00:21:17.920
information, which is the appropriate way
to do it. That's how science is

255
00:21:17.960 --> 00:21:22.920
done, is that you know,
science check each other's work, and so

256
00:21:22.960 --> 00:21:25.519
that's what he's going to be doing. He's going to say, it's kind

257
00:21:25.519 --> 00:21:26.880
of like, hey, guys,
you know, I think really you or

258
00:21:26.920 --> 00:21:30.400
anybody else doing this, this is
what you need to do if we're going

259
00:21:30.440 --> 00:21:36.799
to prove this to the mainstream scientific
community. That's right. That's what makes

260
00:21:36.839 --> 00:21:38.640
sense. So it's a great article. It's highly technical. I don't know

261
00:21:38.640 --> 00:21:42.839
if you read it. The first
few paragraphs the introduction I get, and

262
00:21:42.880 --> 00:21:47.319
that's the most important part. He
outlines, you know, the steps and

263
00:21:47.359 --> 00:21:51.920
everything, and then it gets really
technical into the actual test that need to

264
00:21:51.960 --> 00:22:00.240
be done X ray diffraction, isotopic
research and atoms and isotopic racial map spectraumetry.

265
00:22:00.799 --> 00:22:04.920
I don't even know if I'm saying
it right. All this really complicated

266
00:22:06.039 --> 00:22:10.519
stuff. So, especially for you
science nerds out there who do know what

267
00:22:10.559 --> 00:22:12.720
all this stuff is, I think
you really love this article. You'll find

268
00:22:12.720 --> 00:22:17.359
it out open Minds. I was
just scanning through it. Wow. It

269
00:22:17.440 --> 00:22:19.920
is very thorough, it is,
isn't it. Yeah, really makes a

270
00:22:19.920 --> 00:22:23.359
lot of sense to a lot of
big words. Are there words that you

271
00:22:23.400 --> 00:22:30.559
don't know? Or are you kind
of a physics genius? The words I

272
00:22:30.599 --> 00:22:34.799
don't know? Yeah, Well,
that's good that you're honest, because if

273
00:22:34.839 --> 00:22:37.680
you would have said you are a
physics genius, I would have called you

274
00:22:37.759 --> 00:22:41.519
on it. Oh no, I'm
so glad I almost did right here in

275
00:22:41.640 --> 00:22:45.920
public, in front of everybody.
I would have said, you're full of

276
00:22:45.920 --> 00:22:49.240
it. My friend but no,
you're honest, dude. Well, yeah,

277
00:22:49.319 --> 00:22:56.759
I'm not really up on what energy
disperseif X ray spectrocrosipy is either very

278
00:22:56.799 --> 00:23:00.279
complicated stuff, but it makes a
lot of sense. It's essentially he's saying,

279
00:23:00.680 --> 00:23:03.640
it's threefold. You have to prove
that something is made in space.

280
00:23:04.000 --> 00:23:08.200
But if it's made in space,
that doesn't necessarily mean it it's of an

281
00:23:08.240 --> 00:23:14.039
extra terrestrial intelligence, because a meteor, for example, would come from space.

282
00:23:14.480 --> 00:23:18.920
So it also needs to demonstrate it's
engineered. It's a manufactured thing,

283
00:23:18.319 --> 00:23:23.160
but even if it's manufactured in space, that doesn't necessarily mean it's from an

284
00:23:23.160 --> 00:23:30.119
extraterrestrial civilization. So the one more
thing that you need is that the technology

285
00:23:30.319 --> 00:23:37.400
used to produce this engineered material needs
to be of a nature that is foreign

286
00:23:37.440 --> 00:23:41.160
to us or more advanced that we
don't understand. So those three things,

287
00:23:41.240 --> 00:23:45.880
and it does sound like to the
stars in what they're looking at is trying

288
00:23:47.039 --> 00:23:49.480
to do just that. So it'll
be interesting, of course, it'll be

289
00:23:49.559 --> 00:23:55.680
groundbreaking if they're able to prove such
a thing in the future, right,

290
00:23:55.759 --> 00:23:59.920
I mean, you know they're with
the elements that are available in the universe.

291
00:24:00.200 --> 00:24:03.839
We who knows. I mean something
could be exactly like something we could

292
00:24:03.880 --> 00:24:07.240
make and still be alien technology.
Yeah, that's entirely possible. At the

293
00:24:07.319 --> 00:24:12.240
point is that in order to prove
it to the mainstream that it is extraterrestural,

294
00:24:12.279 --> 00:24:15.839
it'll have to go beyond. But
you're right, and that is even

295
00:24:15.880 --> 00:24:21.720
the case with extraterrestrial life. So
there are instances, and we have this

296
00:24:21.839 --> 00:24:26.680
video with you know, a NASA
scientist talking about it, where there's life

297
00:24:26.680 --> 00:24:32.200
found on a meteorit or potential signs
of life. But the next step of

298
00:24:32.279 --> 00:24:36.240
proving that it came from elsewhere,
not the planet, that's the hard part.

299
00:24:36.480 --> 00:24:41.039
Even though it may have we haven't. We're not necessarily able to prove

300
00:24:41.160 --> 00:24:45.720
that. But we're out right we
are already. Wow. Yeah, lies.

301
00:24:45.279 --> 00:24:48.279
Well, thank you so much for
joining us with the news. Martin

302
00:24:48.319 --> 00:24:52.960
Willis check him out on podcast UFO. We will be right back after this

303
00:24:53.079 --> 00:25:11.079
short break with Nick Pope, so
stay tuned. I am very happy to

304
00:25:11.160 --> 00:25:15.960
welcome back to the show Nick Pope. Now, I know you're a busy

305
00:25:15.039 --> 00:25:19.680
guy, and thank you so much
for coming back to the show. Thank

306
00:25:19.720 --> 00:25:23.079
you, it's great to be back
on now. It's great to have you

307
00:25:23.119 --> 00:25:26.319
too, because it wasn't so long
ago where I think you said you were

308
00:25:26.319 --> 00:25:30.000
going to kind of slow down your
involvement in the field of UFOs, But

309
00:25:30.039 --> 00:25:33.799
that didn't really happen, did it. Well, as the classic quote goes,

310
00:25:34.119 --> 00:25:37.559
just when I thought I was out, they pulled me back in.

311
00:25:37.519 --> 00:25:41.359
It may be a good thing because
as soon as you said, you know,

312
00:25:41.519 --> 00:25:45.400
you might reduce your involvement, then
exciting things happened to pull you back

313
00:25:45.440 --> 00:25:52.400
in. So it worked absolutely so. And the exciting things that happened were

314
00:25:52.519 --> 00:25:56.440
related to the government, the United
States government, because all of a sudden,

315
00:25:56.680 --> 00:26:00.720
the United States had a secret program, and you have kind of a

316
00:26:02.079 --> 00:26:07.480
counterpart in Loue Alexander or Alessando,
someone who was involved with investigating UFOs for

317
00:26:07.559 --> 00:26:14.359
the US. However, as you've
written in The Guardian, and this is

318
00:26:14.400 --> 00:26:19.240
what's really exciting about your recent article
is that you kind of highlight the impact

319
00:26:19.440 --> 00:26:26.279
that is happening behind the scenes that
people don't know so much about. So

320
00:26:26.519 --> 00:26:30.759
I guess my question my first question
would be you talk about in this article

321
00:26:30.839 --> 00:26:40.799
how the Congress essentially is starting to
take notice and ask questions and how did

322
00:26:40.839 --> 00:26:48.400
you come about that information? From
a number of sources, but including some

323
00:26:48.279 --> 00:26:57.359
currently serving internal governmental sources and to
clarify what's going on. It's a complex

324
00:26:57.480 --> 00:27:06.799
situation. There are three different strands
to the current congressional interest and I'll just

325
00:27:06.799 --> 00:27:11.440
take them one by one if I
can. First, Yeah, the first

326
00:27:11.519 --> 00:27:18.000
is the Senate Armed Services Committee.
Now they are looking specifically at the two

327
00:27:18.000 --> 00:27:23.240
thousand and four Nimits incident, which, of course we've all seen the videos

328
00:27:23.279 --> 00:27:26.599
of the Navy jets chasing the UFOs. This was a big part of the

329
00:27:26.640 --> 00:27:33.759
New York Times story when they ran
it in December last year. So Senate

330
00:27:33.920 --> 00:27:41.880
Armed Services Committee has interviewed at least
two of the pilots involved in that incident,

331
00:27:41.559 --> 00:27:45.079
reached out too, and I'm not
sure whether they have or haven't yet

332
00:27:45.119 --> 00:27:52.200
interviewed one of the radar operators.
But so there is that strand of interest.

333
00:27:52.240 --> 00:28:00.759
Separately, in parallel, the House
Armed Services Committee is has looked more

334
00:28:00.920 --> 00:28:07.279
generally at a tip what is it, what was it doing, how was

335
00:28:07.359 --> 00:28:14.559
taxpayers money spent? What did they
conclude? And there is a congressional record

336
00:28:15.039 --> 00:28:22.319
which I linked to in my Guardian
article, and it specifically says there that

337
00:28:22.400 --> 00:28:27.680
the Defense Intelligence Agency, and of
course this was a DIA program, supplied

338
00:28:27.799 --> 00:28:37.319
the House Armed Services Committee with essentially
a briefing answering those questions. So Senate

339
00:28:37.400 --> 00:28:41.200
Armed Services Committee, House Armed Services
Committee, and just when you think it

340
00:28:41.240 --> 00:28:48.720
couldn't get more complex, the Space
Technology pardon me, the Science, Technology

341
00:28:48.720 --> 00:28:55.079
and Space Committee have have taken a
look at this and the Space Subcommittee and

342
00:28:55.119 --> 00:29:03.839
Representative Amy Barr raised this in a
roundtable discussion hosted by Politiko some months ago,

343
00:29:04.079 --> 00:29:08.400
and Amy Bearer said, yeah,
I've had discussions with the chair of

344
00:29:08.480 --> 00:29:15.440
the Space Subcommittee and the full Science, Technology and Space Committee. So there's

345
00:29:15.400 --> 00:29:26.160
arguably three strands of congressional interest in
this in specifically the Nimitz incident, specifically

346
00:29:26.240 --> 00:29:33.839
in a tip and I think segueing
from that into the wider question of UAP

347
00:29:33.599 --> 00:29:37.799
itself, what is the phenomena?
What are we dealing with here? So

348
00:29:40.160 --> 00:29:48.680
there is undisput indisputably this multi stranded
congressional interest. The real question is is

349
00:29:48.880 --> 00:29:56.440
any of that going to transition into
formal hearings and if so, who's going

350
00:29:56.519 --> 00:30:00.599
to lead on that? I mean, for example, what the Space Subcommittee

351
00:30:00.599 --> 00:30:06.079
decided, Yeah, we want to
get into this, but there was pushback

352
00:30:06.440 --> 00:30:10.839
from say the Armed Services Committee saying, wait a minute, a tip was

353
00:30:11.319 --> 00:30:18.759
a military an intelligence community program hands
off, so that I suspect is the

354
00:30:18.799 --> 00:30:22.680
sort of discussion that's going on behind
the scenes at the moment. Firstly,

355
00:30:22.880 --> 00:30:27.240
will there be formal hearings and secondly, who's who's going to be managing them.

356
00:30:27.680 --> 00:30:33.559
What's interesting too, especially when it
comes to this Space Committee, is

357
00:30:33.680 --> 00:30:38.519
that it's Bigelow Aerospace because they are
and I don't think I make a pointer

358
00:30:38.640 --> 00:30:42.160
to call this out every time I
can, but I don't think people realize

359
00:30:42.319 --> 00:30:48.000
what a big player they are on
the space scene. They're one of the

360
00:30:48.039 --> 00:30:53.359
big guys you know that the Space
Committee is considering when they're when they're working

361
00:30:53.400 --> 00:31:00.920
on their policies and future around working
with private corporation. And of course Robert

362
00:31:00.920 --> 00:31:06.000
Bigelow is also in the mix,
and that he received funding from the Defense

363
00:31:06.039 --> 00:31:11.319
Intelligence Agency for these paranormal investigations.
Well, yes, indeed, And of

364
00:31:11.359 --> 00:31:21.319
course people are still trying to untangle
the thorny inter relationship between all these different

365
00:31:21.400 --> 00:31:27.799
acronyms that are flying around a TIP
and or SAP and Bigelow Aerospace and specifically

366
00:31:27.920 --> 00:31:33.880
the BASS and NEDS and trying to
figure out and now of course to the

367
00:31:33.920 --> 00:31:41.200
Stars Academy all these players, all
these complicated inter relationships, and I don't.

368
00:31:42.000 --> 00:31:45.359
I don't profess to have all the
answers on this, and I should,

369
00:31:45.559 --> 00:31:51.000
I should say, because this came
up actually yesterday. I am not

370
00:31:51.880 --> 00:31:56.880
a member of any of these organizations. I tend not to be a joiner.

371
00:31:56.559 --> 00:32:01.720
I'm a bit of a lone wolf. So I had no official despite

372
00:32:01.759 --> 00:32:07.839
my back government background in the UK, I had no official involvement with or

373
00:32:07.920 --> 00:32:14.640
SAP or a TIP. I'd left
the British government by then anyway, and

374
00:32:14.680 --> 00:32:20.119
it's not clear that the UK government
even had a role in these programs.

375
00:32:20.200 --> 00:32:25.759
And I'm certainly not a member.
I have never worked for any any Robert

376
00:32:25.799 --> 00:32:30.319
Bigelow company or entity, and neither
am I a member of the To the

377
00:32:30.359 --> 00:32:35.000
Stars Academy. So I don't.
I don't hold a brief for any of

378
00:32:35.039 --> 00:32:37.559
these people, which in one sense
is good. I can take a step

379
00:32:37.599 --> 00:32:43.960
back, I can hopefully look at
the big strategic picture. And while I'm

380
00:32:44.079 --> 00:32:47.680
bound, of course by the British
Government secrecy oath, I have no sort

381
00:32:47.720 --> 00:32:52.920
of non disclosure agreements here in the
UK in the US, so I can

382
00:32:52.960 --> 00:32:55.559
call it how I see it,
mm hmm. And that's what makes it

383
00:32:55.640 --> 00:33:00.799
interesting too as we all try to
figure this out, is how all of

384
00:33:00.839 --> 00:33:08.440
these groups relate. And I guess
just to as an example of unanswered questions,

385
00:33:08.519 --> 00:33:14.960
you referred to ASAP, which was
the Advanced Aerospace Weapons System Application Program,

386
00:33:15.319 --> 00:33:20.599
And from reporting from George Knapp we
at KLAS in Las Vegas, we

387
00:33:20.599 --> 00:33:23.279
we know the existence of this program
and they're the ones who worked with Bigelow

388
00:33:23.359 --> 00:33:29.119
and received the funding. But at
the same time, then this other organization,

389
00:33:29.200 --> 00:33:34.839
Alizondo, was part of a TIP. UH, it was created.

390
00:33:35.200 --> 00:33:38.079
We don't know when or how that
kind of took over at least the UFO

391
00:33:38.240 --> 00:33:47.240
portion, but there's so many answered
questions inside of that that we who knows

392
00:33:47.480 --> 00:33:51.920
when we'll get the answers to that
one? And one of those is and

393
00:33:52.200 --> 00:33:57.039
this is interesting, is this kind
of terminology We hear a TIP referred to

394
00:33:57.079 --> 00:34:02.440
as the Advanced Aerospace Threat Identify Program, the DoD IS referred to it as

395
00:34:02.440 --> 00:34:08.679
the Advanced Aviation Threat Identification Program,
and then in this document you're talking about,

396
00:34:09.280 --> 00:34:14.119
it's kind of funny because they referred
to it as he Advanced Aerospace Threat

397
00:34:14.199 --> 00:34:21.719
and Identification Program. Yes, and
one wonders with all of this whether and

398
00:34:22.559 --> 00:34:28.239
I Obviously, when I was in
the UK government, I received Freedom of

399
00:34:28.280 --> 00:34:31.599
Information Act requests and dealt with them, so I didn't make them. But

400
00:34:32.239 --> 00:34:39.239
one wonders what effect, for example, leaving out and would would have on

401
00:34:39.639 --> 00:34:45.360
something like this, as you say, if you look at the Congressional record,

402
00:34:45.639 --> 00:34:52.360
the House Congressional Record dated April ninth
one sees in as you say,

403
00:34:52.400 --> 00:35:02.559
paragraph four three eight one this reference
to Advanced Aerospace Threat and Identification Program.

404
00:35:02.599 --> 00:35:07.800
And one wonders, you know,
if people are making FOI requests and they

405
00:35:07.880 --> 00:35:14.400
leave out an end, or if
they ask for aerospace and Pentagon is right

406
00:35:14.519 --> 00:35:20.159
and actually it's aviation, whether whether
these these FOI requests are going to fall

407
00:35:20.519 --> 00:35:25.159
because of a missing and or or
whether in the spirit of the act people

408
00:35:25.280 --> 00:35:28.920
will respond and say, well,
this is clearly what you meant. Here's

409
00:35:28.960 --> 00:35:34.599
the paperwork. But of course it's
it's staggering actually how little we we have

410
00:35:34.960 --> 00:35:42.440
from from the government at the moment. Another interesting aspect is that the government,

411
00:35:43.079 --> 00:35:47.000
our government is so interested. I
mean, as you mentioned, you

412
00:35:47.039 --> 00:35:53.119
know there's there's three different committees that
have decided since the New York Times article

413
00:35:53.239 --> 00:36:02.079
in December to actively investigate or inquire
about the topics raised in the ATIP program

414
00:36:02.119 --> 00:36:07.679
that Alexander and The New York Times
and to the Staris have brought to the

415
00:36:07.760 --> 00:36:15.960
light. This is pretty shocking really
in that what's interesting, and I love

416
00:36:15.000 --> 00:36:20.159
your input. At least in the
UK and in the United States in the

417
00:36:20.199 --> 00:36:28.400
past, Congress really hasn't gotten involved
until there was public pressure. But in

418
00:36:28.440 --> 00:36:32.199
this case it's not really due so
much to public pressure, it doesn't seem,

419
00:36:32.280 --> 00:36:37.199
but it's more like they're taking their
own active interest. Do you feel

420
00:36:37.199 --> 00:36:39.559
like that's accurate. Yes, I
think it is. And one reason,

421
00:36:39.639 --> 00:36:44.559
of course, is that the New
York Times story. You know, even

422
00:36:44.639 --> 00:36:49.159
though this is small change in the
defense budget, once you mentioned that twenty

423
00:36:49.239 --> 00:36:55.320
two million dollars of taxpayers money was
spent, all sorts of antennae start twitching.

424
00:36:55.519 --> 00:37:06.639
And the ultimate irony of this would
be if the push for certainly Congress

425
00:37:06.679 --> 00:37:08.280
to take a look at this,
maybe to have hearings. Actually, the

426
00:37:08.320 --> 00:37:14.199
irony would be if it came from
skeptics who might argue, what the heck

427
00:37:14.239 --> 00:37:17.119
are we doing spending twenty two million
dollars of taxpayers money on this nonsense?

428
00:37:17.239 --> 00:37:22.159
For so it might be one of
those rare occasions where it's the skeptics who've

429
00:37:22.199 --> 00:37:31.000
managed to really kick this one over
the line. But what's interesting also when

430
00:37:31.000 --> 00:37:37.880
you refer to that political article where
the space members of the Space Committee were

431
00:37:37.000 --> 00:37:43.519
discussing I wrote an article on that
too, because it's fascinating news. They

432
00:37:43.559 --> 00:37:49.679
were discussing this topic in a very
positive light. One of the members,

433
00:37:49.840 --> 00:37:53.960
a House member who was part of
the committee I remember, had mentioned how

434
00:37:54.320 --> 00:38:00.639
he thought the topic was really interesting, and it was a political host who

435
00:38:00.719 --> 00:38:05.400
actually asked the question, but he
said, yeah, this is a really

436
00:38:05.400 --> 00:38:09.280
interesting question. I've brought this up
in our committee. And then the others

437
00:38:09.320 --> 00:38:14.599
confirmed that, you know, Amy, she had brought up that she had

438
00:38:14.599 --> 00:38:17.880
brought it up, and the other
gentleman who's part of the committee just said

439
00:38:17.920 --> 00:38:21.599
he was willing to talk about it. He found it interesting as well.

440
00:38:22.119 --> 00:38:29.079
It seemed like, at least in
that environment, it was about genuine curiosity

441
00:38:29.119 --> 00:38:32.239
on the topic. Yes, I
think so. And of course it's no

442
00:38:32.360 --> 00:38:40.239
coincidence perhaps that literally in the last
what month, we had NASA's Techno Signature

443
00:38:40.320 --> 00:38:50.159
workshop taking place, I think,
down in Houston, and of course now

444
00:38:50.400 --> 00:38:54.960
the news that NASA is going to
be perhaps focusing a little bit more on

445
00:38:55.000 --> 00:38:59.000
the search for life. Well,
the fact that all these things are happening

446
00:38:59.039 --> 00:39:04.199
at the same time can only help, I think. But having said that,

447
00:39:04.800 --> 00:39:08.039
I go back to the point that
there may be pushback from the Armed

448
00:39:08.039 --> 00:39:13.840
Services Committee on this and a certain
kind of what's the expression, get your

449
00:39:13.880 --> 00:39:16.599
tanks off our lawn? And this
is more our business. I mean,

450
00:39:16.599 --> 00:39:23.880
if you ask the question, should
the Space Committee be getting into the nuts

451
00:39:23.920 --> 00:39:30.079
and bolts of what an intelligence program
embedded in DIA did, the answer might

452
00:39:30.119 --> 00:39:37.719
be no. So it might be
that a more appropriate home for inquiries and

453
00:39:37.760 --> 00:39:44.000
hearings about a TIP is the Emerging
Threats and Capability Subcommittee. And if you

454
00:39:44.039 --> 00:39:49.440
look at the if you look at
the terms of reference, it specifically mentions

455
00:39:49.599 --> 00:39:55.599
unconventional threats and isn't isn't that almost
exactly what we're dealing with here? And

456
00:39:55.639 --> 00:40:01.480
going back, of course to Harry
Reid's June twenty fourth, two thousand and

457
00:40:01.599 --> 00:40:06.800
nine letter to William Lynn the third
I mean, I think the language is

458
00:40:06.840 --> 00:40:13.320
almost identical m the other. And
that's kind of where you came from as

459
00:40:13.320 --> 00:40:16.320
well. You were working for the
Ministry of Defense, so you were looking

460
00:40:16.320 --> 00:40:21.519
into this similar to a TIP,
which is part of U d as a

461
00:40:22.360 --> 00:40:30.719
potential threat, Yes, very much
so. In fact, the final two

462
00:40:30.840 --> 00:40:36.280
Ministry of Defense UFO files, which
have actually yet to be sent to the

463
00:40:36.360 --> 00:40:42.000
National Archives, but I have an
advanced copy which I pulled out of my

464
00:40:42.039 --> 00:40:47.639
bookshelf just before this interview, and
they at quite high levels of classification,

465
00:40:47.800 --> 00:40:52.719
get into this very debate. And
I'm reading from a document here. It

466
00:40:52.719 --> 00:40:59.639
says, the second and critical question
is do UAPs represent a possible threat to

467
00:40:59.679 --> 00:41:04.639
the of the realm? And then
it gets into a sort of almost philosophical

468
00:41:04.719 --> 00:41:09.199
argument about Russian aircraft penetrating our air
defenses in the Cold War, and it

469
00:41:09.199 --> 00:41:15.000
says, well, they didn't have
any hostile intent, but they certainly represented

470
00:41:15.039 --> 00:41:22.599
a threat. And then the paragraph
concludes, thus, the only logical conclusion

471
00:41:22.880 --> 00:41:27.719
we can come to is that we
do not know if UAPs represent a threat

472
00:41:27.800 --> 00:41:32.159
to the defense of the realm.
And interesting enough, you know, that

473
00:41:32.679 --> 00:41:37.519
reminds me of Chile, which is
a government who actually investigates and they came

474
00:41:37.559 --> 00:41:45.119
to the conclusion, interesting that the
phenomena is benign, which I think is

475
00:41:45.159 --> 00:41:49.719
the only government aided you know to
ever do that. Well, it's a

476
00:41:49.800 --> 00:41:54.840
nice piece of wish for thinking.
No, I mean one of we'll probably

477
00:41:54.880 --> 00:42:00.039
get onto this, but my new
documentary film Aliens in the Pentagon, Aliens

478
00:42:00.039 --> 00:42:04.039
at the Pentegon. Pardon me.
I can't even get the name of my

479
00:42:04.079 --> 00:42:07.679
own movie right now. But the
tagline for that, or one of the

480
00:42:07.679 --> 00:42:14.800
taglines is the T in a tip
stands for threat, and there's a reason

481
00:42:14.840 --> 00:42:21.679
for that. Now. I don't
know what discussions and intelligence analysis the Chilean

482
00:42:21.760 --> 00:42:25.760
government and Air Force have had on
that, but I am surprised. I

483
00:42:25.800 --> 00:42:30.280
am surprised that they have concluded this
is benign. I don't see. I

484
00:42:30.400 --> 00:42:37.079
don't see without a proper intelligence assessment, and maybe they've done one, but

485
00:42:37.159 --> 00:42:39.239
I have yet to see one.
I don't see how they could have made

486
00:42:39.239 --> 00:42:45.320
that conclusion because there is an equation. I know this sounds bizarre. There's

487
00:42:45.320 --> 00:42:50.199
an equation for whether a threat exists, and a threat is said to be

488
00:42:50.480 --> 00:42:55.400
a construct of capability and intent.
Well, we have some idea of the

489
00:42:55.440 --> 00:43:00.400
capability, we have no idea,
frankly, of of the intent. And

490
00:43:00.440 --> 00:43:07.519
I'm surprised that Chileans would attempt an
assessment based on that. That's really interesting

491
00:43:07.559 --> 00:43:14.000
to know that there is that formula
which makes sense and from what I understand

492
00:43:14.039 --> 00:43:19.519
that Chileans used historical data in saying
that. You know, I think there

493
00:43:19.559 --> 00:43:23.800
there is even some sort of quote
to this effect, which was that historically,

494
00:43:24.159 --> 00:43:32.760
you know that our interactions have not
caused, have not exhibited a malevolence.

495
00:43:34.440 --> 00:43:38.679
Well, yeah, I get that, but I totally disagree. It's

496
00:43:38.760 --> 00:43:45.000
like, Okay, Hitler came to
power in nineteen thirty three and not Nazi

497
00:43:45.039 --> 00:43:49.800
Germany and things. It's kind of
a little bit like Stalin saying, well,

498
00:43:50.360 --> 00:43:53.000
the Nazi regime hasn't attacked us so
far, so there's no threat.

499
00:43:53.400 --> 00:43:58.760
Well we all know what happened next. You know, just because something has

500
00:43:58.800 --> 00:44:06.079
not displayed overt hostility does not mean
that in intelligence terms, does not mean

501
00:44:06.559 --> 00:44:12.119
you can say there is no threat. And in fact, in the last

502
00:44:12.239 --> 00:44:17.199
two Ministry of Defense files, when
they are released, you will see basically

503
00:44:17.400 --> 00:44:24.880
a split developing between different parts of
the mod with the intelligence staff frankly saying

504
00:44:24.920 --> 00:44:30.800
some pretty disparaging things about my former
colleagues and saying, who are these people

505
00:44:30.880 --> 00:44:37.880
to say there's no threat? What
made them suddenly experts on intelligence and analysts?

506
00:44:37.400 --> 00:44:46.400
That's really interesting. The second part
of the Chilean quote was around the

507
00:44:46.400 --> 00:44:52.679
biggest threat is distraction from our pilots
when they see one, and they figured

508
00:44:52.719 --> 00:44:58.360
they needed to have some training essentially
to if there's a UFO around, don't

509
00:44:58.360 --> 00:45:02.719
worry about it, pay attention to
flying the plane. Well, I agree

510
00:45:02.719 --> 00:45:07.920
with that. I have to say
that seems to have been lifted directly from

511
00:45:07.960 --> 00:45:17.119
the declassified mod Intelligence study Project Condine, which which very famously quoted almost that,

512
00:45:17.320 --> 00:45:22.320
and Project Condine was dated the final
report was dated two thousand and there

513
00:45:22.360 --> 00:45:29.440
was a recommendation on that point and
it said air crew encountering UAP should take

514
00:45:29.519 --> 00:45:32.440
no action aside from trying to keep
the object astern. In other words,

515
00:45:32.440 --> 00:45:36.239
whatever these things are, I don't
mess with them. So that's where the

516
00:45:36.320 --> 00:45:39.000
Chileans got that one from. They
got it from the UK Menstry of Defense.

517
00:45:39.159 --> 00:45:43.000
Mm hmm. I'm sure they did, because I know they rely heavily

518
00:45:43.079 --> 00:45:50.119
on US and Britain and other countries
and their reports. Yes, indeed,

519
00:45:50.199 --> 00:45:55.480
and Project Condine is clearly something that
a TIP we're aware of as well.

520
00:45:55.559 --> 00:46:04.039
And again if you look at the
different studies that some parts of a TIP

521
00:46:04.119 --> 00:46:09.000
were doing and the different technologies,
quite a lot of them clearly have have

522
00:46:10.599 --> 00:46:15.480
I won't say their roots because I
don't want to claim that the Ministry of

523
00:46:15.480 --> 00:46:21.719
Defense was absolutely first into this business, but there is clearly some cross fertilization

524
00:46:22.239 --> 00:46:28.599
between some of what a TIP was
doing and some of what's in Project Condine.

525
00:46:29.000 --> 00:46:36.519
Really interesting Jesus, time flies.
So another fascinating aspect of all of

526
00:46:36.559 --> 00:46:39.119
this, And I want to say
for the listener, Nick and I have

527
00:46:39.440 --> 00:46:45.519
a whole other interview that we've done
here on Open Mind GFO Radio on Condine

528
00:46:45.639 --> 00:46:49.159
in particular, where we talked about
that completely the whole time, so you

529
00:46:49.239 --> 00:46:53.639
could look that up. But when
we're getting back to what you were mentioning

530
00:46:53.679 --> 00:46:59.519
about, you know, the threats
and this possible jogging with the Space Council.

531
00:46:59.559 --> 00:47:04.559
Hey, you know this is your
wheelhouse, this is ours. As

532
00:47:05.000 --> 00:47:08.840
you know, more and more of
our space programs go into the commercial space.

533
00:47:09.400 --> 00:47:15.079
What's interesting about this, and it
probably even gives Robert Bigelow even more

534
00:47:16.920 --> 00:47:22.639
importance, is that if they decide
in you know, the public arena too

535
00:47:22.840 --> 00:47:28.679
or the private corporations, that they
need to assess whether there are threats and

536
00:47:29.119 --> 00:47:36.719
how this phenomenon may affect their programs. It's interesting to I guess speculate on

537
00:47:37.239 --> 00:47:42.840
I wonder if there are you know
these conversations happening inside of these corporations.

538
00:47:42.840 --> 00:47:46.159
We certainly know it's happening with Bigelow, but I wonder if you know he's

539
00:47:46.199 --> 00:47:49.960
gotten called from Elon Musk and said, hey, we need to sit down

540
00:47:50.000 --> 00:47:53.039
and talk about this. Well,
you would hope so, particularly because of

541
00:47:53.079 --> 00:48:00.480
course space tourism and literally taking people, paying passengers into space is going to

542
00:48:00.559 --> 00:48:06.639
be arguably the next step of where
this is going, and indeed a big

543
00:48:07.000 --> 00:48:10.119
source of potential income for the private
sector, which is, as you correctly

544
00:48:10.119 --> 00:48:16.960
say, moving into this ground increasingly. So sure, if there are threats

545
00:48:17.000 --> 00:48:22.440
out there, whatever, whether we're
dealing with other intelligences or whether we're just

546
00:48:22.480 --> 00:48:29.480
dealing with natural phenomena, people like
Robert Bigelow, Elon Mask, Richard Branson,

547
00:48:30.400 --> 00:48:32.519
they need to know about it.
H Well, it's time to take

548
00:48:32.559 --> 00:48:37.480
our first break, So we'll take
a short break and then we will be

549
00:48:37.679 --> 00:48:42.840
right back for the podcast listeners,
you will hear a short musical interlude.

550
00:48:43.119 --> 00:48:46.199
But we are here with Nick Pope, who used to work for the Ministry

551
00:48:46.239 --> 00:48:52.920
of Defense, investigating UFOs, much
like we have recently found Loue Elizondo did

552
00:48:53.039 --> 00:48:58.079
and others. Although we don't know
who those others are, and there's much

553
00:48:58.119 --> 00:49:05.440
more transparent actually with your program then
there was with a tip. But we'll

554
00:49:05.480 --> 00:49:08.159
get into that after the break,
So we'll be right back. You're listening

555
00:49:08.199 --> 00:50:09.679
to over Mind you O Radio.
Welcome back to Open Mind UFO Radio.

556
00:50:09.840 --> 00:50:15.719
I am here with Nick Pope,
formerly of the Ministry of Defense, currently

557
00:50:15.880 --> 00:50:22.599
out there sharing his knowledge and thoughts
on the UFO topic, claiming to be

558
00:50:22.159 --> 00:50:29.519
the expert, the biggest UFO expert
in the world. Although I would say

559
00:50:29.559 --> 00:50:34.119
that, you know, I might
agree with that. I certainly hold you

560
00:50:34.159 --> 00:50:37.920
in very high regard when it comes
to this topic. Oh well, thank

561
00:50:37.960 --> 00:50:42.800
you. Do you get a little
embarrassed when people say that that you're the

562
00:50:42.880 --> 00:50:50.840
foremost UFO expert. I'm sure my
agent would be pleased with those sorts of

563
00:50:50.880 --> 00:50:55.079
statements, but I will let I
will let the people decide. I mean,

564
00:50:55.199 --> 00:51:00.960
clearly, I'm one of a very
small number of people, lou Alizondo

565
00:51:00.039 --> 00:51:04.280
being another one who's done this,
who's looked at this from the inside.

566
00:51:04.599 --> 00:51:07.400
And whether that makes us more expert
or not, I don't know, but

567
00:51:07.440 --> 00:51:14.119
it certainly gives us a different perspective
and an inside view onto all of this.

568
00:51:14.760 --> 00:51:19.119
What that reminds me of something else. Lou always tells me, you

569
00:51:19.199 --> 00:51:22.639
know, I'm not an expert.
I'm not an expert. I don't know

570
00:51:22.760 --> 00:51:28.840
anything about this field. And because
he did not look into the historic information

571
00:51:29.800 --> 00:51:36.440
when it came to this topic,
which I can see actually makes sense at

572
00:51:36.519 --> 00:51:40.360
least for civilian research. Was that
the case with you and your program,

573
00:51:40.480 --> 00:51:45.039
or did you look more into the
civilian research in this topic. It's a

574
00:51:45.159 --> 00:51:51.320
really tricky one. I get Lou's
point that he wanted to come into this

575
00:51:51.400 --> 00:51:54.320
with an open mind and he didn't
want to be, you know, kind

576
00:51:54.360 --> 00:52:02.159
of dragged down by the baggage of
history. So coming to this clean is

577
00:52:02.199 --> 00:52:07.000
good. And indeed that's exactly what
happened to me in the Ministry of Defense.

578
00:52:07.599 --> 00:52:13.559
I was simply posted into the UFO
program as just part of the regular

579
00:52:13.679 --> 00:52:17.400
cycle of career postings in the Ministry
of Defense. I had no prior interest

580
00:52:17.519 --> 00:52:22.679
or involvement in this subject, no
knowledge, no belief particularly either way.

581
00:52:23.400 --> 00:52:27.639
I was just given this as a
job to do. On the other hand,

582
00:52:28.519 --> 00:52:32.159
once I had my feet under the
table, and no disrespect to Lew's

583
00:52:32.239 --> 00:52:42.119
point, but I did feel that
to contextualize the newly reported sightings and data

584
00:52:42.159 --> 00:52:45.719
that we were getting. It was
incumbent on me to do a little bit

585
00:52:45.119 --> 00:52:51.679
of digging into what has happened before, not least for example, so that

586
00:52:52.480 --> 00:52:55.639
I could try to do some trend
analysis. I mean, in one sense,

587
00:52:55.679 --> 00:52:59.800
it's yes, you want to go
into each and every sighting with a

588
00:52:59.840 --> 00:53:02.679
no in mind. On the other
hand, one of the biggest things in

589
00:53:02.760 --> 00:53:08.719
the intelligence community is you look for
patterns and trends, and to do that,

590
00:53:08.880 --> 00:53:15.480
to spot those trends, you need
access to historical data. And in

591
00:53:15.519 --> 00:53:22.719
fact, one of the big discussions
in the last two yet to be officially

592
00:53:22.760 --> 00:53:30.639
released Ministure Defense files is about how
can we do a proper intelligence assessment if

593
00:53:30.679 --> 00:53:35.719
we don't have a big database look
for patterns. You know, for example,

594
00:53:36.039 --> 00:53:42.320
are there clusters of sightings around particular
sites? If there are, that

595
00:53:42.440 --> 00:53:47.360
might tell us something about intent.
But if I can just briefly go back,

596
00:53:49.480 --> 00:53:53.719
just quote something again, it's a
better quote about this whole threat issue.

597
00:53:53.960 --> 00:54:00.599
And it's from a document that was
classified secret Uki's B and it encapsulates

598
00:54:00.639 --> 00:54:07.159
this whole thing perfectly. It says, lack of evidence of hostile acts does

599
00:54:07.199 --> 00:54:13.000
not mean there is no threat,
which does make a lot of sense.

600
00:54:13.239 --> 00:54:15.800
I mean, I know, a
lot of people get frustrated. There's a

601
00:54:15.800 --> 00:54:21.519
lot of feedback. You've probably heard
that feedback also, because there is a

602
00:54:21.559 --> 00:54:24.840
contingency of people who and I kind
of get it, really, who refuse

603
00:54:24.880 --> 00:54:31.000
to believe that there is any threat. But oh completely I get. I

604
00:54:31.000 --> 00:54:35.039
won't say hate mail, but I
get when I talk about this and when

605
00:54:35.079 --> 00:54:38.800
I talk about threats and things,
the whole if I can call it,

606
00:54:38.960 --> 00:54:45.320
the new Age wing of the UFO
community get up in arms about this,

607
00:54:45.360 --> 00:54:52.599
and I get accused of pushing a
kind of cabalist agenda. And you've heard

608
00:54:52.639 --> 00:54:59.840
all the nonsense about false flag alien
invasions. I've been accused of whipping up

609
00:55:00.679 --> 00:55:06.320
climate of fear and hysteria about this
so that the New World Order can play

610
00:55:07.079 --> 00:55:14.320
what allegedly von Brown called the last
card, the alien threat, and that

611
00:55:14.320 --> 00:55:19.400
we're going to get some sort of
space Patriot Act and the New World Order

612
00:55:19.440 --> 00:55:23.719
and the Illuminati sweep away the last
vestiges of our freedoms. I mean,

613
00:55:23.800 --> 00:55:28.239
you know, that's the sort of
territory you get into if you talk too

614
00:55:28.320 --> 00:55:34.440
much about a threat, and you
know, you get into something interesting,

615
00:55:34.639 --> 00:55:38.760
though, which is where, okay, if there's this renewed interest in our

616
00:55:38.800 --> 00:55:44.199
government in this topic. Where do
they go with it? So, for

617
00:55:44.239 --> 00:55:47.960
example, we have a blue Book
and the other projects which just kind of

618
00:55:49.239 --> 00:55:52.639
they looked, they looked, and
they ended. Of course, I can

619
00:55:52.920 --> 00:56:00.320
you can argue what their intentions were, not necessarily discovery. But if you

620
00:56:00.400 --> 00:56:04.960
get with these newer projects or your
projects, they there doesn't seem to be

621
00:56:05.280 --> 00:56:12.199
much of an endgame there. So
even with this renewed interest, where would

622
00:56:12.280 --> 00:56:15.679
you recommend if they were to ask
you, where would the government go with

623
00:56:15.719 --> 00:56:20.400
this? Well? I think you
would have to have a better filter than

624
00:56:20.840 --> 00:56:27.119
Blue Book and the British government's UFA
project ever had, because it's quite clear

625
00:56:27.199 --> 00:56:32.599
if you weighed through the sixty thousand
pages of documents that the MOD has declassified

626
00:56:32.599 --> 00:56:37.760
in the last ten years, that
ninety nine percent of it is garbage or

627
00:56:37.800 --> 00:56:45.719
not garbage, but frankly of little
value in undertaking a proper intelligence assessment of

628
00:56:45.880 --> 00:56:49.159
what we're dealing with. I mean, it's literally, it's it's clearly,

629
00:56:49.199 --> 00:56:53.079
it's it's ninety nine percent aircraft lights
and weather balloons and fire lanterns and things

630
00:56:53.079 --> 00:56:57.920
like that. You need a way
of filtering out that at the very very

631
00:56:57.920 --> 00:57:04.800
early stages and focusing in on your
really good hard data cases. I touched

632
00:57:04.800 --> 00:57:08.519
on this in my Guardian article recently, and I said, let's not get

633
00:57:09.800 --> 00:57:16.920
obsessed with with the numbers game here. Let's let's look at quality and not

634
00:57:17.159 --> 00:57:22.519
quantity. And of course everyone,
all the skeptics and debunkers love it when

635
00:57:22.559 --> 00:57:25.920
the numbers of sighting reports go down
and we get bogged down and let's you

636
00:57:25.960 --> 00:57:30.679
know, irrelevant. Let's let's look
at the good quality information we have,

637
00:57:30.800 --> 00:57:37.199
the pilot sightings, the radar data, the photos and videos that government imagery

638
00:57:37.599 --> 00:57:40.719
analysts might look at and say,
yeah, this this, whatever it is,

639
00:57:40.760 --> 00:57:46.400
this is real solid object. Let's
find out something about it, which

640
00:57:46.440 --> 00:57:52.159
takes us back to the whole Pentagon
video saga. But yeah, we've we've

641
00:57:52.199 --> 00:57:58.679
got to we've got to get over
this this quantity argument and start talking about

642
00:57:58.760 --> 00:58:02.199
quality. So I think the first
answer to your question is we need a

643
00:58:02.280 --> 00:58:08.280
much more focused inquiry than blue Book
and the mods program ever were. Now,

644
00:58:08.360 --> 00:58:14.679
if a TIP was that focused program, then great, and maybe Congress

645
00:58:14.719 --> 00:58:17.280
will get to the bottom of that. That is a great point too,

646
00:58:17.400 --> 00:58:23.280
because it seems like if at the
model that a TIP took was, which

647
00:58:23.480 --> 00:58:30.679
was to focus on military cases,
would be more along the lines of what

648
00:58:30.840 --> 00:58:35.280
you're talking about, and seems like
it would be a better model. However,

649
00:58:35.679 --> 00:58:43.079
we have really practically no insight into
the results. The only real document

650
00:58:43.199 --> 00:58:46.679
we have is again one that George
Knapp was able to release, which was

651
00:58:46.719 --> 00:58:52.199
a leak document where our knowledge is
somewhat limited about it, but it was

652
00:58:52.239 --> 00:58:58.800
a report regarding the limit situation in
two thousand and four. Yes, I've

653
00:58:58.840 --> 00:59:01.840
seen that. That's interesting. We
do have to be fair. I go

654
00:59:01.960 --> 00:59:07.199
back to the fact that we have
Harry Reid's June twenty fourth, two thousand

655
00:59:07.199 --> 00:59:14.840
and nine, letter to William Lynn
the third That's an important piece of the

656
00:59:14.880 --> 00:59:19.000
puzzle I think. I mean this
is again it's a dilemma. It's like

657
00:59:19.079 --> 00:59:23.760
this question of do you go into
citings fresh or do you look at the

658
00:59:23.880 --> 00:59:29.519
history. And you can argue it
both way. And as much as I

659
00:59:29.559 --> 00:59:37.960
have just argued for a focused inquiry
concentrating on military cases, the counter argument

660
00:59:38.079 --> 00:59:45.719
to that is that it's patronizing and
just plain wrong to assume that no good

661
00:59:45.800 --> 00:59:51.159
data can ever come from the public. So I don't necessarily say that I've

662
00:59:51.159 --> 00:59:53.559
got the answers to this, but
I think these are the sorts of questions

663
00:59:53.719 --> 00:59:59.360
we should be asking. One other
big factor that I think we can bring

664
00:59:59.360 --> 01:00:06.880
into the the debate about this is
the role particularly if we can get historical

665
01:00:07.000 --> 01:00:15.960
data digitized and searchable. One big
factor is the role that artificial intelligence and

666
01:00:15.079 --> 01:00:22.559
algorithms could play in historical analysis.
You hear a lot these days about big

667
01:00:22.639 --> 01:00:28.760
data and AI, and I think
that might just be a very fruitful if

668
01:00:28.800 --> 01:00:31.159
Congress is going to look into this
and how can we get past some of

669
01:00:31.199 --> 01:00:36.039
these roadblocks that we've hit with this, you know, over the last seventy

670
01:00:36.119 --> 01:00:38.800
years, Big data and AI might
be an answer to that question. M

671
01:00:39.000 --> 01:00:45.559
hm. That makes a lot of
sense as well. The other question I

672
01:00:45.599 --> 01:00:52.440
would have for you, I guess
getting to your documentary Aliens at the Pentagon.

673
01:00:52.039 --> 01:00:58.280
Yes, do you use the term
alien? Was that your idea?

674
01:00:59.039 --> 01:01:06.599
Yes, but not as a statement
that this is definitively extraterrestrial, just as

675
01:01:06.679 --> 01:01:12.880
a provocative title that's going to make
people think about the situation. And of

676
01:01:12.920 --> 01:01:19.639
course alien can have a double meaning
in that sense. What I've done with

677
01:01:19.880 --> 01:01:25.800
Alien's Pentagon is I've tried to tell
the best story I can of some of

678
01:01:25.840 --> 01:01:34.639
the very complicated things that we've just
discussed about a tip and Bigelow Aerospace or

679
01:01:34.760 --> 01:01:39.679
SAP and how it all fits together. But I've tried to contextualize it and

680
01:01:40.039 --> 01:01:47.159
bring in the wider story of how
it fits in with the US government's efforts

681
01:01:47.239 --> 01:01:55.519
over the last seventy years to try
and make sense of this infuriatingly contradictory phenomenon

682
01:01:55.719 --> 01:02:01.119
that we're all struggling to deal with. Aliens at the Pentagon is is I

683
01:02:01.199 --> 01:02:07.599
think the most complete telling yet of
this story. But I don't try and

684
01:02:07.800 --> 01:02:15.960
push an answer on people. I
do. I put the data and the

685
01:02:15.000 --> 01:02:19.320
information out there and say to people, at the end of the day,

686
01:02:19.800 --> 01:02:23.840
you make up your own minds about
it. M hm. And it's the

687
01:02:23.920 --> 01:02:30.400
other thing is it's and we've had
you and I have had this discussion before

688
01:02:30.480 --> 01:02:36.039
about how to bring young people into
this subject. I made a very deliberate

689
01:02:36.079 --> 01:02:40.039
decision that this was going to be
something that we pushed out on all the

690
01:02:40.079 --> 01:02:45.960
platforms that these days young people get
their information from when they stream, So

691
01:02:46.239 --> 01:02:52.639
Aliens at the Pentagon is on you
know, Google Play and iTunes and Vimeo

692
01:02:52.800 --> 01:02:59.239
and Voodoo and those sorts of places. Mm hm. That makes a lot

693
01:02:59.239 --> 01:03:02.320
of sense as well. Absolutely,
it's a deliberate way of trying to get

694
01:03:02.320 --> 01:03:07.679
this to a new audience. But
what I'm what I'm doing is trying to

695
01:03:07.719 --> 01:03:10.840
reignite I feel that the debate has
kind of stagnated a little bit. We

696
01:03:10.880 --> 01:03:16.159
had to the Stars Academy announcement a
year ago, then we had the New

697
01:03:16.239 --> 01:03:23.440
York Times article in December last year, and we've had the occasional nugget like

698
01:03:23.639 --> 01:03:30.760
Harry Reid's letter, like the Nimitz
report that you mentioned, but frankly,

699
01:03:30.880 --> 01:03:35.639
we've not had a whole bunch of
other things. We've had a lot of

700
01:03:35.679 --> 01:03:42.760
speculation in the blogger sphere and on
various forums and websites, very little from

701
01:03:42.760 --> 01:03:46.280
the government. So Aliens at the
Pentagon tries to do two things, three

702
01:03:46.320 --> 01:03:52.119
things. Tried to tell the story, tries to reignite the debate about this,

703
01:03:52.880 --> 01:04:00.960
and it tries to reach a different
audience. Another question I have,

704
01:04:00.599 --> 01:04:03.039
which is great, Thank you so
much for that, because that's that was

705
01:04:03.360 --> 01:04:08.920
you always guess what my next question
is going to be, and that's exactly

706
01:04:09.000 --> 01:04:12.239
where I wanted to go with it. But that's okay because I always have

707
01:04:12.320 --> 01:04:15.840
so many questions. That helps get
into more information such as this. Uh,

708
01:04:16.159 --> 01:04:20.440
this is an interesting kind of phenomena
or a result. The way this

709
01:04:20.559 --> 01:04:27.440
all happened is so haphazard. Uh, it's interesting and your perspective, I

710
01:04:27.519 --> 01:04:33.880
think would be especially interesting at this
point in that lou Elizondo leaves the DODH

711
01:04:34.119 --> 01:04:39.679
because they're not paying enough attention to
his project on UFOs, they're not taking

712
01:04:39.760 --> 01:04:45.320
UFO seriously. He then is asked
to join to the stars and these other

713
01:04:45.440 --> 01:04:49.559
very credible people, and and in
that announcement, you know says hey,

714
01:04:49.559 --> 01:04:54.639
I used to work for the d
O D looking at UFOs. A few

715
01:04:54.639 --> 01:04:59.519
people paid attention, and this New
York Times article came out and it blew

716
01:04:59.599 --> 01:05:04.559
up, and all of a sudden, now we have arguably certainly more attention

717
01:05:05.840 --> 01:05:12.639
to this topic that by the government
than we've had in decades, and perhaps

718
01:05:13.079 --> 01:05:19.480
more serious attention than we've had in
a very very long time. So by

719
01:05:19.639 --> 01:05:27.039
leaving and talking about the program,
it seemed to have generated the interest inside

720
01:05:27.079 --> 01:05:30.400
the government he was hoping it would
generate while he was in the government.

721
01:05:31.280 --> 01:05:38.599
I was wondering about your thoughts on
that unique kind of situation. Well,

722
01:05:38.679 --> 01:05:45.559
Low is clearly a highly principled individual
and he's used the phrase, I think

723
01:05:45.360 --> 01:05:53.159
he would like to see kickstarted a
conversation with the American people and through that

724
01:05:53.400 --> 01:06:00.760
a conversation with their elected leaders about
how to take this forward. And he

725
01:06:00.440 --> 01:06:04.360
and his colleagues to the Stars Academy. I know they have a lot of

726
01:06:04.360 --> 01:06:10.880
critics. I'm I'm not sitting in
judgment on any of that. There's no

727
01:06:11.000 --> 01:06:16.760
getting away from the fact that they
have played a crucial role in getting this

728
01:06:16.840 --> 01:06:21.440
information out and in doing just what
lou said he wanted to do. I

729
01:06:21.480 --> 01:06:27.199
have this conversation with the American people. Now where it goes from here,

730
01:06:27.280 --> 01:06:30.679
I don't know. We've talked about
the congressional hearings, but yeah, it's

731
01:06:31.719 --> 01:06:38.159
I talk about this. The way
I characterize this in Aliens at the Pentagon

732
01:06:38.519 --> 01:06:43.880
is I use the phrase a believer
faction, and I talk about a believer

733
01:06:44.280 --> 01:06:48.880
faction in government making its move.
But I think in a sense, yeah,

734
01:06:48.880 --> 01:06:53.840
you're right to make their move fully, they had to then take it

735
01:06:53.880 --> 01:07:00.920
outside of government, because obviously in
government there are the roadblocks they hit skepticism,

736
01:07:00.519 --> 01:07:05.960
the fact that finances is limited for
this sort of research, and the

737
01:07:05.960 --> 01:07:12.519
fact that the comes a point where
certain people's worldview and in some case,

738
01:07:12.840 --> 01:07:19.199
and this is a controversial point,
it's a religious worldview, causes senior Pentagon

739
01:07:19.719 --> 01:07:24.440
managers to say, let's you know, let's not be getting into this.

740
01:07:24.719 --> 01:07:29.599
And there's no getting away from the
fact that some of these people have said

741
01:07:29.840 --> 01:07:33.199
that UFOs and the paranormal is something
they regard as demonic. Well, we

742
01:07:33.320 --> 01:07:41.960
don't want we don't want research into
this phenomenon halted because somebody in government thinks

743
01:07:42.000 --> 01:07:45.440
it's demons. That's crazy. So
yeah, let's take it out of there

744
01:07:45.519 --> 01:07:49.960
and take it forward now in the
private sector. And just as the space

745
01:07:50.039 --> 01:07:56.639
program is slipping out of the hands
of government into the hands of the tech

746
01:07:56.679 --> 01:08:01.239
billionaires and the venture capitalists and the
privates based companies, so the same is

747
01:08:01.320 --> 01:08:06.079
happening in parallel with with UFOs and
about time too, maybe mm hmm.

748
01:08:06.559 --> 01:08:11.119
And and here's a follow up question. In fact, somebody accused me yesterday.

749
01:08:11.199 --> 01:08:15.680
Oh, people aren't asking the hard
questions, and in this question in

750
01:08:15.720 --> 01:08:18.920
particular, and I actually did ask
Lou this question. I don't think you'd

751
01:08:18.920 --> 01:08:23.840
mind me sharing the information is if
you've got the attention you wanted in the

752
01:08:23.880 --> 01:08:29.000
first place, what if the government
says, okay, we're you've proven your

753
01:08:29.039 --> 01:08:32.319
point, come back and let's take
a harder look at this. Would you

754
01:08:32.439 --> 01:08:38.319
go back? He said no.
He said that for the reasons you just

755
01:08:38.520 --> 01:08:42.920
outlined that he feels that this needs
to be a public forum and what he

756
01:08:43.079 --> 01:08:45.000
was at and if he were to
go back, it wouldn't be a public

757
01:08:45.079 --> 01:08:48.119
forum. Now, if the government
threw a lot of money at to the

758
01:08:48.159 --> 01:08:54.239
stars, who knows what would happen. I mean, if you're faced and

759
01:08:54.520 --> 01:08:59.680
that's my question to you, if
you're faced with a lucrative opportunity to do

760
01:08:59.760 --> 01:09:08.399
some you know, freelance work for
our government or your government to look into

761
01:09:08.520 --> 01:09:13.399
this topic a serious look where you
get to guide you know, you your

762
01:09:13.439 --> 01:09:17.159
efforts and your research. But you
couldn't share that publicly. You'd have to

763
01:09:17.159 --> 01:09:24.119
go through your normal channels of getting
that you're findings declassified or shared. Would

764
01:09:24.199 --> 01:09:29.760
you do it? Well, it's
it's a difficult hypothetical. You've just thrown

765
01:09:29.840 --> 01:09:34.239
my way. I think my cop
out answer to you is, I don't

766
01:09:34.279 --> 01:09:38.199
know. I would have to look
at any offer on a case by case

767
01:09:38.239 --> 01:09:42.960
basis. I wouldn't dismiss it out
of hand. I don't know whether lou

768
01:09:43.039 --> 01:09:45.279
did. I wouldn't dismiss it out
of hand. And the reason I wouldn't

769
01:09:45.359 --> 01:09:50.399
is that with the best will in
the world, government still has access to

770
01:09:50.479 --> 01:09:56.399
resources and capabilities that the private sector
doesn't, right, and that would be

771
01:09:56.479 --> 01:10:00.399
attractive to have access to that and
do it on the inside. But it

772
01:10:00.479 --> 01:10:08.279
depends. It depends how much freedom
I was given in terms of shaping the

773
01:10:08.359 --> 01:10:14.479
terms and references in terms of reference
of any inquiry and the resources and capabilities

774
01:10:14.520 --> 01:10:18.000
that I would then have access to. But I don't rule it out because

775
01:10:18.000 --> 01:10:23.560
I think even if the balance of
power is shifting to the private sector,

776
01:10:23.600 --> 01:10:27.199
and it is, I think you
can there are still things the government can

777
01:10:27.239 --> 01:10:32.319
do that the private sector can't,
So I'm undecided about that. On the

778
01:10:32.359 --> 01:10:36.680
other hand, I have already done
it for the government, so I get

779
01:10:36.760 --> 01:10:40.840
loose point. Well, we tried
that and it didn't work. Let's try

780
01:10:40.880 --> 01:10:45.800
something different. Well, thank you
so much. We are out of time.

781
01:10:45.880 --> 01:10:48.199
Of course, people can go to
Nick Pope dot net to find out

782
01:10:48.279 --> 01:10:53.600
more about you. They can also
watch your new documentary. It just came

783
01:10:53.640 --> 01:10:57.199
out Alien To at the Pentagon.
How long has it been out now and

784
01:10:57.520 --> 01:11:01.640
how has the reaction ben It's been
out for about a week reaction is really

785
01:11:01.680 --> 01:11:05.800
good. And I shouldn't say this, but I will. It's kind of

786
01:11:05.840 --> 01:11:12.319
segued, for whatever reason, out
of the UFO and alternative belief community into

787
01:11:12.439 --> 01:11:15.720
as well the sci fi and even
horror fans, and I think that's just

788
01:11:15.800 --> 01:11:23.279
a consequence of the ways it's available
on all these streaming platforms. But the

789
01:11:23.319 --> 01:11:28.159
benefit is of that, which I
appreciate because it's kind of similar with me

790
01:11:28.199 --> 01:11:30.920
writing for Den of Geek. It's
the entertainment industry, but it's bringing this

791
01:11:31.079 --> 01:11:38.279
topic to new audiences and that's so
critical. It's such an important side of

792
01:11:38.319 --> 01:11:41.239
this. Yeah, well, thank
you so much for being on the show

793
01:11:41.279 --> 01:11:45.680
again. Thank you very much.
Thank you so much to Nick Pope for

794
01:11:45.840 --> 01:11:49.479
joining us again. He is one
of my absolute favorite guests, and right

795
01:11:49.520 --> 01:11:55.199
now is an even more important time
to have him. So this is such

796
01:11:55.199 --> 01:11:59.680
an incredible conversation, I think right
now, because you know, we're truly

797
01:11:59.760 --> 01:12:09.800
seeing the vastly, you know,
the super important results of this Pentagon UFO

798
01:12:09.920 --> 01:12:14.720
program being revealed, and it's shocking. I mean, we're in a place

799
01:12:14.760 --> 01:12:17.399
that we've never been before. Just
like Nick and I talked about, we're

800
01:12:17.479 --> 01:12:24.279
both by the way, going to
be speaking at Alien Con in Baltimore November

801
01:12:24.760 --> 01:12:30.199
ninth to the eleventh. You can
go to Alien theliencn dot com is the

802
01:12:30.239 --> 01:12:33.720
website for that to find out more. But check it out come say hi.

803
01:12:33.840 --> 01:12:36.279
It'll be a lot of fun.
I think we might be on at

804
01:12:36.399 --> 01:12:41.239
least one panel together, but otherwise
we'll be having it out and it'll be

805
01:12:41.960 --> 01:12:45.399
really cool to be out there.
I haven't been to Baltimore. I hear

806
01:12:45.520 --> 01:12:49.479
that it is gorgeous, but a
couple other things. Be sure to check

807
01:12:49.479 --> 01:12:54.239
me out on UFO seriously live,
where I just babble on about stuff.

808
01:12:54.279 --> 01:12:57.479
Actually what I do is I talk
about the UFO news, so we go

809
01:12:57.560 --> 01:13:00.239
over every story and I go over
some of the other stuff that we've posted

810
01:13:00.279 --> 01:13:06.720
for the week, including that story
that I talked about earlier, from Chris

811
01:13:06.840 --> 01:13:12.079
Cogswell to PhD and chemical engineering.
Of course he's been on the show before.

812
01:13:12.960 --> 01:13:16.880
Excellent article. Highly recommend that people
go check that out at Openminds dot

813
01:13:16.920 --> 01:13:23.079
tv. Also check out the conversation
on Facebook if you're on Facebook at the

814
01:13:23.119 --> 01:13:28.319
open Minds UFO group, lots more
conversation and it's really growing a lot lately,

815
01:13:28.359 --> 01:13:31.319
which is fun because I think it's
one of the rare groups out there

816
01:13:31.359 --> 01:13:36.439
where you get a lot of information
about UFO stories in the mainstream, and

817
01:13:36.479 --> 01:13:40.399
there's a lot of great people in
there, so they're sharing their insight and

818
01:13:40.439 --> 01:13:44.520
their knowledge as well. Also check
me out on Patreon, that would be

819
01:13:44.560 --> 01:13:47.760
wonderful. On my Patreon, you'll
be able to follow all of the different

820
01:13:47.800 --> 01:13:53.079
things I'm doing besides UFO as well, so such as my den of geek

821
01:13:53.119 --> 01:13:57.760
stories, or I've got an allojandro
advantage a different YouTube site where I'm doing

822
01:13:57.760 --> 01:14:00.520
different YouTube stuff, so you could
check that out. You can click on

823
01:14:00.560 --> 01:14:04.279
the button that's there on the front
page of Openminds dot tv, and then

824
01:14:04.399 --> 01:14:10.079
of course be sure to go to
Ufocongress dot com to check out updates.

825
01:14:10.279 --> 01:14:13.600
Really there you're gonna find links too, so you'll find links to the video

826
01:14:13.720 --> 01:14:17.720
portal. You got all of the
twenty eighteen UFO Congress lectures that you can

827
01:14:17.760 --> 01:14:21.960
watch up there on video on demand. And then of course check out our

828
01:14:23.000 --> 01:14:28.199
YouTube because we're on a regular basis. There are older lectures being posted there

829
01:14:28.199 --> 01:14:31.039
for free, so that's a great
YouTube. Go there and subscribe if you

830
01:14:31.159 --> 01:14:35.560
haven't yet, so you can check
out lots of free content that's getting posted

831
01:14:35.800 --> 01:14:40.159
stuff that you're not gonna find anywhere
else that's getting posted there on a regular

832
01:14:40.199 --> 01:14:43.880
basis. And then of course,
all of the news and information that Martin

833
01:14:43.920 --> 01:14:46.600
and I talked about at the beginning
of the show you can find out at

834
01:14:46.760 --> 01:14:51.439
Openminds dot tv. So thank you
so much to Martin for joining us at

835
01:14:51.439 --> 01:14:57.000
the beginning of the show. Check
him out on podcast UFO. Thank you

836
01:14:57.039 --> 01:15:00.199
to Caleb Hanks for the opening and
close music. If you go to the

837
01:15:00.279 --> 01:15:04.159
Openminds dot tv radio page, you'll
be able to find out more about him

838
01:15:04.399 --> 01:15:09.800
and the awesome stuff that he does. And then thank you to Systematics for

839
01:15:09.880 --> 01:15:14.479
the bumper music. And of course, as always, thank you the listeners

840
01:15:14.479 --> 01:15:17.319
for being here. We'll talk to
you next week. Until then, Audio

841
01:15:17.479 --> 01:16:06.279
Smooth Churches, you were motionless