WEBVTT 1 00:00:01.800 --> 00:00:06.160 My name is Will and unlike moulderin Scully, both want to be So we've 2 00:00:06.200 --> 00:00:19.679 embarked in a journey of discovery. Welcome to Skeptic Metaficians Classic. You are 3 00:00:19.760 --> 00:00:44.920 listening to Classic Skeptic Metaphysicians. Welcome to Classic, and welcome to our version 4 00:00:44.960 --> 00:00:50.039 of a walkdown Memory Lane as we present classics from the Skeptic Metaphysician Library. 5 00:00:50.399 --> 00:00:57.200 Warts and all. Hey everyone, welcome back to another episode of the Skeptic 6 00:00:57.200 --> 00:01:02.880 Metaphysician. I think I just blew Karen's ear drums out to get ready because 7 00:01:02.880 --> 00:01:07.640 it's coming. Good morning, Karen. How are you doing today? What 8 00:01:11.159 --> 00:01:12.560 I'm doing? Great? Wonderful. Well, I'm glad to hear that, 9 00:01:12.680 --> 00:01:17.680 Karen. Today's topic is one that you and I have discussed privately a lot 10 00:01:17.799 --> 00:01:19.840 in the past couple of weeks, but now we get to bring it to 11 00:01:19.920 --> 00:01:23.879 the audience. So the question at hand is have you meditated today? You 12 00:01:23.920 --> 00:01:30.640 know, I try to meditate and it stresses me out, and I think 13 00:01:30.680 --> 00:01:33.159 that's crazy. But yeah, let me get this, let me get this 14 00:01:33.200 --> 00:01:37.760 straight. The practice it's meant to relax and calm your mind, actually stresses 15 00:01:37.799 --> 00:01:42.239 you out, it does Huh. I'm very bad at it, and I'm 16 00:01:42.280 --> 00:01:44.920 thinking the whole time about other stuff I need to do and the fact that 17 00:01:44.959 --> 00:01:47.760 I'm not doing it and that stresses me out. Well, I think our 18 00:01:47.799 --> 00:01:52.400 next guest is just the person that you need to talk to, because Ryan 19 00:01:52.560 --> 00:01:57.760 is a meditation practitioner that he's got over a decade of experience in a variety 20 00:01:57.799 --> 00:02:01.319 of Buddhist and non dual traditions. In his early twenties, he traveled throughout 21 00:02:01.359 --> 00:02:07.480 Southeast Asia and China seeking spiritual knowledge, so you know he is got legit 22 00:02:07.719 --> 00:02:13.439 stuff coming now. He's participated in over thirty meditation retreats and has been an 23 00:02:13.439 --> 00:02:17.639 instructor since twenty twelve, and he's delivered lectures on meditation and spirituality in the 24 00:02:17.759 --> 00:02:23.240 US, in Nepal and Thailand, and is the host of a podcast called 25 00:02:23.560 --> 00:02:27.759 After Awakening. I am thrilled to welcome to the show, Ryan Burton. 26 00:02:27.840 --> 00:02:30.639 Ryan, thank you for coming on, Well, thanks for having me. 27 00:02:30.680 --> 00:02:34.919 I'm glad to be here and looking forward to unpacking meditation and everything it's about. 28 00:02:35.159 --> 00:02:37.719 So yeah, I think you've got your work cut out for you here, 29 00:02:37.800 --> 00:02:42.120 but looking forward to where it takes us. So I guess I need 30 00:02:42.159 --> 00:02:44.560 to call out the elephant in the room, right, what is Karen doing 31 00:02:44.599 --> 00:02:52.840 wrong? Nice absolutely a great place to start. So meditation, there's thousands 32 00:02:52.919 --> 00:02:57.240 of different techniques and so many different approaches to it. So we can turn 33 00:02:57.280 --> 00:03:00.400 on an app or look at our phone, and there's so many different ways 34 00:03:00.439 --> 00:03:06.879 to meditate. There's body scanning, there's observing the breath, there's using a 35 00:03:06.919 --> 00:03:13.199 mantra, there's visualization. Every specific kind of meditation will have different side effects 36 00:03:13.199 --> 00:03:17.199 and different characteristics for that specific practice. The effect may be a little different 37 00:03:17.319 --> 00:03:23.479 depending on the person and depending on the specific technique, but generally speaking, 38 00:03:23.800 --> 00:03:29.400 the aim of meditation is to facilitate greater, more expansive and the depth of 39 00:03:29.439 --> 00:03:34.919 your own awareness. Whether that leads to stillness. Many meditation practices are aimed 40 00:03:34.919 --> 00:03:40.280 at stillness. Other meditation practices are aimed at a kind of non ordinary insight 41 00:03:40.560 --> 00:03:44.680 into the nature of mind, into the nature of the body, and into 42 00:03:44.680 --> 00:03:49.520 the nature of experience. So when you pick up a meditation practice, you 43 00:03:49.599 --> 00:03:53.520 have the instructions, and sometimes the instructions are, in my opinion, a 44 00:03:53.560 --> 00:03:55.879 little they can kind of put you on the wrong foot because you end up 45 00:03:55.919 --> 00:04:00.240 starting with a very major expectation. So let's say you go to a yoga 46 00:04:00.280 --> 00:04:03.919 studio and you learn meditation, and the meditation instructor says, or the yoga 47 00:04:03.919 --> 00:04:08.800 instructor says, Okay, now we're not gonna think about anything. Okay, 48 00:04:08.879 --> 00:04:13.800 you're you're just you're gonna stop all thinking with this mantra. The likelihood of 49 00:04:13.879 --> 00:04:18.160 anyone being able to do that their first time meditating or even their fiftieth time 50 00:04:18.199 --> 00:04:24.839 meditating is just drastically low, not gonna happen, right, So to have 51 00:04:25.079 --> 00:04:28.079 that, it's like telling someone not to think about a red truck. Exactly, 52 00:04:28.120 --> 00:04:29.879 the first thing you do is think of a red truck. I've been 53 00:04:29.920 --> 00:04:31.439 meditating for twelve years, and as soon as you said think about a red 54 00:04:31.480 --> 00:04:34.439 truck, I started thinking about a red truck. So it's yes, the 55 00:04:34.519 --> 00:04:38.920 power exactly, this is this is the nature of the mind here, right, 56 00:04:39.839 --> 00:04:46.839 So meditation is not not All meditations are aimed at stopping thought. If 57 00:04:46.920 --> 00:04:51.800 thought disappears, if thought vanishes in the process of meditation, in the process 58 00:04:51.879 --> 00:04:59.519 of your awareness becoming less distracted and more prominent in the forefront of your consciousness, 59 00:04:59.560 --> 00:05:01.720 and you're experience, if thoughts end up on the periphery and they disappear 60 00:05:01.759 --> 00:05:06.800 as a result of that. That's a much more natural and easier approach to 61 00:05:06.879 --> 00:05:11.759 meditation than if I tell you to stop thinking. I put a goal before 62 00:05:11.800 --> 00:05:16.279 you, and suddenly the whole session you're trying to make something impossible happen. 63 00:05:16.600 --> 00:05:24.000 So you get a meditation technique like observe your breath and you're told to stop 64 00:05:24.040 --> 00:05:28.759 thinking. You're told to use a lot of effort to stay with the meditation 65 00:05:28.839 --> 00:05:31.680 object. This is these are all this is all recipe for just tension. 66 00:05:33.600 --> 00:05:39.600 Yes, this is my recipe. These are all the ingredients for a headache, 67 00:05:39.920 --> 00:05:43.439 right, especially for people that have Type A personalities and they really follow 68 00:05:43.480 --> 00:05:46.519 the instructions and they're like, well, he said, I'm not supposed to 69 00:05:46.519 --> 00:05:51.040 think about it, So on that kind of line about the thoughts, you 70 00:05:51.040 --> 00:05:54.639 know, if you're not just in theory, if you're not supposed to have 71 00:05:54.680 --> 00:05:56.959 a thought, and then there you're focusing on your breath, and so I'll 72 00:05:57.040 --> 00:05:59.600 kind of get to focusing on my breath and I'm like, but then I'm 73 00:05:59.600 --> 00:06:02.079 thinking my breath. That's a thought? Am I doing this right? So 74 00:06:02.319 --> 00:06:04.759 is that a thought when you're thinking about your breath or does that not count 75 00:06:04.800 --> 00:06:11.680 as a thought. Well, if you're thinking about your breath. That is 76 00:06:12.040 --> 00:06:15.959 proliferation of thought. You're judging the breath. Oh, Am I breathing correctly? 77 00:06:16.040 --> 00:06:19.680 Am I breathing too deep? Am I breathing too shallow? In meditation, 78 00:06:20.560 --> 00:06:26.560 we're feeling and noticing things as they are. That's where the real relaxation 79 00:06:26.879 --> 00:06:32.199 and the real opening comes from. You're not actually trying to change anything about 80 00:06:32.279 --> 00:06:38.079 your experience. There are meditations that are geared at that, but in the 81 00:06:38.120 --> 00:06:41.360 way that I was trained, you really let the breath be as it is. 82 00:06:41.720 --> 00:06:44.839 You let the meditation object be as it is. You let your thoughts 83 00:06:44.879 --> 00:06:46.639 and your body completely be as it is, because the whole point is to 84 00:06:46.680 --> 00:06:49.120 get out of the way, to get the ego out of the way, 85 00:06:49.199 --> 00:06:53.319 to get the sense of self out of the way, because that is what 86 00:06:53.480 --> 00:06:59.480 is obstructing the unfolding of stillness and the process of meditation in of itself. 87 00:07:00.079 --> 00:07:02.920 So this whole thing about trying to make the mind stop with effort and trying 88 00:07:02.920 --> 00:07:09.639 to control the meditation, that trying in of itself, that very movement in 89 00:07:09.680 --> 00:07:15.560 the mind of effort and trying is what stimulates and causes turbulence in the waters 90 00:07:15.600 --> 00:07:19.240 of the mind. If you just pull volition out and completely surrender. You'll 91 00:07:19.240 --> 00:07:24.120 find that a natural stillness begins to emerge, and these waters in the mind 92 00:07:24.600 --> 00:07:28.920 gradually begin to calm. It's like if you were to imagine a glass bottle, 93 00:07:29.000 --> 00:07:31.639 a width of water and some sediment, dirt, sand at the bottom, 94 00:07:31.879 --> 00:07:34.959 and you shake up the water. You shake it up. Now there's 95 00:07:34.959 --> 00:07:40.079 sediment, there's sand all throughout the bottle. You can't see clearly at all 96 00:07:40.319 --> 00:07:44.319 through the bottle of water. So when you meditate, essentially you just using 97 00:07:45.120 --> 00:07:49.839 the bottle down and you're leaving it there, and in time the sediment settles 98 00:07:49.879 --> 00:07:54.800 to the bottom and the water is very clear, you can see right through 99 00:07:54.839 --> 00:07:59.639 it. It's like that in meditation and in life generally. Oftentimes there's too 100 00:07:59.720 --> 00:08:01.199 much. There's just too much going on. There's too much going on in 101 00:08:01.199 --> 00:08:03.920 the mind, there's too much going on in life. There's too much going 102 00:08:03.920 --> 00:08:07.959 on in our body and our emotions. There's just so much happening all the 103 00:08:09.000 --> 00:08:13.360 time. So the mind is very it's full of distractions, and it's not 104 00:08:13.639 --> 00:08:18.800 can't see things so clearly, can't see itself so clearly. When you meditate, 105 00:08:18.839 --> 00:08:22.639 you set that bottle down, things settle suddenly, the answers to your 106 00:08:22.680 --> 00:08:28.319 problems can arise. Suddenly a angle on a situation becomes very apparent, even 107 00:08:28.360 --> 00:08:31.279 though it had been that way the whole time, because now the mind has 108 00:08:31.320 --> 00:08:35.519 become clear, the mind has come to calm, the mind able to see 109 00:08:35.759 --> 00:08:39.960 things as they are. That's a great way of putting it. And the 110 00:08:39.000 --> 00:08:43.159 thing that really strikes me the most about all that is that, Karen, 111 00:08:43.200 --> 00:08:48.240 it's not your fault to someone else's. I'm just thinking, I want to 112 00:08:48.279 --> 00:08:52.759 teach it that says, don't shake the bottle. Well, no, it 113 00:08:52.039 --> 00:08:56.879 is astounding what meditation will do it. Most people know that I do meditate 114 00:08:56.960 --> 00:09:01.759 every morning and it really sets my day in a perfect manner. And people 115 00:09:01.799 --> 00:09:05.679 know that if I don't meditate, they know it. Everyone knows it. 116 00:09:07.000 --> 00:09:09.679 But how long does it take to get to that point? Because you know, 117 00:09:11.000 --> 00:09:13.080 I try and it gets stressed out and I'm like, well, this 118 00:09:13.159 --> 00:09:15.679 is taking time away from stuff that I have to get done because I have 119 00:09:15.759 --> 00:09:18.279 a lot on my plate these days, you know, So how long does 120 00:09:18.320 --> 00:09:20.679 it take? I mean, I guess everyone's different, and that's not something 121 00:09:20.679 --> 00:09:24.440 you can answer specifically, but in general kind of time frame can I look 122 00:09:24.480 --> 00:09:28.120 at that I have to it could be immediate. It depends. Yes. 123 00:09:28.639 --> 00:09:31.840 So the idea when you said how long does it take? When you ask 124 00:09:31.919 --> 00:09:37.799 the question how long does it take, you're immediately in time, You're immediately 125 00:09:37.840 --> 00:09:41.480 in time, and you immediately have an expectation and you have a goal. 126 00:09:41.799 --> 00:09:43.960 Right, But if you could release that goal, if you could release the 127 00:09:45.000 --> 00:09:48.279 expectation, and if you could release time, really release yourself and give yourself 128 00:09:48.320 --> 00:09:54.080 permission to completely be as you are, period, you'd be surprised how fast 129 00:09:54.399 --> 00:10:00.440 awareness and stillness can really dn because it's the inherent nature of the This is 130 00:10:00.440 --> 00:10:03.320 the thing about meditation. We may feel and are under the impression that we're 131 00:10:03.440 --> 00:10:09.120 adding something onto the mind, like we're doing the meditation, and then stillness 132 00:10:09.200 --> 00:10:11.759 it's like a it's like an accessory that gets added onto our brain or something 133 00:10:11.759 --> 00:10:18.279 that's not actually not what's happening. What's happening is that you're you're settling down, 134 00:10:18.320 --> 00:10:22.879 you're letting go, and this natural stillness, this natural awareness that is 135 00:10:22.919 --> 00:10:28.039 a more fundamental aspect of consciousness begins to emerge and is recognized you're not actually 136 00:10:28.120 --> 00:10:33.639 getting something, it's a deeper part of what you are begins to come to 137 00:10:33.720 --> 00:10:37.759 the forefront. Begins to surface. And the reason that that has not surfaced 138 00:10:37.840 --> 00:10:41.080 yet, or the reason that it has not been experienced yet, is because 139 00:10:41.080 --> 00:10:46.200 the sense of self and the attachment to thinking and experience is in the way. 140 00:10:46.440 --> 00:10:48.200 So, like Will was saying, if he doesn't meditate, it's it's 141 00:10:48.320 --> 00:10:52.559 ugly. And my question is, and I see it, I mean I 142 00:10:52.600 --> 00:10:56.000 have seen it. It is true. But how does spending ten minutes not 143 00:10:56.080 --> 00:10:58.960 thinking or you know, how does that help you? Like? What does 144 00:11:00.120 --> 00:11:03.080 that? How does that benefit you? Because after that ten minutes, you 145 00:11:03.120 --> 00:11:05.960 know, you get all jumbled back up again? So how does that? 146 00:11:07.440 --> 00:11:11.080 What is it that makes such a profound impact on him? How often do 147 00:11:11.120 --> 00:11:16.159 you give your self permission to not do anything? Me? Zero? Never? 148 00:11:16.879 --> 00:11:22.480 And how often do you give yourself permission to be with yourself and just 149 00:11:22.879 --> 00:11:24.639 be as you are? Yeah, I have a kid, so that's really 150 00:11:24.720 --> 00:11:30.639 tough, you know, between work and school and family, and I kind 151 00:11:30.679 --> 00:11:33.360 of tend to go to the wayside. So considering that quite busy, you 152 00:11:33.360 --> 00:11:35.720 have a lot of things to take care of all the time, is it 153 00:11:35.840 --> 00:11:41.279 possible, Is it possible that ten minutes alone with yourself, no pressure to 154 00:11:41.320 --> 00:11:46.840 do anything, no pressure to get anywhere, no urge to have to become 155 00:11:46.919 --> 00:11:54.840 anything for ten minutes might have some benefit, yes, I mean ideally yes, 156 00:11:54.120 --> 00:11:56.200 But that's where I say, that's kind of where I get stressed, 157 00:11:56.200 --> 00:11:58.679 because you know, sometimes there is so much to do, and I feel 158 00:11:58.679 --> 00:12:01.399 like if I take those ten minutes, then I'm just going to be up 159 00:12:01.480 --> 00:12:07.200 later or you having to work faster or something to get that stuff. And 160 00:12:07.200 --> 00:12:09.720 I know ten minutes doesn't seem like that much, but you should see what 161 00:12:09.759 --> 00:12:11.919 I can do in ten minutes. Well, look at it this way. 162 00:12:11.960 --> 00:12:15.960 I know a lot of offices now are saying that they're requiring you to take 163 00:12:16.039 --> 00:12:20.399 a ten minute break every couple of hours because they found that when you do 164 00:12:20.519 --> 00:12:24.480 take that minute to take a break, it actually makes you more productive, 165 00:12:24.559 --> 00:12:28.519 not less productive, because it clarifies you. So I know in the office 166 00:12:28.519 --> 00:12:33.159 myself, I do try to take a break every couple of hours or have 167 00:12:33.279 --> 00:12:35.960 my team take a break every couple of hours, because they get more done 168 00:12:37.200 --> 00:12:41.519 because you're thinking more clearly, because you have been able to reset your system 169 00:12:41.799 --> 00:12:46.200 rather than work work work work work, and then your mind starts getting to 170 00:12:46.240 --> 00:12:48.759 the point where you're not as productive, you're not as creative. So I 171 00:12:48.799 --> 00:12:52.120 would assume it's along the same lines. And the reason why it works for 172 00:12:52.159 --> 00:12:58.399 me is because I can start the day in a place where I am living 173 00:12:58.600 --> 00:13:03.320 in. I don't want to say peace or serenity, because life is not 174 00:13:03.440 --> 00:13:05.159 that, but at least it gets me to the point where I start from 175 00:13:05.159 --> 00:13:11.000 that place. And then it also allows me to look at or approach life 176 00:13:11.279 --> 00:13:16.679 from a perspective of gratitude and appreciation, which then makes me more patient and 177 00:13:16.840 --> 00:13:22.559 more understanding of not just my failings or my stresses, but other people's as 178 00:13:22.559 --> 00:13:24.399 well, If that makes sense. So I guess for me, it's kind 179 00:13:24.440 --> 00:13:28.639 of the challenge is getting to the point where I can take that break, 180 00:13:28.960 --> 00:13:33.840 because like even as a kid, high school, college, I will stay 181 00:13:33.960 --> 00:13:37.159 up until four or five in the morning finishing a report, as opposed to 182 00:13:37.360 --> 00:13:39.480 I'm going to go to bed at ten and then I'll just get up earlier 183 00:13:39.639 --> 00:13:43.279 because what if I can't finish, you know what if something happens, so 184 00:13:43.360 --> 00:13:48.679 I will push through. So I think that's my weird self mantra, push 185 00:13:48.759 --> 00:13:52.919 through, you know, get it done. So for me to take that 186 00:13:52.960 --> 00:13:54.120 break, like you're saying, you know the employees will take a break and 187 00:13:54.159 --> 00:13:56.480 then come back clearer. If I was to take that break, I would 188 00:13:56.519 --> 00:13:58.600 be the whole time thinking about what am I going to be able to do 189 00:13:58.639 --> 00:14:03.039 to get thing done? So I just I guess I just don't know how 190 00:14:03.799 --> 00:14:05.799 to do that. That's what I need help with, well, among other 191 00:14:05.840 --> 00:14:09.679 things. Yeah, I think it's a shift in mindset. I mean, 192 00:14:09.679 --> 00:14:13.360 it's only going to happen when you shift your mindset where you give yourself permission, 193 00:14:13.399 --> 00:14:16.960 knowing that if you do give yourself that permission, it's going to be 194 00:14:16.960 --> 00:14:18.519 better, You're going to do more, You're gonna be able to accomplish more. 195 00:14:18.960 --> 00:14:22.080 Rather than seeing if I do this, I'm not gonna be able to 196 00:14:22.080 --> 00:14:26.080 get everything finished. Well, maybe it's time to think the opposite, you 197 00:14:26.120 --> 00:14:28.919 know. I see it like this. A lot of people say, I 198 00:14:28.960 --> 00:14:31.399 don't have time to editate. If you value your life and your mind and 199 00:14:31.440 --> 00:14:37.279 your heart, make time. So you do have a million things to do 200 00:14:37.679 --> 00:14:41.919 every day, that's a given. But this is a commitment to yourself. 201 00:14:41.320 --> 00:14:45.039 This is a commitment to your own mind, to your own heart, and 202 00:14:45.159 --> 00:14:50.960 to the deepest aspect of your life, which for many of us is spirituality. 203 00:14:52.120 --> 00:14:56.159 Is our spirituality. To honor that and to sit down with that and 204 00:14:56.200 --> 00:15:01.919 to dedicate ten minutes to that every day. It's like soul times. It's 205 00:15:01.000 --> 00:15:07.559 just you alone with the universe, with whatever, with yourself and surrendering the 206 00:15:07.720 --> 00:15:13.240 commitment is more important than the initial results. The actual sitting down to say 207 00:15:13.440 --> 00:15:16.279 yes, I'm doing this for me. That's more important than whatever it is 208 00:15:16.320 --> 00:15:20.960 that comes up in the meditation, because you know, as high achievers, 209 00:15:20.000 --> 00:15:24.039 as even as mothers, there's so much that we have to do, and 210 00:15:24.080 --> 00:15:26.720 there's so much that so much of us that we have to give to other 211 00:15:26.759 --> 00:15:28.679 people. But this is really a gift to yourself, and how often do 212 00:15:28.720 --> 00:15:33.639 you give yourself that? So, yeah, all great, great points. 213 00:15:35.120 --> 00:15:39.159 So we're right around the fifteen minute mark or so in this interview, and 214 00:15:39.240 --> 00:15:41.399 we've been talking a lot about meditations and how to do it and how not 215 00:15:41.440 --> 00:15:43.840 to do it and all that kind of stuff. I do at some point 216 00:15:43.919 --> 00:15:50.799 want to move into more esoteric topics that bring the meditation right where meditation can 217 00:15:50.840 --> 00:15:54.960 take someone within the metaphysical world, because we have a lot to talk about 218 00:15:54.960 --> 00:15:58.440 in that sense. But I do have to ask I know that personally, 219 00:15:58.480 --> 00:16:03.639 I know of several different meditation techniques. Right. There's a silver mind control, 220 00:16:03.679 --> 00:16:06.679 which is meant to be more about controlling your own mind. There is 221 00:16:07.399 --> 00:16:10.360 the stuff that you see on calm on the calm app in the headspace where 222 00:16:10.360 --> 00:16:12.559 it is just silent, focus on the breath, that kind of thing. 223 00:16:12.679 --> 00:16:18.840 Then you have guided meditation, like a safe place that you guide yourself along 224 00:16:18.879 --> 00:16:25.639 with music to feel yourself visualize yourself in a very safe, comfortable place. 225 00:16:25.840 --> 00:16:30.440 And I've also heard of what is that transcendental meditation where you actually take a 226 00:16:30.679 --> 00:16:34.039 sound right, a mantra, and you just repeat that over and over and 227 00:16:34.039 --> 00:16:37.480 over again. You focus on that the whole time you're meditating. So what 228 00:16:37.759 --> 00:16:41.759 is when I introduce to you as as someone who was very well burst in 229 00:16:42.039 --> 00:16:48.480 Buddhist meditation, I'm curious because when you think of Buddhist meditation or Buddhist monks, 230 00:16:48.480 --> 00:16:51.080 you think about the chance right, oh, that kind of stuff. 231 00:16:51.120 --> 00:16:55.279 So is that what Buddhist meditation is or is it something that we're not yet 232 00:16:55.440 --> 00:16:59.480 conscious of for talking about depends on the school of Buddhism. Other three main 233 00:16:59.519 --> 00:17:06.400 schools Tarravada which is predominantly Southeast Asian Buddhism, Mahayana which is China, Korea, 234 00:17:06.519 --> 00:17:11.640 Japan, and Vadriyana Buddhism, which is Tibet Buddhism. So these three 235 00:17:11.759 --> 00:17:17.279 main schools of Buddhism gestated in different periods and history and in different regions, 236 00:17:17.519 --> 00:17:22.839 and so they practice meditation and approach the path and enlightenment a bit differently. 237 00:17:22.079 --> 00:17:27.559 So in my tradition, Taravada, that's the oldest remaining tradition of Buddhism, 238 00:17:27.680 --> 00:17:32.319 they do make a use of mantra, but not in the same way that, 239 00:17:32.440 --> 00:17:36.559 for example, the Tibet tradition does. So. Within my tradition, 240 00:17:36.799 --> 00:17:42.119 meditation is divided into two which is one is called samatat, which means calmness 241 00:17:42.200 --> 00:17:47.839 or tranquility. All those practices, there's many objects for those practices. Breathing 242 00:17:47.960 --> 00:17:51.640 is one of them, Visualizing your body as a skeleton as another. Using 243 00:17:51.680 --> 00:17:56.240 a visualized light within the body is another. The aim of all those practices 244 00:17:56.440 --> 00:18:00.960 is stillness, purification of mind through stillness, and eventually some very deep states 245 00:18:02.000 --> 00:18:06.319 of meditation called samadi or jana in our tradition. The other side of the 246 00:18:06.359 --> 00:18:11.039 practice is with a purified mind, with a refined consciousness. Awareness in the 247 00:18:11.079 --> 00:18:17.960 mind is able to see reality in a way that is not normally accessible to 248 00:18:18.759 --> 00:18:22.079 ordinary consciousness. Like, all right, now we're getting into it. Yeah, 249 00:18:22.119 --> 00:18:26.160 exactly. So what's an example of that, right, So in the 250 00:18:26.240 --> 00:18:32.000 Buddhist Canada, there's a word called the rupa kalapa, which means a form 251 00:18:32.160 --> 00:18:36.279 particle. So there's a way to meditate so deeply to an extent that the 252 00:18:36.359 --> 00:18:40.920 literal particles that make up form, that make up feeling, that make up 253 00:18:41.279 --> 00:18:48.599 mental phenomenon, memories, those particles, those fundamental basises are accessible directly to 254 00:18:48.680 --> 00:18:51.240 the mind. So normally, right now, I sit down, I look 255 00:18:51.279 --> 00:18:53.319 at a thought, or a thought arises, my awareness shines on it, 256 00:18:53.480 --> 00:18:56.599 and you see an image, a vague image in the mind's eye. So 257 00:18:56.680 --> 00:19:00.880 imagine that you were able to see what that image is actually made out of 258 00:19:02.160 --> 00:19:07.200 at a very deep, fundamental level. And this isn't like imaginary stuff. 259 00:19:07.519 --> 00:19:11.720 It's just like actual or deep insight into the nature of reality. So Buddhist 260 00:19:11.759 --> 00:19:17.000 meditation is divided to those two I'd say those two groups. One is for 261 00:19:17.079 --> 00:19:22.680 the purification and the powering up find to very very deep levels of awareness, 262 00:19:22.680 --> 00:19:26.880 and the other is actually directing that awareness to understand and see reality at a 263 00:19:26.920 --> 00:19:30.799 more fundamental level. And based on that insight, based on that seeing, 264 00:19:30.960 --> 00:19:37.400 there are certain wisdoms, certain key understandings about what we are that begin to 265 00:19:37.880 --> 00:19:42.119 those understandings can be liberating, freeing. So yeah, now we're getting into 266 00:19:42.160 --> 00:19:45.960 the nitty of it. Right. So we've talked to a lot of people 267 00:19:45.279 --> 00:19:48.960 and a lot of different things, a lot of different modalities, and they're 268 00:19:48.000 --> 00:19:52.240 all kind of saying the same thing. What I'm hearing you say is that 269 00:19:52.279 --> 00:20:00.359 there is a version of Buddhist meditation that unlocks the mysteries of reality of our 270 00:20:00.440 --> 00:20:03.680 existence. How can I say this? How do you know? Right? 271 00:20:03.799 --> 00:20:07.000 How how is it? It could could be? And I asked this question 272 00:20:07.039 --> 00:20:11.319 almost every time, Right, could it just be your mind being its creative 273 00:20:11.440 --> 00:20:15.400 self? Right? Our minds are incredibly unbelievably creative, so you hear. 274 00:20:15.720 --> 00:20:19.480 And it's more in hindu than it is in Hinduism. It is in Buddhism. 275 00:20:19.559 --> 00:20:23.799 But things like yogis who are able to levitate, for example, or 276 00:20:23.880 --> 00:20:30.319 who are do all these different miracles simply because of how deeply they can meditate 277 00:20:30.400 --> 00:20:34.519 and really control every molecule in their bodies. I've never experienced it. I've 278 00:20:34.519 --> 00:20:38.519 never seen it. I've never heard of anyone who has. I've read books 279 00:20:38.519 --> 00:20:44.240 about it and I'm incredibly intrigued about them. But so, first, have 280 00:20:44.640 --> 00:20:48.599 you experienced anything miraculous like that? And two, if you have or haven't, 281 00:20:48.799 --> 00:20:53.960 when you're when you're meditating and looking into the qualities of existence, how 282 00:20:53.960 --> 00:20:59.160 do you know it's not just your mind being creative and coming up with different 283 00:20:59.279 --> 00:21:03.240 ideas. So in meditation, and at least in the way that I approach 284 00:21:03.759 --> 00:21:11.559 spiritual practice, it's much more like a practice and an actual scientific approach in 285 00:21:11.599 --> 00:21:15.759 the sense that you have to experience a thing repeated times. So it's not 286 00:21:15.880 --> 00:21:18.839 like you're sitting down in meditation then you have a vision about something and you 287 00:21:18.920 --> 00:21:26.000 automatically believe it to be true. We're not working with fleeting images and visions 288 00:21:26.000 --> 00:21:30.440 in the mind and saying that these are indicators of what reality is about. 289 00:21:30.680 --> 00:21:37.279 But here's an example of what may convince you that your body is indeed made 290 00:21:37.359 --> 00:21:42.359 of sub atomic particles, these bright subatomic particles that are reappearing and disappearing very 291 00:21:42.440 --> 00:21:48.160 quickly. Let's say you're meditation, you've done a retreat for a while forty 292 00:21:48.240 --> 00:21:51.359 days, thirty days, and you're scanning through the body. You're feeling the 293 00:21:51.359 --> 00:21:55.960 body in sections, and suddenly as clear as day as clear as this moment, 294 00:21:56.000 --> 00:22:00.319 looking at me, having this conversation, your consciousness shifts, and your 295 00:22:00.480 --> 00:22:07.759 entire body starts vibrating, rapidly, extremely vibrations everywhere, the whole room starts 296 00:22:07.839 --> 00:22:11.839 vibrating, and what normally was felt as your forehead, or what normally was 297 00:22:11.880 --> 00:22:17.079 felt as a particular part of your body is felt as an oscillating wave of 298 00:22:17.160 --> 00:22:23.880 sensations and particles, and those waves and sensations are directly perceivable lights all over 299 00:22:23.920 --> 00:22:27.680 the place. It's one thing when this is happening as a mental image. 300 00:22:29.000 --> 00:22:33.599 It's one thing if you're having a vision about something. It's another thing when 301 00:22:33.720 --> 00:22:38.519 literally the actual perception of your reality fundamentally shifts. It's the same thing as 302 00:22:38.519 --> 00:22:41.960 having and out of body experience. And that's something that we could get into. 303 00:22:42.200 --> 00:22:48.880 When you've had twenty or forty out of body experiences and you've experienced a 304 00:22:48.000 --> 00:22:52.839 vibrational state and the separation of the non physical body from the physical body, 305 00:22:52.880 --> 00:22:57.200 what that process entails to me at this point, it doesn't matter the texts 306 00:22:57.240 --> 00:23:02.359 say about those things. It doesn't matter if a spiritual teacher comes and tells 307 00:23:02.359 --> 00:23:07.799 me that that's demonic work or that's a wayward path, or that's just happening 308 00:23:07.839 --> 00:23:12.039 in your imagination. It's your imagination. Couldn't possibly create something of that that 309 00:23:12.200 --> 00:23:18.759 level of magnitude to literally riveting and shaking your entire perception to its core. 310 00:23:18.839 --> 00:23:23.799 It's it's so radical that I couldn't attribute it to a visionary thought or something 311 00:23:23.839 --> 00:23:30.000 that is happening in the imagination. But that doesn't make me come to the 312 00:23:30.160 --> 00:23:36.279 conclusion that every single thing that happens in meditation is one hundred percent real or 313 00:23:36.279 --> 00:23:41.000 one hundred percent accurate. Just because a vision or an experience comes up doesn't 314 00:23:41.039 --> 00:23:45.400 mean that that's indicative or a justification for some view that you have about about 315 00:23:45.440 --> 00:23:49.039 reality. You have to see things, or in my opinion, I take 316 00:23:49.079 --> 00:23:55.119 the experience as it is. I don't even try to interpret a lot of 317 00:23:55.160 --> 00:23:59.039 the experiences that I have because my interpretation can be very faulty. That's the 318 00:23:59.079 --> 00:24:04.720 conceptual mind at that point, adding reasons and atting information to specific experience, 319 00:24:04.839 --> 00:24:10.839 and I think that inferences are very very different than direct experience itself. Now, 320 00:24:10.880 --> 00:24:14.039 a lot of those things that you're talking about, we've heard people talk 321 00:24:14.319 --> 00:24:18.559 about when they take certain plant medicines, for example, like DMT or all 322 00:24:18.599 --> 00:24:23.039 the pot right, all these different things that they experienced, different versions of 323 00:24:23.119 --> 00:24:27.440 reality, and it could or maybe could not be just chemicals firing in someone's 324 00:24:27.440 --> 00:24:33.839 brain or something like that. But you're talking about things that would be amazing 325 00:24:33.880 --> 00:24:37.400 to experience without having to take any kind of drug to make that happen. 326 00:24:37.839 --> 00:24:42.960 So how does someone go about meditating that deeply that you start feeling your forehead 327 00:24:44.160 --> 00:24:45.519 undulate? Because I really want to feel that, Like, I really want 328 00:24:45.519 --> 00:24:48.680 to feel those vibrations badly, and I really want to ask her project really 329 00:24:48.680 --> 00:24:53.640 badly. We had someone on the show talking about her initial experiences and when 330 00:24:53.720 --> 00:24:57.920 it first started, it was just as you said, massive vibrations but going 331 00:24:59.000 --> 00:25:02.960 up and down her spine. That's how it started. And then it ended 332 00:25:03.039 --> 00:25:07.240 up being that she was getting ready to leave her body, and she did 333 00:25:07.240 --> 00:25:10.880 that several times, and you mentioned going on your body thirty to forty times. 334 00:25:11.000 --> 00:25:17.200 I would like to do it once. We need to take a quick 335 00:25:17.200 --> 00:25:25.279 break, but we'll be right back with more amazing conversation on the skeptic metaphysicians, 336 00:25:27.599 --> 00:25:34.240 how could we possibly find a way to get us to have our foreheads 337 00:25:34.240 --> 00:25:41.799 become undulating, like to become part of the mysteries because I really really want 338 00:25:41.839 --> 00:25:47.319 to experience that. I really want to feel something strange and unexpected and unexplainable. 339 00:25:47.640 --> 00:25:51.160 So you're the expert. How can someone go about doing that? Does 340 00:25:51.240 --> 00:25:52.880 it take years and years and years and years and years of meditation or can 341 00:25:52.920 --> 00:25:56.680 you just press a button to be done. I think when it comes to 342 00:25:57.079 --> 00:26:06.240 meditation, particularly in Buddhism, the super normal powers are not the end goal, 343 00:26:06.400 --> 00:26:08.680 right, Yeah, they could be side effects of the practice. If 344 00:26:08.680 --> 00:26:15.000 you wanted to have experiences of a mystical and supernatural nature, you'd want to 345 00:26:15.039 --> 00:26:19.839 explore out of body experiences, astral projection, lucid dreaming. That is really 346 00:26:21.200 --> 00:26:23.839 the gateway for all of that, because in meditation, what you're doing is 347 00:26:23.880 --> 00:26:30.839 really allowing the mind to come to stand still, allowing awareness to emerge. 348 00:26:32.160 --> 00:26:37.920 There can be a fundamental shift in your perception that happens in meditation that's permanent 349 00:26:37.079 --> 00:26:41.559 that I found you don't get from lucid dreaming and out of body experiences. 350 00:26:41.599 --> 00:26:47.640 I think that's a good place to go. And out of body experiences is 351 00:26:47.880 --> 00:26:52.240 those types of things you're interested in will happen. They may not necessarily happen 352 00:26:52.319 --> 00:26:59.640 in meditation. What what happens in meditation is a radical awakening of consciousness, 353 00:26:59.640 --> 00:27:03.920 a kind of moment to moment lived presence begins to permeate your life. And 354 00:27:03.960 --> 00:27:07.279 there's quite a bit of freedom, actually, an immense amount of freedom that 355 00:27:07.319 --> 00:27:14.839 comes from shifting from being a person in time, from identifying as a person 356 00:27:14.880 --> 00:27:18.359 in time, from identifying as a physical body as this particular incarnation, to 357 00:27:18.960 --> 00:27:26.400 being and existing at everything. That's a huge leap. That's what meditation, 358 00:27:26.640 --> 00:27:30.079 That's what meditation leads to. It leads to an actual shift in perception and 359 00:27:30.119 --> 00:27:37.200 a fundamental change in consciousness. Whereas out of body experiences and supernormal abilities, 360 00:27:37.279 --> 00:27:41.680 mystical experiences, those are experiences that come and go, so they happen, 361 00:27:41.839 --> 00:27:48.119 they happen in time. They lead to some incredible understandings, right because you 362 00:27:48.119 --> 00:27:52.160 can encounter spirits, you can encounter departed relatives, you can encounter everything in 363 00:27:52.319 --> 00:27:56.319 a or z of supernatural in the out of body study. But what I 364 00:27:56.359 --> 00:28:00.200 have not found the out of body state able to do? What I have 365 00:28:00.279 --> 00:28:03.359 not found psychedelics able to do. What I have not found anything else able 366 00:28:03.400 --> 00:28:08.920 to do lead to a radical and permanent, ongoing lived awakening. Wait, 367 00:28:10.039 --> 00:28:15.920 that's what meditation does so. If seeing auras and having profound abilities as a 368 00:28:15.960 --> 00:28:21.559 part of that particular awakening for you, then that becomes your lived daily experience. 369 00:28:21.559 --> 00:28:23.680 If it's not, it could be something else. For me, particularly, 370 00:28:23.759 --> 00:28:29.680 I don't have the ability to see auras or desartubles, past lives or 371 00:28:29.799 --> 00:28:32.039 will If I was hanging out with you in a room, I wouldn't see 372 00:28:32.079 --> 00:28:34.359 your thoughts like floating around your head because that's not a part. That's not 373 00:28:34.400 --> 00:28:37.720 a part of what the unfolding was for me, right. But if I 374 00:28:37.759 --> 00:28:41.920 was in the out of body state, I could see things that I normally 375 00:28:42.000 --> 00:28:47.640 could not in this physical state, in this physical body. But the real 376 00:28:47.720 --> 00:28:52.799 freedom from meditation, in my understanding and in my unfolding, is that fundamental 377 00:28:53.240 --> 00:29:00.440 shift. You touch, you become in touch this consciousness that is not bound 378 00:29:00.440 --> 00:29:03.480 to experience, It is not bound to changes that happen in time, This 379 00:29:03.839 --> 00:29:10.000 aspect of yourself that is totally beyond becoming. It becomes very, very apparent. 380 00:29:10.279 --> 00:29:14.799 It begins to permeate the entirety of your life. That's very different than 381 00:29:14.839 --> 00:29:18.720 what happened in OBEs for me, And don't get me wrong, OBEs are 382 00:29:18.880 --> 00:29:22.839 absolutely incredible. They are ground shattering I mean, if you don't believe, 383 00:29:23.200 --> 00:29:26.440 if you're a skeptic, for example, and you don't really know if or 384 00:29:26.720 --> 00:29:30.160 you'll know at all, if there's life after death, or if it's possible 385 00:29:30.200 --> 00:29:34.640 to separate bring the physical body. I recommend out of body experiences as the 386 00:29:34.640 --> 00:29:38.480 way to prove that to yourself. Can't prove it to anyone else, right, 387 00:29:38.599 --> 00:29:41.559 unless you're an expert at this, and you can do this in a 388 00:29:41.640 --> 00:29:45.440 lab, but you can one hundred percent prove it to yourself when you've had 389 00:29:45.559 --> 00:29:51.880 twenty out of body experiences and this unbelievable separational rate happens every single time, 390 00:29:52.000 --> 00:29:55.400 and you get perceptions of things before they happen, or you dream of things 391 00:29:55.400 --> 00:29:59.599 before they happen. You see conversations in the actual dimension before they actually happen 392 00:29:59.680 --> 00:30:02.920 in real life. It doesn't matter what the priest says to me, It 393 00:30:02.920 --> 00:30:07.119 doesn't matter what the scientist says to me. I've tasted the pudding, I've 394 00:30:07.119 --> 00:30:11.279 gone to the buffet. Well, okay, you know, had the four 395 00:30:11.359 --> 00:30:15.359 course meal. When it comes to these those specific things, there's a lot 396 00:30:15.359 --> 00:30:18.240 of things that I don't know. I don't have the answers to the universe 397 00:30:18.279 --> 00:30:21.759 at all. I don't have the secrets to life, but I can say 398 00:30:21.799 --> 00:30:26.279 that the things I've experienced are the things that I've unfolded. I've repeatedly experienced 399 00:30:26.279 --> 00:30:27.880 them. You know, it's not like it's one thing. If you dream 400 00:30:27.920 --> 00:30:30.839 of something before it happens, like one time in your life, you kind 401 00:30:30.839 --> 00:30:33.839 of write it off right. Oh, it's like I can't really explain that. 402 00:30:33.880 --> 00:30:37.839 It doesn't really make any sense, and so I'm just going to push 403 00:30:37.880 --> 00:30:41.039 it out of my consciousness and just pretend that that never really happened, because 404 00:30:41.039 --> 00:30:42.519 if I kind of think about it too much, my whole reality is just 405 00:30:42.559 --> 00:30:45.720 going to start crumpling. Because to see something before it hap parassable. But 406 00:30:47.160 --> 00:30:51.480 when that happens ten times, fifteen times, you have an OBE twenty times. 407 00:30:51.519 --> 00:30:53.920 It doesn't matter what anyone says at this point. So how hard is 408 00:30:53.960 --> 00:30:56.960 it to get to the foot where you can have when you're just like, 409 00:30:56.000 --> 00:31:00.200 oh, try this, but how I mean I would love to have Honestly, 410 00:31:00.799 --> 00:31:06.359 Yeah, the the things that happened in meditation in the later years, 411 00:31:06.559 --> 00:31:11.440 it takes much more patience and much more practice for that to happen than to 412 00:31:11.519 --> 00:31:15.279 have an OBE. Having an OBE is not difficult at all. Well did 413 00:31:15.319 --> 00:31:22.359 he just called me? I the later years, what is it I met? 414 00:31:23.599 --> 00:31:26.440 I ever be like? For me, I wouldn't say that I had 415 00:31:26.480 --> 00:31:30.519 any any And this is I don't want this to discourage anyone, because if 416 00:31:30.519 --> 00:31:34.640 you have a good teacher, and if you if you're actually follow the instructions. 417 00:31:36.400 --> 00:31:38.720 Yeah, no, no, no, he said, yes, I 418 00:31:38.880 --> 00:31:47.559 heard that we have none. No rewinding and erasing that that never happened. 419 00:31:47.559 --> 00:31:52.319 Okay, yeah, some people have meditation, a lot of incredible unfolding and 420 00:31:52.440 --> 00:31:56.680 changes happened in their first month. I didn't have what I would consider that 421 00:31:56.839 --> 00:32:04.160 radical shift in perception until year seven, seven years or so of seven years 422 00:32:04.440 --> 00:32:08.039 right at that point, thousands of hours of meditating for that before that, 423 00:32:08.200 --> 00:32:14.680 actual fundamental perception of what I was changed. But for sure out of body 424 00:32:14.720 --> 00:32:17.599 experiences, coming to a place of calm, coming to a place of undiscivving, 425 00:32:17.920 --> 00:32:22.440 learning to surrender, all of that is accessible from the start, and 426 00:32:22.480 --> 00:32:27.440 even awakening and what happened what I've described is accessible earlier. It just depends 427 00:32:27.480 --> 00:32:30.119 on the person I'm saying. For me, I was very stubborn. I 428 00:32:30.119 --> 00:32:32.279 was young, I was growing up. Took seven years to really come to 429 00:32:32.480 --> 00:32:37.680 kind of surrendered flow that permeated all of life. Right, and for you 430 00:32:37.720 --> 00:32:42.079 to say to seven years, we're not talking about ten minutes a day, 431 00:32:42.279 --> 00:32:46.720 right. You've been to over thirty meditation retreats, So I'm assuming that you 432 00:32:46.880 --> 00:32:52.359 these were extended periods of time where you were in stillness to get to where 433 00:32:52.400 --> 00:32:55.880 you are now. True, But I'll make this one point. I think 434 00:32:55.920 --> 00:33:00.799 there's something This is a theory. Okay, disclaim this is a theory. 435 00:33:00.640 --> 00:33:07.599 So just like economic booms and bus stock market will rise, stock market will 436 00:33:07.680 --> 00:33:13.319 crash, There'll be changes in levels of activity and economies all over the world. 437 00:33:13.319 --> 00:33:15.960 And when there's a high period and extremely high period, there's always a 438 00:33:15.000 --> 00:33:20.880 love that follows. So what I've observed and what I'm beginning to see, 439 00:33:21.160 --> 00:33:24.799 is that for some reason, in this particular period of time that we're in, 440 00:33:25.119 --> 00:33:31.279 a lot of people with less time on the cushion are having very profound 441 00:33:31.519 --> 00:33:38.799 experiences and profound unfoldings in meditation. So that may just be attributed to the 442 00:33:38.920 --> 00:33:45.000 energy and the collective consciousness at the time where we're at in this period. 443 00:33:45.200 --> 00:33:49.039 But I'm meeting a lot of students and a lot of people are coming to 444 00:33:49.079 --> 00:33:53.839 me that after just meditating for a few months are having just baffling unfoldings and 445 00:33:53.960 --> 00:33:59.960 tending to be of the destabilizing nature. It seems that if it takes long 446 00:34:00.279 --> 00:34:05.359 for this sort of radical shift in perception and awakening to happen, that you 447 00:34:05.480 --> 00:34:08.239 have more You kind of have more to stand on. When everything starts to 448 00:34:08.280 --> 00:34:13.320 collapse and you started singing into the universe and and all of that daily, 449 00:34:13.800 --> 00:34:16.320 you have more to stand if that process took years. But if you've been 450 00:34:16.320 --> 00:34:20.840 meditating for like a few months or a year and that happens, oh, 451 00:34:21.039 --> 00:34:23.159 you're going to be begging to find someone that can help you, because it's 452 00:34:23.320 --> 00:34:30.159 very It can be very destabilizing awakening. Radical shifts and perception can be extremely 453 00:34:30.199 --> 00:34:35.320 destabilizinged destabilizing. The good thing about out of body experiences and lucid dreaming is 454 00:34:35.360 --> 00:34:38.159 that a lot of that can be limited to what happened in the out of 455 00:34:38.199 --> 00:34:43.039 body experience. Sure, some perceptions could bleed into your normal life, but 456 00:34:43.119 --> 00:34:45.119 generally speaking, you're still going to be the same person. You're still going 457 00:34:45.199 --> 00:34:50.559 to feel like you. The thing about radical, a very deep awakening is 458 00:34:50.559 --> 00:34:57.039 that sense of you permanently changes, It actually begins to dissolve, and there 459 00:34:57.039 --> 00:35:00.199 are things that there are some benefits, incredible benefits that come from that, 460 00:35:00.400 --> 00:35:05.760 but it can also be incredibly difficult. So you start your process. I 461 00:35:05.760 --> 00:35:08.760 started my process seven years ago or twelve years ago. I thought my name 462 00:35:08.800 --> 00:35:13.320 was Ryan. I really believed in all the things that Ryan wanted. I 463 00:35:13.360 --> 00:35:15.440 really believed in everything that Ryan was going to become. I had goals, 464 00:35:15.440 --> 00:35:19.760 I had dreams, dreamsuit of those things. I went for them. I 465 00:35:19.800 --> 00:35:24.159 had this vision of this guy becoming enlightened and teaching a lot of people and 466 00:35:24.199 --> 00:35:27.679 all of that, and all of that was very real, right, It 467 00:35:28.159 --> 00:35:32.239 was as solid as this book over here, so solid. All those thoughts 468 00:35:32.239 --> 00:35:36.559 that, all those ideas, they're so real, they were so real to 469 00:35:36.639 --> 00:35:40.679 me. And then something happened around the seventh year where this immaculate presence just 470 00:35:40.960 --> 00:35:46.639 came crashing into life, into consciousness, and it radically. It was like 471 00:35:46.719 --> 00:35:50.880 it changed my brain. I would go as far as to say that the 472 00:35:50.920 --> 00:35:53.280 body felt different from the inside. My sense of self, my sense of 473 00:35:53.320 --> 00:35:58.880 perception, who I thought I was changed forever, Like I could no longer 474 00:35:58.960 --> 00:36:01.199 believe that I was just riot, I can no longer believe that I was 475 00:36:01.280 --> 00:36:05.880 just a person person. I can no longer just see myself as this face, 476 00:36:06.159 --> 00:36:08.880 as this body, as this life, because consciousness had become so expanded, 477 00:36:09.199 --> 00:36:14.920 so expansive, so radically different, and it lasted for so long. 478 00:36:15.280 --> 00:36:17.800 It wasn't just like an obe that happens for fifteen minutes or thirty minutes in 479 00:36:17.840 --> 00:36:21.920 the morning morning. This radical shift, when it happened to me, lasted 480 00:36:22.000 --> 00:36:24.639 ten days. I didn't have to The amount of sleep that I needed was 481 00:36:24.679 --> 00:36:30.039 reduced. I barely needed to eat. I worked in lending, so I 482 00:36:30.079 --> 00:36:31.920 was a loan officer, and I'm just staring at it, at the computer, 483 00:36:32.000 --> 00:36:35.800 trying to do a load, trying to process an application, and it's 484 00:36:35.840 --> 00:36:38.119 like my whole left brain is not working. I'm just seeing these like words 485 00:36:38.119 --> 00:36:42.719 on the screen. I can't even function, and my body like, what 486 00:36:42.760 --> 00:36:45.280 the hell is wrong with you? Man, what's wrong with you? And 487 00:36:45.360 --> 00:36:49.400 I'm just like, you know, I'm exploding in this infinite love and like 488 00:36:49.599 --> 00:36:52.000 my heart feels connected to him and I see that he's suffering so much and 489 00:36:52.039 --> 00:36:55.280 I just love him. And it was like that for ten days. It's 490 00:36:55.360 --> 00:36:59.760 ridiculous. You're like crying, and you're crying tears of joy and tears of 491 00:36:59.800 --> 00:37:01.559 set is at the same time you're driving your car, you don't know where 492 00:37:01.559 --> 00:37:05.880 your hand ends and where the wheel begins. Everyone around you, it's all 493 00:37:05.920 --> 00:37:09.199 it's all this one movement that is not moving at the same time it demit 494 00:37:09.280 --> 00:37:14.840 makes sense, but when it's actually happening, that's this. This is not 495 00:37:15.000 --> 00:37:17.599 in my opinion, this is not as accessible as the ball treatmare through out 496 00:37:17.599 --> 00:37:22.280 of body experiences. Maybe it is, but I haven't seen it yet, 497 00:37:22.280 --> 00:37:24.960 and I haven't seen it through uh plant medicine either. So let me just 498 00:37:24.960 --> 00:37:31.239 clarify you're you are. You were experiencing that without the use of external stimuli. 499 00:37:31.519 --> 00:37:36.159 It just it was a natural You didn't you didn't take psychedelics. It 500 00:37:36.199 --> 00:37:40.360 wasn't the result of anything that you did. It just happened. Is that 501 00:37:40.360 --> 00:37:45.480 what you're saying. Okay, yes, So then people who want to have 502 00:37:45.639 --> 00:37:49.880 a spiritual awakening, you're saying things that are counterintuitive to a lot of the 503 00:37:49.880 --> 00:37:52.400 people that we've talked about. Right, everyone says the road to awakened spiritual 504 00:37:52.400 --> 00:37:58.760 awakenings is through meditation. That the act of meditating is the portal that allows 505 00:37:58.800 --> 00:38:05.960 you to do the outer body experiences or locid dreaming, or have that feeling 506 00:38:05.960 --> 00:38:10.199 of interconnectedness with everything and every one. Now I'm hearing you say that all 507 00:38:10.280 --> 00:38:16.039 that stuff is more accessible than an actual spiritual awakening through meditation, as someone 508 00:38:16.039 --> 00:38:21.920 who's been literally his entire life trying to find a way to gain spiritual awakening. 509 00:38:22.039 --> 00:38:23.559 Just when I think, yep, I mean I am so awakeman, 510 00:38:23.679 --> 00:38:29.400 I am totally woke, I find nope, I'm one hundred percent rooted in 511 00:38:29.480 --> 00:38:31.360 this three dimensional world that we're in, right, Because then I talk to 512 00:38:31.360 --> 00:38:34.800 people like you that are saying what you're saying, and I just go, 513 00:38:34.960 --> 00:38:39.239 wow, I don't even know what I'm talking about, Like I'm not awake 514 00:38:39.400 --> 00:38:45.079 in any stretch of the imagination because I don't have these feelings of interconnectedness. 515 00:38:45.159 --> 00:38:46.880 Every once in a while, I'll feel it, and it does come through 516 00:38:47.280 --> 00:38:52.079 my inner search, in my inner discovery when I go within, and most 517 00:38:52.119 --> 00:38:54.840 of the time when I'm going within is because I'm going into a very deep 518 00:38:54.880 --> 00:38:59.400 meditation that allows me to do that, but it never sustains itself. So 519 00:38:59.440 --> 00:39:00.719 for someone to say, hey, yeah, I went for ten days in 520 00:39:00.880 --> 00:39:07.440 complete love and bliss with all mankind makes me feel really jealous, first of 521 00:39:07.440 --> 00:39:13.679 all, But then my next question is how how is it. You need 522 00:39:13.719 --> 00:39:17.679 to find someone who's like you can help someone can guide someone through the process 523 00:39:17.800 --> 00:39:23.400 of achieving some sort of awakening, awakening, because I mean, there's no 524 00:39:23.519 --> 00:39:29.559 question that the world needs to wake up, right. We've gone to find 525 00:39:29.599 --> 00:39:34.519 a way for all of us to get to the point where we are spiritually 526 00:39:34.639 --> 00:39:38.119 awakening in order for changes to happen. And I do think more and more 527 00:39:38.159 --> 00:39:42.880 people are going through that. I think that's probably to your point. That's 528 00:39:42.880 --> 00:39:46.159 why there's so many people who are going through OBEs and near death experiences and 529 00:39:46.199 --> 00:39:50.840 coming back and teaching and having lucid dreams and all that kind of stuff and 530 00:39:50.880 --> 00:39:53.119 seeing auras. But I've been searching since I was in my twenties, and 531 00:39:53.159 --> 00:39:57.239 I'm a lot older than that now, and I've not been able to accomplish 532 00:39:57.320 --> 00:40:00.400 any of it. So I guess I'm asking Ryan, how can I make 533 00:40:00.440 --> 00:40:05.760 that happen. So, when it comes to meditation, a lot of it 534 00:40:05.800 --> 00:40:10.320 is goal oriented. So the aim is to get into a deep meditation. 535 00:40:10.440 --> 00:40:15.400 The aim is to get somewhere right, whether it's your happy A lot of 536 00:40:15.440 --> 00:40:17.440 people teach it this way, getting to your happy place or getting to your 537 00:40:17.440 --> 00:40:22.039 place a calm, and it's like this place in your imagination. Whatever the 538 00:40:22.199 --> 00:40:28.960 goal is in meditation, that goal, that movement and direction towards a concept, 539 00:40:29.039 --> 00:40:34.760 towards something that is supposed to happen in time, is taking awareness further 540 00:40:34.880 --> 00:40:38.159 from itself. So that experience that happened to me, I want to break 541 00:40:38.280 --> 00:40:40.800 parts of it down a little bit. I'll help you understand. I had 542 00:40:40.800 --> 00:40:45.440 been meditating for a while up to that point already, and it was aligned 543 00:40:45.480 --> 00:40:50.119 in this book by an Indian sage name Ramana Maharshi, and I was on 544 00:40:50.159 --> 00:40:53.519 a plane coming back from China and I read that line and it said liberation 545 00:40:53.840 --> 00:40:57.960 enlightenment is to know that you were never born. And I was like, 546 00:40:58.320 --> 00:41:04.679 what't I even comprehend that. It just didn't make any sense. But when 547 00:41:04.719 --> 00:41:07.639 I read those words, it was like this dead guru from one hundred years 548 00:41:07.679 --> 00:41:13.400 ago just like reached through space and time and just changed something in my brain. 549 00:41:13.639 --> 00:41:19.239 I started shaking after I read that sentence and sweating profusely, and then 550 00:41:19.280 --> 00:41:22.559 it just disappeared. So I thought, Okay, maybe it's just some weird 551 00:41:22.760 --> 00:41:25.199 occurrence. I don't know how to explain that. So I got off the 552 00:41:25.239 --> 00:41:31.119 plane and when I was driving, that's when that immaculateness hit and all of 553 00:41:31.159 --> 00:41:37.440 the bounds of what I perceived myself to be. Usually our consciousness, and 554 00:41:37.480 --> 00:41:40.760 our awareness is really limited to the physical body. We feel that this is 555 00:41:40.880 --> 00:41:47.119 us and everything else is not, but that that line is actually just a 556 00:41:47.280 --> 00:41:53.239 boundary in perception. When that boundary vanishes, the automatic that the automatic result 557 00:41:53.480 --> 00:41:58.679 is the experience of oneness or the experience of allness. So this is the 558 00:41:58.679 --> 00:42:01.519 thing about meditation, about spiritual work. A lot of it reinforces. It 559 00:42:01.599 --> 00:42:07.480 actually makes the sense of self more solid. You're pursuing something in time, 560 00:42:07.159 --> 00:42:12.360 you want to get somewhere other than here, you want to become something, 561 00:42:12.400 --> 00:42:15.519 and that's all. That's all great, that's all fine. But what it 562 00:42:15.559 --> 00:42:20.360 can do is that it actually enhances, It reinforces the sense of self. 563 00:42:20.800 --> 00:42:25.320 It reinforces the seeker that is on the path directed towards something. But this 564 00:42:25.599 --> 00:42:30.480 allness is beyond time. So if all the meditation that you're doing is for 565 00:42:30.599 --> 00:42:35.880 something to happen in time, but the true reality that I'm describing to you 566 00:42:36.039 --> 00:42:40.159 is timeless, how how are these two things reconcilable? If you're if you're 567 00:42:40.199 --> 00:42:44.440 trying to have a result, if you're trying to get to a place that 568 00:42:44.599 --> 00:42:49.360 is that is that is naturally. This is not bonds, you know, 569 00:42:49.440 --> 00:42:52.760 this is not like the street and we can just and we can just go 570 00:42:52.800 --> 00:42:59.119 there. This is a deeper and more fundamental awareness. And the striving, 571 00:42:59.199 --> 00:43:04.559 the pursuit, and all the little aspects of spirituality or a psychic powers, 572 00:43:04.880 --> 00:43:07.840 whatever it is, all of these things they make the sense of self more 573 00:43:08.159 --> 00:43:13.920 solid. And it's actually the sense of self that is the very it is 574 00:43:14.199 --> 00:43:17.559 the final door, the you that you have known your whole life, the 575 00:43:17.639 --> 00:43:22.559 you that you have built up, the you that you operate through every day, 576 00:43:22.719 --> 00:43:29.440 that is the very thing that vanishes in genuine awakening. So if the 577 00:43:29.559 --> 00:43:37.199 you is what vanishes, then all the spiritual practices that are coming from a 578 00:43:37.320 --> 00:43:43.960 sense of enhancing that you end up having can end up having the reverse effect. 579 00:43:44.199 --> 00:43:47.639 So you can do meditation for thirty years, for forty years, maybe 580 00:43:47.679 --> 00:43:53.639 even for forty lifetimes. But if the whole time you're using a very hard 581 00:43:53.639 --> 00:43:59.360 handed consciousness or very a very approach with a lot of effort, all of 582 00:43:59.400 --> 00:44:04.079 that does is strengthen the ego. It strengthens the sense of self when really 583 00:44:04.199 --> 00:44:08.119 in that moment of genuine awakening, when the all is realized, there's no 584 00:44:08.280 --> 00:44:13.159 sense of self there, Will is not going to be there. Ryan was 585 00:44:13.199 --> 00:44:15.599 not there the whole the whole thing was for seven years, I was in 586 00:44:15.599 --> 00:44:21.039 this pursuit and I wanted bliss, I wanted happiness, I wanted all this 587 00:44:21.199 --> 00:44:24.440 I wanted. I wanted the expanded consciousness. I wanted the unconditional love I 588 00:44:24.719 --> 00:44:30.440 wanted I wanted I wanted. And when that, when that presence just crashed 589 00:44:31.000 --> 00:44:37.400 and shattered everything, there was no me pursuing bliss anymore. There was no 590 00:44:37.519 --> 00:44:43.119 me pursuing happiness anymore. There was no me pursuing anything anymore because there was 591 00:44:43.119 --> 00:44:45.840 no me anymore. Right So I'm hearing you say at the end of the 592 00:44:45.920 --> 00:44:52.000 day, it all comes back to surrender. One percent, yes, one 593 00:44:52.039 --> 00:44:57.440 thousand percent, all right. Not an easy thing to achieve, right, 594 00:44:57.519 --> 00:45:01.119 It's surrendering ourselves. Surrendering our egos is of very, very, very difficult 595 00:45:01.119 --> 00:45:05.360 thing to do. And I think that's where I'm going wrong, because though 596 00:45:05.400 --> 00:45:08.719 I think I'm surrendering, I'm really not because I'm holding on to an end 597 00:45:08.800 --> 00:45:13.880 result that I'm hoping to achieve. And That's where I'm going wrong. Ryan, 598 00:45:14.559 --> 00:45:21.719 Thank you so much at least I know I'm not surrendering. I'm clear 599 00:45:21.760 --> 00:45:25.400 and open about that. I got to fix that. Oh well, you 600 00:45:25.639 --> 00:45:31.440 have given us in this last ten minutes so much to ponder that I need 601 00:45:31.480 --> 00:45:36.719 to go and go cry myself in the corner somewhere because in all a lot 602 00:45:36.719 --> 00:45:38.960 of sincerity, you're right now that I think about it, the more I 603 00:45:39.000 --> 00:45:44.159 think about it, I'm not meditating for the right purposes. I am trying 604 00:45:44.199 --> 00:45:47.119 to achieve something and for me right now, meditation, though it helps, 605 00:45:47.400 --> 00:45:50.960 right to Karen's point the very beginning of the show, if I don't meditate, 606 00:45:51.000 --> 00:45:52.679 people know it. So it helps me to at least calm myself and 607 00:45:52.719 --> 00:45:57.119 go through life in a better mind space. But really, if I'm trying 608 00:45:57.159 --> 00:46:02.119 to utilize meditation as a tool for assisting the awakening, then I need to 609 00:46:02.800 --> 00:46:07.320 make it a lot less about Okay, I gotta meditate because it's what I 610 00:46:07.320 --> 00:46:10.679 do every morning. It's more about release and surrender, and that's that's I 611 00:46:10.719 --> 00:46:15.800 appreciate your reminder because it's something that in life you just forget about right in 612 00:46:15.840 --> 00:46:22.280 the in the rigmarole of going through work and childcare and paying bills and all 613 00:46:22.320 --> 00:46:24.480 that kind of stuff. You forget. We're a lot more than just these 614 00:46:25.199 --> 00:46:30.639 three dimensional beings that are inhabiting this planet, where three body beings and the 615 00:46:30.679 --> 00:46:35.880 spiritual side of us is something that we've got to help cultivate. I really 616 00:46:36.519 --> 00:46:39.000 can't thank you enough for coming on the show. This has been super eye 617 00:46:39.039 --> 00:46:45.840 opening and illuminating, and I hope that we remain in contact because you have 618 00:46:45.960 --> 00:46:49.239 given us, in such a short amount of time, so much to think 619 00:46:49.239 --> 00:46:53.360 about and so much to really remember that. I really appreciate it. You 620 00:46:53.440 --> 00:46:58.559 gotta well, now, if someone wanted to reach out to you to continue 621 00:46:58.559 --> 00:47:01.119 the conversation, what would be the best way someone could do that? Find 622 00:47:01.159 --> 00:47:07.480 me on Instagram. So my Instagram handle is Ryan dot Jaburton, so you 623 00:47:07.480 --> 00:47:10.199 can find me there, and you can check out my website as well, 624 00:47:10.360 --> 00:47:15.119 Ryanjaburton dot com. Those are the best places to find me. Instagram for 625 00:47:15.199 --> 00:47:20.400 sure, that's where I do most of my activity. I don't manage space 626 00:47:20.440 --> 00:47:23.559 and time very well, that's obvious. So I'm fortunate that I get to 627 00:47:23.559 --> 00:47:28.320 make a living as a medicad because doing what you do will or whatever, 628 00:47:28.400 --> 00:47:31.320 I'd never make it. I just wouldn't work. So everything that I do 629 00:47:31.440 --> 00:47:36.920 is just on Instagram. If you want to hear or read my posts, 630 00:47:36.920 --> 00:47:39.880 you get look at my highlights and see the content that I've shared, and 631 00:47:39.960 --> 00:47:44.519 it's related to all the things that we discussed here. So Instagram is really 632 00:47:44.559 --> 00:47:46.960 the best place to find me, and I update my class schedules there and 633 00:47:47.639 --> 00:47:51.960 you can you can find me there if you are interested in classes, both 634 00:47:52.000 --> 00:47:53.239 of you as well. If you want to meditate together, I'd be more 635 00:47:53.239 --> 00:47:58.119 than happy to do that with him as well. So do you think there's 636 00:47:58.159 --> 00:48:00.599 hope for me? Oh? Absolute? This is the thing. Both of 637 00:48:00.599 --> 00:48:05.280 you are very You're very mature people. Right, You've been, you've been, 638 00:48:05.400 --> 00:48:08.639 You've been through you've been through life. You understand You're not like these 639 00:48:08.639 --> 00:48:14.000 little spiritual young ins and they're like early and they're late teens that have all 640 00:48:14.039 --> 00:48:17.440 these like crazy expectations about what this is about, what this this is supposed 641 00:48:17.440 --> 00:48:21.400 to be, and what it's supposed to make them. You know, being 642 00:48:21.400 --> 00:48:24.400 a more grounded person, the deeper your roots are in the real world, 643 00:48:24.440 --> 00:48:29.639 the higher your branches could go in the spiritual dimension. In my opinion, 644 00:48:29.920 --> 00:48:35.519 that also want to make sure we talk about or touch on really briefly, 645 00:48:35.599 --> 00:48:38.760 your show after Awakening, right, it's something that I recommend anyone who's interested 646 00:48:38.760 --> 00:48:44.280 in the topic to go ahead and subscribe to it because it sounds like really 647 00:48:44.320 --> 00:48:47.599 great content that continues this conversation. So what what can someone expect if they 648 00:48:47.599 --> 00:48:52.639 tune in? There are certain episodes that will make sense, and then there 649 00:48:52.679 --> 00:48:57.880 may be certain episodes that if there's poll or sanscrit terminology, you're gonna be 650 00:48:57.880 --> 00:49:00.480 like what what what? Like? What what did they just So you may 651 00:49:00.519 --> 00:49:06.679 need to have like Google search bar open, or go check the transcript and 652 00:49:06.760 --> 00:49:10.760 click the embedded link to understand what's specifically mentioned. But if you're willing to 653 00:49:10.800 --> 00:49:15.639 do that, if you're willing to do a little bit of link clicking, 654 00:49:15.039 --> 00:49:20.159 then the episodes will be very, very very fruitful. So absolutely, it's 655 00:49:20.840 --> 00:49:28.519 definitely talking about awakening and post awakening. So the process of that fundamental shift, 656 00:49:28.679 --> 00:49:34.880 the fundamental shift itself from ego to allness and everything that is entailed after 657 00:49:34.920 --> 00:49:37.639 that, because there's a whole integration process and a lot that comes up after 658 00:49:37.679 --> 00:49:40.239 the fact. So that's why it's called after awakening. Well, I just 659 00:49:40.280 --> 00:49:45.119 literally subscribed as we're sitting here talking because I'm fascinated by all this and I 660 00:49:45.159 --> 00:49:49.559 have no problem Google searching during the show, So thanks for bringing that up 661 00:49:49.679 --> 00:49:53.519 and rest assured you will hear from us because I am coming for you to 662 00:49:53.599 --> 00:49:59.559 teach me. I invite you will. I invite you come, come into 663 00:49:59.599 --> 00:50:01.559 the DEMENSI where there are no goals and there is no time and no self 664 00:50:01.599 --> 00:50:05.679 anymore. I invite you. How amazing would that be, Karen, to 665 00:50:05.760 --> 00:50:09.679 live in the world that say Brian is talking about. Oh sounds wonderful. 666 00:50:10.159 --> 00:50:14.920 Well, if you missed this, I will add links direct links in our 667 00:50:14.920 --> 00:50:20.599 show notes for Ryan's Instagram and website and will remind you of his show in 668 00:50:20.599 --> 00:50:23.559 that show notes, So if you have any questions or we want to reach 669 00:50:23.599 --> 00:50:27.679 out to Ryan, you'll know exactly how to do it. Ran. I 670 00:50:27.719 --> 00:50:30.320 can't thank you enough for coming on the show. You're welcome well, and 671 00:50:30.400 --> 00:50:36.440 Karen, thank you for again helping me run the interview, because man, 672 00:50:36.519 --> 00:50:42.039 I was so lost in my thoughts that your questions came in just a perfect 673 00:50:42.039 --> 00:50:44.840 time and once you heard how screwed up I was. I mean, you 674 00:50:44.880 --> 00:50:47.400 sound so much better. I felt much better. So yeah, I'm really 675 00:50:47.400 --> 00:50:51.880 glad you were here, always happy to help. Thank you, Karen, 676 00:50:52.280 --> 00:50:54.360 thank you, and thank you listener. For coming along on this journey of 677 00:50:54.400 --> 00:50:59.719 discovery with us. We'd love to continue our conversation with you on Facebook or 678 00:50:59.719 --> 00:51:02.840 Insta, so please find us there under at Skeptic Metaphysician, or of course 679 00:51:02.880 --> 00:51:07.039 at skeptic metaphysition dot com, where you can find direct links, as I 680 00:51:07.039 --> 00:51:09.119 mentioned, not only to our social media platforms and those of our guests, 681 00:51:09.519 --> 00:51:14.199 but where you can also subscribe to the show so you don't miss a single 682 00:51:14.199 --> 00:51:16.880 thing, or leave us a review directly there or voicemail on that site that 683 00:51:16.960 --> 00:51:21.000 we might be able to read on the air. As always, if you 684 00:51:21.039 --> 00:51:22.960 know someone that would benefit from hearing the messages we shared on this show or 685 00:51:23.000 --> 00:51:27.119 any of our others, I hope you'll consider sharing us with that person. 686 00:51:27.280 --> 00:51:30.360 It will help throw the show and may just help someone else come to terms 687 00:51:30.679 --> 00:51:32.920 with the fact that we're so much more than just the three dimensional body that 688 00:51:32.960 --> 00:51:36.559 we'd have it. Now that you miss any of our show today listening to 689 00:51:36.599 --> 00:51:38.400 it on the radio, not to worry. All of our shows, including 690 00:51:38.440 --> 00:51:43.000 this one, can be found on our site Skeptic Metaphysician dot com. You 691 00:51:43.039 --> 00:51:46.159 can become a member of the Skeptic Metaphysition community for free there and enjoy the 692 00:51:46.159 --> 00:51:51.280 added benefits of discounts for services from some of our past guests again as a 693 00:51:51.360 --> 00:51:53.760 chance as well as a chance to never miss the show immediately once it's been 694 00:51:53.800 --> 00:51:58.239 published. I hope you enjoyed this episode as much as we have. Sadly, 695 00:51:58.440 --> 00:52:00.400 that is all the time we have for now, but thanks for joining 696 00:52:00.480 --> 00:52:05.000 us again today. We'll see you on the next episode of The Skeptic Made 697 00:52:05.000 --> 00:52:06.840 a position. Until then, take care