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the intelligent thing to do. And we are recording live to tape, as
they say on the sixth of July, so we'll give you some context.
You know, I moved to the small Hudson River hamlet of Nayak over forty
years ago, lying only twenty five miles north of Midtown Manhattan. It is,
however, truly a world to part. Where New York City is all
about hustle and flow, Nayak is often described as quaint, charming, and
picturesque, with its impressive waterfront mansions and bustling art music scene. It is
all of those things and more. I love it for those qualities, but
even more so for its progressive attitude, diversity, and generosity of spirit.
However, no place is paradise, and that certainly goes for Nayak too.
Despite its boasts of inclusion, in the past, Nayak has turned its back
on a significant, largely successful, and thriving part of its own village,
the African American community. In the nineteen sixties, under the guise of something
known as urban renewal, large swath of the town's vibrant black community surrounding the
area around Jefferson Street were mislabeled as slums to give the town the excuse it
needed to level the entire area, including successful black owned businesses, and to
create more attractive housing and a parking lot to service the white downtown businesses.
The once modest black family homes were replaced with substandard block housing and the businesses
never returned, but the parking lot still exists. Keep that in mind.
To this day, the black community still bears the scars of that ill fated
attempt at so called civic improvement. It's now the subject of a new and
wonderful documentary, What Happened to Jackson Avenue, A Story of Urban Renewal Executive
produced by the Phoenix Theater Ensemble in association with Rivertown Film and created by Hakima
Alim and Rudy Gold. We will meet some of the creators of this important
film in just a moment and will take a taken After the break, we
will continue our intelligent conversation on a very important and related subject, this recent
Supreme Court decision on affirmative action with the nub ACPs. Wilbur Baldridge. Okay,
let's meet our panel, And as I always do, these are really
truncated introductions. If I were to read what all of these people have accomplished,
we'd have no show left, nothing to talk about, because they're that
impressive. So forgive me, guys, this is very brief as it relates
to what we're talking about. Craig Smith is a managing director of the Phoenix
Theater Ensemble and an executive producer of the documentary. At Least Stone is founder
and artistic director of the Phoenix Theater Ensemble and also a co executive producer.
Bill Batson an artist, activist, a longtime Nayak resident, and whose family
was directly affected by the loss of Jefferson Street. Welcome everyone. I'm so
excited to have you here. I saw the documentary and it is wonderful.
Well done. Thank you so much. Franky, you can all say hi,
thank you, thank Hi, Welcome, Good evening everyone, Craig,
Bill, thank you, thank you for joining us. They know it's a
little awkward because and now we stream audio and not video, but but that's
okay. We have lots to talk about. It was a great description you
gave of the the situation that the film explorers. Thank you, Bill,
appreciate especially coming from you. That's that's quite a compliment, and I want
to develop that. We're going to talk about it. But let's let and
anyone can take any question at any time. Obviously I'll point some directly,
but but in general, feel free to jump in at any time to make
any point. But let's give some people some context. First, Uh,
let's let's talk about us. And again it's part of the film, and
it's oppressive. The history of the African American the black community in niag It
is and it was it continues to be a rich one. But let's give
some people a little context. Anybody can take this. The strong black presence
has really always been a part of Naya Bill. You lived here, Yeah,
I mentioned it, and I've studied some And it's interesting when Perry is
interviewed in the film, and he's an ideal person to talk about the history
of the county because he is a direct descendant of I think the first or
the second Dutch immigrant to arrive here, and like the early sixteen hundreds,
around the time of the Tapan patent, which is the first European presence,
and the beginning of the encroachment and the loss of native land. From the
very beginning there were African There was an African presence, and it wasn't just
a slave presence. Of course, until eighteen twenty seven in New York State.
In eighteen sixty three the United States, if you were a black person
living here, you were likely to be a slave or to be caught by
a slave catcher and declared a slave, whether you were or not. So
but but Rockland County had free and enslaved Africans um from the very beginning.
And when you look at the history of Naik, which became kind of the
metropolis of the county, UM the kind of population center and the industrial center
UM where goods from the farms were brought to markets through the river and eventually
the road systems. UM. The population has consistently stayed around twenty percent.
Maybe it's gone a little bit below, maybe it's gone a little bit above,
and if if it would definitely hit its apex around the time that UM,
the neighborhood, the middle class black neighborhood of Jackson Avenue was declared a
slum despite m tons of evidence, and a lot of that evidence is in
this documentary. Yes, and I want to talk about the development of bringing
Craig a Lease in just a minute, talk about the development as a documentary,
as a film, if you will, But but I want to develop
a little bit more in context than UH, Jackson Avenue, UH tell us
about it, what was and you grew up there as a young man,
uh in the fifties and early sixties. What was was Jackson Avenue like?
Because now it's basically a parking lot as I've known it, and I've been
here forty years, I never knew it as it was. What was it?
Well, just to correct the record, I didn't grow up there,
UM. I grew up in in the home UM my grandmother managed to get
after she was forced out of Jackson Avenue in nineteen sixty four, she managed
to buy a home and UM and on Upper to Pew near central Nyak UM
but Jackson Avenue, UM, there's a home. If anybody UH was walking
in nyak up to Pew Avenue from UM Broadway, if they take a left
on Liberty Street, which is right behind the post office, there is on
one side there are apartment buildings, the brick buildings that you're referenced earlier.
On the other side there's a lone little house and that's kind of typical of
the construction UM. And that house UM recently had a condemned sign on it,
but I just recently noticed it. The condemned signs left, So it's
one of the last remaining UM houses in that kind of footprint. UM.
And if you go up Bird Street, UM, which is the how the
street that um has Saint Philip's on the corner. All those houses were very
similar to that period. And um, if you watch this film, you'll
see literally white picket fences and um you know stoops with porches and you know,
dry cleaning signs hanging outside. So it was it was a um,
you know, it was a mixed use, um, middle class neighborhood.
I'm sure there were a couple of buildings that provided um, you know,
multiple dwellings. Uh you know maybe um uh you know, uh single or
studio apartments, so maybe you know, they weren't as groomed as a person
grooms. You know, they're there a single family home. Um. But
really very little of all the photographs, and there are a lot of photographs
from this period, there's very very little evidence that Jackson Avenue was anything other
than a typical American street. Okay, so now we have this thing called
urban renewal, which from my little bit of research that I did do,
started in the late forties but really kind of reached, uh it's most destructive
in the sixties. It did, particularly in Nyack. What was what was
the concept behind it? And again, anyone can take this and then we'll
eventually wind it to how this became a film and what the film is saying
about it. But we need some context. So we had this urban renewal
plan, it comes to Nayak, How is it presented? How is it
executed? Anyone here to grab? I mean, I can at least did
you want to know? I would like to I would defer to you Bill
as the historian. UM sure, and and and and once again, as
I said, the film, Uh, you know, um Kim Alam and
Rudy Gould do a great job of telling the story and putting together the background
of the legislation. But UM, basically there was a notion that UM cities
required giant parking lots and UM and skyscrapers or or or or office blocks in
the middle and UM and the and that uh this was a time when um,
you know, the downtown was possibly struggling some and uh it wasn't quite
um the magnet for retail that it had been in the past. UM.
And there was this notion that if land could be acquired, UM, that
it would be you know, a solution to the to all the problems that
ailed Naiak at the time. UM. And uh what urban renewal does is
it gives the government power to um declare something um. You know, uh,
the that remove something for quote unquote the greater good. Um. People
are the proper product. You know, the property is condemned and the property
owner is offered a settlement which is pennies on the dollar of the value of
the property. UM. And you really don't have a recourse, there's no
UM. And I'm very interested. I know there's legislation now and people are
looking at how this was conducted around the country. I don't really even think
that people had due process. I'm pretty sure that there are a lot of
you know, people who were just in shock and they were dealing with the
whole town and the newspapers and everybody, you know, kind of declaring that
you know, happy days are here again, as long as you get out
of your house quickly and um. And then as as one of the interviewees
Lonnie Leonard says, the second you got out of your house, you know,
it was bulldozed and then they would go after your neighbor um. So
uh, you know, the process um was very brutal and UM. And
there was one other provision that the filmmakers were able to capture UM the way
that the legislation was envisioned. UM. People were supposed to be reum relocated
UM, you know, but before they were removed UM and before the project
could proceed UM. But at one point the mayor of Nike at the time
said that they didn't consider themselves a social service agency and that's not what they
were elected to do. So basically people were just shoved out. And many
of those families, you know, they're about one hundred and twenty four families.
UM, we don't we don't really know where they where they went and
what happened to them. And they lost you know, those that were owners
lost, you know, UM an asset that could and that's that's generation generation.
So yeah, there's there's there's a great great UM look at the Walston
generational wealth. Yes. Some of the reasons behind this Wind talks about it
is the Thruway was coming through at that time too, in the nineteen fifties,
and uh, and there were all these strip malls that were right around
the throughway, and and that that was taking away all the retail, you
know, and the retail from a place like Nyack, and so part of
their consideration was that, Okay, we're going to clean up, clean up.
Then they called them the slums. They'll clean up the slums and and
we will get retailed back here. Uh. And then you know, wind
says, you know that they didn't understand what a colossal mistake that actually was,
because really what was replaced was a parking lot, a bank, and
this other thing which kind of looks like a strip mall on Main Street.
But I've never quite understood what exactly what that is. But the there wasn't
improvement there with what they were thinking about, and these families and these businesses
were removed. Uh the uh there for the eminent domain. They did give
you know, pennies and the dollar at least for the residents, but they
gave absolutely nothing for any business. For all the business that were gone,
and these people were relocated. Uh, faith talks about moving to Orangeburg,
and they moved to Orangeburg. And when they moved there there there were petitions
from the people in Orangeburg to keep the black families out. So this is
the kind of reception that they were getting. People who had a community,
who had a family, and then the government moves in bulldozes it all out.
And there's no recourse. So it's you know, it's it's really it's
it's shameful. It truly is, you know, when it's shocking as as
a long time Nayak resident and one of the things, you know, Nayak
is thought of and it is mostly qualify that a progressive town. So when
you find out history like this, it's disturbing, as it should be.
You know, people should be pissed off. Wennie. You know, Lonnie
says in liberal Nayak, Liberal Nayak, they did this, you know,
you know, he just hits the nail right in the head. And and
and it's one of the things that really appealed to us when we moved here
was you know, the diversity and the liberalness and the progressiveness of this town.
And then you know, when when we were talking to Bill, we
were we were doing we were having a theater conversation out in the parking lot
and we were I was on an audio tour that we were going to have
for our festival. And when Bill was there and he was standing in the
parking lot in two empty spaces, and he said, this is where my
family's household stood, and and and and in this empty parking lot and and
and that's what began this journey for us that led to this documentary. Um,
you know, did you were you approached by Rudy and Hakima or did
you approach them? I'm interested in the germ of how this all came together.
Who was you know what came first? The chicken or the end?
Did you did you guys have this idea and look for them to create this
film or were they creating this film and then came to you for for more
support, et cetera. So at least why don't you take out so um
So, as Craig was saying, you know, we were we were creating
an audio um and augmented reality walking tour um of the village, and so
Bill was taking us to to various sites. But we were deciding what would
be interesting to bring people in for the festival, to walk, to bring
them through the town and to have this experience, but let them experience the
village. And then when Bill stood in the parking lot and said my family
home was here, that was it had like a really kind of soul shattering
effect on me quite frankly. So then I started thinking about, well,
what if we were to incorporate in this walking tour an augmented, augmented reality
and narrative experience where you could see what used to be in the parking lot,
you know, what that used to be, what was taken away from
the village. And and so we had asked Rudy and Hakima Alm if they
would, um start working on some visuals for this, and then it just
kind of, um, how can I put this? It was a even
though you have to understand, we are not our our art form is not
making film. That isn't actually what we do. People. We've spent decades
live theater performances. Um. However, um, it became very clear the
more research that we did that this was a story that needed to be told.
Bill also had shared with us a zoom uh talk that was done I
think at the Historical Society or at the Nyack Library. And so we watched
that uh and heard some of the folks speaking and listen, we're storytellers and
the kind of theater that we do. I want to tell stories. It's
important to me to tell stories that are deeply human, whether they're you know,
comedy is absurd or whatever they are, but it's something that deeply human
because I believe in the power of storytelling to change hearts and minds and hopefully
cultures and societies and all of my big idealistic feelings about why I make the
art that I do. But it seemed to me these were stories that needed
to be told, that they needed to be told now. And even though
we are not filmmakers, we could say, well, let's just wait until
somebody comes along who you know, who can do this and who does know
how to do this and who will do this, or we can tell the
story now because the people who have lived through this, who are witnesses to
this are you know, they're not twenty anymore, and these stories will be
lost to us, and the truth has to be told, and we all
need to we all need to face history, because it isn't his story for
the people whose lives were impacted. It is still impacting them and will impact
them for generations, has done so and will continue to do so. There
were a lot of people who you know, who said, why why has
it taken so long to tell this story? Uh, you know, and
we were relatively new, I mean, we moved to Nyak in twenty eighteen,
and we started doing theater performances there and then the festival last year.
But in a way, I kind of think that it took someone from the
outside to look at this and to unpack this uh complicated and painful history,
and I hope a very sensitive way. Uh, we didn't have the baggage
that I think. You know, people who have lived in Nyack have been
there many filmmakers here in Nyak, but maybe it maybe it took someone from
the outside to kind of look at it, So you know that that's kind
of had something to do with it as well. Well. Yeah, and
I think it's interesting with your perspective too, And you mentioned being outsiders with
an idea and maybe an ideal as well of what Nyak was supposed to be.
Has this changed your expectations in some ways? Could it even have made
it stronger because the village hopefully at some point will come to terms with this,
and they haven't entirely. And I thought I read an account and your
response about the audience which was lacking in black representation, So are you know,
within the context of the film too, are we doing enough to reach
out again with as significant as Bill mentioned, a significant portion twenty percent of
the Nayak population is black. But but are we you know, we certainly
have improved, but but is it enough? And again it comes down to
your impressions, what you thought, and what you found, especially through creating
this film. We would I would say that the key I'm sorry, the
key audience here or the one hundred and twenty four families that were displaced.
And that is um something that you know, a filmmaker doing a screening can't
really accomplish. That is, that is a kind of the job of like
a commission um with some funding and and you know, some some resources.
Um. And uh, you know I know that that UM. Any time
I go to any event with in Nayak anywhere, but particularly the Niac Center
because it is so um well represented in all the communities of the village,
I look to the audience and I would have liked to have seen more people
of color the first time, and I hope that that will will. You
know, I know that steps have been taken to have more people of color
here the next time. UM, But this is the second screening of something
that should be viewed you know, hundreds of times here and and and and
at this time too. It's it's perfect. So again with our taping here
on the on the sixth, which is a Thursday, So Friday the seventh,
if anybody is in the Nyack area at the Nyack Center at eight pm,
will be a screening of Jackson and Whatever what Happened to Jackson Avenue,
a story of urban renewal. Again, I'm grateful to you guys. I
got an advanced copy and I was stunned by it. It's it's excellent in
every way technically, it's it's easy to watch, it's beautifully photographed, and
the stories are so honest. The people are so honest. And you know,
I thought I kind of knew some of those people, but I did
never knew their stories, and you know, they got bro there's there's um.
There's two um two dynamics here. One is that oftentimes, especially the
painful periods of of kind of racial discord, they feel, uh, when
you're living in the North and you're living at a place that feels liberal and
progressive, like it feels like you're separated by you know, decades and by
hundreds of miles from those events. You know that they take took place in
another time and another place on another side of the Mason Dixon line. But
this is a perfect example where in every American city that hadn't ever been renewal
program, you know, a very Jim Crow, viciously Jim Crow thing occurred
with government sanction and without you know a lot of protests. But the other
thing which I think came across from what the filmmakers have done and what people
started to discuss at the Night Center and the people who I know who've seen
the film and discussed, is that there are aspects of that displacement going on
today that there are um you know, certainly one way to lose your houses
through a bulldozer. But if you know, if you're renting and suddenly you
know them, you know your your rent is doubled or tripled, you know
that that that is a form of displace And if the number of rental units
start to shrink and it puts more pressure. So there are um a lot
of um factors today that make um, you know, uh Nayak a less
and less friendly place, um you know, uh for for people who aren't
aren't hot, you know, in the upper echelon in terms of income.
So there are so many issues in history and so many current issues that that
seem to um flow out of this this this um screening, and and hopefully
it's important mentioned too as we stream. You know when we mentioned Nie,
we're all Nyackers, can we still love our little town? But this streams
beyond. And I think it's important you made the point and we're all making
the point. This is just this is not unique to Nayak And I think
you're making the point that if it can happen here, it can certainly happen
anywhere. And it did. And I think that that's part of the message
of the of the film, of the documentary, and guys, Craig and
Atlis, I want you to speak on that, the message within that I
saw that you know, they're so typically American, and I'm almost saying it's
like surprised, but and I say it from the standpoint that you would be
surprised it would happen to anyone, any one of our neighbors. Yet it
did. And it didn't only happen here, It happened everywhere. Guys,
at least Craig, take that a little bit. What what do you hope
people will take from these interviews, these very honest and opening taking the specificity
of it is it really works, you know, is that you know,
listen to urban renewal and then the complications and challenges of urban renewal is a
national anyone an international program. But the thing about this is this happened in
our community, that this this was here, and it happened here. And
the other thing I found interesting that when we had the premier screening, Yeah,
it was like a white audience and usually an older white audience, but
in many cases, in many ways, these are the stakeholders of a kind
of reparation or things like that. And the thing I was stunned at was
the concrete recommendations and suggestions that came from people and saying, maybe we should
do attacks, maybe we should do this, what if we did this?
I mean really in a community situation. They were coming up with very concrete
suggestions on how to address this inequity that happened. So that was a really
good thing and it was really good to see it come from this particular audience.
I also have tremendous gratitude in a village like Nayak that is highly principled,
that is getting in front of this issue and in front of this documentary
and is acknowledging its past and how to learn from its past and not trying
to just forget that this didn't happen. All the way from you know,
Don Hammond to the trustees and all of that kind of stuff. Very you
know, very very much in support of all of this, at least,
what would you what would you add to that? You know, this is,
as you said, this is an American problem. It persists in being
a problem that has happened everywhere. And I think that the really important thing
about telling the story specifically about Nyack and Craig. I hope you're right.
I hope that actually the village will come together and actually be moved to start
finding ways to create reparations of some sort for all of these families. But
I think that one of the really important things for me is that we need
to acknowledge that this happened not just to a group of people. This happened
to individuals and their families. That it's so easy to lump things together and
say, you know, this happened in you know, in this country,
there was a war, this community was you know, this population was removed.
These are individual people. The repercussions for what happened, our generational trauma
and stealing generational wealth that cannot be easily recovered. And we have a tendency
to say about things well that happened so long ago, which is a way
of sort of dismissing people and their experience that we have to stop doing.
It didn't happen so long ago, and it didn't happen to a group of
people. It happened to this mother and this father who have a name,
who had children who have lives and whose lives were upended. And that's the
thing that I think that Rudy and Hakim Alem did so beautifully in this film
was allowing these individuals to speak to their experience and their family experiences so we
could stop divorcing ourselves in some way by saying, you know, this group
of people who was you know, whose properties were, and then they just
went away. You know, they didn't just go away. It's a perfect
segue because you can't see because we just streamed audio now. But I do
take little notes as we go along, and they made a little note to
ask Bill, Bill, you lived it. Okay, we see it.
We can create a film about it if you will, and support it,
but you lived it. How do you feel about the film? How do
you feel when you see the film? Like, as I said, of
all of us, you were the one that experienced the most. You were
literally there. Well, it was it was interesting because I've done a good
deal of oral history and Nayak and I realized that, Um, there's two
dynamics. One oftentimes, UM it's hard as compelling as it is to learn
these facts. Like Alice said, they're traumatic to the people who lived through
them. So it's it's something that you, um are kind of forced to
relive. So there there is you know, a kind of a PTSD aspect.
Yes, I could feel that very much. Um. There's a story
that Lonnie Leonard tells about um uh the mortgage Uh the officer at a bank
tearing up documents and throwing them in the trash and telling his father will never
get Alane. You can see how devastating that was to the family, and
it reverberated to the generations. In front of his father, that happened.
I mean, it's just what happened. Yeah, in front of his father
and and you know, his father was a vet and and you know,
an incredible pillar in the community, and this is how he was treated.
So so it's hard to get the nerve and it's hard to to to to
share this. So when you once you do it, there's a certain kind
of responsibility for them, you know, the person who takes this information and
the artists that work with it. And I was just and normally I'm the
person asking for these stories. So now I was telling stories about my grandmother
and and and the pain that she suffered from being displaced. Um. You
know, the family home that we lost was purchased in eighteen eighty three,
so that's twenty years after black people in America were property. Um, this
family managed somehow to acquire property, and that property was what was taken.
So it really wasn't just brick and mortar and money, it was something.
It was freedom. Actually, at one point, Barbara Williams says, it
was your your ticket to freedom, and and that was what was stolen.
So UM, I was just so h impressed and and and proud of of
the document that um that Kima and Rudy put together. Um, you know,
the story, the narrative structure of the film, or the interviews that
they took, and they really did manage somehow to get us all to to
go back in history and to go talking about At one point, UM,
you know, Faith is talking about how she likes to go in the classroom
and teach about black history. And then of course that is something that is
being canceled. I mean, you know, Uh, people don't like cancel
culture. Well, how the heck do you cancel American history? You know?
So um and uh And then I was able to tell a story where
I really began to learn more about urban renewal when I was in South Africa,
and I learned that the South African government, when they were planning forced
removals and apartheid, actually flew to the United States to study our slum clearance
programs. So UM, I left. Uh you know the first time I
saw it, UM, I left the Nike library. UM deeply moved and
and and um and and and relieved. UM because it's such a you know,
a burden and a responsibility to deal with this. And now I'm just
very hopeful that UM we get we've gotten to such wonderful reactions. UM,
people really want to help move this forward. UM, you know. And
uh. And the last thing is, UM, their their cases around the
country now in Palm Springs, a lot in California where communities are formally formally
requesting apologies and reparations and and and commission. So um, I think this
is the timing of this is wonderful and the product is perfect. Well,
yeah, I just want to on the spot about what we're going to do
with this, Joe. But I's going to add on to that is that
I think that what is so deeply affecting about how the story is told is
that because this is people's lived experiences, there isn't there isn't an argument here.
You can't argue. You can't say to somebody, I don't agree with
your lived experience. I don't agree with this. It's not you know,
this is not a matter of a political ideology or anything else. This is
people's lived experiences, and you can't there's no argument here. You can't say,
oh no, you know you didn't you don't feel that way. These
are lived experiences. They are they kind of I hope I know they do
for me, but I'm I'm on the empathetic scale of things, but they
kind of like break my heart open, like extremely is the the depth of
sharing of all of your story as a Bill and Barbara and Lonnie and faith
and the the intimacy and the vulnerability actually of sharing that because that is that
is trauma, and that is you know, PTSD inducing to when people see
the interviews and they should see this documentary. And I'm gonna ask Craig what
would be the next step? People should see this, Everyone should see this,
and I you know, I'm I use social media promote and I said,
you know, yakers, every Nayakers should see this, but every American
should see this story. So how are we going to do that? Craig,
What's what's next for this documentary? What would you like to see?
I will just add one thing well talking about it, but the artistry of
how they put this film together is there's no narration. This is only only
the stories of the people who lived in so there's no agenda here. So
you know that that that that comes to clearly and then and it is very
moving. And when we were watching a rough cut in our house, we
were looking at it and I said to Rudy. Rudy and Hakima said,
we need to put a monetary value on this because people are going to say,
oh, this is really sad. This is very emotional, it's a
psychologically very different and then some people will respond to that. And then but
then there's a whole group of people who when you talk, when you have
the actual monetary generational wealth that was stolen from these people, it can hit
you like a s in the stomach. And that's exactly and that's exactly what
this is. And our calculations on this is between thirty and forty million dollars
which were lost from these families. And then when we talk about affirmative action,
you know, affirmative action is is a grain of sand in the barricade
against education inequities. And now we get rid of that. And so the
most little thing is too much and and and these families that were in Niake,
in our own community lost millions of dollars and and and their children could
have gone to these you know, these elite colleges or at least had the
an access to it, and that access has taken away. And then the
Supreme Court turns around and does this. It's it's ridiculous. After the break,
we have Wilbur Aldridge from the NUBACP is going to come. We're gonna
talk about that because it's it's still happening. You know, it's so funny
we spent to thirty five minutes or so speaking about a film from the sixties
and yet in its own way, it still had happening. I think that's
part of the of the point of the film. So tomorrow night, the
seventh, correct and to Nayak Center eight pm. Is there any other way
people can see the film? Will it eventually be streamed on any kind of
surface, because not everybody lives at Nyack or can get to the film,
but they need to see it. What happened to Jackson Avenue a story of
urban renewal. How do we get it to them? Well, we're still
working on the what is next and what the next steps are and how that
happens for many different reasons, including for the filmmakers themselves. But our hope
is that the film will be seen widely, that it will at some point
be able to be streamed. UM. So this is you know, these
are the first two screamings that have been um have happened. And by the
way, we're very close to being sold out for the second screening as well,
So people do one you know, people certainly in the community do want
to see it, and we we do think that it should be more widely
seen. So, um, the best thing I can say is, you
know, we're all staying tuned to this space as we figure out all of
the next steps as to as to what happens with the film. Greig last
thoughts. We have a minute or two left last some last thoughts here.
I think I think at some point, you know, well most likely will
be streaming. We're talking to some distributed We haven't made movies before, you
know, so we're new at this and uh. And and then there's been
some interest in distribution and things like that, and you know, and streaming
interferes with with your ability to do that. So we're trying to be smart
at the same time, so trying to make the right decision along the line.
But we want people to see this. Uh. And we were so
pleasantly surprised at the quality of this documentary. And certainly it is a reflection
on you know, Bill and Aleases and everyone's part that their their their passion
about telling these stories and these stories they need to be told. These are
old These are old people. Some of them are in their eighties somewhere in
their nineties, and so as Bill said, you know at one point and
said, we can't waste time. We need to move forward with this and
make sure we capture this. So you know, we we record, we
reveal, and we hope that we preserve. I mean that that that that's
what we're trying to do with this. Yeah, but I do want to
give all kudos to Ridi Goal and Hakima Alm in terms of the filmmaking,
because that was you know, I think that we had an amazing group of
storytellers who are the interviewees um to tell their story and then really um very
sensitive and art beautifully executed filmmakers to do this, and then you know,
and then you know, the only thing, honestly, the only thing I
really had brought to this is my desire that the story should be told and
out of nothing, because you know, I've said this before, we're theater
makers, and we didn't have a budget or anything like that for making a
movie. We're going to be paying for this for a long time. This
is not you know, it wasn't like I went, oh and this theater
season. I also happened to be doing a documentary and I budgeted for that
it didn't happen that way. It really was Bill standing in the parking lot
saying this is where my family home was, and learning about that, and
then seeing the talk at the Naiack Library that was recorded. It just had
to be done, that's all. And if it wasn't us, then you
know, it's that thing, if you know, if not me, then
who? And if not now, then when? And it was that sit
So yeah, thoughts, I've got about a minute. Yeah, I um
uh want people to see this. I know that the people have been making
wonderful offers of support and trying to figure out a way to get it into
schools and get um, you know screenings um uh you know, discount tickets
for those um uh. I just urged people to um to meet you know,
Lonnie, faith Um, Barbara other people you're actually never going to forget.
I think, I think, I don't know if people agree, but
I think the breakout performance was Lonnie Buster Leonard. He's amazing. He loves
Nak and he looses Nayak and you'll never forget him once you meet him.
And I believe he's going to be at the screening um tomorrow night, So
come down and and and enjoy the film and and UM and we'll we'll make
sure that more and more people learn what happened to Jackson Avenue and um and
for anybody who suffered from urban renewal will be a part of finding a way
forward and finding the truth of what happened and finding some reconciliation. Craig and
Elise, Uh, we didn't even get to talk about the Phoenix the summer.
That's another show, a whole another show. Thank you, thanks for
the teeth. Bill exactly got you guys, got you guys for another show.
Uh, We've got to take a quick break. I want to thank
you so much, Craig Elise. Bill please expressed to Hakima and Rudy what
a fabulous job it is. I hope to meet them someday, maybe tomorrow
night. I will see you guys there. I look forward to meeting some
of the other participants in the film and it will be certainly my pleasure.
Got to go for a quick break. Will we come back? And I
just got to call Wilbur. Wilbur is calling. I'm just answered. It's
called Wilbur. Will be with you just one minute after this commercial break.
We're going to break right now when we come back, it's so relative.
It's just scary how that work works out. Sometimes we're gonna talk a little
bit about the Supreme Court's decision on affirmative Action with the n double ACPs Wilbur
Aldress. In just one minute, Tom your host Frank Lagono. We've got
a little bit more to go with this great show. To uncle anywhere yet,
We'll be back. Hudson River Radio dot com. Bring a dash of
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or wherever you get your podcasts. Hudson River Radio dot com. Welcome back
to being Frank Ware. The best way to be is Frank. I'm your
host, Frank Labono. Thank you once again for joining us. We just
finished a great conversation with the creators of a wonderful new documentary called What Happened
to Jackson Avenue, a story of urban renewal, and as part of it,
one of our guests, Craig Smith, one of the executive producers,
brought up the recent Supreme Court decision which basically cancels affirmative action, and he
said, my god, affirmative action is a grain assault to try to make
good on what has happened to African Americans, blacks in this country and even
in a progressive place like Nayak in plain English. And I'm a plain speaker,
and my guest, as a plain speaker that got screwed again. I
guess there's kind of no other way to put it as being Frank as I
can possibly be. So without further ado, let me welcome back to the
show. One of my favorite guests from the n Double ACP, mister Wilbur
Aldridge Wilburg, thank you once again for joining us. Your honest, intelligent
conversation is always appreciated here. Well, thank you for having me, and
i'd rather long winded introduction. We talked a little bit about urban renewal,
which used eminent domain to destroy any equity that most black families might have had
this point. So affirmative action was an effort at one time to try to
level the playing field little bit at least, and now it's gone. What
are your thoughts? My thoughts is an absolute sad day in America. The
purpose of affirmative action was always and still is until they decided to sludge hammer
it. The purpose was to ensure equity and education so that people of color,
specifically black people, would be able to become self sufficient and navigate the
system intelligently and qualify for positions. That was the sole purpose of affirmative action.
To be honest, the people person who really who people who got the
most out of affirmative action on all levels, It was white women. You
know, black's benefited, yes, but it was white women that really benefited
from it. I yes, the Supreme Court or especially Clarence Thomas for some
reason, that there was there is now equity as far as educational opportunities is
concerned, and that systemic racism does not exist. Well, let's again finish
your point. I'm sorry, we'll go. Didn't mentioned interruption. I was
just going to say that for most people, most people in this country knows
that that's not the case, and education has always been the key to getting
out of poverty, getting out of our eliminating racist activity, and affirm that
was the purpose of affirmative action too, so the people would be reporting on
what they were doing. So there was some oversight. Well, you mentioned
Clarence Thomas was at least a controversial figure at the very least, but the
only black man on the Supreme Court and yet voted to And I would think
at some point in his life, although I'm sure he's brilliant in his own
way, he must have been a brilliant student and earned honors that way.
But I'm sure at some point in his life there must have been someone who
supported him as a black man. And yet in a sense he's turned his
back if he will on other blacks. What what what? What is your
feeling as a black man for someone who says well, I made it,
well, I did it, you know, by the and that's often you
here with many people and people not of means and say, well, nobody
helped me. I had to do it all on my own, and blah
blah blah, what are your thoughts? He doesn't even say that. He
says that he benefited from affirmative action, however, it was the worst day
of his life, right, and that he felt that that diminished the quality
or the feeling or the thought of his Harvard degree. Right. I mean,
I don't know anyone else that has that opinion other than him. And
listen, everybody that looks like me and whose skin colors like me does not
feel like me. That's an important point to make. You know. We
tend to think of things in groups of people sometimes as homogeneous, but that's
not necessarily the case. So it will elaborate on that a little bit.
Well, it depends upon the individual. There are some people who feel I've
benefited from affirmative action. You know. I went to Fareleigh Dickinson University in
seventy three. That was not the time that there were a There was a
total of fifteen African Americans on campus. The Fareley Dickinson University of Tena campus.
Now, obviously New Jersey is full of people of color, but that
wasn't an option for many of them at that time. So there were there.
Yes, it opened doors, but you had to perform in order to
stay there. So it's not a case so if anyone was giving you anything
other than an opportunity. Once you got the opportunity, then you had to
demonstrate your ability to achieve within that. That goes be an education or employment.
It's still the same thing. I want to talk a little bit about
things on a personal level. And you mentioned at f tou in seventy three,
and I'm you know, in Teaneck. I'm from Fort Lee, so
it was familiar a little bit with the campus, and I'm sure there were
not many blacks on the campus at Fairleigh Dickinson, especially at that time.
What is that like, Wilburt. I know, when I'm in a situation,
when I'm when it's reversed and I'm in the minority, always try to
feel comfortable, but it can be a little bit of a strange situation.
I think people need to understand in an environment like that, what is it
like? It can be. It can be difficult for some people depending upon
who you who you're dealing with, and who you're around. Fortunately, for
me, the people some of my best friends even today are people that I
went to school with a Fareleigh Dickinson, who don't look like me, not
even of the same religion as me. But there was there was a camaraderie
that you developed on campus that kind of superseded the color. Where they were
learning from me, and I was certainly learning about them from them, both
on a cultural basis as well as a religious basis. So there it was
one of the better things that probably happened to me in life because at that
coming from the South, I had not been around white people. You know,
that wasn't that wasn't what I had done, and the experiences that I
had or knew about people that did not look like me were negative experiences.
Now I finished, I graduated high school in sixty four, so I didn't
go to fair I went to Rockland Community College prior to that, but I
worked at Let's Where Village during that time, and even then, I would
say the experiences with many of the white people there were superficial. You know,
it was nice, but you knew you felt as if it was a
force niceness and discrimination was certainly prevalent during that time. I mean, you
didn't have an administrative of color, let's where philis during that time. So
going in to family, I began to see that there was some genuine people
on the other side of the track, so to speak. You know,
one last point, well Burn, You know, I heard a very interesting
point made by one pundit that nobody really picked up about affirmative action, that
it not only benefits students of color, it benefits all students by increasing diversity.
So that, you know, you mentioned exposure to different cultures again,
I went to I'll never forget. I went to Lily white virtually Fortley High
School, and then I went to Rutgers in Newark and played football there with
black men. It was an experience literally, physically, spiritually, emotionally.
I had never been, as you had mentioned, ever, never been about
white around white people. I had never been around black people before, and
just in generalism sort of see certain habits and cultural things, how they shared
with one another was fascinating to me. So it enriched me as well as
others, And that point somehow gets missed. Total thoughts on that. Well,
that's another thing that you just hit the nail on the head when you
mentioned diversity. That's one of the things that affirmative action did. It provided
diversity, equity, and inclusion. It was a main road to get those
things started, so that once it was started, people then began to perform
in a manner in which other people saw that the people were not so much
different. We had more things in common than we had not in common.
We had more The intelligence level was not substandard. It was in most instances
equal in most instances. Now I'm referring to after the college education. It
always amazed me when I first after that first finished college and I started this
work and I would go speak, people would say, oh, you speak
so intelligently, which, in essence said to me, you really expected me
to be I guess, illiterate, or or to speak unintelligently. I guess
I'm not sure what they expected, but obviously it wasn't that I would be
speaking as anyone else would speak. So that was one of the things.
So, I mean, there are many many ways affirmative action has change this
country for the better. So to strike it down and essence puts us back
to where we were. I remember part of initially an affirmative action. I
worked in human resources, and human resources we had to report on the number
of hires based upon race. It was done by observing people and therefore figuring
out what race they were, and in some instances that was more difficult than
you would think, but then it was reported, so there was a It
was as if Big brothers watching to make sure that you are employing all kinds
of people and not people that just looked like one in particular group. That's
a good thing, excellent. When I left, When I left human Resources
and went into other areas, at some point that part of affirmative action was
also stopped, So the reporting was stopped when I left. I'll say Luxworth
Village for an example. When I left there, the management level of Luxworth
Village was extremely diversed. Any kind of name, a person of nic culture
and you could find it there, or any race you could find it there.
Within eight years that totally had dissipated to as of today it is completely
quite again. So there is a tendency to revert back to what was instead
of continuing forward. One of the things that the NAACP is doing. And
we had a national call to action meeting last week after this was done fact
the night, the day, the next day, and in that meeting we
are we have been asked to contact all of the educational institutions that we deal
with on a local basis and ask them to sign on sign a petition that
they will continue to push diversity, equity and inclusion in their institutions. That's
from public education to private education as far and as well as colleges is concerned.
Well, that's the least we can do at this point. Will We're
Aldred. You're always welcome here on being frank, your your intelligent conversation is
always welcome. I want to thank you for joining us. Oh, thank
you, thank you again to this opportunity. I'm sad that I have to
be talking about you know, I mean, we're just talking about celebration and
Juneteenth, and a few weeks later here we're back to square one. I
let what people talk about the good old days, Well, the old days
may not have been all that good. When you're stopping you, well,
actually it may be better than the days that comment. So I don't know,
there's a little bit of a bit of a scary thought that will have
to live. We'll have to leave it it there. You know, I'd
like to thank Neil Richter of course, the mailman, our engineer, you
know, he drives the bus, he gets us to our destination where we
need to be. But of course, our most special thanks to our listeners
who take the time to give us a voice in their lives. Remember we
offer a fresh topic every week and you can catch us wherever and whenever you
get your favorite podcasts, Apple, Spotify, iHeart Speaker and more. You
can check us out on the Hudson River Radio Facebook page or Hudson River Radio
dot com. Click on Being Frank and you can listen to any show.
Of course, at the end of every program, I like to leave you
with what I like to call two nuggets, and I think Wilbur and our
first guests will appreciate this. It's from Frederick Douglas. Where justice is denied,
where poverty is enforced, where ignorance prevails, and where any one class
is made to feel that society is an organized conspiracy to impress, rob and
degrade them, neither persons nor property will be safe. So there's there's still
work to be done. But We've got some good music to leave you with
from a good friend of mine, a co worker, former co worker.
I'm retired now. I brag about that all the time because I like it.
He was a co worker, is also a terrific musician. His album
is a World Like This and it's a really cool rock and roll song called
American Standardsville. I'm your host. Thank you watching for I'll get it right,
hold on, I got it gay, slow down right, I'm gonna
I'm not gonna say viewers. I'm gonna say listeners. Neil, I see
you can't see him, but I can see him smiling. I just got
the thumbs up. How close Now. I want to thank everyone for listening
to be Frank. I'm your host, Frank Lebaro. We'll see you next
week. One drown. What you see in my eyes? Tell me that
it's not a life I was behind. It's fun down, it's the bed.
Something's got to change, something's got to change in my life. The
Summit's gotta change. Something that's gotta change in my life. Someone's gotta change.
And reading the same my life, in my life, in my life,
I can see flash in your eyes. Drop down like that, by
desire. But I am a million mouths from your work under sky. That's
a dressed him by. Someone's gotta change. Something's gotta change in my life.
Something's gotta change. Something that's gotta change in my life. Someone's got
to change. Every is the same in my life and my life, in
my life and my life and my life. Someone's got to change. Someone's
got to change in my life. Someone's got to change. Something's got to
change in my life. Someone's got to change. I decided in my life
and my life and my life, my life, my life. Hells turn
pavement, come to deny. He has glittered with denial. She yes,
I haven't change. To change it to Someone's got to change. Something's got
to change in my life. Someone's gotta change. Something's gotta change in my
life. Someone's gotta change. Everything the same in my life and my life
and my life, in my life, in my life. This is Hudson
River Radio dot com.