1 00:00:14,839 --> 00:00:36,920 Ask Hold Up? What Up? Everybody? Welcome to another episode of Let's 2 00:00:36,960 --> 00:00:40,320 Ask Paul. My name is Paul Abernath. To your host, Welcome to 3 00:00:40,359 --> 00:00:43,399 the podcast. You know you can listen to this podcast to them all of 4 00:00:43,399 --> 00:00:50,119 your favorite listening platforms Sprinker, Spotify, Deezer, iHeartRadio, Apple podcasts, 5 00:00:50,159 --> 00:00:54,560 Google Podcasts. You can even listen on our mobile app that you can download 6 00:00:54,679 --> 00:00:57,799 from our website. Make sure you get that because it's kind of a lot 7 00:00:57,799 --> 00:01:02,159 of other features in there as wells calculators and things like that. It's free. 8 00:01:02,320 --> 00:01:04,760 Just go to one of our websites and you can download it, and 9 00:01:04,840 --> 00:01:08,159 you can, but you can even listen to the podcast directly from your phone 10 00:01:08,200 --> 00:01:12,480 and stream it to any of your Bluetooth devices and your car wherever you and 11 00:01:12,560 --> 00:01:15,359 you get to listen to all the all of the podcasts that we have. 12 00:01:15,879 --> 00:01:21,920 Also, if you just are interested in the Let's Ask Paul podcasts, then 13 00:01:21,920 --> 00:01:25,359 all you gotta do is go to Paul Abernathy dot com. There you can 14 00:01:25,400 --> 00:01:29,920 even listen to podcasts, but you can also put in and get your questions 15 00:01:29,959 --> 00:01:33,599 answered on that platform as well, and it will be answered in an email 16 00:01:33,799 --> 00:01:38,480 or if selected for an upcoming podcast much like the one we're going to do 17 00:01:38,519 --> 00:01:42,120 today, So you know, check that out. If you're interested in getting 18 00:01:42,120 --> 00:01:45,280 some questions answered, you want a trusted source to do their best to try 19 00:01:45,280 --> 00:01:47,920 to give you the answer, then please, by all means check out Paul 20 00:01:47,959 --> 00:01:55,799 Abernathy dot com. Okay, so today's question came to me and it is 21 00:01:55,840 --> 00:01:59,920 from a fast Track student, so full disclaimer, it is a fast Track 22 00:02:00,079 --> 00:02:06,040 students who's in our program and they're working through the program and it's like anything. 23 00:02:06,079 --> 00:02:07,759 You know, you're starting to work and learn all these concepts. You're 24 00:02:07,800 --> 00:02:12,719 preparing for an electrical exam, and then what you do is you visit a 25 00:02:12,759 --> 00:02:16,120 website and you go to a forum and you start seeing people debating something and 26 00:02:16,159 --> 00:02:20,520 now you're not sure who the hell is right. And that is a very 27 00:02:20,639 --> 00:02:24,080 big problem for a student because at this point you're thirsting for the knowledge you're 28 00:02:24,120 --> 00:02:29,240 preparing for an electrical exam. But now you're you're like, okay, damn 29 00:02:29,240 --> 00:02:30,560 it, who's right? Now? Is this guy right? Is this guy 30 00:02:30,680 --> 00:02:35,759 right? Nobody's everybody's arguing, and then some of these names you might recognize, 31 00:02:35,759 --> 00:02:38,039 you're like, well, he's got to be right. And then you 32 00:02:38,080 --> 00:02:40,680 get another decently known in the forum's name, and you're like, well, 33 00:02:40,680 --> 00:02:45,400 that guy says otherwise, how do you know who's right? Opinions being what 34 00:02:45,439 --> 00:02:49,520 they are, everybody's entitled to an opinion, right, Well, I'm gonna 35 00:02:49,520 --> 00:02:52,159 give it a little advice. I'm gonna read this question. Kind of a 36 00:02:52,159 --> 00:02:54,240 long one here, but I'm gonna read it, but I'm going to tell 37 00:02:54,280 --> 00:03:00,759 you that it's it's so important to realize that when you're studying an electrical exam 38 00:03:00,919 --> 00:03:05,120 or you're learning to NYC. The reason we created a structured program is to 39 00:03:05,199 --> 00:03:09,080 learn it as we present it and present your questions to us, and would 40 00:03:09,080 --> 00:03:12,560 be more than happy to try to clarify anything for you. But when you 41 00:03:12,599 --> 00:03:15,319 go venturing out into these other forums where people are freely able to throw up 42 00:03:15,319 --> 00:03:20,560 their opinion and you don't know which one is right, then it can be 43 00:03:20,599 --> 00:03:23,759 pretty confusing for people. So I do remind you it's that old saying, 44 00:03:23,879 --> 00:03:28,400 you know, like, even with the media, believe only a small percentage 45 00:03:28,400 --> 00:03:30,879 of what you see because you never get the backstory. Same thing in these 46 00:03:30,919 --> 00:03:36,879 forums. You never get enough detail to really paint the picture that you want. 47 00:03:36,960 --> 00:03:39,759 And everybody uses slang or says it one way and it just makes it 48 00:03:39,800 --> 00:03:44,759 more difficult. So I'm not I'm not talking down about the use of these 49 00:03:44,759 --> 00:03:49,039 different forums out there because we have our own, the Sparky Hub, but 50 00:03:49,319 --> 00:03:54,879 again, trusted resources. You know, if they're arguing back and forth on 51 00:03:54,919 --> 00:03:59,919 a forum, message board or something, then it's probably best to just walk 52 00:04:00,120 --> 00:04:02,879 away unless you just know the answer and you feel comfortable with it. You're 53 00:04:02,919 --> 00:04:08,639 not going to gain anything from people pounding their chest, right, So my 54 00:04:08,680 --> 00:04:13,680 advice is to stick with your structured course, follow the material, and don't 55 00:04:13,719 --> 00:04:17,600 go down a rabbit hole, right and get into people's opinions and all that. 56 00:04:17,800 --> 00:04:20,879 And you know, as everybody says, well, the code's the interpretation. 57 00:04:21,439 --> 00:04:25,360 Okay, there's some things that are just black and white. There are 58 00:04:25,399 --> 00:04:29,519 certain things you got to have trade knowledge, but then you can go to 59 00:04:29,600 --> 00:04:31,519 different forms and you can really be led down this rabbit hole. And we 60 00:04:31,519 --> 00:04:34,319 don't want you to go down a rabbit hole. Okay, So let me 61 00:04:34,319 --> 00:04:39,040 go and read this question here. I guess it's a question. It's long, 62 00:04:39,160 --> 00:04:42,720 but I'll try to answer it as I go to make a little easy 63 00:04:42,759 --> 00:04:44,560 to break it up for you. So here we go. It says, 64 00:04:44,920 --> 00:04:47,800 hey, Paul had another question, for you, sir, I'm going through 65 00:04:48,000 --> 00:04:53,120 unit five reading right now. And by the way, just for those that 66 00:04:53,160 --> 00:04:55,480 want to know, when he says unit five, he is actually in the 67 00:04:55,519 --> 00:05:01,600 fast Tracks program and Unit five in our program is dealing with race ways and 68 00:05:01,720 --> 00:05:05,480 conductors. So that one is the one that we deal with ampacity correction and 69 00:05:05,560 --> 00:05:11,600 adjustments. Okay, So that's what he's experiencing right now. And so this 70 00:05:11,759 --> 00:05:15,079 generated a question. And of course he spends some leisure time on a forum 71 00:05:15,639 --> 00:05:17,759 and he saw debates and it causes you to confuse it. Hey, that's 72 00:05:17,839 --> 00:05:24,240 normal. That's normal people, you know, see things and read things, 73 00:05:24,279 --> 00:05:27,680 and then it kind of question it and it starts riding around in the brain 74 00:05:27,759 --> 00:05:30,800 and the next thing, you know, you can't sleep and it just makes 75 00:05:30,800 --> 00:05:35,079 it complicated. Or maybe that's just me. Anyway, let me read this, 76 00:05:35,160 --> 00:05:38,639 let me read this. Here it says, had another question for you, 77 00:05:38,680 --> 00:05:42,879 sir, I'm going through Unit five reading right now, and page five 78 00:05:43,000 --> 00:05:48,959 Dash six f referenced in three fifteen dot B five. I'm not so sure 79 00:05:49,120 --> 00:05:55,439 what three fifteen B five is now in the twenty twenty three code, there 80 00:05:55,560 --> 00:06:00,680 is a three fifteen in the code. But you're a fast track, so 81 00:06:00,759 --> 00:06:05,439 You're not in twenty twenty three, so this doesn't exist as it is right 82 00:06:05,480 --> 00:06:11,439 now. So I'm assuming you mean three ten, fifteen or something, but 83 00:06:11,480 --> 00:06:15,920 there is no B five, so I don't believe. So anyway, I'll 84 00:06:15,920 --> 00:06:17,600 try to get I can read enough of this, and I kind of know 85 00:06:17,600 --> 00:06:23,160 where you're going, so I'll help you out here. It says, I 86 00:06:23,279 --> 00:06:28,079 thought I had a pretty solid grasp from what a neutral conductor was, but 87 00:06:28,199 --> 00:06:30,720 I went down a rabbit hole and noticed there were a lot of guys on 88 00:06:31,720 --> 00:06:39,279 Mike Holts Forum arguing that the white grounded conductor on one hundred and twenty volt 89 00:06:39,360 --> 00:06:44,079 residential circuit is not a true neutral. Okay, well, i'll discuss that 90 00:06:45,079 --> 00:06:47,000 again. I don't think you should be getting in that rabbit hole with those 91 00:06:47,000 --> 00:06:50,879 individuals. Nothing wrong with the forum, but there are certain people. They 92 00:06:50,959 --> 00:06:56,040 like to argue things a lot. Unless you know how to who to trust, 93 00:06:56,240 --> 00:06:59,120 you get a bunch of people throwing garbage up there that you're really not 94 00:06:59,240 --> 00:07:01,839 sure who to trust because it's not filtered very well. In fact, the 95 00:07:01,839 --> 00:07:08,720 majority of the people that comment are probably moderators, and you know, there's 96 00:07:08,759 --> 00:07:13,759 only a handful of them that I believe are worth anything anyway. So Augie's 97 00:07:13,800 --> 00:07:16,040 a great moderator, but there's some of them one there that are just not 98 00:07:16,120 --> 00:07:21,079 worth it. They're just there to be a holes and so be careful in 99 00:07:21,120 --> 00:07:25,959 your choice. Not gonna say any things wrong with Mike's forum. He Mike 100 00:07:26,000 --> 00:07:29,920 does a lot of things for the industry, and making this forum makes it 101 00:07:29,959 --> 00:07:32,879 available to people, and it's a great thing to have that discussion, but 102 00:07:33,040 --> 00:07:35,519 not when they're arguing back and forth and all that kind of That's why I 103 00:07:35,560 --> 00:07:39,279 don't go on there anymore. It's just not worth it. I'm a target 104 00:07:39,319 --> 00:07:42,160 anytime I go on there. So it's just, you know, people want 105 00:07:42,160 --> 00:07:44,439 to pound their chests, so I just don't use them. But you use 106 00:07:44,480 --> 00:07:47,040 it. But here's my advice before we get into the rest of this question. 107 00:07:48,639 --> 00:07:51,879 You're studying right now. Any form that you go to, you're going 108 00:07:51,920 --> 00:07:56,839 to be looking at people's opinions. And some people will write it as a 109 00:07:56,879 --> 00:08:01,800 fact that they just believe it, and they may be dead wrong, but 110 00:08:01,920 --> 00:08:05,360 their effort is to convince you that they're right because they don't want to be 111 00:08:05,439 --> 00:08:11,120 wrong. And again, we're just trying to absorb information. You have all 112 00:08:11,160 --> 00:08:16,920 the information you need in your course these outside sources are good to read for 113 00:08:16,000 --> 00:08:20,160 fodder, but at the end of the day, I don't trust the sources. 114 00:08:20,759 --> 00:08:24,920 Very knowledgeable folks on some of these forms. But again I just be 115 00:08:24,040 --> 00:08:28,879 careful. That's why we created the structured program, Okay, in order to 116 00:08:28,920 --> 00:08:33,919 be able to trust people that are in the industry serve on code panels can 117 00:08:33,960 --> 00:08:37,679 get through the weeds and give you what you need. Okay, So keep 118 00:08:37,720 --> 00:08:39,720 focused, keep focused. Now, let me talk about this first part of 119 00:08:39,720 --> 00:08:45,679 this about the one twenty volte residential circuit is not a true ground okay. 120 00:08:45,879 --> 00:08:50,679 So where that has merit is when you go look at the definition of Article 121 00:08:50,759 --> 00:08:54,840 one hundred, right, and we'll go look at the definition. In fact, 122 00:08:54,879 --> 00:08:56,480 i'll just tell you what that definition is. You don't have to go 123 00:08:56,519 --> 00:08:58,879 look it up. I'll go look it up. So when you go look 124 00:09:00,080 --> 00:09:03,639 at what a neutral conductor is. So if we're just talking about one hundred 125 00:09:03,679 --> 00:09:07,480 and twenty volt residential, maybe it's a fourteen two, all right, And 126 00:09:07,559 --> 00:09:09,879 maybe that's that's all we're talking about, just a fourteen two non metallic sheet 127 00:09:09,919 --> 00:09:13,879 cable. And you have a white in there, which is it has to 128 00:09:13,879 --> 00:09:18,879 be white? Kay? As manufacturers of wire and cable. The manufacturers have 129 00:09:18,960 --> 00:09:22,159 to put the white in there. Okay, identifying it as white meets all 130 00:09:22,159 --> 00:09:26,159 the rules and two hundred dot six of the NC. So it's marked as 131 00:09:26,159 --> 00:09:31,440 such. So it's a neutral conductor as far as the ANC's concerned, Right, 132 00:09:31,559 --> 00:09:33,480 that's where your concern should be. Now, when you look at the 133 00:09:33,519 --> 00:09:39,200 definition of neutral conductor, here's what it says. It says a conductor connected 134 00:09:39,519 --> 00:09:43,799 to the neutral point of a system that is intended to carry current under normal 135 00:09:45,519 --> 00:09:52,120 conditions. Right, So that neutral conductor is connected in that branch circuit, 136 00:09:52,159 --> 00:09:54,480 that one twenty volt residential circuit. It is comes back to the panel, 137 00:09:54,519 --> 00:09:58,639 you know, black and white going out with an equipment ground right, The 138 00:09:58,759 --> 00:10:01,320 white comes back, goes to a grounded terminal bus which connects to the grounded 139 00:10:01,320 --> 00:10:05,240 conductor, which goes back up to the neutral point up in the up in 140 00:10:05,279 --> 00:10:09,799 the transformer on the utility side. Right. So that is a neutral conductor. 141 00:10:11,200 --> 00:10:16,559 Now, when they say it's maybe it's it's not a true neutral and 142 00:10:16,799 --> 00:10:22,519 the argument starts to shift to where are we talking about current carrying conductors and 143 00:10:22,559 --> 00:10:24,879 what constitute a neutral When it comes to whether it's counted or not, it's 144 00:10:24,919 --> 00:10:31,080 current carring. So that's a different discussion. I would argue that the it 145 00:10:31,240 --> 00:10:35,000 is a neutral of a one twenty volt residential so it is a neutral. 146 00:10:35,360 --> 00:10:37,679 You can't argue that it's not a neutral. It's a white conductor. The 147 00:10:37,759 --> 00:10:43,799 code says it's a neutral. Okay, So now the argument could be, 148 00:10:43,320 --> 00:10:48,960 we know it's a grounded conductor because of its connection. The argument is whether 149 00:10:48,039 --> 00:10:54,000 or not it's because you know, not all neutrals. Well let me let 150 00:10:54,039 --> 00:10:56,960 me say it this way. All grounded conductors are grounded. They're not all 151 00:10:56,000 --> 00:11:01,159 neutrals. So you could make the argument that the the understanding of what a 152 00:11:01,240 --> 00:11:05,320 neutral is carrying the unbalanced load from the other conductors. You can argue that 153 00:11:05,559 --> 00:11:11,200 that's what a neutral is. But at the end of the day, the 154 00:11:11,240 --> 00:11:13,840 one hundred and twenty volt residential circuit, you can call it not a true 155 00:11:13,879 --> 00:11:18,279 neutral all you want. As far as the code's concerned, that's a neutral 156 00:11:18,279 --> 00:11:20,600 conductor. It meets the definition of a neutral conductor. That's why it's white. 157 00:11:22,360 --> 00:11:26,639 That's why it's gray because it meets the definition of a neutral conductor. 158 00:11:26,080 --> 00:11:31,919 Now, as far as being counted as a current caring conductor in a two 159 00:11:31,960 --> 00:11:35,919 wire circuit, it's it's a moot point, right because in a fourteen two 160 00:11:37,320 --> 00:11:43,159 typical one twenty volt okay, two conductors, what you've got is a black 161 00:11:43,159 --> 00:11:46,000 and a white, and if ten ams are being drawn on the black, 162 00:11:46,000 --> 00:11:48,480 then you're gonna get ten ams on the white, alternating current. Each one 163 00:11:48,480 --> 00:11:52,440 of those conductors are going to carry current. They're intended to carry current, 164 00:11:52,159 --> 00:11:56,399 right, So that's a neutral conductor. The question is whether or not it's 165 00:11:56,440 --> 00:12:01,080 considered a current caring conductor. Well, this one's easy. For fourteen two. 166 00:12:01,559 --> 00:12:07,279 Absolutely it is. I don't even have to hunt the anc to know 167 00:12:07,399 --> 00:12:11,080 that basic principles, is a complete circuit right leaving the breaker, going to 168 00:12:11,159 --> 00:12:15,399 the black, going out to the load, coming back on the white, 169 00:12:15,639 --> 00:12:18,919 connected to the grounded terminal bus, going back up to the exo or the 170 00:12:18,919 --> 00:12:24,080 transformer. That's a completing the cycle, right. So it's it's a neutral 171 00:12:24,080 --> 00:12:26,559 conductor, but it's also current carring. So anytime you have a fourteen two, 172 00:12:28,919 --> 00:12:33,200 then it's current caring. So when we bundle non metallic sheet cables together 173 00:12:33,440 --> 00:12:39,240 like a bunch of fourteen twos together, yes, what they're both current caring 174 00:12:39,279 --> 00:12:41,799 conductors. He treat it as such. That should be a no brainer, 175 00:12:41,879 --> 00:12:48,440 right. Okay, So when you start to think about other conductors and we 176 00:12:48,519 --> 00:12:50,600 get out of the definition of a neutral conductor and we start thinking about, 177 00:12:50,679 --> 00:12:56,279 well, what happens if I have a a four wire y system or I 178 00:12:56,360 --> 00:13:05,840 have a three wire system derived from a four wire y system, What happens 179 00:13:05,879 --> 00:13:11,840 to these conductors? What happens to these neutral conductors that that now are considered 180 00:13:11,639 --> 00:13:18,519 current carrying conductors? And what happens if I have a fourteen three or I 181 00:13:18,559 --> 00:13:22,960 have a twelve three or even a ten three, and I'm sharing a neutral 182 00:13:22,679 --> 00:13:28,679 on a system, is that considered current carring conductor? Doesn't things like that 183 00:13:28,759 --> 00:13:31,799 start to come into the mind, And that's what we cover in the course, 184 00:13:31,600 --> 00:13:35,559 right, So, in all fairness, I'm just going to tell you 185 00:13:35,720 --> 00:13:39,879 that we get past the semantics of whether it's a true neutral or not. 186 00:13:41,600 --> 00:13:46,080 If it's a one twenty vote residential circuit doesn't doesn't matter. It's considered a 187 00:13:46,120 --> 00:13:50,039 neutral, but it's also considered current caring, right, So you're going to 188 00:13:50,159 --> 00:13:54,799 count it as a neutral. But it's also when it comes to in the 189 00:13:54,879 --> 00:13:58,080 number of current carrying conductors in that cable, there's two of them. Makes 190 00:13:58,120 --> 00:14:03,960 sense because the neutrals not carrying any unbalanced load from any other conductor. It's 191 00:14:05,000 --> 00:14:09,600 carrying the full load from its other parallel conductor, right the black. Okay, 192 00:14:09,639 --> 00:14:11,919 so we throw that one kind of the bed. They can argue true 193 00:14:11,919 --> 00:14:15,320 neutral it, This isn't really matter. In fact, that's that's kind of 194 00:14:15,320 --> 00:14:18,600 a dumb argument in a one twenty volt residential circuit. Why even argue that, 195 00:14:20,600 --> 00:14:22,840 you know, code is the code, and maybe they're argue in physics 196 00:14:22,879 --> 00:14:26,440 and science and whatever, who gives a damn, I'm talking about the code, 197 00:14:28,080 --> 00:14:31,720 all right. Next it says it says the way the code reads to 198 00:14:31,840 --> 00:14:37,279 me, I would say that it is the definition for the neutral point lists 199 00:14:37,559 --> 00:14:43,639 the midpoint of a single phase system. Right, So you make that sense. 200 00:14:43,639 --> 00:14:48,000 Now, I will tell you the neutral point it does. It says 201 00:14:48,080 --> 00:14:54,679 the common point on a why connected in a polyphase system, or midpoint on 202 00:14:54,840 --> 00:15:00,799 a single phase three wire system, or midpoint of a single phase a portion 203 00:15:01,399 --> 00:15:07,519 of a three phase delta system, or a midpoint of a three wire direct 204 00:15:07,639 --> 00:15:11,879 current system. Right, and then of course it gives you this little informational 205 00:15:11,960 --> 00:15:16,279 note down here. This kind of just throws that there's those that out at 206 00:15:16,320 --> 00:15:20,799 you other so you know, if I've got a y system, right, 207 00:15:22,039 --> 00:15:24,559 and you know I've got a the way a set up, and I've got 208 00:15:24,600 --> 00:15:30,000 a one twenty two to eight, Well, any one of those phase conductors 209 00:15:30,279 --> 00:15:33,559 okay, of the polyphase system connected to the neutral is going to give me 210 00:15:33,600 --> 00:15:39,279 a reading A to neutral beed and neutral seed and neutral okay, um, 211 00:15:39,679 --> 00:15:45,039 and phase to phase you're gonna get a different reading. But the phase to 212 00:15:45,120 --> 00:15:48,600 neutral is all the same. It's one twenty one twenty one twenty on that 213 00:15:48,679 --> 00:15:54,519 type of system. Okay. So on a three phase or single phase portion 214 00:15:54,759 --> 00:16:00,240 of a three phase delta system, whereas you've got a delta configuration, but 215 00:16:00,360 --> 00:16:07,279 you also have the connection between the two of the phases and it's mid tapped. 216 00:16:07,919 --> 00:16:11,679 That is your neutral point, so that any phase to that neutral point, 217 00:16:11,720 --> 00:16:15,519 so it's a one twenty two forty volte delta. That phase to phase 218 00:16:15,840 --> 00:16:18,960 it's two forty. Any of those phases to the neutral one twenty same from 219 00:16:18,960 --> 00:16:22,279 the other phase of the neutral one twenty. So one of the phases in 220 00:16:22,279 --> 00:16:29,639 the delta is tapped in the center and so that is a neutral conductor. 221 00:16:30,279 --> 00:16:33,639 Right. So you know the same thing is kind of one of those things 222 00:16:33,639 --> 00:16:38,440 where you just go okay, Well, the mid phase the midpoint of a 223 00:16:38,480 --> 00:16:45,240 single phase three wire system. Again, that's kind of the portion of the 224 00:16:45,360 --> 00:16:49,279 delta we're talking about, just the the the single phase portion of that is 225 00:16:49,279 --> 00:16:52,360 three wire. That's what you typically have coming down to your utility to your 226 00:16:52,399 --> 00:16:57,600 house. That's two hots and a neutral. It's a center tap or the 227 00:16:57,720 --> 00:17:03,279 center point of a single phase three wire system. Well, from phase to 228 00:17:03,320 --> 00:17:07,480 neutral, you're gonna get the same voltage ad from each phase to the neutral, 229 00:17:07,599 --> 00:17:10,160 and in phase to phase you're gonna get two forty, but the other 230 00:17:10,240 --> 00:17:12,559 one's going to get one twenty. Okay, makes sense. Those are all 231 00:17:12,599 --> 00:17:18,519 neutral conductors, by the way, kay. And since that's the case, 232 00:17:18,640 --> 00:17:25,359 it's carrying the imbalanced current from phase to phase. Okay, from phase you 233 00:17:25,400 --> 00:17:29,440 know, the different phases to the neutral, it's carrying the unbalanced load, 234 00:17:29,839 --> 00:17:34,920 if you will. So I'm only prepasing this so that we can discuss what 235 00:17:36,039 --> 00:17:38,960 I think you're talking about, because that's what that unit in our fast Tracks 236 00:17:40,000 --> 00:17:45,480 program talks about, is when do you count a neutral as a current carrying 237 00:17:45,519 --> 00:17:48,839 conductor? So I think that's really what the focus is. Even though they're 238 00:17:48,880 --> 00:17:52,359 discussing about a one twenty volt residential circuit, which is again a mood point 239 00:17:53,039 --> 00:17:57,240 because yes, it's considered a neutral by the code, and yes it's a 240 00:17:57,279 --> 00:18:02,640 current carrying conductor because it's not caring any unbalanced load. It is carrying one 241 00:18:02,720 --> 00:18:06,920 hundred percent of the load. So that's why we have rules for the sizing 242 00:18:06,920 --> 00:18:11,599 of the conductors for those small conductors, like for brand circuits and things like 243 00:18:11,640 --> 00:18:15,839 that. Makes sense. So that's why your manufacturers will produce a fourteen two 244 00:18:15,960 --> 00:18:22,039 twelve two ten two and the neutral is exactly the same size as the black. 245 00:18:22,200 --> 00:18:25,039 The white's the same size as the black hy because the same amount of 246 00:18:25,039 --> 00:18:27,200 current drawing on the black is going to be on the white. Makes sense, 247 00:18:27,400 --> 00:18:30,000 So that's total argument. They can argue that until they're blue, it 248 00:18:30,200 --> 00:18:34,839 doesn't really matter. Really, it doesn't matter, right. I just want 249 00:18:34,839 --> 00:18:40,799 to make sure we clarify that now in your unit five D six F CAN 250 00:18:40,880 --> 00:18:45,759 for those that are are that are in our program, it starts to talk 251 00:18:45,799 --> 00:18:49,759 about the correction and adjustments, and again your focus is really when do you 252 00:18:49,799 --> 00:18:52,720 count that neutral conductor as a current current conductor. I think that's what your 253 00:18:52,759 --> 00:18:56,920 real focus is about. Let me read the rest of this question and I'll 254 00:18:56,960 --> 00:19:00,000 just check the boxes just like you say, and we'll go from there. 255 00:19:00,559 --> 00:19:04,559 It says, okay, let me pick up where I was. It says, 256 00:19:04,559 --> 00:19:08,440 the way the code reads to me, I would say that it is 257 00:19:08,720 --> 00:19:12,599 and what he means That he means it is a neutral He says the definition 258 00:19:12,680 --> 00:19:18,640 of a neutral point list the midpoint of a single phase system. So I 259 00:19:18,759 --> 00:19:22,279 check that box, okay, and says also carries current under normal conditions, 260 00:19:22,359 --> 00:19:30,440 absolutely following the definition of the neutral conductor. Says following and following the definition 261 00:19:30,480 --> 00:19:34,240 of a neutral conductor. That checks that box too. I'm used to seeing 262 00:19:34,319 --> 00:19:40,920 some information on the forum that is wrong, and I'm usually able to filter 263 00:19:41,119 --> 00:19:45,039 through it, but I'm getting hung up on this one. Am I missing 264 00:19:45,119 --> 00:19:49,960 something or are these guys just crazy? I don't think they're crazy. I 265 00:19:51,039 --> 00:19:52,759 just think they got a lot of time on their hand to debate an issue 266 00:19:52,799 --> 00:19:56,240 that makes no sense and it doesn't really matter to debate it. That's just 267 00:19:56,279 --> 00:20:00,079 my opinion. Hopefully don't get their feelings hurt, but that's just my opinion 268 00:20:00,119 --> 00:20:03,960 on that. Says again, thanks for your time, man. I'm loving 269 00:20:04,000 --> 00:20:10,119 the program so far and really appreciate having an expert like yourself for the definite 270 00:20:10,160 --> 00:20:15,920 answer. Definitive answer when I needed one. Okay, So hopefully that first 271 00:20:15,920 --> 00:20:19,000 part helps you. There's no reason to argue the one twenty Yes it's a 272 00:20:19,039 --> 00:20:23,119 neutral conductor. Yes, it's a current caring conductor. That's two current caring 273 00:20:23,160 --> 00:20:27,720 conductors in that one twenty VOULT residential circuit. Nobody can debate that. Now 274 00:20:27,720 --> 00:20:32,759 they can debate the semantics of calling it a neutral, but by pure definition, 275 00:20:32,839 --> 00:20:37,599 it is a neutral. Okay. Now let's talk about what you really, 276 00:20:37,720 --> 00:20:41,119 really really are talking about. And because this unit that you're referencing five 277 00:20:41,240 --> 00:20:45,880 dash six F is exactly what it's talking about. What is two are not 278 00:20:48,279 --> 00:20:52,920 what the following are not counted as current caring versus what is counted is current 279 00:20:52,960 --> 00:20:57,039 caring. I think that's the key focus here and the main thing I'll just 280 00:20:57,200 --> 00:21:02,160 draw the attention to because I want to keep it really germane to what you're 281 00:21:02,160 --> 00:21:04,440 talking about, rather than to go in as deep as our program goes into 282 00:21:04,480 --> 00:21:10,920 it. Because our program goes pretty darned deep into this. Let's just kind 283 00:21:10,960 --> 00:21:15,279 of look at the question that you had, and I'm going to take everybody 284 00:21:15,799 --> 00:21:23,640 to three ten fifteen E, and in three ten fifteen E is really focused 285 00:21:25,359 --> 00:21:30,039 on what is considered a current carrying conductor when it comes to the neutral. 286 00:21:30,480 --> 00:21:37,640 Okay, so everybody has their codebook, it's it is three ten fifteen E 287 00:21:37,240 --> 00:21:41,400 and there is a one to two in a three al right, So in 288 00:21:41,440 --> 00:21:49,240 this case it says neutral conductors shall be considered current caring in accordance with any 289 00:21:49,279 --> 00:21:53,279 of the following. Okay, so the first one kind of tells you when 290 00:21:53,319 --> 00:21:57,359 it's not to be considered, and then the other two tells you when to 291 00:21:57,400 --> 00:22:02,880 be considered. And you kind of kind of read between the lines on this 292 00:22:03,160 --> 00:22:07,799 right, because it starts out by saying a number one, A neutral conductor 293 00:22:07,799 --> 00:22:12,759 that carries only the unbalanced current from the other conductors of the same circuits shall 294 00:22:12,839 --> 00:22:17,440 not be required to be counted when applying the provisions of three ten fifteen C 295 00:22:17,599 --> 00:22:21,720 one. So three ten fifteen C one is where again, you have more 296 00:22:21,759 --> 00:22:25,160 than three current current conductors, whether it's in a cable, whether you're bundling 297 00:22:25,160 --> 00:22:26,720 it, whether or not it's in a raceway. When you do that, 298 00:22:26,759 --> 00:22:30,480 you have to make an adjustment to that. Okay. So you're basically to 299 00:22:30,519 --> 00:22:34,599 take a conductor and you're going to reduce its ampacity due to mutual heating because 300 00:22:34,599 --> 00:22:37,759 of the other conductors. You can remember, as currents flowing through these conductors, 301 00:22:38,079 --> 00:22:41,480 it's going to generate heat and you apply that to the ambient temperature. 302 00:22:41,519 --> 00:22:45,319 If you have a bunch of them in a raceway, it's hard to dissipate 303 00:22:45,359 --> 00:22:48,400 that heat. So the other conductors will be affected by that. And ultimately, 304 00:22:48,440 --> 00:22:52,240 at the end of the day, we're trying to protect the insulation so 305 00:22:52,279 --> 00:22:56,759 the temperatures don't rise above the rating of the insulation, and then we start 306 00:22:56,799 --> 00:23:02,599 having breakdowns of insulation and then nothing good happens. When the insulation starts breaking 307 00:23:02,599 --> 00:23:06,759 down, right, nothing good can happen from that. So we do these 308 00:23:06,799 --> 00:23:11,079 adjustments and all that or temperature corrections. We do all this in order to 309 00:23:11,160 --> 00:23:15,599 drop the ampacity so as the heat rises, it kind of protects the thermal 310 00:23:15,680 --> 00:23:19,200 limit of the actual insulation of the product. Okay, So that's why it 311 00:23:19,240 --> 00:23:23,480 takes care of itself, and it's important factors to understand, especially for exam 312 00:23:23,559 --> 00:23:26,960 prep. You gotta known how to do adjustment and corrections, and we go 313 00:23:27,000 --> 00:23:32,039 over this in detail. But you might get a question that wants to know 314 00:23:32,160 --> 00:23:34,680 how many current current conductors you have, and you need to know whether or 315 00:23:34,720 --> 00:23:38,400 not the neutral counts as a current carrent conductor. Well, E one is 316 00:23:38,440 --> 00:23:42,319 telling you when it doesn't count. So if it's us a neutral conductor that 317 00:23:42,359 --> 00:23:48,960 carries all the unbalanced current from other conductors, then it's not to be counted. 318 00:23:48,799 --> 00:23:52,720 What it doesn't say here is what about if it's the neutral conductor that 319 00:23:52,799 --> 00:23:59,079 doesn't carry the unbalanced current, just like our fourteen two, Well, that 320 00:23:59,079 --> 00:24:04,039 should be again given because this only excludes those that carry the unbalanced current from 321 00:24:04,079 --> 00:24:10,200 other conductors. And you all know that you want sometimes people want the code 322 00:24:10,200 --> 00:24:14,440 to say something in black and white, like it's an instruction manual, But 323 00:24:14,599 --> 00:24:18,079 you have to use common sense here. This is excluding those neutral conductors that 324 00:24:18,160 --> 00:24:22,480 carry the unbalanced current. Right, But in a fourteen two, like in 325 00:24:22,519 --> 00:24:27,519 the question, it's carrying the same amount of current as the hot, so 326 00:24:27,599 --> 00:24:32,480 it's not carrying any unbalanced current. It's carrying all the current the same way 327 00:24:33,039 --> 00:24:37,599 because it's a complete system. Now E one is being is talking about an 328 00:24:37,599 --> 00:24:41,799 application where you have a multi wire brand circuit, for example, where you 329 00:24:41,799 --> 00:24:45,240 have the black, the red, and you have a white and the white 330 00:24:45,279 --> 00:24:49,799 is sharing the unbalanced current. So if I'm pulling eight amps I keep it 331 00:24:49,799 --> 00:24:53,920 simple. If I'm pulling ten amps on the black and I'm pulling five amps 332 00:24:53,960 --> 00:24:59,400 on the red, then the offset of that the unbalanced current is going to 333 00:24:59,440 --> 00:25:04,160 be five amps, right, And so that's what the neutral will carry. 334 00:25:04,240 --> 00:25:07,720 If I'm pulling ten on the black and ten on the red, guess what 335 00:25:07,839 --> 00:25:14,640 the current is on the neutral. Zero. That's just how it works in 336 00:25:14,640 --> 00:25:18,839 a sign, your sort of waveform process where you don't have you have a 337 00:25:18,839 --> 00:25:22,880 lot of linear loads, okay, resistive loads. You don't have a big 338 00:25:22,920 --> 00:25:30,440 issue. Okay. Now let's couple that with when you would take something else 339 00:25:30,359 --> 00:25:36,000 and treat it and oh, I should mention I should mention this. This 340 00:25:36,079 --> 00:25:42,039 applies to any brand circuit or feeder or whatnot that is only carrying the unbalanced 341 00:25:42,079 --> 00:25:47,599 current. Then you would not count it as a current carr and conductor. 342 00:25:48,599 --> 00:25:53,240 Okay. So example, I might even be going out to a oh I 343 00:25:53,279 --> 00:25:57,799 don't know, I might be you know, running a you know, an 344 00:25:57,920 --> 00:26:03,519 SCR to something, right, So that neutral is still going to only carry 345 00:26:04,519 --> 00:26:11,480 the unbalanced current from from other conductors, so it does not have to be 346 00:26:11,599 --> 00:26:18,200 counted as a current carrying conductor. Makes sense. But if I were to 347 00:26:18,279 --> 00:26:26,000 run just a two wire to something like an ENEM and it has you know, 348 00:26:26,119 --> 00:26:30,160 then it's one twenty for example. Then guess what the white's going to 349 00:26:30,240 --> 00:26:33,799 carry the same amount as the black. Makes sense, Okay? So now 350 00:26:33,799 --> 00:26:40,200 where this is different is if you look at three ten fifteen E two. 351 00:26:40,799 --> 00:26:45,200 Now E two is different because it says in a three wire circuit consisting of 352 00:26:45,240 --> 00:26:51,920 two phase conductors and a neutral, but they're derived from a four wire three 353 00:26:51,920 --> 00:26:59,160 phase Y connected system, then the neutral conductor carries approximately the same current in 354 00:26:59,200 --> 00:27:04,680 the line to new load currents as the other conductors and shall be counted when 355 00:27:04,799 --> 00:27:07,640 using three ten fifteen C one. So it's a current carrent conductor. So 356 00:27:07,680 --> 00:27:12,359 if I have a four wire three phase Y system, okay, a Y 357 00:27:12,480 --> 00:27:18,640 system, folks, and I'm deriving from it to get a single phase by 358 00:27:18,680 --> 00:27:25,160 taking two phase conductors and a neutral from it, then that neutral conductor is 359 00:27:25,200 --> 00:27:30,799 going to carry approximately the same current as any of the other line conductors. 360 00:27:30,839 --> 00:27:34,480 So therefore I have to treat it as a current carent conductor. So if 361 00:27:34,480 --> 00:27:37,279 I have those conductors in a race way and I'm ask how many current carrent 362 00:27:37,279 --> 00:27:42,599 conductors I have, and I'm counting the conductors, the neutral gets counted in 363 00:27:42,640 --> 00:27:48,000 that system. Okay. Now the next one it says, well, what 364 00:27:48,079 --> 00:27:52,160 if it's a four wire three phase y circuit where the major portion of the 365 00:27:52,200 --> 00:27:56,640 load consists of non linear loads, harmonic currents are present on the neutral, 366 00:27:57,160 --> 00:28:02,920 and that neutral shall be there for considered a current current conductors. So there's 367 00:28:02,960 --> 00:28:07,559 no if or what if there's that's the reality if I've got a building that 368 00:28:07,720 --> 00:28:11,480 is a four wire three phase y system, because remember, if it's a 369 00:28:11,519 --> 00:28:15,599 delta, it's going to be tapping one of the one of the phases, 370 00:28:15,960 --> 00:28:19,240 okay, windings in the middle, and you're just going to be using that 371 00:28:19,319 --> 00:28:25,079 winding. Okay, So and you don't have a neutral in this case, 372 00:28:25,160 --> 00:28:30,680 it's a four wire three phase y configuration and it's going to a building that 373 00:28:30,759 --> 00:28:36,759 has a lot of non linear loads. What are non linear loads? Well, 374 00:28:37,079 --> 00:28:40,599 linear loads like a motor. It's very predictable waveform. Okay, So 375 00:28:40,680 --> 00:28:44,319 the neutral can take the unbalanced or it could even balance out and have no 376 00:28:44,400 --> 00:28:49,960 neutral current. Right if it's a balanced system in a four wire three phase 377 00:28:51,160 --> 00:28:55,640 y circuit, if you had a lot of fluorescent lightings, electronic ballasts, 378 00:28:55,839 --> 00:29:00,640 a lot of adjustable speed drives, variable frequency drives things like that. What 379 00:29:00,799 --> 00:29:03,599 happens is a lot of computers, big office buildings that are four wire, 380 00:29:03,680 --> 00:29:08,960 three phase y systems, and you have a lot of computers, then you 381 00:29:10,039 --> 00:29:15,200 have a lot of harmonics, and harmonics cause the wave form to be distorted 382 00:29:15,279 --> 00:29:18,960 and it's hard for things to cancel out. Okay, use that cancelation theory. 383 00:29:19,079 --> 00:29:22,720 Maybe we'll talk about that, but that's hard to do on a podcast, 384 00:29:22,720 --> 00:29:26,839 so i'll say that for our video. What happens is you don't get 385 00:29:26,839 --> 00:29:32,720 a cancelation effect, and now the neutral is going to be carrying current, 386 00:29:32,839 --> 00:29:36,880 significant amounts of current, so you have to count it as a current current 387 00:29:36,920 --> 00:29:41,359 conductor. You have no choice but to do it. And that's basically exactly 388 00:29:41,400 --> 00:29:48,400 what it says. Okay, so harmonics, harmonic distortion systems, those things 389 00:29:48,440 --> 00:29:51,799 can play havoc and all of a sudden, now you don't have a neutral 390 00:29:51,839 --> 00:29:56,440 that's just carrying the unbalanced load. It's carrying a lot more than that, 391 00:29:56,960 --> 00:30:02,720 and it's got to be considered current. And that's important when you're being asked 392 00:30:02,759 --> 00:30:07,240 questions on an exam, how many current current current current conductors do you have? 393 00:30:07,759 --> 00:30:11,680 Well, the system's going to dictate that, right If it states that 394 00:30:11,880 --> 00:30:15,759 it is three wire circuit derived from a four wire three phase y then that 395 00:30:15,839 --> 00:30:22,279 neutral is going to be considered current carry and when you're ampacity sizing it, 396 00:30:22,279 --> 00:30:27,200 it's probably going to be equal to the size of your hot conductors because it 397 00:30:27,240 --> 00:30:33,960 can carry approximately the same amount. That's important to know when it's a building 398 00:30:34,000 --> 00:30:38,599 and they tell you it's a four wire three phase y system with a lot 399 00:30:38,640 --> 00:30:44,680 of harmonic loads, a lot of non linear loads. Now one thing remembers. 400 00:30:44,720 --> 00:30:48,480 It says where there's a major portion, Okay, what's a major portion? 401 00:30:48,920 --> 00:30:55,039 Anything over fifty percent is a major portion. Okay, So that's going 402 00:30:55,079 --> 00:30:57,279 to be hard for somebody to define. Now on an exam, they just 403 00:30:57,319 --> 00:31:00,720 got to tell you these things right. In the real world takes a little 404 00:31:00,720 --> 00:31:06,079 bit of examination. And that's why engineering drawings for big projects and all they 405 00:31:06,079 --> 00:31:10,200 do a lot of calculations, use software like e tap and all these other 406 00:31:10,240 --> 00:31:14,400 type of design software. At the end of the day, they an exam, 407 00:31:14,440 --> 00:31:18,400 they have to tell you, right, so major portion of the load 408 00:31:18,519 --> 00:31:21,920 means there's a lot of computers, there's a lot of electronic ballots, there's 409 00:31:21,920 --> 00:31:23,799 a lot of variable frequency job and you have to look at it and say, 410 00:31:23,839 --> 00:31:27,240 well, the major portion of the load that's on this system come from 411 00:31:29,000 --> 00:31:37,039 non linear loads. Then guess what that neutral is considered a current carrying conductor, 412 00:31:37,559 --> 00:31:41,279 and you're going to take it into effect when you apply that in three 413 00:31:41,359 --> 00:31:45,960 ten fifteen C one right, And for all you that might listen that are 414 00:31:47,000 --> 00:31:52,160 not in the twenty twenty, then what we're talking about is three ten fifteen 415 00:31:52,319 --> 00:31:56,440 B three A and that's would be your value when it comes to more than 416 00:31:56,480 --> 00:31:59,319 three current carring conductors, that's what you'd be. But as far as the 417 00:31:59,400 --> 00:32:01,839 neutral, it's still the same in either cycle, even the same in twenty 418 00:32:01,880 --> 00:32:07,559 twenty three. I believe that it is three ten fifteen E and that's where 419 00:32:07,599 --> 00:32:12,720 you get the information on a neutral conductor. Okay, all right, So 420 00:32:12,799 --> 00:32:15,960 again I know that's covering a lot of things in a short amount of time. 421 00:32:15,200 --> 00:32:19,640 Hopefully you understand that if anybody has any questions or want me to go 422 00:32:19,720 --> 00:32:22,079 deeper on any of the subjects on this, do me a favor. All 423 00:32:22,119 --> 00:32:27,599 you've got to do is go to Paul Abernathy dot com and let me know 424 00:32:27,640 --> 00:32:31,519 what episode this is and kind of paraphrase what the question was, and make 425 00:32:31,559 --> 00:32:35,599 sure you always remind me the code cycle you're on. The reason he didn't 426 00:32:35,599 --> 00:32:37,920 need to do this for me here is because he said he was a student, 427 00:32:37,960 --> 00:32:40,640 so I knew where he was. And I only have programs on twenty 428 00:32:40,640 --> 00:32:45,319 seventeen and twenty twenty, so obviously I'm looking at the twenty twenty three, 429 00:32:45,400 --> 00:32:50,480 but there's no change that did make it any significance. So but if you're 430 00:32:50,519 --> 00:32:53,039 asking me a question online, make sure you give me the code reference, 431 00:32:53,519 --> 00:32:57,480 not co reference. Make sure you give me the code cycle so I know 432 00:32:57,519 --> 00:33:01,640 where you're at me as much detail as you can. And if you're applying 433 00:33:01,680 --> 00:33:05,400 to one of these podcasts want to give a rebuttal or you want to give 434 00:33:05,440 --> 00:33:07,559 a response, that's fine too. Just make sure you let me know what 435 00:33:07,599 --> 00:33:12,960 episode is and give your comment and I'll either I will most certainly address it 436 00:33:13,000 --> 00:33:15,519 in an email, but I will maybe even pick it up on a future 437 00:33:15,559 --> 00:33:20,519 episode like tonight. All Right, all right, folks, that's all I 438 00:33:20,559 --> 00:33:22,599 got. Thanks for joining me again. Do me a favor. If you 439 00:33:22,680 --> 00:33:27,440 want to learn about the National Metical Code, check out fasttracksystem dot com. 440 00:33:27,440 --> 00:33:30,000 We have a bunch of blogs over there, and I think we even have 441 00:33:30,039 --> 00:33:35,160 a blog on harmonic currents so go check that out. The blogs are free 442 00:33:35,880 --> 00:33:37,880 and we have a bunch of them. They're great reading, so go check 443 00:33:37,920 --> 00:33:39,960 them out. All right, folks, till next time, Stay safe, 444 00:33:40,000 --> 00:34:08,599 God bless them. Boo boost, don't bo