Ask Hold Up? What Up? Everybody? Welcome to another episode of Let's
Ask Paul. My name is Paul Abernath. To your host, Welcome to
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Abernathy dot com. Okay, so today's question came to me and it is
from a fast Track student, so full disclaimer, it is a fast Track
students who's in our program and they're working through the program and it's like anything.
You know, you're starting to work and learn all these concepts. You're
preparing for an electrical exam, and then what you do is you visit a
website and you go to a forum and you start seeing people debating something and
now you're not sure who the hell is right. And that is a very
big problem for a student because at this point you're thirsting for the knowledge you're
preparing for an electrical exam. But now you're you're like, okay, damn
it, who's right? Now? Is this guy right? Is this guy
right? Nobody's everybody's arguing, and then some of these names you might recognize,
you're like, well, he's got to be right. And then you
get another decently known in the forum's name, and you're like, well,
that guy says otherwise, how do you know who's right? Opinions being what
they are, everybody's entitled to an opinion, right, Well, I'm gonna
give it a little advice. I'm gonna read this question. Kind of a
long one here, but I'm gonna read it, but I'm going to tell
you that it's it's so important to realize that when you're studying an electrical exam
or you're learning to NYC. The reason we created a structured program is to
learn it as we present it and present your questions to us, and would
be more than happy to try to clarify anything for you. But when you
go venturing out into these other forums where people are freely able to throw up
their opinion and you don't know which one is right, then it can be
pretty confusing for people. So I do remind you it's that old saying,
you know, like, even with the media, believe only a small percentage
of what you see because you never get the backstory. Same thing in these
forums. You never get enough detail to really paint the picture that you want.
And everybody uses slang or says it one way and it just makes it
more difficult. So I'm not I'm not talking down about the use of these
different forums out there because we have our own, the Sparky Hub, but
again, trusted resources. You know, if they're arguing back and forth on
a forum, message board or something, then it's probably best to just walk
away unless you just know the answer and you feel comfortable with it. You're
not going to gain anything from people pounding their chest, right, So my
advice is to stick with your structured course, follow the material, and don't
go down a rabbit hole, right and get into people's opinions and all that.
And you know, as everybody says, well, the code's the interpretation.
Okay, there's some things that are just black and white. There are
certain things you got to have trade knowledge, but then you can go to
different forms and you can really be led down this rabbit hole. And we
don't want you to go down a rabbit hole. Okay, So let me
go and read this question here. I guess it's a question. It's long,
but I'll try to answer it as I go to make a little easy
to break it up for you. So here we go. It says,
hey, Paul had another question, for you, sir, I'm going through
unit five reading right now. And by the way, just for those that
want to know, when he says unit five, he is actually in the
fast Tracks program and Unit five in our program is dealing with race ways and
conductors. So that one is the one that we deal with ampacity correction and
adjustments. Okay, So that's what he's experiencing right now. And so this
generated a question. And of course he spends some leisure time on a forum
and he saw debates and it causes you to confuse it. Hey, that's
normal. That's normal people, you know, see things and read things,
and then it kind of question it and it starts riding around in the brain
and the next thing, you know, you can't sleep and it just makes
it complicated. Or maybe that's just me. Anyway, let me read this,
let me read this. Here it says, had another question for you,
sir, I'm going through Unit five reading right now, and page five
Dash six f referenced in three fifteen dot B five. I'm not so sure
what three fifteen B five is now in the twenty twenty three code, there
is a three fifteen in the code. But you're a fast track, so
You're not in twenty twenty three, so this doesn't exist as it is right
now. So I'm assuming you mean three ten, fifteen or something, but
there is no B five, so I don't believe. So anyway, I'll
try to get I can read enough of this, and I kind of know
where you're going, so I'll help you out here. It says, I
thought I had a pretty solid grasp from what a neutral conductor was, but
I went down a rabbit hole and noticed there were a lot of guys on
Mike Holts Forum arguing that the white grounded conductor on one hundred and twenty volt
residential circuit is not a true neutral. Okay, well, i'll discuss that
again. I don't think you should be getting in that rabbit hole with those
individuals. Nothing wrong with the forum, but there are certain people. They
like to argue things a lot. Unless you know how to who to trust,
you get a bunch of people throwing garbage up there that you're really not
sure who to trust because it's not filtered very well. In fact, the
majority of the people that comment are probably moderators, and you know, there's
only a handful of them that I believe are worth anything anyway. So Augie's
a great moderator, but there's some of them one there that are just not
worth it. They're just there to be a holes and so be careful in
your choice. Not gonna say any things wrong with Mike's forum. He Mike
does a lot of things for the industry, and making this forum makes it
available to people, and it's a great thing to have that discussion, but
not when they're arguing back and forth and all that kind of That's why I
don't go on there anymore. It's just not worth it. I'm a target
anytime I go on there. So it's just, you know, people want
to pound their chests, so I just don't use them. But you use
it. But here's my advice before we get into the rest of this question.
You're studying right now. Any form that you go to, you're going
to be looking at people's opinions. And some people will write it as a
fact that they just believe it, and they may be dead wrong, but
their effort is to convince you that they're right because they don't want to be
wrong. And again, we're just trying to absorb information. You have all
the information you need in your course these outside sources are good to read for
fodder, but at the end of the day, I don't trust the sources.
Very knowledgeable folks on some of these forms. But again I just be
careful. That's why we created the structured program, Okay, in order to
be able to trust people that are in the industry serve on code panels can
get through the weeds and give you what you need. Okay, So keep
focused, keep focused. Now, let me talk about this first part of
this about the one twenty volte residential circuit is not a true ground okay.
So where that has merit is when you go look at the definition of Article
one hundred, right, and we'll go look at the definition. In fact,
i'll just tell you what that definition is. You don't have to go
look it up. I'll go look it up. So when you go look
at what a neutral conductor is. So if we're just talking about one hundred
and twenty volt residential, maybe it's a fourteen two, all right, And
maybe that's that's all we're talking about, just a fourteen two non metallic sheet
cable. And you have a white in there, which is it has to
be white? Kay? As manufacturers of wire and cable. The manufacturers have
to put the white in there. Okay, identifying it as white meets all
the rules and two hundred dot six of the NC. So it's marked as
such. So it's a neutral conductor as far as the ANC's concerned, Right,
that's where your concern should be. Now, when you look at the
definition of neutral conductor, here's what it says. It says a conductor connected
to the neutral point of a system that is intended to carry current under normal
conditions. Right, So that neutral conductor is connected in that branch circuit,
that one twenty volt residential circuit. It is comes back to the panel,
you know, black and white going out with an equipment ground right, The
white comes back, goes to a grounded terminal bus which connects to the grounded
conductor, which goes back up to the neutral point up in the up in
the transformer on the utility side. Right. So that is a neutral conductor.
Now, when they say it's maybe it's it's not a true neutral and
the argument starts to shift to where are we talking about current carrying conductors and
what constitute a neutral When it comes to whether it's counted or not, it's
current carring. So that's a different discussion. I would argue that the it
is a neutral of a one twenty volt residential so it is a neutral.
You can't argue that it's not a neutral. It's a white conductor. The
code says it's a neutral. Okay, So now the argument could be,
we know it's a grounded conductor because of its connection. The argument is whether
or not it's because you know, not all neutrals. Well let me let
me say it this way. All grounded conductors are grounded. They're not all
neutrals. So you could make the argument that the the understanding of what a
neutral is carrying the unbalanced load from the other conductors. You can argue that
that's what a neutral is. But at the end of the day, the
one hundred and twenty volt residential circuit, you can call it not a true
neutral all you want. As far as the code's concerned, that's a neutral
conductor. It meets the definition of a neutral conductor. That's why it's white.
That's why it's gray because it meets the definition of a neutral conductor.
Now, as far as being counted as a current caring conductor in a two
wire circuit, it's it's a moot point, right because in a fourteen two
typical one twenty volt okay, two conductors, what you've got is a black
and a white, and if ten ams are being drawn on the black,
then you're gonna get ten ams on the white, alternating current. Each one
of those conductors are going to carry current. They're intended to carry current,
right, So that's a neutral conductor. The question is whether or not it's
considered a current caring conductor. Well, this one's easy. For fourteen two.
Absolutely it is. I don't even have to hunt the anc to know
that basic principles, is a complete circuit right leaving the breaker, going to
the black, going out to the load, coming back on the white,
connected to the grounded terminal bus, going back up to the exo or the
transformer. That's a completing the cycle, right. So it's it's a neutral
conductor, but it's also current carring. So anytime you have a fourteen two,
then it's current caring. So when we bundle non metallic sheet cables together
like a bunch of fourteen twos together, yes, what they're both current caring
conductors. He treat it as such. That should be a no brainer,
right. Okay, So when you start to think about other conductors and we
get out of the definition of a neutral conductor and we start thinking about,
well, what happens if I have a a four wire y system or I
have a three wire system derived from a four wire y system, What happens
to these conductors? What happens to these neutral conductors that that now are considered
current carrying conductors? And what happens if I have a fourteen three or I
have a twelve three or even a ten three, and I'm sharing a neutral
on a system, is that considered current carring conductor? Doesn't things like that
start to come into the mind, And that's what we cover in the course,
right, So, in all fairness, I'm just going to tell you
that we get past the semantics of whether it's a true neutral or not.
If it's a one twenty vote residential circuit doesn't doesn't matter. It's considered a
neutral, but it's also considered current caring, right, So you're going to
count it as a neutral. But it's also when it comes to in the
number of current carrying conductors in that cable, there's two of them. Makes
sense because the neutrals not carrying any unbalanced load from any other conductor. It's
carrying the full load from its other parallel conductor, right the black. Okay,
so we throw that one kind of the bed. They can argue true
neutral it, This isn't really matter. In fact, that's that's kind of
a dumb argument in a one twenty volt residential circuit. Why even argue that,
you know, code is the code, and maybe they're argue in physics
and science and whatever, who gives a damn, I'm talking about the code,
all right. Next it says it says the way the code reads to
me, I would say that it is the definition for the neutral point lists
the midpoint of a single phase system. Right, So you make that sense.
Now, I will tell you the neutral point it does. It says
the common point on a why connected in a polyphase system, or midpoint on
a single phase three wire system, or midpoint of a single phase a portion
of a three phase delta system, or a midpoint of a three wire direct
current system. Right, and then of course it gives you this little informational
note down here. This kind of just throws that there's those that out at
you other so you know, if I've got a y system, right,
and you know I've got a the way a set up, and I've got
a one twenty two to eight, Well, any one of those phase conductors
okay, of the polyphase system connected to the neutral is going to give me
a reading A to neutral beed and neutral seed and neutral okay, um,
and phase to phase you're gonna get a different reading. But the phase to
neutral is all the same. It's one twenty one twenty one twenty on that
type of system. Okay. So on a three phase or single phase portion
of a three phase delta system, whereas you've got a delta configuration, but
you also have the connection between the two of the phases and it's mid tapped.
That is your neutral point, so that any phase to that neutral point,
so it's a one twenty two forty volte delta. That phase to phase
it's two forty. Any of those phases to the neutral one twenty same from
the other phase of the neutral one twenty. So one of the phases in
the delta is tapped in the center and so that is a neutral conductor.
Right. So you know the same thing is kind of one of those things
where you just go okay, Well, the mid phase the midpoint of a
single phase three wire system. Again, that's kind of the portion of the
delta we're talking about, just the the the single phase portion of that is
three wire. That's what you typically have coming down to your utility to your
house. That's two hots and a neutral. It's a center tap or the
center point of a single phase three wire system. Well, from phase to
neutral, you're gonna get the same voltage ad from each phase to the neutral,
and in phase to phase you're gonna get two forty, but the other
one's going to get one twenty. Okay, makes sense. Those are all
neutral conductors, by the way, kay. And since that's the case,
it's carrying the imbalanced current from phase to phase. Okay, from phase you
know, the different phases to the neutral, it's carrying the unbalanced load,
if you will. So I'm only prepasing this so that we can discuss what
I think you're talking about, because that's what that unit in our fast Tracks
program talks about, is when do you count a neutral as a current carrying
conductor? So I think that's really what the focus is. Even though they're
discussing about a one twenty volt residential circuit, which is again a mood point
because yes, it's considered a neutral by the code, and yes it's a
current carrying conductor because it's not caring any unbalanced load. It is carrying one
hundred percent of the load. So that's why we have rules for the sizing
of the conductors for those small conductors, like for brand circuits and things like
that. Makes sense. So that's why your manufacturers will produce a fourteen two
twelve two ten two and the neutral is exactly the same size as the black.
The white's the same size as the black hy because the same amount of
current drawing on the black is going to be on the white. Makes sense,
So that's total argument. They can argue that until they're blue, it
doesn't really matter. Really, it doesn't matter, right. I just want
to make sure we clarify that now in your unit five D six F CAN
for those that are are that are in our program, it starts to talk
about the correction and adjustments, and again your focus is really when do you
count that neutral conductor as a current current conductor. I think that's what your
real focus is about. Let me read the rest of this question and I'll
just check the boxes just like you say, and we'll go from there.
It says, okay, let me pick up where I was. It says,
the way the code reads to me, I would say that it is
and what he means That he means it is a neutral He says the definition
of a neutral point list the midpoint of a single phase system. So I
check that box, okay, and says also carries current under normal conditions,
absolutely following the definition of the neutral conductor. Says following and following the definition
of a neutral conductor. That checks that box too. I'm used to seeing
some information on the forum that is wrong, and I'm usually able to filter
through it, but I'm getting hung up on this one. Am I missing
something or are these guys just crazy? I don't think they're crazy. I
just think they got a lot of time on their hand to debate an issue
that makes no sense and it doesn't really matter to debate it. That's just
my opinion. Hopefully don't get their feelings hurt, but that's just my opinion
on that. Says again, thanks for your time, man. I'm loving
the program so far and really appreciate having an expert like yourself for the definite
answer. Definitive answer when I needed one. Okay, So hopefully that first
part helps you. There's no reason to argue the one twenty Yes it's a
neutral conductor. Yes, it's a current caring conductor. That's two current caring
conductors in that one twenty VOULT residential circuit. Nobody can debate that. Now
they can debate the semantics of calling it a neutral, but by pure definition,
it is a neutral. Okay. Now let's talk about what you really,
really really are talking about. And because this unit that you're referencing five
dash six F is exactly what it's talking about. What is two are not
what the following are not counted as current caring versus what is counted is current
caring. I think that's the key focus here and the main thing I'll just
draw the attention to because I want to keep it really germane to what you're
talking about, rather than to go in as deep as our program goes into
it. Because our program goes pretty darned deep into this. Let's just kind
of look at the question that you had, and I'm going to take everybody
to three ten fifteen E, and in three ten fifteen E is really focused
on what is considered a current carrying conductor when it comes to the neutral.
Okay, so everybody has their codebook, it's it is three ten fifteen E
and there is a one to two in a three al right, So in
this case it says neutral conductors shall be considered current caring in accordance with any
of the following. Okay, so the first one kind of tells you when
it's not to be considered, and then the other two tells you when to
be considered. And you kind of kind of read between the lines on this
right, because it starts out by saying a number one, A neutral conductor
that carries only the unbalanced current from the other conductors of the same circuits shall
not be required to be counted when applying the provisions of three ten fifteen C
one. So three ten fifteen C one is where again, you have more
than three current current conductors, whether it's in a cable, whether you're bundling
it, whether or not it's in a raceway. When you do that,
you have to make an adjustment to that. Okay. So you're basically to
take a conductor and you're going to reduce its ampacity due to mutual heating because
of the other conductors. You can remember, as currents flowing through these conductors,
it's going to generate heat and you apply that to the ambient temperature.
If you have a bunch of them in a raceway, it's hard to dissipate
that heat. So the other conductors will be affected by that. And ultimately,
at the end of the day, we're trying to protect the insulation so
the temperatures don't rise above the rating of the insulation, and then we start
having breakdowns of insulation and then nothing good happens. When the insulation starts breaking
down, right, nothing good can happen from that. So we do these
adjustments and all that or temperature corrections. We do all this in order to
drop the ampacity so as the heat rises, it kind of protects the thermal
limit of the actual insulation of the product. Okay, So that's why it
takes care of itself, and it's important factors to understand, especially for exam
prep. You gotta known how to do adjustment and corrections, and we go
over this in detail. But you might get a question that wants to know
how many current current conductors you have, and you need to know whether or
not the neutral counts as a current carrent conductor. Well, E one is
telling you when it doesn't count. So if it's us a neutral conductor that
carries all the unbalanced current from other conductors, then it's not to be counted.
What it doesn't say here is what about if it's the neutral conductor that
doesn't carry the unbalanced current, just like our fourteen two, Well, that
should be again given because this only excludes those that carry the unbalanced current from
other conductors. And you all know that you want sometimes people want the code
to say something in black and white, like it's an instruction manual, But
you have to use common sense here. This is excluding those neutral conductors that
carry the unbalanced current. Right, But in a fourteen two, like in
the question, it's carrying the same amount of current as the hot, so
it's not carrying any unbalanced current. It's carrying all the current the same way
because it's a complete system. Now E one is being is talking about an
application where you have a multi wire brand circuit, for example, where you
have the black, the red, and you have a white and the white
is sharing the unbalanced current. So if I'm pulling eight amps I keep it
simple. If I'm pulling ten amps on the black and I'm pulling five amps
on the red, then the offset of that the unbalanced current is going to
be five amps, right, And so that's what the neutral will carry.
If I'm pulling ten on the black and ten on the red, guess what
the current is on the neutral. Zero. That's just how it works in
a sign, your sort of waveform process where you don't have you have a
lot of linear loads, okay, resistive loads. You don't have a big
issue. Okay. Now let's couple that with when you would take something else
and treat it and oh, I should mention I should mention this. This
applies to any brand circuit or feeder or whatnot that is only carrying the unbalanced
current. Then you would not count it as a current carr and conductor.
Okay. So example, I might even be going out to a oh I
don't know, I might be you know, running a you know, an
SCR to something, right, So that neutral is still going to only carry
the unbalanced current from from other conductors, so it does not have to be
counted as a current carrying conductor. Makes sense. But if I were to
run just a two wire to something like an ENEM and it has you know,
then it's one twenty for example. Then guess what the white's going to
carry the same amount as the black. Makes sense, Okay? So now
where this is different is if you look at three ten fifteen E two.
Now E two is different because it says in a three wire circuit consisting of
two phase conductors and a neutral, but they're derived from a four wire three
phase Y connected system, then the neutral conductor carries approximately the same current in
the line to new load currents as the other conductors and shall be counted when
using three ten fifteen C one. So it's a current carrent conductor. So
if I have a four wire three phase Y system, okay, a Y
system, folks, and I'm deriving from it to get a single phase by
taking two phase conductors and a neutral from it, then that neutral conductor is
going to carry approximately the same current as any of the other line conductors.
So therefore I have to treat it as a current carent conductor. So if
I have those conductors in a race way and I'm ask how many current carrent
conductors I have, and I'm counting the conductors, the neutral gets counted in
that system. Okay. Now the next one it says, well, what
if it's a four wire three phase y circuit where the major portion of the
load consists of non linear loads, harmonic currents are present on the neutral,
and that neutral shall be there for considered a current current conductors. So there's
no if or what if there's that's the reality if I've got a building that
is a four wire three phase y system, because remember, if it's a
delta, it's going to be tapping one of the one of the phases,
okay, windings in the middle, and you're just going to be using that
winding. Okay, So and you don't have a neutral in this case,
it's a four wire three phase y configuration and it's going to a building that
has a lot of non linear loads. What are non linear loads? Well,
linear loads like a motor. It's very predictable waveform. Okay, So
the neutral can take the unbalanced or it could even balance out and have no
neutral current. Right if it's a balanced system in a four wire three phase
y circuit, if you had a lot of fluorescent lightings, electronic ballasts,
a lot of adjustable speed drives, variable frequency drives things like that. What
happens is a lot of computers, big office buildings that are four wire,
three phase y systems, and you have a lot of computers, then you
have a lot of harmonics, and harmonics cause the wave form to be distorted
and it's hard for things to cancel out. Okay, use that cancelation theory.
Maybe we'll talk about that, but that's hard to do on a podcast,
so i'll say that for our video. What happens is you don't get
a cancelation effect, and now the neutral is going to be carrying current,
significant amounts of current, so you have to count it as a current current
conductor. You have no choice but to do it. And that's basically exactly
what it says. Okay, so harmonics, harmonic distortion systems, those things
can play havoc and all of a sudden, now you don't have a neutral
that's just carrying the unbalanced load. It's carrying a lot more than that,
and it's got to be considered current. And that's important when you're being asked
questions on an exam, how many current current current current conductors do you have?
Well, the system's going to dictate that, right If it states that
it is three wire circuit derived from a four wire three phase y then that
neutral is going to be considered current carry and when you're ampacity sizing it,
it's probably going to be equal to the size of your hot conductors because it
can carry approximately the same amount. That's important to know when it's a building
and they tell you it's a four wire three phase y system with a lot
of harmonic loads, a lot of non linear loads. Now one thing remembers.
It says where there's a major portion, Okay, what's a major portion?
Anything over fifty percent is a major portion. Okay, So that's going
to be hard for somebody to define. Now on an exam, they just
got to tell you these things right. In the real world takes a little
bit of examination. And that's why engineering drawings for big projects and all they
do a lot of calculations, use software like e tap and all these other
type of design software. At the end of the day, they an exam,
they have to tell you, right, so major portion of the load
means there's a lot of computers, there's a lot of electronic ballots, there's
a lot of variable frequency job and you have to look at it and say,
well, the major portion of the load that's on this system come from
non linear loads. Then guess what that neutral is considered a current carrying conductor,
and you're going to take it into effect when you apply that in three
ten fifteen C one right, And for all you that might listen that are
not in the twenty twenty, then what we're talking about is three ten fifteen
B three A and that's would be your value when it comes to more than
three current carring conductors, that's what you'd be. But as far as the
neutral, it's still the same in either cycle, even the same in twenty
twenty three. I believe that it is three ten fifteen E and that's where
you get the information on a neutral conductor. Okay, all right, So
again I know that's covering a lot of things in a short amount of time.
Hopefully you understand that if anybody has any questions or want me to go
deeper on any of the subjects on this, do me a favor. All
you've got to do is go to Paul Abernathy dot com and let me know
what episode this is and kind of paraphrase what the question was, and make
sure you always remind me the code cycle you're on. The reason he didn't
need to do this for me here is because he said he was a student,
so I knew where he was. And I only have programs on twenty
seventeen and twenty twenty, so obviously I'm looking at the twenty twenty three,
but there's no change that did make it any significance. So but if you're
asking me a question online, make sure you give me the code reference,
not co reference. Make sure you give me the code cycle so I know
where you're at me as much detail as you can. And if you're applying
to one of these podcasts want to give a rebuttal or you want to give
a response, that's fine too. Just make sure you let me know what
episode is and give your comment and I'll either I will most certainly address it
in an email, but I will maybe even pick it up on a future
episode like tonight. All Right, all right, folks, that's all I
got. Thanks for joining me again. Do me a favor. If you
want to learn about the National Metical Code, check out fasttracksystem dot com.
We have a bunch of blogs over there, and I think we even have
a blog on harmonic currents so go check that out. The blogs are free
and we have a bunch of them. They're great reading, so go check
them out. All right, folks, till next time, Stay safe,
God bless them. Boo boost, don't bo