1 00:00:01,120 --> 00:00:07,280 You're listening to the Mind over Murder podcast. My name is Bill Thomas. 2 00:00:07,799 --> 00:00:12,080 I'm a writer, consulting, producer, and now podcaster. I am now 3 00:00:12,119 --> 00:00:16,039 trying to use my experience as the brother of a murder victim to help other 4 00:00:16,120 --> 00:00:20,280 victims of violent crime. I'm working on a book on the unsolved Colonial Parkway 5 00:00:20,359 --> 00:00:24,640 murders, and I'm the co administrator of the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook group together 6 00:00:24,719 --> 00:00:28,519 with Kristin Dilly. My name is Kristin Dilly. I'm a writer, a 7 00:00:28,559 --> 00:00:32,479 researcher, a teacher, and a victim's advocate, as well as the social 8 00:00:32,520 --> 00:00:37,799 media manager and co administrator for the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook page with my partner 9 00:00:37,840 --> 00:00:50,240 in crime, Bill Thomas. Welcome to Mind Ever Murderer. I'm Kristin Dilly 10 00:00:50,320 --> 00:00:55,520 and I'm Bill Thomas, and we're joined today by Renee Williams of the National 11 00:00:55,719 --> 00:01:00,000 Center for Victims of Crime or Renee. Thank you so much for joining us 12 00:01:00,000 --> 00:01:03,200 today. I Mind Never Murderer, absolutely, thank you for having me. 13 00:01:03,880 --> 00:01:07,599 Can you go ahead and start by telling us a little bit about your educational 14 00:01:07,599 --> 00:01:12,680 and professional background, how you got into this particular role at NCVC. It's 15 00:01:12,719 --> 00:01:19,200 been a slightly circuitous route here. I actually started as a theater major in 16 00:01:19,319 --> 00:01:23,280 undergrad and my degree actually says acting. That was in Pittsburgh. But while 17 00:01:23,280 --> 00:01:29,079 I was in acting school, I realized that was not the way I wanted 18 00:01:29,120 --> 00:01:30,959 to use the talents that I had been given and spend the rest of my 19 00:01:32,000 --> 00:01:34,400 life. So I went to law school after that and graduated from the University 20 00:01:34,439 --> 00:01:41,959 of Pittsburgh grapesed around for a while in corporate law and in litigation before becoming 21 00:01:42,200 --> 00:01:47,280 a nonprofit executive. And I started out at an organization called Laurel Legal Services 22 00:01:47,319 --> 00:01:51,879 in Pennsylvania and ended up coming to the National Center for Victims of Crime. 23 00:01:52,000 --> 00:01:55,159 So what I do now is a little bit of a blend of both my 24 00:01:55,239 --> 00:02:00,879 legal studies but also nonprofit management. And for anybody who does not know about 25 00:02:00,920 --> 00:02:05,959 the National Center for Victims of Crime, can you tell us a little bit 26 00:02:06,000 --> 00:02:10,280 about what services it offers and how it actually got started. Sure, So, 27 00:02:10,319 --> 00:02:14,759 I think for your podcast listeners, I'll take the second part of the 28 00:02:14,840 --> 00:02:19,919 question first because it'll be a little more interesting. We actually were founded by 29 00:02:19,960 --> 00:02:23,520 one of the true crime drama in the United States, which was the Sunny 30 00:02:23,599 --> 00:02:29,719 Bombuloh case. Sonny was a very wealthy Eres. She was also royalty. 31 00:02:29,840 --> 00:02:35,039 She had married a prince, and her second husband, Klaud Bambuloh, attempted 32 00:02:35,080 --> 00:02:38,240 to kill her by injecting her with insulin. He was having multiple affairs. 33 00:02:38,680 --> 00:02:45,439 Their story is actually hold in a movie called A Reversal of Fortune. Jeremy 34 00:02:45,479 --> 00:02:51,039 Irons won his first Academy Award for it. He played Claud Bambulah and Glenn 35 00:02:51,039 --> 00:02:54,080 Cloth played Sonny Bombuloh. But really the good part of the story is that 36 00:02:54,120 --> 00:02:59,319 Sonny's children were so appalled by how they were treated throughout the justice system. 37 00:02:59,319 --> 00:03:02,840 Because this is really before victim's rights were a movement. They took all of 38 00:03:02,879 --> 00:03:07,000 their inheritance to found our center. So it was originally the Sunny Vombulo Victims 39 00:03:07,080 --> 00:03:12,639 Center, and it's developed. We've gone under three name changes, I believe 40 00:03:12,759 --> 00:03:15,599 to become the National Center for Victims of Crime. But we really started as 41 00:03:15,639 --> 00:03:20,800 one of the first advocacy organizations in the United States to make sure that victims 42 00:03:20,800 --> 00:03:23,080 had a voice in the justice system and that they had rights and that those 43 00:03:23,159 --> 00:03:30,400 rights were acknowledged. So we've developed from that advocacy center to providing victim services 44 00:03:30,400 --> 00:03:34,479 as well. So we still provide some advocacy, but we also make sure 45 00:03:34,560 --> 00:03:38,599 that we have two hotlines for victims, so we're providing direct victim services, 46 00:03:38,639 --> 00:03:43,000 and we also train anybody who helps a victim in the justice system, so 47 00:03:43,080 --> 00:03:46,719 judges, police officers, anybody who sees a victim or is helping the victims 48 00:03:46,719 --> 00:03:51,560 through that justice process, we're in their training them, making sure they're trauma 49 00:03:51,599 --> 00:03:59,199 informed. When we talk about looking for podcasts and other media outlets to be 50 00:03:59,599 --> 00:04:03,800 victim focused and survivor focused, you all are actually taking this from a much 51 00:04:03,879 --> 00:04:11,560 broader perspective, which is all of the components and participants in the justice system 52 00:04:11,960 --> 00:04:14,919 all need to be thinking about this. Are we on the right track? 53 00:04:15,560 --> 00:04:19,240 So our true crime work is only a small piece of the work we do, 54 00:04:19,680 --> 00:04:25,360 and it actually just sprung up in the past two years. Really one 55 00:04:25,399 --> 00:04:30,120 of our strongest suits is making sure that we are working with all victim services 56 00:04:30,360 --> 00:04:34,600 to make sure that they are not doing more harm to victims in the long 57 00:04:34,680 --> 00:04:42,800 run. When you say they RENEE, who's the they you're referencing judges, 58 00:04:43,000 --> 00:04:49,000 prosecutors, police officers. It's interesting because there are a lot of times and 59 00:04:49,040 --> 00:04:51,920 this is not answering your question, but it's going off on a tangent on 60 00:04:51,959 --> 00:04:57,120 my own. I will keep under control later, but we're going to talk 61 00:04:57,120 --> 00:04:59,920 about this right now. There are a lot of times that you will hear 62 00:05:00,160 --> 00:05:03,800 people say a victim's voice is involved, and it's not truly. Prosecutors do 63 00:05:03,839 --> 00:05:08,920 amazing work. They work very hard. They're an integral part of the justice 64 00:05:08,920 --> 00:05:15,000 system, but they do not represent victims, either officially in their formal tasks 65 00:05:15,000 --> 00:05:17,120 of being a prosecutor, but also unofficially. So a lot of times, 66 00:05:17,199 --> 00:05:21,759 if you're watching true crime shows or in policy decisions, folks will say, 67 00:05:21,759 --> 00:05:27,000 we talk to the victims because the prosecutors stepped in. Prosecutors are not trained 68 00:05:27,040 --> 00:05:30,879 to be victims centered, and their job is not to represent victims. Their 69 00:05:30,000 --> 00:05:36,240 job is to ensure that justice is done, and so that sometimes means not 70 00:05:36,439 --> 00:05:41,920 prosecuting a case. That sometimes means making decisions that are adverse to what the 71 00:05:42,000 --> 00:05:47,839 victims might like. Police officers are the same way, and sometimes folks see 72 00:05:48,079 --> 00:05:51,759 those two elements as being victims centered, but they're not. And so we 73 00:05:51,839 --> 00:05:57,839 do a lot of the training on how those specific groups and really anybody within 74 00:05:57,879 --> 00:06:04,000 the justice system can work with victims in a more meaningful way. At INCVC, 75 00:06:04,279 --> 00:06:10,439 you have a vast array of resources that are available for anyone who's been 76 00:06:10,439 --> 00:06:15,160 a victim of crime, and that's either directly, like my podcast partner here, 77 00:06:15,399 --> 00:06:18,199 a secondary victim because he had a family member who was victimized. So 78 00:06:18,279 --> 00:06:24,360 what are some of the things that you, as a nonprofit can offer to 79 00:06:24,560 --> 00:06:28,879 crime victims when they reach out to ENDCBC. Again, we do have the 80 00:06:28,920 --> 00:06:32,279 two hotlines, one is DC based and one is national, and we have 81 00:06:32,759 --> 00:06:38,319 not a dozen victim assistant specialists who are trained to walk somebody through. We 82 00:06:38,360 --> 00:06:43,040 can do safety planning, we can point them to resources, we can explain 83 00:06:43,639 --> 00:06:46,040 the laws and regulations in their state to them, and we can also do 84 00:06:46,120 --> 00:06:53,319 warm handoffs two more local resources. We also have an attorney referral service that 85 00:06:53,439 --> 00:06:58,079 is available where we do try to connect victims to civil attorneys if they'd like 86 00:06:58,120 --> 00:07:00,600 to pursue a lawsuit. And then and again, a large part of what 87 00:07:00,639 --> 00:07:05,240 we do is training other folks who interact with victims to make sure that there 88 00:07:05,319 --> 00:07:11,360 is a consistent victim experience. One of the things that a lot of crime 89 00:07:11,439 --> 00:07:16,199 victims in their families may not realize that they have is a set of rights 90 00:07:16,480 --> 00:07:25,199 accorded to them through the Crime Victims' Rights Act. Can you discuss what are 91 00:07:25,240 --> 00:07:30,279 some of those rights that all crime victims are afforded and what can NCVC do 92 00:07:30,399 --> 00:07:34,680 to help someone who feels that maybe those rights have been violated or not upheld 93 00:07:34,680 --> 00:07:40,959 to the greatest standard that they could be. So the rights that are codified 94 00:07:41,079 --> 00:07:46,839 are really, unfortunately only applicable within the justice system if there is a prosecution. 95 00:07:47,120 --> 00:07:51,360 By and large, those surround the right to be notified and the right 96 00:07:51,399 --> 00:07:55,560 to be present. You have to remember before the eighties, a lot of 97 00:07:55,600 --> 00:08:00,040 times victims and their families were only viewed as witnesses. Drag somebody in and 98 00:08:00,240 --> 00:08:03,360 let them do a testify, and then they trapes them out. They didn't 99 00:08:03,399 --> 00:08:09,240 necessarily have the right to be present at all hearings. We still see quite 100 00:08:09,279 --> 00:08:13,519 a bit of trapesing over crime victims' rights when it involves the notification of a 101 00:08:13,600 --> 00:08:16,600 release. So if your perpetrator is being released, you do have a right 102 00:08:16,639 --> 00:08:20,600 to be notified. That often doesn't happen, And where it came up very 103 00:08:20,639 --> 00:08:26,480 publicly recently is in the anansied case. So that case was overturned. It 104 00:08:26,680 --> 00:08:33,279 wasn't overturned on anything other than the victim's family was never notified that the court 105 00:08:33,360 --> 00:08:37,679 was taking this action. That is an absolute core tenant. They have a 106 00:08:37,759 --> 00:08:39,559 right to be heard and they have a right to be present. Now, 107 00:08:39,600 --> 00:08:45,159 what NCBC can do if individuals feel like these rights are being violated is if 108 00:08:45,159 --> 00:08:48,039 they call, we can try to point them in the direction of where they 109 00:08:48,039 --> 00:08:52,639 can go. We can try to give them language surrounding what they need to 110 00:08:52,679 --> 00:08:58,840 say to trigger those rights. Unfortunately, our justice system still isn't set up 111 00:08:58,879 --> 00:09:03,519 for victims. So even with all of these rights, that doesn't mean that 112 00:09:03,879 --> 00:09:09,159 they're going to be enforced, and there's no overarching oversight bodies. So I 113 00:09:09,200 --> 00:09:13,799 get a lot of emails with people saying this is happening to me and you 114 00:09:13,799 --> 00:09:18,720 should punish them. I don't have that mechanism, and unfortunately very few things 115 00:09:18,759 --> 00:09:22,559 do. There are appeals courts where you can try to enforce rights, and 116 00:09:22,639 --> 00:09:26,799 in certain cases they're ethics panels, but otherwise it's still tough to make sure 117 00:09:26,799 --> 00:09:31,279 they're enforced if they're being violated. How the heck do stuff like this happened 118 00:09:31,320 --> 00:09:39,320 Renee? Why are victims and survivors family members completely forgotten in this process? 119 00:09:39,399 --> 00:09:43,480 I think there are two answers. First, is we have a constitution that 120 00:09:43,960 --> 00:09:48,879 is based in defendance rights. And I don't disagree that's correct, but I 121 00:09:48,919 --> 00:09:56,159 think that we've let the pendulum fly way too far onto that side. And 122 00:09:56,440 --> 00:10:00,440 there's a wonderful meme out right now. It's talking about women rights, but 123 00:10:00,480 --> 00:10:03,519 it actually applies to victim's rights too, And when it says women's rights, 124 00:10:03,559 --> 00:10:07,399 it shows the pie chart and it says, just because somebody else has rights, 125 00:10:07,399 --> 00:10:09,159 doesn't mean you have rights taken away. This is not a pie. 126 00:10:09,559 --> 00:10:13,279 There's not less rights for you. And I think it's the same thing with 127 00:10:13,360 --> 00:10:18,080 victims rights. But people don't quite understand that rights in the justice system aren't 128 00:10:18,120 --> 00:10:22,120 a pie. Making sure that victim's rights are enforced doesn't mean you take defendants 129 00:10:22,200 --> 00:10:24,399 rights away. But a lot of people don't see it like that, and 130 00:10:24,440 --> 00:10:28,399 so there's been a real focus on defendants rights. And I will say the 131 00:10:28,559 --> 00:10:33,080 other issue we're seeing and it is where I can really jork out, So 132 00:10:33,240 --> 00:10:35,600 stop me, give me the signal, and you want to set That's been 133 00:10:35,600 --> 00:10:39,759 a lot of this topic for ten years, and I'm passionate about it. 134 00:10:41,000 --> 00:10:43,720 We have this thing called the justice gap in the United States, and it's 135 00:10:45,000 --> 00:10:46,960 when are you poor enough to get a lawyer? And when are you rich 136 00:10:48,080 --> 00:10:50,440 enough to get a lawyer? And when you're very poor, when does the 137 00:10:50,480 --> 00:10:54,919 lawyer attached? All criminal defendants get a lawyer. Not going to sit here 138 00:10:54,960 --> 00:10:58,440 and argue about how great they are. I know, I've heard it all. 139 00:10:58,519 --> 00:11:01,480 I've seen bad public defe I've seen great public defenders. Doesn't matter. 140 00:11:01,480 --> 00:11:05,360 If you've committed a crime, you get a public defender. Victims don't ever 141 00:11:05,399 --> 00:11:09,120 get an attorney, first of all, but also we don't get any attorney 142 00:11:09,120 --> 00:11:15,960 in the civil justice system, So victims of domestic violence don't necessarily get an 143 00:11:16,000 --> 00:11:20,799 attorney. And it matters on how poor you are. And so until that 144 00:11:22,200 --> 00:11:26,559 justice gap is addressed, until victims get representation in court, their rights are 145 00:11:26,559 --> 00:11:35,000 still going to be at play and possibly ignored. If you were queen of 146 00:11:35,039 --> 00:11:39,799 the justice system running the world, whatever you want to call it, and 147 00:11:39,879 --> 00:11:46,759 you could add some rights that all victims are guaranteed. What are some of 148 00:11:46,799 --> 00:11:52,200 the things that you would want to add that every victim is guaranteed no matter 149 00:11:52,240 --> 00:11:54,879 what. The funny thing is, I think those rights are already there and 150 00:11:54,879 --> 00:12:00,080 they're codified. They're just not followed. Okay, that is the right to 151 00:11:58,840 --> 00:12:03,320 have notice of any proceedings. That is, the right to be present at 152 00:12:03,360 --> 00:12:07,679 all hearings and to at least know what is happening. The only thing I 153 00:12:07,679 --> 00:12:13,799 would add would be the right to have a voice in all proceedings. I 154 00:12:13,840 --> 00:12:16,759 don't know how we would make that happen, because a prosecutor, again does 155 00:12:16,799 --> 00:12:20,320 not represent the victim. They represent the state, and in a criminal case, 156 00:12:20,559 --> 00:12:24,240 that's going to be tough. But it's that a lot of the actual 157 00:12:24,480 --> 00:12:28,559 laws are already there. It's just enacting them and making sure that they are 158 00:12:28,600 --> 00:12:31,960 observed. Just as a quick follow up to that, I know Bill wants 159 00:12:31,960 --> 00:12:37,480 to turn here in a second. Do you feel like victim's impact statements in 160 00:12:37,519 --> 00:12:41,399 the courtroom? Is that enough of a voice or does there need to be 161 00:12:41,440 --> 00:12:46,120 more opportunities for victims to have voices? There need to be way more opportunities. 162 00:12:46,519 --> 00:12:52,759 Victim impact statements are great. They certainly allow the victim a way to 163 00:12:52,879 --> 00:12:56,240 heal and tell their story, and we've seen a lot of the victim impact 164 00:12:56,279 --> 00:13:00,679 statements do good. However, keep in mind and that's at the end of 165 00:13:00,720 --> 00:13:03,120 a trial. So I think victims need to have a right to have a 166 00:13:03,240 --> 00:13:07,480 voice at the very beginning of a trial. Is this plea bargain? Good? 167 00:13:09,200 --> 00:13:13,720 Do I agree with it? And that's where they're kept out. I'm 168 00:13:13,720 --> 00:13:18,000 going to speak for myself here. We haven't had a single arrest yet in 169 00:13:18,039 --> 00:13:26,240 the Colonial Parkway murders. But even in discussing theoreticals which make me crazy to 170 00:13:26,320 --> 00:13:35,080 start with the pushback from the FBI against family participation or input, or even 171 00:13:35,120 --> 00:13:41,279 my sharing my thoughts, it feels like such a brick wall that the idea 172 00:13:41,559 --> 00:13:46,799 that, for instance, if charges are ever brought in our case, it's 173 00:13:46,919 --> 00:13:52,399 likely that there could be federal charges because at least two of the double homicides 174 00:13:52,440 --> 00:13:56,960 happened inside a national park and therefore would be federal charges. And then two 175 00:13:58,000 --> 00:14:03,399 of the double homicides in the Colonial Parkway happened outside a national park and therefore 176 00:14:03,440 --> 00:14:09,120 would likely be state or local charges. When I've even mentioned the possibility of 177 00:14:09,240 --> 00:14:15,600 speaking to the federal prosecutor about this, I get so much pushback it's they're 178 00:14:15,600 --> 00:14:20,720 not even subtle. I already anticipate that someday, note the optimism when arrests 179 00:14:20,759 --> 00:14:26,000 are made in our case, I'm fully expecting I'm going to meet that brick 180 00:14:26,039 --> 00:14:31,519 wall personally, because that's just the way it feels, and we're only part 181 00:14:31,559 --> 00:14:35,639 way through. Dare I say the pursuit of justice a word I'm not completely 182 00:14:35,919 --> 00:14:41,919 comfortable with. Wow, the attitude. Even when I've said I'd like to 183 00:14:41,919 --> 00:14:45,720 speak to the federal prosecutor, they're having none of it. What are the 184 00:14:45,759 --> 00:14:50,799 reasons they give? Ask the podcaster thank you for the podcast. Well, 185 00:14:50,320 --> 00:14:58,639 basically the implication, and they're clever in their phrasing, but the implication is 186 00:14:58,679 --> 00:15:03,559 that I have no role, that my family would have no role whatsoever in 187 00:15:03,120 --> 00:15:11,879 discussing how a prosecution might proceed. It's interesting because victims are the moral core 188 00:15:13,279 --> 00:15:18,799 of the justice system, but we've managed to cut them out completely almost And 189 00:15:18,840 --> 00:15:22,799 there's this idea of because they wouldn't know what they're doing and they don't know 190 00:15:22,879 --> 00:15:30,440 the technicalities. All true. Possibly the problems is that we've excluded individuals, 191 00:15:30,600 --> 00:15:35,519 but it's not making it better for anybody. The justice system is not working 192 00:15:35,559 --> 00:15:39,960 for anyone. The justice system does not work for those accused of crimes either. 193 00:15:39,240 --> 00:15:43,600 It really doesn't, and so we've created this hap hazard system and we 194 00:15:43,720 --> 00:15:48,399 have excuses everywhere. I believe in the justice system. I believe in the 195 00:15:48,440 --> 00:15:54,399 promises of the Constitution. I don't think it's working the way it was meant 196 00:15:54,480 --> 00:15:58,679 to right now. And I think that's because we like band aid approaches in 197 00:15:58,720 --> 00:16:03,279 the UNI United States, and we don't like to dig into the wound, 198 00:16:03,480 --> 00:16:07,799 and so we have this kind of house of sticks made up, and we're 199 00:16:07,799 --> 00:16:11,720 afraid to knock the health of sticks over, so we just patch it up 200 00:16:11,759 --> 00:16:15,399 where we can. One of the things that I genuinely believe is that if 201 00:16:15,440 --> 00:16:21,559 we paid more attention to victims and dumped one fifth of the money that we 202 00:16:21,919 --> 00:16:26,159 dump into incarcerating people, if we dumped that money into victim services, the 203 00:16:26,360 --> 00:16:30,279 minute of crime is committed and we're able to get victims help, you would 204 00:16:30,320 --> 00:16:36,559 start to see crime rates go down. Why in your opinion, would crime 205 00:16:36,639 --> 00:16:41,279 rates go down. So what we know about incarceration is about ninety percent of 206 00:16:41,279 --> 00:16:45,799 the individuals who are incarcerated have been victims of crime themselves. Most of the 207 00:16:45,840 --> 00:16:49,080 time they have not received services. A lot of it is domestic violence and 208 00:16:49,200 --> 00:16:55,240 childhood trauma and their very high aces adverse childhood experience scores. Once you start 209 00:16:55,279 --> 00:17:00,120 to survey incarcerated individuals, those individuals have not been given and the tools do 210 00:17:00,240 --> 00:17:04,480 not re enter a cycle of violence, and that certainly even from when you 211 00:17:04,559 --> 00:17:10,039 read about Obviously, Kristin and I are following a lot of cases, not 212 00:17:10,079 --> 00:17:12,519 just the Colonial Parkray murders, but dozens of other cases around the country, 213 00:17:12,759 --> 00:17:18,079 and people approach us constantly and ask us would we be willing to cover a 214 00:17:18,119 --> 00:17:25,079 particular case or discuss a particular case. But even in the consumer online reporting 215 00:17:25,160 --> 00:17:30,799 newspaper level, you often see that the offenders have a history of violence, 216 00:17:30,839 --> 00:17:36,799 and that doesn't come from nowhere. That comes from as you're saying, households 217 00:17:36,799 --> 00:17:41,000 full of abuse, whether it's sexual or physical or mental. These are damage 218 00:17:41,039 --> 00:17:45,839 to individuals in many examples who are lashing out. I don't want to make 219 00:17:45,880 --> 00:17:49,839 it sound like I'm completely absolving offenders of their crimes. I'm not saying that 220 00:17:49,920 --> 00:17:53,720 at all. But you can see how someone that's been through what they've been 221 00:17:53,759 --> 00:17:59,279 through ends up lashing out and hurting people in some way. And it's a 222 00:17:59,359 --> 00:18:03,519 very delicate conversation to have. There are a lot of individuals in the victim 223 00:18:03,599 --> 00:18:07,559 services world that get very unhappy when you say things like hurt people. So 224 00:18:07,599 --> 00:18:11,359 we try to avoid saying that I'm speaking as the brother of a murder victim. 225 00:18:11,359 --> 00:18:12,480 I don't know what other term you want me to use. Well, 226 00:18:12,759 --> 00:18:17,039 And that's the thing is, so a lot of folks will kick back and 227 00:18:17,079 --> 00:18:18,759 say, Bill, you're a great example. Yes, I was hurt, 228 00:18:18,759 --> 00:18:22,880 but I didn't go do harm, and so it's not an excuse. That 229 00:18:23,039 --> 00:18:27,960 is correct. But we also know how trauma works, and if you don't 230 00:18:29,160 --> 00:18:33,559 address a pain immediately and you allow things to fester, you can't predict which 231 00:18:33,559 --> 00:18:37,680 way somebody is going to go. We get asked a lot. I get 232 00:18:37,680 --> 00:18:41,039 asked a lot when we're speaking because we do a lot of prison reform. 233 00:18:42,240 --> 00:18:47,240 What my views are on mandatory minimums, what my views are on mandatory maximums, 234 00:18:47,359 --> 00:18:51,680 and I'm against mandatory anythings. I don't believe that either works because I 235 00:18:51,680 --> 00:18:52,559 think you have to look at the person, and that's what you have a 236 00:18:52,640 --> 00:18:57,359 judge there for, is to look at each person. But I will say 237 00:18:57,400 --> 00:19:02,240 that a lot of people tried to say there's absolute evil in this world. 238 00:19:02,920 --> 00:19:07,279 I don't quite believe that, and I think that you can't make snap decisions 239 00:19:07,319 --> 00:19:11,680 on anybody. But I do think that if we addressed victimization and trauma at 240 00:19:11,720 --> 00:19:18,279 its genesis, when it first happens, you would start to see the level 241 00:19:18,319 --> 00:19:22,119 of at least violent crime go down, and it would take decades. It 242 00:19:22,160 --> 00:19:26,200 would not be away. This would not be oh, look, Renee was 243 00:19:26,279 --> 00:19:29,200 right, or we watched the crime rates drop this year. It would take 244 00:19:29,279 --> 00:19:34,079 decades. I think that there's it's so cyclical when you're talking about violence, 245 00:19:34,200 --> 00:19:38,839 crime and victimization. But what would you have me say different when I say 246 00:19:40,039 --> 00:19:45,160 her? Is there another word that's somehow more? It would not even be 247 00:19:45,279 --> 00:19:48,480 no, And it wouldn't be that I would have I'm trying to think of 248 00:19:48,480 --> 00:19:52,279 how to say this. It wouldn't even be the word. It's not how 249 00:19:52,319 --> 00:19:57,920 to say it. It's that there are many victim advocates who would say, 250 00:19:57,960 --> 00:20:03,319 but I was and I did not. That's the sensitive point for a lot 251 00:20:03,359 --> 00:20:08,160 of individuals. Renee. I want to take a second and talk about the 252 00:20:08,880 --> 00:20:12,279 last place where we saw you, which was at Crime Con in Orlando, 253 00:20:12,400 --> 00:20:17,119 which it feels much longer ago than it actually was. It's only a couple 254 00:20:17,160 --> 00:20:22,000 of weeks, and you moderated a wonderful panel at crime Con with my podcast 255 00:20:22,079 --> 00:20:25,240 partner Bill Thomas. So I want to talk about the panel, but I 256 00:20:25,240 --> 00:20:29,279 also am just curious who reached out first. Did Crime Con reach out to 257 00:20:29,319 --> 00:20:32,440 you. Did you reach out to them? Like, how did this partnership 258 00:20:32,480 --> 00:20:37,599 come into being? I think it was mutual. Maybe Kim Goldman and Jim 259 00:20:37,640 --> 00:20:41,119 Clement, who are very involved in Crime Conn, are both on our board 260 00:20:41,119 --> 00:20:45,880 of directors, and so last year, when we were trying to think of 261 00:20:45,960 --> 00:20:51,079 ways to get the NCBC name out in a board meeting, crime Con came 262 00:20:51,160 --> 00:20:53,880 up as an idea. And so I believe Kim reached out to the Crime 263 00:20:53,920 --> 00:20:57,519 Con folks and said, you asked me to speak this year, but you 264 00:20:57,640 --> 00:21:02,839 have to have Renee too, and they very graciously accepted, And so I 265 00:21:02,839 --> 00:21:06,880 got to moderate two panels last year and we got invited back this year. 266 00:21:07,200 --> 00:21:12,759 Kristin and I had both seen him speak at Crime Kind a couple of years 267 00:21:12,759 --> 00:21:17,160 ago. I want to say that was in Nashville, but I remember it 268 00:21:17,200 --> 00:21:22,400 was a packed ballroom, and she's an amazing speaker. Of course, she 269 00:21:22,799 --> 00:21:29,359 spoke about losing her brother Ron to a violent crime, and she's a tremendous 270 00:21:29,400 --> 00:21:32,319 advocate. I didn't get a chance to just say hello to her, but 271 00:21:32,480 --> 00:21:37,960 I just walked away completely blown away by how passionate and incredibly well spoken she 272 00:21:38,119 --> 00:21:42,920 was. So I want to be Kim Goldman when I grow up. He 273 00:21:44,039 --> 00:21:48,720 too, and her hair is perfect. I had this discussion with her what 274 00:21:48,920 --> 00:21:52,680 because it was seven am. We were at a conference and she walked in 275 00:21:52,720 --> 00:21:55,920 and her hair was perfect, and she gave me your tips. None of 276 00:21:55,920 --> 00:21:57,160 them have worked for me, but yes, I also would like to be 277 00:21:57,240 --> 00:22:02,359 Kim Goldman when I go. I'm not going to worry about the hair thing. 278 00:22:02,400 --> 00:22:07,480 It's too far gone. So the panel that you moderated, which Bill 279 00:22:07,599 --> 00:22:14,240 also attended, was eight Rules for being an Ethical True Crime Fan. And 280 00:22:14,440 --> 00:22:17,680 as soon as I heard that topic, Bill called me and said, Hey, 281 00:22:17,759 --> 00:22:19,119 guess what I'm getting to do a panel. I get to do it 282 00:22:19,160 --> 00:22:22,440 with Kathy Kleiner, I get to do it with Brian, and I get 283 00:22:22,440 --> 00:22:23,799 to do it with Renee Williams. So excited, I said, what's it 284 00:22:23,839 --> 00:22:27,480 about? He said, eight rules for being an ethical true crime fan? 285 00:22:27,519 --> 00:22:30,960 And I said that is great. I can get behind that. Can you 286 00:22:32,720 --> 00:22:34,160 ay tell us how did that come about? In BA? Can you do 287 00:22:34,240 --> 00:22:38,720 the rules please? So how it came about was last year when we went 288 00:22:38,759 --> 00:22:42,599 to Crime Con. We were so embraced by the true crime community, but 289 00:22:42,599 --> 00:22:47,920 there was a lot of confusion and people were asking questions about how can I 290 00:22:47,960 --> 00:22:52,559 be good true crime consumers? And so I started to dig into what was 291 00:22:52,599 --> 00:22:55,640 happening in the true crime world, and I found a lot of really good 292 00:22:55,720 --> 00:23:00,000 things, and I found a lot of really appalling things. Everybody, and 293 00:23:00,079 --> 00:23:03,599 not to knock this podcast, I think the world of you both, but 294 00:23:03,759 --> 00:23:06,160 there are a few others, and Phila and I have had this conversation, 295 00:23:06,279 --> 00:23:08,160 so I feel safe saying this. There are a few others that you give 296 00:23:08,240 --> 00:23:12,160 somebody a mic and a Wikipedia page and they think they're a true crime expert, 297 00:23:12,359 --> 00:23:18,640 and ye too, it's terrifying to me. But to be fair, 298 00:23:19,400 --> 00:23:22,279 my first thought was why can't they follow the rules? And then I thought, 299 00:23:22,319 --> 00:23:26,839 because there are no rules out there, and so you can't get mad 300 00:23:26,880 --> 00:23:30,400 at people for not following the rules of the road if you don't give them 301 00:23:30,440 --> 00:23:33,319 the rules of the road. So we thought, how do we do this 302 00:23:33,680 --> 00:23:37,039 and how do we start to make the change in this community in ways that 303 00:23:37,079 --> 00:23:44,160 are meaningful and non judgmental and are actually achievable. And so we have two 304 00:23:44,279 --> 00:23:48,119 other media guides coming out. One is for victims how to navigate the media, 305 00:23:48,759 --> 00:23:52,920 and one is for all content creators. Now we had media guides for 306 00:23:52,920 --> 00:23:56,599 a long time, but they were for journalists who abound by their own rules, 307 00:23:56,640 --> 00:23:57,559 And so we thought, what if there are people that just want to 308 00:23:57,559 --> 00:24:00,920 do a good job that they've not had to an ethics course, So we 309 00:24:02,000 --> 00:24:06,240 are trying to give them a crash course, not in ethics, but in 310 00:24:06,640 --> 00:24:10,039 how can I speak to victims? And if I got into true crime to 311 00:24:10,079 --> 00:24:12,640 do good, to tell somebody's stories, how can I do that in a 312 00:24:12,640 --> 00:24:18,599 way that does not either do harm to the investigation or for their traumatized folks. 313 00:24:18,160 --> 00:24:22,559 Part of that was also coming up with rules for the public of how 314 00:24:22,599 --> 00:24:26,079 they can be true crime consumers. And again that was because we had such 315 00:24:26,119 --> 00:24:30,200 a good experience last year and people so fully embraced it that we thought, 316 00:24:30,359 --> 00:24:33,720 if we could get some folks attention around this, I bet we can start 317 00:24:33,720 --> 00:24:37,559 to make some changes. And I love that concept, because you're right, 318 00:24:37,799 --> 00:24:41,720 it is a wonderful, warm, loving community for the most part of people 319 00:24:41,759 --> 00:24:45,799 who really want to try to do good. There are a couple of people 320 00:24:45,880 --> 00:24:48,680 out there who are like determined to be chaos and cause trouble, but I 321 00:24:48,720 --> 00:24:55,119 would say any community has those. It is so nice to know that there 322 00:24:55,200 --> 00:24:57,039 is this set of rules out there, and I'm hoping that at some point 323 00:24:57,079 --> 00:25:02,039 or another we can all kind of embrace that so that it just becomes like 324 00:25:02,160 --> 00:25:07,000 these are the standard norms by which we operate. You're listening to Mind over 325 00:25:07,079 --> 00:25:19,839 Murder. We'll be right back after this word from our sponsors. We're back 326 00:25:19,880 --> 00:25:26,799 here at mindover Murder. Can you go over those eight rules real quick and 327 00:25:26,799 --> 00:25:30,000 then we can get into more of them in more detail. Sure, So 328 00:25:30,079 --> 00:25:33,480 these are the rules for the general public when consuming, not necessarily podcasters, 329 00:25:33,480 --> 00:25:37,559 because we're hoping the general public will take it and say, hey, we 330 00:25:37,680 --> 00:25:41,359 are not going to listen to this anymore if you are not being at the 331 00:25:41,440 --> 00:25:45,680 goal. So the first is there is no such thing as victim lifts true 332 00:25:45,720 --> 00:25:51,160 crime. We're both giving that a big thumbs up. Yep. The second 333 00:25:51,319 --> 00:25:56,519 is there is no timeline for trauma. The third is investigate, investigate, 334 00:25:56,880 --> 00:26:03,160 investigate. The fourth is require the presence of victim's voices. I can get 335 00:26:03,160 --> 00:26:07,880 behind that one too, yeah, very much. The fifth is due no 336 00:26:08,079 --> 00:26:15,359 harm. The sixth is respect boundaries, the seventh is don't fall victim yourself 337 00:26:15,400 --> 00:26:22,480 to true crime, and the eighth is turn your interest into impact. No. 338 00:26:22,599 --> 00:26:25,440 I flew through those, but You guys know that there are long explanations 339 00:26:25,440 --> 00:26:29,839 to each So where do we want to start unpacking? Yes, the main 340 00:26:29,960 --> 00:26:33,279 touchstone out of this is the very very first one, so let's start there. 341 00:26:33,640 --> 00:26:38,440 There is no victim less true crime. So why is it that there 342 00:26:38,519 --> 00:26:42,720 are victims who get written out of their own stories. We were talking about 343 00:26:42,759 --> 00:26:48,599 this with Kathy Kleiner the other day when she's talking about the fact that Ted 344 00:26:48,680 --> 00:26:53,559 Bundy is of vastly more interest than his victims are, Like, why, 345 00:26:53,680 --> 00:26:57,640 he was a loser. He was not charismatic, he was not handsome, 346 00:26:57,640 --> 00:27:00,759 he was not charming, he was not smart, all right, and yet 347 00:27:00,240 --> 00:27:04,160 here we have so many people interested in him, and even those types of 348 00:27:04,160 --> 00:27:07,240 people who show up at crime con who are interested in him. Why aren't 349 00:27:07,240 --> 00:27:11,000 we focusing more on the victims? Talk to us a little bit more about 350 00:27:11,000 --> 00:27:15,400 the fact that there really is no victimless true crime. We're not watching true 351 00:27:15,480 --> 00:27:21,920 crime stories about pyramid schemes. Netflix and its progeny will release one every so 352 00:27:22,079 --> 00:27:23,599 often, but I don't even think they get higher reviews. They're boring. 353 00:27:23,839 --> 00:27:30,039 Let's be honest. They are the crimes that are intriguing individuals and have intrigued 354 00:27:30,079 --> 00:27:37,319 distance the beginning of time are those with victims of violent crimes almost always and 355 00:27:37,359 --> 00:27:42,240 exclusively. But I think our psyche especially now allows us to turn that into 356 00:27:42,279 --> 00:27:47,200 a story and a form of entertainment. So you can then take a victim 357 00:27:47,240 --> 00:27:52,599 and make them a character. Yeah, Ted Bundy himself is not Ted Bundy 358 00:27:52,599 --> 00:27:56,720 the person. He is Ted Bundy the character. And that's what intrigues people. 359 00:27:56,160 --> 00:28:00,599 Nobody actually likes Ted Bundy, that knew him. We've allowed this storyline 360 00:28:00,599 --> 00:28:07,240 to arc around and move to where he's sexy and romantic and misunderstood, none 361 00:28:07,319 --> 00:28:11,400 of which is true and smart and oh so clever, Yeah, and handsome 362 00:28:11,559 --> 00:28:15,240 and charming, and he was a wonderful stepfather. Ted Bundy was an amazing 363 00:28:15,319 --> 00:28:18,720 human except for that inconvenient fact that none of those things were true, and 364 00:28:18,839 --> 00:28:23,359 he was a killer. But with the amount of media that's out there, 365 00:28:23,400 --> 00:28:29,279 and the stories and the books and everything that's allowed to encapsulate him, he 366 00:28:29,319 --> 00:28:32,799 gets this weird halo glow and we're not looking at him as a person, 367 00:28:32,960 --> 00:28:37,599 and so that's why he become so much more intriguing for his victims. If 368 00:28:37,640 --> 00:28:41,400 we can turn a victim into a character, they become maybe slightly more interesting, 369 00:28:41,440 --> 00:28:47,359 but there's something very real about victims, and there's something very deep that 370 00:28:47,799 --> 00:28:52,160 they're harder to turn into just characters, and that starts to feel a little 371 00:28:52,160 --> 00:28:55,799 bit less comfortable, and it's a little bit less fun to hear about. 372 00:28:56,480 --> 00:28:59,759 I want to hear about people in the hospital and what they had to overcome 373 00:29:00,039 --> 00:29:04,799 and talk about their therapy. I also think that some of the crossover between 374 00:29:04,839 --> 00:29:11,960 the world of fiction and nonfiction it gets very blended. Keeping in mind that 375 00:29:11,559 --> 00:29:15,880 if, for instance, if you're going to tell a story about a serial 376 00:29:17,000 --> 00:29:22,119 killer or a repeat offender of some sort, the victim is introduced, however 377 00:29:22,160 --> 00:29:27,799 briefly, and then he or she quite often it's she, is, then 378 00:29:29,000 --> 00:29:33,720 something terrible happens to them, and then they're actually eliminated basically from their own 379 00:29:33,839 --> 00:29:41,799 story because there's very little reference made to them after that. And then in 380 00:29:41,839 --> 00:29:47,359 a typical serial killer type story, whether it's nonfiction or fiction, then there's 381 00:29:47,400 --> 00:29:52,319 another victim introduced, but they almost become like dominoes or something. They're just 382 00:29:52,359 --> 00:30:00,480 being stacked up, knocked over next next, and there's a diminishment of their 383 00:30:00,400 --> 00:30:07,200 humanity because they're just briefly introduced, killed off, and then we're onto the 384 00:30:07,240 --> 00:30:11,119 next victim. You're absolutely right. We've been doing this for hundreds, if 385 00:30:11,160 --> 00:30:15,200 not thousands of years, since all the way back to the penny press, 386 00:30:15,640 --> 00:30:22,640 where people wanted to read about Jack the Ripper or whomever. The protagonist. 387 00:30:22,920 --> 00:30:30,200 The offender becomes the through line and not hero necessarily, but they're definitely pushing 388 00:30:30,279 --> 00:30:37,880 the story forward. I think what happens in true crime now is that we're 389 00:30:37,920 --> 00:30:45,759 picking up a lot of those tropes from fictional stories or stories that have been 390 00:30:45,799 --> 00:30:49,160 around for so many hundreds of years that people forget that Jack the Ripper actually 391 00:30:49,319 --> 00:30:57,000 was a real life serial killer. It's interesting. So my favorite actor in 392 00:30:57,079 --> 00:31:02,200 the world is Patrick Page, the very famous Broadway actor, and he's doing 393 00:31:02,200 --> 00:31:04,279 a show right now called All the Devils Are Here. It's soft Broadway. 394 00:31:04,400 --> 00:31:08,240 Oh I've heard about this, Oh my god. So I went to see 395 00:31:08,279 --> 00:31:14,119 it in before it opened because I'm obsessed with him. But he talks about 396 00:31:14,200 --> 00:31:21,039 Shakespeare's invention of the villain and what the villain was before Shakespeare came along was 397 00:31:22,279 --> 00:31:29,799 very caricature and dramatic and weird. Where Shakespeare took the villain and villain didn't 398 00:31:29,799 --> 00:31:32,519 mean evil. I can't remember what it meant, but it meant something else, 399 00:31:32,640 --> 00:31:37,519 but he took the villain and made it psychological. And actually several of 400 00:31:37,640 --> 00:31:41,720 Shakespeare's villains are sociopaths, but he talks about it in That's part of why 401 00:31:41,759 --> 00:31:48,920 Shakespeare became so popular because in his villains we found such complex characters that we 402 00:31:48,000 --> 00:31:52,839 psychologically feel the need to understand. And I think that's what we see with 403 00:31:53,440 --> 00:31:59,359 serial killers that we are now idolizing, is we view them as these psychologically 404 00:31:59,720 --> 00:32:04,759 complex humans and we're trying to understand them. And part of it's that we 405 00:32:04,839 --> 00:32:08,400 think we could never do that, and part of it's trying to understand what 406 00:32:08,720 --> 00:32:14,559 they are doing. And then part of it's I think a desperate belief that 407 00:32:14,799 --> 00:32:22,839 nobody could ever just be that evil without some underlying tragedy or story or backstory. 408 00:32:22,920 --> 00:32:29,039 And so that's why the killers are so interesting. Meanwhile, victims are 409 00:32:29,079 --> 00:32:34,519 everyday people, and we're not trying to sort them out. No, exactly. 410 00:32:35,160 --> 00:32:37,839 I am curious before we go back into the rules, I'm really curious, 411 00:32:37,920 --> 00:32:42,920 out of the panelists that you had available to you for this panel at 412 00:32:43,000 --> 00:32:46,839 Crime Con, did you get to choose who your panelists were or were you 413 00:32:46,920 --> 00:32:51,839 told these are your panelists? Please? Work with them. Oh, No, 414 00:32:52,079 --> 00:32:55,160 Crime con was very lovely. They let me put together. I asked 415 00:32:55,160 --> 00:33:00,319 them if I could have a one hour topic the topic of my choosing and 416 00:33:00,720 --> 00:33:04,960 the method and madness of my choosing, and they told me to basically do 417 00:33:05,039 --> 00:33:07,240 what I wanted, and so I got to pick the individuals. Okay, 418 00:33:07,480 --> 00:33:12,079 the topic everything. I'm just going to put Bill on the spot here for 419 00:33:12,119 --> 00:33:15,599 a second. Why was Bill a really good choice for your panel? Bill 420 00:33:15,720 --> 00:33:21,759 was a very good choice because he both knows the world professionally and what it 421 00:33:21,839 --> 00:33:25,119 takes to get into it and the pitfalls, but also how it feels on 422 00:33:25,160 --> 00:33:30,119 the other end, and it was very important to me. And that's also 423 00:33:30,319 --> 00:33:35,839 why Brian and Kathy were included. Kathy's story and her way of telling it 424 00:33:35,880 --> 00:33:40,000 is beautiful and amazing, but it is one sided and it had to be 425 00:33:40,079 --> 00:33:44,480 one sided, right Like it's not her job to know what the media does. 426 00:33:45,039 --> 00:33:49,000 Brian Etton is the same way. He is going to be one sided 427 00:33:49,039 --> 00:33:51,240 and say this is what I do. So I needed both of them, 428 00:33:51,839 --> 00:33:58,400 and then Bill bridged them both love that and that was very important because I 429 00:33:58,400 --> 00:34:00,200 think when you're doing a panel like this, if you actually want people to 430 00:34:00,240 --> 00:34:04,640 hear what you're saying. You can't just come at it from one side, 431 00:34:04,720 --> 00:34:09,880 because you give people the opportunity to write off what you've said if there's any 432 00:34:09,920 --> 00:34:14,719 gap. So if it was just victims on that stage with me, the 433 00:34:14,760 --> 00:34:17,760 audience could say, that's fine that victims feel this way, but what are 434 00:34:17,800 --> 00:34:22,159 people supposed to do? Then you have somebody sitting there that this is what 435 00:34:22,199 --> 00:34:24,480 you're supposed to do. And by the way, we know how to do 436 00:34:24,519 --> 00:34:30,280 it because we do it every day. On a personal note, I'd just 437 00:34:30,360 --> 00:34:35,039 like to say, I'm really disappointed that I wasn't brought in because I'm the 438 00:34:35,039 --> 00:34:40,719 personification of evil, which is really my goal. You have the voice for 439 00:34:40,840 --> 00:34:47,679 it. Oh, I love that. Yes, Halloween is coming up within 440 00:34:47,800 --> 00:34:52,599 days at the time of this taping, and a number of times that he 441 00:34:52,679 --> 00:34:54,639 gets people are like, oh, your voice is like silk, it's like 442 00:34:54,719 --> 00:34:59,679 satin, it's like olive oil's. But I've never heard someone say his voice 443 00:34:59,719 --> 00:35:04,639 is voice of evil. And I love it. I love it every single 444 00:35:04,880 --> 00:35:07,760 I'm going to use that every single time someone talks about how smooth and cherman 445 00:35:07,840 --> 00:35:13,199 and lovely his voice is made for radio. I'm going to come back with 446 00:35:13,360 --> 00:35:16,519 yes, but he also sounds like the personification of evil. I love it. 447 00:35:16,559 --> 00:35:21,880 Look, we all have goals and aspirations, and until I get that 448 00:35:21,960 --> 00:35:25,280 booking as the personification of evil, my work here will not be done. 449 00:35:28,719 --> 00:35:31,440 You got to play what you got to play an evil else in Santa Maybe 450 00:35:31,519 --> 00:35:37,760 right, you're getting it on. One of our friends, Jason Usfree, 451 00:35:37,920 --> 00:35:45,000 asked me to play part in his wonderful Christmas production of Santa Maybe, And 452 00:35:45,079 --> 00:35:47,079 originally I was going to be an elf, which I was real happy to 453 00:35:47,119 --> 00:35:51,840 be an elf, and so I was working on my whole thing and then 454 00:35:51,920 --> 00:35:54,559 he said, oh, We've got this guy who's like a real sort of 455 00:35:55,159 --> 00:35:59,119 Hollywood sleees kind of guy. And I said, oh, I can do 456 00:35:59,199 --> 00:36:05,360 that. That's me. I can do that. My horse's name is Vincent 457 00:36:05,400 --> 00:36:08,800 Price that I've been looking for a voiceover for him. Oh. I love 458 00:36:08,920 --> 00:36:12,599 Vincent like whenever I want to post him on Instagram because I feel like he 459 00:36:12,639 --> 00:36:15,320 has a voice and he's just waiting to use it. So I can offer 460 00:36:15,360 --> 00:36:20,440 you that role. There we go. I love that. No, and 461 00:36:20,519 --> 00:36:23,400 I love the fact I think you did choose the best set of panelists possible 462 00:36:23,679 --> 00:36:29,400 for your eight Rules panelist. And I know I'm a little biased because he's 463 00:36:29,400 --> 00:36:32,239 my partner and all that, but I really think you made some excellent choices 464 00:36:32,280 --> 00:36:36,000 there, and it was it was a hit. It was a really excellent 465 00:36:36,320 --> 00:36:39,320 panel, and I honestly think that more people could have benefited from seeing and 466 00:36:39,360 --> 00:36:45,000 hearing it like a larger stage. The great news is it's still available, 467 00:36:45,119 --> 00:36:49,480 and actually NCBC has posted it on our website The Wire. Oh, I 468 00:36:49,519 --> 00:36:53,000 didn't know that, Thank you. That's wonderful. We got permission from crime 469 00:36:53,039 --> 00:36:55,800 Con to use it, so we have the video and the video is up. 470 00:36:55,920 --> 00:37:00,679 So if any of your listeners would like to watch Bill in live, 471 00:37:00,800 --> 00:37:06,159 not live, but on a video, you want to hear from Kathy Kleiner 472 00:37:06,239 --> 00:37:09,760 Rubin and Brian Anon too. They're both amazing and each of them brings their 473 00:37:09,800 --> 00:37:16,039 own incredible background to the table. So after your time at crime Con, 474 00:37:16,400 --> 00:37:22,960 did you have any feedback from participants or discussion with people there that really struck 475 00:37:22,000 --> 00:37:25,400 a chord with you, Renee, or anything that you took away that you're 476 00:37:25,400 --> 00:37:30,800 still mulling over even all this many weeks later. I know a lot of 477 00:37:30,840 --> 00:37:37,239 individuals said that it really changed the way they viewed true crime. We had 478 00:37:37,360 --> 00:37:40,920 I was approached in the hallway and asked because one of the topics that we 479 00:37:42,039 --> 00:37:46,480 discussed and went on a little bit of a bandwagon about was the sharing on 480 00:37:46,599 --> 00:37:52,119 social media and don't share? Why are you sharing? Think before you comment, 481 00:37:52,199 --> 00:37:54,519 think before you post. And somebody approached me and actually asked, aren't 482 00:37:54,519 --> 00:37:59,639 we being helpful if we share? And I had to walk her through the 483 00:37:59,679 --> 00:38:04,960 ways that sharing was not always helpful. But I think to some extent it 484 00:38:05,119 --> 00:38:10,159 just affirmed that people are doing this to be helpful. Just because they're not 485 00:38:10,280 --> 00:38:15,719 helpful in the way that we want them to be helpful. That can't take 486 00:38:15,719 --> 00:38:21,639 away their intention. It just maybe needs to be redirected. I will tell 487 00:38:21,679 --> 00:38:28,719 you I have been contacted by a victim whose story was told Her mother was 488 00:38:28,840 --> 00:38:32,960 killed, and her story was told on Oxygen, and she was not contacted, 489 00:38:34,239 --> 00:38:37,440 had no idea what was going out. A friend of the family saw 490 00:38:37,480 --> 00:38:42,440 the previews and saw some pretty gruesome photos, so she contacted me for help. 491 00:38:42,519 --> 00:38:46,079 And it's I think this bleeds into the there's no timeline for trauma. 492 00:38:46,280 --> 00:38:51,960 I think it had happened in the nineteen eighties, so the producers thought it 493 00:38:52,000 --> 00:38:55,320 was not a big deal, and for her it was very traumatic, and 494 00:38:55,360 --> 00:39:00,760 I think hearing from her after we did this was further affirmation, because when 495 00:39:00,760 --> 00:39:05,360 you put things like this out, you're not sure if you're exactly right on. 496 00:39:05,760 --> 00:39:07,639 You do all of the work you can, as far as round tables, 497 00:39:07,679 --> 00:39:12,719 but you're not sure you've encompassed everything. Or in my mind, sometimes 498 00:39:12,719 --> 00:39:16,000 I think I'm being overly dramatic about something and I'm too focused on one thing 499 00:39:16,039 --> 00:39:21,920 and not focused enough. So I think her reaching out really just confirmed the 500 00:39:22,199 --> 00:39:25,280 prevalence of we've got to protect these individuals, because I will tell you she 501 00:39:25,440 --> 00:39:30,280 had nowhere to turn. I frankly did not know that I'd be able to 502 00:39:30,280 --> 00:39:34,039 help her at all. I got lucky on helping her, but when she 503 00:39:34,159 --> 00:39:36,599 first emailed me, I thought, she, I don't know what to do. 504 00:39:36,920 --> 00:39:38,079 I don't know how to help you. And if I don't know how 505 00:39:38,119 --> 00:39:42,400 to help you, we're in a world of trouble because that means there's no 506 00:39:42,440 --> 00:39:46,119 one who can, but you clearly need the help. Her reaching out affirmed 507 00:39:46,360 --> 00:39:50,840 a lot of this and also made me realize there's a lot more work to 508 00:39:50,840 --> 00:39:52,920 be done, because if I'm going to put myself on a stage and put 509 00:39:52,920 --> 00:39:58,320 out a video instad on podcasts about the wonderful work we're doing. I better 510 00:39:58,360 --> 00:40:01,880 be able to help somebody in that position in two and her email sent me 511 00:40:01,920 --> 00:40:07,519 for a loop. What words do you have for anyone who has been a 512 00:40:07,639 --> 00:40:10,280 victim of crime and who needs support and if they don't know where to go? 513 00:40:10,519 --> 00:40:15,000 We're not going to say everybody should just email Renee because you are very 514 00:40:15,039 --> 00:40:17,280 busy. What would you say to anybody who just I don't know where to 515 00:40:17,320 --> 00:40:20,519 go, but I know that I need some help? Where would you point 516 00:40:20,559 --> 00:40:23,960 them? I would honestly start by calling our Victim Services Hotline. Okay, 517 00:40:24,599 --> 00:40:30,440 there are so many different paths for victims, so there are places where you 518 00:40:30,480 --> 00:40:35,599 cannot get a victim advocate unless you're cooperating with law enforcement, and maybe you 519 00:40:35,639 --> 00:40:38,920 don't want to cooperate with law enforcement for a multitude of reasons. There are 520 00:40:38,920 --> 00:40:43,360 a lot of victims that rely on their friends and family, which is wonderful 521 00:40:43,360 --> 00:40:49,039 for emotional support, but does not provide a level of expertise or enclosure that 522 00:40:49,239 --> 00:40:54,920 some individuals needs. Start with our Victim Services Hotline, but also know that 523 00:40:54,960 --> 00:40:59,440 there's not one right path and that a lot of people have a lot of 524 00:40:59,440 --> 00:41:02,639 differentions about what you should and shouldn't do, and none of those are right 525 00:41:02,719 --> 00:41:07,239 if they're not right for you. Yeah. One of the things I've learned 526 00:41:07,239 --> 00:41:12,639 over time, even with the Eight Families and the Colonial Park murders and talking 527 00:41:12,679 --> 00:41:17,920 to victims and survivors of other crimes, is that everyone's different and the impact 528 00:41:17,960 --> 00:41:23,719 of these terrible events will be different and may even be different over time. 529 00:41:24,639 --> 00:41:30,719 Our case stretches back thirty seven years now, so we're seeing even generationally things 530 00:41:30,800 --> 00:41:37,039 shift in terms of the impact of this series of violent crime. One of 531 00:41:37,079 --> 00:41:40,880 the things I say to Kristen is your mileage may vary, It may sound 532 00:41:40,920 --> 00:41:44,440 a little flip, but what I mean is that everyone is going to deal 533 00:41:44,480 --> 00:41:46,840 with this trauma in their own way, and even over the course of their 534 00:41:46,960 --> 00:41:52,800 lives. This will stay with them forever. It isn't the situation is resolved, 535 00:41:53,079 --> 00:41:59,360 a suspect has identified, tried, convicted, and everything in your life 536 00:41:59,440 --> 00:42:06,119 just goes on perfectly because nothing's ever going to change what's happened, and our 537 00:42:06,400 --> 00:42:15,280 justice system is woefully unable to help victims all of the time. Sometimes you 538 00:42:15,679 --> 00:42:21,119 have to accept that resolution, enclosure is not going to come through the justice 539 00:42:21,119 --> 00:42:25,519 system, just not. You have to find another form of justice or find 540 00:42:25,800 --> 00:42:30,119 some closure that is going to work for you. We see that a lot 541 00:42:30,320 --> 00:42:36,280 in frankly, victims of child sex abuse. They know who did it. 542 00:42:36,280 --> 00:42:38,880 It was in the nineteen eighties, it was a family member, and they 543 00:42:39,159 --> 00:42:44,320 come to us with paperwork and their hat in their hands, begging for help. 544 00:42:44,400 --> 00:42:47,480 And the answer is just this isn't something that the justice system can address. 545 00:42:49,119 --> 00:42:52,639 With a lot of victims Kate with domestic violence, with multiple victims cases, 546 00:42:53,119 --> 00:42:57,960 it's just something that the justice system is not set up to address. 547 00:42:58,559 --> 00:43:02,079 Through nobody's fault. You have to have multiple pathways if you want closure, 548 00:43:02,119 --> 00:43:07,400 because it's not always going to come from one path. And almost everyone I 549 00:43:07,480 --> 00:43:12,280 know that's been through this, whether they have had suspects identified or not, 550 00:43:12,480 --> 00:43:15,599 whether they've been through a trial or not. Everyone I've met so far, 551 00:43:15,679 --> 00:43:21,199 which is probably in the hundreds now, every single person I've talked to, 552 00:43:22,400 --> 00:43:25,480 makes some sort of analogy about the fact that they feel like they've been through 553 00:43:25,480 --> 00:43:30,480 a meat grinder and there's a process, but at the end of it, 554 00:43:30,599 --> 00:43:38,400 something awful us gets spat out at the other end. No one I've met 555 00:43:38,639 --> 00:43:47,760 yet has expressed anything more than a smidgeon of satisfaction. Or feeling like whatever 556 00:43:49,159 --> 00:43:53,719 we call this thing, that they somehow achieved justice. That's twice now I've 557 00:43:53,800 --> 00:43:58,280 used that word, which is a word I'm not crazy about, because I'm 558 00:43:58,320 --> 00:44:05,079 not seeing any and even the people I know whose cases have been adjudicated and 559 00:44:05,199 --> 00:44:10,039 seen all the way through, no one has ever said to me yet I 560 00:44:10,079 --> 00:44:16,400 felt like I achieved some level of satisfaction or dare I say justice again? 561 00:44:17,400 --> 00:44:22,079 It just doesn't seem to be part of the process. And there are times 562 00:44:22,119 --> 00:44:28,559 when the justice system can make things worse when you are parading out every intimate 563 00:44:28,599 --> 00:44:34,320 detail in public in a courtroom, whether it's about a family member who has 564 00:44:34,400 --> 00:44:37,599 died, or if you're a victim of a violent crime and the defense has 565 00:44:37,599 --> 00:44:43,159 the right to ask you the wise and they can get ugly. What would 566 00:44:43,199 --> 00:44:47,880 you like to see change in the true crime space in the next couple of 567 00:44:49,000 --> 00:44:53,679 years to help us reach a point where we are more friendly and aware of 568 00:44:53,840 --> 00:44:58,440 victims and what we need to be doing to help them. I think we 569 00:44:58,519 --> 00:45:05,480 start with consumers who care, who are holding the content creators accountable. And 570 00:45:05,519 --> 00:45:08,920 I think that consumers in the true crime field don't realize how powerful they are, 571 00:45:09,719 --> 00:45:14,519 and they think that just one view on the Netflix or one listen to 572 00:45:14,840 --> 00:45:19,199 a bad podcast doesn't really mean anything. It does, and if people start 573 00:45:19,239 --> 00:45:22,840 reaching out and saying, I don't want to hear this unless you're doing this, 574 00:45:22,199 --> 00:45:25,039 things will start to change. But again, it's getting the awareness out 575 00:45:25,079 --> 00:45:29,800 there. At crime Con, I will tell you I did talk to one 576 00:45:29,880 --> 00:45:34,639 podcast team who literally told me they did not care about having the victim's voice. 577 00:45:35,039 --> 00:45:37,800 They're just doing it for fun. I'm not gonna say, Wow, 578 00:45:37,840 --> 00:45:40,920 we're just here to have a good time. We don't want to get into 579 00:45:40,960 --> 00:45:45,119 that. And I said to them, you literally just told me you don't 580 00:45:45,159 --> 00:45:50,719 care about having the victim's voice or discussing anything with accuracy. No, we 581 00:45:50,760 --> 00:45:53,880 don't. We're just here to have fun. It's just fun. We're just 582 00:45:53,920 --> 00:45:57,039 trying to have fun with it. We're not trying to get into the serious 583 00:45:57,079 --> 00:45:59,679 part of it. And I was like, you're doing a podcast about murder. 584 00:46:00,599 --> 00:46:05,599 You're getting into the serious part of it. So I would love to 585 00:46:05,599 --> 00:46:08,719 see folks like that run out of town. And I do think that consumers 586 00:46:08,840 --> 00:46:13,840 have the ability to do it. And I think that's where we start with 587 00:46:14,199 --> 00:46:19,480 people viewing every single thing they watch that's in this space, not as a 588 00:46:19,519 --> 00:46:24,719 story that they're being told, but as something that actually happened, and the 589 00:46:24,840 --> 00:46:30,039 victims as individuals who need some sort of help or that something awful happen to 590 00:46:30,079 --> 00:46:35,199 them, but viewing them as real people. Can think of a better note 591 00:46:35,199 --> 00:46:37,840 to end on than that one. Reneve Welliams, thank you so very much 592 00:46:37,880 --> 00:46:42,559 for joining us today. We really appreciate it. Thank you for having me. 593 00:46:43,639 --> 00:46:45,880 That's going to do it for this episode of mind Ever Murder. Thank 594 00:46:45,920 --> 00:46:59,840 you so much for listening. We'll see you next time. Mind Over Murder 595 00:47:00,119 --> 00:47:06,079 is a production of Absolute Zero and Another Dog Productions. Our executive producers are 596 00:47:06,079 --> 00:47:10,440 Bill Thomas and Kristin Dilley. Our logo art is by Pamela Arnois. Our 597 00:47:10,480 --> 00:47:15,559 theme music is by Kevin McLoud. Mind Over Murder is distributed in partnership with 598 00:47:15,639 --> 00:47:21,719 crawl Space Media. You can follow us on Facebook, Twitter, or Instagram. 599 00:47:21,920 --> 00:47:24,840 You can also follow our page on the Colonial Parkway Murders on Facebook, 600 00:47:25,199 --> 00:47:30,880 and finally, you can follow Bill Thomas on Twitter at Bill Thomas five six. 601 00:47:30,360 --> 00:47:34,440 Thank you for listening to mind Over Murder.