You're listening to the Mind over Murder podcast. My name is Bill Thomas.
I'm a writer, consulting, producer, and now podcaster. I am now
trying to use my experience as the brother of a murder victim to help other
victims of violent crime. I'm working on a book on the unsolved Colonial Parkway
murders and I'm the co administrator of the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook group together with
Kristin Dilley. My name is Kristin Dilley. I'm a writer, a researcher,
a teacher, and a victim's advocate, as well as the social media
manager and co administrator for the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook page with my partner in
crime, Bill Thomas. Welcome to Mind of a Murder. I'm Kristin Dilley
and I'm Bill Thomas, and today we are covering the role of Leslie van
Houghton. She is one of the six Manson Family killers still in jail.
Van Houghton, aged seventy three, was released on parole on Tuesday after more
than fifty years behind bars. For anybody who is unfamiliar with the Manson family
killings, let me give you a brief riendown here. Leslie van Houghton was
originally given the death sentence for her role in the murders of Rosemary and Leno
La Bianca. They were killed on the second night of the Manson family's murderous
rampage through Los Angeles, so this is after the Sharon Tate murders. She
along with Tex Watson and Manson, tied up the La Bianca's. Leslie van
Houghton then helped to stab Rosemary La Bianca to death, stabbing her between thirteen
and sixteen times. Van Houghton is only the second Manson family member of the
six who were convicted to be parole. According to NBC, family member Steve
Clem Grogan's death sentence was reduced to life in nineteen seventy one, and he
was paroled in nineteen eighty five. As to the other members of the Manson
family, as we all know, Charles Manson died in jail in twenty seventeen
while serving out a life sentence, Susan Atkins died in two thousand and nine,
and still serving their sentences is Tex Watson, Bobby Bosleigh, and Patricia
Crenwinkle, all of whom are still serving out their sentences for murders committed during
their time with the Manson family. Very interesting when I opened up my news
feed yesterday and learned that Leslie Van Houghton had been paroled, because honestly,
I'm not entirely sure it was the right call. What do you think though?
I think it was completely the wrong call, and I'm extremely disappointed that
the state of California has decided to parole Leslie van Houghton. I recognize that
she is now seventy three years old, and she doesn't represent a threat to
society or probably anybody at this point. At the same time, when you
actually get into the details of these murders, it's shocking how horrible these murders
were. Mister and Missus la Bianca died for no reason at all except for
the fact that they were successful business people who owned grocery stores. There's no
reason whatsoever to kill these people. At the murders that took place the previous
evening or at the La Bianca home. Leslie van Houghton is a brutal murderer.
She may be a harmless seventy three year old lady at this point,
but she was a crazed nineteen year old killer under the spell of a cult
leader. She stabbed these people to death. Let me read from the New
York Times, who are not usually this graphic. Miss van Houghton has not
been shot about her role in the killings, saying in a parole board hearing
in two thousand and two that she had pinned down Miss La Bianca while another
Manson family member, Patricia Krenwinkle, stabbed her in the collar bone. Charles
Watson aka Text, another figure in the attack, stabbed Miss La Bianca with
a bayonet eight times before Van Houghton then stabbed her in the abdomen fourteen to
sixteen times. We're talking about brutality at the most extreme level. And yes,
fifty three years have gone by, and as I said, I don't
think that Leslie van Houghton represents a threat. At the same time, I
believe strongly that if you brutally murder someone like this, you deserve to spend
the rest of your life in jail. And that's from now until death her
death. No, I don't know the status on Tex Watson, Bobby Bosela,
Patricia Krenwinkle. I don't know if any of them are up for parole.
When I put this up on our mind of a murder Facebook page,
which is always a great place to get way in from our listeners, we
had such a wide spectrum of opinions on this that I had to codify for
myself, Okay, what are the major points that are coming into play here?
So I think that when we're when we're thinking about Leslie van Houghton and
whether or not she does deserve par role, we do take into account things
like the seriousness of the crime absolutely and whether or not she's going to reoffend.
But ultimately, looking at the broad spectrum of responses, I basically found
that there are a couple of things we all need to take into account as
we're discussing this. I think that when you think about this sort of things,
you have to consider five different variables. Number one, what is the
role of the criminal justice system? Is it to punish or is it to
reform? You also has to think about whether rehabilitation is possible. And according
to a number of reports that I've seen, people have said that Leslie van
Houghton is a model inmate, has been for a number of years. She
has gotten a number of degrees while she was in prison, she has made
every effort to reform herself, which goes back to number one, So do
you think rehabilitation is possible? Number three the victims families? Should they be
taken into account when considering parole, and we'll talk a little bit about what
some of the families have said about Leslie van Houghton being granted parole. Number
Four, you have to take in is the person likely to reoffend? And
you've already indicated I think this is true too that probably no, she is
not going to go out and stab somebody to death. Again. Number five,
has the person been punished enough? Is fifty three years enough punishment for
what they've done? And then finally you have to consider is a crime so
heinous that the person needs to serve life with no chance of ever getting out.
I think in this case you could definitely argue that the Manson family murders
both night one and Night two would definitely be considered a hanous enough that I
don't think she deserves to out it, truly don't. But I think that
does come down to the fact that there are so many people on our Facebook
page who were like, yet it was an awful crime, but she served
her time, and then there are people who were like, this is so
awful, she never deserves to get out. So what are your thoughts on
those, Bilm. Let's go back through the five points, yes, a
bit more slowly, and let's both respond to those things before we move on
to our Facebook comments, which I thought were very interesting and offered a variety
of perspectives from mind of her murder listeners, which we very much appreciate.
So let's go through the points one through five. Okay, so point number
one, what do you think the role of the criminal justice system should be?
Is the criminal justice system about punishment or is it about reform? I
think it has to serve a dual purpose. For someone who's committed a less
serious crime, let's say vandalism or even assault or car theft for example.
At a similar age, I'm going to say someone who's in their late teens,
like Leslie van Houghton was at the time, I think there's a lot
of opportunity for reform. Even though youthful offenders sometimes will reoffend. Hopefully with
a well run penal system, the opportunity for reform can be part of the
mix so that someone will serve a certain number of years for their crime,
and then hopefully get out and not reoffend and be able to assimilate back into
society and move forward. So I think it needs to provide both punishment and
the opportunity to reform oneself. It seems from what we've read that our current
system and the facilities were using for incarceration seem to be failing terribly. The
percentage of reoffense is very high. I think that should be the goal.
No, I agree. I think there are certain types of offenders who should
never see the light of day again because their offense is so heinous. I
do not want rapists to see the light of day again. I do not
want child sex offenders or sex traffickers to see the light of day again,
because that is from my understanding of all of our psychologist, psychiatrist and profiling
friends, that's a compulsion. That's a psychological compulsion that I don't think is
ever going to go away. If you are a preferential child sex offender,
there's no reforming you when you're in jail, at least not in my opinion.
Name you guys, keep in mind, this is all our opinion.
You can take it with a grain of salt or no. There are certain
people that I don't want to see getting out and that I don't think prison
is necessarily going to help reform them or rehabilitate them. But I do think
in your excellent example, Bill, if you have a youthful offender or somebody
who they're having a bad day and they acted rashly and impetuously and stupid,
and they did something that they shouldn't have done, but they can learn from
it and be reformed and released again, I think absolutely you can use the
criminal justice system as a form of rehabilitation, reform, whatever you want to
call it. But I also agree with you we're not doing it well.
And speaking of not doing it well, let me just hit you with a
few statistics. The Office of Justice Programs has put out statistics and I just
will choose these as fairly recent update on prisoner recidivism and estimated sixty eight percent
of released prisoners this is for felonies were arrested within three years. So sixty
eight percent within three years, seventy nine percent within six years, and eighty
three percent will reoffend within nine years. We're clearly falling terribly short on the
idea of form. There's a lot more work that needs to be done.
I completely agree with your point about extremely violent and sexually violent prisoners should not
be allowed back into society. Yet we know from so many cases that we've
taken a look at, some of which we've discussed here on Mind over Murder,
we see sexual offenders released over and over, and many of them escalating
their crimes as they move forward throughout their twisted lives exactly. And so Print
number two is whether you think rehabilitation is possible, And I've already answered this
that with people who have these deep psychological compulsions to rape, to abuse children,
or whatever, I don't think rehabilitation is possible to the extent that we
can let them walk out of prison and assume that they're going to be fine.
Like I said, I don't want child tech offenders, don't rapists,
I don't want stalkers, I don't want anyone along the lines back out in
society again, because as you just pointed out, the recipivism rate is way
too high, and all you're going to have at that point is people women
specifically, who are scared to go outside because they know that the person who
has hurt them has been released, but they're very likely to reoffend. I
don't know that rehabilitation is possible the way that we hope it can be and
will be used. Agreed and flipping around this statistic of eighty three percent a
person's convicted of felonies reoffending within nine years, I'm hoping that seventeen percent of
people who are able to get out of jail, turn their lives and move
forward can grow. If we do a better job of serving these people,
will see a higher percentage of people able to move forward in their lives in
a positive way. I recognize that's really difficult, but I still can't help
but think that's the goal. I'm completely on board with you in terms of
being very disturbed by people that are involved in really serious offenses, particularly against
vulnerable populations like women and children. It's very difficult to see a path towards
reform and rehabilitation in many of those examples. I know that I find it
incredibly disturbing when you hear about people that have preyed on children being released over
and over again, ultimately to be convicted of similar offenses or escalating ones.
I just think there's no way around those disturbing statistics. M I'm going to
change up my order here real quick because I want to save one of my
criteria for last. Okay, So the next criteria is the person likely to
reoffend or are they a threat to society? Do I think Leslie Van Houghton,
at seventy three years old is going to go and full under this way
of accult leader and stub somebody to death. Probably not. I don't know.
It could be proven a wrong, but probably not if we're looking at
her in particular. But as you've pointed out with your recidivism rates, there
are plenty of people that are likely to go out and reoffend. Maybe not
immediately, maybe it takes them a couple of years. But I think that
has to be taken into account. Is this person going to go out and
just do the same thing that they did that put him in there in the
first place, with maybe a little bit of variation. That is something to
look at. I don't think that's something that we need to worry about in
Vin Houghton's case, but it is definitely something to be taken into consideration.
I agree, and I don't regard van Houghton as someone who is likely to
reoffend, but I think the seriousness of her crimes has to be one of
the areas where the State of California has to consider those issues in considering her
parole. I'm a big fan of California Governor Gavin Newsom. I lived in
California for thirteen years until we moved to Connecticut five years ago. I like
the governor very much. He apparently had moved to block her parole three times
previously. This time around, the State of California and their spokesperson said that
they were extremely unhappy with ben Houghton being paroled, but they felt that it
was unlikely that the State of California would prevail if they were to appeal this,
keeping in mind the parole board makes the decision, not the governor of
California. Whether you like him or not, she has come up for parole
repeatedly been turned down any number of times. I feel like it was fairly
recently because we end up seeing that headline. I've seen it so many times
over the last couple of years, and every time I'm like, we're going
to turn her down again. I was really surprised. Yeah, She was
most recently turned down after the governor interceded in March twenty twenty two. So
she's clearly coming up for parole much more frequently now. They did fight it,
they were able to block it. They did not feel they being the
state of California, did not feel that they were going to be able to
continue blocking her parole, and so they are unhappy about it and have indicated
as such in their public statements. But they're not going to fight the parole
board yet again. When you get to fifty plus years in the penal system,
if you are found to be the model prisoner that Leslie van Houghton has
been described as, she was going to start coming up for parole much more
frequently because the idea, I believe from the perspective of the parole board is
this person probably deserves to be released into a halfway house and integrated back into
society. I think it was last year. Everything has lured together since the
pandemic. Let's be real about it, but I'm pretty sure that it was
last year that Sirhan came up for parole. That's another case where I don't
think I want Bobby Kennedy was not a president, of course, but he
was a president brother, well known public figure. I don't want an assassin
out there, no matter how long it's done, and a presidential candidate actively
running for president at that time, which is why Sarsarhun chose to murder him.
I know Governor knew Some blocked that attempt as well. For parole,
and if the Kennedy family has anything to say about it, I'm sure that
he'll stay locked up for as long as possible. So another thing that you
need to consider. And again this goes not only to Van Houghton, but
also to Sir Hunt. I would argue, is a crime so hanous that
the person needs to serve life with no chance of ever getting out is the
ultimate punishment. You're there until you die. So the crime is that saying
it's so handous. From my perspective, yes, I think in both the
examples we've just used in the Manson family, murders of the LaBianca family and
others, and you just mentioned Senator Kennedy's murder at the hands of Sir Hunt,
I think both of those examples are so heinous that those individuals who are
responsible for those deaths should die in prison. There was never a question.
For example, the Charles Manson was ever going to come up for parole ever,
he was never going to and he did die in prison. Same with
Susan Atkins. I'm hoping that all the rest of them, Tex Watson,
Bobby Bosilli, and Patricia Cranwinkle, I'm hoping they die in prison as well.
It sounds callous, I know they committed truly heinous, awful acts.
As somebody in our social media feed said, if you've seen the crime scene
photos, and the Manson crime scene photos are readily available thanks to the Internet,
if you've looked at the crime scene photos, it is a truly it's
a horror show in every sense of the word. It is a horror show.
Which they did to those victims is unconscionable and so for me, yeah,
I think she needs to stay locked up until she dies. That is
the ultimate punishment. Now I have friends who argue with me vociferously. Can't
you have grace of them? Can't you turn the other cheek? Don't you
think she's suffered enough? I'm so strongly and so firmly on the side of
the victims families in all cases, but especially in something like this. I
don't have grace for a convicted murderer. I don't, I absolutely do not.
What she did to them is heinous and awful, so no, I
think she needs to stay locked up. Keeping in mind that a number of
these people were likely going to be headed to a sentence of death, which
was later rescinded. The state of California has not put a person to death
in a number of years, So many of these people's sentences were commuted from
a death sentence to life in prison, and of course there's life in prison
with parole and without parole. I'm with you. I think that a life
sentence should be a life sentence, and I'm always shocked when people get out
after twenty years or something like that. That's not the situation we're describing in
these examples. Twenty years, to me, is sufficient for a brutal murder
is fifty years. From my point of view, Leslie Van Haaughton and all
the rest of these killers should die behind bars. And the final thing that
I think we really need to take into consideration here is whether the victims family
should be taken into account when considering parole. And my answer to that is
always going to be yes, I would agree, and I hope at some
point that the proper people are identified, indicted, tried, and convicted for
the Colonial Parkway murders. People have said to me, Bill, your only
partway through your own personal journey in terms of your sister's death and the death
of the other victims and the Colonial Parkway murders. I hope that's the case.
But I certainly think that families should be consulted and their feelings, which
admittedly are very strong, should be taken into consideration. They have been in
the Van Houghton example, and I'm sure they will be again should any of
the rest of these people come up for parole. Yeah. I do want
to quote here from some of the reporting, and this one is from NBC
News. Gary Hinman, who is another Manson family victim. He was not
killed during that rampage, but he was killed by the Manson family. Gary
Himan's cousin came Martley, who is eighty six years old, said every governor
since Schwarzenegger has rescinded the paroles on the Manson murderers. Governor knew some let
the judicial system overrid his parole power, which will impact every victim's family,
not just those of us fighting against the Manson killers. She's got a point.
And here's this woman who's now in her eighties, who's had to live
with this for basically her entire life. You've got Sharon Tate's sisters who every
single time that any of these guys is up for parole, they're right there,
but they're making statements, they're reminding people this is what they did to
Sharon Tate. They murdered her nine month old fetus. God, it defies
words, it defies description what they did to her. I just no one
involved in that needs to leave prison. I don't care that you've been behind
bars for fifty three years. I don't care that you're a model prisoner.
I don't care that you have reformed, that you have gotten degrees, that
you've done something with your life. I don't care. You did this awful
thing. You made this terrible choice. You got to live with it.
You got to accept the consequences. And the consequences are you stay in jail
until the end of your life. I know that probably sounds hard, and
I'm sure I'm going to get some pushback on it, but honestly, that's
just the way I feel you're listening to Mind over Murder. Will be right
back after this word from our sponsors. We're back here at Mind over Murder.
So let's turn to some of our listener comments and see what they have
to say. First of all, thank you to everybody who responds to whatever
it is that we put up, whether it's just a question or an art
or whatever. We had a ton of people who weighed in on this particular
article. And this is from NBC News. It's titled Manson family killer Leslie
Van Houghton freedom Parole. Okay, so let's see here, and I'm not
going to quote from everybody, but I will just start with a couple.
Let's start with Chris. So. Chris writes, I think she regrets what
she did. I think if I were a family member of a victim,
I would be unable to forgive. I thought she would never get out.
But should she have been released, I don't know. As the family member
of a murder victim who has not yet had a offender identified, I think
most people in our shoes would strongly object to offenders being released, regardless of
the number of years that have passed. I understand how Chris feels and how
difficult it is to make a decision. Van Houghton is a unique individual in
that she killed the La Biancas so young that it's been more than fifty years
since she's been incarcerated. At the same time, as you mentioned a moment
ago, Kristen, if you go back and take a look at those crime
scene photos, they are horrifying. And that's what happened, and this is
that in the second night of a series of murders committed by this group of
highly sick individuals. Julie says, I think any family member that spoke against
her release should be heard. Her original sentence was not one of her form
It was for punishment of her crimes. Families of victims should always have the
final word, and honestly, whether she's a threat to reoffend is not an
issue. I'd have to agree. I don't think she should have been released.
I think this is a terrible decision. At the same time, I
understand that the parole board also has a job to do and they felt that
Leslie van Houghton should be considered for parole. This one's from a lame When
she was originally sentenced, it was death penalty, but then on a technicality
she was given life. She was lucky to get life. I think there's
some vicious crimes. There is no making it right. The crime scene photos
put on full display her savage brutality. I bet the LaBianca family would have
liked a second chance at life versus death. Couldn't agree more very well,
said Ronda says. I would have to see if she was really reformed,
if she served her sentence properly and was sure not to reoffend. She has
been there a lifetime. It seems her crime was horrific and part of me
would wish the worst upon her. But is that fair? I'm not sure.
Revenge and justice are strange bedfellows, And boy do I like that,
Ronda, Revenge and justice are strange bedfellows. Now, she makes a very
good point. Now, everything I've read about Leslie Ben Houghton does say that
she has been a model prisoner and that she has made a significant effort to
reform herself, as you mentioned earlier, Kristen going back and getting multiple degrees.
But I can admire what Leslie van Houghton has done with her life and
still condemn what she did as a nineteen year old young woman. Rachelle and
Stacy both brought up basically the same point here. Rachelle says, I'd like
to back up, how did a death sentence that was reversed on appeal and
was sentenced to life with the possibility of parole all caps. It should have
been life with no parole. Therefore, I believe she should not have been
released. Yeah, I think that's a good point, and I'm not sure
how that. I'm not sure how that happened. Manson was never going to
be released. I think we mentioned that earlier. Why was Spanhaughton traded differently?
And remember, for anybody who isn't familiar with the Manson case or who
doesn't remember, Manson never laid a hand on anybody. Manson did not wield
a weapon. He instructed all of his evil little minions to do the killing
for him. Manson did not actually kill anybody, and still he was sentenced
to life in prison, no parole. So I'm just not sure why the
person who savagely stabbed Rosemary la Bianca should get out on parole. I do
want to correct something. Charles Manson was considered for parole multiple times. I
was Oh my gosh. Wow, was he really He was coming up on
parole about every five years. Oh my gosh, up to the time he
died. Can you imagine Charles Manson. No parole board in the world was
going to grant him parole. But I just wow, the idea of Charles
Manson loose in the world is terrifying. Now. I don't remember all the
particulars of the Manson trial. I was a teenager when the murders took place,
and I remember following the case and seeing his very scary picture in the
newspaper. Again, folks, this is before the thing they call the Internet.
You saw him on the nightly news and in the newspaper, and I
remember reading a number of articles about Manson. He was a very dark and
disturbing figure. Even Charles Manson was considered for parole in multiple occasions. I
don't think I knew that. That's very interesting. I hate the idea of
it, but we have k Kurt says, I agree with the decision to
release her on parole. I've read transcripts of her past parole hearings and it
was obvious to me that after fifty three years, she really has taken her
rehabilitation seriously. Now, Kurt's perspective is certainly valid. And then Kurt's also
done some additional homework about what she's been up to in prison, and he's
gone back and read some of the transcripts of her parole hearings. Understood,
and I completely respect his and other people's perspectives. I just don't see it
that way. I think she should have died in prison along with the rest
of these people. And by the way, I'm always impressed by the number
of our listeners who have done a huge amount of homework on any given case
and can offer these really thoughtful, nuanced opinions. That always makes me so
happy to know that there are people out there who were like, they're not
just jumping on TikTok and being like, here's my five minutes worth of information,
that they've really actually done a lot of homework. I love that.
That makes me really excited. I also respect the fact that I know that
a number of people who follow true crime tend to be pretty hardcore supporters of
law enforcement. But I'm always pleasantly surprised when people come along with a variety
of different perspectives, so we're not all marching in lockstep. I completely understand
why someone like Kurt would feel that the way that they do. Fifty three
years is a tremendous amount of time to serve in prison for a crime you've
committed when you were nineteen years old. I'm refreshed by the fact that here's
a true crime fan. I think they listen to Mind over Murder and comment,
and yet they see things very differently in this example than I do.
By the way, so far, we've studiously managed to avoid this turning into
a debate about the death penalty, which is a whole another discussion. I'm
sure there are people that follow Mind over Murder, and there's a lot of
people out there there who might have supported a death penalty and an execution,
or perhaps Charles Manson and some of his followers. I don't know. I'm
not trying to open up that can of worms, right. It is interesting
that at the time of the Manson murderers, how sad that I have to
use his name, that the death penalty was an option, and that California
was putting people to death back then. And I'm actually surprised that in this
whole discussion no one has once brought up the death penalty or said that they
think she should have died in prison. We've got a number of different people
who have just said she's done her time. I support her release. There
are people who are on the fence. Crystal, for example, says,
I'm on the fence. Those were horrific murders, but she served over fifty
years. A number of options here that sort of run the gamut from I
come down on one side or the other two. I'm on the fence,
So I'm always happy to be able to put something up and then I can
see the comments rolling in as I'm getting notifications on my phone, and I
know it's always to be an excellent debate. Speaking of death penalty, by
the way, technically the death penalty still exists in the state of California.
Prosecutors can still seek it. They haven't put anyone to death in the state
of California in seventeen years. Such a sentence still exists. It is effectively
life in prison without parole if they're not actually executing people. My understanding is
if you're on death row, you are treated very differently than people in gen
pop. My understanding is if you're on death row. You're in your cell
twenty three hours a day, except you've got one hour for recreation or whatever.
So I can see why, even if you know that someone is never
going to be put to death, if you do argue, hey, they
should be on death row. I think that does argue. For you only
get one hour of liberty a day, you deserve twenty three hours a day
locked up in a hole. That's one of the reasons why I would advocate
for keeping the death penalty there. Even if no one's ever going to be
executed, at least treat them like they're on death row. It's worth noting
that a handful of states have executed prisoners. In the year twenty twenty three,
Florida, Missouri, Oklahoma, and Texas all put people to death,
and the previous year twenty twenty two, Alabama and Mississippi had also put prisoners
to death. So it looks like six states are currently actively implementing the death
penalty, with many other states either having made the death penalty illegal or effectively
dormant, as they have in the state of California. Yeah, the last
execution in Virginia was in July of twenty seventeen, and that was carried out
the e lethal injection. Interestingly enough, we always have a discussion with the
death penalty when I teach in Cold Blood to my APE students, and they're
always surprised to note that. I think we tend to think of Texas or
Florida as being the most prolific states for executions. It's actually Virginia because we've
had it longer. We've had the death penalty since sixteen oh eight. Wow,
I mean, yeah, there were colonists here in sixteen oh seven.
I suppose, not even a year end. Somebody decided there had to be
a reason why we put someone to death. Virginia actually leads all fifty of
the states in terms of rate of execution using the death penalty. Not a
big fan of the death penalty. As I said, we're here to talk
about Leslie van Houghton, who will now be living in a halfway house at
least for the foreseeable future. Can you imagine? As somebody had mentioned it,
and some of the reporting that I was reading had mentioned the fact that
what a learning curve she's going to have to learn how to use a debit
card because she hasn't handled money for years. He's got to learn how to
use debit card. She's got to learn how to drive. There are all
these things that you miss when you've been imprisoned for fifty three years. That's
crazy in and of itself. I think, yeah, I would imagine this
is going to be quite an adjustment for her. And I don't know whether
she would ever appear in public or something like that. I and certainly her
face is well known enough the news reporting has never been shy about showing pictures
of her. Her pictures out there, people would recognize her. I don't
know. I think it's going to be very interesting to see what comes of
this to recap. I'm not thrilled about it. I don't think it should
have happened. I think with a crime as heinous as the one that she
committed with the Manson family, she needs to stay in jail until the end
of her life. But of course that's not our decision to make any final
thoughts from you, Bill, No, I think that was very well said.
I think I'm on the same page there. We do want to thank
everybody for their feedback and lively discussion on our Facebook page, not only to
that article, but to everything else. That we post. We really do
appreciate it. We hope that you continue to enthusiastically engage with us on our
Facebook page. That's going to do it for this episode of mind Over Murder.
Thank you so much for listening. We'll see you next time. Mind
Over Murder is a production of Absolute Zero and Another Dog Productions. Our executive
producers are Bill Thomas and Kristin Dilley. Our logo art is by Pamela Arnois.
Our theme music is by Kevin McLeod. Mind Over Murder is distributed in
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five six. Thank you for listening to mind Over Murder. D