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You're listening to the Mind over Murder
podcast. My name is Bill Thomas.

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I'm a writer, consulting, producer, and now podcaster. I am now

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trying to use my experience as the
brother of a murder victim to help other

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victims of violent crime. I'm working
on a book on the unsolved Colonial Parkway

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murders and I'm the co administrator of
the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook group together with

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Kristin Dilley. My name is Kristin
Dilley. I'm a writer, a researcher,

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a teacher, and a victim's advocate, as well as the social media

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manager and co administrator for the Colonial
Parkway Murders Facebook page with my partner in

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crime, Bill Thomas. Welcome to
Mind of a Murder. I'm Kristin Dilley

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and I'm Bill Thomas, and today
we are covering the role of Leslie van

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Houghton. She is one of the
six Manson Family killers still in jail.

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Van Houghton, aged seventy three,
was released on parole on Tuesday after more

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than fifty years behind bars. For
anybody who is unfamiliar with the Manson family

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killings, let me give you a
brief riendown here. Leslie van Houghton was

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originally given the death sentence for her
role in the murders of Rosemary and Leno

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La Bianca. They were killed on
the second night of the Manson family's murderous

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rampage through Los Angeles, so this
is after the Sharon Tate murders. She

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along with Tex Watson and Manson,
tied up the La Bianca's. Leslie van

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Houghton then helped to stab Rosemary La
Bianca to death, stabbing her between thirteen

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and sixteen times. Van Houghton is
only the second Manson family member of the

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six who were convicted to be parole. According to NBC, family member Steve

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Clem Grogan's death sentence was reduced to
life in nineteen seventy one, and he

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was paroled in nineteen eighty five.
As to the other members of the Manson

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family, as we all know,
Charles Manson died in jail in twenty seventeen

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while serving out a life sentence,
Susan Atkins died in two thousand and nine,

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and still serving their sentences is Tex
Watson, Bobby Bosleigh, and Patricia

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Crenwinkle, all of whom are still
serving out their sentences for murders committed during

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their time with the Manson family.
Very interesting when I opened up my news

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feed yesterday and learned that Leslie Van
Houghton had been paroled, because honestly,

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I'm not entirely sure it was the
right call. What do you think though?

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I think it was completely the wrong
call, and I'm extremely disappointed that

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the state of California has decided to
parole Leslie van Houghton. I recognize that

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she is now seventy three years old, and she doesn't represent a threat to

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society or probably anybody at this point. At the same time, when you

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actually get into the details of these
murders, it's shocking how horrible these murders

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were. Mister and Missus la Bianca
died for no reason at all except for

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the fact that they were successful business
people who owned grocery stores. There's no

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reason whatsoever to kill these people.
At the murders that took place the previous

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evening or at the La Bianca home. Leslie van Houghton is a brutal murderer.

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She may be a harmless seventy three
year old lady at this point,

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but she was a crazed nineteen year
old killer under the spell of a cult

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leader. She stabbed these people to
death. Let me read from the New

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York Times, who are not usually
this graphic. Miss van Houghton has not

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been shot about her role in the
killings, saying in a parole board hearing

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in two thousand and two that she
had pinned down Miss La Bianca while another

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Manson family member, Patricia Krenwinkle,
stabbed her in the collar bone. Charles

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Watson aka Text, another figure in
the attack, stabbed Miss La Bianca with

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a bayonet eight times before Van Houghton
then stabbed her in the abdomen fourteen to

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sixteen times. We're talking about brutality
at the most extreme level. And yes,

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fifty three years have gone by,
and as I said, I don't

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think that Leslie van Houghton represents a
threat. At the same time, I

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believe strongly that if you brutally murder
someone like this, you deserve to spend

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the rest of your life in jail. And that's from now until death her

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death. No, I don't know
the status on Tex Watson, Bobby Bosela,

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Patricia Krenwinkle. I don't know if
any of them are up for parole.

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When I put this up on our
mind of a murder Facebook page,

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which is always a great place to
get way in from our listeners, we

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had such a wide spectrum of opinions
on this that I had to codify for

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myself, Okay, what are the
major points that are coming into play here?

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So I think that when we're when
we're thinking about Leslie van Houghton and

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whether or not she does deserve par
role, we do take into account things

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like the seriousness of the crime absolutely
and whether or not she's going to reoffend.

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But ultimately, looking at the broad
spectrum of responses, I basically found

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that there are a couple of things
we all need to take into account as

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we're discussing this. I think that
when you think about this sort of things,

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you have to consider five different variables. Number one, what is the

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role of the criminal justice system?
Is it to punish or is it to

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reform? You also has to think
about whether rehabilitation is possible. And according

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to a number of reports that I've
seen, people have said that Leslie van

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Houghton is a model inmate, has
been for a number of years. She

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has gotten a number of degrees while
she was in prison, she has made

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every effort to reform herself, which
goes back to number one, So do

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you think rehabilitation is possible? Number
three the victims families? Should they be

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taken into account when considering parole,
and we'll talk a little bit about what

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some of the families have said about
Leslie van Houghton being granted parole. Number

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Four, you have to take in
is the person likely to reoffend? And

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you've already indicated I think this is
true too that probably no, she is

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not going to go out and stab
somebody to death. Again. Number five,

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has the person been punished enough?
Is fifty three years enough punishment for

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what they've done? And then finally
you have to consider is a crime so

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heinous that the person needs to serve
life with no chance of ever getting out.

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I think in this case you could
definitely argue that the Manson family murders

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both night one and Night two would
definitely be considered a hanous enough that I

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don't think she deserves to out it, truly don't. But I think that

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does come down to the fact that
there are so many people on our Facebook

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page who were like, yet it
was an awful crime, but she served

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her time, and then there are
people who were like, this is so

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awful, she never deserves to get
out. So what are your thoughts on

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those, Bilm. Let's go back
through the five points, yes, a

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bit more slowly, and let's both
respond to those things before we move on

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to our Facebook comments, which I
thought were very interesting and offered a variety

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of perspectives from mind of her murder
listeners, which we very much appreciate.

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So let's go through the points one
through five. Okay, so point number

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one, what do you think the
role of the criminal justice system should be?

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Is the criminal justice system about punishment
or is it about reform? I

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think it has to serve a dual
purpose. For someone who's committed a less

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serious crime, let's say vandalism or
even assault or car theft for example.

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At a similar age, I'm going
to say someone who's in their late teens,

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like Leslie van Houghton was at the
time, I think there's a lot

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of opportunity for reform. Even though
youthful offenders sometimes will reoffend. Hopefully with

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a well run penal system, the
opportunity for reform can be part of the

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mix so that someone will serve a
certain number of years for their crime,

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and then hopefully get out and not
reoffend and be able to assimilate back into

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society and move forward. So I
think it needs to provide both punishment and

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the opportunity to reform oneself. It
seems from what we've read that our current

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system and the facilities were using for
incarceration seem to be failing terribly. The

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percentage of reoffense is very high.
I think that should be the goal.

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No, I agree. I think
there are certain types of offenders who should

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never see the light of day again
because their offense is so heinous. I

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do not want rapists to see the
light of day again. I do not

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want child sex offenders or sex traffickers
to see the light of day again,

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because that is from my understanding of
all of our psychologist, psychiatrist and profiling

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friends, that's a compulsion. That's
a psychological compulsion that I don't think is

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ever going to go away. If
you are a preferential child sex offender,

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there's no reforming you when you're in
jail, at least not in my opinion.

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Name you guys, keep in mind, this is all our opinion.

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You can take it with a grain
of salt or no. There are certain

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people that I don't want to see
getting out and that I don't think prison

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is necessarily going to help reform them
or rehabilitate them. But I do think

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in your excellent example, Bill,
if you have a youthful offender or somebody

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who they're having a bad day and
they acted rashly and impetuously and stupid,

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and they did something that they shouldn't
have done, but they can learn from

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it and be reformed and released again, I think absolutely you can use the

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criminal justice system as a form of
rehabilitation, reform, whatever you want to

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call it. But I also agree
with you we're not doing it well.

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And speaking of not doing it well, let me just hit you with a

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few statistics. The Office of Justice
Programs has put out statistics and I just

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will choose these as fairly recent update
on prisoner recidivism and estimated sixty eight percent

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of released prisoners this is for felonies
were arrested within three years. So sixty

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eight percent within three years, seventy
nine percent within six years, and eighty

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three percent will reoffend within nine years. We're clearly falling terribly short on the

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idea of form. There's a lot
more work that needs to be done.

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I completely agree with your point about
extremely violent and sexually violent prisoners should not

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be allowed back into society. Yet
we know from so many cases that we've

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taken a look at, some of
which we've discussed here on Mind over Murder,

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we see sexual offenders released over and
over, and many of them escalating

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their crimes as they move forward throughout
their twisted lives exactly. And so Print

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number two is whether you think rehabilitation
is possible, And I've already answered this

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that with people who have these deep
psychological compulsions to rape, to abuse children,

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or whatever, I don't think rehabilitation
is possible to the extent that we

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can let them walk out of prison
and assume that they're going to be fine.

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Like I said, I don't want
child tech offenders, don't rapists,

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I don't want stalkers, I don't
want anyone along the lines back out in

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society again, because as you just
pointed out, the recipivism rate is way

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too high, and all you're going
to have at that point is people women

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specifically, who are scared to go
outside because they know that the person who

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has hurt them has been released,
but they're very likely to reoffend. I

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don't know that rehabilitation is possible the
way that we hope it can be and

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will be used. Agreed and flipping
around this statistic of eighty three percent a

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person's convicted of felonies reoffending within nine
years, I'm hoping that seventeen percent of

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people who are able to get out
of jail, turn their lives and move

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forward can grow. If we do
a better job of serving these people,

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will see a higher percentage of people
able to move forward in their lives in

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a positive way. I recognize that's
really difficult, but I still can't help

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but think that's the goal. I'm
completely on board with you in terms of

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being very disturbed by people that are
involved in really serious offenses, particularly against

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vulnerable populations like women and children.
It's very difficult to see a path towards

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reform and rehabilitation in many of those
examples. I know that I find it

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incredibly disturbing when you hear about people
that have preyed on children being released over

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and over again, ultimately to be
convicted of similar offenses or escalating ones.

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I just think there's no way around
those disturbing statistics. M I'm going to

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change up my order here real quick
because I want to save one of my

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criteria for last. Okay, So
the next criteria is the person likely to

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reoffend or are they a threat to
society? Do I think Leslie Van Houghton,

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at seventy three years old is going
to go and full under this way

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of accult leader and stub somebody to
death. Probably not. I don't know.

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It could be proven a wrong,
but probably not if we're looking at

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her in particular. But as you've
pointed out with your recidivism rates, there

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are plenty of people that are likely
to go out and reoffend. Maybe not

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immediately, maybe it takes them a
couple of years. But I think that

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has to be taken into account.
Is this person going to go out and

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just do the same thing that they
did that put him in there in the

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first place, with maybe a little
bit of variation. That is something to

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look at. I don't think that's
something that we need to worry about in

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Vin Houghton's case, but it is
definitely something to be taken into consideration.

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I agree, and I don't regard
van Houghton as someone who is likely to

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reoffend, but I think the seriousness
of her crimes has to be one of

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the areas where the State of California
has to consider those issues in considering her

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parole. I'm a big fan of
California Governor Gavin Newsom. I lived in

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California for thirteen years until we moved
to Connecticut five years ago. I like

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the governor very much. He apparently
had moved to block her parole three times

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previously. This time around, the
State of California and their spokesperson said that

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they were extremely unhappy with ben Houghton
being paroled, but they felt that it

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was unlikely that the State of California
would prevail if they were to appeal this,

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keeping in mind the parole board makes
the decision, not the governor of

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California. Whether you like him or
not, she has come up for parole

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repeatedly been turned down any number of
times. I feel like it was fairly

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recently because we end up seeing that
headline. I've seen it so many times

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over the last couple of years,
and every time I'm like, we're going

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to turn her down again. I
was really surprised. Yeah, She was

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most recently turned down after the governor
interceded in March twenty twenty two. So

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she's clearly coming up for parole much
more frequently now. They did fight it,

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they were able to block it.
They did not feel they being the

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state of California, did not feel
that they were going to be able to

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continue blocking her parole, and so
they are unhappy about it and have indicated

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as such in their public statements.
But they're not going to fight the parole

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board yet again. When you get
to fifty plus years in the penal system,

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if you are found to be the
model prisoner that Leslie van Houghton has

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been described as, she was going
to start coming up for parole much more

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frequently because the idea, I believe
from the perspective of the parole board is

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this person probably deserves to be released
into a halfway house and integrated back into

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society. I think it was last
year. Everything has lured together since the

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pandemic. Let's be real about it, but I'm pretty sure that it was

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last year that Sirhan came up for
parole. That's another case where I don't

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think I want Bobby Kennedy was not
a president, of course, but he

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was a president brother, well known
public figure. I don't want an assassin

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out there, no matter how long
it's done, and a presidential candidate actively

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running for president at that time,
which is why Sarsarhun chose to murder him.

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I know Governor knew Some blocked that
attempt as well. For parole,

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and if the Kennedy family has anything
to say about it, I'm sure that

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he'll stay locked up for as long
as possible. So another thing that you

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need to consider. And again this
goes not only to Van Houghton, but

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also to Sir Hunt. I would
argue, is a crime so hanous that

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the person needs to serve life with
no chance of ever getting out is the

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ultimate punishment. You're there until you
die. So the crime is that saying

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it's so handous. From my perspective, yes, I think in both the

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examples we've just used in the Manson
family, murders of the LaBianca family and

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others, and you just mentioned Senator
Kennedy's murder at the hands of Sir Hunt,

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I think both of those examples are
so heinous that those individuals who are

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responsible for those deaths should die in
prison. There was never a question.

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For example, the Charles Manson was
ever going to come up for parole ever,

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he was never going to and he
did die in prison. Same with

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Susan Atkins. I'm hoping that all
the rest of them, Tex Watson,

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Bobby Bosilli, and Patricia Cranwinkle,
I'm hoping they die in prison as well.

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It sounds callous, I know they
committed truly heinous, awful acts.

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As somebody in our social media feed
said, if you've seen the crime scene

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photos, and the Manson crime scene
photos are readily available thanks to the Internet,

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if you've looked at the crime scene
photos, it is a truly it's

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a horror show in every sense of
the word. It is a horror show.

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Which they did to those victims is
unconscionable and so for me, yeah,

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I think she needs to stay locked
up until she dies. That is

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the ultimate punishment. Now I have
friends who argue with me vociferously. Can't

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you have grace of them? Can't
you turn the other cheek? Don't you

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think she's suffered enough? I'm so
strongly and so firmly on the side of

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the victims families in all cases,
but especially in something like this. I

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don't have grace for a convicted murderer. I don't, I absolutely do not.

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What she did to them is heinous
and awful, so no, I

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think she needs to stay locked up. Keeping in mind that a number of

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these people were likely going to be
headed to a sentence of death, which

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was later rescinded. The state of
California has not put a person to death

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in a number of years, So
many of these people's sentences were commuted from

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a death sentence to life in prison, and of course there's life in prison

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with parole and without parole. I'm
with you. I think that a life

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sentence should be a life sentence,
and I'm always shocked when people get out

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after twenty years or something like that. That's not the situation we're describing in

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these examples. Twenty years, to
me, is sufficient for a brutal murder

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is fifty years. From my point
of view, Leslie Van Haaughton and all

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the rest of these killers should die
behind bars. And the final thing that

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I think we really need to take
into consideration here is whether the victims family

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should be taken into account when considering
parole. And my answer to that is

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always going to be yes, I
would agree, and I hope at some

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point that the proper people are identified, indicted, tried, and convicted for

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the Colonial Parkway murders. People have
said to me, Bill, your only

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partway through your own personal journey in
terms of your sister's death and the death

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of the other victims and the Colonial
Parkway murders. I hope that's the case.

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But I certainly think that families should
be consulted and their feelings, which

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admittedly are very strong, should be
taken into consideration. They have been in

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the Van Houghton example, and I'm
sure they will be again should any of

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the rest of these people come up
for parole. Yeah. I do want

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to quote here from some of the
reporting, and this one is from NBC

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News. Gary Hinman, who is
another Manson family victim. He was not

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killed during that rampage, but he
was killed by the Manson family. Gary

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Himan's cousin came Martley, who is
eighty six years old, said every governor

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since Schwarzenegger has rescinded the paroles on
the Manson murderers. Governor knew some let

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the judicial system overrid his parole power, which will impact every victim's family,

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not just those of us fighting against
the Manson killers. She's got a point.

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And here's this woman who's now in
her eighties, who's had to live

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with this for basically her entire life. You've got Sharon Tate's sisters who every

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single time that any of these guys
is up for parole, they're right there,

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but they're making statements, they're reminding
people this is what they did to

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Sharon Tate. They murdered her nine
month old fetus. God, it defies

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words, it defies description what they
did to her. I just no one

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involved in that needs to leave prison. I don't care that you've been behind

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bars for fifty three years. I
don't care that you're a model prisoner.

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I don't care that you have reformed, that you have gotten degrees, that

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you've done something with your life.
I don't care. You did this awful

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thing. You made this terrible choice. You got to live with it.

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You got to accept the consequences.
And the consequences are you stay in jail

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until the end of your life.
I know that probably sounds hard, and

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I'm sure I'm going to get some
pushback on it, but honestly, that's

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just the way I feel you're listening
to Mind over Murder. Will be right

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back after this word from our sponsors. We're back here at Mind over Murder.

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So let's turn to some of our
listener comments and see what they have

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to say. First of all,
thank you to everybody who responds to whatever

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it is that we put up,
whether it's just a question or an art

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or whatever. We had a ton
of people who weighed in on this particular

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article. And this is from NBC
News. It's titled Manson family killer Leslie

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Van Houghton freedom Parole. Okay,
so let's see here, and I'm not

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going to quote from everybody, but
I will just start with a couple.

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Let's start with Chris. So.
Chris writes, I think she regrets what

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she did. I think if I
were a family member of a victim,

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I would be unable to forgive.
I thought she would never get out.

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But should she have been released,
I don't know. As the family member

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of a murder victim who has not
yet had a offender identified, I think

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most people in our shoes would strongly
object to offenders being released, regardless of

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the number of years that have passed. I understand how Chris feels and how

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difficult it is to make a decision. Van Houghton is a unique individual in

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that she killed the La Biancas so
young that it's been more than fifty years

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since she's been incarcerated. At the
same time, as you mentioned a moment

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ago, Kristen, if you go
back and take a look at those crime

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scene photos, they are horrifying.
And that's what happened, and this is

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that in the second night of a
series of murders committed by this group of

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highly sick individuals. Julie says,
I think any family member that spoke against

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her release should be heard. Her
original sentence was not one of her form

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It was for punishment of her crimes. Families of victims should always have the

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final word, and honestly, whether
she's a threat to reoffend is not an

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issue. I'd have to agree.
I don't think she should have been released.

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I think this is a terrible decision. At the same time, I

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understand that the parole board also has
a job to do and they felt that

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Leslie van Houghton should be considered for
parole. This one's from a lame When

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she was originally sentenced, it was
death penalty, but then on a technicality

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she was given life. She was
lucky to get life. I think there's

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some vicious crimes. There is no
making it right. The crime scene photos

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put on full display her savage brutality. I bet the LaBianca family would have

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liked a second chance at life versus
death. Couldn't agree more very well,

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said Ronda says. I would have
to see if she was really reformed,

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if she served her sentence properly and
was sure not to reoffend. She has

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been there a lifetime. It seems
her crime was horrific and part of me

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would wish the worst upon her.
But is that fair? I'm not sure.

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Revenge and justice are strange bedfellows,
And boy do I like that,

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Ronda, Revenge and justice are strange
bedfellows. Now, she makes a very

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good point. Now, everything I've
read about Leslie Ben Houghton does say that

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she has been a model prisoner and
that she has made a significant effort to

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reform herself, as you mentioned earlier, Kristen going back and getting multiple degrees.

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But I can admire what Leslie van
Houghton has done with her life and

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still condemn what she did as a
nineteen year old young woman. Rachelle and

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Stacy both brought up basically the same
point here. Rachelle says, I'd like

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to back up, how did a
death sentence that was reversed on appeal and

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was sentenced to life with the possibility
of parole all caps. It should have

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been life with no parole. Therefore, I believe she should not have been

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released. Yeah, I think that's
a good point, and I'm not sure

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how that. I'm not sure how
that happened. Manson was never going to

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be released. I think we mentioned
that earlier. Why was Spanhaughton traded differently?

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And remember, for anybody who isn't
familiar with the Manson case or who

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doesn't remember, Manson never laid a
hand on anybody. Manson did not wield

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a weapon. He instructed all of
his evil little minions to do the killing

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for him. Manson did not actually
kill anybody, and still he was sentenced

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to life in prison, no parole. So I'm just not sure why the

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person who savagely stabbed Rosemary la Bianca
should get out on parole. I do

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want to correct something. Charles Manson
was considered for parole multiple times. I

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00:27:03,960 --> 00:27:08,839
was Oh my gosh. Wow,
was he really He was coming up on

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parole about every five years. Oh
my gosh, up to the time he

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died. Can you imagine Charles Manson. No parole board in the world was

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going to grant him parole. But
I just wow, the idea of Charles

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Manson loose in the world is terrifying. Now. I don't remember all the

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particulars of the Manson trial. I
was a teenager when the murders took place,

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and I remember following the case and
seeing his very scary picture in the

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newspaper. Again, folks, this
is before the thing they call the Internet.

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You saw him on the nightly news
and in the newspaper, and I

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remember reading a number of articles about
Manson. He was a very dark and

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disturbing figure. Even Charles Manson was
considered for parole in multiple occasions. I

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don't think I knew that. That's
very interesting. I hate the idea of

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it, but we have k Kurt
says, I agree with the decision to

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release her on parole. I've read
transcripts of her past parole hearings and it

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was obvious to me that after fifty
three years, she really has taken her

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rehabilitation seriously. Now, Kurt's perspective
is certainly valid. And then Kurt's also

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done some additional homework about what she's
been up to in prison, and he's

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gone back and read some of the
transcripts of her parole hearings. Understood,

359
00:28:30,480 --> 00:28:34,440
and I completely respect his and other
people's perspectives. I just don't see it

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that way. I think she should
have died in prison along with the rest

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of these people. And by the
way, I'm always impressed by the number

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of our listeners who have done a
huge amount of homework on any given case

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and can offer these really thoughtful,
nuanced opinions. That always makes me so

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happy to know that there are people
out there who were like, they're not

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just jumping on TikTok and being like, here's my five minutes worth of information,

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that they've really actually done a lot
of homework. I love that.

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That makes me really excited. I
also respect the fact that I know that

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a number of people who follow true
crime tend to be pretty hardcore supporters of

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law enforcement. But I'm always pleasantly
surprised when people come along with a variety

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of different perspectives, so we're not
all marching in lockstep. I completely understand

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why someone like Kurt would feel that
the way that they do. Fifty three

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years is a tremendous amount of time
to serve in prison for a crime you've

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committed when you were nineteen years old. I'm refreshed by the fact that here's

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a true crime fan. I think
they listen to Mind over Murder and comment,

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and yet they see things very differently
in this example than I do.

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By the way, so far,
we've studiously managed to avoid this turning into

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a debate about the death penalty,
which is a whole another discussion. I'm

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sure there are people that follow Mind
over Murder, and there's a lot of

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people out there there who might have
supported a death penalty and an execution,

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or perhaps Charles Manson and some of
his followers. I don't know. I'm

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not trying to open up that can
of worms, right. It is interesting

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that at the time of the Manson
murderers, how sad that I have to

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use his name, that the death
penalty was an option, and that California

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was putting people to death back then. And I'm actually surprised that in this

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whole discussion no one has once brought
up the death penalty or said that they

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think she should have died in prison. We've got a number of different people

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who have just said she's done her
time. I support her release. There

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00:30:37,440 --> 00:30:41,480
are people who are on the fence. Crystal, for example, says,

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00:30:41,480 --> 00:30:44,799
I'm on the fence. Those were
horrific murders, but she served over fifty

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00:30:44,920 --> 00:30:48,400
years. A number of options here
that sort of run the gamut from I

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00:30:48,480 --> 00:30:51,759
come down on one side or the
other two. I'm on the fence,

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So I'm always happy to be able
to put something up and then I can

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see the comments rolling in as I'm
getting notifications on my phone, and I

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know it's always to be an excellent
debate. Speaking of death penalty, by

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00:31:02,880 --> 00:31:07,240
the way, technically the death penalty
still exists in the state of California.

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Prosecutors can still seek it. They
haven't put anyone to death in the state

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of California in seventeen years. Such
a sentence still exists. It is effectively

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life in prison without parole if they're
not actually executing people. My understanding is

399
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if you're on death row, you
are treated very differently than people in gen

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pop. My understanding is if you're
on death row. You're in your cell

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twenty three hours a day, except
you've got one hour for recreation or whatever.

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So I can see why, even
if you know that someone is never

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going to be put to death,
if you do argue, hey, they

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should be on death row. I
think that does argue. For you only

405
00:31:42,680 --> 00:31:47,559
get one hour of liberty a day, you deserve twenty three hours a day

406
00:31:47,599 --> 00:31:49,319
locked up in a hole. That's
one of the reasons why I would advocate

407
00:31:49,440 --> 00:31:52,200
for keeping the death penalty there.
Even if no one's ever going to be

408
00:31:52,279 --> 00:31:56,400
executed, at least treat them like
they're on death row. It's worth noting

409
00:31:56,440 --> 00:32:01,960
that a handful of states have executed
prisoners. In the year twenty twenty three,

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00:32:02,079 --> 00:32:07,720
Florida, Missouri, Oklahoma, and
Texas all put people to death,

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00:32:07,799 --> 00:32:13,720
and the previous year twenty twenty two, Alabama and Mississippi had also put prisoners

412
00:32:13,720 --> 00:32:19,640
to death. So it looks like
six states are currently actively implementing the death

413
00:32:19,640 --> 00:32:24,839
penalty, with many other states either
having made the death penalty illegal or effectively

414
00:32:24,960 --> 00:32:30,000
dormant, as they have in the
state of California. Yeah, the last

415
00:32:30,000 --> 00:32:34,680
execution in Virginia was in July of
twenty seventeen, and that was carried out

416
00:32:34,720 --> 00:32:37,480
the e lethal injection. Interestingly enough, we always have a discussion with the

417
00:32:37,480 --> 00:32:43,160
death penalty when I teach in Cold
Blood to my APE students, and they're

418
00:32:43,200 --> 00:32:45,680
always surprised to note that. I
think we tend to think of Texas or

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00:32:45,759 --> 00:32:52,440
Florida as being the most prolific states
for executions. It's actually Virginia because we've

420
00:32:52,440 --> 00:32:55,240
had it longer. We've had the
death penalty since sixteen oh eight. Wow,

421
00:32:55,440 --> 00:32:59,680
I mean, yeah, there were
colonists here in sixteen oh seven.

422
00:33:00,079 --> 00:33:02,200
I suppose, not even a year
end. Somebody decided there had to be

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00:33:02,279 --> 00:33:07,680
a reason why we put someone to
death. Virginia actually leads all fifty of

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00:33:07,680 --> 00:33:10,960
the states in terms of rate of
execution using the death penalty. Not a

425
00:33:12,000 --> 00:33:15,599
big fan of the death penalty.
As I said, we're here to talk

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00:33:15,640 --> 00:33:20,839
about Leslie van Houghton, who will
now be living in a halfway house at

427
00:33:20,880 --> 00:33:23,920
least for the foreseeable future. Can
you imagine? As somebody had mentioned it,

428
00:33:24,000 --> 00:33:27,599
and some of the reporting that I
was reading had mentioned the fact that

429
00:33:27,720 --> 00:33:30,759
what a learning curve she's going to
have to learn how to use a debit

430
00:33:30,799 --> 00:33:35,880
card because she hasn't handled money for
years. He's got to learn how to

431
00:33:35,960 --> 00:33:38,240
use debit card. She's got to
learn how to drive. There are all

432
00:33:38,279 --> 00:33:44,880
these things that you miss when you've
been imprisoned for fifty three years. That's

433
00:33:44,920 --> 00:33:46,720
crazy in and of itself. I
think, yeah, I would imagine this

434
00:33:46,799 --> 00:33:51,440
is going to be quite an adjustment
for her. And I don't know whether

435
00:33:51,519 --> 00:33:55,359
she would ever appear in public or
something like that. I and certainly her

436
00:33:55,480 --> 00:34:00,039
face is well known enough the news
reporting has never been shy about showing pictures

437
00:34:00,079 --> 00:34:05,039
of her. Her pictures out there, people would recognize her. I don't

438
00:34:05,039 --> 00:34:07,359
know. I think it's going to
be very interesting to see what comes of

439
00:34:07,440 --> 00:34:10,039
this to recap. I'm not thrilled
about it. I don't think it should

440
00:34:10,079 --> 00:34:15,199
have happened. I think with a
crime as heinous as the one that she

441
00:34:15,239 --> 00:34:19,440
committed with the Manson family, she
needs to stay in jail until the end

442
00:34:19,480 --> 00:34:22,679
of her life. But of course
that's not our decision to make any final

443
00:34:22,719 --> 00:34:25,280
thoughts from you, Bill, No, I think that was very well said.

444
00:34:25,360 --> 00:34:30,840
I think I'm on the same page
there. We do want to thank

445
00:34:30,920 --> 00:34:37,440
everybody for their feedback and lively discussion
on our Facebook page, not only to

446
00:34:37,480 --> 00:34:39,039
that article, but to everything else. That we post. We really do

447
00:34:39,079 --> 00:34:44,760
appreciate it. We hope that you
continue to enthusiastically engage with us on our

448
00:34:44,800 --> 00:34:46,960
Facebook page. That's going to do
it for this episode of mind Over Murder.

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00:34:47,320 --> 00:35:00,880
Thank you so much for listening.
We'll see you next time. Mind

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00:35:00,880 --> 00:35:06,960
Over Murder is a production of Absolute
Zero and Another Dog Productions. Our executive

451
00:35:06,960 --> 00:35:12,280
producers are Bill Thomas and Kristin Dilley. Our logo art is by Pamela Arnois.

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00:35:12,920 --> 00:35:16,360
Our theme music is by Kevin McLeod. Mind Over Murder is distributed in

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00:35:16,440 --> 00:35:22,360
partnership with Coral Space Media. You
can follow us on Facebook, Twitter,

454
00:35:22,599 --> 00:35:25,920
or Instagram. You can also follow
our page on the Colonial Parkway Murders on

455
00:35:25,960 --> 00:35:30,599
Facebook, and finally, you can
follow Bill Thomas on Twitter at Bill Thomas

456
00:35:30,880 --> 00:36:08,719
five six. Thank you for listening
to mind Over Murder. D