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This is London calling, London Calling. I've got a phone call a couple

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of months ago to say we are
closing your accounts. I asked why.

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No reason was given. I was
told a letter would come which would explain

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everything. I complained. I emailed
the chairman. A Lackey phoned me to

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say that it was a commercial decision, which I have to say I don't

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believe it was a single moment.
So I thought, well, there we

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are. I'd have to go and
find a different bank. I've been to

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six Welcome to London calling with me, James, Denny part and my very

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good friend mister Toby Young. I've
been a flat week for me, what

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about you? Very busy week,
lots of parties last week and a but

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a fairly uneventful weekend. I haven't
done anything very exciting, just tried to

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not drink, spend time with my
family, cooks and meals, get decent

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nights, sleep to recoup. Yeah, I bet I bet your partying was.

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I bet they were all parties I'd
absolutely have loathed with with kind of

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your normally freako friends, you would
have you would you would have liked the

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policy Exchange party. James the guest
speaker. The surprise guest speaker at the

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Poloxy Exchange summer Party, David,
I guess Richie Sooner, No, I

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hate policy exchange. It's absolutely it's
I mean, those of us who are

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down the rabbit hole recognize that the
think tanks are one of the main conduits

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of control for the powers that be. I mean, obviously, policy exchange

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is a kind of lesser think tank. I mean, the big ones are

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things like the Council on Foreign Relations
and build a Burg and so on.

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But nevertheless, policy exchange it masquerades
as this concern otive thing. I don't

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think it's ever generated the genuinely conservative
policy in its life. All right,

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exaggerated slightly, but it's but it's
just so much part of the problem.

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Well, I knew we'd part company
on policy exchange, but I did.

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One example of the many conservative policies
they've promoted, come up with the free

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schools policy. I think they claim
credit for. I mean, you know

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it has it's it's a successful policy, so it has many fathers. But

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I think back in the mid to
late two thousands it did promote free schools,

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and the policy was taken up by
Michael Gove, who was one of

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the co founders of Policy Exchange.
So it's the country now awash with with

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free schools, genuinely free schools,
just just free to teach what they like,

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and it's kind of been liberating on
British education that it's no longer a

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kind of marketing system designed to inculcate
um sort of communitarian values in the brainwash

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populace. I mean, these these
schools are really this has made a difference.

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Well, that's sort of two questions
there, Um, there are there

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are I mean the free schools policy
I think has been pretty successful, but

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there aren't that many of them.
So the Conservatives no longer seem to be

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promoting free schools or budgeting for them
with the enthusiasm that they doesn't tell you

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a lot. Doesn't that tell you
a lot? That I mean, this

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is this would be my point.
So you say the Policy Exchange is not

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is not just a kind of um, a deception if you like, That

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would be in my line. It's
it's designed to give the illusion that there

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is conservatism happening, and it comes
up with this idea, which you and

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I might agree was probably a good
thing. But then when it comes down

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to it. It just it's barely
scratches the its because ultimately the Conservatives don't

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give a choss about it. Yeah, well, I think I don't know.

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I think I think the I think
one of the reasons the free school

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policy has kind of stalled. I
think there are probably two big reasons,

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maybe three. Maybe the well maybe
the third reason. We'll get to the

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other two foot in a second is
that there were some public embarrassments, you

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know, some free schools that blew
up and embarrassed the Department for Education and

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various education. They became quite wary
of that policy. I suppose there was

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a sort of political wariness when you
know, when when founders of free schools

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got kind of accused of fraud and
so forth. Didn't happen very often,

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but it was enough to enable the
left to say, this is what happens

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if you deregulate the establishment of schools. But I think more importantly, back

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in twenty ten, when Michael was
the Education Secretary and the policy was being

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promoted and the Coalition was four square
behind it, there was a real need

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for additional school places. But that
need has now dissipated, so there's less

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need for any more new schools there
might be if the Labor Party introduces its

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disastrous policy of imposing VAT on school
fees. It's estimated that something like twenty

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five percent of children currently being educated
in the private sector will lose what we

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will leave and try to go to
state schools because their parents will just no

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longer be able to afford it,
in which case will need more state schools,

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in which goes the free schools policy
could conceivably be revived. I think

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the third reason is that, as
with any successful political policy, it has

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an author, a political author who
gets most of the credit. And the

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author of the free schools policy was
Michael Gove. He then moved on in

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twenty fourteen, and none of his
successors have taken the policy up with enthusiasm

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as him, because they feel like
it's his policy. He gets the credit.

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Doesn't benefit me promote this policy.
Yeah, I wonder about that.

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I wonder whether this this was in
the stage where go was was not evil.

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Well, I wonder what happened between
or maybe it maybe obviously one thing

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is that he was always evil and
he just masked it quite well earlier on

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But twenty ten I quite like the
twenty ten go, and maybe it was

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because my politics were different in those
days. I don't think he's evil,

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it's just a just a m but
but it's weird, isn't it, the

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way he's he's sort of flipped into
the dark, into the really dark side.

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I don't share that view. I
think if you never do terms,

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you know, difference of opinion,
we have a difference of opinion, never

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did any politition. But I don't
think he's become I don't regard those who

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who don't agree with me as evil. No, no, no, that

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that's that wasn't my definition. It
really wasn't my definition. I'm saying it

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seems to be your kind of working
by the genuine definition, like as opposed

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to good, he's serving the forces
of darkness. I think he's trying to

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pursue the good in his own way. It just isn't our way. Well,

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a bit like Satan is. He's
just trying to just, you know,

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secure a nice place in the underworld
and just look after his peeps.

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Anyway, Look, we've so nothing, nothing very exciting set him to you

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in the past. Yes, yes, it has. Actually I was I

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wanted to keep the second because because
I wanted to talk to you about it.

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I've the reason I'm sort of feeling
quite maybe I'm even looking quite rapiant

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moment is I've started experimenting with a
keyto diet, ketogenic diet, and I

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was going to I was going to
go full Carnival because Carnival does appeal,

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and I know Carnival works where basically
you're just eaten. In fact, do

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you know about the Carnival dart?
Uh? Well, I've sort of followed

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some of Jordan Peterson's conversation. He's
not he's not necessarily good advert I wouldn't

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say not necessarily the best advert I
think Sean wats his face, um um

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is the better better advocate for it. But basically, um, you used

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to used to eat steak every day, every day, steak, steak,

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steak, steak, steak. Um. And I was the Americans specified grass

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fed, but actually I've discovered over
here the term is meaningless because it's all

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grass fed. We don't we don't
keep our cattle in in sheds and feed

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them rains. I don't think so
we said all stuff is grass fed.

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Um. Yeah, and you and
you're meant to beat really fatty grass fed

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beef. But even though it works, I'm sure I believe. I believe

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everything they say. Um, can
you imagine what it would be like trying

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to be a carnivore in in a
normal sort of marriage where your wife doesn't

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buy into all these kind of fads. You know what you're gonna say.

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Do you think she's going to say? This is great? I'm really looking

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forward to watching you share our family
meals eating a steak while and not bothering

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to cook any of the delicious recipes
you used to cook when we used to

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share that share that it just doesn't
work, does it. Well, it

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really wouldn't work in my household because
my wife and daughter are both vegetarians.

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That is a perversion that is free. But I think I think I think

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one one one reservation I have about
vegetarianism is just how boring it would be

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never to eat meat again. But
I think I have the I'd have the

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same reservation about a carnival diet.
I think, never eating vegetables again,

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just having steak twice a day for
the rest of my life. It's a

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pretty depressing prospect. Yeah, I
was thinking about this because carnivores and I'm

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not just you can eat other meat. Presum you can eat pork and yeah,

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you can, you can eat chicken. Yeah, but the carnivory carnivores

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get really kind of purist about it. Can you eat fish if you if

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you're on that, yeah, but
you're supposed to be oily fish, right,

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and not not fish that has got
mercury in it. So that rules

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out quite a lot of oiler fish. So tuna is a no. No.

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You can probably eat salmon as long
as it's wild salmon, not farmed

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salmon and stuff like that. This
is the problem. So so yeah,

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you've got this. You think you've
got the range of meats at your disposal,

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and you can eggs count as well, by the way, but actually

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you haven't. And it's quite so. So I don't know. So what

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is the keto? Is the theory
is okay, um that you and I

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at the moment or I'll be in
the transitional stage now between the two.

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Our body is very reliant on the
sugars caused by carbohydrates and sugar indeed,

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so it feeds on that and the
idea of like that, I mean,

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I'm expressing it very simply and probably
ineptly. The idea of the if of

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the keto jet diet is to enter
a state of ketosis, and that is

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when your body transitions from feeling off
the glucose and the ship is produced by

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carbohydrates two um, living off fat. And you go through this phase where

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you feel really really rotten called keto
flu. And and also you get you

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get the squids and all sort,
and you get headaches and you get terrible

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leg cramps and stuff. But this
is all the sign that that you're you're

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apparently getting rid of the toxins in
your body. And this is why I'm

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doing but I'm not doing. It
really annoys me, you know. You

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get you go up, you go
on the internet and look up keto for

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beginners and stuff, and it will
say and this is a really good way

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of losing weight. I'm thinking,
I don't want to lose weight. Stop

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stop trying to impress me with its
weight weight losing potential. I don't want

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to lose weight. Shut up,
shut up, shut up. You know

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I'm not a fat person, but
actually you kind of have to lose weight

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even if you don't want to,
which I don't, because the toxins are

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all contained in the in the wrong
sort of fat in your body, which

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you have to eliminate first before you
then produced this brown fat which is good

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apparently. So it's a fat.
It's a tremendous fat. It sounds like

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a fair And are you losing weight
as a result of being on the diet?

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Well, you know, I'm just
in the sort of earlier stages of

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it. But I'm learning some lessons. For example, you'd think that you

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would be able to stuff yourself with
bacon and eggs and all the all the

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fatty man things that you might like
to gorge yourself on, But actually I'm

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learning too much. Protein is a
bad thing, protein poisoning. It's the

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fat. Fifty percent of your your
total calorie intake has to be fat.

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So oil, oil butter, oil
fat butter or clotted cream. I mean,

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I love clotted cream, I really
do. But I love I love

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cloted cream too. What Americans called
clotted There was an American term for clotted

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cream, isn't there? They don't
call it clotted cream? Yeah, you're

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right. It just the Americans are
just a lawrence themselves. Are these stupid

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invented things they? I mean,
it's not as though the settlers that when

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when the pilgrim Fathers went over to
wherever they landed, surely clotted cream was

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a known thing. Then why did
they have to change the name? Yeah,

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I don't know. We should stop
there for a second, James,

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just to hear from one of our
sponsors, everybody, James Lilacs, you're

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for the Ricochet podcast, the Flagship
Podcast. It's July. That means it's

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hard better to do than sit inside
with the air conditioning going full blast while

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he listened to the heated, sparkly, prickly fireworks like opinions of Peter Robinson,

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rob Long and myself as we talked
to Well, you'll just have to

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tune in and find out, won't
you. That's ricochet dot com where the

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00:14:16,240 --> 00:14:28,919
Flagship Podcast can be found. Don't
miss it every week. So we should

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probably talk about some of the stories
in the news that there's been quite a

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few stories. Did he see that, some of which the Free Speech Union

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has been involved with. There was
a story you may have noticed. So

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a former colonel, a medic in
the Army Reserve he served for fourteen years

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in Afghanistan, felt he had to
resign, was forced to resign by the

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Army Reserve when he on his personal
Facebook account posted a quote from the gender

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critical feminist Helen Joyce saying, and
I'm paraphrasing, if if if women can't

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say in the public square trans women
aren't women, then we've got a problem

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with women's rights in this country.
He didn't embellish it. He just reposted

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this quote from Helen Joyce, who's
by no means a kind of pariah or

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an outline, outline or an extremist. She's a sort of mainstream. Why

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are you explaining that types just just
just take it as red. You don't

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need to defend every every person,
every single point. I mean, like,

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what if she wasn't extremely So what
comes next is he was Someone complained

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and an investigation was opened by the
Army Reserve because he quoted this fairly mainstream

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women needs to be the Britain and
editor of The Economist read a best selling

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book last year and he felt he
had no choice to defend his name and

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defend his honor than to resign.
So he resigned. And now he's gone

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public with the story. And it's
absolutely shocking that a hero, someone who

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risked his life to save others lives
and the service of his country should have

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been treated so shoddily by the army, and I think reflects the extent to

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which the British Army has been captured
by woke warriors. But it's a shocking

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story. And he's a member of
the Free Speech Union, and we're helping

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him and we're talking to him about
what the next steps are and what the

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legal remor his art. But it's
been it's been all consuming kind of dealing

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with this story in the past sort
of a few days, So that's been.

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It's shocking. But you misunderstood the
point of my interjection, and you

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often do this. Why do you
always sort of back into these stories and

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tread on eggshells to in order to
demonstrate that the guy was acting in good

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faith and the person he was quoted
was not in the extremists. It wouldn't

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matter if Helen Joyce was a Nazi
with a kind of enormous swastiker on her

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head. Even even then, if
she said that that trans women were not

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women, she'd be right. I
don't know why you play the enemy's game

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by constantly sort of being being ever
so careful about who you represented. The

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free speech is free speech is free
speech. It doesn't really matter whether people

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were were editors of the Economist or
not, or it just it just gives

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it gives territory to the enemy when
you do that. Well, if he

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if he'd quoted Hitler, yeah,
saying something through, Um, I imagine

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you know, there'd be much less
public sympathy for his case. Well that's

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but that's just silly, isn't it, Because most women would think, well,

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actually, actually, perhaps he should
have been placed under investigation for quoting

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Hitler. I mean that's stupid,
that's really that's exactly where we disagree so

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violently. It's pathetic too. Well, the problem is, James, not

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not everyone is as purist as you
about these things. If you talk for

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the free speech Union terms and you're
and you're some gatekeeping where where you say,

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actually, free speech is only free
if if somebody socially approved says it,

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then I think we're on very shaky
territory. Well that's not my position,

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but we and we might have defended
him even if he'd quoted someone who

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wasn't who was sort of I mean, Helen George isn't exactly socially approved,

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but um, she's got into she
remember she tried to speak some Gonbalan Keys

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earlier this year, and the Master
of Gonbaland Keys said, whilst we don't

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want to in any way stop it
from speaking, we do find her views

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reprehensible and we can understand why members
of our community are so deeply upset,

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and we'll be providing therapy for them
if they get upset. On the day

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she comes to our college, and
there was of course done a very rowdy

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demonstration when she did try and speak, and it was you know, she

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the talk went ahead. But so
she's not she's not kind of you know,

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she's in the same sort of camp
as JK. Rowlings. So no

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one you or I would consider kind
of remotely beyond the pale. But within

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the kind of woke community she is
considered almost almost indistinguishable from you know anyway

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anyway. But I guess my point, James is I just want to stress

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that, you know, even if
you're in a kind of more wishy washy

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camp than us, and you're less
purest about free speech, you should still

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take the side of this former British
Army or Army Reserve colonel, because all

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he did was quote something that you
know, is it's contentious, but it's

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not something that should be should should
rule you as as as beyond the pale

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00:20:12,839 --> 00:20:18,279
in the British army. But I
guess it's what people who do challenge the

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transgender agenda are now regarded as beyond
the pale within institutions that the day before

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yesterday were conservative with a small seat
and the same thing, the same thing

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crops up with the other thing.
I think we're going to talk about I

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00:20:33,279 --> 00:20:37,799
want to talk about, which is
the ded banking phenomenon. So, Nigel

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Farage, Oh, I think I
first met James at your book party about

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fifteen years ago. He announced on
I think it was Thursday evening, possibly

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Friday morning, that he'd been banking
with the same bank since nineteen eighty so

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for forty three years, and had
recently been notified by that they're closing his

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account. They no longer want his
business, and they advised him to open

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another account with another bank so he
could transfer all the money in his account,

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his savings account whatever with them to
this new bank. And he tried

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to open a new bank account with
seven other banks and they all declined to

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take his custom, and so he
went. He's gone public with this story.

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I was on his show on Friday
to talk about it. But in

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his case, I don't think it
was because he said something that upset transactivists.

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But many people we know and we've
helped at the Free Speech Union have

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been debanked because they've they've challenged the
trans rights activists agenda, which is in

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itself quite shocking. But in Nigel's
case it may be because I don't know

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if you followed all of this,
but Chris Bryant, who was a Labor

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MP, said in the House of
Commons, where what he said is protected

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by parliamentary privilege so he can't be
sued for defamation, he said that Nigel

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Forage had been paid over half a
million pounds I think in was it something

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like twenty twenty one by RT formerly
Russia today so and a state broadcaster in

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Russia, so effectively paid over a
half a million pounds by the Russian state.

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He was sort of arguing that Nigel
Farage should be sanctioned when he said

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this, and it was, as
far as we know, completely untrue.

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He was conflating all Nigel Farage's earnings
from his media appearances on every platform,

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including LBC, which employed him as
well as Fox News conflating all those earnings

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with the earnings from a single source. And according to Nigel, he didn't

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earn any money at all from our
tea in that second suppose so what if

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he had earned all his money from
Ussia? Well, I think the well

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then then then well, so this
um an EU regulation made it easy.

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It makes it easier for banks to
de bank people who are regarded as politically

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exposed persons. And the sort of
rash now for that is that politically exposed

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persons are more likely to receive dark
money, more prone to corruption, and

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therefore banks can hold them to a
higher standard and therefore get away with anyways,

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he's a politely exposed person by definition, regardless of whether or not he

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Well, that's true, but he
hasn't. But this, I think this

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00:23:27,839 --> 00:23:33,200
EU rule came in like a while
ago, but he hasn't been d banks

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00:23:33,279 --> 00:23:37,519
until now. So it looks like
it might be connected with this allegation made

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by Chris Bryant. It might be. It might just be because someone at

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his bank disapproves of his view on
Brexit or his opinions on immigration. We

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don't know, And the reason we
don't know is because his bank hasn't given

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00:23:52,319 --> 00:23:56,960
him any kind of adequate explanation.
It's just said we've taken this decision for

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commercial reasons. And one of the
sinister things about this new form of cancel

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culture, something I discovered when I
was de banked by PayPal last year,

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is that you never get a proper
explanation. They never give you the reason,

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00:24:07,160 --> 00:24:10,920
so you really don't know what the
reason is, so you can't really

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00:24:10,960 --> 00:24:14,200
appeal it, you can't contest it, You're left in the dark about it.

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00:24:14,200 --> 00:24:18,079
It's got this kind of horrible Kafka
esque dimension, but it's becoming a

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00:24:18,119 --> 00:24:22,400
more and more widespread phenomenon and it's
something the Free Speech Union has been lobbying

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the government to do something about since
not only did PayPal close my account,

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as you know, it also closed
the account of the Free Speech Union and

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00:24:29,920 --> 00:24:32,720
the Daily Skeptic, and we managed
to get them restored when we kicked up

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an almighty fuss. But lots and
lots of people increasingly are finding themselves de

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00:24:37,359 --> 00:24:42,559
banked, and it's basically what we're
seeing is the kind of emergence of a

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00:24:42,640 --> 00:24:47,559
Chinese style social credit system in the
UK, and not just in the UK,

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but across the world. We saw
it in Canada with the closure of

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00:24:52,839 --> 00:24:56,680
the bank accounts of some of the
people involved in the Freedom Convoy as well,

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00:24:56,480 --> 00:25:02,559
so it's really important that we do
something about It's a grotesque interference in

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00:25:02,599 --> 00:25:07,559
our freedom of expression, often you
know, carried out by California based companies

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00:25:08,519 --> 00:25:12,839
and you know, and it's it's
it's they're out of control. In our

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00:25:12,880 --> 00:25:18,440
case, we believe that PayPal didn't
even observe the existing regulations. Under the

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00:25:18,480 --> 00:25:22,759
existing regulations, you're supposed to give
someone whose account you close, if you're

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00:25:22,839 --> 00:25:27,799
a registered payment services provider in the
UK, as PayPal are, you're supposed

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00:25:27,799 --> 00:25:33,039
to give the the account holder at
least sixty days notice and you are required

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00:25:33,079 --> 00:25:37,680
to give them some kind of explanation. So in our case, we don't

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00:25:37,680 --> 00:25:41,279
think PayPal even observed those minimal requirements
before closing our accounts. Well, they

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00:25:41,319 --> 00:25:45,000
definitely didn't, because we were given
no notice at all. They just told

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00:25:45,039 --> 00:25:48,440
us they were closing our accounts.
And we've we've we put in a complaint

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00:25:48,440 --> 00:25:51,880
to the Financial Conduct Authority, but
we've also been lobbying the government to try

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00:25:51,920 --> 00:25:55,599
and do something about this. We've
submitted reams of evidence to the Treasury that

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00:25:55,640 --> 00:25:59,480
this is an ongoing problem and it's
getting worse, and we hope so Jeremy

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00:25:59,519 --> 00:26:03,440
Hunt the Child announced this morning that
the government is going to do something about

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00:26:03,480 --> 00:26:11,880
this. It intends to protect free
speech rain in banks and payments services providers

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00:26:11,920 --> 00:26:15,039
like paypals, so they at least
can't do this quite as easily as they

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00:26:15,039 --> 00:26:18,640
are at the moment, so we
think that lobbying efforts going to be quite

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00:26:18,720 --> 00:26:22,839
as easily. I don't like all
these concessions too. I've been I've been

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00:26:22,880 --> 00:26:26,559
like sitting here going I'm tearing my
hair out. I mean, I'm always

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00:26:26,559 --> 00:26:27,960
going to be as bad as you
if you kind of like this. Look,

327
00:26:29,240 --> 00:26:33,079
the thing is um implicit in what
you what you what you were saying

328
00:26:33,640 --> 00:26:38,960
was that, for example, had
Nigel Pharage been making all his money from

329
00:26:40,079 --> 00:26:42,119
RT as a result of r T, then it would have been legitimate for

330
00:26:42,160 --> 00:26:45,480
the banks to do it. And
then you sort of referred to these banking

331
00:26:45,519 --> 00:26:51,559
regulations about PEPs, Well why why
why give them that territory? Well,

332
00:26:52,000 --> 00:26:56,799
why why are you are you saying
to me that there are certain circumstances in

333
00:26:56,839 --> 00:27:02,279
which you think it would be acceptable
forgive pable for banks to close the count

334
00:27:02,319 --> 00:27:06,119
of somebody because I can't see it. Well, I suppose if you are

335
00:27:07,200 --> 00:27:11,839
a politically active person, if you've
been involved in politics, if you've led

336
00:27:11,880 --> 00:27:18,440
political parties, and if you're a
British citizen, if if if a bank

337
00:27:18,480 --> 00:27:22,839
discovers that you've received half a million
pounds from a hostile foreign power, I

338
00:27:22,839 --> 00:27:27,440
can see that might be a reason
for closing their account. Why is it

339
00:27:27,519 --> 00:27:36,440
the bank's business, Well, I
suppose because the bank would be concerned about

340
00:27:37,119 --> 00:27:41,599
being sanctioned by the British state for
allowing a foreign power with whom we're engaged

341
00:27:41,680 --> 00:27:48,319
in, um, you know,
a war by proxy to fund a politically

342
00:27:48,359 --> 00:27:51,119
prominent person. I mean in the
Second World War, if if, if,

343
00:27:51,279 --> 00:27:53,759
if Barclays are discovered, would we
at war with Russia? I didn't

344
00:27:53,799 --> 00:27:56,640
know this, well, I thought
you'd I thought you. I thought you

345
00:27:56,680 --> 00:28:00,559
did believe that you were at war
by all right, I'd be very I'd

346
00:28:00,559 --> 00:28:03,160
be very surprised if you thought if
you're going to tell me that we are

347
00:28:03,279 --> 00:28:07,000
in a state of war with Russia, I think we are not, and

348
00:28:07,359 --> 00:28:11,640
we shouldn't be. Well, that's
why I use the phrase by proxy,

349
00:28:12,359 --> 00:28:18,200
right, But but it sounds like
by proxy in terms of banking seems to

350
00:28:18,240 --> 00:28:22,880
carry their weight by proxy is to
be exactly the same as at war with

351
00:28:22,279 --> 00:28:29,119
that's what you're saying. Well,
the sanctions regime, we are still sanctioning

352
00:28:29,519 --> 00:28:33,680
parts part of our as part of
our diplomatic effort and to avoid getting into

353
00:28:33,960 --> 00:28:38,000
a fully fledged war with Russia.
We have imposed sanctions on Russia because of

354
00:28:38,039 --> 00:28:47,680
its invasion of Ukraine. Um and
with Russia right, well, okay,

355
00:28:48,279 --> 00:28:52,839
well okay, and what about what
about people like Tommy Robinson and Katie Katie

356
00:28:52,839 --> 00:28:56,279
Hopkins, who of course would d
banked? Have you? Have you represented

357
00:28:56,279 --> 00:29:02,839
either of them? No? And
should you have done? Well? They

358
00:29:02,839 --> 00:29:07,200
haven't appealed to us for help over
any d banking issue, and we're not

359
00:29:07,240 --> 00:29:15,440
representing Niger Faraj. The reason we
lobbied the government about trying to tighten up

360
00:29:15,440 --> 00:29:19,480
the regulations is because I was de
banked and the two companies I run a

361
00:29:19,519 --> 00:29:22,559
dbank. By the way, James, have you ever been d banked?

362
00:29:23,240 --> 00:29:27,599
I worry about it all the time. I got chucked out the City Bank,

363
00:29:29,839 --> 00:29:33,880
did you Yeah? For no reason
that they just suddenly sent me a

364
00:29:34,000 --> 00:29:38,680
message. And you know, I'd
be in a model customer in that I'd

365
00:29:38,720 --> 00:29:42,519
always had a reason, might of
money in my account, never done anything

366
00:29:42,559 --> 00:29:51,240
weird? Yeah, a city bank
dbank me right, okay on Kennye Hopkins.

367
00:29:51,359 --> 00:29:57,079
We we are trying to help her
in another area of her life.

368
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But as she has ask for help
about being de bank, I didn't know

369
00:30:00,680 --> 00:30:03,960
assually have BINDI bank, you know, years ago. Same with the same

370
00:30:03,960 --> 00:30:07,240
with Tommy Robinson. I was just
wondering whether whether you felt there were categories

371
00:30:07,240 --> 00:30:11,519
of people who it was legitimate to
d bank. Well, I mean,

372
00:30:11,559 --> 00:30:18,480
I think in in Tommy Robinson's case, Um, the rationale I suppose might

373
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be that he's got a criminal conviction
for fraud, as I understand it.

374
00:30:22,240 --> 00:30:27,559
But what well you can you can
phrase it like that. But but you

375
00:30:27,680 --> 00:30:32,359
say you're saying, okay, so
even I mean, let's mean if some

376
00:30:32,480 --> 00:30:37,440
if someone has convicted frauds, wouldn't
that be legitimate reason not to not to

377
00:30:37,839 --> 00:30:41,960
give them a bank account. I
mean, you can understand why bank would

378
00:30:41,960 --> 00:30:48,160
be concerned about giving A bit a
bit sneaky there terms, I think you're

379
00:30:48,160 --> 00:30:51,920
being a bit welsh. I mean, I'm familiar with it. With the

380
00:30:51,960 --> 00:30:56,920
story about God. I've interviewed him
a few times, and I know that

381
00:30:56,000 --> 00:31:00,720
the story behind it. It was
it was a he didn't fill a mortgage

382
00:31:00,720 --> 00:31:06,000
application forming correctly or something like that. We're we're not talking the sort of

383
00:31:06,079 --> 00:31:11,799
fraud where you end up going to
the costa del crime and being extradited.

384
00:31:11,799 --> 00:31:14,319
We're not talking about that. So, I mean, I agree, maybe

385
00:31:14,319 --> 00:31:18,880
they maybe the system invented this excuse
whereby they could describe him as a fraudster,

386
00:31:18,240 --> 00:31:22,079
but I don't think that's really the
reason to you that he was not

387
00:31:22,160 --> 00:31:26,920
given a bank account. And anyway, even even that said, do you

388
00:31:26,000 --> 00:31:32,799
think that the convicted fraudsters who have
paid their price, done their time should

389
00:31:32,799 --> 00:31:37,599
be debanked? Is that your position? No, it's not my position.

390
00:31:37,640 --> 00:31:41,160
I think I think the I think
I think that there ought to be some

391
00:31:41,200 --> 00:31:45,759
banks willing to take their custom and
I think I think I think. I

392
00:31:45,759 --> 00:31:48,680
don't think Tommy Robinson is without a
bank account. He I think he has

393
00:31:48,680 --> 00:31:53,039
been. I think he's outside the
system altogether. I'm pretty sure. I'm

394
00:31:53,039 --> 00:31:56,359
pretty sure he has been. I
don't think he's got any banks in the

395
00:31:56,440 --> 00:32:02,160
UK. I thought he I thought
he does still have. Say I said,

396
00:32:02,400 --> 00:32:06,559
well, I mean, what what
could I say that would make me

397
00:32:06,799 --> 00:32:09,079
deserve to be can't we agree,
can't we just agree instead? If you

398
00:32:09,200 --> 00:32:14,799
trying to get crossed. It's quite
important, I think to establish what you

399
00:32:14,799 --> 00:32:17,279
think the parameters are of free speech. I mean, yeah, you're the

400
00:32:17,279 --> 00:32:23,000
expert on free speech. For goodness, say you've got a union, So

401
00:32:23,400 --> 00:32:27,279
what are your parameters? I mean, what what can I say where you

402
00:32:27,279 --> 00:32:31,839
wouldn't represent me out of interest?
Well, we have that. We have

403
00:32:31,920 --> 00:32:37,240
kind of two rules at the Free
Speech Union, so um, we won't

404
00:32:37,920 --> 00:32:44,960
in ordinary circumstances come to the defense
of people who've said something out with the

405
00:32:45,039 --> 00:32:52,039
law. That doesn't mean to say
that we endorse all the current legal restrictions

406
00:32:52,079 --> 00:32:57,160
on free speech, but we think
the sensible way to get those restrictions changed

407
00:32:57,720 --> 00:33:02,720
is to lobby and care pain.
And we don't want to encourage people to

408
00:33:02,759 --> 00:33:07,119
break the law by saying we will
help you if you get into trouble for

409
00:33:07,160 --> 00:33:09,920
saying something unlawful, because then that
might encourage people to say unlawful things and

410
00:33:09,920 --> 00:33:15,640
they end up in prison when it's
unlawful. Because when I don't know what

411
00:33:15,799 --> 00:33:19,720
the law currently prohibits speech was,
I thought the country which where you can

412
00:33:19,720 --> 00:33:23,599
say what you don't I suppose the
kind of big areas are if you say

413
00:33:23,720 --> 00:33:36,839
something which is m likely to stir
up hatred against people for religious, racial

414
00:33:37,279 --> 00:33:40,319
or reasons of their sexual orientation,
then that's that's unlawful. But I think

415
00:33:40,319 --> 00:33:45,640
the threshold for prosecutions quite high.
There are very few prosecutions that's under the

416
00:33:45,680 --> 00:33:49,000
Public Order Act. This is only
in England and Wales. It's different.

417
00:33:49,000 --> 00:33:52,759
I mean, I mean it's like
Bernard Manning set Old Bernard Manning set would

418
00:33:52,799 --> 00:34:02,519
probably render him ineligible for free speech
union defense. Well does he? Would

419
00:34:02,519 --> 00:34:07,720
you say that? What would could
you describe jokes as stirring up patriots?

420
00:34:07,759 --> 00:34:13,159
Said? I mean, lawyers probably
could imagine It's possible, definitely, but

421
00:34:13,719 --> 00:34:16,639
um that that and then that,
then that then some some some things are

422
00:34:16,679 --> 00:34:21,320
a breach of Section one to seven
of the Communications Act, and some things

423
00:34:21,320 --> 00:34:24,239
are a breach of the Malicious Communications
Act. So we are in fact there's

424
00:34:24,280 --> 00:34:30,760
a guy, there's a Scotsman James, who, when Captain Tom died said

425
00:34:30,800 --> 00:34:37,599
on Twitter the only good British soldier
is a dead British soldier And it was

426
00:34:37,639 --> 00:34:40,320
pointed out to him by his friends
that this was a distasteful thing to say.

427
00:34:40,360 --> 00:34:45,159
Immediately after this Chap had died and
he deleted it within fifteen minutes,

428
00:34:45,679 --> 00:34:54,599
but Police Scotland decided to prosecute him
and he was convicted. I don't think

429
00:34:54,639 --> 00:34:58,199
he was jailed, was given a
community service order, but we're helping him

430
00:34:58,239 --> 00:35:00,679
appeal that conviction and we think it's
going to end up in the European Court

431
00:35:00,719 --> 00:35:06,320
of Human Rights. And we think
that he was convicted under section one two

432
00:35:06,360 --> 00:35:09,239
seven of the Communications Act, which
is if you can be convicted of a

433
00:35:09,280 --> 00:35:15,559
crime if you say something that's quote
unquote grossly offensive, and we don't we

434
00:35:15,119 --> 00:35:19,760
think that that may be a breach
of Article ten of the European Conventional Human

435
00:35:19,840 --> 00:35:22,920
Rights. We want to challenge it
in Strasbourg. So in some cases where

436
00:35:22,920 --> 00:35:27,159
someone is convicted, I'll give you
another example. So there was a case

437
00:35:27,320 --> 00:35:31,960
earlier this year of a Christian street
preacher called David McConnell, and he'd been

438
00:35:31,960 --> 00:35:40,519
convicted when in Leeds City Center he
was preaching and a transwoman tried to heckle

439
00:35:40,599 --> 00:35:47,199
him, essentially started barracking him,
and he repeatedly quote unquote misgendered this transwoman.

440
00:35:47,480 --> 00:35:52,760
A police officer was summoned. Yeah, a police officer was summoned.

441
00:35:52,760 --> 00:35:59,320
The police officer asked him to stop
quote unquote misgendering the transwoman, and he

442
00:35:59,360 --> 00:36:04,039
repeated he did so. So the
police officer arrested him for a public order

443
00:36:04,320 --> 00:36:07,679
offense, which was I think doing
something likely to cause harassment, alarm or

444
00:36:07,679 --> 00:36:15,239
distress. And incredibly he was convicted
by a magistrates court, but the Christian

445
00:36:15,320 --> 00:36:23,320
Legal Center appealed that in Leads County
Court. I think it was and I

446
00:36:23,400 --> 00:36:27,760
was. I'd agreed to be an
expert witness in that case in my capacity

447
00:36:27,800 --> 00:36:30,000
at General Secret of the Free Speech
Union, and in the end I wasn't

448
00:36:30,039 --> 00:36:36,599
called, and the judge upheld the
appeal, so he was released without charge

449
00:36:36,599 --> 00:36:39,599
and his conviction was overturned. So
there are some instances in which the Free

450
00:36:39,599 --> 00:36:45,039
Speech Union will come to the defensive
people. But I would you draw Tommy

451
00:36:45,119 --> 00:36:50,079
Robinson wouldn't well if he was convicted
of contempt of court, he wouldn't help

452
00:36:50,119 --> 00:36:52,360
him. Feed was, you know, accused of being in contempt of court?

453
00:36:52,960 --> 00:36:57,400
If it was just a canjury of
court, what what if the whole

454
00:36:57,400 --> 00:36:59,840
thing was just writ against him and
you and you saw it, the whole

455
00:36:59,840 --> 00:37:02,039
thing stank. Well. I think
that the problem is change. It's sort

456
00:37:02,039 --> 00:37:05,400
of it's a moral hazard. Isn't
it if you if you, if you

457
00:37:05,440 --> 00:37:08,159
say in all circumstances, will defend
people whatever they say, even if they're

458
00:37:08,199 --> 00:37:13,480
in contempt of court. Yeah,
then you're effectively you're effectively encouraging people to

459
00:37:13,519 --> 00:37:15,159
break the law. And if they
then end up in prison, they could

460
00:37:15,199 --> 00:37:21,239
sue you for for you know,
for for falsely giving them the impression that

461
00:37:21,639 --> 00:37:23,760
you had their back and would be
able to defend them. And I'd like

462
00:37:23,840 --> 00:37:30,239
to run lawyer if that. If
that's your reason, that you can't well

463
00:37:30,239 --> 00:37:32,719
offend. But it's also we don't
want to encourage people. We we in

464
00:37:32,760 --> 00:37:36,679
some cases, of course, we
do want to encourage people to help us

465
00:37:37,000 --> 00:37:40,440
lobby the government to change the law, certainly to stop the law getting any

466
00:37:40,440 --> 00:37:45,840
worse, as in the case of
the Online Safety Bill other bills. A

467
00:37:45,920 --> 00:37:50,320
ban on conversion therapy hasn't been published
yet, but we think it's imminent.

468
00:37:50,960 --> 00:37:55,440
But that doesn't mean that doesn't mean
I think that you know, it would

469
00:37:55,440 --> 00:38:01,679
be sensible to to to say will
defend lawbreakers in all circumstances, because I

470
00:38:01,679 --> 00:38:07,559
think it would then encourage people to
break define sensible. I mean, obviously

471
00:38:07,760 --> 00:38:10,320
I don't you've got you've got this
job and I haven't, and it's I'm

472
00:38:10,320 --> 00:38:14,159
sure it's a tough job, but
it seems to me like you're you're conceding

473
00:38:14,159 --> 00:38:16,960
the territory. You're you're conceding the
argument. You're basically saying there are some

474
00:38:17,000 --> 00:38:21,280
forms of free speech which shouldn't.
Yeah, and I think there are.

475
00:38:21,440 --> 00:38:25,000
I think, but well, there
are the problem with being The problem with

476
00:38:25,039 --> 00:38:30,880
describing yourself as a free speech absolutist
and saying you will defend people who get

477
00:38:30,920 --> 00:38:37,239
into trouble however they exercise their free
speech is that would mean defending people who

478
00:38:37,880 --> 00:38:44,360
betray state secrets, even though the
act of doing so endangers agents in the

479
00:38:44,400 --> 00:38:47,239
field. It would mean you'd have
to defend child pornography. It would mean,

480
00:38:47,400 --> 00:38:54,000
you know, um, defending clearly
incitements to imminent violence. Even the

481
00:38:54,119 --> 00:39:00,360
Supreme Court, I don't think,
defends people who incite others to imminent violence.

482
00:39:00,400 --> 00:39:05,199
So well, So okay, So
so the point is, the point

483
00:39:05,280 --> 00:39:08,119
is you can never be an absolutist
about this. They are always going to

484
00:39:08,159 --> 00:39:12,639
say you circumstance as well. I
mean, you wouldn't defend child porn would

485
00:39:12,639 --> 00:39:15,559
you. Well, no, I
wouldn't offend child pornography. But if but

486
00:39:15,599 --> 00:39:21,480
if if a child pornographer said,
I think I think child pornographer is a

487
00:39:21,559 --> 00:39:24,920
great I mean, I don't think
it would be a threat, but that

488
00:39:24,920 --> 00:39:28,760
that's not what but that that's no, that's the softcast. The hard case.

489
00:39:28,800 --> 00:39:32,480
If you're a free speech absolutist is, m would you defend someone's,

490
00:39:32,639 --> 00:39:38,280
you know, consumption of child porn
or even with the consent of the speech

491
00:39:38,320 --> 00:39:43,239
element in this is he's committed a
well, it's it's a crime. I

492
00:39:43,280 --> 00:39:45,000
suppose it's you know that they're they're
there. It's a sort of it's a

493
00:39:45,280 --> 00:39:50,480
I guess it's a form of freedom
of expression or something. No, I

494
00:39:50,000 --> 00:39:52,559
don't I'm not sure that that.
I think you're stretching it there. I

495
00:39:52,599 --> 00:39:59,599
mean, and even you know your
your your What about betraying states states?

496
00:40:00,320 --> 00:40:04,159
Yeah, I don't think there should
be any state secrets. I think I

497
00:40:04,199 --> 00:40:09,320
think problem there are there are some
circumstances in which a state has to act

498
00:40:09,320 --> 00:40:12,760
in secret, you know, I
mean, yeah, in war, the

499
00:40:12,760 --> 00:40:17,639
truth is so important there has to
be kept by bodyguard. Even George who

500
00:40:17,719 --> 00:40:22,559
was a George or was a pretty
a pretty staunch defender of free speech.

501
00:40:22,599 --> 00:40:24,920
But when he worked for the BBC, in during the Second World War,

502
00:40:25,360 --> 00:40:31,119
he acknowledged that there were some some
secrets that ought to be kept, and

503
00:40:31,159 --> 00:40:37,880
in some circumstances some propaganda during wartime
was acceptable. Yeah, maybe maybe he

504
00:40:38,000 --> 00:40:40,960
got that one just about it,
or maybe he was maybe he was he

505
00:40:42,000 --> 00:40:44,599
was working for the intelligence services.
You know, you don't know. I

506
00:40:45,159 --> 00:40:47,639
don't. I think he's had a
lot of really good things. But I

507
00:40:47,679 --> 00:40:52,280
wouldn't. I wouldn't use him as
the touchstone for everything. No, I

508
00:40:52,519 --> 00:40:54,280
don't believe in secrecy. I really
don't. I think it's I think it's

509
00:40:54,320 --> 00:40:58,880
part of the in fact, it's
almost the whole problem. Well, I

510
00:40:58,880 --> 00:41:02,440
think that's running the world as a
result of secrecy, I think. I

511
00:41:02,480 --> 00:41:08,559
think. I'm not I'm not saying
that in every case we have an obligation

512
00:41:08,639 --> 00:41:14,000
a duty not to portray state secrets. I think, of course there are

513
00:41:14,039 --> 00:41:17,719
some state state secrets we have a
duty to reveal if we come across them,

514
00:41:17,960 --> 00:41:22,719
and in some cases, you know, employees of the Ministry of Defense

515
00:41:23,880 --> 00:41:30,920
might have a moral duty to break
the Official Secret Tact. But I don't

516
00:41:30,960 --> 00:41:35,599
think that there are no circumstances in
which the Official Secrets Act should be upheld,

517
00:41:36,039 --> 00:41:38,000
or that state secrets should be kept. I can think of plenty of

518
00:41:38,039 --> 00:41:43,400
circumstances which it would be very difficult
for you know, given that we are

519
00:41:43,519 --> 00:41:47,039
in an imperfect world, surrounded by
hostile powers, some of them you know,

520
00:41:47,400 --> 00:41:52,360
determined to destroy us in our way
of life. It does, it

521
00:41:52,400 --> 00:41:54,320
does, it's it's not it's reasonable, I think to want to keep something

522
00:41:54,440 --> 00:41:59,280
secret from them, basically how we
go about defending ourselves from them. I

523
00:41:59,320 --> 00:42:02,599
think if if there were no secrets
like that, if if all the secrecy

524
00:42:02,679 --> 00:42:06,519
was removed, I think what we
discover is the opposite of what you claim,

525
00:42:06,760 --> 00:42:09,719
that the world is not swimming with
hostile powers bent on destroying Britain,

526
00:42:10,079 --> 00:42:15,079
that actually Britain is probably instigating most
of the crap that you deplore. So

527
00:42:15,320 --> 00:42:19,480
and the same with the US.
That's the problem. That's why they keep

528
00:42:19,480 --> 00:42:24,079
this stuff from us, because we'd
be pulled about just how how utterly immoral

529
00:42:24,679 --> 00:42:29,840
the actions of the secret actions of
our countries are and the people. It's

530
00:42:29,880 --> 00:42:31,159
one thing. It's one thing to
make, but it's one thing to make

531
00:42:31,199 --> 00:42:37,239
that claim and then to make a
slightly different claim, which is you cannot

532
00:42:37,360 --> 00:42:43,559
envisage any circumstances in which states should
be able to keep things secret from their

533
00:42:43,639 --> 00:42:47,360
enemies, cannot well if it seemed
surprising to be well, of course it

534
00:42:47,360 --> 00:42:51,239
does, because you're stuck in the
old paradigm tabes, You're you're stuck in

535
00:42:51,280 --> 00:42:55,079
the paradigm where you trust authority.
You think that these about what about?

536
00:42:55,079 --> 00:43:04,000
What about? What about if some
people in the Chinese military or the Chinese

537
00:43:04,000 --> 00:43:09,000
equivalent of the Foreign Office are actually
British agents who are passing on Chinese state

538
00:43:09,079 --> 00:43:15,599
secrets to Britain. Do you think
it would be perfectly acceptable to betray their

539
00:43:15,639 --> 00:43:19,440
identity to the Chinese authorities that when
you when you sign China there, you're

540
00:43:19,480 --> 00:43:23,280
sort of setting it up as this
pantomime baddy, a bit like Putler and

541
00:43:23,360 --> 00:43:28,519
Russia are set up as pantomime baddies. I see the whole China as the

542
00:43:28,639 --> 00:43:31,360
enemy. What about Taiwan and Russia? They're going to invade the rest of

543
00:43:31,360 --> 00:43:35,880
the world if we don't stop them
now in Ukraine. I see these as

544
00:43:35,960 --> 00:43:40,960
part of the Western the Western deep
state sit up. And I'm not I'm

545
00:43:42,000 --> 00:43:46,440
not saying that both those countries aren't
engaged in all manner of nefarious activities.

546
00:43:46,960 --> 00:43:50,360
What I am saying, as a
plague on all all our houses. I

547
00:43:50,360 --> 00:43:53,320
mean, you know, both theirs
and ours, they're just you're so,

548
00:43:53,400 --> 00:43:58,199
you're, you're, you're, you're, you're so. That attitude, as

549
00:43:58,199 --> 00:44:04,639
far as you're concerned, would justify
you if you worked for an intelligent a

550
00:44:04,639 --> 00:44:09,320
British intelligence service handing over the name
of our agents to the Chinese authorities,

551
00:44:09,320 --> 00:44:14,800
our Chinese agents of the child,
I feel very sorry for anyone who works

552
00:44:14,840 --> 00:44:17,519
for any intelligence services, and I'd
feel I'd feel really sorry for people who

553
00:44:17,679 --> 00:44:24,679
got exposed. I am saying absolutely, I think the world would be if

554
00:44:24,719 --> 00:44:30,599
we removed all state secrecy, every
single level of it. We'd all live

555
00:44:30,639 --> 00:44:36,400
happily ever after after the blood show
that would ever to be followed, when

556
00:44:36,440 --> 00:44:42,400
people realize how much they've been called
it might then fall into the category of

557
00:44:42,480 --> 00:44:49,199
an incitement to imminent violence, which, even as a fairly staunch defender of

558
00:44:49,199 --> 00:44:52,599
for his speech, I wouldn't defend
anyway. Let's hear from our sponsor this

559
00:44:52,639 --> 00:44:55,119
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560
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562
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563
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569
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570
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571
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four five three double zero. They'll

572
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be happy to help. So are
we do? Is a culture cornew?

573
00:45:55,719 --> 00:46:00,199
Well? How long have we been
chatting? I mean, you didn't to

574
00:46:00,239 --> 00:46:07,000
discuss the Supreme Court judgments, which
I thought were for the most part pretty

575
00:46:07,079 --> 00:46:10,679
good and and a reason to celebrate
a bit of good news in the previous

576
00:46:10,719 --> 00:46:15,280
weeks so or previous ten days whatever
it is. So the was its students

577
00:46:15,320 --> 00:46:24,199
for fair at mission versus presidents and
fellows of Harvard College and Creative versus Elenis

578
00:46:25,000 --> 00:46:31,360
UM. In the latter decision reaffirmed
the court's commitment to the First Amendment,

579
00:46:31,440 --> 00:46:39,320
which I thought was great. Um. And the former decision effectively ended affirmative

580
00:46:39,360 --> 00:46:45,000
action policies. Which which which which
is? You know, which is pretty

581
00:46:45,000 --> 00:46:47,679
good too. UM. But I
suppose perhaps we're not going to argue about

582
00:46:47,679 --> 00:46:52,719
those jams, so we will just
will just just decide to mutually celebrate those

583
00:46:52,800 --> 00:46:58,079
victories and move on. Yeah,
okay, um, culture corner, what

584
00:46:58,559 --> 00:47:04,719
I have. I did see episodes
one and two of Hijack, which I'm

585
00:47:04,760 --> 00:47:07,800
glad you did. I'm glad you
did. Yeah, what do you think?

586
00:47:07,239 --> 00:47:10,519
I really quite liked it. I
mean, it's a little bit cheesy.

587
00:47:12,239 --> 00:47:17,960
M the script is a bit clunky
in places, and initially I thought

588
00:47:19,760 --> 00:47:23,840
this is pretty woke, and uh, you know, it'll be easy to

589
00:47:23,840 --> 00:47:30,960
spot the hijackers because they're going to
be middle aged white men, probably with

590
00:47:30,039 --> 00:47:34,639
British accents. And for the most
part they were, but not exclusively.

591
00:47:34,679 --> 00:47:40,360
There was a kind of attractive young
woman and a Muslim amongst the hijackers.

592
00:47:43,159 --> 00:47:47,280
But but I thought it was I
think, I mean, I quite like

593
00:47:47,360 --> 00:47:53,679
Idris Elbert, I quite like the
fact that I mean spoiler alert, he

594
00:47:53,880 --> 00:47:59,719
initially seems to be taking the side
of the hijackers and betraying the passengers,

595
00:47:59,760 --> 00:48:05,199
but clearly, you know, not
not taking him by that. He's clearly

596
00:48:05,840 --> 00:48:13,159
a devilishly intelligent Macchiavellian man and is
ultimately going to prevail over the hijackers and

597
00:48:13,360 --> 00:48:15,519
save all the passengers. But for
the most part, but for the time

598
00:48:15,559 --> 00:48:19,280
being, they all hate him and
see him as one of the enemy.

599
00:48:20,079 --> 00:48:23,119
But now I thought it was reasonably
well done, it's reasonably exciting. I'm

600
00:48:23,159 --> 00:48:28,519
sort of intrigued as to what the
hijackers agenda is, and they've sort of

601
00:48:28,719 --> 00:48:30,400
they seem to be going to great
lengths to keep the fact that the plane

602
00:48:30,440 --> 00:48:35,920
has been hijacked from the authorities,
but at some point, yeah, if

603
00:48:37,199 --> 00:48:38,519
that's going to have to be disclosed, And they also seem to want to

604
00:48:38,599 --> 00:48:44,119
kind of keep the plane on course. It's going from Dubai to London heath

605
00:48:44,119 --> 00:48:45,119
Throw, and they don't seem to
want it to deviate from that path.

606
00:48:45,159 --> 00:48:47,639
And you're like, well, if
a plane that sho's been hijack lands at

607
00:48:47,679 --> 00:48:51,320
Heathrow, what are the hijacker is
going to do? Anyway? So there,

608
00:48:51,400 --> 00:48:53,280
they've got some fiendishly clever agenda,
but we don't know what it is

609
00:48:53,400 --> 00:48:57,400
yet, but it's I mean,
I'm sufficiently intrigued to carry on watching.

610
00:48:57,400 --> 00:49:01,559
I think, what about you?
So um as you know, Idris Elba

611
00:49:02,719 --> 00:49:07,000
is very myth that he hasn't been
asked to play James Bond, despite some

612
00:49:07,039 --> 00:49:09,360
suggestions that he would. Yeah,
I thought he'd sort of turned it down.

613
00:49:09,400 --> 00:49:13,880
Maybe, well, he keeps changing
his story, doesn't He said he

614
00:49:13,880 --> 00:49:16,760
said there was a sort of a
torrent or a barrage or something of racism

615
00:49:16,760 --> 00:49:20,920
when he was when he was mooted, and this was disgraceful and blah blah

616
00:49:20,960 --> 00:49:25,639
blah. And I was thinking,
actually, Idris Elba would be the perfect

617
00:49:25,960 --> 00:49:32,719
next James Bond in terms of New
James Bond, in that, like Daniel

618
00:49:32,760 --> 00:49:40,719
Craig, like the franchise, he's
portentous, humulous, po faced, dreary,

619
00:49:42,559 --> 00:49:49,199
just just I mean, so depressing, no fun whatsoever. And I

620
00:49:49,239 --> 00:49:54,199
thought that hijack really was was was
kind of typecasting him in that role that

621
00:49:55,079 --> 00:49:59,719
he is so uber capable. I
mean, do you remember the scene where

622
00:50:00,360 --> 00:50:07,000
he's walking towards the aircraft to Tom
what's it called Final boarding, and unlike

623
00:50:07,079 --> 00:50:12,679
most of us, when final boarding
approaches and we realise its last call,

624
00:50:12,719 --> 00:50:15,880
we panicked, don't we We've we've
probably nipped into the shop to get an

625
00:50:15,880 --> 00:50:19,559
extra bottle of water or something,
and we're being shouted up by the wife

626
00:50:19,920 --> 00:50:24,079
and we're panicking and we're running.
But Idris Elba he's just like, yeah,

627
00:50:24,119 --> 00:50:28,719
I'm Idris Elba, and I'm just
going to walk at my own pace

628
00:50:28,840 --> 00:50:34,360
to check it. And he gets
He gets there exactly the millisecond before the

629
00:50:34,440 --> 00:50:37,519
departure gate is going to close.
That's how cool he is, and that's

630
00:50:37,519 --> 00:50:40,920
how how perfect his judgment is.
And you're thinking, I don't I hate

631
00:50:40,920 --> 00:50:45,840
this guy already. He's just a
smug He's a smug toss up and he's

632
00:50:45,880 --> 00:50:52,400
so uber capable. If I were
edrissel was an agent, I was saying,

633
00:50:52,440 --> 00:50:54,400
mate, you really don't want to
be this person. You're just a

634
00:50:54,480 --> 00:50:59,360
climb of cardboard cut out. You
don't want to be like Daniel Craig in

635
00:50:59,400 --> 00:51:01,719
Bond Now. You want to be
like Daniel Craig when he was in Our

636
00:51:01,800 --> 00:51:05,679
Friends in the North, when he
could act. You don't want to limit

637
00:51:05,719 --> 00:51:10,480
yourself in this way. I find
that the it's like, what's a notch

638
00:51:12,880 --> 00:51:15,679
up above McDonald's. What what would
give me a food chain where it's like,

639
00:51:15,880 --> 00:51:22,440
really GBK um Great Burger Kitchen,
Burger Kitchen. I don't know.

640
00:51:22,960 --> 00:51:28,519
It's not even that level. I'd
say it's just like below GBK Burger King.

641
00:51:28,519 --> 00:51:31,480
I suppose there's a notch above McDonald's, isn't it. Yeah, okay,

642
00:51:31,599 --> 00:51:36,880
maybe it is Roger Burger Kitchen,
but it's it's not it's not refined.

643
00:51:37,000 --> 00:51:39,320
I definitely put it in the gorm. I mean, I hear your

644
00:51:39,360 --> 00:51:45,679
reservations about Interest being being a slightly
kind of one dimensional, kind of heroic

645
00:51:45,760 --> 00:51:51,639
character, but um, I do
find him quite cool and quite authoritative.

646
00:51:51,760 --> 00:51:53,920
Not no, it doesn't have the
same natural authority as Denzel Washington. But

647
00:51:54,079 --> 00:51:57,639
it's not a million to share a
prison cell with him. You're saying,

648
00:51:59,360 --> 00:52:02,079
your daddy, I think my wife
wouldn't mind Joe a prison result with either

649
00:52:02,119 --> 00:52:08,679
of them. But I think,
but I mean to defend the program makers,

650
00:52:08,719 --> 00:52:14,079
James, yes, he is portrayed
has been kind of effortlessly cool and

651
00:52:14,159 --> 00:52:20,039
having impeccable time in Great Judgment in
the lead up to the hijacking. But

652
00:52:20,119 --> 00:52:22,960
at the same time that that creates
a kind of that that creates a kind

653
00:52:22,960 --> 00:52:28,079
of delicious kind of anticipation. You
think they've hijacked the plane with the wrong

654
00:52:28,119 --> 00:52:31,559
man on it, because this guy
isn't like an ordinary mortal, he is

655
00:52:31,639 --> 00:52:36,440
like super cool. He's virtually James
Brown. He is going to take the

656
00:52:36,480 --> 00:52:38,639
plane back from you, whether you
want, whether you agree with that,

657
00:52:39,320 --> 00:52:43,360
he's got it. He's got a
very particular set of skills to coin a

658
00:52:43,400 --> 00:52:49,119
phrase. And that's fine, and
I understand the genre. But I get

659
00:52:49,159 --> 00:52:52,039
that, I get what purpose he
is serving. But I was I was

660
00:52:52,159 --> 00:52:59,639
using him as a kind of My
criticism of him extends to the whole thing

661
00:52:59,760 --> 00:53:06,559
that it is kind of mechanical,
laborious, nasty. It's got I mean,

662
00:53:07,519 --> 00:53:12,800
without giving away too many spoilers,
that the execution of that man,

663
00:53:13,000 --> 00:53:19,920
that nice man in the second episode, it was just unnecessary. The hijackers

664
00:53:19,960 --> 00:53:25,920
are unnecessary, unnecessarily thuggish. That
it's just clunky. It's not the reason

665
00:53:27,000 --> 00:53:29,159
I say this. I don't know
whether whether you've you've watched this, I

666
00:53:29,480 --> 00:53:31,639
so recommend it. If you haven't. Did you ever watch White Lotus?

667
00:53:32,480 --> 00:53:37,719
Oh? Yeah, and White Lotus
too? Yeah? Okay, so I've

668
00:53:37,719 --> 00:53:42,760
just been watching Whiteloatus too. And
if you've been watching Whiteloatus too, and

669
00:53:42,800 --> 00:53:50,199
you've seen Tom Hollander acting the gay
expatriate, the lush gay expatri who lives

670
00:53:50,199 --> 00:53:57,000
in Palermo and this magnificent Palazo,
and every performance in that in that show

671
00:53:57,360 --> 00:54:02,039
is nuans to the scripts things and
it's it's it's catty, it's funny,

672
00:54:02,199 --> 00:54:09,480
it's socially insightful, it's satirical.
And then you get to this this it's

673
00:54:09,480 --> 00:54:15,599
not even meat and potatoes, is
it. It's grizzle. And I don't

674
00:54:15,599 --> 00:54:20,960
know, but I agree it's it's
obviously not in the same class as White

675
00:54:20,960 --> 00:54:24,880
Loadus, which is the pinnacle of
television drama at the moment. I mean,

676
00:54:24,880 --> 00:54:30,880
it's it's up there with Succession and
in the same kind of category as

677
00:54:30,920 --> 00:54:35,559
Breaking Bad and The Sopranos. It
is unbelievably good. Um, of course,

678
00:54:35,559 --> 00:54:37,920
it's not as good as that.
I mean, but I think I

679
00:54:37,920 --> 00:54:40,119
think it's a notch up from Burger
King. Um. I think. I

680
00:54:40,119 --> 00:54:43,960
think. I mean, if food
bar is McDonald's, I think it's fairer

681
00:54:43,960 --> 00:54:49,320
to describe this as gourmet burger kitchen. Okay, well that's fine. Um,

682
00:54:49,599 --> 00:54:51,719
yeah, I sort of you know
what I want to do. I

683
00:54:51,800 --> 00:54:55,920
want to watch it on really fast
forward, maybe about times three, just

684
00:54:57,119 --> 00:55:00,719
to see if I can work out
what the motivation of the hijacker. Yes,

685
00:55:00,119 --> 00:55:06,639
that means interestingly, you know,
there's kind of two modes, aren't

686
00:55:06,679 --> 00:55:14,000
there that these streaming platforms kind of
distribute by they either kind of put everything

687
00:55:14,159 --> 00:55:15,840
up there all at once, so
you can just binge it if you want

688
00:55:15,880 --> 00:55:20,079
to, or you know, they
give you a couple of episodes and then

689
00:55:20,079 --> 00:55:23,679
you have to wait each week for
the next episode, and generally with the

690
00:55:23,760 --> 00:55:29,239
latter you do I think hold the
programs to a slightly higher standard because you

691
00:55:29,239 --> 00:55:30,400
you know, with something you can
just binge. You can binge on it,

692
00:55:30,400 --> 00:55:32,880
just as you binge on junk food. It doesn't matter if it's quite

693
00:55:32,960 --> 00:55:37,199
kind of if it's empty calories,
you're less concerned about that, whereas it

694
00:55:37,199 --> 00:55:40,480
has to be quite nutritious if you're
going to make an appointment and remember to

695
00:55:40,599 --> 00:55:44,480
kind of watch it when the new
episode drops. So I think I think

696
00:55:44,519 --> 00:55:47,199
they probably made a mistake there.
I agree they should have just dumped every

697
00:55:47,199 --> 00:55:52,360
episode so we could have just binged
it, and I my interest may begin

698
00:55:52,400 --> 00:55:57,199
to falter you know by episode five, slow Horses, it ain't horses.

699
00:55:57,800 --> 00:56:00,840
Do you ever bother with black Mirror? No? Never did. No.

700
00:56:01,320 --> 00:56:05,480
I think it's for the kids.
Um, yeah, my kids love it.

701
00:56:05,480 --> 00:56:09,800
It's their dystopian future revealed predictive programming. But I watched the first episode

702
00:56:09,800 --> 00:56:16,519
and it's just like, ah,
um, it's got It's got Selma Hiak

703
00:56:16,559 --> 00:56:22,079
in it. And the main,
the main excitement of the episode is it

704
00:56:22,079 --> 00:56:25,760
should have been titled Wow, isn't
it amazing? We got we got got

705
00:56:25,840 --> 00:56:31,199
Selma Hiak in our series? Finally
lucky old us And yeah, I'm thinking,

706
00:56:31,239 --> 00:56:35,760
oh no, I mean that the
whole meta thing I think has been

707
00:56:35,840 --> 00:56:39,960
done. Do you obviously Being John
Malkovic, Yes, yeah, yeah,

708
00:56:40,000 --> 00:56:44,920
I thought it's very good. Nineteen
gros that was made in nineteen ninety nine.

709
00:56:44,960 --> 00:56:47,960
I looked it up. That's a
long time ago. That it is

710
00:56:47,960 --> 00:56:53,599
a long time ago. Yeah,
that's before nine eleven. I once interviewed

711
00:56:53,679 --> 00:56:59,360
the you know, the the the
guy who made the guy who wrote Being

712
00:56:59,440 --> 00:57:02,679
John Malko, which Charlie Kaufman.
So I want to interviewed him on stage

713
00:57:02,760 --> 00:57:07,400
as part of the National Film Festival, and so it was it was a

714
00:57:07,400 --> 00:57:12,280
big set piece event. It was
a packed audituring them, more than five

715
00:57:12,360 --> 00:57:15,719
hundred people there. And I was
a big fan. I am a big

716
00:57:15,760 --> 00:57:19,960
fan, and I've watched all his
movies and he was there to promote a

717
00:57:19,960 --> 00:57:22,440
particular movie. I think I can't
remember which one now, um and um.

718
00:57:23,360 --> 00:57:29,039
And he was the most uncooperative,
difficult interview subject I've ever had to,

719
00:57:30,320 --> 00:57:31,679
never had to deal with this.
I mean, he was just every

720
00:57:31,719 --> 00:57:35,639
question I answered, he would either
he would either he'd give me a hostile

721
00:57:35,840 --> 00:57:39,119
glare and then either a monosyllabic answer, or he'd say, that's a stupid

722
00:57:39,239 --> 00:57:47,360
question. And it was just he
was just unbelievably aggressive and unpleasant and charmless.

723
00:57:49,400 --> 00:57:52,760
And I was trying to kind of, you know, explore some of

724
00:57:52,760 --> 00:57:58,760
his ideas in Dearth, and you
know, I'd read various theoretical essays by

725
00:57:58,920 --> 00:58:01,800
you know, phil academics about his
movies, and his movies inspire a lot

726
00:58:01,840 --> 00:58:06,400
of those, but he was just
so willing to engage about any of it.

727
00:58:06,400 --> 00:58:08,480
He clearly didn't want to be there. It was just a nightmare.

728
00:58:09,239 --> 00:58:12,440
It is horrible when they do that. When you get one of those,

729
00:58:13,480 --> 00:58:19,559
I've suddenly remembered you were going to
tell us tell my fourth anecdotes. Yeah,

730
00:58:19,559 --> 00:58:22,440
so um, yeah, so um. When I went to America to

731
00:58:22,480 --> 00:58:28,199
live there for five years. It
turned out in ninety five when I was

732
00:58:28,239 --> 00:58:32,239
summoned by Grayden Carter to go work
for Vanity Fair. I flew into New

733
00:58:32,320 --> 00:58:38,039
York on July fourth, and it
was the plane was coming in at dusk,

734
00:58:38,599 --> 00:58:45,119
and you could see all these fireworks
exploding as the plane came into land,

735
00:58:45,760 --> 00:58:50,880
and uh, and I said,
Oh, it looks like they knew

736
00:58:50,920 --> 00:58:53,519
I was coming. They seemed to
have laid out the red carpet, the

737
00:58:53,559 --> 00:58:58,519
fireworks. They're so I said this
to my seat mate, who was who

738
00:58:58,599 --> 00:59:04,639
was a sort of you know,
a red state American, and he looked

739
00:59:04,639 --> 00:59:07,639
at me like I was an absolute
idiot and said, what are you talking

740
00:59:07,679 --> 00:59:10,079
about. We're celebrating the fact we
got rid of you guys. And I

741
00:59:10,159 --> 00:59:14,320
was like, yeah, I was
being ironic, for heaven's sake. It

742
00:59:14,360 --> 00:59:16,239
was It's like, are you just
pretending you didn't get that? Or did

743
00:59:16,280 --> 00:59:20,800
you genuinely not get it? And
there was a terrible kind of harbinger of

744
00:59:20,800 --> 00:59:25,159
how all my jokes were just full
flat in the United States. Not all

745
00:59:25,199 --> 00:59:28,320
of them did, in fact,
but I did often get into trouble,

746
00:59:28,320 --> 00:59:34,519
particularly Vanity Fair for making inappropriate jokes
which people completely misunderstood. Anyway, And

747
00:59:34,639 --> 00:59:39,559
my second July fourth anecdote is I
used to rent a summer house when I

748
00:59:39,559 --> 00:59:45,920
lived in New York same period on
Shelter Island, which is which sort of

749
00:59:45,960 --> 00:59:52,800
resembles It resembles kind of the sort
of a Southwest kind of one of those

750
00:59:52,800 --> 00:59:59,840
pretty Southwest coastal villages, a lovely
seaside village, you know, someone like

751
01:00:00,400 --> 01:00:02,599
Bricksom, you know, um and
uh and so it was. It was.

752
01:00:02,599 --> 01:00:08,800
It was a much beloved holiday destination, summer home destination for you know,

753
01:00:08,880 --> 01:00:13,800
the Brits in New York, and
so many of us ended up renting

754
01:00:15,079 --> 01:00:20,000
houses on Shelter Island. That at
this this restaurant we all used to go

755
01:00:20,079 --> 01:00:24,639
to on Friday and Saturday night's called
Sunset Beach, which we remember it was

756
01:00:24,840 --> 01:00:30,880
July fourth. Firework started going off
and I got a chant going of enger

757
01:00:30,960 --> 01:00:36,079
learning, learning to learn, and
the whole restaurant joined in. Almost everyone

758
01:00:36,079 --> 01:00:39,639
in the restaurant was English. It
was we colonized Shelter Island. So I

759
01:00:39,639 --> 01:00:46,280
remember being very proud of that.
Man. I was thinking that that your

760
01:00:46,360 --> 01:00:52,880
experience on that inbound flight was Taylor, I imagine it was the opening paragraph

761
01:00:53,000 --> 01:00:58,079
of your How to Live Friends,
and it was yeah, I mean it

762
01:00:58,519 --> 01:01:00,679
wasn't the opening, but it was
certainly in check to one. I think

763
01:01:00,840 --> 01:01:04,599
it's well, it is great when
real life just just gives you these these

764
01:01:04,679 --> 01:01:08,119
geats. Absolutely, But when you're
when when you when you when you're when

765
01:01:08,159 --> 01:01:15,280
your writers like us kind of churning
out columns, you immediately think when something

766
01:01:15,320 --> 01:01:19,000
like that happens, that's great fodder. And it's sort of like you live

767
01:01:19,079 --> 01:01:22,320
life at one remove, kind of
constantly kind of keeping your eyes peeled the

768
01:01:22,360 --> 01:01:27,239
stuff that you can kind of regurgitate
in a column or a brook. Yeah,

769
01:01:27,239 --> 01:01:30,199
it's true. Um, well,
okay, I'm going to go and

770
01:01:30,280 --> 01:01:35,199
drink some water before I go off
to my bloods class. Um, okay,

771
01:01:35,480 --> 01:01:39,559
I'm in my keytosis and I'm going
to go. Okay, good good

772
01:01:39,599 --> 01:01:44,320
luck with your diet, and yeah, don't use any weight and yeah,

773
01:01:44,800 --> 01:02:09,199
yeah we're talking this week. Okay, this is London. Bully Ricochet joined the conversation