WEBVTT

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Christian apologist and former cold case detective
Jay Warner Wallace says it's important for theists

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to understand circumstantial evidence, which is
when an observation or argument supports a conclusion

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not directly, but by way of
an additional logical inference. Wallace notes that

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it's rare and sometimes even impossible to
have direct evidence of events in the distant

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past, and that circumstantial evidence can
be just as relevant and just as powerful

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as direct evidence, and he's right
as long as that inferential link can be

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established. As atheists were often accused
of dismissing evidence for the existence of a

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god without even considering it. But
before making that accusation, ask yourself,

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have you established the inference that connects
your evidence to your conclusion. If you

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can't justify that inference, then you
don't have evidence and you just have a

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claim and you should be dismissed.
But if you can justify that inference,

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that means you're right. You do
have evidence for your God. And if

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you're right, we want to hear
it because we want to be right too.

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So here's your big chance to make
your case, because the show is

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starting right now. Yes, yes, we do want to be right also,

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and that is why that was an
amazing, amazing intro. Thank you

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Scott Dicky for joining me today,
everybody, thank you for tuning in.

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This is talk Hethan. Today is
Sunday, June thirtieth, and we are

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live. I am Jimmy Junior,
your host again. The great Scott Dicky

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is with me, the world renowned
mathematician. I don't know if he's well

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renowned, yeah, but he's definitely
ACA renowned, and dude, I'm renowned

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in my own mind. Well,
you know, I love working with you

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and I'm so glad to have you
here today. Folks, today is well

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I already said the date. But
this is Talking Than a product of the

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Atheist Community of Austin. We are
a five oh one C three nonprofit organization

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dedicated to the promotion of atheism,
critical thinking, secular humanism, and my

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personal favorite, the separation of religion
and government. Are live call in show.

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We do have open lines, so
get your calls in now at five

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one two nine, two four to
two, or from your computer for those

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of you tech savvy folks at tiny
dot c c forward slash call t H.

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All right, it is showtime.
Scott how the heck are you.

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I'm doing well. I'm excited to
be here with with you. Jimmy.

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I appreciate you having me on the
show. You know, you and I

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have been on the nonprofits for for
for a little while now, and I

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always love working with you. I
always come I always come away knowing something

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that I didn't know when I came
into it. So so I'm looking forward

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to today. Well, I appreciate
that, I say, the feelings mutual.

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You know, we have some good
discussions. We're going to have some

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good discussions today. Uh, Scott, I don't want to waste any time

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we got Uh we got a caller, who's call I want to take?

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So sure? Let you all right? Yeah? Yeah, So we have

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got Mike. He him from New
York. We're coming to you. Wants

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to talk about DNA and the existence
of God. So, Mike, you

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are on the air with Jimmy and
Scott. Yeah, Mike, what is

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up? Hey? Mike? Hey? Are you guys? Very well?

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Very well? How are you?
And how can we help you? More

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importantly? Fine, that was the
first thing I was going to ask you.

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How can I help you? I
don't know, I mean, hey,

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look, I guess I'm always looking
for help in some way. But

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you called today. You wanted to
talk to us. What's the point you

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want to make. I can't remember
exactly what the statement was, but I

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had something to do with believing in
God, and I said, DNA is

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all the proof that you ever need, and I'll give you a reason for

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that. I'm sixty three years old. About five years ago, I was

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starting to have some physical issues and
I ended up going to the emergency room

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and they told me my blood pressure
was two forty over one twenty. And

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that doctor said, you've never seen
anybody still alive with those types of numbers.

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But it turns out I have a
blood cancer that's caused by a genetic

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mutation of what's called the Jack two
protein. So I went to Memorial Sloan

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Kettering in New York City. I
met with a specialist and talked with him

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put me on medication. So I
decided to do some studying of DNA and

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the genetic mutation. Well, I
have, as many people know, all

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of your genetic information is basically three
billion base pairs of information are in every

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single cell of your body. And
we all know about the double helix.

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But I didn't really know how DNA
actually worked and how it did its job.

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Having Ama Lyman, I'm not going
to tell you I'm some type of

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scientists, but looking at how the
DNA works from a translation point of view,

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from transcription, elongation, ribosomes,
these molecularly molecular machines. After reviewing

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that, I came away with the
impression that this is actual proof that there's

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a designer. I'm a software developer. I've been a software developer for four

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years. The way that DNA works
is like a program. I mean,

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when it's making a protein, it
says there are codeons to say, start

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making this protein at this juncture and
keep keep compiging and translating until you get

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to this juncture. All right,
Well, Mike, I'm gonna I'm gonna

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jump in right here. I think
that you and I appreciate the call and

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thank you for all the info.
Yeah, I want to just keep the

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conversation flowing. I'm not trying to
cut you off and be disrespectful, but

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I think I think that you have
laid out the things that have convinced you

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that God is a creator, that
there is a creator God, And you

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have basically said you know. Yeah, the studies that you've done and the

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things that you've come up with have
have led you to that point, and

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so you've made your claim. Scott, if you don't mind, I'll let

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you go ahead and take a first
stab at responding to Mike. Sure,

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sure thing, Mike, thanks for
your excuse me, Thanks for your call.

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I appreciate appreciate your calling in and
sharing this with us. I suppose

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the first thing that I would ask
you is it appears that you are amazed

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at the complexity and are and amazed
at the seemingly step by step, and

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you talked about software development. I
have a little bit of a software background,

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and in my own in my own
life, I'm curious, how do

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you make the jump from it appears
like it was designed to the conclusion that

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it was designed. I don't excuse
me. I don't know if you heard

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the opening to the show, but
we were talking about making the inference.

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How do we make the inference from
here we have this thing, to making

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the claim that this thing, the
existence of this thing actually entails the existence

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of a god. And so so, to restate my my question again,

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how do you make that jump from
this sure appears to I mean, you've

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you've talked about how you weren't an
expert in the field. How does it

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How do you jump from it appears
to be designed to me to making the

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conclusion that it was designed A couple
of things, And I'll give you a

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real quick analogy. If you and
I were to walk through the desert desert

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southwest the United States, one hundred
miles from anywhere and anybody. If we

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came across a four x four post
with a metal box on top with the

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words US Mail imposed on it,
and I told you, look what happens

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with wind and erosion and rain over
hundreds of years, you would think I

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was a lunatic, would you not? But that is just not You would

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clearly would know that there was somebody
put that there and made it. But

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that doesn't answer my question. That
doesn't answer my question. My question was

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how do you make the jump from
it appears to be designed to it is

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designed. If you want to ask
me about the mailbox, I can give

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you an answer to that because we
know people that design mailboxes. We've seen

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factories that make mailboxes, and so
we didn't discover mailboxes. And from there

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come to the conclusion that we have
factories that make mailboxes. It was the

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other way around. We knew about
the designers first, and then we were

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able to make that conclusion about the
mailbox. And so that's what I would

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say about about the mailbox. There. Can you do that same thing if

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this is an argument for God?
Are you assuming God coming into it?

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Because if that's the case, it's
not. It's kind of a you know,

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you're begging the question, of course, but can you make that case?

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Can you make that connection from your
evidence to your conclusion. Well,

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here's my number one reason that I
believe that is a god, because,

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okay, it is so complex.
Let's take a biogenesis okay, the ability

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to create life from non life.
Scientists have been trying to do that for

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decades now. But hold on,
hold on, Mike, Mike, Mike,

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Mike, let me just let me
just interject here for a second.

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You you are now completely changing the
subject, right, You're you're introducing a

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completely new topic, and you're deflecting
from what Scott is talking about. Okay,

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so you are trying to advocate for
this idea that, because DNA is

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so complex, that it must have
a creator, and what Scott's question was,

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how do you get from the fact
that it's complex to the fact that

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or to the bulief that because it's
complex, there must be a creator?

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Right, it's an awfully big gap. To introduce other scientific problems that have

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not been solved, other hypotheses that
don't have anything to do with what we're

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talking about, is a deflection.
You have to stay on course. And

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so your claim was that DNA is
so complex and that your research led you

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to believe that there is a god
that created everything? How do you get

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there from merely looking at the structure
of DNA purely mathematics. That's a great

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answer, because go ahead, so
lay it down the math for us here.

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What's the I am a math literate, so feel free to get into

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as much detail as you like.
What's the mathematics of DNA that leads you

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to the conclusion that there's a god? Okay? The proteins are the workforce

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of the human body. They do
every function. A small protein is made

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up of one hundred and fifty subunits
tie chain. Each one of those subunits

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is made up of one to twenty
amino acids. There are twenty that's it.

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So if you were to take a
polypeptie chain, and if you could

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do this on your calculator, it's
going to be one of twenty, and

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the next one's going to be one
of twenty, and the next one's going

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to be one of twenty. Take
twenty times twenty times twenty and just do

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it about eight ten times, and
you're already up over a trillion combination for

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ten let alone one hundred and fifty
subunits. Okay, so you multiplied a

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bunch of twenties and you have a
number. How does that relate to your

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arguments? Sure? At the last
of my argument is that evolution simply cannot

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occur. You cannot have enough chance
occurring and in a lifetime, in the

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lifetime of this universe to do the
things that you expect an organism to change.

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To my feeling is that those the
DNA elements were already designed in And

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is there adaptation? I totally agree
that there's adaptation. We get that that's

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your conclusion. But what I'm asking
you is how do you come to that

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conclusion. It seems to me like
you're saying there wasn't enough time for this

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to happen naturally. Okay, So
Let's assume that that's true. Let's say

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that our understanding of evolution requires a
certain amount of time for DNA to develop,

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and let's say we haven't had enough, haven't had that much time.

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My question still stands, Okay,
how can you come to the conclusion that

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there was a creator here just based
off of what you've said so far?

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So make that link? So at
best, at best, what you've said

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so far, at best, it
would show that evolution can't happen. Even

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if we were to assume everything that
you've said about mathematics, although you didn't

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present much as far as mathematics are
concerned, how can you still make that

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You still haven't done that last most
important steps? How do you make that

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leap? There? By the absolute
complexity? The complexity I mean you have

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you have twenty trillion cells in your
body. In each cell in a mammal,

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there are ten million ribosomes bike making
proof. So are you saying that

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complexity requires a designer or that complexity
can't arrive naturally? I'm saying no,

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it cannot write this type of vaultity
cannot write what you now, you have

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something that you need to justify what
you're what you're doing is invoking the god

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of the gaps fallacy. Basically,
you don't understand how it happened, and

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therefore you conclude that something beyond your
understanding, like a god or a deity,

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must have done that thing. But
we have no pathway to arrive at

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that conclusion. All we have,
at the bare minimum is a bunch of

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really complex human DNA, right,
because that's what you're talking about. But

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you could take DNA from any sample
set of the biological world. Let's just

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take one sample set. It's really
complex, and your conclusion is because it's

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complex, therefore a god must have
created it. But that is not the

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way anything works. No standard of
evidence in anything else that we do as

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people works that way. We can't
just guess because we don't know the answer.

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And that is what you are doing. Well, Listen, I tried

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to break it down and make it
simple for you by talking about a biogenesis,

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because we go ahead and say it. Go ahead, go ahead and

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bring up go ahead and make your
point about a biogenesis. Because you tried

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to talk about a biogenesis. But
what you were also doing at that same

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time was deflecting answering Scott's question,
Uh, and you were, which you're

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still doing, by the way,
and you're still deflecting that, you're still

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avoiding answering my question. Sorry,
Jimmy, go ahead. No, No,

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that's fine, that's fine. How
do I make I want and I

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want him to answer the first question
before we start moving on. If you

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want to talk about biogenesis, at
least at least concede that you don't have

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a pathway to arrive at God.
My pathway to arrive at God is the

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complexity. You can't have that kind
of design, but we do. It's

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not a design. Know, if
we grant the complexity, Okay, if

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we grant the complexity, how do
you then make the next step to therefore

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God? Are you saying all complex
things must come from a God, must

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come from a designer? But if
I were to pick one hundred random digits

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in a row, the chance of
that happening is one over ten to one

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hundred, right, and so it's
extremely unlikely. Yet it just happened,

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and not by any design, just
by randomness. Random things happen all the

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time. Most of the things that
you see every day all the time are

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ridiculously unlikely. People win the lottery
every day, and it's not because it's

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a likely thing. It's still an
unlikely thing, but it's the entire scenario

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that contributes to those to those things
happening. Same thing here when we're talking

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about things developing in nature. Yeah, there's all of these very unlikely things

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happening. That doesn't mean that they
can't happen. In fact, you could

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also you could argue that they must
happen, that rare things have to happen.

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If everybody, if we have a
million people and they all buy a

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lottery ticket and we pick one of
them at random, we've just guaranteed that

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a one in a million thing will
happen, and it won't matter who who

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wins. They all have a one
in a million chance of winning. That's

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a guarantee that a one in a
million thing will happen. And you know

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what, if I do it again
tomorrow, it'll happen again tomorrow. So

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the unlikeliness doesn't necessarily lead to design. Unlikeliness just leads to unlikeliness. Ahead,

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Mike, your thoughts back to why
I called Okay, why I called

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this because I have cancer? Well, hold on a sec hold on a

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secon all right, I am an
n genetic mutations are cancer. They are

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they are. I do not favor
the organ is. Listen, listen,

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I am you're unlike I want to. I want to be very clear about

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something. My cold on and I'm
gonna just give me a chance to talk

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so I don't have to use the
mute button. Please. I hate that.

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Uh. Look, I'm really sorry
that you have to go through that.

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Okay. I just want to make
that clear that we are not insensitive,

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and I appreciate that you're open about
that. That, however, is

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not grounds to land on God.
You know. I mean if you called,

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you didn't call because you have cancer, right, and I mean that

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very respectfully. You called to say
that the complexity of DNA is proof that

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God exists. Okay, And we've
been spending quite a few minutes now just

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trying to get you to explain to
us how you arrive there, and it

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seems like your answer is, well, it's so complex we don't understand it,

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therefore it must be God. But
think about all the things we didn't

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understand before. Right, There were
plagues, right that people used to get

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sick and die, and they thought
it was witchcraft from other groups. They

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thought it was witchcraft from within their
own groups. They thought it was God's

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will you name it? Because they
didn't understand biology, they didn't understand germs,

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they didn't understand hygiene, and so
when people died, they didn't under

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stand something and they said, well, it must be God. Here we

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are and now we're in twenty twenty
four instead of back in the Middle Ages

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or even one hundred years ago,
and we're still having these same conversations just

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because we don't understand how something so
complex can come into being, and we

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can't understand everything about it. We
don't ascribe that to a being that we

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can't define, right, And you
said that we can't replicate this DNA,

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so therefore that it must be unique
in that it's God. Well, I

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would challenge you that you can't replicate
God. I mean, you can't demonstrate

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it, you can't summon it,
you can't show it in any way,

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we cannot measure it. We have
no idea where it exists or how to

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test it. But what we do
have is DNA, and what we do

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have is evidence for evolution. And
so you're saying that those things are impossible,

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but to the contrary, they are
quite possible. What's impossible is demonstrating

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God. And so here we have
this conundrum. Right, you claim that

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God is responsible for all these things, but you can't prove it, and

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so now go ahead and prove it. If there is no God, it

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should be child's play for us to
do what DNA does and create life from

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non life. It would be child's
play. Why did you say should in

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there justify the use of that word
should? You said it should be child's

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play for us to do it if
there's no God. Why do you think

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that should be the case. There's
a lot of because with the supercomputers we

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have today, with what everything that
we think we know, we ought to

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be able to replicate the primary primordial
soup that you say, well, nobody

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was involved in the ear. This
all happened because of the elements, right

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that you're just repeating what you said
before. You said we should be able

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to do it, and then I
said, explain why we should be able

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to do it, and you said, well, we ought to be able

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to do it. Changing the words
doesn't justify your use of the words.

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Okay, why do you think that
we should be able You're saying that we

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can't do something that happened. Why
do you think we should be able to

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do that? We can't. We
have attempted. There are many scientists that

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have you said, you said we
should be able to I want you to

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just I want you to justify just
at least one thing that you're saying today.

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Why do you think that we should
be able to do that? Listen,

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we're talking to this PRIMORDI. That's
not answering my question. I'll ask

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you one more time, why do
you think we should be able to do

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that? Let me reframe, Let
me reframe. What's what's going on here?

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Sorry, Mike, let me reframe
this here, and I want to

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make sure I get what you're saying
here first. Okay, are you saying

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that this DNA could not have come
about naturally? Right? You're so you're

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saying we can exclude natural causes and
so therefore it must be God. Is

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that what you're saying? Yes,
that there is a designer? Okay,

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So if there is no God,
could God have designed DNA? If there

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is no God? Could if there's
no God, could could DNA be God

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designed? If there's no God?
How could DNA be God designed? If

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there's no God? That's what I'm
asking you if I don't, Are you

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saying that it couldn't? Are you
saying that a God that doesn't exist cannot

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design any DNA? Is that what
you're saying. I'm saying that God does

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exist and did create DNA. If
God does not exist, can God create

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DNA? It's a simple answer.
We all know the answer. But I

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want to hear you if you agree, can a God that doesn't exist design

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any DNA? No? Okay,
good, I agree? I agree God?

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So how did God get on your
list of possible explanations for DNA?

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How did God get on your list? Because you're saying, I have this

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list of possible things. We can
eliminate all these natural possibilities if we're if

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we're, we're granting you that that
we can. Okay, so that's for

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the sake of argument, we'll go
we'll stipulate that if we can eliminate these

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natural causes off of our list of
possible explanations, you're saying that leaves just

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God. How did God get on
the list, Because, as you just

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agreed, if God doesn't exist,
then God can't be on that list.

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So either you're assuming that God exists, which begs the question or some other

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reason, how did God get on
your list of possible explanations? To me,

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it is clearly designed, which implies
a designer to you, to you,

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and that is a big distinction.
That's a big distinction, Mike.

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So you tell you what meant to
me, But that's not what you said

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in the beginning. Because what you
said is that DNA is the only proof

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that we will ever need, and
I assume that Scott and I are included

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in that we. The thing is, though both of us are somewhat educated,

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I've considered myself to be somewhat educated. I mean, I'm not a

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biologist or a scientist by any means, but I think I've absorbed enough information

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about the natural world to understand why
evolution and why DNA, or at least

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how it formed the way that it
did, and how evolution took place.

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None of that provides for a God. In fact, we can separate the

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idea of God completely from what we
understand about the world, and we still

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have the world exactly the same,
unchanged right. God really fulfills no necessary

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niche whatsoever. There is not a
natural process that happens in the world that

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God and only God fills. It's
just this kind of outlier, right,

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It's this thing, this idea that's
floating around out there that people turn to

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and say, well, how about
God as an option? And that's what

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Scott's asking you. You know,
how did you arrive at God being your

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choice? Out of all the other
things that could have led to the development

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of DNA? Right, all of
the natural processes over fourteen billion or four

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billion years, right, that could
have led to the development of DNA,

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You chose this if you will invisible
what I would say, imaginary character that

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you cannot test, communicate with,
You cannot demonstrate this thing that's almost impossible

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to show. Oh that's your your
conclusion. You also seem to have have

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eliminated any possible natural explanation that we
don't know about yet, or that we

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can't know about, or that we
don't understand. Okay, so you're excluding

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those, but you still have God
and you still haven't justified putting God on

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your list. You know, this
happens a lot with these style of arguments,

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these these what else could it be? Type of arguments, And there's

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really two parts to what else could
it be? Argument? It involves coming

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up with some possible explanations for the
you know, for the phenomenon, and

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then eliminating the possibilities that you know
it can't be. Okay, And so

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there's two. You've you've done some
of the second, or at least you

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say you've done some of the second. If we grant that you've done some

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of the second, maybe some of
the processes that we currently are aware of

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can't explain the existence of the DNA, even if we go in hulehog here

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and we say, what if we
could prove that evolution could not have generated

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DNA? Okay, you still haven't
told me. How could God be on

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the list? How do you know
God could be an explanation? Because,

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as you agreed, God can only
be an explanation if God exists. So

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either you're assuming God exists or you
have some other criteria for getting God onto

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that list. And so that's what
I would love it if you would just

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answer at least one question for us
today. How did God get on your

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list of things that could have made
DNA? Keep answering it, and you

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keep taking I'm not answering it's answer, say more time, say yeah,

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give it to us. I mean, if I can't explain, and if

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somebody else can't demonstrate to me that
they can reproduce any natural occurrence that you

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talked about about all them natural things, Okay, we should be able to

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replicate a natural thing from Okay,
So what you're talking about crossing things off

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the list? Okay, what I'm
asking is how did God get on the

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list? Crossing things off the list
does nothing to add explanations to the possibilities.

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Okay, crossing natural if you if
we crossed off all possible natural explanations,

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somehow we would end up with an
I don't know, an empty list.

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The only way we could come to
the conclusion of a god is if

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we know that God could design DNA, which you know God can't do if

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God doesn't exist. And so again, are you assuming God exists or is

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there some other criteria? The oh
I can't think of how it's going to

359
00:25:22.519 --> 00:25:26.200
work is not going to fly here. Okay, you have to cross natural

360
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explanations off. You still have to
get that God onto the list. How

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does that happen? You asked me
when I call Your producer asked me,

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when I called it, am I
theist? I said, I'm as I

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grew up. I grew up going
to church. But you know, I

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always thought, well, you know
what, maybe I'm believing in the Bible

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is not the truth because we do
have DNA, we do have science,

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we do have all these things that
maybe have proven that the Bible was incorrect.

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But it says in the Bible God
created the haven't done there created?

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Man? Okay, I'm telling you, so you aren't coming into this with

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some God belief then, so so
perhaps and correct, please correct. I

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00:26:04.400 --> 00:26:07.720
don't want to mischaracterize you, So
please correct me if I'm if I'm mistaken

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00:26:07.759 --> 00:26:11.599
here. It sounds to me like
you're saying that you are coming into this

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assuming that a God exists. And
so if that's the case, if you're

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trying to prove, if you're trying
to provide evidence that God exists, and

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the only way you can get to
that evidence is by first assuming that a

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00:26:23.359 --> 00:26:27.480
God does exist. Do you think
that's a good, solid, reasonable way

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to come to a conclusion. Look, my conclusion is that based on the

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DNA that I observed and how it
works, my initial believer in God was

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00:26:41.799 --> 00:26:45.839
solidified. Let's put it that way, all right. So, Mike,

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you you because you as a child
were brought Oh listen, listen. You

380
00:26:51.279 --> 00:26:55.279
as a child, right since the
earliest days that you can remember, were

381
00:26:55.279 --> 00:27:00.359
brought up being told by people you
loved and trusted and protected you that God

382
00:27:00.480 --> 00:27:06.359
was real and God was responsible for
everything. You have absorbed a lifetime of

383
00:27:06.519 --> 00:27:12.720
programming that confirms your suspicions, and
that was further confirmed by the fact that

384
00:27:12.799 --> 00:27:17.039
you went through a traumatic event and
needed to make sense of it. And

385
00:27:17.079 --> 00:27:21.960
I think what you keep coming up
with is this confirmation bias that reaffirms what

386
00:27:22.000 --> 00:27:25.880
you have been told by all the
people that you love and trust and have

387
00:27:26.039 --> 00:27:29.480
related to throughout your life. I
mean, this is a very social and

388
00:27:29.599 --> 00:27:33.000
cultural construct to believe in this kind
of thing. But really, in the

389
00:27:33.160 --> 00:27:37.440
end, what you're telling us is
that your whole life you've been told that

390
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God is the author of everything we
know, the creator of all of the

391
00:27:42.680 --> 00:27:47.079
most complex things. And here you
have a complex thing. It must be

392
00:27:47.119 --> 00:27:49.480
God. And what Scott and I
are simply saying is that that evidence is

393
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not good enough for us, because
that's not evidence, that's just a guess.

394
00:27:53.200 --> 00:27:56.960
It's a warm, fuzzy feeling that
really doesn't do anything for the argument

395
00:27:57.000 --> 00:28:03.440
that God exists. And so that
is how I'm gonna actually end this call.

396
00:28:03.880 --> 00:28:07.039
I think that this was a really
good conversation. We've got other callers

397
00:28:07.079 --> 00:28:10.319
on the line. Uh, Mike, thanks a lot for calling us.

398
00:28:10.400 --> 00:28:15.119
I thought that that was a great, great exchange, And thank you Scott

399
00:28:15.200 --> 00:28:18.880
for being so involved in that call. That was great. I just want

400
00:28:18.920 --> 00:28:22.000
to throw in one more one more
thing about Mike here. And and Mike,

401
00:28:22.119 --> 00:28:25.319
I'm not I'm not saying that I
think you're an unreasonable person. I'm

402
00:28:25.319 --> 00:28:29.160
not saying that you're uh, you
know, being negligent in your reasoning.

403
00:28:29.400 --> 00:28:32.319
I'm just saying that I just want
to I was I just want to know

404
00:28:32.559 --> 00:28:36.160
do you think if that's a good
way to come up with something that's true.

405
00:28:36.400 --> 00:28:40.519
We can understand, uh why you
might think that, but we want

406
00:28:40.519 --> 00:28:44.480
to know epistemologically is it? Is
it justified? Is that justified belief?

407
00:28:44.519 --> 00:28:47.599
We know that we can come up
with beliefs and and I know, I

408
00:28:47.640 --> 00:28:49.920
know Mike's off now, but I
just want Mike to think about this,

409
00:28:49.960 --> 00:28:53.200
if he's still listening here. Is
that a good way to come up with

410
00:28:53.240 --> 00:29:00.000
a conclusion. We understand that you
came into this with some God belief already,

411
00:29:00.160 --> 00:29:03.160
and you know, there's nothing wrong
with that as far as your character

412
00:29:03.279 --> 00:29:07.440
is concerned. But just think about
think about that, think about the baggage

413
00:29:07.480 --> 00:29:12.119
that you bring in to the discussion. Does that taint or color or tint

414
00:29:12.400 --> 00:29:17.359
how you proceed from there? And
think about that. Yeah, for sure,

415
00:29:17.559 --> 00:29:18.880
I thought that was a great exchange, Mike. You you were a

416
00:29:18.880 --> 00:29:23.599
really honest caller, really gave us
an opportunity to say what we wanted to

417
00:29:23.640 --> 00:29:26.119
say. I hope you felt like
you were heard, although man, I

418
00:29:26.119 --> 00:29:29.720
think you could have answered the questions
just a little bit better. We were

419
00:29:29.839 --> 00:29:33.079
kind of dragging on there a little
bit, but nonetheless, we love you,

420
00:29:33.160 --> 00:29:34.680
Mike, if you're watching, but
we want to move on, you

421
00:29:34.680 --> 00:29:37.559
know, Scott, we got to
do talk Ethan to me. We have

422
00:29:37.640 --> 00:29:42.799
to get this out there because we
had We have our viewers out there answering,

423
00:29:42.880 --> 00:29:47.920
taking the time to put their thoughts
out there on the interwebs, and

424
00:29:47.960 --> 00:29:52.759
we're going to read them and let's
go. So last week we asked what

425
00:29:52.920 --> 00:29:56.039
is the proof that God hates you? And here are our top three answers.

426
00:29:56.039 --> 00:30:00.160
So number three comes from James Larimer. The proof that God hates me

427
00:30:00.720 --> 00:30:03.559
is that he wrote it on my
heart. What more proof would I need?

428
00:30:04.119 --> 00:30:07.079
Well, yeah, that's a good
ja no, you know, I

429
00:30:07.119 --> 00:30:11.200
mean apparently everybody has something written by
God on their heart, don't they.

430
00:30:11.200 --> 00:30:15.319
It looks like James is uh,
James's got something different written than the rest

431
00:30:15.319 --> 00:30:18.480
of us are supposed to have.
But a fool would deny that. So

432
00:30:18.559 --> 00:30:22.559
yeah, yeah, yeah, thank
you James for that number two x million.

433
00:30:22.839 --> 00:30:26.960
God hates me because in order to
be saved, I have to believe

434
00:30:26.000 --> 00:30:30.640
in Him, which seems to be
predicated upon me believing in stories about talking

435
00:30:30.680 --> 00:30:33.920
animals, which I cannot do.
No, I got you there, Like,

436
00:30:34.160 --> 00:30:37.160
that's a that's a difighting line for
me too. I don't know about

437
00:30:37.200 --> 00:30:40.880
you, Scott, but you know, people always tell me like, and

438
00:30:40.920 --> 00:30:44.000
then I try not to be so
insulting, you know, because my mind

439
00:30:44.039 --> 00:30:47.200
goes there immediately. Sometimes those people
will say, well, it's okay for

440
00:30:47.279 --> 00:30:48.799
me to have my opinion, and
I go, yeah, but you know

441
00:30:48.880 --> 00:30:56.200
your opinion is also that a talking
snake is probable, right that donkeys there?

442
00:30:56.519 --> 00:31:00.319
Yeah? So uh man, we
just you got to get packaged deal.

443
00:31:00.440 --> 00:31:02.960
It's a package deal. You take
it all or none. That's the

444
00:31:03.000 --> 00:31:06.200
way it works. That's right,
that's right. And then number one,

445
00:31:06.680 --> 00:31:10.039
Cilia Gray, proof that God hates
me. This is a deep one.

446
00:31:10.160 --> 00:31:14.839
This is a deep one. God
gave me a male body when I'm supposed

447
00:31:14.839 --> 00:31:18.880
to be a female, and that
caused me to suffer a lifetime of intolerance

448
00:31:18.920 --> 00:31:23.400
from my conservative Christian family, in
addition to the gender dysphoria and depression that

449
00:31:23.480 --> 00:31:29.279
could only be treated by expensive transgender
healthcare. Gee, thanks God, you

450
00:31:29.440 --> 00:31:32.640
colossal jerk. And then she goes
on to say, nothing wrong with being

451
00:31:32.680 --> 00:31:36.720
a male. The problem is that
it's not just me. Uh so,

452
00:31:36.839 --> 00:31:41.119
yeah, I I Hey, Celia
Gray, thank you so much for putting

453
00:31:41.160 --> 00:31:44.160
that out there for everybody. And
I'm sorry that you had to deal with

454
00:31:44.200 --> 00:31:48.359
that kind of that kind of struggle. We love you though. And it's

455
00:31:48.400 --> 00:31:51.319
still Pride Month, although every month
is Pride month. I mean, let's

456
00:31:51.440 --> 00:31:55.240
let's be honest, Pride month.
Pride rights are human rights, right exactly.

457
00:31:55.519 --> 00:31:57.000
But yeah, in honor of Pride
Month and and people like you,

458
00:31:57.079 --> 00:32:01.359
Celia Gray, I wore this head. Scott's got his little rainbow design on

459
00:32:01.440 --> 00:32:06.359
his shirt going, and you're among
friends here. But I want to thank

460
00:32:06.480 --> 00:32:09.920
everybody who supported us and who continues
to support the ACA. Thank you for

461
00:32:12.559 --> 00:32:15.400
putting your thoughts there in the comments
and letting us read them. Thank you

462
00:32:15.440 --> 00:32:19.920
to the LGBTQI a community. Unlike
God, we can't really thank God for

463
00:32:20.000 --> 00:32:24.200
much. So anyway, next week
we have got a new prompt, Scott,

464
00:32:24.319 --> 00:32:28.079
You're gonna have to answer this one
first as hit me with it.

465
00:32:28.359 --> 00:32:30.720
Yeah, so when you go to
Hell, who is the first person you

466
00:32:30.759 --> 00:32:35.839
want to talk to? That's an
excellent question and important question if there is

467
00:32:35.880 --> 00:32:38.079
in fact a Hell. So it's
best to be prepared right just in case.

468
00:32:38.440 --> 00:32:40.880
And this might be a little bit
before your time, Jimmy, but

469
00:32:42.319 --> 00:32:44.799
the first person that I would want
to talk to when I got to Hell

470
00:32:45.240 --> 00:32:49.200
would be Julie McCoy. And for
those of you of a certain age,

471
00:32:49.240 --> 00:32:52.200
you might remember a little show called
The Love Boat, and Julie McCoy was

472
00:32:52.240 --> 00:32:57.640
the cruise director on the Love Boat
and she had all of the hookups.

473
00:32:57.640 --> 00:33:00.000
And so if I'm in Hell,
I want somebody that can get me an

474
00:33:00.000 --> 00:33:05.440
air conditioned room. I want somebody
that knows where all the best buffets are.

475
00:33:05.759 --> 00:33:07.960
I want to know somebody who knows
the best spot to do some sun

476
00:33:08.000 --> 00:33:12.279
tanning on that lake of fire.
I want to talk to Julie McCoy.

477
00:33:12.319 --> 00:33:15.559
First, Yeah, I think that
sounds reasonable. I mean, she might

478
00:33:15.680 --> 00:33:19.319
know, you know, how do
we know she's in hell? Though she

479
00:33:19.359 --> 00:33:22.839
knows, she knows everybody. Did
she do something to land in Hell?

480
00:33:22.960 --> 00:33:25.599
I means, what's going on there? We're talking about a fictional place and

481
00:33:25.599 --> 00:33:30.839
a fictional character. So I think
we're allowed a certain amount of literary leeway

482
00:33:30.000 --> 00:33:35.559
here. Well, you know,
nothing about the question suggests that you can't.

483
00:33:35.599 --> 00:33:38.400
You can't request to speak to somebody
out of hell. It just says,

484
00:33:38.440 --> 00:33:40.279
when you go to Hell, who's
the first person you want to talk

485
00:33:40.279 --> 00:33:45.319
to? Vote. I'd invoke Jesus, I would write. I mean,

486
00:33:45.400 --> 00:33:46.319
I'd be like, hey, dude, do you remember that time I was

487
00:33:46.400 --> 00:33:49.880
baptized when I was a kid.
I thought I was saved. I thought

488
00:33:49.920 --> 00:33:52.160
I was safe. What am I
doing here? But anyway, Yeah,

489
00:33:52.200 --> 00:33:53.960
Scott, thank you very much.
That is a very creative, very good

490
00:33:54.000 --> 00:33:59.359
answer, And we are looking forward
to the answers for next week. So

491
00:33:59.359 --> 00:34:04.079
folks, remember to put your answer
to talk ethen to me for next week

492
00:34:04.160 --> 00:34:08.360
in the comments section of today's show
after recording is done. And what I

493
00:34:08.360 --> 00:34:12.960
want to do right now is go
to the people that make it all happen.

494
00:34:13.039 --> 00:34:15.880
Okay, this is not just me
and Scott here making magic happens.

495
00:34:16.280 --> 00:34:20.519
There's other people involved. Man,
there's a lot of other people. Awesome,

496
00:34:20.920 --> 00:34:23.519
the crew. So let's go to
the crew. Yes, crew,

497
00:34:23.920 --> 00:34:28.639
Yeah, look at all those people
all right? Loving the shirt? Jonathan

498
00:34:28.800 --> 00:34:31.800
great? Great? All right,
yeah, so part proud to be part

499
00:34:31.840 --> 00:34:37.119
of the team. Here. We
are going to move on to another call,

500
00:34:37.159 --> 00:34:42.119
though, I hope everybody feels heard
and seen and feels like they got

501
00:34:42.159 --> 00:34:45.599
an adequate shout out, because now
we're going to Annie in Canada. So

502
00:34:45.639 --> 00:34:50.920
Annie's calling says or asks, how
can we infer from nature a designer?

503
00:34:51.480 --> 00:34:54.519
And so it sounds like she is
calling about the call that we just had.

504
00:34:54.639 --> 00:34:58.280
I'm going to talk to Annie right
now. All right, Annie,

505
00:34:58.320 --> 00:35:00.880
you are on with Jimmy Ence Scott. How are you? I'm good?

506
00:35:00.960 --> 00:35:04.639
Are you? We're doing great?
We're doing great. Happy you called?

507
00:35:04.880 --> 00:35:07.559
What's the what's the point you're trying
to make today? So what I want

508
00:35:07.559 --> 00:35:15.039
to start off with is by outlining
that if a machine or a system has

509
00:35:15.360 --> 00:35:20.880
the qualities of design, why can't
we infer that they're designed? I'm not

510
00:35:20.920 --> 00:35:24.079
sure what you mean, Like,
if a machine has the qualities of design.

511
00:35:24.159 --> 00:35:29.519
Why cannot we infer the machine is
designed? I can infer a machine

512
00:35:29.599 --> 00:35:31.880
is designed? Is that what you're
I mean, I know machines are designed,

513
00:35:32.239 --> 00:35:37.079
but the sell, for example,
is a machine. So if well,

514
00:35:37.159 --> 00:35:38.639
what are these properties that you're talking
about? Give us some of these

515
00:35:38.639 --> 00:35:42.760
properties that you're looking for. What
are the properties of being designed? I

516
00:35:43.079 --> 00:35:46.079
suspect that Jimmy knows that a machine
is designed. But because he probably knows

517
00:35:46.079 --> 00:35:51.760
some machinists, he's probably knows some
engineers. He probably maybe a scene of

518
00:35:51.800 --> 00:35:53.920
factory or two in his life,
he kind of knows that that kind of

519
00:35:53.920 --> 00:35:58.480
thing happens. And so we didn't
just walk into it. We didn't just

520
00:35:58.519 --> 00:36:00.199
see a car and wonder where that
came from and say, you know what,

521
00:36:00.599 --> 00:36:05.920
there must be a car manufacture somewhere
in the world here. It usually

522
00:36:06.000 --> 00:36:08.599
works the other way. Usually we
find out we know about these the people

523
00:36:08.800 --> 00:36:13.360
maybe our parents design things, or
maybe people we know, or maybe you

524
00:36:13.400 --> 00:36:15.800
know, somebody comes in to you
know, talk about a career day at

525
00:36:15.840 --> 00:36:20.320
school or something. We learn about
people that do these jobs and they make

526
00:36:20.400 --> 00:36:23.039
these things. So so we know
ahead of time about the about the people

527
00:36:23.079 --> 00:36:27.920
that are designing and From there we
can we can come to the conclusion that

528
00:36:28.000 --> 00:36:31.159
these things were designed. But that's
not necessarily the case in the universe.

529
00:36:31.159 --> 00:36:35.920
So what are some of those properties? How can we determine ahead of time

530
00:36:36.239 --> 00:36:38.360
whether or not something was designed?
What are the properties we're looking for?

531
00:36:38.599 --> 00:36:45.719
So the properties of design? There
are five quars complexity and specificity, Complexity

532
00:36:45.760 --> 00:36:50.000
and specificity, Okay? Is that
one property or is that two separate ones?

533
00:36:50.280 --> 00:36:52.639
That's okay, so I'll number them. Then that was one. So

534
00:36:52.679 --> 00:36:57.800
the first one is complexity and specificity, okay, second one is purpose,

535
00:36:58.079 --> 00:37:01.559
The second one is purpose and function, the third one is patterns and regularities,

536
00:37:02.079 --> 00:37:07.159
and the fourth one is irreducible complexity. And the fifth one is contained

537
00:37:07.239 --> 00:37:13.119
information. So if we find machines
or systems in nature that have these qualities,

538
00:37:13.239 --> 00:37:15.880
then why can't we infer they were
designed? Sorry? What was the

539
00:37:15.880 --> 00:37:17.119
fifth one? Again? Please?
And I'm just jotting these down here?

540
00:37:17.400 --> 00:37:23.039
Contains information information? I could answer
that easy. I mean, we have

541
00:37:23.199 --> 00:37:28.039
no reason to believe there's a designer
because there's no evidence of that designer,

542
00:37:28.199 --> 00:37:31.920
plain and simple. We have evidence
of how hold on, hold on,

543
00:37:31.960 --> 00:37:37.039
Annie, we let you talk.
We let you talk. Annie there's no

544
00:37:37.079 --> 00:37:42.079
evidence of a designer, and we
have plenty of evidence to show a long

545
00:37:42.159 --> 00:37:46.000
timeline of how life became so complex. It wasn't always complex. I mean,

546
00:37:46.039 --> 00:37:52.880
would your argument be applicable to the
most non complex single celled life forms

547
00:37:52.880 --> 00:37:55.559
that, well, they still exist
today, but were the only kinds of

548
00:37:55.599 --> 00:38:00.920
life form many many, many millions
or billions of years ago. Would your

549
00:38:00.000 --> 00:38:06.760
argument still be applicable then we still
would not have evidence of a creator then,

550
00:38:07.320 --> 00:38:10.199
or a designer then, Nor do
we have that evidence now. So

551
00:38:10.639 --> 00:38:15.239
again you're just guessing. You're filling
in a knowledge gap with something that sounds

552
00:38:15.280 --> 00:38:19.960
good to you. Well, let
me just point out that the question is

553
00:38:20.000 --> 00:38:23.679
not about the designer. The question
is about the natural machine or system.

554
00:38:24.199 --> 00:38:29.199
If it has qualities of design,
most or all of them, then why

555
00:38:29.239 --> 00:38:34.039
can't we infer that that machine or
system wasn't also designed? Now you're saying

556
00:38:34.320 --> 00:38:37.480
most or all? So how many
of these are required to come to the

557
00:38:37.519 --> 00:38:43.119
conclusion of design? How many out
of these five properties you gave us what

558
00:38:43.159 --> 00:38:45.199
would be the bare minimum? And
it doesn't matter, let's just stick with

559
00:38:45.280 --> 00:38:49.920
all? Oh, okay, okay, So, how can you determine a

560
00:38:49.960 --> 00:38:54.480
purpose of something? Well, we
can determine what if you said if something

561
00:38:54.519 --> 00:38:59.239
has purpose and function. If something
has purpose and functions, that was one

562
00:38:59.239 --> 00:39:01.679
of your properties. And then you
said, if we're missing any of these

563
00:39:01.679 --> 00:39:05.960
properties, then we can't conclude it
was designed. So how do you come

564
00:39:05.960 --> 00:39:08.760
to the conclusion that something has a
purpose? Okay? I did not say.

565
00:39:09.039 --> 00:39:14.320
I did not say that if something
is missing these qualities, we cannot

566
00:39:14.360 --> 00:39:16.719
conclude they are designed. I'm saying, for the sake of argument, let's

567
00:39:16.760 --> 00:39:22.199
just talk about machines that have all
of these qualities. Okay. My question

568
00:39:22.440 --> 00:39:25.840
was how many of these properties are
required? Because you're saying you're coming to

569
00:39:25.880 --> 00:39:31.480
the conclusion of design because you're being
led there by some sort of inference.

570
00:39:31.519 --> 00:39:35.920
We want to make sure that we're
satisfying the requirements for that inference. You're

571
00:39:35.920 --> 00:39:38.639
saying, if X, then designed, So we want I want to narrow

572
00:39:38.719 --> 00:39:42.840
down what is that X. So, out of these five properties, how

573
00:39:42.880 --> 00:39:47.280
many and which of them are required
for something to be designed. I'm not

574
00:39:47.679 --> 00:39:52.679
I am talking about machines that have
all of these qualities. All right,

575
00:39:52.719 --> 00:39:54.119
So let's say, well, I'm
going to do this, I'm going to

576
00:39:54.159 --> 00:39:58.079
do this, I'm going to do
this. Annie all right. So let's

577
00:39:58.119 --> 00:40:00.760
take the human heart. Okay,
we'll talk about heart, all right.

578
00:40:00.079 --> 00:40:04.280
Let's say that the heart has all
of the qualities that you just laid out,

579
00:40:04.320 --> 00:40:07.840
all right, so complexity and specificity. Sure, I would say the

580
00:40:07.840 --> 00:40:12.599
heart is complex and it specifically does
some things. Okay, purpose and function?

581
00:40:13.039 --> 00:40:16.400
Uh, that's where you kind of
lose me, right, I would

582
00:40:16.480 --> 00:40:21.280
say to Scott, you know,
or I would I would counter or build

583
00:40:21.280 --> 00:40:23.159
on what Scott had to say.
How do you determine something has a purpose?

584
00:40:23.239 --> 00:40:28.000
You know? But let's just say, for argument's sake that the go

585
00:40:28.079 --> 00:40:30.639
ahead, say go ahead, Sorry, we can determine whether or not what

586
00:40:30.679 --> 00:40:35.920
the purpose and function of a heart
is when it stopped or removed? What

587
00:40:36.000 --> 00:40:40.159
about? Okay? So so if
if the heart has all of these things,

588
00:40:40.199 --> 00:40:44.599
though, you would say that it
meets the qualifications of a machine that

589
00:40:44.840 --> 00:40:49.360
has a designer? Right? Sure? Okay, what if somebody's heart doesn't

590
00:40:49.400 --> 00:40:52.519
work? If somebody is born with
a heart and the heart does not function

591
00:40:52.800 --> 00:40:55.920
and they die, did they have
a designer? We only know that.

592
00:40:57.119 --> 00:41:00.679
We only know that the heart isn't
functioning because are supposed to function. So

593
00:41:00.719 --> 00:41:07.239
that's a nonsensical question. It's not
nonsensical. It's it's not nonsensical. It's

594
00:41:07.280 --> 00:41:13.000
not nonsensical because that would have had
a design. Like, so all of

595
00:41:13.039 --> 00:41:15.320
the hearts that work, right,
they had a designer, Okay, and

596
00:41:15.320 --> 00:41:19.599
then we have a heart that doesn't
work. What happened to that one?

597
00:41:19.920 --> 00:41:23.719
So I'm not talking about specific hearts. I'm talking about the heart as a

598
00:41:23.719 --> 00:41:30.599
as a machine. So it's the
concept heart. It's not specific hearts in

599
00:41:30.599 --> 00:41:35.840
individual people facing different challenges. The
heart as a concept, as a machine,

600
00:41:35.960 --> 00:41:38.119
it has all the qualities of design, regardless of whether or not there

601
00:41:38.119 --> 00:41:44.639
are hearts based on that concept,
based on that blueprint that don't function,

602
00:41:44.960 --> 00:41:47.920
right, But it's easy to kind
of set that boundary there. But what

603
00:41:49.000 --> 00:41:52.360
I'm saying is we have an example
here of something that you're claiming is a

604
00:41:52.400 --> 00:41:55.559
machine, but it actually doesn't meet
the criteria of a machine, right I

605
00:41:55.599 --> 00:42:00.599
am. I am of the mindset
that pard it's a broken machine. So

606
00:42:00.599 --> 00:42:04.800
it's still seen it's just a broken
machine, a machine that doesn't function,

607
00:42:05.119 --> 00:42:09.480
Okay, and then I guess it
would render its purpose absence as well.

608
00:42:09.559 --> 00:42:13.440
Right, So I mean, we
have this thing that you're claiming as a

609
00:42:13.480 --> 00:42:16.079
machine, but we can still have
it without having these properties. Right,

610
00:42:16.360 --> 00:42:22.599
So my question is, how do
you determine whether the design or designed one

611
00:42:22.679 --> 00:42:28.000
versus the other? Because the only
reason we know what a dysfunctional heart looks

612
00:42:28.039 --> 00:42:30.599
like is because we have functional hearts. So you're asking me, how do

613
00:42:30.679 --> 00:42:35.599
we know what? How do we
know that darkness is? Or sorry,

614
00:42:35.639 --> 00:42:38.599
no, no, listen, Annie, I'm just going to stick with my

615
00:42:38.679 --> 00:42:44.039
original question you are trying to I'm
talking about the heart as a contract,

616
00:42:44.079 --> 00:42:49.480
as a machine, not as individual
hearts with their own problems, systematic problems

617
00:42:49.719 --> 00:42:54.239
like things break, things are not
built correctly. We know that things break

618
00:42:54.280 --> 00:42:59.159
and are not built correctly because you
know what the heart should look like.

619
00:42:59.440 --> 00:43:01.639
We know it's and well, I
would want to be able to talk to

620
00:43:01.679 --> 00:43:05.800
the designer about that. How do
I do that? How do I figure

621
00:43:05.800 --> 00:43:07.960
out where the designer is? I
mean, you've given me these properties that

622
00:43:08.320 --> 00:43:12.280
indicate something as a machine, and
therefore, if it's a machine, it

623
00:43:12.280 --> 00:43:15.920
has a designer. Right. Initially
I told you that there was no evidence

624
00:43:15.960 --> 00:43:19.920
of a designer, right, but
your evidence is that, well, we

625
00:43:20.039 --> 00:43:23.039
have these five properties that would indicate
a designer, and I'm telling you that

626
00:43:23.199 --> 00:43:29.159
these properties are not consistent. These
properties are very imperfect. These properties don't

627
00:43:29.199 --> 00:43:34.280
always show up in these machines that
you're talking about, and therefore that's poor

628
00:43:34.320 --> 00:43:37.039
evidence of a designer. No,
no, no, I'm trying to explain

629
00:43:37.039 --> 00:43:42.519
to you that the fact that we
can talk about errors and dysfunction and brokenness

630
00:43:42.760 --> 00:43:46.360
is evident that there is a standard
of what the things we're talking about should

631
00:43:46.440 --> 00:43:51.320
operate as. So those things don't
stop being a machine. They don't stop

632
00:43:51.360 --> 00:43:55.480
being designed. They are just broken
or malfunctioning, or they weren't built properly.

633
00:43:57.239 --> 00:44:02.000
Those things are still under the category
designed machine based on the qualities they

634
00:44:02.079 --> 00:44:07.280
have. Or I think is that
how you decide whether or not they're designed?

635
00:44:07.280 --> 00:44:10.920
You assess the complexity and the specificity. You look for purpose and functionality,

636
00:44:12.280 --> 00:44:15.280
You look for patterns, irreducible complexity. You look at if it contains

637
00:44:15.320 --> 00:44:19.679
information. Is that how you tell
if something's designed? If you if you

638
00:44:19.760 --> 00:44:22.159
walk, if you were walking down
the street and you find a baseball,

639
00:44:22.400 --> 00:44:29.880
what kind of information is that containing? Well? The or are you concluding

640
00:44:29.920 --> 00:44:34.199
it was designed because you already know
about designers? I'm going to ask you

641
00:44:34.239 --> 00:44:37.440
the same question that we asked Mike
last time. How do you know God

642
00:44:37.480 --> 00:44:40.840
could have designed anything. If God
doesn't exist, God can't design shit,

643
00:44:42.039 --> 00:44:45.760
right, God can't literally and and
so so, how do you know.

644
00:44:45.360 --> 00:44:50.159
Let's let's say we don't know.
Let's say we came across this thing DNA,

645
00:44:50.599 --> 00:44:52.440
we don't know how it came about. Let's say let's let's assume,

646
00:44:52.480 --> 00:44:58.199
for example, that we've eliminated everything
we know about genetics and about biology,

647
00:44:58.599 --> 00:45:02.039
and then we have no idea how
this is happening. Why do you think

648
00:45:02.039 --> 00:45:06.639
it might be a God? Can't
that only happen if there is a God

649
00:45:06.679 --> 00:45:09.320
already? I mean, you're trying
to prove or you're trying to at least

650
00:45:09.360 --> 00:45:15.280
provide some evidence that pushes us in
the direction of that conclusion. There needs

651
00:45:15.320 --> 00:45:19.440
to be some force there to do
a push though. You can't just walk

652
00:45:19.519 --> 00:45:22.800
up to somebody and say push and
expect them to fall over. You have

653
00:45:22.840 --> 00:45:25.199
to actually do it. So where's
the connection? How does God even get

654
00:45:25.239 --> 00:45:30.840
in the picture here? If it's
in the original argument, if a machine

655
00:45:30.920 --> 00:45:37.400
has the qualities of being designed,
then the career that it was designed and

656
00:45:37.800 --> 00:45:43.519
to bring it back to the mailbox
in the Sahara desert or the baseball because

657
00:45:43.559 --> 00:45:49.519
of prior knowledge and experience that the
things that are manufactured or have elements of

658
00:45:50.039 --> 00:45:53.760
design or purpose are designed. I
can infer that the mailbox was designed.

659
00:45:54.039 --> 00:46:00.239
So if I go into nature,
what experience do I refer back to to

660
00:46:00.480 --> 00:46:07.199
suggest that it wasn't designed? Exactly? She you just answered your own question,

661
00:46:07.360 --> 00:46:10.679
and I think that that was great. So yes, a mailbox or

662
00:46:10.719 --> 00:46:15.119
a baseball, we can look at
that and we can say, yes,

663
00:46:15.199 --> 00:46:17.480
that had a designer. And you
said, but if I go into nature,

664
00:46:17.840 --> 00:46:23.000
what evidence can I refer back to
to indicate that something was designed?

665
00:46:23.039 --> 00:46:25.599
I would ask you the same thing. I would ask you the same exact

666
00:46:25.639 --> 00:46:30.440
question, What evidence can you refer
to to show that the heart or the

667
00:46:30.519 --> 00:46:36.920
human cell was designed? I say
that there is far more evidence to show

668
00:46:36.960 --> 00:46:40.760
that this is just a compilation,
a conclusion, an end result of a

669
00:46:40.840 --> 00:46:46.880
bunch of a random acts in the
natural world coalescing into what we now understand

670
00:46:46.920 --> 00:46:52.719
as organisms and their parts and nature
in general. So my question was,

671
00:46:52.800 --> 00:47:00.239
actually, we have no referential experience
or evidence that the elements of this in

672
00:47:00.360 --> 00:47:07.519
objects or machines or systems without a
designer. There is no There's nothing I

673
00:47:07.559 --> 00:47:12.159
can refer to you they have.
We have no evidence that they arrive in

674
00:47:12.239 --> 00:47:16.039
an organism. We have no evidence
whatsoever that there is any kind of creation

675
00:47:16.440 --> 00:47:22.880
or design, any planning that goes
into the development of an organism or any

676
00:47:22.920 --> 00:47:25.119
of its parts. And I'm sticking
with organisms here, right, because we

677
00:47:25.159 --> 00:47:30.559
talked about the heart, we talked
about human cells, Falies. The five

678
00:47:30.639 --> 00:47:35.400
qualities don't tell me anything. The
five qualities are your opinion on what a

679
00:47:35.440 --> 00:47:42.239
machine should be. And then you
defined aural a natural organism, right as

680
00:47:42.280 --> 00:47:45.840
a machine. That's not necessarily the
same thing. I see what you're trying

681
00:47:45.880 --> 00:47:49.400
to do, but that's not the
same thing. You're you're you're essentially strong

682
00:47:49.440 --> 00:47:54.320
manning the cell, right, But
there's more that goes into biology, and

683
00:47:54.480 --> 00:47:59.239
you can't explain it away by five
qualities that it takes to make machines.

684
00:47:59.639 --> 00:48:00.960
I want to I just want to
answert something in here. Annie. And

685
00:48:01.039 --> 00:48:05.320
and by the way, Annie,
I appreciate your call. I'm from Minnesota.

686
00:48:05.320 --> 00:48:07.880
I'm a big fan of Canada.
In fact, we often consider ourselves

687
00:48:07.880 --> 00:48:12.519
to be honorary Canadians. And so
but I want to go back to something

688
00:48:12.559 --> 00:48:15.440
that you specifically said. You said, we don't know how this could have

689
00:48:15.559 --> 00:48:21.440
arrived naturally therefore, okay, So
do you think your own ignorance, or

690
00:48:21.519 --> 00:48:25.119
our excuse me, our ignorance as
a as a conversation here, or even

691
00:48:25.199 --> 00:48:30.679
our collective ignorance as humanity. Do
you think ignorance of a process means that

692
00:48:30.679 --> 00:48:35.840
that process can't exist? So do
you think there's anything that nobody knows.

693
00:48:36.360 --> 00:48:40.320
I'm not saying that we're ignorant.
I'm saying there is no reason you said.

694
00:48:40.559 --> 00:48:44.760
You said, and I'll quote,
we don't know how this could have

695
00:48:44.880 --> 00:48:49.480
happened. Therefore, okay, we
don't know. That's ignorance. That's what

696
00:48:49.480 --> 00:48:52.840
we're talking about. You did say
ignorance. You said, we don't know

697
00:48:52.880 --> 00:48:57.199
how this could have happened naturally,
therefore it must have been supernatural. That's

698
00:48:57.239 --> 00:49:00.639
what you said. I'm saying.
I did not say that. I said

699
00:49:00.679 --> 00:49:07.480
that there is no referential experience or
knowledge that can inform whether or not something

700
00:49:07.639 --> 00:49:12.039
was designed, that can inform whether
or not machines are systems with the quality

701
00:49:12.079 --> 00:49:15.480
of designs do not have a designer. There's no way, so there's no

702
00:49:15.599 --> 00:49:19.159
knowledge that can infer this. That's
way different than saying we don't know.

703
00:49:19.440 --> 00:49:22.000
That's exactly what I said. So
you misunderstood what I said. I know

704
00:49:22.159 --> 00:49:25.239
those mean the same thing. If
you say there's no knowledge of X,

705
00:49:25.639 --> 00:49:30.840
and I say we don't know X, that's mean you're saying the same thing.

706
00:49:30.880 --> 00:49:34.679
We're saying the same thing. You're
we're talking about ignorance. There is

707
00:49:34.800 --> 00:49:38.559
no knowledge of these things. Therefore
these things can't exist you're talking about you're

708
00:49:38.599 --> 00:49:43.480
making an argument. You're literally making
an argument from ignorance. So, from

709
00:49:43.639 --> 00:49:49.159
my perspective, there is if a
natural machine or system has element, has

710
00:49:49.199 --> 00:49:52.719
all the qualities of design, then
it was designed. I don't have to

711
00:49:52.440 --> 00:49:55.960
there are millions of ways that could
have been designed. Oh that's that is

712
00:49:57.000 --> 00:50:01.360
a big leap. It was the
multiple I please such my point. Okay,

713
00:50:01.400 --> 00:50:05.719
so if all of the systems have
qualities of design, then that it

714
00:50:05.800 --> 00:50:12.440
was designed. Go ahead if I
And so, what I infer from machines

715
00:50:12.719 --> 00:50:15.960
and systems that have the qualities of
design is that they're designed. There are

716
00:50:16.280 --> 00:50:20.719
perhaps there are a million ways they
could have been designed. But from the

717
00:50:20.760 --> 00:50:24.320
evidence, I conclude it was at
least designed. You, on the other

718
00:50:24.360 --> 00:50:30.719
hand, want to leave room for
the possibility that it wasn't designed. There

719
00:50:30.800 --> 00:50:34.760
is no reason to leave that room. And yes, there is. Yes,

720
00:50:34.800 --> 00:50:37.000
there is, Yes, there is, and we should infer that it

721
00:50:37.119 --> 00:50:43.519
was designed. That's how because you're
taking these qualities. I don't even know

722
00:50:43.559 --> 00:50:46.679
where you got them from, right, But you're taking these qualities and you're

723
00:50:46.719 --> 00:50:52.000
saying, these are my standards and
these systems in the human body. Let's

724
00:50:52.000 --> 00:50:57.320
say meet these standards. Therefore there
was a designer. And I'm saying,

725
00:50:57.400 --> 00:51:00.800
hey, how do we know that
those standards even define what it means to

726
00:51:00.840 --> 00:51:05.480
be designed? Number one? Number
two? Where is the designer? What

727
00:51:05.880 --> 00:51:10.519
designer are you talking about? You
are just making up some inference here,

728
00:51:10.840 --> 00:51:16.119
right, and then you are assuming
the conclusion without supporting it with any evidence.

729
00:51:16.400 --> 00:51:22.239
You know, how do you tie
a god or tie a designer to

730
00:51:22.360 --> 00:51:25.280
what you are saying? How what
evidence of me if they were to cut

731
00:51:25.280 --> 00:51:30.239
my body open, would make a
doctor or a scientist say, aha,

732
00:51:30.559 --> 00:51:36.599
he was designed by a designer?
Right? What evidence is there? So

733
00:51:36.719 --> 00:51:39.440
I have irreducible complexity, I have
function, I have purpose, I have

734
00:51:39.480 --> 00:51:45.239
patterns and regularities and specificity. What
am I specific to? What's the specificity

735
00:51:45.239 --> 00:51:50.440
of me? Reproduction? Okay,
so I can reproduce. So I have

736
00:51:50.519 --> 00:51:55.679
one of the qualities that indicates I
was designed. Okay, Annie, you

737
00:51:57.280 --> 00:52:00.679
are just confirming something that I was
saying earlier. I said that I asked

738
00:52:00.719 --> 00:52:05.880
you if these things were required for
there to be for there to be designed,

739
00:52:05.960 --> 00:52:07.800
and you said, no, we're
just talking about things that happen to

740
00:52:07.800 --> 00:52:13.400
have these five these five things.
But then now you're saying that the existence

741
00:52:13.480 --> 00:52:17.280
of these five properties in a thing
entails a designer. Okay. So what

742
00:52:17.320 --> 00:52:22.320
that means is that if these things
are here, you know there must be

743
00:52:22.400 --> 00:52:24.840
a designer. Okay. So that's
the connection you must be must make.

744
00:52:24.880 --> 00:52:28.760
But I would even take it even
further than that. What if we were

745
00:52:28.800 --> 00:52:31.199
to grant you Okay, I don't
think you've you've made your case for a

746
00:52:31.239 --> 00:52:37.039
designer by any stretch of the imagination. I think appeals to ignorance and appeals

747
00:52:37.079 --> 00:52:40.119
to authority and that and that kind
of thing. I think that that totally

748
00:52:40.239 --> 00:52:44.920
undermines your your entire case here.
But let's assume. Let's assume that you

749
00:52:45.039 --> 00:52:50.719
made the case that DNA was designed. Okay, take me to God.

750
00:52:50.800 --> 00:52:55.000
Now from that, DNA has all
of the qualities of design. So if

751
00:52:55.119 --> 00:53:00.039
if we're granting, if we're granting
that DNA was designed for the sake of

752
00:53:00.159 --> 00:53:02.079
argument. Now take us those last
few steps. How do you get from

753
00:53:02.079 --> 00:53:07.719
there to God? Well? I
didn't call in to take maybe I did,

754
00:53:07.079 --> 00:53:12.480
but I say that first any any
you let me let me fill in

755
00:53:12.599 --> 00:53:15.679
your silence for a second. Maybe
no, no, no, let me

756
00:53:15.679 --> 00:53:19.960
answer the question. I have the
answer because the word has element has as

757
00:53:20.000 --> 00:53:22.599
awed. The qualities are designed,
and I infer that it was designed so

758
00:53:23.119 --> 00:53:29.599
that person that saying that designed the
universe would be God. That's how.

759
00:53:29.800 --> 00:53:34.719
Now that's how. Okay, designer
to God. So you have two burdens

760
00:53:34.719 --> 00:53:37.280
of proof to meet, now,
okay. Uh. One, that all

761
00:53:37.320 --> 00:53:43.159
of the all of the design qualities
are in fact design qualities. Okay,

762
00:53:43.199 --> 00:53:46.400
So you need to prove that those
are, uh you know, without without

763
00:53:46.440 --> 00:53:51.159
being able to be overturned the qualities
of design. Number one, okay.

764
00:53:51.280 --> 00:53:53.360
And then number two. You took
a huge leap, which is exactly what

765
00:53:53.400 --> 00:53:58.000
Scott was talking about. You said, therefore that designer is God. Well,

766
00:53:58.239 --> 00:54:00.679
if you can prove the first premise, you still have to prove the

767
00:54:00.719 --> 00:54:05.400
second one. And we haven't arrived
there. So you know, you you

768
00:54:05.440 --> 00:54:08.639
say that something has these qualities,
which I don't think that there's any consensus

769
00:54:08.639 --> 00:54:13.599
on I'm not sure. Maybe,
But even so, even so that let's

770
00:54:13.599 --> 00:54:17.639
say design across the world of scholarship, of science, of medicine, even

771
00:54:17.840 --> 00:54:22.599
let's say all things that were designed
have in common the qualities that you listed,

772
00:54:22.679 --> 00:54:25.599
how do we know God, your
God specifically is the designer. I

773
00:54:25.599 --> 00:54:30.519
didn't come with a god and specific
If you just said that the qualities,

774
00:54:31.119 --> 00:54:35.719
I didn't come with a specific God. So I would call whoever designed the

775
00:54:35.800 --> 00:54:39.079
universe God, whoever or whatever?
Right are you are you? Assuming it's

776
00:54:39.079 --> 00:54:44.400
a who are you? That's a
leap too. You're going from the universe

777
00:54:44.559 --> 00:54:49.239
was designed to a who designed it? Right? So how do you even

778
00:54:49.280 --> 00:54:52.320
make that leap? Yeah, matter
who or what, It doesn't matter who

779
00:54:52.480 --> 00:54:57.679
or what. So you're you're saying
the universe was designed and whatever was the

780
00:54:57.719 --> 00:55:00.159
cause of that design. That's what
we're going to call God. Is that

781
00:55:00.199 --> 00:55:04.239
what you're saying? Exactly? So
when you when you call into the atheist

782
00:55:04.280 --> 00:55:07.559
community of Austin, do you think
that's what we mean when we say we're

783
00:55:07.599 --> 00:55:10.599
atheists, we think do you think
that we don't think that the universe exists?

784
00:55:10.639 --> 00:55:16.079
Or do you think that we're trying
to deny the existence of some existent,

785
00:55:16.159 --> 00:55:20.400
You're some kind of power or some
kind of thing out there that did

786
00:55:20.519 --> 00:55:22.760
or do you think we're talking about
a person? I think when I seek

787
00:55:22.800 --> 00:55:27.679
to atheists, they all say they
they lack a belief in all God or

788
00:55:27.719 --> 00:55:30.039
gods, so it wouldn't not.
And when they say that, do you

789
00:55:30.039 --> 00:55:34.880
think they mean you can define the
word God to be anything you want.

790
00:55:34.960 --> 00:55:37.719
And then well, I guess we
I guess we have to deny, you

791
00:55:37.800 --> 00:55:40.119
know, not believe its existence.
If I said God is this pencil,

792
00:55:40.239 --> 00:55:44.239
then I'm a theist. If I
say God is not that pencil, then

793
00:55:44.239 --> 00:55:46.360
I'm not so when when so,
do you think that when you when when

794
00:55:46.400 --> 00:55:51.039
you're making these kind of implications,
do you think you're trying to sneak in

795
00:55:51.079 --> 00:55:52.679
your your your definition here. I
don't know what it could have caused,

796
00:55:52.679 --> 00:55:57.840
but whoever it was, we're going
to call that God. Do you think

797
00:55:57.840 --> 00:56:00.159
that that's a convincing argument that we're
going to that we're going to fall for

798
00:56:00.199 --> 00:56:05.239
that. I didn't call in to
make a defense for God, only that

799
00:56:05.840 --> 00:56:10.199
the evidence of design and the universe
suggests that it was designed. You are,

800
00:56:10.280 --> 00:56:13.960
yeah, but at whatever it is, are you willing to get to

801
00:56:14.000 --> 00:56:17.800
the point of accepting that. Oh, I don't accept your standards. I

802
00:56:17.840 --> 00:56:22.679
don't accept I just ca yeah,
I don't accept your standards, your five

803
00:56:22.800 --> 00:56:28.679
qualities that define something as a machine. I don't understand the human body or

804
00:56:28.679 --> 00:56:30.199
the human heart to be a machine
in the way that you designed it,

805
00:56:30.800 --> 00:56:35.119
excuse me, and the way that
you described it, and I don't Well,

806
00:56:36.320 --> 00:56:38.000
but if you're prepared to talk about
design, then you should have your

807
00:56:38.039 --> 00:56:45.360
own standard of what needs the Why
why do I need to have my own

808
00:56:45.559 --> 00:56:50.800
standards of design. I am not
out here building washing machines, or microwaves

809
00:56:50.960 --> 00:56:53.800
or human hearts. Okay, I
am simply saying that I am here to

810
00:56:53.880 --> 00:57:00.360
discuss the existence of a proposed God
or deity or higher power, and I

811
00:57:00.400 --> 00:57:05.440
am willing to hear people's evidence for
that. What you called in to do

812
00:57:05.800 --> 00:57:09.280
is say that you think the human
body, the universe, the human cell,

813
00:57:09.400 --> 00:57:15.920
the animal cells are designed by something. And you started calling it God,

814
00:57:15.159 --> 00:57:20.599
and God is excuse me, God
is from for all intents and purposes,

815
00:57:20.639 --> 00:57:22.840
a deity. You know, the
way that we have come to understand

816
00:57:22.920 --> 00:57:25.960
God is the way that God has
been defined over ten thousand years. But

817
00:57:27.360 --> 00:57:29.920
you know, then you turned around
at the end and said, I don't

818
00:57:29.920 --> 00:57:31.159
know what God is. I'm just
calling it this thing that I don't know

819
00:57:31.159 --> 00:57:36.119
how to define. How do I
defend that? I mean, you're just

820
00:57:36.320 --> 00:57:38.159
coming up with some concept that says, DAD, don't really know what it

821
00:57:38.199 --> 00:57:40.000
is, so I'm just going to
call it God? Okay? Cool?

822
00:57:40.079 --> 00:57:43.280
I mean I don't have to call
it God. I don't have to call

823
00:57:43.320 --> 00:57:45.239
it God. And I certainly don't
have to walk around with my own standards

824
00:57:45.239 --> 00:57:51.280
of evidence. I mean I have
I have philosophies on how you should treat

825
00:57:51.320 --> 00:57:55.199
people. Does that mean that you
have to have your own philosophies on how

826
00:57:55.199 --> 00:57:59.440
to treat people if you don't agree
with mine. Yes. If I'm going

827
00:57:59.480 --> 00:58:01.679
to say your blocracy is wrong,
than I should have a standard of kase.

828
00:58:01.800 --> 00:58:05.760
No, well I disagree, we
don't. I don't have to walk

829
00:58:05.800 --> 00:58:10.159
around being prepared to talk about a
designer just because you want to. Does

830
00:58:10.199 --> 00:58:15.079
it mean that because I don't accept
your claim, that I have to have

831
00:58:15.119 --> 00:58:17.119
a claim of my own. There
are so many claims I don't accept.

832
00:58:17.199 --> 00:58:21.920
I don't accept that Cain killed Abel. I don't have to have some other

833
00:58:22.000 --> 00:58:24.079
story in its place that makes more
sense to me. I don't accept that

834
00:58:24.159 --> 00:58:29.920
God created the universe, and I
do not have to have some other explanation.

835
00:58:30.199 --> 00:58:32.679
I just am saying, as an
atheist, the explanation being presented to

836
00:58:32.719 --> 00:58:37.920
me is not one that I accept
because of a lack of evidence, because

837
00:58:37.960 --> 00:58:42.960
it's not been corroborated across across multiple
fields by experts in those fields, you

838
00:58:42.960 --> 00:58:49.760
know, unlike evolution, which I
accept to be true because biologists, genealogists,

839
00:58:50.159 --> 00:58:55.280
geologists, physicists all can relatively agree
on the processes that have taken place

840
00:58:55.679 --> 00:59:00.079
over long periods of times. That
those people come from different walks of life,

841
00:59:00.519 --> 00:59:05.039
different cultures. You know this.
There is some consensus there. What

842
00:59:05.159 --> 00:59:08.039
you're saying doesn't make sense to me. And I respect you, and I

843
00:59:08.079 --> 00:59:12.400
appreciate that you called. But I
don't have to agree with you. And

844
00:59:12.480 --> 00:59:15.239
if I don't agree with you,
I don't have to match your uh,

845
00:59:15.559 --> 00:59:20.679
your presupposition with one that makes more
sense. I just want to slip in

846
00:59:20.760 --> 00:59:24.199
here, Annie, let's I want
to list out specifically where where I think

847
00:59:24.280 --> 00:59:28.639
your your argument is failing. Here. You gave us these five properties,

848
00:59:29.000 --> 00:59:31.960
okay, but you didn't justify your
inference that you made with them. You

849
00:59:32.000 --> 00:59:36.159
said, if they have these things, these five things, then it was

850
00:59:36.239 --> 00:59:38.760
designed. Okay. So that's something
that you failed to do, and that

851
00:59:38.760 --> 00:59:42.400
that you would need to do if
you if you wanted to make a solid

852
00:59:42.440 --> 00:59:46.039
case. Second thing, you did
not show that the universe or the DNA

853
00:59:46.239 --> 00:59:50.599
or what or the mailbox or whatever. You did not were not able to

854
00:59:50.760 --> 00:59:54.960
justify that these five these five properties
existed in the universe or DNA or whatever

855
00:59:54.960 --> 00:59:58.039
it is you happen to be talking
about. So first of all, you

856
00:59:58.079 --> 01:00:01.079
need to establish that that inference is
valid, that if these things, if

857
01:00:01.079 --> 01:00:06.440
something does have these properties, then
it is in fact designed. Okay,

858
01:00:06.480 --> 01:00:07.559
So you need to show that.
Then you need to show the thing you're

859
01:00:07.559 --> 01:00:10.280
trying to show is designed. You
need to show that it has those five

860
01:00:10.320 --> 01:00:15.159
properties. I think purpose in particular
would be would be very difficult to justify

861
01:00:15.239 --> 01:00:20.320
or very very difficult to back up. And then once even beyond that,

862
01:00:20.760 --> 01:00:24.000
you still have a big jump between
figuring out what that purpose or what that

863
01:00:24.079 --> 01:00:29.000
designer is, or how the design
process works. I mean, there's just

864
01:00:29.079 --> 01:00:32.039
so many holes here I can understand. You know, it sounds like it's

865
01:00:32.119 --> 01:00:36.639
very important to you. It sounds
like you're you're very interested. You've clearly

866
01:00:36.679 --> 01:00:40.480
done some reading on this, and
I appreciate the fact that you at least

867
01:00:40.480 --> 01:00:45.519
seem to me to want to come
up with a with a good conclusion.

868
01:00:45.280 --> 01:00:50.360
But I just see too many holes
in what you're talking about here. Can

869
01:00:50.400 --> 01:00:54.239
you Can you at least understand why
we're having trouble accepting your conclusion, even

870
01:00:54.280 --> 01:00:58.880
if you disagree with us, even
if you think we're being unreasonable. Can

871
01:00:58.920 --> 01:01:00.960
you at least see what I'm talking
talking about? Yes, but yes,

872
01:01:01.039 --> 01:01:06.920
I can't understand why you're having trouble
understanding my arguments. But it's mostly because

873
01:01:06.960 --> 01:01:09.199
when I make my arguments, they're
not addressed. You sip to something else,

874
01:01:09.320 --> 01:01:15.639
and then we're in this tumbleweed of
like almost irrelevancy. I disagree we've

875
01:01:15.679 --> 01:01:22.320
addressed everything that you've talked about.
I was accused of inferring that God is

876
01:01:22.400 --> 01:01:25.159
the creator of the universe, But
you're the one who asked me. I

877
01:01:25.239 --> 01:01:31.760
was perfectly okay with just assuming that
natural systems and machines are designed. It

878
01:01:31.760 --> 01:01:35.599
doesn't matter who the designer was.
I was willing to. I wanted to

879
01:01:35.599 --> 01:01:40.000
see whether or not you could.
You are saying who you are saying who

880
01:01:40.039 --> 01:01:45.920
designed it? And you said I
will call the designer God, you said

881
01:01:45.960 --> 01:01:50.280
those things. We're not accusing you
of things. We're addressing the things that

882
01:01:50.320 --> 01:01:52.559
you're bringing to the table, right, We're just following you here. Okay,

883
01:01:52.599 --> 01:01:55.360
Well, I'm okay. People are
going to be able to watch this

884
01:01:55.519 --> 01:01:59.400
back and see that you're the one
who brought up God. I was okay

885
01:01:59.440 --> 01:02:04.280
with staying with the standard of objects
that have evidence of being designed are designed.

886
01:02:04.440 --> 01:02:07.239
They don't have to be designed by
God. They don't have to be

887
01:02:07.239 --> 01:02:13.039
designed by the multiverse or from aliens
that came and did whatever experiments they wanted

888
01:02:13.079 --> 01:02:16.239
to. But are you able to
at least acknowledge that it is reasonable to

889
01:02:16.320 --> 01:02:22.840
infer that systems and machines that have
elements of design, all of them,

890
01:02:22.960 --> 01:02:27.199
all of the ones that I listed, it's it's perfectly reasonable to suggest they

891
01:02:27.199 --> 01:02:30.480
were designed. By calling them elements
of design, you're presuming your conclusion.

892
01:02:30.559 --> 01:02:34.239
Right, So let's let's so let's
set that we don't we don't want to

893
01:02:34.280 --> 01:02:36.840
be you know, we don't want
to we don't want to beg the question

894
01:02:36.920 --> 01:02:39.599
here. So if by calling them
elements of design, you're you're kind of

895
01:02:39.760 --> 01:02:45.199
you're you're you're jumping over that first
hurdle that I mentioned before, and we

896
01:02:45.239 --> 01:02:49.159
want to know if we have these
If we have these properties, how can

897
01:02:49.199 --> 01:02:52.599
you come to the conclusion that there
was a designer? All right, and

898
01:02:52.679 --> 01:02:55.039
you are off mute, now go
ahead. Well I was, I would

899
01:02:55.280 --> 01:03:00.239
there's no point in me giving my
explanation if I don't have any thing,

900
01:03:00.960 --> 01:03:04.039
I don't have common ground with you. Well, there's a there's a per

901
01:03:04.119 --> 01:03:07.599
there is a reason, and that
is that I want to understand your argument.

902
01:03:07.639 --> 01:03:09.800
Do you want us to understand your
argument? I do? Do you?

903
01:03:09.880 --> 01:03:13.920
Okay? Good, me too.
We have a common goal right there.

904
01:03:14.079 --> 01:03:15.960
Let's call that our number one goal
for this call here. We want

905
01:03:16.000 --> 01:03:20.119
to understand what Annie is saying.
So we have a toget. We have

906
01:03:20.159 --> 01:03:22.880
a goal together that we can that
we can work towards. So please help

907
01:03:22.880 --> 01:03:29.639
me understand of those five properties that
you listed, why do they imply a

908
01:03:29.679 --> 01:03:32.719
designer? Because we see them in
the qualities of things that are designed.

909
01:03:34.119 --> 01:03:37.519
That doesn't mean that they're necessary.
That doesn't mean that they're sufficient. Okay.

910
01:03:37.599 --> 01:03:40.159
Just because it's just because you see
white swans all over the place does

911
01:03:40.199 --> 01:03:45.199
not mean that there's no black swans. Okay, So you're you're you're using

912
01:03:45.239 --> 01:03:47.840
a fallacy there using a fallacious argument
by saying, well, we see these

913
01:03:47.840 --> 01:03:52.679
other things are that we know they're
designed not because of their properties, but

914
01:03:52.760 --> 01:03:55.159
because we know of the designer.
We see that they have these properties,

915
01:03:55.400 --> 01:04:00.639
but those but they're but mailboxes are
also blue. Does that mean that all

916
01:04:00.639 --> 01:04:03.159
blue things must be made in a
mailbox factory? I don't think that you

917
01:04:03.159 --> 01:04:06.719
would agree with that. And so
what we're saying is we want you to

918
01:04:08.079 --> 01:04:11.320
We don't want if you're gonna if
you're going to prove something by example,

919
01:04:11.360 --> 01:04:14.199
you have to be exhaustive. I'm
a math teacher. I deal with this

920
01:04:14.280 --> 01:04:17.079
all the time. You can't just
give one example of something that that makes

921
01:04:17.119 --> 01:04:21.840
an implication and say it's true for
for everything. That's that's an improper generalization.

922
01:04:23.239 --> 01:04:27.920
You're you're you're assigning things to a
general category of things based off of

923
01:04:27.960 --> 01:04:30.119
your one example. What I'm saying
is, if you want to prove that

924
01:04:30.159 --> 01:04:34.440
this is the case any if you
want to show that anytime we see these

925
01:04:34.480 --> 01:04:39.760
five things, that we can infer
that there is a designer, you need

926
01:04:39.800 --> 01:04:42.719
to back that up. You need
to show your work. You need to

927
01:04:42.760 --> 01:04:47.440
demonstrate how can we make that inference
from those five pieces of information, and

928
01:04:47.480 --> 01:04:51.719
it's and and and I'll remind you
that just giving me we've done it before,

929
01:04:53.159 --> 01:04:55.719
that's not going to fly. That
doesn't work that way. Okay,

930
01:04:55.719 --> 01:04:59.360
you need to show that it's true
even for things that we haven't done before,

931
01:04:59.679 --> 01:05:01.800
even things that we can't even think
of, even things that we've never

932
01:05:01.840 --> 01:05:08.159
even heard of. So why do
those five properties imply a designer? I

933
01:05:08.199 --> 01:05:12.360
think that it is not fair that
I have to meet such a high standard

934
01:05:12.400 --> 01:05:15.199
when you don't have to meet any
standard at all. If you've made the

935
01:05:15.239 --> 01:05:18.400
claim at the conclusion that these if
you're going to arrive at the conclusion that

936
01:05:18.440 --> 01:05:25.480
biological machines and systems were arose naturally, then you have to why can't you

937
01:05:25.920 --> 01:05:28.880
Why don't you I didn't say that, I didn't claim that, Jimmy,

938
01:05:28.880 --> 01:05:31.119
did you claim that I did it? But you know what, you did

939
01:05:31.239 --> 01:05:35.320
so much work to come up with
these five properties. Why don't you put

940
01:05:35.320 --> 01:05:41.599
the same dedication into understanding how life
came about on our planet and how everybody,

941
01:05:41.960 --> 01:05:44.719
Uh well, I shouldn't say everybody. That is a sweeping generalization,

942
01:05:44.800 --> 01:05:47.960
but how many scholars on the subject, on various subjects that have to do

943
01:05:48.039 --> 01:05:53.039
with the life sciences agree on them, and why don't you go down that

944
01:05:53.199 --> 01:05:58.280
road? And I don't think that
us asking you to justify your premises is

945
01:05:58.639 --> 01:06:03.119
setting the bar to We're not giving
you such a high standard of evidence.

946
01:06:03.480 --> 01:06:08.639
We're asking you to back up what
you're saying. Hey, so the standard

947
01:06:08.639 --> 01:06:12.239
of evidence that something is designed would
be evidence that it is designed. So

948
01:06:12.280 --> 01:06:15.480
what would those evidences be in your
opinion? There? You're assuming that these

949
01:06:15.480 --> 01:06:18.480
are problem, that these are evidence
of design. What I'm saying is,

950
01:06:18.960 --> 01:06:24.119
how do you know these are evidence
of design? And I'm asking your opinion

951
01:06:24.239 --> 01:06:29.599
of what evidence of a designed of
a designed machine would look like. How

952
01:06:29.639 --> 01:06:33.360
would we be able to tell the
difference of between a machine that was designed

953
01:06:33.599 --> 01:06:38.880
and occur naturally. I would say
there might be might be multiple ways,

954
01:06:38.880 --> 01:06:42.719
but the one that immediately comes to
mind is if the designer walks up to

955
01:06:42.760 --> 01:06:45.119
me, shakes my hand and says, hey, I designed that thing,

956
01:06:45.280 --> 01:06:49.559
and here's how I did it.
And that's where we're talking about the argument

957
01:06:49.840 --> 01:06:54.559
from ignorance, the big leap that
you're not making. You can you can

958
01:06:54.639 --> 01:07:00.400
be correct about these things in nature
having characteristics that are in common with things

959
01:07:00.440 --> 01:07:04.159
that we know to be designed.
But you're talking about coincidence at best.

960
01:07:05.039 --> 01:07:09.559
What you're not doing is providing us
the designer. And you can call it

961
01:07:09.599 --> 01:07:13.000
God or not God or whatever you
want. But in the end, you

962
01:07:13.039 --> 01:07:15.360
know, you called an atheist show
where we tell people to call in with

963
01:07:15.880 --> 01:07:19.400
their beliefs and what they believe and
why. And you know, typically the

964
01:07:19.480 --> 01:07:24.920
designer is associated with God. And
you said that you would call the designer

965
01:07:24.960 --> 01:07:29.280
God, but you haven't. You
haven't presented any proof of that, and

966
01:07:29.360 --> 01:07:31.239
so you know, that's kind of
where we're stuck. It's fine, you

967
01:07:31.280 --> 01:07:34.199
know, I could say, Hey, we design things all the time that

968
01:07:34.320 --> 01:07:38.719
have the number four in them.
Right, there's four legs to a table,

969
01:07:38.760 --> 01:07:41.719
there's four walls to a house,
and oh, these humans have four

970
01:07:41.760 --> 01:07:45.360
appendages. Wow, that's probably designed. I just made up my own standard

971
01:07:45.440 --> 01:07:48.920
of design. But now I have
to provide the designer and that's just something

972
01:07:48.960 --> 01:07:53.119
I can't do. And that's something
that you haven't done. And Annie,

973
01:07:53.119 --> 01:07:57.880
I say that respectfully because I really
appreciate your call. I appreciate all your

974
01:07:57.920 --> 01:08:00.920
calls. Actually, I'm actually a
big fan of your UH. You've called

975
01:08:00.960 --> 01:08:03.679
truth wanted before. I think you've
called uh, you know multiple times I've

976
01:08:03.679 --> 01:08:08.039
heard your calls, and I appreciate
that you continue to call, and I

977
01:08:08.119 --> 01:08:11.760
encourage you to keep calling in you
haven't swayed myself for Scott one way or

978
01:08:11.800 --> 01:08:15.719
the other. You know, maybe
you'll you'll watch this back and see where

979
01:08:15.719 --> 01:08:17.439
we're coming from, but we're gonna
have to let you go. So I

980
01:08:17.439 --> 01:08:21.479
appreciate your time, Scott. That
was uh, that was great. Yeah,

981
01:08:21.520 --> 01:08:25.479
I like it. I like Anie
a lot. And yeah, she's

982
01:08:25.520 --> 01:08:30.920
she's animated as we both can be. So I really enjoyed it because it

983
01:08:30.159 --> 01:08:34.039
perfectly illustrated what I was talking about
in the opening about making that we're not

984
01:08:34.319 --> 01:08:40.159
the bar that we're setting is like
laying the bar on the ground that that's

985
01:08:40.199 --> 01:08:42.880
our standard of evidence. We're just
saying, if you want to make a

986
01:08:42.960 --> 01:08:45.880
claim, back it up somehow,
okay. And and and make that connection

987
01:08:46.119 --> 01:08:50.640
if if if she's going to say
that these things imply this, okay,

988
01:08:50.840 --> 01:08:54.880
why do you know that? How
do you know that we are also not

989
01:08:55.000 --> 01:08:59.039
responsible for for replacing her claim with
our own person. I mean, that

990
01:08:59.159 --> 01:09:01.960
was a huge mistake. That is
a fallacy if I've ever heard one.

991
01:09:02.640 --> 01:09:08.039
I have no responsibility to give you
something in place of your own thing,

992
01:09:08.479 --> 01:09:11.439
you know. So anyway, there's
nothing wrong with saying I don't know,

993
01:09:11.760 --> 01:09:15.680
that's right, that's right, And
I could say that with pride because there's

994
01:09:15.680 --> 01:09:18.239
a lot I don't know. But
that's why I want to take these calls

995
01:09:18.239 --> 01:09:20.439
and I have these discussions. You
know, Scott, we're a little behind.

996
01:09:20.520 --> 01:09:25.359
We have there. We've been neglectful
here of super chats that we got

997
01:09:25.359 --> 01:09:28.199
to get to. So if you'll
do the honors, you can go back

998
01:09:28.239 --> 01:09:30.159
and check out. Yeah, so
drook them back. We have. We

999
01:09:30.239 --> 01:09:33.399
have a few super chats here.
We got one from Nika, a new

1000
01:09:33.439 --> 01:09:38.640
member, gave two dollars, says, has Mike ever shuffled a deck of

1001
01:09:38.760 --> 01:09:43.479
cards? Has Mike evil scheffer your
deck of cards? So yeah, so

1002
01:09:43.479 --> 01:09:45.640
so that was back when we were
talking about rare events happening all the time,

1003
01:09:45.720 --> 01:09:48.640
right, So anytime you shuffle a
deck of cards, that's probably the

1004
01:09:48.680 --> 01:09:54.199
first time that deck has ever been
shuffled that way. Next up, we

1005
01:09:54.319 --> 01:09:58.600
have another super chat from Nika,
who is still a new member. Although

1006
01:09:58.640 --> 01:10:01.479
I think once you send in your
first super chat, I think you qualify

1007
01:10:01.600 --> 01:10:04.800
it. You know, you kind
of you're you're you've broken the seal on

1008
01:10:04.840 --> 01:10:10.840
that new member classification there, Nika
said, with another two dollars donation,

1009
01:10:11.399 --> 01:10:15.680
shuffled cards equals fifty two factorial,
which is about e times ten to this,

1010
01:10:15.000 --> 01:10:20.000
So uh an eight with sixty seven
zeros and saying, boy, that

1011
01:10:20.079 --> 01:10:24.119
seems impossible. Yeah, so every
time you shuffle a deck of cards,

1012
01:10:24.520 --> 01:10:29.079
you are doing something that is vanishingly
unlikely. Let's see what else do we

1013
01:10:29.159 --> 01:10:32.760
got super chats here? We have
another one here from from common super chatter

1014
01:10:32.920 --> 01:10:38.039
Miranda Rensberger. Remember two months now
five dollars donation. Uh. Don't you

1015
01:10:38.079 --> 01:10:42.640
guys know that my medical degree from
the University of Facebook proves God. As

1016
01:10:42.680 --> 01:10:45.760
long as you stick to my script, I think that was the key there.

1017
01:10:45.800 --> 01:10:48.920
As long as we stick to that
script, I think that brings us

1018
01:10:49.000 --> 01:10:51.560
up to date on the super chats
there. I didn't see it, it

1019
01:10:51.680 --> 01:10:56.520
does. But you know, we
have somebody, some great people that we

1020
01:10:56.600 --> 01:10:59.760
have to mention and those are our
top five patrons. Oh definitely yeah.

1021
01:10:59.800 --> 01:11:03.319
So you know Scott again co hosting
the honors for this one, brother,

1022
01:11:03.439 --> 01:11:10.000
I certainly will. Okay, So
our top five patrons dingle Berry Jackson number

1023
01:11:10.000 --> 01:11:15.479
one there oops, all Singularity de
voor Valgean. We have Coleevi, Helvetti

1024
01:11:15.840 --> 01:11:19.239
and number five is left in the
leaves, and we're going to give an

1025
01:11:19.239 --> 01:11:27.239
honorable mention for Frikin Hany Frikan Hany
and ologize for butchering any of those names.

1026
01:11:27.239 --> 01:11:30.119
But hey, I did my best. I'm not sorry. It's part

1027
01:11:30.159 --> 01:11:33.119
of the heritage of reading the top
five patrons that you're expected to butcher names,

1028
01:11:33.159 --> 01:11:38.000
and quite frankly, you should give
your own interpretation of those names from

1029
01:11:38.039 --> 01:11:41.880
time to time. Okay, I'll
remember that for next time. So yeah,

1030
01:11:41.920 --> 01:11:45.960
thank you to our patrons, everybody
that donates and supports the ACA.

1031
01:11:46.079 --> 01:11:49.119
For those of you who are not
aware, you know you can get on

1032
01:11:49.199 --> 01:11:54.600
Patreon. There is there is other
content that is not available to other members

1033
01:11:54.600 --> 01:11:58.239
that is specifically available to you,
so go check it out. But what

1034
01:11:58.359 --> 01:12:00.520
I want to highlight is the bat
Cruise, Fun, Fun, Fun,

1035
01:12:00.920 --> 01:12:06.960
the wholemark event of the ACA.
I will be there other hosts Forrest Valci,

1036
01:12:08.079 --> 01:12:12.359
j, Mike Secularity, Scott can
I say, Scott Dicky you can

1037
01:12:12.399 --> 01:12:14.600
certainly add me to that list.
I'm looking forward to it. I had

1038
01:12:14.640 --> 01:12:16.800
a blast last year and yeah,
I'm looking forward to it again this year.

1039
01:12:16.920 --> 01:12:19.960
We got to spend some more time
together actually, and I'm hoping that

1040
01:12:20.039 --> 01:12:23.960
I get to spend a lot of
more time with the nonprofits because I have

1041
01:12:24.039 --> 01:12:28.119
really, you know, developed relationships
with quite a few of you, and

1042
01:12:28.960 --> 01:12:30.600
I love the nonprofits. I love
all you guys. I love working with

1043
01:12:30.640 --> 01:12:33.399
you. But yeah, our back
cruise is going to be on August twenty

1044
01:12:33.439 --> 01:12:39.079
fourth, so a lot of the
ACA hosts and other team members are going

1045
01:12:39.119 --> 01:12:42.119
to be in attendance, So get
more information buy your tickets at tiny dot

1046
01:12:42.159 --> 01:12:46.039
CC forward slash bat Cruise. And
while you're there, just check out our

1047
01:12:46.640 --> 01:12:50.479
new updated website. Let us know
what you liked what you didn't like.

1048
01:12:51.159 --> 01:12:55.479
You can look at the website.
You can email us and contact us about

1049
01:12:55.479 --> 01:12:59.359
any questions you might have. Any
feedback app for us, so excuse me,

1050
01:12:59.399 --> 01:13:02.279
it's team. We had atheist typhoncommunity
dot org. And if you are

1051
01:13:02.319 --> 01:13:05.279
in the Austin area, we do
have a meetup group, so keep up

1052
01:13:05.279 --> 01:13:09.800
with our community events and you can
see what's going on at tiny dot CC

1053
01:13:09.880 --> 01:13:14.159
forward slash ACA Meetup, Philosophy under
the Stars, Game Nights, et cetera.

1054
01:13:14.800 --> 01:13:18.279
Lots of events going on, including
our Free Thought Library watch party we

1055
01:13:18.319 --> 01:13:23.720
have on Sundays for live viewings of
Talkithen and The Atheist Experience, which is

1056
01:13:23.760 --> 01:13:27.760
going to be playing after this show. So tune into the Atheist Experience.

1057
01:13:27.800 --> 01:13:29.920
But remember, if you're in the
Austin area, you can go check that

1058
01:13:29.960 --> 01:13:32.880
out with a live viewing. Meet
some people. I hear there's pizza sometimes.

1059
01:13:32.920 --> 01:13:35.600
I don't know if you're a pizza
fan. Uhh yeah, gotta go

1060
01:13:35.640 --> 01:13:41.520
for the pizza. Doors open at
noon. And don't forget to send a

1061
01:13:41.520 --> 01:13:44.159
super chat to us. So we
just read off some great super chats.

1062
01:13:44.439 --> 01:13:47.439
Love our supporters, and we can
count on seeing some of those same names

1063
01:13:47.439 --> 01:13:53.399
week by week. Miranda Rensberger shout
out to you. But it looks like

1064
01:13:53.439 --> 01:13:56.680
we got another call. So all
right, now that we're all caught up,

1065
01:13:56.840 --> 01:13:59.119
now that we've had some great calls, we're going to turn to another

1066
01:13:59.159 --> 01:14:04.920
one. Brother call him from Arizona. He Jimmy on Facebook stated that God

1067
01:14:05.039 --> 01:14:09.159
is not loving. That's me.
I think I'm Jimmy. Jimmy he's talking

1068
01:14:09.159 --> 01:14:13.439
about Uh yeah, I at Jimmy
on Facebook. We'll have to see that's

1069
01:14:13.439 --> 01:14:15.199
true. But uh yeah, I
would, I would, I would say

1070
01:14:15.199 --> 01:14:18.680
that I probably said that. So
let's talk to brother Bob. All right,

1071
01:14:18.760 --> 01:14:21.439
brother, Bob, you're on with
Jimmy and Scott. How can we

1072
01:14:21.479 --> 01:14:25.520
help you? Sir? Well,
at first, I hope you're having a

1073
01:14:25.560 --> 01:14:29.000
good day. I having a great
time. I'm I'm I love working with

1074
01:14:29.000 --> 01:14:31.159
Scott and we've had some good callers. I'm glad you're here with us.

1075
01:14:31.399 --> 01:14:36.000
What's going? Okay? So I
was just kind of wanted if I could

1076
01:14:36.119 --> 01:14:41.439
take time for review refute that claims
that you kind of made about how God

1077
01:14:41.520 --> 01:14:45.079
is not loving me, and you
put quite a few things as to sway

1078
01:14:45.199 --> 01:14:50.720
great concubine is burn out the stay
women. And so the question that I

1079
01:14:50.880 --> 01:14:59.319
have is that you know when you
leased the quam about God destroying the Canaanites,

1080
01:14:59.399 --> 01:15:02.520
you know why? Uh? I
feel like I don't know. I

1081
01:15:02.520 --> 01:15:05.720
don't know exactly what you're talking about. So why don't you go ahead and

1082
01:15:05.800 --> 01:15:09.800
just tell me? Well, the
reason I don't know that it matters,

1083
01:15:10.159 --> 01:15:12.159
to be honest with you, I
don't know that it matters to me,

1084
01:15:12.920 --> 01:15:15.640
you know, because for a God
to be all loving and then destroy a

1085
01:15:15.680 --> 01:15:21.039
bunch of people counteracts that love or
it negates that love. Can you give

1086
01:15:21.039 --> 01:15:25.600
a quick example, okay, can
get a quick example that I counter Let's

1087
01:15:25.600 --> 01:15:28.520
say I live in the neighborhood and
one of the dogs get loosed, and

1088
01:15:28.560 --> 01:15:31.520
he's a pitfull and only people in
the neighborhood have small children, and that

1089
01:15:31.560 --> 01:15:35.359
dog goes out and kills one of
the children. Would you be an advocate

1090
01:15:35.439 --> 01:15:39.520
that that dog is let the loan
or would you want to put him down?

1091
01:15:39.640 --> 01:15:42.960
I'd certainly want to get the situation
under the control. Look, I

1092
01:15:43.000 --> 01:15:46.119
don't know that I would want to
go out and kill a dog for killing

1093
01:15:46.159 --> 01:15:48.880
a child. I would control the
situation if I could, and I would

1094
01:15:48.920 --> 01:15:54.000
do what I had to do,
But I don't understand what that has to

1095
01:15:54.039 --> 01:15:58.319
do with God. And let's say
killing the Canaanites, for example, which

1096
01:15:58.359 --> 01:16:00.880
I don't even know that that happened. Archieology, uh, you know,

1097
01:16:00.920 --> 01:16:08.039
wouldn't suggest that a large scale wipeout
of the Canaanites actually took place. But

1098
01:16:08.319 --> 01:16:12.920
from your standpoint, you're saying that
God killed the Canonites and you have a

1099
01:16:13.000 --> 01:16:15.199
justification for that. So what is
that? Let me let me brother Bob,

1100
01:16:15.279 --> 01:16:19.399
sorry to interrupt here, Let me
just h are you saying that God

1101
01:16:19.520 --> 01:16:24.279
might be good and that we just
it might just seem bad to us?

1102
01:16:24.359 --> 01:16:27.560
Is that what You're saying, God's
really doing something that's good, but when

1103
01:16:27.600 --> 01:16:30.119
we look at it, because of
our limited perspective, our limited information,

1104
01:16:30.680 --> 01:16:35.960
our limited you know, mental capacity, we just can't understand God's mysterious ways.

1105
01:16:36.479 --> 01:16:40.079
Is that what you're saying, that
that it actually was a good thing

1106
01:16:40.439 --> 01:16:43.680
that God was doing and it just
looked evil to us. Yeah, I

1107
01:16:44.239 --> 01:16:47.479
would use a little different phrase,
and I was okay, okay, So

1108
01:16:47.640 --> 01:16:51.159
then well there's a flip side to
that question. All of the things that

1109
01:16:51.239 --> 01:16:56.800
you think God does that are good, then if we if we are limited

1110
01:16:56.840 --> 01:17:00.000
and we can't see the outcome,
if God oversees every thing and knows more

1111
01:17:00.079 --> 01:17:05.399
than us and has a deeper understanding
of consequences and intentions and that kind of

1112
01:17:05.439 --> 01:17:10.279
thing. If God could be doing
something that's really good but it just looks

1113
01:17:10.319 --> 01:17:15.079
bad to us, then couldn't God
also be doing things that are ultimately evil

1114
01:17:15.159 --> 01:17:18.720
that just look good to us.
No, That's why I was trying to

1115
01:17:18.720 --> 01:17:21.520
make the basic point about that dog
in the neighborhood. I mean, I've

1116
01:17:21.520 --> 01:17:26.119
got six kids. If that want
of that dog up into my neighborhood and

1117
01:17:26.159 --> 01:17:29.359
that killed one of the neighborhood kids, I would they put it down,

1118
01:17:29.479 --> 01:17:31.239
all right, But you know what
that is a that is a kilt.

1119
01:17:31.399 --> 01:17:34.359
Hold, let me just finish the
point. You know, you guys like

1120
01:17:34.439 --> 01:17:38.039
to always interrupt. I know,
I want to get to the point.

1121
01:17:38.079 --> 01:17:40.159
I want to get to the point. And that's actually where I was going.

1122
01:17:40.279 --> 01:17:42.680
That's actually where I was going.
So let me just say, brother

1123
01:17:42.680 --> 01:17:44.760
Bob, just for a second,
let me just say this, if you

1124
01:17:44.760 --> 01:17:47.760
were being disingenuous to say that,
you wouldn't say, I want that dog

1125
01:17:47.800 --> 01:17:50.880
out of you. Okay. Well, the same point that takes place in

1126
01:17:51.359 --> 01:17:57.239
this passage with the Canaanites. The
Canaanites were practicing so much evil stuff that

1127
01:17:57.319 --> 01:18:01.359
they were taking their children and putting
them on coals of fires and burning them

1128
01:18:01.399 --> 01:18:05.720
alive. The town practiced this that
they would bring the bells of the town

1129
01:18:06.039 --> 01:18:11.239
so that they couldnt hear the screams
of the children. This is just one

1130
01:18:11.279 --> 01:18:15.640
of the aspects that they do.
Okay, Okay, that my community and

1131
01:18:15.720 --> 01:18:18.800
people were doing it, I would
say, you guys don't deserve to live,

1132
01:18:18.960 --> 01:18:21.439
all right, all right, brother
Bob. Now it's my turn.

1133
01:18:21.560 --> 01:18:25.720
Okay, Now it's my turn.
Okay. We have no idea if that

1134
01:18:25.880 --> 01:18:31.039
story is true, we have no
idea if Canaanites were actually doing what the

1135
01:18:31.439 --> 01:18:36.560
ancient Hebrews said they were doing.
This very well could just be propaganda.

1136
01:18:36.800 --> 01:18:42.319
This very well could just be legend
or mythology, because we have absolutely no

1137
01:18:42.479 --> 01:18:48.439
evidence of the interactions between Israelis and
Canaanites other than what's in the Bible.

1138
01:18:48.479 --> 01:18:55.199
There's very little archaeological record to support
the Bible, especially the further back you

1139
01:18:55.279 --> 01:19:00.479
go, and for you to say, hold on, it's for let's just

1140
01:19:00.560 --> 01:19:04.520
say that we have no idea what
happened, okay, and let's just say

1141
01:19:04.560 --> 01:19:09.920
that these people were doing that thing. Okay, how do we determine that

1142
01:19:10.000 --> 01:19:13.319
God is even real? Let's say
people were burning their kids at the stake,

1143
01:19:13.640 --> 01:19:15.600
or let's say that we don't even
know what was happening. Okay,

1144
01:19:15.760 --> 01:19:19.159
those are two different scenarios. How
do we determine that God is real in

1145
01:19:19.239 --> 01:19:24.039
any either of those scenarios? Okay? But you know you're trying to expand

1146
01:19:24.079 --> 01:19:26.600
it on me. I thought we
were trying to discuss this point of love,

1147
01:19:26.800 --> 01:19:29.720
so you know, you kind of
broadened this instead of saying, hey,

1148
01:19:29.800 --> 01:19:31.720
let's talk about what the things did
you Well, that's important. That's

1149
01:19:31.760 --> 01:19:38.720
important because you're stating this story as
factience of God. You know, if

1150
01:19:38.760 --> 01:19:41.439
I came up, you stated,
listen to me, hold on. You

1151
01:19:41.479 --> 01:19:44.479
know what, brother Bob. You
know I'm muting you for a second because

1152
01:19:44.479 --> 01:19:46.439
you're raising your voice at me.
And that's really like not called for.

1153
01:19:46.960 --> 01:19:53.039
You stated a story about canonites being
wiped out by your God as fact.

1154
01:19:53.319 --> 01:19:56.279
I don't care if you want to
talk about God or love. You stated

1155
01:19:56.479 --> 01:19:59.560
you made a claim, okay,
And what I'm telling you is that what

1156
01:19:59.600 --> 01:20:02.239
we know as far as the archaeological
record is that that story has not been

1157
01:20:02.319 --> 01:20:05.720
verified. Okay, there's no way
to verify it. We have no idea

1158
01:20:05.760 --> 01:20:11.479
if that's true. So you are
giving me a fictional story to kind of

1159
01:20:11.520 --> 01:20:15.079
determine whether or not I think what
your fictional God is doing is right or

1160
01:20:15.079 --> 01:20:18.279
wrong. So now we have a
bigger problem, right, we have to

1161
01:20:18.319 --> 01:20:20.840
determine, well, how do we
even know that that story is true?

1162
01:20:20.920 --> 01:20:26.920
If that's your criteria for defining love
and for defining God as being. If

1163
01:20:26.960 --> 01:20:31.039
you don't want to prove God,
how do you assign the characteristic of love

1164
01:20:31.079 --> 01:20:34.279
to it? Right? You can't
say something's loving but then say, well,

1165
01:20:34.399 --> 01:20:36.840
you know it might not be real. I mean, it's got to

1166
01:20:36.880 --> 01:20:40.800
be real if it's loving. So
anyway, please don't yell at me.

1167
01:20:40.920 --> 01:20:43.680
I'm trying to have a conversation with
you. I don't believe that your story

1168
01:20:43.720 --> 01:20:45.439
happens, and I have no reason
to believe that God is loving, because

1169
01:20:45.840 --> 01:20:49.520
if God is real and all these
stories are real, God's done some really

1170
01:20:49.600 --> 01:20:53.600
horrible things. You're unmuted. Go
ahead, brother Bob, all right,

1171
01:20:53.680 --> 01:20:57.079
thank you so much. Sorry about
the vine. So the one that I

1172
01:20:57.159 --> 01:21:00.039
get at is that in your logic
that you've paid here is that you made

1173
01:21:00.119 --> 01:21:03.600
the case point in this Facebook that
all these things were all wrong, so

1174
01:21:03.640 --> 01:21:08.159
God coundnot be loving. Now you're
questioning if they happen. So it's like

1175
01:21:08.239 --> 01:21:10.960
you're speaking on both sides of your
mouth. You can't see. At one

1176
01:21:11.000 --> 01:21:14.520
point, Oh, God's terrible because
he destroyed these people. On the flip

1177
01:21:14.560 --> 01:21:16.960
side, we don't even know if
it's rue. The character, the character

1178
01:21:17.079 --> 01:21:20.479
of God in the Bible is a
bad God. Do you think what the

1179
01:21:20.600 --> 01:21:25.960
joker in Batman is bad? Right? It doesn't mean I think that the

1180
01:21:26.079 --> 01:21:29.479
joker is real. It just means
I think he's a bad character. The

1181
01:21:29.560 --> 01:21:32.600
problem I have there, and then
the claim that I made that God is

1182
01:21:32.640 --> 01:21:36.520
bad is that he does all types
of horrible things to all kinds of people,

1183
01:21:36.640 --> 01:21:40.880
and people worship him and call him
loving. Right now, he could

1184
01:21:40.920 --> 01:21:43.800
be real, or he should be
just a character, but that would hold

1185
01:21:43.840 --> 01:21:46.560
true to it no matter what.
How did you make this claim that God

1186
01:21:46.600 --> 01:21:50.119
does all these horrible things to people? How do you know that that you

1187
01:21:50.119 --> 01:21:54.000
don't believe in God? I don't
believe in God. We're talking about the

1188
01:21:54.119 --> 01:21:59.399
character of God in the Bible.
Okay, there's a separate conversation about whether

1189
01:21:59.479 --> 01:22:03.800
or not God is real. We
can still discuss the morality or lack thereof

1190
01:22:04.000 --> 01:22:08.039
of a fictional character. People do
it all the time. It's you know,

1191
01:22:08.520 --> 01:22:13.399
much of literature is about analyzing fictional
characters and then using that to,

1192
01:22:13.800 --> 01:22:16.560
you know, to look at ourselves. And so you're saying, so Jimmy

1193
01:22:17.000 --> 01:22:23.159
said he believes that this God character
is not loving and gave a list of

1194
01:22:23.199 --> 01:22:27.439
reasons why. And you said you
were started talking about, well, would

1195
01:22:27.439 --> 01:22:30.159
you kill a dog if it was
going to go kill a child? Well,

1196
01:22:30.439 --> 01:22:33.159
yeah, and that would be you
could argue at least that that would

1197
01:22:33.199 --> 01:22:36.840
be a good thing to do that, or that you could argue that maybe

1198
01:22:38.239 --> 01:22:42.880
genocide in the case of God,
had some kind of bigger, good thing,

1199
01:22:43.439 --> 01:22:45.920
good kind of outcome, but that
really but by making that claim,

1200
01:22:46.000 --> 01:22:51.520
you're actually undermining your entire case.
You're undermining your entire case that God is

1201
01:22:51.520 --> 01:22:56.039
good. If we say, if
we can't judge God based on what we

1202
01:22:56.119 --> 01:23:00.199
see and what we understand of morality
too, and we can't make those judgments

1203
01:23:00.199 --> 01:23:04.560
that God is not loving, we
also can't make the judgment that God is

1204
01:23:04.680 --> 01:23:08.960
loving. So at the very best, at the very best, what you're

1205
01:23:08.960 --> 01:23:14.439
accomplishing in here as you're saying human
beings just don't understand the situation enough to

1206
01:23:14.520 --> 01:23:17.239
make that decision. That and if
you were to prove your case, you

1207
01:23:17.279 --> 01:23:21.920
would show that maybe Jimmy overstep by
saying that God wasn't loving. But you

1208
01:23:21.960 --> 01:23:26.640
are also put that mirror on yourself, and look back at yourself, you

1209
01:23:26.720 --> 01:23:30.720
are also undermining your own claim that
God is loving because if we can't know,

1210
01:23:30.880 --> 01:23:34.159
if we can't know because we don't
know all of the outcomes, then

1211
01:23:34.479 --> 01:23:39.439
we can't judge either way. So
at best we're looking for we don't know

1212
01:23:39.520 --> 01:23:42.439
that God is good. We don't
know that God is not good. We

1213
01:23:42.479 --> 01:23:45.840
don't know anything about God, Jimmy
was. That's where the does God exist

1214
01:23:45.880 --> 01:23:49.239
come into play. If we can't
reason our way into whether or not God

1215
01:23:49.319 --> 01:23:54.479
is good based on the stories because
we just don't have enough information about the

1216
01:23:54.520 --> 01:23:57.960
stories, then the next thing we
would do would be to turn to Okay,

1217
01:23:58.000 --> 01:24:00.720
well show me God. We can
look at God and talk to God.

1218
01:24:00.760 --> 01:24:02.319
We can judge, you know,
we can judge God based off of

1219
01:24:02.680 --> 01:24:05.880
what we see there. And if
we don't have either of those ways,

1220
01:24:06.199 --> 01:24:11.479
then where does that get you?
I would imagine that if I accused you

1221
01:24:11.720 --> 01:24:15.039
of improperly saying that God was loving, you would probably find, you know,

1222
01:24:15.079 --> 01:24:18.680
probably be defensive about that. You
would probably try to argue that no,

1223
01:24:18.840 --> 01:24:21.800
God is loving, and here's why. But all of those things that

1224
01:24:21.840 --> 01:24:26.359
you would list on that list of
the reasons why God is loving, you

1225
01:24:26.479 --> 01:24:30.520
have just as much reason to believe
that that that implies your conclusion as Jimmy

1226
01:24:30.560 --> 01:24:35.000
had when he gave the list of
things that evil people do. God does

1227
01:24:35.039 --> 01:24:39.880
these things. Therefore God is evil
or not loving? You see you see

1228
01:24:39.920 --> 01:24:42.880
that connection there. Let's give Bob
a chance to respond. Go ahead,

1229
01:24:42.880 --> 01:24:46.039
Bob, Sure, yeah, I
liked it so one that I'll I say

1230
01:24:46.119 --> 01:24:51.159
is that you said proven that the
count is possibly fictional. One to disprove

1231
01:24:51.279 --> 01:24:57.039
that it isn't is not fictional because
we see that count that it's proven today

1232
01:24:57.279 --> 01:25:01.199
that they're red Sea is a crossing. It's actually proven factial account. We

1233
01:25:01.279 --> 01:25:08.279
see it. It's cross I mean
fish. Okay, I interrupt. You

1234
01:25:08.399 --> 01:25:11.439
asked me to complain about me doing
it. You gotta be fair. So

1235
01:25:11.520 --> 01:25:15.199
there is a site that you can
look up and it shows the spokes of

1236
01:25:15.279 --> 01:25:19.760
the chariots that are in the depths
of the water that have been left there.

1237
01:25:19.920 --> 01:25:24.920
There's also on the side of the
shore sand that has been burned.

1238
01:25:25.239 --> 01:25:31.159
Supposedly the Israelites were led by a
pillar fire and it was a scientists said

1239
01:25:31.159 --> 01:25:36.079
it takes over three hundred degrees make
celsius to burn sands. What does that

1240
01:25:36.119 --> 01:25:39.800
have to do with whether or not
the character in the Bible is good or

1241
01:25:39.840 --> 01:25:42.239
evil? No? No, I've
just carried on. He wanted me to

1242
01:25:42.319 --> 01:25:45.279
say, Hey, I don't even
believe that the cake came and I swear

1243
01:25:45.319 --> 01:25:46.920
we're taken by Israel. So that's
part of the account, isn't it.

1244
01:25:47.279 --> 01:25:51.199
But no, it's not so.
So we have beaten this to death on

1245
01:25:51.239 --> 01:25:55.199
this show. And I don't want
to like start ripping this apart. So

1246
01:25:55.399 --> 01:25:59.720
let me just let me just go
back and let mean and reiterate what I

1247
01:25:59.800 --> 01:26:01.520
say. Hold on, hold on, let me reiterate what I said.

1248
01:26:01.640 --> 01:26:05.399
Okay, In the Bible, God
kills millions of people with a flood.

1249
01:26:05.560 --> 01:26:12.119
Right in the Bible. God kills
the children of all the firstborn in Egypt.

1250
01:26:12.359 --> 01:26:16.760
In the Bible, God allows people
to be raped, even allows slavery.

1251
01:26:16.840 --> 01:26:19.880
God allows, he does horrible things
to Job. I mean, are

1252
01:26:19.880 --> 01:26:24.479
you kidding me? He loves Job
in the Bible. God, I could

1253
01:26:24.520 --> 01:26:26.840
go on and on, and I
have read the Bible. It's been a

1254
01:26:26.840 --> 01:26:32.199
long time. But when you look
at the Bible, you see multiple instances

1255
01:26:32.239 --> 01:26:39.600
of atrocities being sanctioned by God,
being directed by him. And you even

1256
01:26:39.680 --> 01:26:43.239
started the show with, well,
do you know why God killed the Canaanites.

1257
01:26:43.239 --> 01:26:45.479
I mean, this is God we're
talking about. If let's say God

1258
01:26:45.479 --> 01:26:49.000
did kill the Canaanites, and I
will reiterate, there is no archaeological record

1259
01:26:49.039 --> 01:26:54.439
that supports that. But if it
did happen, could God not have been

1260
01:26:54.479 --> 01:27:00.079
powerful enough to sway them without using
violence? Could God not have been the

1261
01:27:00.119 --> 01:27:02.399
one that they worshiped instead of the
god Molech that they were burning their children

1262
01:27:02.439 --> 01:27:06.239
to. I mean, this is
all stuff of fantasy, of the stuff

1263
01:27:06.239 --> 01:27:11.199
of fiction, and it's not it's
not supported by any facts. The chariots,

1264
01:27:11.239 --> 01:27:13.159
the wagon wheel, the partying of
the Red Sea, these are not

1265
01:27:13.199 --> 01:27:17.239
supported by science. But these are
not supported by the scientific method. There's

1266
01:27:17.279 --> 01:27:20.880
no consensus that that happened. I
mean, do you think that there are

1267
01:27:20.920 --> 01:27:27.239
no chariot wheels in the Red Sea? I mean, the explanation is that

1268
01:27:27.279 --> 01:27:30.760
the Jews left Egypt. There's no
hold on Bob. There's no evidence that

1269
01:27:30.800 --> 01:27:33.800
the Jews were even in Egypt in
the numbers that they talked about. Where

1270
01:27:33.840 --> 01:27:39.399
is their garbage, where are their
habitats? Where is the archaeological record that

1271
01:27:39.439 --> 01:27:43.760
says that. Heck, there's no
mention of Israel except for two different places

1272
01:27:43.800 --> 01:27:46.399
that are that come from hundreds of
years apart, and it's they're referred to

1273
01:27:46.479 --> 01:27:49.600
as the House of David. It's
not even really Israel. So you know,

1274
01:27:49.920 --> 01:27:53.359
look, man, there's this is
a large hill to cline. You

1275
01:27:53.399 --> 01:27:56.039
asked me why I think God is
not loving? And God is not loving

1276
01:27:56.039 --> 01:27:58.359
for the reasons that I gave you. Now, if I want to talk

1277
01:27:58.359 --> 01:28:00.840
about why God is not real.
Well, it just doesn't. It's not

1278
01:28:00.840 --> 01:28:03.800
supported by evidence. I mean that
your claim is God is real. You

1279
01:28:03.840 --> 01:28:08.159
know, I just don't get this. You got to talk about five times

1280
01:28:08.159 --> 01:28:11.159
compared to the amount of times I
have, and you asked to talk about

1281
01:28:11.159 --> 01:28:14.359
something, and then you go off
on these other things. You're saying something

1282
01:28:14.359 --> 01:28:17.520
that needs to be corrected. You're
saying something. Let me let me finish.

1283
01:28:17.960 --> 01:28:23.039
You know, I don't get that
Job wasn't God didn't punish Job for

1284
01:28:23.079 --> 01:28:26.359
what what happened in his life.
That's not true at all. I want

1285
01:28:26.359 --> 01:28:29.399
to bond up that I didn't say
he punished him though. Don't know,

1286
01:28:29.800 --> 01:28:32.680
Bob, Bob stop, you know
what I'm muting, Bob. I'm muting

1287
01:28:32.680 --> 01:28:38.319
Bob again. So this is why
I have to interrupt, because I never

1288
01:28:38.479 --> 01:28:42.880
said that God was punishing Job for
what he did in his life. Okay,

1289
01:28:43.119 --> 01:28:47.000
that you're changing the context of the
conversation. I said God did horrible

1290
01:28:47.119 --> 01:28:51.319
things to Job. That's accurate,
Okay, And I have to keep interjecting

1291
01:28:51.359 --> 01:28:56.159
because you can't change the course of
the conversation. Go ahead, Bob,

1292
01:28:56.159 --> 01:29:00.560
You're back on all right. Sole
You've shown me the passage where as God

1293
01:29:00.640 --> 01:29:03.199
did all this damnies to do,
it does not say that in the Bible.

1294
01:29:03.279 --> 01:29:09.479
The Bible clearly states that Satan came
to God and he asked for permission

1295
01:29:09.760 --> 01:29:12.920
to cause damnies to him, and
God said, you can do anything to

1296
01:29:13.039 --> 01:29:15.159
him, but do not take his
life. And at the end of Satan

1297
01:29:15.239 --> 01:29:19.680
doing all this horrible thing taking all
his children, job winds up with I

1298
01:29:19.760 --> 01:29:25.239
believe twice as many children as he
had before, in greater wealth than ever.

1299
01:29:27.279 --> 01:29:30.359
Bob, I would not sacrifice my
two children that I have right now

1300
01:29:30.399 --> 01:29:33.520
for four children later. Number one. Number two, I would not let

1301
01:29:33.560 --> 01:29:38.680
my neighbor kill the children, kill
somebody else's children if they promise to give

1302
01:29:38.720 --> 01:29:42.800
them more children later. For God
to allow Satan to do that, God

1303
01:29:42.880 --> 01:29:45.319
is an accomplice. And this,
by the way, this God that you're

1304
01:29:45.359 --> 01:29:49.560
talking about is the most powerful being
in the world. What the hell does

1305
01:29:49.600 --> 01:29:54.680
he need to prove the Satan?
Ok For one, you were willing to

1306
01:29:54.800 --> 01:29:58.680
let your dog live in the neighborhood
that was going to potentially kill your kids,

1307
01:29:58.720 --> 01:30:00.800
And now you're saying no, I
never said that. Oh my God,

1308
01:30:01.239 --> 01:30:04.399
let Bob. Can he do that? He's so wrong Bob, you've

1309
01:30:04.439 --> 01:30:09.439
done nothing. You have I'm sorry
you have not accomplished anything, and we

1310
01:30:09.479 --> 01:30:15.680
are extremely grateful for you to call
and to put yourself out there and you

1311
01:30:15.680 --> 01:30:17.439
know, just have a conversation with
us. But I have to admit this

1312
01:30:17.479 --> 01:30:20.319
is getting a little bit exhausting.
We're not getting anywhere and we're going to

1313
01:30:20.399 --> 01:30:24.960
have to move on. So I
really appreciate you calling. Thank you so

1314
01:30:25.079 --> 01:30:28.319
much, Scott. I think we
had one more super chat come in.

1315
01:30:29.079 --> 01:30:32.039
I believe we have two that we
haven't gotten to yet. We have super

1316
01:30:32.159 --> 01:30:36.520
chat from Ben nine Lives, a
new member four ninety nine dollars four ninety

1317
01:30:36.560 --> 01:30:42.800
nine. Thank you for Sunday's weekly
church replacements. You're welcome, Ben nine

1318
01:30:42.840 --> 01:30:46.600
Lives. We also have a super
chat from Coach Frankie donated twenty bucks.

1319
01:30:46.680 --> 01:30:49.760
All right, thank you Coach Frankie. Great job. Guys love the show

1320
01:30:50.079 --> 01:30:55.119
and you know, we love doing
the show. We just for conversations just

1321
01:30:55.159 --> 01:30:59.039
like we're having today. It's just
been things get contentious. But I think

1322
01:30:59.079 --> 01:31:02.880
that anytime we of communication between people
that disagree, I think that's a good

1323
01:31:02.960 --> 01:31:05.640
thing. And so I'm happy to
have been part of the show and I'm

1324
01:31:05.960 --> 01:31:10.199
I'm I'm glad that we've had the
callers that we've had. Yeah. Yeah,

1325
01:31:10.199 --> 01:31:12.720
who did we have today? Mike, Annie and Brother Bob? Is

1326
01:31:12.720 --> 01:31:15.960
that it? Yea? Yeah?
Yeah. So appreciate you guys, appreciate

1327
01:31:15.000 --> 01:31:18.920
everybody who supports the ACA. Scott, thank you so much for joining me

1328
01:31:18.920 --> 01:31:24.880
today this week. Pleasure dude.
Awesome. Yeah. So all the viewers

1329
01:31:24.920 --> 01:31:28.119
remember our prompt for this week is
when you go to hell, who is

1330
01:31:28.159 --> 01:31:30.920
the first person that you want to
talk to? Uh? And so maybe

1331
01:31:30.960 --> 01:31:34.760
remember to put your comments in the
chat or excuse me, I hate when

1332
01:31:34.800 --> 01:31:38.560
I say put them in the chat. Remember to put your answers in the

1333
01:31:38.640 --> 01:31:41.159
comments. Boom, there it is, and we will read out the top

1334
01:31:41.159 --> 01:31:45.000
three answers next week. I want
to thank Richard Gilliver. We bringing up

1335
01:31:45.079 --> 01:31:48.760
richards Man. There he is there, he is boss the producer. We're

1336
01:31:48.760 --> 01:31:55.319
bringing up Richard. Thanks for having
nail folks copyright them by singing a famous

1337
01:31:55.359 --> 01:32:00.640
wrestling entrance theme when you said the
boss shand yeah. Well Richard, thanks

1338
01:32:01.000 --> 01:32:03.720
thanks for backing the sat Man and
being willing to step in. I'm looking

1339
01:32:03.760 --> 01:32:08.680
forward to working with you again sometime
soon. But yeah, we had a

1340
01:32:08.680 --> 01:32:11.479
great show. I hope you were
happy with it. Yeah, absolutely,

1341
01:32:11.560 --> 01:32:15.520
I very much enjoyed this show.
I think Mike's Mike. I want to

1342
01:32:15.560 --> 01:32:19.119
thank Mike and Bob first and foremost, because there were two people who were

1343
01:32:20.000 --> 01:32:28.039
asked to call in from the Facebook
is Community of Austin facebook page after responding

1344
01:32:28.079 --> 01:32:30.319
to some of our videos on there, and they have and I always,

1345
01:32:30.439 --> 01:32:36.840
I really really do appreciate that.
I literally ask hundreds of theists who comment

1346
01:32:38.079 --> 01:32:43.439
straw men, accusers on there of
all sorts of things, and when people

1347
01:32:43.520 --> 01:32:46.640
like Mike and Bob actually take the
step to call in and have these conversations,

1348
01:32:46.960 --> 01:32:51.640
I genuinely, genuinely do appreciate that, and I hope they continue to

1349
01:32:51.680 --> 01:32:55.479
do so. I would like both
of them to call back, and I

1350
01:32:55.520 --> 01:32:59.600
hope more theists who do take those
steps to comment, you know, take

1351
01:32:59.640 --> 01:33:02.880
the step to follow that up and
actually have the conversation with us. But

1352
01:33:03.159 --> 01:33:08.600
absolutely brilliant. So I appreciate both
of you guys. I appreciate all the

1353
01:33:08.680 --> 01:33:15.359
callers. Anne again very much appreciate
her calling in the criteria she gave for

1354
01:33:15.479 --> 01:33:19.359
design. I was I was screaming
all the way through that call. Where

1355
01:33:19.479 --> 01:33:25.319
have you got this criteria from?
Yeah? You know, which which kind

1356
01:33:25.399 --> 01:33:31.159
of authority on designing things have you
taken this criteria from? And you know,

1357
01:33:31.279 --> 01:33:34.760
and we didn't ever get there.
She never presented that, and that

1358
01:33:34.840 --> 01:33:38.920
was hugely frustrating. But again,
you know, I'd love her to call

1359
01:33:38.960 --> 01:33:42.399
back and kind of continue that conversation. The great show, guys, love

1360
01:33:42.439 --> 01:33:45.520
it. Appreciate you both very much, Thank you very much. Now,

1361
01:33:45.600 --> 01:33:46.880
Richard, get the heck out of
here. Scott and I got some stuff

1362
01:33:46.920 --> 01:33:51.159
to do, all right, And
most importantly the thing that we need to

1363
01:33:51.199 --> 01:33:57.159
do is send out lover rings.
So yeah, we're just sending out our

1364
01:33:57.239 --> 01:34:00.279
rings, and I hope everybody feels
our love. Scotty, you're joining us

1365
01:34:00.279 --> 01:34:02.960
in the in the after show,
I'll be there. I'll be there.

1366
01:34:03.159 --> 01:34:05.359
We'll be in the discord in just
a few minutes, So join us for

1367
01:34:05.399 --> 01:34:11.039
the after show. Remember, everybody, if you don't believe, this is

1368
01:34:11.119 --> 01:34:15.319
your community and we appreciate you being
here. But if you are a believer,

1369
01:34:15.640 --> 01:34:36.920
we do not hate you. We're
just not convinced. We want the

1370
01:34:36.960 --> 01:34:43.399
truth. So watch Truth Wanted live
Friday at seven pm Central. Visit tiny

1371
01:34:43.479 --> 01:34:47.239
dot cc, slash y t tw
and call into the show at five one

1372
01:34:47.319 --> 01:35:05.720
two two or connect to the show
online at tiny dot cc, slash call tw assass