1 00:00:01,080 --> 00:00:04,839 How'd you like to listen to dot net rocks with no ads? Easy? 2 00:00:05,360 --> 00:00:09,480 Become a patron for just five dollars a month. You get access to a 3 00:00:09,480 --> 00:00:14,279 private RSS feed where all the shows have no ads. Twenty dollars a month, 4 00:00:14,279 --> 00:00:18,440 we'll get you that and a special dot net Rocks patron mug. Sign 5 00:00:18,519 --> 00:00:36,359 up now at Patreon dot dot NetRocks dot com. Hey, welcome back to 6 00:00:36,399 --> 00:00:39,679 dot net rocks. This is Carl Franklin, it is Richard Capell and we're 7 00:00:39,719 --> 00:00:43,560 in Portugal again and get here. It's nice. We love it here. 8 00:00:43,880 --> 00:00:48,200 It was supposed to be raining all day today and the sun came out while 9 00:00:48,200 --> 00:00:53,039 we're in here waiting. We're indoors all day. I was ready to be 10 00:00:53,240 --> 00:00:56,359 soaking wet by the time I got here, because it's about a what a 11 00:00:56,359 --> 00:01:00,679 half a mile walk or something like that from the hotel. So I packed 12 00:01:00,079 --> 00:01:07,799 in my bag like an underwear shirt, another pair of shoes, which, 13 00:01:07,920 --> 00:01:11,560 by the way, is kind of funny, Kelly, My wife packed my 14 00:01:11,680 --> 00:01:19,560 other pair of shoes, except that she packed two left feet downside to keep 15 00:01:19,599 --> 00:01:23,519 buying the same shita and yeah, the downside right, Apparently I had two 16 00:01:23,599 --> 00:01:27,319 pairs of old shoes hanging out by the door anyway. That's not important. 17 00:01:27,359 --> 00:01:33,200 What's important is dot net rocks. Victoria Melnikova is with us today. But 18 00:01:33,359 --> 00:01:38,159 before we introduce her, let's roll the music for Better Know a Framework. 19 00:01:38,239 --> 00:01:51,519 Awesome oos. This being Show eighteen seventy one. If you go to one 20 00:01:51,640 --> 00:01:57,200 eight seven to one dot pwop, dot me, pop dot me, that'll 21 00:01:57,200 --> 00:02:04,280 bring you to this article in the bite, which is futurism dot com blog, 22 00:02:05,319 --> 00:02:12,319 and it's this. Microsoft will pay you fifteen thousand dollars if you can 23 00:02:12,360 --> 00:02:17,000 get bing ai to go off the rails. Oh man, sounds pretty good. 24 00:02:17,680 --> 00:02:22,439 All that. Being the bounty hunter, you think you can outsmart an 25 00:02:22,439 --> 00:02:27,000 Ai into saying stuff it's not supposed to. Microsoft is betting big that you 26 00:02:27,080 --> 00:02:30,439 can't and willing to pay up if it's wrong. In a blog update, 27 00:02:30,919 --> 00:02:38,680 Microsoft announced a new bug bounty program, vowing to reward security researchers between two 28 00:02:38,719 --> 00:02:44,439 thousand and fifteen thousand dollars if they're able to find vulnerabilities in its bing ai 29 00:02:44,599 --> 00:02:49,479 products, including jail break prompts, that make it produce responses that go against 30 00:02:49,520 --> 00:02:54,599 the guardrails that are supposed to bart from being bigoted or otherwise problematic and otherwise 31 00:02:54,759 --> 00:02:59,560 problematic is underline, meaning there's a link to it. I don't even want 32 00:02:59,560 --> 00:03:02,479 to know that link goes to. But you'll have to figure that out for 33 00:03:02,520 --> 00:03:08,240 yourself. To be eligible for submission being users must inform Microsoft but a previously 34 00:03:08,400 --> 00:03:15,080 unknown vulnerability that is per criteria outlined by the company, either important or critical 35 00:03:15,120 --> 00:03:21,080 to security. They must also be able to reproduce the vulnerability via video or 36 00:03:21,120 --> 00:03:23,639 in writing. So there you go, interesting have at it. Yeah, 37 00:03:23,639 --> 00:03:27,360 I know if you can really pull it off. I mean, lots of 38 00:03:27,479 --> 00:03:32,479 other llms have been breached, so to speak. The guys that work with 39 00:03:32,639 --> 00:03:37,000 me, Brian McKay, he was like, I could probably write a bot 40 00:03:37,039 --> 00:03:39,039 that'll do that. Yeah, it's worth a coin. That's not a bad 41 00:03:39,080 --> 00:03:42,199 day. Yeah, it's not a bad day. Well, anyway, that's 42 00:03:42,199 --> 00:03:45,599 the story that I have. Who's talking to us today, Richard. You 43 00:03:45,680 --> 00:03:47,759 grab a comment top of the show eighteen thirty, the one we did back 44 00:03:47,800 --> 00:03:52,719 in the beginning of the year January of twenty three with Sarah Nevotani when we 45 00:03:52,719 --> 00:03:57,520 were talking about sustainable open source. Yeah, and this comment comes from Voytech, 46 00:03:57,599 --> 00:04:00,599 who has been listening to the show for a long time. It's written 47 00:04:00,599 --> 00:04:01,560 a few comments. He says, Hi, guys, I have met one 48 00:04:01,719 --> 00:04:06,159 major problem with contributing to open source projects which I use in my work. 49 00:04:08,800 --> 00:04:15,360 Large companies add firewall rules to block get pushed commands to get hub. Why 50 00:04:15,360 --> 00:04:17,879 would they do that? It's pretty strange. Huh. So if I find 51 00:04:17,920 --> 00:04:20,519 a bug or when implement a feature, I'm not able to deliver it back 52 00:04:20,560 --> 00:04:24,360 properly, so I have to Now he's found a workaround and get this, 53 00:04:24,879 --> 00:04:28,560 create a fork in my private Git server and maintain the project privately at the 54 00:04:28,560 --> 00:04:30,759 time that I would leave the company. That's one workaround. Would you say, 55 00:04:31,160 --> 00:04:35,000 just fork it and hold your changes until until you go home at the 56 00:04:35,040 --> 00:04:39,319 end of the day, and then push it up that way? Prepare code 57 00:04:39,360 --> 00:04:41,879 on a private machine, even in private time, and push it up as 58 00:04:41,920 --> 00:04:46,199 a pr that way. But then I can't test it in production or copy 59 00:04:46,240 --> 00:04:50,240 paste the files I've changed into the gethub WebUI, which is a little tough 60 00:04:50,240 --> 00:04:53,839 if the change is significant. And patch files make this a bit easier, 61 00:04:53,879 --> 00:04:57,439 but still problematic. Wow. I mean the other option would be can you 62 00:04:57,480 --> 00:05:00,920 fire up a VPN and you know, go out through that. But I'm 63 00:05:00,920 --> 00:05:05,639 sure if they are locking down GitHub. They're probably looking for VPN kids too, 64 00:05:05,720 --> 00:05:10,519 and you'll have infosec landing on your big hurry. But imagine that this 65 00:05:10,560 --> 00:05:14,160 company, I mean, I think what he's saying here is that this company 66 00:05:14,240 --> 00:05:18,360 is using open source but blocking folks from contributing back to open source. That's 67 00:05:18,480 --> 00:05:21,279 not right. Yeah, that's pretty messed up. Yeah, that's pretty messed 68 00:05:21,319 --> 00:05:25,879 up. Foy check feel your pain, man serious. And the copy of 69 00:05:25,959 --> 00:05:28,319 music Goby is on its way to you. And if you'd like a copy 70 00:05:28,319 --> 00:05:30,680 of music, go buy. I write a comment on the website at dot 71 00:05:30,720 --> 00:05:33,319 netroox dot com or on the facebooks. We publish every show there, and 72 00:05:33,319 --> 00:05:36,279 if comment they're reading on the show, we'll send you copy of music go 73 00:05:36,360 --> 00:05:40,319 by. And you can follow us on Twitter if you want. But or 74 00:05:40,519 --> 00:05:44,000 X or whatever the hell they're calling it these days. But the real cool 75 00:05:44,040 --> 00:05:47,879 kids are over on Mastodon. I'm at Carl Franklin at tech hub dot social, 76 00:05:48,160 --> 00:05:51,040 and I'm Rich Campbell at Masterdon dot social. And send us a two 77 00:05:51,399 --> 00:05:55,519 and we will read them. Mm hm. We may not answer, but 78 00:05:55,639 --> 00:05:58,120 we will read. We do the best we can. Yeah, I should 79 00:05:58,120 --> 00:06:01,839 be reading comments from Masterdon. Yeah yeah, yeah, absolutely, Okay, 80 00:06:01,959 --> 00:06:10,639 So let's bring on Victoria Melnikova, and she works for a company named Evil 81 00:06:10,920 --> 00:06:14,279 Martians. Are there any other kind of martians? Really? I mean really 82 00:06:14,319 --> 00:06:17,040 if you think about it, No, you know, maybe we're talking microbes 83 00:06:17,120 --> 00:06:21,079 or microbes evil. I don't know if you could call them they are, 84 00:06:21,560 --> 00:06:28,439 okay, So alongside Evil Martians, Victoria Melnikova connects with technical leaders, particularly 85 00:06:28,480 --> 00:06:33,959 in developer productivity space, and empowers growth stage startups on their journeys to success. 86 00:06:34,759 --> 00:06:40,879 Victoria is the author and creator of dev Propulsion Labs, a podcast about 87 00:06:40,879 --> 00:06:45,560 building successful developer tools. Welcome to the show. That is correct, and 88 00:06:45,759 --> 00:06:47,680 thank you. I'm very happy to be here. We are happy to have 89 00:06:47,759 --> 00:06:56,079 you. What do you think about blocking pushes to get hub? That's one 90 00:06:56,120 --> 00:07:00,839 way to block innovation in a company, That's what I think. At the 91 00:07:00,839 --> 00:07:03,519 same time, maybe we should you know, get being AI to do that 92 00:07:03,600 --> 00:07:09,639 task, and maybe that's how we get to rate well split the money, 93 00:07:09,720 --> 00:07:15,360 okay. So that yeah. We have done quite a few shows on open 94 00:07:15,399 --> 00:07:20,839 source and commercial interests, and it seems like the landscape is getting more and 95 00:07:20,920 --> 00:07:27,839 more screwed up right because of commercial interests. The big companies are getting involved 96 00:07:27,839 --> 00:07:30,839 now and nobody really has a I don't know. It seems to me like 97 00:07:30,920 --> 00:07:33,360 nobody really has a plan of how to do this right. What do you 98 00:07:33,399 --> 00:07:38,800 think? It's interesting because I'm more familiar with the other side of open source, 99 00:07:38,879 --> 00:07:43,160 with the indie side and startup side of open source, and that space 100 00:07:43,240 --> 00:07:47,800 is growing and thriving and it's as beautiful as ever. So I'm sure that 101 00:07:48,040 --> 00:07:53,000 on the big company side, on the enterprise side, it's quite challenging and 102 00:07:53,040 --> 00:07:58,079 there are a lot of limitations, and you know, I don't know what 103 00:07:58,120 --> 00:08:03,160 the landscape is looking like. But overall in the tool industry, I feel 104 00:08:03,160 --> 00:08:07,000 like we're doing great. But you're working with startups. Yes, so they're 105 00:08:07,000 --> 00:08:11,199 almost certainly using open source software. Yes, But are they making open source 106 00:08:11,199 --> 00:08:16,480 software too? Yes? And yet their startups so they're being funded by investors 107 00:08:16,519 --> 00:08:20,399 who want to see a return. How do those investors feel about open source 108 00:08:20,439 --> 00:08:24,680 software? That's actually a great question, And I think we see a surge 109 00:08:24,680 --> 00:08:31,320 of very exciting startups like superbase, call dot Com, Neon Database, and 110 00:08:31,399 --> 00:08:39,600 other companies that are actually profitent hugely by open sourcing. So they offer a 111 00:08:39,639 --> 00:08:43,919 free offering to their users, getting a huge kind of user base, getting 112 00:08:43,960 --> 00:08:48,840 feedback, tightening those feedback loops. So in the end they end up with 113 00:08:48,919 --> 00:08:54,000 the great product and they sell enterprise plans to big companies and they still make 114 00:08:54,039 --> 00:08:58,080 a ton of money with that. So this is sort of the classic open 115 00:08:58,080 --> 00:09:01,879 source model. Up there's a free product with animal support, and if you 116 00:09:01,200 --> 00:09:05,759 are using it at a pro level, then by the support content exactly. 117 00:09:05,000 --> 00:09:09,480 It's kind of like the open core business model when you have free open core 118 00:09:09,519 --> 00:09:16,320 that's available to everybody, dependent on the license their limitations, but still and 119 00:09:16,559 --> 00:09:20,480 the pro features or support, as you mentioned, comes at a price. 120 00:09:20,799 --> 00:09:24,320 Sure, I mean there's always a wrestling match then with are there features in 121 00:09:24,399 --> 00:09:30,600 the pro edition only or the enterprise version only? You know, how do 122 00:09:28,960 --> 00:09:33,080 you do you keep them in syncl like is it a common code base? 123 00:09:33,759 --> 00:09:37,840 Is I always worry that the open product gets left behind? Yeah? Well, 124 00:09:37,879 --> 00:09:41,200 the you know, a smart way to do it is to limit it 125 00:09:41,240 --> 00:09:45,360 by the number of users that you're supporting, right, yeah, because then 126 00:09:45,440 --> 00:09:50,080 you have full you have the full product with all of its features. You're 127 00:09:50,080 --> 00:09:54,360 not limited. You're only limited in scope by the size of the audience that's 128 00:09:54,480 --> 00:09:56,000 using it. It's an interesting question. I think I have a couple of 129 00:09:56,039 --> 00:10:00,559 great examples. So for example, even Martians also, So we create a 130 00:10:00,600 --> 00:10:05,480 lot of open source projects, and historically we've been Ruby and Rail's development shop, 131 00:10:05,120 --> 00:10:09,679 but over the years we really delved into other languages like Go and Russ 132 00:10:09,720 --> 00:10:16,360 and others. But in Ruby and rails specifically, we uh, you know, 133 00:10:16,440 --> 00:10:20,080 create a lot of projects that are forever open source. They're free. 134 00:10:20,399 --> 00:10:24,440 People use them all the time. But there is an example. Any cable 135 00:10:24,480 --> 00:10:30,360 for example, it has a free you know, a free version, free 136 00:10:30,399 --> 00:10:35,120 tier, and you would only need any cable pro if you need to do 137 00:10:35,200 --> 00:10:41,759 something really advanced. Any cable is real time in rogun Rail's applications, real 138 00:10:41,840 --> 00:10:48,919 time, real time everything cleration. Yeah, sort of a web socket kind 139 00:10:48,960 --> 00:10:52,039 of thing, kind of yeah, so it's chats notifications, that sort of 140 00:10:52,080 --> 00:10:58,279 thing uses any cable h And do you set a limit on the free version 141 00:10:58,320 --> 00:11:01,399 the like, what would make people upgrade pro if they need some custom development 142 00:11:01,399 --> 00:11:07,360 for example, or they need some custom configuration and they cannot resolve the situation. 143 00:11:07,480 --> 00:11:15,120 Another example is image proxy. It's image optimization on the fly, So 144 00:11:15,320 --> 00:11:22,080 image optimization basically image optimization will forever be free, but custom watermarks is not. 145 00:11:22,480 --> 00:11:28,200 So that's a very clear kind of like what right does the free version 146 00:11:28,279 --> 00:11:31,360 put a watermark in there? No? No, no. For example, 147 00:11:31,440 --> 00:11:35,039 you have a business and you want to want watermarks to all your images, 148 00:11:35,639 --> 00:11:39,759 So if you pay whatever it is, you know, for image proxy, 149 00:11:39,799 --> 00:11:43,639 then you get that functionality. Well, for example, smart object detection, 150 00:11:43,879 --> 00:11:46,279 is that a client side technology or a service side services service? SI? 151 00:11:46,480 --> 00:11:50,960 Yeah, okay, And in both cases it's like the customer option OPS to 152 00:11:52,080 --> 00:11:56,399 buy the pro product. There's no limits on, no limits, yeah, 153 00:11:56,799 --> 00:12:01,399 I mean, these are cases where the limit makes sense, perhaps if it's 154 00:12:01,480 --> 00:12:05,480 very expensive to run it, like for example, if it's something that if 155 00:12:05,519 --> 00:12:09,840 we host an image proxy sauce, that would be perhaps a question, you 156 00:12:09,879 --> 00:12:13,679 know, how many people would want to let on for free. But since 157 00:12:13,720 --> 00:12:16,399 people just spin up a doctor container and do it on their own, you 158 00:12:16,440 --> 00:12:20,240 know cloud, it's not a big deal. Not a big deal for us. 159 00:12:22,240 --> 00:12:26,240 Yeah. We've recently had this controversy with Unity where I mean, and 160 00:12:26,279 --> 00:12:30,960 it very much read to me as much as it went poorly with the Hey, 161 00:12:31,000 --> 00:12:35,360 if you're making money, we want to cut kind of mindset. And 162 00:12:35,440 --> 00:12:41,039 I think it's an interesting there's sam if anything ever happened to your software, 163 00:12:41,200 --> 00:12:46,759 you know what? Yeah, Well, and now the CEO is decided to 164 00:12:46,919 --> 00:12:52,679 retire, Like obviously this did not go well for Unity. But I don't 165 00:12:52,679 --> 00:12:58,240 know if you've run into these models like there's some there's one thing of you're 166 00:12:58,240 --> 00:13:00,919 building it for your company, your company makes money some other way, and 167 00:13:00,960 --> 00:13:03,840 it grows to a certain size and it costs you overhead. It's like, 168 00:13:03,879 --> 00:13:07,559 hey, we need to charge you or you want some there as opposed to 169 00:13:07,879 --> 00:13:11,480 you create a tool that's inside of our product and we sell that product and 170 00:13:11,519 --> 00:13:18,600 we're making millions. Yeah, it's interesting, So I want to approach it 171 00:13:18,639 --> 00:13:24,159 from two ends. I recently had a guest on my show I'm soon launching 172 00:13:24,200 --> 00:13:28,440 a second season of Death Propulsion Labs, and in that season, I have 173 00:13:28,559 --> 00:13:33,399 ten deftool founders that are doing Some of them are doing commercial open source and 174 00:13:33,440 --> 00:13:37,360 some are not differs. But one of my guests is Mishko Heavry and he's 175 00:13:37,399 --> 00:13:43,320 the creator of Angular, jass and quick and now he is working as a 176 00:13:43,360 --> 00:13:50,000 ctoed builder that I own. So he created Angular within a big company, 177 00:13:50,080 --> 00:13:56,919 right, and you get access to resources you wouldn't have otherwise, you know, 178 00:13:56,320 --> 00:14:01,600 and yes it exists within a big enterprise, but it so many people 179 00:14:01,639 --> 00:14:07,759 benefit from Angular js just being available as a framework, So I don't see 180 00:14:07,759 --> 00:14:13,159 a problem with it per se, but sometimes it could be problematic, right, 181 00:14:13,399 --> 00:14:16,320 So yeah, I know, I think it's a great schism, and 182 00:14:16,360 --> 00:14:20,200 it's one of always our aspects we've been exploring, is trying to figure out, 183 00:14:20,320 --> 00:14:22,960 like, what are the right ways to go about this for folks, 184 00:14:22,159 --> 00:14:26,759 because they it does seem reasonable to want to make money from your work, 185 00:14:28,000 --> 00:14:31,519 yeah, and at the same time not be seen to be deceiving anyone either. 186 00:14:33,600 --> 00:14:37,320 I actually have a very hot take on this because I believe that the 187 00:14:37,360 --> 00:14:43,720 only way to do open source sustainably is to commercialize it. And the reason 188 00:14:43,759 --> 00:14:48,120 for that is because I work with engineers all the time, right, and 189 00:14:48,159 --> 00:14:52,120 I know that in the open source industry the burnout is very material. And 190 00:14:52,159 --> 00:14:58,440 if you're not being sustained by the project that you're investing your time and then 191 00:14:58,879 --> 00:15:01,240 like every single day base, how are you going to do it for ten 192 00:15:01,320 --> 00:15:05,480 years, for fifteen years? It's impossible, you know. And I've seen 193 00:15:05,600 --> 00:15:11,159 really amazing examples. For example, Mike Perham in robyin rail Space, he 194 00:15:11,240 --> 00:15:16,480 created Sidekick and Sidekick is the background jobs for Ryan Rails. It's very kind 195 00:15:16,519 --> 00:15:22,519 of well known in the Robin Rail's community, and so basically his approach I 196 00:15:22,519 --> 00:15:28,799 think is kind of the ideal situation for commercializing open source. He was working 197 00:15:28,799 --> 00:15:31,480 with Robyn Rails a lot. He found a problem and he's like, I 198 00:15:31,799 --> 00:15:35,840 want to create a solution for this, but in order to make it sustainable, 199 00:15:35,840 --> 00:15:39,600 I need to be smart about how I approach this. So what I 200 00:15:39,639 --> 00:15:43,039 want to do is, I want to make sure that it pays for my 201 00:15:43,159 --> 00:15:48,679 living so I can invest eight hours per day into creating an awesome product. 202 00:15:48,759 --> 00:15:54,120 And he started documenting his steps every single day, so at some point he 203 00:15:54,200 --> 00:15:58,639 created a product that was great. He is a great rogun Rail's engineer. 204 00:15:58,679 --> 00:16:02,879 Hey, you know, did a great product, and he kind of told 205 00:16:02,960 --> 00:16:07,279 his audience, look, guys, it's available for free right now. But 206 00:16:07,399 --> 00:16:11,440 to make sure that I'm able to do this for many years to come, 207 00:16:11,360 --> 00:16:15,960 I'm going to turn it into paid product. You can choose to stay on 208 00:16:15,039 --> 00:16:18,840 this free tier, but you know, I'm not going to maintain it anymore. 209 00:16:18,840 --> 00:16:22,919 And if you have any issues, you'll have to resolve them by yourself, 210 00:16:22,080 --> 00:16:26,200 right, But my capacity is limited and I want to make sure that 211 00:16:26,320 --> 00:16:30,919 my project, the Sidekick product, is amazing for years to come, and 212 00:16:32,000 --> 00:16:36,159 basically that's how he did it. And he is a one person show still 213 00:16:36,159 --> 00:16:40,919 and I think he is at like five million ARR at this point, and 214 00:16:41,000 --> 00:16:48,279 it's extremely impressive. He is able to do what he loves and it's you 215 00:16:48,320 --> 00:16:52,279 know, transparency in the way you approach it was important. Extremely h I 216 00:16:52,320 --> 00:16:56,559 would say extremely So. The two things that I notice that are extremely important 217 00:16:56,840 --> 00:17:03,480 boundaries setting various boundaries and being transparent about it. I think those are the 218 00:17:03,519 --> 00:17:07,359 two core values in commercial open source, right. I mean, we've certainly 219 00:17:07,400 --> 00:17:11,799 talked to folks who started out just making an open source thing and then hit 220 00:17:11,839 --> 00:17:14,400 this point where it's like, oh, I need to charge for this, 221 00:17:14,440 --> 00:17:18,880 and then people get really angry with it, like you but you know, 222 00:17:18,920 --> 00:17:22,640 at the same time, like the alternative is I abandon it? Like what 223 00:17:22,640 --> 00:17:27,519 do you want? It's actually crazy. Sou the principal front end engineer at 224 00:17:27,559 --> 00:17:32,319 Evil Martians, created posts. I don't know if you've heard about this, 225 00:17:32,440 --> 00:17:36,960 but it's it's it's a pretty well known framework in the front end world. 226 00:17:37,200 --> 00:17:42,680 What's it called post CSS? Okay, yeah, pretty much. I don't 227 00:17:42,680 --> 00:17:48,400 want to say all the frontenders use it, but it's a lot do and 228 00:17:49,319 --> 00:17:52,799 so it's not monetized, right, it's completely free, and he spends a 229 00:17:52,799 --> 00:17:57,480 lot of time maintaining this project along with others. And you know, the 230 00:17:57,880 --> 00:18:04,440 main source for folks like Andrea to receive money on that is to get donations 231 00:18:04,440 --> 00:18:08,759 from people you know that support his project, that use his project and their 232 00:18:08,799 --> 00:18:15,000 commercial products or whatever. And it's just twelve k a year, like you 233 00:18:15,039 --> 00:18:21,720 cannot you cannot survive. It's not sustainable. And one of the things about 234 00:18:21,720 --> 00:18:26,599 open source is that people are very vocal, but they're particularly vocal about things 235 00:18:26,599 --> 00:18:32,079 that don't work. So if you read negative comments, you if something breaks, 236 00:18:32,279 --> 00:18:37,599 you know about it down and it's really hard to stay motivated when you're 237 00:18:37,680 --> 00:18:42,079 drowning in this negative feedback. There's very little support that you get, you 238 00:18:42,119 --> 00:18:47,480 know, and the of the years, it's just becoming this burden. So 239 00:18:48,759 --> 00:18:52,000 I do believe that monetizing open source is the way to go, certainly way 240 00:18:52,039 --> 00:18:56,519 to support it. I mean, I'm looking at at post CSS and he 241 00:18:56,599 --> 00:19:00,960 has had a bunch of contributors over the years. I mean, clearly he 242 00:19:02,079 --> 00:19:04,000 does the vast majority of them. Yeah, I got to think that having 243 00:19:04,039 --> 00:19:07,640 some contributors helps. Yeah, I mean, people also help to adapt it 244 00:19:07,680 --> 00:19:11,039 to different frameworks. So it's kind of like the ecosystem is growing, but 245 00:19:11,119 --> 00:19:15,079 the core, the core code is mostly him. Yeah, and so a 246 00:19:15,079 --> 00:19:19,559 lot of these, you know, I'm surprised at how we used to looking 247 00:19:19,599 --> 00:19:22,160 at like a contributed graph, and so I had gotten to now it's like, 248 00:19:22,799 --> 00:19:25,920 how is this being worked on? It's like, oh, it's clearly 249 00:19:25,960 --> 00:19:30,359 one person. And then there's a dozen people that built something in a narrow 250 00:19:30,440 --> 00:19:33,880 period of time, probably you know, some of the cross platform inmentations and 251 00:19:33,920 --> 00:19:37,799 then went away. Yeah, you know, little spikes like that. It's 252 00:19:37,039 --> 00:19:41,119 it's a signature exactly. Yeah, for better or worse. You know, 253 00:19:41,279 --> 00:19:45,240 ten years, ten years he spent on POSTSS. Yeah, it takes a 254 00:19:45,279 --> 00:19:49,400 long time. Well, and also just the commitment. H and of course 255 00:19:49,400 --> 00:19:52,599 the answer to half the cursing and yelling is like would you like your money 256 00:19:52,599 --> 00:19:57,240 back? Really? You know it's free. What are you doing? Yeah, 257 00:19:57,279 --> 00:20:00,519 And he has a handful of projects. It's not just postess, it's 258 00:20:00,680 --> 00:20:04,759 a lot, So it really is, you know, a second job, 259 00:20:06,440 --> 00:20:10,119 yeah, easily. And but also I mean, I don't know that I've 260 00:20:10,119 --> 00:20:11,880 ever met Yeah, I don't think I've ever met Andre, but I have 261 00:20:11,920 --> 00:20:15,359 a sneaking suspicion of the kind of personality, like, because we've certainly met 262 00:20:15,400 --> 00:20:21,160 a few the folks that can do that and then tolerate a lot of abuse, 263 00:20:21,680 --> 00:20:25,200 Yeah, and still keep making a thing like they're an unusual breed. 264 00:20:25,640 --> 00:20:30,799 Yeah. I admire him. He's very strong. Sure, Yeah, keep 265 00:20:30,799 --> 00:20:34,599 doing the things that are important that you value and making a tremendous amount of 266 00:20:34,599 --> 00:20:37,720 software along the way. Yeah. But also, like how does he make 267 00:20:37,720 --> 00:20:41,440 a living? He works out of ill Martians, right, so that he 268 00:20:41,480 --> 00:20:47,000 also has a job on top of all. Exactly do you think sometime in 269 00:20:47,039 --> 00:20:52,319 the future, the way AI innovation is going that GitHub will have some or 270 00:20:52,400 --> 00:20:57,559 you know what, other repositories will have some sort of intelligence assistant that will 271 00:21:00,559 --> 00:21:07,039 suggest ways that you can improve your project, maybe even find bugs, maybe 272 00:21:07,319 --> 00:21:12,480 help as that sort of you know, help that maintainer do their job better 273 00:21:12,640 --> 00:21:18,480 or more productively. You know, there's one thing that AI lacks is the 274 00:21:18,559 --> 00:21:22,759 creative thinking, you know, the critical creative thinking. And I feel like 275 00:21:22,839 --> 00:21:26,440 engineers are really good at that. Like great engineers are really good at creating 276 00:21:26,559 --> 00:21:32,200 elegant, simple solutions for very complex problems. And I think the more advanced 277 00:21:32,240 --> 00:21:37,720 the engineer is, the simpler. The solution is so and I'm not sure 278 00:21:37,759 --> 00:21:41,200 if AI at this stage is capable of that per se. I don't think 279 00:21:41,200 --> 00:21:42,920 it is right now, but I mean, yeah, the way it's going, 280 00:21:42,960 --> 00:21:47,400 it's innovating it at quite a clip hopefully in the future. I mean, 281 00:21:47,440 --> 00:21:48,680 I don't know if it's a good thing, to be honest, I'm 282 00:21:48,720 --> 00:21:52,720 like, that's scared. I mean, I would also counter that concept of 283 00:21:52,039 --> 00:21:56,960 we've hit a wall, it seems with the large language model. Yeah, 284 00:21:56,039 --> 00:22:00,319 it's now big enough that there's very few places capable of running making a new 285 00:22:00,359 --> 00:22:06,200 one. You know, there's really no GPT five on the horizon. We 286 00:22:06,240 --> 00:22:11,200 need a new algorithm. I suspect I appreciate the tool for its idea to 287 00:22:11,240 --> 00:22:15,839 stimulate creativity in me. For sure that going from a blank screen to a 288 00:22:15,880 --> 00:22:19,920 bunch of copy, however messed up that copy may be, at least is 289 00:22:21,079 --> 00:22:25,000 stimulus for you know, how would you shape this up? What would you 290 00:22:25,000 --> 00:22:26,680 do with it, whether that's code or copy or whatever it may be. 291 00:22:26,799 --> 00:22:30,720 It's like, that's what these tools seem to be good at so far. 292 00:22:30,119 --> 00:22:37,559 Yeah, I'm also really hopeful about the image manipulations because, for example, 293 00:22:37,599 --> 00:22:41,920 my husband and I were creating an illustration book for kids, and we've used 294 00:22:42,079 --> 00:22:47,039 Judge Pity, you know, for some sense of direction for the text, 295 00:22:47,160 --> 00:22:51,680 but for the illustrations to get inspiration, to get quick kind of back and 296 00:22:51,759 --> 00:22:57,359 forth exploring, explore ideas quickly, cheaply. You know, mid Journey is 297 00:22:57,400 --> 00:23:03,440 like the perfect thing, and so at Evil Martians once again, we have 298 00:23:03,480 --> 00:23:07,720 a new product. It's called can Fi and basically you can think about it 299 00:23:07,759 --> 00:23:15,519 as ais system for documentation and support for the tools. So you know, 300 00:23:15,640 --> 00:23:19,240 some companies, especially when they deal with a different with a bunch of different 301 00:23:19,279 --> 00:23:25,160 languages, their support have to deal with a lot of tickets that are very 302 00:23:26,559 --> 00:23:32,559 time consuming because they're different, and they cover vast majority of questions and training 303 00:23:32,599 --> 00:23:37,119 a model to do that efficiently use previous experience, and you know, responses 304 00:23:37,359 --> 00:23:41,759 makes a lot of sense, especially when people take a screenshot of the code 305 00:23:41,799 --> 00:23:45,839 and they're like, what, you know, I run into a problem. 306 00:23:45,000 --> 00:23:49,640 How can you resolve this? I've had a lot of experience with GPT in 307 00:23:49,799 --> 00:23:56,640 various male us and I find that it does its best work at writing code, 308 00:23:57,440 --> 00:24:02,640 and you know, when you ask it to be an authority on something, 309 00:24:02,680 --> 00:24:07,519 it falls short and it can hallucinate, but code is something that it 310 00:24:07,559 --> 00:24:11,400 does very well, and it's very easy to verify and it's easy to test, 311 00:24:12,039 --> 00:24:18,799 and so I kind of think that there's a lot more innovation coming in 312 00:24:18,799 --> 00:24:22,640 in code writing and in code whatever you want to call it. Copilot is 313 00:24:22,640 --> 00:24:30,720 a great example of that, but I think that's where the real innovation is 314 00:24:30,759 --> 00:24:33,599 going to happen, hopefully in the future. I don't know the answer to 315 00:24:33,599 --> 00:24:37,759 that. I don't know the answer either, but that's that's my thought. 316 00:24:37,200 --> 00:24:42,039 I really like using AI. Should I even say AI? No, I 317 00:24:42,079 --> 00:24:45,680 don't know, GPT, I don't know. I don't know how to refer 318 00:24:45,720 --> 00:24:51,039 to the products because it's such a generalize yeah, and it doesn't mean anything. 319 00:24:51,599 --> 00:24:53,880 It's just like I'm so used to using it as a day to day 320 00:24:55,000 --> 00:24:59,279 kind of term, you know, but I understand that it's not the proper 321 00:24:59,359 --> 00:25:02,359 name for it, And a big concern for me is that everybody has a 322 00:25:02,359 --> 00:25:07,759 different interpretation of it. So it's like we're creating a larger delusion when we 323 00:25:07,960 --> 00:25:11,400 use these in precise names. And now cars are built with AI. It's 324 00:25:11,480 --> 00:25:15,920 kind of like the refrigerators with AI. It's like, come on, yeah, 325 00:25:15,000 --> 00:25:18,359 it's kind of like the craze with the web three. It's kind of 326 00:25:18,400 --> 00:25:22,039 the same thing, like nobody understands what it is, and people throw this 327 00:25:22,119 --> 00:25:26,599 word around not knowing what it really is. But anyways, I was going 328 00:25:26,680 --> 00:25:33,400 to say that I use language models and charge it between particular to actually save 329 00:25:33,480 --> 00:25:38,759 time on tedious tasks. That's what I prefer to use it for. And 330 00:25:40,119 --> 00:25:42,640 I think we can get a lot of help with that, you know, 331 00:25:42,720 --> 00:25:48,119 for developers, Yeah, saving time on task is always a good thing. 332 00:25:48,160 --> 00:25:51,759 Then it just makes it another tool, but they're still your tasks. Yeah, 333 00:25:51,839 --> 00:25:52,640 and these tools make it a little faster. I mean, I really 334 00:25:52,640 --> 00:25:56,160 appreciate your point of view on the image thing. And I've seen a few 335 00:25:56,200 --> 00:26:00,720 different types of projects where they use the generators to do the prototype imaging and 336 00:26:00,720 --> 00:26:04,799 then ultimately went to graphic artists to get originals drone that they can control the 337 00:26:04,839 --> 00:26:08,359 copyright on and all those sorts of things. But it was at least a 338 00:26:08,599 --> 00:26:14,599 tool to help you explore these ideas. And I got interrupt for one moment 339 00:26:14,640 --> 00:26:19,400 to this very important message. Hey Carl and Richard here, As you may 340 00:26:19,400 --> 00:26:25,880 have heard, NDC is back offering their incredible in person conferences around the world. 341 00:26:26,720 --> 00:26:30,440 NDC Porto is happening October sixteenth through the twentieth. Go to Eddcporto dot 342 00:26:30,480 --> 00:26:37,400 com to register and check out the full lineup of conferences at ndcconferences dot com. 343 00:26:37,440 --> 00:26:41,480 Hey Carl, here, we have some news from our sponsor, text 344 00:26:41,519 --> 00:26:45,720 Control. They just released version thirty two. Can you believe it? Of 345 00:26:45,759 --> 00:26:52,200 their document processing library, which includes new core functionality like document footnotes, SVG 346 00:26:52,319 --> 00:26:56,240 export, and much more. Integrate document editing, signing, collaboration, and 347 00:26:56,319 --> 00:27:03,200 PDF processing into your asp net, Core and Angular applications with tx text Control. 348 00:27:03,759 --> 00:27:08,200 Powerful libraries let your developer teams focus on their core competencies while text Control 349 00:27:08,279 --> 00:27:14,000 handles your digital document processing. Check out all the new features and see the 350 00:27:14,000 --> 00:27:22,119 technologies in action by visiting the live demo at demos dot textcontrol dot com. 351 00:27:22,240 --> 00:27:23,559 And we're back. It's dot at Rocks. I'm Richard Campbell. Let's call 352 00:27:23,640 --> 00:27:29,279 Franklin. Hey, Hey, hey, we're talking to Victoria melnik Kova. 353 00:27:29,640 --> 00:27:37,440 Sorry, a bit about evil Martians and this getting commercialized open source. So 354 00:27:37,680 --> 00:27:41,519 it's sort of a pattern then, of these startup companies building is it really 355 00:27:41,559 --> 00:27:45,680 open source tooling or building products that there happen to also be open source I 356 00:27:45,720 --> 00:27:51,400 think that the open source is just the philosophy or building products these days. 357 00:27:51,599 --> 00:27:55,720 I think it's just a more open, transparent, and I don't know, 358 00:27:55,799 --> 00:27:59,680 perhaps ideaitistic way to build products. Yeah, I mean, because the big 359 00:27:59,720 --> 00:28:03,599 texts now are mostly making a source product the same way like it's table stakes. 360 00:28:04,200 --> 00:28:07,119 I can't really sell this product if I don't like the source code. 361 00:28:07,160 --> 00:28:11,000 Open Yeah, for a lot of product anyway, not everything we sort of 362 00:28:11,039 --> 00:28:18,359 talked about the model of you're obviously about commercialization of open source. We've talked 363 00:28:18,359 --> 00:28:23,200 about the model of you know, limited by users, but that's not always 364 00:28:23,240 --> 00:28:26,720 the right model. What what are some of the other models that we haven't 365 00:28:26,759 --> 00:28:33,440 talked about of commercialization. So I think that like, for example, with 366 00:28:33,519 --> 00:28:37,039 image proxy, you can limit the number of instances. So if it's image 367 00:28:37,039 --> 00:28:41,400 optimization, you know, you can limit the amount of requests or whatever it 368 00:28:41,480 --> 00:28:47,559 is right that people can make. Because if a huge company uses image proxy 369 00:28:47,880 --> 00:28:53,039 you know, I don't know, yeah, for free, then it's a 370 00:28:53,079 --> 00:28:59,079 little bit of a poor example because I think with image proxy, the free 371 00:28:59,279 --> 00:29:03,759 option is limitless, but when it comes to the paid tiers, then the 372 00:29:03,799 --> 00:29:08,720 tiers are based on the number of instances that you spin up so and that 373 00:29:10,079 --> 00:29:14,000 relationship there with overhead for the company too, Like all of those things are 374 00:29:14,000 --> 00:29:17,799 being processed on their cloud account and they're paying for them. So you might 375 00:29:17,839 --> 00:29:22,519 call throttling one model, whether it's throttling by number of users or number of 376 00:29:22,599 --> 00:29:27,240 instances or a number of times that you can access that you can process an 377 00:29:27,240 --> 00:29:33,000 image. Yeah, then there is the consulting kind of model, kind of 378 00:29:33,039 --> 00:29:40,079 like red had. What red Head did does is when the product is free, 379 00:29:40,240 --> 00:29:45,000 but all the support and all the service around it is not right, 380 00:29:45,599 --> 00:29:52,119 and they're kind of incented to write bad documentation or make the products so complex 381 00:29:52,160 --> 00:29:57,519 that it requires your out in order to it's counterintuitive. Yeah, yeah, 382 00:29:57,960 --> 00:30:00,759 I'm always and I'm always looking for the righteous cycle there. Like we know 383 00:30:00,839 --> 00:30:03,880 why Microsoft gives away dot net and all those things because they want it to 384 00:30:03,920 --> 00:30:07,279 run on their cloud. And so if you're if you have access to all 385 00:30:07,319 --> 00:30:10,839 that product, you'll run it on the cloud and they've got to make money 386 00:30:10,839 --> 00:30:15,119 that way. It's not altruistic, it's a business. It is. And 387 00:30:15,160 --> 00:30:18,319 the same Google is the same thing with a bunch of their stack and at 388 00:30:18,400 --> 00:30:21,759 Google dot net there's not down on the Google cloud, yeah for sure. 389 00:30:21,759 --> 00:30:25,640 And Amazon of course. Yeah, I'm trying to think what other models are 390 00:30:25,720 --> 00:30:34,240 because I'm thinking about like sauce and but fast is an easy one. I 391 00:30:34,279 --> 00:30:40,519 mean you use it on our servers and we meter it and you pay for 392 00:30:40,559 --> 00:30:42,880 it. Yeah, and that it makes sense to limit the number of users 393 00:30:44,119 --> 00:30:47,200 number whatever. You know, you have a lot of control that way. 394 00:30:47,480 --> 00:30:51,920 Yeah. Yeah, And it gets more complicated to me when when you're writing 395 00:30:51,920 --> 00:30:56,319 a tool that lives inside of somebody else's product and you know, maybe they 396 00:30:56,359 --> 00:31:00,200 only use it a little bit and they don't need support because they're good at 397 00:31:00,240 --> 00:31:03,599 it and you haven't, and now it's ingraded into their product and helping them 398 00:31:03,640 --> 00:31:07,400 make money. Yeah. I hate to think it's like a resentment model. 399 00:31:07,519 --> 00:31:10,720 It's interesting because it has to deal with licenses, right, so you can't 400 00:31:10,759 --> 00:31:15,000 actually limit that capability with licensing. I'm not going to go into detail about 401 00:31:15,000 --> 00:31:22,519 that because they don't want to mess like any definition of license because you know, 402 00:31:22,599 --> 00:31:25,680 I was walking the words GTL too, right, because that's kind of 403 00:31:25,680 --> 00:31:29,799 what we're talking about. Yeah. The two typical ones that I hear about 404 00:31:30,160 --> 00:31:34,000 MIT license and aparty license, and MIT is the one that you can build 405 00:31:34,000 --> 00:31:41,319 on top of actually, so so with image proxy for example, somebody can 406 00:31:41,400 --> 00:31:45,200 buy a paid image proxy image proxy pro and actually build a product on top 407 00:31:45,240 --> 00:31:48,640 of it, and nothing is stop in them because that's the license. That's 408 00:31:49,279 --> 00:31:53,640 license, that's thet license. Yes, and I'm actually not sure. I 409 00:31:53,640 --> 00:31:59,119 think Apache is more restrictive, so Apache would not allow you to build on 410 00:31:59,160 --> 00:32:01,519 top of that, or I don't know, don't quote me on that. 411 00:32:01,960 --> 00:32:07,319 I'm not an expert in licenses, but if you are considering commercializing open source, 412 00:32:07,359 --> 00:32:12,000 you have to research those and choose the right model. Yeah, And 413 00:32:12,039 --> 00:32:14,759 I just wonder if we're not coming back around to some of these copy left 414 00:32:14,799 --> 00:32:17,160 conversations where it's like, listen, if you're going to include this, you 415 00:32:17,240 --> 00:32:22,119 need to make a deal. Yeah, you have to contribute and so on. 416 00:32:22,680 --> 00:32:24,599 And I think about again our listener at the beginning of the show, 417 00:32:24,640 --> 00:32:30,039 who wants to do the right thing in the open source It's like, I'm 418 00:32:30,160 --> 00:32:32,160 using open source product. I want to contribute back for the changes I need 419 00:32:32,200 --> 00:32:36,559 to make that will be value by the people in my company's impairing me. 420 00:32:37,519 --> 00:32:40,200 So you know, Jeff Atwood, the guy who one of our guys behind 421 00:32:40,200 --> 00:32:49,079 stack overflow, he branched off and wrote from scratch a version of that engine, 422 00:32:49,759 --> 00:32:55,839 that community forum engine called Discourse. And when we set it up, 423 00:32:55,880 --> 00:33:00,480 and by we, I mean Richard Morris and I for the Ketogenic forum, 424 00:33:00,960 --> 00:33:06,400 the license was if you want it, just download it. You can run 425 00:33:06,440 --> 00:33:09,839 it on your hardware, on your metal, completely free, no problem. 426 00:33:09,880 --> 00:33:14,440 But you'll have to, you know, manage it. And then they have 427 00:33:14,640 --> 00:33:19,119 various other levels of management as a SaaS product, right, and so we 428 00:33:19,279 --> 00:33:22,359 went we opted for that when money was coming in, and then when the 429 00:33:22,400 --> 00:33:28,119 money stopped, we went towards we we we put it on a box and 430 00:33:28,759 --> 00:33:31,319 so we have to manage it ourselves. But that you know, it requires 431 00:33:31,319 --> 00:33:36,599 care and feeding. Somebody's got to do that, trading time for money. 432 00:33:36,960 --> 00:33:40,319 But it's a great product. And I think you know that whole SaaS model 433 00:33:40,359 --> 00:33:44,200 of commercialization is really good. It's like, look, it's free if you 434 00:33:44,240 --> 00:33:47,079 want to run it, but if you don't want the headache, just caught 435 00:33:47,200 --> 00:33:52,519 up some money. Yeah, and it's convenient, but it's tricky for the 436 00:33:52,519 --> 00:33:55,640 engineers to figure it out. I think. So if you are just starting 437 00:33:55,680 --> 00:34:00,880 out your open source project and you want to commercialize it, I guess open 438 00:34:00,920 --> 00:34:06,839 core is the most straightforward solution or consulting. You mentioned open core before, 439 00:34:06,960 --> 00:34:10,119 but tell tell everybody what that is. So open core is when you have 440 00:34:12,360 --> 00:34:15,960 a free offering, something that's completely free and forever will be free, and 441 00:34:15,000 --> 00:34:20,519 that's open source. A great example of that is cal dot com. They 442 00:34:20,559 --> 00:34:25,039 have free tier for everybody who wants to use it. But if you want 443 00:34:25,079 --> 00:34:30,519 to use some i don't know, more advanced features that you need for sales 444 00:34:30,639 --> 00:34:34,840 or something else, or you need like a huge enterprise plan where you need 445 00:34:34,880 --> 00:34:37,320 to manage a team, then you would pay for it. Okay, So 446 00:34:37,559 --> 00:34:42,360 yeah, and it's you know, you think about cal dot com, it's 447 00:34:42,400 --> 00:34:46,800 about a shared calendar, and that's a pay product. So it's the obvious 448 00:34:46,840 --> 00:34:51,119 one. It's that's hugely valued, you know doing share calendar. Well it 449 00:34:51,159 --> 00:34:54,000 is hard. Yeah, that's you know, you pay for that capability for 450 00:34:54,079 --> 00:34:59,679 sure. And I always hope it's like and there's a common code base, 451 00:35:00,000 --> 00:35:01,199 the thing's passionate at the same time and so forth. It's just that the 452 00:35:01,239 --> 00:35:06,679 pro versions have more features. Yeah, they're all taking care of Yeah. 453 00:35:06,679 --> 00:35:08,880 That's the other model that we didn't talk about that tends to make people angry 454 00:35:09,000 --> 00:35:14,440 is when the free version is crippled in some way. And doesn't do all 455 00:35:14,480 --> 00:35:17,880 the things that everybody needs to do. I think that's just poor open core. 456 00:35:19,199 --> 00:35:22,039 I think that's just like, you know, a bad example of open 457 00:35:22,079 --> 00:35:27,599 core. Yeah, not even bad, it's like intentionally bad. Right. 458 00:35:27,719 --> 00:35:32,000 So do you remember when Microsoft did Visual Studio that way, like they crippled 459 00:35:32,079 --> 00:35:37,159 the free product, the community edition. Yeah, the Community Edition wasn't always 460 00:35:37,199 --> 00:35:39,639 as good as it is now. No. No, at one point it 461 00:35:39,719 --> 00:35:44,519 did you couldn't do well. I can't remember what it was. But there 462 00:35:44,559 --> 00:35:47,360 are some things that you just needed to do that you could and now the 463 00:35:47,400 --> 00:35:52,599 Community Edition you could do everything. It's perfectly capable, perfectly capable of doing 464 00:35:52,639 --> 00:35:55,679 everything. But yeah, you know, it's cripple wears and note of data 465 00:35:55,679 --> 00:36:00,760 concept. It's just not a good idea. Another example is platform or cloud 466 00:36:00,840 --> 00:36:05,039 offering. I think this is the newest one, like the hottest one, 467 00:36:05,519 --> 00:36:10,480 and one of the great examples is versaill. They have the cloud that you 468 00:36:10,480 --> 00:36:15,800 can use, but they also have I don't know, next JS and some 469 00:36:15,840 --> 00:36:20,199 other frameworks that you can use for free. So so not quite as turnkey 470 00:36:20,239 --> 00:36:24,280 as SAD, but it's interesting because it's kind of like neighboring products under the 471 00:36:24,280 --> 00:36:30,039 same umbrella. But one put them together. Yeah, yeah, and they're 472 00:36:30,239 --> 00:36:35,039 they're like a perfect match, so you're inclined to use them together, but 473 00:36:35,320 --> 00:36:37,400 it's not expected. Yeah, you know, And it's one of those things 474 00:36:37,400 --> 00:36:43,440 where you go down a certain path and gets some traction, get successful, 475 00:36:43,519 --> 00:36:46,440 and then you bump up to a paid version to get some more features, 476 00:36:46,480 --> 00:36:52,760 more capabilities. So yeah, it does make awful lot of sense. I 477 00:36:52,880 --> 00:36:57,559 just think that just because you're able to build good software doesn't mean you're able 478 00:36:57,559 --> 00:37:04,440 to manage open source project well less be able to manage the expectations of folks 479 00:37:04,480 --> 00:37:07,320 when you come to realize limitations like I'm going to need some money here. 480 00:37:07,480 --> 00:37:13,320 Yeah, I would even take it a step further because engineers left to engineer. 481 00:37:13,400 --> 00:37:19,000 They love to solve problems, and sometimes it's such a sweet path to 482 00:37:19,119 --> 00:37:22,320 take, you know, you can just be engineering, developing God in a 483 00:37:22,400 --> 00:37:28,719 way, you know, and then when you're if you're trying to monetize it, 484 00:37:28,920 --> 00:37:32,239 some challenges are very uncomfortable, Like you have to figure out sales, 485 00:37:32,400 --> 00:37:39,320 you have to figure out talking to people, getting feedback, uncomfortable conversations support, 486 00:37:40,199 --> 00:37:44,440 you know, people taking your open source project directions you don't want to 487 00:37:44,480 --> 00:37:50,159 take to take it, etc. So it's an interesting mental exercise. I 488 00:37:50,199 --> 00:37:53,119 think for many engineers to try to open source their projects, to try to 489 00:37:53,159 --> 00:37:58,360 commercialize their projects, and I think the best way to approach it is by 490 00:37:58,440 --> 00:38:04,719 building a community around it. And I think that the community shares the DNA 491 00:38:04,960 --> 00:38:09,920 of the creator a lot. So we spoke in the beginning. We spoke 492 00:38:09,920 --> 00:38:15,920 about boundaries and transparency, and I think those are the core features of open 493 00:38:15,960 --> 00:38:22,360 source too without having, you know, to be commercialized, because the way 494 00:38:22,519 --> 00:38:28,159 founder says the tone in the beginning of the community building will define the community 495 00:38:28,280 --> 00:38:31,719 itself. Yeah, it does. Again, we're asking people to plan for 496 00:38:31,800 --> 00:38:37,920 something they're necessarily planned for. But I es the just being open with your 497 00:38:37,920 --> 00:38:42,960 community is enough that you can change your mind and show why you're changing your 498 00:38:43,000 --> 00:38:47,360 mind and have a conversation with a be open to being persuaded to other methods 499 00:38:47,679 --> 00:38:53,760 exactly, and being kind because I think people who create open source are often 500 00:38:53,960 --> 00:39:00,119 more advanced engineers, but people who will be using your open source projects not 501 00:39:00,280 --> 00:39:05,719 necessarily advanced engineers, and haven't that mindset that things need to be explicit, 502 00:39:05,920 --> 00:39:10,440 things need to be digustible. You know, it's not you who is your 503 00:39:10,559 --> 00:39:16,199 core user perhaps almost certainly not. Yeah, and a great way to start 504 00:39:16,280 --> 00:39:22,280 that is to write a good read me. Yeah. Yeah. But you 505 00:39:22,280 --> 00:39:24,599 know, you bring an interesting point, which is the skill that grows you 506 00:39:24,760 --> 00:39:30,239 into a good open source maintainer and leader then also starts you down the path 507 00:39:30,280 --> 00:39:35,800 of a commercialization path too. Exactly. You're already being affected by the consumers 508 00:39:35,800 --> 00:39:37,559 of your product, and you're talking to them and interacting with them, and 509 00:39:37,639 --> 00:39:42,440 so you can add this other layer of conversation. I mean, the distinction 510 00:39:42,559 --> 00:39:46,199 being you are the expert in your own product, and you've got more confidence 511 00:39:46,239 --> 00:39:51,039 there to have a conversation about building a business planet so forth, where you're 512 00:39:51,079 --> 00:39:54,159 probably going to have less confidence. But it's still the same community, you 513 00:39:54,199 --> 00:39:58,079 know. I think there's there's an honesty to be had there too, to 514 00:39:58,199 --> 00:40:02,519 say I need to find and fix this, you know, in feedback. 515 00:40:02,679 --> 00:40:07,599 Yeah. And it's interesting because I think a good open source project starts with 516 00:40:07,679 --> 00:40:14,559 the real problem, with the painful problem, and if you actually are able 517 00:40:14,639 --> 00:40:21,719 to resolve it well and talk about it, then people will be inclined to 518 00:40:21,800 --> 00:40:24,800 support you and to even want to pay for that product. Yeah, give 519 00:40:24,840 --> 00:40:30,440 you room, you know, because once again I have conversations with deftil founders, 520 00:40:30,519 --> 00:40:35,880 and they talk about it all the time. Sometimes they start a project 521 00:40:35,880 --> 00:40:38,280 while they're working full time on another job. They just start an open source 522 00:40:38,320 --> 00:40:44,320 project and they get requests from users. Can I get this feature? Can 523 00:40:44,480 --> 00:40:46,320 you do this for me? Please? Can I pay you for this? 524 00:40:46,559 --> 00:40:52,039 Like this is so great? I'm happy with what it's doing. So it's 525 00:40:52,039 --> 00:40:55,400 definitely those two things go hand and hand. But you know, you also 526 00:40:55,440 --> 00:41:00,960 imply the contributor model for compensation doesn't seem to be enough money to matter, 527 00:41:01,239 --> 00:41:07,559 honestly, Like, okay, think about a huge project that has that uses 528 00:41:07,639 --> 00:41:12,960 I don't know, twenty thirty forty open source projects their dependencies, how to 529 00:41:13,039 --> 00:41:17,239 distribute those nations, Like it's such a such a tricky question actually to figure 530 00:41:17,280 --> 00:41:22,519 out, and I think there is no working solution for that. Maybe that's 531 00:41:22,519 --> 00:41:27,599 a good idea for a startup. I mean, I would like get hub 532 00:41:27,719 --> 00:41:30,039 to take charge of this in a meaningful way. Yeah, you know, 533 00:41:30,840 --> 00:41:37,000 yeah, there is a problem also that the analytics for open source projects is 534 00:41:37,079 --> 00:41:42,679 lacking. So actually, creators of open source they don't know how many people 535 00:41:42,800 --> 00:41:45,360 use their project right, how they use it, et cetera. So well, 536 00:41:45,400 --> 00:41:50,960 and when they've tried to find out they've gotten into trouble with their community 537 00:41:51,039 --> 00:41:54,639 because sure they're collecting data, they haven't got a right to reflect exactly. 538 00:41:54,840 --> 00:42:00,039 So it's kind of like a tricky situation. But GitHub does have that information, 539 00:42:00,360 --> 00:42:05,760 probably some of it anyway, some of it. Yeah, so GitHub 540 00:42:05,840 --> 00:42:09,760 is probably the only resource that could figure out monetization for it. I think 541 00:42:09,760 --> 00:42:13,159 they do sit in a special place. But also see, you know, 542 00:42:13,159 --> 00:42:17,039 we're headed down the path of a sort of GitHub enterprise mindset where we could 543 00:42:17,079 --> 00:42:22,840 make it easier for our company to see how much open source they depend on 544 00:42:22,159 --> 00:42:25,519 and how much they depend on it, and then they start putting some math 545 00:42:25,599 --> 00:42:30,119 around making contributions back to those projects they depend on. Yeah. You know, 546 00:42:30,159 --> 00:42:36,480 if you've got a library spread throughout your various internal applications, you want 547 00:42:36,519 --> 00:42:39,239 that product, that that library to stay healthy because it's gonna be a lot 548 00:42:39,239 --> 00:42:43,239 of work for you, for sure. You know, there's an ROI there 549 00:42:43,280 --> 00:42:46,840 that says a reasonable contribution will increase the likelihood you're not going to have problems. 550 00:42:46,960 --> 00:42:52,960 Yeah, another question is how do you reward contributors, you know, 551 00:42:53,000 --> 00:42:59,159 because okay, you're the author and creator, the main maintainer, but there 552 00:42:59,159 --> 00:43:01,800 are a bunch of other people that also contribute. How do you reward that? 553 00:43:02,039 --> 00:43:06,159 Yeah, Now, I would like it to get us to a situation 554 00:43:06,639 --> 00:43:09,159 where the original creator is making so much money that those contributors were annoyed with 555 00:43:09,199 --> 00:43:14,400 them. Yeah, because I would see that as progress. It's oh, 556 00:43:14,440 --> 00:43:17,199 good, we have a new problem because we are addressing the old problem. 557 00:43:17,280 --> 00:43:20,960 Yea, the good problem. Yeah, that would be a good problem to 558 00:43:21,000 --> 00:43:24,199 deal with about being generous to your contributors. And this little thing is like, 559 00:43:24,239 --> 00:43:28,239 I don't want us to stop me because that isn't solved. I'd like 560 00:43:28,280 --> 00:43:30,280 to create the next problem here. Yeah, so at least we can start 561 00:43:30,360 --> 00:43:32,920 hitting down that path and saying, wait, you know, what's the right 562 00:43:32,960 --> 00:43:37,519 things to do? Well hopefully. I mean my experience, people contribute to 563 00:43:37,559 --> 00:43:40,920 an open source project because they want attention, you know, they want to 564 00:43:40,920 --> 00:43:45,239 get noticed. Yeah, you know, and that's a good way to get 565 00:43:45,280 --> 00:43:49,880 noticed. Yeah, I mean, heaven, great open source on your portfolio 566 00:43:50,079 --> 00:43:53,159 is a great sign, right, I know that. For example, and 567 00:43:53,239 --> 00:43:58,679 j Son that I mentioned in the beginning of this conversation, he actually sends 568 00:43:59,159 --> 00:44:05,480 handwritten cards to his main contributors. I love that. It's nice. It's 569 00:44:05,480 --> 00:44:07,280 a nice touch, and it's not that many people like this. You know, 570 00:44:07,519 --> 00:44:12,239 he's not spending it a handful, it's probably like a hundred. Oh 571 00:44:12,280 --> 00:44:15,840 wow, Okay, let's getting up there. Yeah. I've a couple of 572 00:44:15,840 --> 00:44:20,119 trips to the stationary store. I've been contributing to a bunch of pat through 573 00:44:20,119 --> 00:44:22,840 Patreon to a bunch of things, and a few of them have done stuff 574 00:44:22,880 --> 00:44:25,400 like that where it's like he hop on my schedule for a half hour chat 575 00:44:25,679 --> 00:44:29,079 kind of thing. One on one. I'd like to ask you why you're 576 00:44:29,079 --> 00:44:31,639 contributing, you know, and I'm just like, that's really clever. Yeah. 577 00:44:32,599 --> 00:44:36,199 You know, somebody is going to go out of their way to make 578 00:44:36,239 --> 00:44:38,960 an effort towards your project to you go out of your way to take a 579 00:44:39,079 --> 00:44:43,599 back to them too. That's smart. That's a good community. Also, 580 00:44:43,719 --> 00:44:50,360 stickers work great, and the power of stickers collectibles, you know, laptop 581 00:44:50,519 --> 00:44:55,480 graffiti. I have sent pizza to a shop I have to that that kicked 582 00:44:55,480 --> 00:44:59,199 ass and took names from me on a thing and I made a couple of 583 00:44:59,199 --> 00:45:01,320 calls. You were a It's not how many people was It's like I just 584 00:45:01,559 --> 00:45:05,480 ordered a bunch of pizza, like thanks man, that's a nice touch. 585 00:45:05,840 --> 00:45:07,760 It's a good thing to do. It's you know, you're not going to 586 00:45:07,800 --> 00:45:09,000 do it every day. It's a lot of pizza, and the pizza shows 587 00:45:09,079 --> 00:45:15,800 up while they're eating their curry, you know. So it's a way to 588 00:45:15,800 --> 00:45:20,159 make make it. Try and make a contribution, do something to remind them 589 00:45:20,199 --> 00:45:27,039 you're grateful. So tell us about a recent victory that happened at Evil Martians. 590 00:45:27,159 --> 00:45:30,280 There's so many great things. Actually, today we have a launch and 591 00:45:30,360 --> 00:45:37,239 product hunt. Today we're launching, so I want to explain a little bit. 592 00:45:37,360 --> 00:45:44,480 So our designers are heavily invested in pushing the envelopes of working with color 593 00:45:44,519 --> 00:45:51,280 on web, and they have been really strong advocates of OKLSH color system. 594 00:45:51,519 --> 00:45:54,519 Basically, it's it's the new, most progressive way to work with color on 595 00:45:54,559 --> 00:45:59,760 the web. It allows you to use three gamu colors, which means that 596 00:45:59,800 --> 00:46:05,440 you get access to like thirty percent more colors on the web, and it's 597 00:46:05,559 --> 00:46:13,119 very easy to create accessible and colorful interfaces because you can just use numbers. 598 00:46:13,199 --> 00:46:16,519 So it's a very like predictable way to work with colors. And they have 599 00:46:16,599 --> 00:46:22,079 been creating awesome plug ins for Figma and palettes for people to use and break 600 00:46:22,119 --> 00:46:30,000 that barrier to entry. Nice for other designers and engineers to start using okao 601 00:46:30,039 --> 00:46:37,039 sh. So today we have a product hunt launch of Harmony Palette, which 602 00:46:37,119 --> 00:46:42,239 is the UI accessible palette based on okao sh. Wow. Congratulations, thanks 603 00:46:42,320 --> 00:46:45,639 cool. I just launched today. Wow, it's on right now, so 604 00:46:45,920 --> 00:46:50,559 wow, where can we go check that out? It's amy palette dot com. 605 00:46:50,800 --> 00:46:57,800 It's you can search Harmony Accessible Palette figma and it will give you the 606 00:46:57,840 --> 00:47:01,199 pigma file. Because it's available on I think Richard is busy finding it right 607 00:47:01,239 --> 00:47:08,239 now. It's also tailwind compatible and is available as an NPM package, so 608 00:47:08,280 --> 00:47:12,079 you can download it and play with it if you're a front and engineers. 609 00:47:12,400 --> 00:47:15,519 Cool. Awesome, So what's in your inbox? What's next for you? 610 00:47:15,840 --> 00:47:21,840 That Propulsion Labs Season two? I have some I can't even believe the guests 611 00:47:21,920 --> 00:47:25,719 that I got to have at this podcast, and I'm very excited about that. 612 00:47:27,039 --> 00:47:30,599 You like podcasting, it's interesting. Yeah, it's fun. It's fun 613 00:47:30,639 --> 00:47:34,840 to have conversations, sure is for sure. Yeah. Wow, that's great. 614 00:47:34,920 --> 00:47:38,400 Victoria mel Nakova, thanks for spending this time with us, and it's 615 00:47:38,440 --> 00:47:43,079 great to hear about your successes and we you know, we need to keep 616 00:47:43,119 --> 00:47:46,880 this conversation going about open source and commercialization and all of those good things. 617 00:47:46,920 --> 00:47:51,920 So thank you, thank you for him. You bet all right, We'll 618 00:47:51,920 --> 00:48:17,480 talk to you next time on dot net rocks. Dot net Rocks is brought 619 00:48:17,480 --> 00:48:22,639 to you by Franklin's Net and produced by Pop Studios, a full service audio, 620 00:48:22,719 --> 00:48:28,519 video and post production facility located physically in New London, Connecticut, and 621 00:48:28,599 --> 00:48:34,400 of course in the cloud online at pwop dot com. Visit our website at 622 00:48:34,480 --> 00:48:37,440 d O T N E t R O c k S dot com for RSS 623 00:48:37,480 --> 00:48:43,320 feeds, downloads, mobile apps, comments, and access to the full archives 624 00:48:43,400 --> 00:48:46,360 going back to show number one, recorded in September two thousand and two. 625 00:48:46,960 --> 00:48:51,119 And make sure you check out our sponsors. They keep us in business. 626 00:48:51,559 --> 00:48:55,039 Now go write some code. See you next time. You got your middle 627 00:48:55,199 --> 00:49:05,719 Vans and tip at his home in a Texas line as