Welcome to USO, thinks Tom Craigier with your host Alejandro Rojan. That is
correct. It is I Alandro Rojas, Hello, my friend, how are
you. It is wonderful to be here talking to you again, and that
is for many reasons, the number one reason being that I'm a little bit
embarrassed to say it, but and I hope this isn't freak you out.
But I love you. That's the big reason I'm here, because I think
I'm falling for you. I love all of my listeners here at UFO Think
Tank Radio, and I love that you're here to listen and that you're enthusiastic
and love this topic just like I do, which is just such a big
inspiration to get this information out for you and to have wonderful guests such as
our guest this evening, this guy flipping rocks, and that is Robert Powell.
He is the director of research for MOUF on the Mutual UFO network.
He has been such for a while now. In fact, if you've been
with the show for a while, you probably remember he is one of my
first guests and back when the Stephensville stuff went down. This is the guy
who, along with Glenn Schultzer, radar expert, got FAA data to demonstrate
that there was an unknown craft craft without a beacon identifier on it in the
area of Stephenville. It's like characteristics were peculiar, to say the least,
and the object was in areas where the witnesses said it was not all witnesses,
but many of them, so it corroborated a lot of the witness testimony.
And of course Stephenville was on this Chasing UFOs TV show thing that they're
doing on the National Geographic Channel, so I had him on. But really
that's not the main topic that me and Robert are talking about here tonight.
Really a large part of what we're talking about also is this incredible book that
he's been working on with some other researchers. And this book is on the
history of UFOs. You might be saying, well, that's pretty boring,
but this one is special because, well, the person he wrote it was
it's kind of exciting. And this is Michael Swartz, who is a scientist
and at the Western Michigan University and he's a professor of natural sciences, and
many other researchers. Maybe i'll read off the list a little later, however,
the point being that what they did is they went and found a lot
of government documents. So this is mostly US but also other governments, and
so this tells a story as far as US government documents. And I'm not
talking about, you know, some of the more dubious documents of unknown origins,
like anonymously leaked documents, So I'm talking about documents that have been found
via boy of requests, or documents they went and found themselves in universities at
various libraries throughout the country, or documents that other researchers had found or discovered
on their own. So that's really exciting because there are a lot of files
out there that are surprising. You know, we hear about these stories of
these guys in the military having sightings, chasing UFOs, being told to shoot
at UFOs. We've heard some of these stories. So they went and found
documentation of these cases, and these are government documents demonstrating that how serious that
this this phenomena is taken by the military. So I think this is going
to be a very significant book. It includes something I think he says,
like over two hundred pages of photos. It's a very big book. Five
hundred plus pages long. So I'm excited about this book, and that's why
I wanted to have Robert on to talk more about it. Plus I hadn't
had him on the show in a while. He's a great guy, so
this will be a lot of fun. So we got good stuff speaking of
of course, exciting things that I like to do for you all and for
the greater community here on the planet Earth. That's right, it's a interplanetarian
scope at least my intentions and towards helping out, you know, all humans
and whoever's visiting. I don't discriminate if there's people from other cosmosis, COSMOSI
other places utter than Earth, that's cool with me. Man, welcome the
more of the merrier. Just come say hi, and you know, let
me in on what's going down. But my point here being that, of
course, as you know, I've got the conference going on, Cosmic Exploration
conference. It's you know, we have scientists and professors discussing space mysteries and
UFOs. And I'll tell you what that we do have a couple people well,
and I you know, a couple means too, and I'm not even
sure that we have that many that are skeptical when it comes to the UFO
phenomena. That demonstrates and I have more than the couple scientists. I'm like
half of the the speakers have PhDs in or our professors or scientists. So
this demonstrates, you know what I've been saying for a long time. Scientists
are interested in all of this stuff. And so we'll get them together to
talk and you know, get some insight. And I think what it's shaping
up to be is that the special perspective that is going to be given at
this conference is not so much if the phenomena exists, if there is extraterrestrial
life. However, how will we react when we discover officially extraterrestrial life and
when we and this isn't me talking this when we stuff this is you know,
these guys, these these people who are speaking when we discover intelligent civilizations
out there and how we would react. And these are sociologists and psychologists,
very qualified people to be speaking on the subject. And I think it's going
to be particularly special environment that when we have this academic space, this academic
environment, to discuss this topic in a very serious manner. So I feel
that this is going to be and I've been going to conferences for a while.
I've helped put on conferences, but this one in particular, I'm excited
about because I think it's going to be very unique and historically significant looking back,
especially when since I think we're right around the corner for at least discovery
of some sort of life, so very exciting stuff. I hope you come
and join us. If you can't join us, there's also a kickstarter.
If you go to cosmicex dot com or if you go to Ufodaily dot com,
there's a kickstarter just for the month of July, and this is for
me to raise money. So if you can't come that, you can get
a DVD. So you can go to this kickstarter. You can go to
UFO Daily News dot com. You'll see it there on the right hand side
the kickstarter project. You can purchase DVDs through this kickstarter at a very low
price, and that helps me gain the funding so that hopefully I can get
the equipment to make DVDs. So and I've also had some offers for people
who want to help, and thank you very much, and we'll definitely be
in contact. So that's some that's going on with the conference, and I've
been so dang busy, i haven't really gotten a whole lot of stories.
Well I haven't, yeah, had stories up on the UFO Daily News dot
com. However, I have kept up with the news feed, so I'm
sending out UFO News, like I say, on a regular basis. And
if you go to the news feed link there, you're gonna see tons and
tons of stories from the mainstream press. So check that out. And in
fact, you know, I'm going to go over these stories in just a
second as we usually do on the show, and a couple all these stories
have some videos that are kind of fun or at least some good stories here,
so I'll get those up soon. Okay, I promise you all at
UFO Daily News. Otherwise you can go to the site and see them there.
But one of the things I want to talk about is getting into UFO
News. Should I And you can email me a couple of things if you're
listening right now and I see your email before the end of the show.
I will then refer to them at the end of the show. However,
here's a couple and if you're not listening live, like ninety percent of you,
you're listening on your podcast, or you're a Google player or some other
way. Email me anyways, I want to know two things. What you
think of the Chasing UFO show from National Geographic. I'm having a hard time
getting out a beat on what people think, although yeah, i'd have to
say, like our guests last week, I have heard some criticism, but
maybe you like it. Let me know. I don't know, because I'm
on it with my good buddy Jason McClellan on the twentieth, and I hope
that at least people like that episode, or at least like my part Jason's
part. Jason's always a lot of fun. But anyway, I want to
hear your thoughts on that, and I also want to hear so I started
with the other thing that I really wanted to hear from from you all,
which just a Jason GUFO think. Because I can't remember the other I already
forgot it. So yeah, send me some info and let me know what
you think. And the email address you could use just A Lejandro, A
L E J A N D r O or info I NFO at UFO Daily
News dot com, and that'll be great because I want to hear your thoughts
there, so you can only imagine my thoughts. Well, here's the other
one. Do you think I should make some UFO news music to transition into
UFO News. Nothing to you know, whacky or or silly, but just
would that be nice? Do you think? Speaking of UFO News, we
used to have this funny little guy named Jason McClellan on the show doing that
with me when I work for Open Minds. He is currently working for Open
Minds now and I don't want I'll put it this way. If you want
him to be back on the show, like I do, ask Open Minds,
he's got to get permissions to do that, and so send them an
email and hopefully he'll be back on the show. But he's doing his own
little web series with the Lovely Marine Ailsberry and if you've seen her, well
many people comment on the Lovely Marine. And what's so funny about this is
that when I stopped working for Open Minds, somebody in an email said,
oh, man, I can tell there was some tension there. No,
there's no tension. There's only love. I love those guys there, my
buddies. No tension between Jason and Maureene and I We're all very good friends
and I still keep in contact with them, So why am I talking about
him? You're like, Okay, what is he going on about Jason Maureene
for this little love fest here. It's because Lee Spiegel, our speaker from
our guests from last week. He wrote a story about Jason and Marine and
their web series Spacing Out, where they do some news about space and UFOs
and a short little segment that they put up on YouTube. That's my point.
You can imagine my surprise. He didn't even tell me he was doing
this when on July fourth, I look at Huffington Post Weird News just to
check up, and there's my two buddies right there, big picture of him
smiling away. Freak me out. So pretty cool that he did that,
So you can check that out. However, there's another story that mister Lee
Spiegel has done in the last week, and in fact, this just popped
up yesterday. He did a special interview with Chase Brandon, a thirty five
year CIA veteran. I told you a little bit about this story before,
because this gentleman was on coast to coast and my buddy Robbie Graham from Silver
Screen saucers. He wrote ran a story on this, and in fact,
he sent me a story on this to post on my site, so I'll
have it up soon. And about this Chase Brandon guy, the CIA veteran,
he was really excited about it, No wonder why. So. Lee
had also caught him on Coast to Coast and had scheduled an interview and also
did his own research into this guy. So I talked to Lee pretty regularly
and we talked in depth about this this guy and Lee did a lot of
research he found. You know, this guy certainly did work for the CIA.
He had the unique position for a while of being an entertainment laison.
I'm not quite sure what he means by that. I would love to find
out more. He has written a book on Roswell that is science fiction that
is not true. However, on Coast to Coast and now with Lee,
he has confirmed that, yes, I do believe there were aliens that had
crashed to Earth in an alien spacecraft in Roswell. He says he believes this
because when he was at a place, it's kind of a historial coal archive
for the CIA. He says, it's nothing like the Indiana Jones warehouses,
and that's what it feels like when he talks about that. But it's really
just these smaller cardboard boxes. And he used to visit this place often and
do research for various different things, and one day he ran across a box
simply labeled Roswell. He opened the box and he saw pictures and other things.
He doesn't describe them in detail, unfortunately, which I'm not sure why
he doesn't do that. It'd be nice if he did. But all he'll
say is that these pictures did confirm to me that this crash in Roswell was
real, was extraterrestrial, and there were cadavers recovered. Pretty interesting news.
If this guy is making it up, well, and I mean you can
speculate that he's making it up to sell books. Some people think, you
know, he's been in the CIA so long. Why would he hurt his
credibility? Why would he do that? Of course books equals money, but
still he really was in the CIA, so it's very intriguing. It kind
of reminds me of Colonel Courso, of course, another very credible person who
was a colonel in the Army and worked at the Pentagon, and he said
he had worked with pieces from Roswell. He was given this box full of
pieces and they said that this stuff's from Roswell. Figure out what we do
with it. While he's working at the Pentagon. So another very high level
witness who has come force, and it's very no bones about it. Yep,
there were extrasturals in Roswell, and I know this because in my work
at the CIA, I saw the evidence. Hopefully we can get him on
the show and I will ask him some more details and questions about all of
this. But a very very interesting story indeed, and in fact, it's
so interesting that Fox News picked it up today, so did the Daily Mail
out in the UK, and I'm sure probably more will. So it looks
like this story is going to go viral. Very interesting. Speaking of the
videos, real quick here so we can get into the interview that I mentioned
earlier. There is eighteen and New Freedom and York County, Pennsylvania who took
a video. Now the video is kind of it's just with his phone.
It's a blinking light, but it's kind of interesting. He's a nineteen year
old physics major at Duquane University, an Eagle scout, and he saw this
video. He wrote a sci fi novel when he's fifteen, and this thing
looks very professional, very it seems like a very intelligent kid, you know.
And he says he saw some strange lights flying around. He caught him
on video on his phone, but of course his resolution is so poor you
can't really tell much. But it's an interesting story that the news ran on
this, you young gentleman. Also on June twenty first, a surfer captures
a UFO on video and this is in Australia, and this is interesting because
it is about a ten minute video and it is this orangish, reddish looking
light that is kind of flickering, which would make me think that perhaps it
is a Chinese lantern. However, you know, those things don't last,
at least when I've messed with them. They only last ten fifteen minutes.
So kind of an interesting story. But this guy, when he saw him
and his friends were very convinced that it was something abnormal, possibly a plasma
ball, but he thinks most likely it was an extraterrestrial spacecraft. Very interesting.
Speaking of extraterrestrial stories, there is a scientist you might have read this
who speculates that aliens may look like jellyfish, says, most likely they do
that in a lot of these atmospheres that are much thicker. For example,
he says, a methane atmosphere, the sinks could float around scooping up chemicals
and nutrients into their big, gaping mouths. And of course this made a
lot of news, this theory about these jellyfish. Here's a story I really
liked, and this was in Montana, the Lake County Leader. And this
guy was writing about UFOs a lot of stories on National Geographic and ABC News
and he wrote about but did you know about the UFOs scene in Montana in
the summer nineteen sixty six. He continues to write, his name is Paul
Fugelberg, about these sightings in nineteen sixty six from late June to late July
that he covered. He's a reporter and he wrote about them. He says.
He complained in his article that he hadn't seen any of these alleged UFOs.
Then that night he saw one. He saw one of these things.
He said, it was too low and too fast to be a satellite.
He happened to run to grab his camera and was able to snap a picture.
And he's got this picture It is a low resolution, but he's got
it posted on his story here. And you see this bright light looks like
it's over a pole. There's some electrical wires going by in a tree and
a cloud up there, and you see this very bright light. So very
interesting. This reporter saying, hey, you know, I've seen a UFO
too. I wrote about him in the sixties and then I saw one of
those suckers. And he's pretty much saying, hey, have you seen one
of these? Let me know? So very interesting. This is in the
Lake County Leader, and well, that's about the most recent really interesting news
that we've had. So remember, you can find all of this at ufodailynews
dot com. If you go to the UFO newsfeed, you're going to find
links to all of these stories. And then soon here in the next few
days, I'll get this story up from my buddy Robbie Graham on the Chase
Brandon thing. But you can go to the Huffington Post Weird News to see
that, and then I will also get up these video stories because these videos
are interesting. However, for now, let's talk to my buddy Robert Powell.
All right, I am happy to be speaking with a good move on,
buddy of mine. Robert Powell, Hello, Roberts, Hi Ali Hondro.
It's great to talk to you again. I'm glad you're our public relations
director at moof On now. Yeah, it's good to be back, because
you know, it was it was a lot of fun working with you back
in those days, and so I'm happy to be back. Those were good
times. They were I enjoyed them a lot. Mm hmm. And one
of the good times was related to Stephenville. And I wanted to talk about
this just for a minute because the because you did some incredible work he was
Glenn Schultz, and also because it was on the television show Chasing UFOs recently,
so some people might probably saw that. Who are listening so into Stephenville
craziness? You know. One of the things that was great, which you
know was a seminal piece of I think Moufon work over all, is that
you, with Glenn Chalter radar expert, were able to grab some data from
the FAA to demonstrate that there was an anomalous object in the area and that
some of the witness testimony was corroborated by the data you had found. Yeah,
we were fortunate in being able to get that data from the FAA.
And what was really nice is to have so many witnesses over such a geographic
area that wasn't that was spread out in these witnesses for seeing these objects at
different times, but all during that same evening, and so that really made
it worthwhile to go get the radar data because we had good witnesses to correlate
it to, and probably to me, the most interesting one of all was
the constable who had seen the object just south of his home. He estimated
two miles and on radar we picked up an object roughly two miles south of
his home at the time that he saw this object, and that was really
exciting to see that well, and the data you had showed that it was
moving extremely slow at times, possibly very fast at times. And also you
were able to track the jets that were in the area because there really were
jets doing an exercise near by. Yeah, I mean, actually that was
the very first thing we did before we went looking for any unidentified objects in
the radar data. The first thing we did was we tracked the jets through
the entire four hours we had that information, so that way we knew where
the jets were at all moments of time, and once we got thin nailed
down, then we went looking for objects that did not have transponder identification and
we match those up with the witnesses. And if I remember correctly, you
even the jets went out to the exercise area returned to the base. However,
one of those jets made a detour near where the sightings were. Is
that correct? That's right, you remember pretty well. There was there was
a pair of jets. And you know, for people who are familiar with
geography, this will hit them right away, especially the geography of Oklahoma and
Texas. But the Dallas Fort Worth area is in north far north Texas,
almost at the Oklahoma border. Well to these jets head to the northwest,
and they travel probably about one hundred to one hundred and twenty miles and they're
doing exercises basically due west of Oklahoma City. Well, when they're done with
their exercises, they don't go back to the Dallas Fort Worth area to what
we used to be called Carswell Air Force Base and go back there. They
actually go due south and travel halfway into Texas into the area where Stephenville and
Commanche and Dublin are located, and they don't do any exercises in the military
operating area there. They just fly south, fly over those cities, and
then head back to their home base. So it's almost like someone said,
why don't you guys go down there and check out what's going on. Was
this during the time of the sightings or soon after? This was soon after
most of the sidings occurred. The first two waves of jets there were four
in each squadron, had already gone down in where already had been in the
Stephenville area and were returning. And we're either almost back to Dells Worth or
had already returned at the point in time that the two jets in Oklahoma came
down due south. Wow. Yeah, so that's really interesting. And here
again corroborates witness testimony of saying they saw jets after this this anomalous object.
Yeah, afterwards, not chasing, I don't like, but exactly that's what.
Yeah, you got that right. They weren't chasing after the UFO,
but they saw the jets later on, right, So interesting data. And
then real quick on the movement of the craft the unknown object that you all
had found in the radar data was that correct. It moved really slow and
I think there was a gap where which could indicate fast speed, but perhaps,
but at least there was a for the most part, a consistent pattern
of this thing moving straight. Yeah. Well there's uh. We picked up
this object three different times, and the one time when we picked it up
southwest of the constables home. He's the one who describes the whole series of
lights that were dancing around and then they came together and then just took off
at an extremely high rate of speed towards Dublin, which was just north of
his home. What was interesting is the object that was just south of his
home that was barely moving. All of a sudden, the next radar blip
that we got was clear up north into the Dublin area, and you can
calculate the speed at which it moves and the speed it moved that that was
nineteen hundred miles an hour, and so that corroborates what the constable said said
he saw. And then what you were referring to that straight line, that
was that path that was headed towards Crawford Grant where we had we had over
one hundred and forty radar hits on that object, and at times it would
not move, and then there were times where within a ten second time span
it went from basically not moving to five hundred and forty five hundred and fifty
miles an hour, which is faster than that least well even like a commercial
jet would fire right or and maybe might maybe not as fast as a military
jet. But of course those things you were able to tract as he had
transponders. Well, right, the jets, the lead jets we could track
because they had transponders. But for any object to go from basically a standstill
to over five hundred miles an hour in ten seconds, that's a very high
rate of acceleration. And then, to make it even more interesting, ten
seconds later it had deaccelerated down to like thirty or forty miles an hour,
and then you wist track of it near it was headed towards the Crawford Ranch,
but last track of it because the data was only for us that period
of time. Right, we just have four hours of data, and our
data ended at eight pm Central Standard time, and at that point in time,
the object was about five to six miles from Cropper Branch, but it
was on a straight line there, so I'm sure within another ten minutes would
have been there. And one thing that wasn't in the original report, Alejandro,
is about six months later I identified two witnesses and I went and talked
to them. They lived about a mile They lived a mile and a half
from Cropper Branch, and that evening they were riding their bikes. It was
a husband and wife and they saw an object because they could see Crawford Ranch
from their home and they saw an object. They discrete is like taking about
six jupiters, so six very bright nighttime objects and just lining them up horizontally,
so it had a lot more with than Jupiter has, but that level
of brightness, and it was slowly descending. And then they said the next
thing, it just made a ninety degree turn and moved parallel to the ground
and was gone. And they said, roughly a blink of an eye.
Wow, now you've said that since Oh, And you know, I just
like to throw this in here because just I think it was interesting and I
like to, you know, give credit where credits due. But startingly,
for me, there was so little attention given to your report because well,
at the time, you know, I was doing the pr like we talked
about, and I was working with all of these to make sure they were
getting interviews with our guys in Texas and everything, and making sure all the
stories had mouf on on them. You know that we're talking about Stevenville because
it was such a big story, and in fact, it was our investigators
going to putting together this meeting in Dublin where they said, you know,
these UFO researchers are descending on Dublin. And it turned out, you know,
there was more media and more camera than there were investigators or witnesses.
But you know, afterwards, I had sent the report to or at least
a press release and some information to the AP lady who broke the story and
made it big in the first place, and I know she wrote something it
wasn't very big, and a couple of other places kind of mentioned it,
but it didn't get that much attention. And really the most attention it got
was on Larry King when you were able to be on there with Glenn,
and that was in things largely too. Angela Joyner as a reporter down there
in Stephenville or was she Dublin, No, she was Stephenville and Stephenville yeah,
and she was the one who broke the story and you know, Larry
King was doing a whole episode on this and UFOs and she was the one
who really told them, you got to have you know, these move on
guys on, you got to have Robert Pollan and Glenn because they did this
incredible radar study and thanks to her, we got on there or you got
on there. Yeah, and at that you know, at about that same
time. To give your audience kind of a feel for the time frame that
this event occurred on January eighth of two thousand and eight, the big meeting
in Dublin was on January nineteenth, and that's when all the press came and
it really hit the national wire and news during that week, which was you
know, getting towards the latter part of January. Well, it took us,
took Glenn and I until late June early July to complete all of the
analysis of that radar data. It wasn't something we could just rapidly do.
Well at that point in time, you sent out a bunch of you know,
information to try to get attention from the national media, and Angela Joiner
did also. She sent out i think multiple packets to different media organizations,
and there was really no interest in it in it mostly because I think they
were excited because of what happened in January, but by the time June or
July rolled around, you know that they weren't excited about a radar report.
True, And luckily Larry King was going to cover the He was doing a
lot of UFO stuff around that time, so luckily he was going to do
his special on it, so we're at least able to get some recognition for
him, because I think that was a really important study. It was good.
And that was the Larry Kink Show where he had from a SETI on
seth Shusts shust Deck was on and you know what's funny about the debates on
that episode and on the show was that the pro UFO guys and the skeptics
like Shostak, they really weren't too far apart. And it's unfortunate that sometimes
people think they have to take a oppositional type of stance where everything isn't always
a debate. You can agree, it's okay to agree on some things,
and uh to point out when you agree, and I mean, they were
not really discounting your work at all. They were just saying, you know,
there could be other answers, but and that's a fair perspective. Yeah,
yeah, you're right, And that is what Seth said. He did
not make any arguments against the work that Glenn and I did. He just
said, well, maybe there were some other explanations, and he didn't really
have any viable explanations. He was just saying, well, maybe something else
caused it, right, And so in the aftermath, I mean, since
have there been any new developments or any new information or discovery that way now
on the Stephenville case, there hasn't been. The one thing that's interesting is
that ever since that case, the FAA no longer will allow us to have
their raw radar data. And the reason they give now is that they say
it's a threat to the National Airways to give that information out. So the
only type of radar data you can get from them now is it's basically a
type of radar data that's been filtered through their algorithms. But you can't cannot
get their raw data. It's what the raw data is what they call E
writ E R I T data. And they probably do you think they really
thought you, you guys, what they were going to do, because what
this data is is, right, a lot of single data points, like
tons and tons of pieces of information that you have to painstakingly analyze and put
together. It's not an easy process. So why do if they even thought
you would do this worse? Yeah, I don't think so. I don't
think they had any idea we would. And then probably what got them concerned,
you know, possibly more than anything else, is that in the report
we identify the locations of all the f sixteens, where they went, when
they left, when they came back, where they were in relation to the
witnesses, So that that that may have been a concern to them. I
don't know, right, So interesting, And you said you've worked with you're
working with someone now though to anime the Uh yeah, uh. There's a
guy in North Carolina by the name of Russ Tiddall and he's a computer programmer,
and I worked with him and he wrote a program that basically allows me
to put in the radar data and then you get a visual animation of a
radar screen and you see where the radar site is, you can see the
jets coming in, you can see the unknown object. Movie. I did
that because for most audiences, uh, seeing something like that is more meaningful
to the than the original Excel files that Glenny d that is very cool and
when will that be done? I've already completed some of it already, I
bet Russ's he finished his program and I entered in the Stephenville data and so
you can actually see it in real time as you look at the writar screen.
How cool. That's really cool? And how do people see that or
is there a the ability for the public to see that yet? I have
not put it on YouTube or done anything like that. Maybe I should.
I have presented it a couple of times, once at a conference that I
was with with Angela up in near the DFW area Dallas Fort Worth area,
and then one in San Antonio at a conference they're represented. How cool.
That is so cool? Yeah, I'd love to see that. Yeah,
I'll show it to you. I think you'll enjoy it. All right,
Well, moving on from Stephenville. You know, thanks for the update and
the overview on that. I just wanted to cover it because of the chasing
UFOs, which, speaking of which I don't think they covered the radar data
either. I know they interviewed Angela Joiner. But I think you said you
weren't able to catch the episode, so you're not fully versed on everything on
it. But you know you weren't on it, right, That's the one
thing you know for sure. I know that, which is too bad because
that would have been a great piece if they would have had the information on
the radar. Hopefully you know, Angela talked about it and they covered that.
But another reason, another interesting development is this book that you and others
have been working on for a couple of years now that I have been anxiously
anticipating and so excited to get my hands on, and that's a book called
the UFOs and Government, a Historical Inquiry. Maybe you could talk about some
of the other people who worked on this book and how you compiled this.
Okay, yeah, I would be glad to Alejandro. Let me say first
that the goal of this book was not your typical UFO book. The goal
is for it to be an actual historical book with facts, endnotes, bibliographies.
It's a it's like a great reference book on UFOs and government, and
we tried to be as factual as we can throughout the book. The UH
and we've got some great authors. It took us over four and a half
years to finish this. We we met together as a team, you know,
we broke out and did various parts of the various chapters. We have
over two hundred photographs in the book. So it's a it's really a great
book, if if I can say so. Some of the authors was Michael
Swords. He's he was probably a primary author. And Mike is a professor
out of Michigan. I think it's I don't recall if it's Eastern Michigan University
that he's a professor at. But Mike is a great historian and he has
a PhD and has done great work in that area. He has got a
room. I went to his home. He's got to room the size of
my living room that is solid books, file cabinets. It's unbelievable. Wow.
And then there's myself as an author. We have Klaus Spahn, who
was one of the premier researchers of UFOs in the country of Sweden. And
then uh the Sinte Juan Baluster almost who's a Spanish researcher. Bill Chalker,
you probably a part of Bill. He's out of Australia. And then of
course Barry Greenwood, he's in the US, but Barry's Uh, A lot
of people are familiar with Barry Richard than who actually gives conferences all over the
world. He goes to Hacker conferences. Oh wow, Yeah, so he
talks to Hacker conferences about kind of the world behind everything. Jan aldrich who
has probably done more research at the National Archives and the University Archives than anyone
alive today. And Steve Purcell and Steve I believe what used to be the
state director of Tennessee for muf on and Steve also has a historian bent to
him. And together all of us put this book of five hundred and eighty
pages together. How cool? I mean, that is just really exciting.
And I mean what you based it off of? Right? Was it was?
Is it purely based off of docum? Yes? It is purely based
off of government documents either fo you documents, all the types of government documents
we could get our hands on back up everything that we have in the book.
But then I should note documents that have solid what is the word I'm
thinking of here? Uh? The credibility is very high in which you know
that these are government documents, right, right. These are these are government
documents where it's not where there's no doubt about the document. So the you
know, these are all clear cut like the Bolander membo. They're all documents
like that provenance. That's what I'm thinking of. So and we have I
would say we probably have over a thousand references throughout the book because every chapter
has on average, i'd say around forty to fifty in thoughes where we reference.
There's indultes throughout the book, so you can see whenever we make a
statement that requires documentation, it's in the book. So there's a lot of
original sources in here. How cool, I mean, this is just so
exciting, so many people working on such an important effort. And that's what
I mean. I mean, it's how like you said, a great reference
for solid, solid information that is essentially I mean, it's not just you
know, like the MG twelve documents, where a lot of their providences is
under question because they're allegedly leaks documents. These are documents that come from you
know, the source, and the source is certainly government, where they're indisputable.
Right. Yeah, these aren't ones that I've ever heard any want to
make arguments about but they're still exciting information, right, I mean, how
far does it go back? We start with World War II and the food
fighters, and we really weave a story of history and how the government originally
reacted. I mean, in the beginning, when US pilots were seeing these
balls of light in the European theater as well as the Pacific theater, but
more in the European theater, the US government's first thought was, is this
some new type of Nazi or Japanese weapon, maybe some type of surveillance system.
And as soon as the war was over, the US government sent scientists
to Germany and to Japan and interviewed they're scientists to try to figure out what
were those Was this some new weapon they had that we want to get our
hands saw, And the response we got from the Germans was we thought it
was yours. And so that begins the story, and from there it goes
into the ghost rock hit episodes that occurred in the Scandinavian countries immediately after World
War Two, and a lot of the thought there was, well, somehow
the Russians, the Soviets who had obtained Nazi knowledge, because right the United
States and Russia, we were and of course at the end it was Soviet
Union more than Russia. We didn't really call it Russia. Both countries were
trying to steal all the Nazis scientists they could get. And a lot of
people don't know that, but that's how the United States and Soviet Union developed
their space programs was by getting Nazi scientists. So that was a concern when
the ghost rockets started, and they called them the ghost rockets back in forty
six. So we talk about that and we go through the evidence you know,
that exists, how the United States government reacted to it. We then
go into nineteen forty seven where we're seeing them where we first started seeing them
in the United States, like with Kenneth Arnold and other episodes besides just him.
And in the first off with the US was okay, the Soviets figured
something out from their Nazi scientists and these may be Soviet you know, reconnoissance
systems of some type, and that went up up the chain of command clear
to the Pentagon. So some people think that the military never really, you
know, concerned themselves with UFOs. That's the farthest from the truth. When
this first happened, it was a national secure issue. They had to find
out what they were, and like I said, their first thought was Soviet.
And then once they figured it wasn't Soviet, it turned to a team
called a Sign Sign that was a sign no pun intended, but had the
job to figure out what were these. And that's an interesting case where the
officers and scientists involved in that program considered an extraterrestrial hypothesis as a possibility.
They didn't say that's what it was, but what they did say was it
wasn't Soviet. And they said, it's a physical reality. It physically exists,
it has shape, it shows up on radar. You know, we've
had reliable people identify these objects. And so they said, one possibility is
that it comes from outside of the Earth. Well, and that was what
they called their estimate, And in the military that's what they usually do when
when you're trying to figure something out, they order an estimate. So their
estimate went up the flagpole, and when it got up to the Pentagon,
the reply came back, no, we're not going to say anything like that
at all, and then they eliminated that estimate, and to this day no
one has gotten a copy of it. There are people such as al chop
a guy who was in the Air Force back in the forties in fifties,
who says he saw the estimate, but it's not available. You can't get
your hands on it. So what did happen is they wrote a new estimate,
and the new estimate took out the part about any possibility of it being
extraterrestrial. And we go from there in the you know, the book goes
all the way up until modern times like Phoenix Slides and Stephenville. Now,
did you grab some insight into in these documents? And I know Rupert Rupel,
yeah, Rupel, you know kind of you in his book when he
was running the Blue Book, you can kind of see this. But did
you get a strong feeling as to where and how things change from taking this
phenomena as a serious investigation to kind of pushing it under the rug or kind
of a hot potato that we don't want to deal with this anymore. Right.
It kind of started in the early fifties, especially in nineteen fifty two
when all you know, when there was the General Sanford had his conference in
Washington, d C. Because there were all these UFOs over the Capitol and
they were showing up on radar there, and the Congress was getting involved.
President Truman was involved, and it was like, okay, what's going on?
And basically the Air Force couldn't explain what was going on, and so
that once all that dust settled down, they put together a panel called the
Robertson Panel, and that was a panel of scientists. But when you go
and you read the documents and just read what these guys talked about it,
it's like these guys get together and they're like, well, I don't really
have time to be here. I've got to be somewhere else. How long
will Lesson take us to get this resolved? And you can tell there's not
a whole lot of interest in it, but they do spend some time,
and after a few weeks of effort go go by, and they meet with
the CIA, they meet with the Air Force, and they come out with
some recommendations. And probably the key recommendation they have is that this is not
a national security issue, which was probably that's a true statement for the information
they had. And then the other statement they have is but it could be
a national security issue in terms of the American populace gets excited about these they
clog up the phone lines, and should there ever be if the Soviets were
to use something like this to divert our attention, it could be a national
security issue. So one of their decisions was, well, we need to
educate the public that there is no such there's nothing to this, so that
we can eliminate. In other words, they're saying, the objects themselves aren't
a national security issue, only the people fascination with them. We can eliminate
that, then we eliminate the only true national security issue that we think exists.
And so that's where they put together programs what they wanted to educate the
public and to kind of poo poo the whole concept of a flying saucers or
UFOs. Now, their logic, if I'm not mistaken, is that to
this idea that they're not a national security threat, is that they hadn't seen
any evidence of this phenomena of being aggressive or posing a threat. That's correct,
They had not seen In all the documents we ever saw, we never
saw one that established, you know, for sure, that these were ever
a threat. The UFOs wherever a threat. So do you think they considered
that, you know, it's a real phenomena, and it's just that at
least, you know, not opposing a threat to the whatever it is,
it's not coming in and trying to to down our plane, So it is
something benign. And do you think that's their sense or do you think they
felt maybe it was a mythology and in that case then it's something I think,
you know, when you read all the documents and you go back into
that era of history. I think what happened was the Air Force did all
they could to try to figure out, Okay, what is this and is
this a national security issue? And once they decided that the answer was no,
it's not a national security issue, but we don't have any idea what
it is, right, So then it became an issue of okay, we
don't know what it is. It's not national security, but we can't write
if you put yourself in nurshoes, you can't go to the public or Congress
and say, you know, it's not a national security issue, but I
have no idea what it is. I mean, you would just be constantly
hounded. So that's when I believe they decided, okay, we need to
get this, you know, sweeped under the road, get it off our
shoulders, you know, we don't want to deal with it. And and
that's when that started, and it seems that's been the policy ever since.
Uh yeah, it changed a little. Uh you know, they we had
Project blue Book after Project Grudge and then the Colorado Committee, which its purpose
was to you know, to squash and get rid of Project blue Book.
Because after they got rid of it, then the policy seemed to have shifted
a little more basically just totally ignoring it. In terms of the public in
other words, you don't you don't comment at all. And if you look
at history after nineteen sixty nine, it was very unusual that you ever got
a comment regarding UFOs by the Air Force. In the fifties and sixties,
you always got comments. Every time there was a major siding, the Air
Force would come out and say you know, they'd say, okay, no,
we don't think it's this, or we think it's something else. But
they always would comment. Once you pass sixty nine, those comments stop,
and every once in a while there's exceptions, but in general that's what happens.
One of the exceptions was Stephenville when Angela Joyner called that major at Carswell,
if he had done what other Air Force officials have been doing for the
last forty years. He would have just said, we don't know anything about
UFO any UFOs, and we don't know report on that that was taking care
of in nineteen sixty nine with a Colorado project, and that would have been
ended the store. But this guy was a little more kind of a talkative
kind of guy. According to Angelino, he was actually a fun guy to
talk to. When she first talked to him, and so he started saying,
well, I'll check on it. No, we don't have any airplanes,
and well maybe it was the sun glinting off a plane, you know.
He started kicking these ideas around. And then when it turned out that
there had been planes in the air and she and she finally called him back,
he wasn't his boisterous self anymore. She said. All he would say
was I'm sorry, miss Joiner, but all I can say is and then
he would read off this piece of paper and say, you know, we
don't know anything about this, blah blah blah. We made a mistake about
the planes. And that's all he would say. And she would ask him
with you know, oh, come on, no, you were you know
you told me before, and he'd go, I'm sorry, miss Joiner,
this is all I can say. And so he obviously out in a lot
of trouble. If he had just done what they normally do, he would
have been okay because he would have just not commented any it all right.
And he was saying due to a clerical error, and I think, but
there were planes in the area, and now this is prior to you all
coming out with your findings. Do you think that prompted him since you,
with your radar daddy, you were going to be able to establish that there
were military exercises in the area. You know, that's hard to say,
you know, especially when you're dealing with a bureaucracy. I mean, they
may have made a mistake and finally figured out that you know, their error,
and would have told the error independent of us having the radar data,
where it's possible they knew radar data had been given out and that someone might
figure it out. So, you know, it's hard to say. What
thing. You know, going back to the Robertson panel and then later the
Colorado project, you know, in researching this and reading the documents, for
example, Mike Swort and I went down to Texas A and M University and
College station where uh, some of the documents from the Colorado Project are or
still exist, and they exist in the papers of a guy by the name
of Roy Craig. Roy Craig, towards the latter part of the Colorado Colorado
Project became basically Condon's main guy after he fired a couple of other guys that
he had there. And what becomes real clear for anyone who's dealt with scientists
as to what happened was this, You've got the head guy and he's not
really interested in this project at all. He only did it as a favor
because he had a lot of friends in government offices, so he did it
as a favor, and basically these scientists were underneath them. They went off
and tried to figure things out. And if anyone reads the whole thousand page
call It out of project, you'll see some of those guys said, hey,
there's things here we can't explain, and they're not terrestrial. There's just
no explanation for him. You know, it's some unknown phenomenon or whatever.
Well, what once Condon comes back and you know it's getting time to come
out with the report. You know, he's upset that some of these guys
are thinking that, oh oh maybe there's something to UFOs. So he puts
the squash to that real quick, and a couple of guys get fired.
He rewrite, he wrote, basically writes the summary report, and if you
read the whole document, the summary report doesn't reflect what the rest of the
document says, right, And lots of people have said it's as if he
wrote that summary without even reading the rest of the document, which is some
of these guys suggests is entirely possible. Oh yeah, I don't think he
did read it. And the amazing thing is the National Academy of Sciences came
out and endorsed his summary of it. So obviously those guys the entire article.
And the thing is when I went through Roy Craig's notes and everything,
and because I've worked with a lot of PhDs when I was in the semiconductor
field, and it's real typical. It's like he's got this job and he's
doing it and he hits a barrier, right, like sometimes the Air Force
wouldn't give him information. Well, he just he bounces off the wall.
He didn't try to go back through the wall. He doesn't go try to
get one to you know, push the Air Force to why they won't give
him information, Like there was a case at Edwards Air Force Base and he
was trying to investigate it and they just said, no, we don't have
anything, and so he just ended it right there. He didn't go any
farther. There was a guy, and there's a tape recording on this.
This is a Boeing engineer who was working as a radar technician for the Army,
stationed at an Army Air Corps base in Newton, Jersey during about in
nineteen fifty two. So I actually it would have been Air Force, not
Army Air Corps by fifty two. So he was stationed as a radar operator
and this was one of the UFO signings near Washington, d C. Were
occurring. Oh, they were getting constant objects on the radar and they were
sending up f eighty five. Well, so condent In interviews this guy and
he tells connon excuse me. Roy Craig interviews him and he tells Roy Craig
on the tape, he says, we received orders that came straight down from
the pen of Gone that we were to fire on one of these objects,
and he said, we had our ninety millimeter cannon tied car radar, and
the F eighty fives were loaded with their missiles and with their light machine gun
or white cannon to fire on the object. He said, one of the
F eighty five. F eighty five was closing in on the object and was
ready to fire, and then the object just disappeared off his screen. It's
just like zipped off gone. But the thing is right, here's a guy
who's supposed to be investigating in the Colorade of project. He gets a report
like that. What in his notes? He asked the you know the Boeing
engine here, Can you give me any more information on that? Send me
a letter. Well the guy didn't send him a letter, so he drops.
It doesn't even show up in the Colorado Project, right. But you
know, it makes you wonder if if our military, and this isn't the
only time this has happened, gives pilots the right in the order to fire
on an unidentified flying object. Clearly they think it physically exists, because they're
not telling them to fire at lights in the sky, right, right.
And so the question, well, there's a lot of questions raised. But
well, I guess this would be the question. I'm sure I would imagine
that you came across other cases in which pilots were ordered to fire. It
makes me think of Milton Torres or some others. Well, did you come
across other ports? The one that I mentioned is the only one we talk
about other than Mildred Torres, which you mentioned, And we don't have him
in the book actually, because that occurred in Great Britain, and we don't
actually and we didn't have any documents right on the case. This one we
have in the book because we have the tape recording of Roy Craig, one
of the Colorader Project scientists, interviewing this Boeing engineer. So that's why we
have that one be at the invidence. So, as as a researcher,
though, do you feel that this probably wasn't the first time that it seems
to be fairly consistent story. Yeah, you know, I wouldn't say that
they did it on a regular basis, but I'm I'm sure that there were
multiple times other times that we've never heard about where they ordered aircraft to fire
on these And so I wonder and you probably wonder this, But do you
think they ever hit one? No, I don't think they. I don't
think they would have ever won. Yeah, and I could. I could
see that. Some people may disagree. But in other stories, and I'm
sure you have these where at least military was told to chase them or to
follow them, you know they shoot off at really quick speeds. Oh yeah,
yeah, I mean definitely that. We have multiple cases where the military
has ordered jets to intercept without saying fire on them. That happened in Washington,
d C. That happened in Belgium with the F sixteens on the triangle
that was there. That I can't recall the other cases, I think,
but I do believe we have a couple of other cases where well the Mantel
case, for example, where his plane crashed, that was a case where
he was trying to intercept. Another one that's really interesting is the one I
believe it was either in month No. No, I thought this is either
North or South Dakota, where basically a B fifty two strategic nuclear bomber was
coming back in It was my not South Dakota, and he was going to
land, and they told him not to land, but to continue to fly
around because there was a UFO that was being seen from the ground and they
wanted him to fly near it. That's the case that we talk about briefly,
and also the case in Iran. I believe that's nineteen seventy six or
seventy two. That case we talk about also where Iranian pilots were ordered to
intercept a UFO that was seen there. And often it's like this cat and
dog type of thing where and the object just takes off quickly. Oh yeah,
it's just gone. You know. It's like you know, I mean,
same thing with the Alaska Airliner in nineteen eighty six. I believe they're
the you know, the jet. The FAA had the jet fly at three
sixty around Fairbanks to see if the object would disappear. Yeah, I'm sure
they did that. Say okay, maybe there's this guy looking at Venus or
the moon or something, and now it does. You know, it stays
with him the whole time, and it's picked up on radar. So yeah,
it's like it's like whatever this phenomenon is, it's able to do whatever
it wants and it wants to. Now I'm sure your book doesn't end in
sixty nine and then pick up later again with Stephenville. So even though you
know in the surface the Air Force is saying they don't investigate sightings anymore,
I would imagine you found documents to show that there were some investigations after sixty
nine. Yeah, what we show is there were things that happened after sixty
nine, and it makes you know that there had to be plenty of others
because it was very difficult to find the information on anything after sixty nine,
after nineteen sixty nine. But you know, one of the first ones we
talked to is is talk about is one that Barry Greenwood talks about that happened
in the United States in the early seventies up in the area of Maine where
I think of Loring Air Force where there was some unknown object that went over
the base and somehow someone obtained the information on this through a FOYA. It's
documented very well in Barry Greenwood's book called Clear Intent. But that was an
example, right because Blue Book, I mean the Project blue Book no longer
existed, yet here were all these government documents about this event that occurred in
nineteen seventy five over lowering Air Force base in Main and then the case up
in Iran with the F four Phantom jets. That was the case again that
someone happened to get a hold of a Department of Defense document that talked about
it, but it was nothing that the government, you know, you could
easily get. You just have to get lucky and find those things. Same
thing with the with the Alaska airliner in nineteen eighty six, the the military
actually asked the FAA if they wanted them to send up intercept pilots, you
know, at sixteens to intercept you know whatever the object was next to the
Japanese airliner. Wow. And it was the Japanese airliner pilot that said,
no, I don't I don't want, I don't need any you know,
F sixteen sent up Wow. So how many about you know, how many
cases did you find from sixty nine on? It's a limited number of cases
from sixty nine on. Uh, there's probably maybe eight cases that you know,
we were able to find documentation on to show that you know, the
government was reacting to it. One of the cases we talk about also that
occurs after that timeframe is Roswell. And the reason we talk about that is
not whether or not Roswell really occurred or didn't occur. We talk about it
because the Air Force reacted to everyone's concerns about Roswell and came out with what
we believe were bogus reports, the Roswell Report and their other report Roswell Report
Case Closed, where they create these dummies that they said were what people were
seeing, and those dummies didn't even exist back then. So it was like,
we identify that because it gives you an example of how the government reacts
to the phenomenon. In this case, they're reacting to how the public's reacting
to the phenomenon. So yeah, then that's the last case that we that
we talk about. From there we go into other countries' histories. So I
guess it comes down to, Oh, I guess what are some of the
other countries you cover? Before I get into that, Uh, well,
let me tell you about some of the countries to the countries we don't cover,
for example, or England and Canada. And the reason we don't cover
them is you don't like them, right, we don't like them. They
speak the wrong kind of way they talk, something called the Queen's English.
Yeah. No, actually, we don't really go into those simply because they're
very close a military allies the United States, especially Canada as well as England,
and the way they treat the UFO phenomenon is the same way the United
States did. So we didn't see any you know, any value in going
through THEIRS. What we did do is we showed some other countries to give
a flavor of how countries that aren't necessarily close allies of the United States,
how they dealt with the phenomenon. And for example, we we go through
the history the Swedish Sweden's experience with the phenomenon. Yeah, and one of
the interesting things about the Swedish experience is that the military worked closely with the
civilian agency, unlike you know the US experience. Yeah, they don't work
with us. Yeah. And we then we talk about the Australian UH incidents
simply because there's some really interesting ones in Australian and one point in time where
there was almost a nuclear war that occurred. Wow, and so that one
and and that that one's written by Bill Chalker. It's really interesting and UH
in other words, like they were mistaking uh unidentified objects for enemy ships that
and so they were about ready to push some buttons. Right, Well,
there was a concern about UH and I don't want to get this one wrong
because this is you know, Bill's kind of chapter that he wrote. But
there's a an incident where a nuclear alert UH goes into play and at the
same time there's a nuclear alert, there's these UFO sightings. So there was
this concern that you know, could that could they could the UFOs send the
nuclear alert to a higher level? And the new the initial nuclear alert occurred
because of the situation that had occurred in Israel. Oh okay, uh,
so it was a Middle Eastern thing that initiated it all. But then the
UFOs being in the area at the time of that just worsened the you know,
the potential for a disaster. And then the Spanish chapter is very interesting.
It goes into basically how Spain turned over all of their UFO files to
a civilian organization and work with them on it. But my favorite chapter is
France. And I guess the reason I really like that chapter other than I
wrote it is of all the countries, France is the only one that took
the UFO phenomenon out of the military arena of national security because it doesn't matter
what country you're talking about. If your military organization is dealing with the UFO
phenomenon, they're going to deal with it from the aspect of national security because
that's what they do. They protected a nation. Well that's the way the
French started off. But then a guy by the name of doctor Claude Pohare
convinced the head of the authorities there, once they realized it was not a
national security issue, that it should be turned over to their space agency,
and so Japan was made a sub organization under the French National Space Agency.
And so they are probably the only country of which I'm aware that they actually
used scientists and tried their best to use scientific methods to analyze the phenomena.
I mean, they did some great work on a case in Trod's m Provos
where they took both soil samples and vegetation samples, and so that's really a
chapter of I think, how how it would be nice if that's the way
the United States approaches it. Yeah, Yeah, that's what's exciting about the
French. And I know some people like to make fun of the French,
but as far as UFO's go, it's so exciting that it's they're they're equivalent
to NASA. That's it's doing this investigation and taking it very seriously, and
even in a recent analysis had said they were they weren't sure what the root
of the phenomena is, and they even went on to say they aren't ruling
out the extraterrestrial hypothesis. Right. The French are actually pretty open minded and
it's uh in like you said, they do take it seriously. And just
to show how seriously, I give an example in that chapter of a guy
who plays a hope and the way the French operate, The gen Darmes work
with the National Space Agency, so their initial investigator is their gendarmes who and
the gendarmes for the people who don't know, are more than just police.
They're more equivalent to our FBI, except they're in uniform. It's their national
police force. So this guy pulls a hoax and as soon as they figured
it out, they arrest him and haul him off. So I mean they
do take it seriously. So you don't have people playing hoax France, and
you have people flying Chinese lanterns and claiming their UFOs, and you know the
last one, I'll mentioned real quick, Alejandro, which I really like is
the case in Belgium, and we talk about we also talk about Russia,
Brazil and Belgium very briefly, but Belgium I really like because of that triangle
incident and you know that photo. Whether that photo is real or not,
I don't know, but that's not to me. What's important about the case.
What's really the more important part is the number of police that saw this
object and they've just tracked it. Is it flew across at very slow speeds
across their country. I mean, I think they had over two and fifty
witnesses, and of those two hundred two and fifty witnesses, around sixteen to
twenty were policemen who were in control cards tracking this. It's I mean,
it's like, well, how do you explain that? Yeah, several sightings
of this object from police and others. And that's why I'm really excited to
have my upcoming conference. That General de Brower, of course, you know,
and I got to see him speak in San Jose a few years ago,
and his talk is wonderful because he goes step by step through all of
these sightings, jets being scrambled, all of these different incidents and you get
to see this incredible like Japon or something. They took this serious investigative stance.
I mean, they took it very seriously and you get to see their
investigation step by step and what had happened, and it is extraordinary. Oh
yeah, I mean, I mean, these policemen at one point they followed
this craft to a lake where it sits there for thirty minutes and it's only
at about five hundred feet they estimated one hundred foot wingspan, So it's not
like you're seeing a light in the sky. Right, So it's like what
I mean, either they saw it or there, or they've gone whack out
one of the two, right, you know, you can't say they misidentified
something. Yeah, that's really impressive. I love that. So that's going
to be very exciting to see him talking and he'll be able to speak on
the photo that you're talking about, to give us an update on his feelings
on the legitimacy of the photo. But further, even if he feels it
is hoaxed, like you said, to go on to demonstrate the abundance of
evidence in that wave of sightings. So very exciting stuff. I'm really excited
about the book getting back to the US. So you've talked about how there
were investigations. The United States has taken this serious even after nineteen sixty nine,
So what are your feelings for behind the scenes. Of course, they
have what they tell the public, but behind the scenes you have people ordering
pilots to go shoot them down, and maybe some incidents, but at least
to intercept objects in others. Uh, do you feel there is this grand
conspiracy behind the scene or is it kind of more informal and there's one off
type of situations happening or are you still just as as mystified as to what
might be going on as you were when you started this project. Well,
you know, Alejandro, I don't see things in black and white, so
I always consider everything it's a possibility. It may be one percent likely,
but everything's possibility. But to me, I don't think that there's an overriding
conspiracy of any type. I really don't. From when you read the history
of it. There may be groups you know here and there that had some
information or we're collecting it, or they tracked and followed the information, kind
of like what John Alexander points out in his book and so they may they
may know some things, but I don't think there's any overriding group that is
a constant thread through history in this group. You know, this group from
nineteen forty to today has always had the information in control of it. I
think it's piecemeal. It's been in different organizations. I honestly think that there's
two basic driving forces. One is that the military has no idea what the
phenomenon is, and as a result, they don't want to deal with something
they can't explain. And the second thing is, and I don't know how
this has happened, but it's almost like there's this psychological thing where people don't
even want to talk about it or even consider it as a possibility. I
mean even in the government, it's like, don't talk to me about it,
are you crazy? Well, what are you talking about? Right?
And we see that over and over again where military witnesses say that they never
reported these things officially because they didn't because of exactly what you're talking about.
Yeah, I'm just within the last year, I was talking to a guy
who'd come out of the military and was flying one of these I can't remember
the exact name. It's an Orion type of craft that's used over the Gulf
of Mexico to keep an eye on, you know, aliens coming into the
United States or things going you know, or smugglers or drug runners, all
that kind of thing. And he had this guy, I won't go into
him, but he had two experiences and the crew that was with them where
they picked these objects up with their infrared cameras with their regular cameras. And
so after he described all this to me, I said, so when you
got back, did you report it? And what did your you know,
officers say? And he goes, no, we didn't report it. I
said, why wouldn't you report it? Well, because they would have figured
were crazy, and so we didn't report it. I mean, it's just
like that's what it always is. Yeah. I heard from some guy who
claimed and he seemed to be a very credible individual. He was retired,
not for very long, I don't think, in his early sixties, and
he came to a conference out in the middle of the San Luis Valley that
I was at, and he told me he took me aside, you know,
one night, and we were sitting in the campfire because this is outwear
a conference which is kind of fun You camped there too, and he said
he used to work at nora At and that whenever they saw something that was
unexplainable they knew wasn't theirs. They called it a section eight, and they
didn't talk about it. It was kind of this unwritten role. You don't
talk about it. And that's hilarious because, of course, if people remember
and I don't know if this is true, but it hasn't ring a truth
partially because if people remember what a section eight is, you know, this
is what Corporal Clinger was trying to get mashed by wearing women's clothes. You
know, give me a section eight the show he was crazy to get kicked
out of the military. Were being crazy, and that's what they call the
section eight. So kind of funny. It's you remember Hogan's Did you ever
see Hogan's heroes? Huh? Remember h Sergeant Schultz whenever he would, you
know, whenever something was going on here go, I see nothing, I
know nothing, I hear nothing. Right, it's that same thing. It's
like there, you would imagine there's also a strain kind of like the strain
who started mof on engineers who and maybe that's the inspiration behind some of these
guys who were them to be shot down, who are so interested in the
technology that they want to get their hands on it. It's possible, but
you know, my gut not to say that they have been able to right.
I think even if they had their hands on it, they'd have no
idea what they had. Yeah, they wouldn't know what to do with it,
but probably about as likely as Columbus could figure out what a silicon chip
does. I love your example of that too, because we were talking about
this the other day, and I'll let you explain it. And one of
the first difficulties they would have with a silicon chip back then, Oh yeah,
I was a sudden You don't even have to go back to Columbus's day.
You could just go back one hundred and fifty years to like the year
eighteen fifty, and you could give them a silicon chip and you know,
they could see all the Yeah, it looks like this is probably a luminum
on the top it. We're not sure. It looks like solid alumina.
Well, tron microscopes didn't sense, so there's no way they could even see
the definition of the aluminum lines that exist on a silicon chip. You know,
let alone figure out what this thing did, right, and then you
know it's as soon as they probably put a drop of acid on it.
See if it's really illuminum, of course then they would have destroyed it.
Hip. So you know, the idea that we could I mean one hundred
and fifty years ago are we couldn't reverse engineer the technology that we have today.
There's no way we're going to reverse engineer technology if someone a thousand years
more advanced than us, assuming that's what it is, who knows, right?
All right, Well, thank you so much. I want to talk
about because we're pretty much out of time. When is the book available?
It should It should be available within the next couple of weeks. Okay,
keep checking on Amazon and Barnes is double and it should be available sin move
On And it's being published by Anomalist Books, not like Anomalists ANAMA list so
ends an L I S T Books dot com. Patrick Weege is our publisher,
so you can find it there, and of course there'll be links at
MoveOn dot com and I'll be certainly spreading the word also. Well, thanks
for talking to me this evening, Alejandro. As usual, it's great talking
to you again. Look forward to singing you again for long. Thanks.
It was great to have you on again. I'm so excited about this work.
Congratulations to you and all the authors on finishing this book. I think
it's going to be a really important piece of work. All right. Thank
you to Robert so much for being on the show. And this. If
you go to that Anomalous books dot com and you go to the coming soon
UFOs and Government a Historical Inquiry, and you will see all the authors Michael
Swartz, Robert Powell, Class, Vaughan Vicente, Juan Ballister, almost Bill
Tulker, Barry Greenwood, Richard Thames, John Aldrich and Steve Purcell. So
you may recognize some of those names. Thank you so much for joining me
once again. We will have some more excitement next week, so be sure
to be there. Talk to you next week people. Until then, enjoy
the music by two Earth Minutes.