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Welcome to USO, thinks Tom Craigier
with your host Alejandro Rojan. That is

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correct. It is I Alandro Rojas, Hello, my friend, how are

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you. It is wonderful to be
here talking to you again, and that

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is for many reasons, the number
one reason being that I'm a little bit

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embarrassed to say it, but and
I hope this isn't freak you out.

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But I love you. That's the
big reason I'm here, because I think

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I'm falling for you. I love
all of my listeners here at UFO Think

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Tank Radio, and I love that
you're here to listen and that you're enthusiastic

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and love this topic just like I
do, which is just such a big

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inspiration to get this information out for
you and to have wonderful guests such as

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our guest this evening, this guy
flipping rocks, and that is Robert Powell.

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He is the director of research for
MOUF on the Mutual UFO network.

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He has been such for a while
now. In fact, if you've been

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with the show for a while,
you probably remember he is one of my

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first guests and back when the Stephensville
stuff went down. This is the guy

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who, along with Glenn Schultzer,
radar expert, got FAA data to demonstrate

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that there was an unknown craft craft
without a beacon identifier on it in the

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area of Stephenville. It's like characteristics
were peculiar, to say the least,

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and the object was in areas where
the witnesses said it was not all witnesses,

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but many of them, so it
corroborated a lot of the witness testimony.

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And of course Stephenville was on this
Chasing UFOs TV show thing that they're

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doing on the National Geographic Channel,
so I had him on. But really

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that's not the main topic that me
and Robert are talking about here tonight.

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Really a large part of what we're
talking about also is this incredible book that

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he's been working on with some other
researchers. And this book is on the

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history of UFOs. You might be
saying, well, that's pretty boring,

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but this one is special because,
well, the person he wrote it was

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it's kind of exciting. And this
is Michael Swartz, who is a scientist

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and at the Western Michigan University and
he's a professor of natural sciences, and

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many other researchers. Maybe i'll read
off the list a little later, however,

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the point being that what they did
is they went and found a lot

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of government documents. So this is
mostly US but also other governments, and

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so this tells a story as far
as US government documents. And I'm not

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talking about, you know, some
of the more dubious documents of unknown origins,

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like anonymously leaked documents, So I'm
talking about documents that have been found

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via boy of requests, or documents
they went and found themselves in universities at

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various libraries throughout the country, or
documents that other researchers had found or discovered

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on their own. So that's really
exciting because there are a lot of files

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out there that are surprising. You
know, we hear about these stories of

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these guys in the military having sightings, chasing UFOs, being told to shoot

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at UFOs. We've heard some of
these stories. So they went and found

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documentation of these cases, and these
are government documents demonstrating that how serious that

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this this phenomena is taken by the
military. So I think this is going

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to be a very significant book.
It includes something I think he says,

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like over two hundred pages of photos. It's a very big book. Five

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hundred plus pages long. So I'm
excited about this book, and that's why

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I wanted to have Robert on to
talk more about it. Plus I hadn't

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had him on the show in a
while. He's a great guy, so

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this will be a lot of fun. So we got good stuff speaking of

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of course, exciting things that I
like to do for you all and for

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the greater community here on the planet
Earth. That's right, it's a interplanetarian

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scope at least my intentions and towards
helping out, you know, all humans

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and whoever's visiting. I don't discriminate
if there's people from other cosmosis, COSMOSI

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other places utter than Earth, that's
cool with me. Man, welcome the

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more of the merrier. Just come
say hi, and you know, let

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me in on what's going down.
But my point here being that, of

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course, as you know, I've
got the conference going on, Cosmic Exploration

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conference. It's you know, we
have scientists and professors discussing space mysteries and

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UFOs. And I'll tell you what
that we do have a couple people well,

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and I you know, a couple
means too, and I'm not even

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sure that we have that many that
are skeptical when it comes to the UFO

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phenomena. That demonstrates and I have
more than the couple scientists. I'm like

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half of the the speakers have PhDs
in or our professors or scientists. So

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this demonstrates, you know what I've
been saying for a long time. Scientists

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are interested in all of this stuff. And so we'll get them together to

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talk and you know, get some
insight. And I think what it's shaping

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up to be is that the special
perspective that is going to be given at

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this conference is not so much if
the phenomena exists, if there is extraterrestrial

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life. However, how will we
react when we discover officially extraterrestrial life and

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when we and this isn't me talking
this when we stuff this is you know,

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these guys, these these people who
are speaking when we discover intelligent civilizations

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out there and how we would react. And these are sociologists and psychologists,

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very qualified people to be speaking on
the subject. And I think it's going

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to be particularly special environment that when
we have this academic space, this academic

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environment, to discuss this topic in
a very serious manner. So I feel

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that this is going to be and
I've been going to conferences for a while.

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I've helped put on conferences, but
this one in particular, I'm excited

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about because I think it's going to
be very unique and historically significant looking back,

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especially when since I think we're right
around the corner for at least discovery

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of some sort of life, so
very exciting stuff. I hope you come

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and join us. If you can't
join us, there's also a kickstarter.

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If you go to cosmicex dot com
or if you go to Ufodaily dot com,

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there's a kickstarter just for the month
of July, and this is for

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me to raise money. So if
you can't come that, you can get

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a DVD. So you can go
to this kickstarter. You can go to

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UFO Daily News dot com. You'll
see it there on the right hand side

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the kickstarter project. You can purchase
DVDs through this kickstarter at a very low

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price, and that helps me gain
the funding so that hopefully I can get

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the equipment to make DVDs. So
and I've also had some offers for people

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who want to help, and thank
you very much, and we'll definitely be

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in contact. So that's some that's
going on with the conference, and I've

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been so dang busy, i haven't
really gotten a whole lot of stories.

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Well I haven't, yeah, had
stories up on the UFO Daily News dot

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com. However, I have kept
up with the news feed, so I'm

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sending out UFO News, like I
say, on a regular basis. And

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if you go to the news feed
link there, you're gonna see tons and

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tons of stories from the mainstream press. So check that out. And in

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fact, you know, I'm going
to go over these stories in just a

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second as we usually do on the
show, and a couple all these stories

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have some videos that are kind of
fun or at least some good stories here,

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so I'll get those up soon.
Okay, I promise you all at

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UFO Daily News. Otherwise you can
go to the site and see them there.

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But one of the things I want
to talk about is getting into UFO

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News. Should I And you can
email me a couple of things if you're

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listening right now and I see your
email before the end of the show.

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I will then refer to them at
the end of the show. However,

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here's a couple and if you're not
listening live, like ninety percent of you,

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you're listening on your podcast, or
you're a Google player or some other

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way. Email me anyways, I
want to know two things. What you

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think of the Chasing UFO show from
National Geographic. I'm having a hard time

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getting out a beat on what people
think, although yeah, i'd have to

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say, like our guests last week, I have heard some criticism, but

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maybe you like it. Let me
know. I don't know, because I'm

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on it with my good buddy Jason
McClellan on the twentieth, and I hope

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that at least people like that episode, or at least like my part Jason's

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part. Jason's always a lot of
fun. But anyway, I want to

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hear your thoughts on that, and
I also want to hear so I started

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with the other thing that I really
wanted to hear from from you all,

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which just a Jason GUFO think.
Because I can't remember the other I already

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forgot it. So yeah, send
me some info and let me know what

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you think. And the email address
you could use just A Lejandro, A

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L E J A N D r
O or info I NFO at UFO Daily

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News dot com, and that'll be
great because I want to hear your thoughts

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there, so you can only imagine
my thoughts. Well, here's the other

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one. Do you think I should
make some UFO news music to transition into

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UFO News. Nothing to you know, whacky or or silly, but just

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would that be nice? Do you
think? Speaking of UFO News, we

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used to have this funny little guy
named Jason McClellan on the show doing that

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with me when I work for Open
Minds. He is currently working for Open

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Minds now and I don't want I'll
put it this way. If you want

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him to be back on the show, like I do, ask Open Minds,

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he's got to get permissions to do
that, and so send them an

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email and hopefully he'll be back on
the show. But he's doing his own

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little web series with the Lovely Marine
Ailsberry and if you've seen her, well

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many people comment on the Lovely Marine. And what's so funny about this is

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that when I stopped working for Open
Minds, somebody in an email said,

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oh, man, I can tell
there was some tension there. No,

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there's no tension. There's only love. I love those guys there, my

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buddies. No tension between Jason and
Maureene and I We're all very good friends

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and I still keep in contact with
them, So why am I talking about

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him? You're like, Okay,
what is he going on about Jason Maureene

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for this little love fest here.
It's because Lee Spiegel, our speaker from

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our guests from last week. He
wrote a story about Jason and Marine and

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their web series Spacing Out, where
they do some news about space and UFOs

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and a short little segment that they
put up on YouTube. That's my point.

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You can imagine my surprise. He
didn't even tell me he was doing

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this when on July fourth, I
look at Huffington Post Weird News just to

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check up, and there's my two
buddies right there, big picture of him

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smiling away. Freak me out.
So pretty cool that he did that,

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So you can check that out.
However, there's another story that mister Lee

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Spiegel has done in the last week, and in fact, this just popped

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up yesterday. He did a special
interview with Chase Brandon, a thirty five

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year CIA veteran. I told you
a little bit about this story before,

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because this gentleman was on coast to
coast and my buddy Robbie Graham from Silver

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Screen saucers. He wrote ran a
story on this, and in fact,

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he sent me a story on this
to post on my site, so I'll

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have it up soon. And about
this Chase Brandon guy, the CIA veteran,

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he was really excited about it,
No wonder why. So. Lee

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had also caught him on Coast to
Coast and had scheduled an interview and also

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did his own research into this guy. So I talked to Lee pretty regularly

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and we talked in depth about this
this guy and Lee did a lot of

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research he found. You know,
this guy certainly did work for the CIA.

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He had the unique position for a
while of being an entertainment laison.

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I'm not quite sure what he means
by that. I would love to find

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out more. He has written a
book on Roswell that is science fiction that

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is not true. However, on
Coast to Coast and now with Lee,

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he has confirmed that, yes,
I do believe there were aliens that had

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crashed to Earth in an alien spacecraft
in Roswell. He says he believes this

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because when he was at a place, it's kind of a historial coal archive

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for the CIA. He says,
it's nothing like the Indiana Jones warehouses,

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and that's what it feels like when
he talks about that. But it's really

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just these smaller cardboard boxes. And
he used to visit this place often and

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do research for various different things,
and one day he ran across a box

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simply labeled Roswell. He opened the
box and he saw pictures and other things.

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He doesn't describe them in detail,
unfortunately, which I'm not sure why

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he doesn't do that. It'd be
nice if he did. But all he'll

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say is that these pictures did confirm
to me that this crash in Roswell was

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real, was extraterrestrial, and there
were cadavers recovered. Pretty interesting news.

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If this guy is making it up, well, and I mean you can

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speculate that he's making it up to
sell books. Some people think, you

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know, he's been in the CIA
so long. Why would he hurt his

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credibility? Why would he do that? Of course books equals money, but

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still he really was in the CIA, so it's very intriguing. It kind

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of reminds me of Colonel Courso,
of course, another very credible person who

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was a colonel in the Army and
worked at the Pentagon, and he said

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he had worked with pieces from Roswell. He was given this box full of

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pieces and they said that this stuff's
from Roswell. Figure out what we do

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with it. While he's working at
the Pentagon. So another very high level

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witness who has come force, and
it's very no bones about it. Yep,

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there were extrasturals in Roswell, and
I know this because in my work

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at the CIA, I saw the
evidence. Hopefully we can get him on

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the show and I will ask him
some more details and questions about all of

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this. But a very very interesting
story indeed, and in fact, it's

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so interesting that Fox News picked it
up today, so did the Daily Mail

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out in the UK, and I'm
sure probably more will. So it looks

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like this story is going to go
viral. Very interesting. Speaking of the

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videos, real quick here so we
can get into the interview that I mentioned

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earlier. There is eighteen and New
Freedom and York County, Pennsylvania who took

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a video. Now the video is
kind of it's just with his phone.

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It's a blinking light, but it's
kind of interesting. He's a nineteen year

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old physics major at Duquane University,
an Eagle scout, and he saw this

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video. He wrote a sci fi
novel when he's fifteen, and this thing

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looks very professional, very it seems
like a very intelligent kid, you know.

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And he says he saw some strange
lights flying around. He caught him

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on video on his phone, but
of course his resolution is so poor you

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can't really tell much. But it's
an interesting story that the news ran on

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this, you young gentleman. Also
on June twenty first, a surfer captures

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a UFO on video and this is
in Australia, and this is interesting because

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it is about a ten minute video
and it is this orangish, reddish looking

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light that is kind of flickering,
which would make me think that perhaps it

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is a Chinese lantern. However,
you know, those things don't last,

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at least when I've messed with them. They only last ten fifteen minutes.

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So kind of an interesting story.
But this guy, when he saw him

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and his friends were very convinced that
it was something abnormal, possibly a plasma

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ball, but he thinks most likely
it was an extraterrestrial spacecraft. Very interesting.

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Speaking of extraterrestrial stories, there is
a scientist you might have read this

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who speculates that aliens may look like
jellyfish, says, most likely they do

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that in a lot of these atmospheres
that are much thicker. For example,

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he says, a methane atmosphere,
the sinks could float around scooping up chemicals

220
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and nutrients into their big, gaping
mouths. And of course this made a

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lot of news, this theory about
these jellyfish. Here's a story I really

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liked, and this was in Montana, the Lake County Leader. And this

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guy was writing about UFOs a lot
of stories on National Geographic and ABC News

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and he wrote about but did you
know about the UFOs scene in Montana in

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the summer nineteen sixty six. He
continues to write, his name is Paul

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Fugelberg, about these sightings in nineteen
sixty six from late June to late July

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that he covered. He's a reporter
and he wrote about them. He says.

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He complained in his article that he
hadn't seen any of these alleged UFOs.

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Then that night he saw one.
He saw one of these things.

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He said, it was too low
and too fast to be a satellite.

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He happened to run to grab his
camera and was able to snap a picture.

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And he's got this picture It is
a low resolution, but he's got

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it posted on his story here.
And you see this bright light looks like

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it's over a pole. There's some
electrical wires going by in a tree and

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a cloud up there, and you
see this very bright light. So very

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interesting. This reporter saying, hey, you know, I've seen a UFO

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too. I wrote about him in
the sixties and then I saw one of

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those suckers. And he's pretty much
saying, hey, have you seen one

239
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of these? Let me know?
So very interesting. This is in the

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Lake County Leader, and well,
that's about the most recent really interesting news

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that we've had. So remember,
you can find all of this at ufodailynews

242
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dot com. If you go to
the UFO newsfeed, you're going to find

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links to all of these stories.
And then soon here in the next few

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days, I'll get this story up
from my buddy Robbie Graham on the Chase

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Brandon thing. But you can go
to the Huffington Post Weird News to see

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that, and then I will also
get up these video stories because these videos

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are interesting. However, for now, let's talk to my buddy Robert Powell.

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All right, I am happy to
be speaking with a good move on,

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buddy of mine. Robert Powell,
Hello, Roberts, Hi Ali Hondro.

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It's great to talk to you again. I'm glad you're our public relations

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director at moof On now. Yeah, it's good to be back, because

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you know, it was it was
a lot of fun working with you back

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in those days, and so I'm
happy to be back. Those were good

254
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times. They were I enjoyed them
a lot. Mm hmm. And one

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of the good times was related to
Stephenville. And I wanted to talk about

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this just for a minute because the
because you did some incredible work he was

257
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Glenn Schultz, and also because it
was on the television show Chasing UFOs recently,

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so some people might probably saw that. Who are listening so into Stephenville

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craziness? You know. One of
the things that was great, which you

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know was a seminal piece of I
think Moufon work over all, is that

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you, with Glenn Chalter radar expert, were able to grab some data from

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the FAA to demonstrate that there was
an anomalous object in the area and that

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some of the witness testimony was corroborated
by the data you had found. Yeah,

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we were fortunate in being able to
get that data from the FAA.

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And what was really nice is to
have so many witnesses over such a geographic

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area that wasn't that was spread out
in these witnesses for seeing these objects at

267
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different times, but all during that
same evening, and so that really made

268
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it worthwhile to go get the radar
data because we had good witnesses to correlate

269
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it to, and probably to me, the most interesting one of all was

270
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the constable who had seen the object
just south of his home. He estimated

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two miles and on radar we picked
up an object roughly two miles south of

272
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his home at the time that he
saw this object, and that was really

273
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exciting to see that well, and
the data you had showed that it was

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moving extremely slow at times, possibly
very fast at times. And also you

275
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were able to track the jets that
were in the area because there really were

276
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jets doing an exercise near by.
Yeah, I mean, actually that was

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the very first thing we did before
we went looking for any unidentified objects in

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the radar data. The first thing
we did was we tracked the jets through

279
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the entire four hours we had that
information, so that way we knew where

280
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the jets were at all moments of
time, and once we got thin nailed

281
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down, then we went looking for
objects that did not have transponder identification and

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we match those up with the witnesses. And if I remember correctly, you

283
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even the jets went out to the
exercise area returned to the base. However,

284
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one of those jets made a detour
near where the sightings were. Is

285
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that correct? That's right, you
remember pretty well. There was there was

286
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a pair of jets. And you
know, for people who are familiar with

287
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geography, this will hit them right
away, especially the geography of Oklahoma and

288
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Texas. But the Dallas Fort Worth
area is in north far north Texas,

289
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almost at the Oklahoma border. Well
to these jets head to the northwest,

290
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and they travel probably about one hundred
to one hundred and twenty miles and they're

291
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doing exercises basically due west of Oklahoma
City. Well, when they're done with

292
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their exercises, they don't go back
to the Dallas Fort Worth area to what

293
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we used to be called Carswell Air
Force Base and go back there. They

294
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actually go due south and travel halfway
into Texas into the area where Stephenville and

295
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Commanche and Dublin are located, and
they don't do any exercises in the military

296
00:27:18.279 --> 00:27:22.000
operating area there. They just fly
south, fly over those cities, and

297
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then head back to their home base. So it's almost like someone said,

298
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why don't you guys go down there
and check out what's going on. Was

299
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this during the time of the sightings
or soon after? This was soon after

300
00:27:34.839 --> 00:27:41.279
most of the sidings occurred. The
first two waves of jets there were four

301
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in each squadron, had already gone
down in where already had been in the

302
00:27:45.880 --> 00:27:52.400
Stephenville area and were returning. And
we're either almost back to Dells Worth or

303
00:27:52.440 --> 00:27:57.400
had already returned at the point in
time that the two jets in Oklahoma came

304
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down due south. Wow. Yeah, so that's really interesting. And here

305
00:28:03.240 --> 00:28:10.920
again corroborates witness testimony of saying they
saw jets after this this anomalous object.

306
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Yeah, afterwards, not chasing,
I don't like, but exactly that's what.

307
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Yeah, you got that right.
They weren't chasing after the UFO,

308
00:28:19.319 --> 00:28:23.720
but they saw the jets later on, right, So interesting data. And

309
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then real quick on the movement of
the craft the unknown object that you all

310
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had found in the radar data was
that correct. It moved really slow and

311
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I think there was a gap where
which could indicate fast speed, but perhaps,

312
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but at least there was a for
the most part, a consistent pattern

313
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of this thing moving straight. Yeah. Well there's uh. We picked up

314
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this object three different times, and
the one time when we picked it up

315
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southwest of the constables home. He's
the one who describes the whole series of

316
00:29:04.640 --> 00:29:08.720
lights that were dancing around and then
they came together and then just took off

317
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at an extremely high rate of speed
towards Dublin, which was just north of

318
00:29:14.599 --> 00:29:18.920
his home. What was interesting is
the object that was just south of his

319
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home that was barely moving. All
of a sudden, the next radar blip

320
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that we got was clear up north
into the Dublin area, and you can

321
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calculate the speed at which it moves
and the speed it moved that that was

322
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nineteen hundred miles an hour, and
so that corroborates what the constable said said

323
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he saw. And then what you
were referring to that straight line, that

324
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was that path that was headed towards
Crawford Grant where we had we had over

325
00:29:55.720 --> 00:30:00.799
one hundred and forty radar hits on
that object, and at times it would

326
00:30:00.880 --> 00:30:06.599
not move, and then there were
times where within a ten second time span

327
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it went from basically not moving to
five hundred and forty five hundred and fifty

328
00:30:11.599 --> 00:30:18.359
miles an hour, which is faster
than that least well even like a commercial

329
00:30:18.440 --> 00:30:25.799
jet would fire right or and maybe
might maybe not as fast as a military

330
00:30:25.880 --> 00:30:29.920
jet. But of course those things
you were able to tract as he had

331
00:30:30.079 --> 00:30:36.119
transponders. Well, right, the
jets, the lead jets we could track

332
00:30:36.720 --> 00:30:41.839
because they had transponders. But for
any object to go from basically a standstill

333
00:30:42.599 --> 00:30:49.440
to over five hundred miles an hour
in ten seconds, that's a very high

334
00:30:49.519 --> 00:30:53.720
rate of acceleration. And then,
to make it even more interesting, ten

335
00:30:53.759 --> 00:30:59.599
seconds later it had deaccelerated down to
like thirty or forty miles an hour,

336
00:31:00.359 --> 00:31:06.440
and then you wist track of it
near it was headed towards the Crawford Ranch,

337
00:31:07.480 --> 00:31:11.000
but last track of it because the
data was only for us that period

338
00:31:11.039 --> 00:31:15.519
of time. Right, we just
have four hours of data, and our

339
00:31:15.599 --> 00:31:19.680
data ended at eight pm Central Standard
time, and at that point in time,

340
00:31:19.759 --> 00:31:25.519
the object was about five to six
miles from Cropper Branch, but it

341
00:31:25.599 --> 00:31:29.559
was on a straight line there,
so I'm sure within another ten minutes would

342
00:31:29.559 --> 00:31:34.759
have been there. And one thing
that wasn't in the original report, Alejandro,

343
00:31:36.000 --> 00:31:41.519
is about six months later I identified
two witnesses and I went and talked

344
00:31:41.559 --> 00:31:45.880
to them. They lived about a
mile They lived a mile and a half

345
00:31:45.920 --> 00:31:49.960
from Cropper Branch, and that evening
they were riding their bikes. It was

346
00:31:51.000 --> 00:31:56.240
a husband and wife and they saw
an object because they could see Crawford Ranch

347
00:31:56.279 --> 00:32:00.960
from their home and they saw an
object. They discrete is like taking about

348
00:32:00.720 --> 00:32:07.200
six jupiters, so six very bright
nighttime objects and just lining them up horizontally,

349
00:32:07.279 --> 00:32:13.279
so it had a lot more with
than Jupiter has, but that level

350
00:32:13.279 --> 00:32:17.400
of brightness, and it was slowly
descending. And then they said the next

351
00:32:17.440 --> 00:32:23.319
thing, it just made a ninety
degree turn and moved parallel to the ground

352
00:32:23.359 --> 00:32:30.240
and was gone. And they said, roughly a blink of an eye.

353
00:32:30.599 --> 00:32:37.240
Wow, now you've said that since
Oh, And you know, I just

354
00:32:37.319 --> 00:32:42.359
like to throw this in here because
just I think it was interesting and I

355
00:32:42.519 --> 00:32:46.440
like to, you know, give
credit where credits due. But startingly,

356
00:32:47.720 --> 00:32:52.920
for me, there was so little
attention given to your report because well,

357
00:32:52.960 --> 00:32:57.359
at the time, you know,
I was doing the pr like we talked

358
00:32:57.359 --> 00:33:00.440
about, and I was working with
all of these to make sure they were

359
00:33:00.839 --> 00:33:06.559
getting interviews with our guys in Texas
and everything, and making sure all the

360
00:33:06.599 --> 00:33:09.960
stories had mouf on on them.
You know that we're talking about Stevenville because

361
00:33:09.960 --> 00:33:15.000
it was such a big story,
and in fact, it was our investigators

362
00:33:15.079 --> 00:33:17.799
going to putting together this meeting in
Dublin where they said, you know,

363
00:33:19.599 --> 00:33:24.440
these UFO researchers are descending on Dublin. And it turned out, you know,

364
00:33:24.480 --> 00:33:30.200
there was more media and more camera
than there were investigators or witnesses.

365
00:33:30.119 --> 00:33:37.440
But you know, afterwards, I
had sent the report to or at least

366
00:33:37.480 --> 00:33:40.480
a press release and some information to
the AP lady who broke the story and

367
00:33:40.480 --> 00:33:45.720
made it big in the first place, and I know she wrote something it

368
00:33:45.759 --> 00:33:49.519
wasn't very big, and a couple
of other places kind of mentioned it,

369
00:33:49.559 --> 00:33:54.839
but it didn't get that much attention. And really the most attention it got

370
00:33:54.920 --> 00:33:59.319
was on Larry King when you were
able to be on there with Glenn,

371
00:34:00.240 --> 00:34:05.359
and that was in things largely too. Angela Joyner as a reporter down there

372
00:34:05.359 --> 00:34:09.760
in Stephenville or was she Dublin,
No, she was Stephenville and Stephenville yeah,

373
00:34:09.800 --> 00:34:14.559
and she was the one who broke
the story and you know, Larry

374
00:34:14.639 --> 00:34:17.719
King was doing a whole episode on
this and UFOs and she was the one

375
00:34:17.760 --> 00:34:21.960
who really told them, you got
to have you know, these move on

376
00:34:22.039 --> 00:34:24.000
guys on, you got to have
Robert Pollan and Glenn because they did this

377
00:34:24.119 --> 00:34:30.280
incredible radar study and thanks to her, we got on there or you got

378
00:34:30.360 --> 00:34:34.000
on there. Yeah, and at
that you know, at about that same

379
00:34:34.159 --> 00:34:37.679
time. To give your audience kind
of a feel for the time frame that

380
00:34:37.760 --> 00:34:44.960
this event occurred on January eighth of
two thousand and eight, the big meeting

381
00:34:45.039 --> 00:34:49.559
in Dublin was on January nineteenth,
and that's when all the press came and

382
00:34:49.599 --> 00:34:54.039
it really hit the national wire and
news during that week, which was you

383
00:34:54.039 --> 00:34:59.920
know, getting towards the latter part
of January. Well, it took us,

384
00:35:00.199 --> 00:35:06.519
took Glenn and I until late June
early July to complete all of the

385
00:35:06.559 --> 00:35:09.840
analysis of that radar data. It
wasn't something we could just rapidly do.

386
00:35:10.760 --> 00:35:15.920
Well at that point in time,
you sent out a bunch of you know,

387
00:35:15.119 --> 00:35:20.119
information to try to get attention from
the national media, and Angela Joiner

388
00:35:20.159 --> 00:35:27.400
did also. She sent out i
think multiple packets to different media organizations,

389
00:35:28.039 --> 00:35:32.360
and there was really no interest in
it in it mostly because I think they

390
00:35:32.360 --> 00:35:37.039
were excited because of what happened in
January, but by the time June or

391
00:35:37.119 --> 00:35:43.360
July rolled around, you know that
they weren't excited about a radar report.

392
00:35:44.119 --> 00:35:49.920
True, And luckily Larry King was
going to cover the He was doing a

393
00:35:49.960 --> 00:35:52.760
lot of UFO stuff around that time, so luckily he was going to do

394
00:35:52.800 --> 00:35:58.480
his special on it, so we're
at least able to get some recognition for

395
00:35:58.639 --> 00:36:02.480
him, because I think that was
a really important study. It was good.

396
00:36:02.480 --> 00:36:07.480
And that was the Larry Kink Show
where he had from a SETI on

397
00:36:08.039 --> 00:36:15.039
seth Shusts shust Deck was on and
you know what's funny about the debates on

398
00:36:15.159 --> 00:36:23.800
that episode and on the show was
that the pro UFO guys and the skeptics

399
00:36:23.840 --> 00:36:30.360
like Shostak, they really weren't too
far apart. And it's unfortunate that sometimes

400
00:36:30.440 --> 00:36:38.440
people think they have to take a
oppositional type of stance where everything isn't always

401
00:36:38.440 --> 00:36:42.679
a debate. You can agree,
it's okay to agree on some things,

402
00:36:43.039 --> 00:36:46.159
and uh to point out when you
agree, and I mean, they were

403
00:36:46.199 --> 00:36:53.559
not really discounting your work at all. They were just saying, you know,

404
00:36:53.639 --> 00:37:00.840
there could be other answers, but
and that's a fair perspective. Yeah,

405
00:37:00.960 --> 00:37:04.239
yeah, you're right, And that
is what Seth said. He did

406
00:37:04.559 --> 00:37:07.679
not make any arguments against the work
that Glenn and I did. He just

407
00:37:07.719 --> 00:37:12.719
said, well, maybe there were
some other explanations, and he didn't really

408
00:37:12.760 --> 00:37:15.840
have any viable explanations. He was
just saying, well, maybe something else

409
00:37:15.920 --> 00:37:22.519
caused it, right, And so
in the aftermath, I mean, since

410
00:37:22.119 --> 00:37:30.920
have there been any new developments or
any new information or discovery that way now

411
00:37:31.000 --> 00:37:36.360
on the Stephenville case, there hasn't
been. The one thing that's interesting is

412
00:37:36.400 --> 00:37:40.800
that ever since that case, the
FAA no longer will allow us to have

413
00:37:42.280 --> 00:37:46.639
their raw radar data. And the
reason they give now is that they say

414
00:37:46.679 --> 00:37:52.920
it's a threat to the National Airways
to give that information out. So the

415
00:37:52.960 --> 00:37:57.559
only type of radar data you can
get from them now is it's basically a

416
00:37:57.599 --> 00:38:02.639
type of radar data that's been filtered
through their algorithms. But you can't cannot

417
00:38:02.719 --> 00:38:06.800
get their raw data. It's what
the raw data is what they call E

418
00:38:06.920 --> 00:38:12.239
writ E R I T data.
And they probably do you think they really

419
00:38:12.400 --> 00:38:15.840
thought you, you guys, what
they were going to do, because what

420
00:38:16.039 --> 00:38:20.840
this data is is, right,
a lot of single data points, like

421
00:38:21.400 --> 00:38:27.519
tons and tons of pieces of information
that you have to painstakingly analyze and put

422
00:38:27.519 --> 00:38:30.719
together. It's not an easy process. So why do if they even thought

423
00:38:30.760 --> 00:38:34.960
you would do this worse? Yeah, I don't think so. I don't

424
00:38:34.960 --> 00:38:39.199
think they had any idea we would. And then probably what got them concerned,

425
00:38:39.519 --> 00:38:44.519
you know, possibly more than anything
else, is that in the report

426
00:38:44.559 --> 00:38:47.760
we identify the locations of all the
f sixteens, where they went, when

427
00:38:47.800 --> 00:38:52.039
they left, when they came back, where they were in relation to the

428
00:38:52.039 --> 00:38:55.880
witnesses, So that that that may
have been a concern to them. I

429
00:38:55.880 --> 00:39:02.559
don't know, right, So interesting, And you said you've worked with you're

430
00:39:02.599 --> 00:39:08.480
working with someone now though to anime
the Uh yeah, uh. There's a

431
00:39:08.519 --> 00:39:16.119
guy in North Carolina by the name
of Russ Tiddall and he's a computer programmer,

432
00:39:16.239 --> 00:39:21.719
and I worked with him and he
wrote a program that basically allows me

433
00:39:22.400 --> 00:39:28.519
to put in the radar data and
then you get a visual animation of a

434
00:39:28.599 --> 00:39:32.039
radar screen and you see where the
radar site is, you can see the

435
00:39:32.119 --> 00:39:37.800
jets coming in, you can see
the unknown object. Movie. I did

436
00:39:37.800 --> 00:39:43.440
that because for most audiences, uh, seeing something like that is more meaningful

437
00:39:43.519 --> 00:39:50.960
to the than the original Excel files
that Glenny d that is very cool and

438
00:39:51.039 --> 00:39:55.880
when will that be done? I've
already completed some of it already, I

439
00:39:55.920 --> 00:40:02.880
bet Russ's he finished his program and
I entered in the Stephenville data and so

440
00:40:04.199 --> 00:40:08.519
you can actually see it in real
time as you look at the writar screen.

441
00:40:09.199 --> 00:40:14.960
How cool. That's really cool?
And how do people see that or

442
00:40:15.000 --> 00:40:20.880
is there a the ability for the
public to see that yet? I have

443
00:40:20.960 --> 00:40:22.960
not put it on YouTube or done
anything like that. Maybe I should.

444
00:40:23.599 --> 00:40:30.039
I have presented it a couple of
times, once at a conference that I

445
00:40:30.159 --> 00:40:35.880
was with with Angela up in near
the DFW area Dallas Fort Worth area,

446
00:40:36.239 --> 00:40:42.119
and then one in San Antonio at
a conference they're represented. How cool.

447
00:40:42.239 --> 00:40:46.280
That is so cool? Yeah,
I'd love to see that. Yeah,

448
00:40:46.280 --> 00:40:50.599
I'll show it to you. I
think you'll enjoy it. All right,

449
00:40:50.679 --> 00:40:53.199
Well, moving on from Stephenville.
You know, thanks for the update and

450
00:40:53.239 --> 00:40:57.800
the overview on that. I just
wanted to cover it because of the chasing

451
00:40:57.880 --> 00:41:01.039
UFOs, which, speaking of which
I don't think they covered the radar data

452
00:41:01.079 --> 00:41:06.440
either. I know they interviewed Angela
Joiner. But I think you said you

453
00:41:06.480 --> 00:41:10.559
weren't able to catch the episode,
so you're not fully versed on everything on

454
00:41:10.599 --> 00:41:15.719
it. But you know you weren't
on it, right, That's the one

455
00:41:15.800 --> 00:41:17.719
thing you know for sure. I
know that, which is too bad because

456
00:41:17.719 --> 00:41:21.840
that would have been a great piece
if they would have had the information on

457
00:41:21.880 --> 00:41:24.599
the radar. Hopefully you know,
Angela talked about it and they covered that.

458
00:41:29.000 --> 00:41:38.159
But another reason, another interesting development
is this book that you and others

459
00:41:38.280 --> 00:41:45.480
have been working on for a couple
of years now that I have been anxiously

460
00:41:45.679 --> 00:41:50.159
anticipating and so excited to get my
hands on, and that's a book called

461
00:41:50.159 --> 00:41:53.920
the UFOs and Government, a Historical
Inquiry. Maybe you could talk about some

462
00:41:54.079 --> 00:42:00.960
of the other people who worked on
this book and how you compiled this.

463
00:42:00.920 --> 00:42:06.559
Okay, yeah, I would be
glad to Alejandro. Let me say first

464
00:42:06.760 --> 00:42:10.159
that the goal of this book was
not your typical UFO book. The goal

465
00:42:10.280 --> 00:42:16.360
is for it to be an actual
historical book with facts, endnotes, bibliographies.

466
00:42:17.000 --> 00:42:23.400
It's a it's like a great reference
book on UFOs and government, and

467
00:42:23.480 --> 00:42:28.440
we tried to be as factual as
we can throughout the book. The UH

468
00:42:28.559 --> 00:42:31.159
and we've got some great authors.
It took us over four and a half

469
00:42:31.320 --> 00:42:37.679
years to finish this. We we
met together as a team, you know,

470
00:42:37.760 --> 00:42:43.800
we broke out and did various parts
of the various chapters. We have

471
00:42:44.079 --> 00:42:51.480
over two hundred photographs in the book. So it's a it's really a great

472
00:42:51.559 --> 00:42:54.559
book, if if I can say
so. Some of the authors was Michael

473
00:42:54.639 --> 00:43:00.880
Swords. He's he was probably a
primary author. And Mike is a professor

474
00:43:01.679 --> 00:43:07.480
out of Michigan. I think it's
I don't recall if it's Eastern Michigan University

475
00:43:07.559 --> 00:43:16.360
that he's a professor at. But
Mike is a great historian and he has

476
00:43:16.400 --> 00:43:21.840
a PhD and has done great work
in that area. He has got a

477
00:43:21.920 --> 00:43:24.400
room. I went to his home. He's got to room the size of

478
00:43:24.400 --> 00:43:31.519
my living room that is solid books, file cabinets. It's unbelievable. Wow.

479
00:43:32.119 --> 00:43:37.719
And then there's myself as an author. We have Klaus Spahn, who

480
00:43:37.840 --> 00:43:44.079
was one of the premier researchers of
UFOs in the country of Sweden. And

481
00:43:44.119 --> 00:43:51.719
then uh the Sinte Juan Baluster almost
who's a Spanish researcher. Bill Chalker,

482
00:43:51.800 --> 00:43:54.960
you probably a part of Bill.
He's out of Australia. And then of

483
00:43:54.960 --> 00:44:00.599
course Barry Greenwood, he's in the
US, but Barry's Uh, A lot

484
00:44:00.599 --> 00:44:07.880
of people are familiar with Barry Richard
than who actually gives conferences all over the

485
00:44:07.920 --> 00:44:12.960
world. He goes to Hacker conferences. Oh wow, Yeah, so he

486
00:44:13.559 --> 00:44:22.599
talks to Hacker conferences about kind of
the world behind everything. Jan aldrich who

487
00:44:23.159 --> 00:44:30.360
has probably done more research at the
National Archives and the University Archives than anyone

488
00:44:30.400 --> 00:44:36.199
alive today. And Steve Purcell and
Steve I believe what used to be the

489
00:44:36.239 --> 00:44:42.400
state director of Tennessee for muf on
and Steve also has a historian bent to

490
00:44:42.480 --> 00:44:47.559
him. And together all of us
put this book of five hundred and eighty

491
00:44:47.599 --> 00:44:52.480
pages together. How cool? I
mean, that is just really exciting.

492
00:44:52.559 --> 00:44:57.480
And I mean what you based it
off of? Right? Was it was?

493
00:44:58.159 --> 00:45:02.480
Is it purely based off of docum? Yes? It is purely based

494
00:45:02.519 --> 00:45:10.480
off of government documents either fo you
documents, all the types of government documents

495
00:45:10.519 --> 00:45:15.639
we could get our hands on back
up everything that we have in the book.

496
00:45:15.400 --> 00:45:23.159
But then I should note documents that
have solid what is the word I'm

497
00:45:23.199 --> 00:45:30.079
thinking of here? Uh? The
credibility is very high in which you know

498
00:45:31.960 --> 00:45:37.599
that these are government documents, right, right. These are these are government

499
00:45:37.639 --> 00:45:45.079
documents where it's not where there's no
doubt about the document. So the you

500
00:45:45.119 --> 00:45:51.239
know, these are all clear cut
like the Bolander membo. They're all documents

501
00:45:51.320 --> 00:45:57.599
like that provenance. That's what I'm
thinking of. So and we have I

502
00:45:57.599 --> 00:46:02.119
would say we probably have over a
thousand references throughout the book because every chapter

503
00:46:02.840 --> 00:46:07.400
has on average, i'd say around
forty to fifty in thoughes where we reference.

504
00:46:08.800 --> 00:46:12.639
There's indultes throughout the book, so
you can see whenever we make a

505
00:46:12.679 --> 00:46:16.519
statement that requires documentation, it's in
the book. So there's a lot of

506
00:46:16.880 --> 00:46:21.800
original sources in here. How cool, I mean, this is just so

507
00:46:21.920 --> 00:46:27.840
exciting, so many people working on
such an important effort. And that's what

508
00:46:27.880 --> 00:46:30.239
I mean. I mean, it's
how like you said, a great reference

509
00:46:30.880 --> 00:46:37.840
for solid, solid information that is
essentially I mean, it's not just you

510
00:46:37.880 --> 00:46:43.320
know, like the MG twelve documents, where a lot of their providences is

511
00:46:43.440 --> 00:46:50.239
under question because they're allegedly leaks documents. These are documents that come from you

512
00:46:50.679 --> 00:46:53.679
know, the source, and the
source is certainly government, where they're indisputable.

513
00:46:54.880 --> 00:47:00.320
Right. Yeah, these aren't ones
that I've ever heard any want to

514
00:47:00.320 --> 00:47:06.559
make arguments about but they're still exciting
information, right, I mean, how

515
00:47:06.599 --> 00:47:12.360
far does it go back? We
start with World War II and the food

516
00:47:12.360 --> 00:47:17.440
fighters, and we really weave a
story of history and how the government originally

517
00:47:17.480 --> 00:47:23.079
reacted. I mean, in the
beginning, when US pilots were seeing these

518
00:47:23.159 --> 00:47:30.440
balls of light in the European theater
as well as the Pacific theater, but

519
00:47:30.519 --> 00:47:36.400
more in the European theater, the
US government's first thought was, is this

520
00:47:36.400 --> 00:47:44.599
some new type of Nazi or Japanese
weapon, maybe some type of surveillance system.

521
00:47:45.280 --> 00:47:51.679
And as soon as the war was
over, the US government sent scientists

522
00:47:51.679 --> 00:47:57.039
to Germany and to Japan and interviewed
they're scientists to try to figure out what

523
00:47:57.079 --> 00:47:59.760
were those Was this some new weapon
they had that we want to get our

524
00:47:59.760 --> 00:48:05.320
hands saw, And the response we
got from the Germans was we thought it

525
00:48:05.360 --> 00:48:12.880
was yours. And so that begins
the story, and from there it goes

526
00:48:12.920 --> 00:48:22.039
into the ghost rock hit episodes that
occurred in the Scandinavian countries immediately after World

527
00:48:22.079 --> 00:48:25.119
War Two, and a lot of
the thought there was, well, somehow

528
00:48:25.239 --> 00:48:31.480
the Russians, the Soviets who had
obtained Nazi knowledge, because right the United

529
00:48:31.480 --> 00:48:35.599
States and Russia, we were and
of course at the end it was Soviet

530
00:48:35.679 --> 00:48:39.760
Union more than Russia. We didn't
really call it Russia. Both countries were

531
00:48:39.800 --> 00:48:45.440
trying to steal all the Nazis scientists
they could get. And a lot of

532
00:48:45.480 --> 00:48:51.480
people don't know that, but that's
how the United States and Soviet Union developed

533
00:48:51.519 --> 00:48:59.800
their space programs was by getting Nazi
scientists. So that was a concern when

534
00:48:59.840 --> 00:49:04.239
the ghost rockets started, and they
called them the ghost rockets back in forty

535
00:49:04.239 --> 00:49:07.159
six. So we talk about that
and we go through the evidence you know,

536
00:49:07.199 --> 00:49:14.840
that exists, how the United States
government reacted to it. We then

537
00:49:14.960 --> 00:49:22.519
go into nineteen forty seven where we're
seeing them where we first started seeing them

538
00:49:22.599 --> 00:49:30.199
in the United States, like with
Kenneth Arnold and other episodes besides just him.

539
00:49:30.360 --> 00:49:32.760
And in the first off with the
US was okay, the Soviets figured

540
00:49:32.760 --> 00:49:38.719
something out from their Nazi scientists and
these may be Soviet you know, reconnoissance

541
00:49:39.360 --> 00:49:45.920
systems of some type, and that
went up up the chain of command clear

542
00:49:45.960 --> 00:49:51.840
to the Pentagon. So some people
think that the military never really, you

543
00:49:51.880 --> 00:49:57.880
know, concerned themselves with UFOs.
That's the farthest from the truth. When

544
00:49:57.920 --> 00:50:01.239
this first happened, it was a
national secure issue. They had to find

545
00:50:01.239 --> 00:50:05.719
out what they were, and like
I said, their first thought was Soviet.

546
00:50:06.320 --> 00:50:12.159
And then once they figured it wasn't
Soviet, it turned to a team

547
00:50:12.320 --> 00:50:20.239
called a Sign Sign that was a
sign no pun intended, but had the

548
00:50:20.360 --> 00:50:25.800
job to figure out what were these. And that's an interesting case where the

549
00:50:25.880 --> 00:50:35.119
officers and scientists involved in that program
considered an extraterrestrial hypothesis as a possibility.

550
00:50:35.559 --> 00:50:38.599
They didn't say that's what it was, but what they did say was it

551
00:50:38.639 --> 00:50:45.480
wasn't Soviet. And they said,
it's a physical reality. It physically exists,

552
00:50:45.599 --> 00:50:51.280
it has shape, it shows up
on radar. You know, we've

553
00:50:51.280 --> 00:50:57.920
had reliable people identify these objects.
And so they said, one possibility is

554
00:50:58.000 --> 00:51:01.840
that it comes from outside of the
Earth. Well, and that was what

555
00:51:01.880 --> 00:51:06.760
they called their estimate, And in
the military that's what they usually do when

556
00:51:07.840 --> 00:51:10.920
when you're trying to figure something out, they order an estimate. So their

557
00:51:12.000 --> 00:51:15.960
estimate went up the flagpole, and
when it got up to the Pentagon,

558
00:51:17.199 --> 00:51:22.719
the reply came back, no,
we're not going to say anything like that

559
00:51:22.880 --> 00:51:29.719
at all, and then they eliminated
that estimate, and to this day no

560
00:51:29.760 --> 00:51:34.079
one has gotten a copy of it. There are people such as al chop

561
00:51:35.639 --> 00:51:39.119
a guy who was in the Air
Force back in the forties in fifties,

562
00:51:39.400 --> 00:51:45.000
who says he saw the estimate,
but it's not available. You can't get

563
00:51:45.039 --> 00:51:50.000
your hands on it. So what
did happen is they wrote a new estimate,

564
00:51:50.800 --> 00:51:55.480
and the new estimate took out the
part about any possibility of it being

565
00:51:55.599 --> 00:52:02.840
extraterrestrial. And we go from there
in the you know, the book goes

566
00:52:04.800 --> 00:52:09.280
all the way up until modern times
like Phoenix Slides and Stephenville. Now,

567
00:52:09.320 --> 00:52:22.679
did you grab some insight into in
these documents? And I know Rupert Rupel,

568
00:52:22.000 --> 00:52:25.760
yeah, Rupel, you know kind
of you in his book when he

569
00:52:25.920 --> 00:52:30.119
was running the Blue Book, you
can kind of see this. But did

570
00:52:30.199 --> 00:52:35.880
you get a strong feeling as to
where and how things change from taking this

571
00:52:36.920 --> 00:52:43.519
phenomena as a serious investigation to kind
of pushing it under the rug or kind

572
00:52:43.519 --> 00:52:45.960
of a hot potato that we don't
want to deal with this anymore. Right.

573
00:52:46.159 --> 00:52:52.760
It kind of started in the early
fifties, especially in nineteen fifty two

574
00:52:52.840 --> 00:53:00.039
when all you know, when there
was the General Sanford had his conference in

575
00:53:00.079 --> 00:53:05.400
Washington, d C. Because there
were all these UFOs over the Capitol and

576
00:53:05.440 --> 00:53:08.840
they were showing up on radar there, and the Congress was getting involved.

577
00:53:09.119 --> 00:53:14.760
President Truman was involved, and it
was like, okay, what's going on?

578
00:53:15.639 --> 00:53:22.639
And basically the Air Force couldn't explain
what was going on, and so

579
00:53:22.800 --> 00:53:28.639
that once all that dust settled down, they put together a panel called the

580
00:53:28.719 --> 00:53:32.639
Robertson Panel, and that was a
panel of scientists. But when you go

581
00:53:32.679 --> 00:53:37.360
and you read the documents and just
read what these guys talked about it,

582
00:53:37.360 --> 00:53:40.960
it's like these guys get together and
they're like, well, I don't really

583
00:53:40.960 --> 00:53:45.000
have time to be here. I've
got to be somewhere else. How long

584
00:53:45.039 --> 00:53:49.480
will Lesson take us to get this
resolved? And you can tell there's not

585
00:53:49.559 --> 00:53:52.960
a whole lot of interest in it, but they do spend some time,

586
00:53:53.719 --> 00:54:00.360
and after a few weeks of effort
go go by, and they meet with

587
00:54:00.400 --> 00:54:07.000
the CIA, they meet with the
Air Force, and they come out with

588
00:54:07.039 --> 00:54:12.280
some recommendations. And probably the key
recommendation they have is that this is not

589
00:54:12.400 --> 00:54:17.760
a national security issue, which was
probably that's a true statement for the information

590
00:54:17.840 --> 00:54:22.480
they had. And then the other
statement they have is but it could be

591
00:54:22.599 --> 00:54:30.960
a national security issue in terms of
the American populace gets excited about these they

592
00:54:30.000 --> 00:54:37.320
clog up the phone lines, and
should there ever be if the Soviets were

593
00:54:37.400 --> 00:54:43.920
to use something like this to divert
our attention, it could be a national

594
00:54:43.960 --> 00:54:47.440
security issue. So one of their
decisions was, well, we need to

595
00:54:47.559 --> 00:54:52.679
educate the public that there is no
such there's nothing to this, so that

596
00:54:52.719 --> 00:54:57.760
we can eliminate. In other words, they're saying, the objects themselves aren't

597
00:54:57.760 --> 00:55:01.239
a national security issue, only the
people fascination with them. We can eliminate

598
00:55:01.440 --> 00:55:07.039
that, then we eliminate the only
true national security issue that we think exists.

599
00:55:08.480 --> 00:55:14.280
And so that's where they put together
programs what they wanted to educate the

600
00:55:14.320 --> 00:55:20.719
public and to kind of poo poo
the whole concept of a flying saucers or

601
00:55:20.840 --> 00:55:28.159
UFOs. Now, their logic,
if I'm not mistaken, is that to

602
00:55:28.199 --> 00:55:31.679
this idea that they're not a national
security threat, is that they hadn't seen

603
00:55:31.840 --> 00:55:40.880
any evidence of this phenomena of being
aggressive or posing a threat. That's correct,

604
00:55:40.920 --> 00:55:45.360
They had not seen In all the
documents we ever saw, we never

605
00:55:45.440 --> 00:55:50.960
saw one that established, you know, for sure, that these were ever

606
00:55:51.000 --> 00:55:55.239
a threat. The UFOs wherever a
threat. So do you think they considered

607
00:55:55.280 --> 00:55:59.320
that, you know, it's a
real phenomena, and it's just that at

608
00:55:59.400 --> 00:56:02.480
least, you know, not opposing
a threat to the whatever it is,

609
00:56:02.559 --> 00:56:07.519
it's not coming in and trying to
to down our plane, So it is

610
00:56:08.800 --> 00:56:15.559
something benign. And do you think
that's their sense or do you think they

611
00:56:16.039 --> 00:56:22.519
felt maybe it was a mythology and
in that case then it's something I think,

612
00:56:22.119 --> 00:56:25.360
you know, when you read all
the documents and you go back into

613
00:56:25.480 --> 00:56:32.000
that era of history. I think
what happened was the Air Force did all

614
00:56:32.039 --> 00:56:36.400
they could to try to figure out, Okay, what is this and is

615
00:56:36.440 --> 00:56:39.880
this a national security issue? And
once they decided that the answer was no,

616
00:56:40.599 --> 00:56:45.039
it's not a national security issue,
but we don't have any idea what

617
00:56:45.159 --> 00:56:50.400
it is, right, So then
it became an issue of okay, we

618
00:56:50.440 --> 00:56:54.000
don't know what it is. It's
not national security, but we can't write

619
00:56:54.239 --> 00:56:58.519
if you put yourself in nurshoes,
you can't go to the public or Congress

620
00:56:58.519 --> 00:57:00.800
and say, you know, it's
not a national security issue, but I

621
00:57:00.880 --> 00:57:07.079
have no idea what it is.
I mean, you would just be constantly

622
00:57:07.159 --> 00:57:12.320
hounded. So that's when I believe
they decided, okay, we need to

623
00:57:12.360 --> 00:57:15.800
get this, you know, sweeped
under the road, get it off our

624
00:57:15.800 --> 00:57:20.880
shoulders, you know, we don't
want to deal with it. And and

625
00:57:20.920 --> 00:57:23.840
that's when that started, and it
seems that's been the policy ever since.

626
00:57:25.280 --> 00:57:31.360
Uh yeah, it changed a little. Uh you know, they we had

627
00:57:32.079 --> 00:57:39.559
Project blue Book after Project Grudge and
then the Colorado Committee, which its purpose

628
00:57:39.679 --> 00:57:44.039
was to you know, to squash
and get rid of Project blue Book.

629
00:57:44.400 --> 00:57:49.440
Because after they got rid of it, then the policy seemed to have shifted

630
00:57:49.440 --> 00:57:55.360
a little more basically just totally ignoring
it. In terms of the public in

631
00:57:55.360 --> 00:58:00.280
other words, you don't you don't
comment at all. And if you look

632
00:58:00.320 --> 00:58:08.800
at history after nineteen sixty nine,
it was very unusual that you ever got

633
00:58:08.880 --> 00:58:14.440
a comment regarding UFOs by the Air
Force. In the fifties and sixties,

634
00:58:14.679 --> 00:58:19.199
you always got comments. Every time
there was a major siding, the Air

635
00:58:19.239 --> 00:58:22.000
Force would come out and say you
know, they'd say, okay, no,

636
00:58:22.119 --> 00:58:24.400
we don't think it's this, or
we think it's something else. But

637
00:58:24.519 --> 00:58:30.599
they always would comment. Once you
pass sixty nine, those comments stop,

638
00:58:30.519 --> 00:58:35.760
and every once in a while there's
exceptions, but in general that's what happens.

639
00:58:36.079 --> 00:58:43.199
One of the exceptions was Stephenville when
Angela Joyner called that major at Carswell,

640
00:58:43.599 --> 00:58:50.119
if he had done what other Air
Force officials have been doing for the

641
00:58:50.199 --> 00:58:54.119
last forty years. He would have
just said, we don't know anything about

642
00:58:54.239 --> 00:59:00.480
UFO any UFOs, and we don't
know report on that that was taking care

643
00:59:00.480 --> 00:59:02.760
of in nineteen sixty nine with a
Colorado project, and that would have been

644
00:59:02.840 --> 00:59:07.599
ended the store. But this guy
was a little more kind of a talkative

645
00:59:07.679 --> 00:59:12.239
kind of guy. According to Angelino, he was actually a fun guy to

646
00:59:12.280 --> 00:59:15.480
talk to. When she first talked
to him, and so he started saying,

647
00:59:15.480 --> 00:59:16.960
well, I'll check on it.
No, we don't have any airplanes,

648
00:59:17.079 --> 00:59:21.400
and well maybe it was the sun
glinting off a plane, you know.

649
00:59:21.480 --> 00:59:27.239
He started kicking these ideas around.
And then when it turned out that

650
00:59:27.639 --> 00:59:34.519
there had been planes in the air
and she and she finally called him back,

651
00:59:34.599 --> 00:59:37.000
he wasn't his boisterous self anymore.
She said. All he would say

652
00:59:37.119 --> 00:59:42.119
was I'm sorry, miss Joiner,
but all I can say is and then

653
00:59:42.159 --> 00:59:45.239
he would read off this piece of
paper and say, you know, we

654
00:59:45.280 --> 00:59:47.440
don't know anything about this, blah
blah blah. We made a mistake about

655
00:59:47.480 --> 00:59:51.480
the planes. And that's all he
would say. And she would ask him

656
00:59:51.480 --> 00:59:52.119
with you know, oh, come
on, no, you were you know

657
00:59:52.159 --> 00:59:54.880
you told me before, and he'd
go, I'm sorry, miss Joiner,

658
00:59:54.920 --> 01:00:00.639
this is all I can say.
And so he obviously out in a lot

659
01:00:00.639 --> 01:00:04.880
of trouble. If he had just
done what they normally do, he would

660
01:00:04.880 --> 01:00:07.480
have been okay because he would have
just not commented any it all right.

661
01:00:07.920 --> 01:00:13.800
And he was saying due to a
clerical error, and I think, but

662
01:00:13.840 --> 01:00:16.760
there were planes in the area,
and now this is prior to you all

663
01:00:17.760 --> 01:00:23.400
coming out with your findings. Do
you think that prompted him since you,

664
01:00:25.639 --> 01:00:30.599
with your radar daddy, you were
going to be able to establish that there

665
01:00:30.599 --> 01:00:36.519
were military exercises in the area.
You know, that's hard to say,

666
01:00:37.280 --> 01:00:39.639
you know, especially when you're dealing
with a bureaucracy. I mean, they

667
01:00:39.679 --> 01:00:44.760
may have made a mistake and finally
figured out that you know, their error,

668
01:00:44.800 --> 01:00:49.599
and would have told the error independent
of us having the radar data,

669
01:00:49.920 --> 01:00:53.280
where it's possible they knew radar data
had been given out and that someone might

670
01:00:53.320 --> 01:00:59.800
figure it out. So, you
know, it's hard to say. What

671
01:01:00.079 --> 01:01:04.440
thing. You know, going back
to the Robertson panel and then later the

672
01:01:04.440 --> 01:01:10.639
Colorado project, you know, in
researching this and reading the documents, for

673
01:01:10.679 --> 01:01:15.719
example, Mike Swort and I went
down to Texas A and M University and

674
01:01:15.079 --> 01:01:25.159
College station where uh, some of
the documents from the Colorado Project are or

675
01:01:25.280 --> 01:01:31.320
still exist, and they exist in
the papers of a guy by the name

676
01:01:31.360 --> 01:01:37.360
of Roy Craig. Roy Craig,
towards the latter part of the Colorado Colorado

677
01:01:37.400 --> 01:01:46.559
Project became basically Condon's main guy after
he fired a couple of other guys that

678
01:01:46.639 --> 01:01:54.119
he had there. And what becomes
real clear for anyone who's dealt with scientists

679
01:01:54.960 --> 01:02:01.480
as to what happened was this,
You've got the head guy and he's not

680
01:02:01.639 --> 01:02:06.920
really interested in this project at all. He only did it as a favor

681
01:02:07.079 --> 01:02:10.599
because he had a lot of friends
in government offices, so he did it

682
01:02:10.639 --> 01:02:16.559
as a favor, and basically these
scientists were underneath them. They went off

683
01:02:16.639 --> 01:02:23.960
and tried to figure things out.
And if anyone reads the whole thousand page

684
01:02:24.400 --> 01:02:28.519
call It out of project, you'll
see some of those guys said, hey,

685
01:02:28.840 --> 01:02:31.760
there's things here we can't explain,
and they're not terrestrial. There's just

686
01:02:31.800 --> 01:02:37.440
no explanation for him. You know, it's some unknown phenomenon or whatever.

687
01:02:37.199 --> 01:02:44.199
Well, what once Condon comes back
and you know it's getting time to come

688
01:02:44.199 --> 01:02:47.320
out with the report. You know, he's upset that some of these guys

689
01:02:47.360 --> 01:02:53.239
are thinking that, oh oh maybe
there's something to UFOs. So he puts

690
01:02:53.280 --> 01:02:58.480
the squash to that real quick,
and a couple of guys get fired.

691
01:02:59.760 --> 01:03:02.760
He rewrite, he wrote, basically
writes the summary report, and if you

692
01:03:02.800 --> 01:03:07.960
read the whole document, the summary
report doesn't reflect what the rest of the

693
01:03:07.000 --> 01:03:10.440
document says, right, And lots
of people have said it's as if he

694
01:03:10.480 --> 01:03:15.559
wrote that summary without even reading the
rest of the document, which is some

695
01:03:15.639 --> 01:03:21.360
of these guys suggests is entirely possible. Oh yeah, I don't think he

696
01:03:21.400 --> 01:03:24.920
did read it. And the amazing
thing is the National Academy of Sciences came

697
01:03:24.960 --> 01:03:34.639
out and endorsed his summary of it. So obviously those guys the entire article.

698
01:03:35.000 --> 01:03:37.840
And the thing is when I went
through Roy Craig's notes and everything,

699
01:03:38.599 --> 01:03:44.360
and because I've worked with a lot
of PhDs when I was in the semiconductor

700
01:03:44.400 --> 01:03:49.559
field, and it's real typical.
It's like he's got this job and he's

701
01:03:49.599 --> 01:03:52.320
doing it and he hits a barrier, right, like sometimes the Air Force

702
01:03:52.360 --> 01:03:55.760
wouldn't give him information. Well,
he just he bounces off the wall.

703
01:03:55.800 --> 01:03:59.679
He didn't try to go back through
the wall. He doesn't go try to

704
01:03:59.679 --> 01:04:02.840
get one to you know, push
the Air Force to why they won't give

705
01:04:02.880 --> 01:04:08.320
him information, Like there was a
case at Edwards Air Force Base and he

706
01:04:08.400 --> 01:04:10.920
was trying to investigate it and they
just said, no, we don't have

707
01:04:10.960 --> 01:04:14.800
anything, and so he just ended
it right there. He didn't go any

708
01:04:14.840 --> 01:04:19.800
farther. There was a guy,
and there's a tape recording on this.

709
01:04:19.800 --> 01:04:27.880
This is a Boeing engineer who was
working as a radar technician for the Army,

710
01:04:28.079 --> 01:04:35.920
stationed at an Army Air Corps base
in Newton, Jersey during about in

711
01:04:36.000 --> 01:04:39.360
nineteen fifty two. So I actually
it would have been Air Force, not

712
01:04:39.480 --> 01:04:45.320
Army Air Corps by fifty two.
So he was stationed as a radar operator

713
01:04:45.440 --> 01:04:48.000
and this was one of the UFO
signings near Washington, d C. Were

714
01:04:48.000 --> 01:04:56.679
occurring. Oh, they were getting
constant objects on the radar and they were

715
01:04:56.679 --> 01:05:00.360
sending up f eighty five. Well, so condent In interviews this guy and

716
01:05:00.440 --> 01:05:05.239
he tells connon excuse me. Roy
Craig interviews him and he tells Roy Craig

717
01:05:05.960 --> 01:05:11.920
on the tape, he says,
we received orders that came straight down from

718
01:05:11.960 --> 01:05:15.320
the pen of Gone that we were
to fire on one of these objects,

719
01:05:16.000 --> 01:05:20.480
and he said, we had our
ninety millimeter cannon tied car radar, and

720
01:05:20.559 --> 01:05:28.559
the F eighty fives were loaded with
their missiles and with their light machine gun

721
01:05:28.679 --> 01:05:31.119
or white cannon to fire on the
object. He said, one of the

722
01:05:31.199 --> 01:05:36.280
F eighty five. F eighty five
was closing in on the object and was

723
01:05:36.400 --> 01:05:41.440
ready to fire, and then the
object just disappeared off his screen. It's

724
01:05:41.480 --> 01:05:46.039
just like zipped off gone. But
the thing is right, here's a guy

725
01:05:46.079 --> 01:05:51.679
who's supposed to be investigating in the
Colorade of project. He gets a report

726
01:05:51.719 --> 01:05:59.639
like that. What in his notes? He asked the you know the Boeing

727
01:05:59.639 --> 01:06:03.239
engine here, Can you give me
any more information on that? Send me

728
01:06:03.239 --> 01:06:06.039
a letter. Well the guy didn't
send him a letter, so he drops.

729
01:06:06.079 --> 01:06:12.199
It doesn't even show up in the
Colorado Project, right. But you

730
01:06:12.239 --> 01:06:16.000
know, it makes you wonder if
if our military, and this isn't the

731
01:06:16.039 --> 01:06:23.119
only time this has happened, gives
pilots the right in the order to fire

732
01:06:23.519 --> 01:06:29.039
on an unidentified flying object. Clearly
they think it physically exists, because they're

733
01:06:29.079 --> 01:06:33.960
not telling them to fire at lights
in the sky, right, right.

734
01:06:34.039 --> 01:06:38.199
And so the question, well,
there's a lot of questions raised. But

735
01:06:41.079 --> 01:06:45.719
well, I guess this would be
the question. I'm sure I would imagine

736
01:06:45.000 --> 01:06:50.119
that you came across other cases in
which pilots were ordered to fire. It

737
01:06:50.159 --> 01:06:57.199
makes me think of Milton Torres or
some others. Well, did you come

738
01:06:57.239 --> 01:07:02.599
across other ports? The one that
I mentioned is the only one we talk

739
01:07:02.719 --> 01:07:08.960
about other than Mildred Torres, which
you mentioned, And we don't have him

740
01:07:09.000 --> 01:07:12.000
in the book actually, because that
occurred in Great Britain, and we don't

741
01:07:12.039 --> 01:07:18.159
actually and we didn't have any documents
right on the case. This one we

742
01:07:18.239 --> 01:07:24.960
have in the book because we have
the tape recording of Roy Craig, one

743
01:07:25.000 --> 01:07:30.679
of the Colorader Project scientists, interviewing
this Boeing engineer. So that's why we

744
01:07:30.760 --> 01:07:35.119
have that one be at the invidence. So, as as a researcher,

745
01:07:35.239 --> 01:07:44.000
though, do you feel that this
probably wasn't the first time that it seems

746
01:07:44.039 --> 01:07:50.199
to be fairly consistent story. Yeah, you know, I wouldn't say that

747
01:07:50.239 --> 01:07:57.119
they did it on a regular basis, but I'm I'm sure that there were

748
01:07:57.199 --> 01:08:02.480
multiple times other times that we've never
heard about where they ordered aircraft to fire

749
01:08:02.559 --> 01:08:10.000
on these And so I wonder and
you probably wonder this, But do you

750
01:08:10.000 --> 01:08:15.199
think they ever hit one? No, I don't think they. I don't

751
01:08:15.639 --> 01:08:18.239
think they would have ever won.
Yeah, and I could. I could

752
01:08:18.279 --> 01:08:23.840
see that. Some people may disagree. But in other stories, and I'm

753
01:08:23.880 --> 01:08:30.239
sure you have these where at least
military was told to chase them or to

754
01:08:31.000 --> 01:08:35.720
follow them, you know they shoot
off at really quick speeds. Oh yeah,

755
01:08:35.800 --> 01:08:40.880
yeah, I mean definitely that.
We have multiple cases where the military

756
01:08:40.960 --> 01:08:46.399
has ordered jets to intercept without saying
fire on them. That happened in Washington,

757
01:08:46.479 --> 01:08:51.720
d C. That happened in Belgium
with the F sixteens on the triangle

758
01:08:51.800 --> 01:08:59.720
that was there. That I can't
recall the other cases, I think,

759
01:09:00.079 --> 01:09:03.880
but I do believe we have a
couple of other cases where well the Mantel

760
01:09:03.960 --> 01:09:08.720
case, for example, where his
plane crashed, that was a case where

761
01:09:08.800 --> 01:09:16.399
he was trying to intercept. Another
one that's really interesting is the one I

762
01:09:16.399 --> 01:09:19.680
believe it was either in month No. No, I thought this is either

763
01:09:19.680 --> 01:09:29.079
North or South Dakota, where basically
a B fifty two strategic nuclear bomber was

764
01:09:29.119 --> 01:09:33.720
coming back in It was my not
South Dakota, and he was going to

765
01:09:33.840 --> 01:09:40.760
land, and they told him not
to land, but to continue to fly

766
01:09:40.920 --> 01:09:45.439
around because there was a UFO that
was being seen from the ground and they

767
01:09:45.479 --> 01:09:50.960
wanted him to fly near it.
That's the case that we talk about briefly,

768
01:09:51.039 --> 01:09:58.000
and also the case in Iran.
I believe that's nineteen seventy six or

769
01:09:58.039 --> 01:10:04.439
seventy two. That case we talk
about also where Iranian pilots were ordered to

770
01:10:04.479 --> 01:10:13.680
intercept a UFO that was seen there. And often it's like this cat and

771
01:10:13.720 --> 01:10:16.960
dog type of thing where and the
object just takes off quickly. Oh yeah,

772
01:10:17.079 --> 01:10:19.960
it's just gone. You know.
It's like you know, I mean,

773
01:10:20.079 --> 01:10:28.880
same thing with the Alaska Airliner in
nineteen eighty six. I believe they're

774
01:10:29.000 --> 01:10:32.520
the you know, the jet.
The FAA had the jet fly at three

775
01:10:32.680 --> 01:10:40.319
sixty around Fairbanks to see if the
object would disappear. Yeah, I'm sure

776
01:10:40.319 --> 01:10:43.000
they did that. Say okay,
maybe there's this guy looking at Venus or

777
01:10:43.039 --> 01:10:45.000
the moon or something, and now
it does. You know, it stays

778
01:10:45.039 --> 01:10:50.920
with him the whole time, and
it's picked up on radar. So yeah,

779
01:10:50.960 --> 01:10:59.279
it's like it's like whatever this phenomenon
is, it's able to do whatever

780
01:10:59.319 --> 01:11:06.319
it wants and it wants to.
Now I'm sure your book doesn't end in

781
01:11:06.399 --> 01:11:13.359
sixty nine and then pick up later
again with Stephenville. So even though you

782
01:11:13.399 --> 01:11:16.359
know in the surface the Air Force
is saying they don't investigate sightings anymore,

783
01:11:17.359 --> 01:11:23.399
I would imagine you found documents to
show that there were some investigations after sixty

784
01:11:23.479 --> 01:11:28.399
nine. Yeah, what we show
is there were things that happened after sixty

785
01:11:28.479 --> 01:11:32.880
nine, and it makes you know
that there had to be plenty of others

786
01:11:32.920 --> 01:11:40.039
because it was very difficult to find
the information on anything after sixty nine,

787
01:11:40.760 --> 01:11:44.680
after nineteen sixty nine. But you
know, one of the first ones we

788
01:11:44.800 --> 01:11:49.319
talked to is is talk about is
one that Barry Greenwood talks about that happened

789
01:11:49.359 --> 01:11:55.840
in the United States in the early
seventies up in the area of Maine where

790
01:11:57.079 --> 01:12:04.319
I think of Loring Air Force where
there was some unknown object that went over

791
01:12:04.359 --> 01:12:15.880
the base and somehow someone obtained the
information on this through a FOYA. It's

792
01:12:15.960 --> 01:12:23.119
documented very well in Barry Greenwood's book
called Clear Intent. But that was an

793
01:12:23.119 --> 01:12:27.399
example, right because Blue Book,
I mean the Project blue Book no longer

794
01:12:27.439 --> 01:12:32.680
existed, yet here were all these
government documents about this event that occurred in

795
01:12:32.760 --> 01:12:41.479
nineteen seventy five over lowering Air Force
base in Main and then the case up

796
01:12:41.520 --> 01:12:48.279
in Iran with the F four Phantom
jets. That was the case again that

797
01:12:49.800 --> 01:12:56.039
someone happened to get a hold of
a Department of Defense document that talked about

798
01:12:56.079 --> 01:13:00.920
it, but it was nothing that
the government, you know, you could

799
01:13:00.960 --> 01:13:05.199
easily get. You just have to
get lucky and find those things. Same

800
01:13:05.239 --> 01:13:14.520
thing with the with the Alaska airliner
in nineteen eighty six, the the military

801
01:13:14.800 --> 01:13:19.640
actually asked the FAA if they wanted
them to send up intercept pilots, you

802
01:13:19.640 --> 01:13:24.399
know, at sixteens to intercept you
know whatever the object was next to the

803
01:13:24.520 --> 01:13:29.279
Japanese airliner. Wow. And it
was the Japanese airliner pilot that said,

804
01:13:29.359 --> 01:13:31.560
no, I don't I don't want, I don't need any you know,

805
01:13:31.840 --> 01:13:39.319
F sixteen sent up Wow. So
how many about you know, how many

806
01:13:41.039 --> 01:13:48.000
cases did you find from sixty nine
on? It's a limited number of cases

807
01:13:48.079 --> 01:13:55.600
from sixty nine on. Uh,
there's probably maybe eight cases that you know,

808
01:13:55.640 --> 01:13:59.279
we were able to find documentation on
to show that you know, the

809
01:13:59.279 --> 01:14:03.760
government was reacting to it. One
of the cases we talk about also that

810
01:14:03.880 --> 01:14:10.720
occurs after that timeframe is Roswell.
And the reason we talk about that is

811
01:14:11.039 --> 01:14:15.760
not whether or not Roswell really occurred
or didn't occur. We talk about it

812
01:14:15.800 --> 01:14:24.760
because the Air Force reacted to everyone's
concerns about Roswell and came out with what

813
01:14:24.800 --> 01:14:31.680
we believe were bogus reports, the
Roswell Report and their other report Roswell Report

814
01:14:31.760 --> 01:14:40.399
Case Closed, where they create these
dummies that they said were what people were

815
01:14:40.439 --> 01:14:44.720
seeing, and those dummies didn't even
exist back then. So it was like,

816
01:14:46.159 --> 01:14:53.399
we identify that because it gives you
an example of how the government reacts

817
01:14:53.399 --> 01:14:57.880
to the phenomenon. In this case, they're reacting to how the public's reacting

818
01:14:57.920 --> 01:15:03.000
to the phenomenon. So yeah,
then that's the last case that we that

819
01:15:03.079 --> 01:15:12.359
we talk about. From there we
go into other countries' histories. So I

820
01:15:12.359 --> 01:15:17.079
guess it comes down to, Oh, I guess what are some of the

821
01:15:17.119 --> 01:15:20.720
other countries you cover? Before I
get into that, Uh, well,

822
01:15:20.800 --> 01:15:25.640
let me tell you about some of
the countries to the countries we don't cover,

823
01:15:25.760 --> 01:15:29.079
for example, or England and Canada. And the reason we don't cover

824
01:15:29.159 --> 01:15:31.520
them is you don't like them,
right, we don't like them. They

825
01:15:31.560 --> 01:15:41.359
speak the wrong kind of way they
talk, something called the Queen's English.

826
01:15:41.439 --> 01:15:45.119
Yeah. No, actually, we
don't really go into those simply because they're

827
01:15:45.319 --> 01:15:51.039
very close a military allies the United
States, especially Canada as well as England,

828
01:15:51.319 --> 01:15:57.880
and the way they treat the UFO
phenomenon is the same way the United

829
01:15:57.880 --> 01:16:01.039
States did. So we didn't see
any you know, any value in going

830
01:16:01.039 --> 01:16:05.119
through THEIRS. What we did do
is we showed some other countries to give

831
01:16:05.159 --> 01:16:12.479
a flavor of how countries that aren't
necessarily close allies of the United States,

832
01:16:12.520 --> 01:16:16.119
how they dealt with the phenomenon.
And for example, we we go through

833
01:16:16.159 --> 01:16:24.319
the history the Swedish Sweden's experience with
the phenomenon. Yeah, and one of

834
01:16:24.359 --> 01:16:29.560
the interesting things about the Swedish experience
is that the military worked closely with the

835
01:16:29.600 --> 01:16:34.079
civilian agency, unlike you know the
US experience. Yeah, they don't work

836
01:16:34.119 --> 01:16:41.520
with us. Yeah. And we
then we talk about the Australian UH incidents

837
01:16:41.600 --> 01:16:48.600
simply because there's some really interesting ones
in Australian and one point in time where

838
01:16:48.600 --> 01:16:55.760
there was almost a nuclear war that
occurred. Wow, and so that one

839
01:16:56.079 --> 01:17:00.840
and and that that one's written by
Bill Chalker. It's really interesting and UH

840
01:17:00.960 --> 01:17:10.039
in other words, like they were
mistaking uh unidentified objects for enemy ships that

841
01:17:10.600 --> 01:17:15.520
and so they were about ready to
push some buttons. Right, Well,

842
01:17:15.720 --> 01:17:20.199
there was a concern about UH and
I don't want to get this one wrong

843
01:17:20.359 --> 01:17:24.960
because this is you know, Bill's
kind of chapter that he wrote. But

844
01:17:25.560 --> 01:17:32.000
there's a an incident where a nuclear
alert UH goes into play and at the

845
01:17:32.039 --> 01:17:38.279
same time there's a nuclear alert,
there's these UFO sightings. So there was

846
01:17:38.359 --> 01:17:42.399
this concern that you know, could
that could they could the UFOs send the

847
01:17:42.479 --> 01:17:47.079
nuclear alert to a higher level?
And the new the initial nuclear alert occurred

848
01:17:47.119 --> 01:17:51.800
because of the situation that had occurred
in Israel. Oh okay, uh,

849
01:17:51.840 --> 01:17:57.680
so it was a Middle Eastern thing
that initiated it all. But then the

850
01:17:57.840 --> 01:18:01.720
UFOs being in the area at the
time of that just worsened the you know,

851
01:18:01.800 --> 01:18:12.600
the potential for a disaster. And
then the Spanish chapter is very interesting.

852
01:18:14.319 --> 01:18:20.479
It goes into basically how Spain turned
over all of their UFO files to

853
01:18:20.560 --> 01:18:27.319
a civilian organization and work with them
on it. But my favorite chapter is

854
01:18:27.359 --> 01:18:33.560
France. And I guess the reason
I really like that chapter other than I

855
01:18:33.600 --> 01:18:41.960
wrote it is of all the countries, France is the only one that took

856
01:18:42.000 --> 01:18:47.359
the UFO phenomenon out of the military
arena of national security because it doesn't matter

857
01:18:47.359 --> 01:18:54.359
what country you're talking about. If
your military organization is dealing with the UFO

858
01:18:54.439 --> 01:18:59.399
phenomenon, they're going to deal with
it from the aspect of national security because

859
01:18:59.399 --> 01:19:02.680
that's what they do. They protected
a nation. Well that's the way the

860
01:19:02.720 --> 01:19:09.479
French started off. But then a
guy by the name of doctor Claude Pohare

861
01:19:09.960 --> 01:19:14.920
convinced the head of the authorities there, once they realized it was not a

862
01:19:15.000 --> 01:19:18.000
national security issue, that it should
be turned over to their space agency,

863
01:19:19.279 --> 01:19:30.039
and so Japan was made a sub
organization under the French National Space Agency.

864
01:19:31.199 --> 01:19:38.239
And so they are probably the only
country of which I'm aware that they actually

865
01:19:38.319 --> 01:19:44.840
used scientists and tried their best to
use scientific methods to analyze the phenomena.

866
01:19:45.399 --> 01:19:50.800
I mean, they did some great
work on a case in Trod's m Provos

867
01:19:51.000 --> 01:20:00.119
where they took both soil samples and
vegetation samples, and so that's really a

868
01:20:00.279 --> 01:20:04.359
chapter of I think, how how
it would be nice if that's the way

869
01:20:04.399 --> 01:20:09.239
the United States approaches it. Yeah, Yeah, that's what's exciting about the

870
01:20:09.279 --> 01:20:13.319
French. And I know some people
like to make fun of the French,

871
01:20:13.399 --> 01:20:18.760
but as far as UFO's go,
it's so exciting that it's they're they're equivalent

872
01:20:18.840 --> 01:20:26.760
to NASA. That's it's doing this
investigation and taking it very seriously, and

873
01:20:26.840 --> 01:20:35.520
even in a recent analysis had said
they were they weren't sure what the root

874
01:20:35.560 --> 01:20:40.279
of the phenomena is, and they
even went on to say they aren't ruling

875
01:20:40.319 --> 01:20:46.079
out the extraterrestrial hypothesis. Right.
The French are actually pretty open minded and

876
01:20:47.000 --> 01:20:51.800
it's uh in like you said,
they do take it seriously. And just

877
01:20:51.840 --> 01:20:58.079
to show how seriously, I give
an example in that chapter of a guy

878
01:20:58.399 --> 01:21:04.800
who plays a hope and the way
the French operate, The gen Darmes work

879
01:21:04.960 --> 01:21:13.039
with the National Space Agency, so
their initial investigator is their gendarmes who and

880
01:21:13.079 --> 01:21:15.600
the gendarmes for the people who don't
know, are more than just police.

881
01:21:15.640 --> 01:21:21.520
They're more equivalent to our FBI,
except they're in uniform. It's their national

882
01:21:21.560 --> 01:21:29.399
police force. So this guy pulls
a hoax and as soon as they figured

883
01:21:29.399 --> 01:21:32.920
it out, they arrest him and
haul him off. So I mean they

884
01:21:32.920 --> 01:21:39.319
do take it seriously. So you
don't have people playing hoax France, and

885
01:21:39.359 --> 01:21:45.800
you have people flying Chinese lanterns and
claiming their UFOs, and you know the

886
01:21:45.920 --> 01:21:49.279
last one, I'll mentioned real quick, Alejandro, which I really like is

887
01:21:49.319 --> 01:21:55.279
the case in Belgium, and we
talk about we also talk about Russia,

888
01:21:55.279 --> 01:22:01.199
Brazil and Belgium very briefly, but
Belgium I really like because of that triangle

889
01:22:01.279 --> 01:22:06.239
incident and you know that photo.
Whether that photo is real or not,

890
01:22:06.520 --> 01:22:11.199
I don't know, but that's not
to me. What's important about the case.

891
01:22:11.680 --> 01:22:16.359
What's really the more important part is
the number of police that saw this

892
01:22:16.560 --> 01:22:23.279
object and they've just tracked it.
Is it flew across at very slow speeds

893
01:22:23.319 --> 01:22:29.840
across their country. I mean,
I think they had over two and fifty

894
01:22:29.880 --> 01:22:33.760
witnesses, and of those two hundred
two and fifty witnesses, around sixteen to

895
01:22:33.880 --> 01:22:42.520
twenty were policemen who were in control
cards tracking this. It's I mean,

896
01:22:42.560 --> 01:22:45.279
it's like, well, how do
you explain that? Yeah, several sightings

897
01:22:45.279 --> 01:22:51.159
of this object from police and others. And that's why I'm really excited to

898
01:22:51.239 --> 01:22:56.000
have my upcoming conference. That General
de Brower, of course, you know,

899
01:22:56.079 --> 01:22:59.039
and I got to see him speak
in San Jose a few years ago,

900
01:22:59.600 --> 01:23:03.800
and his talk is wonderful because he
goes step by step through all of

901
01:23:03.840 --> 01:23:12.119
these sightings, jets being scrambled,
all of these different incidents and you get

902
01:23:12.159 --> 01:23:20.720
to see this incredible like Japon or
something. They took this serious investigative stance.

903
01:23:20.800 --> 01:23:24.239
I mean, they took it very
seriously and you get to see their

904
01:23:24.319 --> 01:23:29.479
investigation step by step and what had
happened, and it is extraordinary. Oh

905
01:23:29.520 --> 01:23:32.520
yeah, I mean, I mean, these policemen at one point they followed

906
01:23:32.560 --> 01:23:39.760
this craft to a lake where it
sits there for thirty minutes and it's only

907
01:23:39.880 --> 01:23:44.520
at about five hundred feet they estimated
one hundred foot wingspan, So it's not

908
01:23:44.600 --> 01:23:47.439
like you're seeing a light in the
sky. Right, So it's like what

909
01:23:48.239 --> 01:23:54.279
I mean, either they saw it
or there, or they've gone whack out

910
01:23:54.359 --> 01:23:58.439
one of the two, right,
you know, you can't say they misidentified

911
01:23:58.479 --> 01:24:02.880
something. Yeah, that's really impressive. I love that. So that's going

912
01:24:02.960 --> 01:24:06.359
to be very exciting to see him
talking and he'll be able to speak on

913
01:24:06.600 --> 01:24:12.560
the photo that you're talking about,
to give us an update on his feelings

914
01:24:12.640 --> 01:24:16.760
on the legitimacy of the photo.
But further, even if he feels it

915
01:24:16.880 --> 01:24:20.680
is hoaxed, like you said,
to go on to demonstrate the abundance of

916
01:24:20.720 --> 01:24:30.720
evidence in that wave of sightings.
So very exciting stuff. I'm really excited

917
01:24:30.760 --> 01:24:35.359
about the book getting back to the
US. So you've talked about how there

918
01:24:35.359 --> 01:24:43.760
were investigations. The United States has
taken this serious even after nineteen sixty nine,

919
01:24:44.199 --> 01:24:46.880
So what are your feelings for behind
the scenes. Of course, they

920
01:24:46.920 --> 01:24:53.279
have what they tell the public,
but behind the scenes you have people ordering

921
01:24:53.560 --> 01:24:57.720
pilots to go shoot them down,
and maybe some incidents, but at least

922
01:24:57.800 --> 01:25:02.600
to intercept objects in others. Uh, do you feel there is this grand

923
01:25:02.840 --> 01:25:09.239
conspiracy behind the scene or is it
kind of more informal and there's one off

924
01:25:10.079 --> 01:25:14.800
type of situations happening or are you
still just as as mystified as to what

925
01:25:14.880 --> 01:25:17.199
might be going on as you were
when you started this project. Well,

926
01:25:17.760 --> 01:25:23.640
you know, Alejandro, I don't
see things in black and white, so

927
01:25:24.000 --> 01:25:28.920
I always consider everything it's a possibility. It may be one percent likely,

928
01:25:29.000 --> 01:25:35.119
but everything's possibility. But to me, I don't think that there's an overriding

929
01:25:35.960 --> 01:25:41.720
conspiracy of any type. I really
don't. From when you read the history

930
01:25:41.760 --> 01:25:46.880
of it. There may be groups
you know here and there that had some

931
01:25:47.000 --> 01:25:51.800
information or we're collecting it, or
they tracked and followed the information, kind

932
01:25:51.800 --> 01:25:58.399
of like what John Alexander points out
in his book and so they may they

933
01:25:58.439 --> 01:26:05.000
may know some things, but I
don't think there's any overriding group that is

934
01:26:05.039 --> 01:26:10.000
a constant thread through history in this
group. You know, this group from

935
01:26:10.039 --> 01:26:15.279
nineteen forty to today has always had
the information in control of it. I

936
01:26:15.279 --> 01:26:24.640
think it's piecemeal. It's been in
different organizations. I honestly think that there's

937
01:26:24.680 --> 01:26:30.000
two basic driving forces. One is
that the military has no idea what the

938
01:26:30.000 --> 01:26:35.640
phenomenon is, and as a result, they don't want to deal with something

939
01:26:35.680 --> 01:26:41.840
they can't explain. And the second
thing is, and I don't know how

940
01:26:41.880 --> 01:26:51.279
this has happened, but it's almost
like there's this psychological thing where people don't

941
01:26:51.279 --> 01:26:56.000
even want to talk about it or
even consider it as a possibility. I

942
01:26:56.000 --> 01:27:00.520
mean even in the government, it's
like, don't talk to me about it,

943
01:27:00.600 --> 01:27:02.960
are you crazy? Well, what
are you talking about? Right?

944
01:27:03.039 --> 01:27:08.800
And we see that over and over
again where military witnesses say that they never

945
01:27:08.880 --> 01:27:13.359
reported these things officially because they didn't
because of exactly what you're talking about.

946
01:27:14.000 --> 01:27:17.520
Yeah, I'm just within the last
year, I was talking to a guy

947
01:27:17.520 --> 01:27:24.520
who'd come out of the military and
was flying one of these I can't remember

948
01:27:24.520 --> 01:27:28.640
the exact name. It's an Orion
type of craft that's used over the Gulf

949
01:27:28.680 --> 01:27:32.920
of Mexico to keep an eye on, you know, aliens coming into the

950
01:27:33.000 --> 01:27:38.319
United States or things going you know, or smugglers or drug runners, all

951
01:27:38.319 --> 01:27:43.439
that kind of thing. And he
had this guy, I won't go into

952
01:27:43.479 --> 01:27:46.640
him, but he had two experiences
and the crew that was with them where

953
01:27:46.680 --> 01:27:51.680
they picked these objects up with their
infrared cameras with their regular cameras. And

954
01:27:51.720 --> 01:27:55.880
so after he described all this to
me, I said, so when you

955
01:27:55.960 --> 01:27:59.680
got back, did you report it? And what did your you know,

956
01:28:00.319 --> 01:28:04.319
officers say? And he goes,
no, we didn't report it. I

957
01:28:04.359 --> 01:28:08.159
said, why wouldn't you report it? Well, because they would have figured

958
01:28:08.199 --> 01:28:12.039
were crazy, and so we didn't
report it. I mean, it's just

959
01:28:12.079 --> 01:28:15.520
like that's what it always is.
Yeah. I heard from some guy who

960
01:28:15.560 --> 01:28:18.720
claimed and he seemed to be a
very credible individual. He was retired,

961
01:28:19.800 --> 01:28:23.880
not for very long, I don't
think, in his early sixties, and

962
01:28:24.880 --> 01:28:30.000
he came to a conference out in
the middle of the San Luis Valley that

963
01:28:30.079 --> 01:28:33.600
I was at, and he told
me he took me aside, you know,

964
01:28:33.680 --> 01:28:38.079
one night, and we were sitting
in the campfire because this is outwear

965
01:28:38.279 --> 01:28:43.279
a conference which is kind of fun
You camped there too, and he said

966
01:28:43.279 --> 01:28:48.079
he used to work at nora At
and that whenever they saw something that was

967
01:28:48.520 --> 01:28:55.399
unexplainable they knew wasn't theirs. They
called it a section eight, and they

968
01:28:55.520 --> 01:28:58.279
didn't talk about it. It was
kind of this unwritten role. You don't

969
01:28:58.279 --> 01:29:02.920
talk about it. And that's hilarious
because, of course, if people remember

970
01:29:03.039 --> 01:29:05.760
and I don't know if this is
true, but it hasn't ring a truth

971
01:29:05.800 --> 01:29:10.279
partially because if people remember what a
section eight is, you know, this

972
01:29:10.439 --> 01:29:15.479
is what Corporal Clinger was trying to
get mashed by wearing women's clothes. You

973
01:29:15.479 --> 01:29:18.600
know, give me a section eight
the show he was crazy to get kicked

974
01:29:18.640 --> 01:29:24.199
out of the military. Were being
crazy, and that's what they call the

975
01:29:24.239 --> 01:29:29.960
section eight. So kind of funny. It's you remember Hogan's Did you ever

976
01:29:30.000 --> 01:29:35.520
see Hogan's heroes? Huh? Remember
h Sergeant Schultz whenever he would, you

977
01:29:35.560 --> 01:29:40.399
know, whenever something was going on
here go, I see nothing, I

978
01:29:40.680 --> 01:29:45.840
know nothing, I hear nothing.
Right, it's that same thing. It's

979
01:29:45.000 --> 01:29:49.920
like there, you would imagine there's
also a strain kind of like the strain

980
01:29:49.960 --> 01:29:58.640
who started mof on engineers who and
maybe that's the inspiration behind some of these

981
01:29:59.000 --> 01:30:01.920
guys who were them to be shot
down, who are so interested in the

982
01:30:01.960 --> 01:30:09.239
technology that they want to get their
hands on it. It's possible, but

983
01:30:09.760 --> 01:30:13.000
you know, my gut not to
say that they have been able to right.

984
01:30:13.600 --> 01:30:15.920
I think even if they had their
hands on it, they'd have no

985
01:30:15.000 --> 01:30:17.720
idea what they had. Yeah,
they wouldn't know what to do with it,

986
01:30:17.800 --> 01:30:25.000
but probably about as likely as Columbus
could figure out what a silicon chip

987
01:30:25.079 --> 01:30:30.960
does. I love your example of
that too, because we were talking about

988
01:30:30.960 --> 01:30:34.880
this the other day, and I'll
let you explain it. And one of

989
01:30:34.920 --> 01:30:41.479
the first difficulties they would have with
a silicon chip back then, Oh yeah,

990
01:30:41.479 --> 01:30:44.119
I was a sudden You don't even
have to go back to Columbus's day.

991
01:30:44.159 --> 01:30:46.000
You could just go back one hundred
and fifty years to like the year

992
01:30:46.039 --> 01:30:51.600
eighteen fifty, and you could give
them a silicon chip and you know,

993
01:30:51.640 --> 01:30:56.079
they could see all the Yeah,
it looks like this is probably a luminum

994
01:30:56.119 --> 01:30:58.960
on the top it. We're not
sure. It looks like solid alumina.

995
01:30:59.039 --> 01:31:02.880
Well, tron microscopes didn't sense,
so there's no way they could even see

996
01:31:02.920 --> 01:31:09.680
the definition of the aluminum lines that
exist on a silicon chip. You know,

997
01:31:09.920 --> 01:31:13.560
let alone figure out what this thing
did, right, and then you

998
01:31:13.600 --> 01:31:16.199
know it's as soon as they probably
put a drop of acid on it.

999
01:31:16.239 --> 01:31:19.600
See if it's really illuminum, of
course then they would have destroyed it.

1000
01:31:19.720 --> 01:31:26.760
Hip. So you know, the
idea that we could I mean one hundred

1001
01:31:26.800 --> 01:31:32.359
and fifty years ago are we couldn't
reverse engineer the technology that we have today.

1002
01:31:32.720 --> 01:31:38.800
There's no way we're going to reverse
engineer technology if someone a thousand years

1003
01:31:38.840 --> 01:31:43.920
more advanced than us, assuming that's
what it is, who knows, right?

1004
01:31:44.880 --> 01:31:46.800
All right, Well, thank you
so much. I want to talk

1005
01:31:46.880 --> 01:31:51.039
about because we're pretty much out of
time. When is the book available?

1006
01:31:53.159 --> 01:31:58.840
It should It should be available within
the next couple of weeks. Okay,

1007
01:31:59.159 --> 01:32:05.159
keep checking on Amazon and Barnes is
double and it should be available sin move

1008
01:32:05.239 --> 01:32:15.720
On And it's being published by Anomalist
Books, not like Anomalists ANAMA list so

1009
01:32:15.479 --> 01:32:23.600
ends an L I S T Books
dot com. Patrick Weege is our publisher,

1010
01:32:24.319 --> 01:32:26.439
so you can find it there,
and of course there'll be links at

1011
01:32:26.520 --> 01:32:32.479
MoveOn dot com and I'll be certainly
spreading the word also. Well, thanks

1012
01:32:32.520 --> 01:32:36.960
for talking to me this evening,
Alejandro. As usual, it's great talking

1013
01:32:38.000 --> 01:32:41.439
to you again. Look forward to
singing you again for long. Thanks.

1014
01:32:41.479 --> 01:32:44.880
It was great to have you on
again. I'm so excited about this work.

1015
01:32:44.960 --> 01:32:48.159
Congratulations to you and all the authors
on finishing this book. I think

1016
01:32:48.159 --> 01:32:55.600
it's going to be a really important
piece of work. All right. Thank

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01:32:55.680 --> 01:33:00.399
you to Robert so much for being
on the show. And this. If

1018
01:33:00.439 --> 01:33:05.159
you go to that Anomalous books dot
com and you go to the coming soon

1019
01:33:06.119 --> 01:33:13.199
UFOs and Government a Historical Inquiry,
and you will see all the authors Michael

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01:33:13.239 --> 01:33:18.039
Swartz, Robert Powell, Class,
Vaughan Vicente, Juan Ballister, almost Bill

1021
01:33:18.159 --> 01:33:26.000
Tulker, Barry Greenwood, Richard Thames, John Aldrich and Steve Purcell. So

1022
01:33:26.039 --> 01:33:30.359
you may recognize some of those names. Thank you so much for joining me

1023
01:33:30.479 --> 01:33:35.840
once again. We will have some
more excitement next week, so be sure

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01:33:35.920 --> 01:33:41.880
to be there. Talk to you
next week people. Until then, enjoy

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01:33:42.239 --> 01:34:30.760
the music by two Earth Minutes.