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Welcome to the nonprofits. In our
first installment of churches behaving badly this week

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comes from the good old boys down
in the Southern Baptist Convention, Helen Green

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tell us about what kind of hornets
nests they've been stirring up down there.

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So hey, hey, Southern Baptist
Convention, sexism is showing. Apparently reading

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the Hamming Stale as a guidebook,
the SBC has declared that no women cannot

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hold a pastor position in their congregations, and if a church dares to allow

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women to preach, well, dear
viewer, the SBC will remove such church

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from its coalition of worship centers.
Now, as many are seleecting this may

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be a controversial, controversial distraction to
shift the public's focus away from allegations of

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child sexual abuse. The SBC was
surely like it if we forgot all about

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that. Sorry, not sorry.
When any incision just keeps doing things that

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draw the ire of believers and atheists
alike, scrutiny will follow. This story

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comes from AP News like You're Smith, that was published on June sixth,

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twenty twenty four. All right,
Helen, it sounds like they got quite

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a bit going on down there.
What are some of the immediate effects of

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this move on the part of the
SBC. So with the SBC, what's

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going on with the SBC is that
they basically voted that you can still if

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you want to be part of the
SBC, the Southern Baptist Commitvention and be

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under the Embrolo where you get money
and funding and support, you can allow

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woman preachers to be part of your
congregation, even if there and there's been

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like there's forty seven thousand churches that
are under the SBC, and there's quite

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a bit of those that have had
women women pastors and positions of leadership.

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But now they're saying, like,
okay, you can if you want to

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keep your woman pastors, you know, longer get the funding. You don't

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get any more money, you don't
get that support. So they're basically putting

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the church those churches and kind of
a stranglehold because basically they're saying, you

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can continue if you want to continue
with your you know, women having a

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leader leadership as part of your congregation, that's fine, but you're not going

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to get any more support from the
SBC. So whereas oh, go ahead,

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So I'm just going to say,
so they're saying, that's fine,

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We're just not going to help you. We're just not going to support you.

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It's like you're on your own if
you want to do that kind of

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a thing, right. And and
the problem is is that because a lot

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of even people within the in these
Baptist churches there, they are not agreeing

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with this very conservative sort of reading
of scripture and saying that, you know,

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this has to be a thing.
And and that's causing a lot of

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issues as far as far as,
like you for the churches kind of figuring

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out what they're going to do because
ethically, they're kind of put between a

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rock and a hard place. Do
we keep our woman pastors who may have

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been serving for years and get rid
of their positions, you know, put

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them maybe in more of an administrative
role, or be do we keep them

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as pastors and lose all the funding
support of the SBC. And that's that's

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you know, we taught We talked
a little bit about this on a previous

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episode about you know, this coming
forward because there's been a lot of problems

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with the Southern Baptist Convention the past
couple of years, and there's been a

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lot of controversy, which we'll touch
on more in a little bit. But

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as I was saying, like,
it could be that there's some more troubling

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things going on, and they're trying
to deflect this because they know that feminist

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talking points tend to, you know, get people's emotions when you know they

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have bigger problems going on. Aaron, does this type of move say anything

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about the theology involved here? I
mean, do they have proper biblical standing

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or is there a proper biblical standing
with this? Well, that's the thing.

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Controversies like this, to me just
show that the real power behind the

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throne here isn't God, It's the
people that are involved. Because you know,

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the Abraham of God is supposedly that, you know, the try Omni

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God, Omni powerful, omnib benevolent, Omni whatever the last one is I

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can't remember, but supposedly for an
omni powerful God, his message is really

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really hard to get across in a
straightforward way. Why is there any controversy

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in the church over what the right
thing to do is? Why is there

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any controversy over what the proper interpretation
of scripture should be? When your God

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is all powerful, shouldn't God be
powerful enough to get the right message across

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you know, why are there different
interpretations? In the article, it says

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that critics say the Convention shouldn't enshrine
a constitutional rule based on one interpretation of

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its non binding doctrinal statement. Why
are there any interpretations? You know?

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Why isn't God clarifying how things are
supposed to be? Do you think it

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should be really obvious? Right?
You would think that God would be able

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to clear it all up right and
make it not confusing. You know,

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why are there any non binding doctrinal
statements. Isn't God power enough to write

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his word on people's hearts consistently so
there's no controversies? And the article also

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says, quote the controversy complicates the
already choppy efforts by the mostly white denomination

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to diversify and overcome its legacy of
slavery and segregation. And this is a

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big problem in Christianity because if you
have a secular worldview, you can look

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back and think, well, everything
sucks because people sucked, and we're growing

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and developing as a species to become
better over time. Right. But if

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you if you take a logical view, a biblical view, when you look

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back and see crappy things that Christians
used to do, Well, that's because

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God kind of maybe had something to
do with it, And so then you

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have to think, well, God
might have been kind of crappy. Well,

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instead of admitting that God is kind
of crappy, there's all sorts of

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apologetics and explaining away, and there's
all that kind of intellectual nonsense that goes

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on. I think your use of
the word apologetics there was very generous,

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I should say, I think it
would be I think mental gymnastics is really

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part of what we're talking about there. But I want to jump over to

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Jason for a second. Jason,
do you think that the Southern Baptist Conference

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is mainly concerned about aligning their policies
with the Bible or do you think there's

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some sort of ulterior motives going on
here? You know? Man, I

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mean, I'm pretty sure we know
where a lot of those people align politically.

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And I'm not endorsing or dissuading anybody, but a lot of times people

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who are more conservative are really good
at playing the long game. Okay,

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So what's interesting to me is that
there's a people of color are the people

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who are most impacted by this decision, and it's a decision made by predominantly

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white, straight, sis conservative men. In my opinion, what they're doing,

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they're kind of killing two birds with
one stone. Excuse me, I

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don't know. The consertives tend to
have forethought in their pocket. They know

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how to play the long game.
They're good at making decisions a stretch kind

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of far beyond what, you know, the supposed reason that they're giving or

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the alleged target of their witch hunts. The lives of people of color intersect

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with many other groups and communities that
fundamentalist conservatives are attempting to further marginalize.

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Uh. You know, we can
see queer people, people at and or

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below the poverty line, immigrants slash
refugees, the working class in general,

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certain people with certain health care concerns
and risks. So what we're seeing here

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is the more diverse, the more
diversity that's removed from the stage, from

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the polepit, you know, from
like public eye, especially here in the

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States. Being being platformed is a
big deal. You know, people people

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are taught to like automatically give that
person who's being platformed, like they endow

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them with some sense of authority,
so they understand that. So the less

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people you have representing these certain groups, the less overall pushback you're going to

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get from you know, the general
public, and these power hungry hate bongers

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are gonna you know, slide into
these positions a little easier. I mean,

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there's there's a good band that kind
of highlighted this. This said,

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you know, you don't got to
burn the books, you know, you

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just have to remove them, you
know, And I think that's kind of

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what's going on here is we're calling
this a woman thing, which is disgusting

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in general, but predominantly what we're
seeing is that this is affecting predominantly black

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churches. So that's you know,
Helen, Helen, what do you think

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about Jason Jason's take on there?
Do you think that this is strictly a

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plan to minimize diversity and encourage homogeneity
there? Oh? Yeah, because there

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there's progressive after churches that are under
the coalition, under the SBC, and

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they are going to be affected by
this. So and it's definitely going to

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affect also those because a predominantly a
good portion of and I'm not going to

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coote percentages because I'm going to be
honest and look them up. But I

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know, but I know that some
of these churches have people of color and

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that are in leadership positions and are
women, and they are going to be

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affected and they're going to lose funding. And imagine if you are a church,

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a service servicing a neighborhood that is
predominantly people of color, color living

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out the poverty line, and you
provide services to your community, you're providing

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services of like daycare, of food, you know, getting people connected so

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you know they get job training and
how to write a resume and get the

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education, because those are things that
you know, some of these churches provide.

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If you don't have that money coming
in from the SVC anymore, a

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lot of programs are going to start
getting you know, dried up, or

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they're going to have to, you
know, reallocate where that money is going

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to go, or do you get
rid of your women again in positions of

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authority in the church, give it
to the men and push them aside and

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say you know what you know because
of you know Biblical doctrine. You know

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you are you are lesser than in
the church and to be there that is

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in the Bible you know, when
we are not supposed to speak in the

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church and definitely not supposed to have
positions of leadership. They're not supposed to

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be able to preach the Gospel to, you know, the wider congregation.

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So you know, at least I
can say, like, you know,

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the SPC is trying to be consistent
because this was back in they made a

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statement back in nineteen eighty four about
this, you know. But I think,

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you know, because of political pressure
and not being so much of a

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political issue, they just kind of
let us slide where women were allowed into

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positions of power and leadership within the
church. But I think now because we're

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seeing this backlash of the conservative right, the Christian right, who want to

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go back to this homogeneous view of
like goals, you know, for men

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and women in society. But again, I think it's because there's some federal

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investigations of child sexual abuse going on
at the Yeah, let's hold on,

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let's hold off on that for a
second. There. I'll come back to

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that because it's a problem. Yeah, we'll come back to it for a

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second. I want to jump back
to Aaron real quick here. Aaron,

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so obviously, one effect here is
going to be that there's going to be

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more there's going to be fewer churches
that are led by women or that have

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women in leadership positions. Do you
think that that's going to catch I mean,

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it's hard to a man in today's
world that this might be something that

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that catches on. But clearly there's
something motivating this this chain. You know,

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we've we've proposed a couple of possibilities
here. Uh, do you think

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that this is going to catch on? And when? What kind of futures

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is going to hold for us?
Well, overall, the numbers are pretty

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clear across the country that the United
States has become is becoming a more secular

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country. There are more atheists than
there ever have been, fewer Christians.

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It's becoming more more a little more
secular, a little less religious. And

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so but that begs the question,
how come the religious? How can we?

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How come they they have an oversized, overweight over voice out in the

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world right now, right And I
think part of it is part of me

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wonders and this isn't mine. I
think I've heard people say this before,

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is that maybe Christianity is moving more
and more right because they're losing they're getting

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their shrinking, and what's left is
a more concentrated Christian that's more fundamentalist,

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that's more right, that's harder to
convince uh that you know, maybe Christianity

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isn't true. The people that maybe
are convinceable that are slowly leaving, and

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what's left are people that are more
dogmatic, more fundamental. But I do

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think that eventually this decision, if
it does go through, it will eventually

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be reversed because if Christianity, if
churches want to survive, they're going to

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need money, and to get money, they need butts in seats, and

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they need the butts in those seats
to be giving, to be donating money.

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And so if the trend continues and
if your Christians are going to church,

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and if you're Christians are going to
give money, eventually that money that's

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going to talk. And these churches
they're going to have to get up and

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get with the times to get more
people in the seats. So you think

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that congregations are going to be putting
the same pressure on the SBC as the

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SBC is putting on these churches.
They're just saying, Hey, if you

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want the dollars, you're going to
have to get in line, right.

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I don't think Congress can put pressure
on higher ups. I think Christianity is

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very much a top down religion.
It's very authoritarian, and so there's they're

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taught, audiences are taught, congregations
are taught not to talk up, but

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to look in. They can apply
pressure with their attendance, though, like

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you were saying, if they don't
get the butts in the seats, they're

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not going to have the dollars and
they're going to lose all the influence.

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Yes, yes, if the butts, If there are no more butts in

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seats, that's the only way that
they can talk is either is to stop

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giving money, stop attending, or
some combination of both. Yeah. So

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Helen, coming back to you now, So the story meant and the story

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mentioned it in this kind of in
the weirdest way. The story mentioned that

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critics of the amendment quote, wonder
if the SBC has better things to do,

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And then they mentioned these accusations of
sexual abuse in the churches. Can

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you expand on that a little bit? Do you think this is some sort

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of deflection or some sort of diversion. I mean, okay, like this

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is something they have been discussing for
a while like this was already and you

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know, they already made a statement
back and you know, forty years ago

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about women having you know, leader
ship positions within the Baptist churches. So

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this isn't like mean to them,
But I do find the timing, you

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know, of becoming an issue interesting
right in, I know, weird because

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for those of you that actually really
read the article, there is a link

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up from the Associated Press on the
Southern Baptist Convention and the ongoing federal investigation

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of child abuse. So and I
kind of have a problem with this because

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I like with any sort of religious
institution that these these allegations prop up,

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they'll deflect, they won't take responsibility
for what their leaders have done, and

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they will find some other boogeyman for
people to focus their attention on. Right

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for this, for the SBC,
it is one women appreciating the gospel.

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I don't know why that's scary,
and I think it's because they're trying to

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deflect some of the heat that they're
getting from the Department of Justice, because

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they are looking at how not only
these allegations of sexual abuse, but then

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mishandling of it were just like you
know, we saw it with like Jehovah's

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Witnesses, where they weren't reporting these
allegations, they were keeping it in house.

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So those allegations are now coming to
light and all of the sudden to

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and I can't hope of wonder,
you know, with the with the consolidation

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of the money, like if this
is an excuse because these lawsuits are coming,

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okay, So they're trying to,
you know, make sure that they

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got plenty of money ready in case
any they have to make because like that's

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what it feels like, you know, if if I was you know,

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if I was you know, following
the money trail, which I am,

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and you know, because I want
to mention again, it's been forty years.

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This was not an issue for forty
years. Now that all these allegations

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there's a federal investigation of the you
know, of the back to churches of

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covering covering up child sexual abuse losses
are coming okay, and you get that

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that's the way, easy way to
get money. And you and the well

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used scripture as the reason I can't
argue with God. Definitely definitely thank you,

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thank you for that, Helen Jason. I want to come back to

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you, And I want to ask
this question to you, Jason, and

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also to the rest of the panel. You know, we've all tried having

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conversations with fundamentalists before, and we've
experienced that obstinate, closed mindedness that that

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they can show when we challenge their
funding documents. So how would you try

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to make the case for gender equality
to a person that has built their entire

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identity on a book that orders them
to do otherwise? Jason will go to

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you first, would how would you
make this case to somebody? What a

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fucking question? Man, God,
I don't know, I mean, quickly,

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the first thing that pops in mind
is, uh, you know,

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kind of question their trust in God? And uh, I don't know,

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because this is such a this is
a this is this real deep question.

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Because in the Bible it says that
anybody has been put in a place of

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authority has been put there by God. You know, Paul talks about it,

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Jesus talks about it. So and
anything God has put in place,

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let no man remove all all that. You know, we we know all

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the shit. So I would challenge
them and being like, you know,

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well, this person obviously was put
in a place of authority over you,

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you know, I mean, are
you saying you don't trust God, you

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don't trust God's plans? You're going
to listen to these guys, to these

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men, I mean, this person's
in the thought. I mean, I

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don't know, because to me,
the whole thing just seems divisive kind of

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with what Helen brought up and with
Aaron brought up, and then the shuffling

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around of of legal issues and all
this stuff. What it makes it,

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what it makes it seem like to
me is is this is a rally cry

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to see who's going to back these
guys up and who's not. Because you

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got to think about it. If
they're gonna be test well, well that's

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what it is. If they're gonna
if you're if they're gonna pull mutiny on

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their own pastor and sacrifice somebody that
they're close to, that family that they're

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around, for their for their convention, you know, more or less for

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their own theological political party. You
know, they're willing to sacrifice somebody,

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then that shows them loyalty. I
woantn't be surprised if this whole thing is

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a dog whistle kind of rally cry
covery type thing that they're doing in plain

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sight because they have to because people
are gonna get removed. But there's there's

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other motivations behind it. So I
would just have to point towards the truth.

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But I mean it's difficult. How
are you How are you going to

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argue truth with somebody who bows to
authority? You know, I don't know,

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that's hard. That's a big question
to ask at the very end,

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man, it's ridiculous. Come on
here, what are your thoughts? Would

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how would you make it that case? How would you if you were talking

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to somebody trying to convince them,
if they're holding their Bible in one hand

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and you want to tell them about
gender equality? What what kind of things

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would you say to them? Well? I would probably just go try to

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go straight to the words of Jesus. Uh. You know, most most

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Christians accept Jesus as you know,
the ultimate authority. And you know,

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Jesus said to love one another,
you know, treat other people how you

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would want to be treated. And
so I would just try to argue,

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Hey, you know, Jesus said
that everybody should be equal, that you

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should, you know, love and
serve everybody in your neighbor and you know,

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what would Jesus do Beyond that,
I'd have to start, you know,

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asking them questions about the nature of
their faith and where's the Bible come

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from? You know, who wrote
the books and the New Testament? Right,

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what is the origin of this book? And if if they can't,

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if that argument doesn't succeed, then
you might have to bring out some bigger,

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deep for questions to the question their
faith. But faith, Helen,

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let's let's give you the last word
here before we wrap things up here.

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What would you say to somebody?
What would you how would you encourage gender

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equality to somebody who's kind of dug
their feet into the ground and are you

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know, are bracing against any onslaught
coming at them. I would just remind

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the person that gender equality is always
going to be a fight. And the

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fact that at the SBC, the
only reason why when are allowed to have

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pastorial leadership is because some women probably
stood up and say, you know what,

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I want to be able to be
a part of this congregation. I

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want to be able to use my
face to voice to inspire people. That's

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how this happens. And though I
don't like religion, I do believe that

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every every person regardless of gender,
has the right to say what they want

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to say in the space that they
occupy. So if you're going to and

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if you go along, and I
do agree, it's going to be tough.

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But if you go along what the
SBC is saying, then basically you

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are saying that all the women and
all the people that fought for your ability

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and meant to that fought for your
ability to be able to preach and say

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what you want to say, all
that work that they did is completely mute

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now, right, So if you
want to see gender equality in the churches,

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then you have to stand on the
shoulders of the people that fought for

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you the ability to be able to
speak the way that you want to.

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That was nicely put hell, and
I think that's an excellent place for us

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to wrap up here. And so
thank you for joining me in that discussion,

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and thank all of you for watching