Welcome to the nonprofits. In our first installment of churches behaving badly this week
comes from the good old boys down in the Southern Baptist Convention, Helen Green
tell us about what kind of hornets nests they've been stirring up down there.
So hey, hey, Southern Baptist Convention, sexism is showing. Apparently reading
the Hamming Stale as a guidebook, the SBC has declared that no women cannot
hold a pastor position in their congregations, and if a church dares to allow
women to preach, well, dear viewer, the SBC will remove such church
from its coalition of worship centers. Now, as many are seleecting this may
be a controversial, controversial distraction to shift the public's focus away from allegations of
child sexual abuse. The SBC was surely like it if we forgot all about
that. Sorry, not sorry. When any incision just keeps doing things that
draw the ire of believers and atheists alike, scrutiny will follow. This story
comes from AP News like You're Smith, that was published on June sixth,
twenty twenty four. All right, Helen, it sounds like they got quite
a bit going on down there. What are some of the immediate effects of
this move on the part of the SBC. So with the SBC, what's
going on with the SBC is that they basically voted that you can still if
you want to be part of the SBC, the Southern Baptist Commitvention and be
under the Embrolo where you get money and funding and support, you can allow
woman preachers to be part of your congregation, even if there and there's been
like there's forty seven thousand churches that are under the SBC, and there's quite
a bit of those that have had women women pastors and positions of leadership.
But now they're saying, like, okay, you can if you want to
keep your woman pastors, you know, longer get the funding. You don't
get any more money, you don't get that support. So they're basically putting
the church those churches and kind of a stranglehold because basically they're saying, you
can continue if you want to continue with your you know, women having a
leader leadership as part of your congregation, that's fine, but you're not going
to get any more support from the SBC. So whereas oh, go ahead,
So I'm just going to say, so they're saying, that's fine,
We're just not going to help you. We're just not going to support you.
It's like you're on your own if you want to do that kind of
a thing, right. And and the problem is is that because a lot
of even people within the in these Baptist churches there, they are not agreeing
with this very conservative sort of reading of scripture and saying that, you know,
this has to be a thing. And and that's causing a lot of
issues as far as far as, like you for the churches kind of figuring
out what they're going to do because ethically, they're kind of put between a
rock and a hard place. Do we keep our woman pastors who may have
been serving for years and get rid of their positions, you know, put
them maybe in more of an administrative role, or be do we keep them
as pastors and lose all the funding support of the SBC. And that's that's
you know, we taught We talked a little bit about this on a previous
episode about you know, this coming forward because there's been a lot of problems
with the Southern Baptist Convention the past couple of years, and there's been a
lot of controversy, which we'll touch on more in a little bit. But
as I was saying, like, it could be that there's some more troubling
things going on, and they're trying to deflect this because they know that feminist
talking points tend to, you know, get people's emotions when you know they
have bigger problems going on. Aaron, does this type of move say anything
about the theology involved here? I mean, do they have proper biblical standing
or is there a proper biblical standing with this? Well, that's the thing.
Controversies like this, to me just show that the real power behind the
throne here isn't God, It's the people that are involved. Because you know,
the Abraham of God is supposedly that, you know, the try Omni
God, Omni powerful, omnib benevolent, Omni whatever the last one is I
can't remember, but supposedly for an omni powerful God, his message is really
really hard to get across in a straightforward way. Why is there any controversy
in the church over what the right thing to do is? Why is there
any controversy over what the proper interpretation of scripture should be? When your God
is all powerful, shouldn't God be powerful enough to get the right message across
you know, why are there different interpretations? In the article, it says
that critics say the Convention shouldn't enshrine a constitutional rule based on one interpretation of
its non binding doctrinal statement. Why are there any interpretations? You know?
Why isn't God clarifying how things are supposed to be? Do you think it
should be really obvious? Right? You would think that God would be able
to clear it all up right and make it not confusing. You know,
why are there any non binding doctrinal statements. Isn't God power enough to write
his word on people's hearts consistently so there's no controversies? And the article also
says, quote the controversy complicates the already choppy efforts by the mostly white denomination
to diversify and overcome its legacy of slavery and segregation. And this is a
big problem in Christianity because if you have a secular worldview, you can look
back and think, well, everything sucks because people sucked, and we're growing
and developing as a species to become better over time. Right. But if
you if you take a logical view, a biblical view, when you look
back and see crappy things that Christians used to do, Well, that's because
God kind of maybe had something to do with it, And so then you
have to think, well, God might have been kind of crappy. Well,
instead of admitting that God is kind of crappy, there's all sorts of
apologetics and explaining away, and there's all that kind of intellectual nonsense that goes
on. I think your use of the word apologetics there was very generous,
I should say, I think it would be I think mental gymnastics is really
part of what we're talking about there. But I want to jump over to
Jason for a second. Jason, do you think that the Southern Baptist Conference
is mainly concerned about aligning their policies with the Bible or do you think there's
some sort of ulterior motives going on here? You know? Man, I
mean, I'm pretty sure we know where a lot of those people align politically.
And I'm not endorsing or dissuading anybody, but a lot of times people
who are more conservative are really good at playing the long game. Okay,
So what's interesting to me is that there's a people of color are the people
who are most impacted by this decision, and it's a decision made by predominantly
white, straight, sis conservative men. In my opinion, what they're doing,
they're kind of killing two birds with one stone. Excuse me, I
don't know. The consertives tend to have forethought in their pocket. They know
how to play the long game. They're good at making decisions a stretch kind
of far beyond what, you know, the supposed reason that they're giving or
the alleged target of their witch hunts. The lives of people of color intersect
with many other groups and communities that fundamentalist conservatives are attempting to further marginalize.
Uh. You know, we can see queer people, people at and or
below the poverty line, immigrants slash refugees, the working class in general,
certain people with certain health care concerns and risks. So what we're seeing here
is the more diverse, the more diversity that's removed from the stage, from
the polepit, you know, from like public eye, especially here in the
States. Being being platformed is a big deal. You know, people people
are taught to like automatically give that person who's being platformed, like they endow
them with some sense of authority, so they understand that. So the less
people you have representing these certain groups, the less overall pushback you're going to
get from you know, the general public, and these power hungry hate bongers
are gonna you know, slide into these positions a little easier. I mean,
there's there's a good band that kind of highlighted this. This said,
you know, you don't got to burn the books, you know, you
just have to remove them, you know, And I think that's kind of
what's going on here is we're calling this a woman thing, which is disgusting
in general, but predominantly what we're seeing is that this is affecting predominantly black
churches. So that's you know, Helen, Helen, what do you think
about Jason Jason's take on there? Do you think that this is strictly a
plan to minimize diversity and encourage homogeneity there? Oh? Yeah, because there
there's progressive after churches that are under the coalition, under the SBC, and
they are going to be affected by this. So and it's definitely going to
affect also those because a predominantly a good portion of and I'm not going to
coote percentages because I'm going to be honest and look them up. But I
know, but I know that some of these churches have people of color and
that are in leadership positions and are women, and they are going to be
affected and they're going to lose funding. And imagine if you are a church,
a service servicing a neighborhood that is predominantly people of color, color living
out the poverty line, and you provide services to your community, you're providing
services of like daycare, of food, you know, getting people connected so
you know they get job training and how to write a resume and get the
education, because those are things that you know, some of these churches provide.
If you don't have that money coming in from the SVC anymore, a
lot of programs are going to start getting you know, dried up, or
they're going to have to, you know, reallocate where that money is going
to go, or do you get rid of your women again in positions of
authority in the church, give it to the men and push them aside and
say you know what you know because of you know Biblical doctrine. You know
you are you are lesser than in the church and to be there that is
in the Bible you know, when we are not supposed to speak in the
church and definitely not supposed to have positions of leadership. They're not supposed to
be able to preach the Gospel to, you know, the wider congregation.
So you know, at least I can say, like, you know,
the SPC is trying to be consistent because this was back in they made a
statement back in nineteen eighty four about this, you know. But I think,
you know, because of political pressure and not being so much of a
political issue, they just kind of let us slide where women were allowed into
positions of power and leadership within the church. But I think now because we're
seeing this backlash of the conservative right, the Christian right, who want to
go back to this homogeneous view of like goals, you know, for men
and women in society. But again, I think it's because there's some federal
investigations of child sexual abuse going on at the Yeah, let's hold on,
let's hold off on that for a second. There. I'll come back to
that because it's a problem. Yeah, we'll come back to it for a
second. I want to jump back to Aaron real quick here. Aaron,
so obviously, one effect here is going to be that there's going to be
more there's going to be fewer churches that are led by women or that have
women in leadership positions. Do you think that that's going to catch I mean,
it's hard to a man in today's world that this might be something that
that catches on. But clearly there's something motivating this this chain. You know,
we've we've proposed a couple of possibilities here. Uh, do you think
that this is going to catch on? And when? What kind of futures
is going to hold for us? Well, overall, the numbers are pretty
clear across the country that the United States has become is becoming a more secular
country. There are more atheists than there ever have been, fewer Christians.
It's becoming more more a little more secular, a little less religious. And
so but that begs the question, how come the religious? How can we?
How come they they have an oversized, overweight over voice out in the
world right now, right And I think part of it is part of me
wonders and this isn't mine. I think I've heard people say this before,
is that maybe Christianity is moving more and more right because they're losing they're getting
their shrinking, and what's left is a more concentrated Christian that's more fundamentalist,
that's more right, that's harder to convince uh that you know, maybe Christianity
isn't true. The people that maybe are convinceable that are slowly leaving, and
what's left are people that are more dogmatic, more fundamental. But I do
think that eventually this decision, if it does go through, it will eventually
be reversed because if Christianity, if churches want to survive, they're going to
need money, and to get money, they need butts in seats, and
they need the butts in those seats to be giving, to be donating money.
And so if the trend continues and if your Christians are going to church,
and if you're Christians are going to give money, eventually that money that's
going to talk. And these churches they're going to have to get up and
get with the times to get more people in the seats. So you think
that congregations are going to be putting the same pressure on the SBC as the
SBC is putting on these churches. They're just saying, Hey, if you
want the dollars, you're going to have to get in line, right.
I don't think Congress can put pressure on higher ups. I think Christianity is
very much a top down religion. It's very authoritarian, and so there's they're
taught, audiences are taught, congregations are taught not to talk up, but
to look in. They can apply pressure with their attendance, though, like
you were saying, if they don't get the butts in the seats, they're
not going to have the dollars and they're going to lose all the influence.
Yes, yes, if the butts, If there are no more butts in
seats, that's the only way that they can talk is either is to stop
giving money, stop attending, or some combination of both. Yeah. So
Helen, coming back to you now, So the story meant and the story
mentioned it in this kind of in the weirdest way. The story mentioned that
critics of the amendment quote, wonder if the SBC has better things to do,
And then they mentioned these accusations of sexual abuse in the churches. Can
you expand on that a little bit? Do you think this is some sort
of deflection or some sort of diversion. I mean, okay, like this
is something they have been discussing for a while like this was already and you
know, they already made a statement back and you know, forty years ago
about women having you know, leader ship positions within the Baptist churches. So
this isn't like mean to them, But I do find the timing, you
know, of becoming an issue interesting right in, I know, weird because
for those of you that actually really read the article, there is a link
up from the Associated Press on the Southern Baptist Convention and the ongoing federal investigation
of child abuse. So and I kind of have a problem with this because
I like with any sort of religious institution that these these allegations prop up,
they'll deflect, they won't take responsibility for what their leaders have done, and
they will find some other boogeyman for people to focus their attention on. Right
for this, for the SBC, it is one women appreciating the gospel.
I don't know why that's scary, and I think it's because they're trying to
deflect some of the heat that they're getting from the Department of Justice, because
they are looking at how not only these allegations of sexual abuse, but then
mishandling of it were just like you know, we saw it with like Jehovah's
Witnesses, where they weren't reporting these allegations, they were keeping it in house.
So those allegations are now coming to light and all of the sudden to
and I can't hope of wonder, you know, with the with the consolidation
of the money, like if this is an excuse because these lawsuits are coming,
okay, So they're trying to, you know, make sure that they
got plenty of money ready in case any they have to make because like that's
what it feels like, you know, if if I was you know,
if I was you know, following the money trail, which I am,
and you know, because I want to mention again, it's been forty years.
This was not an issue for forty years. Now that all these allegations
there's a federal investigation of the you know, of the back to churches of
covering covering up child sexual abuse losses are coming okay, and you get that
that's the way, easy way to get money. And you and the well
used scripture as the reason I can't argue with God. Definitely definitely thank you,
thank you for that, Helen Jason. I want to come back to
you, And I want to ask this question to you, Jason, and
also to the rest of the panel. You know, we've all tried having
conversations with fundamentalists before, and we've experienced that obstinate, closed mindedness that that
they can show when we challenge their funding documents. So how would you try
to make the case for gender equality to a person that has built their entire
identity on a book that orders them to do otherwise? Jason will go to
you first, would how would you make this case to somebody? What a
fucking question? Man, God, I don't know, I mean, quickly,
the first thing that pops in mind is, uh, you know,
kind of question their trust in God? And uh, I don't know,
because this is such a this is a this is this real deep question.
Because in the Bible it says that anybody has been put in a place of
authority has been put there by God. You know, Paul talks about it,
Jesus talks about it. So and anything God has put in place,
let no man remove all all that. You know, we we know all
the shit. So I would challenge them and being like, you know,
well, this person obviously was put in a place of authority over you,
you know, I mean, are you saying you don't trust God, you
don't trust God's plans? You're going to listen to these guys, to these
men, I mean, this person's in the thought. I mean, I
don't know, because to me, the whole thing just seems divisive kind of
with what Helen brought up and with Aaron brought up, and then the shuffling
around of of legal issues and all this stuff. What it makes it,
what it makes it seem like to me is is this is a rally cry
to see who's going to back these guys up and who's not. Because you
got to think about it. If they're gonna be test well, well that's
what it is. If they're gonna if you're if they're gonna pull mutiny on
their own pastor and sacrifice somebody that they're close to, that family that they're
around, for their for their convention, you know, more or less for
their own theological political party. You know, they're willing to sacrifice somebody,
then that shows them loyalty. I woantn't be surprised if this whole thing is
a dog whistle kind of rally cry covery type thing that they're doing in plain
sight because they have to because people are gonna get removed. But there's there's
other motivations behind it. So I would just have to point towards the truth.
But I mean it's difficult. How are you How are you going to
argue truth with somebody who bows to authority? You know, I don't know,
that's hard. That's a big question to ask at the very end,
man, it's ridiculous. Come on here, what are your thoughts? Would
how would you make it that case? How would you if you were talking
to somebody trying to convince them, if they're holding their Bible in one hand
and you want to tell them about gender equality? What what kind of things
would you say to them? Well? I would probably just go try to
go straight to the words of Jesus. Uh. You know, most most
Christians accept Jesus as you know, the ultimate authority. And you know,
Jesus said to love one another, you know, treat other people how you
would want to be treated. And so I would just try to argue,
Hey, you know, Jesus said that everybody should be equal, that you
should, you know, love and serve everybody in your neighbor and you know,
what would Jesus do Beyond that, I'd have to start, you know,
asking them questions about the nature of their faith and where's the Bible come
from? You know, who wrote the books and the New Testament? Right,
what is the origin of this book? And if if they can't,
if that argument doesn't succeed, then you might have to bring out some bigger,
deep for questions to the question their faith. But faith, Helen,
let's let's give you the last word here before we wrap things up here.
What would you say to somebody? What would you how would you encourage gender
equality to somebody who's kind of dug their feet into the ground and are you
know, are bracing against any onslaught coming at them. I would just remind
the person that gender equality is always going to be a fight. And the
fact that at the SBC, the only reason why when are allowed to have
pastorial leadership is because some women probably stood up and say, you know what,
I want to be able to be a part of this congregation. I
want to be able to use my face to voice to inspire people. That's
how this happens. And though I don't like religion, I do believe that
every every person regardless of gender, has the right to say what they want
to say in the space that they occupy. So if you're going to and
if you go along, and I do agree, it's going to be tough.
But if you go along what the SBC is saying, then basically you
are saying that all the women and all the people that fought for your ability
and meant to that fought for your ability to be able to preach and say
what you want to say, all that work that they did is completely mute
now, right, So if you want to see gender equality in the churches,
then you have to stand on the shoulders of the people that fought for
you the ability to be able to speak the way that you want to.
That was nicely put hell, and I think that's an excellent place for us
to wrap up here. And so thank you for joining me in that discussion,
and thank all of you for watching