WEBVTT

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Welcome to Talk Ethan. Despite not
being convinced of the existence of any God,

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we hold on to the hope that
somebody out there has the proof that

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we have been searching for. So
who knows, maybe they just might call

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into the show today. So put
on your Sunday best because the show is

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coming on right now. Hello,
Hello everybody, and welcome to Talk Heathen.

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I am your host today, objectively
Dan and I am live in the

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atheist community of Auston Studio with a
great live audience here. If we could

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get that audience gam on, Yeah, listen to that crowd. Shout outs

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to everybody that came in today.
I believe we have some special guests.

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The Secular Student Alliance from San Antonio
is visiting us along with a whole bunch

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of people. It is crowded in
there, right, big crowd. Yeah.

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And if you've noticed, we have
a new host joining me today,

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you may have heard his voice before. Actually, buddy, those of you

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who've been watching the show, you
guys know that we did some auditions a

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couple of months ago and it was
great and Jamie here was also one of

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our auditions. So Jamie aka the
Blind Limie is making his debut with the

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ACA here on Talkie than Jamie,
welcome to the show. Thank you.

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Well, there aren't really words to
say enough. Thank you for having me.

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Yeah. Yeah, And so if
you recognize this voice, Jamie,

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you've been a freaking caller for a
couple of our shows. And some people

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may have had an objection to that. Yeah, but about six months ago,

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actually it was me and Jamie Boone
hosting talk Ethan and you said you

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were in the Austin area and I
was like, why don't you just come

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down to the studio, and then
like thirty minutes later you did. You

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were here, And since then you've
been showing up kind of in the crowd

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and helping out in some different ways, and now you get to be a

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host today. So congratulations on that, Jamie. How do you feel.

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I'm actually really kind of grouvy with
you. Yeah. I thought i'd be

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more nervous. I thought i'd be
more jitter ray, but I'm kind of

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like, yeah, where in it
now? Yeah? Yeah, that's right.

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So why did you pick the name
blind Limie, Jamie? Because I

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think that's an interesting when I could
give you a actual reference, but it's

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not a lie. I am legally
blind. I can't see at all for

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the people actually watching at home.
If I need to read something, I

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have to bring it up to my
face to so about this level. Yeah,

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so it's great. I can't see
any of the funny looks people give

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me when I'm walking down the street, just like being myself. It's cool.

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But you could have been like the
blind prophet or something. Maybe lime

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is just because I'm extremely British.
Yeah, and me and Richard Gilliver and

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the Skeptic are going to have to
have a three way sort of battle royal.

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We do need a British It's like
a British bakeoff, but a British

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standoffs sort of like well, Last
Man Standing. It's kind of like a

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Mexican standoff, only way more awkward. Yeah yeah, a lot more tea

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involved than guns maybe, but yeah. Well, I'm so glad that you're

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here with the in folks. We
are here to talk to you. This

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is a live callin show, of
course, but we do have the audience

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to day, so we might take
some audience questions as well. So audience,

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if you do have questions for us, we might get to you in

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just a bit before we get started, though, I want to let you

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know. Talk to You Than is
a product of the Atheist Community of Austin,

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which is a five h one c
three nonprofit organization dedicated to the promotion

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of atheism, critical thinking, secular
humanism, and the separation of religion and

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government. To Talk Heathen is a
live calling show and we have open lines,

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so you should get your calls in
right now. The number is five

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to one two nine nine one nine
two four two, or you can call

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from your computer at tiny dot cc
slash call THH and we'd love to do

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that. And before we get to
the calls as well, we've been doing

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this thing in case you guys haven't
been watching in a while. We are

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taking answers from you guys from our
questions for the comments section the question of

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the week. We're calling a Talk
Heathen to me. So before we get

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started, we're going to give you
the answers for last week's question. Last

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week we ask you complete the sentence. I know we aren't intelligently designed because

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and now we're gonna show you our
top three answers. So number three from

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less than Lucid says we know the
human body isn't intelligently designed because humans are

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chalk full of anxiety. And that's
true. We're like anxious about a lot

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of stuff. Basically a clear plastic
bag full of vanilla putting in anxieties.

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Vanilla putting in anxiety. That that
yeah, that's a good way to sum

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it up. So yeah, that's
that's one reason that we can consider,

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but we also have two other ones. We got our number two answer from

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Craig Thompson, who says we are
not intelligently designed because we have to cut

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the tip of our pens off.
So you know, that's that's true.

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I'm get do we I mean,
I yes, I don't know. To

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be honest, it's been a while
since I do a lot of stuff in

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the computer. I don't really,
I don't really do that. So that's

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that's that's you know, I don't. I don't talk about pens anyway.

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That's a joke. But uh yeah, so that's that's another way to think

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about this. But our number one
answer comes from cen Al two says we

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know the human body is not intelligently
designed because hang on, I'll finish this

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post after I clean my glass.
So yeah, there is that. Yeah,

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I'm sure that does. I'm sure
that does. I'm like having contact

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issues right now too, so I
might join you in the in the blind

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department today, at least for one
of my eyes, because I also have

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very terrible vision, not quite as
bad as yours. But so some of

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the think about So, yeah,
obviously there's lots of reasons to talk about.

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You know, why intelligent design doesn't
really work for at least the human

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body. Yeah, the fact that
the thing that gives us life also kills

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us stop big incandescent baller nuclear fire. Yeah, there is that. There

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is that. But we would literally
be here all day if we would all

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the reasons why. So we're gonna
move on now. So thank you to

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everybody who gave your answers for last
week's question. And here is this week's

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question. If you haven't answered for
it, comment below. It is what

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is a little known reason God sends
people to hell? So go ahead and

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answer well in the comment section,
not the live chat comment section, and

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we will reveal the top three answers. But before we do that, what

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do you think is a lie?
No reason? I don't claim to be

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a gnostic in many ways, but
I know this one thing is a special

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place in hell for people who say
the words I could care less when they

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mean that they couldn't care less.
Yeah, you know that That is,

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you know, a grammatical trope that
I often fall into as well. But

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there aren't enough German suplexes in the
world for these people. Well, I

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mean, I don't I don't know. If you want to suplex me.

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If I do that today, you're
more than welcome to. But I'm not

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so far to r I'm a blida. Yeah, yeah, I get you.

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I don't know. When I'm thinking
of this, I'm thinking of people

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who like, uh, you know, don't wash out, or people who

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don't put recycling in the recycling and
then put it in the trash instead.

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And to be fair again, that's
something that sometimes as all, but it's

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like, oh, that's such a
little thing. I think, you know,

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if there's enough of people like you, then the whole system doesn't work.

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I don't know it doesn't work.
But um, that is going to

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be it for our Question of the
Week, our talk Heathen tob segment.

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So let's see what happens with those
answers. I'm looking forward to that.

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But now I think it's time that
we take some calls. You're ready to

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take your first call on a live
show, Jamie, I'm terrified beyond the

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capacity of rustall thought, let's get
it on, all right, that's a

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good that's a good way to start. So let's go here. We're going

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to talk to start with Janet.
Janet, who is calling in from Florida?

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Janet, what's going on? You're
a live on talk Ethan, Hi,

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thanks for taking my call. It's
my first time too. So I'm

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a big ball of anxiety, like
you guys said, Well, we are

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happy to assuade you of your anxiety
as much as possible. But there,

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we are alive, and there are
several hundreds of thousand people watching, So

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no pressure. No very nice here
though. Yeah, it's pretty nice.

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You don't have to see them.
That's the good thing, right, So

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anyway, what's going on, Janet? That's a good thing. Well,

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I was telling your call screener that
I'm a little bit different than probably good

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person that Christian that you typically get
calling, and that I don't. I'm

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a Christian who believes that we actually
don't have evidence. And I have been

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listening and to a lot of these
discussions with the atheists over the past months,

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and I have to tell you,
I've probably learned more from the atheists

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than I have from a lot of
Christians, which I know sounds really ironic,

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but um, they have you know, y'all have really forced me to

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examine my beliefs and to really look
into why I believe what I believe.

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You know, most Christians are just
like because the Bible said so sure,

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and that's what we've been that's what
we've been taught to say, basically,

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and that we really can't back up
our position. And so I love these

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opportunities because there's questions that I have, you know, personally, for me,

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I believe in Christianity because there has
not been something that has convinced me

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not too okay, yeah, if
that makes sense, sure, Okay,

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a lot of it is, so
well, go ahead, keep going ahead.

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Well, well, let's explore this
a bit because well, first of

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all, I should say I want
to I want to give you props Forum

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saying what you did, because I
am a former Christian myself, and I

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agree with you one hundred percent.
When I first really started looking into what

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atheists had to say about Christianity,
I was blown away. By some of

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the stuff there, Like I grew
up in my whole life in the church,

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and I was hearing some stuff for
the first time and wondered, why

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aren't these discussions happening? Because a
lot of these topics are hard, and

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a lot of them lead to uncomfortable
conclusions. And I actually came to a

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similar conclusion than you did, which
is that I don't think there's a lot

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of great evidence for God. In
fact, in the last days of my

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Christianity, I identified with the label
of Christian mystic, which sort of goes

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with this thought that there may not
be physical evidence, or there may not

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be historical evidence, but it's my
personal experiences that justify my belief in Christianity.

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Now, eventually I deconstructed some of
those beliefs too, and obviously I

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don't identify as a Christian anymore.
But I do think it's it's very noble

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of you to call us and talk
to us about it. That's a that's

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a very big deal, So props
to you for that. I do have

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to echo that sentiment. But yeah, introspection is hard, and that you

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having engaged in that already is fanta
wonderful. And I am so fascinated in

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what you said about you have seen
no evidence not to believe. Right,

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let's talk about that, and so
what does that mean exactly? Could you

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break that down for us? I'll
do my best. Yeah. There are

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so many people that I have listened
to on different um podcast lives and when

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they go into the science that I'm
really fascinated about the science of it.

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But I'm going to tell you I
am just I was a preschool director.

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Okay. So when you start talking
about the origin of the universe, okay,

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like I like to get to the
bottom of things. And it's so

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over my head that when I hear
some of the atheists disgust, you know,

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because they're very smart. I need
somebody that done it down for me.

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Okay. I guess it's the best
way, okay, because my brain

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goes to Okay, there has to
be a beginning of something, and with

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with you know, when you're a
Christian, there's a very clear or beginning.

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It's as this one one right,
and it's beginning. God made the

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heavens and the earth, and um. You know, my I have three

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grown daughters and they're all on their
own journey. And I have one daughter

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who's very interested in the science aspect
of it. She hasn't been able to

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dum it down enough for me either, But we have a lot of discussions

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about this. So I'm how do
you, how do you help me understand

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what an atheist position would be on
where everything started? Core? Sure,

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So I think I have a problem
that something started on its own with nothing

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without divine Yeah, that's the best
thing to do. No, that totally

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makes sense, And I think that's
a very intuitive sort of conclusion that a

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lot of people come to. It's
this kind of idea like, well,

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you know, everything comes from something
else, so the universe has to come

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from something right, and maybe that
thing is God right like that, that's

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a very intuitive argument to some people. And we are inquisitive creatures by night

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show. We want to know there's
there's But there's a couple of problems with

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that. So first of all,
you know, talking about cosmology, right,

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I'm not a physicist. I'm not
a cosmologist. Everything I understand is

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completely in layman's terms. I mean, like, I've read popular science books,

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right, that's my expertise in the
subject. So I can give you

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a very limited understanding of what most
common and by the way, atheists don't

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necessarily have to believe in like the
Big Bang theory for example, like you

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know that could all atheism really addresses
is whether or not a god exists or

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not. And in some cases an
atheism it doesn't even address that. It

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just means do you believe? Then
there is one which is different from claiming

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the existence of something. You know, the belief kind of adds a psychological

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element. But but but you know
that aside going back to this idea of

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the origins of things, right,
when we talk about matter changing from other

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states of matter, right, we
understand that as we understand our physical systems,

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energy and matter all still exist within
the same system. Right, matter

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doesn't actually get destroyed. There is
no energy. So some people will take

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that and they say, well,
it has to come from somewhere, And

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the thing is, we don't actually
know if it actually does. Now,

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there's a lot that we kind of
understand about the origins of the universe,

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but there's actually a lot that we
don't. The funny thing about the Big

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Bang is that the actual bang part
of it, like the very beginning,

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we really have no idea to even
measure or understand that beyond what's called the

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Plank time length, which is the
shortest amount of time we've been able to

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actually physically measure. We really don't
know anything. We can tell you about

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the expansion of the universe, but
we don't know its origins, so there

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is a big question mark there.
So as far as how did that happen?

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How did the universe come to be? To be completely honest with the

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Janet, I have no stinken idea, and people smarter than me, I

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think would agree with that. Now
that being said, does the Christian answer

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to this idea actually make any more
sense? And I would argue it does

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not. What does the Christian narratives
say? It says everything that we know

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of today started in seven days.
Does that match up with anything that we've

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come to understand in science. Not
really. We understand the Earth being several

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billion years old, the universe being
billions years longer than that might on the

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Genesis one one, yeah, yeah, you don't have to be very well

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learned in cosmology to know that that
light came before the Earth. Yeah,

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sure, it's a pretty well known
thing. Yeah, we're very sure of

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that. But the Bible says otherwise, and I'm like, well, you

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have a first herbal are chief,
so can you give me a better explanation?

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Sure, And like our understanding of
how stars are formed, how other

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planets are formed, I mean,
it's it's out of order with what that's

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talking about. Now, some Christians
will say, well, you know,

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Genesis one one doesn't talk about a
literal seven days, right, it's more

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of a metaphor for the description of
the origins of the universe. But even

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that really falls apart when you look
at it, even if you say it

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is a metaphor. It again it
gets some stuff out of order, right,

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Like, first of all, what
does it mean to have a day

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or even a conferiential that when like
the Earth isn't there or the Sun isn't

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there to go around it? Um, you know, and and and life

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on Earth as well obviously evolved from
millions of years, right, And the

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Bible doesn't give any a counter description
of that, so like it doesn't really

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match any scientific findings, you know. And one last thing I'd say,

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and I'd love to hear of what
you have the same, right turn,

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is as a skeptic, my atheism
comes from skepticism, like wanting to know

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what's true to the best of my
ability. Yeah, and a skeptic you

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00:15:20.759 --> 00:15:24.039
have to get real comfortable with three
words. I don't know exactly exactly,

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just to put a bow on this, right, is that we can't tell

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00:15:28.399 --> 00:15:31.039
you how the universe came to be, and there's a lot of Sparta people

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than us that also can't. But
that doesn't mean that we should come to

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the Christian conclusion, right that that's
really where we stand at. It doesn't

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make any more sense to me to
follow the Christian line of thinking than it

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does for any other world religion,
especially since, at least with what I

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00:15:46.039 --> 00:15:50.279
know about the universe, it comes
from people who have made observations, whereas

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a Bible story is exactly that,
it's just a Bible story, right.

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There's nothing that suggests that the writers
of Genesis had any particular knowledge or forethought

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about the universe's origins than I do. You know. So anyway, that's

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00:16:03.320 --> 00:16:07.519
our long answer to that. Um, so we'll love to hear your thoughts.

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00:16:07.519 --> 00:16:11.519
Well. Um, yeah, that's
that's super interesting and helpful. And

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I have learned so much, like
I said, just about the observable universe.

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And um, you know when you
said that Christians just kind of you

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know, I know that Christians some
of them just take a hard line and

259
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go, nope, it just happened
in seven days and the story. But

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00:16:26.000 --> 00:16:32.080
you're right, there's things we observe
that do not jibe with that necessarily.

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So we have to admit as Christians
that there's a huge area of science that

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we don't know about that you know, points to evolution and things like that.

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So, um, I'm kind of
in that middle ground, you know

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of yeah, don't stop questioning,
right, but don't feel that you have

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to force yourself and also don't lose
hope because just because we don't know now

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doesn't mean we won't ever know.
That's true, that's and that's true.

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Yeah, somebody brought it up the
other day when I was listening in on

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00:17:02.000 --> 00:17:03.480
something. They're like, you know, in one hundred years we've made Look

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00:17:03.480 --> 00:17:07.599
how much more we know now than
we knew one hundred years ago, just

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about the universe. I mean,
it's absolutely mind blowing, right, right.

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So I also think it's important to
point out to Janet, and sorry

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to erupt you on that is that
these observations that we made, the more

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we know about the universe, it
didn't come from studying the Bible more,

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you know, it came from doing
the hard work and writing papers and making

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observations and and you know, for
some people that's that's troublesome because it goes

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00:17:32.200 --> 00:17:34.640
against our preconceived narratives about what we
already believe. I know it was troublesome

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00:17:34.640 --> 00:17:38.480
for me to kind of deconstruct a
lot of that. But it has huge

278
00:17:38.519 --> 00:17:42.319
implications theologically, right, Like if
you are Jesus and you say, hey,

279
00:17:42.359 --> 00:17:45.480
I'm here to save you from your
sins because Adam messed up, Well,

280
00:17:45.640 --> 00:17:51.440
that implies that there's a literal atom
figure that existed maybe a thousand or

281
00:17:51.640 --> 00:17:53.640
a couple thousand years ago, and
and you know, how does that make

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00:17:53.680 --> 00:17:56.400
sense with everything else in this story? Right? So, like you know,

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00:17:56.599 --> 00:18:00.839
to me, the most likely explanation
is that it's exactly that these are

284
00:18:00.880 --> 00:18:04.920
stories, These are ideas. These
are popular ideas, sure that have given

285
00:18:04.920 --> 00:18:08.640
comfort to people and have given people
a sense of you know, purpose and

286
00:18:10.359 --> 00:18:12.240
a framework to work on. But
it's not one that I think I can

287
00:18:12.279 --> 00:18:18.359
adopt because it just contradicts against everything
else I know about the world. Right,

288
00:18:18.440 --> 00:18:21.839
So that's why I'm not a Christian. And then and I'm not saying

289
00:18:22.000 --> 00:18:25.000
you shouldn't be one either, you
know, I know you're on your journey.

290
00:18:25.000 --> 00:18:26.359
But if you want to know why
I'm not, that's why. And

291
00:18:26.720 --> 00:18:30.920
I think that's pretty convincing. At
least it's convincing for me. So you

292
00:18:30.960 --> 00:18:34.319
know, well, it's really lightening. I'm sorry, go ahead, Oh

293
00:18:34.359 --> 00:18:37.440
please continue. Oh, I just
think it's really enlightening. Like I said,

294
00:18:37.480 --> 00:18:44.880
I have learned so much from Babetist
community, quite honestly, and I

295
00:18:45.000 --> 00:18:48.720
really like caring, you know,
especially from people who were in Christianity,

296
00:18:48.759 --> 00:18:52.559
because I think they exposed a lot
of holes that we have a lot of

297
00:18:52.640 --> 00:18:56.200
gaps, a lot of weaknesses.
And you know, it's either are going

298
00:18:56.240 --> 00:18:59.960
to force you to really look into
what you believe and you may be convinced

299
00:19:00.279 --> 00:19:03.079
even more strongly than you believe what
you believe, or it's going to force

300
00:19:03.200 --> 00:19:08.000
you to be uncomfortable and addressing things
that are issues. And yeah, I

301
00:19:08.039 --> 00:19:12.640
am really comfortable addressing those things.
And I think anymore talking probably for me,

302
00:19:12.720 --> 00:19:15.759
I'm going to be out of my
debt. Well that is okay.

303
00:19:17.559 --> 00:19:22.559
We really appreciate we got other callers
and stuff. We do have some other

304
00:19:22.599 --> 00:19:25.920
callers, but Janet you know,
we love having conversations with folks like you

305
00:19:26.039 --> 00:19:29.680
because if we're honest, at least
in my opinion, if more Christians were

306
00:19:29.720 --> 00:19:33.799
like yourself, shows like this probably
wouldn't need to exist. Absolutely right.

307
00:19:33.440 --> 00:19:37.000
I'd like to thank you personally for
making my first goal ul kepn Yes,

308
00:19:37.440 --> 00:19:41.920
extremely joy Well, yeah, now, this is a great discussion. I

309
00:19:42.000 --> 00:19:45.519
really appreciate it, honestly, And
just you know, I'm just going to

310
00:19:45.640 --> 00:19:48.440
keep I'm just going to keep searching, yeah, looking, keep watching,

311
00:19:48.680 --> 00:19:52.480
keep keep you know, hearing what
we have to say. And we love

312
00:19:52.519 --> 00:19:56.240
to check in with you see how
you are on your journey in the future.

313
00:19:56.279 --> 00:19:57.039
But for now, I am going
to go ahead and let you go

314
00:19:57.079 --> 00:20:00.200
because we do have some other folks
that want to talk to us. But

315
00:20:00.319 --> 00:20:03.839
thank you, Janet for a great
conversation. Jabie, what a nice way

316
00:20:03.839 --> 00:20:06.279
to start at the show. I
am starting to suspect that you set that

317
00:20:06.319 --> 00:20:10.240
one up for him because that was
a nice nice nor talk to Janet before.

318
00:20:10.240 --> 00:20:11.640
As far as all right, but
here's the big secret. We're out

319
00:20:11.680 --> 00:20:15.400
of our depth two on a lot
of things. Sure, I mean,

320
00:20:15.400 --> 00:20:18.039
the problem with doing a show like
this, right is when you talk about

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00:20:18.119 --> 00:20:22.359
Christianity and what it actually addresses.
It's a lot of fields. Yeah,

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00:20:22.400 --> 00:20:26.400
you know, we're talking about biology, we're talking cosmology, we're talking history,

323
00:20:26.480 --> 00:20:30.279
I mean like pretty much everything.
Y's the nature of the nature of

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00:20:30.279 --> 00:20:33.279
reality, which right, right,
right, But but you brought up an

325
00:20:33.279 --> 00:20:36.519
excellent point, Jamie, which is
like, we have to be comfortable with

326
00:20:36.559 --> 00:20:38.960
this idea of I don't know.
And that's the thing Christianity, at least

327
00:20:40.000 --> 00:20:41.440
my version of it was something that
said, yes, we do know,

328
00:20:42.079 --> 00:20:45.319
and this is the truth, but
why how do we know that? Well

329
00:20:45.440 --> 00:20:48.920
that was kind of the problem,
you know. Um, well, great,

330
00:20:48.920 --> 00:20:52.079
so you're feeling you're feeling good.
Now you're feeling good, getting the

331
00:20:52.119 --> 00:20:55.240
show and brand new garden here.
All right. Well, I am glad

332
00:20:55.279 --> 00:20:57.319
you're here with this, Jamie,
because I am enjoying my time with you.

333
00:20:57.480 --> 00:21:02.440
But before we move on to more
callers, I have to tell you

334
00:21:02.440 --> 00:21:04.839
guys a couple of different ways you
can support the ACA. So, first

335
00:21:04.880 --> 00:21:08.119
of all, we do have merch
that you can check out. We've got

336
00:21:08.279 --> 00:21:11.559
T shirts, hoodies, mugs,
the whole nine yards, and of course

337
00:21:11.559 --> 00:21:17.400
we have our limited edition T shirts. This month's shirt is the official Taco

338
00:21:17.480 --> 00:21:19.880
Heathen Shirt, which is a fantastic
shirt. He should definitely check that out

339
00:21:19.880 --> 00:21:23.640
in Today's the last day to get
that shirt because we are doing one special

340
00:21:23.680 --> 00:21:26.640
shirt a month. So if you
like the Taco Heathen shirt, now's your

341
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chance. Go ahead and take advantage
of that. Please, if you're watching

342
00:21:30.440 --> 00:21:34.839
this on YouTube like subscribe, hit
the bell for notifications and comment below on

343
00:21:34.920 --> 00:21:38.960
your favorite callers, favorite hosts.
Give Jamie some love in the chat.

344
00:21:40.599 --> 00:21:42.079
You know, he can't see the
chat right now, but he'll check it

345
00:21:42.079 --> 00:21:45.599
out later, you know, and
see those comments. So thank you of

346
00:21:45.640 --> 00:21:49.720
course everybody who comments and gives us
that feedback. But another way you can

347
00:21:49.759 --> 00:21:53.519
support the channel as well is by
becoming a member. You can do that

348
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for as little as ninety nine cents
per month. All you have to do

349
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is hit that joint button below the
video, You get cussed chat emotes,

350
00:22:00.920 --> 00:22:03.640
and you helped perpetuate the mission of
Talk Heathen and the atheist community of Austin.

351
00:22:03.759 --> 00:22:07.119
So something that pretty much a lot
of people can do. Ninnine cents

352
00:22:07.240 --> 00:22:10.519
is not a lot, you know, I get it. The economy's not

353
00:22:10.559 --> 00:22:12.200
great, but I manage it.
Yeah, just about it. It's not

354
00:22:12.240 --> 00:22:15.000
a lot, But anyway, something
to think about. One last thing as

355
00:22:15.000 --> 00:22:18.160
well. We are reading super chants, So if you have a super chant

356
00:22:18.240 --> 00:22:22.279
with a question or a comment,
we would love to read as many as

357
00:22:22.319 --> 00:22:25.960
we can, so please send in
your super chats and they'll send it to

358
00:22:26.039 --> 00:22:29.319
us here and we'll get to them
as we as we go along here.

359
00:22:29.400 --> 00:22:33.920
So yeah, that's all the announcements
I've got right now, and we're gonna

360
00:22:33.920 --> 00:22:37.920
go ahead and move on to our
next caller. Let's see. Let's see,

361
00:22:37.440 --> 00:22:41.039
um, let's talk to Let's talk
to Lisa. Lisa, who's calling

362
00:22:41.079 --> 00:22:45.319
in from Canada? Oh, Canada, Lisa, you are live on Talk

363
00:22:45.400 --> 00:22:52.960
Heathen. What's going on him?
I'm an atheist first of all, but

364
00:22:52.119 --> 00:22:56.839
I have kind of a question,
um, just to I guess give some

365
00:22:56.960 --> 00:23:03.920
context. Um. My question is, well, why why does when something

366
00:23:03.319 --> 00:23:08.200
like kind of like unbelievable happen,
Like, why is it? Why is

367
00:23:08.200 --> 00:23:12.680
it sometimes tempting to think that there
was some sort of like I don't know,

368
00:23:12.880 --> 00:23:18.880
special involvement, something we don't like
I want to just like I was

369
00:23:19.160 --> 00:23:22.799
really, really sick a few months
ago. I was in the hospital for

370
00:23:22.920 --> 00:23:27.279
three weeks and I tried like everything, I tried everything to get better,

371
00:23:27.559 --> 00:23:33.759
and then I just tried this one
treatment, and I like it was like

372
00:23:33.759 --> 00:23:37.200
a new person the next day,
and I was like, there's really temptings.

373
00:23:37.400 --> 00:23:41.759
We're not really tempting. It was
a little tempting for me to kind

374
00:23:41.799 --> 00:23:45.839
of think like, oh, maybe
maybe there is something out there. I

375
00:23:45.880 --> 00:23:49.119
don't believe it, Yeah, Like
why why is it? Sometimes? Like,

376
00:23:49.599 --> 00:23:52.880
um, why does that? Why
does our mind like sometimes go there

377
00:23:53.039 --> 00:23:59.519
when something that we can't really explain
or understanding. Great question I want to

378
00:23:59.519 --> 00:24:00.720
address first. I mean, I
want to hear your thoughts. I mean,

379
00:24:00.720 --> 00:24:03.640
this is a great research question that
a lot of people have tried to

380
00:24:03.680 --> 00:24:07.440
answer. So, like a lot
of people make this argument, right that

381
00:24:07.480 --> 00:24:11.119
Look, if you look across cultures, there are lots of people that have

382
00:24:11.240 --> 00:24:14.880
religions or at least are superstitious in
one way or another. And some people

383
00:24:14.920 --> 00:24:18.799
say, well, that's points to
evidence that there must be something beyond us,

384
00:24:18.920 --> 00:24:22.240
right, something higher. I actually
think it points to that we are

385
00:24:22.279 --> 00:24:26.960
all evolved and have evolved similar mechanisms. Right. So, like sociologists and

386
00:24:26.160 --> 00:24:32.319
and folks who work in anthropology have
really kind of looked at this question,

387
00:24:32.400 --> 00:24:34.480
and there's a couple of different hypothesis. I don't know if there's like a

388
00:24:34.480 --> 00:24:38.240
single answer that is talked about in
the field. But you know, the

389
00:24:38.559 --> 00:24:44.440
simple answer is this, when you
are in the African savannah and you think

390
00:24:44.440 --> 00:24:48.680
that there is something moving in the
bushes, right, you want to assume

391
00:24:48.720 --> 00:24:52.759
that it's a predator in order for
you to make it safe for yourself rather

392
00:24:52.839 --> 00:24:56.680
than anything else, because having that
assumption kind of helps you survive, right

393
00:24:56.839 --> 00:25:00.240
if you know and you don't actually
know, oh what's there. It could

394
00:25:00.279 --> 00:25:03.119
be something that's safe, but it's
there to be safe than sorry in that

395
00:25:03.240 --> 00:25:07.720
sense. And so like that kind
of sense that we have is kind of

396
00:25:07.799 --> 00:25:11.920
like the progenitor of this idea of
higher beings. We seem to want to

397
00:25:11.960 --> 00:25:17.559
appeal to some of these figher forces
to protect ourselves in some ways. So

398
00:25:17.559 --> 00:25:22.240
it's almost like this this evolutionary we
are pattern matching machine, right exactly,

399
00:25:22.319 --> 00:25:25.960
that's a better way to put it. Yeah, which is why you get

400
00:25:26.079 --> 00:25:29.640
a phenomenal paradolia. I see I
see a face in the cloud, or

401
00:25:29.680 --> 00:25:32.640
I see Jesus in my toast or
something like that. Yeah, we are

402
00:25:33.000 --> 00:25:37.599
deeply fallible, flawed machines that are
that were brought up by the forces of

403
00:25:37.640 --> 00:25:42.799
evolution to essentially do the best we
can with what we have, and unfortunately,

404
00:25:42.839 --> 00:25:48.559
in the modern world, with our
higher thoughts and higher aspirations to knowledge,

405
00:25:48.200 --> 00:25:52.680
that can kind of can trick ourselves. Yeah, yeah, So I

406
00:25:52.720 --> 00:25:56.119
think I think it's a combination.
I think it's it's that sort of sense

407
00:25:56.279 --> 00:26:02.799
that we have of self preservation and
also just the hierarchies that we've developed through

408
00:26:02.880 --> 00:26:06.039
religious institutions, right, Like we
seem to have the sense that if we

409
00:26:06.079 --> 00:26:11.559
make certain kinds of appeals to the
church or to you know, the God

410
00:26:11.599 --> 00:26:14.359
of this religion, that it's going
to help us in some way. Right,

411
00:26:14.400 --> 00:26:18.799
I think it influenced that sort of
self preservation. And some of that

412
00:26:18.839 --> 00:26:21.599
has to be culturally influenced too,
right, because when I thought I was

413
00:26:21.640 --> 00:26:25.119
doing bad, I thought I would
pray to God. Right, Somebody who

414
00:26:25.359 --> 00:26:29.200
grew up as like an aborigine is
not going to have that sense, right,

415
00:26:29.319 --> 00:26:32.240
They don't care about the Christian God. If if probably right, They're

416
00:26:32.240 --> 00:26:36.680
probably they're going to care about whatever
other kinds of forces are culturally influenced there.

417
00:26:36.799 --> 00:26:38.559
So, and you know, and
correct me if I'm wrong, Lisa,

418
00:26:38.680 --> 00:26:41.240
But I'm hearing a little bit in
your voice, a little bit of

419
00:26:41.279 --> 00:26:48.680
hesitancy being susceptible to thoughts of superstition
doesn't make you a bad skeptic or a

420
00:26:48.680 --> 00:26:52.640
bad atheist or a bad person.
It's perfectly fine to have those thoughts as

421
00:26:52.680 --> 00:26:56.119
long as you can rationalize them away
and even still act on some of them.

422
00:26:56.200 --> 00:26:59.599
I won't let people roll my d
and d dice for me. There's

423
00:26:59.640 --> 00:27:02.440
no reason for me to not let
them, but I still don't. It's

424
00:27:02.440 --> 00:27:04.960
irrational. Yeah, it's irrational,
Thomas. Yeah, so there you go.

425
00:27:06.119 --> 00:27:07.599
That's that's I mean, our thoughts
on it. What do you think.

426
00:27:07.680 --> 00:27:11.279
I think I think that's pretty accurate. Like, um, like,

427
00:27:11.319 --> 00:27:15.440
it wasn't enough to like actually make
me start believing in God or anything like

428
00:27:15.480 --> 00:27:21.440
that. It was just kind of
like because like I almost died like so

429
00:27:21.640 --> 00:27:25.359
to experience that. It was like, I just I don't know. I

430
00:27:25.440 --> 00:27:29.039
also like, I just I don't
know part of the reason why I thought

431
00:27:29.039 --> 00:27:33.119
that because I was in the different
I was in a different mindframe. Maybe

432
00:27:33.200 --> 00:27:36.200
it's a stressful time to be that
sick, and I'm very glad that you

433
00:27:36.279 --> 00:27:38.119
got better. Hopefully you're on the
mend. Yeah, for sure, I

434
00:27:38.279 --> 00:27:41.079
think I think part of the reason
why, And it's like I hope you

435
00:27:41.119 --> 00:27:45.960
know, no judgment or anything.
But do think that I was sick with

436
00:27:45.279 --> 00:27:52.599
is like I was, I have
like a mental illness, and um,

437
00:27:52.599 --> 00:27:56.119
it was getting so bad that I
just didn't want to be here anymore.

438
00:27:56.599 --> 00:28:00.960
And yeah, and so like for
when you're in like that kind of dystopian

439
00:28:02.480 --> 00:28:07.759
world, like everything feels dystopian to
you, Like it's really it's easy to

440
00:28:07.799 --> 00:28:11.400
feel susceptible that on maybe there's something
out there that like, you know,

441
00:28:11.519 --> 00:28:15.440
cured this or whatever. Absolutely,
I mean, it wasn't enough. It

442
00:28:15.559 --> 00:28:18.799
wasn't enough for me to like,
actually, you know, believe that there's

443
00:28:18.880 --> 00:28:22.559
like I don't, like I grew
up in the Catholic Church. I don't

444
00:28:22.599 --> 00:28:26.640
believe in any of that stuff anymore. Yeah, but you don't, see,

445
00:28:26.680 --> 00:28:30.240
you don't. You don't have to
apologize for anything. I mean,

446
00:28:30.279 --> 00:28:33.680
like, look, if I got
you know, I don't want to put

447
00:28:33.720 --> 00:28:36.960
a put a curse on myself here
or anything. But if I got like

448
00:28:37.000 --> 00:28:40.599
cancer tomorrow for example, right,
and I found that like traditional methods of

449
00:28:40.640 --> 00:28:42.599
treatment work working, I might go
out there and look at some of the

450
00:28:42.640 --> 00:28:45.640
other stuff, you know what I
mean, Like, I think that's a

451
00:28:45.759 --> 00:28:48.559
very natural sense that people have.
Again, it's you. It's your self

452
00:28:48.599 --> 00:28:52.119
preservation, right, Like, if
you are in a desperate state of mind,

453
00:28:52.400 --> 00:28:55.599
Yeah, you want to look for
whatever's going to help you, even

454
00:28:55.640 --> 00:29:00.160
if that means a higher power that
you've previously been skeptical of. I don't

455
00:29:00.160 --> 00:29:03.240
think there's anything anything wrong with that. I think that's perfectly natural. I'm

456
00:29:03.279 --> 00:29:07.079
glad that you're finding the help now. At least it sounds like you're finding

457
00:29:07.079 --> 00:29:10.400
the help now and don't have to
rely on that because for some people that

458
00:29:10.559 --> 00:29:12.480
becomes their whole identity, right,
that becomes that. I mean, that's

459
00:29:12.519 --> 00:29:15.839
what convinces them for things. And
thank you for sharing that. Yeah,

460
00:29:17.000 --> 00:29:18.359
it can be tough to do that, and you didn't have to. We

461
00:29:18.400 --> 00:29:23.599
appreciate the clarification. Yeah, I
just want to see that anyone who's listening,

462
00:29:23.720 --> 00:29:29.680
if you're really struggling and you feel
like you're ready to just completely give

463
00:29:29.799 --> 00:29:33.640
up and not be there, like, please go get help for yourselves like

464
00:29:33.759 --> 00:29:37.759
that. We do have the science
to be able to help people. And

465
00:29:37.079 --> 00:29:41.920
I just want to relay that message
to anyone who's watching that Yeah, okay,

466
00:29:41.960 --> 00:29:44.799
to ask for helps when you need
it. That's a great message and

467
00:29:44.839 --> 00:29:48.960
I think that's a great way to
leave on this topic at least. Thank

468
00:29:48.000 --> 00:29:53.400
you so much for sharing that and
being so open about what you went through

469
00:29:53.519 --> 00:29:57.559
and that circumstance. And yeah,
absolutely like that. That totally makes sense,

470
00:29:59.279 --> 00:30:02.759
especially you know a couple of years
ago. If I found myself in

471
00:30:02.799 --> 00:30:06.880
that spot, I would definitely turn
to Christianity. Yeah, you know,

472
00:30:06.960 --> 00:30:11.400
I've got stories I could tell of
myself and family members that have gone to

473
00:30:11.839 --> 00:30:15.480
superstition because of desperation. Yeah.
And again, in the darkest times,

474
00:30:15.240 --> 00:30:19.559
it is easy to fall to it. And in my day job, I

475
00:30:19.599 --> 00:30:25.519
interact with people who are ill and
looking to get help, and a lot

476
00:30:25.559 --> 00:30:30.480
of them are seeking those alternative,
unproven things out of that survival instinct or

477
00:30:30.519 --> 00:30:34.039
care for their family like Judy family
saying we want my mom is sick can

478
00:30:34.039 --> 00:30:38.119
help them. Yeah, and these
are the issues that give should give us

479
00:30:38.160 --> 00:30:44.559
pause as folks who talk about this, because like to completely say, oh,

480
00:30:44.640 --> 00:30:47.960
everything you believe is bullshit and you
should switch to something else. I

481
00:30:47.960 --> 00:30:49.079
mean, like, yeah, you
could be right, but are you going

482
00:30:49.119 --> 00:30:52.359
to be convincing to somebody in that
moment, you know what I mean?

483
00:30:52.440 --> 00:30:56.200
Like, there is a delicate sort
of balance there. You have to really

484
00:30:56.920 --> 00:31:00.599
interweave in your social interactions for people. I don't know. I don't have

485
00:31:00.640 --> 00:31:03.759
a hard, good answer for every
single case. I think it has to

486
00:31:03.880 --> 00:31:07.200
be a case by case thing on
how you address that with friends and family.

487
00:31:07.799 --> 00:31:11.359
But it's certainly difficult. And on
the flip side of it, there

488
00:31:11.359 --> 00:31:17.119
are so many organizations religious and non
religious, and people who are absolutely willing

489
00:31:17.160 --> 00:31:19.519
to capitalize on that way. Yes, absolutely, and that is that is

490
00:31:19.640 --> 00:31:22.160
terrible. I will I will speak
out against that. Oh yeah, every

491
00:31:22.200 --> 00:31:27.799
day. So no no questions there. But before we move on real quickly,

492
00:31:27.799 --> 00:31:33.440
some more announcements here. There is
the latest episode of the flagship show

493
00:31:33.480 --> 00:31:37.519
of the ACA the nonprofits that's going
to be premiering right after the show live

494
00:31:37.640 --> 00:31:41.200
at three pm Central. You can
go to tanyat cc slash White n P

495
00:31:41.720 --> 00:31:47.119
or just check out you know this
stream here afterwards. I believe it's going

496
00:31:47.160 --> 00:31:48.920
to be playing there, but link
to that is in the description either way.

497
00:31:49.359 --> 00:31:53.839
And of course, the ACA wants
to know what's you do now excuse

498
00:31:53.920 --> 00:31:56.240
me, wants a you don know
what's going on in the community. I

499
00:31:56.240 --> 00:31:59.839
mean they want you to know,
but they want you to know what's going

500
00:31:59.880 --> 00:32:04.279
on on and for that there is
an updated website so head to www dot

501
00:32:04.359 --> 00:32:08.079
Atheist hyphen Community dot org and you
can learn about what the organization is up

502
00:32:08.079 --> 00:32:12.279
to and how you can get involved
and when we're doing stuff like today when

503
00:32:12.279 --> 00:32:15.000
we're in studios. So check out
check out the website. If you haven't

504
00:32:15.359 --> 00:32:19.640
m one other thing, we love
hearing from you. We like to know

505
00:32:19.640 --> 00:32:22.319
what you like, which you didn't
like, and most importantly, what you

506
00:32:22.319 --> 00:32:24.960
think we could do better. So
you can email the show it's TV at

507
00:32:25.039 --> 00:32:30.240
Atheist hyphen Community dot org and let
us know. We'd love to hear it

508
00:32:30.240 --> 00:32:35.240
and send your praises to Jamie today
for you know, being an awesome host.

509
00:32:35.279 --> 00:32:37.640
I do have a tiny bonepick with
the nonprofits in that. Oh yeah,

510
00:32:37.680 --> 00:32:43.720
I watched them and m I saw
lots of very very insightful, very

511
00:32:43.839 --> 00:32:46.720
entertaining chat with very intelligent people,
but didn't see any flags or ships.

512
00:32:47.039 --> 00:32:51.400
Why are you lying to me?
Damn? Well, listen, Jamie's coming

513
00:32:51.440 --> 00:32:55.079
in hot it's his first day and
he's talking shit about other shows on the

514
00:32:55.119 --> 00:32:59.720
network. So I heard you,
all of you go watch the nonprofits see

515
00:33:00.079 --> 00:33:04.599
just pay attentional Well, this is
Jamie's last day today, so good good

516
00:33:04.599 --> 00:33:10.039
to have you here, Bud.
But we're gonna have to escort. Yeah,

517
00:33:10.160 --> 00:33:14.119
no, no, definitely go check
out the nonprofits. Give it a

518
00:33:14.119 --> 00:33:16.480
shot if you have it already.
It's a it's a pretty cool show in

519
00:33:16.480 --> 00:33:20.839
my opinion. But we got some
other folks here who want to talk to

520
00:33:21.359 --> 00:33:24.759
us. I think this is an
interesting one. We have Arlando, who

521
00:33:24.839 --> 00:33:29.880
is calling in from the UK.
Orlando, you are live on Talk Heathen.

522
00:33:29.920 --> 00:33:31.319
What's up? Oh hi Dan and
lie Me? How's it going?

523
00:33:31.319 --> 00:33:35.480
All right? Well, bro hey, look at that. We look at

524
00:33:35.480 --> 00:33:37.960
that Lime to lie Me interaction.
That's that's great, great, glad we're

525
00:33:38.000 --> 00:33:42.319
here to start that dialogue. What's
going on? Arlando? Yeah, basically

526
00:33:42.400 --> 00:33:46.240
I'm here to address the very quickly
the higher intelligence question. Okay, And

527
00:33:47.000 --> 00:33:51.720
I think, yeah, there is
someone I can talk to that I need

528
00:33:51.759 --> 00:33:54.599
to be more intelligent. I don't
know if i'd say, you know,

529
00:33:54.960 --> 00:33:59.000
if higher is the right word.
But I suppose, you know, she

530
00:33:59.119 --> 00:34:04.519
would score high on on intelligence.
Maybe that's not to say that she would

531
00:34:04.559 --> 00:34:07.079
remain more intelligent than me forever.
You know, I could improve on my

532
00:34:07.159 --> 00:34:12.039
intelligence, but you know my wife, for example. Is that a good

533
00:34:12.079 --> 00:34:17.559
answer? An answer? And while
it's always a good idea to defer to

534
00:34:17.599 --> 00:34:22.119
people who you find whys um I
mean, I don't mean yeah, yeah,

535
00:34:22.119 --> 00:34:24.639
I'm not sure. Wait where are
we going with this? Exactly what's

536
00:34:24.639 --> 00:34:28.559
happening? I know, I know
it's tongue in cheek. Is tongue in

537
00:34:28.599 --> 00:34:32.440
cheek? Essentially, anyone that's more
intelligent than me at present would be higher

538
00:34:32.440 --> 00:34:38.360
in intelligence, higher intelligence. So
I'm talking to yeah, I meant you

539
00:34:38.400 --> 00:34:40.599
know, yeah, yeah, go
for it. No, that's that's a

540
00:34:40.679 --> 00:34:45.679
thing, right When people talk about
higher intelligence. Intelligence is such a broad

541
00:34:45.079 --> 00:34:49.800
word. It can really mean like
like I can play a chess spot right

542
00:34:49.800 --> 00:34:52.639
now that will absolutely kick my ass, but it doesn't know how to do

543
00:34:52.760 --> 00:34:53.840
the dishes, you know what I
mean? So like, what is it

544
00:34:53.920 --> 00:34:58.400
really that intelligent? Like I don't
know, Like like that's such a variable

545
00:34:58.599 --> 00:35:00.639
word. I feel like kind of
to segue from this question, well,

546
00:35:00.639 --> 00:35:05.320
the sort of obviously, the idea
of the higher intelligence question was about you

547
00:35:05.360 --> 00:35:08.639
know, higher powers and God,
right, we do defer to those with

548
00:35:08.800 --> 00:35:14.000
more knowledge than us as part of
our arguments for and against certain things.

549
00:35:14.079 --> 00:35:16.920
And one of the finances we know
obvious you know, argument from authority.

550
00:35:17.079 --> 00:35:22.400
Yeah, they're they're more important,
therefore they must know more and so just

551
00:35:22.440 --> 00:35:25.280
to kind of hijack the topic a
little bit, thanks for talking about people

552
00:35:25.360 --> 00:35:29.280
who you see as more intelligent.
Yeah, I don't think about the person,

553
00:35:29.360 --> 00:35:31.119
think about what they're saying. Sure, yeah, yeah, I mean

554
00:35:31.159 --> 00:35:34.840
that's something I think we try to
plash, right, Like, we definitely

555
00:35:34.880 --> 00:35:37.360
don't like arguments from authority. And
of course I've talked about arguments from scientists

556
00:35:37.400 --> 00:35:39.840
and stuff like, I've already brought
that. But the reason why I can

557
00:35:39.920 --> 00:35:44.480
cite what they've talked about is because
they've done the homework. Are a lot

558
00:35:44.519 --> 00:35:46.079
of this stuff, right, Like, there is a proved to be shown

559
00:35:46.079 --> 00:35:49.480
there, there's there's work to be
done. As far as I know,

560
00:35:49.639 --> 00:35:52.960
Jesus hasn't talked to me himself,
or nobody has shown me Jesus. Nobody

561
00:35:52.960 --> 00:35:57.440
has shown me any higher powers or
anything. So I can't really speak to

562
00:35:57.519 --> 00:36:00.559
that, you know, I can
speak to what anthropology have said, what

563
00:36:00.599 --> 00:36:04.000
biologists have said, what cosmologists have
said. So you know, that's that's

564
00:36:04.039 --> 00:36:07.599
what I want to stick to until
shown otherwise. Right, what do you

565
00:36:07.599 --> 00:36:09.480
think? Yeah, it sounds brilliant. I was going to say, Um,

566
00:36:09.920 --> 00:36:15.840
I don't really consider chat GPT four
to be intelligent. Oh no,

567
00:36:15.920 --> 00:36:20.679
I think it sounds it can sound
intelligent, but it's just an algorithm,

568
00:36:20.760 --> 00:36:23.559
right, it's not really People say
it's all efficial intelligence, but is it

569
00:36:23.599 --> 00:36:28.039
really intelligent? I mean, what's
your opinion? It's a language model,

570
00:36:28.440 --> 00:36:31.280
right, So as a language model, it's taking what other people have written,

571
00:36:31.320 --> 00:36:37.760
and it's going to be rewarded and
and subsequently punished based on what the

572
00:36:38.000 --> 00:36:40.679
people who have programmed it to say, right, So like like that's how

573
00:36:40.719 --> 00:36:44.559
they kind of I mean, if
you go to open AI's website, that's

574
00:36:44.599 --> 00:36:46.320
what they say. It's like,
hey, we assigned a point value to

575
00:36:46.440 --> 00:36:50.400
whatever answers they give, so it's
trying to strive to get more points.

576
00:36:50.440 --> 00:36:52.239
So, um, you know,
it's just it's just a model. Um,

577
00:36:52.320 --> 00:36:57.400
it doesn't actually have an insal technically
know anything. Yeah, it's kind

578
00:36:57.440 --> 00:37:01.119
of constructing things that we recognize as
ideas in our heads. And they call

579
00:37:01.159 --> 00:37:06.440
it generative, but it's more like
regenerative. It only can pull from the

580
00:37:06.559 --> 00:37:08.559
data it's been trained on, right
and again to sort of pull it back

581
00:37:08.559 --> 00:37:12.239
to a more superstitious and supernatural bent. Some people, so, well,

582
00:37:12.320 --> 00:37:15.480
what if you create an intelligence so
high out of technology will create our own

583
00:37:15.519 --> 00:37:19.280
gods and I'm like, I don't
know about that, Jeef. Yeah,

584
00:37:19.320 --> 00:37:22.760
I mean, well, it is
an interesting question to ask, like where

585
00:37:22.840 --> 00:37:27.239
is the limit between what's artificial and
what's us? You know, like obviously

586
00:37:27.280 --> 00:37:30.159
we're not there yet, but like
that is going to be a question.

587
00:37:30.360 --> 00:37:34.239
Like I totally believe as long as
human civilization continues to be a thing we

588
00:37:34.280 --> 00:37:37.760
are going to have to address.
But we count as sentient versus SI.

589
00:37:38.320 --> 00:37:42.760
Yeah, because already there are people
who are like, no, chap GPT

590
00:37:43.079 --> 00:37:45.000
is like a live like is a
thing. No, Seriously, there's people

591
00:37:45.000 --> 00:37:49.719
that do say that it's going to
get worse, you know what I mean,

592
00:37:49.800 --> 00:37:52.760
like that number of people is going
to go up. So um,

593
00:37:52.800 --> 00:37:55.039
anyway, something to think about there. So that's that's my take on that,

594
00:37:55.199 --> 00:37:58.119
Orlando, What do you think?
Yeah, No, I think that's

595
00:37:58.239 --> 00:38:00.920
right. And I don't think even
think you can use it for research really

596
00:38:00.960 --> 00:38:07.559
because although it sounds like a very
intelligent agent and it might give the illusion

597
00:38:07.599 --> 00:38:15.079
that's conscious for anyone who doesn't know. Yeah, still, it's still it

598
00:38:15.159 --> 00:38:19.599
can't be relied upon, you know, you can't ask specific questions about people's

599
00:38:19.639 --> 00:38:22.119
lives. It might get things wrong
with might Yeah. I tried looking I

600
00:38:22.159 --> 00:38:25.280
shouldn't say this. I tried looking
at myself. Actually, somebody showed me

601
00:38:25.960 --> 00:38:30.280
myself on there, and like it
just got things wrong about me. First

602
00:38:30.320 --> 00:38:32.800
of all, it was weird that
it kind of knew me, but like

603
00:38:34.000 --> 00:38:37.639
it was like close enough to where
if somebody wrote like an essay, like

604
00:38:37.880 --> 00:38:42.199
they would have passed, but like
it was like there was mixed true things

605
00:38:42.239 --> 00:38:45.679
and false things in there. It
was very weird, sou But if again,

606
00:38:45.800 --> 00:38:49.280
my mind, because we're because we're
on talk, even my mind keeps

607
00:38:49.280 --> 00:38:52.199
coming back to things like God,
could you conceivably feed it data to a

608
00:38:52.239 --> 00:38:57.440
point where you could convince an emergent
intelligence of the existence of a God?

609
00:38:58.079 --> 00:39:00.480
I mean it would like, like
I said, it's a language, jamalel

610
00:39:00.599 --> 00:39:04.039
right, it doesn't have beliefs,
citizen, have you know, an internal

611
00:39:04.079 --> 00:39:07.079
sense of ego herself? As far
as I'm aware, it's just kind of

612
00:39:07.119 --> 00:39:10.280
putting together words that we like probability
engines, like yeah, it's the most

613
00:39:10.320 --> 00:39:14.119
likely word to come after this one. Yeah, exactly. I wouldn't describe

614
00:39:14.119 --> 00:39:20.280
it in an intelligence, right,
So yeah, but prostituting tests, Yeah,

615
00:39:20.320 --> 00:39:22.440
I don't even know if there's people
that say that the Turing tests itself,

616
00:39:22.599 --> 00:39:30.079
isn't even a good enough tool to
use to describe, um, you

617
00:39:30.119 --> 00:39:34.199
know, like like artificial intelligence,
like what what we consider to be passed.

618
00:39:34.760 --> 00:39:37.119
I think you might have called into
the wrong show. Yeah, that's

619
00:39:37.119 --> 00:39:38.239
true. That is above my pay. Great, I'll tell you that I

620
00:39:38.280 --> 00:39:43.159
did computer science twenty three years ago, so I am way way out of

621
00:39:43.199 --> 00:39:45.119
touch on that. Yeah, he's
still run it like we had to connect

622
00:39:45.159 --> 00:39:49.920
with him through dial up. Actually
we were first getting him in before.

623
00:39:50.159 --> 00:39:52.559
Yeah, it was. It was
a whole thing. But anyway, I

624
00:39:52.679 --> 00:39:55.039
only know interesting, interesting rabbit hole
of discussion here. I'm gonna go ahead

625
00:39:55.039 --> 00:39:58.360
and let you go so we can
talk to some other folks. But appreciate

626
00:39:58.400 --> 00:40:01.960
you calling in on you know,
some of those topics there, higher intelligence

627
00:40:01.960 --> 00:40:06.400
and whatever the hell that even means. Yeah, maybe I'll just phrase the

628
00:40:06.440 --> 00:40:08.639
question a little bit badly in terms
of trying to get a response. But

629
00:40:08.719 --> 00:40:12.880
yeah, interesting thoughts. I don't
think you phrased anything badly, Jamie.

630
00:40:13.039 --> 00:40:15.079
Are you doing a great job?
Isn't he doing a great job? Everybody?

631
00:40:15.679 --> 00:40:22.280
Yeah, listen to that audience.
Look beautiful, beautiful, beautiful.

632
00:40:23.280 --> 00:40:27.840
We're all having a good time here. So um, also, folks,

633
00:40:27.880 --> 00:40:30.760
I want to let you guys know
about a couple of different things. You

634
00:40:30.760 --> 00:40:35.760
can support us on Patreon at tiny
dot cc slash patreon t hum And there

635
00:40:35.880 --> 00:40:39.760
is a channel that houses all of
the shows of the ACA in podcast form.

636
00:40:39.800 --> 00:40:44.760
You can visit that at tiny dot
cc slash a n podcasts. If

637
00:40:44.760 --> 00:40:46.840
you're like me and you like to
listen to stuff rather than watch stuff,

638
00:40:47.039 --> 00:40:50.480
you should definitely check that out.
Of course, you should also check out

639
00:40:50.519 --> 00:40:53.719
the Talk Heathen Facebook group. It's
fan run and it's really cool. It's

640
00:40:53.760 --> 00:41:00.199
tiny dot ccs slash fbt HG for
that if you like having a discussion with

641
00:41:00.320 --> 00:41:04.280
like minded people, run by fans
for fans of course. And in case

642
00:41:04.320 --> 00:41:07.599
you didn't know, Talk Heathan does
have a TikTok and is going to be

643
00:41:07.960 --> 00:41:10.760
live before the show's on Sunday.
I don't know who was actually on today.

644
00:41:10.800 --> 00:41:14.880
I should have I should have heard
that, but oh it's up.

645
00:41:15.400 --> 00:41:19.719
Yeah, well Talk Heathen is doing
it um and uh they're starting to do

646
00:41:19.760 --> 00:41:21.840
it for ESP as well. But
yeah, if you want to check out

647
00:41:21.880 --> 00:41:24.719
the pre show um for uh,
you know, before the show starts on

648
00:41:24.760 --> 00:41:29.000
TikTok, you should definitely check that
out. I think it's really cool,

649
00:41:29.039 --> 00:41:31.880
and I think we are about at
a point where we can we got a

650
00:41:31.920 --> 00:41:36.480
little bit more time. I think
after maybe the next call we'll talk about

651
00:41:37.320 --> 00:41:40.199
the the top five patrons. But
real quick, one more thing as well.

652
00:41:40.239 --> 00:41:44.800
If you happen to be in the
Austin area May twenty eight, twenty

653
00:41:44.880 --> 00:41:49.000
twenty three, we will be broadcasting
live from the Free Thought Library, just

654
00:41:49.119 --> 00:41:52.719
like we are doing today, so
you can look at talk Heathan being hosted

655
00:41:52.719 --> 00:41:55.760
by Forrest Valkai and some special guests. Atheists Experience is also going to be

656
00:41:55.840 --> 00:42:00.000
hosted by Forrest and Jim Barrows.
So doors open it noon and hope to

657
00:42:00.039 --> 00:42:05.639
see you there, just like just
like today. So fun stuff there.

658
00:42:05.719 --> 00:42:10.079
JB ready to keep the discussion train
moving, chugging along, chugg it,

659
00:42:10.159 --> 00:42:13.519
chugga, choo chow. Okay,
I don't know where I'm going with that,

660
00:42:13.599 --> 00:42:16.119
but we are here to the next
call. Here we have Chris,

661
00:42:16.239 --> 00:42:21.199
who's calling in from Pennsylvania. Chris, you're live on talkie? Then what's

662
00:42:21.199 --> 00:42:22.719
going on? Chris? You are
live on talkie? Then can you hear

663
00:42:22.800 --> 00:42:25.360
us? Oh? No answer?
Well, Chris, I'm gonna put you

664
00:42:25.400 --> 00:42:30.360
back in the queue so that you
can talk to our folks in the back

665
00:42:30.559 --> 00:42:32.800
see if we can talk to you, but otherwise we're gonna move on to

666
00:42:32.840 --> 00:42:37.159
another caller. Um, I think
this is a good one we have.

667
00:42:37.800 --> 00:42:42.159
I think it's Matthias. Please tell
me if I'm not pronouncing your name correctly,

668
00:42:42.199 --> 00:42:45.480
Matthias from Finland? What's going on? Matthias? Are you there?

669
00:42:45.559 --> 00:42:47.719
Hello? Hello? Apologue? Um? Yeah, hello? Nice? Hi?

670
00:42:47.800 --> 00:42:50.679
How's it going? Is it Matthias? Did I get it right?

671
00:42:53.760 --> 00:42:57.480
What time is it in Finland right
now? I don't know if I've talked

672
00:42:57.480 --> 00:43:00.119
to somebody from Finland on this show. Quot up to ten so okay,

673
00:43:00.159 --> 00:43:04.000
well, all right, quarter to
ten. I guess there's an answer.

674
00:43:04.039 --> 00:43:06.679
Well, what's going on? And
what do you want to talk to us

675
00:43:06.719 --> 00:43:12.519
about? Yeah? So after that
cool COVID situation, there has been a

676
00:43:12.519 --> 00:43:17.599
lot more street preachers, which is
understandable in Finland. Really, yeah,

677
00:43:17.800 --> 00:43:21.880
that's like the last place I expect
there to be street preachers. I'll be

678
00:43:21.920 --> 00:43:23.760
honest. I thought you guys were, like, you know, not really

679
00:43:23.760 --> 00:43:29.639
into that stuff, but well we're
not. I have been like the literal

680
00:43:29.719 --> 00:43:32.920
first instances that I've met them,
So ah, that makes sense. Interesting,

681
00:43:34.039 --> 00:43:37.679
Okay, So a lot of street
preachers going on in Finland. Well,

682
00:43:37.000 --> 00:43:40.000
there are some, but I don't
know if that. Well, they

683
00:43:40.000 --> 00:43:45.440
are in every huge city in nowadays, and they are very obviously foreign,

684
00:43:45.639 --> 00:43:50.000
so like very few of them are
actuated things. That makes sense. That

685
00:43:50.159 --> 00:43:53.320
makes sense, you know, evangela
evangelism is I was going to ask how

686
00:43:53.320 --> 00:43:57.719
many how many of them are from
outside of the country, right, Well,

687
00:43:57.760 --> 00:44:00.199
we got to talk to those heathen
Finns, right, I mean,

688
00:44:00.239 --> 00:44:05.000
if anybody needs to convert to Christianity, it's the Finnish people. Come on.

689
00:44:05.239 --> 00:44:07.440
That's yeah, yeah for sure.
So I guess are you calling so

690
00:44:07.519 --> 00:44:10.559
that you want to know, like
how to deal with three preachers? That

691
00:44:10.760 --> 00:44:14.400
is that the call here? Yeah? What should I do with them?

692
00:44:14.400 --> 00:44:17.760
Because they are taken to speaking I
cannot like ACTCO and Sasla. Well,

693
00:44:17.800 --> 00:44:21.039
I know I could go and yell
at them, but I don't think that

694
00:44:21.199 --> 00:44:24.599
is product. So how should I
approach them? Should I just like completely

695
00:44:24.639 --> 00:44:30.360
ignore them like most people just ignore
them because I think if I think you

696
00:44:30.360 --> 00:44:34.480
should ignore them to be honest,
you know, um, like like the

697
00:44:34.480 --> 00:44:38.199
thing is if somebody who's put when
you talk about people who do what they

698
00:44:38.239 --> 00:44:42.840
do and literally go to other countries
to evangelize. Often they're paying their own

699
00:44:42.880 --> 00:44:45.840
time for that, right. Some
people, you know, do fundraisers and

700
00:44:45.880 --> 00:44:47.199
stuff, but for a lot of
times it's their own money to kind of

701
00:44:47.199 --> 00:44:51.760
do this thing. And when you're
that heavily invested in the thing that you're

702
00:44:51.800 --> 00:44:54.079
preaching about, it's just, I
mean, statistically, very unlikely that you're

703
00:44:54.079 --> 00:44:57.880
really going to change anybody's mind.
Now, if you do have the patience

704
00:44:57.880 --> 00:45:00.719
and you think you could talk to
them, I obviously vocate for street epistobology,

705
00:45:00.920 --> 00:45:05.239
right, asking folks questions about what
they believe in why, and maybe

706
00:45:05.280 --> 00:45:07.280
having that conversation with them. But
I can tell you, as somebody who

707
00:45:07.400 --> 00:45:13.119
also literally went to student to student
out of college campus, you know,

708
00:45:13.199 --> 00:45:16.079
your goal is to kind of like
talk to people about Jesus. Your goal

709
00:45:16.159 --> 00:45:19.880
isn't to really hear what they have
to say about it. You know,

710
00:45:19.920 --> 00:45:22.239
you're kind of pushing your own things, So your results are really going to

711
00:45:22.360 --> 00:45:24.960
vary with that. And of course
you never know who you're going to talk

712
00:45:25.000 --> 00:45:28.679
to in the streets as well,
so you have to be very cautious with

713
00:45:29.239 --> 00:45:30.440
who you talk to, especially if
you're going to be skeptical about it,

714
00:45:30.480 --> 00:45:32.880
right, But in general, I
mean, it's sad to say. It's

715
00:45:32.880 --> 00:45:37.519
honestly, usually not worth your time. Unfortunately, if they engage with you

716
00:45:37.599 --> 00:45:40.159
directly. I mean, of course
you might want to talk to them.

717
00:45:40.320 --> 00:45:45.119
People might be you know, be
empathetic if you can, yeah, be

718
00:45:45.199 --> 00:45:46.639
interested. I mean, you don't
have to believe anything they say, but

719
00:45:46.880 --> 00:45:51.800
they'll probably say something that's logically wrong, or you can pick a hole and

720
00:45:51.840 --> 00:45:53.679
if you want. But here's something
I've heard from a few people that have

721
00:45:53.760 --> 00:45:59.119
interacted at the ACA, especially ones
who used to be evangelical or went on

722
00:45:59.199 --> 00:46:02.960
missions like Moments and evangelicals. They
go to Europe, they go on the

723
00:46:04.000 --> 00:46:06.800
mission, they stay in Europe for
a bit and go, wow, this

724
00:46:06.880 --> 00:46:09.719
place is actually really cool and not
many people believe in God, and maybe

725
00:46:09.760 --> 00:46:14.119
there's a link there, and it's
actually kind of a step in the deacon

726
00:46:14.199 --> 00:46:17.800
version sometimes. So just be the
nicest thing you can be. Yeah,

727
00:46:17.880 --> 00:46:21.719
yeah, exactly the nicest thing you
can be. I like that. What

728
00:46:21.800 --> 00:46:23.320
do you think about that? That
makes a lot of sense. I have

729
00:46:23.519 --> 00:46:28.800
talked to few of them, and
they do like I mean, I am.

730
00:46:29.320 --> 00:46:34.159
There's not a lot of people usually, so whenever if I flow down,

731
00:46:34.400 --> 00:46:37.559
they quite easily can point in my
direction. So I have actually talked

732
00:46:37.559 --> 00:46:42.360
with a few of them, and
well, obviously they they're not going to

733
00:46:42.440 --> 00:46:45.239
change their mind of anything like that, so it's a stuff. It's pointless.

734
00:46:45.280 --> 00:46:51.199
But what has been interesting I have
talked with hard Actuationers, which that's

735
00:46:51.239 --> 00:46:54.480
a bit of a different, very
different religion, but I actually have gone

736
00:46:54.519 --> 00:46:59.199
a few of their meetings as well, because I wanted to kind of check

737
00:46:59.360 --> 00:47:01.280
check it out what it's all about
them. In fact, frankly, they

738
00:47:01.280 --> 00:47:06.880
didn't speak anything about religion. They
were just like chilling and just like trying

739
00:47:06.920 --> 00:47:09.199
to be you know, look in
the world and see how they could become

740
00:47:09.239 --> 00:47:15.199
their better selves. And that fuss
frankly, how I wish most religions would

741
00:47:15.199 --> 00:47:19.519
be. So yeah, I'll put
an asterisk on that because the High Christians

742
00:47:19.639 --> 00:47:22.400
definitely have their own sort of issues. But as someone who has also spent

743
00:47:22.480 --> 00:47:27.119
some time with the Higher Christians,
they are more about vibes for the most

744
00:47:27.119 --> 00:47:30.360
part, which you know is agreeable. For all would say about that is

745
00:47:30.360 --> 00:47:34.320
that there's no reason you need to
have a religion to get those vibes.

746
00:47:34.360 --> 00:47:37.320
It's perfectable. And i'd also push
back on the it's pointless thing that you

747
00:47:37.320 --> 00:47:44.280
said I don't think is any gentle
affirmative conversation you have with someone, even

748
00:47:44.320 --> 00:47:45.840
if they don't you don't change their
mind right, then you might be one

749
00:47:45.880 --> 00:47:52.440
step time step in their like pursuit
of actual there is I mean, like

750
00:47:52.639 --> 00:47:55.360
this is something and Jamie knows is
as a host, but it's like something

751
00:47:55.360 --> 00:48:00.480
I would encourage anybody who's having these
kinds of conversations if you're going in with

752
00:48:00.519 --> 00:48:05.320
the expectation that you're going to completely
flip somebody's mind, prepared to be fucking

753
00:48:05.400 --> 00:48:07.559
dunked on, okay, because like
you will not you will. You will

754
00:48:07.599 --> 00:48:10.320
feel bad and you'll be like,
oh, why isn't this person seeing the

755
00:48:10.320 --> 00:48:14.960
way I do? Because people just
don't work like that. It's very rare

756
00:48:15.159 --> 00:48:20.519
that somebody completely changes their life philosophy
based on one conversation. More than likely,

757
00:48:20.559 --> 00:48:22.000
though, you can be a stepping
stone. I mean, like some

758
00:48:22.039 --> 00:48:25.239
people, they've just folks, like
street preachers. They're used to people just

759
00:48:25.280 --> 00:48:30.519
as ignoring them. Like they may
enjoy having a conversation with you that lasts

760
00:48:30.559 --> 00:48:32.880
more than like ten minutes because like
they may not even get that you know.

761
00:48:32.960 --> 00:48:36.280
So yeah, you could be a
stepping stone. But I think that's

762
00:48:36.280 --> 00:48:39.519
how you have to approach these kinds
of conversations. Like I like in this

763
00:48:39.599 --> 00:48:44.719
metaphor to therapy, no therapy,
No therapist is going to be like,

764
00:48:44.760 --> 00:48:46.360
oh, you just need to come
to one session to me and like all

765
00:48:46.400 --> 00:48:50.400
of your problems are going to be
gone. Like that's just not how therapy

766
00:48:50.440 --> 00:48:52.880
works, right, There's stuff you
got to work on. And the same

767
00:48:52.920 --> 00:48:57.599
thing when we talk about really big
concepts like religious beliefs, like that's usually

768
00:48:57.599 --> 00:49:00.320
something you kind of have to work
on for yourself. You know, It's

769
00:49:00.320 --> 00:49:02.440
not something just flip a switch and
suddenly you're different in a day. I

770
00:49:02.440 --> 00:49:05.920
mean maybe that is for some people, but for most people, that's just

771
00:49:06.079 --> 00:49:08.039
not how it works, right.
But anyway, I appreciate you calling it,

772
00:49:08.199 --> 00:49:14.239
and I hope, I hope your
interactions with street preachers are useful and

773
00:49:14.360 --> 00:49:17.400
fruitful for you. Um, which
doesn't happen a lot with conversations with three

774
00:49:17.440 --> 00:49:21.119
preachers. But you never know,
maybe in Finland things are different. I'm

775
00:49:21.159 --> 00:49:23.039
gonna let you go now, but
thanks again for calling in, and go

776
00:49:23.079 --> 00:49:27.880
get some sleep. I guess,
um, you know in the dark,

777
00:49:28.000 --> 00:49:31.599
dark, cold, No, no, it'll be light because the sun will

778
00:49:31.599 --> 00:49:35.920
be going down probably about two in
the morning to see is he close enough

779
00:49:35.960 --> 00:49:37.880
to where like, you know,
it's it's like sun six months and then

780
00:49:38.039 --> 00:49:43.840
yeah, it's more north than Scotland
and they you never really probably gets dark

781
00:49:43.840 --> 00:49:45.840
in summer. Yeah, well,
I you know the funny thing about that

782
00:49:45.920 --> 00:49:49.880
I've heard about, you know,
the study of proxemics, which is this

783
00:49:50.119 --> 00:49:54.119
idea of how close people are to
each other in certain social situations. Right,

784
00:49:54.159 --> 00:49:59.440
so what's typical for Americans? What's
appropriate social distance between People's going to

785
00:49:59.480 --> 00:50:01.639
be different differ countries. Finished people, as far as I understand, have

786
00:50:01.760 --> 00:50:07.280
the longest, you know, distance
between themselves and strangers. It's like several

787
00:50:07.360 --> 00:50:09.039
feet away. It's like, I
don't know, it's like, yeah,

788
00:50:09.079 --> 00:50:13.199
you guys, easy to huddle up. It's it's it's cold up there,

789
00:50:13.239 --> 00:50:15.800
from as far as I understand it, But I've never been there anyway,

790
00:50:15.880 --> 00:50:19.280
talking a lot of shit about the
finished people today, I don't mean to

791
00:50:19.280 --> 00:50:22.559
do that. But regardless, we
got to move on here, and we

792
00:50:22.639 --> 00:50:25.000
have some super chats that I've been
late to announce, so let's go ahead

793
00:50:25.039 --> 00:50:29.239
and read these. First of all, we have someone calling James who gave

794
00:50:29.320 --> 00:50:32.639
us five dollars, who said O
d love what you do blind blimey,

795
00:50:32.719 --> 00:50:37.000
nice to meet you. I go
yeah, really good. Another one from

796
00:50:37.119 --> 00:50:40.960
ben Ravita who gave for ninety nine
and didn't leave a message, but we

797
00:50:42.000 --> 00:50:45.360
appreciate the for ninety nine. Thanks
for that. And it looks like that

798
00:50:45.519 --> 00:50:47.880
is all the super chats we got
right now, but again we will continue

799
00:50:47.880 --> 00:50:52.880
to read them, so please send
him in if you have them. Right

800
00:50:52.000 --> 00:50:58.119
now, it is time to give
our top five patrons a bit of a

801
00:50:58.199 --> 00:51:00.039
shout out. So I got the
list here, so I'm gonna read it

802
00:51:00.119 --> 00:51:06.840
this time. So our top five
patrons are going to be number one Dingleberry

803
00:51:06.960 --> 00:51:12.239
Jackson, number two, Ayam,
number three, Oops All Singularity, number

804
00:51:12.239 --> 00:51:16.480
four, Dave or Valgian, number
five, Calleve Hallavetti, and the honorable

805
00:51:16.519 --> 00:51:21.800
mention this week goes to Jonathan Hall
who was like our patron of the week,

806
00:51:21.840 --> 00:51:23.800
like last week our truth Wanted,
which is awesome. So thank you

807
00:51:23.960 --> 00:51:29.000
Jonathan Hollan. Thank you everybody who
donates on that patreon. You guys are

808
00:51:29.000 --> 00:51:30.559
awesome. And if you want to
get a chance to be one of the

809
00:51:30.599 --> 00:51:34.559
top five patrons and get your name
shouted out on talk Heathen, hey,

810
00:51:34.599 --> 00:51:37.559
go to that patreon and check it
out. Maybe you get your name shouted

811
00:51:37.559 --> 00:51:40.760
out on the show. You literally
couldn't do what we do without you,

812
00:51:42.000 --> 00:51:45.920
exactly exactly. So let's see we
got more folks who want to talk to

813
00:51:45.960 --> 00:51:50.480
us. I think Chris is now
ready to talk to us. Chris from

814
00:51:50.480 --> 00:51:52.679
Pennsylvania. You're live on Talk Heathan, Do we have you? Yeah,

815
00:51:52.679 --> 00:51:55.840
I'm here. Awesome, Chris.
What's going on? Oh? No much,

816
00:51:57.159 --> 00:51:59.639
you know, just trying to enjoin
up the weekend. Cool? Cool.

817
00:51:59.719 --> 00:52:04.760
So I see here that you want
to discuss the origin of morality and

818
00:52:04.920 --> 00:52:07.440
how it affects society. Is that
right? Uh? Yeah, okay,

819
00:52:07.599 --> 00:52:10.119
okay, so yeah, I know, please continue. I'm sorry, go

820
00:52:10.119 --> 00:52:14.639
ahead, I'm sorry, No,
okay, saw you so says Acts of

821
00:52:14.719 --> 00:52:16.719
I was atheist, and you know
I am. I do believe with God,

822
00:52:17.719 --> 00:52:22.119
and I think that Moraley is very
essential to the run of society.

823
00:52:22.320 --> 00:52:25.760
I think is very It's like the
blue that whole society together. Um.

824
00:52:27.039 --> 00:52:29.719
Often times when I talked to atheists, you know, they tell me that

825
00:52:29.800 --> 00:52:32.320
Moraley doesn't come from God. They
do tell me that Moraley is something.

826
00:52:32.519 --> 00:52:37.079
Well, I've heard that Moraley was
something that was evolved throughout our species.

827
00:52:37.119 --> 00:52:38.760
As evolution occurred. I just want
to ask you guys, like, how

828
00:52:38.800 --> 00:52:43.320
do you guys to find morality?
Yeah, morality is kind of a tricky

829
00:52:43.400 --> 00:52:46.639
word, you know. When atheists
typically discuss this, they usually at least

830
00:52:46.639 --> 00:52:51.960
they shouldn't, in my opinion,
use the word morality because morality kind of

831
00:52:52.079 --> 00:52:58.119
implies a system that we may not
actually agree exists. Sin, for example,

832
00:52:58.199 --> 00:53:00.239
is something that most atheists are going
to say isn't a thing too,

833
00:53:00.280 --> 00:53:04.719
So it may not be correct to
say something is immoral, but it may

834
00:53:04.760 --> 00:53:08.239
be more correct to say something is
ethical. Right, and ethics being sort

835
00:53:08.280 --> 00:53:12.320
of a system, a guideline that
could be followed. Of course, there's

836
00:53:12.440 --> 00:53:15.760
many different forms of ethics, and
the history of port philosophy is filled with

837
00:53:15.800 --> 00:53:19.800
them. You could literally spend your
whole life reading about them and not get

838
00:53:19.840 --> 00:53:22.039
to all of them. But the
point is, as far as where do

839
00:53:22.199 --> 00:53:25.519
ethics come from? Where do our
sense of right and wrong come from?

840
00:53:25.599 --> 00:53:30.760
I personally do believe Yeah, it
is something that comes naturally, something that

841
00:53:30.800 --> 00:53:35.960
comes and makes sense to a society
of beings that are able to communicate with

842
00:53:36.000 --> 00:53:38.800
each other like we do, and
have to live with each other in order

843
00:53:38.840 --> 00:53:44.280
to thrive and survive. Right and
I do think actually that other animals at

844
00:53:44.320 --> 00:53:47.079
least have some form of right and
wrong, but like it's more so in

845
00:53:47.079 --> 00:53:51.239
the sense of what works in their
best self interest or in their own self

846
00:53:51.280 --> 00:53:53.960
preservation. Like dogs, for example, you typically live in herds and will

847
00:53:54.079 --> 00:54:00.159
like sometimes have pack mentalities and hierarchies
within there because they understand following that system

848
00:54:00.199 --> 00:54:05.400
of ethics is going to lead to
their own self preservation. Right, So

849
00:54:05.639 --> 00:54:09.360
it may not be right or wrong
in some like godly Christian sense, but

850
00:54:09.519 --> 00:54:13.320
it does lead to self preservation.
I think, like that's how a lot

851
00:54:13.320 --> 00:54:15.639
of ethical systems are kind of based
on. Yeah, a couple of a

852
00:54:15.679 --> 00:54:22.719
couple of thoughts on my end.
Firstly, I ascribe to humanism the great

853
00:54:22.760 --> 00:54:25.840
rugod like what does the best,
the most good for most people? And

854
00:54:25.880 --> 00:54:30.280
we are social creatures. So I
believe that what we call ethics and what

855
00:54:30.320 --> 00:54:35.920
we may be term of morality is
a product of our increasing socialization and need

856
00:54:35.960 --> 00:54:38.400
to be a society. Morality yeah, not the best word in my opinion

857
00:54:38.480 --> 00:54:43.119
in didn't it tamplige? Judgment?
Yeah, And I don't think you judge

858
00:54:43.239 --> 00:54:45.400
you can be judged on morality.
I think only the effect of your actions

859
00:54:45.400 --> 00:54:51.840
should be judged. But what my
question to you is, Chris, how

860
00:54:51.960 --> 00:54:57.239
do you determine whether something that comes
from the moral code you follow? You

861
00:54:57.280 --> 00:55:00.599
say it comes from God. How
do you judge that actually is moral?

862
00:55:00.760 --> 00:55:02.920
Well, it's kind of hard to
discuss that with atheists because they don't believe

863
00:55:02.960 --> 00:55:07.000
in God. I believe that things, at the end of the day are

864
00:55:07.079 --> 00:55:09.480
kind of like binary. It either
falls into a category of it is or

865
00:55:09.519 --> 00:55:13.039
it isn't. And I know,
like, uh, because I didn't want

866
00:55:13.039 --> 00:55:15.920
to, I'm sorry, I'll ask
you a question first. That would be

867
00:55:15.960 --> 00:55:17.559
the way that I do it.
Um, it's binary, either something is

868
00:55:17.599 --> 00:55:22.320
good or something is bad. Because, like I like to think the humans

869
00:55:22.320 --> 00:55:24.599
like computers, and we like the
fact that we process things kind of similar

870
00:55:24.639 --> 00:55:28.960
to computers. When you have a
computer, you given instructions, it always

871
00:55:29.000 --> 00:55:31.159
comes out to a binary. There's
no like in between. It either is

872
00:55:31.280 --> 00:55:36.599
or it isn't. So that's interesting. You think all moral actions can be

873
00:55:36.920 --> 00:55:39.119
put into a binary? Yes,
I do so. The way that I

874
00:55:39.159 --> 00:55:43.599
look at morality is I believe that
because I know people talk about the gray

875
00:55:43.639 --> 00:55:45.719
areas, so you have something that's
good and something that's bad. I think

876
00:55:45.719 --> 00:55:51.000
all actions fall in between. The
end result of those actions fall either in

877
00:55:51.039 --> 00:55:53.280
between good or bad. Right,
So the gray area to me, yeah,

878
00:55:53.360 --> 00:55:59.440
just as killing people unnecessarily for example, that would probably fall into a

879
00:55:59.519 --> 00:56:01.559
bad right, Like, just just
to you know, give an example to

880
00:56:01.599 --> 00:56:06.199
your point, I would argue that
take a life is bad in general.

881
00:56:06.559 --> 00:56:09.239
Now, the great area, the
great area for me is the intent.

882
00:56:09.400 --> 00:56:13.239
Right. So for example, I
like the users all the time. Like,

883
00:56:13.440 --> 00:56:15.079
if you have somebody who's poor,
right, and they can't afford to

884
00:56:15.079 --> 00:56:19.440
eat, and maybe they're just hypothetically
about to die the next day, right,

885
00:56:19.559 --> 00:56:21.880
and you know you, as a
good person, don't want them to

886
00:56:21.920 --> 00:56:23.079
die, but you don't have any
money. Right. Yeah, Let's say

887
00:56:23.079 --> 00:56:27.840
you're going too the store and you
take food so they won't die, and

888
00:56:27.920 --> 00:56:30.960
you give them the food and they
don't die. Now, I don't think

889
00:56:30.960 --> 00:56:34.400
anybody will debate that the act of
stilling is wrong. You're taking something that

890
00:56:34.440 --> 00:56:37.199
doesn't belong to you from somebody else. You didn't work for that, you

891
00:56:37.199 --> 00:56:39.320
didn't have anything to do with that, So stilling is wrong. But the

892
00:56:39.400 --> 00:56:43.639
intent to save the person's life is
the good thing. Right. So I

893
00:56:43.679 --> 00:56:45.400
think from that point is you know, you would you would debate at that

894
00:56:45.440 --> 00:56:50.159
point was that action justified. But
I think the morality itself, that the

895
00:56:50.199 --> 00:56:52.840
action of living bad, falls into
one or the other category. Okay,

896
00:56:52.920 --> 00:56:57.280
So if God, for example,
were to kill a bunch of people unnecessarily

897
00:56:57.360 --> 00:57:00.000
and his intent was he believed them
to be, you know, not up

898
00:57:00.000 --> 00:57:02.880
to his standards of what he's right
or wrong, would you say that that's

899
00:57:02.880 --> 00:57:07.440
a bad thing to do. So
I think the context is important, like,

900
00:57:07.719 --> 00:57:10.119
you know, because I've heard that
argument many times, So suddenly none

901
00:57:10.159 --> 00:57:15.079
of them like binary then subjective.
Yeah, it seems like that there's more

902
00:57:15.119 --> 00:57:20.440
context than just you know, yes
or no in regards to what exactly.

903
00:57:20.559 --> 00:57:24.000
Well, you said that all moral
actions can be viewed as either correct or

904
00:57:24.039 --> 00:57:28.639
incorrect, and so I asked,
well, if if not it did a

905
00:57:28.679 --> 00:57:32.039
moral action specific way, it's either
correct or incorrect, right according to this

906
00:57:32.119 --> 00:57:36.440
view. Um, but you seem
to indicate that it's a bit more complicated.

907
00:57:36.519 --> 00:57:39.039
Well not really, because when I
was talking about the person who stole

908
00:57:39.039 --> 00:57:43.599
from the store, the action itself
is bad. So this is where like

909
00:57:43.639 --> 00:57:45.800
atheists and Christmas kind of like,
this is where the dissonances. You know,

910
00:57:46.519 --> 00:57:50.360
you can't you can't relate. God
is supposed to be the arbit or

911
00:57:50.400 --> 00:57:52.000
good in the buybre Right, everything
is good is supposed to come from God,

912
00:57:52.159 --> 00:57:55.280
so all the action that he does
are just well, i'd like to

913
00:57:55.360 --> 00:58:00.519
use this example, right, I
don't because I have to say I'm sorry

914
00:58:00.519 --> 00:58:02.679
to cut it off there, Chris. But like, there's so many things

915
00:58:02.719 --> 00:58:07.440
in that book that I find personally
abhorrent, and I can't disguise that I'm

916
00:58:07.440 --> 00:58:10.480
not going I could chugger a coat
too. And they are as a or

917
00:58:10.480 --> 00:58:16.159
on the orders of God, and
to the point where he overrides the natural

918
00:58:16.480 --> 00:58:23.159
in numbers twenty three when you go
when they go and take out the nights

919
00:58:23.920 --> 00:58:27.599
after did you say he said number
twenty three numbers. I'm not a Bible

920
00:58:27.719 --> 00:58:30.960
absolute Bible scar but scolar. But
it's the famous story of Moses commanding the

921
00:58:31.000 --> 00:58:37.079
troops to go and and sack and
eliminate the mini media nights because they did

922
00:58:37.159 --> 00:58:40.760
a plague apparently, and they spare
the women in children, and God is

923
00:58:40.840 --> 00:58:45.239
angry and tells Moses to tell them
to kill all the women and the boy

924
00:58:45.360 --> 00:58:50.639
children and any of the other girls
that have known men. So that is

925
00:58:51.519 --> 00:58:55.559
monstrous. So if someone's gonna be
a proponent of that kind of action.

926
00:58:55.880 --> 00:58:59.559
Even if I were to say,
yeah, he's got a moral code,

927
00:58:59.679 --> 00:59:01.880
I don't want to follow that code. Sure. Yeah. In other words,

928
00:59:02.119 --> 00:59:07.079
it may be that under God's system, whatever he says is right,

929
00:59:07.239 --> 00:59:10.320
But why should I care about what
God thinks is right? Right? Like

930
00:59:10.519 --> 00:59:14.280
we can always say, well I
think what I do is right? Okay,

931
00:59:14.320 --> 00:59:16.559
So what right we have to like
kind of look outside of that a

932
00:59:16.559 --> 00:59:20.480
little bit? Okay? I mean, I respect the point that you guys

933
00:59:20.480 --> 00:59:22.599
are making. Um, there was
an example that I was given in regards

934
00:59:22.599 --> 00:59:27.719
to them, because you guys gave
me a scenario with God commanding I'm sorry,

935
00:59:27.719 --> 00:59:30.920
well, can you just repeat what
it was? If I'm getting it

936
00:59:30.000 --> 00:59:34.880
right? If I'm getting get right, the God, as part of the

937
00:59:36.519 --> 00:59:39.239
exodus, sorry, from their exodus
from their slavery in Egypt to find the

938
00:59:39.239 --> 00:59:45.119
promised land, Um, Moses commands
what was it, one thousand of every

939
00:59:45.159 --> 00:59:49.920
tribe to come to war, and
it gets about fifteen thousand guys and they

940
00:59:49.960 --> 00:59:52.840
destroy an entire civilization on God's orders. They kill all the men, They

941
00:59:52.880 --> 00:59:58.519
burn the entire civilization to the ground, they spare the women, and that

942
00:59:58.679 --> 01:00:02.840
anger's God because they didn't do a
thorough enough job. So he commands the

943
01:00:02.920 --> 01:00:07.800
army to kill the women the boy
children, but the girl children who have

944
01:00:07.880 --> 01:00:09.519
not known a man, you can
keep for yourself. And I think we

945
01:00:09.519 --> 01:00:13.920
can make an implication what they mean
by keep for yourself, and it's not

946
01:00:13.960 --> 01:00:16.480
a very nice implication. I doubt
they're going to be scrubbing flaws or only

947
01:00:16.639 --> 01:00:21.400
scrubbing flaws. So when someone says
morality comes from God, and that's an

948
01:00:21.400 --> 01:00:24.360
example of what he sees his moral, captain h he sees his moral I'm

949
01:00:24.360 --> 01:00:28.400
like, I don't. I'm not
sure I can agree with that if I'm

950
01:00:28.440 --> 01:00:31.480
honest. Oh, I'm sorry.
There was a scenario before they that you,

951
01:00:31.480 --> 01:00:34.719
guys, if you asked me a
question. I believe it was along

952
01:00:34.760 --> 01:00:38.119
the line of like if um,
like if God killed God. If God

953
01:00:38.119 --> 01:00:42.719
decides that he wants to kill me, for example, just says that I

954
01:00:42.760 --> 01:00:46.440
should die, you know, would
you consider that a good thing? So

955
01:00:46.599 --> 01:00:50.239
again, I think because I was
given an example in regard to that,

956
01:00:50.400 --> 01:00:52.440
the scenario like, for example,
if you have a guy, right,

957
01:00:52.599 --> 01:00:55.079
he um, I don't want to, you know, demonetize your God.

958
01:00:55.119 --> 01:00:59.039
Some said the great I say,
there was a person who greened who killed

959
01:00:59.239 --> 01:01:01.239
right? You put them in Joel, right, and he kept finding a

960
01:01:01.280 --> 01:01:05.280
way to get off, right because
I told because the position that I hold

961
01:01:05.320 --> 01:01:07.559
is something that is good or bad, and for me, killing is always

962
01:01:07.559 --> 01:01:09.000
bad. Right. But I also
did say that, you know, it's

963
01:01:09.039 --> 01:01:13.119
that gray area to see if it's
just a no. So he keeps escaping,

964
01:01:13.199 --> 01:01:15.559
Joel, he keeps murdering. He
murders people's by the thousands, right,

965
01:01:15.599 --> 01:01:19.039
So you put him the jail again, and then he keeps breaking out.

966
01:01:19.119 --> 01:01:22.119
So the only solution you can do
to emiliate or just eliminate the fact

967
01:01:22.159 --> 01:01:24.719
that people are suffering is to kill
this guy, right. I think it

968
01:01:24.840 --> 01:01:28.599
kind of go along? Is that
saying like kind of principle, you know,

969
01:01:28.639 --> 01:01:30.039
the killing itself. Yes, I
believe that, you know, humans

970
01:01:30.039 --> 01:01:32.679
should not kill each other. That's
what I believe. But again, that

971
01:01:32.719 --> 01:01:37.639
grey area that I'm talking about,
is it just? I believe it is

972
01:01:37.679 --> 01:01:39.519
just in that case because the evil
that he's spreading in the world, which

973
01:01:39.599 --> 01:01:42.800
is to kill him, you know, the griping and all other stuff,

974
01:01:43.079 --> 01:01:45.679
is going to be basically non existent
when he dies. Sure, but I

975
01:01:45.719 --> 01:01:50.239
guess to say that. Let's take
for example, they I don't know if

976
01:01:50.239 --> 01:01:53.239
you believe in a literal flood.
But you know in the flood right Book

977
01:01:53.239 --> 01:01:59.199
of Genesis, it talks about now
literally everyone on Earth except for Noah's family

978
01:01:59.599 --> 01:02:01.880
was killed by God. And that
has to include women, that has to

979
01:02:01.880 --> 01:02:07.159
include pregnant women, has to include
children, right, I mean people who

980
01:02:07.199 --> 01:02:10.239
weren't going out killing other people as
far as we know, we're suffering from

981
01:02:10.239 --> 01:02:15.440
this, right, like to kill
someone under those circumstances, I would describe

982
01:02:15.480 --> 01:02:20.400
that as a bad thing, right, And I want to know would you

983
01:02:20.440 --> 01:02:23.400
consider that a bad thing? Because
you also said, yeah, killing like

984
01:02:23.679 --> 01:02:27.599
unjustly is wrong, and I agree
with you, and I think this is

985
01:02:27.599 --> 01:02:32.840
an example of killing unjustly. Right
these people again, you can't the five

986
01:02:32.920 --> 01:02:37.159
year old child that died in that
flood is probably not going out murdering people.

987
01:02:37.320 --> 01:02:40.639
Didn't know the todlist could be literally
wicked. Yeah, you know,

988
01:02:40.760 --> 01:02:44.079
so, like, what what is
the deal here? Do you understand what

989
01:02:44.119 --> 01:02:47.960
I'm asking? Far as I know? The disobedience that happens in the Bible,

990
01:02:49.079 --> 01:02:51.840
Like a lot of people in the
Bible were disobedience, so you know,

991
01:02:51.880 --> 01:02:54.159
in God's eyes or if you believe
in the concept of like you know,

992
01:02:54.199 --> 01:02:57.840
it'd being a bin or anything that
goes against it. So if you

993
01:02:57.920 --> 01:03:00.480
go against good, it's you,
you know what I mean? Yeah,

994
01:03:00.480 --> 01:03:04.920
and I agree. I think killing
toddlers is evil. Do you agree killing

995
01:03:04.920 --> 01:03:07.880
toddlers in a flood? Yeah?
This should be like a like a no

996
01:03:07.960 --> 01:03:13.199
brainer. Oh right, killing toddlers
in a flood is mad? Right,

997
01:03:13.239 --> 01:03:15.679
that's evil. I mean again,
it's a lot of it's a lot of

998
01:03:15.679 --> 01:03:20.719
context. I don't think there needs
to be context for in a flood,

999
01:03:21.280 --> 01:03:23.679
like that's the problem, right,
This is Look, Chris, I'm sorry

1000
01:03:23.719 --> 01:03:29.599
to rub, but this is what
Christianity does. Okay. It justifies terrible,

1001
01:03:29.800 --> 01:03:35.119
terrible, terrible, terrible things because
you feel an obligation to a God

1002
01:03:35.559 --> 01:03:38.119
that says this is right. Because
I say so, that's it. There

1003
01:03:38.239 --> 01:03:43.719
is no other justification. He's the
creator, he gets to make the rules.

1004
01:03:43.880 --> 01:03:46.039
That's it. That's all I've ever
heard from Christians, and that's all

1005
01:03:46.079 --> 01:03:50.400
I ever continue to hear. It's
it's like, look, in any other

1006
01:03:50.480 --> 01:03:53.119
worldview, if I said, well, my God, Perry the platypus,

1007
01:03:53.159 --> 01:03:59.599
I don't know it says like we
should kill toddlers in a flood because they're

1008
01:03:59.639 --> 01:04:02.280
wicked, I would hope you'd say
no, that's bad, right, because

1009
01:04:02.360 --> 01:04:06.679
you're not a period of platypushologists or
whatever my followers are. Yeah, and

1010
01:04:06.800 --> 01:04:10.920
you think that that's evil, because
like we we have the capacity. This

1011
01:04:11.000 --> 01:04:14.519
is what we mean when atheists say
we talk about ethics. We have a

1012
01:04:14.559 --> 01:04:18.320
capacity to evaluate what is beneficial for
us and what is not beneficial for us.

1013
01:04:18.360 --> 01:04:21.719
And let me tell you, it's
a really simple thing, killing toddlers

1014
01:04:21.719 --> 01:04:25.480
in a flood. Yeah, that's
an easy one. Don't do it.

1015
01:04:25.599 --> 01:04:27.719
I don't think that. I don't
think you should do it. And I'm

1016
01:04:27.760 --> 01:04:30.480
not a big proponent. I would
like to say this, Chris, and

1017
01:04:30.519 --> 01:04:34.400
I'll let you speak after these promise, But would you take any other authority,

1018
01:04:34.639 --> 01:04:40.519
any other authority that goes with do
what I say? Or you're dead?

1019
01:04:40.639 --> 01:04:43.199
So you're asking me answer the question. Yeah, would you take that

1020
01:04:43.280 --> 01:04:46.039
authority from anyone else? Anything else? In a government, any person,

1021
01:04:46.079 --> 01:04:50.960
any friend, anyone, if they
threatened you with death or obedience, he

1022
01:04:51.039 --> 01:04:55.280
could know. Because I believe that
humans are flood. Yeah, so somebody

1023
01:04:55.320 --> 01:04:59.480
could be telling me to follow something
and I necessarily not be from my benefit.

1024
01:04:59.559 --> 01:05:02.599
I believe if the God of Christianity
is flawed too, because I don't

1025
01:05:02.599 --> 01:05:08.159
see how a perfect god of a
who's perfectly good as a perfect understanding,

1026
01:05:08.159 --> 01:05:11.280
has any reason to kill toddlers in
a flood? You got it right first

1027
01:05:11.320 --> 01:05:15.199
time. It was perfect. Yeah. So so can I ask you God

1028
01:05:15.239 --> 01:05:17.000
as a question very quickly? Yes? So like what in the Bible?

1029
01:05:17.320 --> 01:05:20.760
So when the Bible do you have
an objection with? Like the things that

1030
01:05:20.880 --> 01:05:26.159
we have to follow, the killing
toddler's mart that's I cannot make this more

1031
01:05:26.239 --> 01:05:30.519
clear, and I have an objection
to this. Let's go to the tennis

1032
01:05:30.360 --> 01:05:33.599
mother and thy father? What if
they're abusive? What if they're horrible people?

1033
01:05:33.840 --> 01:05:36.920
I know, people who have been
utterly, utterly damaged by the people

1034
01:05:36.960 --> 01:05:41.360
that brought them into this world.
But if why so used to follow God's

1035
01:05:41.400 --> 01:05:44.840
word, you must honor them even
though they beat you and burned you with

1036
01:05:44.960 --> 01:05:47.800
cigarettes, starved you and locked you
in a closet. No, I'm not

1037
01:05:47.880 --> 01:05:51.159
going to follow those rules because they
are immoral in my mind. If you

1038
01:05:51.199 --> 01:05:55.639
want to go with morality or unethical, yeah, but that doesn't really like

1039
01:05:55.760 --> 01:05:59.159
answer my question like why like and
thy mother and thy father? Yes,

1040
01:05:59.239 --> 01:06:01.599
you have suations where parents would do
that. You know, I'm not denying

1041
01:06:01.679 --> 01:06:04.840
that, But why is that inherently
a bad thing because you know, things

1042
01:06:04.880 --> 01:06:09.159
are contextual. He just said,
why it's a it's a bad thing because

1043
01:06:09.360 --> 01:06:13.679
not all don't honor them. Yeah, not all parents are created equal.

1044
01:06:14.000 --> 01:06:16.280
You know, some parents just suck. That's it, Like you shouldn't have

1045
01:06:16.400 --> 01:06:19.960
to honor them. And I apologize
for getting hated. Its quite sing to

1046
01:06:20.000 --> 01:06:23.760
you. No, no, I
understand, But that doesn't look that that

1047
01:06:23.840 --> 01:06:27.679
doesn't like necessarily answer my question.
Why it like you have a situation where

1048
01:06:27.760 --> 01:06:30.119
yes, a parent will abuse you, but I'm talking about the idea of

1049
01:06:30.280 --> 01:06:32.360
honor and my mother and my father. How is that a bad thing?

1050
01:06:32.559 --> 01:06:38.599
Because because as as an absolute rule, it's a bad Chris, if Hitler

1051
01:06:38.760 --> 01:06:43.159
was your dad, I don't you
don't have to honor him, you know

1052
01:06:43.239 --> 01:06:46.239
what I mean? Like, like
I think that's a bad thing, right

1053
01:06:46.320 --> 01:06:49.400
if you're like, well, listen, I have to honor my dad because

1054
01:06:49.480 --> 01:06:53.800
the Bible says, like I would
say, no, you don't. You

1055
01:06:53.920 --> 01:06:56.920
know, Chris, are you still
there though? Yeah, yeah, yeah,

1056
01:06:56.920 --> 01:06:59.719
I'm still here. So I mean
that's that's like, like it's not

1057
01:06:59.800 --> 01:07:02.400
really like answering my question. So
what do we not answering? Chris?

1058
01:07:03.119 --> 01:07:09.400
So can you imagine Chris can you
imagine a situation in which a pet like,

1059
01:07:09.519 --> 01:07:12.039
what do you mean by honoring your
mother than your father respecting them?

1060
01:07:12.400 --> 01:07:14.800
What what does it mean to honor
a mother and the father? Can you

1061
01:07:14.840 --> 01:07:16.360
give me a definition on that?
I would say, like going alone a

1062
01:07:16.400 --> 01:07:19.320
lines of not disrespecting them, like
you don't have you don't have to be

1063
01:07:19.400 --> 01:07:21.880
fond of them, like for the
Hitler example, right, Okay, I

1064
01:07:21.920 --> 01:07:25.039
would say, like, so,
so let me say this way. I

1065
01:07:25.159 --> 01:07:28.239
need to hear this. I'm sorry, Chris, what about the Hitler example?

1066
01:07:28.320 --> 01:07:31.920
Please? So Like for the Hitler
example, right, I wouldn't say

1067
01:07:31.960 --> 01:07:34.440
like I would say, like,
for example, you don't have because the

1068
01:07:34.519 --> 01:07:38.760
way if you respect is to hold
something in high regard. Um. I

1069
01:07:38.800 --> 01:07:42.039
don't think that's what the Bible means
about it because it was written in Hebrew

1070
01:07:42.039 --> 01:07:45.039
and Greek um, depending on the
Testament that you're looking at. Okay,

1071
01:07:45.079 --> 01:07:48.079
So I would say it more allies
with the fact like not disrespecting that person,

1072
01:07:48.280 --> 01:07:50.880
you know what I mean? So
not going out your way to like

1073
01:07:51.119 --> 01:07:56.639
I don't know, I don't know
if you can. I think so if

1074
01:07:56.760 --> 01:08:00.519
Hitler was your dad, right,
Like, would you think it would be

1075
01:08:00.639 --> 01:08:03.639
wrong if you went out of your
way to disrespect him me personally. I

1076
01:08:03.719 --> 01:08:08.840
mean, I probably wouldn't do it. Well, that's wild, that's wild.

1077
01:08:09.360 --> 01:08:12.480
Uh, that is the difference between
you and I. I guess if

1078
01:08:12.599 --> 01:08:15.239
Hitler was my dad, I would
be like, yeah, man, that's

1079
01:08:15.679 --> 01:08:18.079
you know, but not a fan
of your work, you know what I'm

1080
01:08:18.119 --> 01:08:23.079
saying, Like, I'm not honoring
that. So that again, that's hold

1081
01:08:23.079 --> 01:08:26.119
on. I'm sorry. I just
need to interject the reason why I sound

1082
01:08:26.159 --> 01:08:29.680
for like my question is not being
answered because that's like an extreme I feel

1083
01:08:29.720 --> 01:08:30.920
like you could take a shrink anything. Okay, Well, let me give

1084
01:08:30.960 --> 01:08:34.800
you a less extremely exam. Chris, Chris, Chris. Okay, let's

1085
01:08:34.880 --> 01:08:39.720
hypothetically say you know someone who has
a kid, right, and they are

1086
01:08:40.720 --> 01:08:44.840
letting that kid um run them up. They're not disciplining them, they're not

1087
01:08:45.279 --> 01:08:47.760
properly cleaning up after him. They're
feeling nothing but drunk food. They let

1088
01:08:47.840 --> 01:08:51.920
them watch R rated movies even though
they're ten years old. They do like

1089
01:08:53.319 --> 01:08:56.119
out, They're drunk around them,
they do drugs around them. They're just

1090
01:08:56.439 --> 01:09:00.079
a crappy parent. Would you respect
that person? Person you're talking about the

1091
01:09:00.159 --> 01:09:05.680
parent, I'm that person, not
from your perspective, or Yeah, from

1092
01:09:05.720 --> 01:09:11.000
your perspective, that person is a
bad parent, would you respect them as

1093
01:09:11.000 --> 01:09:14.359
a person. Probably not. I
wouldn't probably want to them hold them in

1094
01:09:14.359 --> 01:09:16.359
any high regard at all. Then
why does that kid have to? Then

1095
01:09:16.479 --> 01:09:20.359
why does that kid have to just
because they're related? If you weren't respecting,

1096
01:09:20.439 --> 01:09:24.239
why do you demand the child last? Well again, I mean I

1097
01:09:24.359 --> 01:09:27.560
believe that when it talks about respect
is the whold something in high regard.

1098
01:09:27.640 --> 01:09:30.079
I don't think God is going to
be mad at you if you don't hold

1099
01:09:30.119 --> 01:09:31.720
your parents in high regard. I
think there's two different things. Again,

1100
01:09:31.880 --> 01:09:35.760
I don't believe that the word I'm
sorry, I don't believe the word respect

1101
01:09:36.000 --> 01:09:39.760
is the same concept that we use
today. What do you think they meant?

1102
01:09:40.199 --> 01:09:43.039
Like, what what do you think
that that rule was asking? So

1103
01:09:43.199 --> 01:09:45.520
like for example, like if you
had a situation where your mom's a musing,

1104
01:09:45.680 --> 01:09:48.640
don't call her you know, an
F andbi tch, you know,

1105
01:09:49.000 --> 01:09:53.520
like something like that. You know, so you think it talks about don't

1106
01:09:53.560 --> 01:09:57.840
cuss your mom out, Like that's
what the Bible authors intent was, Well,

1107
01:09:57.960 --> 01:10:00.119
don't disrespect, like that's one of
the things and it tells disrespect that's

1108
01:10:00.159 --> 01:10:02.039
what that's what I mean. But
I don't. I don't feel like this

1109
01:10:02.199 --> 01:10:05.640
still answers my questions. So if
we if we like those extreme examples,

1110
01:10:05.680 --> 01:10:10.039
if we take those out right,
how is that inherently bad to show respect

1111
01:10:10.039 --> 01:10:13.760
to you? Because they're extreme examples? But every damn day there, Yeah,

1112
01:10:13.800 --> 01:10:17.600
there are children who live with abuse
of parents, and and and and

1113
01:10:17.760 --> 01:10:21.520
shouldn't have to feel obligated to listen
to anything and what they have to say

1114
01:10:21.560 --> 01:10:25.159
about anything. I mean, in
fact, it's damaging because he's like,

1115
01:10:25.239 --> 01:10:27.720
do you believe that they must honor
that mother than their father if they won't

1116
01:10:27.720 --> 01:10:30.199
do anything to get themselves out from
under the awful situation? Right? I

1117
01:10:30.239 --> 01:10:32.600
don't. I don't. But see, that's that's the thing I like.

1118
01:10:32.640 --> 01:10:35.319
I feel like you can do that. You can get yourself out of those

1119
01:10:35.359 --> 01:10:40.159
situations without having to disrespect your parents. That's what I'm saying. Like,

1120
01:10:40.399 --> 01:10:43.199
I feel like a lot of nuance
and context is being missed here. You

1121
01:10:43.239 --> 01:10:45.159
know, I'm not saying, well, if your parents tell you to smoke

1122
01:10:45.239 --> 01:10:48.840
weed or drink or cut yourself,
listen to the that's not that's I don't

1123
01:10:48.840 --> 01:10:53.520
think they're saying that. I'm just
trying to understand, Like, how is

1124
01:10:53.600 --> 01:10:56.439
that bad for society? I mean, we would agree, like a lot

1125
01:10:56.479 --> 01:10:59.079
of stuff that's going on in these
schools today, like you know, kids

1126
01:10:59.159 --> 01:11:01.479
fighting their teachers because there's a lack
of respect not only for the parents,

1127
01:11:01.520 --> 01:11:05.600
but the teachers as well. I
think that I think Jamie already, I

1128
01:11:05.680 --> 01:11:09.640
think Jamie already made a great example
of this. Right, if you wouldn't

1129
01:11:09.640 --> 01:11:13.760
show respect to someone who's abusing their
child, why should the child show any

1130
01:11:13.800 --> 01:11:17.000
amount of respect period towards their abuser, right, because that's all they are

1131
01:11:17.039 --> 01:11:19.680
in that situation. There, they're
less of a parent, but less of

1132
01:11:19.720 --> 01:11:23.640
a caretaker, and more of just
an abuser. Right. I don't think

1133
01:11:23.680 --> 01:11:29.159
they're owed any amount of respect just
because the ten Commandment says so there's there's

1134
01:11:29.199 --> 01:11:30.279
no reason. But look, we
really do have to wrap this up because

1135
01:11:30.439 --> 01:11:33.720
we got to move on and talk
about it. Thank you for calling us,

1136
01:11:33.800 --> 01:11:38.439
Chris about this. But clearly,
again, this is the difference between

1137
01:11:38.640 --> 01:11:41.880
how I used to think about ethics
and morality versus how I do now.

1138
01:11:41.960 --> 01:11:47.560
I do not feel an obligation to
listen to interpretations literal or otherwise of a

1139
01:11:47.720 --> 01:11:50.399
text to tell me, well,
this is how you should live your life

1140
01:11:50.680 --> 01:11:55.880
versus what does Anna even mean?
Yeah? Yeah, I mean again,

1141
01:11:56.199 --> 01:12:00.880
for simple questions like is it okay
to drown a toddler? I have very

1142
01:12:00.960 --> 01:12:04.159
easy answers to that. I don't
have to cite context. There's no context

1143
01:12:04.239 --> 01:12:08.319
for that. And that is the
difference between the systems that we come up

1144
01:12:08.359 --> 01:12:12.840
with as atheists, which again are
secular in origin and our human focused versus

1145
01:12:12.920 --> 01:12:16.439
ones that demand obedience to some sort
of divine higher authority that we can't see

1146
01:12:16.640 --> 01:12:21.079
here or interact within any meaningful capacity. So there you go. That's my

1147
01:12:21.239 --> 01:12:27.479
take on that. Hopefully we don't
have to elaborate any further. So real

1148
01:12:27.600 --> 01:12:30.960
quickly, I think we got time
for one more caller and oh we got

1149
01:12:31.000 --> 01:12:34.359
audience questions. Actually we're going to
do that in just a second, but

1150
01:12:34.600 --> 01:12:38.640
real quick, before we get to
our audience, have you ever said yourself,

1151
01:12:38.840 --> 01:12:42.039
I really love the content the ACA
creates, but I wish there was

1152
01:12:42.079 --> 01:12:44.560
a way I could get it all
the time. Well, we got you

1153
01:12:44.680 --> 01:12:48.199
covered. There is a twenty four
seven live stream of the Atheist Experience that

1154
01:12:48.319 --> 01:12:51.319
you can go to right now.
Don't do it right now because they're listening

1155
01:12:51.359 --> 01:12:55.600
slash watching to this, but after
this. You can check it out and

1156
01:12:56.119 --> 01:12:59.600
tune in at any time of the
day to experience the clips from old stuff

1157
01:12:59.680 --> 01:13:03.720
and stuff this from specials and content
that has existed for twenty six seasons of

1158
01:13:03.840 --> 01:13:08.800
The Atheist Experience UM and check in
with the chat there as well. There's

1159
01:13:08.920 --> 01:13:12.319
usually other people there and it's a
good time, so check that out when

1160
01:13:12.359 --> 01:13:15.720
you're not watching a slash listening to
talk Ethan preferably. But I'm not your

1161
01:13:15.760 --> 01:13:21.680
parents, so I don't have to
respect me, so anyway, I respect

1162
01:13:24.199 --> 01:13:26.600
UM. But I listened to it
as I go to sleep at night.

1163
01:13:26.680 --> 01:13:29.359
I use it as white noise,
not that it's not nonsense, but it's

1164
01:13:29.560 --> 01:13:32.680
just a wonderful way to to drift
off with the He's saying the Atheist Experience

1165
01:13:32.720 --> 01:13:36.359
hosts are so boring that he can
fall asleep to it. Jamie, you're

1166
01:13:36.520 --> 01:13:43.319
man, you're two for two,
dude, I'm one. He's he's Oh

1167
01:13:43.439 --> 01:13:46.159
boy, you're gonna have some fun
conversations with hot State. But we're gonna

1168
01:13:46.159 --> 01:13:50.279
switch to a audience member here who
has a question for us. If we

1169
01:13:50.359 --> 01:13:54.079
can get that Cameron screen there we
go. Audience member, what's going on?

1170
01:13:54.600 --> 01:14:00.279
H hi on Gabriel now's sorry.
I was wondering was the dumbest so

1171
01:14:00.399 --> 01:14:03.960
on start you did because you're an
atheist, So what's the dumbest thing someone

1172
01:14:04.399 --> 01:14:10.399
has thought we believed? Or yeah
I believe okay, okay, gotcha someone

1173
01:14:11.039 --> 01:14:13.319
And it was in the YouTube comments
of a video, of course, so

1174
01:14:13.479 --> 01:14:15.039
take it with an extremely large grain
of salt. But someone said I was

1175
01:14:15.039 --> 01:14:19.359
afraid of truth, that I was
afraid of knowledge and I was closed minded,

1176
01:14:19.399 --> 01:14:25.079
and I'm like, no, yeah, the best it's not even directly

1177
01:14:25.119 --> 01:14:29.640
related to atheism. But the funniest
thing is I was on somebody's video talking

1178
01:14:29.680 --> 01:14:33.479
about flat earth arguments and somebody said
that I was just a paid NASA shill

1179
01:14:33.960 --> 01:14:38.000
because I believe. I just believe
the Earth is round. That's it.

1180
01:14:38.239 --> 01:14:40.840
Like, not because I got anything
else going on in my life. So

1181
01:14:40.920 --> 01:14:43.920
it's like, that's a lot of
people NASA's pain. That's a big budget.

1182
01:14:44.039 --> 01:14:46.359
Yeah, I'm still wanting to talk
about deficit. I mean, geez,

1183
01:14:46.479 --> 01:14:49.079
that's I don't know, that's to
me the funniest stuff. But yeah,

1184
01:14:49.079 --> 01:14:53.640
you know, you see people have
weird prescriptions and ideas about what we

1185
01:14:53.760 --> 01:14:56.800
believe all the time. Is a
big one, like, yeah, you

1186
01:14:56.880 --> 01:15:00.560
can't be moral. You're not moral
like you you're you were around Lady's not

1187
01:15:00.640 --> 01:15:03.720
objective, so it doesn't matter.
You want to live in sin. I'm

1188
01:15:03.760 --> 01:15:09.680
like, yeah, yeah, I
like gluttony. That's fun. Yeah,

1189
01:15:09.720 --> 01:15:12.840
well that's shame before. I don't
know if everybody shares the same opinion,

1190
01:15:12.840 --> 01:15:16.039
but yeah, there you go.
So yeah, lots of interesting responses from

1191
01:15:16.119 --> 01:15:19.399
people. But we do have some
other folks here. I think we can

1192
01:15:19.479 --> 01:15:27.199
get at least one more call in, so let's see do. Let's talk

1193
01:15:27.199 --> 01:15:30.199
to Harry. Harry, who's calling
in from South Africa. Harry, you

1194
01:15:30.279 --> 01:15:33.479
are live on Talk Heathen. What's
up? Hi? How are you doing

1195
01:15:33.520 --> 01:15:39.319
good? Having an interesting show today? So South Africa again another country.

1196
01:15:39.359 --> 01:15:42.319
I'm not sure I've had the pleasure
of talking to any callers too, So

1197
01:15:42.439 --> 01:15:44.399
welcome to the show, Harry.
How can I help? Thank you?

1198
01:15:45.399 --> 01:15:48.039
I grew up Christian, but I
always thought, no, this does not

1199
01:15:48.279 --> 01:15:55.039
make sense until I watched that scene
called the zig zigat Tis but it was

1200
01:15:55.079 --> 01:16:00.479
talking about Christianity, and then I
converted and became atheist. You became,

1201
01:16:00.319 --> 01:16:05.600
and then okay continue sorry? Yes, what is that was around? The

1202
01:16:05.680 --> 01:16:11.039
age was now what you would call
college university okay, but then yes,

1203
01:16:11.079 --> 01:16:14.640
weenty something happened which made me,
now go back to being at East.

1204
01:16:14.840 --> 01:16:17.920
You know, I don't know what
you know about African spirituality, but we

1205
01:16:18.079 --> 01:16:23.119
believe more in terms of ancestral worship. Sure, have you ever heard of

1206
01:16:24.359 --> 01:16:29.399
ancestral worship where where people speak to
the ancestors? Yeah? Yeah, I

1207
01:16:29.479 --> 01:16:32.600
mean I'm certainly not an expert on
it, but I've definitely seen people talk

1208
01:16:32.640 --> 01:16:36.439
about it and aware of the concept. Yeah. He crops in the areas

1209
01:16:36.439 --> 01:16:40.720
of the world as well here for
sure. So so something happened that made

1210
01:16:40.760 --> 01:16:45.560
you convinced that that was a real
phenomenon or the ring? Okay, So

1211
01:16:45.720 --> 01:16:49.880
what happened that it was my I
always heard about it, but I never

1212
01:16:50.079 --> 01:16:55.800
believed because I was a skeptic.
It was my brother still spectic party.

1213
01:16:56.079 --> 01:16:59.279
So I know the kids that he
grew up with, and I know what

1214
01:16:59.399 --> 01:17:02.359
they're like. You know, in
Africa you get stigma as well, people

1215
01:17:02.439 --> 01:17:09.079
from a bad background an okay background, So this kid, she was acting

1216
01:17:09.239 --> 01:17:14.720
funny. I didn't understand why until
my aunt told me she understands what's happening

1217
01:17:14.880 --> 01:17:19.680
because this best spirit twelve whatever is
overcoming her. And then she just told

1218
01:17:19.720 --> 01:17:25.159
me go and buy smith is a
product called Sniff that people here used to

1219
01:17:25.479 --> 01:17:29.000
communicate his answers. I went and
bought it. She brought the charge to

1220
01:17:29.079 --> 01:17:33.840
the garage and started speaking to the
started speaking to the spirit and the voicing.

1221
01:17:33.920 --> 01:17:38.159
I mean, this key child go
up with my brother. So I

1222
01:17:38.279 --> 01:17:43.239
could recognize the difference. And then
from that day I started researching and then

1223
01:17:43.279 --> 01:17:45.800
I thought, you you know,
I found out, No, this is

1224
01:17:45.119 --> 01:17:50.399
something that in Africa people they don't
even ask questions. Everybody believes. Okay,

1225
01:17:50.479 --> 01:17:54.239
So then just to summarize, that's
what you told me so far here.

1226
01:17:54.680 --> 01:17:58.119
So basically, there was a family
event that was going on and a

1227
01:17:58.279 --> 01:18:02.880
family member of yours you believe possessed
by an ancestor of yours, and you

1228
01:18:02.960 --> 01:18:09.279
believe you were able to communicate with
that ancestor as well as us. I

1229
01:18:09.319 --> 01:18:12.760
couldn't hear exactly what you said,
but some sort of item to sort of

1230
01:18:13.119 --> 01:18:17.399
believe, yeah, some type of
special void. Okay, Yeah, Well

1231
01:18:17.439 --> 01:18:20.680
that's certainly an interesting experience. I
gotta say, I've been hosting for a

1232
01:18:20.760 --> 01:18:26.159
few years now. You're the first
person who's told me about this particular scenario.

1233
01:18:26.600 --> 01:18:31.319
No, I actually have a similar
experience myself, not in the context

1234
01:18:31.359 --> 01:18:39.399
of African belief, but in being
in the presence of someone who was channeling

1235
01:18:39.439 --> 01:18:43.319
an ancestor. It was in the
context of the spiritual healing, where the

1236
01:18:43.800 --> 01:18:47.119
doctor was channeling the spirit of an
older genius, doctor of his past,

1237
01:18:47.239 --> 01:18:51.359
the person who was performing on me. But my question is, how can

1238
01:18:51.439 --> 01:18:56.880
you tell that it wasn't a delusion
or an act? Can you think of

1239
01:18:57.039 --> 01:19:01.159
any other explanations because there are many
creasibly wrote back, I want to get

1240
01:19:01.239 --> 01:19:05.199
to that. I didn't just you
know, convert like immediately. I did

1241
01:19:05.359 --> 01:19:09.840
research, you know, like any
good feast. I wanted to spread this

1242
01:19:10.119 --> 01:19:14.439
eventially camp. When I was there
was another incident. I'm communicate with my

1243
01:19:14.640 --> 01:19:18.439
cousin saying this is real, and
he's a priestie, you know, preaching

1244
01:19:18.680 --> 01:19:23.039
Christianity that only God is real.
And then his brother says to him,

1245
01:19:23.239 --> 01:19:26.319
how could you not believe what he
says? Do you remember? So in

1246
01:19:26.439 --> 01:19:30.760
Soul he got shot eight times,
went to the majority. He says that

1247
01:19:30.840 --> 01:19:33.840
when he was in the machary,
he had a dream that one of his

1248
01:19:34.000 --> 01:19:38.960
ancestors pooked with miss his stick and
said wake up. And today that guy

1249
01:19:39.000 --> 01:19:43.680
woke up from the majority he's walking
around and then but the main prison I'm

1250
01:19:43.680 --> 01:19:45.840
calling, I'm just wanting to say
that I have had a good reason to

1251
01:19:46.000 --> 01:19:50.039
convert, not whether it's real or
not, but everybody here walks around like

1252
01:19:50.159 --> 01:19:56.920
it's really Yeah, I mean,
I only believe that this experience definitely impacted

1253
01:19:57.119 --> 01:20:00.119
your belief and certainly you know,
gave you pause. I would, of

1254
01:20:00.239 --> 01:20:03.800
course push back, and you probably
expect this on whether or not it's a

1255
01:20:04.000 --> 01:20:09.800
good reason right to believe in what
you do. I mean, like the

1256
01:20:09.920 --> 01:20:14.680
thing is what you're describing. Of
course, ancestor possessions and stuff obviously prevalent

1257
01:20:14.760 --> 01:20:18.479
in African culture, is cross cultural
as well. Certainly other cultures around the

1258
01:20:18.520 --> 01:20:21.279
world have something similar to it.
So you may be able to point to

1259
01:20:21.359 --> 01:20:25.479
that and say, well, so
many people have these kinds of experiences,

1260
01:20:25.680 --> 01:20:28.439
there must be something there to it. But kind of like if you're listening

1261
01:20:28.520 --> 01:20:31.239
earlier to a call that we had, it can also point to humans having

1262
01:20:31.319 --> 01:20:36.399
the same sorts of biases and the
same sorts of you know, fallatial thinking,

1263
01:20:38.199 --> 01:20:44.079
fallacical thinking, right about what we
consider to be but yeah, yeah,

1264
01:20:44.239 --> 01:20:45.880
I mean, like the thing about
ancestor worship, right, is that

1265
01:20:46.000 --> 01:20:50.439
the mechanisms by which we can sort
of do that are very dubious to me

1266
01:20:50.640 --> 01:20:56.760
in some parts as someone who believes
all we are our physical beings, right,

1267
01:20:57.319 --> 01:21:00.560
I don't know what it means if
a spirit is argue, what what

1268
01:21:00.720 --> 01:21:02.560
is it? I don't know,
you know, like I don't know what

1269
01:21:02.680 --> 01:21:06.439
I don't know. Are they coming
from the pure world every time and played

1270
01:21:08.920 --> 01:21:13.079
the spiritual play? I don't know. If you have researchers who can look

1271
01:21:13.199 --> 01:21:16.760
up you know the history of vaccines
in America. Vaccines in America? Yeah,

1272
01:21:17.760 --> 01:21:21.680
yes, because the way that I
was told with my research is um,

1273
01:21:23.079 --> 01:21:27.359
you know, the older slave owners
wonder, why aren't you Africans dying?

1274
01:21:27.720 --> 01:21:31.159
And then the African lady said no, ancestors told us to take the

1275
01:21:31.239 --> 01:21:34.720
bit of the disease cut to herself. And then you rather it the something

1276
01:21:34.800 --> 01:21:39.319
which is common even today in Africa. My dad has discussed, you know,

1277
01:21:39.439 --> 01:21:44.279
we never died from what is this
the one ricketts? I mean this

1278
01:21:44.359 --> 01:21:48.520
is something malaria? Like we knew
what to do everything we know the COVID

1279
01:21:48.840 --> 01:21:53.920
You understand when it starts offering predict
your productions, you know what I mean?

1280
01:21:54.079 --> 01:21:59.319
Like if we're I'm doing the ancestral
peoples had insights and kind of like

1281
01:21:59.640 --> 01:22:02.279
through through their efforts, came up
with these excellent solutions that have now been

1282
01:22:02.319 --> 01:22:05.239
refined over the time. Yeah,
inoculation and all that kind of stuff in

1283
01:22:05.279 --> 01:22:10.359
canaparks. It's fantastic. But when
you saw your ancestors told you they probably

1284
01:22:10.399 --> 01:22:13.399
told each other while they were still
alive. They didn't, do you believe

1285
01:22:13.439 --> 01:22:16.680
that they only they withheld this knowledge
to pass on until after they died,

1286
01:22:16.760 --> 01:22:20.760
and only did it through dreams or
or spiritual interaction or was it just several

1287
01:22:20.840 --> 01:22:26.319
generations ago it was passed between families
and people. Maybe, but I don't

1288
01:22:26.359 --> 01:22:30.439
know. Well, maybe the problem
with stories like that, Yeah, I

1289
01:22:30.479 --> 01:22:32.159
mean, you know the problem with
stories like this one, Harry, is

1290
01:22:32.199 --> 01:22:36.079
that I can't be with you at
that family event and be there, be

1291
01:22:36.159 --> 01:22:40.359
your witness to that, and say, hey, this happened the way exactly

1292
01:22:40.399 --> 01:22:43.800
you're describing. You know, I'm
hearing this, you know, secondhand from

1293
01:22:43.840 --> 01:22:45.600
yourself, right, So it's hard
for me too. I can never tell

1294
01:22:45.640 --> 01:22:49.279
you exactly what happened in that event
because I simply don't know. But I

1295
01:22:49.359 --> 01:22:55.439
can give you possible alternatives. Something
I'm sure that you've heard before but once

1296
01:22:55.479 --> 01:23:00.039
that you have to really deeply consider
in order to understand what it is that

1297
01:23:00.119 --> 01:23:04.960
we're talking about here, right,
because like if ancestor worship and ancestors were

1298
01:23:05.000 --> 01:23:09.840
able to possess people's bodies, I
mean, that really has to change our

1299
01:23:09.920 --> 01:23:12.600
understanding of the world, right,
Like, if that was true, then

1300
01:23:12.680 --> 01:23:15.960
certainly other things about the world have
to be true. And like, I

1301
01:23:15.039 --> 01:23:19.560
don't know if my world view can
really allow for that. And infortunately,

1302
01:23:20.359 --> 01:23:25.439
anytime anything like that has been investigated, it's either found to have had a

1303
01:23:25.600 --> 01:23:30.640
completely normal explanation. Natural explanation has
been found to be a sham. Yeah,

1304
01:23:30.960 --> 01:23:32.600
yeah, I mean natural has never
been proven. We've we live in

1305
01:23:32.640 --> 01:23:40.319
a world where I go ahead because
I mean here Africa, they're actually medical

1306
01:23:40.479 --> 01:23:44.319
bodies. Wait, it's an institution, and they also have spirituality to wait.

1307
01:23:44.359 --> 01:23:46.640
It's an institution where they wait side
by side. I mean, could

1308
01:23:46.640 --> 01:23:49.319
they be doing that for nothing?
I don't know they is there to be

1309
01:23:49.439 --> 01:23:54.880
something well, you know a lot
of health institutions do work with the background

1310
01:23:54.960 --> 01:23:58.039
beliefs of their environment, right Like
if you go into the United States,

1311
01:23:58.119 --> 01:24:00.680
for example, it's very common at
when you're filling out forms, they ask

1312
01:24:00.720 --> 01:24:03.680
you what your religion is, and
that's not so that they're going to perform

1313
01:24:03.960 --> 01:24:06.760
some sort of ritual that's specific to
your religion. But there may be things

1314
01:24:06.840 --> 01:24:11.439
that they have to avoid or things
they want to be accommodating for because it

1315
01:24:11.520 --> 01:24:15.159
gives them better access to quality healthcare. The vast majority of hospitals in this

1316
01:24:15.239 --> 01:24:18.319
country were built by religious organizations,
names like Saint David's and St. Luke's

1317
01:24:18.359 --> 01:24:21.479
and St. Joseph's. You know. Yeah, but again like on that

1318
01:24:21.640 --> 01:24:25.800
point, right that that's almost an
argument of from authority, right, like

1319
01:24:25.920 --> 01:24:29.560
we if the supernatural is real and
if people are being possessed, I want

1320
01:24:29.600 --> 01:24:32.039
to see I want to be able
to talk to that person for firstally,

1321
01:24:32.119 --> 01:24:36.479
but also like I need to see
that outside sources are able to really verify

1322
01:24:36.680 --> 01:24:40.479
this, And I don't know that'd
be a tough one. I mean,

1323
01:24:40.479 --> 01:24:44.479
I guess would have to be things
that an ancestor could tell you that nobody

1324
01:24:44.520 --> 01:24:48.560
else could. But even then that's
very horrid. Like I want to be

1325
01:24:48.640 --> 01:24:53.720
the guy the first person who has
ever shown how to generate electricity, thinking

1326
01:24:53.760 --> 01:24:56.319
it was the purview of God's before. Then I want to be that going,

1327
01:24:56.520 --> 01:24:58.159
yeah, we can, we can
do it. You know that.

1328
01:24:58.399 --> 01:25:03.119
I wan a lot of talk.
Even it has experience because it helps,

1329
01:25:03.199 --> 01:25:06.239
you know, send on Christians because
we have a lot of them here,

1330
01:25:06.359 --> 01:25:11.479
you know, I mean they're banning
which is and all sorts of horrible atrocities.

1331
01:25:11.640 --> 01:25:14.800
Sure, yeah, but I just
want to say, yeah, if

1332
01:25:15.159 --> 01:25:18.279
because I recently now have socialized,
we said, a lot of these people

1333
01:25:18.560 --> 01:25:23.399
when they're next to each other,
they ask ritual antenna or whatever. They

1334
01:25:23.520 --> 01:25:27.239
go off like literally they can't be
in the same room. I don't know.

1335
01:25:27.279 --> 01:25:30.199
I just wonder what would happen if
we would put people like that on

1336
01:25:30.399 --> 01:25:34.880
emma ice scans and put them next
to each other. I wonder what that

1337
01:25:34.960 --> 01:25:39.039
would be, would we I wonder
what that would be too interesting? That

1338
01:25:39.119 --> 01:25:43.199
would be an interesting thing to study
and to look at um. But yeah,

1339
01:25:43.319 --> 01:25:45.880
I don't know. It's one of
those things right where it's like you

1340
01:25:45.039 --> 01:25:47.680
have to you know, a skeptics. We want to be able to build

1341
01:25:47.760 --> 01:25:51.560
cases of verifiability, right. We
want to be able to see where we

1342
01:25:51.640 --> 01:25:55.680
can check but whether it believe it's
true or not. And the thing about

1343
01:25:55.920 --> 01:26:00.479
possessions stuff like this is there are
a lot of ethics that are common applicated

1344
01:26:00.600 --> 01:26:04.479
in a situation like this, whereas
a study like that could I wouldn't pass

1345
01:26:04.520 --> 01:26:08.640
a lot of I would want to
work more like a passenger. Sure,

1346
01:26:08.880 --> 01:26:12.119
sure, um yeah I would.
Yes, I would not use the web

1347
01:26:12.239 --> 01:26:15.920
possessing. I would lose that.
It's like a passenger, use spiritual that

1348
01:26:15.079 --> 01:26:18.520
they speak to you. If,
for example, I have a problem and

1349
01:26:18.720 --> 01:26:21.960
any day Hell, I would go
to the person. The person through their

1350
01:26:23.199 --> 01:26:28.079
spiritual passenger would be able to communicate
with my ancestors. Harry, if you

1351
01:26:28.199 --> 01:26:31.720
can get my ancestors some people to
possess me and then talk on this show,

1352
01:26:32.000 --> 01:26:34.680
that would be pretty cool. Cool. I mean that's not yeah,

1353
01:26:35.000 --> 01:26:39.439
he's saying, how would I mean? They do that every day? You

1354
01:26:39.520 --> 01:26:42.960
know, if you are in South
Africa, especially South Africa, on radio

1355
01:26:43.039 --> 01:26:45.479
stations, people calling and speak to
their answers as every day. It's a

1356
01:26:45.800 --> 01:26:49.720
it's a normal thing that happens every
day. People call, they please let

1357
01:26:50.439 --> 01:26:54.359
my answers that I'm having problems,
and then they call they talk. I

1358
01:26:54.439 --> 01:26:58.319
don't know, maybe all the radio
stations are speaking. It's maybe I'm putting

1359
01:26:58.399 --> 01:27:00.960
millions and millions of buildings this very
day. All around the world, there

1360
01:27:01.000 --> 01:27:05.239
are people eating crackers and thinking it's
becoming Jesus. Yeah. I mean there's

1361
01:27:05.279 --> 01:27:10.039
that too. I mean there's there's
psychics all over the place, right,

1362
01:27:10.239 --> 01:27:14.680
There's Pentecostals that go to church every
Sunday and think that the Holy Spirit is

1363
01:27:14.720 --> 01:27:17.439
talking to them. I mean these
kinds of um, I mean, I

1364
01:27:17.479 --> 01:27:23.239
would say delusions, right, are
pretty common. But they also have various

1365
01:27:23.640 --> 01:27:26.439
explanations as to what's actually happening.
Like some people say, oh, it's

1366
01:27:26.479 --> 01:27:29.880
demons, some people say it's your
ancestors. I mean, it's just I'm

1367
01:27:29.920 --> 01:27:31.960
not saying it didn't happen. We're
just saying that we're not compelled by the

1368
01:27:32.039 --> 01:27:36.640
evidence. And yeah, and unfortunately
testimony is weak. Yeah right, I

1369
01:27:36.680 --> 01:27:41.399
mean there's a lot, I mean, everything I know about African spirituality and

1370
01:27:41.640 --> 01:27:45.199
what happens there, first of all
wild stuff going on, but also in

1371
01:27:45.359 --> 01:27:49.319
combination with evangelism there, specifically in
Christianity. I mean you're seeing a lot

1372
01:27:49.359 --> 01:27:54.039
of that happen in Christianity too in
Africa. I mean, how many videos

1373
01:27:54.079 --> 01:27:58.600
have come out to apologize on half
of my anstices for setting all that crap

1374
01:27:58.720 --> 01:28:03.159
up by invading and stealing country.
My ancestors probably had something I might not

1375
01:28:03.359 --> 01:28:09.560
want to talk to. We might
not have that much in common. They

1376
01:28:09.680 --> 01:28:12.560
might not like what I'm doing here. But anyway, look, Harry,

1377
01:28:12.560 --> 01:28:14.640
I'm sorry. We do have to
let you go because we are at a

1378
01:28:14.680 --> 01:28:17.800
time. That's one for today's show, real quickly, you got twenty seconds.

1379
01:28:18.279 --> 01:28:20.960
Yeah, one more question the point
or do you know the coincon people

1380
01:28:21.039 --> 01:28:27.239
to send people the bushman he made
these sianide poison that it took I don't

1381
01:28:27.239 --> 01:28:29.600
know the gemens how long When they
asked, how did you know? This

1382
01:28:29.680 --> 01:28:31.359
is our answer to has told us. I don't know. It's just too

1383
01:28:31.439 --> 01:28:34.720
many stuff to be a cool coincident. I don't know that that would be

1384
01:28:34.800 --> 01:28:38.319
news to me. I mean,
like again, like that could be a

1385
01:28:38.399 --> 01:28:41.640
cultural understanding. I mean, how
many people I can't tell you how many

1386
01:28:41.680 --> 01:28:44.000
people have talked to you, Harry
on the phone that said God has told

1387
01:28:44.039 --> 01:28:46.000
them something? You know, like
like yeah, I mean maybe, but

1388
01:28:46.119 --> 01:28:50.399
also maybe you think God told you
and they didn't. I mean, it's

1389
01:28:50.399 --> 01:28:53.680
just hard to verify. But really, we do have to let you go

1390
01:28:53.760 --> 01:28:58.000
because we are out of time.
Thank you for calling in and talking about

1391
01:28:58.119 --> 01:29:01.239
that. Yeah interesting tossing, Yeah, yeah, I would again, if

1392
01:29:01.560 --> 01:29:05.000
if you start acting like you're possessed
by your ancestors on this show. That

1393
01:29:05.119 --> 01:29:08.840
would move the needle for me.
I don't know if I go all the

1394
01:29:08.880 --> 01:29:12.359
way, but I mean fair enough. But if I start speaking in tongues

1395
01:29:12.439 --> 01:29:17.000
and think I would help you cool
enough to priests? Yeah maybe yeah.

1396
01:29:17.000 --> 01:29:19.920
We're not calling any priests around here. We don't make out going calls.

1397
01:29:20.159 --> 01:29:23.680
This is a call in show,
not a call out the show, so

1398
01:29:24.119 --> 01:29:26.640
you'd be out of like there.
But we do need to wrap things up

1399
01:29:26.680 --> 01:29:30.199
just to remind you guys, um
give an answer to our question this week

1400
01:29:30.359 --> 01:29:34.479
or talk heathen to me segmentum,
and the one for this week is what

1401
01:29:34.640 --> 01:29:39.760
is it? It's what is What
is a little known reason God sends people

1402
01:29:39.840 --> 01:29:42.199
to hell? That is the question
that we have. So we'd love to

1403
01:29:42.279 --> 01:29:45.640
hear your answers on this. I
want to reiterate a couple different ways to

1404
01:29:45.680 --> 01:29:50.720
support the show. Please like,
subscribe hit bell and also consider becoming a

1405
01:29:50.840 --> 01:29:56.439
member or contributing to our Patreon.
Any way you can help us is wonderful.

1406
01:29:56.720 --> 01:30:00.279
Um if we have the Facebook group
as well that you can look and

1407
01:30:00.680 --> 01:30:04.800
after the show, there is a
fan run discord server that sometimes talks to

1408
01:30:04.880 --> 01:30:10.239
hosts. Not today, but also
that happens as well that you should check

1409
01:30:10.239 --> 01:30:14.520
out links to that in the description
and lastly just to read it as well.

1410
01:30:14.640 --> 01:30:16.600
There are audio versions of this show
that you can find if you don't

1411
01:30:16.640 --> 01:30:21.720
like watching the video. And the
next show on the docket today is the

1412
01:30:21.840 --> 01:30:26.319
nonprofit so stick around and watch that
if you want to see what's going on.

1413
01:30:26.640 --> 01:30:30.640
I want to give a big hand
here to Jamie for having his first

1414
01:30:30.039 --> 01:30:36.000
first real time hosting today. He
did a wonderful job. I did all

1415
01:30:36.079 --> 01:30:40.680
that may become a man who does
more his name. Yeah yeah. And

1416
01:30:41.479 --> 01:30:44.600
also I want to give a special
shout out to the audience today for joining

1417
01:30:44.680 --> 01:30:45.960
us. Thank you. We'll give
a hand to you. Thank you guys

1418
01:30:46.000 --> 01:30:50.680
so much for being here and supporting
the show today. It's been really fun

1419
01:30:50.800 --> 01:30:55.960
being back in since COVID and I'm
glad we're able to do this at least

1420
01:30:56.039 --> 01:30:59.520
once a month, so consider coming
by next month and hanging out with us.

1421
01:31:00.159 --> 01:31:01.960
And of course, last but never
least, we have to thank the

1422
01:31:02.159 --> 01:31:06.279
wonderful, fantastic, amazing Stupend his
crew that helped make this show happen.

1423
01:31:06.359 --> 01:31:12.359
Give it round to a boss for
the crew to work behind the scenes and

1424
01:31:12.560 --> 01:31:15.640
work very hard making sure that we
are still on the air, even though

1425
01:31:15.720 --> 01:31:20.640
we constantly make efforts to make sure
that we stop being on there for all

1426
01:31:20.760 --> 01:31:26.159
kinds of reasons. But we also
have to give our love rings. And

1427
01:31:26.279 --> 01:31:29.039
Jimmy, I'm gonna let you start
the love rings here. Can you get

1428
01:31:29.079 --> 01:31:31.039
it out there? Let's see oop
there we go. Always a little bit

1429
01:31:31.079 --> 01:31:35.680
delay the love rings. Well first
time, No, no, it's not

1430
01:31:35.800 --> 01:31:42.880
you. It's the electromagnetic interference between
the rings within us that communicate with the

1431
01:31:42.960 --> 01:31:46.880
equipment. There's a bit of a
delay. It's student quantum fluctuations stuff.

1432
01:31:46.920 --> 01:31:49.159
There's a lot a lot going on
there. I'm not an expert on the

1433
01:31:49.239 --> 01:31:51.840
science, but you know there's something
going on this. So love rings to

1434
01:31:51.920 --> 01:31:55.720
all of you who are watching this
show. Thank you. Whether or not

1435
01:31:55.840 --> 01:31:58.399
you believe you, if you are
an essential worker, we of course want

1436
01:31:58.439 --> 01:32:01.000
to thank you. And if you
don't believe, this is your community.

1437
01:32:01.399 --> 01:32:04.520
And if you do believe, we
don't hate you, just not convinced.

1438
01:32:04.600 --> 01:32:08.439
Thanks again, everybody, this has
been talk ethan. I'm objectively dad,

1439
01:32:08.600 --> 01:32:11.960
this is the blind blind me Jamie, and we are signing off. Have

1440
01:32:12.039 --> 01:32:53.000
a good Sunday. We want the
truth, so watch Truth Wanted live Friday

1441
01:32:53.119 --> 01:32:58.439
at seven pm Central. Visit tiny
dot cc slash y t tw and call

1442
01:32:58.520 --> 01:33:01.920
into the show at five one two
nine nine one nine two four two,

1443
01:33:02.199 --> 01:33:08.079
or connect to the show online at
tiny dot cc slash call tw