What is krak Alakin Hardwood Knocks listeners, I am Damp Valley coming at you
without my fantabulous co host Adam frommel also breaking a cardinal rule I have to
never publish a podcast on the middle of a Friday. However, you all
might be waiting for our second installment of trade targets for every team. We've
already done the East. Coach, I got that pod. We have the
West up. Due to what I thought was better programming schedule, I was
able to talk with Caitlyn Cooper from Indie corn Rows about the Indiana Pacers.
If you listen to this podcast or follow basketball at large, you know who
Caitlin is at C two underscore Cooper on Twitter. She's great, does such
a good job breaking down all things Pacers the way that she's able to write,
And I've told her this, I've told a bunch of people I think
I've mentioned on this podcast too. So good at writing and making very in
depth, granular details, sometimes complex details about the game accessible to everyone,
including morons myself, So that's a pretty big deal. I had the opportunity
to have her on to talk about all this stuff that's going on with the
Pacers, what's happened so far where this team could be headed. They have
a few days off as if we recorded this, but and rather than holding
it until Monday, this team has been too much of a unpredictable entity.
Might be the west best way to put it that. I didn't want it
to blow up somehow, so we're just gonna put it out on the Friday
afternoon. We'll delay the tradespod that we have in the clip, that'll come
out on Monday or Tuesday, and then you'll get a mailbag before the Christmas
Games. Not sure if anyone was that concerned about our programming schedule, but
we know everyone loves to talk about fake trades. You just want to give
you an update. At that I get into a lot with Caitlyn Cooper.
You're going to enjoy the conversation again. She is emong, if not the
absolute best in the business. Our very few housekeeping notes before we can and
ball in here Beyond the programming schedule, follow us on Twitter at Hardwood Knox.
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as I always say, among the I would say, only modestly insufferable
national NBA podcasts. That is enough out of me talking at full speed and
a half and rambling. Let's get to some Indiana Pacers. Talk with the
world famous, the one and only Caitlyn Cooper. Caitlin, welcome back to
the Hardwoo Knox podcast. Thank you so much. Are coming on within a
shorter span of time than you normally would have. I try and leave like
a healthy gap between team look aheads and if we're going to do a mid
season check in, but the Pacers have demanded it. Most importantly though,
first and foremost, how are you doing? I'm doing well. I'm always
happy to get an invite back to this particular podcast. You've had me on
so many times, so I'm always grateful and willing to come back on.
And yeah, I mean the Pacers have kind of forced our hands here.
I think we have to talk about them. The report that first one from
the athletic what is just what were your impressions of it, the timing behind
it, and I think, my you know, I guess a week and
a half or moved or whatever it is. Do you actually buy into the
idea that this team would consider the nuclear tear down, given how out of
character it would be? Right, So the initial timing didn't exactly surprise me
because of everything that went wrong in that game when they lost to Miami.
I mean, they were having I wouldn't necessarily term it as in fighting,
but there was clear frustration on the court. The arena was empty, you
could hear people. It seemed like a pin could drow and at the same
time, the fans that were there were booing the product. The effort level
was not good, the process against the zone was not good. So it
didn't exactly surprise me. I mean that or that game alone enforced my hand
to write about, you know, what had been going wrong for them in
close games and other stuff, and me feeling like they didn't really have an
identity. So it didn't really surprise me that the report itself came out.
But the actual report with the word rebuilding was surprising to me because, as
you say, that's not really synonymous with what people think of the way that
the Pacers operate. But also there had been reports over the summer that Kevin
Pritchard had been at least pondering the possibility of doing that and that he had
gotten pushed back from ownership. So to me, if that's something that you
were going to do, you probably would have done it then, like even
maybe before you hired Carlisle or before you drafted Chris Duarte as more of like
this win now ready to go prospect, So that aspect of it, But
then when you got into the article, I mean, that was kind of
the quibble that I had. It didn't exactly sound like that was the intention
even in the reporting. I mean, it was saying rebuild on the go.
It wasn't saying that they were going to be into you know, like
this wasn't going to be a sam Hinky thing, I guess is what we
should be saying, or what the thunder are currently doing anyways, So I
think probably some of it got, you know, down the road a little
bit further than what the reporting even indicated. But now Herb Simon's done subsequent
interviews and it doesn't sound like he at all wants anybody to think that he's
going to be on the path of tanking, because it's not something that he
wants to watch. That got quite a bit of outrage and pushback from people
around Indiana. I was a little bit you know more, I guess I
should say I did have quite the same reaction as other people did. I
think it was kind of out of touch for him to use the words like,
oh, I love our little team and then pretending as though Indiana is
going to attract top tier free agents. Feels a little bit tone deaf,
but at the same time like he was kind of coming with the same approach
that Rick Carlisle has like, we like our team, but trades can always
happen, and to me, that's what front they need to be putting out
right now maintain leverage. But also you don't need to be downplaying the talent
that you have in your locker room. So I'm not under the impression that
Herb Simon's going to block Kevin Pritchards were making moves. I think that they're
still going to be scanning the market and trying to see if there's ways that
they can get this team better now or in the future, because I mean,
Herb Simon even said and one of the quotes somewhere along the line like
we're not going to go out and intentionally lose games or you know, that's
just not the way I want to do it. Now. We might lose
games if we're trying to get opportunities for rookies, but it's not going to
be something we intentionally do. So I'm still not under the impression that they're
satisfied with the way things are, but I do know that there were other
people that interpreted it more that way. I found it odd the way it
was framed too, where I think one of the lines was just like at
eighty seven. Herb Simon is more open to a rebuild, which just doesn't
make any sense to me. What's at eighty seven? Like why like we
want to be around, like to see the end of this rebuild. It
Also, this isn't scientific, and Christy Arntey was clearly the right pick,
but like you drafted an older rookie, you hired Rick Carlisle, this team
don't feel like it's built to make moves, maybe a consolidation move, but
it doesn't really seem like it's built or that its thought process even in the
off season, was the prospect of a tear down was on the table,
right? I mean, And even if you just think along those particular lines
and they say that, you know, Keras or Sabonis or Miles or maybe
both of them are available. You know, Golden State has been one of
the teams that's been mentioned. And I brought this up on our podcast that
it's like, okay, if you're going the full rebuild route, which it
doesn't sound to me at all that they are. But if you were,
the decision between Turner and Sabonis would merely just be about asset evaluation in which
one of them is going to net you the most in return, So you're
gonna like trade one of them to Golden State for young prospects that you yourself
didn't just draft when you could have Like that just seems a little bit counterintuitive
to me. I mean, they literally could have drafted Moses Moody. They
passed on him to take Chris Duarte because they liked his ability to be plug
and play and that he fit the way Rick Carlisle wanted to play. Now,
I'm not necessarily saying it would be a bad thing to have both of
those types of players, but it just seems counterintuitive based on what their summer
planning was. Miles Turner had the interesting interview with the ft Letic and Kevin.
Kevin Pritchard was on the record for that one too, and I think
his comments about them not having a star was he was rightfully dragged for it,
but he did at least try and clarify it on Twitter. I'm more
curious about what you made about Turner's comments, and you've mentioned it role clarity,
and you've talked about on past podcast we've done about other stuff that he
can do aside from shoot, and then you've mentioned a few times this year
on Twitter and stuff, he wrote like he has the one dribble like escape
three in his arsenal now, and so he's clearly a better player. But
do you buy into that he won deserves a bigger role or needs a more
clarified role, or is he even the type of guy that's capable of shouldering
more than he's doing at the moment. I mean, in general, I'm
a little bit confused by exactly what he was getting at in that article.
I know he said after the fact that like, this isn't about touches or
play calling, it's about role clarity. And I've talked to my teammates,
and I've talked to Kevin Pritchard and Carlisle about it. To me, it's
kind of like, well, then, why did you need to say it
publicly if you had already talked to the people who control it. But I
think what my interpretation of what he wants is he wants to do more of
the Sabonis stuff when both of them are on the court, or at least
have the opportunity too, and that he wants to be involved more as the
screen or a show that he can do more different things. And it's funny
because when you look back at that game against the Knicks before the night before
that article came out, I tweeted during the game that I felt that there
was very much like an intention behind how that game started. Like they ran
the very first play of the game for him, and it was a different
play than they've been running all season. They were getting him more ball screens.
It seemed like they had shifted some of his minutes just a smidge to
get him more at solo five and we're having involved in way more screens than
what they had in the past. So it was clear to me that they
were trying to accommodate it to an extent. For me, when I look
at Miles and Sabonis, especially in the minutes when they're on the floor together,
I already feel like Sabonis probably isn't doing quite enough of the Sabonis stuff.
So it filled it to Miles. There needs to be a clear reason
why you're doing it. Like I'm not opposed to him being involved as the
screener, but it's like, who's defending him? What reason are you doing
it? If you are going to be looking at him on the interior,
is there a clear advantage there because there are some games where he can do
this, Like last night against the Pistons, he posted up guard and right
in front of the basket, sealed turned and got an and one I believe
the night before in Milwaukee he posted up Drew Holiday and got completely stone walled
and the ball was stripped and then it's kind of like, you know,
why am I watching this? So it was kind of interesting last night the
very first play of the game, again they ran a wedge set for him
to slide down to the block, but she got bumped off his route and
then they turned it into like motion strong. But it's kind of funny because
I had brought that up like two weeks ago that like all those wedge sets
that Nap Yorker used to run with, you know, Doug McDermott screening at
the elbow for sabonus to slide to the block are gone. Like, they
don't do a lot of contained ways to get him post ups. It's more
just organic, you know, duck ends. And then to see them do
that on the first play of the game tells me that they're at least,
you know, trying to get him involved, maybe earlier, so that maybe
he's a little bit more engaged as the game goes on. But I've kind
of always envisioned him, and I was happy with what progress he's made because
I see him as a six foot eleven shooting guard. I see him as
a guy who's really improved at finding cuts, finding spots in that sort of
way. His three point shot is falling in a better clip what I said
about you know, if somebody hard closes out at him, he can still
escape from that. Also getting better at putting the ball on the floor a
little bit. I think he's better off playing outside of the action, especially
with the current iteration of the roster. Now, if he got traded to
a different team or he was just at the five, maybe with more reps
he would improve at some of those things. I don't think he's super fluid
on the role. It sounds like he wants to be doing more of that,
and it looks to me that they've tried to adjust his footwork a smidge
so that he's using a hop step and he can release a little bit better
like what you see Sabonis do. That's a little bit more fluid. Maybe
that comes with time, but I think that that's affected some of the contact
that he's making on some of the picks, so he's gonna have to find
a happy middle there. But there's just not as many options from a mile
screen in general as there is from Sabonis. You're not getting the same degree
of playmaker. He doesn't get defended in the same way. So that's another
element of it too. If Miles is improved to the degree that he thinks
he has and then teams do start defending him with more people, so it
isn't just a two on two or you know, he does start doing more
against a switch than what comes next. I think it makes sense for him
to be, you know, especially if he was on a better team,
to continue in this role where he's kind of low usage, high efficiency.
I think that makes sense. But I also agreed with Rick Carlisle's quote in
that article. They're running a far more read and react offense than even the
beginning of the year. There's places that he could him be involving himself.
I don't think that any of his coaches have said, you know, we
just want you to hide in the corner. You just go and stand there.
You're not allowed to leave, You're not allowed to find other spots to
assert yourself within the offense. I just really quibble with that. But you
know, if that's the way he's felt and they're willing to help him find
different ways to assert himself, I don't have a problem with that. He
has, you know, his efficiency has been better this year, but I
think that there needs to be a two way street there, and some of
the accountability falls with him as well. And it's also just kind of tough
where, let's say, if he even did deserve it, the idea of
having him do more of the Sabonus stuff during the minute in which he's on
the court with Sabonus just doesn't track at all because Sabonus is so much better
at the Sabonus stuff. Well yeah, and like I said, I mean,
some of that's even been deluded. And the funny thing is is,
I mean I wrote this article in preseason only in the reverse why is Sabonis
standing in the corner? Because it was happening so much in the first few
preseason games. I'm like, you know, something is at work here,
and it felt like they were trying to evaluate how much can both of these
guys do, how interchangeable can they be can we play sabonus off ball?
Will he be able to hit those shots, you know, in the shorter
corner. And also can Miles be running more out of delay? Can he
be doing more of this handoff stuff. Can we have him at the elbows?
Can we have him more at the screener? And I thought the results
of that were pretty mixed. It didn't make a whole lot of sense to
me. And then shortly into the season they kind of went away from it.
But you know, even his one quote where he kind of talked about,
you know, I had the forty point game against the Wizards, like,
you know, that was incredible. Obviously, everything that you wanted him
to do he did. If he was open, he shot the ball.
He didn't hesitate, and that's been a problem over the last several years where
there were times or he might record scratch out of a three, or if
somebody smaller pre rotated or rotated over and he passed out of those shots,
he wasn't doing it. He was confidently looking for his own offense. That's
what you want him to do. But then he was kind of like,
well then the next game, it was just status quo again. I'm like,
well, I don't know that I would say that. I think that
you went from not being guarded against the Wizards to the Miami he actually guarding
you. And then you know o'she bor set stayed on the floor and they
were not running plays and getting touches for O'Shea bor sett like he was just
playing on the periphery of Spain pick and rolls for the majority of the game,
he was just making shots. So I don't really see how their roles
were like dramatically different there that warranted you know, why O'Shea stayed on the
court and Miles didn't because he didn't have the same flow. But I'm clearly
not him. I don't know exactly what he wants, but I found some
of it pretty confusing personally. Do you think that that either exploration of trying
to fit in turn or more just explore the rest of the offense is like
accounting for how differently they're using Sabonis or what I guess I should say less
they're using sabonus, Like what has been your read on that? Because I
think is his playing time isn't down a ton compared to last year, and
he was going to that Pistons game, averaging more than ten fewer touches in
the front court per game, which just seems like compared to the I think
he's playing less than two minutes less per game compared to last season. That
just seems like way too stark for someone who's been such a driving force for
that offense and for that team for so long now. I mean, I
think it's a lot of confounding factors there. I think in preseason it was
somewhat wanting to see the Miles stuff. I mean, Miless touches are basically
the same as the last two years, so I don't think it's necessarily like
taking you know, from here and putting it there directly. I think it
was more an overall systematic stylistic preference that I mean, I don't really think
Sabonis was ever this heliocentric option that he gets billed as, but I think
it was we're going to de emphasize that because we want to play more together,
we want to have this more egalitarian approach where more people can you know,
dribble, pass and shoot, and that you know, wasn't necessarily working
out to the best way, especially late in games or I think that they
probably could have been playing through him a little bit more. I think some
of it, too, is just the guards. I mean, I don't
think it all falls on the coaching staff. I think there's times where,
you know, late when defensive coverages change, you need to be able to
pass out of a trap or you know, get the ball to the spots
and the floor that are the most obvious, and sometimes they just flat out
don't do that. So that has impacted as touches. But I do think
over this, like last little stretch here, since that heat game happens,
his elbow touches and his post ups are up. Like last night when they
played the Pistons, which you know, the Pistons have obviously lost thirteen straight
games. Take this for what you will, but the last team that the
Pistons beat was also the Pacers, and if you watch that game back in
the fourth quarter, the Pacers scored ten points over the final ten minutes.
The Pistons were blitzing the heck out of them, and they weren't getting the
ball to where it needed to be, which is a common trend over these
fourth quarters in close games. Last night, it was evident, you know,
and Lloyd Pierce is obviously filling in for Rick Carlisle, so maybe that
would have been a slightly different approach. But they posted sa bonus by my
raw account seven times, like on the night they posted him nine. He's
not even averaging anywhere close to that for the season. So the fact that
they were willing to play inside out and get and find out, oh hey,
you know, post gravity can have some value. We can actually get
open threes, and we can get layups and cuts, and he can get
some shots. Like I think that there is value through playing inside out and
getting more paint touch threes, whether that's a bonus in the post or it's
the guards actually getting into the paint rather than doing some of the like more
dinking around the perimeter that they've done in some of these late game situations.
But I think the answer the long question is that some of it has been
stylistic and wanting to have a reduction and some of playing through him in the
post and in other interior situations. I think early some of it was wanting
to explore or what Miles could do, and I do think some of it
just lands with the guards since let's say the Pacers have been uncharacteristically thrown into
the national discourse, at least on a level where they're not usually in.
There has there been like a biggest misconception about Sabonus that you've noticed as people
either talk about his value to the pacers or if they're framing it in sort
of a trademarked type of way. Well, I mean, yeah, I
think somewhat with both of the bigs, because I think that they both even
even locally, they both get looked at such monoliths that all that they do
is at you know, the polar opposite end of the floor. And I
think it's been pretty obvious early on that they've each improved, at least in
small ways at the end of the floor that they're not necessarily known for the
bonus. Like last year, maybe Orker tried on occasion to hedge with him
and it was a disaster, like you could not do it. And this
year they're doing that pretty regularly to keep more of the action away from the
rim, because you obviously don't want him to be having everything funneled at him
like Nate Bjorker was doing for the majority of last year. With their overly
aggressive defense on the perimeter. I think he's held up with that pretty well.
I mean the other night against the Bucks, they were getting split pretty
often, but their defense overall just wasn't very good. Drew Holiday was really
ripping them up. But he's done that. I think that his straight ups
around the rim, what he's done in transition has been better his overall.
I think his rim numbers are probably somewhat comparable to last year, though they
are on lower volume. But I think that he's just he's having more impact
on the ball when he's in picker and roll situations than what you would have
seen last year. So and just having him a lot of times he has
to defend pretty tough matchups and some of that they've had to get you know,
creative with when they guard the Sixers, like they eventually had to move
him off to buy his Harris and put him on Danny Green and George and
Yang. But there's been other games where he's had really nice possessions, whether
it was down the stretch against Karl Anthony Towns the game that they beat the
Miami Heat, I think his defense was pretty wides out that entire game,
And same with Miles, Like you can point at things that offensively he has
gotten better at, and it's felt like some of the national discourse has been
like just looking at them as one way players, and I don't think that's
entirely fair. But also like the idea that they're building around the wrong big
like oh, they need to stop building around Sabonus and build around Miles,
like they're not building this roster is not built around either one of them,
Like this roster is not built around Sabonus currently. So I don't really understand
that particular narrative either. So I mean, you can have your opinions on
which way you think that they should go moving forward, but I don't think
that this roster was constructed by Kevin Pritchard of you know, Sabonus is our
best player and we're going to find guys that fit the way that he needs
to play. Like if that were the case, Doug McDermot would still be
on the team. And I understand the luxury tax implications there, but like
if this was really with Sabonus in mind, Doug McDermot would still be on
the team. Like, right, I thought the Sabonus at center minutes,
we're getting a lot better this year, and then I was in prep of
the podcast, I was looking at them and like, the raw statistics are
not really that much better than last year, but the rim protection during that
time is better, and they seem to just be getting burned by like really
hot shooting from on long twos and above the break threes. And so is
there any element to that, like what is happening in those minutes to or
is it that just sort of like a unlucky development. Again, just the
opponent above the break three point shooting during those minutes has been absurd. I
think it's almost forty percent or something ridiculous, right, So, I mean,
some of that's going to be a little bit hard to judge because during
the earlier portion of the season, since you know, before O'Shea got back
in the rotation, they were playing Goga and Sabonis together, So it wouldn't
necessarily be like Sabonis at five. It would be more Goga at five.
And like I said, when Sabonus is out there by himself, they pretty
typically head So you're going to be giving up threes, that's I mean,
that's something you're going to surrender if you're not scrambling really well out of that
with your lowman rotation. I mean, typically it would be more corner threes
than above the break. But yeah, I mean some of that just gonna
be noise. I mean that's kind of what's funny too. Like the pacers
are pointing out a lot, and I do think that the Turner Sabonis pairing
in general, like you can see that there has been improvements just because each
of them has gotten somewhat better, but like they're talking about how their net
ratings the best that it's been and that you know, this is work game.
We don't need to make changes or whatever. I'm like, okay,
but a lot of that, Like you kind of need to look at opponent
three point percentage because the last I looked at that, I think opponents are
shooting like thirty one or thirty two percent from three when turns a bonus around
the court together, and last year that would have been closer to like thirty
eight or thirty nine percent. So that's a pretty vast difference. Like I'm
not saying that makes up for the entirety of why the pairing is looked different,
but that's always the first thing that I kind of look at when you
look and start evaluating on off numbers and line up data. So if opponents
start progressing closer to what they were shooting last year, I'm not sure that
the pairing looks quite as good. But they have been better in the double
big minutes than they have with either one of them just out on the court
by themselves. From a net rating standpoint. As someone who is forever clung
to the fact that Carris LeVert is or is going to be very good,
this season has been up and down. I think he's probably playing through the
best offensive stretch individually for him right now. When you look at the last
six or seven games, what have you just noticed sort of about his season
that maybe contributes to the to the roller coaster that he's on. And is
it an actual larger issue of of fit or could it been Elmanov, like,
hey, look at what he's you know, still sort of trying to
come back from last year. Yeah, I mean, I don't think it
was helpful that he had the back fracture before the season even started, and
then obviously like the conditioning that he had said he worked to regain over the
summer, You know, some of that's going away when you're not involved in
training camp or anything, and you're having to work your way back on the
court. I felt like up until you know, probably about a week or
two ago, he still looked like he wasn't moving super well to me,
where it looked like, you know, when he needs to get an extra
burst, he just doesn't quite have it. You would see him a lot
on the bench, sitting there with like a back device on, and then
he did miss subsequent games after he had come back with back soreness that led
you to believe that was going to be somewhat of a lingering issue. So
I would take all that into account, but there are times where it feels
like he's very separatist from the offense, is the best way I would put
it that. Yeah, Yeah, I mean the game that they lost handidly
to the Bucks when Jannie was still healthy. Before this week, like Brogden
was having to Guardianis because their attempts to have a big Guardianis in the prior
matchup were rather disastrous. So Brogden is doing that and they're doubling, so
they're running more of the offense through Karris, and when you do that,
it doesn't feel like the ball is going to flow out from him and do
much for anybody else other than getting himself going. I mean, even last
night they didn't have They obviously didn't have Brogden with achilles soreness, and then
t J McConnell's out for maybe who knows how long, seems like maybe the
season. So they have Karris and Brad Wanamaker really heavily staggered, and Karas
finishes with like thirty points and five assists. His assists weren't really coming at
the half court though, And a lot of what you're watching him do last
night is you know, the pistons are switching, he's attacking that, or
if they did start to double, then they just weren't bringing a screen,
and he's attacking in isolation. Like it's great that he scored as efficiently as
he did last night, I'm not convinced that's going to happen, you know,
night in and night out consistently. So it wasn't necessarily that he was
getting anybody else involved. And I think my main quibble with him is he
needs to find a better balance on how he's using screens. He loves to
reject screens, especially if they're coming from his right side, like he wants
to get to his left and go away from that. I think he needs
to do a little bit better job assessing how quickly the screener is coming to
him, because a lot of coaches would tell you that the screen rejections should
be your number one option all the time. I mean, look at the
Pacers down the stretch of the fourth quarter against the heat. Karis Lavert gave
up two screen rejections and cause their defense to have all kinds of problems,
and Sabonus ended up blowing a gasket. Like, your defense is going to
be on the opposite side. It's going to force people. The BIG's going
to be out of position, if whether that's a drop or a hedge or
a switch. Like, if you give up the screen rejection, you're kind
of screwed, But you've got to judge how quickly. Like if Sabonus is
approaching quickly, then that's a great time to reject the screen because the big
is going to be also coming quickly. They're going to be off balance,
and then their ability to drop a foot back and get in front of you
is not as good. Now, if he's coming up slowly and you're going
to stand there and think about it and jab step and jab step, and
then you're going to reject it. You're not really gaining anything there other than
just driving into a crowd and down the stretch. In that Warriors game,
Draymond Green was not guarding Miles Turner unless Miles Turner was in the ballside corner.
So they're running like horns twist where essentially, you know, as you
would know in horns, Miles and Sabonis are both elbows. Miles sets the
first screen, Carris goes off of it one way, and then Myles exits
to the corner. Sabonis sets the other screen, and you're supposed to twist
back off of it and go to the right side of the floor, where
Miles would then be in the corner, so that Draymond would actually stay attached
to him. He kept wanting to go away from that and just go left
into the crowd, where Draymond was like, oh, well, now I
can roam all the way off of Miles, and on the last possession they
didn't run that, but then Carris ended up losing his footing while he was
attempting to do that. So I would imagine that the coaching staff. I
don't know this, but it's probably telling him like, you can do that
sometimes, but you need to judge what's happening on the court, and also
you need to let the offense do more of the work for you, because
he does that in Spain. Sometimes I just think it's gonna be a little
bit too much where then if you're not you the screen and you get yourself
into trouble, it's just an offensive reset. If you use the screen,
then you're creating separation. You can actually get Miles or Sabonis on the roll
or make another pass out of that. So yeah, I just think that
his playmaking in general has regressed a slight bit. I think he's a capable
passer. I just don't think he's necessarily and I don't this is gonna sound
harsh. I just don't think he's always a willing pastor, and that's shown
up in some games here, because like even in the Bucks game, there
was one possession where Sabonis was setting a corner pin in four miles And this
is part of the reason why I do understand where Miles is coming from,
because his teammates could find him more on occasion or Sabonis is waving like three
times behind him, like, hey, throw him the ball, throw him
the ball, and Carris takes goes over and takes a very tough pull up
baseline two, which he did happen to make. But that's not the right
play, like you need to make the right play. So I think that's
his next step moving forward. Would this, and I guess based off what
you said, the answer this might actually be no, but like would a
way to sort of ass wage what he's doing be too. I don't want
to say have him come off the bench because that seems stark, but like
stagger him more heavily from Brogden and sabonus with McConnell out now where it's like
my thought process, it seems like they prefer to start if they're healthy,
justin holiday over Chris da Arte, or maybe would it makes sense to give
Chris da Arte more run with those other four than it would cast the birds,
so he has more of his own me time and then maybe those things
like him just rejecting screens aren't as exacerbated by having, you know, if
you're leading bench heavier units, right. I looked at those numbers this morning
and I think Carris has only played about thirty four percent of his minutes without
Brogden on the court, So yeah, I mean, I'm not opposed to
that. I think that if, like obviously Carris's name has been in trade
rumors as well, I think if he was traded to a team that was
performing better than the Pacers are right now, they would probably be considering him
as like a six man bench juicer type role. I don't know that,
but I could see that logic, because he is somebody who needs to have
like the ball in his hands to the three of a star, but isn't
going to produce I don't think star numbers for you night in and night out.
Like he's not going to attack an isolation and score thirty points like he
did against the Pistons every game. But if he's in the bench, you're
probably more willing to let him do some of that and some of it too.
It's just like I think that Rick Carlisle's preference would be to have like
a team full of like point five second guys where you're making decisions that quickly,
and Carris really likes to dance a little bit more with the basketball,
So I think that's probably a little bit easier. Like I don't think that
they'll move him completely to the bench, but I see your point that,
especially with t J. McConnell out, Like this happened in Sacramento where Brogden
was out and they started McConnell and LeVert together, and it was kind of
like, you know, it probably would have been better just to start another
one of the shooters and continue to bring McConnell off the bench because Brad Wanamaker
has certain moments, but some of that has been pretty rough. So just
like last night, they started Lavert and Wanamaker together, then you really don't
have anybody else to run the bench. You know, you have to separate
them out. But it does seem like it's been the coaching staff's overall preference
that Carris is going to play a lot of his minutes with Sabonis and Brogden
plays a little bit more with Turner, Like a lot of Lavert's minutes have
matched up, even in bench alignments when Sabonis is out on the court,
because I think he wants to get downhill and have that as an option.
I think that's more his preference. But yeah, I think that if McConnell's
going to be out, it makes sense to spread out a few more of
Brogden and Lavert's minutes so that they can both have a little bit more opportunity
to handle. And see how Duarte matches with some of that. I mean,
he had a pretty rough game against Milwaukee himself and then had some moments
last night that were a little bit more mixed would have been your rookie year
impressions of Duarte. And then also is the two man game between him and
Sabonis, Like can that become a thing? I was watching Cameron if he
was the Wizards of the mass game, but whatever I saw and maybe go
back and watch every single Sabonis Duarte connection on the season from either end,
and they're just it's not the same as what he was doing with dugm Thermot
by any stretch. Like there does seem to be like some of that type
of synergy between those two, especially when Sabonus is the one who's who's diming
to Duarte, right And Duarte has mentioned in postgame interviews that he really likes
playing with Sabonis for that reason and that they're also close off the court.
But yeah, here's here's how I will tell you that you can tell that
it's starting to grow and get better. So last night there's a possession where
Duarte is going to come off a handoff from Sabonus, And here's how you
know. When Sabonus is comfortable with the person he's running with, it's a
completely live ball bounce handoff, like he's gonna he's just gonna bounce the player
into into the handoff. He's not actually going to physically hold his arm out
there and control it because he knows that he's comfortable that that player is going
to zoom into it quick enough that they can just go on a live without
the player risking knifing through the defender. So he does that with Duarte.
It's a live bounce handoff. Duarte gets that, the guy goes under and
Duarte holds it for a second and his patient is like, Okay, I'm
going to reject that and go back the other way, and then they switch
it, and he notices the switch and throws it over the top to Sabonis
to get a shot at the rim. That I think is a pretty good
indicator that both of them are coming. And the other thing that you can
notice with Sabonus when the chemistry is coming. Is Duarte a few times lately
has curled all the way around for the late pass, like if somebody does
overplay it, he can continues the progression of his cut all the way to
the rim and Sabonus will throw it up over the top. So those are
two more like what you're saying more Doug McDermott, like plays that you would
have seen a year ago that wasn't necessarily there early on. I think for
me personally, if they're going to have Duarte doing more, and I wouldn't
even necessarily call it primary, just more in actual pick and roll when he's
on ball, I think that there's times where there's hedging and this kind of
applies to all the guards where he needs to get off the ball quicker.
And then also when he's getting downhill he holds onto the ball. I would
say sometimes a beat too long when he needs to be able to find Sabonis
on the short roll, and then he gets too deep and is having to
pass it back over his head and it gets deflected. He had some of
those problems against Milwaukee too, But I mean overall, that's asking a lot,
I think for duartavis early, and you wouldn't necessarily need that if all
their players were healthy at the same time, I'm pretty pleased overall with this
secondary playmaking. If they bring him off of off ball motion, and I
think defensively he gives another element. I don't think it's perfect, but they
did have moments down the stretch against the Hawks where he was just flat out
face guarding Trey Young that I thought were pretty solid, So I think it's
a really good pick. It's better obviously than what they've been doing recently in
the draft. It was a pretty rough day the other day when it was
announced that TJ. Leaf had signed in China at the same time as they
were assigning Goga to the G League. So when you think of it within
that context, you're just happy that Duarte's out there playing and actually getting reps.
Yeah, I mean, especially in his first year too. I'm reframing
this question because he played a bunch over the past seven or eight games,
but the oh Brissette experience that is, like, he is such a helpful
player and as someone who makes you I think it is, at least for
many basketball fans A lot of the times we're conditioned to just zero in on
the ball, like whether it's defense or even offense. And he made camera
which game was he made like a really nifty pass to a cutting to our
day the other night. But like, Brissette made me want to watch stuff
away from the ball with the way he'll defend or some of the stuff that
he's going to do on offense. And so what's that like, is the
what encapsulates the Oshe Brissette experience and how actually important is he to this team
moving forward? Yeah, I was somewhat surprised early on in the season and
even in preseason it seemed like Isaiah Jackson was getting those minutes at the backup
four, and then when the season started, Isaiah Jackson was kind of out
of it, and Brissette, I don't believe played on opening night, and
then he did in that game that I mentioned earlier with the he was getting
the minutes, and then he was back out of the rotation again. So
I was a little bit surprised that he wasn't a more regular fixture, but
I think that they were just trying to get minutes for Goba anyway that they
could. But yeah, I think you bring up a really good point.
He might be their best cutter, one of their best cutters. I mean,
Justin does a lot with overall off ball motion, but in terms of
like forty five cuts and not spoiling the spacing and knowing where to find gaps,
O'Shea's very good at that. Then defensively, he's very good as the
low man, which they don't have a lot of people that can viably serve
that role. He moves so well sideline to sideline and contesting off ball.
He's kind of like Robert Covington in that way. A little bit is who
I would compare him to, Like, I don't know that I think that,
Like he's not great defending bigger people in the post or necessarily always on
ball, but the stuff that he does away from the ball defensively isn't something
that they readily have and other people on the rosters. So yeah, and
he just does a lot of what you're saying, like a lot of energy
moments. I clip some of them the other day because like it's not him
actually grabbing an offensive rebound, but he will crash in hard and tap the
ball and keep it alive so his teammates can still retain it, and that
was an element that was missing. Like if you ask, like what's changed
over these last like five or six games in comparison to how they look before
that heat game, Like their overall energy is different, and he's part of
that, Like he's part of juicing that in a way that like I think
fans sometimes think that Lance Stevenson did, only some of what O'Shea does is
like a little bit more contained than what Lance did. So I think that's
an element of it. Now that we're like one third of the way through
the season, are there any observations good or bad of Rick Carlisle's coaching job,
Like any material changes to this team that you like, any material changes
that you really think need to be shifted up. Why have they not asked
you to be a consultant for this team yet? Dropping so many smart tidbits
right now? I think that, Like I mean, early on, I
was pretty critical, to be honest, Like I didn't really understand some of
the Sabonis stuff and some of the late game stuff of you know, not
wanting to leverage like we're gonna stay big, but we're not going to leverage
our size. And again, like I've said, this many times. I'm
not shack on TNT. I don't think that you need to be, you
know, grinding out possessions and posting people every single play. But also like,
there is value in doing what you did against the Detroit Pistons last night,
against a smaller front line when you have Sabonis being as good as he
is being able to pass out of those traps, especially when Detroit was being
as predictable as they were in the way that they were doing it. They're
passing from the are doubling from the pastor every single time, so that should
be a pretty easy read to make. But yeah, I was critical of
that. And then also I was critical because he kind of, you know,
pointed out earlier in the year, like, well, we need to
be a team that changes defense into offense. And he's very much focused on
the defense, which I mean they needed to be after last year they had
a lot of problems on defense. But then it was like, okay,
but you're not really letting them do it. Like, if you really want
them to be able to turn into end and turn stops or defensive rebounds into
offense, then quit having them hold the ball and quit calling so many plays
but in two rock Carlisle's credit like over I would say probably since they did
a little bit against the Pelicans and then went away from it, but since
the win over the Knicks, pretty consistently they are not running very many plays
at all, like they're going to you know, three or four pet actions
and stuff out of spread and otherwise they're just playing a lot of random and
I think that's been good for a lot of the players, and there's a
balance there. I think some of the players on the team are a little
bit better at playing read and react than others, but I think that a
lot of them needed to have more freedom, and he's done that. I
think that as far as like correcting some of their zone defense issues, I
think that there's been progress on that front. But the exception of like some
of the mishaps they had with one three one up in Portland, I think
that they've done some interesting things triggering man out of his zone that are improvements.
So the one thing I'll say there to summarize is I do give Rick
Carlisle credit. I don't know that I necessarily think anyone on the rosters being
maximized by the overall you know, kind of more egalitarian approach, and I'm
not sure that I think that makes sense until you know, if you had
TJ. Warren and Carossel were fully healthy and functioning to the degree that they
could when they were last healthy, it might make more sense. But I
give Carlisle credit overall because he hasn't been a complete stickler and continuing to do
what he was doing, if that makes sense, like he could still be
calling every play from the sideline or you know. It seemed to me that
there was a pretty evident emphasis after that heat game when they played the Wizards
that like, hey, we need to start finding the pocket pass, and
we're going to work on that at practice to find other ways to do it,
like if our guards can't do it. And this is why I was
a little bit confusing late in that loss to the you know, shorthanded Bucks
the other night, because in the first half you could tell that the coaching
staff had worked with them, like, Okay, if our guards can't pass
over the top and can't bend these traps, we're going to short it and
pass it to the wing so that that wingman can then pass it to the
roller and then we can still play out of the middle of the floor,
and then by the fourth quarter they completely went away from that, which is
where I would then again blame the guards a little bit more than what the
coaching staff's doing, but I give them credit that they've at least been willing
to adjust. It's kind of like, you know, Kevin Pritchard's comments on
Twitter the other day. I don't think it was probably a good idea to
say on record that you don't have a real manufactured star. But I give
him a lot of credit because, just like with the Bjorkern situation, he
doesn't double down when he's done something that you probably shouldn't have done, Like
he came out and said, look, that was a mistake. I've told
the players, I apologize to them. I still believe in the players,
and I think that here lately, Rick Carlisle has done a little bit of
that, even if I would continue to quibble a little bit with the way
Sabonus and some of the other roles have shaken out. Do you have a
singularly huge pet peeve or just something that's wrong with this team when you're looking
at what they've done down the stretch of close games they are I'm sure you
notice that I'm not sure for our listeners do They're two and eleven in games
that are within one possession in the final two minutes. That's a lot of
wins being left on the table. And this isn't even traditional crunch time,
like it's one possession in the final two minutes. That's a ton of games
that are within reach. What is some of the things are just the biggest
thing that you've noticed about this team that contributes to such a demonstrably bad record
in those situations. Right, So if I was, if I was a
coaching staff listening to this, I will give from a different team. I
would tell you that you should blitz the pacers as much as possible in those
situations, and you should crowd sabonus and don't crowd him from the post entry
passer he gets the ball, bring the traps more randomly like what Toronto does
from different spots on the floor, because they're not going to react to it
well. And that doesn't mean that they'll even gets the bonus the ball in
those situations, but they might go away from him, just like when you
know the Lakers took all their centers off the floor. They put Lebron on
Sa Bonus, and it was like, oh, well, you know,
we don't really want to challenge that or try to look at it. Even
if Lebron switches out, We're still not going to look at it. And
it's that's I mean, that's what I'll bring up. That Bucks game.
They don't have Chris Milton, they don't have Yannis, they don't have a
slew of other players. The Bucks were hedging them from pretty much the beginning
of the game, and then afterwards they you know, Karris kind of said,
well we really kind of struggled against their hedges in the fourth quarter.
I'm like, yeah, but they were doing that the entire game, and
for some reason, like you just decided that you were gonna stay on ball
like Duarte, Brogden and Lavert, we're doing this, like staying on ball
way too long until the window of time when they could get it to the
release valve was gone. And then they're not playing out of the middle of
the floor, they're not making their opponents scramble. And then I think the
Bucks might have also mixed in like maybe one or two possessions of zone which
kind of put them off balance too. But you know, I just think
that a lot of what happens in crunch time is more a reflection, not
necessarily like I think that there have been some fluky things. They've been on
the wrong side of two last two minute report calls that would have, you
know, essentially sealed the game for them. And also like you can't always
control it if you're not going to make shots. And they're shooting the ball
pretty horrifically from three during crunch time, but they're also like shooting the ball
like I think they ranked like twenty eight and three point percentage in general.
So then it leads to what type of threes are you getting? That's what
goes back to the paint touch threes. What approach are you going to?
But more so if you're seeing exaggerated coverages, which is what teams are going
to do when the game is on the line, do you have the personnel
to respond to those? And I go back and forth of you know,
do they not have the personnel or do the personnel just not want to do
what they need to do in those situations, because it seemed last night that
they could are not last night, but it seemed against the books that they
could do it that they started getting frantic then in the fourth quarter, and
I agreed with Lloyd Piersoft for the game, He's like, there's only so
many timeouts we can take. They can't really prevent it. If guys like
they had six turnovers I believe in like the last seven minutes and the Bucks
had eight for the game. So like it just started throwing the ball to
the like the very obvious place where it needs to go, it doesn't go.
So if I was evaluating the team and I was the general manager,
like I know that, Kevin Pritchard corrected it and said, like, you
know, I wasn't necessarily referring to a star. I value our players.
I was referring to a closer. Which is kind of interesting because that's probably
like the first time somebody from Indiana has lumped Paul George into being a closer.
I've ever seen him like mentioned in that same context. And that's what,
like what, that's what the comment has said that like, you know,
Victor and Saba or Victor and Paul George had that hit factor. And
then later on he said, like he met a closer, but having somebody
else that can do some of like getting their own shot. If they're not
going to be able to or are not going to want to play through Sabonis
as more of a folkrum in those situations, I think is something that they're
probably missing unless Carris can really continue to turn this on and find that gear.
But I have some degree of doubt in that, just you know.
He also did, like I said, he lost his footing late in the
game against the Warriors. That's something that maybe that doesn't happen on another night,
but it did happen in another late game situation. So overall, I
don't think it's all bad luck. I think some of it is a reflection
of what I said, And that's what you're going to see in the playoffs.
You're going to see teams that are coming with exaggerated coverages for an entire
game and for game plans that are for all of your players, not just
at the end. And that's whow the Warriors shifted it. Like for most
of the game, they were defending things fairly normally, and then at the
end of the game, it's like Draymond's like just showing help everywhere, and
he's helping off of Miles, and how are you dealing with him as a
goalie, and do we have viable ways of doing that? I'm not always
sure. Ultimately, knowing that there are games that could have gone their way,
like closer rounds, knowing their tenth in non garbage time net rating,
knowing that TJ. Warren should eventually hopefully come back, it seems like is
there a much better version of this exact team within the roster or do you
think that they need some sort of a shake up, that they're missing some
a certain archetype of player. Yeah. I think overall the teams should be
better than what they currently are. I mean, this is not what I
would have predicted of them. I think that some of these games could have
gone the other way, and at times some of it's just flat out.
I don't want to blame all of this on it, but they have come
out very flat in some games, and effort wise, if that's a little
bit different than maybe the game changes as well, and then maybe crunch time
isn't as important. So but I don't think that any of that would change
my overall opinion of their ceiling. I think that that's still somewhat limited,
and I know that people in Indiana are getting pretty tired of hearing like,
oh, we think we could be a tough out, Like at a certain
point in time, you have to be I don't think you can continue to
be okay with that being what you're ceiling is like, oh, we could
be a tough out in the first round. Like right now they're not even
you know, in the in the playoff or the play in picture. But
if they got there, like, is that the best that you can be?
So I kind of see a situation where like, I don't think they
need to be in a place where they just make a move to necessarily make
one and less which obviously they do have more information than I do about what's
going on in the locker room, at least from a morale standpoint. Other
than what happened late against that Bucks games, it seems like the guys have
been a little bit more engaged with each other and celebrating each other's successes.
You're not seeing as many like a little blow ups as what we're happening before
that initial report came out. So if you feel like you can, you
know, handle and manage some of that for a while and see what you
can get if something better is going to come along, I suppose you,
you know, don't need to necessarily put a for sale sign out in the
yard today and take whatever the first person comes up and gives you. But
at the same time, I think that if they get to the end of
this season and they haven't made like you know, and we can quibble over
the words rebuild, retool, if they haven't made like an incremental step where
you know, we're gonna trade one of the bigs and care us and see
what we can do from there. Can this team be more competitive there and
then tear it down the rest of the way if you are, I would
be a little bit surprised by that, if that makes sense, Like if
they don't take the incremental step and move one or two of those guys and
see if that can change what their outcome is and add TJ. Warren back,
I will be surprised by that. Yeah, I thought, and I
mentioned this immediately after this break, I thought they were better suited to given
how good I think they should be make more, be more of like a
buyer thing where if you were able to, you know, move one of
the bigs, you have lavert and stuff, and you're able to get like
sort of a primary attacking We like the player that you would want Lavert to
be, but he really isn't. I don't want to say the player all
NBA Victory Ladipo was, because all NBA victory Ladipos don't actually grow on trees.
But it does seem more likely that, if anything, to me,
that they'll either end this season in a holding pattern or is it a situation
where do they explore moving Miles and or Carros Lavert for maybe future assets.
But it's it's not a matter of tearing it down. It's a matter of
how much worse are we actually without you know, Carris Lavert. It's the
guy who I love, But I keep looking at how much worse once TJ.
Warren is healthy are the Pacers without Carris LeVert? And I think that's
a question they could probably ask themselves. That's for them leading into the traded
line. But I personally would be shocked if they did anything like nuclear and
I think that, yeah, a lot of people jumped on. There's still
so much time between now and the deadline. It helps them if they want
to sell, because I believe they'll be a dearth of sellers. But I
think this team can and will be better, and I would just be if
I had to guess if they were making him move, I feel like they
would act still closer to buyers like they always have all along, rather than
the teardown candidate that that Athletic article painted the mess. Yeah, that's that's
where I would land as well. I mean, I could see a situation
where it's like, hey, you know so Bonus is only twenty five years
old, he's our best player. We have an extra year of him on
his contract. Let's see what we can do and getting pieces around he and
Brogden and TJ. Warren and you know, and maybe you retain Miles.
Maybe you just move Carris. I don't know, but maybe you move both
of them and see, like, how bad does the defense look? Can
this be a viable solution? What other piece can we add back there?
And then if it doesn't work, you take the next step from their next
season, because you still have time. He's not going to be in a
contract year. I don't think that you need to rush and do this right
away unless you're just like blown over by a no brainer offer. Because if
you're wanting to stay competitive, which is what herbs Simon made that sound like
to me, like we would be making moves because we still want to be
a good team. I find it very hard to believe that for Sabonus at
eighteen million dollars that you're going to get a one for one swap player that's
going to make them better than what they are with him. Now. Like
again, if you are going the full rebuild mode and you're just like,
we want to see how many picks we can get back and what the overall
like we think we can get more for Sabonus than that track would make more
sense to me. But that doesn't sound like what herb Simon wants to do.
So yeah, it's almost like eighty seven he won't be on board with
a rebuild rather than using eighty seven as a reason he would be on board.
Yeah, yeah, is there uh And looks as long as o'she Brissette
remains untouchable, I'm fine. That's the basis. Can do anything to move
in right, Anything else about this team or anyone on this team that we
didn't touch on. I know we didn't talk a ton about Malcolm Malcolm Brogden,
but anything along those lines that you think we need to discuss before I
let you out of here. No, I think I think you totally touched
on all of the major topics that have covered and be laggered the Pacers over
the first twenty plus games of the season, and as promised, I kept
it fake trade talk to a minimum. I know you love fake trades,
but I thought we've thought we've heard enough of them and that we could see
away from them for this episode. I mean, I think that we've almost
always heard enough of them, because I mean and that that is something I
will counter. You're like, everyone always wants to know, oh, Turner
or Sabonis. You really can't answer that question unless you're Kevin Pritchard. There's
really no good way to answer it because you don't know what they're getting back
in return. I can't tell you if I think that a Sabonis, you
know, team at the five would be viable unless I know what they're getting
back. And same in the return was Miles like, you're losing two very
different things with each of them. So and unless I can see, unless
they call me up and they're like, oh, hey, Kaitlin, here's
all of the packages that have been offered, I really can't just pick one
or the other over them and be able to tell people that. And also
like, I'm not a front office member, so I'll just you know,
let them make those deals and tell you how the trade's going to work after
it's happened. Someone who actually enjoys fake trades. I actually do agree with
you there. I would also say that the Pacers should absolutely be calling Kaitlyn
and throwing all the hypothetical packages they've got her way so she can deliver a
verdict. Kaitlyn, are you able to tell our listeners where they can follow
you and your work if they don't already, Because if they don't already,
you know, remedy that post taste. Right. So my handles at Sea
two underscore Cooper. I'm at Indy corn Rows Indiana Pacer blog at SPI Nation
about once or twice a week, and then next week we'll be our monthly
podcast summit where we kind of summarize stuff that's going on with the Pacers.
So we do that once a month on the third Tuesday. Is that that
I'm going to Butcher? Is that the two podcast? There's two questions too.
It's a reference to a former PA announcer reporter always said and the Pacers
continue to say it now and in the last two minutes of games they say
two minutes too. How so that's what we've named it. I love those
podcasts, you would, marsh in. They're doing a great job with them,
so definitely check those out. Caitlin, thank you so much again for
giving us your time, especially during such a busy part of the Pacers season.
I guess I know you've been running the gamut of podcast appearances, so
we always appreciate you over here, and as you know by now, I'll
be pestering you again down the line. Hey, I look forward to it.
I always like coming on here.