1 00:00:02,600 --> 00:00:07,639 What is krak Alakin Hardwood Knocks listeners, I am Damp Valley coming at you 2 00:00:07,679 --> 00:00:12,919 without my fantabulous co host Adam frommel also breaking a cardinal rule I have to 3 00:00:13,000 --> 00:00:17,120 never publish a podcast on the middle of a Friday. However, you all 4 00:00:17,199 --> 00:00:20,920 might be waiting for our second installment of trade targets for every team. We've 5 00:00:20,960 --> 00:00:23,320 already done the East. Coach, I got that pod. We have the 6 00:00:23,399 --> 00:00:28,120 West up. Due to what I thought was better programming schedule, I was 7 00:00:28,199 --> 00:00:32,640 able to talk with Caitlyn Cooper from Indie corn Rows about the Indiana Pacers. 8 00:00:32,679 --> 00:00:36,320 If you listen to this podcast or follow basketball at large, you know who 9 00:00:36,399 --> 00:00:41,399 Caitlin is at C two underscore Cooper on Twitter. She's great, does such 10 00:00:41,399 --> 00:00:46,200 a good job breaking down all things Pacers the way that she's able to write, 11 00:00:46,240 --> 00:00:48,240 And I've told her this, I've told a bunch of people I think 12 00:00:48,240 --> 00:00:53,320 I've mentioned on this podcast too. So good at writing and making very in 13 00:00:53,439 --> 00:00:58,840 depth, granular details, sometimes complex details about the game accessible to everyone, 14 00:00:58,960 --> 00:01:03,240 including morons myself, So that's a pretty big deal. I had the opportunity 15 00:01:03,240 --> 00:01:04,200 to have her on to talk about all this stuff that's going on with the 16 00:01:04,239 --> 00:01:08,480 Pacers, what's happened so far where this team could be headed. They have 17 00:01:08,560 --> 00:01:12,000 a few days off as if we recorded this, but and rather than holding 18 00:01:12,040 --> 00:01:19,280 it until Monday, this team has been too much of a unpredictable entity. 19 00:01:19,439 --> 00:01:21,599 Might be the west best way to put it that. I didn't want it 20 00:01:21,640 --> 00:01:23,920 to blow up somehow, so we're just gonna put it out on the Friday 21 00:01:23,920 --> 00:01:27,400 afternoon. We'll delay the tradespod that we have in the clip, that'll come 22 00:01:27,400 --> 00:01:30,680 out on Monday or Tuesday, and then you'll get a mailbag before the Christmas 23 00:01:30,719 --> 00:01:34,680 Games. Not sure if anyone was that concerned about our programming schedule, but 24 00:01:34,079 --> 00:01:38,040 we know everyone loves to talk about fake trades. You just want to give 25 00:01:38,040 --> 00:01:41,000 you an update. At that I get into a lot with Caitlyn Cooper. 26 00:01:41,040 --> 00:01:44,359 You're going to enjoy the conversation again. She is emong, if not the 27 00:01:44,400 --> 00:01:48,680 absolute best in the business. Our very few housekeeping notes before we can and 28 00:01:48,719 --> 00:01:53,439 ball in here Beyond the programming schedule, follow us on Twitter at Hardwood Knox. 29 00:01:53,640 --> 00:01:56,799 Please please remember to rate, review, and subscribe to Hardwin Knox wherever 30 00:01:56,799 --> 00:02:00,159 you get your podcasts. Spotify now has a rating system in play, so 31 00:02:00,200 --> 00:02:04,040 if you're already subscribed on Spotify, go over there, throw us a rating, 32 00:02:04,040 --> 00:02:06,120 write a review if they allow you to haven't really checked it out. 33 00:02:06,120 --> 00:02:07,960 We also ask whether you use iTunes or not to head over to iTunes. 34 00:02:08,000 --> 00:02:10,800 Throw us a five star rating, write review. If this is your first 35 00:02:10,800 --> 00:02:14,879 time checking out Hardwood Knox and you have made it this far into the intro 36 00:02:15,240 --> 00:02:20,759 because you're very allegiant to everything that Caitlyn Cooper does. Welcome. Maybe you're 37 00:02:20,759 --> 00:02:23,560 just here by random, Welcome to you as well. Consider throwing us that 38 00:02:23,560 --> 00:02:28,039 permanent subscription, downloading all our episodes, writing a review, throwing us that 39 00:02:28,080 --> 00:02:31,199 five star rating. Help us promote this Retweet our promos on Twitter, Tell 40 00:02:31,280 --> 00:02:36,919 your friends, family members, acquaintances on the internet about us. We are, 41 00:02:37,000 --> 00:02:40,439 as I always say, among the I would say, only modestly insufferable 42 00:02:40,520 --> 00:02:46,479 national NBA podcasts. That is enough out of me talking at full speed and 43 00:02:46,479 --> 00:02:51,199 a half and rambling. Let's get to some Indiana Pacers. Talk with the 44 00:02:51,360 --> 00:02:57,960 world famous, the one and only Caitlyn Cooper. Caitlin, welcome back to 45 00:02:58,000 --> 00:03:00,039 the Hardwoo Knox podcast. Thank you so much. Are coming on within a 46 00:03:00,080 --> 00:03:04,039 shorter span of time than you normally would have. I try and leave like 47 00:03:04,080 --> 00:03:07,039 a healthy gap between team look aheads and if we're going to do a mid 48 00:03:07,080 --> 00:03:10,879 season check in, but the Pacers have demanded it. Most importantly though, 49 00:03:10,960 --> 00:03:15,479 first and foremost, how are you doing? I'm doing well. I'm always 50 00:03:15,479 --> 00:03:17,639 happy to get an invite back to this particular podcast. You've had me on 51 00:03:17,680 --> 00:03:22,240 so many times, so I'm always grateful and willing to come back on. 52 00:03:22,319 --> 00:03:23,520 And yeah, I mean the Pacers have kind of forced our hands here. 53 00:03:23,520 --> 00:03:28,479 I think we have to talk about them. The report that first one from 54 00:03:28,520 --> 00:03:32,719 the athletic what is just what were your impressions of it, the timing behind 55 00:03:32,759 --> 00:03:35,680 it, and I think, my you know, I guess a week and 56 00:03:35,680 --> 00:03:38,319 a half or moved or whatever it is. Do you actually buy into the 57 00:03:38,360 --> 00:03:43,280 idea that this team would consider the nuclear tear down, given how out of 58 00:03:43,400 --> 00:03:46,879 character it would be? Right, So the initial timing didn't exactly surprise me 59 00:03:46,919 --> 00:03:50,879 because of everything that went wrong in that game when they lost to Miami. 60 00:03:50,919 --> 00:03:53,879 I mean, they were having I wouldn't necessarily term it as in fighting, 61 00:03:53,879 --> 00:03:57,719 but there was clear frustration on the court. The arena was empty, you 62 00:03:57,759 --> 00:04:00,000 could hear people. It seemed like a pin could drow and at the same 63 00:04:00,000 --> 00:04:03,479 time, the fans that were there were booing the product. The effort level 64 00:04:03,520 --> 00:04:06,840 was not good, the process against the zone was not good. So it 65 00:04:06,840 --> 00:04:11,479 didn't exactly surprise me. I mean that or that game alone enforced my hand 66 00:04:11,479 --> 00:04:13,680 to write about, you know, what had been going wrong for them in 67 00:04:13,719 --> 00:04:15,560 close games and other stuff, and me feeling like they didn't really have an 68 00:04:15,560 --> 00:04:19,399 identity. So it didn't really surprise me that the report itself came out. 69 00:04:19,480 --> 00:04:24,639 But the actual report with the word rebuilding was surprising to me because, as 70 00:04:24,639 --> 00:04:28,240 you say, that's not really synonymous with what people think of the way that 71 00:04:28,279 --> 00:04:30,519 the Pacers operate. But also there had been reports over the summer that Kevin 72 00:04:30,519 --> 00:04:34,759 Pritchard had been at least pondering the possibility of doing that and that he had 73 00:04:34,800 --> 00:04:39,079 gotten pushed back from ownership. So to me, if that's something that you 74 00:04:39,120 --> 00:04:41,959 were going to do, you probably would have done it then, like even 75 00:04:42,040 --> 00:04:46,439 maybe before you hired Carlisle or before you drafted Chris Duarte as more of like 76 00:04:46,519 --> 00:04:51,399 this win now ready to go prospect, So that aspect of it, But 77 00:04:51,399 --> 00:04:54,800 then when you got into the article, I mean, that was kind of 78 00:04:54,800 --> 00:04:58,079 the quibble that I had. It didn't exactly sound like that was the intention 79 00:04:58,120 --> 00:05:00,879 even in the reporting. I mean, it was saying rebuild on the go. 80 00:05:00,600 --> 00:05:02,839 It wasn't saying that they were going to be into you know, like 81 00:05:02,959 --> 00:05:05,199 this wasn't going to be a sam Hinky thing, I guess is what we 82 00:05:05,240 --> 00:05:09,720 should be saying, or what the thunder are currently doing anyways, So I 83 00:05:09,759 --> 00:05:13,279 think probably some of it got, you know, down the road a little 84 00:05:13,319 --> 00:05:15,920 bit further than what the reporting even indicated. But now Herb Simon's done subsequent 85 00:05:16,360 --> 00:05:20,079 interviews and it doesn't sound like he at all wants anybody to think that he's 86 00:05:20,120 --> 00:05:23,800 going to be on the path of tanking, because it's not something that he 87 00:05:23,839 --> 00:05:28,560 wants to watch. That got quite a bit of outrage and pushback from people 88 00:05:28,639 --> 00:05:32,319 around Indiana. I was a little bit you know more, I guess I 89 00:05:32,319 --> 00:05:35,000 should say I did have quite the same reaction as other people did. I 90 00:05:35,000 --> 00:05:39,639 think it was kind of out of touch for him to use the words like, 91 00:05:39,680 --> 00:05:44,600 oh, I love our little team and then pretending as though Indiana is 92 00:05:44,639 --> 00:05:46,759 going to attract top tier free agents. Feels a little bit tone deaf, 93 00:05:46,800 --> 00:05:49,480 but at the same time like he was kind of coming with the same approach 94 00:05:49,480 --> 00:05:53,079 that Rick Carlisle has like, we like our team, but trades can always 95 00:05:53,120 --> 00:05:56,000 happen, and to me, that's what front they need to be putting out 96 00:05:56,079 --> 00:05:59,600 right now maintain leverage. But also you don't need to be downplaying the talent 97 00:05:59,680 --> 00:06:01,959 that you have in your locker room. So I'm not under the impression that 98 00:06:02,439 --> 00:06:05,839 Herb Simon's going to block Kevin Pritchards were making moves. I think that they're 99 00:06:05,839 --> 00:06:09,519 still going to be scanning the market and trying to see if there's ways that 100 00:06:09,519 --> 00:06:12,680 they can get this team better now or in the future, because I mean, 101 00:06:12,839 --> 00:06:15,839 Herb Simon even said and one of the quotes somewhere along the line like 102 00:06:15,839 --> 00:06:18,120 we're not going to go out and intentionally lose games or you know, that's 103 00:06:18,160 --> 00:06:20,079 just not the way I want to do it. Now. We might lose 104 00:06:20,120 --> 00:06:24,519 games if we're trying to get opportunities for rookies, but it's not going to 105 00:06:24,560 --> 00:06:28,439 be something we intentionally do. So I'm still not under the impression that they're 106 00:06:28,480 --> 00:06:30,240 satisfied with the way things are, but I do know that there were other 107 00:06:30,279 --> 00:06:34,240 people that interpreted it more that way. I found it odd the way it 108 00:06:34,279 --> 00:06:36,839 was framed too, where I think one of the lines was just like at 109 00:06:36,879 --> 00:06:40,839 eighty seven. Herb Simon is more open to a rebuild, which just doesn't 110 00:06:40,839 --> 00:06:44,120 make any sense to me. What's at eighty seven? Like why like we 111 00:06:44,160 --> 00:06:46,920 want to be around, like to see the end of this rebuild. It 112 00:06:46,079 --> 00:06:49,800 Also, this isn't scientific, and Christy Arntey was clearly the right pick, 113 00:06:50,399 --> 00:06:54,720 but like you drafted an older rookie, you hired Rick Carlisle, this team 114 00:06:54,959 --> 00:06:58,240 don't feel like it's built to make moves, maybe a consolidation move, but 115 00:06:58,240 --> 00:07:00,680 it doesn't really seem like it's built or that its thought process even in the 116 00:07:00,720 --> 00:07:05,040 off season, was the prospect of a tear down was on the table, 117 00:07:05,920 --> 00:07:09,959 right? I mean, And even if you just think along those particular lines 118 00:07:10,000 --> 00:07:13,680 and they say that, you know, Keras or Sabonis or Miles or maybe 119 00:07:13,680 --> 00:07:15,360 both of them are available. You know, Golden State has been one of 120 00:07:15,399 --> 00:07:18,079 the teams that's been mentioned. And I brought this up on our podcast that 121 00:07:18,120 --> 00:07:21,160 it's like, okay, if you're going the full rebuild route, which it 122 00:07:21,199 --> 00:07:24,319 doesn't sound to me at all that they are. But if you were, 123 00:07:24,600 --> 00:07:28,639 the decision between Turner and Sabonis would merely just be about asset evaluation in which 124 00:07:28,639 --> 00:07:31,000 one of them is going to net you the most in return, So you're 125 00:07:31,040 --> 00:07:34,600 gonna like trade one of them to Golden State for young prospects that you yourself 126 00:07:34,639 --> 00:07:39,600 didn't just draft when you could have Like that just seems a little bit counterintuitive 127 00:07:39,639 --> 00:07:42,600 to me. I mean, they literally could have drafted Moses Moody. They 128 00:07:42,639 --> 00:07:46,079 passed on him to take Chris Duarte because they liked his ability to be plug 129 00:07:46,079 --> 00:07:47,959 and play and that he fit the way Rick Carlisle wanted to play. Now, 130 00:07:47,959 --> 00:07:50,839 I'm not necessarily saying it would be a bad thing to have both of 131 00:07:50,879 --> 00:07:54,959 those types of players, but it just seems counterintuitive based on what their summer 132 00:07:55,000 --> 00:08:00,800 planning was. Miles Turner had the interesting interview with the ft Letic and Kevin. 133 00:08:01,439 --> 00:08:03,800 Kevin Pritchard was on the record for that one too, and I think 134 00:08:03,360 --> 00:08:07,759 his comments about them not having a star was he was rightfully dragged for it, 135 00:08:07,800 --> 00:08:11,399 but he did at least try and clarify it on Twitter. I'm more 136 00:08:11,439 --> 00:08:16,079 curious about what you made about Turner's comments, and you've mentioned it role clarity, 137 00:08:16,120 --> 00:08:18,879 and you've talked about on past podcast we've done about other stuff that he 138 00:08:18,959 --> 00:08:22,639 can do aside from shoot, and then you've mentioned a few times this year 139 00:08:22,680 --> 00:08:26,399 on Twitter and stuff, he wrote like he has the one dribble like escape 140 00:08:26,399 --> 00:08:30,399 three in his arsenal now, and so he's clearly a better player. But 141 00:08:30,439 --> 00:08:35,559 do you buy into that he won deserves a bigger role or needs a more 142 00:08:35,559 --> 00:08:37,879 clarified role, or is he even the type of guy that's capable of shouldering 143 00:08:37,919 --> 00:08:41,080 more than he's doing at the moment. I mean, in general, I'm 144 00:08:41,120 --> 00:08:45,840 a little bit confused by exactly what he was getting at in that article. 145 00:08:45,879 --> 00:08:48,960 I know he said after the fact that like, this isn't about touches or 146 00:08:48,039 --> 00:08:52,360 play calling, it's about role clarity. And I've talked to my teammates, 147 00:08:52,399 --> 00:08:56,279 and I've talked to Kevin Pritchard and Carlisle about it. To me, it's 148 00:08:56,320 --> 00:08:58,200 kind of like, well, then, why did you need to say it 149 00:08:58,240 --> 00:09:01,320 publicly if you had already talked to the people who control it. But I 150 00:09:01,360 --> 00:09:05,519 think what my interpretation of what he wants is he wants to do more of 151 00:09:05,559 --> 00:09:09,320 the Sabonis stuff when both of them are on the court, or at least 152 00:09:09,360 --> 00:09:13,399 have the opportunity too, and that he wants to be involved more as the 153 00:09:13,440 --> 00:09:16,519 screen or a show that he can do more different things. And it's funny 154 00:09:16,559 --> 00:09:20,200 because when you look back at that game against the Knicks before the night before 155 00:09:20,279 --> 00:09:24,240 that article came out, I tweeted during the game that I felt that there 156 00:09:24,320 --> 00:09:28,240 was very much like an intention behind how that game started. Like they ran 157 00:09:28,360 --> 00:09:30,559 the very first play of the game for him, and it was a different 158 00:09:30,559 --> 00:09:33,399 play than they've been running all season. They were getting him more ball screens. 159 00:09:33,399 --> 00:09:37,960 It seemed like they had shifted some of his minutes just a smidge to 160 00:09:37,960 --> 00:09:41,840 get him more at solo five and we're having involved in way more screens than 161 00:09:41,879 --> 00:09:43,000 what they had in the past. So it was clear to me that they 162 00:09:43,000 --> 00:09:46,080 were trying to accommodate it to an extent. For me, when I look 163 00:09:46,080 --> 00:09:50,200 at Miles and Sabonis, especially in the minutes when they're on the floor together, 164 00:09:50,240 --> 00:09:52,519 I already feel like Sabonis probably isn't doing quite enough of the Sabonis stuff. 165 00:09:52,879 --> 00:09:56,320 So it filled it to Miles. There needs to be a clear reason 166 00:09:56,360 --> 00:09:58,080 why you're doing it. Like I'm not opposed to him being involved as the 167 00:09:58,120 --> 00:10:01,159 screener, but it's like, who's defending him? What reason are you doing 168 00:10:01,159 --> 00:10:05,279 it? If you are going to be looking at him on the interior, 169 00:10:05,919 --> 00:10:09,320 is there a clear advantage there because there are some games where he can do 170 00:10:09,320 --> 00:10:13,120 this, Like last night against the Pistons, he posted up guard and right 171 00:10:13,200 --> 00:10:16,039 in front of the basket, sealed turned and got an and one I believe 172 00:10:16,080 --> 00:10:20,159 the night before in Milwaukee he posted up Drew Holiday and got completely stone walled 173 00:10:20,200 --> 00:10:22,399 and the ball was stripped and then it's kind of like, you know, 174 00:10:22,440 --> 00:10:26,080 why am I watching this? So it was kind of interesting last night the 175 00:10:26,200 --> 00:10:28,120 very first play of the game, again they ran a wedge set for him 176 00:10:28,159 --> 00:10:31,639 to slide down to the block, but she got bumped off his route and 177 00:10:31,679 --> 00:10:35,440 then they turned it into like motion strong. But it's kind of funny because 178 00:10:35,720 --> 00:10:37,559 I had brought that up like two weeks ago that like all those wedge sets 179 00:10:37,600 --> 00:10:41,600 that Nap Yorker used to run with, you know, Doug McDermott screening at 180 00:10:41,600 --> 00:10:43,559 the elbow for sabonus to slide to the block are gone. Like, they 181 00:10:43,600 --> 00:10:46,720 don't do a lot of contained ways to get him post ups. It's more 182 00:10:46,799 --> 00:10:50,759 just organic, you know, duck ends. And then to see them do 183 00:10:50,840 --> 00:10:54,039 that on the first play of the game tells me that they're at least, 184 00:10:54,080 --> 00:10:56,840 you know, trying to get him involved, maybe earlier, so that maybe 185 00:10:56,840 --> 00:11:00,720 he's a little bit more engaged as the game goes on. But I've kind 186 00:11:00,759 --> 00:11:03,000 of always envisioned him, and I was happy with what progress he's made because 187 00:11:03,000 --> 00:11:05,279 I see him as a six foot eleven shooting guard. I see him as 188 00:11:05,320 --> 00:11:09,360 a guy who's really improved at finding cuts, finding spots in that sort of 189 00:11:09,360 --> 00:11:13,759 way. His three point shot is falling in a better clip what I said 190 00:11:13,759 --> 00:11:16,639 about you know, if somebody hard closes out at him, he can still 191 00:11:16,759 --> 00:11:18,840 escape from that. Also getting better at putting the ball on the floor a 192 00:11:18,919 --> 00:11:22,799 little bit. I think he's better off playing outside of the action, especially 193 00:11:22,799 --> 00:11:26,679 with the current iteration of the roster. Now, if he got traded to 194 00:11:26,720 --> 00:11:31,559 a different team or he was just at the five, maybe with more reps 195 00:11:31,720 --> 00:11:33,720 he would improve at some of those things. I don't think he's super fluid 196 00:11:33,759 --> 00:11:37,120 on the role. It sounds like he wants to be doing more of that, 197 00:11:37,320 --> 00:11:41,039 and it looks to me that they've tried to adjust his footwork a smidge 198 00:11:41,240 --> 00:11:43,159 so that he's using a hop step and he can release a little bit better 199 00:11:43,200 --> 00:11:46,360 like what you see Sabonis do. That's a little bit more fluid. Maybe 200 00:11:46,360 --> 00:11:50,159 that comes with time, but I think that that's affected some of the contact 201 00:11:50,159 --> 00:11:52,320 that he's making on some of the picks, so he's gonna have to find 202 00:11:52,320 --> 00:11:56,440 a happy middle there. But there's just not as many options from a mile 203 00:11:56,480 --> 00:11:58,440 screen in general as there is from Sabonis. You're not getting the same degree 204 00:11:58,480 --> 00:12:03,799 of playmaker. He doesn't get defended in the same way. So that's another 205 00:12:03,840 --> 00:12:05,759 element of it too. If Miles is improved to the degree that he thinks 206 00:12:05,759 --> 00:12:11,080 he has and then teams do start defending him with more people, so it 207 00:12:11,120 --> 00:12:13,200 isn't just a two on two or you know, he does start doing more 208 00:12:13,240 --> 00:12:16,799 against a switch than what comes next. I think it makes sense for him 209 00:12:16,840 --> 00:12:20,399 to be, you know, especially if he was on a better team, 210 00:12:20,440 --> 00:12:24,039 to continue in this role where he's kind of low usage, high efficiency. 211 00:12:24,120 --> 00:12:26,879 I think that makes sense. But I also agreed with Rick Carlisle's quote in 212 00:12:26,919 --> 00:12:30,559 that article. They're running a far more read and react offense than even the 213 00:12:30,559 --> 00:12:33,960 beginning of the year. There's places that he could him be involving himself. 214 00:12:33,960 --> 00:12:35,639 I don't think that any of his coaches have said, you know, we 215 00:12:35,759 --> 00:12:39,639 just want you to hide in the corner. You just go and stand there. 216 00:12:39,840 --> 00:12:43,080 You're not allowed to leave, You're not allowed to find other spots to 217 00:12:43,120 --> 00:12:48,240 assert yourself within the offense. I just really quibble with that. But you 218 00:12:48,240 --> 00:12:50,360 know, if that's the way he's felt and they're willing to help him find 219 00:12:50,399 --> 00:12:52,799 different ways to assert himself, I don't have a problem with that. He 220 00:12:52,799 --> 00:12:56,919 has, you know, his efficiency has been better this year, but I 221 00:12:56,960 --> 00:12:58,240 think that there needs to be a two way street there, and some of 222 00:12:58,240 --> 00:13:01,960 the accountability falls with him as well. And it's also just kind of tough 223 00:13:03,000 --> 00:13:05,679 where, let's say, if he even did deserve it, the idea of 224 00:13:05,720 --> 00:13:09,600 having him do more of the Sabonus stuff during the minute in which he's on 225 00:13:09,639 --> 00:13:13,120 the court with Sabonus just doesn't track at all because Sabonus is so much better 226 00:13:13,240 --> 00:13:16,720 at the Sabonus stuff. Well yeah, and like I said, I mean, 227 00:13:16,759 --> 00:13:18,799 some of that's even been deluded. And the funny thing is is, 228 00:13:18,039 --> 00:13:22,159 I mean I wrote this article in preseason only in the reverse why is Sabonis 229 00:13:22,240 --> 00:13:24,320 standing in the corner? Because it was happening so much in the first few 230 00:13:24,320 --> 00:13:26,799 preseason games. I'm like, you know, something is at work here, 231 00:13:28,080 --> 00:13:31,759 and it felt like they were trying to evaluate how much can both of these 232 00:13:31,799 --> 00:13:35,480 guys do, how interchangeable can they be can we play sabonus off ball? 233 00:13:35,799 --> 00:13:39,639 Will he be able to hit those shots, you know, in the shorter 234 00:13:39,720 --> 00:13:41,879 corner. And also can Miles be running more out of delay? Can he 235 00:13:41,960 --> 00:13:46,000 be doing more of this handoff stuff. Can we have him at the elbows? 236 00:13:46,000 --> 00:13:48,919 Can we have him more at the screener? And I thought the results 237 00:13:48,919 --> 00:13:50,879 of that were pretty mixed. It didn't make a whole lot of sense to 238 00:13:50,919 --> 00:13:54,679 me. And then shortly into the season they kind of went away from it. 239 00:13:54,720 --> 00:13:56,440 But you know, even his one quote where he kind of talked about, 240 00:13:56,480 --> 00:13:58,879 you know, I had the forty point game against the Wizards, like, 241 00:14:00,080 --> 00:14:01,720 you know, that was incredible. Obviously, everything that you wanted him 242 00:14:01,720 --> 00:14:05,440 to do he did. If he was open, he shot the ball. 243 00:14:05,440 --> 00:14:07,519 He didn't hesitate, and that's been a problem over the last several years where 244 00:14:07,519 --> 00:14:11,039 there were times or he might record scratch out of a three, or if 245 00:14:11,039 --> 00:14:15,080 somebody smaller pre rotated or rotated over and he passed out of those shots, 246 00:14:15,080 --> 00:14:18,039 he wasn't doing it. He was confidently looking for his own offense. That's 247 00:14:18,039 --> 00:14:20,159 what you want him to do. But then he was kind of like, 248 00:14:20,200 --> 00:14:22,559 well then the next game, it was just status quo again. I'm like, 249 00:14:22,559 --> 00:14:24,799 well, I don't know that I would say that. I think that 250 00:14:24,879 --> 00:14:28,720 you went from not being guarded against the Wizards to the Miami he actually guarding 251 00:14:28,879 --> 00:14:33,639 you. And then you know o'she bor set stayed on the floor and they 252 00:14:33,879 --> 00:14:37,120 were not running plays and getting touches for O'Shea bor sett like he was just 253 00:14:37,159 --> 00:14:39,279 playing on the periphery of Spain pick and rolls for the majority of the game, 254 00:14:39,320 --> 00:14:43,799 he was just making shots. So I don't really see how their roles 255 00:14:43,799 --> 00:14:48,879 were like dramatically different there that warranted you know, why O'Shea stayed on the 256 00:14:48,879 --> 00:14:52,759 court and Miles didn't because he didn't have the same flow. But I'm clearly 257 00:14:52,799 --> 00:14:56,679 not him. I don't know exactly what he wants, but I found some 258 00:14:56,720 --> 00:15:01,559 of it pretty confusing personally. Do you think that that either exploration of trying 259 00:15:01,600 --> 00:15:05,399 to fit in turn or more just explore the rest of the offense is like 260 00:15:05,559 --> 00:15:09,159 accounting for how differently they're using Sabonis or what I guess I should say less 261 00:15:09,200 --> 00:15:13,240 they're using sabonus, Like what has been your read on that? Because I 262 00:15:13,240 --> 00:15:16,320 think is his playing time isn't down a ton compared to last year, and 263 00:15:16,360 --> 00:15:20,639 he was going to that Pistons game, averaging more than ten fewer touches in 264 00:15:20,679 --> 00:15:22,759 the front court per game, which just seems like compared to the I think 265 00:15:22,759 --> 00:15:26,840 he's playing less than two minutes less per game compared to last season. That 266 00:15:26,879 --> 00:15:31,519 just seems like way too stark for someone who's been such a driving force for 267 00:15:31,559 --> 00:15:35,000 that offense and for that team for so long now. I mean, I 268 00:15:35,039 --> 00:15:39,120 think it's a lot of confounding factors there. I think in preseason it was 269 00:15:39,200 --> 00:15:41,720 somewhat wanting to see the Miles stuff. I mean, Miless touches are basically 270 00:15:41,759 --> 00:15:45,799 the same as the last two years, so I don't think it's necessarily like 271 00:15:45,960 --> 00:15:50,480 taking you know, from here and putting it there directly. I think it 272 00:15:50,519 --> 00:15:56,320 was more an overall systematic stylistic preference that I mean, I don't really think 273 00:15:56,360 --> 00:16:00,440 Sabonis was ever this heliocentric option that he gets billed as, but I think 274 00:16:00,440 --> 00:16:03,799 it was we're going to de emphasize that because we want to play more together, 275 00:16:03,919 --> 00:16:07,879 we want to have this more egalitarian approach where more people can you know, 276 00:16:07,960 --> 00:16:11,879 dribble, pass and shoot, and that you know, wasn't necessarily working 277 00:16:11,919 --> 00:16:15,879 out to the best way, especially late in games or I think that they 278 00:16:15,919 --> 00:16:18,960 probably could have been playing through him a little bit more. I think some 279 00:16:18,039 --> 00:16:19,600 of it, too, is just the guards. I mean, I don't 280 00:16:19,639 --> 00:16:22,240 think it all falls on the coaching staff. I think there's times where, 281 00:16:22,720 --> 00:16:26,919 you know, late when defensive coverages change, you need to be able to 282 00:16:26,960 --> 00:16:30,399 pass out of a trap or you know, get the ball to the spots 283 00:16:30,399 --> 00:16:33,879 and the floor that are the most obvious, and sometimes they just flat out 284 00:16:33,879 --> 00:16:37,840 don't do that. So that has impacted as touches. But I do think 285 00:16:37,840 --> 00:16:40,799 over this, like last little stretch here, since that heat game happens, 286 00:16:40,840 --> 00:16:44,120 his elbow touches and his post ups are up. Like last night when they 287 00:16:44,159 --> 00:16:47,200 played the Pistons, which you know, the Pistons have obviously lost thirteen straight 288 00:16:47,240 --> 00:16:49,799 games. Take this for what you will, but the last team that the 289 00:16:49,799 --> 00:16:53,159 Pistons beat was also the Pacers, and if you watch that game back in 290 00:16:53,200 --> 00:16:56,919 the fourth quarter, the Pacers scored ten points over the final ten minutes. 291 00:16:56,279 --> 00:17:00,440 The Pistons were blitzing the heck out of them, and they weren't getting the 292 00:17:00,480 --> 00:17:03,079 ball to where it needed to be, which is a common trend over these 293 00:17:03,359 --> 00:17:07,720 fourth quarters in close games. Last night, it was evident, you know, 294 00:17:07,759 --> 00:17:10,440 and Lloyd Pierce is obviously filling in for Rick Carlisle, so maybe that 295 00:17:10,440 --> 00:17:14,039 would have been a slightly different approach. But they posted sa bonus by my 296 00:17:14,240 --> 00:17:17,720 raw account seven times, like on the night they posted him nine. He's 297 00:17:17,759 --> 00:17:22,480 not even averaging anywhere close to that for the season. So the fact that 298 00:17:22,480 --> 00:17:25,319 they were willing to play inside out and get and find out, oh hey, 299 00:17:25,319 --> 00:17:27,039 you know, post gravity can have some value. We can actually get 300 00:17:27,079 --> 00:17:30,119 open threes, and we can get layups and cuts, and he can get 301 00:17:30,160 --> 00:17:33,799 some shots. Like I think that there is value through playing inside out and 302 00:17:33,799 --> 00:17:37,640 getting more paint touch threes, whether that's a bonus in the post or it's 303 00:17:37,640 --> 00:17:41,839 the guards actually getting into the paint rather than doing some of the like more 304 00:17:41,920 --> 00:17:45,599 dinking around the perimeter that they've done in some of these late game situations. 305 00:17:45,680 --> 00:17:49,519 But I think the answer the long question is that some of it has been 306 00:17:49,559 --> 00:17:55,240 stylistic and wanting to have a reduction and some of playing through him in the 307 00:17:55,279 --> 00:17:59,400 post and in other interior situations. I think early some of it was wanting 308 00:17:59,400 --> 00:18:02,039 to explore or what Miles could do, and I do think some of it 309 00:18:02,119 --> 00:18:07,759 just lands with the guards since let's say the Pacers have been uncharacteristically thrown into 310 00:18:07,799 --> 00:18:10,559 the national discourse, at least on a level where they're not usually in. 311 00:18:10,599 --> 00:18:14,880 There has there been like a biggest misconception about Sabonus that you've noticed as people 312 00:18:14,920 --> 00:18:18,119 either talk about his value to the pacers or if they're framing it in sort 313 00:18:18,119 --> 00:18:21,279 of a trademarked type of way. Well, I mean, yeah, I 314 00:18:21,319 --> 00:18:23,559 think somewhat with both of the bigs, because I think that they both even 315 00:18:23,839 --> 00:18:29,160 even locally, they both get looked at such monoliths that all that they do 316 00:18:29,319 --> 00:18:30,720 is at you know, the polar opposite end of the floor. And I 317 00:18:30,759 --> 00:18:34,599 think it's been pretty obvious early on that they've each improved, at least in 318 00:18:34,720 --> 00:18:40,400 small ways at the end of the floor that they're not necessarily known for the 319 00:18:40,559 --> 00:18:45,200 bonus. Like last year, maybe Orker tried on occasion to hedge with him 320 00:18:45,200 --> 00:18:48,440 and it was a disaster, like you could not do it. And this 321 00:18:48,519 --> 00:18:51,519 year they're doing that pretty regularly to keep more of the action away from the 322 00:18:51,599 --> 00:18:55,319 rim, because you obviously don't want him to be having everything funneled at him 323 00:18:55,359 --> 00:18:57,480 like Nate Bjorker was doing for the majority of last year. With their overly 324 00:18:57,480 --> 00:19:02,160 aggressive defense on the perimeter. I think he's held up with that pretty well. 325 00:19:02,240 --> 00:19:04,400 I mean the other night against the Bucks, they were getting split pretty 326 00:19:04,400 --> 00:19:07,960 often, but their defense overall just wasn't very good. Drew Holiday was really 327 00:19:08,039 --> 00:19:11,519 ripping them up. But he's done that. I think that his straight ups 328 00:19:11,559 --> 00:19:15,480 around the rim, what he's done in transition has been better his overall. 329 00:19:15,519 --> 00:19:19,119 I think his rim numbers are probably somewhat comparable to last year, though they 330 00:19:19,119 --> 00:19:25,240 are on lower volume. But I think that he's just he's having more impact 331 00:19:25,279 --> 00:19:26,799 on the ball when he's in picker and roll situations than what you would have 332 00:19:26,839 --> 00:19:30,839 seen last year. So and just having him a lot of times he has 333 00:19:30,880 --> 00:19:33,640 to defend pretty tough matchups and some of that they've had to get you know, 334 00:19:33,720 --> 00:19:37,160 creative with when they guard the Sixers, like they eventually had to move 335 00:19:37,240 --> 00:19:40,319 him off to buy his Harris and put him on Danny Green and George and 336 00:19:40,400 --> 00:19:42,319 Yang. But there's been other games where he's had really nice possessions, whether 337 00:19:42,319 --> 00:19:45,599 it was down the stretch against Karl Anthony Towns the game that they beat the 338 00:19:45,640 --> 00:19:48,400 Miami Heat, I think his defense was pretty wides out that entire game, 339 00:19:48,440 --> 00:19:52,319 And same with Miles, Like you can point at things that offensively he has 340 00:19:52,359 --> 00:19:55,960 gotten better at, and it's felt like some of the national discourse has been 341 00:19:56,000 --> 00:19:57,720 like just looking at them as one way players, and I don't think that's 342 00:19:57,839 --> 00:20:02,839 entirely fair. But also like the idea that they're building around the wrong big 343 00:20:03,319 --> 00:20:06,480 like oh, they need to stop building around Sabonus and build around Miles, 344 00:20:06,519 --> 00:20:08,359 like they're not building this roster is not built around either one of them, 345 00:20:08,400 --> 00:20:12,960 Like this roster is not built around Sabonus currently. So I don't really understand 346 00:20:14,000 --> 00:20:17,720 that particular narrative either. So I mean, you can have your opinions on 347 00:20:17,759 --> 00:20:19,599 which way you think that they should go moving forward, but I don't think 348 00:20:19,599 --> 00:20:25,119 that this roster was constructed by Kevin Pritchard of you know, Sabonus is our 349 00:20:25,160 --> 00:20:27,759 best player and we're going to find guys that fit the way that he needs 350 00:20:27,799 --> 00:20:30,319 to play. Like if that were the case, Doug McDermot would still be 351 00:20:30,319 --> 00:20:33,000 on the team. And I understand the luxury tax implications there, but like 352 00:20:33,279 --> 00:20:37,400 if this was really with Sabonus in mind, Doug McDermot would still be on 353 00:20:37,440 --> 00:20:41,960 the team. Like, right, I thought the Sabonus at center minutes, 354 00:20:42,039 --> 00:20:45,599 we're getting a lot better this year, and then I was in prep of 355 00:20:45,680 --> 00:20:48,920 the podcast, I was looking at them and like, the raw statistics are 356 00:20:48,960 --> 00:20:52,319 not really that much better than last year, but the rim protection during that 357 00:20:52,359 --> 00:20:55,640 time is better, and they seem to just be getting burned by like really 358 00:20:55,640 --> 00:20:59,559 hot shooting from on long twos and above the break threes. And so is 359 00:20:59,599 --> 00:21:03,119 there any element to that, like what is happening in those minutes to or 360 00:21:03,200 --> 00:21:07,480 is it that just sort of like a unlucky development. Again, just the 361 00:21:07,519 --> 00:21:10,960 opponent above the break three point shooting during those minutes has been absurd. I 362 00:21:11,000 --> 00:21:14,960 think it's almost forty percent or something ridiculous, right, So, I mean, 363 00:21:15,039 --> 00:21:17,640 some of that's going to be a little bit hard to judge because during 364 00:21:17,680 --> 00:21:21,079 the earlier portion of the season, since you know, before O'Shea got back 365 00:21:21,119 --> 00:21:23,599 in the rotation, they were playing Goga and Sabonis together, So it wouldn't 366 00:21:23,599 --> 00:21:29,000 necessarily be like Sabonis at five. It would be more Goga at five. 367 00:21:29,400 --> 00:21:30,880 And like I said, when Sabonus is out there by himself, they pretty 368 00:21:30,880 --> 00:21:33,720 typically head So you're going to be giving up threes, that's I mean, 369 00:21:33,759 --> 00:21:37,519 that's something you're going to surrender if you're not scrambling really well out of that 370 00:21:37,559 --> 00:21:41,400 with your lowman rotation. I mean, typically it would be more corner threes 371 00:21:41,440 --> 00:21:44,000 than above the break. But yeah, I mean some of that just gonna 372 00:21:44,039 --> 00:21:45,559 be noise. I mean that's kind of what's funny too. Like the pacers 373 00:21:45,559 --> 00:21:48,400 are pointing out a lot, and I do think that the Turner Sabonis pairing 374 00:21:48,440 --> 00:21:52,319 in general, like you can see that there has been improvements just because each 375 00:21:52,319 --> 00:21:55,359 of them has gotten somewhat better, but like they're talking about how their net 376 00:21:55,440 --> 00:21:57,480 ratings the best that it's been and that you know, this is work game. 377 00:21:57,519 --> 00:22:00,480 We don't need to make changes or whatever. I'm like, okay, 378 00:22:00,519 --> 00:22:03,000 but a lot of that, Like you kind of need to look at opponent 379 00:22:03,079 --> 00:22:06,559 three point percentage because the last I looked at that, I think opponents are 380 00:22:06,559 --> 00:22:10,319 shooting like thirty one or thirty two percent from three when turns a bonus around 381 00:22:10,359 --> 00:22:11,960 the court together, and last year that would have been closer to like thirty 382 00:22:11,960 --> 00:22:15,440 eight or thirty nine percent. So that's a pretty vast difference. Like I'm 383 00:22:15,440 --> 00:22:18,599 not saying that makes up for the entirety of why the pairing is looked different, 384 00:22:18,599 --> 00:22:21,759 but that's always the first thing that I kind of look at when you 385 00:22:21,799 --> 00:22:26,200 look and start evaluating on off numbers and line up data. So if opponents 386 00:22:26,559 --> 00:22:30,759 start progressing closer to what they were shooting last year, I'm not sure that 387 00:22:30,799 --> 00:22:33,599 the pairing looks quite as good. But they have been better in the double 388 00:22:33,640 --> 00:22:37,400 big minutes than they have with either one of them just out on the court 389 00:22:37,440 --> 00:22:42,480 by themselves. From a net rating standpoint. As someone who is forever clung 390 00:22:42,559 --> 00:22:45,799 to the fact that Carris LeVert is or is going to be very good, 391 00:22:47,279 --> 00:22:49,640 this season has been up and down. I think he's probably playing through the 392 00:22:49,680 --> 00:22:53,799 best offensive stretch individually for him right now. When you look at the last 393 00:22:53,839 --> 00:22:57,680 six or seven games, what have you just noticed sort of about his season 394 00:22:57,759 --> 00:23:02,720 that maybe contributes to the to the roller coaster that he's on. And is 395 00:23:02,759 --> 00:23:06,559 it an actual larger issue of of fit or could it been Elmanov, like, 396 00:23:06,599 --> 00:23:07,880 hey, look at what he's you know, still sort of trying to 397 00:23:07,880 --> 00:23:11,799 come back from last year. Yeah, I mean, I don't think it 398 00:23:11,880 --> 00:23:15,920 was helpful that he had the back fracture before the season even started, and 399 00:23:15,960 --> 00:23:18,319 then obviously like the conditioning that he had said he worked to regain over the 400 00:23:18,359 --> 00:23:22,000 summer, You know, some of that's going away when you're not involved in 401 00:23:22,000 --> 00:23:23,440 training camp or anything, and you're having to work your way back on the 402 00:23:23,440 --> 00:23:26,960 court. I felt like up until you know, probably about a week or 403 00:23:27,000 --> 00:23:30,119 two ago, he still looked like he wasn't moving super well to me, 404 00:23:30,559 --> 00:23:33,559 where it looked like, you know, when he needs to get an extra 405 00:23:33,599 --> 00:23:36,480 burst, he just doesn't quite have it. You would see him a lot 406 00:23:36,480 --> 00:23:38,039 on the bench, sitting there with like a back device on, and then 407 00:23:38,039 --> 00:23:42,440 he did miss subsequent games after he had come back with back soreness that led 408 00:23:42,480 --> 00:23:45,079 you to believe that was going to be somewhat of a lingering issue. So 409 00:23:45,640 --> 00:23:49,400 I would take all that into account, but there are times where it feels 410 00:23:49,440 --> 00:23:55,160 like he's very separatist from the offense, is the best way I would put 411 00:23:55,160 --> 00:24:02,039 it that. Yeah, Yeah, I mean the game that they lost handidly 412 00:24:02,200 --> 00:24:06,240 to the Bucks when Jannie was still healthy. Before this week, like Brogden 413 00:24:06,400 --> 00:24:08,880 was having to Guardianis because their attempts to have a big Guardianis in the prior 414 00:24:08,920 --> 00:24:14,799 matchup were rather disastrous. So Brogden is doing that and they're doubling, so 415 00:24:14,839 --> 00:24:17,480 they're running more of the offense through Karris, and when you do that, 416 00:24:18,559 --> 00:24:21,680 it doesn't feel like the ball is going to flow out from him and do 417 00:24:21,799 --> 00:24:25,519 much for anybody else other than getting himself going. I mean, even last 418 00:24:25,599 --> 00:24:27,839 night they didn't have They obviously didn't have Brogden with achilles soreness, and then 419 00:24:27,839 --> 00:24:30,960 t J McConnell's out for maybe who knows how long, seems like maybe the 420 00:24:32,000 --> 00:24:37,000 season. So they have Karris and Brad Wanamaker really heavily staggered, and Karas 421 00:24:37,000 --> 00:24:40,039 finishes with like thirty points and five assists. His assists weren't really coming at 422 00:24:40,039 --> 00:24:42,039 the half court though, And a lot of what you're watching him do last 423 00:24:42,119 --> 00:24:45,200 night is you know, the pistons are switching, he's attacking that, or 424 00:24:45,240 --> 00:24:48,079 if they did start to double, then they just weren't bringing a screen, 425 00:24:48,079 --> 00:24:52,160 and he's attacking in isolation. Like it's great that he scored as efficiently as 426 00:24:52,160 --> 00:24:53,960 he did last night, I'm not convinced that's going to happen, you know, 427 00:24:55,119 --> 00:24:59,119 night in and night out consistently. So it wasn't necessarily that he was 428 00:24:59,119 --> 00:25:02,240 getting anybody else involved. And I think my main quibble with him is he 429 00:25:02,279 --> 00:25:06,920 needs to find a better balance on how he's using screens. He loves to 430 00:25:07,000 --> 00:25:10,559 reject screens, especially if they're coming from his right side, like he wants 431 00:25:10,599 --> 00:25:12,440 to get to his left and go away from that. I think he needs 432 00:25:12,440 --> 00:25:17,680 to do a little bit better job assessing how quickly the screener is coming to 433 00:25:17,759 --> 00:25:19,599 him, because a lot of coaches would tell you that the screen rejections should 434 00:25:19,599 --> 00:25:22,480 be your number one option all the time. I mean, look at the 435 00:25:22,519 --> 00:25:25,640 Pacers down the stretch of the fourth quarter against the heat. Karis Lavert gave 436 00:25:25,720 --> 00:25:27,799 up two screen rejections and cause their defense to have all kinds of problems, 437 00:25:27,799 --> 00:25:32,079 and Sabonus ended up blowing a gasket. Like, your defense is going to 438 00:25:32,119 --> 00:25:33,839 be on the opposite side. It's going to force people. The BIG's going 439 00:25:33,880 --> 00:25:37,640 to be out of position, if whether that's a drop or a hedge or 440 00:25:37,680 --> 00:25:38,920 a switch. Like, if you give up the screen rejection, you're kind 441 00:25:38,920 --> 00:25:44,000 of screwed, But you've got to judge how quickly. Like if Sabonus is 442 00:25:44,039 --> 00:25:47,119 approaching quickly, then that's a great time to reject the screen because the big 443 00:25:47,200 --> 00:25:48,720 is going to be also coming quickly. They're going to be off balance, 444 00:25:48,759 --> 00:25:52,440 and then their ability to drop a foot back and get in front of you 445 00:25:52,519 --> 00:25:55,240 is not as good. Now, if he's coming up slowly and you're going 446 00:25:55,279 --> 00:25:57,599 to stand there and think about it and jab step and jab step, and 447 00:25:57,640 --> 00:26:00,960 then you're going to reject it. You're not really gaining anything there other than 448 00:26:02,000 --> 00:26:03,920 just driving into a crowd and down the stretch. In that Warriors game, 449 00:26:04,359 --> 00:26:10,079 Draymond Green was not guarding Miles Turner unless Miles Turner was in the ballside corner. 450 00:26:10,400 --> 00:26:12,839 So they're running like horns twist where essentially, you know, as you 451 00:26:12,839 --> 00:26:15,920 would know in horns, Miles and Sabonis are both elbows. Miles sets the 452 00:26:15,920 --> 00:26:19,640 first screen, Carris goes off of it one way, and then Myles exits 453 00:26:19,680 --> 00:26:22,359 to the corner. Sabonis sets the other screen, and you're supposed to twist 454 00:26:22,359 --> 00:26:25,759 back off of it and go to the right side of the floor, where 455 00:26:25,759 --> 00:26:29,039 Miles would then be in the corner, so that Draymond would actually stay attached 456 00:26:29,039 --> 00:26:32,079 to him. He kept wanting to go away from that and just go left 457 00:26:32,480 --> 00:26:33,839 into the crowd, where Draymond was like, oh, well, now I 458 00:26:33,880 --> 00:26:37,400 can roam all the way off of Miles, and on the last possession they 459 00:26:37,400 --> 00:26:41,039 didn't run that, but then Carris ended up losing his footing while he was 460 00:26:41,039 --> 00:26:44,240 attempting to do that. So I would imagine that the coaching staff. I 461 00:26:44,240 --> 00:26:47,599 don't know this, but it's probably telling him like, you can do that 462 00:26:48,240 --> 00:26:51,440 sometimes, but you need to judge what's happening on the court, and also 463 00:26:51,519 --> 00:26:53,599 you need to let the offense do more of the work for you, because 464 00:26:53,599 --> 00:26:56,640 he does that in Spain. Sometimes I just think it's gonna be a little 465 00:26:56,680 --> 00:27:00,279 bit too much where then if you're not you the screen and you get yourself 466 00:27:00,279 --> 00:27:03,000 into trouble, it's just an offensive reset. If you use the screen, 467 00:27:03,039 --> 00:27:07,000 then you're creating separation. You can actually get Miles or Sabonis on the roll 468 00:27:07,319 --> 00:27:11,200 or make another pass out of that. So yeah, I just think that 469 00:27:11,240 --> 00:27:15,440 his playmaking in general has regressed a slight bit. I think he's a capable 470 00:27:15,480 --> 00:27:19,240 passer. I just don't think he's necessarily and I don't this is gonna sound 471 00:27:19,279 --> 00:27:22,000 harsh. I just don't think he's always a willing pastor, and that's shown 472 00:27:22,079 --> 00:27:25,480 up in some games here, because like even in the Bucks game, there 473 00:27:25,519 --> 00:27:29,240 was one possession where Sabonis was setting a corner pin in four miles And this 474 00:27:29,279 --> 00:27:30,839 is part of the reason why I do understand where Miles is coming from, 475 00:27:30,839 --> 00:27:36,000 because his teammates could find him more on occasion or Sabonis is waving like three 476 00:27:36,039 --> 00:27:37,880 times behind him, like, hey, throw him the ball, throw him 477 00:27:37,920 --> 00:27:41,920 the ball, and Carris takes goes over and takes a very tough pull up 478 00:27:41,960 --> 00:27:45,720 baseline two, which he did happen to make. But that's not the right 479 00:27:45,720 --> 00:27:48,640 play, like you need to make the right play. So I think that's 480 00:27:48,680 --> 00:27:53,559 his next step moving forward. Would this, and I guess based off what 481 00:27:53,559 --> 00:27:56,000 you said, the answer this might actually be no, but like would a 482 00:27:56,039 --> 00:28:00,640 way to sort of ass wage what he's doing be too. I don't want 483 00:28:00,640 --> 00:28:03,279 to say have him come off the bench because that seems stark, but like 484 00:28:03,359 --> 00:28:08,680 stagger him more heavily from Brogden and sabonus with McConnell out now where it's like 485 00:28:08,720 --> 00:28:11,839 my thought process, it seems like they prefer to start if they're healthy, 486 00:28:11,920 --> 00:28:15,839 justin holiday over Chris da Arte, or maybe would it makes sense to give 487 00:28:15,920 --> 00:28:19,559 Chris da Arte more run with those other four than it would cast the birds, 488 00:28:19,559 --> 00:28:22,559 so he has more of his own me time and then maybe those things 489 00:28:22,599 --> 00:28:27,400 like him just rejecting screens aren't as exacerbated by having, you know, if 490 00:28:27,680 --> 00:28:32,359 you're leading bench heavier units, right. I looked at those numbers this morning 491 00:28:32,400 --> 00:28:36,240 and I think Carris has only played about thirty four percent of his minutes without 492 00:28:36,279 --> 00:28:40,359 Brogden on the court, So yeah, I mean, I'm not opposed to 493 00:28:40,359 --> 00:28:42,279 that. I think that if, like obviously Carris's name has been in trade 494 00:28:42,319 --> 00:28:45,599 rumors as well, I think if he was traded to a team that was 495 00:28:45,640 --> 00:28:48,880 performing better than the Pacers are right now, they would probably be considering him 496 00:28:48,880 --> 00:28:52,359 as like a six man bench juicer type role. I don't know that, 497 00:28:52,440 --> 00:28:56,480 but I could see that logic, because he is somebody who needs to have 498 00:28:56,680 --> 00:29:00,759 like the ball in his hands to the three of a star, but isn't 499 00:29:00,799 --> 00:29:06,680 going to produce I don't think star numbers for you night in and night out. 500 00:29:06,759 --> 00:29:10,200 Like he's not going to attack an isolation and score thirty points like he 501 00:29:10,240 --> 00:29:12,920 did against the Pistons every game. But if he's in the bench, you're 502 00:29:14,000 --> 00:29:17,160 probably more willing to let him do some of that and some of it too. 503 00:29:17,480 --> 00:29:19,240 It's just like I think that Rick Carlisle's preference would be to have like 504 00:29:19,599 --> 00:29:23,519 a team full of like point five second guys where you're making decisions that quickly, 505 00:29:23,960 --> 00:29:27,559 and Carris really likes to dance a little bit more with the basketball, 506 00:29:27,720 --> 00:29:30,839 So I think that's probably a little bit easier. Like I don't think that 507 00:29:30,839 --> 00:29:33,720 they'll move him completely to the bench, but I see your point that, 508 00:29:34,240 --> 00:29:38,640 especially with t J. McConnell out, Like this happened in Sacramento where Brogden 509 00:29:38,799 --> 00:29:41,720 was out and they started McConnell and LeVert together, and it was kind of 510 00:29:41,759 --> 00:29:45,480 like, you know, it probably would have been better just to start another 511 00:29:45,519 --> 00:29:48,240 one of the shooters and continue to bring McConnell off the bench because Brad Wanamaker 512 00:29:48,400 --> 00:29:52,279 has certain moments, but some of that has been pretty rough. So just 513 00:29:52,319 --> 00:29:56,519 like last night, they started Lavert and Wanamaker together, then you really don't 514 00:29:56,559 --> 00:29:59,480 have anybody else to run the bench. You know, you have to separate 515 00:29:59,519 --> 00:30:03,160 them out. But it does seem like it's been the coaching staff's overall preference 516 00:30:03,240 --> 00:30:06,880 that Carris is going to play a lot of his minutes with Sabonis and Brogden 517 00:30:07,039 --> 00:30:10,279 plays a little bit more with Turner, Like a lot of Lavert's minutes have 518 00:30:10,400 --> 00:30:12,240 matched up, even in bench alignments when Sabonis is out on the court, 519 00:30:12,240 --> 00:30:15,440 because I think he wants to get downhill and have that as an option. 520 00:30:15,480 --> 00:30:19,880 I think that's more his preference. But yeah, I think that if McConnell's 521 00:30:19,880 --> 00:30:22,519 going to be out, it makes sense to spread out a few more of 522 00:30:22,960 --> 00:30:27,799 Brogden and Lavert's minutes so that they can both have a little bit more opportunity 523 00:30:27,839 --> 00:30:32,440 to handle. And see how Duarte matches with some of that. I mean, 524 00:30:32,440 --> 00:30:36,000 he had a pretty rough game against Milwaukee himself and then had some moments 525 00:30:36,079 --> 00:30:38,880 last night that were a little bit more mixed would have been your rookie year 526 00:30:38,920 --> 00:30:44,759 impressions of Duarte. And then also is the two man game between him and 527 00:30:44,799 --> 00:30:48,119 Sabonis, Like can that become a thing? I was watching Cameron if he 528 00:30:48,200 --> 00:30:49,839 was the Wizards of the mass game, but whatever I saw and maybe go 529 00:30:49,880 --> 00:30:55,279 back and watch every single Sabonis Duarte connection on the season from either end, 530 00:30:55,640 --> 00:30:57,880 and they're just it's not the same as what he was doing with dugm Thermot 531 00:30:57,960 --> 00:31:02,319 by any stretch. Like there does seem to be like some of that type 532 00:31:02,319 --> 00:31:06,880 of synergy between those two, especially when Sabonus is the one who's who's diming 533 00:31:06,920 --> 00:31:11,920 to Duarte, right And Duarte has mentioned in postgame interviews that he really likes 534 00:31:11,960 --> 00:31:15,440 playing with Sabonis for that reason and that they're also close off the court. 535 00:31:15,960 --> 00:31:18,799 But yeah, here's here's how I will tell you that you can tell that 536 00:31:18,839 --> 00:31:22,519 it's starting to grow and get better. So last night there's a possession where 537 00:31:23,039 --> 00:31:26,839 Duarte is going to come off a handoff from Sabonus, And here's how you 538 00:31:26,839 --> 00:31:29,599 know. When Sabonus is comfortable with the person he's running with, it's a 539 00:31:29,599 --> 00:31:33,279 completely live ball bounce handoff, like he's gonna he's just gonna bounce the player 540 00:31:33,400 --> 00:31:37,799 into into the handoff. He's not actually going to physically hold his arm out 541 00:31:37,799 --> 00:31:40,880 there and control it because he knows that he's comfortable that that player is going 542 00:31:40,920 --> 00:31:44,599 to zoom into it quick enough that they can just go on a live without 543 00:31:44,599 --> 00:31:48,519 the player risking knifing through the defender. So he does that with Duarte. 544 00:31:48,559 --> 00:31:52,599 It's a live bounce handoff. Duarte gets that, the guy goes under and 545 00:31:52,680 --> 00:31:55,960 Duarte holds it for a second and his patient is like, Okay, I'm 546 00:31:56,000 --> 00:31:59,240 going to reject that and go back the other way, and then they switch 547 00:31:59,319 --> 00:32:01,640 it, and he notices the switch and throws it over the top to Sabonis 548 00:32:02,039 --> 00:32:06,279 to get a shot at the rim. That I think is a pretty good 549 00:32:06,279 --> 00:32:07,960 indicator that both of them are coming. And the other thing that you can 550 00:32:07,960 --> 00:32:13,160 notice with Sabonus when the chemistry is coming. Is Duarte a few times lately 551 00:32:13,519 --> 00:32:16,480 has curled all the way around for the late pass, like if somebody does 552 00:32:16,519 --> 00:32:20,960 overplay it, he can continues the progression of his cut all the way to 553 00:32:20,960 --> 00:32:23,240 the rim and Sabonus will throw it up over the top. So those are 554 00:32:23,279 --> 00:32:27,920 two more like what you're saying more Doug McDermott, like plays that you would 555 00:32:27,960 --> 00:32:31,000 have seen a year ago that wasn't necessarily there early on. I think for 556 00:32:31,039 --> 00:32:35,519 me personally, if they're going to have Duarte doing more, and I wouldn't 557 00:32:35,519 --> 00:32:37,920 even necessarily call it primary, just more in actual pick and roll when he's 558 00:32:37,960 --> 00:32:42,359 on ball, I think that there's times where there's hedging and this kind of 559 00:32:42,359 --> 00:32:44,960 applies to all the guards where he needs to get off the ball quicker. 560 00:32:45,440 --> 00:32:49,119 And then also when he's getting downhill he holds onto the ball. I would 561 00:32:49,160 --> 00:32:52,920 say sometimes a beat too long when he needs to be able to find Sabonis 562 00:32:52,920 --> 00:32:54,480 on the short roll, and then he gets too deep and is having to 563 00:32:54,480 --> 00:32:58,200 pass it back over his head and it gets deflected. He had some of 564 00:32:58,240 --> 00:33:00,880 those problems against Milwaukee too, But I mean overall, that's asking a lot, 565 00:33:00,920 --> 00:33:05,160 I think for duartavis early, and you wouldn't necessarily need that if all 566 00:33:05,240 --> 00:33:07,480 their players were healthy at the same time, I'm pretty pleased overall with this 567 00:33:07,599 --> 00:33:13,880 secondary playmaking. If they bring him off of off ball motion, and I 568 00:33:13,920 --> 00:33:16,400 think defensively he gives another element. I don't think it's perfect, but they 569 00:33:16,440 --> 00:33:20,279 did have moments down the stretch against the Hawks where he was just flat out 570 00:33:20,359 --> 00:33:23,319 face guarding Trey Young that I thought were pretty solid, So I think it's 571 00:33:23,319 --> 00:33:27,559 a really good pick. It's better obviously than what they've been doing recently in 572 00:33:27,599 --> 00:33:30,000 the draft. It was a pretty rough day the other day when it was 573 00:33:30,000 --> 00:33:31,759 announced that TJ. Leaf had signed in China at the same time as they 574 00:33:31,759 --> 00:33:36,920 were assigning Goga to the G League. So when you think of it within 575 00:33:37,039 --> 00:33:40,279 that context, you're just happy that Duarte's out there playing and actually getting reps. 576 00:33:42,359 --> 00:33:45,240 Yeah, I mean, especially in his first year too. I'm reframing 577 00:33:45,240 --> 00:33:47,599 this question because he played a bunch over the past seven or eight games, 578 00:33:47,599 --> 00:33:52,400 but the oh Brissette experience that is, like, he is such a helpful 579 00:33:52,400 --> 00:33:55,240 player and as someone who makes you I think it is, at least for 580 00:33:55,279 --> 00:33:59,480 many basketball fans A lot of the times we're conditioned to just zero in on 581 00:33:59,519 --> 00:34:01,960 the ball, like whether it's defense or even offense. And he made camera 582 00:34:02,079 --> 00:34:05,599 which game was he made like a really nifty pass to a cutting to our 583 00:34:05,759 --> 00:34:07,840 day the other night. But like, Brissette made me want to watch stuff 584 00:34:07,880 --> 00:34:10,920 away from the ball with the way he'll defend or some of the stuff that 585 00:34:10,920 --> 00:34:15,320 he's going to do on offense. And so what's that like, is the 586 00:34:15,519 --> 00:34:20,599 what encapsulates the Oshe Brissette experience and how actually important is he to this team 587 00:34:20,599 --> 00:34:23,280 moving forward? Yeah, I was somewhat surprised early on in the season and 588 00:34:23,320 --> 00:34:28,079 even in preseason it seemed like Isaiah Jackson was getting those minutes at the backup 589 00:34:28,119 --> 00:34:30,920 four, and then when the season started, Isaiah Jackson was kind of out 590 00:34:30,920 --> 00:34:34,639 of it, and Brissette, I don't believe played on opening night, and 591 00:34:34,639 --> 00:34:37,599 then he did in that game that I mentioned earlier with the he was getting 592 00:34:37,599 --> 00:34:39,480 the minutes, and then he was back out of the rotation again. So 593 00:34:39,599 --> 00:34:43,239 I was a little bit surprised that he wasn't a more regular fixture, but 594 00:34:43,280 --> 00:34:45,800 I think that they were just trying to get minutes for Goba anyway that they 595 00:34:45,840 --> 00:34:47,760 could. But yeah, I think you bring up a really good point. 596 00:34:47,800 --> 00:34:51,400 He might be their best cutter, one of their best cutters. I mean, 597 00:34:51,559 --> 00:34:53,360 Justin does a lot with overall off ball motion, but in terms of 598 00:34:53,400 --> 00:34:58,719 like forty five cuts and not spoiling the spacing and knowing where to find gaps, 599 00:34:58,719 --> 00:35:01,159 O'Shea's very good at that. Then defensively, he's very good as the 600 00:35:01,199 --> 00:35:05,519 low man, which they don't have a lot of people that can viably serve 601 00:35:05,599 --> 00:35:09,840 that role. He moves so well sideline to sideline and contesting off ball. 602 00:35:09,880 --> 00:35:14,400 He's kind of like Robert Covington in that way. A little bit is who 603 00:35:14,400 --> 00:35:16,079 I would compare him to, Like, I don't know that I think that, 604 00:35:16,159 --> 00:35:21,360 Like he's not great defending bigger people in the post or necessarily always on 605 00:35:21,480 --> 00:35:24,320 ball, but the stuff that he does away from the ball defensively isn't something 606 00:35:24,360 --> 00:35:29,360 that they readily have and other people on the rosters. So yeah, and 607 00:35:29,920 --> 00:35:31,079 he just does a lot of what you're saying, like a lot of energy 608 00:35:31,119 --> 00:35:34,519 moments. I clip some of them the other day because like it's not him 609 00:35:34,519 --> 00:35:37,360 actually grabbing an offensive rebound, but he will crash in hard and tap the 610 00:35:37,400 --> 00:35:40,800 ball and keep it alive so his teammates can still retain it, and that 611 00:35:40,880 --> 00:35:44,800 was an element that was missing. Like if you ask, like what's changed 612 00:35:44,840 --> 00:35:46,960 over these last like five or six games in comparison to how they look before 613 00:35:46,960 --> 00:35:51,679 that heat game, Like their overall energy is different, and he's part of 614 00:35:51,679 --> 00:35:53,559 that, Like he's part of juicing that in a way that like I think 615 00:35:53,599 --> 00:35:58,639 fans sometimes think that Lance Stevenson did, only some of what O'Shea does is 616 00:35:58,679 --> 00:36:02,800 like a little bit more contained than what Lance did. So I think that's 617 00:36:02,800 --> 00:36:07,639 an element of it. Now that we're like one third of the way through 618 00:36:07,679 --> 00:36:13,199 the season, are there any observations good or bad of Rick Carlisle's coaching job, 619 00:36:13,239 --> 00:36:16,159 Like any material changes to this team that you like, any material changes 620 00:36:16,199 --> 00:36:20,840 that you really think need to be shifted up. Why have they not asked 621 00:36:20,880 --> 00:36:23,760 you to be a consultant for this team yet? Dropping so many smart tidbits 622 00:36:23,880 --> 00:36:29,320 right now? I think that, Like I mean, early on, I 623 00:36:29,360 --> 00:36:31,639 was pretty critical, to be honest, Like I didn't really understand some of 624 00:36:31,639 --> 00:36:36,159 the Sabonis stuff and some of the late game stuff of you know, not 625 00:36:36,199 --> 00:36:38,159 wanting to leverage like we're gonna stay big, but we're not going to leverage 626 00:36:38,159 --> 00:36:40,280 our size. And again, like I've said, this many times. I'm 627 00:36:40,280 --> 00:36:44,360 not shack on TNT. I don't think that you need to be, you 628 00:36:44,400 --> 00:36:47,960 know, grinding out possessions and posting people every single play. But also like, 629 00:36:49,000 --> 00:36:52,039 there is value in doing what you did against the Detroit Pistons last night, 630 00:36:52,039 --> 00:36:54,480 against a smaller front line when you have Sabonis being as good as he 631 00:36:54,679 --> 00:36:58,920 is being able to pass out of those traps, especially when Detroit was being 632 00:36:58,960 --> 00:37:00,239 as predictable as they were in the way that they were doing it. They're 633 00:37:00,280 --> 00:37:05,039 passing from the are doubling from the pastor every single time, so that should 634 00:37:05,039 --> 00:37:07,559 be a pretty easy read to make. But yeah, I was critical of 635 00:37:07,639 --> 00:37:10,280 that. And then also I was critical because he kind of, you know, 636 00:37:10,360 --> 00:37:13,119 pointed out earlier in the year, like, well, we need to 637 00:37:13,159 --> 00:37:16,039 be a team that changes defense into offense. And he's very much focused on 638 00:37:16,079 --> 00:37:20,039 the defense, which I mean they needed to be after last year they had 639 00:37:20,079 --> 00:37:22,480 a lot of problems on defense. But then it was like, okay, 640 00:37:22,519 --> 00:37:24,119 but you're not really letting them do it. Like, if you really want 641 00:37:24,159 --> 00:37:29,800 them to be able to turn into end and turn stops or defensive rebounds into 642 00:37:29,800 --> 00:37:32,320 offense, then quit having them hold the ball and quit calling so many plays 643 00:37:32,360 --> 00:37:38,119 but in two rock Carlisle's credit like over I would say probably since they did 644 00:37:38,199 --> 00:37:40,840 a little bit against the Pelicans and then went away from it, but since 645 00:37:40,840 --> 00:37:45,079 the win over the Knicks, pretty consistently they are not running very many plays 646 00:37:45,079 --> 00:37:47,480 at all, like they're going to you know, three or four pet actions 647 00:37:47,480 --> 00:37:51,599 and stuff out of spread and otherwise they're just playing a lot of random and 648 00:37:51,639 --> 00:37:53,800 I think that's been good for a lot of the players, and there's a 649 00:37:53,840 --> 00:37:57,719 balance there. I think some of the players on the team are a little 650 00:37:57,719 --> 00:38:00,079 bit better at playing read and react than others, but I think that a 651 00:38:00,079 --> 00:38:02,480 lot of them needed to have more freedom, and he's done that. I 652 00:38:02,519 --> 00:38:07,079 think that as far as like correcting some of their zone defense issues, I 653 00:38:07,119 --> 00:38:09,280 think that there's been progress on that front. But the exception of like some 654 00:38:09,320 --> 00:38:12,880 of the mishaps they had with one three one up in Portland, I think 655 00:38:12,920 --> 00:38:16,320 that they've done some interesting things triggering man out of his zone that are improvements. 656 00:38:16,400 --> 00:38:21,559 So the one thing I'll say there to summarize is I do give Rick 657 00:38:21,599 --> 00:38:24,239 Carlisle credit. I don't know that I necessarily think anyone on the rosters being 658 00:38:24,239 --> 00:38:29,599 maximized by the overall you know, kind of more egalitarian approach, and I'm 659 00:38:29,599 --> 00:38:32,119 not sure that I think that makes sense until you know, if you had 660 00:38:32,119 --> 00:38:36,920 TJ. Warren and Carossel were fully healthy and functioning to the degree that they 661 00:38:36,960 --> 00:38:40,760 could when they were last healthy, it might make more sense. But I 662 00:38:40,840 --> 00:38:47,079 give Carlisle credit overall because he hasn't been a complete stickler and continuing to do 663 00:38:47,119 --> 00:38:50,800 what he was doing, if that makes sense, like he could still be 664 00:38:50,840 --> 00:38:54,639 calling every play from the sideline or you know. It seemed to me that 665 00:38:54,639 --> 00:38:59,159 there was a pretty evident emphasis after that heat game when they played the Wizards 666 00:38:59,159 --> 00:39:01,400 that like, hey, we need to start finding the pocket pass, and 667 00:39:01,440 --> 00:39:05,159 we're going to work on that at practice to find other ways to do it, 668 00:39:05,320 --> 00:39:07,079 like if our guards can't do it. And this is why I was 669 00:39:07,079 --> 00:39:13,039 a little bit confusing late in that loss to the you know, shorthanded Bucks 670 00:39:13,079 --> 00:39:15,920 the other night, because in the first half you could tell that the coaching 671 00:39:15,960 --> 00:39:17,880 staff had worked with them, like, Okay, if our guards can't pass 672 00:39:17,960 --> 00:39:21,280 over the top and can't bend these traps, we're going to short it and 673 00:39:21,280 --> 00:39:23,079 pass it to the wing so that that wingman can then pass it to the 674 00:39:23,159 --> 00:39:25,440 roller and then we can still play out of the middle of the floor, 675 00:39:25,480 --> 00:39:29,519 and then by the fourth quarter they completely went away from that, which is 676 00:39:29,519 --> 00:39:31,639 where I would then again blame the guards a little bit more than what the 677 00:39:31,679 --> 00:39:35,559 coaching staff's doing, but I give them credit that they've at least been willing 678 00:39:35,599 --> 00:39:38,639 to adjust. It's kind of like, you know, Kevin Pritchard's comments on 679 00:39:38,679 --> 00:39:42,800 Twitter the other day. I don't think it was probably a good idea to 680 00:39:42,920 --> 00:39:45,519 say on record that you don't have a real manufactured star. But I give 681 00:39:45,599 --> 00:39:49,559 him a lot of credit because, just like with the Bjorkern situation, he 682 00:39:49,599 --> 00:39:52,800 doesn't double down when he's done something that you probably shouldn't have done, Like 683 00:39:52,880 --> 00:39:57,199 he came out and said, look, that was a mistake. I've told 684 00:39:57,199 --> 00:39:59,920 the players, I apologize to them. I still believe in the players, 685 00:40:00,519 --> 00:40:02,159 and I think that here lately, Rick Carlisle has done a little bit of 686 00:40:02,159 --> 00:40:06,239 that, even if I would continue to quibble a little bit with the way 687 00:40:06,840 --> 00:40:09,800 Sabonus and some of the other roles have shaken out. Do you have a 688 00:40:10,000 --> 00:40:15,880 singularly huge pet peeve or just something that's wrong with this team when you're looking 689 00:40:15,920 --> 00:40:19,239 at what they've done down the stretch of close games they are I'm sure you 690 00:40:19,320 --> 00:40:22,360 notice that I'm not sure for our listeners do They're two and eleven in games 691 00:40:22,360 --> 00:40:25,320 that are within one possession in the final two minutes. That's a lot of 692 00:40:25,360 --> 00:40:29,639 wins being left on the table. And this isn't even traditional crunch time, 693 00:40:29,719 --> 00:40:31,800 like it's one possession in the final two minutes. That's a ton of games 694 00:40:31,800 --> 00:40:36,440 that are within reach. What is some of the things are just the biggest 695 00:40:36,440 --> 00:40:40,159 thing that you've noticed about this team that contributes to such a demonstrably bad record 696 00:40:40,199 --> 00:40:45,159 in those situations. Right, So if I was, if I was a 697 00:40:45,239 --> 00:40:51,239 coaching staff listening to this, I will give from a different team. I 698 00:40:51,239 --> 00:40:53,920 would tell you that you should blitz the pacers as much as possible in those 699 00:40:53,920 --> 00:40:59,000 situations, and you should crowd sabonus and don't crowd him from the post entry 700 00:40:59,039 --> 00:41:02,559 passer he gets the ball, bring the traps more randomly like what Toronto does 701 00:41:02,639 --> 00:41:06,840 from different spots on the floor, because they're not going to react to it 702 00:41:06,840 --> 00:41:08,079 well. And that doesn't mean that they'll even gets the bonus the ball in 703 00:41:08,079 --> 00:41:12,039 those situations, but they might go away from him, just like when you 704 00:41:12,079 --> 00:41:14,760 know the Lakers took all their centers off the floor. They put Lebron on 705 00:41:14,800 --> 00:41:15,480 Sa Bonus, and it was like, oh, well, you know, 706 00:41:15,559 --> 00:41:19,320 we don't really want to challenge that or try to look at it. Even 707 00:41:19,320 --> 00:41:22,719 if Lebron switches out, We're still not going to look at it. And 708 00:41:22,039 --> 00:41:25,000 it's that's I mean, that's what I'll bring up. That Bucks game. 709 00:41:25,119 --> 00:41:28,440 They don't have Chris Milton, they don't have Yannis, they don't have a 710 00:41:28,480 --> 00:41:31,440 slew of other players. The Bucks were hedging them from pretty much the beginning 711 00:41:31,440 --> 00:41:35,239 of the game, and then afterwards they you know, Karris kind of said, 712 00:41:35,239 --> 00:41:37,360 well we really kind of struggled against their hedges in the fourth quarter. 713 00:41:37,360 --> 00:41:39,280 I'm like, yeah, but they were doing that the entire game, and 714 00:41:39,320 --> 00:41:44,639 for some reason, like you just decided that you were gonna stay on ball 715 00:41:44,679 --> 00:41:47,360 like Duarte, Brogden and Lavert, we're doing this, like staying on ball 716 00:41:47,360 --> 00:41:51,039 way too long until the window of time when they could get it to the 717 00:41:51,119 --> 00:41:53,119 release valve was gone. And then they're not playing out of the middle of 718 00:41:53,119 --> 00:41:57,599 the floor, they're not making their opponents scramble. And then I think the 719 00:41:57,599 --> 00:42:00,559 Bucks might have also mixed in like maybe one or two possessions of zone which 720 00:42:00,639 --> 00:42:04,719 kind of put them off balance too. But you know, I just think 721 00:42:04,760 --> 00:42:07,239 that a lot of what happens in crunch time is more a reflection, not 722 00:42:07,320 --> 00:42:10,360 necessarily like I think that there have been some fluky things. They've been on 723 00:42:10,360 --> 00:42:14,159 the wrong side of two last two minute report calls that would have, you 724 00:42:14,159 --> 00:42:16,800 know, essentially sealed the game for them. And also like you can't always 725 00:42:16,800 --> 00:42:20,199 control it if you're not going to make shots. And they're shooting the ball 726 00:42:20,199 --> 00:42:23,079 pretty horrifically from three during crunch time, but they're also like shooting the ball 727 00:42:23,119 --> 00:42:25,960 like I think they ranked like twenty eight and three point percentage in general. 728 00:42:27,039 --> 00:42:30,360 So then it leads to what type of threes are you getting? That's what 729 00:42:30,480 --> 00:42:32,440 goes back to the paint touch threes. What approach are you going to? 730 00:42:32,920 --> 00:42:37,320 But more so if you're seeing exaggerated coverages, which is what teams are going 731 00:42:37,360 --> 00:42:39,360 to do when the game is on the line, do you have the personnel 732 00:42:39,400 --> 00:42:43,320 to respond to those? And I go back and forth of you know, 733 00:42:43,440 --> 00:42:45,159 do they not have the personnel or do the personnel just not want to do 734 00:42:45,199 --> 00:42:49,920 what they need to do in those situations, because it seemed last night that 735 00:42:50,000 --> 00:42:52,519 they could are not last night, but it seemed against the books that they 736 00:42:52,559 --> 00:42:55,599 could do it that they started getting frantic then in the fourth quarter, and 737 00:42:55,599 --> 00:42:58,719 I agreed with Lloyd Piersoft for the game, He's like, there's only so 738 00:42:58,760 --> 00:43:00,599 many timeouts we can take. They can't really prevent it. If guys like 739 00:43:00,840 --> 00:43:05,159 they had six turnovers I believe in like the last seven minutes and the Bucks 740 00:43:05,159 --> 00:43:07,280 had eight for the game. So like it just started throwing the ball to 741 00:43:07,360 --> 00:43:12,280 the like the very obvious place where it needs to go, it doesn't go. 742 00:43:12,559 --> 00:43:15,320 So if I was evaluating the team and I was the general manager, 743 00:43:15,679 --> 00:43:19,000 like I know that, Kevin Pritchard corrected it and said, like, you 744 00:43:19,039 --> 00:43:22,119 know, I wasn't necessarily referring to a star. I value our players. 745 00:43:22,159 --> 00:43:24,280 I was referring to a closer. Which is kind of interesting because that's probably 746 00:43:24,360 --> 00:43:29,159 like the first time somebody from Indiana has lumped Paul George into being a closer. 747 00:43:29,639 --> 00:43:34,440 I've ever seen him like mentioned in that same context. And that's what, 748 00:43:34,679 --> 00:43:37,039 like what, that's what the comment has said that like, you know, 749 00:43:37,119 --> 00:43:39,159 Victor and Saba or Victor and Paul George had that hit factor. And 750 00:43:39,159 --> 00:43:43,719 then later on he said, like he met a closer, but having somebody 751 00:43:43,719 --> 00:43:45,400 else that can do some of like getting their own shot. If they're not 752 00:43:45,440 --> 00:43:51,360 going to be able to or are not going to want to play through Sabonis 753 00:43:51,360 --> 00:43:53,639 as more of a folkrum in those situations, I think is something that they're 754 00:43:53,679 --> 00:43:59,000 probably missing unless Carris can really continue to turn this on and find that gear. 755 00:43:59,079 --> 00:44:01,760 But I have some degree of doubt in that, just you know. 756 00:44:02,239 --> 00:44:06,119 He also did, like I said, he lost his footing late in the 757 00:44:06,119 --> 00:44:08,400 game against the Warriors. That's something that maybe that doesn't happen on another night, 758 00:44:08,440 --> 00:44:13,440 but it did happen in another late game situation. So overall, I 759 00:44:13,480 --> 00:44:15,119 don't think it's all bad luck. I think some of it is a reflection 760 00:44:15,239 --> 00:44:17,880 of what I said, And that's what you're going to see in the playoffs. 761 00:44:17,920 --> 00:44:22,079 You're going to see teams that are coming with exaggerated coverages for an entire 762 00:44:22,119 --> 00:44:23,920 game and for game plans that are for all of your players, not just 763 00:44:24,000 --> 00:44:29,000 at the end. And that's whow the Warriors shifted it. Like for most 764 00:44:29,039 --> 00:44:31,079 of the game, they were defending things fairly normally, and then at the 765 00:44:31,159 --> 00:44:35,440 end of the game, it's like Draymond's like just showing help everywhere, and 766 00:44:35,480 --> 00:44:37,760 he's helping off of Miles, and how are you dealing with him as a 767 00:44:37,800 --> 00:44:40,079 goalie, and do we have viable ways of doing that? I'm not always 768 00:44:40,079 --> 00:44:45,639 sure. Ultimately, knowing that there are games that could have gone their way, 769 00:44:45,719 --> 00:44:50,760 like closer rounds, knowing their tenth in non garbage time net rating, 770 00:44:51,239 --> 00:44:54,559 knowing that TJ. Warren should eventually hopefully come back, it seems like is 771 00:44:54,639 --> 00:45:00,280 there a much better version of this exact team within the roster or do you 772 00:45:00,360 --> 00:45:05,280 think that they need some sort of a shake up, that they're missing some 773 00:45:06,599 --> 00:45:10,360 a certain archetype of player. Yeah. I think overall the teams should be 774 00:45:10,360 --> 00:45:13,840 better than what they currently are. I mean, this is not what I 775 00:45:13,840 --> 00:45:16,000 would have predicted of them. I think that some of these games could have 776 00:45:16,039 --> 00:45:20,320 gone the other way, and at times some of it's just flat out. 777 00:45:20,480 --> 00:45:22,840 I don't want to blame all of this on it, but they have come 778 00:45:22,840 --> 00:45:24,639 out very flat in some games, and effort wise, if that's a little 779 00:45:24,679 --> 00:45:29,440 bit different than maybe the game changes as well, and then maybe crunch time 780 00:45:29,559 --> 00:45:35,119 isn't as important. So but I don't think that any of that would change 781 00:45:35,159 --> 00:45:38,039 my overall opinion of their ceiling. I think that that's still somewhat limited, 782 00:45:38,360 --> 00:45:42,199 and I know that people in Indiana are getting pretty tired of hearing like, 783 00:45:42,239 --> 00:45:44,519 oh, we think we could be a tough out, Like at a certain 784 00:45:44,519 --> 00:45:46,599 point in time, you have to be I don't think you can continue to 785 00:45:46,599 --> 00:45:50,800 be okay with that being what you're ceiling is like, oh, we could 786 00:45:50,840 --> 00:45:52,880 be a tough out in the first round. Like right now they're not even 787 00:45:52,960 --> 00:45:55,800 you know, in the in the playoff or the play in picture. But 788 00:45:55,840 --> 00:45:59,559 if they got there, like, is that the best that you can be? 789 00:46:00,119 --> 00:46:02,039 So I kind of see a situation where like, I don't think they 790 00:46:02,039 --> 00:46:05,920 need to be in a place where they just make a move to necessarily make 791 00:46:05,960 --> 00:46:09,039 one and less which obviously they do have more information than I do about what's 792 00:46:09,079 --> 00:46:14,360 going on in the locker room, at least from a morale standpoint. Other 793 00:46:14,400 --> 00:46:16,320 than what happened late against that Bucks games, it seems like the guys have 794 00:46:16,360 --> 00:46:21,400 been a little bit more engaged with each other and celebrating each other's successes. 795 00:46:21,440 --> 00:46:25,039 You're not seeing as many like a little blow ups as what we're happening before 796 00:46:25,079 --> 00:46:29,360 that initial report came out. So if you feel like you can, you 797 00:46:29,400 --> 00:46:31,480 know, handle and manage some of that for a while and see what you 798 00:46:31,519 --> 00:46:35,719 can get if something better is going to come along, I suppose you, 799 00:46:36,079 --> 00:46:37,960 you know, don't need to necessarily put a for sale sign out in the 800 00:46:38,039 --> 00:46:42,559 yard today and take whatever the first person comes up and gives you. But 801 00:46:42,599 --> 00:46:44,599 at the same time, I think that if they get to the end of 802 00:46:44,599 --> 00:46:47,840 this season and they haven't made like you know, and we can quibble over 803 00:46:47,880 --> 00:46:52,039 the words rebuild, retool, if they haven't made like an incremental step where 804 00:46:52,599 --> 00:46:58,599 you know, we're gonna trade one of the bigs and care us and see 805 00:46:58,719 --> 00:47:01,559 what we can do from there. Can this team be more competitive there and 806 00:47:01,599 --> 00:47:04,880 then tear it down the rest of the way if you are, I would 807 00:47:04,920 --> 00:47:07,639 be a little bit surprised by that, if that makes sense, Like if 808 00:47:07,679 --> 00:47:10,280 they don't take the incremental step and move one or two of those guys and 809 00:47:10,360 --> 00:47:15,360 see if that can change what their outcome is and add TJ. Warren back, 810 00:47:15,079 --> 00:47:19,760 I will be surprised by that. Yeah, I thought, and I 811 00:47:19,760 --> 00:47:22,400 mentioned this immediately after this break, I thought they were better suited to given 812 00:47:22,400 --> 00:47:24,880 how good I think they should be make more, be more of like a 813 00:47:24,920 --> 00:47:28,360 buyer thing where if you were able to, you know, move one of 814 00:47:28,400 --> 00:47:30,679 the bigs, you have lavert and stuff, and you're able to get like 815 00:47:30,719 --> 00:47:35,519 sort of a primary attacking We like the player that you would want Lavert to 816 00:47:35,519 --> 00:47:37,679 be, but he really isn't. I don't want to say the player all 817 00:47:37,800 --> 00:47:40,719 NBA Victory Ladipo was, because all NBA victory Ladipos don't actually grow on trees. 818 00:47:42,320 --> 00:47:44,559 But it does seem more likely that, if anything, to me, 819 00:47:44,920 --> 00:47:47,280 that they'll either end this season in a holding pattern or is it a situation 820 00:47:47,360 --> 00:47:53,679 where do they explore moving Miles and or Carros Lavert for maybe future assets. 821 00:47:53,719 --> 00:47:57,039 But it's it's not a matter of tearing it down. It's a matter of 822 00:47:57,239 --> 00:48:00,280 how much worse are we actually without you know, Carris Lavert. It's the 823 00:48:00,280 --> 00:48:02,519 guy who I love, But I keep looking at how much worse once TJ. 824 00:48:02,599 --> 00:48:06,760 Warren is healthy are the Pacers without Carris LeVert? And I think that's 825 00:48:06,760 --> 00:48:09,679 a question they could probably ask themselves. That's for them leading into the traded 826 00:48:09,719 --> 00:48:14,639 line. But I personally would be shocked if they did anything like nuclear and 827 00:48:14,679 --> 00:48:16,519 I think that, yeah, a lot of people jumped on. There's still 828 00:48:16,559 --> 00:48:20,000 so much time between now and the deadline. It helps them if they want 829 00:48:20,039 --> 00:48:22,920 to sell, because I believe they'll be a dearth of sellers. But I 830 00:48:22,960 --> 00:48:25,360 think this team can and will be better, and I would just be if 831 00:48:25,400 --> 00:48:28,559 I had to guess if they were making him move, I feel like they 832 00:48:28,599 --> 00:48:32,199 would act still closer to buyers like they always have all along, rather than 833 00:48:32,679 --> 00:48:37,400 the teardown candidate that that Athletic article painted the mess. Yeah, that's that's 834 00:48:37,400 --> 00:48:39,599 where I would land as well. I mean, I could see a situation 835 00:48:39,639 --> 00:48:44,440 where it's like, hey, you know so Bonus is only twenty five years 836 00:48:44,480 --> 00:48:46,519 old, he's our best player. We have an extra year of him on 837 00:48:46,599 --> 00:48:52,400 his contract. Let's see what we can do and getting pieces around he and 838 00:48:52,519 --> 00:48:57,360 Brogden and TJ. Warren and you know, and maybe you retain Miles. 839 00:48:57,400 --> 00:49:00,679 Maybe you just move Carris. I don't know, but maybe you move both 840 00:49:00,719 --> 00:49:02,559 of them and see, like, how bad does the defense look? Can 841 00:49:02,639 --> 00:49:07,239 this be a viable solution? What other piece can we add back there? 842 00:49:07,239 --> 00:49:08,960 And then if it doesn't work, you take the next step from their next 843 00:49:09,000 --> 00:49:12,199 season, because you still have time. He's not going to be in a 844 00:49:12,199 --> 00:49:15,599 contract year. I don't think that you need to rush and do this right 845 00:49:15,639 --> 00:49:20,639 away unless you're just like blown over by a no brainer offer. Because if 846 00:49:20,639 --> 00:49:22,960 you're wanting to stay competitive, which is what herbs Simon made that sound like 847 00:49:23,079 --> 00:49:27,239 to me, like we would be making moves because we still want to be 848 00:49:27,280 --> 00:49:30,360 a good team. I find it very hard to believe that for Sabonus at 849 00:49:30,360 --> 00:49:35,800 eighteen million dollars that you're going to get a one for one swap player that's 850 00:49:35,840 --> 00:49:37,719 going to make them better than what they are with him. Now. Like 851 00:49:37,760 --> 00:49:40,639 again, if you are going the full rebuild mode and you're just like, 852 00:49:40,840 --> 00:49:45,199 we want to see how many picks we can get back and what the overall 853 00:49:45,280 --> 00:49:47,199 like we think we can get more for Sabonus than that track would make more 854 00:49:47,239 --> 00:49:51,360 sense to me. But that doesn't sound like what herb Simon wants to do. 855 00:49:51,960 --> 00:49:55,119 So yeah, it's almost like eighty seven he won't be on board with 856 00:49:55,159 --> 00:49:59,199 a rebuild rather than using eighty seven as a reason he would be on board. 857 00:49:59,559 --> 00:50:04,599 Yeah, yeah, is there uh And looks as long as o'she Brissette 858 00:50:04,639 --> 00:50:07,679 remains untouchable, I'm fine. That's the basis. Can do anything to move 859 00:50:07,719 --> 00:50:10,280 in right, Anything else about this team or anyone on this team that we 860 00:50:10,320 --> 00:50:14,199 didn't touch on. I know we didn't talk a ton about Malcolm Malcolm Brogden, 861 00:50:14,800 --> 00:50:16,480 but anything along those lines that you think we need to discuss before I 862 00:50:16,920 --> 00:50:21,880 let you out of here. No, I think I think you totally touched 863 00:50:21,880 --> 00:50:24,840 on all of the major topics that have covered and be laggered the Pacers over 864 00:50:24,880 --> 00:50:30,159 the first twenty plus games of the season, and as promised, I kept 865 00:50:30,159 --> 00:50:34,000 it fake trade talk to a minimum. I know you love fake trades, 866 00:50:34,039 --> 00:50:37,079 but I thought we've thought we've heard enough of them and that we could see 867 00:50:37,119 --> 00:50:38,679 away from them for this episode. I mean, I think that we've almost 868 00:50:38,719 --> 00:50:42,559 always heard enough of them, because I mean and that that is something I 869 00:50:42,599 --> 00:50:45,239 will counter. You're like, everyone always wants to know, oh, Turner 870 00:50:45,320 --> 00:50:49,280 or Sabonis. You really can't answer that question unless you're Kevin Pritchard. There's 871 00:50:49,320 --> 00:50:51,880 really no good way to answer it because you don't know what they're getting back 872 00:50:51,920 --> 00:50:53,800 in return. I can't tell you if I think that a Sabonis, you 873 00:50:53,840 --> 00:50:58,880 know, team at the five would be viable unless I know what they're getting 874 00:50:58,880 --> 00:51:01,039 back. And same in the return was Miles like, you're losing two very 875 00:51:01,079 --> 00:51:05,280 different things with each of them. So and unless I can see, unless 876 00:51:05,280 --> 00:51:07,360 they call me up and they're like, oh, hey, Kaitlin, here's 877 00:51:07,400 --> 00:51:10,480 all of the packages that have been offered, I really can't just pick one 878 00:51:10,559 --> 00:51:15,039 or the other over them and be able to tell people that. And also 879 00:51:15,159 --> 00:51:17,159 like, I'm not a front office member, so I'll just you know, 880 00:51:17,280 --> 00:51:21,280 let them make those deals and tell you how the trade's going to work after 881 00:51:21,280 --> 00:51:23,880 it's happened. Someone who actually enjoys fake trades. I actually do agree with 882 00:51:23,920 --> 00:51:28,400 you there. I would also say that the Pacers should absolutely be calling Kaitlyn 883 00:51:28,519 --> 00:51:31,519 and throwing all the hypothetical packages they've got her way so she can deliver a 884 00:51:31,599 --> 00:51:35,800 verdict. Kaitlyn, are you able to tell our listeners where they can follow 885 00:51:35,840 --> 00:51:37,880 you and your work if they don't already, Because if they don't already, 886 00:51:38,440 --> 00:51:43,039 you know, remedy that post taste. Right. So my handles at Sea 887 00:51:43,079 --> 00:51:46,119 two underscore Cooper. I'm at Indy corn Rows Indiana Pacer blog at SPI Nation 888 00:51:46,159 --> 00:51:51,159 about once or twice a week, and then next week we'll be our monthly 889 00:51:51,199 --> 00:51:53,840 podcast summit where we kind of summarize stuff that's going on with the Pacers. 890 00:51:53,880 --> 00:51:57,920 So we do that once a month on the third Tuesday. Is that that 891 00:51:57,960 --> 00:52:00,239 I'm going to Butcher? Is that the two podcast? There's two questions too. 892 00:52:00,480 --> 00:52:06,000 It's a reference to a former PA announcer reporter always said and the Pacers 893 00:52:06,039 --> 00:52:07,360 continue to say it now and in the last two minutes of games they say 894 00:52:07,400 --> 00:52:10,599 two minutes too. How so that's what we've named it. I love those 895 00:52:10,599 --> 00:52:13,639 podcasts, you would, marsh in. They're doing a great job with them, 896 00:52:13,639 --> 00:52:15,800 so definitely check those out. Caitlin, thank you so much again for 897 00:52:15,800 --> 00:52:21,039 giving us your time, especially during such a busy part of the Pacers season. 898 00:52:21,079 --> 00:52:23,199 I guess I know you've been running the gamut of podcast appearances, so 899 00:52:23,199 --> 00:52:27,039 we always appreciate you over here, and as you know by now, I'll 900 00:52:27,079 --> 00:52:29,960 be pestering you again down the line. Hey, I look forward to it. 901 00:52:29,960 --> 00:52:30,039 I always like coming on here.