I'm Neil de graft Tyson. Hey, I'm Adam Carol was Gillette not only listening, I'm a guest, I'm a penn and teller, and I fourth listener and I am the fourth listener, and that must make me at least the fourth listener. To keep our three listeners coming back, we must be doing something right. And if you're the fourth listener, we thank you for the support. You can get every episode with no ads at Patreon dot com, slash David C. Smalley and take advantage of your fourth listener status. And we're going to sue David smalley for slander. With the world divided, it's time to resurrect a nuance and remember the importance of conversation. He's an actor, he's a comedian, and he'll make you think this is David C. Smallly. Yes it is. Thank you so much for joining me today. I am on tour right now, so rather than me listing every date in every city, here's what I'm gonna do. I'm gonna run through the cities that I'm gonna be in and if you hear your city, you can either go to David csmalley dot com and grab tickets, or you can text the tour hotline and say I don't see my city, you should come here, and if we get enough texts from a single city to sell some tickets, then we will add your city to the tour. All you gotta do is text. The phone number is four two four three zero six zero seven nine eight four two four three zero six zero seven nine eight. Here are the cities I'm coming to. We're starting off in Phoenix, then Fort Worth, Austin, Atlanta, Memphis, Saint Louis, Kansas City, Little Rock, Shook, Cago, and New York City. Now here's the thing. All of those tickets are currently available right now for sale, except for Chicago. Chicago, we're still walking in the date. We're looking at around November fifteenth ish. We're not sure exactly, and the club has already said yes, but I don't want to say it yet because I don't want you go into their website and bugging them. But it is where laughs are created, so I hope to see you in one of those cities. It starts on October fifteenth in Phoenix, and right now it's ending November eighteenth in New York City. So between October fifteenth and November eighteenth. That's what I'm gonna be doing. And I'm back in December. I'm back in Hollywood December fourth at the Hollywood Improv. And then it looks like I'm gonna be getting some dates up north in the Seattle, Ish area, so be on the lookout for that. And again, a couple of these cities that I've mentioned or areas that I've mentioned that there aren't tickets available yet. If you're in the Chicago area and you're like, well, how am I going to know when tickets are available? Text the tour hotline four two four three zero six zero seven nine eight, and as soon as tickets become available for those areas, you will get a text saying here's your ticket link. Okay, all right, we got all that business out of the way. David csmalley dot com for more information and tickets. I hope to see you out there on the road. Let's take selfies, come up and say hi. Don't send me messages afterwards and be like I saw you, but I was nervous to say something that I want to know that you're there. You're not gonna bug me. I want to say Hi, let's take pictures. Trust me, I love it. Okay, my guest today, you know I've got a new producer on the show, erin and told you guys about him. He He's finding some of the most interesting guests I've ever had. He was such a great decision for this podcast. There are a lot of people that come on the show that are Christians. That are a lot of people who come on that are non denominational or Baptist or hardline fundamentalists. The best of my knowledge, to the best of my knowledge, I don't know that we've ever had anyone on the show who has actually performed exorcisms. That changes today. My guest is a musician so dedicated to his craft that he actually turned down a record deal in favor of mentoring Christian youth in his city or at a Christian facility. He's a non denominational Christian and has actually performed exorcisms. I have a ton of questions about his faith, about his line of work, specifically in the exorcism side of things. And then we might get into a little bit of music here and there, but we got to give the people what they want. Join me in welcoming to the podcast justin Thank you so much for joining me today. I appreciate it. Hey, appreciate you letting me on. Man. Well, this is going to be a fun discussion. Man, I'm looking forward to this. So how did Aaron find you? I believe you said something about Reddit? Are you guys? Do you go on there to talk about faith? Do you do? You debate? Quite often? What you what? Are you hanging out on Reddit? For here? It's a dangerous place. It is definitely a dangerous place. So in my spare time, I like to do a mixtape and promotional materials for other indie artists. I'm an indie artist myself, and he was one of the artists that reached out and sent me music and we just I saw on his page that he was looking for people in the faith sphere, the faith sphere, and I just reached out and said, hey, if you're looking for a perspective, I got one for you. That's really cool, man. I've had this podcast for about thirteen years now. I'm a non believer. I'm an atheist, but I bring people of differing views because I want to understand. I want to get a feel for how you believe, what you believe. I find it extremely interesting and I'm always open to evidence, open to other things being out there, but talking to different people that are living their lives day to day, especially those involved in ministries or mentoring people or putting there like there are tons of people that claim they believe stuff, but then act every day as if they don't. I'm like, you believe just like me until we talk, and then you act like you're the great defender of Christ. But that's not in your daily works, right, So I like it whenever I meet somebody who who walks the walk and talks the talk. So I appreciate you being a part of the show today for that reason for sure. Not a problem. And yeah, I've seen unfortunately some Christians I've met are some of the biggest people out there. So yeah, all right, So I want to save a little bit of the exorcism stuff for a little bit later, although I have to admit that's definitely the most interesting part of this right now. But just take me through your upbringing. Were you raised in a in a Christian home? Yeah, so family kind of a bit of a name in the city that I'm from, Jackson, Michigan and raised in a Christian Church, and we kind of moved around. Started out in a Methodist and we went to Baptist, and I sort of just soaked up what I could, But I will say I didn't really like buy into all of it or put it into practice until later in my life. Okay, but you were you were still taught this from a very very young age, as long as you can remember. You were taught that there was a God and a Jesus and a heaven and a hell and a Satan and all of that stuff. Yeah. I will say during Sunday school, I was really really hyper, so they pretty much just sent me downstairs to watch movies during the during the servant determined a lot of times. Okay, okay, And so what what denomination was that? Did? Did you have one? Or was it also kind of a non denomination lifestyle? First church was Methodist. That was the first one, so I can I can sing the Lord's Prayer from memory, and then we did the Baptist thing for a while too. Okay, okay, And do you recall any like sort of moment there where you shifted or clicked to go, oh, this isn't just some background noise. I really need to pay attention to this. This is a this is a big part of my life for me. My moment of quote unquote conversion happened when I was in college, and I don't I won't get super far into it now, but I got into a situation that I could not easily get myself out of, and I was seeing things that nothing, nothing, really could explain. So I sort of I sort of went back to some of the things that I remembered growing up. And but before that, I had studied a lot of different religions, went to school, studied all world religions, just kind of seeing and but the main thing I was just seeing things that that were sort of unexplainable. And what I was taught growing up helped me make sense of this. Go into that a little bit. What do you mean seeing things that were unexplainable? Okay, So as far back as I can remember, I always used to sleep walk and have night I used to have these crazy nightmares and I would wake up standing sometimes in my parents' bedroom just and they'd be looking at me, like what are you doing? And I remember my dad used to pray over me and the nightmares would stop for a time. That was like early childhood memory, and then eighteen I kind of left it, you know, didn't really when someone shows you certain things, when when you go through certain things growing up, you sort of just all right, this is just the way life is. And around eighteen, I remember sitting in my driveway staring up at the stars and I remember going, all right, God, if you're real, prove it. And that's kind of when it started for me. What do you recall seeing proof? Yes? You know? Is this a safe space? Is I can tell the story? You know? Please do? So. I remember getting into my car. It was a little trash neon and back when were still in circulation, you know, I heard that's that's not really it. Did you say did you say? Did you say neon? It was a neon? Was it? Was it purple? It was white? I wish that I could have. It was white with a little lightning streak. Even though it didn't go very fast. I had the I had the purple neon. Really yeah, crazy, Yeah. My first car was a Neon and I'm like sixty three, so I did not my car. So I remember jumping in my neon and I'm driving and I had this I used to burn CDs. It's crazy. The youth might not understand. Some of the new people might not understand. But I used to burn CDs and play my music in the car, and I always kept the CD in the car. And that night, the CD did not play, and all the radio stations that I was turning to were just very heavily static, and I could only make out a few words as I flipped around. And the words that I made out were I am real, I cannot always show you. And I heard that and was like, wow, that's crazy. That's right after I asked God to show me proof that he exists. And I'd like to say that that was my like moment of conversion and I totally bought into all of that. But that wasn't that wasn't the time, But yeah, that was. That was one of the the times where I called out to the universe and I seemingly got an answer. From my point, I could see how that could be pretty powerful for sure. So a couple of questions there. Yeah, so you know a lot of people come on the show also that are non believers. I used to have a lot of co hosts that were atheists, and they went and what's that of course, of course. And so I would would ask them about times that they were believers and that they would pray, and a lot of them would say, you know, I was going through abuse, and you know my father was abusing me, or I was having abuse at my church, or I was going through a tough time or having mental illness or suicidal thoughts or whatever it may be, and they would say, I would drop to my knees, I would cry out to God. I would say, help me, prove to me you're real, do something in my life. And nothing changed. And it was it was only until I realized I was in charge of my own destiny that I really started to be like, I don't even really need this idea of a God because every time I've called out for help there's been no response. So screw it, I'm going to look into this. And so they would dive into the acience. They would start looking into how the Bible was put together, finding contradictions, YadA, YadA, and then end up and then end up going to college, you know, and then being like, oh, now that I have a PhD in you know, evolutionary biology, I see a lot of things that are wrong with the Bible and I don't believe anymore, and so you could take that story and sort of copy and paste. And a lot of times when when when fundamentalist pastors come on whatever and we have these debates, they I tend to go toward what's known as the problem of evil, all the problems, all the bad things that happen in the world. And they always say to me, they always say to me, oh, that's your strongest argument against God, And I go, you know, I think that's the number two strongest argument. I think the most powerful is what's known as the problem of divine hiddenness, which means why does God remain hidden from those who are challenging his existence? If God is real, why would he? And I'm this is all coming back to your answer. Why is that my former co hosts would you know, drop to her knees and cry out to God and beg to be you know, shown something that I've prayed about it. And when I was going through my deconversion out of Christianity, and I've had countless guests through the years and co hosts over thirteen years say that they cried out to God. There are people who are gay who begged God to make them straight. Nothing ever worked. Why do you think it is that you asked the question and got an answer in the form of static and radio and a CD malfunctioning you. He found a way to reach you, but has not reached millions of people who are deconverting out of the religion every day. Why doesn't he show himself to those of us who have also asked just like you did. Wow, we're really starting with the low pressure questions. I like that, all right. Well, I do what called angry praying sometimes, and surprisingly maybe a lot of my prayers are saying that are saying like, I come from a mom with God bless her orderline personality disorder. I come from a babysitter, a female babysitter who exposed herself to me at a young age. I come from running around in the streets seeing all kinds of crazy stuff. I myself have my ex. This is I don't know how can I I'm just gonna say it, like my ex horrible childhood, her father, so terrible things. I want to know. It's her story to tell, but terrible thing. And the question that I circle back to a lot of times, the question A lot of people they circle back to sometimes is where is God? Why isn't God? Answering why isn't God? What I ask is, yo, how come you're not pulling me out of this situation? Why are you not doing anything? And a lot of times in my life I wish I was one of those Christians who could just quote scripture like completely perfectly, But my memory is trashed. I made poor decisions in college, you know what I'm saying, But from I vaguely remember a scripture saying that the world is in the hands of man and no, look people are who are studying scripture. Please feel free to correct me. But what I have learned is a lot of Christians talk about the body of Christ and how we are the body of God, but a lot of a lot of people don't feel that they have the power to change some of their circumstances. And from what I've seen, I'm the only one a lot of times who has stood up of me being an advocate for at risk youth, speaking at high schools, things like that. I My answer is all like, for example, why did my ex's father get away with what he did? Right? Like that? That's a good example of this kind of question, right why didn't God come down and stop it? Right? And So what I told her was and what I've kind of applied to myself, is if you had called CPS during any one of those moments, he would have got locked up. If anyone in the family had prioritized protecting this child, it would have stopped in my life. If anyone had stepped up during those dark moments, any one of the people who was supposed to protect me, a lot of my suffering wouldn't have happened. So my answer is, I look at our human protectors for not safe like protecting us and safeguarding us and using the God that I believe is in us to do something about it. I think one of the craziest lies that we've been fed by society you're gonna I'm one of those people by society, is that we are powerless and a lot of times you're you're more powerful than you think. That. That's for me, It's been me like I found out I could do something about a lot of the things that were causing me anguish. I just didn't know because my ogs failed me. That's that's my perspective. Well, well, let me clarify the question. Yeah, because there's a So I do quote the Bible. I do know the Bible really well. I went to college online, so my memory is still intact. Yeah, I uh. I want those of us who spend a lot of time in the formal debate scene, yeah, can easily, you know, recognize fallacies, easily recognize things that are kind of like as a referee of a debate, you'd be like, oh, that's this, that's a strong man, that's an equivocation and yeah, yeah, And in doing so, there's a very fine line between the problem of evil and divine hiddenness. The problem of evil is why why does God let bad things happen? And divine hiddenness? I have a quick just my memory is not so great. So you just said this. I want to address what you said to so continue, but I'm just making a mental Helie. Yeah, yeah, it's so. The problem of evil is why doesn't God stop bad things from happening? And divine hiddenness is why doesn't God make himself known? So God could exist and make himself known but admit but admit to being evil, which would which would answer why the problem of evil is an issue, and we would actually get rid of the problem of evil because God would say, I'm real, here's me, and I hate humanity. That's why I let you rape and destroy each other, so that that would so. So I want to so I want to be clear that that when I'm talking about divine hiddeness, I'm not saying why didn't God come down and save all these people? That's a separate issue because you weren't like God didn't. God didn't intervene in your life and stop some sort of evil that was happening you. You said, if you're real, let me know, and he responded in your belief, So why so, so forget, forget all of the evil, forget all the evil for now. My question was why do you think God responded to your request to show himself but ignored mine and millions of others? Like I said that, that's that is a very heavy question for one person to answer. But I can. I can give you my perspective, but I'm not I'm not God, you know. All I can say is all I can say is I saw that as a sign, but I didn't really take it as a sign at the time. Like I said, I didn't even take it. I said, oh, that's interesting, and then I kind of continued on about my day. I'm also part of Native American and it's part of the Native American belief system to look for God and all things. I can say pretty confidently, even recently, when I asked God for an answer a lot of Look, this is going to sound probably crazy to some people, but I get answers from nature quite a lot, quite a lot A lot of times when I pray, I will see a certain animal and I think, if I think about the traits. I'm not talking about just a random animal. I will see something that is directly in front of my face, and when I think about the traces of that animal and apply it to my life, I get answers that way. So every person's situation is different. But I would say that I don't want to offend anyone, but I can say in my life that I have seen answers once I started to look for them. But sometimes I didn't get any answers, and the answer was get up and fight it yourself. Justin that I'm speaking on myself, you know, Yeah, that's that's that's kind of the best I can answer that one, because everyone one situation is different, you know, Yeah, I mean it kind of I don't want to put words in your mouth, but it kind of sounds like you don't want to offend anyone and you're afraid to say it. But the general idea is maybe these other people don't have enough faith or they're not living right. No no, no, no no no no no no no no no no, because because at the time I wasn't living. I was. I was living. I was running around in the streets at the time, and I didn't necessarily believe in God. I was just taught, you know that that's what that is. Like, I was taught in church that this is the Bible, stuff like that. But I wouldn't say that I was like a super devout, freaking like, nah, I wasn't living my life right at all. I kind of a we can't cuss on this show came, you can't, I probably won't run. I was a jerk at the time, you know, Like, I can't say that I was. So I really don't want it to be confused that I'm speaking about anyone else's journey, because faith in God is a personal situation. It's between you and God. Man. I can only speak for what I've experienced. There's been plenty of times where I've cried up to this guy and I've got no answer, and I've been in a really desperate situation. So I can't say that. I can't say it's because of anyone's lack of faith or because people weren't paying attention. I can't say that. I can only I can only speak my truth, you know, Okay, And now into the problem of evil. Yes, you've got to believe it. The devil is very and from what I've experienced, a huge part of my faith system is believing that the devil exists, or else you will think that it's all God doing it. Okay, But is God more powerful than the devil? Every time that I have experienced a great evil, when I prayed and acted and used a specific name, it fell back. Even times when I have been under negative influences, it fell back. Now. But my my concept of like faith and God is maybe a little more active than some people may say. You know, I believe that God is like the electricity in a room, and he will enhance whatever actions we do. But you've got to flip the switch. But I do believe that Satan will fall back if you, if you use the right words. I've seen it. I've just seen it personally. So we have the power. Human beings have the power to push Satan back out of our lives if you use the right words. Sometimes you got sometimes you got to ask for reinforcements. But I have been I'll put it like this. My moment of conversion was when you know, they used to call me a gang leader. Isn't that crazy? That's crazy, right. My moment of conversion was when my entire gang, or my entire I call them a group of like my individuals. They were they all turned on me, and they all knew where I lived, and they were all very serious. And that was the situation. So when I speak about evil and I speak on situations that seem insurmountable, I know from experience. I was in a situation where you can't call the police, you can't run, you can't go anywhere. And I'm still here today. So you know there's a lot there, man. So yeah, I'm trying to keep it like focused because there's so many little pathways to go on, right, So I don't know where I want to go. Let's go. I mean, when it comes to the problem of evil, God God allowed God allowing better Yeah, but God allowing bad things to happen to people. Oh yeah, my, so my, my, My concern here is this, Yes, you can you can say I don't know all answer. All questions will be answered in the end. You can say I don't understand the mind of God. These are all the standard answers I always get. But let me lay it out this way. It Let's say you have a job and the director at your company, Let's say he's the owner of the company, and you you come in at a low level. You get promoted almost instantly. He takes you to lunch off and he's very nice to you. You get constant promotions, and you go to the break room one day and you hear a group of people just talking shit about this boss. He's awful, he's mean, he's terrible, and you're like, what you talking about? He's great? Clearly you two have different experiences, right, But then when you're walking around the office, you start seeing people tired, thirsty, hungry. You're like, how come you didn't go to lunch, Like, he won't let me go to lunch? Like, why do you won't let you go to lunch? Yeah, And you're watching the people around you absolutely fall apart. You're seeing people needing water not allowed to drink it. You're seeing people need bathroom breaks and pissing their pants or defecating themselves because the boss won't let them leave the desk. At some point, even though you are being treated phenomenally, at some point, at some point, you're either gonna you're phenomenally, I'd like to throw that in that. Yeah, well, let me finish this and then I'll let you respond. At some point, you're getting what you want, You're getting the answers you need, You're being treated well. You have a great relationship with this owner, but you're seeing him actively ignore the needs of other people to the point of their absolute demise. At some point, even though you're being treated well, you would look around and say, I don't want to continue supporting an owner who is going to treat the majority of his people this way or ignore their needs. And so my question becomes to the believer, to the Christian who feels like they have been blessed, the hidden implication of saying I've been blessed is I acknowledge that many people are ignored by God and their needs go unmet and I'm so lucky that the Daddy CEO likes me, and so I'm going to continue worshiping him. And I say, even if I had it good under God, and he did reveal himself to me, and I did have a blessed life as a believer, I couldn't look around at all the death and destruction in awful things that He allowed to continue and still call him good. So I can raise my hand even though I'm someone of a privileged position and say, even though I'm doing fine, i want off the boat. So my question for you, as a Christian is how can you continue to exalt and worship a God that you know ignores the needs of millions or even billions of people that are suffering, that are starving, that are in pain, that are dying, that are in misery. How can you still exalt that God is good when you know he ignores the needs of the large percentage of humanity. It's kind of hard to answer that with a succinct answer, because what's happening is you're sort of taking all of these experiences from your perspective and sort of leaving out the personal elements of it. So I would say I've got like three four dead homies just doing music. I've had people that I've looked at in their faces and they have died and I've had to mourn them. I come from like a town where parents turn on their own children. I come from a town where the worst things in humanity happen to people. So I think that it's it's you have to be able to look at the situation person by person to some degree, or you'll miss a lot of it. Because I wouldn't say that, though I will say God is good. There's been plenty of times where I've looked up at the sky and said some not very nice words because of what I've gone through. I can only speak on my journey because I don't know everyone else's story. But I can say I personally say God is good because when I had no way out when everything was going left, and I had know one, when my life was in danger, when when people were dying all around me dealing with abuse, I called out and there was some sort of a way that I saw where I could make my way out. And I don't think that that makes me like better than anyone. I don't think that that makes me like more special than anyone. I do believe that people can access that, but I am a little bit hesitant because I feel like if I say I had to believe, then the answer will be are you saying that other people don't believe? It does feel like a little bit of a little bit like of a trap a little bit. It's not me creating the trap. It's just logic creating the trap. That's the idea, right, So what the idea is? Just pull it back out of the polite conversation. What makes you special? Why are you okay? And and and there are you? Know? I've literally watched a ten year old slowly die of cancer for four years, so we're talking from six years old to ten. She slowly deteriorated, and I can't I can't wrap my head around why someone would believe that a God is good and go, well, maybe her faith wasn't. Really we're gonna talk about a six year old's faith and an age of accountability, and maybe she wasn't right with God or didn't have time. Maybe she should have started reading the Bible when she was three and a half, and maybe she would have been straight by that. Like, I never understand that, and what I what I end up finding in these conversations is that Christianity. And I don't mean to insult you, I promise you this, and this is just about the world view. I'm not gonna lie if it's if it's gonna turn into a we're just gonna bash God thing, I'm not going for it. So I understand. I understand. It's not about God. It's it's it's and it's not about you personally. It's about the view says. We'll just let people kind of like you know how some people like there's the bloods and the crypts and all that stuff. Right. Yeah, from what I've gone through, I done lost people to this. You know, what do you do? You really unlost homies? I just told y'all got three four dead homies. You know what I'm saying, people who I looked in the face and are no longer alive. So just be aware that there are people who are very passionate about what you're saying. What do you mean lost them? You've lost them to religious debates, so they've I don't understand what they no. I mean, I mean they've died and we have shared omens. Yet you understand under this covenant so you're talking about a ten year old that passed away. That is horrific. Horrific, but just be aware that you are also talking about a being that I credit to a lot of really good things as well. And I just told you, but wait, I told you the devil exists too. What happens a lot of times when I get into these debates is people will hear a perspective, and then a person will give a perspective and then they'll just go nah, I'd like to just keep glossing over. So I just told you I believe the devil was real, right, I just told you that I view things and even according to scripture. You know we have a God that gives us free will you know you read the story of Adam and Eve. God could have been like, n don't need that apple on this story, but he let him completely not listen to it. So everything that you're saying from my if you're interested in my perspective, I don't know if you are. Feel like a little bit of a setup. But I look at humanity so to I do want to address what you said. You said you I take it real serious because I'm an advocate for children. You said you watched a ten year old suffer from cancer and pass away. First of all, rest in peace. And that is a horrible thing to go through. That is a horrible thing to witness. That is a horrible thing to experience. I look at the medical field and what humanity could have done. I do I look at that. I look at what could we have? Why don't you ask what God could do? Like? Why doesn't your mind go there? Because I believe God works through man. I believe that God, And that is a big disconnect that I run into in these debates. Everyone wants to get mad at God. But do you want a God that gives you free will? Or a God that controls everything? Do you want a god that? I'm very passionate about this, you know what I mean? So is their free will in heaven? I've never been to heaven? I mean, are we all just robots? Or is their free will in heaven? I have been the purgatory though, huh, we'll get there. Are is there experience? Is there is there free will in heaven? Do you believe that we are mindless robots in heaven? Or can we do whatever we want in heaven? You do comedy? Right, Yep, you go to comedy clubs, right, I do. Can people do whatever they want and get into the comedy club you're performing? Can people go into a comedy club and shoot guns and ceiling? Or or are there is there a code of conduct that is expected to be followed to enter into this environment. There's a code of conduct. There's a code of conduct. Don't choose, Yeah, don't have to choose to enter this comedy club. So here's the thing too. I've studied all major world religion, every single major world religion has It's not just yo, you gang, you know, it's not just hey, We're all part of this, So there are things that are expected. I have to love you no matter how many times you just faith all right, But we're getting away fro We're getting away from the point though. Justin I'm asking you if I can Can I commit an evil act in heaven? Why are you asking me? It's very important because I have a follow up after that. If you and I, if you and I both die and we both go to heaven, can I walk up and slap you in the face. It seems like you want me to be God and you want me to answer. Oh, let me okay, sorry, sorry, let me let me clarify. Do you believe in God? No? No, no? Do you believe I know you believe in God? Do you believe that I can commit an evil act in heaven? And let me just before you answer, let me tell you why. What does I don't want you to feel like it's a trap. Yeah? Yeah, because you said because you're talking essentially. Yeah. Yeah, so so you're you're essentially talking about this was an experience where you wanted to understand and this kind of seems like this, This kind of seems more like you're looking for someone to be God and answer certain things. And I need to tell you I'm not. I'm a human just like you. I'm only asking what your belief is. When I ask it, I'm saying, in your worldview, is this? What is your belief on this situation? I'm not. I don't treat you like an encyclopedia. Man. I know you don't know for sure. I'm asking you about your belief. Did Aaron not tell you that this is dogma? Debate that I'm an atheist and I debate people on my podcast. I kind of got an idea for it. But I will say the questions you're answering me, or the questions you're asking me. Do I think that you could slap me in heaven? What I'd like to know what the idea behind that is before? All right? All right, so let me all right, so let me explain. So when we're talking about right, so what no one's gonna be flapping me? And the idea like could I could I scream? Could I sing so loud? Could I trip you from behind? Could I? Could I pop a rubber band at you? Could I? Could I put grasshopper poop in your salad? Like? Can I mess with you? Can? For you're right right? So so hold on. So, so here's the here's the here's the basis behind it. Whenever you talked about free will, you're like the devil works here, there's free will kind of that's the general underlying explanation for why bad things happen on earth. God isn't doing it. Satan is doing it, and for whatever reason, God's allowing it, and we don't know why. He doesn't intervene so individual people sometimes sometimes sometimes I also believe God will challenge us. But as far as negativity bad stuff, I'm not. I'm not gonna you know, all right, Well, I'm trying to explain why Justin. I'm trying to explain why why I'm asking the question. So if you're if you're explaining, if you're if you're reasoning behind why bad things happen. Here is free will? Then, and you say, do you want a god that makes all your decisions or a god that lets you do what you want to do? I go, Okay, you're right, I would like a God that lets me do what I want to do. And so that's the trade off, right, So I get freedom, and the downside is if you live next door to me, I have the freedom to play my music loudly, you might not want to hear my music loudly, So my freedom will bump into your ability to live perfectly. So you become hindered because I have freedoms. So then my question becomes, is their free will in heaven? Here are a couple of options. Yes, there's free will in heaven. I can do whatever I want, but there might be consequences. Okay, so what are my costs so that means I can I can walk up and slap Justin in heaven? Oh y, yeah, but you're gonna be kicked out because that's not nice. Doesn't matter. That means Justin was in heaven, which is a perfect paradise, and experienced pain to his face that shouldn't be able to happen in a perfect place. So the only way to get rid of that, I'm almost done. I'm almost done. The only way to get rid of that is to say there's no free will in heaven, so we are just mindless as zombies there to worship God. That doesn't sound like paradise. So I'm trying to logic my way around this and get to the bottom of it. If God has the ability, here's the final option. If God has the ability to create heaven where there is a beautiful, perfect paradise for everyone, yet we also yet we also somehow have free will in this paradise, he could have also made that right here on earth and created perfect paradise without evil while we still had free will. That's the reasoning behind me asking the question. Okay, so I go back to the comedy club thing. Do you want to go to a place where people aren't hurting each other? Do you want to go to This is just to talk about your heaven situation. If the idea of heaven is a place where people aren't hurting each other, where people aren't slapping each other, Yes, where people aren't hurt. I have chosen to live my life on earth. I don't walk up and slap people. So if I saw you in heaven and you started getting slappy, I'd be like, something's wrong here? Do you know what I'm saying? Right? So the free will comes into place for me is while I'm here on Earth, I don't want to hurt people. That's my thing. So I'm trying to go to a place where people like you who want to slap people in the face. I don't want to see you around because I dealt with that enough around down here. You know what I'm saying. So to me, you saying can I slap you in heaven? That to me says what you don't really want to go to a place where Why do you want to hurt people in heaven? Oh don't. I don't, just I don't. Just no, no, no no. But I'm just saying you answer your question. You said, can I do we have free will in heaven? And can I slap you in heaven? I would say if I just spent my entire life pushing peace and not retaliating on people, and doing all these things to not harm people. In the idea that I'm going to graduate spiritually to a place where there's nobody around who has thoughts of hurting people, No, no, I don't. I don't think that anyone's gonna come up and slap me in heaven because I use my free will to get away from people who like to randomly slap people. Bro Like, that's that question is kind of strange to me, because why do you want to slap people in the first place? What's up with that? I think you know, I think you may have missed My point. Is is it possible it's not about me? Justin it's not about me, it's not about you. It is can no, no, no no, it's not Can a slap no no, can a slap take place in general in heaven? I don't believe. And I answered you again, Can people shoot out the lights at your comedy club and get in to people walk in with a bazoop? But justin now, listen, you asked me a question. I'm asking you a question as well. When you go do your comedy, do people not have to behave a certain way to get into the place. Yes or not, comedy clubs are not touted as being perfect paradise. The analogy falls apart. It doesn't all the way fall apart, because my point is there is a code of conduct to get into this place, but once you're in there, what you do is different. So yes, technically, yes, you can shoot out the lights in the comedy club. You'll be arrested and you'll be thrown out. And if you say ahead of time, I'm gonna shoot doubt the lights, they're not going to let you in. But if you get in there, right, what's that? So? Yeah, you said, yes you can do all this evil shit. Yeah, can you sit and enjoy a comedy show doing all this evil shit? No, you'll be experted out right right exactly? Okay, So yes there is I don't believe that anyone. To answer your question, I believe that heaven from my own perspective, which can just be mine, I believe that. And I'm getting a feeling. I'm getting a feeling that maybe this wasn't the greatest idea my spider senses, our team one. But I'll answer this one, Okay, I do believe there is free will. I do believe there is free will in heaven. I do believe that those who get into heaven are the ones who use their free will to uplift instead of hurting. So I don't believe that someone who would even think, let me go slap the shit out of this person would be up there. But I believe everyone in there because they have chosen to conduct themselves with self control and follow what the Bible said about loving others. No matter what I do believe, I do believe that they all have free will, and they would use it to be there for sure. And I think once they got up there, they would continue to use that free will to make it a nice place. That's what I think personally, right. But what's what's nice to you, what's nice to you is going to be different from what's nice to me. We're not all gonna agree on what's nice and anybody wh's ever lived there in h But a lot of the a lot of the Satanists that I've talked to, they do that good and evil is is open to interpretation. A lot of a lot of the Satanists that have talked to me and say, well, you say this is good. I say this is good. So if you don't know that slapping people is bad, then I don't know what to tell you. Well, is an extreme people? Is the slap is an extreme analogy? I think the point yeah, And I did it on purpose because it's an extreme analogy. But it gets us. It gets us to a point because now we can step back, and the idea here is to point out what I believe is a logical inconsistency and the very idea of a perfect paradise for multiple people. How could something if even just the two of us are in a room, we're gonna have different temperatures that we would want to be at, like some of some people run hot, some people run cold, some people get hungry at different times. Like some people prefer red walls, some people prefer white walls. Like the idea, the idea that everybody, the idea that that I could have a perfect place where I am and you are also in that perfect place and it's also perfect for you. The very concept of that, to me is impossible because I don't know how we could both how we could both exp experience a perfect paradise simultaneously, because we're going to have different ideas of what perfect is. No, but I have to I have to point out something that you are not addressing as well. All Right, it's not just a randomly perfect place. There's a book on this stuff. That's my there's a We're not just having a random debate about a heaven that is not described in any sort of way that we just have vague. No, we're not. We're talking about a heaven that is specifically just we're talking about a Biblical heaven. And you can talk about whatever version. But in what I what I believe, we don't try to just hurt people randomly, you know what I'm saying. We don't do that. We don't go out of our way to just if you you can diss my faith a bunch of times, and I'm still supposed to say I love and respect you as a human being, I will defend myself. But we're not just talking about a random concept of heaven. There's a book on this stuff. So if we're talking about the bibili heaven, you say you study it. You said you've studied the Bible, or you at least know something that's in there. Where in the Bible does it say that the version of heaven we're speaking about is where people can get slap happy. We can agree on certain things based on what we're reading, is my point. You see what I'm saying, We're not just talking about a random heaven. Well, got to bring in what the Bible says about heaven and what you've got to do to get in there, just like every other face on them. So justin Remember the entire reason we got into the concept of heaven is because we were talking about evil acts happening on earth, and you said, free will is what contributes to evil things happening? So that paused that evil question, and I said, is their free will in heaven? Because if there is free will in heaven, then I could do some things that you won't like, which is no longer paradise. Let me finish if I do, but you keep it just wing this version of what you need to do. You can't just throw out the entire book of what you need to do to get into this heaven. But but getting in there is different from what you do once you're already inside. So let you think that. Well, because because once you're in the doors, I mean, Lucifer was in heaven. Say forget it Lucifer, Lucifer according to your belief, right, louse, Lucifer was in heaven and was kicked out. For sure, he was okay, So what he was doing is he created here? What's that? I said, according to the book, if you believe that sort of thing, different opinion, right, Well, that's the idea though, That's exactly what this is about. So if if there is free will in heaven, which there appears to be, because Lucifer seemed to have exercised free will in heaven and did some evil shit in heaven and got tossed out for it. Therefore, if I had been standing there, Lucifer could have done something negative to me and I would have experienced I would have a negative experience in heaven, which I thought would be impossible in a perfect paradise. So then, if you're trying to logically deconstruct the spiritual concept, yes, what you're doing, you're right, and I would urge you to consider the fact that spirituality, while it can coincide with logic. Yeah, you're trying to Okay, I'm trying to find a way to explain this in a way that you might understand. But if the concept of heaven is if the concept of heaven is, according to the Bible, people who treat people well and don't hurt people get here. You're trying to say, can something bad happen there? But the whole concept is nobody who wants to treat people like shit it's supposed to get in. So why are we even debating? All right, let me tell you, Let me tell you, let me tell you. I'm want to answer that question. I want to answer that question perfectly for you right now. Yeah, yeah, let me know what you're getting at. You know, because Republicans think think they are doing good. I think I agree with you. I think what they're doing is evil, but they think what they're doing is good. They think by whatever whatever it is that they're doing, they think is good. I think some I've heard some of the most quote unquote devout Christians running around screaming and I hate don't I don't political party. I sided with Malcolm X when it comes to politics. Okay, but like I said, some self proclaimed Christians are some of the most evil people on the planet. All right, but do you do you think they believe they're evil? No? All right, that's my entire point. So that person gets into have because they cross all these tea's and do all these I gotta stop you. I gotta stop you. I gotta stop you. A faith Christian ain't getting in. That's my point. You can't that you don't know anything about gangs? Do you have you ever? You've never been in a gang? Have I? Have you never been in a gang? I was in a gang? Yes? Really? Yeah? Did you have a fly? Yeah? I have a really dark past. I don't talk about it. I don't talk about it. You do kind of sound like thatman, not that dark? No, No, but I really did want to stress we really can't gloss over the books. You can't talk to a Muslim and be like, yo, so this pork eating guy, right, he gets it. No, they'll be like, m that's not no, that's not what our faith said. So it's important if you're going to debate people about their faith, you've got to at least like acknowledge what their faith says. Like you just be like, this is my opinion on your faith, and my opinion trump's every single thing that the book that you is that what you think I'm doing right now? Justin? Is that what you think I'm doing right now. I mean, you just said you're you're you just said what happens if a fake Christian, someone who is doing evil gets into Heaven? Well that that is illogical to me because why would that person? All right? If so, don't follow you see what I'm saying, Like, how does that work? So I've had this podcast for thirteen years. I have spent most of my shows before I got reasonable with the timing. We're between three to five hours. I've had theology professors. I've had theology professors, pastors, preachers, priests, you name it on this show. I've had I've had lay Christians. I've had all kinds of people on the show. Before I started the show, I did a fourteen year journey into Christianity religion. I was a believer, wrote a book about it, published a book in twenty ten called Baptized Atheist to the audiobook version. In twenty twelve, became the editor of the American Atheist magazine, where I interviewed Christians, debated Christians. I've been on the formal debate scene. I've done more than fifty public debates at universities with PhDs and theology professors. I've read the Bible literally cover to cover. I've compared versions. I've done atheist Bible study segments on my podcast for eight out of the thirteen years it existed. I know the faith, I know the Bible, I know the rituals. You know that it says Christians don't get into heaven, right, that's not so. What I know justin. What I know justin is that justin, what I know is that I can set a Christian across from me in this studio and they will flat out tell me there is no free will in heaven because you're there to worship God. And then the next week I can put another Christian across this table and they'll go, of course, there's free will in heaven. You can do whatever you want. You just love people so you don't want to do harm. And then the next week I can have another Christian across from me and they'll be like, oh, atheists get into heaven, man, it's all about smoking weed and being happy. My point is what your faith is is very different from other people who call themselves Christians. How do we ever know exactly what Christianity is? Because there's a book, Well, that book has contradictions and is left up to interpretation. I mean, yeah, but where does it say you get to treat people like shit and get into heaven? Can you show me that passage? Since you just told me all your accolades, which I'm very that's awesome. I'm so happy for you, Dear God, I'm so happy for you. But show me in the Bible where it says you can treat people like shit and the Christian yeahweh. Since we're speaking like, let me say the big homie name, yeah, Jesus. Where does it say that Jesus says, yo, and ye shall treat people horribly and I shall reward you. Where did I say that? Yeah, So that's a strong man. I've never said the Bible says that. What I'm telling you is that's my Let me finish, justin, Let me finish, justin, justin, let me finish. Dude. You can't just dude, You can't just hear two words of my answer and start talking over me. I promise you this is going to make sense. That's my argument when I bring these hardcore Republicans on that they're not following the Bible. I talk about all the time, if Jesus were here today, there's one thing he wouldn't be, and that's a Republican Christian. I talk about the Bible and sane man, you can't do the question you just said. You just said very clearly, what happens if these fake people. These people claim to be good, these people claim to do this shit, but they're doing wrong and treating people badly. We're talking about We're not talking about anything. We're talking about the Christian faith. Where does it say you can treat people like shit and get into heaven? So not a straw man. It is a strong man, because I never said the Bible says if you treat people like shit, you get into heaven. But I will say that in matt I will say I will say that in Matthew seven twenty one. These people are talking about getting into heaven and Jesus says to them that They say, to Jesus, do we not cast out demons in your name? Did we not worship you and follow you? And he says to them, you have to do the will of my Father who is in heaven in order to end of the kingdom. Get away from me, those of you who practice lawlessness. Now, what is the will of the Father in heaven. Do we go back to the six hundred and thirteen levitical commandments in the Old Testament? What does he mean when he says you have to do the will of my Father. How do we know the will of the Father until we go back to the Old Testament. My point is these Republicans, these Republicans as Isel. These Republicans will quote certain aspects of the Bible to say I'm doing God's will because I am stopping abortion or health care for women or women in the workplace and right. But they will do that according to the Bible and think, honestly believe they are doing God's work. And then I get a more left leaning and then I get a more left and then I get a more left leaning Christian in here that goes, Nah, yeah, what those people are doing is evil. Sure, I agree with you on that, but but both of you have scriptures to back up your works, so it's quite possible and agree that unless I'm missing something and I just have completely missed everything about what I know. Do you want to hurt people or not? It's something like we can a lot of people when it comes to the base try to create this vague situation, but No, Bible doesn't say to treat people like shit. Bro. It don't say that. It as love thy neighbor, as thyself, don't it says, don't if don't point out flaws. I'm paraphrasing because I told you I'm not super don't be super quick to point out other people's flaws until you look at yourself. So I hear everything you're saying. But to me, a lot of this is like, are you a trash human or not? Bro? Do you believe in being a track because I'm not out here thinking I'm gonna slap nobody. I'm not out here trying to persecute nobody. I'm not out here. That's the real thing that I'm at war with. Bro. Like, a lot of this stuff that people be talking about to me is like dogmatic distraction. There are people out here. I rescue people from human sacrifice cults. In real life, there is a war going on. So to me, the truth, the true question is are you helping people or are you hurting people? I don't know. That's that's the way I see it. Do you do you think that some people that are hurting people believe believe they are helping I come from a family that genuinely believes they are the best people on the plant. I come from a lot of circles where people the Crusades. They believe they were right. You see what I'm saying. I've Trump supporters people who who have pointed weapons at me during recording sessions because I'm black, Like they literally just got mad because I'm black. They believe they're the KKK, believes that they're doing the right thing. If we all just went based on our feelings, where would you be? That's my point. You know, I don't know, that's my point. So so I you know that there are people, specifically just because I brought it up, I mean the Republican Party, that believe they're doing the right thing. There. You know, there are Bible verses that say that gay people should be killed, and that why why should you do that? I don't believe that gay people should be killed. Personally, my personal beliefs in me care about what you do in your bedroom. That's my personal bok okay, But it's in the Bible. In the Bible, God says. In the Bible, God says, if you believe that God is this part of the Bible, he says that they should be killed so that all of Israels shall hear and fear, and you put the evil away from among you. You should kill them for doing that. It also says Paul writes that if a woman has any questions in the church, she should keep her mouth shut and go home and ask her husband, because it is shameful for women to speak in church. It is shameful for a woman to have any sort of authority over a man. We don't behave that way now. So is it is it biblically accurateated for a lot of prostitutes in women as well? Mary Magdalen, Jesus stood up. So I don't know you're quoting from all over the place, you know, but I know that Jesus definitely stood up for women's wife writes quite a few times. I know, as somebody who's written for trans artists, somebody who's written forget. I'm a ghost writer too, I've written for all types of At the end of the day, like I keep saying, do you believe in helping or hurting? Are you helping or hurting? Not? Let me take away? Do you believe? Are you building or are you destroying? That's what I'm about, like to me that we should be able to at least find common ground. Are you going out here trying to hurt people? Are you going out here trying to help people in a real way, not just based on your belief you know what I mean, not just what you think. Yeah, some of those people, some of those people that get on right wing watch dot org because they say crazy shit. I've had them as my guest on my show and I will sit across from them, or sometimes it's over zoom or whatever, and I'll play quotes that they've said that are just horrific about slavery or about women, or about gay people, just horrible shit. And I'll say, and I'll say to them, justin hold on, hold on, hold on, I'll say, I'll play their clip for them, and then I'll be like, why would you want to hurt people like this? And they reply, no, no, No, I'm helping them by showing them what the Word of God says because I love them. They may not like it, but I promise you this is good for them. Yeah, but they're weirdos, Like we don't just dive into psycho. If Hitler showed up and was like, yo, I'm totally doing the right Like, just because someone feels they're doing the right things doesn't mean that it's the right thing. Like just be like, look, I got another scripture for you, since we quote them. That's first Thessalonians five twenty one prove all things hold fast to what is good, what all things prove? So also this doubles back to your conversation about free will in heaven and everything. Are you proving it? Because a lot of people feel that Christianity is about having blind faith and just blindly following things and blindly quoting scripture? Can you prove that what you're doing is good? And if it ain't good, you're supposed to let it go. That's what I live my life. You're talking about all these other people, But you've gotten me on you know what I mean? I don't. Yeah. Proverbs three five says lean not on your own understanding, but trust in the Lord your God. And what a lot of people do is what a lot of people do? Is they they that gives them the license to stop thinking about it logically and go, well, I'm just gonna trust in the Lord my God. Well what does that mean? God? Nobody ever? Justin Nobody ever says, yoh, look, I know God disagrees with me on this, but I think he's wrong here. No, everyone always assumes that God agrees with whatever it is that they think and feel. God agrees with their politics. God agrees with their views on trans rights and women and marriage equality. God always agrees with the Christian I'm talking to in that moment. So it seems that God and the personality seem to be meld together. And if I'm wrong about that, tell me, is there something that you disagree with God about? I definitely one percent have angry prayed of the God, like, bro, why don't you just give me a million dollars? Like bruh, where's my million? Bro? I've definitely done that. I've disagreed with God on so many things. But I can tell you I got an answer for why God didn't give me a million dollars. You know, I definitely got an answer. I got an answer for quite a lot of the things I complained about. If God gave me a million dollars, probably ten years ago, i'd be in jail. Hut. I would have gone and bought a pack. Allegedly, that's what they say about me. You know what I mean. So I think that I call myself a spiritual scientist, Like I believe someone came what we were. We got super off track with some of the stuff. But someone came to my school one day and he stressed the importance of science and Christianity not having to be at odds and to me, prove all things hold to what is good? Sounds like the scientific method. What's your hypothesis? Did you test it out? The Bible also says faith without works is dead. So if you're just I don't, I don't trust feelings. You know, they enhance the human experience. But if we're just going by what you feel, you're going to be tasting your tail all day. No, you've got to prove it over here. That's how I believe. Well, but I mean, but okay, I'm going to say this one thing to this and we're going to get into the exorcism thing before we close it out. But but science definitely runs in contrary to religion because there are multiple claims within Christianity that are quite literally physically impossible physically in the sense of physics, as far as people like like miracles, miracle claims in the Bible that Jesus use spit and mud to cure a man's blindness, that Jesus floated up to heaven, that that you never seen a miracle before. No, I just describe one to you. The well you don't know that. You don't know that you hold on. You asked me if I've seen it. You asked me if I You asked me if I've seen one, and then you said, I just described it to you. I've heard many allegations, I've never seen a miracle. To answer your question, would you see one? If you don't? But anyway, I was dating a medical student and she said, when she went through school, they explained, YO, you're going to see some things that don't make sense. People will come back to life, people come and people die and come back to life at hospitals all the time. That's not a miracle. I mean not. I mean there are scientific reasons why those things happen. But I mean there's no uh life and there's no there's no scientific there's no scientific proof of someone being dead for three days and coming back to life. There's no scientific proof of people materializing into a spiritual world or curing blindness with spirit lid into a spiritual world. You can't prove No, there's not a science. But I can tell you that I've asked for projected quite a few times in my life. Okay, there's no scientific evidence to support it. What we're talking about is the difference between scientific proof and religion. You can have a belief that you did, but but we can't prove it empirically that you did. There's a there's a Bible claim that the sun froze in this there's a claim that the sun froze in the sky for like ten to twelve hours or something. We know that's literally impossible, that there's no way the sun could freeze in the sky, but the Bible claims that happen. There's tons of stuff like that. What none of that stuff. It sounds to me like I'm speaking to someone who has made their mind up and doesn't want to be convinced of anything other than what they think. It kind of sounds to me like like if I even tell you about what I've experienced you, it'll be met with skepticism. Yeah. Absolutely, I mean, yeah, that's what this entire podcast is. I'm a skeptic of your beliefs, but you have a platform to share it with other skeptics and maybe someone will be convinced. I am a skeptic of those things. I don't believe you're lying. I believe that you believe you experienced it, but I believe there are other explanations for the things that you feel you experience. So I think you'd pass a lit detective heart. You know that if you don't know, if you don't know what I've experienced, how do you know? How do I know that I haven't experienced these things with other people around me? How do you know so much about me? I didn't say I know it about you. I'm saying in general, justin when people tell me these things, when you say, you're going to be met with skepticism, over these thirteen years, time after time again, it always ends up being, oh, yeah, by the way, I was on mushrooms, or yeah I took d MT, or yeah I was on meth really bad. And so that that tends to be the situation that there's some other explanation or something in the brain or a chemical thing, or half asleep a dream. There's always some traumatic event or something. I am skeptical of the metaphor of the of the metaphysical or supernatural, because that youet to be proven scientifically, And that's that's where I stand with it. I'm open to ideas that I'm open to evidence, but I'm not just gonna believe someone who tells me things was stopping you from getting your what's that? I think that your perspective is stopping you, Like there could be a miracle happening right now. Somehow I found my way to this podcast right out of all the millions of people in the world that have rewilled. Somehow I found my way here that in itself, if you have the right mindset to be seen as a miracle, miracles ain't always super big, crazy things, but if you don't look for it, you won't see it. That's my perspective anyway. Okay, I think it's a pretty valid explanation as to why you made it here. But okay, moving on to Hey, Hey, thank you for your time. Bro. You don't want to talk about exorcism. You have a good day, Bro, God bless you. You don't want to talk about exorcism, justin why are you leaving? No, I'm not really interested in sharing any of that, bye, though, Why can you tell me why. Hmmm, well that was a waste of time. What do you think went wrong? He didn't like his views being challenged, didn't like my skepticism. I mean, I had a hard time really getting anything out. I feel like he wasn't really prepared to be challenged on these issues. It seemed more of a struggle than a conversation. I don't know if he thought he was just going to be interviewed. Maybe it's not his fault. Maybe he thought he was going to be interviewed and just get to tell whatever he wants and I was going to say, great answer next question. I mean, I know Aaron, the new producer. I've told him make sure everybody knows that they're coming in for a debate. Oh yeah, Sometimes these conversations goes. Sometimes these conversations go this way. I'm not really sure what else I could do other than I guess before the recording I should say I'm gonna push back. I mean, I thought that's kind of the whole point of the show being called Dogma debate. I'm not really sure, but Justin's not happy, and that's unfortunate because I am open, I'm open to evidence, but I want to be very clear for anyone out there listening, including justin Your personal anecdotal story may be evidence for your belief, but for someone else, it's a story. It may be true, it may not be. It may be your interpretation of that story. It may be a personal experience that you feel you had and maybe it didn't go the way you remember it. Maybe it did. But if someone is skeptical of your belief, it doesn't mean that they are closed minded. It means you haven't provided empirical evidence to change their mind. That's what this show is about. Come on and provide your perspective and provide your evidence, but you also gotta let the host talk. You got to let the host get through an explanation or a series of questions. If you're open to the dialogue, come on the show. Go to David csmalley dot com, click on be a guest, fill out the form, but be sure to let the conversation happen. And yes, I'm going to be skeptical of your beliefs. It's not a personal attack. It's skepticism. It's a discussion. I've done this for thirteen years and that's only the second time out of over six hundred in fifty episodes, only second time someone has hung up to leave the conversation, and the other one shockingly Brian Fisher, who has been featured multiple times on right wing watch dot org. Why did he hang up because I used the words white privilege. I explained to him what white privilege was, and he said, you used that word again, David, and I'm hanging up. And I said, Brian, first of all, don't threaten me on my own show. I said, Brian, I'm just trying to explain to you the ideas behind white privilege. I'm not saying and boom, he was gone. So Brian Fisher hung up into the show. That is the only time that's ever happened until today. Justin said he wasn't even going to go into the exorcisms, and I guess I'll save my notes on exorcisms. I spent about while I was eating, about fifteen minutes before the recording. I pulled up a quick little Ted Talk and I looked at certain things that get confused for exorcisms and demons, and I wanted to talk to him about that. He said he's actually performed exorcisms, and I wanted to get into the mental health issues behind exorcisms. So I guess we'll try again. But you got to be open to hearing ideas you don't like. I'm not sure if Aristotle actually said this. I've read conflicting quotes. I used to quote Aristotle when I said this, and now I've heard that his quote is actually a lot more complicated than this, but we've watered it down to this. Nonetheless, the quote is it is the mark of an educated mind to entertain an idea without accepting it. So I'm here to entertain your ideas, but I'm not here to accept all of them. I can entertain your thoughts and challenge them and ask questions about them, and not accept them. Can you do the same? Can you entertain my challenges? Can you entertain my ideas that perhaps your ideas are wrong without accepting it, or without hanging up and leaving the conversation. I don't know. I just feel like we need more dialogue in the world. We need more conversations. We need to resurrect nuance. We need to be able to come to the table and have these discussions as I do week in and week out with people who disagree with me. So who knows, Maybe justin'll come back on. Maybe we can get into the exorcism discussion. Maybe he misunderstood what the show was about. I don't know. I don't want to blame him or throw any shade. I just wish the conversation went differently, but they're not all going to be home runs. Thank you so much for listening, for being a part of the show. Unfortunately, there's no extended Patreon version this time because we were going to get into some extra things in there and now he's gone. So there's plenty of episodes where there is extended stuff. So if you do want to support the Patreon, it's patreon dot com slash David c smally. I would love to know your comments, and you can do that on Patreon. So that's where the conversation continues. Patreon dot com slash David c smally. We're going to be in the comments trying to get to the bottom of what went wrong, What did I do wrong. I definitely didn't want him to feel like he was being trapped. I'm sorry that he felt that way. I'm looking forward to your feedback and your comments on Patreon. David csmallly dot com for all of the comedy tour tickets. Trust me, I'm actually funny on stage. This was not my stand up today. This was my sit down, all right. Until next time, please drive like you know each other.