Hello, and welcome to the show. I'm Martin Willis your host, and we have a great show for you this evening. We have Shane Heard. I met him out in Arizona. He has a book basically for beginners. I think that's very important. There are always a lot of new people watching this show and paying attention to the subject. With everything that's been going on lately, I may look like I'm out of breath, and for those of you that know me, well, you would be laughing and say, yeah, that's kind of typical. But I just got into a hotel room I realized I wasn't gonna make it to my destination. Booked a hotel, got in, hooked everything up, and well we are here. We made it. So second hour tonight as Chris O'Brien, I got to spend a little time with him also in Arizona. He's in Sedona and I had a fun visit with him. He'll be on for the second part of the show. This week's blog is a follow up to last week's blog, and that's a woman transported by a UFO question mark, And so there's a follow up that's updated that only happened back in November so that's up from Charles Lear on the website. All our blogs are turned into audio blogs and they're on the podcast stream. By the way, you can get this podcast if you're watching on YouTube or other places that we live stream on. You can also get the podcasts on anywhere you can get your other podcasts. We should be there. If we're not, let me know so I'll get on a site that I am unaware of. But so I want to thank everyone that helps out with the show, and anyone can do that. All you have to do is go over to podcast ufo dot com. There's a Patreon link over there. I was on Chris Ledos show the other day. That was a lot of fun. He's a great guy. He's the the fighter pilot that was on this show that's doing a lot of great work with UFO. So a shout out to Chris. And last week we had John Ramarazon. That's that's given me a lot of emails. Um he's an interesting person to say the least. Also, if you haven't checked it out, please check out the UFO sighting that I have posted on my YouTube stream from last week. Albert Um what's his last name? I've got his last name. I'm sorry, but it's a great it's a great UFO sighting, one of the most intriguing UFO sightings I've ever heard, actually, So check that out on the YouTube live stream. A lot of people have already looked at it. I think it's up to five thousand something hits already, so it's really really interesting. I without further ado, whatever the heck do means, I'm bringing in my guests. How you doing. Nice to see your Shane, Shane Martin. Yeah, well you're a little blurry, so this good thing. That's an audio podcast. But you look mysterious that way, so that's that's a good look for you. Yeah, so that's that's what I get living on the outskirts of town, right, Yeah, that's right. You're out in the desert, right, Are you out in the desert or just the outskirts? Yeah? So Shane, Yeah, Yeah, it was a real pleasure meeting you out there in Arizona. You have a tremendous beard, by the way, that is one cool beard you got going there. Um, but the show's not about beards. However, I have a podcaster that listens to the show that does a podcast on beards. That's what he does. That's pretty funny. So anyway, I want to find out what got you interested in the first place in the UFO topic. But eventually I would like to talk about Phoenix Lights and about your book as well. Okay, well it sounds great, yes, I you know, I'm a I'm a child of the sixties, right, the space race generation. Right, So as a young kid, I always had a fascination with space and astronauts in the whole thing, and even UFOs. And this would have been the late seventies, so UFOs were in the public in the media. Now most of the time it was on you know, the National Enquirer on the news stand next to the checkout line at the supermarket. But you know, so I had a mild interest. But you know, as you grow older and you you know, start your life off, got married, had kids, and you know, developing a career that it was just kind of a you know, a backseat option for me. You didn't really pay much attention. But as a resident of the city of Phoenix, and this ties into discussing the Phoenix Lights in nineteen ninety seven March, you know, I was living here and I know what I was doing that night. I know exactly where I was at. Like many people, we were viewing the hell Bop comment. We were with some friends at our house on the outskirts of Scottsdale. Very dark and you know we're able to see that and it was real cool. But I did not see Phoenix lights. However, what ensued thereafter really intrigued me. I mean, it just blew up media wise. You know, there was experts on TV and the news, and you had national and you had local and just you know, all of this stuff going on, and it did capture my imagination, but I really didn't. That's when I started to kind of pay attention to UFOs and about that time, you started having television programs that had you know, UFO topics and things, and I followed that way. But twenty ten is when I really kind of got serious about it. And the first book I read was The Day After Roswell by Bill Burns and Philip J. Corso when I read it, you know, again, I hadn't really looked into anything, and I thought it was a little you know, questionable, I guess, and in fact I almost stopped there. But just so having that Leslie Kane's book came out, UFOs generals, pilots and public officials go on the record. When I read that, it was clear to me this was written by, you know, a professional journalist, investigative journalist. And the way it was laid out, the case data, I mean, it was just it really really gripped me. And I'm like, okay, there is legitimate, real information here. And so, you know, I started reading every book I could get my hands on, and watching television shows and getting you know, documentaries, the whole thing. And then about twenty fifteen or so, I'm like, well, now I kind of have all this knowledge and stuff. What am I going to do with it? You know? And I wanted to engage, you know, I wanted to play. I wanted to have my own experiences, not just read about other people's, right And so I looked around. I started getting on Facebook and connecting with people, and you know, ultimately I became aware of a mouf On and decided, well, you know, I've spent twenty five years in government service myself. I know I can function in a big organization. It seems like there was a point to it. You know, I'm going to join Moufon. See what the deal is, and eventually I became an investigator and now I'm assistant director of Arizona and mouf Ons. So it's been, you know, from twenty ten till now ten years, eleven years, it's been wild. Ride. Has been a lot of fun. But that's really my path. How I got here. Well, you know, you you bring up a good point where you almost turned away, and you know, it's funny, I've I see things happening. There's a lot of strangely enough parallels between the fine art business and antiques and collecting and UFOs in a way, and this is the way it is. You may read something that sounds not quite right, and or you watch videos you're really interested in the UFO topic, and all of a sudden you realize you've been watching fake, fake videos, and then you just you just go, oh, that's it. I'm done. There's a bunch of looney's here. I don't want anything to do with them. That happens also in the art and antique business. Someone buys a fake they think is something authentic, and they buy it fake and they say, that's it. I'll never collect again. So I caution the people that are new into this and we're gonna be talking about your book, you know later on the Guide A Sginner's Guide, because it's really really important to get your information, make sure you get your information from the right places. Nothing against Bill Burns. He's a wonderful guy. He was my second guest on this show. Um, and and he's very very intelligent. He's welcome back on my show anytime. But Philip, I've heard, you know. I mean, I don't want to say, you know, a poor of a person that can't defend himself, but yeah, I have heard a number of people mentioned similar things. That's that's all. I'll put it as far as that goes. But all right, let's talk about the Phoenix Lights because you looked at it after you became um, you know, really into this topic, right yeah, yeah, So it's, um, you know, when you're a resident of the city of Phoenix, even if you're not a UFO person, you're pretty aware of the Phoenix Lights case. And um, there was you know from my perspective, now I am stand you know, it's one of the its probably one of the largest mass sightings of a UFO in modern history. Right, Literally thousands of people saw this, these things and you know, to recap just for anyone that's that's listening, what happened in March of nineteen ninety seven is a very large vehicle and actually reports of multiple vehicles flew from basically Henderson, Nevada, which is just outside of Las Vegas, diagonally across the state of Arizona all the way into Mexico. And it started around seven pm and lasted till about ten or eleven PM. And that in fact, move On, Phoenix, Move On. We meet in the Arizona Historical Museum and they allowed us to create an exhibit in the state's history Museum of the Phoenix Light Incident. And one of the things we feature is a map, and what it maps out is every there's like a pin for every person in their location from where they called either like nine one one or mouf on or move New Newfork. And you can physically plot the path of these UFOs by the phone calls and the timing and the reports of those who saw it, which I think that's fascinating. I'm a gis guy, a mapper, you know, cartography, and so you know that just you know, for me, that was really really cool. But the data you know, which we always are starving for when it comes to UFOs. I mean, the data is there, it's meaningful, it's confirmed by multiple organizations, including law enforcement. So that's a very real thing. And is that that craft passed over over the state again US Phoenix is like the largest city in the nation. It was a parade, it was a show, it was a demonstration, you know, and a lot of people saw that. And then the second piece to that was a series of lights that appeared over a mountain range southwest of Phoenix called the Estrayas which in the Native American language, which that's taken as basically star mountains right and star people. So that's kind of an interesting little twist there to it. But that's the video that some people caught, and that's what the television news program put on. Of course their visual everyone wants to see a video, and there really poor quality and few videos of the big crafts flying over. So that's the one that gets all the attention. Is that series of looks like seven six seven eight lights in sort of a boomerang configuration, and it hovered there for a period of time. And so there's been much debate, you know, the government claim Yeah, that was you know, airplanes dropping flares, and some people accept that and then other people say, no, those weren't flares and it was something different. You know, I'm not gonna get caught up in the controversy of all that, but but clearly something very unusual occurred and that is confirmable by data. Now some of the other stuff isn't confirmed, Like you know, Luke Air Force Base scrambled a couple of pilots F sixteens. They fly at her there and they apparently, you know, got close to this scene and were so upset by it that when they landed, one of the pilots had to be helped out of the aircraft. And you know, things like that. Those are stories that aren't confirmed. Interesting, So I don't like to hang my hat on that, but definitely, you know, it's a real event, it was historical. Had anyone ever interviewed that pilot or they just can't talk about it. I mean years have gone by now that's you know, we're going on, what are we coming up to? We're coming up to the thirtieth anniversary of that, you know, I mean it seems like that person would be long retired by by the way, I'm gonna say a little shout out to Tom King. He's in the chat now listening to the show. Tom King filmed the Phoenix Lights and he's in chat right now, So hello Tom. But interesting, there is a lot of controversy. For instance, I've heard that, you know, some speaking of filming the actual filming of the lights themselves, a lot of people saying, you know, there's not a lot of that. It's mostly when they actually did shoot the flares off. You know that people caught that on film, but not so much on the craft itself. What do you know about that aspect of it? Yeah, I do know that there are actually a couple videos of the craft flying over. Again. You gotta remember nineteen ninety seven the technology we're talking video tape, right, Those are video cassettes, Remember the big ones you'd set on your shoulder. Yeah, that was a technology at the time, and at night it was pretty poor quality. But you do see some lights flying over against a dark sky, so you know there's something there, and I believe there might be one other But let me say this. You know doctor lynd key Tie, she has kept this story alive and made made a couple of movies and book and so forth. And every year she does a memorial event, gather speakers together, plays a movie and some things like that. But you know, believe it or not, there are still new witnesses coming out UM on occasion. So UM last list twenty nineteen before covid UM, I didn't meet a gentleman from Sedona, Arizona who UM did not report it UM, but came out now and he had good, very good credentials UM and as a scientist, and he in fact saw this thing. But you know, it wasn't until he retired and was out out of that the that world that he felt comfortable coming forward. So you know, we may get some surprise video or something in the future, or somebody's son or daughter might find it or whatever. But UM, as far as I'm aware, there's a couple peuple of the videos for for the flair looking objects lights over the austraeas and one or two UM elsewhere in the States seeing the craft. And then doctor Lankey tie she had the sighting was more and just that night for her. She had recorded on multiple occasions some of these lights and some things nearer her home and some rite over downtown Phoenix. So you know, I don't think it was just a singular event. There are other events related to it, and some of these things are still even occurring today. We get these reports of these strange lights, you know, even over downtown. So that's that's interesting. It's always fascinated me. Ever since I started doing the show, I hadn't really looked into this topic. How something seems to repeat itself in a location. You know, if for instance that you know, one of the theories are that they're extraterrestrial and they arrive here from elsewhere, and it's always puzzled me, Well, the why is there a hot spot? What is why would the same craft be seen over the same area over and over again. It doesn't really make any sense that I mean, of course, I'm trying to think in human terms. Maybe they have a different way of thinking, and you know, I don't even you know, it's crazy stuff though, how it just keeps happening. So so you think it is. We got a little bit of a lag, and I apologize to the listeners, so when I stopped speaking, it takes a little while for you to hear me and all that. So when it comes to you said that we may still someday get more information. Do you really feel that that could happen? A lot of people would say, why are you talking about such an old case? You know, I get those emails all the time. I think because it's one of the amazing mass sightings that there have been, I mean, one of the probably the largest mass sighting anywhere in any time in our modern history. Really, yeah, no, I totally agree with you. And I think, in fact, I deal with a chapter in my whole book about the importance of um, what we can call classic cases, and and so, um, I don't think any case is ever completely dead. You know, as you just mentioned, we think in human terms, right, we're anthropo promorphic or procentric anthropos and we can't help but we think in human terms. But yeah, we we just see everything from the point of a view of a human and that's you know, logical, but it's limiting, right. But um, you know, maybe the reason they appear in the same places is maybe it's a portal. Maybe how they get here is in a fixed location or something. I don't know, but you know, it requires us to kind of really think out of the box. Now. I'm you know, I'm a I'm a big evidence guy as a as as an investigator, but you know, I think it's really important when when you look at it, let's say an old why would we still study that. Well, couple of things. One, maybe everything wasn't uncovered at the time, or maybe somebody who thinks a little differently picks up something else that others didn't pick up at the time. Or a big one is technology is different now. We have more resources, more tools, more things available to us to help identify, you know, things such as that. So to me, a case is never dead. It's in fact, when we do a moof on case, we kind of have a disclaimer at the end that says, you know, this is kind of what we think now some of the evidence we have, but you know, new evidence could come to light, and if it does, we can reopen this case and we can look at it in that new light. So I think, and then and then the other thing about classic cases is every case has a certain strength or weakness. So what I mean by that is one case might be really important because of who reported it. You know, we like to think, you know, military personnel or law enforcement or engineers you know, would be really or pilots would be really great, you know, witnesses and so one case might have that as a big chunk of its um you know evidence, but other ones might be great photographic or video evidence or something else may have actual trace evidence, chemical or radiological. Um. So you know, there's something to be learned from every case in that they are different and have different strengths and weaknesses. So that's, uh, that's something I think is really important. Yeah. Um, so one of the things i'd like to I hope it's all right with you. I'm trying to get ahold of Bill, but um, i'd like to invite Tom to talk with us for a couple of minutes. You up for that, Tom King? Oh? Yeah, absolutely? Yeah. All right, So Tom, if you're listening, I'm trying to get Bill to make sure he can take your call. But I'm gonna say, go ahead and give us a ring at eight five five four seven two five four eight three eight five five four seven two five four eight three, Tom King, give us a ring. And I didn't even mean to rhyme that, but anyway, yeah, he said he will be in a second, so hopefully Bill, Bill, you're supposed to be listening listening over at KGr A radio. Hopefully you're listening, Bill and you'll pick up pick up the phone. But um so I want to I want to hang in on this case just a little while longer. Of course, get get Tom in if possible. But also, you know, the aspect of someone that may not be listening, I mean that may be listening to this that maybe knew, is they don't know the Factor that the governor of Arizona, Fife Symington, was in a park and he saw this thing fly over him and he didn't talk about it for how long he kept it secret? Right ten years until two thousand and seven, and James Fox was interviewing, Okay, wow, yeah, that's that's something. And you know, I mean I didn't realize that's when he came came out with it, that he actually saw it himself. But for him to go forward and you know, he's tried to calm the public down and ridiculed, you know, the Factor made a joke of it. Really got a lot of people pretty angry when he did that. He's still not the last time I heard an interview of him, he didn't seem like real apologetic. I mean, I have seen him be a little apologetic, but anyway, we're bringing in. We'll bring him in right now. Tom King you on the line, Hello, Tom, Hi, how are you so? I've good? My good buddy, Dave. You know it's weird psychic thing. I haven't talked to him about two months and I was thinking about touching bass with him, and then he calls to say, we need your we need your thoughts over here. Because I lived through the Phoenix Lives videotaped him. Was one of the original investigators of it, along with Bill Hamilton, the late doctor Michael Tanner, and Jim dl Tesso, Richard Motzler and then the other debunkers that did an investigation of our investigation. Three. Thank you very much for calling in, And I do want to talk about this with a three of us. Are you and Shane? You know Shane's looked into it. He was there, of course. I don't know if you've heard that part of it how long you've been listening. But he was there when it happened, but not really into the topic. He did more looking into it afterward. But let's hear if we can. A lot of people have that are listening, are new to the UFO World, and I don't need to repeat exactly what happened, but if you can go into what your part of the investigation was, and also you're filming, and I understand by what you said in chat that things are still going on, I'd love to touch on that too. First of all, I came into this maybe fifteen twenty minutes ago, and I listened to Shane's breakdown about that far in and I have to say, don't disagree with anything that he was saying. His timeline of the thing coming down the state was pretty much in line what I say. We can get into the fine details of all that too. And then the other events that happened at ten o'clock that was another event. The more you get into these different events, the more you go down this rabbit hole of how crazy of stuff was going on that night, because there were separate events, different things going on at ten o'clock, easily multiple events. Just then it's it's mind boggling just knowing about what was going on that night, how many different events there were. As far as if you want to go in with five, five came out later. Let's go back to the beginning. Um, what happened was. I got a call and I think Mark twelfth from kind of my protege, Bill Hamilton, who was this underground base UFO researcher that lived up in Paradise Valley, Arizona, and he had published a couple of books on underground basis and stuff, alien magic and stuff like that. He was like a big, big time guy back in the UFO nineties and I was friends with him. He was a move On investigator. He had heard on the internet through I think it was UFO Updates, that there was a guy here in town named Steve Blonder that was seeing UFO's every night from his house in a location and kind of South Phoenix called Alatuki, and he was looking for somebody to look into it. They referred him to move On, which is normal channels right channels people in the move On. Then he said, okay, he's seeing this stuff every night. He says, Tom, get your gear, we're gonna go check this guy out. He says, there's a folds are every night. Right. This lines up what doctor Lee Ka Tai was seeing from her location where she was filming stuff over in this area periodically and night by night. So back then I filmed a bunch of daytime ufls before this, and had done some local press but not too much national. And Bill, you know, I was kind of getting a little name from myself around the town as a hardcore skywatcher. And twenty five years later, here we are, and Bill said, Okay, get your gear, and then we said, oh, let's meet at Village Labs Stephen Greers in town. He needs to transfer some tapes because Village Labs had all this video transfer stuff and computers. So anyway, we went out and then we went over to the Steve Blinder's house and it was like a circus. We pulled up and there were people running in and out of his house and I'm like, wow, this is weird. We felt like this was the uful version of Ghostbusters or something, you know, like were either here to film something or debunking something like show that deal. But we're guaranteed something's gonna show up. And it did. So we come into the house met Stevie says, you missed it. We're like, what, we missed it, and he goes, yeah, I recorded it again. So we go up in his house. We watched his footage almost all it's out of footage. It's all online, it's all linked up on my YouTube channel. It's all there historically, but most of it's out of focus, like nine. So I'm I don't want to be an asshole in his house and tell him a ship's out of focus, So I'm like, where are you filming this front? So he takes this out in the balcony and he's like, I'm over usually over here, and he goes, there's money. He points it out and we see it in me and Bill go, damn, damn, think normal, what's that? Something weird and orange that don't belong? And it's south of town right, it's not on the military range the goddamn things over Catholic grand if it whatever? It was the orange light. So I go down, run to the trunk and get out this huge bag of gear and we go out the telescope camera, all this stuff and a tripod and anyway. I got a system for me in a system for a buddy. So everybody tries to record. I'm the only one in record, So I record this organ south of town built camera malfunctions, or we would have had another video that Steve Blunder's camera malfunctions, or we would have malfunctions, battery dead. But do you guys need to talk or am I talking to you? No? No, this is good. The battery thing is something you hear all the time, you know, the battery. So we're gonna go like another another, not more than ten minutes though, because we have we got to get into Shane's book that he wrote. So but what was another you know, five or ten minutes or something like that. Okay, I'll wrap it up. So yeah, we record. The art goes away and then I'm showing Steve blonderhouse stuffs out of focus with this Batman type of auto focus thing that was the thing in the day from the aperture, and then this light shows up and it's this double light, and then the whole thing springs in front of us and shows up, and I recorded. I didn't think any We thought it was a pretty interesting sighting. I mean, we're adrenaline rushed and freaked out, but we didn't really think that much of it until the next day. There our phones were ringing off the hook and there were thousands of people that seem something and something shook the state this night. I mean it was a uf fose sighting. Uh, that place, this thing, this whole event that night on the map forever and then the how are five of us going to figure this out with no funding? M Yeah, So before you leave, Tom, maybe I'll invite you back at another point to talk more about this as well. But can you talk a little bit about what you though, what you said you were filming something lately. Let's talk a little bit about that. Uh. I got out of this, you know, I got burket out of this and uh two thousand and three because I filed a bunch more stuff and it seemed like I was just knocking my heading. It's a wall. I came back into it um in two thousand and sixteen. I got out when there was tape and got back in when there was HS or not VHS HD and four K. Uh. Now what I'm doing is I'm running surveillance cameras on the top of my house twenty four hours a day in four K. I also use the stuff like the P one thousand, a thermal camera, a couple of night vision cameras, and I'm skywatching out of the back of my yard as hard as I was when I was twenty five years old. And I've networked out with more people doing the same thing, where we're basically you're I don't want this is a bad term. Poor man's UAPx or your regular man's UAPx, just your regular guy working on his garage doing his version of UAPx as another version. So when UAPx comes out with their report and Galileo comes out with there's us different networked underground people in the UFOL hotspots come out with hours. So that's what I'm doing. Now. That's where I came front from the Phoenix Lights and I've arked over to hear excellent. Well, Hey, Tom, I really appreciate you calling in. That was great. It added a lot to the show and I really appreciate that. Thanks for having me, man, I really appreciate it. I'm I'm a pretty recluse guy. I'm hard to talk, too hard to get along with them, kind of like Bob Lazarre talked to you a few people, but close friends, very close, but not a lot of friends. I get it. I totally get it. But you guys think you guys look like you're doing a great show. So I'll spectator out and thanks for having me. All right, Tom, take care if you want to add anything to that, Shane, or you want to move on to talking about your book. No, no, no, I really don't have anything to add other than it's very cool to hear that there are other people out there doing that kind of a thing. And you know the power of the grassroots and stuff. And you know, when when these governments report, it's come out and stuff, it'd be great to compare the data and just see, you know, who's being truly transparent. Yeah, we can be helpful for that. Uh yeah, uh, that would be nice. I mean, there seems to be a lot of forward motion happening happening and which is kind of exciting. So I think it I think it could be on the on the right right track. And I do understand what Tom was talking about. I've heard about people getting like burnt out. You know, they're really into this and they get burnt out, you know, and uh, the feeling of knocking your head against the wall. Maybe people are not paying attention and this is good stuff and and it's uh, you know, talk down or ridiculed or whatever it is happening. It's it's not an easy thing to to hang in um and work hard at so and I we happily appreciate, you know, standing on the shoulders of these kinds of guys that you know, they're all getting older and there needs to be a new not that I'm young, but you know, there needs to be a new generation of people to come up and take this this kind of stuff over. So, I mean, I really appreciate the likes of Tom and others like that, and you know, I think it's incredibly valuable. So I do appreciate that. Yeah, yeah, yeah, And I know, as I mentioned earlier, there's a really big lag between us. So when I stopped for the silence, it's gonna be a long silence. But I'm gonna ask you to talk about your book and what made you decide to write that book? Absolutely so, I think the thing that triggered me most was I had mentioned before. You know, I kind of had all this knowledge, You've done all this research, What am I gonna do with it? Added to that, you know, the experiences I've had in Moufon and you know, I've investigated, you know, over a hundred cases and talk to a lot of people and it, you know, done a lot of things. And but the thing that triggered me to write the book. Really was when the TTSA came out in December of twenty seventeen and the New York Times article, and we know all that that's accomplished, And to me, the most significant thing it's accomplished is it has diminished the ridicule factor for people who wanted to demonstrate interest in this topic. And now we've come to the point in four short years that the actual Navy has admitted UFOs are real. We see a government program coming up and my thought was, look, wow, there's a bunch of old guys, you know, who have been involved with researching UFOs for a long time, and tough guys you know, took the ridicule and all that. But you know they're getting older and they're passing on, and you know, we need a younger generation of people to kind of pick up this mantle. And to me, the release of that taboo has triggered h an onslaught of newly interested people, young generation, my generation, and it's um so for me. I know that when I first came into this, like my experience with the Roswell book, I didn't have anything to measure that against. You know what I'm saying, And Again, I'm not bashing Bill or courso at all. I'm just saying, you know, it was a bare naked, you know, um introduction to that topic with no context, and it kind of weirded me out. Okay, but now you know, I've I've got contexts. I look at that book differently, But to me, what I wanted to do was help people that are newly interested to get into the topic without falling down the crazy rabbit holes that can be there. You know. Um. I devote a chapter to what I call the wheat and chaff of upology, which is, you know, the good information and the bad information. We can talk more about that, but the concept behind the book is is, you know, unidentified aerial phenomena, and people are now getting familiar with that term instead of UFO and a Beginner's Guide to researching. So the idea was to you know, gather these topics and the information, put it in a book that a newly interested person could take up the book and say, hey, look, you know these are the these are the shoes, and you follow, this is the real stuff, this is the fake stuff. What makes good evidence, what makes the good witness and you know, just you know, to help people think critically. You know, we want to be skeptical, absolutely, and I am skeptical. However, we also want to be open minded. And so for me, like as an investigator, I go in with no you know, I attempt to overcome my biases and approach an investigation as agnostically as I can and base it on the evidence. So you know, it's that mentality that I'm trying to encourage. So just you know, I'll just a couple of chapters of the books, you'll kind of get what I'm talking about. First of all, what is UAP. I go into a thorough explanation of what it is, and the and the historical context, which I think is super important. Right, UFOs is a dirty word, or has been a dirty word for seventy years, not so much now because attitudes change, but you know, knowing the context and the history behind it, to me is critically important. And I talk about miss I identification, which is a very common occurrence and it represents probably eighty ninety percent of UFO reports. And then hoaxes, but hoaxes are actually very minuscule part of it. But maybe we'll talk more about hoaxes. I recategorize there's a couple of categories. Of those, I talk about the scientific method, what forms of evidence are good, you know, classic cases, the wheat and chaff. I talk about the cover up. And I have a favorite little pet topic within that is political science and ufology, which is really based on a paper by Alexander Went and Raymond Duval, two political scientists who wrote a report called a white paper called UFOs and Sovereignty, absolutely brilliant. It changed the way I saw everything, you know, it was fantastic. And then ultimately following the evidence, which is what we want to be able to do. And so again, my whole concept was to help a newly interested person get acquainted with the topic, avoid the crazy stuff, and be able to think critically on their own. Well, what you know, what is good information, what isn't. So that's really been the concept behind it. That's excellent, and I appreciate that you are doing this. And there are a lot of young people. I was corrected by that by doctor Michael Masters when he was on the show. He said, no, no, there's a lot of young people right now really looking into this topic deeply. I have someone coming up, a young person that Christina Gomez that's she's part of the debrief. I think she's coming up and I think let's see in January. But so there are a lot of a lot of young people. I think it's great again you know, hopefully they can get the right information. I'm going to ask you this, if you're listening, say someone's listening for the first or second time, and they want to know where to get the real information? You know, do you tell them like Leslie's book or or something like that. I mean, what do you tell someone you actually speak to when it comes to someone starting out. Yeah, I definitely recommend Leslie's book first and foremost. Read that absolutely, that acquaints them with significant cases and again is written in a very cogent manner, and it's not sensationalistic, and it bides evidence and all those things I also recommend. And this is what I did. I followed up those two that book with Richard Dolan's two volumes set of UFOs in the National Security State that again profiles hundreds of cases that were in Blue Book, but again provides the political context around those cases. And this whole issue of um intelligence, our national intelligence, and its relationship to to uphology, the study of UFOs of course UFOs himself, but it goes beyond that. It's you know, like you and I right here in our listeners, people demonstrating an interest in UFOs was a real burr under the saddle of the government for a long time. Right. So again, just being aware of the context of this kind of stuff can be really helpful and interpreting information that you read. But yeah, I definitely say, you know, go to go read a book like that, you know those books. Um, I tell people stay away from, you know, the channels that just post video and lea it up to you to decide whether it's real or not, because you know, most of the time it's not. And frankly, some of them are completely open about that, and then others try and hide that. And I equate that to a hoaxing, and I guess I better qualify it. You know, if a channel not only puts up stuff that they know it is not a UFO, but it looks like it and it's cool and they want hits to me, that's a hoax. Now. There there's no doubt people who in earnest post things that end up not being genuine, but they don't know that. That's not to me, that's not a hoax. That's just purveying misinformation or disinformation, or it's just the act of of you know, learning or not knowing. And you know, it's very difficult to chase down the providence of a video that's posted, you know, on the internet, even if somebody wants to take the time to try and chase that down and verify. I mean, it's very difficult to do. So I don't blame people for not doing that, but I just say, you know, avoid those kinds of things. Look for look for serious information from credible sources, so sources, you know, UM, and you always have to take that source with the green of salt right so government. There's many, many hundreds of wonderful documents from the forties on that clearly articulate, articulate the reality of UFOs. In my mind, that's already been disclosed. That's that's nothing, um. And some of those reports are good. But on the other hand, you got to be careful because we know that the United States Air Force, particularly with Blue Book, was a misinformation campaign, and so you've got to, you know, you just got to use your common sense, set your BS meter. I talk about in the book and then you know other sources. So, um, I guess you know, if it seems too good to be true, it probably is. You just have to be careful. But again I go into a lot of points there in the book, how to identify what's quality information and what isn't. Yeah, and that kind of goes along with sightings too. By the way, a suggestion for books um up here also is Valley's Dimensions, Confrontations and Revelations, Passport to Magonia, John Keel's Operation Trojan Horse. Those are all good books as well, and thank you for that, Chris m. But you know, when it comes to when someone has a sighting, you know, for instance, UM, I had a sighting a while back and I showed it to a bunch of people. It's ninety percent chance it's a drone, you know, most likely a drone, but it was it was a fabulous video. I've had a lot of people look at it. But you know, I mean I didn't run and say this is definitely a UFO. It's it's you know, it's definitely you know, from out of this world or whatever. You know, you it's really good to pass something that you have if you are lucky enough to film it pass it along to someone. I sent mine to Mark d' antonio for one, and you know, he looked at it and said, you know, it looks like a drone. It acts like a drone, you know, like looks like a duck, acts like a duck. Must be a duck. So but it did some It did a couple of weird things. And the wind was really high wind too that night, so it was weird that there was a drone flying around, but it mostly he was so, you know. I mean, one of the things I tell people too, and it's not my advice, it's one I've heard from other people that I respect is that if you see something immediately as quick as you can, and you don't have a camera or whatever, write down everything you can the time. You know, what the weather was, everything, what you saw. Draw a picture. You know, again, if you don't have a camera, you know, draw a picture of what you saw right away, because your memory will, you know, miss it'll change things around on you. So it's good to do it right away and don't talk to any other way is just to your own thing, because when people start sharing something it kind of blurs it as well. Blurs your memory like playing telephone. Yeah. Yeah, so we got about five minutes left here yea and exactly so yeah, um, and so I want, I guess I would like to ask you a little bit about the move On boot Camp. I was out there and you were there. That was that was really fantastic. Yeah, and so is there one gonna is there another one going to happen in the next year or so? Do you know when that's gonna happen. Yep, it's gonna be the first week of November twenty twenty two. It will be our fourth I think, our fourth year in a row on the boot camp. Glad you were there. That was very cool. It was um, you know, great to have you there as well as we had some folks from Vice TV. They came and that's what I just posted in our on that yeah the other day about their experience there at the boot camp. And so what we do is we offer about forty seats to anybody that would like to attend, and it's over two day weekend type thing. We do a half day in the classroom and then half day out in the field and we talk about topics like you know, interviewing skills, which is taught by two police officers who are also move On investigators. We talk about how to actually do cases and go through our case management system. We talk about some extraordinary cases and what makes the case extraordinary, the type of data that there is. We have a mental health professional talk about you know, healthy and unhealthy mental states of people and things that you can do to help you determine, you know, a level of credibility of the witnesses that you're talking to. UM, and just you know, UH, photo and video analysis do a wonderful presentation on that, and that the unique character of cameras and how they are are you know, wrought with with UM you know, frailties that can create images that are confounding, but you know they're just current camera artifacts things like that. But UM, just very useful tools, very specific stuff. And then in the field UM, we've had training by two federal officers law enforcement UM known as the Navajo Rangers, who have literally had thousands of hours of investigation. But these two gentlemen are some of the most awesome people you ever meet, and their experiences are unbelievable. Well, they are actually known as the Paranormal Rangers, and it was their job to investigate paranormal cases within um, the Native American community, and and they've got story is that just blow your mind, absolutely blow your mind. So um, but they also teach us how to you know, forensically process a crash site. I mean, who gets that kind of trigging? You know? Awesome? Yeah, yeah, speaking of that, that's a good segue. And to be saying that, next week's guest is John Dover, one of the Navajo Rangers. He'll be on right here next week. Yeah, m hm, excellent. Well yeah that should be great. Why don't you give the name of your book. I did put the book in the in the link to the text for this show, So the name of the book, and um, it's on m on right, okay, yep, yep, yep. It's uh Unidentified Aerial Phenomena, A Beginner's Guide to researching. You bose with an awesome introduction my good friend, um Jason McClellan. So if i'd been my name or the name of the book and find it there, excellent, All right, Shane, Well thank you so much. It's it's been a real pleasure talking to you tonight. And uh, well next time you come on we'll have to take care of that lag so we don't have that anymore. But anyway, thanks, I really appreciate it. All right everyone, so hanging out yep, thank you? All right, all right everyone, So we'll be right back right after these messages. And for those of you watching it live live stream, Um, it's just music for three minutes. I'm back, yeah, look, yeah, really like the music. Yeah, that's Carrie Lloyd Wrighthouse White House in Ireland. He does music for movies so um, and he gave he does all the music for this for this show, so great guy. Um. But anyway, welcome Chris. We had a nice I had a nice visit with you, as always it was it was fun to see you out there in Sedona, one of one of the most beautiful places I think in the country. It's a beautiful area. So Chris, what are you up to these days? Um? I know you're good. Yeah, but can you talk a little bit about the film you're working on? Or is that is that something has to becoming quiet? I haven't signed anything, but yeah, let's put it this way. It gets uh. I've worked with Ron James on and off for almost twenty years. I met him here in Sidona, which is where I'm currently talking to you from. UM. I met him here back in two thousand and four when he volunteered to videotape a little mini conference I was having a featuring Barbara and Dennis Tedlock, who are eminent Mayan scholars, and Dennis was the one that actually did the English translation of the popal Voo. This is the only surviving book really about you know, from from the my world UM. And anyway, he said, look, if you let me, if you let me video take this, UM, you know, you can get copies from me to sell and and and then I can sell them too U. And so thus began the relationship. And h you know, back in twenty twelve, we did a documentary call that Could Happen Tomorrow, which was a compilation kind of a short piece based on a four DVD set that we did called The Disclosure Dialogues, and we think, you know, I said, hey, we should do a stand alone, you know, seventy five eighty minute piece that encompasses the whole thing, kind of a you know, the best of and it won EV Awards for Best Feature Film and the People's Choice Award. I was very proud of that, and he's he's he's a very good filmmaker. He's he's hasn't really done something on this level. This is going to be a major platform, uh project. Um, there's some you know, some a big name or two behind the um, you know, behind this whole thing, and h We're we're cranking along. You know. I've been working on the interviews and and sort of cataloging what people are saying and you know, dividing it up into categories and stuff. Sort of a preliminary you know, in general rough cut work, um that we're working on. So um, it's it's interesting getting back into this particular realm, which I haven't been in for sevent eight years. I've done you know, some little stuff. But and I was involved with James Fox's movie that final you know, four or five months was was was real difficult, and I'm I was very humbled that he asked me to come in and help him with that. And somebody joked and said, oh, you're working on another feature. What are you a director? Whisper Rick Rubin of the UFO Movie World. Yeah, you know, I do know where some of the bodies are buried, and you know, I've been taking notes, and you know, I'm I might know you know a good majority of the players, but most of them know me. So yeah, yeah, on some leveler another, we're you know, we're dealing with the topic here that is wide open. It's like the wild West and uphology, and you know, there's definitely a need for a kind of where are we now sort of approach to Uh no, I agree, I mean that that can kind of be our one of our topics tonight. Like things have really changed a lot in the last Actually, the last time you were on the show, I think you you were out to visit me. I believe maybe, or maybe it's been since then. No, I think we had one show and a couple of years ago. Yeah, but uh yeah, a lot has happened since the release of the permission for those New York Times articles to go out. Whatever machinations went on behind the scenes on that, and and of course they had to eat some crow because of the the erroneous attribution of a tep's responsibilities to ass up and you know, I mean there were some problems there, as there are with any program release of information. It's all part of obviously part of a um you know, of a program or the next generation going to the Cold Warrior. Uh, you know, Daddy's hey, you know, you've been retired now for twenty years, you know, with we'll take care of it from here, you know. And they know they've got to get ahead of the issue. God forbid, something happen somebody back engineers something or something that shows up unannounced and doesn't give them any opportunity to put a spin on it. I mean, they they realize that, you know, when you really think about it, there the governments of the world do not appear to be ready for you know, some arrival, let's say, or some discovery, uh an announcement about Antarctica or something on the back side of the moon. Um, you know, all these things are it's all coming to a head. So I think that the powers that they have a real understanding of their need to start to control the narrative a little and and you know, rebrand the whole thing so it's palatable to you know, to the surviving fifty you know baby boomer scientists and stuff and government people. U UAP. It sounds you know, it sounds very nebulous. There's no you know, it's a phenomena instead of an object, it's a phenomena. George Carlin would would be going nuts right now. Yeah, he was really good with I mean I could just see, but I could hear in my head his his his routine on this. And you know, I've been accused of being a bit droll and and dismissive and im mealy mouth and people and things and places and situations and um. But you know, I feel like I'm a trickster in this whole thing. And I really feel again that what a better time for this type of trickster ish atmosphere to be created? Uh? Then you know the years around Donald Trump, I mean there's there is there something in the air. Murder? What's going on here? Man? Are we? Uh? Yeah? See you mentioned that in the lights went out? See what happened? Hey, someone posted this question here? Are you familiar with the at the Edwards Cigar and Salto and Salida nine? Yeah? Is there a reason that did you do work on that or something? I've actually duplicated that exact effect that we saw, even though I was able to. I think I got twenty three witnesses that saw something that day. But then I've also been able to duplicate that just by accident. I saw a spider web, a long spider web that was slowly drifting in the breeze, backlit by the sun which was blocked by the roof edge of my house, just like the Edwards footage. And I filmed for It wasn't six minutes, granted, but I filmed for I don't know, thirty seconds and it looked exactly like Edwards thing, except mine was a little bit more in focus. Uh. You know, I think Tom King, one of the guys that filmed me the Phoenix lights incident down, you know, in Phoenix. I think he came up pretty soon after the Edwards footage, well maybe in ninety seven eight, and he said that that's what he thought it was, that it was a light prisoning through and refracting through a strand of spider web. And you know, I duplicated it. And you can go to my just Christopher O'Brien, Sam Louise Valley or UFO or whatever on YouTube and you can see I called it the Sedona IFO or something. Uh. But but I think, you know, I we need to be intellectually honest about this stuff, or do we really want to know what's going on or or or do you know, are we gonna do do diligence and really try to get to the bottom of these things and these incidents and you know, apply to scientific method. You know, I'm I'm just as willing to debunk a case or explain it away as I am to confirm it as being high strange. I mean, I would love that, but you know, we're talking what two percent three percent of cases, so you know we have to always So I'm just playing enthusiasm. Yeah, this is the clip of that. Oh, so it looks like so there was something off of the bridge or something up. Is that what you're saying on this particular Can you see it? I don't know. I can't see what you're doing. Oh, you can't see it. I'm playing the Edwards clip right now. I found that online. So I'm sorry you can't see that, but I'll stop the screen share. Yeah, no, it's it's gone. I took it out. I'm setting the wonder hold one. Oh, there we go. I've been in my setting screen the whole time. Sorry, I didn't grab my foot too if you want. Yeah, well it's kind of hard to do on the fly here, but anyway, Um, so you think that was basically did you say it was a spider web? Yeah, I'm pretty sure it was a long one. It was about thirty or forty feet It was a strand of spider web, Yeah, a real long one. And there was there was just a slight breeze. Uh, so it was it wasn't whipping around and then tearing you know into pieces. Yeah, get rid of your more videos. You know, there's a lot of things. Yeah, there's a lot of things I found. I found interview twenty three witnesses of this event, and what did the witnesses saying? Basically everybody said the same thing. It was like this uh, like candy cane looking thing in the sky that they could They could see red and green, you know, prisming back and forth. There was no rhyme or reason to it. You know, it sounded like random movement with like coming through statically through a prism, which is the type of effect that I was able to duplicate. Um, that's what it appeared uh to be. And these people are scattered over fifty square mile area, so it was definitely a big object and it was way up there. But why does it duplicate something that that that you could uh you could see you right there in your backyard that's only fifty feet from you or forty feet from you. You know. Uh, that's where this whole thing of consciousness and and and uh, you know, the it's the involvement of the observer. It's not so much what's being experienced. It's important. It's it's the person having the experience and why why that experience uh generate certain things within that individual. And this is you know, that subjective way more complicated than than you know, nuts and bolts craft lying around. Uh. You know, this is something that is infinitely uh talented in terms of unfolding their agenda effortlessly into what we think is our agenda. John Alexander came up with the idea of a sort of a presension or preconscious sentience that knows what you're going to do before you do it. And when you get into those kinds of realms where um, you know, what is caused, what is a fact or uh, it gets tricky, you know. And how does something like that, Chris work when there's like a lot of people seeing the same thing, you know, how does how does that work? That's a very good question I've had. I had the famous Stephen Greer event. Eighteen people were there, including the Greer and a dear, dear friend who is his managing director, the original man managing director for c said he was Sherry Adamac, a very close friend of mine, and they were in the grotto. It's a pot of falls, so say would side up in the song raise in San Louis Valley, and they they were surrounded by a golden light. And Stephen and Sherry had stayed back in the grotto. Everybody else was leaving, and so the people that were closest to them, yeah, they reported they saw a like a light come down on him. Nobody saw the alien ets that all different types that were talking to Stephen. Sherry didn't see that. She heard Stephen talk. She could see he was talking to something, but she didn't see what. You know, there was nothing there according to her. And then you know, the rest of the what nine ten people that I interviewed, um, you know, it went from the people close saying oh yeah, people were saying something's going on, but I was I wanted to get to the car to I don't believe that, you know, they came down all excited, and you know, there were you know, some real dubious ones at the some of the first to leave the grotto, let's put it that way. So you have an event that was seen by roughly eight or nine people and maybe ten and half of them support to a certain degree the primary witnesses count, but the other half are like, you know, something going on. You know, so witness testimony, as we know Martin is probably the least reliable, you know, give us some DNA or physical evidence anytime over people's recollections. However, I was able to interview everybody that weekend, I think was the day before that it had happened, So I got everybody fresh. I interviewed, I interviewed twelve of the eighteen um everybody separately, and something happened there, but nobody could really agree or come up with a consensus that that validates what Greer plims happened, which was the communication by the ETS that they were under attack in their alien spaceport quote unquote in Mount Blanca. And yeah, so it's a plastic example of you know, I guess it was an amazing Everybody came in the next day and they're like you won't believe what happened, you know, And I'm like, okay, let's take this one at the time. Line up, take a number. Someone sent me a clip the other day of Greer talking about going to planets. He saw he went to planets and wow. Um. But anyway, so just again watch where you get your information there. How much does he get to charge for that? Yeah, that's that's that's more money than being in the invisible UFO and getting the picture of that. Wow. He an eelong musk must be losing buddies. That's right. So here's a question for you. Here is the San Luis Valley prone to UFOs due underground water flow? I mean that's a hypothetical water flow? Is there like special waterflow? There is there like one of the largest layouts in the world. It's definitely the largest in North America. Release in the forty eight contiguously. Um. But water flow, Now, that's interesting because the water really doesn't flow, it's it It kind of slowly moves through. I'm sure. Um, the aquifer goes down tens of thousands of feet. It's like America's water tank. You go into a little town, you have the water tank with the name of the town on it. Yeah, but that's what the Saint Luis Valley is for North America. In fact, the amount of water that's there, it's properly treated, could supply you know, the Phoenichs, albert Querque, Mexico City, LA. You know, with the infrastructure, all the places that desperately need water. Yeah, exactly, the entire parts southwest. Now, that's that's going on the assumption that you can empty all that water out and then refill it, which was the Grand Canal scheme that was Morey Strong wanted to convert the tip of Hudson Bay into a freshwater uh you know, saltwater to a freshwater converter and then with the help of five nuclear reactors, divert five rivers down from Canada to go up to the San Louis Valley and refilled the aquifer and keep shooting it down stream out of the valley, but then recharging it from water that's naturally desalinated from Canada. Believe it or not, we had masks and engineering reports and stuff feasibility studies that we uncovered. Never nobody ever found out about the Grand Canal scheme. It would have dwarfed the Great Wall of China in terms of man's accomplishments on the face of the earth. You know, wow, speaking of technology, what about your Have you gone anywhere with your the unit there that you you created the UF No, I didn't create any units. Ronalds my engineer, uh and partner. He uh he's you know, he's a computer scientist. He's uh uh an inventor. He worked for Disney. He's had you know, smellly cool jobs. He's very very bright, very right. And he has designed a software system that allows a user with Molti up to six cameras or six sensors opticals, you know, one UM that coordinates the actions of all these different sensors. So you could have three optical cameras UM that are operating talking to each other over the Internet, and the software allows them to all focus there. You know, if something happens, if an event triggers UM, the software then goes into record mode and all the cameras will will take the coordinate data that's from GPS, from Google Earth, Google Maps, and it'll point the cameras at that particular event. They will then be able to you know, the closest camera Wills and men. Uh. You know, if you have a multi sensor data acquisition unity of MSDAU, then you can also turn on magnetometers, accelerometers, gravitometers to look for changes in the gravity, to look for changes in the in the magnetic field. Um, there's a a full band frequency spectrum analyzer on there too that's going to be sweeping through the frequencies to see what they can pick up. I mean, ultimately we want you know, active radar and and you know, really good super sophisticated PCM microphones to pick up extremely low frequencies acoostic frequencies. So you know, although we've got we've got customized systems that are available for like you know, the cost of off the shelf basically, and then we have the software that allows you to run all this stuff and have it all work together turnkeys so you don't have to do anything except review the files, review the folders, you know, and you can go in and play with it too. I mean, you can make the cameras do whatever you want. Uh, you know, and we have twelve, I think twelve systems now are out there. We're in i think four countries now. Eighteen different versions of the software or are out there, including the soft where that's helping Eric Barred up at the skin Walker Ranch. Coordination is various sensors and cameras. He's using the uh Ronalds software which is hargeting up where you have bounding boxes for things flying by, and you know it's it totally maps everything out and in in Google Maps, so you have a complete log of everything. Altitude as my direction speed, uh you know, just you name it. Wow. Um, So I just found a picture I took of you when we were in Phoenix holding one of these units and at the Congress, I think, so, yeah, we're have has anyone picked up anything with these yet? Well, we have in the San Luis Valley. Uh, there's you know, we've had some some pretty interesting things fly, but we haven't really had a chance to even think about getting anything analyzed. Were too busy, too busy. But just man, getting that second unit up in the valley has really become a real headache. As soon as people I think it's going to be something big and there's money, then you know there's shark. It's like blood in the water to sharks. Yeah, everybody gets all greedy and you know, I want to be up on a cell tower, Martin, I really do. And I'm not going to pay thirty six thousand a year to have a camera hanging on a cell tower, So you know, it's that's the kind of money. Yeah, there's there's been. There's been some interesting roadblocks that have have happened. The lady that was, you know, manning the bed and breakfast upon on whose roof we were, you know, we had our camera mounted um inexplicably, she picked up and left and just moved out to Portuga or Antigua or one of those you know, I think it was Tortuga. Wasn't an Antigua, I forget it was one of those two. All of a sudden she moves. I mean she was like this, wow, yeah, somebody must have died in the family or something, because she didn't tell you know, the Judy Messelina, you know, the owner of the UFO watchtower was her landlord, and she was running the bnbver. She didn't even tell her she was leaving, and of course the internet connection and the power you know, just ended up going off and it's like, uh, wow, the camera doesn't work anymore. So what do we do, you know, And I got to say when when I went out there earlier this year in September, Rex Bear from the Weak Project came through, you know as a night and shining armor. He really, he really did us a big favor. He helped he's been helping him just to be invaluable as someone on the ground there that is willing to, you know, to drive the miles and and help get this thing going. And we finally do have the camera back up. However, there's some weird you know, the driver that we were using and that's the only one that we can find that works has all of a sudden has bugs in it so that we cannot uh. I don't want to get into too many details, but it's just it's just some you know, niggling things that a guy with a master's and computer science is scratching his head, going, this is really so I think, yeah, you know, I mean, the mind wanders sometimes. It's just been so difficult to get this whole thing off the ground. Although we're having great success with people elsewhere, we haven't really done a sweep around yet. People are still getting their sea legs with this stuff. I mean, it's it's it's very sophisticated. You know, you need to there is a bit of a learning curve, like with any technology, but it's about as turnkey as you can make a package, you know, a sensor package like this. It's about as turnkey as you can make it. So we're there's no dummies are getting this gear. The people that are getting this gear on the ball. And well, it looks like something that would be expensive. I mean that's but it's not. No, no, not to start forwards a little as four hundred dollars for a single camera and the software all the way up to about five thousand to fifty two hundred, depending on whether you get the extra you know, powerful antennas, and you know there's there's add on things that that do put the cost up a little. But for five grand, you're going to get the you know, a turn key system that if you got a laptop computer, you're going to be able to have a triangulated optics um and the help of you know, the various sensors, the magatometer, gravitometer, accelerometers, radio frequency spectrum and lizers. You can even get a camera that has a blaze grating which allows you to take the light that you see at night from an object, and you can actually split the light beam into its spectra, so you can analyze exactly what's producing the light that you've seen because you're breaking it up into its constituent elements. And so we're you know, we have a lot of very high powered people that have been been helping us and giving us suggestions for design and implementation. And ron ols Is, you know, he's fabricating everything by hand. This is all based on an open source Raspberry Pie architecture. Anybody can take it and just have their way with it. I mean, there's no you know, there's nothing proprietary. The software, you know, he I think he did one hundred thousand lines of code and took seven years or something. The software, yeah, he should. He charges ninety dollars I think for the software, which is nothing for what you're getting. You're getting you're like rudimentary targeting software that you'd see with it with you know, the military. Yeah, and what's the sensor? So what about the thing that I thought of when I've looked at the sink was first of all, that you'd have to put it away from where someone would mess with it. And secondly, how does it power? How do you keep the power going on that thing? There's actually um two ways you can do it as a as a charge recharge. Uh you know with the solar panels you can do that. Um but oh, you know you need Internet. Okay, it's it's Internet and uh, you know, an AC power reliant. You know, there are ways to make it portable. You can integrate cell phones into it and hot spots and that sort of thing. But I think for the average person, unless you're on a rapid response team for the for the UFO Tracking Force or something, you know, you're not gonna who's going to have a satellite phone that's going to be able to hook up to the Internet. This thing is, you know, it's basically reliant, like I said, on the Internet and the availability of power. Now, the camera itself and the unit can be supplied power over a simple Ethernet connection which is also going to be taken the Internet signal and transceiving. So you can do a pop power arrangement so that the you know, don't forget these cameras have Erican auditioners and heaters in them. They can survive from one hundred and twenty degrees fahrenheit down to thirty Well we've had one thirty five below. So, um, these are very robust units. They have you know, they have sealed the environmental enclosures. Um, you know, all the everything is tight. It's got to be. It's pressure. You know, when you when you open the MSDAU, you can hear the negative pressure come out. It's a it's an airtight environment. And again, if you would mark this up the way it would be retail, it's a ten thousand dollars system basically, and you can get up for five which is our cost. I mean he makes ninety dollars on software and everything else is just drop shipped from the manufacturer except for the special brackets and things that he needs to make. But you know, and everything's customized to the to the user's location. You know, if you got a radio tower, we can help. You know, we've got the hardware to accommodate that particular installation. If you have just side of a house, if you have a pole, if you want it portable, we've got great tripods and real sturdy m you're not gonna get that good of gravity readings obviously. H In terms of a gravitometer you need a real stable platform for that to even hope to have anything scientifically viable. But you know, this is this is the next step forward in in euthology. I tell people please don't call me an uthologist, and they say, well, what do you mean you're doing all this stuff? And I said, look, I'm interested in a lot of things. The uthology is one of them, and if I was a ufologist, I'd be working on UPO DAP. It says, nobody else is. I guess I gotta do it, you know. So I'm so sad that we lost our our third partner, Wayne Hall. I'm deck he uh. He was the soul behind the whole effort. He really drove it through the lean years. He and I worked together on the UFO camera project for twelve years and then we we we met ron and uptailed our efforts for the last five years now, so this is like a sixteen year process. Yeah. Interesting, Well, thank you for all that. So that question that came up is the area I do want to talk about that area between Colorado and still Active as. Yeah, there's stuff going on all the time there. Um, it's just that for most people it's not that big of a deal, so because we're used to it, right. Yeah, It's like it's like being in New York City and almost seeing a bicycle messenger getting hit by a car. It's like, whoa, check that out. But you're not gonna you know, you're not gonna go home and go honey, honey, you wouldn't believe what I saw today. A bicycle messenger almost got hit by a bus. You know, you're not gonna do that. And if you see some silver things fly by in the valley, it's like, oh man, there goes one of those. You know, you know, that's that's why the whole database thing, And it doesn't work in areas that that are having a predominance of activity, hotspot areas that people become numb to it, they become a nerd to it to a certain degree. Obviously, will spectacular then are gonna you know, like all the stuff that was going on there in the nineties and the sixties and mid seventies, they were numerous numerous newspaper articles and magazine stories and regional coverage of the events that were going on there and elsewhere in the Rocky Mountains and especially color so and that you talked about Judy Messiline's UFO Watchtower. Is that is that in that area? Is that right there? People have asked me what do you think of the UFO Watchtower, and I said, well, it's not something that i'd build, but if I was going to build one, I would build it right there. She's got a front row seed to the hottest hot spot in North America. Do you know, yeah? Do you know if that people are spotting things from that tower? Yeah, she claims about three hundred people since she opened. I think it's it would be way more than that. Just on that road that goes, you know, north to south across her across her property. You know, it's the gun Barrel. It's sixty miles as straight as an arrow tyway seventeen on that stretch of road, going that sixty miles, I've got to have at least twenty five thirty sidings on my sideing log just just from people driving on that road. I personally have had half a dozen sidings because that's the only way to get to Creston if you're south and you know, on the east side of the valley, and you know, I was gigging. I was driving around all hours of the night, you know, coming home from gigs at two thirty three in the morning, and you know, it's just I broke down ones. Actually I had my one of the most riveting siding I've ever seen. Was when I was walking well below zero in these cowboy boots and wondering if I'm going to freeze to death, and I heard this crackling sound and I kind of felt a glow and I looked up and this green fireball, huge, bigger than a full moon, and it was at least fifteen miles away because it went all the way from south to north up the song grated crystals with a short little tail, and it lit up the mountains with this kind of sick greenish color, skimmed right over the mountaintops, and I you know, I'm looking at one hundred hundred miles that it traveled, and wow, not very fast. I mean it was doing maybe three four hundred miles an hour, maybe a little bit more. Let's relatively slow, yeah, yeah, but but lighting up the tops. You know, it's because the mountains had snow on them, and so the green was I mean, it was turning the mountain tops green as it went up. I mean that's it's kind of hard to argue with that. Yeah it had you put that would have caught the entire transit of that object, yeah, would it would have been captured on those cameras, right right. And green is one of the colors. You know, we talked earlier about orange, you know, the orange orbs if people are seeing and you know a lot of orange lights and stuff like that, but green is another one. You know. It's funny you don't hear in the Southwest. Yeah, yeah, I mean I was just on Chris Ledo's show and talked about a pilot that he was somewhere going a long haul in an f F sixteen I think it was years ago, and he said that a green orb followed him for like three hundred miles, you know, which is pretty amazing. Man. I love he would not be h He was a he was a deadheading captain on American Airlines and I couldn't get him to talk on my show. He said, nope. I said, all right, you won't be on video, and you can. You know, you don't have to say your name. I just want to hear you tell the story. He goes, Nope, I won't do it. He's just afraid of his job and unfortunately, well these guys, you know, it's all changing. Yeah, yeah, it doesn't have a stigma. Last three years of really really, I never thought i'd I knew i'd see it happen if I was lucky, but I never expected it, you know, you know, I was. I was hoped for it, but uh, and I kind of knew that i'd see it, but I Yeah, this newfound acceptance of the subject is is uh for a lot of I think a lot of people. I can I can say this for um, you know, there's a certain feeling of being redeemed a little bit and being uh, you know, validated because you know, euphological nerds are have never gotten any respect. Let me tell you when I was living in Manhattan for twelve and ten years, New York for twelve I can probably count the number of times I had a conversation about this stuff with a stranger. Yeah, probably on one hand. I can you know, of course, with my my buddies, they knew I was crazy. I was taking them on trips to try to see the Hudson Valley triangles and stuff. And I had friends that saw it and we were chasing around after every time we go out, it wouldn't be there. Next day, they'd be there. And I hated it and they hated it too because they would you know, I don't want to do that again. Man. We just sat around for three hours and nothing happened. It's like Christian you know, yeah, when you're in your early twenties, that's so that's yeah. Yeah. So I think it's funny. When I came here to the hotel, I said, uh, I said, how's your internet? Internet? And the girl at the front desk said, um, it's okay. I said, is there a place in the hotel that's better than another? And she goes, why do you need internet for any particular reason? I said, yeah, I'm doing a live show. She goes, oh, really, uh what are you doing a live show on? And and I wasn't embarrassed to say UFOs and she exactly, that's exactly. But I've been like, I've kept that quiet a lot in uh, you know, in my professional world and stuff like that, and um, but I'm not feeling that pressure like I did, So I think there is I think that kind of frees it up for It's like the water lifting all boats up as they say, you know exactly. I totally agree, Martin. I think it's it's it's actually good for because of the way it's unfolding, because you know, all of a sudden, we've had an extra bonus, and not many people are talking about this they or analyzing it. The fact that the reason why OSOP had to spin off into a TAP and why OSOP really didn't didn't it was just ill conceived, was because they got involved in in in you know, a tendant phenomena such as the presentient type phenomenons can walk a ranch that John Alexander likes to talk about, and in once you're starting to go from nuts and bolts craft violating our airspace in our national security issue to be people, you know, being injured by paranoimal stuff. I mean, there was a linking there early on with the you know, with the initial with the initial conversations and ideas that were shared with Harry Reid and Bigelow, at least based on what I can surmise um that they always were aware that there was something more going on and consciousness was playing a large part in this, and that's why Bigelow is so intrigued by this. He's very into into the idea of studying consciousness, and uh he's put his money where his mouth is too, more than anybody that I that I know of. Uh, you know, Lawrence Rockefeller put a lot of money into things too, but not like Robert Bigelow. He's a man on a mission and I respect that. But at the same time, you know, there's the way this whole thing's unfolding is is it's almost like it's been you know, sort of mapped out and preordained, you know, and I you know that make you feel Does that make you feel cautious? Though? I mean no, because ultimately it's a it's a it's a you know, it's a win win scenario for everybody. The only thing that I'm worried about is the negation of, you know, the rebranding of this whole mystery from from the ubiquitous UFOU to this amorphous you know, unidentified phenomena yeah, yeah, or phenomena yeah. Uh so yeah, I have a problem with that with that part of it. What they're doing is they're trying to wipe the slave clean that seventy you know, five plus year truth embargo. It's even uh that's it would say, or you know the U m J twelve or you know Specter or you know, you know what are some of the other bad guy organizations Doctor No, Yeah, uh so you know we're we're now we're getting onto you know, the kids of the Cold Warriors can and they realize that they can't. You know, they're not willing to hold the secret of their fathers and grandfathers. They're saying, hey, we got to figure out a way to let you know, people know what they want to know because this is not you know, this is going to break open somehow, something's going to happen. We're gonna be behind the eight ball. As you know, the government speaking, their job is control. If they're not in control, they're behind the eight ball, and they need to get ahead of the narrative and they need to start controlling the situation, which is invariably what they end up trying to do. So even though that's the case, this recent amendment, you know that Kirsten Gilberth amendment to the National Defense Authorization Bill, I'm really disappointed that the one thing I was most excited by, which was the inclusion of a civilian advisory body, and it was delineated out how that those individuals would be chosen, including I think two or three from the from SCU, the Scientific Coalition for We followed you whatever, Robert Powell's group, and they excised that from what I understand and from the language of the amendment. So, uh, you know, this is all going to be bureaucratically monitored and there's not going to be any sort of civilian oversight except for the committees that are going to be in charge of oversight. But in terms of the people without invested interests and whatever, you know, lobbyists aren't going to be coming to uh you know, some scientists from the University of Montana. Lobbyists are going to be coming to his door and making him a wealthy man. You know, the cookest way to become a millionaire in America is to be allowed to come. I mean, let's get real. Yeah, yeah, Well, the lines are open if he would like to call in. And that number three scared him all the way. Dude, seventy two, five, four eight three, Chris, You're always and um we have Oh jeez, I didn't realize this. We only have about four or four minutes left to the show. So I better take that back unless someone calls in right away. But I didn't realize, Wow, that that's gone really fast. So um, we should hope I always wore you. Oh not at all. No, No, it always goes fast when you're on and that's good. Um. So Uh. The thing that people know you from is you wrote the best book on cattle mutilations, which I think is fascinating. I know you've talked about it on my show a number of times Stalking the Herd. I have the book. It's huge. Is it like five hundred It feels like five hundred pages? Is it like three? How much? Like six hundred pages? It was actually nine hundred when I finished it, but you know, I took out all the I took out three hundred pages, which is going to be included in the follow up. Oh you're actually gonna do a follow up. I've been working on a six years with David Perkins. Oh wow, we're hoping to get it out by Christmas twenty twenty two. So yeah. Well, it's it's funny. You know. I was listening somewhere and someone said something like there is a UFO connection, and then there someone said there's some military connection. Um, could it be all of the above or not. Yeah, just like UFOs. UFOs could be ets, they could be us coming back from the future. They could be ultra terrestrials that they've you know, in the Marianna's Trench, you know, at the deepest point on the planet. Or they could be living in the mantle and some sort of aquatic environment there. Or they could they could be atmospheric beings, creatures that can flit in and out with our environment. There's a ton of closed system UM explanations that I've I've always been fascinated by um surviving technology from Antideluvian civilizations. I mean, we don't know we have as much evidence for any of those as we do for all the others. So I agree, And you know that's what that's one of the reasons that I keep doing. I love this subject. It's because of all the ideas of what they come you know, I mean too. Yeah, It's feats your brain fresh, you know, it makes you think. It's it's like, you know, it's a huge puzzle. And if you're good at puzzles, this is a good one. And if you're really good at puzzles, come see me, because I need some help with the with the with the cows. Yeah, so in the follow up book, are you so you're obviously working on recent cases to them? Right. The following book is called Mute Speak actually is a working title. I'm co authoring it with David Perkins, my my mentor. And uh, it's basically an analysis. It's it's an oral analysis of stalking the herd. I see, we only got we have less than a minute here, so but I wanted to thank you so much, and I just wanted to tell you that I got contacted from someone at Canada that told me they had a horse mutilation like forty years ago. That was really bizarre. So that's somewhere in Canada, Toronto area. But anyway, we like to know more about that. All right, give me a text, all right, Chris, talk to you, all right, Right, to talk to you, Chris. Anybody all right, take care? All right, everyone's so next week we will be back. Um. As I mentioned with John dover a A Navajo Rangers should be a great show, interesting show next week. Thank you so much everyone, and remember to keep your eyes to the sky.