1 00:00:01,040 --> 00:00:09,640 Understand the thinking atheist. It's not a person, it's a symbol, an 2 00:00:09,640 --> 00:00:14,720 idea. The population of atheists this country is going through the rule, rejecting 3 00:00:14,800 --> 00:00:19,879 faith, pursuing knowledge, challenging the sacred. If I tell the truth, 4 00:00:20,000 --> 00:00:23,960 it's because I tell the truth, not because I put my hand on a 5 00:00:24,000 --> 00:00:29,320 book and made a wish and working together for a more rational world. Take 6 00:00:29,399 --> 00:00:33,640 the risk of thinking. Feel so much more happiness. Truth Usian wisdom will 7 00:00:33,640 --> 00:00:41,320 come to you that way. Assume nothing, question everything, and start thinking. 8 00:00:42,600 --> 00:00:57,520 This is the Thinking Atheist podcast, hosted by Seth Andrews. Today's podcast 9 00:00:58,079 --> 00:01:03,520 is extra all right, It's a bonus. It is not part of the 10 00:01:03,600 --> 00:01:07,239 regular lineup. This is just something you can take or leave, okay, 11 00:01:07,319 --> 00:01:11,719 a diversion. And the reason I'm throwing it out there right off the bat 12 00:01:11,799 --> 00:01:17,719 is because I'm trying to prevent indignant emails from people saying, well, I 13 00:01:17,760 --> 00:01:22,400 didn't tune into the show to listen to this, You'd be amazed at the 14 00:01:22,480 --> 00:01:26,439 shit that arrives in my inbox. I expect more from this channel, Seth, 15 00:01:30,319 --> 00:01:34,920 you do, okay, you know I'll get I'll alert the media, 16 00:01:34,439 --> 00:01:38,799 and I'm not trying to be dismissive to people who tune into the channel for 17 00:01:40,000 --> 00:01:42,760 specific things. You know, I get it, you are here for a 18 00:01:42,959 --> 00:01:48,079 reason, but I would like to think you don't mind the occasional distraction. 19 00:01:48,519 --> 00:01:53,000 I've been doing this for fifteen years, and I know that I will possibly 20 00:01:53,079 --> 00:01:57,280 be doing it for fifteen more. And because we have new people cycling into 21 00:01:57,319 --> 00:02:04,959 these discussions, he will continue to debunk the Book of Genesis and Noah's floods, 22 00:02:05,439 --> 00:02:08,560 Old Testament prophecy, in the Birth, Life and Death of Jesus, 23 00:02:08,639 --> 00:02:14,759 the Book of Revelation. We're going to talk about other religions, Islam, 24 00:02:15,439 --> 00:02:20,280 Jehovah's witnesses, Mormonism, scientology, other cults. We'll talk about the stuff 25 00:02:20,319 --> 00:02:23,919 we need to talk about. But I need a break today. I'm taking 26 00:02:23,960 --> 00:02:27,719 a break, Okay. One of the reasons that I started the True Stories 27 00:02:28,000 --> 00:02:32,759 podcast just something to help me keep this fresh. Well, I thought maybe 28 00:02:32,840 --> 00:02:38,759 you would enjoy this conversation. I'll set it up for you. Mark Shostrom 29 00:02:39,319 --> 00:02:45,439 is a longtime special effects artist. I have been aware of him because I'm 30 00:02:45,479 --> 00:02:50,120 kind of an eighties and nineties horror movie and sci fi geek, so I 31 00:02:50,240 --> 00:02:53,000 was aware that Mark was one of the guys behind the scenes bringing many of 32 00:02:53,000 --> 00:02:57,599 my favorite films to life, and on a lark, I just sort of 33 00:02:57,639 --> 00:03:00,199 reached out, Hey, Mark love your work. Would you like to ever 34 00:03:00,439 --> 00:03:06,560 just have a chat? Would you want to talk about forty plus years in 35 00:03:06,599 --> 00:03:10,680 the special effects and makeup business, because man, I would love to pick 36 00:03:10,759 --> 00:03:17,960 your brain and lo and behold. He responded. We exchanged messages and it 37 00:03:19,080 --> 00:03:24,680 was awesome and he was totally game. And the YouTube link to watch our 38 00:03:24,840 --> 00:03:30,759 discussion is in the description box, So if you're going to listen to the 39 00:03:30,800 --> 00:03:35,599 podcast version here, that's terrific. But in the YouTube version, I was 40 00:03:35,639 --> 00:03:38,120 able to add a whole lot of visuals. So when he's talking about specific 41 00:03:38,199 --> 00:03:43,719 films or certain effects or whatever, I'm able to go and actually show those 42 00:03:43,840 --> 00:03:46,759 on the screen, kind of a one two punch audio and video. You 43 00:03:47,199 --> 00:03:53,319 pick and if this is not your cup of tea, I totally understand, 44 00:03:53,400 --> 00:03:57,319 and with my thanks, I will see you next week. Big hug, 45 00:03:57,560 --> 00:04:00,680 go in peace. May the Lord bless you and keep you. So have 46 00:04:00,800 --> 00:04:04,199 I made myself totally clear? Extra all right, I'm done. I'm done 47 00:04:04,240 --> 00:04:18,240 setting it up. Mark Showstrom has like forty years in the special effects make 48 00:04:18,360 --> 00:04:23,720 up business. For film and television. On his resume, you know the 49 00:04:23,759 --> 00:04:29,319 films Nightmare on Elm Street, several movies in that series, Phantasm two from 50 00:04:29,399 --> 00:04:33,800 Beyond, He worked on the X Files. His Instagram bio calls him the 51 00:04:34,000 --> 00:04:43,759 Julia Child of makeup effects and screenwriter of Horror with hearts. Mark Showstrom, 52 00:04:43,839 --> 00:04:46,439 Thanks for coming, man, It's great to talk to you. Good to 53 00:04:46,439 --> 00:04:48,879 see you. Thanks for having me. Why the chef Julia Child? Is 54 00:04:48,879 --> 00:04:53,319 it? Because you're always kind of cooking stuff up back in your lair. 55 00:04:53,920 --> 00:04:59,079 Now, that's actually a strange story. One of my favorite nicknames. In 56 00:04:59,120 --> 00:05:00,639 the eighties, when I was doing Phantasm Too, I had to do a 57 00:05:00,680 --> 00:05:06,720 lot of makeup effects on Angus scrim and he's melting in his whole stage of 58 00:05:08,000 --> 00:05:13,360 makeups, and I would incorporate in addition to the foam, rubber, prosthetics 59 00:05:13,360 --> 00:05:18,120 and the makeup, I would incorporate certain food products like yellow tinted yogurt, 60 00:05:18,439 --> 00:05:24,399 a little yellow tinted milk, some gelatine, and when his neck is tearing 61 00:05:24,439 --> 00:05:28,279 open, I used actually chicken skin which I super glued to the rubber. 62 00:05:29,079 --> 00:05:30,199 So as I'm putting all this stuff on him, me, you know, 63 00:05:30,480 --> 00:05:33,399 we talk and you know, what's that you're doing now is oh, it's 64 00:05:33,519 --> 00:05:36,720 gelatine. And what's that you're doing now? It's yogurt, it's chicken skin. 65 00:05:38,480 --> 00:05:43,040 And he paused and he goes, Mark, You're like the Julia child 66 00:05:43,079 --> 00:05:47,399 of makeup effects. And so it's stuck. And I love that nickname. 67 00:05:48,120 --> 00:05:54,000 Phantasm marked me. You know, I think we all, especially being a 68 00:05:54,079 --> 00:05:58,519 child of the eighties and this was like late seventies. But I remember I 69 00:05:58,639 --> 00:06:02,040 wasn't supposed to. I wasn't old enough to see phantasm, and somehow Phantasm 70 00:06:02,160 --> 00:06:05,279 was on. I was watching unsupervised, and I felt like a grown up, 71 00:06:05,319 --> 00:06:11,360 you know. But Angus s grim As the Tall Man marked me. 72 00:06:11,560 --> 00:06:14,439 You probably hear that story a lot, like, oh my god, the 73 00:06:14,480 --> 00:06:16,639 first time I saw that guy, he was in my dreams. Right, 74 00:06:17,879 --> 00:06:23,759 actually saw the film in nineteen eighty, the first one. I don't remember 75 00:06:23,800 --> 00:06:26,839 if it was in a theater it might have been, but yeah, I 76 00:06:26,879 --> 00:06:30,399 thought it was like a really odd and original and slightly twisted, and never 77 00:06:30,439 --> 00:06:33,720 gave it another thought after that that I'd be working on the sequel or two 78 00:06:33,759 --> 00:06:40,000 sequels. Actually, I've heard that Angus scrim Is like was like the nicest 79 00:06:40,040 --> 00:06:43,639 guy I guess as soon as the camera turned off and he wasn't looming and 80 00:06:43,680 --> 00:06:47,399 bringing down other worldly death, he was like this genteel, old soul. 81 00:06:47,600 --> 00:06:50,879 Right, It's just the sweetest man you could ever hope to work with. 82 00:06:51,040 --> 00:06:55,360 I loved working with him. When he showed up at my workshop the first 83 00:06:55,439 --> 00:07:00,439 time he brought his dog cap. He asked permission, it'd be all right 84 00:07:00,480 --> 00:07:04,879 if I bring my dog cap inside? Of course. Yeah, he's a 85 00:07:05,079 --> 00:07:12,079 real sweet guy, complete opposite of what he portrays in movies. In the 86 00:07:12,120 --> 00:07:15,480 films, the Phantasm series, they are I think known, if arguably for 87 00:07:15,560 --> 00:07:19,959 two things, The Tall Man and the Sphere, right, the silver blind 88 00:07:20,079 --> 00:07:24,600 Ball of Death. Did you work on the Sphere? Were you involved with 89 00:07:24,600 --> 00:07:28,800 that at all? No? But a couple of stories about that is. 90 00:07:29,319 --> 00:07:30,959 One day I was curious, I'm working on the prep for the movie and 91 00:07:31,000 --> 00:07:33,439 Don and I were having a meeting about something. I said, Hey, 92 00:07:33,480 --> 00:07:36,560 there's something I'll always wanted to ask you, and how did you come up 93 00:07:36,560 --> 00:07:40,480 with the idea for the spheres? And he told me he saw it in 94 00:07:40,519 --> 00:07:44,959 a dream and he threw it into the movie. But as far as the 95 00:07:45,000 --> 00:07:48,680 spheres, when I met with Don on Phantasm, iiO The project was very 96 00:07:48,720 --> 00:07:53,680 secretive. It had a couple of different titles. It was Morningside, then 97 00:07:53,720 --> 00:07:59,279 it was American Gothic and he hired me. And even before I started prep, 98 00:07:59,319 --> 00:08:03,040 He's said he needed somebody to do the silver sphere effects, and I 99 00:08:03,160 --> 00:08:07,680 recommended my friend Steve Patino, And I called Steve that night and I said, 100 00:08:07,680 --> 00:08:09,920 Hey, I'm doing this movie, so people are going to call you. 101 00:08:11,439 --> 00:08:13,639 I can't tell you what it is, but you want to do this 102 00:08:13,079 --> 00:08:18,879 and what is it? It's called American Gothic or whatever, and he's an 103 00:08:18,879 --> 00:08:22,959 American what. Yes, Steve Patino was an effects guy who was specialized in 104 00:08:24,319 --> 00:08:31,240 fiberglass molds and he was really good at the mechanical and anything involving mechanics and 105 00:08:31,319 --> 00:08:33,360 plastics and things like that, and I knew he'd be the guy for it. 106 00:08:35,080 --> 00:08:37,639 What do you do in for Phantasm? Were you doing life casts? 107 00:08:37,960 --> 00:08:41,279 You know, I don't know if it's late tex. You tell me what 108 00:08:41,320 --> 00:08:46,240 the terminology is. What were you making? Everything involving makeup effects on the 109 00:08:46,279 --> 00:08:50,720 actors? And that, of course began with life casting, which is putting 110 00:08:50,759 --> 00:08:54,840 in material called alginate on the face to get an impression of the face. 111 00:08:54,879 --> 00:08:58,240 Then you pour a replican plaster. With the case of Angus, I had 112 00:08:58,240 --> 00:09:07,320 to do his hands, faces, expressions, and I kind of worked my 113 00:09:07,440 --> 00:09:11,000 way into it with him. In other words, I started with his hands 114 00:09:11,000 --> 00:09:13,879 and we put him on a table so he could watch this and see the 115 00:09:13,879 --> 00:09:16,200 material, how the material worked and what we did. Then we did a 116 00:09:16,240 --> 00:09:22,240 relaxed normal face so I could use that to sculpt prosthetics, and then we 117 00:09:22,279 --> 00:09:26,440 eased him into the expressions, which means basically, you've got a material. 118 00:09:26,480 --> 00:09:30,519 It's got like a seven minute setting time, and at the six minute mark, 119 00:09:31,360 --> 00:09:33,440 somebody calls it out and I say, Angus, hold the expression. 120 00:09:33,519 --> 00:09:39,120 He'd hold a scream for like a minute, and then the material sets. 121 00:09:39,879 --> 00:09:43,720 So that was the life cashing. That's just the first, you know week, 122 00:09:43,039 --> 00:09:46,279 and then there's all the sculpting and the making of the prosthetics, the 123 00:09:46,360 --> 00:09:52,000 fake heads, the monsters, putting the mechanics in it, painting everything, 124 00:09:52,759 --> 00:09:54,879 and of course going to set and doing the application. So it's the whole 125 00:09:54,879 --> 00:10:00,360 thing pested with don post production like months later. You know, I thought 126 00:10:00,399 --> 00:10:03,360 of a new idea. Okay, so somebody's in the you know, they're 127 00:10:03,399 --> 00:10:07,080 under the plaster. I don't know what if it's actual plaster, but I 128 00:10:07,120 --> 00:10:11,320 think it's it's leg it's a soft material that dentis used to cast your teeth. 129 00:10:11,639 --> 00:10:15,120 Okay, all right, so someone's under it, I'm guessing the eyes 130 00:10:15,120 --> 00:10:18,480 are closed, they've got the tubes coming out of the nostrils. They're encased, 131 00:10:18,679 --> 00:10:22,519 no tubes, the tubes kind of out of the nostrils. I don't 132 00:10:22,559 --> 00:10:26,879 know where people get that and make that mistake all the time. They used 133 00:10:26,919 --> 00:10:30,399 to do that in the nineteen thirties and forties, where they literally would put 134 00:10:30,559 --> 00:10:35,240 straws in your nose and use actual plaster right on the face. But with 135 00:10:35,360 --> 00:10:39,440 modern materials, starting in the seventies and eighties, we switch to algenate, 136 00:10:39,440 --> 00:10:43,519 which is a soft material that it mixes up. It looks like pancake batter. 137 00:10:43,519 --> 00:10:46,840 It's kind of thick, and that goes on the face and it's cold, 138 00:10:48,519 --> 00:10:52,159 and then it warms up and solidifies into a kind of a rubbie jel. 139 00:10:52,320 --> 00:10:56,879 But because it's floppy when it's solid, if you pull it off, 140 00:10:56,879 --> 00:11:00,399 it'll lose its shape. So you have to have when the alga is set 141 00:11:00,440 --> 00:11:03,519 on the face, you have to back it up with plaster bandages like a 142 00:11:03,600 --> 00:11:09,879 doctor would use for making an arm cast the outer plasters. Where people see 143 00:11:09,840 --> 00:11:13,759 the pictures of people underneath, they think they've been plastered. Well, no, 144 00:11:13,840 --> 00:11:18,480 they actually don't have plaster touching their skin. The whole thing, the 145 00:11:18,559 --> 00:11:22,879 alginate and the bandages, comes off at one go, and then you pour 146 00:11:22,240 --> 00:11:26,120 another type of plaster into that to get the replica of the face. So 147 00:11:26,159 --> 00:11:31,440 the eyes are closed. There's no straws. What you do is you put 148 00:11:31,480 --> 00:11:35,200 the material carefully around the nose and you make a mixture so that you know 149 00:11:35,240 --> 00:11:39,399 it's not going to drip into the nose. And you have several people working 150 00:11:39,399 --> 00:11:43,159 at the same time, and whoever's doing the face in the nose area. 151 00:11:43,759 --> 00:11:46,720 As soon as that nose area in the mouth are covered, one person stays 152 00:11:46,799 --> 00:11:50,679 on that area. Usually it would be me, and you talk to the 153 00:11:50,679 --> 00:11:54,440 person underneath. They can hear you. You're doing fine, your breathing holes 154 00:11:54,440 --> 00:11:58,399 are open. How you doing. We have hand signals, you know, 155 00:11:58,600 --> 00:12:01,960 pat on the shoulder. This means I'm doing great, and this means take 156 00:12:01,000 --> 00:12:07,000 it the fuck off me. You never get that nobody's ever freaked out on 157 00:12:07,080 --> 00:12:09,080 you. I mean, you've been there and they're like, oh my god, 158 00:12:09,159 --> 00:12:13,360 you're hot. I'm claustrophobic. Now. I've done in my makeup career. 159 00:12:13,440 --> 00:12:18,879 I did a six year old girl once for Elm Street three, and 160 00:12:18,919 --> 00:12:22,360 for Phantasm, I did an eighty five year old woman. Everybody's been cool 161 00:12:22,440 --> 00:12:26,279 across the board, but there was one guy in Dick Tracy, who was 162 00:12:26,279 --> 00:12:31,360 a stunt man. We had to make a life mask and he was underneath 163 00:12:31,360 --> 00:12:35,159 it. I don't remember his name, but he's got the stuff on him 164 00:12:35,399 --> 00:12:39,279 and I said, how are you doing? And he's like he was literally 165 00:12:39,320 --> 00:12:46,919 shaking because he was not in control. This guy would jump off buildings, 166 00:12:46,960 --> 00:12:50,279 he would set himself on fire, and he was in control. But as 167 00:12:50,320 --> 00:12:54,240 soon as he was encased, we were in control. And that was it. 168 00:12:54,279 --> 00:12:58,279 Really, he was actually physically shaking. I'll never forget that. So 169 00:12:58,320 --> 00:13:05,120 that was the only almost freak out I ever saw. Did you tell me 170 00:13:05,639 --> 00:13:09,440 we were talking before we actually set up the interview that your first life cast 171 00:13:09,559 --> 00:13:15,519 or one of them, was your girlfriend? Is that right? Let's see, 172 00:13:16,120 --> 00:13:18,960 yeah it must have been. Yeah, who else? Who? What 173 00:13:18,120 --> 00:13:20,399 better guinea pig? You know? You know, well, what's the story 174 00:13:20,440 --> 00:13:22,480 on that? I mean you're like, hey, honey, I need to 175 00:13:22,519 --> 00:13:28,200 practice or what's it an actual gig or what. Actually The first life cast 176 00:13:28,279 --> 00:13:31,759 I did was my mother in nineteen seventy six, but I didn't know how 177 00:13:31,799 --> 00:13:37,240 to do it. I was going by this makeup book by some guy who 178 00:13:37,279 --> 00:13:39,559 didn't know what he was doing. He had these Basically, when you mix 179 00:13:39,639 --> 00:13:43,639 the algenate you put on the face or the head or whatever, you mix 180 00:13:45,519 --> 00:13:48,679 a huge batch or several kind of staggered batches, so it essentially all goes 181 00:13:48,679 --> 00:13:54,399 on at once. And this guy in the book said, well, you 182 00:13:54,159 --> 00:13:58,840 mix six little batches, these tiny little spoonfuls, and then you mix your 183 00:14:00,240 --> 00:14:01,759 into that you put it on, then you mix your other one. It 184 00:14:01,799 --> 00:14:07,679 was completely screwed up. But I'm my poor mother's lying down on a couch 185 00:14:07,519 --> 00:14:13,360 with a I guess I had a plastic garbage bag on her hair, and 186 00:14:13,440 --> 00:14:16,159 I've got this book open, and I've got all the little things laid out, 187 00:14:16,720 --> 00:14:22,159 and it was excruciating for her because I'd put it on and cover part 188 00:14:22,240 --> 00:14:24,799 of her and then I'd have to like turn the page of the book and 189 00:14:24,799 --> 00:14:30,519 mix the other stuff. And she did not enjoy the process too much at 190 00:14:30,559 --> 00:14:35,200 all. So when I came to California years later, I finally started to 191 00:14:35,559 --> 00:14:39,679 meet people in the business, learned how you really do it, and the 192 00:14:39,720 --> 00:14:43,759 materials had improved a bit by then, so my girlfriend became number two as 193 00:14:43,759 --> 00:14:46,080 far as figuring out how to do it, and I did it all at 194 00:14:46,120 --> 00:14:50,279 once. It was really careful, and I said, you can't move, 195 00:14:50,399 --> 00:14:54,399 you know, don't jump up, and don't run across the room. And 196 00:14:54,440 --> 00:14:58,039 it came out beautifully and it actually got me my first job. The resulting 197 00:14:58,120 --> 00:15:03,360 life cast looks so pristine that it got me a job on a movie. 198 00:15:03,039 --> 00:15:07,720 What was the job. It was an a fi film called Violet, which 199 00:15:07,799 --> 00:15:13,320 was my first movie job, and I didn't have much of a portfolio. 200 00:15:13,480 --> 00:15:16,360 There was a few makeups on myself, and when I went in for the 201 00:15:16,399 --> 00:15:20,080 interview, I thought, as an afterthought, I think, let me just 202 00:15:20,080 --> 00:15:24,440 bring along the life cast to my girlfriend. And I brought that along like 203 00:15:24,519 --> 00:15:28,639 an idiot. But the producer looked at it and he was very impressed, 204 00:15:28,720 --> 00:15:31,759 and he later told me, you know, the makeup in my portfolio wasn't, 205 00:15:31,919 --> 00:15:37,039 you know, superlative or anything. But he looked at the life master 206 00:15:37,080 --> 00:15:39,279 and he thought, of somebody can do that. They can do the scar 207 00:15:39,440 --> 00:15:43,639 for this movie. So he hired me. So I've got to ask the 208 00:15:43,679 --> 00:15:48,799 college term paper question Mark. But you know, I had the opportunity to 209 00:15:48,840 --> 00:15:54,320 meet Tom Savini down at a horror convention in Texas, you know, and 210 00:15:52,840 --> 00:15:56,759 I'm fanboying, And you know what was your inspiration? Man? You know? 211 00:15:58,759 --> 00:16:02,440 You know with Sabini, I think he talked about Lon Cheney and you 212 00:16:02,480 --> 00:16:04,320 know, the Man of a Thousand Faces, a fan of the Hunchback. 213 00:16:04,399 --> 00:16:10,120 He got Jack Pierce in his work on Frankenstein, John Chambers, Planet of 214 00:16:10,159 --> 00:16:12,320 the Apes. So if I ask you, well, Mark Shostrom, who 215 00:16:12,440 --> 00:16:18,080 was your inspiration to get into the makeup biz? All of the above? 216 00:16:18,360 --> 00:16:22,559 I mean when I was a little kid, you know, I watched Frankenstein 217 00:16:22,679 --> 00:16:26,720 and I had never seen a Lawn Cheney movie, but I read Famous Monsters 218 00:16:26,759 --> 00:16:30,440 starting in nineteen sixty four or sixty years ago, and i'd you know, 219 00:16:30,480 --> 00:16:37,159 they would show pictures of Jack Pearce and Lawn Cheney doing the makeup, and 220 00:16:37,519 --> 00:16:41,960 yeah, all those guys were inspirations. And John Chambers was It was huge 221 00:16:41,960 --> 00:16:48,120 in Dick Smith. Of course. John Chambers was the only sort of contact 222 00:16:48,159 --> 00:16:52,919 I had when I moved to la because I'd corresponded with him in a few 223 00:16:53,000 --> 00:16:57,840 letters back in nineteen seventy six, seventy seven, and he wrote me back, 224 00:16:57,879 --> 00:17:02,000 handwritten letters, which I still have. And when I moved to la 225 00:17:02,080 --> 00:17:04,559 I didn't know anybody in the film business, but I had his phone number 226 00:17:06,480 --> 00:17:08,880 and I called him up and I said, Hey, I'm the guy that 227 00:17:08,960 --> 00:17:11,839 used to write you back in Washington, Duc do you remember, yeah, 228 00:17:11,880 --> 00:17:18,039 come on over. So yeah, all inspirational and seeing Dick Smith's work in 229 00:17:19,160 --> 00:17:23,359 the Exorcist and Little Big Man. I remember seeing a Little Big Man in 230 00:17:23,440 --> 00:17:26,599 nineteen seventy and when I was living in Hong Kong, and you know, 231 00:17:26,599 --> 00:17:30,440 it blew me away. You kind of mentioned the guy who's working at that 232 00:17:30,559 --> 00:17:33,640 level and he's answering his own mail. I mean, he's like, oh, 233 00:17:33,680 --> 00:17:36,920 look, here's a letter from my fame. With the same with Dick 234 00:17:36,960 --> 00:17:41,039 Smith. You write him a letter, he writes you back. In Dick's 235 00:17:41,079 --> 00:17:45,160 case, he typed them, but John Chambers hand wrote his and his writing 236 00:17:45,279 --> 00:17:48,000 was really I can't read this, you know, looking at with the magnifying 237 00:17:48,000 --> 00:17:52,319 glass. Oh you know. With Dick. You know, I've got a 238 00:17:52,319 --> 00:17:56,000 whole collection. I must have probably ten ten or twelve letters and a couple 239 00:17:56,000 --> 00:18:00,960 of postcards from Dick. Real keepers like he said me one on Amadeas Stationery, 240 00:18:02,079 --> 00:18:04,839 which is really cool. But yeah, Dick will write back everybody, 241 00:18:04,880 --> 00:18:10,079 and same with phone calls. I mean he did say he will. He 242 00:18:10,119 --> 00:18:14,160 did. That's why he's a legend, is he was so generous with helping 243 00:18:14,240 --> 00:18:18,960 so many people. Kind of Roger Corman esque. You know. Corman would 244 00:18:18,960 --> 00:18:21,680 take a lot of people in. Give him a shot. You know, 245 00:18:21,799 --> 00:18:23,119 you just bring him in. Now, you work cheap, you work fast, 246 00:18:23,480 --> 00:18:26,799 all right, Well here you know, here's something to work on. 247 00:18:26,160 --> 00:18:29,119 Yeah, edit this film, maybe should do. All right, I'll let 248 00:18:29,200 --> 00:18:32,559 you direct my next, you know, space picture or whatever. Little names 249 00:18:32,640 --> 00:18:34,640 like James Cameron, you know that kind of thing. You know. I 250 00:18:34,640 --> 00:18:40,440 think James Cameron sculpted the ship with the breasts on it from Battle Beyond the 251 00:18:40,440 --> 00:18:44,759 Stars. Yeah, yes, and now I mean direct. Of course he 252 00:18:44,799 --> 00:18:48,519 directed Piranha two, which is a classic. But you know, of course 253 00:18:48,559 --> 00:18:51,799 now he's he's James Cameron. But I love to hear you. Remember I 254 00:18:51,799 --> 00:18:57,920 was working on two three Corman pictures in like eighty two, Forbidden World and 255 00:18:57,920 --> 00:19:03,920 Android. And to get from the makeup effects lab to the bathroom and the 256 00:19:03,960 --> 00:19:11,039 other building, you had to walk through this sound stage and the Skotech brothers 257 00:19:11,119 --> 00:19:15,279 and Jim Cameron, I think, had built the whole Manhattan replica for Escape 258 00:19:15,279 --> 00:19:18,599 from New York. It was on the floor, so he literally'd walk in 259 00:19:18,680 --> 00:19:22,160 this door, you'd step over Manhattan to get to the bathroom. But I 260 00:19:22,160 --> 00:19:29,440 remember seeing Jim Cameron there a couple times and working on Android. Back to 261 00:19:29,480 --> 00:19:33,839 Tom Savini, he was talking about like he worked on Romero's Dawn of the 262 00:19:33,880 --> 00:19:40,200 Dead nineteen seventy eight, I think yeah, And he was talking about how 263 00:19:40,240 --> 00:19:44,319 much he hated the blood he got a zombie film his blood, I mean 264 00:19:44,680 --> 00:19:48,480 gallons of blood, but it looked like sort of that apple red colored house 265 00:19:48,559 --> 00:19:52,359 paint, and I guess he hated it, but Romero liked it. So 266 00:19:52,400 --> 00:19:56,519 Mark, you tell me, like, what's good blood? Like if you're 267 00:19:56,559 --> 00:20:00,960 making blood that blood in Day of the Dead, Donald Dead, Donald the 268 00:20:02,000 --> 00:20:06,880 Dead nineteen seventy eight. I remember reading an interview with Tom Savinia about it 269 00:20:06,880 --> 00:20:12,039 and he said it was next tell any XTL simulated blood made by three M 270 00:20:14,160 --> 00:20:17,799 three M in Minnesota. And I had read an article about that while I 271 00:20:17,839 --> 00:20:22,240 was living in Hong Kong in the seventies. It said this magic blood that 272 00:20:22,279 --> 00:20:26,799 doesn't stay costumes is going to change Hollywood, which is the one that Tom 273 00:20:26,880 --> 00:20:32,119 used on Donald the Dead. So in nineteen eighty when I first moved here, 274 00:20:32,960 --> 00:20:37,839 I ordered a bottle of it and it was like this orange red opaque 275 00:20:37,920 --> 00:20:41,559 house paint. Yeah. Yeah, it didn't come out of it, didn't 276 00:20:41,599 --> 00:20:45,400 stain clothing, but it didn't look like blood. So at the time, 277 00:20:45,599 --> 00:20:51,759 myself and many others were using ben Nye Makeup company made of blood for stage, 278 00:20:51,759 --> 00:20:55,720 which is a bit purple. A couple of companies made blood. Max 279 00:20:55,839 --> 00:21:00,880 Factor had a great technicolor blood, but that was discontinued and that was only 280 00:21:00,920 --> 00:21:04,599 for a technicolor film. So I would make mine out of corn syrup and 281 00:21:06,279 --> 00:21:11,240 you know, watercolor or whatever. Didn't know what to use until I got 282 00:21:11,279 --> 00:21:17,400 hold of Dick Smith's blood formula on nineteen eighty one. And Dick had developed 283 00:21:17,400 --> 00:21:22,640 a blood formula for Midnight Cowboy. It was its first time use and that's 284 00:21:22,640 --> 00:21:26,440 the same blood he used later in The Exorcist Taxi Driver all the way through 285 00:21:26,519 --> 00:21:30,559 the Hunger, and that was the blood that was adopted by everyone. Rick 286 00:21:30,599 --> 00:21:34,160 Baker, Rob Boteen, all of us used Dick Smith's blood formula because it 287 00:21:34,200 --> 00:21:40,519 was the best and Dick had refined it on The Godfather because in the Godfather, 288 00:21:41,519 --> 00:21:45,000 Copla decided to test all different types of blood formulas and movie blood. 289 00:21:45,039 --> 00:21:51,680 They even tested pig blood, and the Copola at the end gave Dick Smith's 290 00:21:51,799 --> 00:21:56,920 blood formula the vote for the most realistic blood and that became the industry standard 291 00:21:56,960 --> 00:22:03,160 and still is today. So I went back at your recommendation and rented It's 292 00:22:03,200 --> 00:22:07,480 like a buck ninety nine on Amazon. The Mutilator nineteen eighty four, which 293 00:22:07,480 --> 00:22:11,160 is a film you worked on. It is the I think, one of 294 00:22:11,200 --> 00:22:18,039 the quintessential eighties. It's so eighties. It's so eighties. The kills, 295 00:22:18,079 --> 00:22:22,319 though, are damn good, and so I'm, you know, going back 296 00:22:22,359 --> 00:22:26,519 forty years, but I'm doing this for memory. But there was a pitchfork 297 00:22:26,599 --> 00:22:29,200 he came out of the barn with was it a chainsaw? I mean, 298 00:22:29,799 --> 00:22:36,160 tell me about the Mutilator real fast mark. Basically, the nutshell is Buddy 299 00:22:36,160 --> 00:22:41,000 Cooper decided to make a horror movie and he didn't know who to call. 300 00:22:41,240 --> 00:22:45,039 So he looked. He found a Hollywood Yellow Pages and he found special effects. 301 00:22:45,680 --> 00:22:48,680 Call the guy, and this guy said, oh, He'd called my 302 00:22:48,799 --> 00:22:53,200 friend Anthony, and Anthony found out about the job, but he didn't have 303 00:22:53,240 --> 00:22:56,839 a portfolio strong enough to get the job. And I said to him, 304 00:22:57,039 --> 00:23:00,200 once you let us combine our portfolio, will send it to this guy in 305 00:23:00,240 --> 00:23:04,359 North Carolina and get the job. And Anthony resisted me on that. Finally 306 00:23:04,359 --> 00:23:08,079 I convinced him, let's do this. I sent my work, we got 307 00:23:08,119 --> 00:23:14,319 the job, and when we did the film, Anthony and I were kind 308 00:23:14,319 --> 00:23:19,079 of partners in the beginning. At some point he had problems with his personal 309 00:23:19,119 --> 00:23:25,079 life and he kind of up and left, so myself and Ed Ferrell finished 310 00:23:25,119 --> 00:23:30,039 the movie. As far as the the way that Buddy wanted to dispatch people, 311 00:23:30,079 --> 00:23:34,279 he used phishing implements, you know, except for the acts. The 312 00:23:34,359 --> 00:23:40,160 axe was an axe, but there was the big pitchfork, which I guess 313 00:23:40,200 --> 00:23:42,759 for piercing tuna, I don't know. But there was the gaff, the 314 00:23:42,799 --> 00:23:47,680 big hook, which is like a fish hook, only it's like, you 315 00:23:47,720 --> 00:23:51,480 know, the size of a dinner plate. And that had a very famous 316 00:23:51,519 --> 00:23:56,839 scene which most people remember. Essentially he was in the outboard motor, of 317 00:23:56,880 --> 00:24:02,160 course, for gutting poor or morey. And you've got what the one scene 318 00:24:02,160 --> 00:24:07,319 where there's a guy who's literally in two pieces like he's a torso lying on 319 00:24:07,359 --> 00:24:14,359 the ground, but he's still dangerous. Yeah, he's still acting. So 320 00:24:14,480 --> 00:24:17,319 is that you digging the hole for the actor? Are you the one making 321 00:24:17,359 --> 00:24:19,480 the legs with the jeans on him and the intestines? Yeah, it was 322 00:24:19,559 --> 00:24:26,240 Anthony and I made that and Ed Ed assisted Ed Ferrell. That was kind 323 00:24:26,240 --> 00:24:30,640 of a bit of a clusterfuck because the first ad, this guy from New 324 00:24:30,720 --> 00:24:37,440 York decided to switch the schedule on his We had like two weeks to go 325 00:24:37,599 --> 00:24:40,960 to shoot that effect, and he just wanted to kind of bust our balls 326 00:24:41,000 --> 00:24:41,440 and he said, well, no, we're shooting that, you know, 327 00:24:42,200 --> 00:24:45,960 tomorrow, so you have to be ready whatever it takes. And we were 328 00:24:45,799 --> 00:24:48,640 close to being done, but we still had to do the severed body. 329 00:24:49,559 --> 00:24:53,079 We'd made the crude body. We had to cut it in half. I 330 00:24:53,119 --> 00:24:56,559 had to finish painting the head. We had to figure a way to make 331 00:24:56,960 --> 00:25:02,680 the guts really quickly. We didn't have time to sculpt and mold and paint 332 00:25:02,720 --> 00:25:07,400 that stuff. So we use party balloons covered with melted gelatin and blood and 333 00:25:07,440 --> 00:25:11,759 it worked great. And that was out of necessity because we had to cook 334 00:25:11,799 --> 00:25:15,599 it up really quickly. I've heard stories of people just pouring like apple pie 335 00:25:15,640 --> 00:25:19,920 filling and stuff onto bodies, a lot of food items. I had to 336 00:25:19,920 --> 00:25:22,599 make brains on a movie once, and I went to craft service and got 337 00:25:22,599 --> 00:25:26,640 some bananas and mix it up with blood paste, you know, really quick 338 00:25:26,720 --> 00:25:30,319 flinging against the wall house that oh perfect. You know, well, if 339 00:25:30,319 --> 00:25:33,680 you're working with food stuff under the hot lights and then this is certainly back 340 00:25:33,720 --> 00:25:36,400 in the days that the hot tungsten lights burning it, you know, two 341 00:25:36,440 --> 00:25:41,920 thousand degrees or whatever, think it'll go bad. Like Angus scrim at the 342 00:25:42,000 --> 00:25:45,640 end of the day with the yogurt on him. He'd be wearing that for 343 00:25:45,640 --> 00:25:48,480 twelve hours. He kind of you know, kind of have a bit of 344 00:25:48,519 --> 00:25:55,720 an odor to it. Yeah, okay, we simply must talk Evil Dead, 345 00:25:56,519 --> 00:26:02,359 and I mean the original trilogy. Okay, Mark Showstrom left his fingerprints 346 00:26:02,400 --> 00:26:15,079 on the Evil Dead franchise. We're going to find out how next. Thank 347 00:26:15,119 --> 00:26:21,240 you so much for listening to this bonus broadcast. A nice diversion and distraction 348 00:26:21,480 --> 00:26:26,240 for your humble host, and hopefully the same for you. I'm speaking to 349 00:26:26,480 --> 00:26:36,880 long time television and film special effects makeup artist Mark Shostrom. Evil Dead is 350 00:26:37,559 --> 00:26:44,079 I don't know, it's another milestone film for me, and the trilogy Evil 351 00:26:44,119 --> 00:26:47,440 Dead one, Evil Dead two, an Army of Darkness, which I just 352 00:26:47,519 --> 00:26:52,279 learned recently that they wanted to call the Medieval Dead and they were turned down, 353 00:26:52,279 --> 00:26:55,839 and I feel that's a missed opportunity. But you worked on Evil Dead 354 00:26:56,400 --> 00:27:00,240 two. Is that correct? Yes? I saw a picture of you with 355 00:27:00,319 --> 00:27:04,200 ted Ramie, which is Sam the director, Sam Raimi's brother. He's in 356 00:27:04,279 --> 00:27:10,799 a shit ton of films, but he played the evil horror hag. Was 357 00:27:10,839 --> 00:27:17,279 it Henrietta something like that? Yes. Bruce Campbell referenced in his autobiography a 358 00:27:17,319 --> 00:27:23,920 scene where Henrietta is spinning from the ceiling and there's sweat coming out and apparently 359 00:27:23,960 --> 00:27:27,160 you can see. And so I went back and actually freeze framed. I 360 00:27:27,160 --> 00:27:30,440 don't know. You want to talk about the suit. The suit is a 361 00:27:30,480 --> 00:27:33,440 head to toe sculpture. I did. It took me about a week and 362 00:27:34,759 --> 00:27:38,240 yeah, that was a huge sculpture. If you go to I'll send you 363 00:27:38,359 --> 00:27:41,079 some behind the scenes pictures. That was a head to toe suit. The 364 00:27:41,079 --> 00:27:45,160 only part of ted Ramy that was real were the tops of his ears. 365 00:27:45,359 --> 00:27:48,799 Of course they had color on the makeup, even his tongue. I made 366 00:27:48,799 --> 00:27:52,960 a rubber tongue for him. In Denture's contact lenses. He was one hundred 367 00:27:52,960 --> 00:27:57,559 percent covered, well, ninety nine percent except for the top of the ears, 368 00:27:59,240 --> 00:28:02,559 but that has suit. It was about, you know, an inch 369 00:28:02,599 --> 00:28:06,920 and a half to two inches thick in places of plastic foam, and we're 370 00:28:06,920 --> 00:28:12,240 shooting in North Carolina during a heat wave and it would become I don't know, 371 00:28:15,079 --> 00:28:18,839 ninety degrees on stage. Finally we got air conditioning, which helped a 372 00:28:18,880 --> 00:28:23,359 bit, but still he was going through such physical rigors, you know, 373 00:28:23,440 --> 00:28:27,440 I mean being in a suit, under prosthetics and a heat wave on a 374 00:28:27,480 --> 00:28:32,920 sound stage for you know, ten hours up on a wire spinning around. 375 00:28:33,759 --> 00:28:37,279 Yeah, he was sweating a lot every day. We had to take his 376 00:28:37,359 --> 00:28:41,240 rubber feet off at the end and you could literally pour the sweat out. 377 00:28:41,599 --> 00:28:44,720 It was pretty gross. Is it true that you guys had to have like 378 00:28:44,759 --> 00:28:48,680 an oxygen tank for him or is that just no he had Basically when we 379 00:28:49,920 --> 00:28:53,119 came it was so hot there and I knew it was going to be a 380 00:28:53,119 --> 00:28:56,720 problem. I went to the production manager and said, we need to get 381 00:28:56,759 --> 00:29:00,119 air conditioning. Well, we can't afford it. That's going to cost you 382 00:29:00,160 --> 00:29:03,720 know, ten thousand dollars and I went to Sam, I believe Sam and 383 00:29:03,759 --> 00:29:06,200 Rob and I said, look, if we don't get air conditioning, your 384 00:29:06,240 --> 00:29:10,720 brother's going to die. Okay seriously, So they paid for air conditioning for 385 00:29:10,759 --> 00:29:14,440 this. It wasn't a sound stage. It was actually the gymnasium of an 386 00:29:14,440 --> 00:29:22,200 old school and we had many of these big tubes to direct the airflow, 387 00:29:22,400 --> 00:29:26,880 and Ted had his own tube. So after every take we'd open up and 388 00:29:27,039 --> 00:29:32,000 zip the back put one of the air conditioning tubes right there and just below 389 00:29:32,079 --> 00:29:36,519 the cold air right in there directly. But no, he never had oxygen 390 00:29:36,640 --> 00:29:41,799 or anything like that. Ash Williams, Bruce Campbell's character, the iconic Ash, 391 00:29:41,000 --> 00:29:45,960 lops off his hand with a chainsaw and the hand becomes a character like 392 00:29:47,000 --> 00:29:51,480 a new character in the film. You were involved with the iconic hand mark? 393 00:29:51,599 --> 00:29:56,640 Is that right? Absolutely? Yeah? In what way? Creating it, 394 00:29:56,920 --> 00:30:03,359 making all the different versions of it for different uses, Like we had 395 00:30:03,400 --> 00:30:08,920 one independent radio controlled hand for a movement like when Cassie is holding the hand 396 00:30:10,359 --> 00:30:14,960 and the light comes on on the hand is moving. There was a version 397 00:30:15,039 --> 00:30:18,839 to run across the floor. There was a version which was a stump with 398 00:30:18,920 --> 00:30:23,240 the palm up for being on the floor, a version with the palm down 399 00:30:23,400 --> 00:30:29,680 for being on the floor, stunt versions, all these different types of hands, 400 00:30:29,720 --> 00:30:34,559 and plus the ones that begin the effect with Bruce with his what happens, 401 00:30:37,079 --> 00:30:38,799 I forget what happens. We had a couple of different hands for him 402 00:30:40,599 --> 00:30:44,359 as the nails come out or whatever happens. I forget. It's been so 403 00:30:44,480 --> 00:30:48,480 long, it's been forty years. But you know, he's the hand becomes 404 00:30:48,519 --> 00:30:52,480 possessed and he decides he's going to like separate himself from the evil. And 405 00:30:52,519 --> 00:30:59,599 then the hands scampering around and it's making that little sound. That little is 406 00:30:59,640 --> 00:31:04,160 actually I mean, it's hysterical. It's just iconic. And the first effect 407 00:31:04,160 --> 00:31:10,160 we shot was involving his hand. That was my I'd spent you know, 408 00:31:10,799 --> 00:31:12,920 four months prepping, and I knew I had to deliver, and I wanted 409 00:31:12,960 --> 00:31:18,960 to look good on the first thing we filmed, which was Bruce dragging himself 410 00:31:18,000 --> 00:31:23,119 across the floor and stabbing his hand. So I'd worked hard to make sure 411 00:31:23,160 --> 00:31:29,279 this this damn thing would stab when you would bleed when you stabbed it and 412 00:31:29,359 --> 00:31:32,440 all that. So there's a lot of pressure on me. If that first 413 00:31:32,640 --> 00:31:36,480 filmed defect had fucked up they might be looking at me, going, why 414 00:31:36,519 --> 00:31:38,200 do we hire this guy? But it worked out great, Thank God. 415 00:31:40,119 --> 00:31:44,000 So much blood in Evil Dead two, And it's funny because the tone of 416 00:31:44,039 --> 00:31:47,640 the film's change, and I think it they smartly change. Evil Dead one 417 00:31:47,839 --> 00:31:51,319 is pure horror with you know, there's some comedy in it, but I 418 00:31:51,359 --> 00:31:55,759 mean it's it's really a It's comedy in the way that Texas Chainsaw had some 419 00:31:55,880 --> 00:31:59,400 darkly funny things in it, but Evil Dad two really rams it up. 420 00:32:00,240 --> 00:32:04,240 So much blood, like literal barrels of blood. When you're shooting or when 421 00:32:04,240 --> 00:32:07,960 you're creating, do you make up guys think to yourself, Oh my god, 422 00:32:07,039 --> 00:32:10,680 the MPAA ratings board will never go for this. Do you think like 423 00:32:10,720 --> 00:32:15,640 that? Sometimes you read a script like The Mutilator or Evil Dead Too, 424 00:32:15,680 --> 00:32:20,519 and you just know right away there's no way in hell that the MPAA is 425 00:32:20,559 --> 00:32:23,240 going to let this one go through as an R. You just have to 426 00:32:23,279 --> 00:32:28,759 accept it's going to be an X. It's funny you had mentioned the blood. 427 00:32:29,119 --> 00:32:32,920 The very last thing we shot on Evil Dead two, after everything, 428 00:32:34,039 --> 00:32:37,599 even all the pickup shots and everything, was the blood shooting out of the 429 00:32:37,599 --> 00:32:44,720 walls, blowing Bruce Campbell around the room and they were shooting at last because 430 00:32:44,759 --> 00:32:47,880 it was going to destroy the whole set. And Verne Heigh, the special 431 00:32:47,920 --> 00:32:53,319 effects guy, the mechanical special effects guy from Atlanta, had this tanker truck 432 00:32:53,480 --> 00:33:00,759 full of blood. It was insane. Heck hooked up to all these pumps 433 00:33:00,039 --> 00:33:05,920 that were connected to the walls at different places. And I remember standing in 434 00:33:05,960 --> 00:33:10,440 the ladder above the set looking down into it watching the first take where the 435 00:33:10,480 --> 00:33:15,960 blood Bruce is standing there, the blood starts to shoot out. I mean 436 00:33:15,000 --> 00:33:20,279 it was like a rocket blast. It was insane. There was so much 437 00:33:20,319 --> 00:33:23,839 blood shooting out everywhere. Of course, just destroyed the entire set, so 438 00:33:23,880 --> 00:33:29,079 it was basically a one take you get five cameras on it or whatever it 439 00:33:29,119 --> 00:33:32,240 was. It was absolutely nuts. Bruce Campbell said that he was like sneezing 440 00:33:32,279 --> 00:33:36,839 blood for a week because it had just I mean it came out with a 441 00:33:36,920 --> 00:33:42,119 great force. Yeah, like a fire hose of blood. The blood flood 442 00:33:42,160 --> 00:33:46,519 bigger, way bigger than a fire hose. Just astounding in its scale of 443 00:33:46,839 --> 00:33:51,079 you know, big holes in the wall like this with blood shooting out. 444 00:33:51,359 --> 00:33:52,720 I heard somewhere, I want to say it was on one of the some 445 00:33:52,799 --> 00:33:57,920 of the Friday the thirteenth films, but some of the special effects guys would 446 00:33:58,319 --> 00:34:01,640 go so over the top, and they planned for the fact that, well, 447 00:34:02,160 --> 00:34:05,400 we know they're going to slice this out, but they were kind of 448 00:34:05,400 --> 00:34:07,199 tricking the ratings board. They're like, we're going to go so over the 449 00:34:07,199 --> 00:34:13,719 top that they'll slice this out, but they'll leave what we had originally intended. 450 00:34:13,760 --> 00:34:15,360 I guess we're going to desensitize them. Is that a myth or is 451 00:34:15,400 --> 00:34:20,559 that real? I've heard of that happening. Actually a lot with directors as 452 00:34:20,599 --> 00:34:30,079 well, who shoot. They'll submit their one version, which is the MPAA 453 00:34:30,199 --> 00:34:32,800 version, well knowing it's going to be cut, and they'll recent will cut, 454 00:34:32,800 --> 00:34:36,440 you know, five frames and resubmit and say, well we cut that 455 00:34:36,480 --> 00:34:38,920 part out, and the MPa might look and go okay. All of a 456 00:34:38,920 --> 00:34:44,960 sudden, you get it passed. So you get your original intended products submitted 457 00:34:45,000 --> 00:34:49,039 and approved. I guess there's a method to the madness of that mark. 458 00:34:49,239 --> 00:34:51,400 Is it just a joke? I mean, come on, I mean, 459 00:34:52,039 --> 00:34:55,039 who are those guys and who's making the decision? And you know, I 460 00:34:55,039 --> 00:35:00,280 don't know. I have a big problem with censorship in any way, shape 461 00:35:00,320 --> 00:35:05,800 or form. It's ridiculous there's a whole documentary called this Film is Not Yet 462 00:35:05,920 --> 00:35:09,840 Rated, and it's about it literally is a documentary about trying to find well, 463 00:35:09,880 --> 00:35:14,840 who are the people who are rating our films? And it turns out 464 00:35:14,840 --> 00:35:17,800 they have almost no qualifications of any kind. I think you have to have 465 00:35:19,360 --> 00:35:22,360 you have to have a kid under eighteen, and I think they have a 466 00:35:22,360 --> 00:35:24,519 couple of clergy who are consulting, you know, But other than that, 467 00:35:24,559 --> 00:35:29,440 it's just random people. What I don't get is, you know, here 468 00:35:29,599 --> 00:35:37,320 in the United States, you can't show I remember watching American Horror Story the 469 00:35:37,360 --> 00:35:42,559 first season. I've never seen it, and they're showing American Horror Story and 470 00:35:42,599 --> 00:35:46,440 the Walking Dead. They're showing extremely graphic, gruesome things, people's heads being 471 00:35:46,559 --> 00:35:53,400 sliced and maggots and zombies just oozing gore. And there was a scene or 472 00:35:53,400 --> 00:35:58,920 a shot in the American Horror Story where it's a dream sequence or something of 473 00:35:58,960 --> 00:36:04,719 a woman floating, and I noticed they blurred out her nipples and her puby 474 00:36:04,760 --> 00:36:07,960 care. Okay, I can't understand the pubic hair, but you're blurring a 475 00:36:08,000 --> 00:36:14,039 woman's nipples. But you can also show knives going into people neck, people's 476 00:36:14,079 --> 00:36:20,760 necks, you know, the American news shows suicides. They show people getting 477 00:36:20,840 --> 00:36:23,599 killed and gory stuff all the time, but they won't say shit and fuck 478 00:36:23,719 --> 00:36:29,239 on the nightly news words that everybody hears every day, like excuse me, 479 00:36:30,760 --> 00:36:36,159 you worked on Nightmare on Elm Street two officially two and three, But did 480 00:36:36,239 --> 00:36:37,840 you work at all on one? I saw you, I saw the word 481 00:36:38,000 --> 00:36:43,320 uncredited. What I did? I worked. My friend Dave Miller was doing 482 00:36:43,440 --> 00:36:50,199 Freddy's makeup and he called me one day and what was that summer of eighty 483 00:36:50,239 --> 00:36:52,719 four, and he said, Hey, I'm doing this thing called a Nightmare 484 00:36:52,719 --> 00:36:55,199 on Elm Street, and I need some help in my garage, his garage 485 00:36:55,239 --> 00:36:59,840 workshop, because they keep having me make up this guy in this burn. 486 00:37:00,800 --> 00:37:02,559 I bring him to the set, I have to wait to see if they're 487 00:37:02,559 --> 00:37:06,239 gonna shoot. They never shoot with him, so I'm not getting stuff at 488 00:37:06,239 --> 00:37:10,559 my workshop done. So I spent a week, literally one week or maybe 489 00:37:10,599 --> 00:37:15,880 a week and a half at Dave's workshop. I remember sculpting on the Ronnie 490 00:37:15,880 --> 00:37:20,719 Blakeley body at the end that she kind of rises out as she's a dead 491 00:37:20,760 --> 00:37:27,039 corpse. And I forget what else I did, but my daily task first 492 00:37:27,840 --> 00:37:32,280 was to make the phone pieces for Freddy's shooting next day, and the moles 493 00:37:32,280 --> 00:37:36,719 at dave us were these little square dental stone moles that were very thin, 494 00:37:36,800 --> 00:37:40,239 and every time you bake them you had to bake the phone. Every time 495 00:37:40,280 --> 00:37:45,599 you bake them at two hundred degrees they would fall apart. So my day 496 00:37:45,639 --> 00:37:51,559 began, arrive at Dave shop, have coffee, super glue the fucking moles 497 00:37:51,559 --> 00:37:54,719 together, run the phone, close the moles, put them in, bake 498 00:37:54,760 --> 00:37:59,079 them and then pull them out at the end of the day and they'd fall 499 00:37:59,119 --> 00:38:04,320 apart. Superlued together again, and then day would take the rubber pieces from 500 00:38:04,320 --> 00:38:07,320 the moles, go to set the next day make up. Robert England sit 501 00:38:07,400 --> 00:38:12,039 around all day and they wouldn't film him. So I was running foam, 502 00:38:12,119 --> 00:38:15,639 it's called running foam, making the phone pieces. I was doing that every 503 00:38:15,719 --> 00:38:19,239 day for a week, week and a half, just to keep Dave supplied 504 00:38:19,320 --> 00:38:24,079 with his pieces. I heard that freaking Freddy glove was super heavy. I 505 00:38:24,079 --> 00:38:28,000 mean, come on, tell me you weren't tempted to discover and put that 506 00:38:28,079 --> 00:38:30,960 sucker on, or maybe it was guarded like the Holy Grail. At that 507 00:38:30,000 --> 00:38:34,679 time. I didn't go to set on the first one. On the second 508 00:38:34,719 --> 00:38:37,760 one, I remember I probably put the glove on to try it. I 509 00:38:37,800 --> 00:38:43,239 know I had to reference it to go examine the blades because we had to 510 00:38:43,239 --> 00:38:49,239 make blades from Mark Patten's effects hands, like when his fingers grow the blades 511 00:38:49,280 --> 00:38:53,199 grow out of Mark's hand. I do know that the end of by the 512 00:38:53,280 --> 00:38:58,960 end of the third film, we're about done shooting, is like the last 513 00:38:59,039 --> 00:39:02,119 day or the second to the last day. Here's somebody announce okay, you 514 00:39:02,159 --> 00:39:06,599 know, make sure you know we have the Freddie glove handy. And at 515 00:39:06,599 --> 00:39:09,840 the end the last day of shooting, the Freddy glove is missing. Who 516 00:39:10,000 --> 00:39:14,559 has it? Because somebody would make off with it to sell it or something 517 00:39:14,639 --> 00:39:17,199 like that. But they had many, many versions of it. What did 518 00:39:17,239 --> 00:39:21,639 you do on two and three? I mean it's a broad question, but 519 00:39:22,039 --> 00:39:24,199 on two I did the whole transformation scene in the middle of the movie of 520 00:39:25,039 --> 00:39:30,119 Freddy Mark Patton turning into Freddy Krueger, the hands, the arm effects, 521 00:39:30,280 --> 00:39:34,679 the tearing open of the body and all that there was. You know, 522 00:39:36,000 --> 00:39:39,400 forty seconds of screen time was ten weeks of work. And on three I 523 00:39:39,440 --> 00:39:45,559 did just a multitude of different effects myself, Kevin Yeger and Greg Cannon, 524 00:39:47,079 --> 00:39:52,320 lots of stuff, the good old days of eighties horror. It is more 525 00:39:52,360 --> 00:39:55,199 and more a world where we see CGI. And I'm not one of those 526 00:39:55,239 --> 00:39:59,559 guys who's like, you know, the kind of the hipster man back in 527 00:39:59,599 --> 00:40:05,239 the day when effects real man. But I also, you know, there 528 00:40:05,360 --> 00:40:09,039 is I don't know, there's a gravity to practical effects that sometimes I miss. 529 00:40:09,960 --> 00:40:15,039 Whenever you see the digital seems you think, oh wow, you know, 530 00:40:15,039 --> 00:40:17,320 I wonder how long that took to render, which is kind of a 531 00:40:17,360 --> 00:40:23,239 different thing. And so I go back and forth. I wish I was 532 00:40:23,280 --> 00:40:27,599 seeing more practical effects, or maybe I am and don't realize it. Do 533 00:40:27,679 --> 00:40:31,360 you have that conversation about the old school and the new ways, et cetera. 534 00:40:31,960 --> 00:40:37,079 Mmmm, well, that's a broad topic. I mean it's funny just 535 00:40:37,159 --> 00:40:40,320 even the word the term practical effects. To me when I hear it, 536 00:40:40,400 --> 00:40:43,920 I just kind of shake my head and just go, well, their effects 537 00:40:44,000 --> 00:40:47,719 I knew them in the eighties as effects. Of course, today everybody's practical 538 00:40:47,760 --> 00:40:55,840 effects CG. I have mixed feelings, but I mean CGI can do incredible 539 00:40:55,880 --> 00:41:01,159 things. I think what impresses me most about CGI is the environment so they 540 00:41:01,159 --> 00:41:06,320 can create. Like when I saw mind Hunter, they were creating all these 541 00:41:07,840 --> 00:41:15,000 townscapes from the seventies in Pennsylvania or whatever. There was just repeated layers of 542 00:41:15,440 --> 00:41:22,119 environmental effects which looked fantastic, just beautiful. When it comes to creature work, 543 00:41:22,159 --> 00:41:25,719 I'm of course more critical, and they can do amazing things. But 544 00:41:28,039 --> 00:41:31,519 often if you have a creature designer who's only worked at a mouse their entire 545 00:41:31,599 --> 00:41:39,039 career, who has no sculpture background, no hands on sculpture or anatomy lessons, 546 00:41:39,480 --> 00:41:45,199 you're not going to have the reality inside that creature. And one thing 547 00:41:45,199 --> 00:41:52,079 that I've found that's always missing is weight. You can have a person in 548 00:41:52,119 --> 00:41:57,719 a rubber suit, like you know, Bob Pacardo in Explorers walking through and 549 00:41:57,760 --> 00:42:02,480 you can sense the weight because there's a physical person in there which has weight. 550 00:42:04,159 --> 00:42:09,159 You don't get weight in CGI is very You can get the skin textures, 551 00:42:09,199 --> 00:42:15,719 you can create hair and water, but to create a big creature that's 552 00:42:15,800 --> 00:42:20,079 lumbering across the screen that actually looks like it's heavy to me, they've never 553 00:42:20,159 --> 00:42:23,119 accomplished that, or I haven't seen that movie. And if I can do 554 00:42:23,239 --> 00:42:27,400 a little, you know, just to clear the air, I'm not distancedg 555 00:42:27,559 --> 00:42:30,199 for anybody who's watching, Like when I see when I see Godzilla, you 556 00:42:30,199 --> 00:42:35,360 know, when I see Pacific Rim, when I see X mack in etc. 557 00:42:35,679 --> 00:42:39,000 And I see the amazing you know, just a world building that is 558 00:42:39,079 --> 00:42:45,840 done correctly and well there's so much imagination. Well it's it's the trick of 559 00:42:46,079 --> 00:42:51,719 knowing when to use CG or practical and knowing when to blend the two. 560 00:42:51,800 --> 00:42:57,079 Like Gimo del Toro does the blend perfectly in Pans Labyrinth with the goat creature 561 00:42:57,880 --> 00:43:00,920 and in Ex Machina. I just saw that for the first time, maybe 562 00:43:01,039 --> 00:43:07,159 six months ago. I was blown away with the creation that robot woman. 563 00:43:07,440 --> 00:43:13,840 And that was a mixture of prosthetic makeup and her movements, her body and 564 00:43:14,000 --> 00:43:19,360 CG to create all the insides and the see through parts. It was beautifully 565 00:43:20,199 --> 00:43:22,360 created. And that was a mixture, a blending of the two, a 566 00:43:22,440 --> 00:43:28,239 correct blending of the two, very effective, beautiful work. Did you work 567 00:43:28,360 --> 00:43:32,480 on Generations? Is that right? I did? Yeah, Star Trek Generations 568 00:43:32,519 --> 00:43:37,800 the film which combined the original and next generation casts. It's kind of a 569 00:43:37,800 --> 00:43:45,079 polarizing film. What did you do for Generations? I began by doing klingon 570 00:43:45,159 --> 00:43:49,760 makeups with Greg Nelson and a couple of other people. But I also did 571 00:43:49,800 --> 00:43:54,400 some sculptures for the movie for Patrick Stewart and Brent Speiner. For Brent, 572 00:43:54,519 --> 00:44:01,159 I had to do there's a scene where Jeordie he has to twist the top 573 00:44:01,239 --> 00:44:07,519 of Data's head and lift it off, and I had to sculpt a complete 574 00:44:07,599 --> 00:44:12,800 wrap around foe head piece for Brent. In fact, I remember working for 575 00:44:12,880 --> 00:44:15,400 Michael westmore than I said, if you don't have any pictures, I need 576 00:44:15,440 --> 00:44:21,840 to see Brent. So Brent actually sat in front of me while I sculpted 577 00:44:21,880 --> 00:44:27,159 the details of the way his forehead wrinkles went and all that. And for 578 00:44:27,320 --> 00:44:31,840 Patrick, they did some post production work and they'd finished shooting all his stuff 579 00:44:31,880 --> 00:44:37,400 in Generations and he was off doing a play and his hair was a different 580 00:44:37,480 --> 00:44:42,920 length, but he couldn't cut it. So Richard Snell, a makeup artist 581 00:44:42,920 --> 00:44:47,559 who's passed away, he did a ball cap on Richard on Patrick, but 582 00:44:50,320 --> 00:44:54,960 it was a scene over the shoulder, a Christmas shot over Patrick's shoulder where 583 00:44:55,000 --> 00:45:00,360 he's got the bald head and the hair. But I needed to make a 584 00:45:00,519 --> 00:45:05,760 neck to cover the bald cap join which is all funky and weird and wrinkly, 585 00:45:05,800 --> 00:45:13,440 So I had to basically duplicate Patrick Stewart's neck and his shoulders up into 586 00:45:13,480 --> 00:45:16,559 his forehead, So it's kind of a disguise, makeup camouflage thing. You 587 00:45:16,599 --> 00:45:21,079 never know it's there. Oh, I got to go find one quick shot. 588 00:45:21,119 --> 00:45:22,440 If you blink, you miss it. I got to go find that 589 00:45:22,599 --> 00:45:25,559 somewhere, by the way, I feel. I just felt betrayed when they 590 00:45:25,639 --> 00:45:30,400 left Kirk's corpse. First of all, he dies by falling down. That 591 00:45:30,519 --> 00:45:34,039 bothered me, greatest captain in the history of starfleet. And then they just 592 00:45:34,119 --> 00:45:37,079 leave him under a pile of rocks to get eaten by the foreign planet vultures 593 00:45:37,400 --> 00:45:42,280 and then they fly away. I have issues, Mark, I feel grief 594 00:45:42,599 --> 00:45:47,280 over the death of Kirk in that way. Just say it. You worked 595 00:45:47,280 --> 00:45:52,280 on Voyager, is that right? Or DS nine, which I worked? 596 00:45:52,679 --> 00:45:58,039 Actually, I was working at the same time on DS nine, Generations and 597 00:45:58,280 --> 00:46:02,360 Voyager prep. Was kind of hopping back and forth on all three for a 598 00:46:02,400 --> 00:46:07,079 while. You make in Ferengi and stuff, or what do you doing now? 599 00:46:07,079 --> 00:46:10,119 I was doing a lot of sculpting guest stars in deep space sculpting for 600 00:46:10,239 --> 00:46:17,159 Voyager, stepping in to do sculptures and applications on Generations, all within like 601 00:46:17,199 --> 00:46:23,320 a month period, and then when Voyager started up in Earnest, Michael Wesmore 602 00:46:23,360 --> 00:46:28,719 hired me as the last staffer on that. Do you feel like sci fi 603 00:46:29,119 --> 00:46:31,400 horror? I don't know. Do make up people tend to fall into those 604 00:46:31,440 --> 00:46:37,000 genres simply because they tend to be more makeup intensive or was that your passion? 605 00:46:37,039 --> 00:46:37,840 But you're like, oh my god, I want to work horror, 606 00:46:37,920 --> 00:46:43,440 sci fi or does a word like that. There's a hell of a lot 607 00:46:43,519 --> 00:46:46,920 more makeup effects in sci fi and horror screenplays, obviously, So yeah, 608 00:46:47,000 --> 00:46:52,480 you just if I look at my resume, you know there's a lot of 609 00:46:52,480 --> 00:46:55,679 horror, there's some sci fi, maybe one or two fantasy. I'd rather 610 00:46:55,719 --> 00:47:01,920 work on dramas actually, but they're not makeupffects intensive and heavy. I'm looking 611 00:47:01,960 --> 00:47:07,519 here at a couple of other uncredited roles, David Cronenberg's Videodrome classic, the 612 00:47:07,519 --> 00:47:15,760 Beast Master Classic, John Carpenter's Prince of Darkness Classic. Well, why uncredited? 613 00:47:15,800 --> 00:47:17,800 I mean, did they just bring you in to solve a problem? 614 00:47:17,840 --> 00:47:22,800 What happened? A lot of people get uncredited for you come in and do 615 00:47:22,280 --> 00:47:27,599 work for a few weeks and you're not the main person, or in the 616 00:47:27,639 --> 00:47:34,320 case of Forbidden World, the production manager was too cheap to give everybody credit, 617 00:47:34,840 --> 00:47:37,400 which has always bothered me. I mean, it's not that expensive to 618 00:47:37,559 --> 00:47:42,719 submit a name to be put in the credits. But sometimes you get lost, 619 00:47:42,760 --> 00:47:45,960 and if you're there for a week and the rest of the crews on 620 00:47:46,000 --> 00:47:51,159 the film for four months, you might not get on the list, or 621 00:47:51,199 --> 00:47:54,039 they'll spill your name wrong. So hey, Mark, we give credit here. 622 00:47:54,519 --> 00:47:58,679 You have full credit right here on this. No. I always give 623 00:47:58,679 --> 00:48:01,079 credit too. It's a big thing of mind. People do the work, 624 00:48:01,119 --> 00:48:05,360 they should get credited. In fact, on Deep Star six, I had 625 00:48:05,440 --> 00:48:08,199 twenty four people working with me, and I submitted all their names. At 626 00:48:08,239 --> 00:48:10,800 the end of the production, I said, here's the list, here's who 627 00:48:10,840 --> 00:48:19,280 did what. The line producer just arbitrarily picked ten of the twenty four and 628 00:48:19,320 --> 00:48:23,800 gave them I mean, I had specific people on specific jobs, painter, 629 00:48:24,599 --> 00:48:30,400 mechanical, animatronics, and this idiot, whoever did it, I forget who 630 00:48:30,400 --> 00:48:35,599 it was, just arbitrarily picked less than half those names and put them down 631 00:48:35,679 --> 00:48:39,480 as creature guy, creature guy, creature guy, creature guy. Come on, 632 00:48:40,400 --> 00:48:44,559 people busted their asses for five months on that and you can't even give 633 00:48:44,599 --> 00:48:47,519 him credit. You know, fuck people like that. Mark, you are 634 00:48:47,639 --> 00:48:52,719 a library of stories, anecdotes, information, just good stuff. I would 635 00:48:52,760 --> 00:48:55,039 love that. I wish we were just you know, having coffee. We'd 636 00:48:55,039 --> 00:48:59,880 just probably keep going here. But thanks, thanks for squeezing me in. 637 00:49:00,159 --> 00:49:02,559 Do you know your life? Your schedule? For talking about so much of 638 00:49:02,599 --> 00:49:06,760 your work? I had all these other things we could have. We could 639 00:49:06,760 --> 00:49:08,960 have talked about the X files, we could have talked about you, but 640 00:49:09,400 --> 00:49:14,760 I think I probably better call it otherwise. We'll be here until tomorrow for 641 00:49:14,840 --> 00:49:16,760 those who want to know more. How do people find you and your work? 642 00:49:17,039 --> 00:49:21,920 Yeah, I'm an Instagram and Twitter. I use a special secret code 643 00:49:22,159 --> 00:49:24,719 which is my real name, and like most people, yeah, I'm on 644 00:49:24,800 --> 00:49:30,760 Instagram, Twitter, Facebook, which I don't do much social media less and 645 00:49:30,840 --> 00:49:36,679 less these days. Is there a place where people can see kind of a 646 00:49:36,760 --> 00:49:39,239 portfolio or is the best thing just to google your name? Mark? Showst 647 00:49:40,440 --> 00:49:45,519 YouTube thing and it's got my real let me. I'm not even sure what 648 00:49:45,559 --> 00:49:47,920 the name of it is. I don't just shoot it to me and I'll 649 00:49:47,920 --> 00:49:52,119 put it in the description box. Okay, I'll need to derail yourself now, 650 00:49:52,159 --> 00:49:54,639 but yeah, send it to me and we'll send that link to everybody. 651 00:49:54,599 --> 00:49:59,320 I'll if you have IMDb pro I think it links to my real I'm 652 00:49:59,320 --> 00:50:04,280 not I don't do too much self promotion and all that. And now your 653 00:50:04,280 --> 00:50:08,039 works terrific man. You are a almost half century veteran of the business, 654 00:50:08,079 --> 00:50:13,079 and you've got so much good stuff out there. And for those who are 655 00:50:13,159 --> 00:50:15,239 fans of these genres like I am, it's just an honor to be able 656 00:50:15,239 --> 00:50:19,840 to hang out and talk. So I'll put those links in the description box, 657 00:50:19,920 --> 00:50:23,280 and all good stuff and all safety and all my best for twenty twenty 658 00:50:23,320 --> 00:50:27,639 four and let's chat again someday. All right, thank you, sir. 659 00:50:28,079 --> 00:50:32,480 Follow The Thinking Atheist on Facebook and Twitter for a complete archive of podcasts and 660 00:50:32,599 --> 00:50:37,239 videos, products like mugs and t shirts featuring the Thinking Atheist logo, links 661 00:50:37,239 --> 00:50:43,559 to atheist pages and resources, and details on upcoming free thought events and conventions. 662 00:50:43,960 --> 00:50:47,239 Log onto our website, The Thinkingatheist dot com.