WEBVTT 1 00:00:01.439 --> 00:00:09.000 Is sponsored by Wallstreet, Window dot Com and listeners like you Yeah and Nowgted 2 00:00:09.119 --> 00:00:17.039 Noise and in our media shack April seventeen, twenty twenty four, allegedly, 3 00:00:17.079 --> 00:00:21.039 according to that thing we call a calendar, this is indeed the o'celly effect, 4 00:00:21.039 --> 00:00:24.079 and I am live on a woldenes Day, Wednesday, middle of the 5 00:00:24.079 --> 00:00:26.679 week, hump day, whatever you want to call it. Uh, But 6 00:00:26.800 --> 00:00:29.359 most of you will catch this further on down the stream, et cetera, 7 00:00:29.399 --> 00:00:33.399 et cetera, cause we are also a podcast, the o'cell effect. That 8 00:00:33.520 --> 00:00:37.960 is, I'm not a podcast, although sometimes I play one on your device 9 00:00:38.000 --> 00:00:41.479 of choice. Anyway, it is what it is. It is Wednesday. 10 00:00:41.520 --> 00:00:46.600 This day in history, in fact, is relevant to tonight's discussion and my 11 00:00:46.719 --> 00:00:50.880 returning co host once again for the evening, Larry Hancock, who is the 12 00:00:50.920 --> 00:00:57.880 author on many, many, many subjects, often revolving around the intelligence reactions, 13 00:00:58.240 --> 00:01:03.920 the United States actions, the geopolitical spheres of influence, many many things, 14 00:01:04.319 --> 00:01:07.719 aside from the assassination of John F. Kennedy, which, oh, 15 00:01:07.760 --> 00:01:11.480 by the way, we might have to discuss here because the Bay of Pigs 16 00:01:11.519 --> 00:01:15.680 happened sixty three years ago. Now, all your numerology people might be going 17 00:01:15.680 --> 00:01:19.760 sixty three years ago for the thing that happened in nineteen sixty three, and 18 00:01:19.760 --> 00:01:23.319 then you're gonna tell me which parallel it occurred on and what time of day 19 00:01:23.359 --> 00:01:26.879 it actually was on the clock according to the Sun dial. Let's calm down, 20 00:01:26.959 --> 00:01:34.519 everybody and get some real context from Larry Hancock about this. And while 21 00:01:34.560 --> 00:01:37.840 you're at it, check out Larry's work takes up a lot of space on 22 00:01:37.879 --> 00:01:41.200 my bookshelf, et cetera, et cetera, And it doesn't just take up 23 00:01:41.239 --> 00:01:45.879 space or collect dust, because it's very useful stuff and some of the best 24 00:01:45.879 --> 00:01:51.359 stuff out there. From Surprise Attack, Shadow Warfare. You might think that 25 00:01:51.480 --> 00:01:53.359 something like the Bay of Pigs would get mentioned in those books, and indeed, 26 00:01:53.400 --> 00:01:57.719 I'm sure they do, as well as in Tipping Point, as well 27 00:01:57.760 --> 00:02:01.719 as in someone would have talked maybe not unidentified, because I don't remember any 28 00:02:01.760 --> 00:02:06.920 sort of unidentified flying objects at least, you know, maybe there were some 29 00:02:06.959 --> 00:02:10.520 in the rooms in DC when things were occurring, but I don't think there 30 00:02:10.520 --> 00:02:16.560 were unidentified flying objects at the Bay of Pigs, this location near Cuba. 31 00:02:16.800 --> 00:02:21.000 Of course, we're back to talking about Cuba and what might have been involved 32 00:02:21.000 --> 00:02:24.759 there, and many people discuss it and reference it when talking about the assassination. 33 00:02:25.280 --> 00:02:28.719 Oh, by the way, did I mention tipping point? Did I 34 00:02:28.759 --> 00:02:31.199 mention someone would have talked? Did I mention that? Larry has many other 35 00:02:31.639 --> 00:02:36.159 books out there, either authored or co authored by him, The Awful Grace 36 00:02:36.199 --> 00:02:40.240 of God Killing King one an update of the other. You know this kind 37 00:02:40.240 --> 00:02:46.919 of stuff, So that assassination various interactions UAPs, which we have discussed recently 38 00:02:47.000 --> 00:02:52.879 on the show, A wide variety of topics where you get some very clean, 39 00:02:53.400 --> 00:02:57.879 good solid analysis from a man who I'm satisfied to call not only an 40 00:02:57.919 --> 00:03:02.599 author but a historian. I don't think you technically have that training per se, 41 00:03:02.719 --> 00:03:07.199 but all the work you've done, you've definitely laid out a historical set 42 00:03:07.240 --> 00:03:12.919 of references, and all of them valuable. I recommend all of them highly 43 00:03:13.319 --> 00:03:17.159 well. And indeed you might want to look at a detailed discussion of the 44 00:03:17.159 --> 00:03:23.360 Bay of Pigs in a book called in Denial, which you might recognize that 45 00:03:23.400 --> 00:03:28.639 title because I do run a spot almost every show that comes through this network 46 00:03:29.000 --> 00:03:32.199 for that book authored by Larry Hancock, and I happen to have a copy 47 00:03:32.240 --> 00:03:36.159 of that, and well, every one of Larry's books, and I'm looking 48 00:03:36.199 --> 00:03:39.000 forward to the new one, which I'm not sure when it's coming out. 49 00:03:39.039 --> 00:03:44.080 Maybe Larry can help us and fill us in as to when that might be 50 00:03:44.159 --> 00:03:50.599 presentable. But a new book taking another look at Lee Harvey Oswald, when 51 00:03:50.639 --> 00:03:53.120 does that do to come out? Larry? And how you doing tonight? 52 00:03:53.159 --> 00:03:57.199 By the way, Oh, I'm fine, Jack. I certainly hope that 53 00:03:57.240 --> 00:04:00.120 the Osweall book will be out by the end of the year. I hope 54 00:04:00.159 --> 00:04:04.560 it will be out by the time of the Lancer conference in November. It's 55 00:04:05.120 --> 00:04:13.199 we have the going into the final edit with Rex right now, but then 56 00:04:13.240 --> 00:04:17.399 there's proofreading, there's publishing, but the writing part is essentially done, so 57 00:04:17.759 --> 00:04:23.399 that's relief and turn out. There were only four hundred and twenty seven footnotes, 58 00:04:23.639 --> 00:04:26.399 so people can really look forward to that too. Oh, there you 59 00:04:26.439 --> 00:04:29.519 go, four hundred and twenty seven footnotes. I mean, Larry, what 60 00:04:29.519 --> 00:04:32.519 are you getting lazy? I mean, what's going on here? And by 61 00:04:32.519 --> 00:04:35.680 the way, I believe that out numbers the number of pages, and I'm 62 00:04:35.680 --> 00:04:40.199 obviously busting your chops. But I look forward to that as well as looking 63 00:04:40.240 --> 00:04:45.959 forward to Lancer, which we'll both be participating in this coming year. Although 64 00:04:46.360 --> 00:04:49.639 as it stands right now, I am planning on being there in person to 65 00:04:50.000 --> 00:04:55.480 MC and maybe do some other things, and you may or may not be 66 00:04:55.560 --> 00:04:59.720 there in person. That's still not fully decided, I guess, but looks 67 00:04:59.759 --> 00:05:03.600 like either way you'll be presenting somehow though, whether it's virtually or in person, 68 00:05:03.639 --> 00:05:10.439 you're going to do that and probably participate in the online situation. Maybe 69 00:05:10.839 --> 00:05:14.279 I heard a rumor that you might actually, I don't know, be running 70 00:05:14.319 --> 00:05:17.759 the little Facebook group that they have as the live conference is happening. Something 71 00:05:17.839 --> 00:05:21.839 like that. Maybe I heard wrong. You could tell us later, because 72 00:05:23.000 --> 00:05:27.519 all we know right now is the dates, which coincidentally, speaking of this 73 00:05:27.600 --> 00:05:30.600 day in history, are going to line up rather nicely because it's going to 74 00:05:30.600 --> 00:05:34.199 begin this year on the twenty second, as far as we're planning thus far, 75 00:05:34.720 --> 00:05:39.480 so the weekend of the twenty second, of the twenty fourth in November, 76 00:05:39.519 --> 00:05:43.160 the Lancer Conference will happen, and if you're watching it online or you're 77 00:05:43.160 --> 00:05:47.240 there in person, you'll be suffering through me in person, but you'll get 78 00:05:47.319 --> 00:05:54.079 Larry Hancock either virtually or maybybe we'll have a live connection with you, even 79 00:05:54.240 --> 00:05:58.720 if you're from a remote location. Still to be determined what you're going to 80 00:05:58.759 --> 00:06:03.160 do exactly right. That depends on how early the book is and whether I 81 00:06:03.240 --> 00:06:09.079 survive the publishing. Yeah, one never knows. It's like given birth. 82 00:06:09.160 --> 00:06:13.800 But I've done it a few times now, so I know what's coming up. 83 00:06:15.199 --> 00:06:17.240 Well, there you go. So we will sit in anticipation and see 84 00:06:17.240 --> 00:06:21.199 exactly what participation you'll have. But you will be involved with Lancer this year, 85 00:06:21.680 --> 00:06:25.120 one way or another, so we have that to look forward to. 86 00:06:25.639 --> 00:06:30.800 Only geez, it's about seven months away now. But before we get there, 87 00:06:30.879 --> 00:06:33.360 let's talk about this day in history, just briefly, and of course 88 00:06:33.399 --> 00:06:42.040 only one event April seventeen right now. I hear this reference constantly when people 89 00:06:42.040 --> 00:06:46.680 do podcasts, when people do presentations, documentaries. It is worthy of mention 90 00:06:47.120 --> 00:06:51.519 when you're going to discuss the assassination of John F. Kennedy or the time 91 00:06:51.600 --> 00:06:59.000 period it is a watershed event. Some interesting things occur in the face of 92 00:06:59.040 --> 00:07:01.199 the public, in the public, not the face of the public really, 93 00:07:01.240 --> 00:07:06.079 but in the public's view that quite often didn't used to occur in the public's 94 00:07:06.160 --> 00:07:11.279 view. How would you approach this If somebody's like, look, I've heard 95 00:07:11.319 --> 00:07:14.959 of the Bay of Pigs, but I don't know much think it happened in 96 00:07:15.000 --> 00:07:17.360 Cuba. I heard that once from somebody. I think that happened in Cuba, 97 00:07:17.720 --> 00:07:20.439 and that was the extent of what they had heard about it, not 98 00:07:20.560 --> 00:07:25.399 somebody who was, you know, extremely interested in all of the minutia of 99 00:07:25.439 --> 00:07:30.759 the Kennedy assassination, obviously, but a general kind of introduction, how would 100 00:07:30.759 --> 00:07:34.800 you introduce not only the historical event to someone who might not be read in 101 00:07:34.920 --> 00:07:41.800 on it, but also how would you explain the context as to why it 102 00:07:41.879 --> 00:07:46.600 is of note regarding the assassination, et cetera, et cetera. I mean, 103 00:07:46.639 --> 00:07:53.439 obviously without speculating, just in a very general, pedestrian, easily accessible 104 00:07:53.439 --> 00:07:57.560 way. Larry, what would you say about the Bay of Pigs for somebody 105 00:07:57.600 --> 00:08:03.519 who's only familiar with the freeze? Let's say yeah. I think one of 106 00:08:03.560 --> 00:08:07.600 the problems that we face from a historical standpoint is we we fight the same 107 00:08:07.680 --> 00:08:11.759 problem with the discussion of the Bay of Pigs that we do with the Kennedy 108 00:08:11.800 --> 00:08:16.800 assassination. What is written about both in the history books is very menialist, 109 00:08:18.120 --> 00:08:22.879 minimalist. You often find, you know, a paragraph of you know, 110 00:08:22.040 --> 00:08:30.839 when the assassin app assassination nappened in Dallas Learsrey Oswald the loan Shooter and you're 111 00:08:30.879 --> 00:08:33.639 done. Uh. The same thing goes with the Bay of Pigs. The 112 00:08:33.679 --> 00:08:39.679 Bay of Pigs was essentially a landing of a Cuban force at the Bay of 113 00:08:39.720 --> 00:08:46.240 Pigs in Cuba. Uh. It was a disaster over some three days. 114 00:08:46.840 --> 00:08:54.519 The force was essentially landed successfully and operated for a day day and a half 115 00:08:54.600 --> 00:09:01.799 successfully and then was basically overwhelmed. And it was an immense political disaster for 116 00:09:01.919 --> 00:09:07.120 brand new president President Kennedy. And and when it's talked about, that's the 117 00:09:07.120 --> 00:09:11.320 ways talked about it, sort of like it was. It was Kennedy's first 118 00:09:11.360 --> 00:09:16.519 trial by fire. It was a disaster, you know, And and it 119 00:09:16.600 --> 00:09:20.240 sets a very negative tone for the administration, which which he later came back 120 00:09:20.320 --> 00:09:26.639 with during the Missile crisis. But in the history books, it's it's presented 121 00:09:26.679 --> 00:09:33.000 as a Kennedy disaster based on Kennedy's decision making. Unfortunately, as with a 122 00:09:33.080 --> 00:09:39.200 jfk assassination, which we've learned far more about over the decades, that's not 123 00:09:39.279 --> 00:09:41.840 as simple it is is in the history book, and neither is the bfpis 124 00:09:41.879 --> 00:09:46.200 isn't it right? So let me let me get the story for the ball. 125 00:09:46.279 --> 00:09:48.799 Let me interrupt you. Let me just interrupt you real quick for one 126 00:09:48.840 --> 00:09:54.360 reason only because we require quick snapshots here of two things, uh one, 127 00:09:54.639 --> 00:10:00.639 the event itself. But also let's put into context the idea that in real 128 00:10:00.679 --> 00:10:03.919 time and ever after, according to history, you have the figure of Fidel 129 00:10:05.039 --> 00:10:09.480 Castro, who's a person of interest, clearly somebody that you have to mention 130 00:10:09.559 --> 00:10:13.279 when you're discussing the Cold War in general, et cetera, et cetera. 131 00:10:13.360 --> 00:10:16.639 So it goes far beyond the Kennedy assassination, and you'd have to say that, 132 00:10:16.919 --> 00:10:20.360 you know, regardless of whether it was during those days when the news 133 00:10:20.360 --> 00:10:24.879 reports are happening and Kennedy gives the famous press conference where basically he says, 134 00:10:24.960 --> 00:10:30.200 you know, I'm gonna very badly paraphrase here, the buck stops here. 135 00:10:30.360 --> 00:10:33.759 I'm responsible for this mess, et cetera. He says that in public, 136 00:10:33.919 --> 00:10:39.120 But there's a public and private occurrence here, and it's in the context of 137 00:10:39.320 --> 00:10:43.600 the height of the Cold War, before the Cuban Missile crisis seen as a 138 00:10:43.679 --> 00:10:48.679 victory, you know, for the administration for America in general. So there's 139 00:10:48.720 --> 00:10:52.159 a context of what was going on then and how it has been carried out 140 00:10:52.159 --> 00:10:56.840 through history, as you said, with really not even a full paragraph, 141 00:10:56.919 --> 00:11:01.279 a few sentences in a lot of history books. So you have to kind 142 00:11:01.279 --> 00:11:05.679 of land those two things before you even get into the description, don't you. 143 00:11:07.559 --> 00:11:11.639 Absolutely, And you've got a key point there. It's three days, 144 00:11:11.519 --> 00:11:16.639 and it's always one. It's described is described as the Bay of Pigs land 145 00:11:16.639 --> 00:11:22.279 E's three days, when in essence, the operation was initiated by President at 146 00:11:22.279 --> 00:11:31.399 Eisenhower the year before. The operation is approved and conceived under Eisenhower was nothing 147 00:11:31.480 --> 00:11:37.600 at all similar to what was instituted by the CIA only weeks after JFK had 148 00:11:37.639 --> 00:11:43.279 come into office. But that backstory has never given that nobody ever writes about, 149 00:11:43.360 --> 00:11:48.679 oh, the Bay of Pigs as part of a much longer Cuba project 150 00:11:50.919 --> 00:11:54.720 that had been you know, it's three days, compared to what had actually 151 00:11:54.759 --> 00:12:01.080 been in play for over a year, and without the backstory of how, 152 00:12:01.159 --> 00:12:07.480 what author what Eisenhower had authorized, what came about what Kennedy had authorized, 153 00:12:07.720 --> 00:12:11.360 which was actually nothing at all similar to what actually happened at the Bay of 154 00:12:11.440 --> 00:12:18.759 Pigs. Your left hanging, as we often are with the JFK assassination, 155 00:12:18.960 --> 00:12:22.039 with only a very small part of the story, and I think that that's 156 00:12:22.399 --> 00:12:28.679 one of the things that makes it important. We can learn a lot from 157 00:12:28.039 --> 00:12:35.120 the Bay of Pigs in terms of educating ourselves of how how the sound bites 158 00:12:35.159 --> 00:12:43.759 and the history books are really not helpful for understanding what happened historically. And 159 00:12:43.840 --> 00:12:46.159 if you know, if that's all you ever read, and if that's what 160 00:12:46.240 --> 00:12:52.360 you just repeat, then it's wrong. You're making a mistake. Everybody's making 161 00:12:52.399 --> 00:12:58.799 a mistake. Yet, I will say, sixty three years after the fact, 162 00:12:58.360 --> 00:13:05.240 articles are being written in papers around the nation about the Bay of Pigs, 163 00:13:05.320 --> 00:13:11.759 and they continue to recite a whole set of things that are faults that 164 00:13:11.799 --> 00:13:18.279 we took this quite a while to learn. But there's still it's like they're 165 00:13:18.320 --> 00:13:22.480 repeated year after year after year simply because that was what was said in the 166 00:13:22.480 --> 00:13:26.600 beginning, and it never gets any more accurate, which is is definitely frustrating 167 00:13:26.600 --> 00:13:31.159 for historians and anybody that would really like to understand that, you know, 168 00:13:31.279 --> 00:13:35.240 the real story. But the newspaper, it's easy. They just pick up 169 00:13:35.279 --> 00:13:41.759 the copy and the copy is extremely negative because that's the way people were talking 170 00:13:41.799 --> 00:13:46.039 about it immediately afterwards. Well, and much like you know, any real 171 00:13:46.120 --> 00:13:52.279 time news story. There's also remnants of things that do get retained over time, 172 00:13:52.879 --> 00:13:56.480 like the introduction of Richard Nixon to the conversation, because he was the 173 00:13:56.720 --> 00:14:01.440 uh, you know, the officer of the White House who was given responsibilities 174 00:14:01.440 --> 00:14:07.840 regarding this. According to the very well, what do we call it, 175 00:14:07.919 --> 00:14:13.759 the very sort of condensed version of the historical sound bites, Nixon is the 176 00:14:13.799 --> 00:14:18.120 executive action officer under Eisenhower. He had knowledge of this. He had more 177 00:14:18.159 --> 00:14:20.840 knowledge about it than the president who was being told about it as he's coming 178 00:14:20.879 --> 00:14:26.600 into office, according to well, a lot of reports. So there's some 179 00:14:26.639 --> 00:14:30.639 context here. You got to think about that. This is during that transition 180 00:14:30.799 --> 00:14:35.320 and all of it. But this can get confusing, so let's cut through 181 00:14:35.360 --> 00:14:39.080 that and get to the event itself. Right, we've given a lot of 182 00:14:39.080 --> 00:14:43.279 the context and a lot of the cautionary tales about being careful about what was 183 00:14:43.639 --> 00:14:48.679 recorded in public and real time. What we've been able to learn the arguments 184 00:14:48.679 --> 00:14:50.720 over you know, could he have given air cover? Did he give air 185 00:14:50.759 --> 00:14:54.559 cover? Is that really the thing? Did that build resentment? Put it 186 00:14:54.600 --> 00:14:58.720 all aside, and let's get to the event itself. If you don't mind, 187 00:15:00.399 --> 00:15:05.559 what do you think Larry, is that appropriate. It's appropriate only with 188 00:15:05.679 --> 00:15:11.600 one caveat, and that's the fact that what Kennedy actually authorized was the landing 189 00:15:11.799 --> 00:15:20.360 of a Cuban force inside Cuba. This force had been prepared over some ten 190 00:15:20.440 --> 00:15:26.600 months. Originally it only supposed to was supposed to be a very small group 191 00:15:26.639 --> 00:15:33.039 of people who were highly trained, who would go in and lead a revolution. 192 00:15:33.799 --> 00:15:41.200 There was no way what Eisenhower prewed was in no way resembling what happened 193 00:15:41.480 --> 00:15:43.799 at the Bay of Pigs. And so I think we can talk about what 194 00:15:43.879 --> 00:15:48.919 did happen at the Bay of Pigs, which was a literal D Day style 195 00:15:48.240 --> 00:15:54.000 landing craft, tanks, aircraft, transports, paratroops, was in no way 196 00:15:54.399 --> 00:16:00.960 what was supposed to have happened. It all morphed literally into something brand new 197 00:16:02.559 --> 00:16:07.720 over approximately four months at the very end of the Icenower administration, and Kennedy 198 00:16:07.759 --> 00:16:15.120 basically inherited it and asked some questions about it. It's interesting when Kennedy asked 199 00:16:15.320 --> 00:16:19.960 for a brief and actually asked whether or not the Joint Chiefs of Staff had 200 00:16:19.960 --> 00:16:25.440 approved it as a military action. He was told no, they hadn't, 201 00:16:26.320 --> 00:16:29.960 and he said, well, then send them over the plan and let them 202 00:16:30.000 --> 00:16:32.720 take a look at it. And the answer was, well, there's no 203 00:16:32.840 --> 00:16:36.200 plan, there's no written plan, we have nothing to send them. This 204 00:16:36.279 --> 00:16:38.480 is a denial operation. It's all verbal. Well, okay, go ahead 205 00:16:38.519 --> 00:16:41.879 and brief them. And when you read the documents, it's kind of like 206 00:16:42.240 --> 00:16:48.279 the Joint Chief people are going, we're not even sure. We have to 207 00:16:48.279 --> 00:16:51.240 talk to these people and they're telling these bits and pieces, so we're going 208 00:16:51.320 --> 00:16:55.879 to give you an opinion, but it's not like they've given us a well 209 00:16:55.960 --> 00:17:00.519 thought out plan. And basically all we can tell you is, yeah, 210 00:17:00.559 --> 00:17:03.640 it looks like they will be able to land a force, they'll be able 211 00:17:03.680 --> 00:17:07.960 to put them on the beach, but it absolutely looks like they do not 212 00:17:08.079 --> 00:17:12.039 have a plan in place that would allow them to support them over a long 213 00:17:12.119 --> 00:17:18.240 term, that would allow them logistically to do that support. And by the 214 00:17:18.240 --> 00:17:22.599 way, the Joint Chief's recommendation, which went back to the CIA, said 215 00:17:22.640 --> 00:17:26.680 two things. A, this is not going to work at all, and 216 00:17:26.759 --> 00:17:32.920 the group will literally be wiped out unless there is a massive internal revolution that 217 00:17:33.039 --> 00:17:37.720 happens at the same time as the landing. And B you've got to pull 218 00:17:37.759 --> 00:17:42.480 this off in such a fashion that there are absolutely no Cuban aircraft operating over 219 00:17:42.519 --> 00:17:48.759 the beach that can target those landing ships. Because you're only putting the small 220 00:17:48.839 --> 00:17:52.000 number of ships in there, they're loaded with ammunition and if you don't have 221 00:17:52.079 --> 00:17:57.440 total air control, haul it off. So that just sets you a little 222 00:17:57.480 --> 00:18:03.920 context for what happened and during the next three days after the landing, which 223 00:18:03.000 --> 00:18:08.400 was totally hand violation of all the warnings that the CIA had been given. 224 00:18:10.160 --> 00:18:14.599 Right and again for context, this is beyond because a lot of people just 225 00:18:14.640 --> 00:18:18.279 imagine it as the great invasion that is meant to be Okay, there's an 226 00:18:18.319 --> 00:18:22.880 invasion boom done. The idea here, although there wasn't a formal plan, 227 00:18:23.000 --> 00:18:29.119 it seems like was for a revolution to be sparked. This was meant to 228 00:18:29.160 --> 00:18:34.039 be an inciting incident beyond the invasion, Like the invasion is almost a secondary 229 00:18:34.079 --> 00:18:37.319 thing. It is the landing of the parties there, But what they're supposed 230 00:18:37.319 --> 00:18:45.839 to do is create a popular uprising and that's really the key year. And 231 00:18:45.960 --> 00:18:51.640 yet am I correct in thinking there was no specific plan for doing that from 232 00:18:51.680 --> 00:18:55.599 what we can discern, or is it possible it's actually worse than that, 233 00:18:55.720 --> 00:19:00.119 Chuck, And by the way, for people that I'm not really making this 234 00:19:00.160 --> 00:19:04.079 stuff up. This all came up. There were, as you can imagine, 235 00:19:04.480 --> 00:19:11.400 numerous inquiries, investigations, histories done internally within the CIA, which were 236 00:19:11.799 --> 00:19:18.559 extremely damning to the people in charge within the CIA. But literally in the 237 00:19:18.599 --> 00:19:26.720 month before the landings, the CIA became aware that Castro had essentially rolled up 238 00:19:26.400 --> 00:19:33.519 the major revolutionary groups on the island, had had penetrated them, either killed 239 00:19:33.559 --> 00:19:38.519 their leaders or locked them up, and there were literally thousands of people in 240 00:19:38.640 --> 00:19:42.960 jail at that point that might have helped with the popular revolution, and the 241 00:19:42.960 --> 00:19:48.720 CIA absolutely knew that that was not going to happen, and they did not 242 00:19:48.880 --> 00:19:52.480 even bring it up as an issue to the president. You find we find 243 00:19:52.519 --> 00:19:57.200 that in the transcripts of the meetings. And not only did they not do 244 00:19:57.400 --> 00:20:02.960 that, but the people they had trained over the better part of the year 245 00:20:03.440 --> 00:20:08.119 to infeil trade and lead that sort of revolutionary action were not inserted either. 246 00:20:10.720 --> 00:20:14.720 Even some of the most basic things that you would do, like put these 247 00:20:14.720 --> 00:20:18.599 people in as pathfinders, have them block roads and the interior, blow up 248 00:20:18.640 --> 00:20:23.319 bridges sort of, none of those people were even deployed with the landing. 249 00:20:23.640 --> 00:20:30.640 So, yeah, to answer your question, it's not an overstatement to say 250 00:20:30.680 --> 00:20:37.640 that the major part of the plan, which relied upon an internal revolution. 251 00:20:37.759 --> 00:20:42.440 In fact, the plan even called for sending in hundreds of thousands of rounds 252 00:20:42.440 --> 00:20:48.400 of ammunition to support this revolution. It was not even that the picture at 253 00:20:48.440 --> 00:20:56.359 the time of the landings, and the CI officer in charge, Richards Bissel 254 00:20:56.440 --> 00:21:00.279 and Tracy Barnes, knew that and were aware of it, weren't telling anybody 255 00:21:00.480 --> 00:21:06.480 well. In fact, one of the leading figures that was imagined to basically 256 00:21:06.559 --> 00:21:11.960 take over if Castro's overthrown, at least one of them was not even in 257 00:21:11.079 --> 00:21:15.640 the country or near the country at the time, which I find interesting. 258 00:21:17.079 --> 00:21:21.799 But here's the thing the post wortem get asked on that note, Chuck, 259 00:21:21.880 --> 00:21:27.519 just to expand on that. Sure, the CIA actually locked up all of 260 00:21:27.559 --> 00:21:33.880 the major revolutionary leaders that were inside the United States. That again, you 261 00:21:33.920 --> 00:21:37.079 would expect, you know, if this is going to be a popular revolution, 262 00:21:37.640 --> 00:21:42.240 you've got to have people at the Cuban populace identifies with, recognizes, 263 00:21:42.799 --> 00:21:45.880 you know, participating with this. You'd even you don't want them on to 264 00:21:45.880 --> 00:21:49.640 be you want you want them there. No, they're all locked up in 265 00:21:49.680 --> 00:21:55.880 a hotel room in Miami because somebody's concerned that they're going to talk and give 266 00:21:55.920 --> 00:22:02.119 away the operation, right and the mortem. One last note on the post 267 00:22:02.160 --> 00:22:07.640 mortem, and is often pointed to, is that this leads to they often 268 00:22:07.680 --> 00:22:11.160 say, oh, he fired the head of the CIA and various other people, 269 00:22:11.200 --> 00:22:14.759 et cetera. We know those names, we know who they were. 270 00:22:15.240 --> 00:22:19.759 But Kennedy didn't fire them. He asked for their resignations and got them. 271 00:22:21.319 --> 00:22:25.680 Uh. Key figure, their biggest name, key figure anyway, who plays 272 00:22:25.680 --> 00:22:30.559 a role later on in this entire narrative and even into the assassination and into 273 00:22:30.599 --> 00:22:33.759 the days of the Warren Commission, Alan Dullas Uh. Not only that, 274 00:22:33.920 --> 00:22:38.519 but the brother of the mayor of Dallas, you know who as a CIA 275 00:22:38.599 --> 00:22:42.160 building named after him. When you're leaving town, which I noted walking to 276 00:22:42.200 --> 00:22:48.039 the greyhound station in Dallas. You know Cavell, all right, you got 277 00:22:48.039 --> 00:22:52.079 you got Earl Cabll and Charles Cavell. Charles, Uh, somebody who is 278 00:22:52.200 --> 00:22:59.119 involved with the CIA seemingly asked to offer a resignation along with Dallas and some 279 00:22:59.200 --> 00:23:03.119 others. But he's got a building named after him, a CIA building in 280 00:23:03.200 --> 00:23:08.319 Dallas, right there on that same strip where the Greyhound bus station is I 281 00:23:08.359 --> 00:23:11.880 noted that because I took a look up and realized I was standing in front 282 00:23:11.920 --> 00:23:17.400 of the Charles cabll CIA building. And that's part of the story as well. 283 00:23:17.519 --> 00:23:21.640 But often one of the things that people focus on that takes us away 284 00:23:21.680 --> 00:23:25.640 from the historical event a little bit. But is significant or what do you 285 00:23:25.680 --> 00:23:30.759 think? I think it's significant only that you know, nobody ever asked the 286 00:23:30.880 --> 00:23:41.079 question. Nobody really explores what Dulles or Cabell or what the officers did or 287 00:23:41.119 --> 00:23:45.519 didn't do. The discussion is always in terms of Kennedy. You know, 288 00:23:45.839 --> 00:23:52.279 what did Kennedy do or not do the which means the only blame for the 289 00:23:52.319 --> 00:23:57.680 whole thing is placed on Kennedy. There really is no discussion. You read 290 00:23:57.720 --> 00:24:06.079 a biography of Dallas, or you read something about now there's nothing in there 291 00:24:06.119 --> 00:24:11.599 about oh associated with the disaster at the bay. You know it's missing. 292 00:24:11.759 --> 00:24:15.480 So to me, it's just it's a missing just another part of the missing 293 00:24:15.519 --> 00:24:21.440 piece of the puzzle that didn't get any discussions. And if if you actually 294 00:24:21.559 --> 00:24:29.000 read the historical reports, the CIA historical reports or the commission that studied the 295 00:24:29.039 --> 00:24:32.960 Bay of Pigs, you would see what these people didn't do and it's just 296 00:24:33.440 --> 00:24:38.519 it's amazing what they didn't do. Actually, Kennedy was more than graceful and 297 00:24:38.960 --> 00:24:45.119 simply offering to let them resign, both of them. If they had been 298 00:24:45.119 --> 00:24:48.759 in the military and you looked at what they did and what they didn't do, 299 00:24:51.400 --> 00:24:56.519 would have been court martial offenses dereliction of duty. I mean, there 300 00:24:56.559 --> 00:25:02.359 is just absolutely no doubt about it. Cabbell give an example in that regard. 301 00:25:03.119 --> 00:25:07.400 Kennedy authorized a whole bunch of things that are never talked about during the 302 00:25:07.480 --> 00:25:12.720 three days of the landings that he had said no to before and when it 303 00:25:12.759 --> 00:25:19.160 became clear how bad things were going on the beach head. He authorized air 304 00:25:19.200 --> 00:25:26.400 strikes by American pilots which he had initially ordered not to happen. He authorized 305 00:25:26.759 --> 00:25:30.960 air drops by Air Force aircraft, and Cabell was supposed to take care of 306 00:25:32.000 --> 00:25:41.279 that and did not. It's just amazing. Kennedy authorizes first on day two, 307 00:25:41.599 --> 00:25:45.880 but actually day one, day two air strikes by American pilots flying B 308 00:25:45.000 --> 00:25:51.599 twenty six aircraft, and then he authorizes air cover from the Navy, and 309 00:25:51.640 --> 00:25:56.240 the Navy screwed up both of them. They got their timing wrong, communications 310 00:25:56.319 --> 00:26:00.680 wrong. They weren't even using the same frequency as the landing force was. 311 00:26:02.279 --> 00:26:07.720 It's just but the fact is, on the anniversary, none of that will 312 00:26:07.759 --> 00:26:14.160 ever be discussed by anybody except here, because it will all be a regurgitation 313 00:26:14.400 --> 00:26:21.519 of Kennedy's, you know, failure of decisiveness somehow because he didn't go ahead 314 00:26:21.920 --> 00:26:26.039 in order a full military invasion of Cuba. Well, and that's the way 315 00:26:26.079 --> 00:26:32.279 it stands. So how is it we should interpret this, put this in 316 00:26:32.319 --> 00:26:37.160 its right context the event itself. Let's go into that. I mean, 317 00:26:37.640 --> 00:26:40.119 do we need to get into the reference. I mean, we've mentioned the 318 00:26:40.200 --> 00:26:47.559 landing good The simple explanation is that this whole broad checkt was not run by 319 00:26:48.200 --> 00:26:53.440 Dulles, It was not run Buck Cabell. It was really run by Tracy 320 00:26:53.519 --> 00:26:59.960 Barnes and Richard Bissel. These were the two senior operations officers that were given 321 00:27:00.079 --> 00:27:03.839 the project. And it's a very unusual organizational thing within the CIA. In 322 00:27:03.880 --> 00:27:10.519 fact, it received heavy criticism because it was not the way they normally did 323 00:27:10.559 --> 00:27:14.960 things. But these guys were given the mission because they had been in charge 324 00:27:14.960 --> 00:27:21.160 of a very successful overthrow of our bents in Guatemala years before, and they 325 00:27:21.240 --> 00:27:25.599 were felt to be the best on hand for you know, regime change. 326 00:27:26.839 --> 00:27:33.680 They got into this and basically for the better part of eight months, Barnes 327 00:27:33.759 --> 00:27:41.759 and Bissell put together a you know what was supposed to be an infiltration program 328 00:27:41.559 --> 00:27:48.519 land people in Cuba take leadership role of these revolutionary groups, and the whole 329 00:27:48.559 --> 00:27:52.680 thing was actually, you mentioned Richard Nixon, The whole thing was supposed to 330 00:27:52.720 --> 00:28:00.240 result in the overthrow of Castro before the elections, and Nixon would have a 331 00:28:00.279 --> 00:28:03.599 shoe in the Icenower administration would have had a very victory. Actually, both 332 00:28:03.839 --> 00:28:11.440 Icenower and Nixon were appalled when they found out that nothing was on schedule and 333 00:28:11.480 --> 00:28:15.519 nothing had happened in the way that they had been promised. Was an immense 334 00:28:15.559 --> 00:28:22.559 shock to them. And at that point in time, since the first caught 335 00:28:22.640 --> 00:28:26.920 Plan one, if you will, Plan one clearly was way too late. 336 00:28:27.720 --> 00:28:33.039 Castro had managed to arm him self far better. The Soviets were beginning to 337 00:28:33.039 --> 00:28:38.880 ship in everything up to jet fighters. They did a quick reset and built 338 00:28:38.920 --> 00:28:45.880 an entirely new plan and trained an entirely new force. Over some four months 339 00:28:47.640 --> 00:28:56.640 October November December January, they totally shifted the plan to this full scale invasion 340 00:28:56.960 --> 00:29:03.680 with landing craft and tanks and heavy weapons groups and paratroopers, which was totally 341 00:29:03.720 --> 00:29:07.799 different than what it had been. This was all essentially a kind of a 342 00:29:07.799 --> 00:29:14.880 hail Mary, with Bistol and Barnes recrafting the whole thing into something that might 343 00:29:15.000 --> 00:29:18.240 work and at least stood a chance so they didn't have to admit, you 344 00:29:18.279 --> 00:29:22.559 know, back off and admit failure. And one of the things we see 345 00:29:22.559 --> 00:29:29.000 in the documentations when Kennedy took over again and again, he asked Biscile if 346 00:29:29.000 --> 00:29:32.279 he just wanted to drop the whole thing, like it looks like this is 347 00:29:32.319 --> 00:29:36.920 really challenging, looks like they're real issues. The joint chiefs have some problems, 348 00:29:37.279 --> 00:29:41.480 you know, just tell me no and it's okay, we'll we'll back 349 00:29:41.519 --> 00:29:45.440 off it. And they would not do that. Bisil and Barnes would not 350 00:29:45.519 --> 00:29:48.240 do that. In fact, really the upshot in what kind of wraps it 351 00:29:48.359 --> 00:29:56.559 all together is decades after the fact, a very good author and reporter showed 352 00:29:56.160 --> 00:30:06.519 documents that discuss this whole process to the two actual military officers who who were 353 00:30:06.599 --> 00:30:08.960 in charge of the Cubans, who were in charge with you know, field 354 00:30:10.079 --> 00:30:15.359 operations with Cubans, Hawkins and the Easter Line, and they showed them to 355 00:30:15.440 --> 00:30:21.880 them, including what Kennedy had been told, what he had not been told, 356 00:30:22.079 --> 00:30:26.359 what commitments, et cetera. And their immediate reaction was Bistle was lined 357 00:30:26.359 --> 00:30:30.400 to Kennedy and he was lined to us at the same time. You know, 358 00:30:30.480 --> 00:30:34.279 we we don't know what in the world was in his head, but 359 00:30:34.519 --> 00:30:41.079 you know, these guys had walked into Bissele's home and said they were resigning 360 00:30:41.359 --> 00:30:47.880 weeks before the landing because the whole thing was nonsense unless they got, you 361 00:30:47.880 --> 00:30:53.119 know, major extensive support, more aircraft, more air raids, and Bistle 362 00:30:53.200 --> 00:31:00.880 persuaded them, I'm sorry, Bissell persuaded them not to resign and he would 363 00:31:00.960 --> 00:31:06.279 go to Kennedy and get what they needed, absolutely committed to them. What 364 00:31:06.400 --> 00:31:10.680 we now know he did was to go to Kennedy and actually cut the request 365 00:31:10.799 --> 00:31:14.480 for air power right now, even yes, sorry, day of the land 366 00:31:14.559 --> 00:31:18.640 date, you refuse to argue for more air strikes right now. Look, 367 00:31:18.839 --> 00:31:21.599 this is a key thing, and just for in the show notes, you'll 368 00:31:21.599 --> 00:31:26.559 see that I've provided some references to the JFK Library about the Bay of Pigs 369 00:31:26.599 --> 00:31:32.039 and also THECIA dot Gov's official story about this. Why do I present this 370 00:31:32.119 --> 00:31:34.720 because after we study documentation and go through a whole bunch of things. As 371 00:31:34.839 --> 00:31:38.680 Larry is describing, you find that, you know, the story that is 372 00:31:38.799 --> 00:31:45.920 generally told, not unfairly but in an incomplete fashion, is that Kennedy was 373 00:31:45.000 --> 00:31:51.200 misled regarding this. But it seems as though so was Nixon, so were 374 00:31:51.359 --> 00:31:55.960 other members of the CIA, so were military. It seems as though there 375 00:31:56.039 --> 00:32:00.160 was a whole lot of misleading going on here, and it was done, 376 00:32:01.039 --> 00:32:06.200 what I can read, with the intention of causing people to have to react, 377 00:32:07.039 --> 00:32:10.200 to add more things into the mix, to add more resources, more 378 00:32:10.240 --> 00:32:16.039 reactions in real time because they would sort of be cornered into doing so. 379 00:32:16.920 --> 00:32:22.559 And you presented it or the people that were in charge presented it as something 380 00:32:22.559 --> 00:32:24.880 that was well taken care of. But at the same time, it goes 381 00:32:24.920 --> 00:32:30.839 further because, as you said, Kennedy authorizes some things, others might have 382 00:32:30.920 --> 00:32:34.799 authorized some things, and then these guys don't even take advantage of that, 383 00:32:34.839 --> 00:32:38.799 which could have been helpful to the overall plan, which again on paper, 384 00:32:38.880 --> 00:32:42.960 was an incomplete plan. But somebody had to a bad an idea in mind 385 00:32:42.960 --> 00:32:45.279 here. I mean, I'm sure they didn't just throw it at the wall 386 00:32:45.319 --> 00:32:47.400 and say, let's see what happens. I'm sure it'll turn out good, 387 00:32:49.200 --> 00:32:51.440 you know. To take it to the street level. I'm sorry, Larry, 388 00:32:51.440 --> 00:32:54.799 but I mean that's the story that's emerging here. A great concrete example 389 00:32:54.920 --> 00:33:02.720 that it's not that we don't have unfortunate The Cubans, who were awesome fighters 390 00:33:02.880 --> 00:33:09.319 and did everything they possibly could after having been landed, were not aware they 391 00:33:10.160 --> 00:33:15.039 had not been told the full story, partially because the sea officers had not 392 00:33:15.119 --> 00:33:20.519 been told in charge of them hadn't been told the full story either. Give 393 00:33:20.640 --> 00:33:24.599 a very simple example, Graceton Lynch, who was one of the leaders at 394 00:33:24.599 --> 00:33:31.079 the landing, actually the American leader at the landing, and went in with 395 00:33:31.599 --> 00:33:37.599 the group, wrote a book which was a very good book in terms of 396 00:33:37.680 --> 00:33:42.720 what he understood was supposed to happen, which we now know was in no 397 00:33:42.880 --> 00:33:49.640 way what Kennedy had authorized. But just a very simple example is Kennedy had 398 00:33:49.680 --> 00:33:54.599 given a direct, explicit order that in terms of dying deniability, the whole 399 00:33:54.680 --> 00:34:00.680 landing had to be accomplished in darkness, and that all the ships, the 400 00:34:00.759 --> 00:34:07.759 landing ships, supply ships, troop ships, everything would be outside of Cuban 401 00:34:07.039 --> 00:34:15.639 Cuba's national waters by daybreak, which from his standpoint would make you know, 402 00:34:15.840 --> 00:34:19.199 we're just here to land these people. We insert them. If things go 403 00:34:19.320 --> 00:34:22.679 wrong, they'll go guerrilla, which he had been promised, and they weren't 404 00:34:22.719 --> 00:34:29.679 trained for work for But it's at that standard because everybody knew that the ships 405 00:34:29.719 --> 00:34:34.639 could be setting ducks for the Cuban Air Force if anybody had if they had 406 00:34:34.639 --> 00:34:37.239 survived, which by the way, Bissel knew that a good part of the 407 00:34:37.239 --> 00:34:43.440 Cuban Air Force was still operational. Okay, those ships were the ones that 408 00:34:43.480 --> 00:34:49.159 were hit by the Cuban aircraft exploded, The main ammunition carrier exploded, the 409 00:34:49.239 --> 00:34:52.239 others fled for their lives and their captains refused to ever bring them back to 410 00:34:52.280 --> 00:34:58.840 the beachhead. That the ships were not run by the brigade itself. They 411 00:34:58.880 --> 00:35:05.039 were commercial ships that had been volunteered by the Cuban owner of a fleet of 412 00:35:05.079 --> 00:35:08.239 ships. They were not really they were just brought in separate from the brigade. 413 00:35:08.280 --> 00:35:13.239 But said in his book, it's sort of like no, nobody, 414 00:35:13.599 --> 00:35:17.000 nobody, no. We never expected that we could have the landing done by 415 00:35:17.119 --> 00:35:22.639 daylight. That was never part of the plan. We had tanks to unload, 416 00:35:22.159 --> 00:35:28.239 we had trucks to armored, trucks to unload heavy weapons. It's insane. 417 00:35:28.719 --> 00:35:35.840 No nobody ever mentioned that to us, yet the president's directive was explicit 418 00:35:35.920 --> 00:35:39.960 that that was to happen, So that there's a whole breakdown between what Kennedy 419 00:35:40.199 --> 00:35:49.960 set as requirements what the officers in the field were expecting. It just it 420 00:35:50.559 --> 00:35:55.280 was an operational nightmare as far as command and control goes, right, And 421 00:35:55.360 --> 00:36:01.079 it's a back and forth of people not informing whether they're in charge not in 422 00:36:01.159 --> 00:36:05.320 charge. On the ground, they're simply not being informed the whole way. 423 00:36:05.440 --> 00:36:12.000 This complete ball of miscommunication, which you know, I'm assuming the majority of 424 00:36:12.000 --> 00:36:15.800 it is intentional. I guess you could put some of it off on the 425 00:36:15.840 --> 00:36:20.079 incompetence side of the board. But I mean, honestly, it seems as 426 00:36:20.119 --> 00:36:23.199 though it's intentional in order to cause certain events to occur. And I don't 427 00:36:23.239 --> 00:36:28.679 think failure was the thing that anybody involved had in mind. I don't think 428 00:36:28.760 --> 00:36:32.760 there was an intentional failure here. This was meant something else, Chuck. 429 00:36:32.800 --> 00:36:42.000 And here's what really clouds that question. We have learned only relatively recently that 430 00:36:42.119 --> 00:36:46.880 Bissell had three different things going that might have changed this whole picture. At 431 00:36:46.880 --> 00:36:52.039 first, something we did know about before. He had an assassination plot and 432 00:36:52.119 --> 00:36:59.599 played a poison Castro which almost worked, and then another assassination plot to take 433 00:36:59.679 --> 00:37:05.280 him out with a sniper team. If you taken cast Her out of the 434 00:37:05.320 --> 00:37:08.719 equation, it would have been entirely different theme. Bisil Bisil, I mean, 435 00:37:08.760 --> 00:37:13.599 only half a dozen people knew about these things, and Bisil was the 436 00:37:13.639 --> 00:37:16.920 one running them. The other thing was that they had they had used the 437 00:37:17.039 --> 00:37:25.880 Navy base at Guantanamo to move in a massive amount of explosives and into stage 438 00:37:27.639 --> 00:37:32.519 what can only be interpreted as a false flag attack on Guantanamo. If that 439 00:37:32.679 --> 00:37:40.079 had happened and the Navy had inter intervened to defend Guantanamo massively, it would 440 00:37:40.079 --> 00:37:44.800 have been all over. Because the third thing we know is that Bissile had 441 00:37:44.840 --> 00:37:51.440 made an arrangement with the commander of the Atlantic Fleet to put a carrier task 442 00:37:51.480 --> 00:37:57.599 group off of Cuba that nobody told Kennedy about. This was a massive task 443 00:37:57.679 --> 00:38:02.119 force. And if if Guantana had indeed been attacked in a false flag and 444 00:38:02.239 --> 00:38:08.039 that carrier group in deploy had been activated by the admiral who said he was 445 00:38:08.199 --> 00:38:13.480 in his notes which I've read, said he's totally prepared to do this. 446 00:38:14.199 --> 00:38:17.679 Then it would have been over in three days. The Navy jet. The 447 00:38:17.800 --> 00:38:25.159 Navy jets were equipped with everything they needed, including air to ground weaponry, 448 00:38:25.519 --> 00:38:30.840 to take out the entire Castro military. Just to make about this, in 449 00:38:31.440 --> 00:38:37.000 the interest of absolute clarity, just to get this very straight, there is 450 00:38:37.400 --> 00:38:43.239 a group of assets sitting off of the shores of Cuba, of US assets 451 00:38:43.760 --> 00:38:51.920 fully prepared to back militarily to launch further attacks, prepared sitting there waiting. 452 00:38:52.199 --> 00:38:55.039 We did not know about this until very recently. In my mind, I 453 00:38:55.039 --> 00:38:59.679 don't think historians knew it. It was not part of the general conversation. 454 00:39:00.559 --> 00:39:05.360 Is that true or false? That is true, and it only was revealed 455 00:39:05.360 --> 00:39:12.039 to us by like a couple of articles and Navy populate publications, the oral 456 00:39:12.239 --> 00:39:19.320 history written by this admiral, and a couple of comments from people serving in 457 00:39:19.360 --> 00:39:24.960 the ships that had come up over time. Even even the command ship for 458 00:39:25.880 --> 00:39:30.159 the landing force. Okay, this one, Kennedy knew it was out there 459 00:39:30.280 --> 00:39:36.559 the carrier Essex. Later years later, people on the ship you know, 460 00:39:36.679 --> 00:39:45.000 personnel were commenting. One of the things surprising is that a group of carrier 461 00:39:45.320 --> 00:39:50.280 ground attack aircraft, including all the weapons that they needed for a large scale 462 00:39:50.280 --> 00:39:58.320 ground attack campaign had been loaded on that ship offshore very covertly. Now, 463 00:39:58.400 --> 00:40:04.199 if you look at what Kennedy had authorized, there's no way that US Navy 464 00:40:04.320 --> 00:40:09.559 jets were ever going to be ordered or allowed to conduct, you know, 465 00:40:09.760 --> 00:40:15.159 ground attacks across Cuba with those kind of weapons. So somebody had that in 466 00:40:15.280 --> 00:40:21.559 mind. I would propose Bissile had it in mind. So I'm just inserting 467 00:40:21.599 --> 00:40:27.679 this to say, you know, things that look intentional as versus stupid may 468 00:40:27.719 --> 00:40:31.280 not be quite as wild if certainly these other things had happened. You know, 469 00:40:31.320 --> 00:40:37.800 these are wild cards that Bissole had in his pocket. None of them 470 00:40:37.880 --> 00:40:45.440 worked for different reasons. But is that what made him make stupid mistakes because 471 00:40:45.440 --> 00:40:50.960 he thought he still had cards to play? I have no idea. What 472 00:40:51.039 --> 00:40:57.000 I do know is that even the night that the landing group was launched, 473 00:40:57.400 --> 00:41:07.920 that it sailed, he and Cabelle were given the opportunity to talk to Kennedy 474 00:41:07.800 --> 00:41:13.239 and argue for more air attacks, and they chose not to do so. 475 00:41:14.079 --> 00:41:16.800 And when someone asked him, well, you know, is this not dangerous, 476 00:41:16.840 --> 00:41:20.280 and he said, well, the only thing I would have been able 477 00:41:20.320 --> 00:41:24.320 to tell the president is you know, there is a possibility that we could 478 00:41:24.320 --> 00:41:30.159 have lost, you know, ships in the landing group. Wait a minute, 479 00:41:30.760 --> 00:41:35.360 that's all the ships you got, you don't have anymore. That's all 480 00:41:35.440 --> 00:41:38.320 the ammunition you've got. There are no plans to resupply any of that. 481 00:41:38.639 --> 00:41:43.440 If you lose it, it's all over. He's a smart guy. He 482 00:41:43.559 --> 00:41:47.679 knows that. So it's like one of the dumbest answers you could possibly expect. 483 00:41:49.519 --> 00:41:53.159 Is that because he knew more? Or is it because he just was 484 00:41:53.239 --> 00:41:58.800 so egotistical? Or you know, is he a person who thinks that he's 485 00:41:58.920 --> 00:42:02.320 always going to win? I don't know. And you do go into a 486 00:42:02.320 --> 00:42:07.920 deep discussion of this in the book In Denial, correct, because yes, 487 00:42:07.280 --> 00:42:13.159 and just forth and all those elements, including the other carrier group and the 488 00:42:13.199 --> 00:42:19.000 false flag and yeah, the other things they may have had play right. 489 00:42:19.079 --> 00:42:22.920 All of this is described in detail in the book In Denial, secret wars 490 00:42:22.960 --> 00:42:25.599 with air strikes and tanks, which I'm also going to provide you guys the 491 00:42:25.679 --> 00:42:29.920 link to. And as a matter of fact, as we go to a 492 00:42:29.960 --> 00:42:32.000 break here, because I want to take a break for a moment, let 493 00:42:32.039 --> 00:42:39.360 people digest this. That the assets to further this entire circumstance were available, 494 00:42:39.800 --> 00:42:46.199 but due to miscommunications and some unknown factors were not implemented, we're not utilized. 495 00:42:46.719 --> 00:42:50.400 And what do we end up with at the end. Well, we're 496 00:42:50.400 --> 00:42:53.719 going to find out about that from Larry Hancock after we take a little break. 497 00:42:53.920 --> 00:42:57.559 But in the meantime, you can always study for yourself by going and 498 00:42:57.599 --> 00:43:00.039 picking up IRI's book, checking out some of the articles that I'm going to 499 00:43:00.079 --> 00:43:06.519 attach to these show notes and all of that, because further study is necessary 500 00:43:06.559 --> 00:43:12.920 here regarding this event that is given short shrip by most documentary filmmakers, podcasters, 501 00:43:13.239 --> 00:43:16.039 and even authors about John F. Kennedy, whether they're talking about the 502 00:43:16.079 --> 00:43:27.119 assassination or simply the administration. Either way, This is James Corvin at coorb 503 00:43:27.199 --> 00:43:30.679 report dot com and you're listening to the O'Kelly affected O'Kelly dot com. In 504 00:43:30.880 --> 00:43:37.480 Denial Secret Wars with air strikes and tanks by Larry Hancock. Secret wars became 505 00:43:37.519 --> 00:43:43.599 a staple of US covert operations and are still happening today. Larry Hancock's book 506 00:43:43.679 --> 00:43:46.800 In Denial rips the cover off many of them, using new files. It 507 00:43:46.880 --> 00:43:51.920 exposes things about the Bay of Pigs that no one has ever written about before. 508 00:43:52.360 --> 00:43:55.119 It shows why it really failed and why the United States did not earn 509 00:43:55.239 --> 00:44:00.239 from it. It also shows why other countries today are doing operations with more 510 00:44:00.360 --> 00:44:06.000 success. This is the book that puts what some want to deny into the 511 00:44:06.159 --> 00:44:13.119 light. In Denial Secret Wars with air strikes and tanks Larry Hancock. For 512 00:44:13.280 --> 00:44:16.920 more information, go to larryheiphen Handcock dot com. Pick up your copy of 513 00:44:17.000 --> 00:44:24.920 In Denial at Amazon dot com in digital or physical form. The War State 514 00:44:25.000 --> 00:44:30.679 by Michael Swanson explains the great national transformation that took place and put the Kennedy 515 00:44:30.760 --> 00:44:35.880 presidency in the context of the times and reveals never before published information about the 516 00:44:35.960 --> 00:44:39.239 Cuban missile crisis. President Kennedy would not have been assassinated if he had been 517 00:44:39.320 --> 00:44:44.840 president two hundred years ago. His assassination took place in the context of the 518 00:44:44.920 --> 00:44:47.960 Cold War and the rise of the national security state. Before World War II, 519 00:44:49.159 --> 00:44:52.880 the United States was a continental republic. In the decade that followed, 520 00:44:52.960 --> 00:44:57.679 it became an imperial superpower. Generals such as Curtis LeMay not only wanted to 521 00:44:57.760 --> 00:45:00.639 invade Cuba, but knew that there were short range missiles on the island armed 522 00:45:00.639 --> 00:45:05.800 with nuclear warheads. That they could not destroy because they were on mobile launchers. 523 00:45:05.960 --> 00:45:09.039 Their invasion could have led to a Third World War, and they wanted 524 00:45:09.079 --> 00:45:14.480 to go to war anyway. The War State by Michael Swanson reveals why, 525 00:45:14.679 --> 00:45:17.079 and we'll show you what President Kennedy was up against. For more information, 526 00:45:17.480 --> 00:45:22.599 The Warstate dot com. Oh cool. Do you remember that time when Benjamin 527 00:45:22.719 --> 00:45:28.000 Fulford said that an Asian secret society was going to dispatch ninja's to take down 528 00:45:28.039 --> 00:45:32.159 the Illuminati? Ooh that's interesting, Yeah in the clatchoon? Yeah did that 529 00:45:32.239 --> 00:45:37.639 ever work out too good? No? It didn't, did it? But 530 00:45:37.800 --> 00:45:40.639 here on o'chelly dot com radio network things work out a bit better, don't 531 00:45:40.639 --> 00:45:46.320 they? Much better? Much money is clear and understanding about the programs, 532 00:45:46.840 --> 00:45:53.159 the programs, how much clearer getting live people into it. They really have 533 00:45:53.320 --> 00:45:58.960 a good conversation going much better, much better scene. I say, forget 534 00:45:59.079 --> 00:46:02.800 Benjamin Fullford than his ninjas and listen to the ochelly dot com radio network. 535 00:46:04.039 --> 00:46:07.119 I agree, it's straight to the point, straight talk, and I like 536 00:46:07.239 --> 00:46:12.119 that idea. O Cholly dot com, This world get you down? Are 537 00:46:12.159 --> 00:46:15.039 you living your bliss? Tired of therapies that don't offer you any real direction? 538 00:46:15.199 --> 00:46:20.079 Or answers. Did you know that Maria does personal life coaching sessions? 539 00:46:20.519 --> 00:46:23.559 Save thousands of therapy dollars and get the direction and answers you need to live 540 00:46:23.599 --> 00:46:28.760 an authentic life based on your own personal blueprint for this life. All this 541 00:46:29.000 --> 00:46:32.199 typically in just one private session with Maria, not countless hours on a couch. 542 00:46:32.800 --> 00:46:37.760 Maria combines her professional experience, life experience, and her heredity into inted 543 00:46:37.800 --> 00:46:43.480 gifts to get you back on track. Email Maria today for an appointment at 544 00:46:43.559 --> 00:46:46.639 Maria at Maria dot nette. That's m E R I A at me eri 545 00:46:46.719 --> 00:46:51.039 i A dot net. Get on with the best life you can possibly have. 546 00:46:51.559 --> 00:46:53.920 Check out the other side of this happy, loving, passionate woman at 547 00:46:54.119 --> 00:47:00.679 www dot Maria Heller dot com and amail yourself of the best coaching and I'll 548 00:47:00.760 --> 00:47:05.280 in the privacy of your home via the telephone, gift yourself with yourself. 549 00:47:05.679 --> 00:47:12.119 Make an appointment today bright Maria at Maria that bet if you was expressed my 550 00:47:12.159 --> 00:47:14.719 caller stools there anyone else who happens to get on the air of Jelly dot 551 00:47:14.760 --> 00:47:17.079 com. Do not necessarily reflect he views little Jelly dot com ord Jumbo Jelly, 552 00:47:17.199 --> 00:47:21.039 and we are not responsible for getting stupidity, which might have students thank 553 00:47:21.039 --> 00:47:32.239 you revelation through conversation, let them know, let know no doubt, to 554 00:47:32.440 --> 00:47:38.559 let them know I'm a real shock luck and tear rocks with the bullet out 555 00:47:38.719 --> 00:47:45.280 of the drug show. I'm bringing all shot block and tear rocks of the 556 00:47:45.440 --> 00:47:50.920 bullet lout at the drug shows. The ah we just met that the world's 557 00:47:51.000 --> 00:47:55.800 worst professional propocket tool took them like it's two thousands something and Bucker's back on 558 00:47:57.039 --> 00:48:01.559 tool. You never really wanted me anyway. Alcohol turns me into your enemies. 559 00:48:01.800 --> 00:48:06.599 I go some of me sad with some highnessy. I used to think 560 00:48:06.719 --> 00:48:09.920 that bottle was the remedy picked it up once or twice after I let it 561 00:48:10.039 --> 00:48:14.519 go, but finally had to let it be. I used to roll over 562 00:48:14.639 --> 00:48:19.199 the fat there she would have given me a lett timpers and literacy, I 563 00:48:19.280 --> 00:48:29.599 mean literally, I figure, I mean the letter. They all want chances 564 00:48:29.760 --> 00:48:35.199 meet, except as chances to learn the let it go. We learned the 565 00:48:35.360 --> 00:48:55.480 letter go, oh it take. I think the Tokaa have a couple of 566 00:48:55.599 --> 00:49:02.760 years. The Toka fair flows how in the stay Sober without Sandford Oh Chili 567 00:49:02.960 --> 00:49:22.119 dot com Yeah, and finishing out this Wednesday edition of The Ocell Effect discussing 568 00:49:22.360 --> 00:49:25.039 the Bay of Pigs, which happened on this day, April seventeenth, in 569 00:49:25.400 --> 00:49:31.639 nineteen sixty one. Okay, but it is currently April seventeen, twenty twenty 570 00:49:31.800 --> 00:49:36.599 four, according to all those things called calendars. And yeah, the Bay 571 00:49:36.639 --> 00:49:39.440 of Pigs invasion. Again, it happened on this day. It began on 572 00:49:39.519 --> 00:49:45.079 this day, but it went on for a while too, the invasion itself, 573 00:49:45.159 --> 00:49:49.039 as Larry points out, the planning, and we've discussed what was happening 574 00:49:49.239 --> 00:49:52.880 in the time of the invasion, in the time of the landing, whatever 575 00:49:52.920 --> 00:49:57.199 it is you want to call it. But now I think it's appropriate to 576 00:49:57.280 --> 00:50:00.559 get to, well, what was the end result, what actually occurred at 577 00:50:00.599 --> 00:50:05.159 the end, despite the fact that there's a battle group waiting to join in, 578 00:50:05.360 --> 00:50:08.199 despite the fact that the President didn't authorize that it's sitting and waiting. 579 00:50:08.280 --> 00:50:14.360 There's many things about what the president authorized, what he didn't authorize, what 580 00:50:14.679 --> 00:50:17.440 was going on. But okay, Larry, how does this event shake out? 581 00:50:19.199 --> 00:50:22.480 And let's talk about the aftermath if you don't mind what is it. 582 00:50:22.519 --> 00:50:24.760 People need to take a hof about the conclusion and then, as you say, 583 00:50:24.840 --> 00:50:30.840 the aftermath, because it's it's really two different things. Yes. Unfortunately, 584 00:50:30.920 --> 00:50:36.920 the way it ended was Kennedy had in all the planning sessions, the 585 00:50:37.000 --> 00:50:44.239 discussions with the admirals with Bissel, Kennedy had insisted that if for some reason 586 00:50:44.800 --> 00:50:50.880 the landing failed, that there'd be a plan for the Navy to evacuate and 587 00:50:51.039 --> 00:50:55.159 reland the force, because, in Kennedy's mind, again, the national directive 588 00:50:55.239 --> 00:51:00.960 he'd getten given was simply to land a Cuban force in Cuba and let them 589 00:51:01.159 --> 00:51:07.960 essentially fight it out, okay. So his expectation was that the Navy would 590 00:51:07.960 --> 00:51:14.360 be prepared, the troops would be trained, here's a plan to evacuate them 591 00:51:14.400 --> 00:51:19.679 if they can't hold the beach, okay, and they would be landed someplace 592 00:51:19.760 --> 00:51:28.679 else, or they would be prepared to go into conducts guerrilla warfare. Especially 593 00:51:28.800 --> 00:51:34.679 you'll see evacuation and guerrilla warfare throughout all of the discussions. What we now 594 00:51:34.840 --> 00:51:39.519 know was that there were never any preparations for that. There were no evacuation 595 00:51:39.719 --> 00:51:45.679 plans. The troops were never briefed on this. They were not supplied, 596 00:51:45.800 --> 00:51:50.760 equipped, or trained or prepared with plans to go into guerrilla warfare. And 597 00:51:51.280 --> 00:51:58.239 the landing site really didn't support that. It was physically, especially when the 598 00:51:58.320 --> 00:52:02.840 Cubans had had time to lock the roads coming into it, it was swamps. 599 00:52:04.079 --> 00:52:07.880 So neither one of those options were really going to work. So whatever 600 00:52:08.079 --> 00:52:14.440 Kennedy had expected as they fall back was never realistic. So at the end 601 00:52:14.599 --> 00:52:19.559 he gave another order which said, the Navy is to provide fighter cover to 602 00:52:21.000 --> 00:52:25.440 evacuate the troops, and you know, we'll execute that plan. The Navy 603 00:52:25.559 --> 00:52:31.320 jets got there at the wrong time. There was no coordination, no communication 604 00:52:31.519 --> 00:52:38.119 with the ground forces, and when actually Lynch discussed that with the Cuban commander 605 00:52:38.199 --> 00:52:44.599 on the beach, the Cuban commander on the beach basically rejected that whole idea. 606 00:52:44.760 --> 00:52:47.039 You know, we're here to fight. We'll continue to fight as best 607 00:52:47.159 --> 00:52:52.679 we can. And essentially the majority of the force was taken captive, taken 608 00:52:52.760 --> 00:52:59.400 prisoner, and remained in Cuban prison camps for another couple of years. That 609 00:53:00.320 --> 00:53:05.199 was the end of the landing. What the aftermath of the landing was you 610 00:53:05.360 --> 00:53:07.239 discussed earlier, Chuck, and it was the press coverage, and it was 611 00:53:07.320 --> 00:53:14.639 Kennedy's decision to accept total responsibility, and that's what ended up in the history 612 00:53:14.639 --> 00:53:17.519 books. But what didn't end up in the history books is the fact that 613 00:53:17.679 --> 00:53:25.360 there was an intense internal CIA investigation of this disaster, and the Inspector General 614 00:53:25.440 --> 00:53:30.800 of the CIA looked into it in great detail, interviewed people, and wrote 615 00:53:30.840 --> 00:53:37.119 a scathing report on Bissle and Barnes, and the fact that this was, 616 00:53:38.400 --> 00:53:45.280 you know, dysfunctional, that they their chain of command was terrible, just 617 00:53:45.400 --> 00:53:51.159 highlighted all these different things. Bisil was so irt by this that he managed 618 00:53:51.199 --> 00:53:57.800 to persuade the CIA director to let him write a response. I mean that 619 00:53:57.960 --> 00:54:02.119 never happens. So you had two stories. One was the inspector general story 620 00:54:02.320 --> 00:54:07.840 was this is our problem, it wasn't Kennedy's. We totally screwed up this 621 00:54:07.000 --> 00:54:14.840 operation, and an apologia from Bisle saying, oh no, we did everything 622 00:54:15.000 --> 00:54:19.880 right. Just you know, don't listen to that other guy. That's what's 623 00:54:19.960 --> 00:54:27.039 in the historical record which never gets covered. But the offshoot of that was 624 00:54:27.880 --> 00:54:34.320 that Bissile had the opportunity to talk to Hawkins, an easter line who with 625 00:54:34.400 --> 00:54:40.599 the actual American military commanders of the force, and Bissile got the chance to 626 00:54:40.719 --> 00:54:46.159 tell them his story. It was all Kennedy's fault. He didn't listen to 627 00:54:46.360 --> 00:54:52.320 me, he wouldn't do the things I asked him to do, and bistle, 628 00:54:52.559 --> 00:55:00.320 I'm sorry. Hawkins an easter Line just became tremendously bitter and actually carried 629 00:55:00.400 --> 00:55:07.440 that story down to Florida and started telling the operations people in Florida Biscil's story 630 00:55:07.880 --> 00:55:13.800 about how it was all Kennedy's fault. So unfortunately, even the Cuban forces 631 00:55:13.880 --> 00:55:21.760 themselves only heard that story. They have never seen or never told the other 632 00:55:21.880 --> 00:55:25.840 story. And so to this day, of course, they developed an extremely 633 00:55:27.000 --> 00:55:32.480 hostile added towards truths. They used the term treason, abandonment, you know, 634 00:55:34.159 --> 00:55:39.480 all of these, which is what Hawkins and easter Line got from Bistol 635 00:55:39.599 --> 00:55:45.199 and Barns. And year decades later, when they're shown the real documents, 636 00:55:45.400 --> 00:55:50.320 they realized and apologized for what they had done. You know, we didn't 637 00:55:50.400 --> 00:55:54.719 realize we were telling them a wrong story. But it's way too late. 638 00:55:54.920 --> 00:55:59.159 I mean, it was thirty years after the fact. So that's where we 639 00:55:59.320 --> 00:56:05.679 are now, really, with the history books which describe it as Kennedy's disaster, 640 00:56:06.599 --> 00:56:12.360 the documents and Scoothing Inspector General Report giving a totally different picture, and 641 00:56:13.119 --> 00:56:20.599 the Cuban community and a lot of the CIA group in Miami having Barnes and 642 00:56:20.679 --> 00:56:27.440 Bissell story of Kennedy screw up. And then, of course, like I 643 00:56:27.519 --> 00:56:30.239 said, the public, you know, look at this, and ever after 644 00:56:30.440 --> 00:56:37.840 you have the ideas the combination of ideas that come out. This leads directly 645 00:56:37.920 --> 00:56:43.800 into the discussions of the Howard hunt, long before the alleged deathbed confession. 646 00:56:44.000 --> 00:56:47.039 But he wrote a book about it, he made statements about it, he 647 00:56:47.320 --> 00:56:52.400 was tied to it, the Watergate guys, right, this comes back up 648 00:56:52.679 --> 00:56:55.519 and what about that? I mean, obviously there's the press conference that I 649 00:56:55.639 --> 00:57:00.719 mentioned where you know, the president takes responsibility and all this, which clearly 650 00:57:00.880 --> 00:57:07.519 the responsibility should lay with whoever's idea was to completely not have communication function or 651 00:57:07.599 --> 00:57:14.800 be so dysfunctional that it's almost laughable. But at the same time, there's 652 00:57:14.920 --> 00:57:17.519 more to it, right, and there's still as yet unknown elements to this, 653 00:57:17.719 --> 00:57:22.360 isn't there? Or am I mistaken about that? Oh well, it 654 00:57:22.000 --> 00:57:27.760 becomes a mystery. You know, you you covered it is so stupid that 655 00:57:27.880 --> 00:57:31.159 it raised the question of was this intentional? Right? Were they? You 656 00:57:31.239 --> 00:57:37.639 know, are they this stupid and this uncoordinated and displayed this much hubrius or 657 00:57:37.760 --> 00:57:40.599 is this part of a plan that that remains an open question. The know 658 00:57:40.719 --> 00:57:46.039 to force Kennedy's hand, that's still discussed. Uh. Some of the things 659 00:57:46.119 --> 00:57:51.199 we just uh, that we discussed were that were not known at the time. 660 00:57:51.280 --> 00:57:55.440 I mean, those assassination attempts were not known at the time. That 661 00:57:55.679 --> 00:58:01.280 eventually came out through the work of the Church Committee and the HSCA. But 662 00:58:01.960 --> 00:58:07.760 that was what fifteen years after the fact, and it's only more recently that 663 00:58:07.920 --> 00:58:13.360 we've learned more about the false flag what might have been in play there. 664 00:58:13.440 --> 00:58:20.760 So yeah, I guess that it's kind of like Howard Hunt. You mentioned 665 00:58:20.800 --> 00:58:23.679 Howard Hunt. Howard Hunt was not involved with any of this. He was 666 00:58:23.760 --> 00:58:29.280 a political action officer. He knew nothing about any of this. But Howard 667 00:58:29.679 --> 00:58:35.039 of course claimed to know everything about everything, right, So you know, 668 00:58:35.480 --> 00:58:40.440 Howard just adds more disinformation to the mix about all he would have known were 669 00:58:40.480 --> 00:58:45.000 a couple of names out of jam Wave in Miami, guys who were in 670 00:58:45.239 --> 00:58:52.199 operations and we're doing some support for this, like David Morales. But so 671 00:58:52.440 --> 00:58:58.239 you just it kind of piles on top of each other in terms of mystery 672 00:58:58.320 --> 00:59:01.599 after the fact and leaves us chasing our tail when if you go back to 673 00:59:02.360 --> 00:59:09.679 the IG's report and the inquiry into this, which which never surfaces, but 674 00:59:10.280 --> 00:59:13.519 but nobody does. I mean, yes, there have been a couple of 675 00:59:13.599 --> 00:59:16.960 books written on that, good books written on that, not just in denial, 676 00:59:17.199 --> 00:59:21.320 but nobody reads them. I mean they're deep history books, and nobody 677 00:59:21.400 --> 00:59:29.159 reads deep story, so that those parts never make it really into discussion discussions 678 00:59:29.239 --> 00:59:34.800 that we're interested in. The Bay of Pigs remains a mystery. It remains 679 00:59:34.880 --> 00:59:39.039 all Kennedy's fault, or it remains something weak, you know, we'll just 680 00:59:39.119 --> 00:59:44.400 puzzle over forever, like the only thing that they don't need to Yeah, 681 00:59:44.960 --> 00:59:46.800 well, the only thing that can be agreed upon is that it's a massive 682 00:59:46.840 --> 00:59:51.000 failure. I mean, that's really what it comes down to. As to 683 00:59:51.079 --> 00:59:55.519 who's responsible for it and everything else. There's open questions, and the open 684 00:59:55.639 --> 01:00:00.039 questions have a lot of leading pieces, you know, you have, I 685 01:00:00.039 --> 01:00:04.159 have some pretty decent priority suspects here. As for their motivation, though, 686 01:00:04.159 --> 01:00:07.599 it's difficult to connect the motivation to it, but it's still relevant even sixty 687 01:00:07.639 --> 01:00:13.039 three late years later, right, it still is relevant? And does it 688 01:00:13.519 --> 01:00:15.119 The ultimate question, which a lot of people who listen to my show might 689 01:00:15.199 --> 01:00:22.480 have is does this have any relevance to the assassination in your opinion? Is 690 01:00:22.599 --> 01:00:29.079 it relevant to that discussion in a realistic and direct way that that's the certainly 691 01:00:29.159 --> 01:00:34.000 it is. Certainly it's relevant to discussion in my view of what happened because 692 01:00:34.039 --> 01:00:38.559 it raised the issue of motive. There is no doubt that the anti Castro 693 01:00:38.719 --> 01:00:49.239 Cubans regarded JFK's action as treachery and literally leading to the deaths of many of 694 01:00:49.320 --> 01:00:52.599 their friends. I mean, this became a very personal thing and whether that 695 01:00:52.760 --> 01:00:55.280 was right or wrong, that was the belief that they were left with. 696 01:00:55.519 --> 01:01:01.559 That's what people they trusted told them. And so it established a level of 697 01:01:02.079 --> 01:01:08.679 individual bitterness towards JFK that you still see repeated in their remarks. And that 698 01:01:08.960 --> 01:01:16.599 was a prelude to the missile crisis, where again, is resolution of that 699 01:01:16.800 --> 01:01:24.400 without an invading Cuba and without a war just elevated that bitterness. So yes, 700 01:01:25.199 --> 01:01:29.679 in terms of motive, and you know, Chuck, my take on 701 01:01:30.760 --> 01:01:35.760 the actual motive behind the attack in Dallas is yeah, I think it's more 702 01:01:35.840 --> 01:01:43.719 than relevant because the story that they were given created the motive of revenge. 703 01:01:44.800 --> 01:01:51.519 It created an intense emotional state in people that felt that they had more than 704 01:01:51.639 --> 01:01:57.639 adequate reason to take an action against JFK. So yeah, in terms of 705 01:01:57.800 --> 01:02:01.280 motive and conditioning, I think it's more than relevant to the attack in Dallas, 706 01:02:01.960 --> 01:02:06.239 right, And I'd like to add an addendum to what you just said, 707 01:02:06.360 --> 01:02:07.960 and if you want to object to it, please do. I don't 708 01:02:08.039 --> 01:02:10.199 like to add on to what you have to say, but I think this 709 01:02:10.400 --> 01:02:16.280 is necessary. Is that even for those that might not wish to entertain the 710 01:02:16.480 --> 01:02:23.159 idea that anti Castro Cubans are the responsible party, the masterminds, the planners, 711 01:02:23.960 --> 01:02:29.199 whatever, here's one thing that I think is beyond argument, and that 712 01:02:29.599 --> 01:02:34.519 is that a group of individuals, through various things that happen, including the 713 01:02:34.559 --> 01:02:40.199 Bay of Pigs, definitely have one of the best motivators for murder and makes 714 01:02:40.280 --> 01:02:47.119 them eligible to be a useful group and have useful individuals within their group for 715 01:02:47.480 --> 01:02:54.320 an operation if you wanted to partake of an operation of this kind, and 716 01:02:54.639 --> 01:03:00.760 they are a useful group who are probably readily available and at lead helpful if 717 01:03:00.840 --> 01:03:05.960 you wanted to plan out such an operation, even if they're not the planners 718 01:03:06.039 --> 01:03:12.239 themselves, the anti Castro Cubans are fully eligible to be for lack of a 719 01:03:12.280 --> 01:03:16.000 better term in play. Regarding the attack in Dallas. Do you feel as 720 01:03:16.039 --> 01:03:22.320 though that's an adequate or reasonable statement. No, I think that's quite reasonable, 721 01:03:22.519 --> 01:03:25.639 And I think the one thing that has to be added to that is 722 01:03:27.119 --> 01:03:31.599 they not only have motive, they not only have emotion. They're not only 723 01:03:31.800 --> 01:03:37.239 available to other people who know them, who've worked with them, and if 724 01:03:37.280 --> 01:03:40.559 they choose to put this together, know who to talk to. But they 725 01:03:40.599 --> 01:03:45.719 are extremely well trained, extremely proficient. By the time of the Bay of 726 01:03:45.800 --> 01:03:51.639 Pigs, there's a cadre who's been trained and been in and out of Cuba. 727 01:03:51.920 --> 01:03:55.880 They know infiltration, exfiltration, they're extremely skilled at that. And they 728 01:03:55.960 --> 01:04:04.159 are skilled in the tactics of assault and assassination because some of them have involved 729 01:04:04.199 --> 01:04:11.000 in several attempts, including sniper attacks on Fidel Castro. So we're not just 730 01:04:11.119 --> 01:04:16.039 talking about a group of potential candidates. We're talking about a group of highly 731 01:04:16.159 --> 01:04:23.719 skilled potential candidates. So one could easily argue that in the classic framework of 732 01:04:24.159 --> 01:04:29.719 means, motive and opportunity, what you have here is an easy assumption of 733 01:04:29.840 --> 01:04:33.719 motive and an easy assumption of means on a lot of levels. Due to 734 01:04:33.800 --> 01:04:38.920 the fact that there was training, access to equipment, access to information, 735 01:04:39.400 --> 01:04:45.639 connection to undercover people, intelligence people, underground people, etc. Et cetera. 736 01:04:45.760 --> 01:04:50.639 Now, only thing left there is opportunity in the classic structure, and 737 01:04:50.760 --> 01:04:57.280 that's it. So two out of three of the criteria are met regarding an 738 01:04:57.400 --> 01:05:01.920 eligible suspect group, and that's something to keep in mind as you go further 739 01:05:02.039 --> 01:05:04.960 and as you study this, and that is relevant. Now does that mean 740 01:05:05.039 --> 01:05:08.440 that they absolutely are involved? No? No, no, no no no. 741 01:05:09.360 --> 01:05:12.239 I can't prove that beyond a shadow of a doubt. But who knows 742 01:05:12.440 --> 01:05:15.119 evidence might emerge to that effect. And if it did, at the very 743 01:05:15.199 --> 01:05:25.000 least two thirds of the three pronged or the triad of necessary elements are already 744 01:05:25.039 --> 01:05:30.039 attached easily observably. So with all that in mind, I urge you guys 745 01:05:30.119 --> 01:05:34.639 to go to Larrydashancock dot com read the blog that Larry puts out. Obviously 746 01:05:34.679 --> 01:05:39.119 I recommend all of his books. A great discussion about the Bay of Pigs, 747 01:05:39.119 --> 01:05:43.599 though, is included in the book in Denial, which you might recognize 748 01:05:43.639 --> 01:05:45.920 as one of those things that we do a book commercial for here Onnochelly dot 749 01:05:46.000 --> 01:05:50.840 com and during podcasts, etc. But not just because he's my friend, 750 01:05:50.880 --> 01:05:56.199 and he's a great writer, but because you can be educated rather deeply by 751 01:05:56.280 --> 01:06:00.760 observing his work, and not just on this case, this sub section of 752 01:06:00.840 --> 01:06:04.239 the case, this part of history nineteen sixty one, etc. Etc. 753 01:06:04.559 --> 01:06:10.559 But on a lot of things all the way from unidentified creating chaos, shadow 754 01:06:10.639 --> 01:06:14.159 warfare, the awful grace of God, and one more time, let's mention 755 01:06:14.239 --> 01:06:18.639 it in denial, which has a lot to do with the failures and the 756 01:06:18.960 --> 01:06:27.360 successes and lack of successes by US assets regarding secret wars that are not always 757 01:06:27.400 --> 01:06:30.559 so secret, but quite often are and could involve anything from air strikes and 758 01:06:30.639 --> 01:06:36.000 tanks to flotillas of individuals who are rebels being landed on their native soil in 759 01:06:36.159 --> 01:06:42.480 order to retake it, despite whatever the communication is at the moment, or 760 01:06:42.599 --> 01:06:47.039 despite whatever assets could be lying in wait. Success or lack thereof, is 761 01:06:47.199 --> 01:06:53.159 not necessarily ensured. As you study the history of the Cold War, the 762 01:06:53.280 --> 01:06:57.800 twentieth century, the United States, and totality, there's a lot to be 763 01:06:57.880 --> 01:07:00.760 said and a lot to be studied. Once again, just recognizing that on 764 01:07:00.880 --> 01:07:03.440 this day in history, yeah, we're talking about the beginning of the Bay 765 01:07:03.480 --> 01:07:06.719 of Pigs and the landing, but there's a lot more to it, the 766 01:07:08.000 --> 01:07:11.880 lead up to it, the overall program that the Bay of Pigs was clearly 767 01:07:12.000 --> 01:07:17.320 born out of, and the aftermath and residual resonance which has continued to echo 768 01:07:17.440 --> 01:07:21.360 through history. So, all of that having been said, any final thoughts, 769 01:07:21.440 --> 01:07:25.480 Larry Hancock, anything else you want to drop on here? Or do 770 01:07:25.519 --> 01:07:29.360 you think we've covered this pretty well for today? Now? I think we've 771 01:07:29.440 --> 01:07:33.039 covered it well, and I think I appreciate doing this, and it's always 772 01:07:33.119 --> 01:07:40.760 good to revisits this particular one and try to I won't say correct the historical 773 01:07:40.840 --> 01:07:45.800 record, but maybe maybe expand it a little bit. So I appreciate being 774 01:07:45.880 --> 01:07:51.280 on shock, clarification, expansion and addition of real facts, real information I 775 01:07:51.360 --> 01:07:55.159 think is always relevant and good to know, because how are you going to 776 01:07:55.239 --> 01:07:59.679 know how to avoid the mistakes of history if you don't know the history to 777 01:07:59.719 --> 01:08:02.599 begin with, if it's all kept undercover, how are you ever going to 778 01:08:02.719 --> 01:08:06.639 witness what may have been that you don't want to repeat? And also, 779 01:08:08.000 --> 01:08:12.719 how is it that you could relive some of the successful efforts in the past 780 01:08:12.880 --> 01:08:16.079 if you're not informed? So you can be informed by checking out all the 781 01:08:16.119 --> 01:08:21.760 works of Larry Hancock again, larrydsh Hancock dot com. In weeks coming up, 782 01:08:21.800 --> 01:08:26.840 we will be discussing more about Lancer as those details are planned out, 783 01:08:26.960 --> 01:08:30.399 and the twenty twenty four conference we do know is going to occur between the 784 01:08:30.439 --> 01:08:33.279 twenty second and the twenty fourth in November. Larry will be part of it, 785 01:08:33.399 --> 01:08:36.439 so will I. But in the meantime we're also on the lookout for 786 01:08:36.479 --> 01:08:41.560 the Oswald book and any idea what we might discuss in two more weeks when 787 01:08:41.600 --> 01:08:44.840 you come back around like every other Wednesday, Larry is with us. I 788 01:08:44.920 --> 01:08:47.840 don't know if we were talked kind of talked about the Bay of Pigs as 789 01:08:47.960 --> 01:08:54.199 being like a mystery of black hole whatever, there's more to it. I 790 01:08:54.279 --> 01:08:58.359 think maybe we should talk about Mexico City and the jfk Assass Nation, Chuck, 791 01:08:58.439 --> 01:09:01.880 because I mean, if we start started this one, that's another good 792 01:09:01.960 --> 01:09:08.159 place to go into mysteries. True enough, true enough, And just as 793 01:09:08.199 --> 01:09:10.640 a teaser to that, I'll tell you this. You know, the first 794 01:09:10.720 --> 01:09:14.840 time I heard about Mexico City and all that scary thing, do you know 795 01:09:14.880 --> 01:09:17.079 where that was? I mean, you have an idea about my history with 796 01:09:17.199 --> 01:09:20.199 what I've studied, where I've been through in the literature and stuff I've done 797 01:09:20.239 --> 01:09:25.800 in research. Where do you think I first actually learned about Mexico City and 798 01:09:25.880 --> 01:09:30.960 Oswald and all that. Oh goodness, Peter Dale Scott, No, you 799 01:09:30.039 --> 01:09:34.600 would think it would be something good like that, right, it's kind of 800 01:09:34.680 --> 01:09:43.000 laughable. I saw that mock trial, right, which made it to America 801 01:09:43.399 --> 01:09:45.680 a little bit after, because they did it in eighty six, and I 802 01:09:45.760 --> 01:09:49.199 got really interested. My interest begins in eighty eight, you understand around there, 803 01:09:49.239 --> 01:09:54.279 I mean I was mildly interested, but around the twenty fifth anniversary, 804 01:09:54.319 --> 01:09:58.760 because of all the media attention, it drew my eye to the jfk assassination 805 01:09:58.920 --> 01:10:04.800 particularly, and I'm watching that mock trial and what did uh you know one 806 01:10:04.840 --> 01:10:10.800 of the lawyers decided to call up this guy Ed Lopez. Oh yeah, 807 01:10:11.000 --> 01:10:14.600 And it was funny because Ed Lopez comes on the stand there in this mock 808 01:10:14.680 --> 01:10:16.800 trial, which you know, later on I learned how ridiculous this thing was, 809 01:10:17.239 --> 01:10:21.000 but I thought I was watching, you know, something really really incredibly 810 01:10:21.079 --> 01:10:27.239 insightful because it was real witnesses, right, and you know, Bugliosi's supposed 811 01:10:27.239 --> 01:10:30.079 to be America's lawyer and all that, and Jerry Spence is involved, and 812 01:10:30.439 --> 01:10:33.319 they're using real jurors from Dallas, and they were pretending they were in the 813 01:10:33.399 --> 01:10:36.800 Dallas courtroom. Turns out they were actually in the UK. But anyway, 814 01:10:38.479 --> 01:10:42.079 all that's going on and we're bringing real witnesses, and they brought this guy 815 01:10:42.159 --> 01:10:46.039 on who was an investigator for the House Select Committee, Ed Lopez, And 816 01:10:46.319 --> 01:10:49.479 this is all I knew. And there's Eddie Lopez. He's on the stand, 817 01:10:50.159 --> 01:10:53.199 and over and over again, he pretty much says, yeah, I 818 01:10:53.239 --> 01:10:57.600 can't talk about much of this. I mean, he's a witness. I 819 01:10:57.680 --> 01:11:00.920 couldn't talk, but I can't talk about it. Yeah, yeah, And 820 01:11:00.439 --> 01:11:03.800 I watched that and I went, ooh, that's got to be the good 821 01:11:03.880 --> 01:11:09.159 stuff. And I was not educated on the case at all. It was 822 01:11:09.279 --> 01:11:12.239 it was almost all brand new to me. Larry and I just went, 823 01:11:13.000 --> 01:11:17.199 that's got to be the good stuff. And ever after there is a serious 824 01:11:17.279 --> 01:11:23.159 learning curve there that I had to get on. And but isn't that funny 825 01:11:23.199 --> 01:11:26.479 that that's the way I was kind of introduced. Oh that is, And 826 01:11:26.920 --> 01:11:30.359 I'm sure Ed would have liked to say more. I can picture him going, 827 01:11:30.000 --> 01:11:32.279 I can't talk about it, but if I could, I'd tell you 828 01:11:32.439 --> 01:11:35.399 not to believe any of them. Yeah, maybe I'll include a link to 829 01:11:35.479 --> 01:11:39.640 that with tonight's show or whatever, but I think we should go over the 830 01:11:39.800 --> 01:11:42.720 Obviously, we're gonna have to talk about the Lopez Report, which is written 831 01:11:43.199 --> 01:11:45.960 by Ed Lopez and Dan Hardaway. I think Mexico City would be great, 832 01:11:46.079 --> 01:11:50.079 unless something else comes up in the news that might be more relevant to our 833 01:11:50.119 --> 01:11:54.760 discussion, because we could do Mexico City later. But two weeks from now, 834 01:11:54.760 --> 01:11:57.720 I'd love to cover Mexico City with you. So let's plan on that 835 01:11:57.880 --> 01:12:00.720 for now, tentatively, let's pencil it in. Does that sound good? 836 01:12:00.399 --> 01:12:03.560 Sounds good? All right, guys. So in two weeks, hopefully Larry 837 01:12:03.600 --> 01:12:08.520 will be back with us and we'll talk about Oswald and Mexico City and that 838 01:12:09.439 --> 01:12:14.239 debacle chicanery that went on there. And why do I say that? Well, 839 01:12:14.239 --> 01:12:15.600 I guess you'll have to listen in two weeks and find out. In 840 01:12:15.680 --> 01:12:20.039 the meantime, Larrydshncock dot com all of Larry's books. There are links to 841 01:12:20.119 --> 01:12:25.479 his books from that website, from the word press site, which is available. 842 01:12:25.479 --> 01:12:28.880 I'll give you the links to both in the show notes. And I 843 01:12:29.000 --> 01:12:32.960 thank you Larry for doing this with us once again. So it's good to 844 01:12:33.000 --> 01:12:36.399 be here. We'll see in a couple of weeks. Absolutely, and hopefully 845 01:12:36.439 --> 01:12:43.000 you guys will be back with us as time turns on and we get closer 846 01:12:43.079 --> 01:12:45.239 to November in Dallas, because that's going to be an interesting one. But 847 01:12:45.359 --> 01:12:49.000 we'll get educated more and more with Larry Hancock every other week as often as 848 01:12:49.039 --> 01:12:53.439 we can get him, and talk about Mexico City next time. In the 849 01:12:53.520 --> 01:12:57.239 meanwhile, I am merely ocelly. All of you are indeed the effect. 850 01:12:57.319 --> 01:13:00.239 And by the way, I could certainly use any help that you want to 851 01:13:00.319 --> 01:13:03.119 kick forward, because I just got done paying some pretty big annual bills for 852 01:13:03.199 --> 01:13:06.840 ochelly dot com and the free podcast and all that. It's free to you 853 01:13:06.960 --> 01:13:12.920 guys, not to me. I am merely ocelly. All of you are 854 01:13:13.000 --> 01:13:15.199 indeed the effect, and you can be more of the effect if you make 855 01:13:15.239 --> 01:13:19.399 a contribution at the oh donate button on ochelly dot com. Be well,