1 00:00:00,040 --> 00:00:03,480 When I've gone through periods where I've been really stressed or anxious about something, 2 00:00:03,520 --> 00:00:06,839 it's the three am wake ups, and I'm so glad that we're talking about 3 00:00:06,839 --> 00:00:10,320 that today. That's the main reason I wanted to have this conversation was so 4 00:00:10,359 --> 00:00:14,160 that anyone else who's going through all of that. They're waking up at three 5 00:00:14,160 --> 00:00:16,679 am. They're feeling stress, they're feeling anxious, they think they might be 6 00:00:16,719 --> 00:00:20,839 on the edge of burnout. A they don't feel as a loan and B 7 00:00:21,000 --> 00:00:24,480 they know it's okay to talk about this stuff and we need to be talking 8 00:00:24,519 --> 00:00:30,320 about it a little bit more. Welcome to imperfect Action. I'm Steph Taylor. 9 00:00:30,920 --> 00:00:33,920 For years, I read all the books, downloaded all the freebies, 10 00:00:34,000 --> 00:00:38,640 and did all the courses, but it wasn't until I started taking imperfect action 11 00:00:38,920 --> 00:00:44,200 that my business had its first million dollar year. Imperfect action is about doing 12 00:00:44,240 --> 00:00:50,520 things before you're ready, prioritizing consistent action over perfect action, and moving forward 13 00:00:50,840 --> 00:00:54,719 even when you're not sure you're doing it right. On this show, you 14 00:00:54,719 --> 00:00:59,679 can expect mindset advice, actionable marketing tips and strategies to build a business that 15 00:00:59,719 --> 00:01:04,640 bring you more profit, more freedom, and even more joy. Are you 16 00:01:04,680 --> 00:01:08,079 on the list to get my daily businesses. Every day i'll send you a 17 00:01:08,120 --> 00:01:12,519 bite sized prompt designed to help you grow your business in a more intentional way. 18 00:01:12,680 --> 00:01:17,359 Sign up at step Taylor dot com, forward slash DBB, or at 19 00:01:17,359 --> 00:01:23,959 the link in the show notes. Hey, welcome back to Imperfect Action. 20 00:01:23,000 --> 00:01:29,480 This episode six hundred and ninety four. Today is a really special and slightly 21 00:01:29,560 --> 00:01:34,680 different episode to what I usually have on this show. And that's because today 22 00:01:34,760 --> 00:01:38,719 I'm chatting to a good friend, mentor, and actually my former boss, 23 00:01:38,760 --> 00:01:44,519 Mike Bromley from Beyond Billabiles. Mike and I started working together back in twenty 24 00:01:44,599 --> 00:01:49,599 sixteen when I had started my very first business, quit my corporate job, 25 00:01:49,640 --> 00:01:52,519 and then ran out of money and needed to get a part time job. 26 00:01:52,560 --> 00:01:57,799 So I started working with Mike right about the time when he burned his existing 27 00:01:57,799 --> 00:02:00,159 business to the ground, and I got to play a bit of a part 28 00:02:00,319 --> 00:02:06,200 with Mike and his business partner at the time building a completely new business from 29 00:02:06,239 --> 00:02:13,039 scratch, which was it was wild. And today we're talking about Mike's experience 30 00:02:13,159 --> 00:02:16,719 and his journey through burnout, anxiety, depression, all of the mental health 31 00:02:16,759 --> 00:02:23,199 things that nobody really talks about in the business world. But that are a 32 00:02:23,280 --> 00:02:28,840 really big issue and that I think, especially as overachievers and people who want 33 00:02:28,879 --> 00:02:30,560 to just do more, do all of the things, chase all of the 34 00:02:30,560 --> 00:02:37,599 shiny objects that we are very much prone to facing at some stage in our 35 00:02:37,800 --> 00:02:40,680 business journeys. So, without further ado, let's jump into today's episode. 36 00:02:42,719 --> 00:02:46,080 Mike, Welcome to Imperfect Action. It feels really interesting to have you on 37 00:02:46,280 --> 00:02:51,400 the other side of the microphone, considering I was your first ever podcast guest, 38 00:02:52,039 --> 00:02:55,080 it's amazing and I'm sitting in probably the way we did it in Yeah, 39 00:02:58,240 --> 00:03:00,599 but for our listeners who don't know you as well as I do, 40 00:03:00,800 --> 00:03:05,199 please do introduce. Who are you? What do you do? Yeah? 41 00:03:05,319 --> 00:03:10,000 I'm Mike Brombly. I owned Beyond Billables, where a branding agency for professional 42 00:03:10,120 --> 00:03:15,520 firms. I primarily work with legal and financial services firms in Australia and around 43 00:03:15,520 --> 00:03:22,080 the world, so we do brand strategy, brand design, websites and ultimately 44 00:03:22,439 --> 00:03:27,840 social content and helping them build their brand and really you know, stand out 45 00:03:28,199 --> 00:03:32,560 in their markets. Now, that's Branding's a whole another episode that we could 46 00:03:32,599 --> 00:03:37,120 talk about its own. But the reason I really wanted to chat to you 47 00:03:37,159 --> 00:03:40,439 today on this show is because you have been through a bit of a journey 48 00:03:40,479 --> 00:03:45,520 in the last couple of years through burnout and mental health, and you're also 49 00:03:45,599 --> 00:03:51,439 somebody who's generally pretty open in sharing your experiences. So I want to chat 50 00:03:51,479 --> 00:03:54,319 a little bit about you know what's I think last year was probably where it 51 00:03:54,360 --> 00:03:58,039 all started for you, right, like that's where it got really bad, 52 00:03:58,639 --> 00:04:01,039 And I'd love if you could share a little bit around what was going on 53 00:04:01,319 --> 00:04:08,599 inside and outside your business that started to contribute to this burnout that you experienced. 54 00:04:09,039 --> 00:04:13,039 Yeah, well, I'll actually go back further because I think I really 55 00:04:13,080 --> 00:04:16,079 started to burnout as a recruiter when I ran the recruitment business. So for 56 00:04:16,160 --> 00:04:19,399 the listeners, I was a lawyer and then I ran an international league or 57 00:04:19,399 --> 00:04:26,319 recruitment consultancy which I owned as well in the end, and I really burn 58 00:04:26,399 --> 00:04:30,079 out from the hours in the stress of our live being at the casino all 59 00:04:30,120 --> 00:04:35,399 the time because of other people's decisions linked to our outcomes, and I really 60 00:04:35,439 --> 00:04:42,639 struggled to communicate, I struggled with the just the constantly being on, and 61 00:04:43,160 --> 00:04:46,480 I recognized that I had a lot of issues around just managing the anxiety of 62 00:04:46,480 --> 00:04:51,759 it, which kind of really drove me to look for an alternative, and 63 00:04:51,800 --> 00:04:55,240 I didn't know what that was for a lot of years, and for a 64 00:04:55,279 --> 00:04:59,720 little bit of time we were working together through that. Yeah, and in 65 00:05:00,279 --> 00:05:04,839 embracing in content and the creative side and strategic side helped me recognize that. 66 00:05:04,920 --> 00:05:11,519 But so in a lot of respects, I walked away from that recruitment business 67 00:05:11,680 --> 00:05:15,879 a very successful, very established business working for the best law firms in the 68 00:05:15,879 --> 00:05:18,079 world, and it cost me a lot of money. And I did that 69 00:05:18,160 --> 00:05:25,199 because of stress and anxiety and burnout and then starting a new business and my 70 00:05:25,240 --> 00:05:30,600 business partner and I went separate ways, and then I basically spent about fifteen 71 00:05:30,639 --> 00:05:35,560 months growing it from a thousand dollars a month to a business which had I 72 00:05:35,600 --> 00:05:41,759 think we had five or six in the team. By twenty twenty, COVID 73 00:05:41,839 --> 00:05:46,879 hit everything halved. I managed to survive that because of the lessons that I've 74 00:05:46,000 --> 00:05:50,839 learned and then got through that and we were growing and we're just doing work. 75 00:05:51,079 --> 00:05:56,240 And then, yeah, last year I started twenty twenty two with this 76 00:05:56,480 --> 00:05:59,639 great attitude. You know, we're through these two years of COVID. We're 77 00:05:59,680 --> 00:06:00,600 going to make the most I'm going to do X, Y and Z. 78 00:06:00,800 --> 00:06:05,839 And then my wife ended up getting diagnosed with breast cancer in February, and 79 00:06:06,040 --> 00:06:13,560 everything changed again and I had to take a big step back from a business 80 00:06:13,639 --> 00:06:17,800 perspective. I really had to work out, like what my priorities were, 81 00:06:17,959 --> 00:06:21,920 and that was, you know, being there for her and being there kids, 82 00:06:23,160 --> 00:06:27,560 and you know, come to terms with what that looked like from a 83 00:06:27,600 --> 00:06:31,879 work perspective, and also try to make it look like nothing to change from 84 00:06:31,920 --> 00:06:36,040 an outsider's perspective, because you know, you do get worried about, you 85 00:06:36,079 --> 00:06:41,040 know, people's perception, especially for your business when you run a service business 86 00:06:42,279 --> 00:06:46,839 and going through you know, relatively private things. I just had to step 87 00:06:46,839 --> 00:06:50,160 back. So the team of I've got an amazing team, and we just 88 00:06:50,240 --> 00:06:55,240 looked at what didn't need to get done, and what needed to get done, 89 00:06:55,240 --> 00:06:58,399 and what we need to focus one's clients and our work. And what 90 00:06:58,439 --> 00:07:01,600 I didn't need to do was the millions of other projects I tend to run 91 00:07:01,639 --> 00:07:08,639 at because of my shining ball syndrome entrepreneur brain and so yeah, I put 92 00:07:08,639 --> 00:07:12,680 a lot of that on hold and I had to, and for most of 93 00:07:12,680 --> 00:07:16,319 it, I was pretty stoic about things, but it definitely wore me down 94 00:07:16,560 --> 00:07:24,079 over the course of the year, and I was really anxious and you know, 95 00:07:25,439 --> 00:07:28,800 anxious, a little bit of depression by the end of the year. 96 00:07:29,079 --> 00:07:34,560 And I've been kind of managing that for the last seven to or eight months, 97 00:07:35,439 --> 00:07:39,480 for better and for worse at different times. But it's a journey steph 98 00:07:39,600 --> 00:07:44,560 Like, So when I really look at it, it did start back a 99 00:07:44,639 --> 00:07:47,240 long time ago, and you know, and I've been thinking about this, 100 00:07:48,000 --> 00:07:53,240 like people's decisions, like what if I had made better decisions to my own 101 00:07:53,279 --> 00:07:58,639 health ten years ago, fifteen years ago, maybe you know, wouldn't have 102 00:07:58,680 --> 00:08:03,160 cost me? What did had cost me? And then so now it has 103 00:08:03,199 --> 00:08:07,279 to be you know, priority, what is the priority? You know, 104 00:08:07,360 --> 00:08:09,439 being healthy, being well, because those are the things that give you the 105 00:08:09,480 --> 00:08:15,399 opportunity and if you're not and if your mental health is like absolutely central to 106 00:08:15,959 --> 00:08:20,040 that because when you get sick, when you're probably sick with mental health issues, 107 00:08:20,079 --> 00:08:22,319 you can't work very well, you can't perform for your clients very well. 108 00:08:24,839 --> 00:08:28,480 So yeah, it's really showed me the you know, the men in 109 00:08:28,519 --> 00:08:35,879 a mirror situation and made me just look back at these times and reassess the 110 00:08:35,000 --> 00:08:41,440 price of the decisions over time. Yeah, I think you answered about five 111 00:08:41,440 --> 00:08:46,480 of my questions. But I guess I think one of the big ones that 112 00:08:46,519 --> 00:08:50,840 I really want to jump into is the mistakes that you may have made along 113 00:08:50,879 --> 00:08:54,159 that journey. I know you touched on a couple of them. We all 114 00:08:54,159 --> 00:08:58,559 do the running towards the shiny object and adding more things onto our plate. 115 00:08:58,039 --> 00:09:01,480 But I'd love to know, with the benefit of hindsight, what other mistakes 116 00:09:01,480 --> 00:09:07,320 do you notice that you made that contributed to all of this? Yeah? 117 00:09:07,440 --> 00:09:13,440 Overwhelming? Yeah, so I think the shiny ball syndrome is less mistakes, 118 00:09:13,440 --> 00:09:16,840 just who I am and that's cool, Like, that's that's completely cool, 119 00:09:18,679 --> 00:09:22,279 and that's why I love things and I get so invested and it's it's fine. 120 00:09:22,519 --> 00:09:26,840 But I probably didn't listen to the people around me and up when they 121 00:09:26,840 --> 00:09:30,879 were telling me my relax my, like, you know, you're very stressed 122 00:09:30,960 --> 00:09:39,639 all and have fit for decades. I certainly didn't recognize that. I don't 123 00:09:39,679 --> 00:09:43,799 know, just making peace with who I am as a person, and then 124 00:09:43,840 --> 00:09:50,960 the reality of managing as opposed to trying to fix things as well. And 125 00:09:50,200 --> 00:09:56,440 yeah, so I don't really I don't really regret. I don't I don't 126 00:09:56,480 --> 00:10:03,200 have any regrets about anything. I just think I'm on a journey like everyone 127 00:10:03,240 --> 00:10:07,720 else, and I have known, and I've used things like my Brazilian jiu 128 00:10:07,759 --> 00:10:15,200 jitsu training and physical training to help manage situations for ten fifteen is martial arts. 129 00:10:16,159 --> 00:10:20,919 So it's not like I was I was unaware. It's probably just that 130 00:10:22,519 --> 00:10:26,039 I probably could have committed to looking after myself a little bit more in a 131 00:10:26,080 --> 00:10:31,960 real direct way instead of indirectly saying you'll be right and you're strong enough to 132 00:10:33,000 --> 00:10:37,440 get through it. I think that's something that far too many business owners do, 133 00:10:37,679 --> 00:10:39,279 is you know, and I'm being guilty of this as well at times 134 00:10:39,320 --> 00:10:43,799 when work's really busy and it's like, oh, I'm just going to not 135 00:10:43,919 --> 00:10:46,200 go to the gym today because I need to do this instead. Or I'm 136 00:10:46,279 --> 00:10:50,159 just gonna order Uber eats instead of cooking a healthy dinner and that, or 137 00:10:50,279 --> 00:10:52,879 you've had a stressful day and it's the easiest thing to do is open a 138 00:10:52,879 --> 00:10:58,360 bottle of wine rather than actually process all of the stress that's been happening during 139 00:10:58,399 --> 00:11:03,039 that day, and then it just kind of compounds and you hit that breaking 140 00:11:03,120 --> 00:11:07,720 point. I'm really curious what were some of the first signs for you that 141 00:11:07,799 --> 00:11:11,960 you were starting to experience this burnout, and that's something needed to change. 142 00:11:11,799 --> 00:11:18,840 Bad sleep. Yeah, my my wife's saying, why you crank your life? 143 00:11:20,159 --> 00:11:24,519 Right? Honestly, I could. I could tell that my own relationships 144 00:11:24,600 --> 00:11:28,679 weren't you know, very they It wasn't that they weren't very good, they 145 00:11:28,720 --> 00:11:33,399 just weren't as good as they could have been because I was short tempered at 146 00:11:33,440 --> 00:11:37,120 times. Like I'm not short tempered, that's overstating it, but you know, 147 00:11:37,360 --> 00:11:41,080 a bit shorter than I necessarily am. But the sleep thing was a 148 00:11:41,080 --> 00:11:43,519 really big thing for me, he said, the two and three o'clock wake 149 00:11:43,639 --> 00:11:48,879 ups. That was a really strong sign. I've always been quite anxious, 150 00:11:48,919 --> 00:11:56,440 and now I understand like the the anxiety and how a lot of it for 151 00:11:56,519 --> 00:12:01,440 me is just you know, it's very physical. There's certainly like just who 152 00:12:01,519 --> 00:12:07,440 I am? So but I kind of thrived through that. But there's just 153 00:12:07,480 --> 00:12:11,960 been different points where people made me realize that I didn't need to be that 154 00:12:11,080 --> 00:12:15,320 anxious guy to get the work done, because I thought that for a long 155 00:12:15,360 --> 00:12:16,960 time. I thought, no, no, no, I have to be 156 00:12:16,039 --> 00:12:20,000 like this to get the work done. This is what drives me. Once 157 00:12:20,039 --> 00:12:24,159 I realized I didn't and I could still get the work done. That was 158 00:12:24,200 --> 00:12:28,200 a revelation to me, but it took me nearly two decades of working to 159 00:12:28,240 --> 00:12:33,200 realize that, actually, you know, because part of it, you know, 160 00:12:33,320 --> 00:12:37,279 there's a lot going on with your own perceptions of control of what you 161 00:12:37,360 --> 00:12:41,559 do, wanting to make an impact in what you do. But at the 162 00:12:41,639 --> 00:12:48,120 end of the day, I've found that taking a step back has been just 163 00:12:48,440 --> 00:12:52,200 a lot better and the results are just as good, if not better, 164 00:12:52,480 --> 00:12:56,600 by not forcing one thing that you did say before. And a really good 165 00:12:56,600 --> 00:13:01,679 analogy by psychologists gave me. I was just talking about out like putting your 166 00:13:01,679 --> 00:13:05,200 sunscreen on, right, and with your mental health especially. You know, 167 00:13:05,440 --> 00:13:09,960 I put sunscreen on every time I got into beach like religiously, of course, 168 00:13:11,279 --> 00:13:15,480 But why wasn't I putting my sunscreen on, which is training every day 169 00:13:15,519 --> 00:13:20,120 for me or going for a walk. That's my sunscreen that mental health suns 170 00:13:20,200 --> 00:13:26,720 me going. If I don't have it on, I get burnt. And 171 00:13:26,039 --> 00:13:31,679 we've developed these habits. And that was a really good analogy for me because 172 00:13:31,200 --> 00:13:35,120 I could relate to it because every time I go out and sign I've got 173 00:13:35,120 --> 00:13:39,200 a hat on or I've got sunscreen on, and just have to do that 174 00:13:39,440 --> 00:13:43,600 for my mental health. Have there been any other things? I know you 175 00:13:43,720 --> 00:13:46,480 mentioned training, but have there been any other things that have been like that 176 00:13:46,679 --> 00:13:54,039 mental health sunscreen for you. I've tried meditation and struggle, and I think 177 00:13:54,159 --> 00:14:01,279 comedy, getting some laughs into my day. That's and of music and singing. 178 00:14:01,559 --> 00:14:03,600 I like to sing a bit, as you know, but no, 179 00:14:03,799 --> 00:14:09,200 in all reality, I've got some you know, if I'm seeing I'm generally 180 00:14:09,279 --> 00:14:13,519 in a good happy place, even if I'm just singing along in the car, 181 00:14:13,919 --> 00:14:16,639 you know, And it's a gauge to me, it's like what kind 182 00:14:16,639 --> 00:14:22,559 of where am I at? Mentally? So? Yeah, but certainly Brazilian 183 00:14:22,600 --> 00:14:26,519 jiu jitsu and martial arts has been the central piece for me because it's just 184 00:14:28,399 --> 00:14:33,919 time where I'm completely focused on that thing and not stuck in my head. 185 00:14:35,679 --> 00:14:37,360 Yeah, and I also, I can't remember which book it was, but 186 00:14:37,399 --> 00:14:43,519 I've read something a little while ago about how just having these little daily anchors, 187 00:14:43,840 --> 00:14:46,080 you know, if it's every I think was lunch times that you go 188 00:14:46,120 --> 00:14:50,159 and train, right, every lunch time you're going and training, that's an 189 00:14:50,200 --> 00:14:52,960 anchor for your brain that creates certainty. So even though everything else around you 190 00:14:54,000 --> 00:14:56,639 might be uncertain, there's still that little bit of certainty and security, which 191 00:14:56,639 --> 00:15:01,639 then gives your brain that it helps to well that anxiety because you can kind 192 00:15:01,639 --> 00:15:03,559 of predict what's going to happen tomorrow. You can predict a little bit of 193 00:15:03,600 --> 00:15:07,639 what's going to happen, and that feels really calming. Oh look, habit 194 00:15:07,759 --> 00:15:13,320 forming around these things is coming. I don't know if it's my anxiety or 195 00:15:13,720 --> 00:15:18,679 at HD or whatever it is, but habits for me like that are central 196 00:15:18,840 --> 00:15:24,639 to me to just be a lot calmer and more anchored in light. So 197 00:15:24,679 --> 00:15:26,159 that makes a lot of sense. Yeah, absolutely, And I think, 198 00:15:26,320 --> 00:15:28,840 like, I love that you said you struggle with meditation. I know, 199 00:15:30,000 --> 00:15:33,759 like there's most types of meditation. I can't do either, And I think 200 00:15:33,759 --> 00:15:37,039 there's such a big misconception that that's what we have to be doing and if 201 00:15:37,039 --> 00:15:39,840 we're not doing it, then we're not doing business right, And all the 202 00:15:39,960 --> 00:15:45,759 successful people are meditating. So I'm glad that you said that as well well 203 00:15:45,960 --> 00:15:48,879 trying to choke people and who other things of that. Well, you know, 204 00:15:50,080 --> 00:15:54,600 flow states. I'm a big believers sports can develops and my mental flow 205 00:15:54,679 --> 00:15:58,360 states. Whether you're going for a walk, I kind of feel not dissimilar 206 00:15:58,600 --> 00:16:03,039 going for a really nice walk as well. So I mean pilates for me, 207 00:16:03,159 --> 00:16:06,879 is that meditation, right, because it's that mind muscle connection. You 208 00:16:06,960 --> 00:16:10,519 have to focus on the body part that you're moving, otherwise you fall over. 209 00:16:10,919 --> 00:16:15,440 Yeah, exactly. So obviously adding in you know, adding in the 210 00:16:15,480 --> 00:16:18,759 training and prioritizing all of that, But that made a huge difference. What 211 00:16:18,919 --> 00:16:26,080 else did the process of getting back to normal or relatively normal look like? 212 00:16:26,320 --> 00:16:33,879 For you? Just looking at my priorities and also recognizing just just being thankful 213 00:16:33,919 --> 00:16:37,080 for what we have and what we are. And I've got to like the 214 00:16:37,080 --> 00:16:42,600 most amazing family, and for me, I've always you know, And it 215 00:16:42,600 --> 00:16:45,320 can be double edged sort because I put a lot of pressure on myself to 216 00:16:45,399 --> 00:16:49,120 be the best dad, best husband, best thing I could be, and 217 00:16:49,240 --> 00:16:55,480 within that context, judged myself pretty harshly in the last few years just because 218 00:16:56,759 --> 00:17:02,559 of yeah, of the reality, but actually it was more about that I 219 00:17:02,679 --> 00:17:07,559 just just craved time with my kids and and I just want to make the 220 00:17:07,599 --> 00:17:12,559 best of it. Well I can write, and so yeah, I think 221 00:17:12,759 --> 00:17:18,839 just reconnecting to what I really value, which is being healthy, you know, 222 00:17:19,000 --> 00:17:25,640 spending good time with my family, getting back to having a you know, 223 00:17:25,799 --> 00:17:30,680 dream and a goal to travel and reignite some passions around things like that 224 00:17:33,480 --> 00:17:37,000 and other things I do, you know, like, look, I needed 225 00:17:37,039 --> 00:17:41,680 to seek help. I was really glad that I was actually at a conference 226 00:17:41,440 --> 00:17:48,200 about three years ago and I heard someone on stage talking about ADHD and my 227 00:17:48,240 --> 00:17:51,599 wife was poking me in the ribs the whole time, say and that's you, 228 00:17:51,759 --> 00:17:56,400 that's you, that's you, like all the examples, and actually prompted 229 00:17:56,440 --> 00:18:00,880 me to finally go and see a psychologist because I've never seen one, and 230 00:18:00,000 --> 00:18:06,599 he's been hugely helpful in the last three years. I was really fortunate that 231 00:18:06,680 --> 00:18:11,279 started in January twenty twenty, and so I had that support through the COVID 232 00:18:11,319 --> 00:18:18,000 situation and reframing a lot of things like that, and then last year and 233 00:18:18,160 --> 00:18:22,920 yeah, engagement my doctor as well, and looking at medication and other things 234 00:18:23,039 --> 00:18:27,880 that can help. And I've been through a few and had different experiences. 235 00:18:29,960 --> 00:18:37,119 So just getting the attitude like I'm very shortsighted, I've had asthma. I'm 236 00:18:37,160 --> 00:18:41,960 not scared of trying to fix things and improve things. And I think having 237 00:18:42,000 --> 00:18:48,319 this attitude that you know, been well mentally and putting yourself in a position 238 00:18:48,319 --> 00:18:52,559 where you're enjoying life because you're happier. You know, I'm going to try 239 00:18:52,559 --> 00:19:00,119 to use every tool at my disposal and and share about that as well. 240 00:19:00,400 --> 00:19:04,559 Sharing about it as also because that's how I started to learn that these things 241 00:19:04,839 --> 00:19:08,240 other people woke up at three o'clock in the morning because I was talking about 242 00:19:08,279 --> 00:19:11,720 it over drinks with some other business friends actually here at Fishburners, and they're 243 00:19:11,720 --> 00:19:14,119 like, yeah, I do, I do. I'm like, I'm not 244 00:19:14,160 --> 00:19:18,079 the only what like, this is something And the same thing with that story 245 00:19:18,160 --> 00:19:22,119 from stage and the same thing, you know, other people telling me, 246 00:19:22,240 --> 00:19:26,119 oh, I've tried that, and I'm like, oh, okay, yea. 247 00:19:26,720 --> 00:19:30,599 And then I've got a couple of mates now we we chat about everything 248 00:19:30,640 --> 00:19:34,920 that we've done and it's it's good. So sharing with others in that feedback 249 00:19:34,960 --> 00:19:44,240 loom and just understanding that who I am that's not going to change overnight. 250 00:19:44,440 --> 00:19:51,119 None of this is going to change really fast, and that's okay. I 251 00:19:51,160 --> 00:19:53,960 think that's like the very first step, right, I think. I mean, 252 00:19:55,119 --> 00:19:59,039 I started working with a therapist in twenty twenty as well, And the 253 00:19:59,039 --> 00:20:03,440 biggest thing that I I've learned I think so far in therapy is before you 254 00:20:03,480 --> 00:20:06,920 can change anything, you have to accept it. You can't change something that 255 00:20:06,960 --> 00:20:08,839 you can't accept, and just by accepting it, by starting to accept like, 256 00:20:08,880 --> 00:20:11,000 oh, this is how I am, this is how it is. 257 00:20:11,039 --> 00:20:15,920 This is a situation that kind of dissolves like ninety percent of the stress around 258 00:20:15,920 --> 00:20:19,519 it anyway. But it's quite funny. I don't know if you know this. 259 00:20:19,599 --> 00:20:23,480 I got diagnosed with ADHD last year. So for anyone who's listening, 260 00:20:23,799 --> 00:20:29,519 just imagine Mike and I are working in the same business together through people with 261 00:20:29,599 --> 00:20:34,640 ADHD. It was very fun. And the three am, the three am 262 00:20:34,680 --> 00:20:40,440 wake ups. I think that's also something that I've experienced when when I've gone 263 00:20:40,480 --> 00:20:42,960 through periods where I've been really stressed or anxious about something, it's the three 264 00:20:42,960 --> 00:20:47,240 am wake ups. And I'm so glad that we're talking about that today. 265 00:20:47,279 --> 00:20:51,000 That's the main reason I wanted to have this conversation was so that anyone else 266 00:20:51,000 --> 00:20:53,400 who's going through all of that, like they're waking up at three am, 267 00:20:53,440 --> 00:20:56,799 they're feeling stress, they're feeling anxious, they think they might be on the 268 00:20:56,880 --> 00:21:00,119 edge of burnout, a they don't feel as a lot own and be they 269 00:21:00,160 --> 00:21:03,440 know, okay to talk about this stuff, and we need to be talking 270 00:21:03,480 --> 00:21:08,200 about it a little bit more. Mike, you are a classic overachiever, 271 00:21:08,440 --> 00:21:11,799 and you know, having known you for a while now, your first reaction 272 00:21:12,160 --> 00:21:15,400 when there is a problem is to just do more, to throw more energy 273 00:21:15,440 --> 00:21:18,880 at it, throw more resources at it, more time at it. How 274 00:21:18,920 --> 00:21:23,079 did you start to come to terms of doing less and too? Like, 275 00:21:23,960 --> 00:21:29,720 I can't say I was particularly wise about stuff. I just got to a 276 00:21:29,799 --> 00:21:37,720 point last year where I couldn't do anything else. It was basically I was 277 00:21:37,839 --> 00:21:45,559 trapped by my business and my situation in that you know, I really should 278 00:21:45,559 --> 00:21:52,359 have taken time out but extended, but I wasn't in a position too for 279 00:21:52,440 --> 00:21:57,200 lots of reasons. And that then made me, Yeah, really that was 280 00:21:57,240 --> 00:22:02,200 a really huge wakeup call. And it wasn't financial. It was more just 281 00:22:02,240 --> 00:22:06,839 the reality of running a business and throughout it at home and everything like that. 282 00:22:07,200 --> 00:22:11,519 And so yeah, I think the that was a huge wake up call 283 00:22:11,599 --> 00:22:15,640 for me. I mean, I just wasn't well and I lost all motivation. 284 00:22:15,839 --> 00:22:18,119 And I've been a motivated person, as you know, like I've never 285 00:22:19,359 --> 00:22:26,400 until that situation until I got to like November December last year, which coincidentally, 286 00:22:26,599 --> 00:22:30,200 like we'd had great news by that and everything and worked out incredibly well, 287 00:22:30,440 --> 00:22:34,039 like Treaman couldn't have gone any better. But that's when it really hit 288 00:22:34,079 --> 00:22:37,400 me, like, you know, a load of bricks, because I had 289 00:22:37,519 --> 00:22:44,000 you know, I got through the rest of the time. And yeah, 290 00:22:44,079 --> 00:22:47,720 and so I couldn't I couldn't do anything else. I really had to step 291 00:22:47,759 --> 00:22:52,000 back. In November, I recognize there's just no going forward fighting this, 292 00:22:52,119 --> 00:22:56,720 mate, step back, give yourself as long as it takes. Now. 293 00:22:56,759 --> 00:23:00,799 I didn't even do that properly first, and I set myself a goal to 294 00:23:00,839 --> 00:23:06,519 be good bye like Australian Day, which is coming to January when the kids 295 00:23:06,559 --> 00:23:08,960 were going back to school, and the first couple of weeks after that, 296 00:23:10,039 --> 00:23:12,599 everyone comes back from holidays and wants to start projects. So me and my 297 00:23:12,599 --> 00:23:15,400 business set it's like, yeah, I'll be fine by then, I'll be 298 00:23:15,480 --> 00:23:19,599 one hundred percent rare and to go in six weeks or eight weeks. Didn't 299 00:23:19,599 --> 00:23:23,640 work out like that, And again that was a really good lesson, you 300 00:23:23,680 --> 00:23:27,000 know, early February, I'm like, oh, you're not there yet, 301 00:23:27,039 --> 00:23:32,119 mate, like you know, and and again it was a it was a 302 00:23:32,119 --> 00:23:36,480 good lesson. So I've had to learn the hard way. I think that's 303 00:23:36,519 --> 00:23:40,119 also you know, that's such a difficult thing for the overachiever brain to come 304 00:23:40,160 --> 00:23:44,119 to terms with, is that this isn't something that just goes away overnight. 305 00:23:44,240 --> 00:23:47,880 It's not something you can just quickly meditate your way out of and then it's 306 00:23:48,039 --> 00:23:52,200 and then you're back to normal. But I I thought what you said earlier 307 00:23:52,200 --> 00:23:55,680 about you know, you're always pretty motivated. I find that really interesting because 308 00:23:55,720 --> 00:23:59,640 for me, I know, whenever i'm in not in a like, not 309 00:23:59,759 --> 00:24:02,799 in a I've never really had a severe burnout. But whenever I'm starting to 310 00:24:02,799 --> 00:24:03,880 get to that point where it's like, oh I've done a little bit too 311 00:24:04,000 --> 00:24:07,200 much, I'm starting to burn out a little bit, that's when my motivation 312 00:24:07,319 --> 00:24:14,200 drops. And often what keeps me going through that is being motivated by fear. 313 00:24:14,240 --> 00:24:15,799 And I wonder is that something that you can relate to as well? 314 00:24:17,119 --> 00:24:22,759 Ye? Yeah, Look, because I am naturally motivated just just away am. 315 00:24:22,759 --> 00:24:29,279 I've always had a drive and I really like what I do as well, 316 00:24:29,440 --> 00:24:34,759 I actually do, and so if that goes away, that going away 317 00:24:34,880 --> 00:24:40,559 was really strange to me. I couldn't I couldn't even end. But then 318 00:24:40,599 --> 00:24:45,319 it flowed on to other things in my life. And you know, I 319 00:24:45,359 --> 00:24:51,559 think this is now making me remember some of the signs like I love my 320 00:24:51,640 --> 00:24:55,319 rugular league, I love my Broncos, I love my sports generally, and 321 00:24:55,359 --> 00:24:59,559 all of a sudden, I wasn't enjoying that as much, and so at 322 00:24:59,599 --> 00:25:02,799 that be another sign, you know, for me, it was a lack 323 00:25:02,799 --> 00:25:06,759 of motivation, and I could get through because I was you know, I 324 00:25:06,880 --> 00:25:11,799 was worried, but it just didn't feel as fun and as it didn't feel 325 00:25:11,839 --> 00:25:15,799 like you know, I've been the TGIM guy in my life. I like 326 00:25:15,960 --> 00:25:22,680 Monday. I like to get back to things, and then that didn't happen, 327 00:25:22,680 --> 00:25:29,920 and Monday became hugely anxiety ridden and stressful. Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday. 328 00:25:30,119 --> 00:25:33,519 By Wednesday I said, feeling normal Thursday Friday as a normal person, 329 00:25:33,880 --> 00:25:37,160 and I'd go back on the cycle again. So yeah, there's a bit 330 00:25:37,200 --> 00:25:41,680 to unpack there, but definitely the dropping motivation, it was really strange to 331 00:25:41,720 --> 00:25:45,279 me. I couldn't get my head around what's going on, and then just 332 00:25:45,400 --> 00:25:52,799 not enjoying stuff like like I used to do. M that's so interesting and 333 00:25:52,920 --> 00:25:56,400 like the feeling of like you're forcing it right, You're you're not things aren't 334 00:25:56,400 --> 00:26:00,440 just flowing nicely in your business and it's not. And obviously they can't always 335 00:26:00,440 --> 00:26:03,880 flow and it can't always feel easy, but I think those are some pretty 336 00:26:03,880 --> 00:26:08,400 big signs that something's not quite right. If you're not feeling motivated, if 337 00:26:08,400 --> 00:26:14,240 you're forcing it, if you're feeling that anxiety around work. It's a stage 338 00:26:14,279 --> 00:26:18,240 of stress, right, like one of the state we talked about these stages, 339 00:26:18,400 --> 00:26:23,279 like during this normal stage and when you look at my psychologists, great 340 00:26:23,279 --> 00:26:27,480 he draws all these great like diagrams for me, and my brain really works 341 00:26:27,519 --> 00:26:33,319 so that these certain things require amount of stress to do to motivate you. 342 00:26:33,799 --> 00:26:37,519 But once you pass that threshold, your performance goes down, right right down. 343 00:26:40,000 --> 00:26:45,440 And so yeah, and if you're really at the height, you know 344 00:26:45,599 --> 00:26:52,240 you've gone past it being just uncomfortable and it's literally in the free free card 345 00:26:52,319 --> 00:26:56,599 zone. A lot of things. You become too stressed to engage them, 346 00:26:56,680 --> 00:27:04,640 like watching TV even or listen to like And then I became really really like, 347 00:27:06,759 --> 00:27:11,319 what's the best word, you know, fidgety, and I'm just shifting 348 00:27:11,400 --> 00:27:17,000 between so many things again kind of a personality thing, But that was a 349 00:27:17,039 --> 00:27:22,079 good signal to me. You can't keep focused because you can't even sit down 350 00:27:22,079 --> 00:27:26,880 and watch TV. Yeah, Yeah, somebody else who might be in those 351 00:27:27,160 --> 00:27:33,319 early stages of you know, there's sometimes feel a little bit demotivated and maybe 352 00:27:33,400 --> 00:27:37,400 wondering or maybe I'm a little bit burnt out. With your benefit of hindsight, 353 00:27:37,440 --> 00:27:40,319 now, what advice would you give to them? Like, what do 354 00:27:40,359 --> 00:27:45,000 you wish you had done a few years ago? Yeah, I just wish 355 00:27:45,000 --> 00:27:48,359 i'd put my sun screen on, I'd learned that lesson. I wish I 356 00:27:48,400 --> 00:27:53,799 had taken it more seriously, that there was a real cost like physical, 357 00:27:56,039 --> 00:28:02,559 financial, and you know, emotional and you know, relate costs all across 358 00:28:02,599 --> 00:28:07,200 the board. So yeah, I would have recognized that. I would have 359 00:28:07,279 --> 00:28:11,240 known that I had more support there and that you could make things better as 360 00:28:11,240 --> 00:28:17,079 well. It wasn't just a necessity that that's how I have to be just 361 00:28:17,720 --> 00:28:23,039 burning myself out until I burn out. And this is what I have to 362 00:28:23,079 --> 00:28:27,400 remind myself of now all the time, like every day, and that good 363 00:28:27,440 --> 00:28:34,640 habits good food. There's such a link between food alcohol our daily habits. 364 00:28:34,960 --> 00:28:38,640 Again, this is I'm just kind of learning this now. It's hard when 365 00:28:38,680 --> 00:28:42,920 you're in your mid forties and you've got bad keep making the same mistakes, 366 00:28:44,039 --> 00:28:49,240 but like you know, learning the effect of too much alcohol for me and 367 00:28:51,480 --> 00:28:56,319 that feeding in and the wrong food feeding in its hugely impactful from a mental 368 00:28:56,359 --> 00:29:00,240 health perspective, and it's really hard. I mean, we Australia in particular, 369 00:29:00,279 --> 00:29:03,279 we do have such a culture of you get home from work and you 370 00:29:03,480 --> 00:29:07,680 open a beer or you have a glass of wine, and that's very normal 371 00:29:07,759 --> 00:29:11,680 in our society. And then yeah, realizing having the wisdom of like, 372 00:29:11,720 --> 00:29:14,920 oh, I know, if I drink a little bit tonight, I'm not 373 00:29:14,920 --> 00:29:17,240 going to sleep as well, and then I'm going to feel awful tomorrow. 374 00:29:17,279 --> 00:29:21,279 And then it becomes this vicious circle that for me is also been something that 375 00:29:21,920 --> 00:29:25,079 I've been I won't say that I've given up drinking. I definitely haven't, 376 00:29:26,200 --> 00:29:30,319 but I've definitely become a lot more aware of how it impacts my own sleep, 377 00:29:30,400 --> 00:29:33,440 my own mental health, my own ability to show up as a business 378 00:29:33,480 --> 00:29:37,279 owner as well. I've given up the big sessions. I must say, 379 00:29:37,480 --> 00:29:44,799 like I've probably had one or two in this year because I just feel rubbish. 380 00:29:44,839 --> 00:29:47,759 But I will have a couple. I will have a glass or two 381 00:29:47,880 --> 00:29:52,119 one most nights. But but for me, it's the I guess an evolution 382 00:29:52,359 --> 00:29:57,839 with fat and it is useful in the you know, in the short term 383 00:29:57,920 --> 00:30:02,720 as well. Other thing like you've got you know, we talk about having 384 00:30:02,720 --> 00:30:07,960 a menu of items to select from to help manage your anxiety and stress and 385 00:30:07,000 --> 00:30:10,759 any time, and you need to work out what those things are for you 386 00:30:10,960 --> 00:30:15,960 so that you've got them on hand and it's okay right again, you know, 387 00:30:15,480 --> 00:30:18,839 look, someone who might know better about health mindset. No, it's 388 00:30:18,880 --> 00:30:22,200 not okay to have drinks. I will say, if that's on your menu, 389 00:30:22,440 --> 00:30:29,759 it's much better to have that they're not. Just make sure that you 390 00:30:29,799 --> 00:30:36,880 know the menu is delivering the release and what you need so you can function. 391 00:30:36,920 --> 00:30:40,440 And everyone's menu is different as well, and everyone's like stress amounts are 392 00:30:40,440 --> 00:30:44,240 different, and having stress is not a bad thing. Like can you imagine, 393 00:30:44,640 --> 00:30:47,400 you know, just my business stress. Okay, that's fine, But 394 00:30:47,480 --> 00:30:49,680 what if you're you know, you're drive an ambulance, or you're a paramedic, 395 00:30:49,920 --> 00:30:56,160 or you're a police officer or a million of the really stressful jobs that 396 00:30:56,240 --> 00:30:59,720 you can't change, but you're better be good at dealing with the stress. 397 00:31:00,160 --> 00:31:06,039 Entrepreneurism is stressful, but I think it's you know, it's not being a 398 00:31:06,039 --> 00:31:11,200 paramedic, not from my perspective, it might be more lonely because we have 399 00:31:11,279 --> 00:31:14,839 a lack of connection, so there's other things going on. But yeah, 400 00:31:14,920 --> 00:31:18,880 like whatever it is, there are lifestyle changes you can make to manage it, 401 00:31:18,920 --> 00:31:23,920 because there's people out there doing amazing things who do manage it. Yeah, 402 00:31:25,279 --> 00:31:27,559 although the way I think about it though, like you know a paramedic 403 00:31:27,640 --> 00:31:32,960 or a firefighter or somebody who's in those situations, it's short amounts of stress. 404 00:31:32,960 --> 00:31:36,000 Whereas entrepreneurship a lot of the time, especially when you have a team, 405 00:31:36,000 --> 00:31:41,200 as things start to grow, it's this long term, persistent stress and 406 00:31:41,359 --> 00:31:42,640 it can grow and it can grow and it can grow, and there's never 407 00:31:42,680 --> 00:31:47,400 really a relief from it. Yeah, well that's that's true. And it's 408 00:31:47,480 --> 00:31:52,119 actually a fair bit of study around like the ancillary kind of stress and the 409 00:31:52,160 --> 00:31:57,039 weight of that and interesting things about just with commutes for instance, like on 410 00:31:57,119 --> 00:32:00,640 a little bit of a different topic, but additive nature of stress for me, 411 00:32:01,039 --> 00:32:04,839 this is the other bit. It's not about negative and bad things. 412 00:32:05,000 --> 00:32:09,440 I think I didn't understand that. It was just it wasn't about bad things 413 00:32:09,440 --> 00:32:15,039 happening. It wasn't about me feeling good or bad. That's it's not it 414 00:32:15,119 --> 00:32:19,960 wasn't about that. It was literally like the sedimentary rock, like adding a 415 00:32:20,039 --> 00:32:23,119 layer and a layer, and the good things sometimes would be the stuff that 416 00:32:23,240 --> 00:32:28,079 knocked me over the top. I'd have a great weekend and I'd be so 417 00:32:28,359 --> 00:32:31,759 energizing stuff, but it was just my cup was just so full by that 418 00:32:31,880 --> 00:32:38,400 stage. And then what was the result anxiety? You know, And so 419 00:32:38,559 --> 00:32:44,880 it's it's not bad things all the time. Those things tend to be quite 420 00:32:44,920 --> 00:32:47,920 weighty, but it might just be too much of everything. Yeah, that 421 00:32:49,000 --> 00:32:52,079 makes sense. Yeah. And then with you know, with having a team 422 00:32:52,160 --> 00:32:57,720 and being a leader through all while you're navigating all of this, how did 423 00:32:57,720 --> 00:33:00,799 you show up with your team? How'd you communicate to team that, hey, 424 00:33:00,880 --> 00:33:04,839 guys like this is kind of what's going on. What kind of conversations 425 00:33:04,839 --> 00:33:07,839 did you have with them? It was hard. I just I've always like 426 00:33:08,000 --> 00:33:13,599 I'm lucky, like it always been pretty adult saying, yeah, obviously the 427 00:33:13,680 --> 00:33:17,279 situation it's difficult, I'm struggling, and this is what I need to do 428 00:33:17,319 --> 00:33:22,119 about it. I've just enjoyed the people I've got to work with and for 429 00:33:22,279 --> 00:33:28,279 me, so it's never been a burden from that perspective for me. No, 430 00:33:28,400 --> 00:33:31,559 I just told everyone what's done on just very and even even if I 431 00:33:31,680 --> 00:33:35,599 say, look, I think next week I'm going to have quite a time 432 00:33:35,640 --> 00:33:38,400 of it, which means my days I might be at work from you know, 433 00:33:38,759 --> 00:33:44,440 eight till two, and then I'll have the afternoons to myself. I'll 434 00:33:44,519 --> 00:33:49,079 generally like just let the team know. We're completely flexible. I've got a 435 00:33:49,079 --> 00:33:53,440 complete flexible attitude towards work as well with the team. So I'm very open 436 00:33:53,599 --> 00:33:58,960 and I think it's a good thing because we're a human business. I've never 437 00:33:59,000 --> 00:34:05,319 pretended to be anything else, and I've just been really lucky, you know 438 00:34:05,480 --> 00:34:13,239 core bit of who I hire really responsible self starters and probably you know who 439 00:34:13,559 --> 00:34:16,719 been through stuff in life as well and have the personality to understand it. 440 00:34:17,400 --> 00:34:22,920 Yeah. Absolutely, And then you know, thinking about like the next few 441 00:34:22,960 --> 00:34:25,719 steps and your business, like the next iteration of your business. You know, 442 00:34:27,039 --> 00:34:30,760 what does that look like going forward, and what are you going to 443 00:34:30,800 --> 00:34:36,599 be doing differently to make sure that you're managing your stress levels and avoid yourself 444 00:34:36,599 --> 00:34:40,840 burning out like this again in the future. Being more patient. That's been 445 00:34:40,880 --> 00:34:46,000 a big thing for me, you know, taking away the the pressure of 446 00:34:47,280 --> 00:34:52,880 ex outcome from a financial perspective, or whatever perspective. So just focusing on 447 00:34:52,920 --> 00:34:58,880 the controllables, which for us is doing really good quality work first and foremost, 448 00:34:59,159 --> 00:35:06,039 and yeah, hiring people to do things and taking things off my plate 449 00:35:06,079 --> 00:35:10,000 and stop being a control freak about that's a huge bit, right, And 450 00:35:10,119 --> 00:35:16,400 like I'm like a perfectionist control freak with high expectations. And I think I'm 451 00:35:16,800 --> 00:35:23,199 certainly recently seeing how great it is when I've hired some great people who I 452 00:35:23,239 --> 00:35:30,119 don't need to like over manage. I actually don't like I'm managing people anyway. 453 00:35:30,119 --> 00:35:34,840 It's just not it's not a string, So hire a smarter and the 454 00:35:35,000 --> 00:35:40,280 aim is to keep building out the business. So we're doing better work and 455 00:35:40,320 --> 00:35:47,000 better work and better work, and it's good people and everyone's happy doing what 456 00:35:47,039 --> 00:35:51,599 they're doing, and they're progressing in their own profession and their own skills, 457 00:35:52,320 --> 00:35:55,719 and I think that'll look after itself. And then beyond that, putting a 458 00:35:55,760 --> 00:36:00,880 sun screen on, you know every day I train or go for a walk 459 00:36:00,079 --> 00:36:05,199 or i'd do something, you know like that, and starting to take holidays, 460 00:36:05,280 --> 00:36:09,239 like you know, we're going on a trip, the first one. 461 00:36:09,320 --> 00:36:16,920 I've probably been on media for at least nine eight years, and so I 462 00:36:16,920 --> 00:36:22,719 didn't realize, but until December this year, I hadn't taken you know, 463 00:36:22,760 --> 00:36:30,320 I hadn't taken any any extendedly more than Easter. So I only take to 464 00:36:30,360 --> 00:36:37,559 Christmas holidays. I'd take you from Christmas Eve until basically mid Jam, and 465 00:36:37,599 --> 00:36:43,000 then I would take some days to Eastern I was having nothing until last year 466 00:36:43,039 --> 00:36:45,719 in November when we took a week and we went to the coast, and 467 00:36:45,760 --> 00:36:52,360 I felt like a different human being straight away. So I'll be doing more 468 00:36:52,400 --> 00:36:57,519 of that. There's a lot to be you think about this stuff, but 469 00:36:58,119 --> 00:37:00,639 yeah, it's just so hard to get away, Like the stress of getting 470 00:37:00,679 --> 00:37:06,719 away as well as always something that I just really struggle with. Yeah, 471 00:37:06,760 --> 00:37:08,000 and I'm sure it's different. Obviously you've got kids, so it has to 472 00:37:08,000 --> 00:37:10,360 line up with school, holidays and everything. But for me, I mean, 473 00:37:10,400 --> 00:37:13,880 I've just found the only way to make it happen is to put it 474 00:37:13,880 --> 00:37:17,559 into my calendar and then I just have to work everything around it. But 475 00:37:17,679 --> 00:37:23,679 having that space to allow yourself to be bored, it's so it's magical. 476 00:37:23,760 --> 00:37:27,920 I'm excited for you, like I can't wait for you to be bored necessary 477 00:37:28,320 --> 00:37:31,880 like I have to be to do good work. That's out. That's as 478 00:37:31,920 --> 00:37:37,480 a you know, as a creative person doing strategy especially and the busier I 479 00:37:37,559 --> 00:37:43,920 am. It's not conducive to good it's good work. There is a necessity 480 00:37:44,280 --> 00:37:50,039 for time and for things to to cook over in my head, yes, 481 00:37:50,519 --> 00:37:54,760 slowly, while I'm not engaging a million other things, exactly. All right, 482 00:37:54,840 --> 00:37:58,800 Last question, Mike, one that I ask all of my guests on 483 00:37:58,840 --> 00:38:02,079 this show, was the time that you took imperfect action in your business or 484 00:38:02,119 --> 00:38:09,760 in your life when I haven't? I? Ah, Look, I think 485 00:38:09,800 --> 00:38:15,000 starting the podcast way back when was this great imperfect action. I've been thinking 486 00:38:15,039 --> 00:38:19,880 about it recently. I'm starting mine up again, and I didn't have I 487 00:38:20,000 --> 00:38:22,840 wasn't even clear and why what I was going to end up in. I 488 00:38:22,880 --> 00:38:28,239 just knew it was a good idea, yeah, And it took us seven 489 00:38:28,280 --> 00:38:31,760 or eight months to finally started and through all of that, and I really 490 00:38:31,760 --> 00:38:37,039 didn't know it would end up in this where I am now, Like every 491 00:38:37,079 --> 00:38:40,480 step in your life, right, But I'm so glad that I went on 492 00:38:40,800 --> 00:38:45,760 journey because the people I meant, what I learned about myself, what I 493 00:38:45,840 --> 00:38:52,559 learned about brand and business. So yeah, I think stepping out and taking 494 00:38:52,559 --> 00:38:58,960 that big anxious podcasts. Risk was you know, imperfect action. Lots of 495 00:38:59,000 --> 00:39:02,480 what I do is imperfect action because I think a lot of us, what 496 00:39:02,960 --> 00:39:07,920 differentiates a lot of entrepreneurs is the building the plane on the way down. 497 00:39:08,199 --> 00:39:13,800 And you have to be a little bit crazy to do what we do because 498 00:39:14,360 --> 00:39:19,960 a lot creepy because the reality and I've try to slab and I talked about 499 00:39:19,960 --> 00:39:22,440 this all the time, the reality is that I'd start a lot of things 500 00:39:23,000 --> 00:39:28,719 without that, you know, perfect outcome perfect. I just know it's a 501 00:39:28,719 --> 00:39:32,760 good thing to do, and so I have to do it, and I 502 00:39:32,800 --> 00:39:37,920 think that's imperfect action. Yeah. I love that. Awesome, Mike. 503 00:39:37,000 --> 00:39:42,599 Thank you so much for sharing so much about your story, your journey, 504 00:39:43,159 --> 00:39:47,159 all of the all of the difficult conversations that I think nobody really talks about 505 00:39:47,199 --> 00:39:50,519 and that we need to be talking about a lot more. So, thank 506 00:39:50,559 --> 00:39:53,440 you so much for sharing so openly and so honestly with me today and with 507 00:39:53,480 --> 00:39:57,400 our listeners today. No worries, seth love it to be here. All 508 00:39:57,480 --> 00:40:00,320 right. That is it for today's episode. If you have any friends you 509 00:40:00,360 --> 00:40:05,719 think would benefit from listening to this episode, please do tell them about it. 510 00:40:05,719 --> 00:40:07,599 It's how I get to help more people. And if you haven't already 511 00:40:07,639 --> 00:40:12,840 hit the follow button in Spotify or the plus button in Apple Podcasts, make 512 00:40:12,880 --> 00:40:15,679 sure you do so so you get brand new episodes delivered to your podcast every 513 00:40:15,719 --> 00:40:21,039 Monday or Wednesday and Friday. Thank you so much for listening, Catch you 514 00:40:21,159 --> 00:40:21,519 next time.