1 00:00:01,080 --> 00:00:07,200 You're listening to the Mind Over Murder podcast. My name is Bill Thomas. 2 00:00:07,759 --> 00:00:12,039 I'm a writer, consulting, producer, and now podcaster. I am now 3 00:00:12,080 --> 00:00:16,000 trying to use my experience as the brother of a murder victim to help other 4 00:00:16,079 --> 00:00:20,239 victims of violent crime. I'm working on a book on the unsolved Colonial Parkway 5 00:00:20,320 --> 00:00:24,640 murders, and I'm the co administrator of the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook group together 6 00:00:24,679 --> 00:00:28,440 with Kristin Dilley. My name is Kristin Dilley. I'm a writer, a 7 00:00:28,519 --> 00:00:32,439 researcher, a teacher, and a victim's advocate, as well as the social 8 00:00:32,479 --> 00:00:37,759 media manager and co administrator for the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook page with my partner 9 00:00:37,799 --> 00:00:50,640 in crime, Bill Thomas. Welcome to Mind Ever Murder. I'm Kristin Dilley. 10 00:00:50,880 --> 00:00:57,399 I'm Bill Thomas, and you sound incredibly chipper. I am exhausted at 11 00:00:57,439 --> 00:01:00,799 the end of a school day, but I'm pulling it together for our listeners 12 00:01:00,159 --> 00:01:04,560 so that they get the absolute best of me. I like it. You're 13 00:01:04,680 --> 00:01:11,400 inspiring, You're energetic, how smiling. I'm going for it. I hope 14 00:01:11,439 --> 00:01:17,680 it comes through in my voice, you know. So we're here for We're 15 00:01:17,719 --> 00:01:22,840 here to be inspirational and energetic, and we hope that everybody who listens really 16 00:01:22,920 --> 00:01:25,920 enjoys listening to us. We are here for you, I hope. So 17 00:01:26,719 --> 00:01:30,319 damn you're sounding pretty convincing, mayor girl. I know right the Bill's the 18 00:01:30,359 --> 00:01:34,840 only person who can see the manic smile on my face. But you know, 19 00:01:34,959 --> 00:01:38,040 yeah, I'm good. Well, you've got that snack in after getting 20 00:01:38,079 --> 00:01:42,159 home from school and you're good to go. I am good to go, 21 00:01:42,519 --> 00:01:47,760 can confirm. So we want to make sure that we take a couple of 22 00:01:47,840 --> 00:01:53,079 minutes here at the top and talk about a wonderful event that Bill and I 23 00:01:53,159 --> 00:01:57,200 are both blessed to be able to take part in that is coming later in 24 00:01:57,319 --> 00:02:04,079 October, and that is a memorial for Keith Call. Bill, you want 25 00:02:04,079 --> 00:02:06,840 to fill us in on some details. I know you did press about this 26 00:02:06,959 --> 00:02:12,400 earlier today. I did. The wonderful people from the Cumberland Historic Cemetery Organization, 27 00:02:13,000 --> 00:02:16,000 a guy named Ed Taylor, had reached out to the Call family and 28 00:02:16,039 --> 00:02:23,039 they've put together a really wonderful program to commemorate Keith Call's life and mark its 29 00:02:23,120 --> 00:02:29,719 passing. And as I was talking about with a reporter earlier today, when 30 00:02:29,719 --> 00:02:35,199 you have missing people like Keith Call and Cassandra Hailey, there's never a memorial 31 00:02:35,360 --> 00:02:38,159 or a funeral or something like that to mark their passing, because, of 32 00:02:38,159 --> 00:02:42,120 course, you know, the hope is that they'll come home someday or the 33 00:02:42,240 --> 00:02:46,560 doorbell will ring and there they'll be. Obviously, that hasn't happened, unlike 34 00:02:46,599 --> 00:02:52,520 the rest of us in the colonial Parkway murders who sadly ended up receiving our 35 00:02:52,599 --> 00:02:55,759 loved ones back so we had their remains, and then typically there's a funeral 36 00:02:55,919 --> 00:03:00,199 or a memorial service or something like that. That never happened in the missing 37 00:03:00,199 --> 00:03:06,080 person's case, at least not typically. So when the Cumberland Historic Cemetery Organization 38 00:03:06,199 --> 00:03:12,039 or HCO approach the Call family, Joyce Call Canada consulted with her brothers and 39 00:03:12,199 --> 00:03:15,120 they thought, as a family, this is a great idea. So what 40 00:03:15,159 --> 00:03:21,319 they're gonna do is they're going to add a beautiful commemorative stone to the family 41 00:03:21,400 --> 00:03:27,000 plot where the Calls are buried at Rosevelt Cemetery in Hayes, Virginia. And 42 00:03:27,039 --> 00:03:30,439 so on Saturday, October fourteenth, at two pm, there'll be an event 43 00:03:30,479 --> 00:03:34,599 that's open to the public. All are welcome to attend and there'll be a 44 00:03:34,599 --> 00:03:38,159 dedication of this memorial stone. I think it's going to be a wonderful event. 45 00:03:38,439 --> 00:03:43,840 I am looking forward to speaking. Although I am generally averse to public 46 00:03:43,919 --> 00:03:49,080 speaking of any kind, I am perfectly fine second up in dealing with it 47 00:03:49,120 --> 00:03:52,840 in order to do this for the Call family, because I feel like it's 48 00:03:52,919 --> 00:03:58,400 very worthwhile and I'm really pleased that this is happening. And let's take a 49 00:03:58,400 --> 00:04:02,759 moment, indeed to shout out Ed Taylor, who has really done the legwork 50 00:04:02,840 --> 00:04:08,360 on this and has made this really wonderful and moving gesture. Ed is a 51 00:04:08,360 --> 00:04:12,240 listener, So Ed, thank you very much from all of us, all 52 00:04:12,240 --> 00:04:15,479 the Colonial Parkway murders families and us here at my Never Murder. We really 53 00:04:15,520 --> 00:04:18,120 do appreciate the work you've put into this. I can't say enough wonderful things 54 00:04:18,160 --> 00:04:23,959 about mister Taylor and the HCO. Mister Taylor is going to speak, Rick 55 00:04:24,079 --> 00:04:29,000 Allen will be doing invocation. Our friend Blaine Pardo, who's the author of 56 00:04:29,040 --> 00:04:31,519 a Special Kind of Evil, the book on the Colonial Parkway Murders, will 57 00:04:31,560 --> 00:04:36,160 speak. I will speak, Kristen Deli will also speak, and then Andy 58 00:04:36,199 --> 00:04:41,800 Fox of w a v Y TV ten, who has been covering this case 59 00:04:41,879 --> 00:04:46,399 for thirty seven years, which is we'll also speak and then members of the 60 00:04:46,480 --> 00:04:50,160 Call family will be there. I think it's going to be a lovely event, 61 00:04:50,360 --> 00:04:54,959 and his two brothers, Doug and Steve, and Call are actually going 62 00:04:55,040 --> 00:05:00,920 to unveil this monument, which is basically an addition to the family plot or 63 00:05:00,959 --> 00:05:04,160 the Call family, and the hope is that someday, when Keith and Sandy's 64 00:05:04,199 --> 00:05:10,480 remains are recovered and this case is solved, that Keith would be interred in 65 00:05:10,519 --> 00:05:14,680 the family plot. This is a nice way to acknowledge the family's loss. 66 00:05:15,000 --> 00:05:18,079 Yes, Keith's life. There are things you can do now with a memorial 67 00:05:18,160 --> 00:05:23,319 stone that you couldn't do that many years ago. So this actually incorporates a 68 00:05:23,319 --> 00:05:26,959 beautiful picture of Keith and a little write up about him as a young man. 69 00:05:27,759 --> 00:05:31,199 I thought it was beautifully done. Everyone is welcome and you'd be more 70 00:05:31,240 --> 00:05:35,560 than welcome to attend at two o'clock on Saturday, October fourteenth. Yeah, 71 00:05:35,680 --> 00:05:40,480 looking forward to it. We certainly hope that we will see a number of 72 00:05:40,480 --> 00:05:43,680 our listeners out there, if they're so inclined. We're going to get back 73 00:05:43,720 --> 00:05:48,759 to our third episode of Ask Us Anything, because we just keep getting questions 74 00:05:48,959 --> 00:05:54,360 about this case, which we are so thankful for. Thank you to everyone 75 00:05:54,439 --> 00:05:58,439 who asks the questions and wants to know more about the case and helps to 76 00:05:58,560 --> 00:06:01,720 keep it alive. We appreciate ate it. This section is going to be 77 00:06:02,279 --> 00:06:12,879 the DNA and FGG Forensic genetic genealogy question section because we had so many of 78 00:06:12,920 --> 00:06:17,920 them. They all do hinge around this first sixty four thousand dollars question and 79 00:06:17,920 --> 00:06:21,399 we're going to attribute it to Kathy Marie because she's the first person, but 80 00:06:21,480 --> 00:06:26,439 certainly not the last person to ask about it. So Kathy Marie asks, 81 00:06:26,879 --> 00:06:33,040 drumroll please, any chance DNA will be tested in the Colonial Parkway murders. 82 00:06:33,560 --> 00:06:39,160 Well, the truth is, Kathy, that DNA evidence has been tested in 83 00:06:39,160 --> 00:06:43,560 the Colonial Parkway murders. From what we understand, and this is from law 84 00:06:43,639 --> 00:06:47,600 enforcement to the Colonial Parkway Murders families, we have potential. We have to 85 00:06:47,680 --> 00:06:55,639 underline that potential offender DNA in three of the four crime scenes in the Colonial 86 00:06:55,680 --> 00:07:01,000 Parkway murders, So Thomas Dowski, Edwards Nobbling, and in Call Haley there 87 00:07:01,120 --> 00:07:08,920 is some DNA evidence. Finally, in Phelps Lauer incident number four on Interstate 88 00:07:09,040 --> 00:07:12,519 sixty four. That's the one where their bodies were found at the Hunt Club 89 00:07:13,000 --> 00:07:16,680 after being out in the weather for six weeks. To my knowledge, we 90 00:07:16,759 --> 00:07:21,839 don't appear to have any DNA evidence at this point. So DNA testing has 91 00:07:21,920 --> 00:07:28,279 been done. Here's the challenge, though so far nothing has proven to be 92 00:07:28,439 --> 00:07:31,240 a match. If you have DNA, remember you have to be testing it 93 00:07:31,439 --> 00:07:36,279 against something, so for example, they might upload it to the FBI CODIS 94 00:07:36,560 --> 00:07:42,759 database. If there's no match, that's where you are at that point. 95 00:07:42,839 --> 00:07:47,079 Now have they chosen to do forensic genetic genealogy. That's a whole separate question. 96 00:07:47,199 --> 00:07:53,079 But there has been DNA testing. What the families in the Colonial Parkway 97 00:07:53,120 --> 00:07:58,319 murders are looking for is additional testing. Kathy Murray's question is a really good 98 00:07:58,360 --> 00:08:03,600 one. I recognize the answer isn't quite as simple as the question was. 99 00:08:03,240 --> 00:08:09,199 This actually is a good follow up to that from Sarah T. And Sarah 100 00:08:09,279 --> 00:08:13,839 asks, can you elaborate on whether law enforcement will do any DNA testing on 101 00:08:15,079 --> 00:08:20,600 any of the suspects from the nineteen eighty six to nineteen eighty nine time frame? 102 00:08:20,040 --> 00:08:24,800 And we'd like to remind you from last time, folks that the long 103 00:08:24,839 --> 00:08:28,959 list is one hundred and fifty people, and the shortlist is probably smaller than 104 00:08:30,000 --> 00:08:35,759 that bill do we know if law enforcement has actually compared here's our short list, 105 00:08:35,879 --> 00:08:39,279 here's our long list, and here's DNA or are they not telling us? 106 00:08:39,759 --> 00:08:43,000 They're mostly not telling us. Now, keep in mind you've got one 107 00:08:43,039 --> 00:08:46,759 hundred and fifty persons of interest, and this is just completely my guest. 108 00:08:46,879 --> 00:08:50,919 Let's say there's ten or fifteen people on the short list. We do have 109 00:08:50,000 --> 00:08:54,799 to be respectful and law enforcement has to be respectful of the fact that no 110 00:08:54,840 --> 00:09:01,200 one is guilty of anything until they've been charged and then ultimately convicted in a 111 00:09:01,279 --> 00:09:07,039 court of law. People will kick around different suspects names and ideas about how 112 00:09:07,080 --> 00:09:09,360 they might be involved in the Colonial Parkway murders, and I've done plenty of 113 00:09:09,399 --> 00:09:15,879 it, and Kristen has two. We can't be publicly accusing someone of being 114 00:09:15,919 --> 00:09:22,600 involved until law enforcement has identified someone as being a suspect and then ultimately has 115 00:09:22,679 --> 00:09:26,799 indicted them charged them in a court of law. So again the answer gets 116 00:09:26,919 --> 00:09:33,240 kind of nuanced. We do sometimes say publicly the names of some of the 117 00:09:33,320 --> 00:09:39,519 suspects who've passed on and offered what we might know about whether DNA testing has 118 00:09:39,559 --> 00:09:45,320 been done with any of those suspects. Beyond that, we're kind of restricted, 119 00:09:45,399 --> 00:09:48,080 even though we're civilians. There's a legal process here, and you can't 120 00:09:48,080 --> 00:09:52,120 just say, well, I think so and so is involved in the Colonial 121 00:09:52,159 --> 00:09:54,840 Parkway murders, and I'm going to state so publicly. I don't think that's 122 00:09:54,879 --> 00:09:58,879 a smart thing to do, and it's probably not an appropriate thing to do. 123 00:10:00,120 --> 00:10:03,799 We know for a fact that DNA testing has been done on people's suspected 124 00:10:03,879 --> 00:10:07,679 of involvement. I don't know that we can say that publicly. Robin C 125 00:10:09,080 --> 00:10:13,279 also asks a similar question, although I don't know that we're going to be 126 00:10:13,279 --> 00:10:18,399 able to answer this one unfortunately. Robin C asks how often does the FBI 127 00:10:18,600 --> 00:10:24,399 run the DNA found at any of the crime scenes against codus for any new 128 00:10:24,600 --> 00:10:28,360 hits? And I think it's a great question, and it's a valuable one, 129 00:10:28,399 --> 00:10:31,159 but I don't know that we know an answer, do we. I 130 00:10:31,200 --> 00:10:33,759 don't think we do know an answer here. I would love to know that. 131 00:10:33,960 --> 00:10:39,279 I think it would be a really interesting question to ask to our current 132 00:10:39,320 --> 00:10:45,559 agent and see whether they are able to speak to that or Now I'm shaking 133 00:10:45,559 --> 00:10:48,000 my head because I know they're going to tell us they can't tell us. 134 00:10:48,519 --> 00:10:52,600 Yes, it's a great question, Robin, And unfortunately, for a lot 135 00:10:52,600 --> 00:10:58,519 of the questions with relation to DNA, we do have to basically say we 136 00:10:58,559 --> 00:11:01,480 would love to know that too, but we do not know, and the 137 00:11:01,519 --> 00:11:05,480 FBI just is not likely to share or my alternative answer, which has excuse 138 00:11:05,559 --> 00:11:09,639 me for a second while I go bang my head against the wall. Yeah, 139 00:11:09,679 --> 00:11:15,639 one thing I will say, to my knowledge in talking to FBI and 140 00:11:16,200 --> 00:11:20,960 forensics experts, I don't think these are automated processes. So, in other 141 00:11:20,960 --> 00:11:26,200 words, I don't think it's a matter of it just happens once a week 142 00:11:26,320 --> 00:11:30,080 or once a month. I am aware of the fact that they have run 143 00:11:30,360 --> 00:11:37,120 DNA profiles in the Colonial Parkway murders against codists and perhaps other databases multiple times. 144 00:11:37,360 --> 00:11:39,840 But I don't think it's something that just happens in a routine manner, 145 00:11:39,960 --> 00:11:43,000 or that's computerized, or you hit a button and say, Okay, every 146 00:11:43,000 --> 00:11:46,679 Monday morning, we're going to run all of our available DNA profiles against the 147 00:11:46,720 --> 00:11:52,000 CODIS or State of Virginia DNA databases. I don't think it happens that way. 148 00:11:52,279 --> 00:11:58,120 I think it does require some action steps by the FBI or Virginia State 149 00:11:58,159 --> 00:12:03,240 Police to make it happen. Now that you've mentioned that, I do kind 150 00:12:03,240 --> 00:12:07,200 of want to know what is stopping that from happening. What would it take, 151 00:12:07,360 --> 00:12:11,600 theoretically, hypothetically to the FBI analysts, who I'm sure is listening to 152 00:12:11,639 --> 00:12:16,799 these podcasts to make sure we're not saying anything on toward what hypothetically would need 153 00:12:16,840 --> 00:12:20,519 to happen to make it an automated process so that you could have here's the 154 00:12:20,600 --> 00:12:26,320 DNA that we have in one file, here's the CODIS database and the other. 155 00:12:26,679 --> 00:12:30,159 Now, let's automate it so that it runs every Monday morning or every 156 00:12:30,159 --> 00:12:33,000 Friday night, so that we come back to work on Monday with brand new 157 00:12:33,080 --> 00:12:37,039 hits. I'm sure that's possible. We have the computing power. How can 158 00:12:37,080 --> 00:12:41,600 we make that happen? I don't know. We're going to have to ask 159 00:12:41,679 --> 00:12:46,799 our colleagues, particularly former FBI folks, if they know the answer to this 160 00:12:46,919 --> 00:12:50,519 question, because I, for one, do not know the answer. I 161 00:12:50,559 --> 00:12:52,360 think this next question is another one that we're going to have to say we 162 00:12:52,399 --> 00:12:54,759 don't know one, but let's go ahead and get it on the record. 163 00:12:54,799 --> 00:13:01,080 Anyway, Mandy g asks, are they meaning the FBI and esp Are they 164 00:13:01,120 --> 00:13:05,279 doing genetic genealogy searches on the DNA in this case yet? And if not, 165 00:13:05,559 --> 00:13:11,279 why not? Mandy, This is a fantastic question. This is the 166 00:13:11,399 --> 00:13:16,039 question I feel like asking every single day. I'm not sure I know the 167 00:13:16,080 --> 00:13:20,159 answer. We have pushed hard and will continue to do so. We feel 168 00:13:20,279 --> 00:13:24,799 very strongly that this evidence should be tested and that we would like to see 169 00:13:24,919 --> 00:13:31,000 all of these open unidentified DNA profiles that are available in the three crime scenes 170 00:13:31,000 --> 00:13:35,679 where we believe we have evidence, we think they should be doing forenic genetic 171 00:13:35,799 --> 00:13:41,360 genealogy. We're going to keep pushing on this. The FBI has established forenictic 172 00:13:41,399 --> 00:13:46,519 genealogy teams on the East Coast and the West Coast. The East Coast is 173 00:13:46,559 --> 00:13:50,879 out of the Baltimore Field Office. They've done some great work. The FBI 174 00:13:50,960 --> 00:13:58,159 has recently helped break cases and including the Gilgal Beach for Long Island serial killer 175 00:13:58,320 --> 00:14:03,240 cases, and they're hoping for more identification as a result of genetic genealogy in 176 00:14:03,279 --> 00:14:07,480 those cases. That work was done by the FBI together with Authram Authorm doing 177 00:14:07,519 --> 00:14:13,000 the lab work, the FBI doing the genealogy. I believe the teams exist. 178 00:14:13,440 --> 00:14:16,960 We just want to get in the queue so that they're doing this work 179 00:14:18,120 --> 00:14:22,200 for the evidence in the Colonial Park my Murders as well. And I think 180 00:14:22,240 --> 00:14:26,320 it's important to note at this point that literally every expert that we know who 181 00:14:26,440 --> 00:14:31,960 is in the DNA or the FGG field has offered carte blanche, we will 182 00:14:33,000 --> 00:14:35,279 do the testing in the Colonial Park, my murder space. We will do 183 00:14:35,320 --> 00:14:39,720 it for free. All that the FBI and the VSP need to do is 184 00:14:39,720 --> 00:14:43,039 give over the evidence. When the FBI said we don't have the money for 185 00:14:43,080 --> 00:14:48,120 that, you don't need money for that. The FBI and the VSP they 186 00:14:48,159 --> 00:14:50,919 have offered to do the work for free. All you need to do is 187 00:14:50,960 --> 00:14:54,159 be willing to give over the evidence. And that's the part that kind of 188 00:14:54,159 --> 00:14:56,519 ticks me off, is they don't seem to be willing to do that. 189 00:14:56,679 --> 00:15:00,159 And it's like, if you can't do anything with it, please give to 190 00:15:00,200 --> 00:15:03,840 a lab that well. Yeah, there's all sorts of weird institutional foot dragging 191 00:15:05,000 --> 00:15:09,360 that's going on here that I find incredibly incredibly frustrating. It seems like there's 192 00:15:09,399 --> 00:15:13,480 one excuse after another, we don't have the funding. Oh when I say 193 00:15:13,840 --> 00:15:16,519 this lab, this lab, and this lab have all offered to test this 194 00:15:16,639 --> 00:15:20,519 evidence at no charge. They know how hard the Colonial Parkway murders families have 195 00:15:20,639 --> 00:15:24,799 worked to try to move this case forward. And I'm not saying that the 196 00:15:24,840 --> 00:15:28,039 FBI, Virginia State Police, and other agencies haven't also worked hard. But 197 00:15:28,120 --> 00:15:31,559 let's just take it that much further and see if we can put this thing 198 00:15:31,559 --> 00:15:37,200 over the goal line. If we could solve one of the Colonial Parkway murders, 199 00:15:37,279 --> 00:15:41,720 I would regard that as an incredible victory, and that might lead us 200 00:15:41,799 --> 00:15:46,639 in other directions. In the other incidents. I just think the foot dragging 201 00:15:46,720 --> 00:15:52,879 and the institutional resistance, and oh, we prefer to do it in house 202 00:15:52,120 --> 00:15:56,519 at our lab where the queue is over a year long, for instance, 203 00:15:56,600 --> 00:16:00,519 at fat Quantico. That's just for kill us. When we have state of 204 00:16:00,559 --> 00:16:04,480 the art labs who've said to us, we'll test your evidence at no charge. 205 00:16:04,759 --> 00:16:07,960 We're going to see a bunch of these people, by the way, 206 00:16:07,039 --> 00:16:11,480 when we're at Crime con very soon. YEP. I can pretty much guarantee 207 00:16:11,600 --> 00:16:15,399 that when I see those folks, they're all going to be asking about the 208 00:16:15,440 --> 00:16:18,679 Colonial Parkway murders. How are things going in your sister's case? And everyone 209 00:16:18,840 --> 00:16:22,919 wants to help, let's accept some of that help and just move forward. 210 00:16:23,000 --> 00:16:29,720 There's enough credit to go around, FBI, Virginia State Police, National Park 211 00:16:29,799 --> 00:16:33,960 Service Police, they've all done great work. Why don't we just push this 212 00:16:33,960 --> 00:16:37,200 thing over the goal line? You know? And it does become a point. 213 00:16:37,480 --> 00:16:40,960 And again I say this for the FBI analyst listening, you reach a 214 00:16:41,000 --> 00:16:45,080 point where if you keep coming up with excuses to turn down the help, 215 00:16:45,399 --> 00:16:49,320 it really does start to smack of cover up or conspiracy. And if you 216 00:16:49,519 --> 00:16:55,440 don't want that to continue, just accept the help. A ton of it 217 00:16:55,519 --> 00:17:00,519 is being offered hands out for free from people who legitimately, really and truly 218 00:17:00,559 --> 00:17:04,119 care about this case and want to see it solved. Please just accept the 219 00:17:04,160 --> 00:17:08,640 help. It's just unfathomable to me why they won't do it. It's one 220 00:17:08,640 --> 00:17:11,519 of those things. Of the many things about this case they keep us up 221 00:17:11,559 --> 00:17:17,000 at night, that is the one I think that is most infuriating. That's 222 00:17:17,000 --> 00:17:21,680 the adjective values. There are many more. It's a family show. We 223 00:17:21,680 --> 00:17:25,680 have to keep it clean. Yeah. The next question comes from Dora T 224 00:17:26,279 --> 00:17:29,920 and Dora writes, I realize it's been an arduous journey. What do you 225 00:17:29,960 --> 00:17:34,319 believe it will take for the FBI to test remaining DNA in this case, 226 00:17:34,400 --> 00:17:40,559 petitions, letters, billboards. Honestly, I cannot fathom this. Hmm, 227 00:17:41,640 --> 00:17:45,000 this is a hard one. I'm going to really have to think about this, 228 00:17:45,359 --> 00:17:48,960 Dora. It's something we do think about a lot. We have done 229 00:17:48,160 --> 00:17:53,480 letters, we've done billboards. I guess a petitions not out of the question. 230 00:17:55,279 --> 00:17:59,640 I don't know that I have a brilliant answer for this, but it's 231 00:17:59,680 --> 00:18:03,400 something I think we're going to have to continue to revisit and figure out. 232 00:18:03,759 --> 00:18:08,759 There are times when I sit here and I quietly think what sequence of switches 233 00:18:08,839 --> 00:18:14,680 do we have to throw in order to get some movement, particularly with the 234 00:18:14,680 --> 00:18:19,440 FBI. Yeah, and it's a really tough thing to figure out. I've 235 00:18:19,519 --> 00:18:25,359 actually asked someone who shall remain nameless, but this is a person that worked 236 00:18:25,400 --> 00:18:29,759 at the DJ for a number of years and knows these people and policies very 237 00:18:29,799 --> 00:18:33,920 well. And I asked this person, in their opinion, would the FBI 238 00:18:33,279 --> 00:18:41,319 ever not solve a case because it was politically embarrassing to them? And when 239 00:18:41,319 --> 00:18:48,079 you think about it, with the leaked crime scene photos and the discarded evidence 240 00:18:48,599 --> 00:18:53,720 and the missed opportunities in the Colonial Parkway murders, I understand that this case 241 00:18:53,839 --> 00:18:57,519 is probably a bit of an embarrassment to the FBI. But I asked the 242 00:18:57,640 --> 00:19:03,519 question, would they ever not solve a case that was politically embarrassing to them? 243 00:19:03,720 --> 00:19:08,200 Their answer, after very careful thought. We talked about this for over 244 00:19:08,319 --> 00:19:12,480 an hour, and I asked a question two different ways, once fairly close 245 00:19:12,519 --> 00:19:15,559 to the top of the conversation, and I revisited at the end of the 246 00:19:15,599 --> 00:19:22,839 conversation. Their reply was yes, And boy, that brought me up short. 247 00:19:23,319 --> 00:19:27,440 There's your conspiracy, there's your cover up, except it's not really a 248 00:19:27,480 --> 00:19:37,240 conspiracy. Do institutional interests supersede case interests and the interests of justice? It 249 00:19:37,319 --> 00:19:41,960 should not, but I fear that it does. I have a real hard 250 00:19:41,960 --> 00:19:47,039 time accepting that, and that's why I revisited the question. After an hour 251 00:19:47,079 --> 00:19:51,240 of discussion, I came back to it and asked a question in what I 252 00:19:51,240 --> 00:19:55,160 thought was a completely different way, and they said yes a second time. 253 00:19:55,519 --> 00:20:02,200 A second time around, they said, sadly yes. Believed even having worked 254 00:20:02,279 --> 00:20:04,960 with this organization, the Federal Bureau of Investigation, for all those years, 255 00:20:06,200 --> 00:20:11,039 they believed that the FBI would fail to solve a case if it was politically 256 00:20:11,079 --> 00:20:17,839 embarrassing to the Bureau and I think that's unacceptable, as do I. Next 257 00:20:17,920 --> 00:20:21,759 question comes from Crystal T, who says I would like an update on the 258 00:20:21,759 --> 00:20:25,240 hair that was found in Cathy's hand. I know it's a huge source of 259 00:20:25,279 --> 00:20:27,680 frustration for you too, but I have to ask. I thought it was 260 00:20:27,720 --> 00:20:32,759 out for testing over a year ago, if my memory serves me correctly. 261 00:20:33,400 --> 00:20:36,279 Well, Crystal, I appreciate the question, even though I'm going to take 262 00:20:36,319 --> 00:20:37,559 a second here and go bang my head against the wall for a bit. 263 00:20:41,200 --> 00:20:47,519 They have done testing, the results have been inconclusive, and I can't seem 264 00:20:47,599 --> 00:20:52,400 to get any answer beyond that point. They just refuse to answer the question. 265 00:20:52,839 --> 00:20:59,200 I have suggested the use of outside labs, as Kristen was talking about 266 00:20:59,240 --> 00:21:03,559 a minute ago. They're all always seems to be this institutional resistance to using 267 00:21:03,559 --> 00:21:07,960 outside labs. The FBI always wants to use the Quantico lab, and the 268 00:21:07,079 --> 00:21:12,559 Virginia State Police always wants to use the Virginia State Lab, even at times 269 00:21:12,599 --> 00:21:18,799 when the science is more advanced at private labs. So I have asked the 270 00:21:18,839 --> 00:21:26,119 FBI repeatedly to consult with Austraia, one of the top hair labs in the 271 00:21:26,160 --> 00:21:30,440 country and one of the top DNA labs in California, and I just keep 272 00:21:30,839 --> 00:21:37,160 encountering resistance to this, even though Austraia is very interested in testing the hair 273 00:21:37,200 --> 00:21:41,720 in Cathy's hand and any other evidence in the Colonial Parkway murders. And I've 274 00:21:41,759 --> 00:21:47,000 spoken to the principal, Ed Green and the number two person there, Kelly 275 00:21:47,039 --> 00:21:51,960 Harkins Kincaid, both of whom are amazing scientists. They are fully committed to 276 00:21:52,079 --> 00:21:55,880 helping the FBI in any way they can, and that hair testing, and 277 00:21:55,920 --> 00:21:59,359 we just can't seem to get the FBI off the dime. And it's so 278 00:21:59,440 --> 00:22:03,000 frustrating because if the families controlled the evidence, we would have sent this out 279 00:22:03,039 --> 00:22:07,319 to the private labs. We would have found ways to raise the funds cover 280 00:22:07,400 --> 00:22:11,160 the costs, and this work would have been done years ago. And yet 281 00:22:11,279 --> 00:22:15,640 because we don't control the evidence, and the FBI in the Virginia State Police 282 00:22:15,640 --> 00:22:21,920 control the evidence, we can't seem to get them to move in the direction 283 00:22:22,039 --> 00:22:27,440 of using these private labs. I definitely wish that there was a statute of 284 00:22:27,519 --> 00:22:33,160 limitations on you have had this case long enough. Now it's time to turn 285 00:22:33,200 --> 00:22:36,440 it over to someone else. I know that will never happen, but I 286 00:22:36,519 --> 00:22:40,359 really wish that there was a time limit upon which you can have a case 287 00:22:40,440 --> 00:22:44,839 in your possession and work on it until it's time for someone else to take 288 00:22:44,880 --> 00:22:48,039 over, give it some fresh eyes, give it new time, attention, 289 00:22:48,079 --> 00:22:52,160 and resources, and just take another crack at it. That rams up against 290 00:22:52,160 --> 00:23:00,000 the whole institutional image. I'm sure that for several institutions that would probably feel 291 00:23:00,279 --> 00:23:04,079 very embarrassing to turn over old cold cases. But honestly, if the best 292 00:23:04,160 --> 00:23:10,079 interest of everyone is justice, if that's what we are all ostensibly aiming for 293 00:23:10,160 --> 00:23:12,400 at the end of the day, then at some point or another, someone 294 00:23:12,640 --> 00:23:17,279 is going to have to put the egos in check and say, in the 295 00:23:17,359 --> 00:23:21,119 interest of justice, in the interest of what is right, we do need 296 00:23:21,160 --> 00:23:23,160 to turn this over. We need to see if somebody else can make it 297 00:23:23,200 --> 00:23:27,359 happen. And again, that will never be something that the FBI or any 298 00:23:27,400 --> 00:23:32,599 other policing agency is interested in, but gosh, I wish there was such 299 00:23:32,599 --> 00:23:34,720 a thing. It goes back to that whole concept of accountability that I was 300 00:23:36,079 --> 00:23:40,440 ranting about last episode. I just wish that at some point or another, 301 00:23:40,720 --> 00:23:42,839 some of these law enforcement agencies would look and go, you know what, 302 00:23:44,079 --> 00:23:45,359 this is more than we can handle. Somebody else take it from here. 303 00:23:47,319 --> 00:23:51,279 You're listening to Mind over Murder. We'll be right back after this word from 304 00:23:51,279 --> 00:24:02,480 our sponsors. We're back here at my over Murder. Well, you know 305 00:24:02,720 --> 00:24:08,160 what's going on? Is this institutional interests supersede investigative interests. I believe in 306 00:24:08,200 --> 00:24:14,759 my heart of hearts. Yes, let's talk about the Gilgo four, Long 307 00:24:14,799 --> 00:24:22,359 Island serial killer case and the recent developments therein a corrupt, an incompetent law 308 00:24:22,440 --> 00:24:29,000 enforcement agency. And I'm not implying anything about the FBI or the Virginia State 309 00:24:29,000 --> 00:24:34,400 Police when I say this had blocked the support of the FBI and other agencies 310 00:24:34,440 --> 00:24:38,400 who wanted to assist in the investigation into what was then called the Long Island 311 00:24:38,400 --> 00:24:42,240 serial Killer and has now been kind of broken into the gil Go Beach and 312 00:24:42,359 --> 00:24:49,240 Long Island serial killer cases. As I mentioned in our recent podcast episode with 313 00:24:49,400 --> 00:24:55,720 Robert Kolker discussing this book, Lost Girls, it couldn't be lost on anyone 314 00:24:56,279 --> 00:25:03,200 that when a new group of investigators came into play, a new police chief, 315 00:25:03,680 --> 00:25:07,039 a new district attorney, a new task force, and this is key 316 00:25:07,119 --> 00:25:15,279 involving County, New York State Police, FBI and other agencies all working together 317 00:25:15,400 --> 00:25:21,519 which should have happened years before in the case, they started a new task 318 00:25:21,640 --> 00:25:29,640 force in early twenty twenty two. Six weeks after the task force was established, 319 00:25:29,839 --> 00:25:33,839 a New York State trooper, one of the people on the team found 320 00:25:33,000 --> 00:25:38,480 a tip regarding a large, what they described as an ogre like man, 321 00:25:40,039 --> 00:25:48,359 very tall, kind of oddly shaped guy driving a very distinctive Chevrolet Avalanche truck 322 00:25:48,680 --> 00:25:55,599 as being the last person seen with lisc Victim Amber Costello the night she disappeared. 323 00:25:56,559 --> 00:26:00,960 Six weeks after that task force came together, this New York State trooper, 324 00:26:00,279 --> 00:26:06,160 one of the task force team members, discovered that tip had been sitting 325 00:26:06,200 --> 00:26:11,240 in the files for it, maybe as long as twelve years. In going 326 00:26:11,400 --> 00:26:18,200 back over the evidence, this trooper found that put it forward to the team. 327 00:26:18,240 --> 00:26:22,039 They started looking at it and everything came together, as Robert Coulker was 328 00:26:22,039 --> 00:26:26,960 telling us, very very quickly. They then put the man under surveillance and 329 00:26:27,359 --> 00:26:32,400 that we're talking about rex human at this point, and he checked so many 330 00:26:32,480 --> 00:26:37,920 boxes. He lived in Massapequa Park, which is the place that they felt 331 00:26:37,000 --> 00:26:42,880 that the killer most likely lived. He worked in Midtown Manhattan, right near 332 00:26:42,960 --> 00:26:49,680 where the cell phones had pinged when the killer was calling the sister of one 333 00:26:49,680 --> 00:26:56,240 of the victims. So many things made sense. He'd drove a Chevrolet Avalanche. 334 00:26:56,559 --> 00:27:03,640 He was six four and kind of big overlike guy. He checked so 335 00:27:03,720 --> 00:27:08,599 many boxes, and so they put this man under surveillance and they quickly realized, 336 00:27:10,039 --> 00:27:15,279 here's our guy. Now. That tip was in the files for all 337 00:27:15,319 --> 00:27:18,559 of those years, but it took fresh eyes and fresh enthusiasm and a new 338 00:27:18,599 --> 00:27:23,559 team of people to put it all together. Good work, lots of good 339 00:27:23,559 --> 00:27:27,920 work had gone into that case, and they'd probably come close, but not 340 00:27:29,119 --> 00:27:33,680 quite close enough. And this is the kind of thing that was obviously tremendously 341 00:27:33,839 --> 00:27:41,359 embarrassing to James Burke and the highly corrupt and incompetent leadership of that previous investigative 342 00:27:41,400 --> 00:27:45,359 team. I mean, Burke actually ended up in jail, as did the 343 00:27:45,839 --> 00:27:52,920 district Attorney Thomas Spotta, well deserved, I might add. Yeah, this 344 00:27:52,039 --> 00:27:57,200 idea of avoiding institutional embarrassment, I think is one of the areas where we 345 00:27:57,240 --> 00:28:02,440 get tripped up kristin what you were saying a moment ago, after X number 346 00:28:02,440 --> 00:28:07,559 of years, agencies should be compelled to allow other people, whether it's the 347 00:28:07,640 --> 00:28:11,920 families, other investigative agencies, what have you to look into evidence and to 348 00:28:12,200 --> 00:28:18,319 review evidence. I think you're really going to have to push hard to overcome 349 00:28:18,359 --> 00:28:23,519 the institutional resistance, because can you imagine how embarrassing it would be if it 350 00:28:23,559 --> 00:28:29,880 was a situation like this Gilgal Beach case where Rex human is arrested they had 351 00:28:29,920 --> 00:28:34,680 this evidence ten twelve years ago. How embarrassing would it be for the FBI 352 00:28:34,720 --> 00:28:38,160 and the Virginia State Police if someone else took a look at this evidence and 353 00:28:38,279 --> 00:28:42,519 said, we ran this test and we've identified the person we believe maybe your 354 00:28:42,599 --> 00:28:51,960 suspect, after yeah, thirty seven years of failing to do so. I'm 355 00:28:51,960 --> 00:28:56,680 not saying it's an acceptable excuse, but I believe it is playing into the 356 00:28:56,839 --> 00:29:02,400 kind of institutional resistance we're seeing in the colonial murders right now. It makes 357 00:29:02,400 --> 00:29:07,880 sense, it really does. We've got a couple of other questions here, 358 00:29:07,039 --> 00:29:11,279 not related to DNA or FGG, but just some random things that were thrown 359 00:29:11,319 --> 00:29:15,720 out here by some listeners and said, I think to wrap up here, 360 00:29:15,880 --> 00:29:18,200 we're just going to take as many of these as we can. So one 361 00:29:18,240 --> 00:29:23,559 of our longtime listeners, Leova, asked the excellent question, if there is 362 00:29:23,720 --> 00:29:30,799 one thing you would change about law enforcement in the US. What would it 363 00:29:30,839 --> 00:29:37,440 be? I know I saw the question. I was like, oh my 364 00:29:37,599 --> 00:29:41,559 god, where do I start? Yeah? How much time do wee? 365 00:29:41,079 --> 00:29:47,079 Okay, but it says one thing. So you've already heard me go on 366 00:29:47,119 --> 00:29:52,640 a tangent about about accountability and making sure that there is more oversight. I 367 00:29:52,680 --> 00:30:00,880 want more oversight into cold cases in particular, and I want the I'm given 368 00:30:00,119 --> 00:30:04,720 proper attention and time and resources, and I want there to be a body, 369 00:30:04,880 --> 00:30:08,559 an overall body. I don't know what that would look like that can 370 00:30:08,799 --> 00:30:12,880 say things like, Okay, it's been twenty years on this case. Time's 371 00:30:12,960 --> 00:30:17,519 up. Move it to someone else. So if there's one thing that I 372 00:30:17,559 --> 00:30:22,680 would change about lawn first someone in the US, it is a greater sense 373 00:30:22,720 --> 00:30:27,400 of accountability with a larger Not that we need more government in this example, 374 00:30:27,440 --> 00:30:30,960 but we do need a governing body of some variety. All right, Bill, 375 00:30:32,000 --> 00:30:36,680 how about you? Okay, I'm gonna try to articulate an idea I've 376 00:30:36,680 --> 00:30:41,319 had for a while that I think could be helpful and I think might help 377 00:30:41,359 --> 00:30:47,200 address Legoba's questionable. We could change about law enforcement. This will take me 378 00:30:47,240 --> 00:30:51,319 a second to explain. Oh, I know what this is. I know 379 00:30:51,359 --> 00:30:53,680 what it is go ahead. It's something you and I have talked about before. 380 00:30:53,799 --> 00:30:56,279 I come from a military family. I come from a Navy family, 381 00:30:56,319 --> 00:31:02,000 as many listeners know. I think that as a country, we're spending too 382 00:31:02,079 --> 00:31:08,000 much money on our defense department. I think we should be putting more resources 383 00:31:08,079 --> 00:31:12,640 into law enforcement. And here's my idea from my point of view, I 384 00:31:12,640 --> 00:31:17,400 think the fact that there are two hundred and fifty thousand cold case homicides here 385 00:31:17,440 --> 00:31:21,000 in the United States and growing. I've heard a new number that may be 386 00:31:22,440 --> 00:31:26,359 to sixty and I've even heard a number as highest two hundred and eighty thousand. 387 00:31:26,920 --> 00:31:30,400 Let's go with two fifty just to be fair or use around numbers. 388 00:31:30,519 --> 00:31:34,559 Two hundred and fifty thousand cold case homicides I think should be a national scandal. 389 00:31:36,359 --> 00:31:40,599 Let's tie in those two comments I just made together. What if we 390 00:31:40,599 --> 00:31:45,000 were to take one hundred thousand of our best and brightest from America's military, 391 00:31:45,480 --> 00:31:51,920 many of whom might transition into law enforcement when they finished up their military careers 392 00:31:52,279 --> 00:31:56,039 as it is, what if we took one hundred thousand of our best and 393 00:31:56,079 --> 00:32:00,799 brightest from America's military and transferred them into positions around the country, they would 394 00:32:00,839 --> 00:32:07,559 apply, be like applying for a job to take full time paid positions based 395 00:32:07,599 --> 00:32:14,839 on need with law enforcement, and the goal would be to reduce America's two 396 00:32:14,880 --> 00:32:19,480 hundred and fifty thousand cold case homicides by fifty percent in ten years. This 397 00:32:19,519 --> 00:32:23,119 is a little bit like when I was a kid, President Kennedy proposed that 398 00:32:23,160 --> 00:32:27,480 we go to the Moon in ten years. I'm doing this for memory, 399 00:32:27,480 --> 00:32:30,160 but you know something similar, like a ten year period. Do you set 400 00:32:30,160 --> 00:32:32,640 yourself a goal and it's a high bar, but you're trying to get there. 401 00:32:34,319 --> 00:32:37,440 I think we need to put one hundred thousand of our best and brightest 402 00:32:37,839 --> 00:32:43,319 distributed around the country based on need, and their focus would be on cold 403 00:32:43,400 --> 00:32:51,039 cases. So we'd have new investigators, forensics experts, additional scientists. There's 404 00:32:51,079 --> 00:32:55,440 a lot of amazing, incredibly dedicated people in America's military. They would make 405 00:32:55,559 --> 00:33:01,200 a fantastic addition to our law enforcement team. And if we were to permanently 406 00:33:01,240 --> 00:33:06,920 fund these positions. So these are good jobs with good wages and benefits, 407 00:33:07,000 --> 00:33:09,720 and people would live in the cities and towns they want to live in. 408 00:33:10,799 --> 00:33:15,799 Some people would be returning back to places that they grew up in or know 409 00:33:15,960 --> 00:33:20,960 and love from their service, and we thank them for that service, and 410 00:33:21,000 --> 00:33:24,720 now we're going to put them into a new role. We could do amazing 411 00:33:24,839 --> 00:33:30,880 things if we took some of our military resources and put them into this idea 412 00:33:30,960 --> 00:33:37,400 of like a forensic moonshot or cold case moonshot, but the idea that can 413 00:33:37,519 --> 00:33:43,920 we solve hundreds of thousands of these cases. Experts tell me it could be 414 00:33:43,960 --> 00:33:49,440 done, but as usual time, attention and resources. Yes, that's my 415 00:33:49,519 --> 00:33:52,039 idea. I'll climb off the soapbox now. Now I've liked it every time 416 00:33:52,039 --> 00:33:57,920 you've mentioned that. I think it's a good idea. Nancy G presents a 417 00:33:58,039 --> 00:34:00,279 question that I don't know that I have the brain to deal with right now. 418 00:34:00,400 --> 00:34:04,480 I'm going to give it my best shot anyway, okay, because it's 419 00:34:04,480 --> 00:34:07,119 a great question, but it's also the end of my work day and I'm 420 00:34:07,160 --> 00:34:13,480 tired. Nancy G asks what is the biggest shift in the criminal justice field, 421 00:34:14,039 --> 00:34:22,360 including forensics outside of DNA? Right, and she also continues, how 422 00:34:22,360 --> 00:34:28,920 do you feel DNA and FGG his influenced law enforcement and the District Attorney's office. 423 00:34:30,920 --> 00:34:32,559 I don't know if I got it in me, man, but I 424 00:34:32,559 --> 00:34:37,920 will try. Well, Nancy, I'm not an expert. It's a great 425 00:34:38,079 --> 00:34:43,320 question. I guess i'd push back lightly. I think the biggest shift in 426 00:34:43,360 --> 00:34:45,320 the criminal justice field from my point of view, and again, we're just 427 00:34:45,440 --> 00:34:50,880 following along, we're not criminal justice experts. One of the things I think 428 00:34:50,960 --> 00:34:53,800 is really cool about hosting Mind over Murder, and you know we're trying to 429 00:34:53,840 --> 00:35:00,119 do something worthwhile with our life experiences and losing loved ones, is the opportunity 430 00:35:00,199 --> 00:35:05,679 to talk to these amazing people and learn from them. We had Joe jack 431 00:35:05,719 --> 00:35:09,599 alone on a couple of weeks ago talking about his work as a cold case 432 00:35:09,639 --> 00:35:14,559 detective, and he was talking about the Long Island serial killer case, which 433 00:35:14,599 --> 00:35:17,000 is a case that he has followed very closely. Even though he was an 434 00:35:17,079 --> 00:35:22,679 NYPD homicide detective and cold case specialist, he lived in Long Island, so 435 00:35:22,719 --> 00:35:27,639 he's followed that case for years. To talk with people like that, I 436 00:35:27,679 --> 00:35:31,320 think we can listen and learn. I think the biggest shift from my point 437 00:35:31,320 --> 00:35:38,639 of view is definitely in the forensics area, and DNA has just grown so 438 00:35:38,840 --> 00:35:45,800 tremendously. I think the biggest thing is actually the smallest, which is how 439 00:35:45,000 --> 00:35:53,239 little DNA is required. Yeah, to create a working searchable DNA profile, 440 00:35:53,920 --> 00:36:00,239 even in the last five years, it's grown tremendously because it's actually got so 441 00:36:00,320 --> 00:36:04,480 much more refined in Actually I'm holding my fingers together to make them very small. 442 00:36:05,400 --> 00:36:09,039 And then of course the for geneticalealogy and many of our friends are working 443 00:36:09,039 --> 00:36:15,880 in this field now. It's so exciting to see that highlights the ability that 444 00:36:15,960 --> 00:36:21,280 law enforcement have now to solve not just cold cases, but terrible cases that 445 00:36:21,360 --> 00:36:25,960 happened last week, where there's evidence left behind and you can grab that evidence, 446 00:36:27,320 --> 00:36:31,679 get it profiled, and start searching for who the identity is of that 447 00:36:31,840 --> 00:36:37,719 individual. So this can solve a murder or a rape that happened last week 448 00:36:37,239 --> 00:36:40,960 just as well as it could solve something that happened, say, thirty seven 449 00:36:42,079 --> 00:36:47,159 years ago and the Colonial Parkway murders. I hope my excitement and enthusiasm is 450 00:36:47,320 --> 00:36:52,960 coming across because I think that's the single biggest change that I've seen as someone 451 00:36:53,000 --> 00:36:59,239 who is a fan of and is someone who is pulling for everyone's success. 452 00:37:00,079 --> 00:37:06,039 Private labs, public labs, local state, county, and federal investigators. 453 00:37:06,039 --> 00:37:09,079 There's so much opportunity here. We just have to work together to figure out 454 00:37:09,559 --> 00:37:14,159 how can we fund this, how can we make this work. How can 455 00:37:14,199 --> 00:37:19,000 we cut in half our backlog of two hundred and fifty thousand cold case homicides. 456 00:37:19,719 --> 00:37:22,639 I agree. I have to say for my own part, first as 457 00:37:22,679 --> 00:37:27,480 a spectator in the criminal justice field, and now doing what we do with 458 00:37:27,519 --> 00:37:32,679 the podcast and being around all of these very smart, very accomplished people FGG 459 00:37:34,159 --> 00:37:38,480 forensic genetic genealogy has definitely felt like the biggest shift for me. And I 460 00:37:38,559 --> 00:37:45,519 remember it actually is longer ago now than I would care to admit. After 461 00:37:45,559 --> 00:37:49,599 the Golden State killer arrest and it was revealed how that happened, you could 462 00:37:49,760 --> 00:37:52,960 feel just a seismic shift. I mean I remember thinking, my god, 463 00:37:53,000 --> 00:38:00,239 this is going to change everything. And then it was Awthum and Parabond just 464 00:38:00,239 --> 00:38:04,679 breaking one cold case after another after another after another after another. It was 465 00:38:04,719 --> 00:38:08,239 like, wow, here we are look at these old cases, and I 466 00:38:08,280 --> 00:38:14,239 mean it felt like multi decade cases were just falling one after the other. 467 00:38:15,039 --> 00:38:17,639 And of course we were both sitting here going all right, this is great, 468 00:38:17,679 --> 00:38:21,960 Like when are we going to use it for our case? That's still 469 00:38:22,679 --> 00:38:28,199 it's still a question I have still waiting, still waiting, But I mean 470 00:38:28,320 --> 00:38:31,440 it was it was insane, just the number of every day or two. 471 00:38:32,199 --> 00:38:37,119 And because I'm on Autham's Facebook page and Instagram and everything else, we see 472 00:38:37,159 --> 00:38:40,599 it every single time David or Kristen Middleman is like, hey, we got 473 00:38:40,639 --> 00:38:44,360 a case announcement coming up. It's like, oh my god, dude, 474 00:38:44,400 --> 00:38:49,360 five six a week. This is nuts. They're really just they're setting them 475 00:38:49,440 --> 00:38:55,440 up and knocking them down. I haven't been as excited about anything forensic related 476 00:38:55,880 --> 00:39:01,079 as I have been with FGG. Getting into talk to Colleen Fitzpatrick and Barbara 477 00:39:01,159 --> 00:39:07,599 rave Thunner about their work, that's really just encouraged me in that enthusiasm even 478 00:39:07,639 --> 00:39:13,760 more. They're doing phenomenal work. Well said. Let's see question from Julie 479 00:39:13,840 --> 00:39:17,440 C. This is interesting as a team that seems to work well. I 480 00:39:17,480 --> 00:39:23,960 think emphasis on the seams there is oh your cynic You come on as a 481 00:39:24,000 --> 00:39:29,880 team that seems to work well. What do you consider each other's strong suits 482 00:39:29,880 --> 00:39:31,559 and what do you separately bring to the table. Do you want to go 483 00:39:31,639 --> 00:39:37,880 first or second? I'll go first. I will say that I think that 484 00:39:37,960 --> 00:39:44,400 the greatest thing that Bill brings to the table is definitely his wizard like ability 485 00:39:44,480 --> 00:39:52,239 to instantly connect with anyone and be the extrovert and the person who like, 486 00:39:52,719 --> 00:39:55,280 I've never met a person that Bill can instantly connect with him talk to. 487 00:39:55,440 --> 00:40:00,320 It's it's crazy, like I don't have that ability in any way, shape 488 00:40:00,360 --> 00:40:05,599 or form, because I'm too introverted for that. So Bill is definitely the 489 00:40:05,639 --> 00:40:08,760 guru when it comes to let me connect with you, let me feel, 490 00:40:09,360 --> 00:40:15,400 let me find a connection between between us, and it's amazing. I absolutely 491 00:40:15,440 --> 00:40:20,280 love just kind of like watching Bill worker room is hysterical because he's going to 492 00:40:20,400 --> 00:40:22,719 leave any room that he walks into with like twenty five new friends, a 493 00:40:22,719 --> 00:40:28,239 bunch of business card and contact info for everybody. And I'm lucky that he's 494 00:40:28,280 --> 00:40:32,159 willing to be the extrovert because sometimes I'm too exhausted to do it. So 495 00:40:32,719 --> 00:40:37,639 I network very differently than Bill does. I love the fact that I've got 496 00:40:37,880 --> 00:40:44,119 one half of my podcasting team is team extrovert when I have to be team 497 00:40:44,119 --> 00:40:46,639 introvert. So I really appreciate that, and I love the fact that I 498 00:40:46,679 --> 00:40:52,320 get to work with somebody who is so warm and approachable. Well thank you, 499 00:40:52,840 --> 00:40:54,800 Okay, Well, Julie, he's having to sake about it, folks. 500 00:40:54,800 --> 00:40:59,159 Oh no, Julie, I think it's a fantastic question. I can't 501 00:40:59,199 --> 00:41:04,639 say enough one ful things about Kristen. Kristen is brilliant. She's an incredible 502 00:41:04,920 --> 00:41:09,840 writer. She's very, very funny, She's got a great spirit. She 503 00:41:10,559 --> 00:41:15,719 makes me laugh at times when it things can get stressful, and you know, 504 00:41:15,400 --> 00:41:22,760 we're dealing with situations that are sometimes a real struggle. She's an incredible 505 00:41:22,880 --> 00:41:27,920 partner. It's funny. I have to make a differentiation when I talk about 506 00:41:28,079 --> 00:41:36,199 Kristen because I always say podcast partner because we both have life partners. You 507 00:41:36,199 --> 00:41:39,320 know, I always want to call Pamela my girlfriend, and she hates that 508 00:41:39,400 --> 00:41:44,400 expression. So I'm trying to be a good partner, and so I use 509 00:41:44,440 --> 00:41:49,880 the word partner, but I'll say partner or life partner. But Kristen is 510 00:41:49,920 --> 00:41:57,320 an incredible podcast partner, business partner. We work together very effectively. I 511 00:41:57,400 --> 00:42:02,119 was telling someone today that even though Kristen and I come at this work from 512 00:42:02,159 --> 00:42:07,400 completely different places, we actually very rarely disagree. I think it's healthy that 513 00:42:07,400 --> 00:42:14,559 that option exists. And I'm dealing with someone who is passionate and smart and 514 00:42:15,039 --> 00:42:21,159 nuanced, and so I'm not always anticipating that Kristen's going to see things necessarily 515 00:42:21,199 --> 00:42:25,760 the way I do. But her response to something is going to be so 516 00:42:25,920 --> 00:42:32,800 well thought out and methodical and careful, and then delivered with like this quiet 517 00:42:32,920 --> 00:42:37,960 wit that I can't help but laugh. But she really affects my thinking because 518 00:42:38,000 --> 00:42:43,000 she's coming at this and I'll think, wow, what did I think? 519 00:42:45,440 --> 00:42:49,800 But she did, and that's the important thing. So I can't say enough 520 00:42:50,400 --> 00:42:53,559 wonderful things about Kristen and what a pleasure it is to work with her. 521 00:42:53,599 --> 00:42:59,639 Every single day. I look forward to our conversations and I am inspired by 522 00:42:59,639 --> 00:43:02,800 them. Maybe, oh thank you, See you said it a whole lot 523 00:43:02,840 --> 00:43:06,360 better than I did. I'm the one who's supposed to have the words, 524 00:43:06,760 --> 00:43:10,280 Oh no, you did great. As you know, Julie also asked too, 525 00:43:10,320 --> 00:43:15,079 She said, what do you separately bring to the table, And as 526 00:43:15,119 --> 00:43:17,079 you just pointed it out a couple of minutes ago, like we do come 527 00:43:17,079 --> 00:43:22,800 at this from very different places. Yes, we both lost loved ones too 528 00:43:22,920 --> 00:43:29,000 violent crime, but mine is it is a step back. I have never 529 00:43:29,079 --> 00:43:34,440 experienced the kind of immediate violence that you have with Cathy's loss, but I 530 00:43:34,480 --> 00:43:37,880 am able to come at it also as someone who is a fan. It 531 00:43:37,880 --> 00:43:40,280 sounds awful to say a fan of crime. I guess what I should say 532 00:43:40,320 --> 00:43:45,800 is a fan of like crime shows, am am. I misrepresenting you if 533 00:43:45,800 --> 00:43:50,320 I say that you weren't really a fan of those things before we started working 534 00:43:50,320 --> 00:43:52,559 together. I'm not saying you are now either, but you weren't, like, 535 00:43:52,719 --> 00:43:57,679 you know, there for every CSI episode, right, No, No, 536 00:43:57,760 --> 00:44:00,199 not at all. I would say it's something like Zodiac would come along 537 00:44:00,280 --> 00:44:06,920 every once in a while, the David Fincher film and others that really grabbed 538 00:44:06,960 --> 00:44:10,880 me. But no, I wouldn't say I was a big true crime fan. 539 00:44:13,320 --> 00:44:16,920 I came into it with this idea like I came into the Colonial Parkway 540 00:44:17,000 --> 00:44:24,519 Murders having seen and read about the fictional version through Patricia Cornwell long before I 541 00:44:24,559 --> 00:44:29,159 was really aware of in any major way that I had done a ton of 542 00:44:29,199 --> 00:44:32,320 investigation into, so I would see separately, I really came into it as 543 00:44:32,360 --> 00:44:37,079 being like someone who I like CSI like Criminal minds, all of that. 544 00:44:37,079 --> 00:44:42,239 That is something that I have brought into this relationship. And now I've really 545 00:44:42,239 --> 00:44:47,400 had to temper how I feel about these shows and how much I consume because 546 00:44:47,440 --> 00:44:51,400 it is it is a lot, and it's dark, and what we do, 547 00:44:51,800 --> 00:44:53,039 while we do seem to have fun with it on the podcast, and 548 00:44:53,079 --> 00:44:58,400 we do this is a very dark space to get into. Thank you all 549 00:44:58,480 --> 00:45:01,239 so much for your wonderful question, and we do encourage you to just continue 550 00:45:01,280 --> 00:45:06,599 sending them and we will get to them as we get them. That's gonna 551 00:45:06,599 --> 00:45:09,559 do it for this episode. Thank you so much for listening. We'll see 552 00:45:09,559 --> 00:45:24,360 you next time. Mind Over Murder is a production of Absolute Zero and Another 553 00:45:24,440 --> 00:45:30,199 Dog Productions. Our executive producers are Bill Thomas and Kristin Dilley. Our logo 554 00:45:30,360 --> 00:45:36,599 art is by Pamela Arnois. Our theme music is by Kevin McLeod. Mind 555 00:45:36,639 --> 00:45:40,880 Over Murder is distributed in partnership with Coral Space Media. You can follow us 556 00:45:40,920 --> 00:45:45,960 on Facebook, Twitter, or Instagram. You can also follow our page on 557 00:45:45,000 --> 00:45:51,000 the Colonial Parkway Murders on Facebook and finally, you can follow Bill Thomas on 558 00:45:51,039 --> 00:46:08,199 Twitter at Bill Thomas five six. Thank you for listening to mind Over Murder. Old