1 00:00:01,120 --> 00:00:07,280 You're listening to the Mind over Murder podcast. My name is Bill Thomas. 2 00:00:07,799 --> 00:00:12,080 I'm a writer, consulting, producer, and now podcaster. I am now 3 00:00:12,119 --> 00:00:16,039 trying to use my experience as the brother of a murder victim to help other 4 00:00:16,120 --> 00:00:20,280 victims of violent crime. I'm working on a book on the unsolved Colonial Parkway 5 00:00:20,359 --> 00:00:24,760 murders and I'm the co administrator of the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook group together with 6 00:00:24,839 --> 00:00:29,120 Kristin Dilly. My name is Kristin Dilly. I'm a writer, a researcher, 7 00:00:29,320 --> 00:00:32,840 a teacher, and a victim's advocate, as well as the social media 8 00:00:32,880 --> 00:00:37,880 manager and co administrator for the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook page with my partner in 9 00:00:37,920 --> 00:00:45,439 crime, Bill Thomas. Welcome to Mind of a Murderer. I'm Kristin Dilly 10 00:00:45,479 --> 00:00:49,719 and I'm Bill Thomas, and we're joined today by Lindsay Wade, author of 11 00:00:49,880 --> 00:00:54,439 In My DNA, My Career Investigating Your Worst Nightmares. Lindsay, thank you 12 00:00:54,479 --> 00:00:59,079 for being here today. Thank you so much for having me back. Before 13 00:00:59,079 --> 00:01:03,359 we get into our discussion on the reason we wanted you to speak with us 14 00:01:03,399 --> 00:01:06,239 today, which is the Codis Gap, we wanted to go ahead and extend 15 00:01:06,280 --> 00:01:10,760 our congratulations on the fact that your book has been nominated as one of the 16 00:01:10,799 --> 00:01:15,239 best true crime books of the Year at the Crime con Clue Awards. Thank 17 00:01:15,280 --> 00:01:22,120 you so much. I'm very excited about that. I was very surprised to 18 00:01:22,239 --> 00:01:25,920 receive that nomination. Yes, I'm just happy to be in good company. 19 00:01:26,439 --> 00:01:30,640 So how did you find out that in My Dna was named one of the 20 00:01:30,680 --> 00:01:34,840 top true crime books of the year. Now by the time we air this 21 00:01:34,000 --> 00:01:40,120 episode, they will have announced who won the grand prize. It is truly 22 00:01:40,159 --> 00:01:42,719 an honor to be nominated. So how did you find out about it? 23 00:01:42,599 --> 00:01:47,959 I got an email, and yes, got an email from Crime con or 24 00:01:48,040 --> 00:01:52,120 I guess actually from the Clue Awards technically letting me know that my book was 25 00:01:52,159 --> 00:01:57,120 one of five finalists for the category Book of the Year. Yeah. I 26 00:01:57,200 --> 00:02:01,599 was pretty blown away. And they want to be like frantically reading all the 27 00:02:01,640 --> 00:02:05,719 other books in the group, because I want to read everybody's book before I 28 00:02:05,760 --> 00:02:08,159 get there. Sorry, no, I'm dealing with it. We're very excited. 29 00:02:08,520 --> 00:02:13,479 You know that you're in that amazing group of people because it is a 30 00:02:13,560 --> 00:02:19,319 pretty heady category and lots of really wonderfully accomplished people and of course my most 31 00:02:19,319 --> 00:02:22,080 important question at the moment is what are you planning to wear to the Clue 32 00:02:22,120 --> 00:02:25,479 Awards? Because we've all been invited, So what are you planning to wear? 33 00:02:25,879 --> 00:02:30,759 Funny you should ask, because I have no idea. I probably have 34 00:02:30,800 --> 00:02:32,520 a couple of different things that I'm going to bring, But I guess I'll 35 00:02:32,520 --> 00:02:38,960 just depend on how bloated I am or whatever that day as to what This 36 00:02:39,039 --> 00:02:46,080 is such a women's discussion. Like Kristin asked me earlier today what I was 37 00:02:46,120 --> 00:02:49,599 wearing to the Clue Awards, and I did ask you, Yes, I 38 00:02:49,680 --> 00:02:53,439 did. Quite frankly, being a guy, I hadn't thought about it in 39 00:02:53,520 --> 00:02:59,240 the least. Yes, women have to do. There's a lot more of 40 00:02:59,280 --> 00:03:02,800 a process into it for the ladies. Yeah, but I'm also I probably 41 00:03:02,800 --> 00:03:07,639 will wear a dress of some kind nice. Yeah, bring a couple. 42 00:03:07,680 --> 00:03:10,680 I had a couple with me last year and I finally decided on my favorite. 43 00:03:10,840 --> 00:03:14,520 But Bill, I gotta tell you, you know that Paul Holes and 44 00:03:14,560 --> 00:03:17,080 Matt Murphy have put a lot of thought into what there were into the Clue 45 00:03:17,080 --> 00:03:20,479 Awards, So you're gonna have to step up your game a little bit. 46 00:03:20,719 --> 00:03:24,120 I'm not even attempting to compete at the level of Paul Holes or Matt Murphy, 47 00:03:24,159 --> 00:03:29,439 who are both of whom are big time true crime sex symbols. If 48 00:03:29,520 --> 00:03:32,919 we're still allowed to use that expression, lindsay, before we get started talking 49 00:03:32,960 --> 00:03:38,360 about the Codis gap, very quickly, remind our listeners a little bit about 50 00:03:38,360 --> 00:03:44,800 your background as an investigator. Sure, so, my background is law enforcements. 51 00:03:44,919 --> 00:03:49,159 I'm a retired detective out of Washington State. Spent twenty one years with 52 00:03:49,199 --> 00:03:53,000 the Tacoma Police Department. Fourteen of those years I spent as a detective, 53 00:03:53,280 --> 00:03:59,360 primarily worked sexual assault pieces, missing persons, homicide cases, child and bease 54 00:03:59,439 --> 00:04:03,319 cases, and then when I retired, I was the cold case detective when 55 00:04:03,319 --> 00:04:06,960 I retired from my agency, and then I went to work for the Attorney 56 00:04:08,039 --> 00:04:13,680 General of our state for just under five years, just under five years as 57 00:04:13,719 --> 00:04:17,639 an investigator, working on a sexual assault kit initiative and then worked on some 58 00:04:17,680 --> 00:04:23,600 other We have a unit within the Attorney General's office which is called HITS, 59 00:04:23,680 --> 00:04:28,360 which is the Homicide Investigation and Tracking System Unit, and that was actually started 60 00:04:28,360 --> 00:04:31,519 by Bob Keppel. For any true crime fans that name, so Bob started 61 00:04:31,519 --> 00:04:36,959 that unit. Now I'm just in the private sector, still keeping my finger 62 00:04:38,000 --> 00:04:41,800 on the pulse of what's going on in the world of crime. So how 63 00:04:41,839 --> 00:04:46,360 did you get your start with the Tacoma Police Department. Is this something when 64 00:04:46,360 --> 00:04:48,800 you were a kid you thought, I want to be an investigator, I 65 00:04:48,800 --> 00:04:54,560 want to be a detective. I actually knew when I was in high school 66 00:04:54,560 --> 00:04:59,480 that I wanted to be a detective. And I actually was inspired by reading 67 00:04:59,560 --> 00:05:03,399 and We're book The Stranger Beside Me as I think I was a sophomore in 68 00:05:03,480 --> 00:05:09,920 high school and I was hooked at that point, and I guess I was 69 00:05:09,959 --> 00:05:14,040 a true crime nerd before that was the thing when it was still really weird 70 00:05:14,079 --> 00:05:16,160 and awkward and you didn't talk about that kind of stuff. I knew from 71 00:05:16,240 --> 00:05:20,240 that point on. And I had a friend in school her dad was a 72 00:05:20,240 --> 00:05:25,279 police officer, so I was exposed on the periphery, so to speak to 73 00:05:25,560 --> 00:05:29,519 a little bit of police work, police life. I had another friend, 74 00:05:29,560 --> 00:05:32,160 family friend who was a police officer. Then I did an internship with the 75 00:05:32,199 --> 00:05:36,639 police department when I was in college with a female sergeant. Yeah, like 76 00:05:36,680 --> 00:05:40,439 everything I did along the way, it was like it just made me more 77 00:05:40,480 --> 00:05:42,920 and more certain that this was what I wanted to do, and this was 78 00:05:42,959 --> 00:05:45,560 the job I wanted. And then when I was in college, I was 79 00:05:45,600 --> 00:05:50,680 actually in my junior year of college and I got hired by the police department. 80 00:05:50,720 --> 00:05:55,279 I had taken the written task and gone through the whole process of the 81 00:05:55,279 --> 00:05:59,040 physical and the psychological and the medical and everything you have to do, and 82 00:05:59,079 --> 00:06:01,800 they offered me a job. And so I ended up putting school to go 83 00:06:01,879 --> 00:06:06,920 work for the police department at the ripe old age of twenty one, and 84 00:06:08,000 --> 00:06:12,680 went to the police academy, And luckily, the police department actually did tuition 85 00:06:12,759 --> 00:06:15,480 reimbursement, so I was able to go back and finish my degree later on 86 00:06:15,720 --> 00:06:21,720 after I was a detective. Very cool. So you wrote a really fascinating 87 00:06:23,040 --> 00:06:29,680 article called DNA's Delayed Justice, the fight to fill the gaps in Codis, 88 00:06:29,959 --> 00:06:34,199 which really resonated with the two of us in light of our own interests both 89 00:06:34,199 --> 00:06:39,600 within the crime and justice space and of course the Colonial Parkway murders. What 90 00:06:39,959 --> 00:06:45,399 prompted you to sit down and write this particular article at this particular time. 91 00:06:46,079 --> 00:06:50,399 Wow, there was a recent cold case that was solved as a result of 92 00:06:50,800 --> 00:06:59,040 getting DNA into Codis from a long forgotten, really bad guy who was executed 93 00:06:59,319 --> 00:07:02,319 in Washington date back in nineteen ninety four. As a result of finally getting 94 00:07:02,360 --> 00:07:06,680 his DNA into COTIS, a cold case from nineteen seventy five was resolved. 95 00:07:06,959 --> 00:07:13,639 This is a topic that I've been very interested in and I would say slightly 96 00:07:13,680 --> 00:07:19,319 obsessed with since about twenty eleven when I first stumbled across this issue. Over 97 00:07:19,360 --> 00:07:26,800 the years have found example after example of really scary guys, really violent offenders, 98 00:07:26,839 --> 00:07:30,439 who for one reason or another, slipped through the cracks and were not 99 00:07:30,560 --> 00:07:34,879 ever in the DNA database for the purpose of solving cases. Most recent example 100 00:07:35,759 --> 00:07:41,120 just it's like a culination of many years of all these different cases and then 101 00:07:41,319 --> 00:07:46,399 here's this latest example, and I thought it was definitely worthy of getting the 102 00:07:46,439 --> 00:07:51,000 word out to law enforcement, specifically to hopefully make people take notice and take 103 00:07:51,000 --> 00:07:56,759 a look at what's going on in their own jurisdictions. That this particular case 104 00:07:57,040 --> 00:08:01,879 would not have been solved without changing legislation in Washington State, and so that 105 00:08:01,040 --> 00:08:05,120 was necessary to even get this person's DNA into CODIS. So that was one 106 00:08:05,120 --> 00:08:09,079 of the piece of it. There were just so many factors and so much 107 00:08:09,120 --> 00:08:13,000 work over many years to get the but I think it's just a really great 108 00:08:13,040 --> 00:08:18,720 example of what can be done and hopefully a model that other states could use 109 00:08:18,879 --> 00:08:22,519 to do the same kind of thing. Let's tell me about the case a 110 00:08:22,560 --> 00:08:26,519 little bit first, before we get to the long and very worthwhile effort that 111 00:08:26,560 --> 00:08:31,960 you and others put into actually changing the law in Washington State. So tell 112 00:08:33,039 --> 00:08:37,320 us a little bit more about the case itself and how this ended up moving 113 00:08:37,360 --> 00:08:41,039 on to your radar as an investigator. Really, I knew about the offender. 114 00:08:41,120 --> 00:08:45,080 I didn't know about the victim. So it's like a backwards way of 115 00:08:45,120 --> 00:08:48,279 working the case. That's really how it happened in this instance, because I 116 00:08:48,440 --> 00:08:54,080 became aware of the offender in this case many years ago, and he was 117 00:08:54,200 --> 00:08:56,879 like my poster child for Hey, everybody, pay attention. We need to 118 00:08:56,879 --> 00:09:01,360 make some changes in codis because this is a problem. So when I would 119 00:09:01,360 --> 00:09:05,679 go down to Olympia, our state capital, and testify in front of various 120 00:09:05,720 --> 00:09:11,879 committees about changing our DNA law, I would always use him as my primal 121 00:09:11,000 --> 00:09:16,279 example of this really heinous offender that slipped through the cracks and is currently not 122 00:09:16,720 --> 00:09:20,879 in cotis. Knowing about him, and this is what I learned about him. 123 00:09:22,039 --> 00:09:24,519 I was reviewing. Actually, I was working on a cold case, 124 00:09:24,519 --> 00:09:28,960 and I was reviewing a list of convicted offenders that were not in Cotis and 125 00:09:30,000 --> 00:09:33,399 he was one name on that list. And what really caught my attention initially 126 00:09:33,559 --> 00:09:37,519 was that when I looked in the status column, this is like an Excel 127 00:09:37,559 --> 00:09:41,279 spreadsheet that I was reviewing, and the status column that said executed, And 128 00:09:41,360 --> 00:09:43,519 so I was like, that's interesting. And I could see that he had 129 00:09:43,679 --> 00:09:48,159 three convictions for aggravated first degree murder, which is the highest level of murder 130 00:09:48,200 --> 00:09:52,360 that you could be convicted of in my state. And so I thought, 131 00:09:52,399 --> 00:09:54,360 this is interesting. I really I want to dig into this guy and find 132 00:09:54,399 --> 00:09:58,879 out what he actually did, because this is scary that he's not in co 133 00:10:00,679 --> 00:10:05,799 And so I went down the rabbit hole looking at his criminal history, googling, 134 00:10:05,039 --> 00:10:09,080 looking at basically anything I could get my hands on to try to get 135 00:10:09,120 --> 00:10:11,120 a handle on who this person was. And what I came to learn was 136 00:10:11,159 --> 00:10:16,399 that he was a career criminal. He had committed a stranger sexual assault back 137 00:10:16,399 --> 00:10:22,480 in nineteen seventy four, he had gone to prison, and even though he 138 00:10:22,559 --> 00:10:24,879 was sentenced to thirty years in prison, he was out in less than six 139 00:10:24,960 --> 00:10:30,679 years. Wow. Yeah, we both were just like horrified when we read 140 00:10:30,720 --> 00:10:35,240 that, like, how in the world does a thirty year sentence turn into 141 00:10:35,279 --> 00:10:39,440 six years and the guys out on work release. Yeah, and unfortunately that 142 00:10:39,559 --> 00:10:43,759 was not uncommon during those times. Back in the seventies and eighties, it 143 00:10:43,840 --> 00:10:48,440 was not uncommon for people to get sentenced to really long sentences and be out 144 00:10:48,600 --> 00:10:54,799 in five years or less. But that's a different matter. Nevertheless, he 145 00:10:54,000 --> 00:10:58,120 was released, the victim wasn't notified that he was released from prison, and 146 00:10:58,200 --> 00:11:03,759 he actually was being in a halfway house very close to where she lived. 147 00:11:03,799 --> 00:11:07,440 And so within less than a year of him being on work release, he 148 00:11:07,559 --> 00:11:11,879 returned to her home and murdered her, her eight year old daughter, and 149 00:11:11,919 --> 00:11:18,639 her neighbor. It was probably one of the most outrageous and shocking crimes that 150 00:11:18,720 --> 00:11:24,159 really ever occurred in Washington State. It really just horrified people. He was 151 00:11:24,240 --> 00:11:28,159 arrested very soon after. I don't think it took a rocket scientist to figure 152 00:11:28,159 --> 00:11:31,840 out who did it. He was ultimately convicted of the three murders and he 153 00:11:33,000 --> 00:11:35,279 was put to death. He was actually the last person in Washington State to 154 00:11:35,320 --> 00:11:41,799 be hanged in nineteen ninety four. So learning all of that history, I 155 00:11:41,840 --> 00:11:46,639 thought, Okay, this is a really dangerous predatory offender. He's not in 156 00:11:46,720 --> 00:11:50,480 COTIS. So I thought, Okay, I'm going to start I'm going to 157 00:11:50,480 --> 00:11:52,039 find a sample for this guy, and he needs to be in the system. 158 00:11:52,080 --> 00:11:56,919 And part of my thought process when I would look at these cases was 159 00:11:56,080 --> 00:12:01,879 maybe this will solve the cases that I'm working on. Maybe person's DNA will 160 00:12:01,919 --> 00:12:05,519 help solve these other cases. So that was always in my mind when I 161 00:12:05,559 --> 00:12:09,720 was looking at these kinds of offenders. And I knew that this particular offender 162 00:12:09,840 --> 00:12:13,240 was not going to be responsible for the two cases that I was investigating from 163 00:12:13,240 --> 00:12:18,480 eighty six because he was already in custody by that point, but I still 164 00:12:18,480 --> 00:12:22,159 thought he could be responsible for other BOLD cases, so he really needs to 165 00:12:22,159 --> 00:12:26,000 be in the database. So I started doing some checking and was really excited 166 00:12:26,039 --> 00:12:30,799 to find out that there actually was either a blood card or a tissue block 167 00:12:30,879 --> 00:12:35,000 available at the Medical Examiner's office from his autopsy, and so I got all 168 00:12:35,000 --> 00:12:39,000 excited. I called a time lab just to be told that he didn't qualify 169 00:12:39,159 --> 00:12:43,000 to go into Cotis. Now let's just stop for a second. We're both 170 00:12:43,159 --> 00:12:50,799 like making the OMFG face here. How in the world does someone this heinus 171 00:12:52,039 --> 00:12:56,759 who's already been convicted of rape and now gets out of prison on work release, 172 00:12:56,279 --> 00:13:01,519 tracks down the woman that he attacked before brutally kills her, her eight 173 00:13:01,559 --> 00:13:05,960 year old daughter, and their neighbor who was also a witness. How in 174 00:13:07,000 --> 00:13:13,240 the world is that guy's DNA not in the system in Washington State. The 175 00:13:13,279 --> 00:13:16,440 reason he wasn't in the system already is because he was convicted before there were 176 00:13:16,480 --> 00:13:20,799 even DNA laws. He was convicted before anybody was using DNA and criminal investigations. 177 00:13:22,159 --> 00:13:26,639 However, the real issue was that he didn't qualify to go in in 178 00:13:26,720 --> 00:13:31,159 twenty eleven or whenever it was that I found his name. He didn't qualify 179 00:13:31,240 --> 00:13:35,759 to go into the database for the same reasons. He was convicted before the 180 00:13:35,840 --> 00:13:39,240 law went into effect, he died before it became retroactive for inmates, and 181 00:13:39,279 --> 00:13:45,320 so basically he fell into this loophole or gap in the system. So yet 182 00:13:45,360 --> 00:13:50,679 another example of the CODIS gap. If you don't mind spend a minute or 183 00:13:50,759 --> 00:13:56,759 two explaining for us, were civilians right and what the CODIS gap means? 184 00:13:58,759 --> 00:14:01,720 Yeah, And unfortunately there's not just one gap. There are lots of different 185 00:14:01,840 --> 00:14:09,360 reasons why offenders are missing from the database. Some of those are legislative issues 186 00:14:09,399 --> 00:14:13,440 that have to be corrected. Some of them are policy issues. Some of 187 00:14:13,480 --> 00:14:18,039 them are just because they were just missed and no one has gone back and 188 00:14:18,080 --> 00:14:22,120 taken a look at who actually owes DNA and their jurisdiction and how do we 189 00:14:22,120 --> 00:14:26,759 get it collected. For a lot of states, the way that the law 190 00:14:26,879 --> 00:14:31,960 is written for DNA collection is extremely convoluted. Sometimes I think it was written 191 00:14:33,240 --> 00:14:37,360 that way on purpose so that there could be lots of different ways to get 192 00:14:37,360 --> 00:14:41,679 that DNA into collected and into the system. But when you do that and 193 00:14:41,720 --> 00:14:46,399 you don't lay out a specific path that needs to be taken, any specific 194 00:14:46,559 --> 00:14:50,919 person who's responsible, then what happens. Everybody points the finger at somebody else 195 00:14:52,000 --> 00:14:56,200 right now their responsibility, No, your responsibility to do it. You will 196 00:14:56,200 --> 00:14:58,279 collect it when they get to prison. Oh no, you'll get it at 197 00:14:58,320 --> 00:15:01,000 the jail. Oh I thought you were to collect it in the courtroom. 198 00:15:01,360 --> 00:15:05,720 And these are all places where people's DNA theoretically could be taken, and oftentimes 199 00:15:05,799 --> 00:15:09,360 everyone assumes somebody else did it, and then it doesn't get done. Is 200 00:15:09,399 --> 00:15:13,080 there some reason why they can't take it in all three places? Just to 201 00:15:13,159 --> 00:15:16,519 make sure that they've covered their bases. I feel like there needs to be 202 00:15:16,559 --> 00:15:20,200 a flow chart here. But I'm also wondering, why don't we have multiple 203 00:15:20,240 --> 00:15:24,879 redundancies worked into the system just in case I forgot it at the courtroom. 204 00:15:24,919 --> 00:15:28,600 Don't worry. We've got it at the jail cell and we've got it elsewhere 205 00:15:28,600 --> 00:15:33,759 too. That's a good question, and I would say that the reason not 206 00:15:33,879 --> 00:15:37,080 that I agree with this, but the reason that most jurisdictions wouldn't want to 207 00:15:37,080 --> 00:15:41,639 collect it multiple times is because it's the drain on resources. Even the collection 208 00:15:41,799 --> 00:15:45,919 kits to collect the sample. You would think it's just like a cute tip, 209 00:15:46,480 --> 00:15:48,759 and that's not actually what happens when you collect a convicted of fender sample. 210 00:15:48,799 --> 00:15:52,399 There's a bit more that goes into it, to include taking fingerprints, 211 00:15:52,679 --> 00:15:58,159 documenting what the qualifying offense was. There's a little bit more that goes into 212 00:15:58,159 --> 00:16:00,440 it, and there's a cost associated with those kits. I think that's part 213 00:16:00,480 --> 00:16:04,240 of the issue. But bigger problem, in my opinion, is that we 214 00:16:04,399 --> 00:16:08,720 just have too many points along the way where someone can be missed. As 215 00:16:08,759 --> 00:16:11,799 you said, there needs to be a flow chart, and unfortunately everybody in 216 00:16:11,840 --> 00:16:15,960 the criminal justice system doesn't follow the same path. When they are convicted, 217 00:16:17,120 --> 00:16:19,639 right. Some people, when they are convicted for qualifying events, go to 218 00:16:19,720 --> 00:16:23,919 jail. Some people go to prison, some people get home monitoring, some 219 00:16:23,960 --> 00:16:30,679 people get probation. So depending on what their path is will oftentimes dictate when 220 00:16:30,840 --> 00:16:34,159 and if their sample is collected. One of the things that really shocked me 221 00:16:34,240 --> 00:16:37,919 in the article, which and will include a copy of your link to your 222 00:16:38,039 --> 00:16:42,519 article in the show notes for this episode, was the fact that in some 223 00:16:42,639 --> 00:16:48,600 jurisdictions there seems to be a policy that offenders only give their DNA when they're 224 00:16:48,679 --> 00:16:53,039 being released from prison. So they've gone in, they've served their sentence, 225 00:16:53,159 --> 00:16:59,840 they're being released back out into the community, hopefully not to reoffend. Yet 226 00:17:00,120 --> 00:17:04,359 that's the time their DNA is often taken. And that seems completely backwards to 227 00:17:04,440 --> 00:17:07,640 us. Oh yeah, do you want to go track somebody down after you've 228 00:17:07,680 --> 00:17:11,720 released him if you get a hit and now we'll find them again. No, 229 00:17:11,160 --> 00:17:15,039 And that is an old school mentality, and that's an old school policy 230 00:17:15,160 --> 00:17:21,440 to collect DNA upon release. I hope that most correctional facilities are not doing 231 00:17:21,440 --> 00:17:25,720 that any longer, but that certainly was the standard and the norm back earlier 232 00:17:25,759 --> 00:17:30,759 on when DNA laws were first being implemented, and I don't really coming from 233 00:17:30,759 --> 00:17:34,200 a cold case investigator perspective, I don't understand what kind of sense that makes. 234 00:17:34,680 --> 00:17:37,880 Just like you pointed out, I think their thought process was we'll get 235 00:17:37,880 --> 00:17:41,559 it before they leave, and they're not hurting anybody while they're in here, 236 00:17:41,599 --> 00:17:45,359 so it doesn't really matter. And I push back on this a lot as 237 00:17:45,440 --> 00:17:51,319 the family of a murder victim. Right, it isn't just about he's about 238 00:17:51,400 --> 00:17:56,920 to re enter society, hopefully to be successful and not be continuing his criminal 239 00:17:56,960 --> 00:18:00,799 ways. But for you, as an invent investigator, to find out that 240 00:18:02,160 --> 00:18:07,680 he's already out back in the community, possibly reoffending, versus when you're working 241 00:18:07,880 --> 00:18:11,440 in an investigation actively and going through a cold case. Wouldn't it make a 242 00:18:11,440 --> 00:18:15,000 heck of a lot more sense if you said, I think my guy is 243 00:18:15,079 --> 00:18:19,759 Joe Smith, and Joe Smith is at such and such prison, and I 244 00:18:19,799 --> 00:18:25,200 can go visit with him and reconfirm via DNA that I've got the right guy, 245 00:18:25,400 --> 00:18:27,640 or maybe I should be looking for another Joe Smith. Correct. Yeah, 246 00:18:27,680 --> 00:18:33,839 A controlled environment is definitely the better solution there. Once someone is released, 247 00:18:33,839 --> 00:18:37,839 you don't know where they're going to go or what's going to happen or 248 00:18:37,839 --> 00:18:40,960 what they're going to do after their release. Collecting at the time of release 249 00:18:41,079 --> 00:18:44,519 is not a great solution, in opinion. One of the things I was 250 00:18:44,559 --> 00:18:49,079 really interested in when I read your article is the fact that Ted Bundy's DNA 251 00:18:49,200 --> 00:18:55,319 isn't in cotis. That kind of blew my mind? How did that happen? 252 00:18:55,640 --> 00:18:59,799 He is probably one of the most notorious serial killers of our times. 253 00:19:00,000 --> 00:19:03,079 Does he not have his DNA and codis? That really just clowsed my mind? 254 00:19:03,000 --> 00:19:07,640 Yes, so that blew my mind as well, And that was another 255 00:19:07,960 --> 00:19:11,079 For some reason, twenty eleven was the year for me to learn about all 256 00:19:11,079 --> 00:19:15,119 these crazy things happening, and Ted Bundy was at the top of the list 257 00:19:15,160 --> 00:19:22,160 that year of shockers. I think before that I just assumed that if you're 258 00:19:22,200 --> 00:19:26,200 a serial pillar, your DNA is going to be in the national database for 259 00:19:26,279 --> 00:19:33,359 the purpose of linking cases together. But that's not necessarily the case. Really, 260 00:19:33,400 --> 00:19:37,519 it goes back to a lot of these guys that were operating in the 261 00:19:37,599 --> 00:19:45,039 seventies, eighties, even the nineties. They probably were convicted before a DNA 262 00:19:45,160 --> 00:19:48,839 law was even on the books in their jurisdiction, and depending on the state 263 00:19:48,960 --> 00:19:55,440 and depending on what their policies and procedures were and what their DNA statute says. 264 00:19:55,960 --> 00:19:59,440 The prison officials may not have ever gone back and collected from these guys 265 00:19:59,440 --> 00:20:04,319 if they were already locked up when the prison started routinely collecting samples from inmates. 266 00:20:04,440 --> 00:20:10,000 And this is this is very common to see offenders that went in before 267 00:20:10,039 --> 00:20:14,200 the DNA laws even went into effect. They just got forgotten about. Now. 268 00:20:14,240 --> 00:20:18,599 There are even some states that actually are not allowed to go back and 269 00:20:18,640 --> 00:20:23,960 collect DNA samples from individuals today who were locked up before the DNA law went 270 00:20:25,000 --> 00:20:29,039 into effect, you know. And so unless there's specific language in the statute 271 00:20:29,160 --> 00:20:33,680 about retroactivity, they don't qualify. This is the sort of thing that makes 272 00:20:33,720 --> 00:20:37,240 me insane. Oh yes, I know, and I've talked to law enforcement 273 00:20:37,319 --> 00:20:44,640 officials about this. This isn't just about convicting people. This is also about 274 00:20:44,720 --> 00:20:48,960 providing answers. And I know how victim centric you are and how family focused 275 00:20:48,960 --> 00:20:55,319 you are. The fact that there are offenders, including people that are rapists 276 00:20:55,400 --> 00:21:00,079 and murderers and multiple offenders and serial killers whose DNA is not in the KODA 277 00:21:00,240 --> 00:21:04,440 system, Kristen said. Ted Bundy obviously is the super high profile example, 278 00:21:04,519 --> 00:21:11,000 but you actually worked to get his DNA Bundy's DNA into the system even though 279 00:21:11,160 --> 00:21:15,680 he was in Florida and you're all the way in Washington State. How did 280 00:21:15,680 --> 00:21:19,200 that work? Believe it or not. Our oldest cold case on the books 281 00:21:19,200 --> 00:21:25,559 in Tacoma is the nineteen sixty one abduction of Anne Marie Bird. She was 282 00:21:25,599 --> 00:21:27,640 an eight year old who went missing from her home in the middle of the 283 00:21:27,720 --> 00:21:32,720 night in Tacoma. If her case is still unsolved today, she's never been 284 00:21:32,720 --> 00:21:37,720 found ted Bundy came onto the scene as a suspect in her case after he 285 00:21:37,880 --> 00:21:42,599 was revealed to be who he was. He was also born and raised in 286 00:21:42,640 --> 00:21:48,799 Tacoma. He also lived in the North End of Tacoma, and there were 287 00:21:48,839 --> 00:21:52,759 lots of wild rumors he was her paper boy, they knew each other. 288 00:21:52,799 --> 00:21:55,559 I don't know. None of that stuff is true. But the fact of 289 00:21:55,599 --> 00:21:59,480 the matter is he was a high profile serial killer living in Tacoma at the 290 00:21:59,480 --> 00:22:03,480 time this went missing. He of course was a suspect in her case. 291 00:22:03,720 --> 00:22:07,319 Now, he was only fourteen at the time that she went missing, and 292 00:22:07,400 --> 00:22:10,880 there's lots of debate about whether or not he actually could have done it. 293 00:22:11,359 --> 00:22:12,680 But aside from that, I thought, Okay, we're going to be re 294 00:22:12,759 --> 00:22:17,359 examining this cold case. We're going to be sending things out to the crime 295 00:22:17,440 --> 00:22:23,519 lab for testing. Do we even have anything to compare too if we get 296 00:22:23,720 --> 00:22:27,319 some DNA evidence from this crime scene, from these crime scene items that were 297 00:22:27,319 --> 00:22:33,319 collected in nineteen sixty one. And so I started making calls again and quickly 298 00:22:33,359 --> 00:22:37,279 found out No, Ted Bundy's DNA is not in CODIS in Washington because he's 299 00:22:37,279 --> 00:22:41,160 not been convicted of any crimes in Washington. Even though he confessed to eleven 300 00:22:41,240 --> 00:22:45,799 murders in Washington, he was never convicted for any in Washington, so he 301 00:22:45,839 --> 00:22:51,000 doesn't qualify for CODIS in Washington. But he was convicted in Florida, and 302 00:22:51,039 --> 00:22:55,880 that's where he was ultimately executed. So I ended up contacting authorities in Florida. 303 00:22:56,559 --> 00:23:00,440 Contacted a medical examiner's office where he was had his autopsy for he was 304 00:23:00,480 --> 00:23:04,920 executed. They had tried to do DNA testing at one point, but it 305 00:23:04,960 --> 00:23:10,559 was the old style RFLP DNA testing, which does look back to COTIS. 306 00:23:10,559 --> 00:23:12,920 It's a different type of testing, and they didn't have anything left to do 307 00:23:14,279 --> 00:23:18,839 current DNA testing using STRs. So then it was like Okay, who else 308 00:23:18,839 --> 00:23:22,920 can I call? So I ended up calling the Florida State COTIS administrator, 309 00:23:23,119 --> 00:23:27,079 so, like every state has basically a manager of their CODIS database. So 310 00:23:27,200 --> 00:23:33,559 I call him and he tells me that he gets called several times a year 311 00:23:33,759 --> 00:23:37,359 from detectives asking him the same question from all over the country. Is Ted 312 00:23:37,400 --> 00:23:41,319 Bundy's DNA and CODIS? His answer was no, it's not. And so 313 00:23:41,400 --> 00:23:45,400 I'm like, Okay, this is the problem. So how do we fix 314 00:23:45,440 --> 00:23:48,599 this? How do we find a sample? So we put our heads together 315 00:23:48,920 --> 00:23:56,279 and came up with basically some a strategy for locating a sample. I decided 316 00:23:56,279 --> 00:23:59,680 that I was going to reach out to Ann Rule here in Washington, because 317 00:24:00,240 --> 00:24:03,240 had of course had read her books, and I knew that she had written 318 00:24:03,440 --> 00:24:07,119 Bundy in prison and he had written her, and I knew that she kept 319 00:24:07,440 --> 00:24:11,319 the letters that he wrote her with stamp Oh wow. Interesting, thought, 320 00:24:11,759 --> 00:24:15,599 wow wow, And so I was like, I don't know, it probably 321 00:24:15,640 --> 00:24:18,720 won't qualify for CODIS, but even if we could get a profile to do 322 00:24:18,759 --> 00:24:22,519 a keyboard search or a one to one comparison, we can be better than 323 00:24:22,559 --> 00:24:23,960 the things that. So I met with Ann Role, got to have lunch 324 00:24:25,039 --> 00:24:30,160 with her, wow, which was really cool. She signed my book The 325 00:24:30,200 --> 00:24:34,119 Stranger Beside Me, which you go which is one of the reasons why you 326 00:24:34,240 --> 00:24:38,960 got into the field in the first place. And then she handed me multiple 327 00:24:40,079 --> 00:24:44,799 letters and envelopes that she had been keeping in her safe for all these years, 328 00:24:44,960 --> 00:24:48,400 and so I took those back to the police department, and my intent 329 00:24:48,519 --> 00:24:51,680 was to send those out to the crime lab. At the same time, 330 00:24:52,240 --> 00:24:57,920 the CODIS administrator in Florida had located these wax molds of Bundy's teeth. So 331 00:24:57,960 --> 00:25:03,960 after he got arrested for the Kyomega murders, they took wax molds of his 332 00:25:03,079 --> 00:25:07,000 teeth because he had those unusual He had very unusual teeth, but there were 333 00:25:07,000 --> 00:25:11,400 bite marks on at least one of the victims. They still had the wax 334 00:25:11,480 --> 00:25:15,079 molds of his teeth at the crime lab. Apparently they have like a Bundy 335 00:25:15,160 --> 00:25:19,519 museum of sorts. At the crime lab. They had these wax molds. 336 00:25:19,799 --> 00:25:23,759 He attempted to swab those and potentially get a profile from the wax molds, 337 00:25:25,079 --> 00:25:29,240 but he didn't get enough of a profile to develop for CODIS. But he 338 00:25:29,400 --> 00:25:34,640 was able to somehow locate a vial of Bundy's blood that had been collected in 339 00:25:34,759 --> 00:25:40,799 nineteen seventy eight at the time of the rest in Pensacola, and it was 340 00:25:41,119 --> 00:25:45,920 in a safe in a clerk's office at a room temperature. I was going 341 00:25:45,000 --> 00:25:48,920 to say, this was sitting in a refrigerator somewhere, right, refrigerator, 342 00:25:49,920 --> 00:25:55,680 a room temperature safe in Florida since nineteen seventy eight. Oh my gosh, 343 00:25:55,960 --> 00:25:59,680 let's me an ideal. Yeah, so that's not going to be good at 344 00:25:59,759 --> 00:26:03,759 black is going to be completely broken down. So he wasn't hopeful that he 345 00:26:03,839 --> 00:26:07,640 was going to be able to get anything from it. But miraculously, while 346 00:26:07,680 --> 00:26:11,839 the blood itself in the bile was not going to be worth anything, there 347 00:26:11,960 --> 00:26:18,519 was dried blood on the lid of the vacuue tanner. He was able to 348 00:26:18,559 --> 00:26:22,880 flake off a couple of little pieces of dried blood. Wow, there's enough 349 00:26:22,920 --> 00:26:29,079 there to get a full profile. It worked, surely, Cow. Then 350 00:26:29,559 --> 00:26:33,119 the profile was entered into Florida's database and that's where it was going to stay 351 00:26:33,400 --> 00:26:37,759 because he didn't qualify to go into the national database. Wait a minute, 352 00:26:38,160 --> 00:26:41,839 yeah, this makes no sense. We're both looking at each other like what 353 00:26:42,960 --> 00:26:47,039 Yeah, that's what I said. So I'm like, this is good I'm 354 00:26:47,039 --> 00:26:52,599 glad that he's in Florida's database, but that doesn't go if he's not in 355 00:26:52,640 --> 00:26:56,839 the national database. Let's say he committed a homicide or sexual assault in Washington 356 00:26:57,599 --> 00:27:03,519 and we've got evidence on a case in Washington that doesn't meet the criteria to 357 00:27:03,599 --> 00:27:07,920 make it up to the national database, will never get a match. And 358 00:27:07,160 --> 00:27:12,759 basically, after some legal wrangling with the INDUS Custodian and US IS the national 359 00:27:12,799 --> 00:27:18,039 D and DA database, it was decided that the sample would go into the 360 00:27:18,160 --> 00:27:22,599 national database in the legal index. So he is not in the offender index. 361 00:27:22,640 --> 00:27:26,400 He's in the legal index. However, he's still the legal index still 362 00:27:26,440 --> 00:27:32,400 searches against the crime scene or forensic index. So that's basically what we need. 363 00:27:32,480 --> 00:27:36,119 We need his profile to be searching against crime scene profiles. And it 364 00:27:36,200 --> 00:27:42,119 is now as of twenty twelve, you're listening to Mind over Murder. We'll 365 00:27:42,160 --> 00:28:02,519 be right back after this word from our sponsors, we're back here at mindover 366 00:28:02,599 --> 00:28:07,599 Murder. Before we get back to the podcast, just wanted to remind you 367 00:28:07,680 --> 00:28:12,359 that we have a go fundme effort going on right now. This campaign is 368 00:28:12,400 --> 00:28:18,799 designed to help us raise funds to help promote mind over murder, and specifically 369 00:28:18,000 --> 00:28:23,359 to push the Colonial Parkway murders investigation forward. We'd love it if you could 370 00:28:23,400 --> 00:28:29,400 support us in any way that you can. Any donation from five dollars to 371 00:28:29,480 --> 00:28:33,039 whatever you can afford is very much appreciated and will be incredibly helpful. The 372 00:28:33,119 --> 00:28:37,759 link is in the show notes and in our social media pages. As always, 373 00:28:37,759 --> 00:28:45,880 thanks for your support. Now back to mindover Murder. So I don't 374 00:28:45,960 --> 00:28:52,599 understand why do CODIS laws and policies vary from state to state. Wouldn't it 375 00:28:52,640 --> 00:28:56,839 just make more sense. Do you have one set of national policies and that 376 00:28:56,920 --> 00:29:00,319 way we are all on the same page one hundred percent of the time or 377 00:29:00,559 --> 00:29:04,599 I don't know. Am I thinking about it too simplistically? It just it 378 00:29:04,599 --> 00:29:08,039 seems like the obvious answer would be yes, it's better to have one set 379 00:29:08,039 --> 00:29:12,960 of policies. Why are we doing fifty states fifty policies. I think the 380 00:29:14,079 --> 00:29:19,640 reason is because every state gets to make their own laws, and CODIS rules 381 00:29:21,359 --> 00:29:26,759 are directly related to the laws in that particular state. One state can do 382 00:29:26,200 --> 00:29:30,559 certain things, another state cannot. Some states take DNA upon arrest, and 383 00:29:30,759 --> 00:29:36,240 some states like mine do not. Every state because they all have different laws 384 00:29:36,599 --> 00:29:41,680 with regard to who owes a DNA sample. That makes it very convoluted and 385 00:29:41,759 --> 00:29:47,440 very complicated because every state then has a different standard for who can be entered 386 00:29:47,480 --> 00:29:52,319 into the database. I'm going to chime in here and say, this is 387 00:29:52,480 --> 00:30:02,079 insane, the fact that we have allowed this system to develop. This makes 388 00:30:02,400 --> 00:30:10,640 no sense whatsoever. Offenders offend all over the place. And the Bundy example 389 00:30:10,680 --> 00:30:15,759 that we just spoke about, which was fascinating, but I had forgotten that 390 00:30:15,000 --> 00:30:22,240 he had lived in Tacoma, Washington, and yet I associate him with offenses 391 00:30:22,440 --> 00:30:25,880 in other parts of the country. And of course we know the story about 392 00:30:25,880 --> 00:30:32,200 Florida because we've talked with Kathy Klina Rubin about surviving Ted Bondy's attack when she 393 00:30:32,319 --> 00:30:37,319 was a college student in Florida. This makes no sense. And I'll go 394 00:30:37,440 --> 00:30:41,079 a step further. Now. I'm not a professional, and Kristen isn't either, 395 00:30:41,319 --> 00:30:45,720 but I am the brother of a murder victim. It's my intention to 396 00:30:45,960 --> 00:30:52,200 pivot. When we solve the Colonial Parkway murders, it's my intention to pivot 397 00:30:52,279 --> 00:30:56,799 to this larger issue of two hundred and fifty thousand cold case homicides across the 398 00:30:56,880 --> 00:31:02,880 United States. This is so so half asked as to not be believed. 399 00:31:03,279 --> 00:31:10,000 We're not running the country like a real country. You can't have fifty different 400 00:31:10,039 --> 00:31:14,759 sets of rules. We need one set of rules for the entire country. 401 00:31:14,960 --> 00:31:18,799 And quite frankly, I think the databases should all be shared as well. 402 00:31:19,359 --> 00:31:23,960 I thought that was the idea of CODIS. It feels to me like we 403 00:31:25,079 --> 00:31:30,839 need to revamp this entire system. I can't believe that every single state Virginia 404 00:31:30,920 --> 00:31:37,960 in the Colonial Parkway murders example, every state has a different set of rules 405 00:31:37,960 --> 00:31:45,799 and parameters. As Kristin was saying, this is insane. It's very complicated, 406 00:31:45,920 --> 00:31:51,000 and I completely understand your frustration because I've lived at I can't even tell 407 00:31:51,000 --> 00:31:53,119 you how many times I just felt like banging my head against a wall because 408 00:31:53,519 --> 00:31:59,720 things that seem like constants are not necessarily and unfortunately, what it's going to 409 00:31:59,799 --> 00:32:02,680 take is legislation. That's the bottom line is it's going to take either some 410 00:32:02,759 --> 00:32:07,799 type of federal legislation to mandate that all the states have the same rules, 411 00:32:07,920 --> 00:32:10,839 or it's going to each individual state is going to have to amend their DNA 412 00:32:10,880 --> 00:32:15,480 collection statutes so that everyone's on the same page. And honestly, you can't 413 00:32:15,480 --> 00:32:20,559 even get all the states to agree on collecting DNA upon arrest. So I 414 00:32:20,559 --> 00:32:23,079 think we need one set of rules, and I think the lack of leadership 415 00:32:23,119 --> 00:32:29,359 by the Department of Justice here is shocking. For God's sake, develop one 416 00:32:29,480 --> 00:32:35,880 set of parameters and these will oversee what should be a federal system. You 417 00:32:36,000 --> 00:32:39,440 can't have one set of rules in Oklahoma and a different set of rules in 418 00:32:39,519 --> 00:32:45,680 Tennessee or Washington State and Florida. It just doesn't make any sense. Unfortunately. 419 00:32:46,119 --> 00:32:50,720 Yeah, every state has their own DNA database, and so I don't 420 00:32:50,720 --> 00:32:53,559 know if you're really familiar with how cotis works, but cotis is a software 421 00:32:53,680 --> 00:32:59,519 That's what cotis is. It's a software program the DNA database itself. There 422 00:32:59,519 --> 00:33:04,720 are multi levels of what we call codis, So there's oftentimes states will have 423 00:33:04,839 --> 00:33:09,880 local levels of cotis where maybe their individual crime labs have a database within the 424 00:33:09,920 --> 00:33:15,480 state, and then they've got their ESTIE database, which is their state database, 425 00:33:15,960 --> 00:33:20,440 and then there's the national database. And so the samples that are in 426 00:33:20,480 --> 00:33:23,920 the state database, if they meet their criteria, they can be uploaded to 427 00:33:23,960 --> 00:33:29,039 the national database and then they can be searched against other profiles that are in 428 00:33:29,079 --> 00:33:32,960 the National database, so that the only DNA database that the FBI controls is 429 00:33:34,359 --> 00:33:37,880 the National DNA database. The other ones are controlled by the states. Now, 430 00:33:37,920 --> 00:33:42,519 they still have to abide by COTIS rules which are set forth by the 431 00:33:42,559 --> 00:33:46,200 FBI, but again they have to abide by their own state laws as to 432 00:33:46,440 --> 00:33:52,680 whose DNA can go into the system. And I mentioned earlier that there are 433 00:33:52,920 --> 00:33:57,880 samples that don't meet the requirement to go into the national database. That's something 434 00:33:57,920 --> 00:34:01,359 that I don't think most people know. We're understand there are some cases, 435 00:34:01,880 --> 00:34:07,079 both offender samples and crime scene evidence samples that don't make it into the national 436 00:34:07,199 --> 00:34:13,800 database. And this is because the sample may they may not have obtained enough 437 00:34:13,840 --> 00:34:17,800 core low side or locations on the genome identified when they did the DNA testing 438 00:34:17,920 --> 00:34:23,760 to upload it to the national database. Most state DNA databases have a lower 439 00:34:23,800 --> 00:34:29,239 threshold and a lower number of core low side that they have to obtain in 440 00:34:29,360 --> 00:34:32,000 order to enter that profile into their state level. But once you go up 441 00:34:32,000 --> 00:34:37,480 to national the standard is higher, right because you have more profiles, so 442 00:34:37,519 --> 00:34:40,280 you have to be more discerning with those profiles. That's something that even a 443 00:34:40,280 --> 00:34:45,440 lot of investigators don't understand when they're working cold cases is when someone tells you, 444 00:34:45,599 --> 00:34:49,360 oh, yes, the profiles and code is, you should be asking 445 00:34:49,519 --> 00:34:52,800 where one level lindsay, I feel like we need to sit down at crime 446 00:34:52,840 --> 00:34:57,840 kind and come up with a flow chart that shows all of these different levels 447 00:34:57,840 --> 00:35:00,960 of it, because even now you've just explained and it's so beautifully, but 448 00:35:00,159 --> 00:35:05,000 it's I'm not going to be able to retain this because there's not because of 449 00:35:05,039 --> 00:35:07,880 the way that you've explained it or anything like that, but just because it 450 00:35:07,960 --> 00:35:12,760 is head spinning. It just seems so counterintuitive. It really does feel like 451 00:35:12,880 --> 00:35:16,880 it should be the national database and the state databases feed into it. You're 452 00:35:16,920 --> 00:35:20,920 saying that it doesn't work like that, and that's making me go, but 453 00:35:21,119 --> 00:35:24,719 why it's I'm sure that's very frustrating. It is, and it's I would 454 00:35:24,760 --> 00:35:29,239 say more than I think at this point. As a as an investigator, 455 00:35:29,239 --> 00:35:30,840 you just have to really educate yourself. If you're going to work cold cases, 456 00:35:30,840 --> 00:35:37,599 you better understand how CODIS works and understand that just because you have a 457 00:35:37,639 --> 00:35:42,440 suspect that's in prison doesn't mean they're in CODUS. Just because your suspects in 458 00:35:42,480 --> 00:35:45,880 CODIS doesn't mean they're at the national level of CODIS. Just because your crime 459 00:35:45,880 --> 00:35:47,800 setne evidence is in CODIS, it doesn't mean it's at the national level of 460 00:35:47,800 --> 00:35:52,320 CODIS. They need to understand, like how do I confirm that? How 461 00:35:52,360 --> 00:35:53,800 do I find this out? And then if it's not, how do I 462 00:35:53,880 --> 00:35:59,320 what do I do about it? So theoretically, is there a way to 463 00:35:59,480 --> 00:36:05,360 get one hundred percent of all offenders currently incarcerated into CODIS. Is there a 464 00:36:05,400 --> 00:36:08,280 way to do this or is it just not going to work the way that 465 00:36:08,320 --> 00:36:15,800 we optimistically want it to. That's a trick question, Chris, because not 466 00:36:15,960 --> 00:36:21,400 intentional, not intentionally at all, Like this is from a civilian standpoint, 467 00:36:21,559 --> 00:36:24,159 someone who wants the best for victims. That my question is, why can't 468 00:36:24,199 --> 00:36:29,000 we go through and just swab everybody and toss them all in there? I'm 469 00:36:29,039 --> 00:36:32,360 guessing that isn't the answer, though theoretically we should be able to do that. 470 00:36:32,559 --> 00:36:36,559 It really depends and I hate to go back to the state, but 471 00:36:37,199 --> 00:36:43,000 it depends on that particular state's law if their laws retroactive. So that's one 472 00:36:43,079 --> 00:36:45,679 hurdle, and then two is actually getting somebody to go back and count doesn't 473 00:36:45,719 --> 00:36:51,000 take legislation, it doesn't take anything special. It just takes someone to go 474 00:36:51,079 --> 00:36:54,159 back and actually do a census or a survey to identify. Okay, I 475 00:36:54,159 --> 00:36:58,000 want a list of everybody in prison in our state, and then we're going 476 00:36:58,039 --> 00:37:00,800 to cross reference that against the code of database and find out who's in there 477 00:37:00,840 --> 00:37:04,719 and who's not. That's not rocket science. Yeah, but I can tell 478 00:37:04,760 --> 00:37:09,000 you that that's not happening. This has not yet been identified as a major 479 00:37:09,159 --> 00:37:15,480 issue nationally. I'm making the aha face because I actually think we've talked with 480 00:37:15,559 --> 00:37:21,360 you about this before, We've talked with Rock Harmon and other experts about this. 481 00:37:21,960 --> 00:37:28,119 I actually think we need to steer this in a direction where this becomes 482 00:37:28,519 --> 00:37:31,599 a national conversation. The other thing is I've said on Mind over Murder and 483 00:37:31,679 --> 00:37:36,400 Kristen has two the fact that there are two hundred and fifty thousand cold case 484 00:37:36,400 --> 00:37:42,960 homicides, which maybe a conservative number, even that is not something that's well 485 00:37:43,000 --> 00:37:46,719 known in our opinion, and it should be a national scandal because we've all 486 00:37:47,000 --> 00:37:52,880 watched these procedurals on TV, which are fun to watch, but as we 487 00:37:52,960 --> 00:37:57,599 all know, not terribly realistic. We've all been sold a bill of goods, 488 00:37:57,639 --> 00:38:02,960 which is that we think that crimes are solved quickly and easily in state 489 00:38:04,000 --> 00:38:07,760 of the art labs with lots of colored water or something going up and down 490 00:38:07,920 --> 00:38:14,199 with bubbles, and exceptionally well dressed and often quite lovely people, both women 491 00:38:14,239 --> 00:38:16,559 and men, solving all of these cases in forty eight minutes or less. 492 00:38:16,599 --> 00:38:22,320 And yet you're here to tell us that's not the reality. No, I 493 00:38:22,360 --> 00:38:27,639 fully understand where you're coming from. On the cold cases. Why do we 494 00:38:27,679 --> 00:38:31,360 not have a national cold case database? Yeah, yes, yes, great 495 00:38:31,440 --> 00:38:37,239 question. We agree, and I will give Virginia mad props here. Virginia 496 00:38:37,599 --> 00:38:43,199 just started a cold case database. Hats off to them for doing it. 497 00:38:43,880 --> 00:38:47,320 The issue that I have found, though, is someone who goes scrolling through 498 00:38:47,360 --> 00:38:52,480 the cold case database here in Virginia on the regular is it is almost impossible 499 00:38:52,519 --> 00:38:58,119 to use. It is very hard to search. It is even when you 500 00:38:58,199 --> 00:39:00,239 put in the names of people that you know to be victims, they don't 501 00:39:00,280 --> 00:39:05,559 always come up. Not every cold case is in there, and we don't 502 00:39:05,559 --> 00:39:09,559 have a really good explanation for why that might or might not be. I 503 00:39:09,599 --> 00:39:14,480 love the idea of a national cold case database, but if it is done, 504 00:39:14,519 --> 00:39:17,239 boy, I hope it's going to be managed a little bit better and 505 00:39:17,280 --> 00:39:21,320 made a little more user friendly than some of the ones that I know were 506 00:39:21,320 --> 00:39:24,679 at the various state levels, but honestly waiting to get Amazon to build it, 507 00:39:24,760 --> 00:39:28,280 right, because all you have to do is just look at your Amazon 508 00:39:28,320 --> 00:39:30,840 car and it knows what you're searching for. So basically you just have to 509 00:39:30,880 --> 00:39:36,039 talk about Amazon, and now you've got all these these suggestions about things you 510 00:39:36,119 --> 00:39:37,920 might like. That's basically what you need your cold case database to do. 511 00:39:38,000 --> 00:39:42,239 Right. Yeah, you're searching for this person that's going to give you a 512 00:39:42,280 --> 00:39:45,960 list automatically of other cases that potentially might be associated. Yeah, seriously, 513 00:39:46,000 --> 00:39:50,199 the people who run Amazon need to be doing all of this stuff like. 514 00:39:50,280 --> 00:39:53,239 They've clearly got it together. They have somehow managed to optimize it. We 515 00:39:53,320 --> 00:39:59,320 need this as well. Yeah, that's because our phones listen to our conversations 516 00:39:59,320 --> 00:40:04,960 and then suddenly start suggesting things. Yes, but perhaps we should talk more 517 00:40:05,000 --> 00:40:08,000 loudly in the kitchen sometime about the fact that we need a national cold case 518 00:40:08,079 --> 00:40:14,199 database. Yes, exactly, and maybe that's a good I was trying to 519 00:40:14,239 --> 00:40:16,039 think. I don't know who else going to be at crime con but there 520 00:40:16,119 --> 00:40:21,079 have to be some movers and shakers and people there that can make something like 521 00:40:21,119 --> 00:40:22,840 this happen. I don't know, and it doesn't seem like rocket science. 522 00:40:22,920 --> 00:40:29,159 We do have name this which is great. Namous is for unidentified and missing 523 00:40:29,199 --> 00:40:32,239 persons. It is not cold case homicides. I don't want to let you 524 00:40:32,360 --> 00:40:38,360 off the call without asking you a little bit about the SAKI grant program, 525 00:40:38,480 --> 00:40:46,079 Sexual Assault Kit Initiative program, because the SAKE program here in Virginia is actually 526 00:40:46,119 --> 00:40:52,840 what led to the recent identification of an offender in three of the cases associated 527 00:40:52,840 --> 00:40:59,079 with the Colonial Parkway murders. Let me just ask one generalized question, why 528 00:40:59,119 --> 00:41:05,119 are the numbers so low of the number of law enforcement agencies that are utilizing 529 00:41:05,159 --> 00:41:08,320 the SAKI grants here? As Christen said, just a moment ago, the 530 00:41:08,360 --> 00:41:15,719 folks at the Virginia Department of Forensic Science applied for SAKI grants, which we 531 00:41:15,880 --> 00:41:22,800 totally supported, and that led directly to the identification of an offender after thirty 532 00:41:22,840 --> 00:41:29,159 seven years of waiting for answers. So we're thrilled and we really appreciate the 533 00:41:29,199 --> 00:41:32,400 work that's being done. Do you know have any sense of how could we 534 00:41:32,480 --> 00:41:38,000 make the SAKE program more widely used? Is that a fair question and one 535 00:41:38,039 --> 00:41:43,519 you could answer. You know, it's available to any law enforcement agency that 536 00:41:43,559 --> 00:41:45,519 applies, not that everyone would get it if they apply. It's like it's 537 00:41:45,519 --> 00:41:49,119 a federal grant. You have to apply and you have to respond to a 538 00:41:49,159 --> 00:41:52,320 solicitation that comes out annually, and it's a standard federal grant. And I'm 539 00:41:52,360 --> 00:41:57,039 pretty sure most law enforcement agencies are well aware of the federal grants that are 540 00:41:57,079 --> 00:42:00,079 available. Yeah, I'd love to see it more widely used. And of 541 00:42:00,119 --> 00:42:05,719 course we're an example of here's a case now that's very near and dear to 542 00:42:05,760 --> 00:42:10,440 our hearts that's moving forward again because Virginia applied for and got ZACKI grants and 543 00:42:10,480 --> 00:42:15,880 they're out there working it. Our understanding is they're continuing to do so, 544 00:42:15,920 --> 00:42:21,119 and this gives families like mine and folks across the country will hope that their 545 00:42:21,360 --> 00:42:24,639 cases are going to be solved. And we understand that in a case like 546 00:42:24,679 --> 00:42:29,400 ours that's thirty seven years old, there was a real good chance that this 547 00:42:29,480 --> 00:42:32,320 offender and perhaps others. We understand they may be dead. It's been a 548 00:42:32,360 --> 00:42:37,079 long time. But at the same time, those answers that I mentioned a 549 00:42:37,159 --> 00:42:43,360 few minutes ago are so important and they're inquity meaningful to the family. Yeah, 550 00:42:43,920 --> 00:42:52,719 and I'm a really big proponent of evaluating deceased offenders for DNA locily DNA 551 00:42:52,800 --> 00:42:59,039 collections for that very reason, because I've taught classes and given presentations on collecting 552 00:42:59,159 --> 00:43:04,639 DNA samples for offenders who have slipped through the cracks, and oftentimes people will 553 00:43:04,639 --> 00:43:07,840 say, why does it matter? Why do you care about collecting samples from 554 00:43:07,840 --> 00:43:13,119 somebody who's dead, Just exactly as you just stated, because someone out there 555 00:43:13,199 --> 00:43:15,599 is waiting for an answer. Someone wants to know what happened to their loved 556 00:43:15,639 --> 00:43:21,599 one. Victims want answers, And frankly, do you really want your law 557 00:43:21,639 --> 00:43:27,480 enforcement agencies spending time and resources investigating cases and spinning their wheels when the answer 558 00:43:27,679 --> 00:43:30,400 could be sitting right in front of them. Yeah, exactly, And as 559 00:43:30,440 --> 00:43:35,440 you were saying at the top of this conversation, in the example that you 560 00:43:35,719 --> 00:43:39,920 walked us through, that was a situation where the offender had been put to 561 00:43:40,000 --> 00:43:45,199 death by the State of Washington years before, and yet answers were provided as 562 00:43:45,239 --> 00:43:52,039 a result of your and your teams working together to look for these answers. 563 00:43:52,280 --> 00:43:59,679 The offender dispatched, but the answers for those families were incredibly important and meaningful. 564 00:44:00,119 --> 00:44:04,800 That's why I reminded everybody in law enforcement. It isn't just about putting 565 00:44:04,800 --> 00:44:10,039 offenders away or appropriate levels of punishment. It's also for answers for those families 566 00:44:10,079 --> 00:44:15,360 that are waiting, sometimes for decades. Absolutely, this most recent case was 567 00:44:15,400 --> 00:44:22,079 almost fifty years old, forty nine years old. That victim's family for forty 568 00:44:22,159 --> 00:44:25,239 nine years had no idea who was responsible. I don't know if that helps 569 00:44:25,280 --> 00:44:30,320 them to know who did it. I don't know that I can say that. 570 00:44:30,639 --> 00:44:32,280 I hope it gives them at least some peace of mind that law enforcement 571 00:44:32,280 --> 00:44:37,920 didn't forget about them, and that someone still cared enough to still work on 572 00:44:37,960 --> 00:44:42,079 it, and that Charles Campbell was never a suspect in that case. He 573 00:44:42,760 --> 00:44:45,280 was not on the radar for that case at all, in any way, 574 00:44:45,320 --> 00:44:49,320 shape or form, never would have been linked to that case otherwise had it 575 00:44:49,360 --> 00:44:52,239 not been for the DNA. I can say for sure that in the Colonial 576 00:44:52,280 --> 00:44:57,719 Parkway murders, we've spoken to those other family members who received this news, 577 00:44:58,119 --> 00:45:02,400 and Kristin and I talked about this times recently. I hope people can understand 578 00:45:02,400 --> 00:45:07,840 that you've been looking for answers for that long. It's actually good news to 579 00:45:08,000 --> 00:45:13,400 have a question that's been hanging over your family for decades, have an answer. 580 00:45:13,960 --> 00:45:17,000 The answer was never going to be a truly satisfying one, but at 581 00:45:17,119 --> 00:45:22,880 least they know what happened to their loved one and they have a somewhat better 582 00:45:22,960 --> 00:45:28,079 understanding of how and why this happened. It was never going to make complete 583 00:45:28,119 --> 00:45:32,639 sense, and it wasn't going to be acceptable to them, but they have 584 00:45:32,800 --> 00:45:38,480 answers that they've been seeking for more than thirty years exactly well, for a 585 00:45:38,559 --> 00:45:44,039 lot of victims and survivors and family members of victims, I don't know if 586 00:45:44,039 --> 00:45:49,119 satisfied is the right word, but they are pleased with just receiving news that 587 00:45:49,159 --> 00:45:52,119 someone is working on the case and that someone cares and that they haven't been 588 00:45:52,119 --> 00:45:58,239 forgotten, even if at the end of the day they don't get what they 589 00:45:58,320 --> 00:46:00,679 ultimately wanted, or maybe they don't get the the sentence that they ultimately wanted, 590 00:46:00,760 --> 00:46:04,800 or maybe the of vendors dead, and so they don't actually get punished. 591 00:46:05,320 --> 00:46:08,679 As you said, sometimes it's just having the answer. And I just 592 00:46:08,719 --> 00:46:13,440 from my experience working with victims and with family members of victims, a lot 593 00:46:13,440 --> 00:46:17,519 of I've had people tell me that it really just changed a lot of things 594 00:46:17,519 --> 00:46:22,239 for them, just knowing that someone actually cared about them enough to pick up 595 00:46:22,280 --> 00:46:24,519 the phone or drive to their house, sit down with them and talk. 596 00:46:24,639 --> 00:46:30,400 And not everybody wants that, but some people do, and people just they 597 00:46:30,440 --> 00:46:35,760 want to know that the police or the law enforcement agency is still actually cares 598 00:46:35,760 --> 00:46:38,800 about them and that they're not just a number or a statistic or that they 599 00:46:39,159 --> 00:46:43,599 have been moved to the side to handle current cases that are coming in. 600 00:46:44,239 --> 00:46:46,199 Very well said, so, Lindsay, we will put a link to your 601 00:46:46,320 --> 00:46:51,159 article in our show notes, but tell everybody where they can find your book 602 00:46:51,239 --> 00:46:55,079 in my DNA. My book is available anywhere you can buy books Amazon, 603 00:46:55,519 --> 00:47:00,679 Barnes and Noble, Target, Walmart, or you can buy it directly from 604 00:47:01,199 --> 00:47:05,920 the publisher's website, which is actually better for me. So if you just 605 00:47:05,960 --> 00:47:09,239 spe you can order it from one Idea at press dot com. Lindsay, 606 00:47:09,320 --> 00:47:13,239 thank you so much for joining us, and we look forward to seeing you 607 00:47:13,400 --> 00:47:15,760 at Crime Con in just a couple of days. Me too. Thanks for 608 00:47:15,800 --> 00:47:20,280 having me. That is going to do it for this episode of Mind Over 609 00:47:20,360 --> 00:47:22,599 Murder. Thank you so much for listening. We'll see you next time. 610 00:47:32,320 --> 00:47:38,079 Mind Over Murder is a production of Absolute Zero and another Dog Productions. Our 611 00:47:38,119 --> 00:47:44,400 executive producers are Bill Thomas and Kristin Dilley. Our logo art is by Pamela 612 00:47:44,559 --> 00:47:49,960 Arnois. Our theme music is by Kevin McLoud. Mind Over Murder is distributed 613 00:47:50,000 --> 00:47:54,159 in partnership with crawl Space Media. You can follow us on Facebook, Twitter, 614 00:47:54,280 --> 00:47:59,360 or Instagram. You can also follow our page on the Colonial Parkway Murders 615 00:47:59,440 --> 00:48:02,840 on Facebook, and finally, you can follow Bill Thomas on Twitter at Bill 616 00:48:02,920 --> 00:48:07,639 Thomas five six. Thank you for listening to mind Over Murder.