1 00:00:17,399 --> 00:00:21,120 We're back with another edition of The Federalist Radio Hour. I'm Emily Dashinsky, 2 00:00:21,160 --> 00:00:23,960 culture editor here at the Federalist. As always, you can email the show 3 00:00:24,000 --> 00:00:28,120 at radio at the Federalist dot com, follow us on exit fdr LST. 4 00:00:28,359 --> 00:00:32,359 Make sure to subscribe wherever you download your podcasts, and to the premium version 5 00:00:32,399 --> 00:00:36,479 of our website as well. I'm joined today by Christopher Bedford, executive editor 6 00:00:36,520 --> 00:00:40,240 over at the Common Sense Society, and our guest is Charlie Spearing. Charlie 7 00:00:40,240 --> 00:00:45,719 is a political reporter and author of the new book Amateur Hour Kamala Harris in 8 00:00:45,799 --> 00:00:49,079 the White House. Great title, Charlie, thanks so much for joining us. 9 00:00:49,679 --> 00:00:53,280 Thanks so much, Emily, And we kind of were going for a 10 00:00:53,320 --> 00:00:56,320 little bit of VP, but also a little bit of a House of Cards, 11 00:00:56,359 --> 00:01:00,280 a little bit of both. You know, there is some comparisons being 12 00:01:00,399 --> 00:01:06,040 drawn to Ronda Santis in the last couple of weeks, just before we're recording 13 00:01:06,079 --> 00:01:08,560 this. You know, the Desantas campaign obviously didn't make it to New Hampshire, 14 00:01:08,799 --> 00:01:11,719 came in second in Iowa, and Kamala Harris didn't even make it to 15 00:01:11,760 --> 00:01:18,840 Iowa. So I'm not so sure those comparisons are totally apt. I think, 16 00:01:18,959 --> 00:01:21,359 yeah, there was a few people that were comparing him to you know, 17 00:01:21,599 --> 00:01:25,239 that Randa Santis is somehow are Kamala Harris. But yeah, he made 18 00:01:25,280 --> 00:01:27,879 it a little further than Kamala who spent you know, forty million and didn't 19 00:01:27,879 --> 00:01:33,719 even make it to the Iowa caucus, dropped out right after Thanksgiving. That's 20 00:01:33,920 --> 00:01:36,280 you know, maybe we should start even before that, because I was going 21 00:01:36,359 --> 00:01:40,760 to ask you, Charlie, let's start here just in recent memory. So 22 00:01:40,799 --> 00:01:46,959 the last five or so years, Kamala Harris went from a senator getting immense 23 00:01:47,599 --> 00:01:55,040 support from elite media and sort of the political establishment to being really a laughing 24 00:01:55,079 --> 00:02:00,439 stock, and not just on the right. What has happened to her recently? 25 00:02:00,519 --> 00:02:01,799 And then I want to go back to kind of early comic because I 26 00:02:01,799 --> 00:02:06,239 know you're right about that, but just recently, what has become of Kamala 27 00:02:06,319 --> 00:02:09,719 Harris? How did this happen? Right? Yeah? I think just in 28 00:02:09,800 --> 00:02:14,960 that I think the left is really discouraged by how she's performing as vice president. 29 00:02:15,080 --> 00:02:20,520 I think that we saw that with some of the Charlemagne interactions, and 30 00:02:20,599 --> 00:02:23,879 now that she is sort of the vice president and kind of on lockdown, 31 00:02:24,039 --> 00:02:30,680 she has a difficult time even just with basic communications, and conservatives and conservative 32 00:02:30,719 --> 00:02:36,879 media have really enjoyed the word salads, but even the left it's kind of 33 00:02:37,000 --> 00:02:42,439 face palming at the the multiple clips that are coming out. And I think 34 00:02:42,479 --> 00:02:46,319 that's why the Biden campaign has just kind of buckled down, as they're now 35 00:02:46,479 --> 00:02:51,280 sort of campaigning in earnest and putting her in her safe spaces. Right now, 36 00:02:51,319 --> 00:02:54,919 she's sort of campaigning on abortion, doing the whole women's rights tour, 37 00:02:55,719 --> 00:03:00,039 and at the end of last year she finished up a college. To her 38 00:03:00,080 --> 00:03:05,639 you know what is what is easier for Democrat candidate than to go to colleges 39 00:03:05,680 --> 00:03:07,520 and talk to the youth, I think, and then that's why I an 40 00:03:07,639 --> 00:03:14,039 interviewed. She's kind of repeatedly talking about her love of gen Z and the 41 00:03:14,080 --> 00:03:19,280 young people, and that's really where the Biden campaign wants there. So a 42 00:03:19,319 --> 00:03:22,879 little behind the curtain movie magic here, I said that we were joined by 43 00:03:22,960 --> 00:03:27,159 Christopher Bedford, when in fact we had not yet been joined by Christopher Bedford, 44 00:03:27,400 --> 00:03:30,879 who came in in the middle of Charlie's answer and just whispered gently into 45 00:03:30,879 --> 00:03:36,199 the microphone. What was the question? I am the phantom of the podcast. 46 00:03:36,240 --> 00:03:39,199 I come and go as I please. Yes, yes, but Chris 47 00:03:39,280 --> 00:03:45,439 was secretly working on his wrap track because apparently that's what that's what what is 48 00:03:45,479 --> 00:03:49,560 called for on the internet. Now, Charlie, does she resonate with the 49 00:03:49,560 --> 00:03:53,400 young people? Does she move crabs? I mean they tried to make her 50 00:03:53,439 --> 00:03:59,000 into like a feminist icon, a girl power girl boss when she first came 51 00:03:59,080 --> 00:04:00,879 to see, Not really when she first came to to see, when she 52 00:04:00,879 --> 00:04:03,319 first was vice president, No one really cared about her when she was a 53 00:04:03,360 --> 00:04:06,840 senator. Uh well, I was just saying that the elite media really did 54 00:04:06,879 --> 00:04:10,919 love her. They gave her splash spreads and all the good stuff. Yeah, 55 00:04:10,919 --> 00:04:15,319 they tried to make her quotes from the debate with Pence like I'm still 56 00:04:15,360 --> 00:04:17,240 talking or something. There was some kind of thing like I'm still talking, 57 00:04:18,040 --> 00:04:24,759 and uh I remember there was a quilt down by navy yard, my navy 58 00:04:24,800 --> 00:04:29,360 yard or all these like you know, fifty year old white cat ladies had 59 00:04:29,439 --> 00:04:32,759 knit together to try to show that, hey, we love Kamala and it 60 00:04:32,839 --> 00:04:35,519 was a picture. But you don't really see that anymore because like the culture 61 00:04:35,560 --> 00:04:43,040 personality couldn't really last how awkward she was in public, how how she clearly 62 00:04:43,120 --> 00:04:46,399 wasn't doing the research, or she clearly wasn't doing the work that her life 63 00:04:46,480 --> 00:04:48,439 was kind of a veep episode. It's just so just when she goes to 64 00:04:48,480 --> 00:04:54,160 campuses, is it does she draw the crouch? Yeah? I think that 65 00:04:54,240 --> 00:04:57,720 when she goes to some of these colleges, it's safe. It's her safe 66 00:04:57,720 --> 00:05:00,720 space. There's enough, there's enough college students in the crowd that'll come and 67 00:05:00,759 --> 00:05:05,680 take selfies and appear for the moments. You know. I spoke about this 68 00:05:05,720 --> 00:05:11,959 with Emily earlier. The college campus is really a safe space for Democrat candidates 69 00:05:12,040 --> 00:05:16,839 unless you go to some radical hotbed where they're going to stand up and protest. 70 00:05:16,879 --> 00:05:24,000 The schools she picked aren't necessarily any sort of controversial, any sort of 71 00:05:25,759 --> 00:05:30,199 really intense hotbeds of political activism. So I think that she's pretty safe right 72 00:05:30,240 --> 00:05:35,480 now. And Charlie, can we rewind a bit and take us back. 73 00:05:35,519 --> 00:05:39,879 I mean, there's a lot of rumor. There are a lot of rumors. 74 00:05:39,959 --> 00:05:44,720 There are a lot of confirmed facts, like her prior relationships that are 75 00:05:44,800 --> 00:05:47,759 completely salient and relevant to the rise of Kamala Harris, no matter how uncomfortable 76 00:05:47,800 --> 00:05:51,639 that is. In polite conversation sort of about how she got her foot in 77 00:05:51,720 --> 00:05:56,879 the door in Bay area politics. A lot of people know her backstory because 78 00:05:56,879 --> 00:05:59,600 she likes to talk about her backstory. But can you take us back to, 79 00:05:59,680 --> 00:06:03,519 you know, sort of how Kamala Harris ended up an attorney? How 80 00:06:03,519 --> 00:06:10,720 does she get into just the world of politics period? Right? Kamala has 81 00:06:10,759 --> 00:06:15,199 this line she continuously talks about. She cites, citing her mother to Kamala, 82 00:06:15,360 --> 00:06:18,759 never let anyone else tell your story. You tell them your story. 83 00:06:19,480 --> 00:06:23,800 But that's been very convenient for her thus far. She doesn't even mention her 84 00:06:23,839 --> 00:06:29,399 relationship with Willy Brown in her memoir at all. There for Life, and 85 00:06:29,680 --> 00:06:33,879 certainly in moments sections you'll see mentions of Willy Brown. But it's important, 86 00:06:34,079 --> 00:06:38,600 and you know Democrats will say, well, how dare you bring up Willy 87 00:06:38,639 --> 00:06:42,279 Brown? This was just a this was just a personal relationship. Well it's 88 00:06:42,319 --> 00:06:46,399 much more than that. As I investigated, Willy Brown appointed her to two 89 00:06:46,480 --> 00:06:49,800 state boards while they were dating. They only dated a year. She was 90 00:06:49,839 --> 00:06:56,399 twenty nine, he was sixty. She was a relatively unknown assistant prosecutor in 91 00:06:56,439 --> 00:07:00,480 Almita County. He was running for mayor of San Francisco. It was a 92 00:07:00,519 --> 00:07:05,879 love story unlike any other the love story like quite a few others. So 93 00:07:06,079 --> 00:07:13,639 Willie Brown gets the advantage of having a stable relationship with an adult woman, 94 00:07:14,040 --> 00:07:17,399 where typically he has sort of the playboy persona a long estrange from his wife 95 00:07:17,399 --> 00:07:24,279 Blanche and now just on the on the on the dating scene in the sort 96 00:07:24,319 --> 00:07:28,800 of the social circles of San Francisco, with you know, only one woman 97 00:07:28,839 --> 00:07:32,759 on his arm instead of several like he's used to having. And so yeah, 98 00:07:32,839 --> 00:07:36,839 and at the same time, he appoints her to two state boards and 99 00:07:38,800 --> 00:07:42,319 which pay her hundreds of thousands of dollars in just a couple of years. 100 00:07:42,439 --> 00:07:46,480 And you know, I think it was a total of four hundred thousand dollars 101 00:07:46,519 --> 00:07:49,079 over a couple of years that she got from being appointed to these boards. 102 00:07:49,199 --> 00:07:54,759 You know, you put that in today's money, that's over eight hundred thousand 103 00:07:54,839 --> 00:08:00,000 dollars judge, justin for inflation. So she certainly got and she also got 104 00:08:00,079 --> 00:08:05,120 the keys to BMW during their relationship. So it's definitely this is how So 105 00:08:05,160 --> 00:08:09,199 that's how, that's how he got attractive twenty nine year old girls, I 106 00:08:09,199 --> 00:08:13,399 mean BMW's and he took care of He's a sugar daddy. He definitely took 107 00:08:13,480 --> 00:08:18,879 care of her, and other women in his political orbit have had the same 108 00:08:18,920 --> 00:08:22,319 thing, not all of them, but certainly Klma got special treatment. And 109 00:08:22,399 --> 00:08:26,279 so this has sort of opened the doors to her political future, right, 110 00:08:26,360 --> 00:08:30,519 and once she was introduced to the rich and powerful of San Francisco, the 111 00:08:30,519 --> 00:08:35,000 Democrat Party and the Democratic Party, then she was able to sort of show 112 00:08:35,120 --> 00:08:39,919 up and demand a position on the stage. H Yeah, not bad for 113 00:08:39,960 --> 00:08:43,679 the beginning of your career. That sounds like a lot sounds like a lot 114 00:08:43,679 --> 00:08:46,399 of work to me. I know that i'd be up to it. I 115 00:08:46,399 --> 00:08:50,440 would hope that you wouldn't be up to it. So what's something that really 116 00:08:50,200 --> 00:08:54,639 now you said? Out on this project. She's a pretty widely known public 117 00:08:54,679 --> 00:08:56,960 figure. Of course, there's been a lot of things that have been just 118 00:08:58,000 --> 00:09:01,960 glanced over and passed over by me because they're her allies and it's inconvenient. 119 00:09:03,559 --> 00:09:09,200 What's something that legitimately surprised you that you hadn't even read about on the blogosphere, 120 00:09:09,720 --> 00:09:13,399 or that yeah, you hadn't seen anywhere, or that that didn't really 121 00:09:13,399 --> 00:09:18,960 maybe or maybe that just didn't fit with your your notions going in right, 122 00:09:18,080 --> 00:09:24,480 there's sort of two First, her presidential campaign, I followed I was reported 123 00:09:24,480 --> 00:09:28,360 mostly on Pete Boo to judge during that twenty twenty primary, and so I 124 00:09:28,360 --> 00:09:33,960 didn't follow Kamala Harris as closely. But just going back and researching her campaign, 125 00:09:33,320 --> 00:09:37,679 Wow, all the signs are there, the word salads are there. 126 00:09:39,200 --> 00:09:43,480 Just the complete incompetence on a national stage. You know, she sort of 127 00:09:43,519 --> 00:09:46,320 got more and more frustrated the more time she spent in Iowa, the more 128 00:09:46,320 --> 00:09:50,919 time she spent on the debate stage, ultimately kind of getting depressed at the 129 00:09:52,039 --> 00:09:54,879 end, sort of blaming sexism and racism for why she never took off. 130 00:09:56,639 --> 00:10:01,879 But wow, it's if anybody had been following her campaign and reported on it 131 00:10:01,080 --> 00:10:05,320 accurately, I don't think she would be the vice president today. It was 132 00:10:05,399 --> 00:10:09,960 just really, really bad. She was the first to drop out, if 133 00:10:09,960 --> 00:10:16,799 I recall one of the first she dropped out in November, right after Thanksgiving, 134 00:10:16,080 --> 00:10:20,080 before she even got to Iowa, and spent about forty million dollars of 135 00:10:20,480 --> 00:10:24,960 you know dough If you could launch the messenger with that kind of money. 136 00:10:26,039 --> 00:10:28,360 Well, so, actually, if we just pause on that point, I'm 137 00:10:28,360 --> 00:10:31,360 curious about the second part of your answer, Charlie. But that's super fascinating 138 00:10:31,480 --> 00:10:35,679 because it's a story about the media. If all of those signs were there 139 00:10:37,159 --> 00:10:41,200 and she was still being cast, you know, to political reporters, all 140 00:10:41,240 --> 00:10:46,840 of us included before the implosion of her campaign, as this adroit, deft 141 00:10:46,039 --> 00:10:52,759 politician who was the second coming of Obama. And yet you know, when 142 00:10:52,759 --> 00:10:56,440 you're going back and parsing answers, looking at the speech really closely, I 143 00:10:56,440 --> 00:11:03,799 think that speaks to how powerful the media is at framing different candidates to their 144 00:11:03,840 --> 00:11:09,519 desired ends or who fit the narrative really well. They just have so much 145 00:11:09,559 --> 00:11:13,399 power to shape the way that all of us see any given person. Absolutely 146 00:11:13,480 --> 00:11:18,279 Emily, and this started way back when she was Attorney General of California, 147 00:11:18,679 --> 00:11:22,360 before she even ran for Senate, there were a lot of figures in the 148 00:11:22,399 --> 00:11:26,240 media describing Kamala Harris as the new up and coming, the female Obama. 149 00:11:26,360 --> 00:11:31,519 You know, this is sort of getting started back in twenty ten, and 150 00:11:31,440 --> 00:11:37,879 she was already sort of expanding her national brand to attract media and donor attention, 151 00:11:37,960 --> 00:11:43,399 and it was pretty good at it. I detail a nuggett in the 152 00:11:43,440 --> 00:11:48,039 book of how Jeff Zucker, when he was sort of head of NBC News, 153 00:11:48,759 --> 00:11:52,919 had a breakfast for her and really just gushed endlessly about her, calling 154 00:11:52,960 --> 00:11:58,080 her the future of the Democrat Party. How he never endorses candidates but was 155 00:11:58,240 --> 00:12:03,720 just completely wowed by Kamala Harris. And even in California, Kamala had you 156 00:12:03,799 --> 00:12:09,919 know, you're not necessarily focused on winning over voters in California. You have 157 00:12:09,039 --> 00:12:15,320 to prove to party elites, to the donors, to the celebrities that you 158 00:12:15,399 --> 00:12:18,679 are the one to lead the beat, to represent the party. And once 159 00:12:18,720 --> 00:12:22,120 you once you convince them, then the rest is all but history. You 160 00:12:22,200 --> 00:12:26,879 just kind of get appointed. And if you show up in a demand a 161 00:12:26,919 --> 00:12:28,960 place on the stage, you kind of get that. And certainly when she 162 00:12:30,320 --> 00:12:35,600 kicked off her presidential campaign that there was just glowing media, you know, 163 00:12:35,840 --> 00:12:39,360 referring to her as the next Obama. Even Trump was, you know, 164 00:12:39,399 --> 00:12:41,679 based on what he was listening to in the media, was, you know, 165 00:12:41,799 --> 00:12:46,559 describing Kamala Harris as a serious threat. I don't know how you could 166 00:12:46,559 --> 00:12:48,919 get that. And I used to watch her. I don't know how the 167 00:12:48,039 --> 00:12:52,080 establishment could get that. Not you, Charlie, because I used to watch 168 00:12:52,159 --> 00:12:56,559 her on these panels, and like she gave Macy Herono a run for her 169 00:12:56,600 --> 00:13:01,919 money for how dumb her questions were, didn't she was Barack Obama. I 170 00:13:01,960 --> 00:13:05,559 wasn't in the center for very long. He didn't really do a lot or 171 00:13:05,600 --> 00:13:09,120 say a lot, but he at least he had an impressive air about him. 172 00:13:09,440 --> 00:13:13,320 But why do you think the Obama's never took a shine to her? 173 00:13:15,200 --> 00:13:16,480 I mean, you and I were talking in the green room when I saw 174 00:13:16,519 --> 00:13:24,039 you last week on your book tour about how Michelle Obama recorded her DNC speech 175 00:13:24,159 --> 00:13:28,720 and then Kamala was chosen and they had like a couple of days to re 176 00:13:28,720 --> 00:13:31,200 record it if they wanted to, and she didn't. She was like, 177 00:13:31,240 --> 00:13:37,080 I'm not She decided not to say anything about the first black female major party 178 00:13:37,200 --> 00:13:41,159 candidate. Obama thought she was hot. Remember this, Charlie will tell us 179 00:13:41,159 --> 00:13:46,799 all about this. So yeah, back when Obama was supporting her, he 180 00:13:46,879 --> 00:13:50,360 described her as, you know, the one of the best looking attorney generals 181 00:13:50,360 --> 00:13:56,639 in the country. And yeah, that really kicked off, you know, 182 00:13:56,759 --> 00:14:01,279 back in I guess what would this be in early twenty tens, I guess, 183 00:14:01,720 --> 00:14:07,159 yeah, that kicked off, you know, a firestorm on social media, 184 00:14:07,240 --> 00:14:09,519 right, it was like, how dare you describe a woman based on 185 00:14:09,559 --> 00:14:11,679 your looks? And there were a lot of progressive dudes that were like, 186 00:14:11,759 --> 00:14:16,720 but she actually is hot. It's okay, she's a good looking lady, 187 00:14:18,240 --> 00:14:22,879 and it'll ultimately, you know, the White House. Let it be known 188 00:14:22,720 --> 00:14:26,639 that Obama personally called her and apologized, but he never really addressed it publicly. 189 00:14:28,039 --> 00:14:31,200 Well, Charlie, one of the reasons I was I covered Kamala Harris's 190 00:14:31,200 --> 00:14:33,879 Senate run, not you know, on the ground or anything, but I 191 00:14:33,919 --> 00:14:39,919 paid attention to it closer than the others in twenty eighteen. Maybe it was 192 00:14:39,919 --> 00:14:41,320 even before that, like twenty seventeen, so I was at the Examiner, 193 00:14:41,480 --> 00:14:48,039 and I actually the reason that I thought she was a sleeper candidate is that 194 00:14:48,480 --> 00:14:50,279 I'm sure you saw this. This was an interview with like the LA Times 195 00:14:50,360 --> 00:14:54,000 or the LA Times profiled her around the time she was launching her campaign, 196 00:14:54,559 --> 00:14:58,360 and she was talking about her three AM issues, which she then used in 197 00:14:58,399 --> 00:15:03,200 a very different way I think in the presidential primary campaign and on the campaign 198 00:15:03,200 --> 00:15:07,279 trial since. But she was talking about how you know, when voters go 199 00:15:07,279 --> 00:15:09,960 to sleep at night, they're not thinking about identity politics, and they're not 200 00:15:11,039 --> 00:15:13,720 thinking they're thinking about how they can feed their kids and pay their health care 201 00:15:13,759 --> 00:15:18,200 bills. And from the mouth of somebody who was being feted by the media 202 00:15:18,279 --> 00:15:26,720 as this identity politics hero, as the sort of black female progressive champion of 203 00:15:26,840 --> 00:15:31,320 intersectionality, the embodiment of you know, the intersectional dream. I just thought 204 00:15:31,360 --> 00:15:35,759 that was really interesting at the time. And then she immediately sort of, 205 00:15:35,759 --> 00:15:39,879 you know, was fundraising in the Hamptons and kind of selling out to the 206 00:15:39,960 --> 00:15:43,799 establishment and all that stuff. But what happened to her, Like, was 207 00:15:43,840 --> 00:15:48,759 there an evolution or does that speak to her maybe having good political instincts that 208 00:15:48,840 --> 00:15:52,159 were corrupted or has she just always had, you know, bad political instincts. 209 00:15:54,039 --> 00:15:56,200 Well, I think the three AM line and the three AM ad that 210 00:15:56,240 --> 00:16:00,759 they pushed really hard in the beginning in Iowa was the product of a consultant 211 00:16:00,879 --> 00:16:06,360 driven message. It wasn't necessarily and it was left over from her Senate campaign. 212 00:16:06,480 --> 00:16:08,240 So she really just tried to keep running on this issue and hoping that 213 00:16:08,720 --> 00:16:15,279 Iowa voters would sort of celebrate this idea that everybody wakes up at three am 214 00:16:15,320 --> 00:16:18,639 and with a fear and a worry, and I'm here to take those away 215 00:16:18,639 --> 00:16:21,240 from you. I'm here to help you take care of them. Make sure 216 00:16:21,279 --> 00:16:23,759 there's money in your pocket, make sure your kids are going to be well 217 00:16:23,919 --> 00:16:27,759 educated and everything like that. So I think it's just a lot of leftovers 218 00:16:27,759 --> 00:16:33,320 because the same people that ran her Senate campaign moved to her presidential campaign, 219 00:16:33,399 --> 00:16:37,279 so that it was you had this these same titans of California politics sort of 220 00:16:37,360 --> 00:16:42,000 running the message. So I think ultimately it sort of rang hollow because it 221 00:16:42,120 --> 00:16:47,519 wasn't some big sweeping movement like we saw Pete Budha Judge sail into Ida, 222 00:16:47,679 --> 00:16:52,120 Iowa with a very earnest, very personal message, and he made it very 223 00:16:52,159 --> 00:16:57,200 personal with the voters. Kamlin airis starts dropping these three am speeches. Even 224 00:16:57,799 --> 00:17:03,960 There's a fun clip I've found online of Willie Brown talking to California TV and 225 00:17:03,000 --> 00:17:07,079 he's like, look, politics is personal. You need to have you need 226 00:17:07,119 --> 00:17:11,160 to show people who you are. You can't just be running around talking about 227 00:17:11,200 --> 00:17:15,240 this three am nonsense. He's absolutely right. He hit the nail on the 228 00:17:15,279 --> 00:17:19,359 head. Kama is just not She did not She did not have a like 229 00:17:19,400 --> 00:17:23,319 a hope or hope and change message like Obama did. She did not have 230 00:17:23,440 --> 00:17:30,960 a message of progressive, enlightened freedom politics like Pete Pooda Judge did. Even 231 00:17:30,960 --> 00:17:33,839 Bernie Sanders, you know, has a great. You know who Bernie Sanders 232 00:17:33,960 --> 00:17:37,240 is. He's the progressive, he's the leftist. He's gonna, you know, 233 00:17:38,119 --> 00:17:42,519 swing the party into hard left. But when you came to kaml It, 234 00:17:42,519 --> 00:17:47,799 it was very unclear what motivated her, and it seemed like power. 235 00:17:47,880 --> 00:17:51,759 She was just pursuing power for power's sake. And well, how many senators 236 00:17:51,759 --> 00:17:53,880 have we seen do the same thing? Sale into Iowa with the you know, 237 00:17:55,000 --> 00:17:57,680 with a few viral clips in hand, and just end up slat on 238 00:17:57,720 --> 00:18:03,400 their face because she just don't get what you're trying to sell. So where'd 239 00:18:03,440 --> 00:18:07,480 she go from here? I mean, she's vice president now. The party 240 00:18:07,720 --> 00:18:11,880 seems to kind of regret both their choice for president and vice president. She 241 00:18:11,920 --> 00:18:17,640 doesn't even get along with the president anymore. It feels slighted probably, I 242 00:18:17,680 --> 00:18:22,680 mean she is slighted. She's excluded from things because she's not helpful, and 243 00:18:22,920 --> 00:18:26,880 the party doesn't want her to be the next person. It seems like at 244 00:18:26,960 --> 00:18:30,839 least that's none of the gossip. So what's her next step? And if 245 00:18:30,839 --> 00:18:33,759 her next step is at odds is what the party wants, then how does 246 00:18:33,759 --> 00:18:38,119 the party deal with that? You know, you can't just push aside the 247 00:18:38,160 --> 00:18:45,519 most senior black female when brown women of color is your religion? Yeah, 248 00:18:45,519 --> 00:18:49,799 that's the most important question, Chris, which is why I sort of wrote 249 00:18:49,799 --> 00:18:52,839 the book. She could very well be the forty seventh president of the United 250 00:18:52,880 --> 00:18:57,319 States. If Joe Biden wins. It's very unlikely he'll be able to finish 251 00:18:57,319 --> 00:19:03,440 his term, and that will lead sort of Kamala next in line becoming the 252 00:19:03,440 --> 00:19:08,559 president without ever running a successful national campaign on her own. So that could 253 00:19:08,559 --> 00:19:15,079 be a very real scenario if Biden loses, Kamala has to believe that she 254 00:19:15,240 --> 00:19:18,119 can still run for president even though she's a laughing stock. Look, Joe 255 00:19:18,160 --> 00:19:22,440 Biden was a laughing stock at one point. He nobody ever thought he would 256 00:19:22,519 --> 00:19:26,680 run for president. That's why Obama picked him. But lo and behold, 257 00:19:26,680 --> 00:19:30,559 here he is as the president of the United States. So Kamala has to 258 00:19:30,559 --> 00:19:33,599 be thinking, if Joe Biden can do it, why can't I do it. 259 00:19:33,960 --> 00:19:38,359 What's also interesting is that now that South Carolina is the first in the 260 00:19:38,480 --> 00:19:45,000 nation primary for the Democrat Party, then perhaps Kamala has better luck in that 261 00:19:45,039 --> 00:19:49,279 state than she would in Iowa than she would in New Hampshire. Biden was 262 00:19:49,319 --> 00:19:53,160 super popular in South Carolina. A lot of black voters and Democratic primaries in 263 00:19:53,200 --> 00:19:57,319 South Carolina. Yeah, that's interesting. Although, yeah, no, that 264 00:19:57,400 --> 00:20:00,319 is really interesting, Charlie. We've kept people in suspense for a little bit 265 00:20:00,359 --> 00:20:03,119 because you were going to tell us the second thing that surprised you when you 266 00:20:03,119 --> 00:20:07,480 started writing the book. First, you talked about the media, super interesting. 267 00:20:07,319 --> 00:20:11,400 What else surprised you when you started writing this or when you throughout the 268 00:20:11,400 --> 00:20:15,839 research process of writing this. Oh yeah, just having conversations with people in 269 00:20:15,960 --> 00:20:21,720 DC you got and I'm sure you guys have had these conversations as well. 270 00:20:22,000 --> 00:20:26,559 Just how few Democrats even like her, let alone feel like defending her. 271 00:20:26,039 --> 00:20:30,599 I don't. That's why there's kind of this frostiness. But in public, 272 00:20:30,839 --> 00:20:36,240 no one's really out there defending her or hailing her as good and you know, 273 00:20:37,000 --> 00:20:40,559 really coming out strong for Kamala. It's just kind of a silence, 274 00:20:40,640 --> 00:20:44,039 and that's where the party's at. They don't feel like defending her, but 275 00:20:44,079 --> 00:20:47,880 they can't publicly criticize her because if they do, they'll be sort of cast 276 00:20:47,880 --> 00:20:52,000 aside as a sexist or a racist. And we kind of saw a little 277 00:20:52,000 --> 00:20:56,319 bit of that in James O'Keefe video that he published online yesterday. Somebody just 278 00:20:56,400 --> 00:21:02,079 openly to you know, as in Kamala and really you know, pointing out 279 00:21:02,079 --> 00:21:06,480 that Biden was on his way out. And I think the party is terrified 280 00:21:06,519 --> 00:21:10,319 by the notion that Joe Biden doesn't make it to election day. If that 281 00:21:10,559 --> 00:21:14,799 happens, then I think there will be a lot of Democrats who will loudly 282 00:21:15,119 --> 00:21:18,880 who will not let Kamala be heir apparent. They will have someone else in 283 00:21:18,880 --> 00:21:22,799 mind, and they will have donors backing them up, lining up to push 284 00:21:22,839 --> 00:21:26,599 her aside and run someone else. One super quick follow up to that, 285 00:21:26,720 --> 00:21:30,960 I've heard rumors that she's what people say, she's really bad to work for, 286 00:21:30,119 --> 00:21:33,119 and I think there's like legistorm data that shows she did have pretty high 287 00:21:33,160 --> 00:21:37,960 turnover in her Senate office, And that can mean different things. It's usually 288 00:21:37,000 --> 00:21:41,240 taken to mean that she was unpleasant to work for, or that get any 289 00:21:41,240 --> 00:21:45,039 given member was unpleasant to work for. Did you hear any of that? 290 00:21:45,079 --> 00:21:51,480 People just did not enjoy their time in her office or her campaign. Yeah, 291 00:21:51,559 --> 00:21:55,279 we had a lot of good reporting to work with and contacting all these 292 00:21:55,279 --> 00:21:59,279 people. They've had no interest in going on the record to be like, 293 00:21:59,319 --> 00:22:04,440 you know, actually it was great working with her, even the one person 294 00:22:04,480 --> 00:22:08,519 I was able to contact in her office about the book, and I just 295 00:22:08,559 --> 00:22:14,559 sent a few mild questions after we had a phone conversation, but ultimately she 296 00:22:14,720 --> 00:22:21,079 left before I could even get the book finished. So definitely a heavily rotating 297 00:22:21,079 --> 00:22:23,039 staff. And we're not just talking low level, like high level people, 298 00:22:23,599 --> 00:22:29,319 high level Democrats who worked with Obama, who had been in the Democrat Party 299 00:22:29,559 --> 00:22:34,440 for a long time. And so it is very true that this reputation exists. 300 00:22:34,559 --> 00:22:38,839 And she is not a fun person to work for, not inspirational in 301 00:22:38,880 --> 00:22:42,559 any way, and at this point doesn't have much of a political future, 302 00:22:42,559 --> 00:22:45,799 which is why so many people are just bailing. I was waiting for them 303 00:22:45,799 --> 00:22:48,799 to maybe nominate her to Supreme Court or something. Just get her out of 304 00:22:48,839 --> 00:22:52,279 there and be like, oh, Supreme Court, yay, and then she's 305 00:22:52,279 --> 00:22:59,079 out of secession. It's not really their fault if it fails. Imagine her 306 00:22:59,119 --> 00:23:04,519 in the Supreme Court. Well, we kind of have the identity politics. 307 00:23:06,079 --> 00:23:11,519 Sophist is on the Supreme Court, Charlie. Can you tell us about Doug 308 00:23:11,640 --> 00:23:15,200 M Hoff Because they're all kinds of business interests that are tangled up, and 309 00:23:15,200 --> 00:23:19,880 he started making deals. He started making deals before inauguration day, long before 310 00:23:19,880 --> 00:23:25,519 Inauguration day with he's kind of kind of like Vip Actually, you know, 311 00:23:25,559 --> 00:23:29,240 I never watched it. Oh that's not surprising, Charlie. What did you 312 00:23:29,240 --> 00:23:33,359 find about Doug. Yeah, Doug Amoff is really taken, really done well 313 00:23:33,400 --> 00:23:37,839 in Washington. His you know, he resigned from his law firm. But 314 00:23:37,160 --> 00:23:41,960 I think it's Piper, but that Fern is doing a lot of business, 315 00:23:41,160 --> 00:23:45,839 a lot more business in DC than ever before. He's sort of seen as 316 00:23:45,880 --> 00:23:49,279 affable. People like him. He's he seems to enjoy his time on the 317 00:23:49,359 --> 00:23:55,039 national stage. A little mift that, you know, the Biden team has 318 00:23:55,079 --> 00:23:57,920 kind of left Kamala, you know, dangling. But on the whole, 319 00:23:57,960 --> 00:24:02,400 he has a really good endly relationship with Jill Biden. We've seen that, 320 00:24:02,480 --> 00:24:06,960 you know, both as spouses of you know, President and Vice President. 321 00:24:07,000 --> 00:24:11,000 He's developed a good relationship with Jill, started during the campaign, continued that 322 00:24:11,119 --> 00:24:15,440 on. But you don't really see Jill and Kamala getting along. They don't 323 00:24:15,440 --> 00:24:18,440 really have a sisterhood. You know, Kamala wants to be treated as the 324 00:24:18,480 --> 00:24:22,079 next president of the United States. Jill's probably not ready to do that. 325 00:24:22,799 --> 00:24:27,440 And certainly Kamala and Joe just have a pretty basic, transactual relationship. There 326 00:24:27,480 --> 00:24:32,599 was a huge gap in there in their lunch schedule. You know, Biden 327 00:24:32,640 --> 00:24:36,119 famously promised to have lunch with her every week, but for a while there 328 00:24:36,160 --> 00:24:38,880 there were like weeks on end with when the two of them didn't meet up 329 00:24:38,880 --> 00:24:41,920 for lunch and weren't spending much time together. I mean, it's a largely 330 00:24:41,960 --> 00:24:49,240 unheard of arrangement. I think Cheney was the one who institutionalized that and people, 331 00:24:49,279 --> 00:24:56,680 but there's no comparison between Dick Cheney and Kamala Harris's intellects and political abilities 332 00:24:56,680 --> 00:25:03,680 and politics. How bad is the relationship between her and the president? Is 333 00:25:03,720 --> 00:25:07,480 it just what's reported like she feels miffed and annoyed or has it? Has 334 00:25:07,480 --> 00:25:11,920 it gotten ugly behind the scenes? Yeah, I mean Biden really wanted a 335 00:25:11,960 --> 00:25:15,079 buddy vice president. You know, he always felt that he kind of wanted 336 00:25:15,079 --> 00:25:19,559 a buddy, and Kamala just had no interest in doing that. And he 337 00:25:19,640 --> 00:25:23,400 also wanted someone who is very loyal, and Kamala hasn't been interested in doing 338 00:25:23,400 --> 00:25:27,839 that. With famously, her border assignment, you know, she insisted that 339 00:25:27,880 --> 00:25:32,759 she was only handling root causes and refused to take any other aspect of the 340 00:25:32,799 --> 00:25:37,240 border. She even corrected the President in you know, in front of other 341 00:25:37,279 --> 00:25:41,279 people, in front of other lawmakers during a meeting that they had in Congress. 342 00:25:41,880 --> 00:25:48,160 And she also refused to do like a remember when the baby formula crisis 343 00:25:48,240 --> 00:25:52,400 was happening, they would bring it these lights from overseas to sort of look 344 00:25:52,440 --> 00:25:56,440 at all the baby formula. We have palettes and pallets of baby formula, 345 00:25:56,680 --> 00:25:59,559 and they would land in Dulles and have an official go out to welcome it. 346 00:26:00,039 --> 00:26:03,960 Well. Comala Harris refused to do one of those, basically saying she 347 00:26:03,000 --> 00:26:07,359 wasn't interested, and she ultimatelyly did one later. But you know, it 348 00:26:07,400 --> 00:26:11,359 was up to Jill Biden to sort of welcome the first shipment, and so 349 00:26:11,440 --> 00:26:14,519 she you know, Biden doesn't see her as loyal, He sees her as 350 00:26:14,559 --> 00:26:18,559 sort of work in progress. And but you know he's not about to try 351 00:26:18,599 --> 00:26:23,480 to replace her because he remembers how that feels. When reports emerged of the 352 00:26:23,519 --> 00:26:29,599 Obama team, you know, thinking of replacing him with Hillary Clinton right before 353 00:26:29,599 --> 00:26:33,920 they re elect. He's made made sure that nothing like that has ever sort 354 00:26:33,920 --> 00:26:37,599 of emerged into the public eye. At this point, I wanted to ask, 355 00:26:37,680 --> 00:26:42,279 like a real because you have so much nuance on this issue. Obviously 356 00:26:42,319 --> 00:26:45,799 you devoted full book length to it, and I wanted to do a kind 357 00:26:45,839 --> 00:26:53,279 of counterintuitive just exercise, Charlie, where if you were to present the best 358 00:26:53,599 --> 00:26:59,359 possible argument for Kamala Harris not being as bad, you know, like the 359 00:26:59,400 --> 00:27:02,920 total option, sort of like a contrarian take she's if you were to make 360 00:27:02,920 --> 00:27:06,880 the argument that she's not as bad as you know, some people make her 361 00:27:06,880 --> 00:27:11,559 out to be that because sometimes what happens is a stereotype starts to snowball, 362 00:27:11,720 --> 00:27:15,519 or a caricature starts to snowball. And I think it happened a little bit 363 00:27:15,559 --> 00:27:18,759 with DeSantis, actually that he was just so unpersonable and blah blah blah. 364 00:27:18,799 --> 00:27:22,440 It's like he's not that bad. You know, people were comparing him to 365 00:27:22,519 --> 00:27:25,880 Nixon. It's like, well, Nixon wasn't that bad either in terms of 366 00:27:25,920 --> 00:27:30,119 their personability. But with Kamala Harris, is there a contrarian take to the 367 00:27:30,400 --> 00:27:37,359 you know, new meme caricature of her as a sort of embodiment of an 368 00:27:37,480 --> 00:27:44,519 actual deep cartoon political figure. Yeah, that's so great, family, because 369 00:27:45,319 --> 00:27:48,680 people are having these kind of conversations. It's really become kind of a parlor 370 00:27:48,680 --> 00:27:52,200 game in Washington for especially among Democrats, it's like, how do you fix 371 00:27:52,279 --> 00:27:55,640 Kamala Harris. I think a lot of it, you know, a lot 372 00:27:55,720 --> 00:27:59,799 of it is she's nervous on the national stage, unwilling, and we saw 373 00:27:59,799 --> 00:28:03,279 this throughout her political creation. Doesn't really take any risks. She's always very 374 00:28:03,279 --> 00:28:07,720 cautious about her political brand. So and now that she has you know, 375 00:28:07,759 --> 00:28:11,799 she's not running on her message. It's the message given to her. And 376 00:28:11,839 --> 00:28:15,359 that's why they have her so scripted. Now if you've seen the the interviews 377 00:28:15,359 --> 00:28:19,920 on the View, the interview with Katie Kuric, the it's it's all very 378 00:28:21,039 --> 00:28:25,319 very scripted now that she very rarely gets the opportunity to sort of riff and 379 00:28:25,400 --> 00:28:29,920 talk because it always turns into a word salad. She tries to just very 380 00:28:29,960 --> 00:28:33,880 good. Yeah, she tries to define terms and then build us a speech 381 00:28:33,920 --> 00:28:37,680 around that term. She so many of her speeches, you know, we 382 00:28:37,720 --> 00:28:41,920 call them word salads. But she's just talking and then just keeps piling on 383 00:28:42,000 --> 00:28:47,000 dependent clauses and it's like the sentences never end. They just keep spinning and 384 00:28:47,039 --> 00:28:51,039 spinning and spinning. It reminds me of the space yeah, yeah, the 385 00:28:51,119 --> 00:28:56,279 space artificial intelligence. It's somebody described it once like this years ago, and 386 00:28:56,279 --> 00:29:00,559 it's sucking my brain as like a fifth grader who didn't read the book but 387 00:29:00,599 --> 00:29:03,240 has to present in front of the class, and just that seems to be 388 00:29:03,279 --> 00:29:06,599 like, it's so clear. It must be frustrating to be your set that 389 00:29:06,640 --> 00:29:12,759 she's not doing the work. Do you have a a favorite wine or speech 390 00:29:14,000 --> 00:29:17,920 or a little bit of wisdom? Oh? Yeah, the words salads, 391 00:29:18,039 --> 00:29:22,400 you know, the significance of the passage of time. There, you know, 392 00:29:22,480 --> 00:29:26,480 you got to get to where you're going because that's where you got to 393 00:29:26,519 --> 00:29:30,559 go. That's a really good one. The opposite, I think my favorite, 394 00:29:32,039 --> 00:29:34,400 and not many people remember it because it was over the Fourth of July 395 00:29:34,519 --> 00:29:41,279 holiday, but she started They asked her. She went to an essence Fest, 396 00:29:41,359 --> 00:29:48,000 which is an event for black people to gather around and celebrate black culture. 397 00:29:48,160 --> 00:29:52,799 And she's at this sort of roundtable meeting and the moderator is like, 398 00:29:52,839 --> 00:29:56,839 what does black culture mean to you? Or what does that? It was 399 00:29:56,960 --> 00:30:00,720 just like, what does the word culture mean to you? And she just 400 00:30:00,920 --> 00:30:07,960 launched the culture is a point in the moment of time and is also important, 401 00:30:07,240 --> 00:30:11,440 and then she starts laughing, and she says, and as we know, 402 00:30:11,799 --> 00:30:17,000 justice comes in the morning. Was like Ampletely like, how do you 403 00:30:17,079 --> 00:30:22,400 not have an answer for what culture is if you're attending a culture fest and 404 00:30:22,440 --> 00:30:26,799 it's just baffling. Maybe your staff had something or maybe she didn't. It 405 00:30:26,839 --> 00:30:30,319 was, what does justice comes in the morning mean? I think it's a 406 00:30:30,359 --> 00:30:33,759 threat. Yeah, it was like you get hanged at dawn kind of thing. 407 00:30:33,240 --> 00:30:37,480 I think it's a quote from a civil rights leader, justice comes in 408 00:30:37,519 --> 00:30:41,160 the morning. And that's she just kind of riffed on that. She just 409 00:30:41,440 --> 00:30:45,559 freedom popped into her head. Freedom is one of my favorites, like her 410 00:30:45,599 --> 00:30:48,920 complete and total make believe stories about like celebrating with her Gwanza with her immigrant 411 00:30:48,920 --> 00:30:53,279 parents were it's smoking the snoop dog. She was like, was that when 412 00:30:53,359 --> 00:31:00,920 Charlie she told Tupac and called Tupac right? She she was talking with Charlia 413 00:31:00,920 --> 00:31:03,680 Maine about how, of course she smokes weed because I'm my family's Jamaican. 414 00:31:04,359 --> 00:31:08,039 That really angered her father, who wrote this really essay, you know, 415 00:31:08,160 --> 00:31:14,119 a category wish to disassociate me and my family from those comments. He was 416 00:31:14,200 --> 00:31:18,519 just horrified that she would with the Jamaican experience and in that light. I 417 00:31:18,559 --> 00:31:21,960 think a lot of people also were annoyed because she'd put them in prison for 418 00:31:21,960 --> 00:31:26,000 smoking weed. I don't know if you've ever seen that Giuliani clip from the 419 00:31:26,039 --> 00:31:30,960 campaign, but he he's speaking about Kamma and he's like marijuana smokers and then 420 00:31:30,960 --> 00:31:36,279 he imitates smoking and blunt He's like marijuana smokers were just she was just throwing 421 00:31:36,319 --> 00:31:41,519 them in jail. Oh Man, Rudy, what a hero. So the 422 00:31:41,519 --> 00:31:45,480 book again is called Amateur Hour. Kamala Harris in the White House. What 423 00:31:45,599 --> 00:31:51,359 a topic, such a needed area of reporting. So Charlie, thank you 424 00:31:51,400 --> 00:31:53,799 for your public service. You've that guys, thanks for having me. I 425 00:31:53,839 --> 00:31:56,599 love talking about the book in long form. It's been a lot, real 426 00:31:56,640 --> 00:32:00,519 pleasure. Oh it's so much fun. Again, go follow at Charlie Spearing, 427 00:32:00,559 --> 00:32:04,519 Get the book Amateur Hour. Charlie is a political reporter. He's a 428 00:32:04,519 --> 00:32:07,559 great person to follow and to read his work, So make sure to do 429 00:32:07,640 --> 00:32:10,039 that. You've been listening to another edition of the Federalist Radio Hour. I'm 430 00:32:10,039 --> 00:32:14,839 Emily Dashinski, joined today by Chris Bedford, executive editor over at the Common 431 00:32:14,880 --> 00:32:17,400 Sense Society. We'll be back soon with more. Until then, be lovers 432 00:32:17,440 --> 00:32:37,440 of freedom and anxious for the fray