WEBVTT

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Hello, and welcome to the show. I'm Martin wilishire host and I hope

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you're happy and healthy and safe,
and we have a great show for you

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this evening. And the first segment
we have, and I'm really excited to

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say this, we have Alejandro Rojas
coming out. He's checking in for just

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a little bit and after that we're
going to play a trailer and introduced our

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next guest, which is Philip Mantel, and he'll be discussing the new series

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that he's in the name of that
is called Alien Topsy the Search for Answers

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and a little spoiler here he knows
what the answers are in that one,

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but it's a It should be really
interesting and how he came about, all

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of the information and all the hurdles
he had to go through. It should

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be a really great series. And
our second segment, or I should say

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the last two segments, we have
Sarah Scoalis and she is to discuss her

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new book. They are already here
UFO Culture and why we see Saucers and

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I really do expect that to be
a very interesting conversation, So looking forward

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to that. Check out this week's
blog. And that's by Charles Lear and

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the name of that it's called Borderland
Science and UFOs and that's over at podcast

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ufo dot com. And while you're
there, anyone can support the show,

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and I do thank everyone that does. Couldn't do it without you, thank

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you very much. But we are
on Patreon and that link is over there

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on the new bar. Lastly,
I am I'm a person that likes to

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work all the time and I'm not
working. I'm like you or most of

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you out there should say, some
people really are still working, but I'm

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not. So to keep myself from
going stir crazy, I'm a former galleried

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artist, so I decided to paint
again. And here, if you're on

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YouTube, you can see this is
my latest, one of my latest creations,

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and it's called Loan Witness. And
the next one that I am doing

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is called mass Sighting. And let
me pull that up in just a second.

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Here, let's see and that is
right here. And so that one

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is Matroshka dolls. Over in Russia, everyone has these little nesting dolls,

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and so I've always kind of been
baffled by that. And what if a

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UFO went over outside a window and
the only witness to it was those silly

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metroshcus. Anyway, my art website
is Martin Willis art dot com. Go

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check it out, you peruse it, and hopefully you'll see some interesting things

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over there. And you know what, that is really enough from me tonight

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and my good friend Alejandro. I'm
so glad to see you back. Yes,

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hello, good buddy. Hey there, So you are doing good these

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days, you're isolating like us all, but it's really good to have you

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here. And we don't have that
long. So let's get right into what

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we can talk about. Okay,
we'll get into a couple of things.

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You can say, I got my
hat on because I've got the COVID here

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because i've been you know, haven't
got the cut in a couple of months.

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So it's getting to kind of yeah, strigling crazy. But yeah,

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So a couple of things I wanted
to come on and talk about. First,

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the SEU, the Society for the
Study of New AP or the Scientific

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Coalition for the Study of for UAP
studies. I know it is a tricky

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one. It's a study. It
is a mouthful, that's a I've never

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screwed it up that badly though,
And of course I do it live here

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for your audience. But yeah,
anyway, a great organization of science minded

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people that are looking into this topic, and their conference was canceled, just

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like so many have been. They
were going to have one this summer.

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The last one was great of course, with Alesando, Kevin Canuth, some

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other great speakers. They're displaying some
of the science around you know, this

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topic. So what they've decided to
do, and you and I are helping

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them do this, is to have
speakers live do a live stream where people

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can ask questions, they can kind
of do a short synopsis of a topic.

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So we're gonna have they're going to
be about an hour long. First

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thirty minutes it's going to be them
doing their lecture or presentation. The last

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half will be Q and A from
the audience that are live chatting there,

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just like they're doing here right now. So that'll be fun. You and

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I will be mostly in the background
making sure everything's working and making it all

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happen. This first one is going
to be Robert Powell, and this is

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going to be exciting. It's going
to be Wednesday, which I guess is

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tomorrow from when don't know. It's
a week it's May six a week Yeah,

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no, oh is it it is
tomorrow? Oh my god, you

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better get ready. But oh man, yeah, okay, yeah. So

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it's tomorrow six pm on East coast, So that makes it like what two

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pm my time with the time zones
here in the Pacific. Yeah, and

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uh and so that's what time it's
going to be. It's going to be

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on the SEU YouTube page. Martin's
going to have a link below, so

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you guys can check that out to
definitely be there. The Ubatuba materials anomalous

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materials that were found. Some people
believe it's part of the UFO. We'll

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see what Robert says. He's done
his own research on it. Yeah.

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Um. Other Wise, I did
want to comment real quick if I got

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a minute, oh four more minutes
or so. Sure. Nice. So

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here's what I wanted to say.
I think it's important to remember, of

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course, everybody's aware of these the
DoD has come out to say that these

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navy videos are real and that they've
just authorized the release of them. I

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think perspective is really important with all
of this. And the perspective is the

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New York Times verified those videos veracity
when they wrote their article back in twenty

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seventeen. So although it's great that
they came into the DoD has kind of

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come clean on this. You know, they're saying that they just really authorized

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them, you know, the other
day to be released. Not really.

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That is highly highly debatable, as
sleights like Kane about it, and she

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said she won't do an interview,
But they stand by their reporting, and

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their reporting has stand the test of
time. Those videos were verified by The

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New York Times. We had the
people directly involved with capturing those jet fighter

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videos, including some of the jet
fighter pilots involved that we're testifying back then,

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Kevin Day, the radar expert.
We have all these people to verify

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those videos are real, so we
know they're real. So what we've seen

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with the Navy and the DoD is
their response to the release of these videos,

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and the DoD has not been so
good. The Navy has been great.

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They're like, hey, we take
you AFO seriously, this is a

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big deal to us. We verify
those videos are real. The DoD has

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been denying everything and they've had to
change their story. And here again they

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originally said the d D had nothing
to do with those videos. Those videos

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weren't real. Now they're having to
go back and say they are real with

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that little dab at. Elesando still
the guy who ran that a tip program

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saying that they weren't unauthorized before.
However, Elesando has provided the DD nineteen

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ten or actually George Knapp was able
to leak that and that was verified as

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real. Also, we have email
correspondence between Elsando and the Navy where the

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Navy's like, okay, yeah,
fine here they stamped that form cleared for

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public consumption or a very similar term, and so those are out. So

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I think that's an important perspective,
is that we see how this is all

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rolling out, and it's been kind
of good because it keeps the story going,

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getting in the public and of course
right now where everybody's kind of trapped

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and watching the news, this story's
blown up into something big and so many

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more people are interested in what's going
on. So that's true. Let's kind

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of keep that in mind. Yeah, and another thing, you know,

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I mean along those same lines,
it's like I've been contacted by people that

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know I do this show but have
no interest in UFOs, and it's like

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it's kind of filling in the gaps
where that twenty seventeen story kind of missed

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a certain segment of people, and
it's catching some more of those people that

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never saw the first one. Yeah, people need things in chunks. And

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the NYQ story was really rich with
facts and details and everything. This is

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very simple. This is here's some
video. They're real have at it.

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And I think those simple messages are
easily for the public to consume, and

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they have more lengths, right right, Well, hey, thank you Alejandro,

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and we'll see you tomorrow. And
yes, ye see you tomorrow,

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see you tomorrow, and everyone,
as Alejandro said, just go ahead and

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check out and the links and the
show notes and that live stream will be

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there for tomorrow's show on the SEO. Thanks again, Alejandro, my pleasure.

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Thank you, all right, talk
to you soon. Talk. This

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is the Army airfield in Roswell,
New Mexico, but in the summer of

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nineteen forty seven, something definitely crashed
just outside of town. Years later,

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it remains of missing dog being studying
the alien autopsy film for fourteen years.

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If this was, you know,
a crush based vehicle from wherever that it

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is the most momentous, if I, in human history. It's like having

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a jucsaw puzzle with bits missing.
It's the case that will not die.

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It is shrouded in mystery. The
cover up began right from day one.

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It became a personal matter for me. A letter cross my desk that would

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change things forever. Here was now
the opportunity I've been looking for for fourteen

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years. The game was a foot. The flying head and bound and the

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United States Air Force have changed their
explanation at least three or four times.

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Perhaps in the desert of Roswell,
New Mexico, in nineteen forty seven,

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we had first contact with beings not
of this Earth. Information still comes to

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light. An eleven page document was
dumped online. Hold the alien autopsy memo.

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What we're doing is we're placing it
into the public domain. The same

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period is please invest the game.
He owes it to Mundine to tell his

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story. The Amnion autopsy film is
a hoax. That's not the end of

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the story. All right, So
Philip, what an amazing trailer that is.

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That's pretty exciting. Can't wait to
watch the series. Yeah, thank

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you, Marching, You know it's
I think the trailer does its job,

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and hopefully the series will do exactly
that as well. Yeah, and right,

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and you know during the show,
I mean during the trailer itself,

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you say, um, you know, so it's a hoax and that is

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the that to me, that's one
of the most interesting parts of this because

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it was so convincing, just a
quick, um, you know, story

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about my own self during that time. I remember walking through my living room

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seeing the alien autopsy on the news
and looking at it and just going,

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oh, my goodness, and this
is this is real. This is really

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you know, they're really here.
Wow. And then I went outside and

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worked on the house so the world
didn't crash like so many people. Uh

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you know, I mean I thought
about it for a long time and just

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thought, wow, you know,
this is there's really something to this.

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And you know how many I mean
that must have had like an everlasting effect

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on a lot of the world because
that went everywhere. Yeah, I did

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watch it. I mean, you
know, it begun twenty five years ago,

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and despite all my work, they're
still arguing about it now. That

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are still people believe it's it's it's
the genuine article, right, And actually

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you and I had the conversation yesterday. There's still some people in the UFO

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community that are talking about it as
if it's real now, and we'll get

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into this a little bit more,
but I think there was some type of

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resurgence maybe last year sometime where people
were talking about it again, what was

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all that about? Yeah? Last
last year there was two email threads that

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were dumped online, one of which
was from two thousand, two thousand and

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one, and it was addressed to
Bigelow. Bob Bigelow, the US billionaire.

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Now, at that time he had
his own official study group, which

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was called NIDS National Institute for Discovery
Sciences. Number of people he employed there

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was doctor Halpotsof, doctor Colm Keller, doctor Eric Green sorry Eric Davis,

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and of course the main one was
doctor Christopher Green. He's also known as

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Kick Green. Now Kick Green formerly
worked for the CIAA. He is a

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medical doctor, a PhD. And
in this eleven page email thread, basically

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they are clarifying statements he's made previously. Those statements were pretty much all about

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the alien autopsy film. Now,
in one statement, he says, back

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in nineteen eighty seven, so KAT
eight, he had an official briefing at

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the Pentagon where he was shown a
film that was exactly the same as the

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alien Autopsy film we all know and
love, you know. And he then

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went home to give his own professional
medical opinion about the alien Autopsy film and

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what we see or don't see on
it. And he even mentions right near

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the end of having some dealings with
the gentleman who mooted it, Raised Santilly

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and some of his staff, and
he basically said they weren't very nice and

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they weren't too bright either, you
know. So that's what the resurgence of

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interest was. Even Ray Santilli came
out of hiding. I did a couple

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of interviews saying I knew the big
documents somewhere that would prove my film Israel.

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And of course they didn't prove that. They are one man although he

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is a you know, a gentleman
and a scholar and an educated man,

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they are just one man's opinion.
And even I going to mention in this

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email thread, I remember being contracted
by coom callerher back at that time,

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and all I did was actors like
of Liaison, put him in touch with

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Ray Samtilly and leave him to get
on with it. Martin, Now,

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how did this originally say come across
your desk, or did you run into

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someone that started talking about this how
all that happened? No, well,

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I mean the film came out in
nineteen ninety five, but the story really

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starts in nineteen ninety. At that
point, one of the jobs I did

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was press officer for the British UFO
Research Association, and a letter cross my

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desk from a company called the Milling
Group next in London, signed by Race

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Antilly. But they were asking if
we could help, you know, with

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a general UFO documentary. I wrote
back, you know, this is the

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days before email and the Internet,
and sent them some information and then we

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had some conversations myself and Race Sentilly. It was clearly didn't know much about

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the UFO subject, and then out
of the blue he said, well,

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Philip, you know I actually have
film of the UFO crash at Roswell,

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and you know the creature has been
dissected autopsied. So my immediate reaction is

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will show me still the argument when
or the discussion when? Yes, I

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can no account. So I eventually
met Race Sundi in London. He told

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me this story of being in the
States looking for old music clips of the

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rock and roll stars before they were
famous, you know, Elvis and and

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so on, because his business was
music. And he said he bought a

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piece of Elvis film from an old
boy. He was out of copyright,

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so he just paid cash and everything
was okay, he says. And this

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old boy said, well, you
know, before I was a freelance camera

212
00:17:26.279 --> 00:17:29.960
man, I was in the military. And in nineteen forty seven I was

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taken to Roswell and I filmed the
UFO crash and you know, the dead

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aliens. Are you interested? So
Santilis and I went to his home.

215
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He got these these canasters of film
out, put them on a projector,

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showed me them on the wall.
I looked around the house. I could

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00:17:45.240 --> 00:17:49.039
see his photographs have been uniform and
things like that. I phone Kodak because

218
00:17:49.039 --> 00:17:52.279
there's an edgecode on the film and
they said, yeah, that's nineteen forty

219
00:17:52.279 --> 00:17:56.480
seven. And he said, I
agreed to buy it cash. No questions

220
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asked, you know, no names
involved. So I came. I just

221
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said, well, that's a great
story, ray, but show me yes

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I can No, I can't.
So in the end I said I'll forget

223
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it, you know. So we
jumped forward to nineteen ninety five and I

224
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was sent a VHS cassette which was
the movie Roswell. Starting Carl mcclack learned

225
00:18:19.000 --> 00:18:23.519
it was released, he I believed
by Sony Music Sony, and I thought,

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00:18:23.519 --> 00:18:27.440
I wonder if that Santilly chapstill claims
to have that Roswell footage. So

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00:18:29.240 --> 00:18:32.319
took out his business card, which
had kept phoned him. In said yeah,

228
00:18:32.359 --> 00:18:34.079
of course I do, Phillip,
but you don't believe me. That's

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00:18:34.079 --> 00:18:38.240
well, I can't believe until you
show me. Okay, make an appointment

230
00:18:38.279 --> 00:18:41.440
with my secretary and come on down. I'll live two hundred miles north of

231
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London. So I did that.
My wife and I went down and Hey

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Presto in his office. He started
to show us the film, and over

233
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the coming weeks and months, showed
us other film as well. So I

234
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asked Ray what his intentions were to
do with it Martin then he said,

235
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well, I'm going to put it
on home video. I'm gonna make my

236
00:19:02.599 --> 00:19:06.599
own little documentary and you'll be able
to buy it in your local store or

237
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you can, you know, buy
a copy direct from me. So I

238
00:19:11.000 --> 00:19:15.240
asked him because one of the other
things I did I was beautiful as conference

239
00:19:15.319 --> 00:19:19.839
organizer. Well, already at the
conference organized for August of that year.

240
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This was now around about April time, and I said, we show it

241
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at our conference, and he said, okay, well we shook hands.

242
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He said, will you help me
with my documentary? Of course, Now,

243
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I thought, Martin, you know, we need to get this out

244
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into the public domain. You know, I was confident that if we got

245
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it out into the public domain,
somebody might come forward and say, yeah,

246
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that's that's real. That's my grandfather
he told me about this story.

247
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Or no, that's me, it's
a fake. I'm one of the actors.

248
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And it was filmed in such and
such studio, and in the meantime,

249
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you know, the story slipped out
into the public domain via the media,

250
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and that's when the various television companies
became involved. And of course,

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eventually they actually did turn up at
our conference and show it for the first

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time in public, took you know, questions from the audience, and the

253
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following day it was shown on television
around the world. In the United States,

254
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it was alien Autopsy Fact or fiction
on Fox. So popular was it,

255
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Martin, they ordered the producer to
immediately make two more extended editions of

256
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it. You know, and you
know, we went to China, it

257
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went to Rossia, you know,
the Arab continent. I mean, it

258
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went everywhere, and it just you
know, took off. It was almost

259
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like a life form of its own, Martin. It just world. And

260
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so when when did things start falling
apart? When did you start seeing the

261
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cracks in this, in this whole
thing and realized there was something fishy with

262
00:21:02.799 --> 00:21:04.559
it? Well, like I said, it became quite personal. I was

263
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I was accused of being raised until
his accomplice, being paid tens of thousands

264
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of pounds by him. And but
what in reality what I was doing,

265
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Martin, I was being I was
supporting rate of his face and in public,

266
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but behind closed doors or trying to
get to the truth. And it

267
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was a special effects company in the
US that give us the first indications.

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They were called the really Dangerous Company. They looked at the film frame by

269
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frame, you know, and then
they set out a list of things for

270
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you to look for and at what
time to look at it. You know.

271
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So when I'm where and you saw
these little things, didn't prove it

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was a hope sort of fake Martin, What it did it gave you the

273
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indication that there's something not right here, you know. So I went on

274
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from that and like I said,
that our five different types of five different

275
00:22:00.359 --> 00:22:03.359
films involved here. We have one
which is called the tent footage, which

276
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is shot in a dark room with
a couple of guys behind it. There

277
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are two different autopsy films, one
of which has been released on television.

278
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Then we have the debris film,
which a girl has been shown on TV.

279
00:22:18.799 --> 00:22:22.240
And then we even have an alleged
interview with this mysterious cameraman. So

280
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there are five different films, so
you had to look at them all separately

281
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and trying because they all tell a
story in their own right Martin. So

282
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as soon as we've got some information
on one and then moved on to the

283
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next one and the next, but
we didn't know favidence to show that there's

284
00:22:41.079 --> 00:22:48.480
definitely wasn't something right here. But
we didn't have that final breakthrough to prove

285
00:22:48.559 --> 00:22:55.640
it. I knew early on that
right sound till he didn't make this film.

286
00:22:55.680 --> 00:22:59.759
It just wasn't that type of manner. He never made anything, Martin.

287
00:22:59.839 --> 00:23:03.480
He would buy things and sell it
and license it and sub license it,

288
00:23:03.079 --> 00:23:07.480
but he never actually made anything himself, you know. He would get

289
00:23:07.480 --> 00:23:11.880
old sixties pop groups and have them
reformed and re record some of their old

290
00:23:11.920 --> 00:23:18.079
songs. You know. So again
it was nothing new, so come around

291
00:23:18.200 --> 00:23:22.480
two thousand and six times, so
a long time afterwards, so untill he

292
00:23:22.519 --> 00:23:30.160
made a movie called Alien Autopsy.
And I've got a name of a gentleman,

293
00:23:30.000 --> 00:23:33.039
but I only had his first name. I've even got the name of

294
00:23:33.079 --> 00:23:37.400
the sculpture involved, and his name
was Spiros. Out of the blue,

295
00:23:38.000 --> 00:23:44.799
Spiros stepped forward, and his name
is Spiros Malaris. He's got many strings

296
00:23:44.799 --> 00:23:47.519
to his bow as a young man
who was trained as a motor mechanic.

297
00:23:48.359 --> 00:23:52.319
He's a filmmaker, he's a magician. He is a very good artist in

298
00:23:52.359 --> 00:23:59.359
his own right. He's a businessman. And Spiros again makes soundilly quite by

299
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accident, and sound till he told
him the same wild story he told me.

300
00:24:03.799 --> 00:24:07.279
And Spiros has a wicked sense of
humor, you know, And just

301
00:24:07.279 --> 00:24:11.720
so happens, his best friend was
a Royal Academy trained sculpture. His name

302
00:24:11.759 --> 00:24:17.119
is John Humphries. And he said
to sound till me and my friend can

303
00:24:17.160 --> 00:24:21.119
make you a real autopsy film.
And they went away and did it.

304
00:24:21.160 --> 00:24:25.799
They made it in Spirossa's sister's apartment
in London, which was being renovated at

305
00:24:25.799 --> 00:24:29.000
the time, so it didn't make
any difference if they made a bit of

306
00:24:29.000 --> 00:24:32.880
a mess. You know, it
was already in a mess. And the

307
00:24:32.960 --> 00:24:37.680
budget for it was thirty five thousand
pounds. And the reason there's two autopsy

308
00:24:37.720 --> 00:24:41.960
films, for example, is the
first one they made has a mistake in

309
00:24:41.079 --> 00:24:47.799
it, which they didn't realize until
after they'd made it. So they'd still

310
00:24:47.799 --> 00:24:49.960
got the you know, the cast
for the dummies, so they put another

311
00:24:51.039 --> 00:24:55.359
dummy. You make it overnight,
and they went back the next day and

312
00:24:55.400 --> 00:25:00.839
they've been burgled. And this is
he imagine the look on the burglar's face

313
00:25:00.880 --> 00:25:03.799
when he walked in and saw that. So they got the next dumbing out

314
00:25:03.880 --> 00:25:07.559
that had a fault on it,
which is a big hole in its leg

315
00:25:07.559 --> 00:25:11.720
because there was an air pocket.
But there was no time normally left to

316
00:25:11.759 --> 00:25:15.079
do anything, so they improvised.
They went to the butchers and stuck some

317
00:25:15.119 --> 00:25:18.559
bones and some bits of stuff in
it and burnt it. That's why you

318
00:25:18.599 --> 00:25:21.839
see a big hole in the creature's
leg. Wow. And the rest,

319
00:25:21.839 --> 00:25:26.079
as they say's history. Wow.
Yeah, we're just out of time here,

320
00:25:26.079 --> 00:25:30.720
but real quickly he's made has he
made like millions of dollars on this

321
00:25:30.279 --> 00:25:34.759
until he made millions around the world
marching the millions of dollars. It's a

322
00:25:34.799 --> 00:25:41.279
good investment. Yeah, I guess
so. And and you really can't say

323
00:25:41.599 --> 00:25:45.839
fraud because he could say it's,
you know, for entertainment or whatever.

324
00:25:45.920 --> 00:25:48.720
I don't know how all that works, but I know he's never been charged

325
00:25:48.839 --> 00:25:55.359
or anything. But how can someone
actually see this? It's we do have

326
00:25:55.400 --> 00:25:59.839
a link in the show notes,
so anywhere this podcast is even on YouTube,

327
00:26:00.319 --> 00:26:03.200
that link is there. But how
can you want to tell the listening

328
00:26:03.200 --> 00:26:07.960
audience out there where they can see
it? Documents you series Gold Alien Autopsy

329
00:26:07.640 --> 00:26:11.960
Search for the Answers. It's on
iTunes as we speak, an we'll be

330
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going on Amazon Prime shortly. Excellent. All right, thanks so much,

331
00:26:15.680 --> 00:26:18.880
Philip, always great, great fun
talking to you. You take care of

332
00:26:19.799 --> 00:26:25.759
all right? Okay, hanging everyone, We'll go right back, all right,

333
00:26:25.920 --> 00:26:30.000
welcome back to the show. I'm
very excited to announce our guest,

334
00:26:30.720 --> 00:26:37.559
Sarah's goals. And she's a Denver
based freelance science writer, contributing writer at

335
00:26:37.680 --> 00:26:45.960
Wired Science and a contributing editor at
Popular Science. She's also the author of

336
00:26:45.000 --> 00:26:53.480
the book Making Contact with Jill Tarter
and the Search for Extraterrestrial Intelligence and also

337
00:26:53.599 --> 00:26:57.799
this book we're going to be talking
about tonight they are already here, UFO

338
00:26:57.839 --> 00:27:06.000
Culture and Why We See Saucers.
And she was previously an associate editor at

339
00:27:06.079 --> 00:27:14.519
Astronomy and public education officer at the
National Radio Astronomy Observatory and Green Bank,

340
00:27:14.599 --> 00:27:18.279
West Virginia. Welcome to the show. Yeah, thank you for having me.

341
00:27:18.039 --> 00:27:22.319
I love to get people. I'm
going to say kind of on the

342
00:27:22.400 --> 00:27:26.680
outside. There are a lot of
people that are on the show that you

343
00:27:26.680 --> 00:27:32.000
know, are in a lot of
people's shows and that are just I don't

344
00:27:32.000 --> 00:27:36.200
want to say making the circuit,
but you know along those lines, they're

345
00:27:36.359 --> 00:27:38.839
they're, um, you know,
on a lot of different shows and kind

346
00:27:38.880 --> 00:27:42.799
of have a theme. But I
saw your book, I didn't get a

347
00:27:42.880 --> 00:27:47.240
chance to read it. I didn't
get your book yet. It sounds really

348
00:27:47.240 --> 00:27:52.880
interesting. So you you kind of
looked at this subject from the outside and

349
00:27:52.960 --> 00:27:55.759
kind of jumped in. I know
you had a sighting. Do you want

350
00:27:55.799 --> 00:28:00.880
to talk about that and introduce yourself
please? Sure? Yeah, my name

351
00:28:00.920 --> 00:28:06.880
is sarah' skills. Like you said, and I cover space news, astronomy,

352
00:28:07.759 --> 00:28:12.680
satellites, Earth observation, basically anything
that happens in space, which actually

353
00:28:12.680 --> 00:28:17.039
relates to the sighting that I had, which is at the start of the

354
00:28:17.119 --> 00:28:21.279
book. It was in the fall
of twenty seventeen, where I'm sure a

355
00:28:21.279 --> 00:28:26.039
lot of people remember, there was
a solar eclipse whose path went across the

356
00:28:26.160 --> 00:28:30.480
US, and I traveled with some
friends to Wyoming to go see it.

357
00:28:30.079 --> 00:28:33.880
And yeah, we spent all day
hiking, watched the eclipse, which was

358
00:28:34.640 --> 00:28:40.519
incredible. Not a UFO, but
a good sighting. And then at the

359
00:28:40.640 --> 00:28:45.440
end of the night, we couldn't
have a fire because you know, wildfires,

360
00:28:45.480 --> 00:28:49.440
and so we were just sitting outside
watching the stars in the freezing dark,

361
00:28:51.079 --> 00:28:53.359
and all of a sudden we see
we see a thing and it looks

362
00:28:53.400 --> 00:28:56.359
like a satellite. But then all
of a sudden, this searchlight just kind

363
00:28:56.359 --> 00:29:02.079
of sweeps across us and then seems
to stop right at us, like a

364
00:29:02.279 --> 00:29:06.960
tractor beam or something that's going to
take us up. And you know,

365
00:29:07.039 --> 00:29:11.880
I had never really thought very much
about UFOs before, although I've been involved

366
00:29:11.880 --> 00:29:15.880
in reporting on the search for extraterrestrial
intelligence, and I was just like,

367
00:29:15.920 --> 00:29:18.880
oh, my gosh, all this
time I've been not paying attention to this

368
00:29:18.920 --> 00:29:22.759
topic, and then now here I
am, I'm going to be I'm going

369
00:29:22.839 --> 00:29:25.720
to be a witness to something.
And then if a few minutes later,

370
00:29:26.240 --> 00:29:29.640
I happened to be with a bunch
of scientists and we all kind of deduced

371
00:29:29.680 --> 00:29:34.000
that it was actually in a ridium
communications satellite, which kind of flares when

372
00:29:34.079 --> 00:29:37.119
the sun and the sun and you
and the satellite are all in the right

373
00:29:37.160 --> 00:29:40.759
position, and it just looks like
it's got a spotlight right on you,

374
00:29:40.799 --> 00:29:45.440
which is it's very cool, even
though it's not technically a UFO. Yeah,

375
00:29:45.880 --> 00:29:48.720
I've actually I know exactly what you're
talking about. You know, when

376
00:29:48.759 --> 00:29:52.559
they hit the even though it's dark. You know, it's a little confusing

377
00:29:52.599 --> 00:29:56.839
to people, but it's dark,
but they're still catching The reason you see

378
00:29:56.839 --> 00:30:00.079
them at all is because they're catching
some sunlight. And then when they hit

379
00:30:00.559 --> 00:30:06.160
if they can be really they can
reflect really really brightly. So I can

380
00:30:06.240 --> 00:30:11.240
see why you were confused by that. But let me just ask you this

381
00:30:11.319 --> 00:30:15.119
right off the top. Do you
think people really do see something sometimes that

382
00:30:15.240 --> 00:30:22.920
it's totally unexplainable. Um, I
definitely think people see things that they can't

383
00:30:22.960 --> 00:30:26.960
explain. I think it's really hard
to determine whether those things are totally unexplained

384
00:30:26.240 --> 00:30:30.000
double but I have I have no
doubt that lots of people see lots of

385
00:30:30.000 --> 00:30:33.920
things that they can't explain, and
that you know, in every official study

386
00:30:33.960 --> 00:30:41.359
that's been done, there remains some
percentage of UFO sightings that can't be explained

387
00:30:41.400 --> 00:30:44.039
as far as we know, either
due to lack of data or due to

388
00:30:44.079 --> 00:30:48.839
lack of explanation. So I guess
I'm kind of agnostic, but I definitely

389
00:30:48.920 --> 00:30:52.319
think that people in good faith see
see things they can't explain. Yeah,

390
00:30:52.359 --> 00:30:59.279
and it sounds like in your book
you kind of explore all sides of ufology.

391
00:31:00.079 --> 00:31:03.920
I know you were at the Phoenix
UFO Congress in Phoenix. I didn't

392
00:31:03.960 --> 00:31:06.640
meet you there, but I was
there at the same time. You talk

393
00:31:06.680 --> 00:31:10.079
about that in your book going there
and what kind of an experience it is

394
00:31:10.640 --> 00:31:14.519
to go to one of those conferences, and I'm not sure I think you

395
00:31:14.519 --> 00:31:17.319
were going to another one as well. How many have you gone to in

396
00:31:17.359 --> 00:31:22.119
total? I think I've only been
to two, and that was the biggest

397
00:31:22.119 --> 00:31:26.400
one, but and I've been to
some more like local or regional, smaller

398
00:31:26.400 --> 00:31:30.640
meetings, but just two big conferences, and that the Congress in Phoenix I

399
00:31:30.680 --> 00:31:33.559
went to just like a month or
a month and a half after I started

400
00:31:33.880 --> 00:31:38.200
paying attention to UFOs at all.
So it was a very big awakening for

401
00:31:38.319 --> 00:31:42.279
me. Yeah, and it is
there is like a culture effect. And

402
00:31:42.319 --> 00:31:45.400
this is you know, part of
a book. And I'm sure that's,

403
00:31:45.799 --> 00:31:48.559
you know, part of the reason
you wrote it because you can see there's

404
00:31:49.359 --> 00:31:55.440
you know, there can be it
can be almost like a religion, and

405
00:31:55.480 --> 00:32:00.519
in some type of ways that how
some people will follow, you know,

406
00:32:00.599 --> 00:32:05.519
like a certain I don't want to
say cult like um person, but there

407
00:32:05.559 --> 00:32:10.079
are there are some people out there
that do have that kind of effect and

408
00:32:10.200 --> 00:32:15.359
people really really listen to that person, whether they're right or wrong. So

409
00:32:15.480 --> 00:32:20.640
but it sounds to me that you
you looked into this at all different levels,

410
00:32:21.039 --> 00:32:28.079
and so what did you find,
um well, in terms of the

411
00:32:28.160 --> 00:32:31.240
people, I mean, I think
what really was interesting to me about the

412
00:32:31.680 --> 00:32:37.400
International UFO Congress itself, especially as
an introduction to the whole thing, was

413
00:32:37.759 --> 00:32:40.519
that there were different groups of people, whether they were skeptics or debunkers,

414
00:32:40.599 --> 00:32:46.480
or kind of moderate people or the
true believers more on the religion profit side

415
00:32:46.480 --> 00:32:52.359
of things like like you mentioned,
but that they were all in the same

416
00:32:52.359 --> 00:32:58.039
place, all listening to the same
talks and not punching each other, And

417
00:32:58.200 --> 00:33:02.680
especially in I guess early twenty eighteen
when that was happening, it was kind

418
00:33:02.720 --> 00:33:07.640
of novel at the time to see
people with very different opinions kind of getting

419
00:33:07.000 --> 00:33:12.680
getting along. Um. And so
yeah, I think those those three groups

420
00:33:12.759 --> 00:33:22.359
all play an interesting and important role
in upology. And the the true believer

421
00:33:22.519 --> 00:33:27.079
side, who I would say,
at least in my opinion, mostly are

422
00:33:27.119 --> 00:33:31.319
true believing about the extraterrestrial hypothesis.
You know, people get a lot out

423
00:33:31.359 --> 00:33:37.680
of that, like spiritually or personally
and have a community and a belief system,

424
00:33:37.720 --> 00:33:43.039
and I think there's there's value and
that, but they might not be

425
00:33:43.079 --> 00:33:47.359
willing to look at the look at
evidence that contradicts whatever they're thinking. Um.

426
00:33:47.680 --> 00:33:52.960
And then I feel like the people
in the middle, the moderates um

427
00:33:52.759 --> 00:33:58.200
kind of uh, are the ones
who are really good at putting UFOs in

428
00:33:58.759 --> 00:34:01.920
context, in history and cultural context
and kind of able to look at the

429
00:34:01.960 --> 00:34:07.119
other two sides in a little more
of an objective way. And then there's

430
00:34:07.160 --> 00:34:10.760
the the the debunker side, for
lack of a better word. And I

431
00:34:10.800 --> 00:34:14.679
know a lot of people in uphology
don't like that side, but I kind

432
00:34:14.719 --> 00:34:17.960
of think of it a little bit
like UFO peer review, where every field

433
00:34:19.000 --> 00:34:23.159
needs somebody whose job it is to
point out the flaws in something. Yeah,

434
00:34:23.639 --> 00:34:27.480
um, that would be that would
be very helpful. Um. I

435
00:34:27.599 --> 00:34:32.360
had a scientist on this show,
Kevin ganeuth Um. I'm not sure if

436
00:34:32.360 --> 00:34:37.119
you know of him, very very
nice guy, very very good, and

437
00:34:37.199 --> 00:34:40.239
he's you know, his attitude is
like, you know, if there really

438
00:34:40.360 --> 00:34:45.079
is something to this, he wants
to be on the ground level, you

439
00:34:45.159 --> 00:34:50.000
know where where he's right there ready, And so I think it's it's fascinating.

440
00:34:50.039 --> 00:34:52.519
And then, you know, on
the other side, when it gets

441
00:34:52.559 --> 00:34:57.880
to UM you mentioned debunkers, it
brings me up to a thought of Mick

442
00:34:57.960 --> 00:35:04.360
West His you know a debunker Meta
I can't think of the name Meta something

443
00:35:04.920 --> 00:35:07.639
is the name of his UM website, and he is, uh, he's

444
00:35:07.679 --> 00:35:14.400
debunking the last three video of the
three videos that were released by you know,

445
00:35:14.440 --> 00:35:17.119
the Pentagon as as they're all airplanes, and you know, a lot

446
00:35:17.119 --> 00:35:22.320
of times he makes total sense on
his debunking, and he does really good

447
00:35:22.000 --> 00:35:25.760
diagrams and all that but this one, he's off on this one. And

448
00:35:25.920 --> 00:35:29.960
UM. The reason I say that
is, you know, for instance,

449
00:35:30.000 --> 00:35:34.880
would the government, even would the
Pentagon actually say, you know, yes,

450
00:35:35.000 --> 00:35:39.679
these are indeed unidentified um And and
Mick would have the answer. I

451
00:35:39.719 --> 00:35:43.920
don't. I don't think that that's
going to happen. And the airline,

452
00:35:43.960 --> 00:35:46.320
you know, the fighter pilots that
saw what they saw, all that,

453
00:35:46.599 --> 00:35:50.920
it's all. It's all interesting.
But you know, Um, like you

454
00:35:50.960 --> 00:35:53.159
said, there are different sides.
Yeah, and I mean I think,

455
00:35:53.760 --> 00:35:59.760
yeah, even even if you find
flaws in Mick West or any other debunkers

456
00:36:00.000 --> 00:36:05.599
explanations, I feel like that's that's
good too. And also he would he

457
00:36:05.599 --> 00:36:07.920
would want that, I think.
And it I feel like it pushes If

458
00:36:07.920 --> 00:36:12.000
somebody says you're wrong and I'm right, then that kind of pushes the other

459
00:36:12.039 --> 00:36:15.400
side to say, no, here's
here's my reason why you're wrong and I'm

460
00:36:15.480 --> 00:36:17.199
right. And I feel like it
maybe stirs up a little bit of healthy

461
00:36:17.480 --> 00:36:22.480
debate. M Yeah, that that
does make sense. When you were looking

462
00:36:22.519 --> 00:36:28.079
into this topic, did you go
back in time or did you stay contemporary?

463
00:36:29.639 --> 00:36:32.559
I went back in time a bit. Um. I there's one chapter

464
00:36:32.639 --> 00:36:38.440
that's all about the early governmental programs
um mostly Blue Book, but also the

465
00:36:38.440 --> 00:36:43.159
ones that preceded it. And then
also a little bit of the history of

466
00:36:43.400 --> 00:36:49.039
M. Robert Bigelow's interest in UFOs
and the paranormal. Yes, and that

467
00:36:49.039 --> 00:36:52.480
that does come up on this show
quite a bit. And what did you

468
00:36:52.000 --> 00:36:57.840
what were your thoughts about Bigelow and
his his interest and skin Walker Ranch and

469
00:36:57.880 --> 00:37:04.159
all that needs. Yeah, so, yeah, Bigelow is a very interesting

470
00:37:04.159 --> 00:37:08.719
figure because he's this in respectable businessman
who has you know, contracts with NASA

471
00:37:08.880 --> 00:37:15.400
technology on the International Space Station.
And I think for that reason, he's

472
00:37:15.440 --> 00:37:22.599
able to have this interest in UFOs
and the paranormal and still be taken seriously

473
00:37:22.760 --> 00:37:24.880
as as a business person. And
so he's been able to use that and

474
00:37:24.960 --> 00:37:30.159
use his money to fund a lot
of research into these topics that he finds

475
00:37:30.599 --> 00:37:35.159
personally interesting. And it has seemed
like, at least from the outside,

476
00:37:35.159 --> 00:37:37.840
and he didn't want to be interviewed
for the book. That didn't happen,

477
00:37:38.159 --> 00:37:43.440
although I would have liked to.
But you know, the idea was always

478
00:37:44.000 --> 00:37:50.199
let's go about this scientifically, Let's
get the right technology, let's gather this

479
00:37:50.360 --> 00:37:53.119
data, let's get you know,
a large scale effort going in a way

480
00:37:53.159 --> 00:38:00.599
that hasn't really existed before. And
I think that is admirable. I think

481
00:38:00.639 --> 00:38:04.800
that is a good goal. But
my problem with it, after investigating it

482
00:38:04.880 --> 00:38:07.960
for a while is that the rest
of us never see that data. Sometimes

483
00:38:08.000 --> 00:38:13.440
we get books about what was found, but it only does so much good

484
00:38:13.440 --> 00:38:17.000
if you collect data and then you
don't release it. I think that's been

485
00:38:17.079 --> 00:38:22.840
the complaint of a number of people
about that particular um, you know,

486
00:38:22.079 --> 00:38:29.039
uh situation you're talking about, and
and mine too. I think I agree

487
00:38:29.079 --> 00:38:31.440
with you there, Um you know, what good is you know, like

488
00:38:31.719 --> 00:38:37.800
for I had Kurt Collins on recently
who talked about his uh big gloves association

489
00:38:37.800 --> 00:38:42.719
with moufon and collecting all the you
know, all the data, paying for

490
00:38:42.840 --> 00:38:47.199
it during when he was getting funding
and all that, and but what is

491
00:38:47.480 --> 00:38:53.320
what good is all of that information? If it's compiled somewhere and never sees

492
00:38:53.679 --> 00:38:58.360
the lighted day, it doesn't do
anyone any good. Um, And then

493
00:38:58.400 --> 00:39:00.400
you know, he's on I can't
remember was it sixty minutes or he was

494
00:39:00.440 --> 00:39:04.880
on one of these interviews where he
said, you know, I've spent more

495
00:39:04.880 --> 00:39:07.960
money on UFOs or this topic than
anyone in the world. You know that

496
00:39:08.039 --> 00:39:12.440
type of thing, and you know, they're here, they're you know,

497
00:39:12.639 --> 00:39:15.079
it's happening and blah blah blah.
But then again, that's it. We

498
00:39:15.119 --> 00:39:22.079
don't really have, you know,
it's kind of it's kind of empty because

499
00:39:22.079 --> 00:39:25.159
we don't have any of that information, and so you just kind of hit

500
00:39:25.199 --> 00:39:30.760
it brick wall when you looked into
that. Really, yeah, yeah,

501
00:39:30.800 --> 00:39:35.400
pretty much, I only have the
publicly available information that everybody else has.

502
00:39:35.480 --> 00:39:37.039
Really, I would I would love
to see the data, and I would

503
00:39:37.039 --> 00:39:42.599
love for him to release it,
even if it doesn't show what he or

504
00:39:42.639 --> 00:39:46.000
others hoped it would show. I
think it would be useful to the community.

505
00:39:46.000 --> 00:39:51.519
And also that's how that's how science
works. And if if these sorts

506
00:39:51.519 --> 00:39:54.280
of studies want to be thought of
as science, then they have to be

507
00:39:54.559 --> 00:40:00.320
open and transparent. Yeah. I've
said a number of times on this show

508
00:40:00.320 --> 00:40:06.159
that this is such a you know, UFOs are so fleeting, they're unpredictable

509
00:40:06.679 --> 00:40:09.239
when they happen. I had a
sighting that I couldn't explain. And when

510
00:40:09.239 --> 00:40:13.440
it happens like that, how are
you going to repeat it? You know?

511
00:40:13.480 --> 00:40:15.679
I mean, that's that's the tough
part. One of the reasons science

512
00:40:15.719 --> 00:40:20.920
doesn't get involved. And the other
is, you know, I've had this

513
00:40:21.360 --> 00:40:25.360
discussion with scientists and it kind of
boils down to if you can't solve something

514
00:40:25.400 --> 00:40:29.239
within a certain amount of time,
no one is going to fund you.

515
00:40:29.960 --> 00:40:34.960
And what are your thoughts about that
as a science writer, Yeah, I

516
00:40:35.000 --> 00:40:38.239
think that's I think that's true.
Funding agencies like the you know, the

517
00:40:38.360 --> 00:40:45.239
National Science Foundation or the National Institutes
of Health or any of the national organizations

518
00:40:45.239 --> 00:40:49.440
in the US, I'll want you
to be able to deliver results and data

519
00:40:49.440 --> 00:40:54.079
on a reasonable timeline. And then
also scientists have to publish papers to remain

520
00:40:54.679 --> 00:40:59.320
employed and get tenure and things like
that. So if you're not producing results,

521
00:40:59.320 --> 00:41:00.519
not only are you're you're not going
to get money, but nobody's going

522
00:41:00.559 --> 00:41:07.719
to hire you to do things.
And that's that's actually something that the SETI

523
00:41:07.800 --> 00:41:12.639
community, the search for extraterrestrial intelligence
community, has run into a lot.

524
00:41:13.400 --> 00:41:19.440
They have largely had to be funded
by private donors for that very reason because

525
00:41:19.440 --> 00:41:23.199
they're not they're not producing positive results
in the same way that other fields might.

526
00:41:23.239 --> 00:41:29.760
And then also it means that young
researchers historically haven't really gotten involved because

527
00:41:30.119 --> 00:41:32.679
they need to build up their publication
record, and there's just not a way

528
00:41:32.679 --> 00:41:37.039
too. And so it makes sense
that that you know, ufology being even

529
00:41:37.079 --> 00:41:43.119
one more step removed from that would
be the same. So like to say,

530
00:41:43.159 --> 00:41:45.760
if someone did have a lot of
published papers and all of a sudden

531
00:41:45.760 --> 00:41:51.320
they took an interest in this topic, do you think they would be more

532
00:41:51.400 --> 00:41:58.280
able to move ahead than someone just
getting started? Yeah? I do,

533
00:41:58.559 --> 00:42:02.440
especially if you know, if a
just had tenure at a university or something.

534
00:42:02.519 --> 00:42:07.719
You know, the purpose of tenure
is so that you can have intellectual

535
00:42:07.760 --> 00:42:14.360
freedom to pursue whatever kinds of controversial
topics that you want and have job security.

536
00:42:14.440 --> 00:42:16.679
So once you've established yourself and gotten
to that point, which for a

537
00:42:16.679 --> 00:42:21.880
lot of people doesn't happen until they're, you know, in their forties,

538
00:42:22.440 --> 00:42:25.280
then they might be able to do
it. And I think you you know,

539
00:42:25.360 --> 00:42:30.559
you see some version of that among
very established scientists. Like I don't

540
00:42:30.559 --> 00:42:35.159
know if you all talked about this
on the show ever, but the I

541
00:42:35.199 --> 00:42:40.760
always am worried when I pronounced it, the Amamua, the the space rock

542
00:42:42.280 --> 00:42:46.159
that the chair of Harvard Astronomy said, maybe that's a spaceship, Like there's

543
00:42:46.280 --> 00:42:50.519
there's a reason, Yeah, there's
a reason that the chair of Harvard Astronomy

544
00:42:50.559 --> 00:42:52.440
was allowed to say that and keep
his job, but if a grad student

545
00:42:52.519 --> 00:42:55.920
said it, they just would not. And so yeah, I think,

546
00:42:57.679 --> 00:43:00.199
yeah, people in powerful positions can
do things like that. And that was

547
00:43:00.239 --> 00:43:05.519
like an extra stellar, I mean
outer stellar, another solar system or another.

548
00:43:05.599 --> 00:43:10.199
It came elsewhere and you know,
oblong shaped and strange and I think

549
00:43:10.239 --> 00:43:15.280
it was even moving strangely, like
tossing or something. I'm not sure what

550
00:43:15.320 --> 00:43:20.519
it was doing, but yeah,
that that is interesting. Um, you

551
00:43:20.559 --> 00:43:24.639
know, I listened to some astronomy
you know, it's called Astronomy Cast and

552
00:43:24.639 --> 00:43:31.480
and then you know, I also
listened to what Seth Shawstak his show Big

553
00:43:31.519 --> 00:43:38.000
Picture Science. To listen to that
sometimes and it's really interesting how something can

554
00:43:38.079 --> 00:43:43.960
show up and it's so unusual and
seems like it has to be or possibly

555
00:43:44.119 --> 00:43:50.079
could be extra terrestrial, and then
there's an explanation and it's just the explanation

556
00:43:50.199 --> 00:43:52.719
is we've never seen this before.
There's a lot of that happening, and

557
00:43:53.320 --> 00:43:58.320
we'll still happen, I'm sure,
Yeah, definitely, But that and that's

558
00:43:58.360 --> 00:44:04.199
why I feel like even though even
though sometimes debunking is it can be mean

559
00:44:04.320 --> 00:44:09.719
spirited like coming trying to see if
more conventional explanations might fit first before jumping

560
00:44:09.719 --> 00:44:14.400
to another conclusion is useful, I
think. And in the end, if

561
00:44:14.440 --> 00:44:19.880
there's something truly extraordinary, then it
would it stands up to that and you

562
00:44:19.920 --> 00:44:22.440
can find out that the like the
next space rock is a spaceship and not

563
00:44:22.559 --> 00:44:31.639
a not an extra solar object.
Right. Um, So December sixteenth,

564
00:44:31.679 --> 00:44:36.039
I think it was twenty seventeen,
the New York Times comes out with the

565
00:44:36.159 --> 00:44:39.480
article. And this was shortly after
you was in it, shortly after you

566
00:44:39.559 --> 00:44:44.719
started thinking about this topic, and
yeah, that was really good time to

567
00:44:44.840 --> 00:44:49.079
jump in if Yeah, it was
just a few months after the solar eclipse,

568
00:44:49.800 --> 00:44:52.960
right, And how what do you
think that? What do you think

569
00:44:52.960 --> 00:45:00.280
about the the change that has made
since that has happened? Yeah, I

570
00:45:00.320 --> 00:45:05.280
think, Um, I mean a
lot of things have have totally changed,

571
00:45:05.320 --> 00:45:08.440
And I mean I have my reservations
about that article, which I think will

572
00:45:08.440 --> 00:45:14.800
probably talk about at some point.
But whatever else it accomplished it you know,

573
00:45:14.840 --> 00:45:19.760
it made UFOs mainstream and it made
them official, like this was a

574
00:45:19.800 --> 00:45:23.880
Pentagon program, this is the New
York Times. It made them a topic

575
00:45:23.960 --> 00:45:30.639
that was you know, verifiable in
some ways and able to be talked about

576
00:45:30.719 --> 00:45:37.000
in polite, intellectual society, and
then has also kind of ushered in even

577
00:45:37.039 --> 00:45:43.519
more things at the you know,
official political level. There are classified briefings.

578
00:45:43.639 --> 00:45:46.679
The Navy has issued those new guidelines
about how to report UFOs like it's

579
00:45:46.719 --> 00:45:51.800
it's gotten a lot of governmental action, and then you know, in the

580
00:45:51.920 --> 00:45:57.480
years since also a lot of mainstream
press attention and and uh yeah, very

581
00:45:57.519 --> 00:46:01.880
reputable people talking about them in in
a way without what at least study scientists

582
00:46:01.880 --> 00:46:07.719
called the giggle factor of just laughing
it all off. Yeah, yeah,

583
00:46:07.880 --> 00:46:10.920
it really changed up. I was
right here when all that was happening,

584
00:46:10.920 --> 00:46:15.400
and I saw the changes in And
one of the authors of that was on

585
00:46:15.559 --> 00:46:20.519
not too many weeks ago, Leslie
Kane, And uh, you know,

586
00:46:21.320 --> 00:46:24.800
so I caught what you said there. You said you had some there was

587
00:46:24.840 --> 00:46:29.039
some things about the article. So
let's hear what your your thoughts are.

588
00:46:30.079 --> 00:46:36.199
Um, well, when when I
first read the article, I thought,

589
00:46:36.280 --> 00:46:39.079
you know, if this is,
if what this article is implying is true,

590
00:46:39.159 --> 00:46:43.800
this is you know, some of
the biggest news in history, because

591
00:46:43.800 --> 00:46:46.000
at least in my opinion, the
article kind of implied that they did not

592
00:46:46.119 --> 00:46:53.280
come from here that they came from
out there and that that the Pentagon was

593
00:46:53.400 --> 00:46:57.719
studying that, and I thought,
um, you know, this is something

594
00:46:57.760 --> 00:47:00.599
I would like to look into,
and so I just kind of started going

595
00:47:00.519 --> 00:47:05.840
through the story um for Wired magazine. It was an assignment for Wired,

596
00:47:06.079 --> 00:47:09.480
um line by line, trying to
figure out what the pieces of evidence were

597
00:47:09.679 --> 00:47:15.920
for each thing that was in there, and UM, you know, there

598
00:47:15.960 --> 00:47:19.400
were there were some red flags for
me at the at the beginning, Like

599
00:47:19.400 --> 00:47:22.840
when I first started talking to the
Pentagon, they said that they had not

600
00:47:22.960 --> 00:47:27.000
released these videos, which, as
you and I'm sure most of your listeners

601
00:47:27.000 --> 00:47:30.599
know, has been kind of a
year's long debate that has just kind of

602
00:47:30.639 --> 00:47:35.079
been wrapped up with the with the
new official Dood statement that came I think

603
00:47:35.159 --> 00:47:39.280
last week, um or maybe the
week before. It's hard to tell time

604
00:47:39.280 --> 00:47:44.199
these days, it is, I
know, every day it's the same Um

605
00:47:45.079 --> 00:47:50.480
yeah yeah, um, I yeah, I I. I actually traveled to

606
00:47:50.559 --> 00:47:53.800
the Pentagon to try to get some
confirmation on you know what what the program

607
00:47:54.039 --> 00:48:00.360
was studying. Wow, yeah yeah
yeah. I had just gotten um a

608
00:48:00.440 --> 00:48:05.079
new airline credit card and had a
bunch of miles for free, like you

609
00:48:05.119 --> 00:48:07.280
do when you sign up. So
so I just got a last minute of

610
00:48:07.280 --> 00:48:12.519
flight, and yeah, I was
trying to sort out what, you know,

611
00:48:12.519 --> 00:48:15.119
what the program's goals were. They
would never confirm to me that that

612
00:48:15.199 --> 00:48:20.320
Louis Elizondo, who the article said
was the director of the program, even

613
00:48:20.360 --> 00:48:22.960
worked for it. No one could
find his resignation letter that was quoted in

614
00:48:22.960 --> 00:48:27.280
the article, and so it just, um, yeah, it just still

615
00:48:27.320 --> 00:48:31.000
started to seem a little bit fishy
to me on both sides. Yeah.

616
00:48:31.119 --> 00:48:36.199
Yeah, you know, when I
had Leslie on, we were talking about

617
00:48:36.679 --> 00:48:42.440
how careful that that article took two
months. I believe she said to actually

618
00:48:42.519 --> 00:48:47.599
write and get out because they're so
so careful on fact checking on a story

619
00:48:47.679 --> 00:48:51.920
like that. You know, maybe
some stories they don't need anywhere near that,

620
00:48:52.400 --> 00:48:53.639
but that one, like you said, is such a big story.

621
00:48:54.519 --> 00:48:59.920
So they really really tried to cover
all the bases. And I know there's

622
00:49:00.079 --> 00:49:02.519
some back and forth. There's been, you know, I've had John Greenwald

623
00:49:02.559 --> 00:49:07.480
on the show. Um, there's
um some things that he's uncovered, and

624
00:49:07.639 --> 00:49:14.960
he's actually you know, showed emails
um that we're a spokesperson said, you

625
00:49:15.000 --> 00:49:19.400
know, Lewis Alexando did not you
know, work here or whatever it was.

626
00:49:20.000 --> 00:49:22.519
But then that was reversed. There
was some there's some back and forth,

627
00:49:23.000 --> 00:49:28.599
and there's been many times I guess
that there's been misquotes. So it's

628
00:49:28.719 --> 00:49:34.000
really really hard to understand what is
real and what is not when it comes

629
00:49:34.039 --> 00:49:37.159
to all this. Yeah, definitely, And that was that was the only

630
00:49:37.199 --> 00:49:39.559
conclusion I could come to when I
was writing about it for the book,

631
00:49:39.639 --> 00:49:44.440
is that, um, you know, the Pentagon has reversed itself a few

632
00:49:44.480 --> 00:49:50.119
times on whether it was a program
that studied UAP, what their Alexando worked

633
00:49:50.119 --> 00:49:53.400
for them, things like that,
and and just the story always, the

634
00:49:53.480 --> 00:49:59.679
official story always keeps changing, and
it's um, I feel like now and

635
00:50:00.000 --> 00:50:06.400
throughout history, it's always been in
in someone's interest to keep everything um and

636
00:50:06.559 --> 00:50:08.599
not. Yeah, I'm not sure
why. I wish I knew why,

637
00:50:08.679 --> 00:50:14.199
but yeah, yeah, I've thought
that, you know, perhaps there is

638
00:50:15.280 --> 00:50:20.119
a part of the government compartmentalized or
something that might know something, but I

639
00:50:20.159 --> 00:50:22.519
don't, you know, I mean, there's no way, there's no way

640
00:50:22.559 --> 00:50:25.559
to tell. And I had,
um, Chris Mellon, who's uh you

641
00:50:25.599 --> 00:50:30.079
know, was part of the DoD
on this show of a couple of years

642
00:50:30.079 --> 00:50:34.920
ago, and you know, he
said something along the lines well, if

643
00:50:35.000 --> 00:50:40.039
something goes private, then they are
not subject congressional um, you know,

644
00:50:40.079 --> 00:50:44.239
evaluation or anything like that. And
so in other words, he was just

645
00:50:44.719 --> 00:50:49.639
sort of hinting that something, you
know, some information or whatever may go

646
00:50:49.760 --> 00:50:53.639
private and uh, you know,
to to protect it. But I don't

647
00:50:53.679 --> 00:50:57.639
know, you know, I mean, um, I was My son was

648
00:50:57.679 --> 00:51:04.920
asking me questions yesterday and I told
him about them. I can't remember what

649
00:51:05.039 --> 00:51:07.519
year it was, but there was
a dummy warhead that went up, and

650
00:51:07.840 --> 00:51:13.519
um, there was a telescope camera
that caught this disc you know, shooting

651
00:51:13.679 --> 00:51:16.480
you know, raise at it a
dummy disk and the guy taking the video

652
00:51:16.559 --> 00:51:21.599
didn't even know about it until he
got called in. And uh, you

653
00:51:21.639 --> 00:51:23.559
know, I was told that this
didn't happen and you know, kind of

654
00:51:23.559 --> 00:51:30.320
go away type of thing. Um, and that that video exists somewhere.

655
00:51:30.519 --> 00:51:38.320
Videos from the Nimits case incident they
exist somewhere if you had to. I

656
00:51:38.320 --> 00:51:42.679
don't know what you think about speculating, but if you did, where would

657
00:51:42.719 --> 00:51:45.559
you think something like this would would
end up? Where would it go?

658
00:51:45.639 --> 00:51:49.280
And people say there's you know,
Roswell stuff somewhere. You know, I

659
00:51:49.280 --> 00:51:52.800
don't know about any of that.
Yeah, I don't know if I know

660
00:51:52.960 --> 00:52:00.360
enough about government file cabinets to know
where they would be. UM, but

661
00:52:00.079 --> 00:52:04.480
UM, yeah, I I mean
I would be very interested in things like

662
00:52:04.559 --> 00:52:07.840
the full videos from the nimits and
then also things like the radar returns.

663
00:52:07.880 --> 00:52:10.800
And it's kind of it's kind of
what we were just saying about Robert Bigelow,

664
00:52:10.880 --> 00:52:15.719
like if this this data exists,
and it's kind of very frustrating that

665
00:52:15.800 --> 00:52:19.840
it's that we don't have it.
And yeah, I don't know where it

666
00:52:19.840 --> 00:52:24.519
would be. But UM, you
mentioned John Greenwald a minute ago and his

667
00:52:24.880 --> 00:52:32.039
book UM about the um alleged government
cover up of UFOs documents and number of

668
00:52:32.079 --> 00:52:38.280
times that the government has tried to
bury various things like, um, I'm

669
00:52:38.320 --> 00:52:44.000
not remembering exactly which document it is, but he tried to get some original

670
00:52:44.079 --> 00:52:47.800
records UM without redactions and it turned
out that those have been destroyed and only

671
00:52:47.800 --> 00:52:53.159
the redacted versions existed. Yeah,
and so I mean there's there's tricks like

672
00:52:53.239 --> 00:52:58.760
that, And UM, it is
true that governments don't always want information to

673
00:52:58.840 --> 00:53:02.480
be public, often don't want information
to be public. You could you could

674
00:53:02.559 --> 00:53:07.599
speculate too that you know, I've
often thought that the Air Force or you

675
00:53:07.599 --> 00:53:12.559
know now the Navy, as as
we know, the Navy is also involved

676
00:53:12.559 --> 00:53:19.199
in these type of things or encounters
or whatever that they probably it's possible that

677
00:53:19.280 --> 00:53:22.880
they know as much as we do, which is nothing. And yeah,

678
00:53:22.960 --> 00:53:28.679
and if that's the case, then
I can see why they'd want to hide

679
00:53:29.000 --> 00:53:32.639
things because they can't say that they're
they're protectors of the sky, you know

680
00:53:32.800 --> 00:53:38.679
basically. So yeah, and uh
I yeah. One of the I read

681
00:53:38.719 --> 00:53:45.800
some you know, anthropological studies of
upology while I was um working on the

682
00:53:45.840 --> 00:53:50.360
book, and that is something that
seemed especially true in the Cold War two

683
00:53:50.519 --> 00:53:57.039
is the part of the reason that
the Defense Department didn't want people to pay

684
00:53:57.079 --> 00:54:00.679
that much attention to UFOs was because
it put them in a bad light that

685
00:54:00.719 --> 00:54:04.840
there were these things just flying around
that they didn't know what they were,

686
00:54:04.880 --> 00:54:09.480
couldn't detect, and couldn't shoot down. That doesn't exactly inspire confidence. Yeah,

687
00:54:09.559 --> 00:54:12.760
I think the last thing they ever
want to do is try to shoot

688
00:54:12.760 --> 00:54:17.679
one down, whatever it is,
however it got here. So what do

689
00:54:17.719 --> 00:54:22.000
you think of the you know,
so you were in this when all of

690
00:54:22.000 --> 00:54:27.599
a sudden, Tom DeLong is out
there and he's starting you know, TTSA

691
00:54:27.679 --> 00:54:34.079
and that from from all of us, not just from someone kind of coming

692
00:54:34.119 --> 00:54:38.679
in from the outside. Um is
interesting to say the least. And so

693
00:54:38.760 --> 00:54:45.760
what are your thoughts on what they
are doing or trying to do us?

694
00:54:46.599 --> 00:54:51.320
Yeah, I mean that that was
one of my initial concerns with the New

695
00:54:51.400 --> 00:54:57.320
York Times reporting was that it was
exactly pretty much exactly time to when to

696
00:54:57.480 --> 00:55:00.840
the Stars put up its website and
put up these videos, and just it

697
00:55:00.920 --> 00:55:06.400
concerned me that it seemed like a
coordinated pr campaign for what they were doing

698
00:55:06.760 --> 00:55:09.280
while they were raising money. And
I mean, I think a lot of

699
00:55:09.320 --> 00:55:15.639
people had high hopes for what they
would do. You know, they we're

700
00:55:15.639 --> 00:55:19.320
trying to raise money, and at
least at the beginning, we're promising to

701
00:55:19.400 --> 00:55:25.760
reverse engineer some kind of amazing aerospace
technology that they at least implied was going

702
00:55:25.800 --> 00:55:30.639
to be uIP related. But I
also think a lot of people, including

703
00:55:30.800 --> 00:55:35.480
people who invested in them, are
disappointed right now that most of what they

704
00:55:35.519 --> 00:55:39.039
have produced is entertainment. And I
saw the other day they released a new

705
00:55:39.079 --> 00:55:45.639
mobile billboard for emergency services, and
I think, you know, they didn't

706
00:55:45.719 --> 00:55:51.320
raise as much money as as they
were hoping to. And yeah, I

707
00:55:51.360 --> 00:55:57.159
think there's skepticism, including from me
that they have always just intended to be

708
00:55:57.840 --> 00:56:04.360
an entertainment company. But I do
you think that Tom DeLong, based on

709
00:56:04.400 --> 00:56:07.119
all the research I've done, is
a is a true believer with a true

710
00:56:07.360 --> 00:56:10.440
interest in the topic. Like I
went back as far as I could and

711
00:56:12.159 --> 00:56:15.840
in archives from when he was first
starting to get famous for being in Blink

712
00:56:15.840 --> 00:56:20.360
one eighty two, and I mean
starting in the nineties. His bandmates were

713
00:56:20.360 --> 00:56:25.320
talking about him reading UFO books on
the tour bus and getting really obsessed with

714
00:56:25.320 --> 00:56:30.159
it, going out to Area fifty
one. And I think that his interests

715
00:56:30.360 --> 00:56:37.239
is genuine, even if his interpretations
are sometimes misguided. Yes, And there

716
00:56:37.320 --> 00:56:42.280
was some there was some back and
forth on Twitter the other night with our

717
00:56:42.800 --> 00:56:49.280
with Alejandro Rojas actually who was just
on earlier, and he was basically kind

718
00:56:49.320 --> 00:56:52.880
of telling them, hey, look, you know it's it's you're not really

719
00:56:52.960 --> 00:57:00.599
letting the UFO community in until you
need them, and why is you know,

720
00:57:00.679 --> 00:57:04.800
why is there a gap? And
he actually had people like Tom DeLong

721
00:57:05.000 --> 00:57:08.760
responded to him, Leu Alexander responded
to him, and so did Chris Mellon.

722
00:57:09.079 --> 00:57:12.840
So they all kind of responded to
him and say, yeah, you're

723
00:57:12.920 --> 00:57:15.000
right, you know, we've got
to build a bridge type of thing,

724
00:57:15.480 --> 00:57:19.800
and so we're not, um,
you know, we're not shutting everyone out

725
00:57:19.840 --> 00:57:22.079
that type of thing, which I
thought was good. You know, maybe

726
00:57:22.079 --> 00:57:25.559
something will happen out of it.
So they were saying that this is kind

727
00:57:25.599 --> 00:57:30.800
of the groundwork while they built things
up and then that will come later.

728
00:57:30.960 --> 00:57:35.719
Or they said they were saying they
needed to reach out to the community more.

729
00:57:35.800 --> 00:57:37.960
Yeah, they needed like some type
of bridge out to the community more.

730
00:57:38.119 --> 00:57:42.440
And um, you know a lot
of people I can understand a little

731
00:57:42.440 --> 00:57:46.119
bit of why they're hesitant, but
they shouldn't, you know, just seal

732
00:57:46.199 --> 00:57:52.559
us off and away and all that. But but they had received so much

733
00:57:52.639 --> 00:57:57.440
criticism that you know, there was
there was some jealousies, and there was

734
00:57:58.039 --> 00:58:01.360
something people making really good points on
why they didn't like them. And the

735
00:58:01.480 --> 00:58:07.920
entertainment factor I think confuses everyone.
Confuses me, even though I've had it

736
00:58:07.960 --> 00:58:10.840
explained to me several times. It's
a way to raise money, but it

737
00:58:10.920 --> 00:58:14.320
just to me, it just kind
of muddies the water of what they're trying

738
00:58:14.320 --> 00:58:19.400
to do. But I suppose they
have to survive somehow. Yeah, yeah,

739
00:58:19.480 --> 00:58:22.000
No, I am interested to see
what happens next. And I'm also

740
00:58:22.079 --> 00:58:28.880
very interested to see what comes of
their cooperative research agreement with the Army to

741
00:58:28.960 --> 00:58:34.519
look into the meta materials that they
had. I hope those results become public

742
00:58:35.639 --> 00:58:38.360
because that would be a concrete thing, especially in that the people who invested

743
00:58:38.400 --> 00:58:43.000
could could see the work that they're
doing. That's more along the lines of

744
00:58:43.199 --> 00:58:46.960
what was promised. Right. You
mentioned Area fifty one earlier. What do

745
00:58:46.960 --> 00:58:53.599
you think of Area fifty one.
I went out there a couple of times

746
00:58:53.800 --> 00:59:01.000
for the book. To me,
there's not very much of a story for

747
00:59:01.159 --> 00:59:07.119
the alien or flank saucer side of
things. Most of what we have just

748
00:59:07.199 --> 00:59:13.039
really comes from Bob Lazar's account of
what happened. And UM, I know,

749
00:59:13.159 --> 00:59:16.920
I know people have different opinions.
My opinion is that he is not

750
00:59:16.960 --> 00:59:24.599
a credible source, and so there's
really nothing else that we have the supports

751
00:59:24.599 --> 00:59:30.079
of that hypothesis, but there is
a lot to show that there is very

752
00:59:30.119 --> 00:59:36.280
interesting aerospace work that's going on there. Um. And so when I went

753
00:59:36.280 --> 00:59:43.280
out there, which was October of
twenty eighteen, UM, you know,

754
00:59:43.360 --> 00:59:49.079
I didn't really expect to see very
much. And as soon as we got

755
00:59:49.119 --> 00:59:54.559
there, my sister and my friend
and I we saw these orange orbs just

756
00:59:54.679 --> 01:00:00.639
hovering in exactly a disc shape that
would appear and disappear and appear, disappear.

757
01:00:01.239 --> 01:00:06.519
It was very cool. Um they
were flare exercises, so some military

758
01:00:06.599 --> 01:00:12.159
jets dropping flares in patterns. But
it made me really understand why the area

759
01:00:12.280 --> 01:00:15.840
has like a lore around it.
And um we did we did see.

760
01:00:15.119 --> 01:00:22.239
Um actually this is still a UFO
to me. In the sky kind of

761
01:00:22.280 --> 01:00:27.079
fully somewhere between a quarter and a
half of the sky filled up with these

762
01:00:27.119 --> 01:00:31.000
little white dots that were arranged in
a very linear pattern, just rows and

763
01:00:31.039 --> 01:00:35.920
columns of dots that kind of just
appeared out of nowhere, moved in unison

764
01:00:36.280 --> 01:00:42.239
and then disappeared. Birds. No, no, no, sometimes people see

765
01:00:42.320 --> 01:00:45.800
no. I'm bringing up a point
because sometimes there's high altitude birds that will

766
01:00:45.840 --> 01:00:50.719
get way way up there almost you
know, a mile's high up in the

767
01:00:50.760 --> 01:00:52.840
sky, and then the sun hits
them when they all turn their wings and

768
01:00:52.920 --> 01:00:59.239
they appear and then and then when
they turn away they disappear when they turn

769
01:00:59.400 --> 01:01:04.320
the other way. So it's very
high altitude Swarmer birds are all the time

770
01:01:04.320 --> 01:01:08.320
are mistaken for UFOs, which I
think is really interesting. Okay, interesting

771
01:01:08.400 --> 01:01:13.199
yeah, these were at night,
so oh it was at night. It

772
01:01:13.239 --> 01:01:17.400
was a night. Yeah, well
that theory. I love that theory though.

773
01:01:19.039 --> 01:01:21.239
No, the guy who the guy
who lived in town and watched as

774
01:01:21.280 --> 01:01:24.239
all the time thought they were probably
like a fleet of drones, autonomous drones

775
01:01:24.280 --> 01:01:28.880
playing all together in formation. Yeah, there was quite a drone thing going

776
01:01:28.920 --> 01:01:31.840
on not far from you. You're
in the Denver area, and I am

777
01:01:31.920 --> 01:01:37.519
did you follow any of that when
those drones were a little bit? Yeah,

778
01:01:37.519 --> 01:01:39.480
I wasn't doing any reporting on it, so I wasn't following it that

779
01:01:39.719 --> 01:01:44.760
closely. What the last I heard
that there was a conclusion that it was

780
01:01:44.840 --> 01:01:50.000
kind of some version of mass hysteria
where people just it was only a few

781
01:01:50.079 --> 01:01:53.159
drones and people just started you know, seeing more and more. But I

782
01:01:53.199 --> 01:01:57.440
think there was more to the story
after that hypothesis. I don't know what

783
01:01:57.480 --> 01:02:00.000
it was though, I haven't followed
it. I haven't followed it for I

784
01:02:00.280 --> 01:02:05.400
had just you know, looked at
it a little bit. But yeah,

785
01:02:05.440 --> 01:02:10.159
that's really interesting. So Area fifty
one. You're talking about, um Bob

786
01:02:10.239 --> 01:02:16.719
Lazar and I get I get mail
every time I say this. I really

787
01:02:17.039 --> 01:02:22.960
my stand on Bob Blazar is this
and I welcome your your rebuttals, but

788
01:02:23.199 --> 01:02:29.760
is that I do not believe that
Bob Lazar's story. And there's a lot

789
01:02:29.800 --> 01:02:36.599
of people that I like that do
believe his story, but it's just it's

790
01:02:36.800 --> 01:02:39.920
just too much. And then,
you know, I believe, you know,

791
01:02:40.159 --> 01:02:45.119
with the last movie that Jeremy Corbell
made, and I like Jeremy,

792
01:02:45.360 --> 01:02:51.519
we talk now and then, but
I feel like I'm being forced to believe

793
01:02:51.880 --> 01:02:55.480
Bob Lazar's story, and the more
that happens, the more I'm not convinced.

794
01:02:57.079 --> 01:03:00.880
And when he had a chance to
ask his mother basic questions, he

795
01:03:00.960 --> 01:03:04.440
didn't ask them, like you know, what do you think of your son

796
01:03:04.519 --> 01:03:07.960
going to MT or you know,
anything like that. None of those questions

797
01:03:07.960 --> 01:03:12.199
ever came up. So it was
like a missed opportunity, if you ask

798
01:03:12.280 --> 01:03:16.519
me. But anyway, I like
George Knapp, I like Jeremy Corbell,

799
01:03:17.079 --> 01:03:22.719
but I don't buy Bob Lazar.
And I welcome your emails because I know

800
01:03:22.760 --> 01:03:27.480
they're going to come. Yeah,
But the genius part I think about Bob

801
01:03:27.559 --> 01:03:31.920
Blazar's story is that no one can
totally falsify it because it involves a government

802
01:03:32.199 --> 01:03:37.960
cover up. So if he says
I attended MIT and MIT says no,

803
01:03:37.039 --> 01:03:39.880
you didn't, then then you can
always say, you know, the government

804
01:03:39.880 --> 01:03:47.039
erased his records or he says they're
reverse engineering a spaceship in S four And

805
01:03:49.280 --> 01:03:51.760
if the government says no, we're
not, then you can just say,

806
01:03:51.800 --> 01:03:53.199
oh, you're lying because you don't
want us to know the truth. So

807
01:03:53.239 --> 01:03:57.880
there's there's no way to just actually
prove it wrong. And I think that's

808
01:03:57.880 --> 01:04:00.639
why it has such legs too.
You know, I have a friend that

809
01:04:00.719 --> 01:04:04.800
doesn't even pay attention to the UFO
topic at all, but he knew about

810
01:04:04.880 --> 01:04:10.199
Bob Bazaar and he got in that
very argument with me about it. You

811
01:04:10.239 --> 01:04:14.960
know, why couldn't they erase his
records? And you know, really so

812
01:04:15.320 --> 01:04:18.519
anyway, Yeah, I don't know, um, but I think that's you

813
01:04:18.519 --> 01:04:21.519
know, that's just one of those
things. It's gonna you know, two

814
01:04:21.639 --> 01:04:26.039
hundred years from now, they'll probably
still be talking about Bob Blazar stories.

815
01:04:27.239 --> 01:04:31.280
He made his mark, Yeah,
that's for sure. And as far as

816
01:04:33.159 --> 01:04:40.119
you consider like someone's either UFO believers, I'm there's a m I'm not really

817
01:04:40.159 --> 01:04:44.280
sure if that's the right term.
Would if someone asked me if I'm a

818
01:04:44.400 --> 01:04:48.639
UFO believer, because I'd say you
know their UFOs exist. I'm not sure

819
01:04:48.639 --> 01:04:53.559
what they are, so that doesn't
really make me a believer when you mean

820
01:04:54.000 --> 01:04:57.599
the topic. When you say the
word believer, you're talking about someone that

821
01:04:57.719 --> 01:05:01.880
thinks they're extra trust or is that
kind of where that that statement comes from.

822
01:05:02.559 --> 01:05:04.960
Yeah, I think mostly that's what
I mean when I say that,

823
01:05:05.280 --> 01:05:11.760
or any anyone who thinks they know
any answer for sure about the nature or

824
01:05:11.880 --> 01:05:16.360
origin of UFOs. In my mind, I call people like you who believe

825
01:05:16.679 --> 01:05:20.880
UFOs exist, or people like me
who say, you know, people see

826
01:05:21.000 --> 01:05:26.119
UFOs whatever they are. I think
of that as as a moderate, an

827
01:05:26.199 --> 01:05:31.559
interested moderate who you know, is
more compelled by trying to find the answer

828
01:05:31.800 --> 01:05:38.039
to the question that there's this like
persistent mystery that's very interesting and you want

829
01:05:38.039 --> 01:05:41.559
to get to the bottom of it, whereas someone who is a believer thinks

830
01:05:41.599 --> 01:05:45.199
they already have gotten to the bottom
of it, and so they're motivated by

831
01:05:45.360 --> 01:05:49.239
something different. Yeah, I got
it. Yeah, I mean it is

832
01:05:49.599 --> 01:05:54.000
an interesting topic. I mean I've
been doing this for coming out to nine

833
01:05:54.079 --> 01:05:58.440
years now, doing this show,
and I still love doing and it's still

834
01:05:58.679 --> 01:06:03.480
very interesting, and I actually really
enjoy talking to someone like you that has

835
01:06:03.559 --> 01:06:06.159
such an interesting take on this.
But I want to talk to you about

836
01:06:06.199 --> 01:06:12.800
the subtitle of your book, and
it's why UFO culture and why we see

837
01:06:12.800 --> 01:06:18.360
saucers? Why do we see saucers? Well, I don't exactly know,

838
01:06:18.480 --> 01:06:21.519
even though that's the title of the
book. If I exactly knew, i'd

839
01:06:21.519 --> 01:06:28.960
have to put myself in the believer
camp. But good point. Yeah,

840
01:06:29.039 --> 01:06:31.519
I mean, I think, I
mean, one answer to the question is

841
01:06:31.559 --> 01:06:36.079
that there are things that people see
in this guy that they can't explain in

842
01:06:36.159 --> 01:06:41.760
the reason that we, you know, traditionally or canonically think of them as

843
01:06:41.800 --> 01:06:45.000
flying saucers is because that's what they
were called at the beginning of this modern

844
01:06:45.039 --> 01:06:53.159
era of unidentified flying objects, and
so everything that came after there's some amount

845
01:06:53.159 --> 01:06:58.599
of imprint from that history. And
so yeah, I mean, the first

846
01:06:58.599 --> 01:07:02.559
answer is that there are strange things
that people see. Um. I think

847
01:07:02.880 --> 01:07:08.639
people also kind of want to see
strange things in the sky. I would

848
01:07:08.679 --> 01:07:12.119
love to see another thing that I
couldn't explain, for instance. Um.

849
01:07:12.519 --> 01:07:16.400
And so there's a little bit of
the like the seeking element of it,

850
01:07:17.519 --> 01:07:25.480
and then there's the you know,
classified government project element of it. We

851
01:07:25.559 --> 01:07:30.280
see things that exists in our terrestrial, but we don't know how to explain

852
01:07:30.320 --> 01:07:34.559
them because we don't have security clearances, um, although I certainly wish I

853
01:07:34.599 --> 01:07:39.360
did, and so kind of just
just all over the map. So the

854
01:07:39.400 --> 01:07:43.840
book was, at least in my
mind, every chapter kind of takes a

855
01:07:43.920 --> 01:07:48.000
look at um UFO interest from a
different from one of those different lenses,

856
01:07:48.719 --> 01:07:51.679
through the lens of history, or
through the lens of the military, or

857
01:07:51.760 --> 01:07:57.280
conspiracy, or religion, or or
some just different different take on on where

858
01:07:57.280 --> 01:08:00.880
you AFOL culture came from. When
you we're out there writing this book,

859
01:08:00.920 --> 01:08:06.840
did you speak to anyone that just
was a plain witness that somehow you stumbled

860
01:08:06.840 --> 01:08:11.199
across them and they said, hey, you know, I had a UFO

861
01:08:11.320 --> 01:08:15.119
sighting and let me tell you about
it. Did that happen, Yeah,

862
01:08:15.159 --> 01:08:19.439
it happened quite a bit. And
so the people I mos who mostly appear

863
01:08:19.640 --> 01:08:26.439
in the book are names who are
probably familiar to a lot of your audience,

864
01:08:26.479 --> 01:08:31.119
who are UFO ploggers or prominent figures
at Moufon or things like that.

865
01:08:31.159 --> 01:08:35.479
But what was actually most interesting to
me was when I would tell people I

866
01:08:35.560 --> 01:08:41.439
knew that I was working on this
book, either scientists, you know who

867
01:08:41.520 --> 01:08:46.560
I was interviewing for other articles or
just friends, and to find out how

868
01:08:46.560 --> 01:08:51.439
many people I knew had had a
sighting. I didn't meet anyone who was

869
01:08:51.479 --> 01:08:56.520
like, yes, something hovered,
hovered up above me and I saw an

870
01:08:56.560 --> 01:09:00.000
alien pilot and a bunch of you
know, led lights around the outside.

871
01:09:00.079 --> 01:09:02.159
But a lot of people who just
you know, saw a strange light that

872
01:09:02.199 --> 01:09:09.680
they couldn't explain and never forgot it. And pretty much any time I brought

873
01:09:09.720 --> 01:09:13.920
the book up in a group of
five or six people, there would be

874
01:09:14.279 --> 01:09:17.159
somebody who I knew who had had
an experience who had never told me about

875
01:09:17.199 --> 01:09:21.640
it before, just because it's something
a lot of people don't talk about.

876
01:09:23.319 --> 01:09:26.800
I think, Yeah, you know, when you're out there and you're talking

877
01:09:26.800 --> 01:09:30.600
to people, you'll find that there
are so many people that had, you

878
01:09:30.640 --> 01:09:35.199
know, a siting, or if
not them, their brother or you know.

879
01:09:36.000 --> 01:09:41.199
I've told this story before I was
in I was working cataloging. I

880
01:09:41.279 --> 01:09:44.479
do fine arts and the antiques,
and I was cataloging in an auction gallery

881
01:09:45.119 --> 01:09:49.239
and the secretary of the auction gallery
I told her she said something, she

882
01:09:49.319 --> 01:09:54.199
was looking for something information and I
said, well, go to my website.

883
01:09:54.279 --> 01:09:58.680
And what I meant was my appraisal
website and she found my UFO website

884
01:09:59.479 --> 01:10:00.840
was all, my god, let
me tell you about my story. And

885
01:10:00.920 --> 01:10:05.760
she had this triangle UM hover over
her car and she was with her aunt

886
01:10:05.760 --> 01:10:10.039
and her mother, and she got
out of the car and she said it

887
01:10:10.079 --> 01:10:12.880
was just dad, silent, right
over the top of the car, and

888
01:10:12.920 --> 01:10:15.880
then all of a sudden it just
shot off, you know, and that

889
01:10:15.880 --> 01:10:20.039
that I love those stories because it's
someone that you know, moves on with

890
01:10:20.039 --> 01:10:24.319
her life and is not, you
know, involved in the UFO community,

891
01:10:24.319 --> 01:10:30.119
except they had the experience and you
know what was it? Yeah? Yeah,

892
01:10:30.159 --> 01:10:34.000
And I think I think the latest
poll the latest UM I can't remember

893
01:10:34.000 --> 01:10:36.680
if it's a pew pollar, a
gallop pull, but it is something like

894
01:10:36.720 --> 01:10:44.039
one in six people have seen a
UFO. Yeah, yeah. And you

895
01:10:44.079 --> 01:10:46.159
know, whether it can be explained
or not, you know, that's that's

896
01:10:46.159 --> 01:10:50.079
always a tricky part. And you
know there are people that really do try

897
01:10:50.119 --> 01:10:55.239
to figure all that stuff out.
You know, it's one of those things,

898
01:10:55.279 --> 01:10:59.760
guilty to proven innocent, that type
of thing. What do you think

899
01:10:59.840 --> 01:11:06.439
is the most interesting of all the
UFO encounters that you looked into. M

900
01:11:09.520 --> 01:11:21.119
That's a good and hard question.
M. I mean, I don't hold

901
01:11:21.159 --> 01:11:29.079
any conspiratorial opinions about Roswell, but
I went into the book not knowing very

902
01:11:29.159 --> 01:11:32.439
much about the history of it,
and I find it. I find the

903
01:11:32.520 --> 01:11:38.600
back and forth on it very interesting. You know, there was this crash,

904
01:11:38.600 --> 01:11:42.760
A rancher found it, a press
release from the military saying it was

905
01:11:42.800 --> 01:11:47.520
a flying saucer, a walking back
of that, and then this whole story

906
01:11:47.560 --> 01:11:53.119
about it emerged decades later after it
it kind of disappeared, and I find

907
01:11:53.720 --> 01:11:58.960
that really fascinating, the enduring nature
of that, how something can just disappear

908
01:11:59.520 --> 01:12:03.640
and be resurrected based on um,
you know, witness accounts and even in

909
01:12:03.680 --> 01:12:10.880
the face of however many hundreds of
pages that Roswell Report document is that I

910
01:12:10.920 --> 01:12:15.000
read and never want to read again. Um just um, yeah, that

911
01:12:15.000 --> 01:12:19.960
that that's something that you know,
that's something verifiable that that happened. And

912
01:12:20.039 --> 01:12:24.479
I don't happen to think that it
was a crash of an alien spaceship,

913
01:12:24.960 --> 01:12:29.079
but um, it is something.
We have debris for it. That's like

914
01:12:29.079 --> 01:12:32.960
a concrete moment in history that changed
UFO culture forever. And so for that

915
01:12:33.000 --> 01:12:36.600
reason, I think that's interesting.
Yeah, And to me, before this

916
01:12:36.640 --> 01:12:40.560
book, it was just you know, Roswell the Alien Place, and that's

917
01:12:40.680 --> 01:12:44.840
literally all I knew about it before
I started. Yeah. Yeah. One

918
01:12:44.840 --> 01:12:47.960
of the things that's really interesting that
Stanton Friedman used to bring up a lot

919
01:12:48.119 --> 01:12:53.640
is that, you know, the
government lied five times. I think he

920
01:12:53.720 --> 01:12:57.840
said, he used to say either
four or five times where they've changed their

921
01:12:57.880 --> 01:13:03.920
story completely and so many different um, you know, that is really fishy,

922
01:13:04.239 --> 01:13:11.560
especially you know the one in the
nineteen nineties when they said that those

923
01:13:11.680 --> 01:13:15.560
beings that were found were crash test
dummies, which of course did not get

924
01:13:15.640 --> 01:13:19.319
used until nineteen fifty two. Night
they were not in use in nineteen forty

925
01:13:19.319 --> 01:13:24.600
seven, So that was the last
known lie that I've heard about it,

926
01:13:25.199 --> 01:13:30.800
you know. Yeah, I mean
I think and Yeah, another big conclusion

927
01:13:30.840 --> 01:13:33.000
that I came out of all the
research with is there's there's like a real

928
01:13:33.079 --> 01:13:40.640
and legitimate reason why people doubt the
governments or the military and intelligence community story

929
01:13:40.880 --> 01:13:45.600
on UFOs and their interest in UFOs
and everything like that is because there there

930
01:13:45.640 --> 01:13:49.359
are a lot of instances, which
I know I already mentioned John Greenwald's book,

931
01:13:49.600 --> 01:13:56.479
but a lot of like very hard, hard nosed instances what we can

932
01:13:56.520 --> 01:14:02.359
see, um officials not being honest
or reversing the story and changing it.

933
01:14:02.399 --> 01:14:06.720
And we can see that with with
a tip also right now, right,

934
01:14:08.359 --> 01:14:14.039
yeah, you under you understand why
conspiracies start is because there are conspiracies at

935
01:14:14.079 --> 01:14:18.239
some level. Yep. And I
think I think Area fifty one may work

936
01:14:18.319 --> 01:14:24.439
well as a conspiracy because it is
you know, for one thing, it's

937
01:14:24.600 --> 01:14:29.600
you know, going back to that, it's highly secret, and anytime anything's

938
01:14:29.640 --> 01:14:34.760
highly secret, conspiracies kind of grow
on their own. But I think I

939
01:14:34.760 --> 01:14:41.199
don't think they mind that because um
that you know, when they're doing work

940
01:14:41.199 --> 01:14:45.760
on experimental craft that may act like
nothing we've ever seen. You know,

941
01:14:45.880 --> 01:14:51.239
then it'll get pushed off as you
know, alien technology and you know the

942
01:14:51.279 --> 01:14:55.159
Russia won't even care about it,
you know that type of thing. Yeah.

943
01:14:55.279 --> 01:15:00.000
So no, it's good cover.
Yeah, it's good cover. Yeah.

944
01:15:00.079 --> 01:15:06.760
Um. And as far as uphology
goes, do you think that um,

945
01:15:08.079 --> 01:15:12.039
as far as someone that is just
getting into this topic like you did

946
01:15:12.079 --> 01:15:15.880
not that many years ago, Um, where do you think a good place

947
01:15:15.079 --> 01:15:18.439
for someone that is just starting to
learn all this? Because I say this

948
01:15:18.520 --> 01:15:24.359
on every show I have a lot
of new people to this topic. Where

949
01:15:24.399 --> 01:15:30.720
would you say is a good safe
place to look. That is a that

950
01:15:30.880 --> 01:15:36.600
is a hard question. Not YouTube, so not you definitely not YouTube.

951
01:15:38.199 --> 01:15:44.880
Not read it. Yeah that's true. Uh, let's see for for a

952
01:15:45.039 --> 01:15:48.479
background. I really enjoyed. I
don't know how many people want to read

953
01:15:48.760 --> 01:15:54.439
a master's thesis, but there's a
very good master's thesis by a person who

954
01:15:54.560 --> 01:15:59.479
used to work at NASA named Diana
Palmer hoyt Um. And it's interesting because

955
01:15:59.479 --> 01:16:01.279
she used to, you know,
work work for the man at NASA.

956
01:16:01.479 --> 01:16:06.600
But it is a very good summary
of the history of official research programs and

957
01:16:06.680 --> 01:16:13.199
also the way that um, you
know, traditional scientists interact with upology.

958
01:16:13.279 --> 01:16:16.319
So I feel like it's a good
way to get get grounded um in the

959
01:16:16.439 --> 01:16:21.520
history and then also with the place
in science. And it's called UFO critique

960
01:16:21.880 --> 01:16:28.880
UM. And I think I think
she comes out it really fairly UM and

961
01:16:29.680 --> 01:16:32.239
UM yeah, it takes it takes
a good critical look. UM. When

962
01:16:32.239 --> 01:16:35.600
I was getting started, I read
I read the books by um the people

963
01:16:35.720 --> 01:16:42.640
used to run government programs, like
like Jail and Heinek and um the public

964
01:16:42.680 --> 01:16:46.159
books that came out after the programs. But UM, yeah, mostly stay

965
01:16:46.159 --> 01:16:51.119
away from the internet, I think. But where would you recommend oh,

966
01:16:51.159 --> 01:16:58.359
oh, now you're gonna turn around
me. RuPaul wrote a book that is

967
01:16:58.439 --> 01:17:00.159
a go to book. I don't
have it, and I mean have it

968
01:17:00.159 --> 01:17:03.720
over there somewhere in the bookshelf.
But I know that's a very very good

969
01:17:03.720 --> 01:17:08.039
book for someone that is just getting
started. And I you know, I

970
01:17:08.439 --> 01:17:11.840
do recommend that, and um,
you know books, Um, you know,

971
01:17:11.920 --> 01:17:15.279
books can be really good. You
know, the older books, a

972
01:17:15.359 --> 01:17:20.159
lot of them aren't have a lot
of really good, um information in them,

973
01:17:20.199 --> 01:17:24.359
and so I would recommend that.
And J. L. Hinek I've

974
01:17:24.399 --> 01:17:28.079
never read anything of his, but
I'm sure that it's it's fascinating. He

975
01:17:28.119 --> 01:17:32.000
was a fascinating man. And the
whole thing, I mean, what do

976
01:17:32.039 --> 01:17:36.760
you think about his situation where here
he is working for um, you know,

977
01:17:36.960 --> 01:17:41.520
the Air Force, and then he
takes the turn where he goes,

978
01:17:41.520 --> 01:17:45.000
well, there really is something to
this that's pretty interesting, isn't it is?

979
01:17:45.119 --> 01:17:51.760
It is very interesting? Yeah?
Yeah, and um, I yeah,

980
01:17:51.800 --> 01:17:55.399
I wish I could talk to him. I don't know exactly what to

981
01:17:55.439 --> 01:17:58.720
make of it, but I mean
it makes it makes sense that if you

982
01:17:58.800 --> 01:18:04.880
were just constantly bombarded by witness accounts
from credible people and you couldn't solve all

983
01:18:04.880 --> 01:18:09.199
of them. And also the people
above you were encouraging you to just explain

984
01:18:09.279 --> 01:18:14.960
them away that that would turn Churney
toward them, toward towards the side of

985
01:18:14.960 --> 01:18:20.239
believing that there was something to all
this. There was the famous swamp gas

986
01:18:21.600 --> 01:18:27.079
should find that on YouTube where he
talks about swamp gas and how it reacts

987
01:18:27.079 --> 01:18:30.439
and all that, and that was
one of the things that he was explaining

988
01:18:30.439 --> 01:18:33.399
away that he gets so much grief
about and one of the reasons why he

989
01:18:33.479 --> 01:18:42.359
kind of went the other way to
his son. So but anyway, Yeah,

990
01:18:42.399 --> 01:18:45.920
Paul hi Nick and Joel hi Nick
were on this show both and every

991
01:18:45.920 --> 01:18:48.319
once in a while, I'll talk
with Polly's a great guy and a lot

992
01:18:48.319 --> 01:18:53.640
of fun and I hope to get
him back on this show again. As

993
01:18:53.680 --> 01:18:58.000
far as you did a book with
Jill Charter or was it about Jill Charter?

994
01:18:58.079 --> 01:19:00.039
I saw she was in the title. Yeah, it was about Jill

995
01:19:00.039 --> 01:19:03.279
Tarter. It was about Jill Tarter. Yeah, it was a biography of

996
01:19:03.319 --> 01:19:05.960
Jill Tarter. I see that,
Oh, I see, I see.

997
01:19:06.760 --> 01:19:14.960
She's an interesting woman. And and
also at the SETI is she still at

998
01:19:15.000 --> 01:19:18.760
the setting now? She has retired, but she's still on the board and

999
01:19:19.319 --> 01:19:23.239
at least last I checked and she
was still going into the office a bunch.

1000
01:19:25.079 --> 01:19:27.279
I did invite her on this show, I don't know, two or

1001
01:19:27.319 --> 01:19:30.680
three years ago, and she said, no, Steth will be glad to

1002
01:19:30.760 --> 01:19:35.000
join you, and he did.
Yeah. Yeah, she's mostly handed the

1003
01:19:35.119 --> 01:19:39.560
hand of the reins to him on
the UFO topic. But yeah, yeah,

1004
01:19:39.840 --> 01:19:45.520
and you know his his I want
to say, closed mindedness on the

1005
01:19:45.640 --> 01:19:49.640
UFO topic. It must also be
kind of interesting to you. I don't

1006
01:19:49.680 --> 01:19:54.359
know if you've paid attention to what
he says about UFOs or not, have

1007
01:19:54.479 --> 01:19:58.920
you. I haven't seen the latest. I've heard a few interviews with him

1008
01:19:58.960 --> 01:20:02.600
where he does talk about it,
But um, what what is his stance

1009
01:20:02.680 --> 01:20:06.119
these days? Um? He basically
says that he needs like the whole wing

1010
01:20:06.239 --> 01:20:12.239
of the Smithsonian Museum to be full
of UFO debris before he'll believe in them,

1011
01:20:13.279 --> 01:20:15.600
believe that they're here. I don't
think that's ever I don't think that's

1012
01:20:15.600 --> 01:20:21.159
ever going to happen. Um.
But he's pretty close minded to the idea

1013
01:20:21.239 --> 01:20:28.680
that it's a possibility, um,
that that we've um are visited. And

1014
01:20:28.840 --> 01:20:32.600
you know, I basically confronted him, I would understand that because you wouldn't

1015
01:20:32.600 --> 01:20:35.560
get any funding if they were here, you know, that type of you

1016
01:20:35.600 --> 01:20:39.760
know back and forth we had.
That's fair. Yeah, yeah, no,

1017
01:20:40.039 --> 01:20:44.159
UM. It's interesting. I'm not
remembering the author of the paper,

1018
01:20:44.239 --> 01:20:49.800
but there is a very good an
anthropology or sociology paper about UM. A

1019
01:20:49.920 --> 01:20:55.960
concept called boundary work in science,
which is where scientists have to erect these

1020
01:20:56.000 --> 01:21:00.319
borders around what's what's proper science and
what's not. And that is that that

1021
01:21:00.439 --> 01:21:06.560
sometimes keeps out UM keeps out things
in a way that is not actually scientific,

1022
01:21:06.640 --> 01:21:11.800
like closing yourself off totally to the
possibility that we are being visited on

1023
01:21:12.680 --> 01:21:17.359
no U is actually just as unscientific
as saying I know for sure that we

1024
01:21:17.399 --> 01:21:27.840
are being visited. Like to dismiss
things or things like taking evidence of or

1025
01:21:28.079 --> 01:21:32.199
sorry, what is it absence of
evidence as evidence of absence m yeah,

1026
01:21:32.239 --> 01:21:36.800
yeah, And and things like that
just logical fallacies that scientists wouldn't make if

1027
01:21:36.800 --> 01:21:42.800
they were talking about their own fields
that they do make to dismiss uphology,

1028
01:21:43.520 --> 01:21:46.840
that's right. And you know I
mentioned to Seth, you know, well

1029
01:21:46.880 --> 01:21:50.239
what about you know, dark matter
and dark energy? You know, we

1030
01:21:50.439 --> 01:21:53.920
there's nothing we can hold in our
hands, and he said, you know,

1031
01:21:53.960 --> 01:21:57.760
there's plenty of evidence for them out
there, but I still think that

1032
01:21:57.840 --> 01:22:01.479
we don't really know what it is
and um or we may it may be

1033
01:22:01.560 --> 01:22:05.000
something totally different than what they're expecting
it to be. I don't know,

1034
01:22:05.920 --> 01:22:10.319
but I forget what the percentages,
but it's really really high of what's supposed

1035
01:22:10.319 --> 01:22:14.520
to be out there. Is dark
matter, Yeah, it's yeah, I

1036
01:22:14.520 --> 01:22:16.960
don't remember the exact percentage either,
but I mean it's more than ninety percent

1037
01:22:17.039 --> 01:22:23.640
that's dark matter and dark energy,
so which is really hard to explain.

1038
01:22:25.920 --> 01:22:30.920
No, I mean, I think
I think science is probably I don't know

1039
01:22:30.960 --> 01:22:32.760
that it's wrong about those things,
but I'm sure there's lots of stuff that

1040
01:22:32.800 --> 01:22:35.479
we think is true right now or
that we're about to get to the bottom

1041
01:22:35.520 --> 01:22:39.680
of that we're just not not correct
about it all. Just like we've always

1042
01:22:39.680 --> 01:22:43.439
thought throughout history that we were on
the cusp of understanding lots of things and

1043
01:22:43.560 --> 01:22:47.079
there's always been more to discover.
So now that's true in astronomy, right

1044
01:22:47.359 --> 01:22:53.159
right. Did you any any part
of your book goes into like the pop

1045
01:22:53.239 --> 01:23:00.359
culture aspect of you know, influence
of UFOs or why why people might be

1046
01:23:00.359 --> 01:23:04.760
seeing them UM a bit kind of
mixed in, mixed in here and there

1047
01:23:05.119 --> 01:23:14.720
UM. And I think the times
it comes up biggest UM are in talking

1048
01:23:14.760 --> 01:23:19.760
about setting setting expectations and people having
expectations or ideas about what it is they're

1049
01:23:19.800 --> 01:23:25.359
seeing or talking about. Like when
I went out to Area fifty one,

1050
01:23:25.520 --> 01:23:30.119
the guy who lives there, um
not in Area fifty one but in Rachel,

1051
01:23:30.319 --> 01:23:34.520
Nevada. His name is yorg Arnum
talk to us about how, you

1052
01:23:34.600 --> 01:23:40.479
know, movies give people the idea
of what a UFO looks like and what

1053
01:23:40.520 --> 01:23:44.439
it is they're seeing, and then
also that it is Aliens. So every

1054
01:23:44.479 --> 01:23:46.359
time there's a UFO in a movie, it is Aliens. And so that

1055
01:23:46.479 --> 01:23:51.359
kind of sets us up for this
X like it's they're they're basically synonymous to

1056
01:23:51.399 --> 01:23:56.800
the average person, not to a
moderate ufologist, but to the average person

1057
01:23:57.279 --> 01:24:00.239
walking around, the two are exactly
the same thing. And I think that's

1058
01:24:00.239 --> 01:24:03.800
the biggest legacy of pop culture.
Yeah, yeah, I think it's it's

1059
01:24:04.119 --> 01:24:09.000
it really is too bad, And
the reason why a lot of people are

1060
01:24:09.119 --> 01:24:13.479
uncomfortable with using the term UFO,
they want to use UAP or something like

1061
01:24:13.520 --> 01:24:18.039
that because of kind of the association
that people have, you know, with

1062
01:24:18.079 --> 01:24:26.039
the two. Now I'm opening up
the phone lines and the south the line

1063
01:24:26.159 --> 01:24:30.359
is available and that number is eight
five five four seven two five four eight

1064
01:24:30.560 --> 01:24:32.840
three, And we have a screener. Bill will be screening the phones tonight.

1065
01:24:33.680 --> 01:24:39.840
So again that's eight five five four
seven two five four eight three.

1066
01:24:41.960 --> 01:24:48.520
And where was I going with that
up versus UF? Yeah? Yeah,

1067
01:24:49.079 --> 01:24:56.920
so I think you know, it's
really hard to kind of separate the two

1068
01:24:57.119 --> 01:25:00.359
because of what you were saying.
But if you have to speculate again,

1069
01:25:00.399 --> 01:25:04.319
I'm not sure if you're a speculator, Um, what do you think the

1070
01:25:04.399 --> 01:25:12.000
possibilities are of the unexplained? You
you mentioned that there's you know, uh,

1071
01:25:12.159 --> 01:25:15.479
usually things can be explained in your
opinion, but you know, what

1072
01:25:15.520 --> 01:25:21.640
do you think the possibilities of the
unexplained could be? Um? You mean

1073
01:25:21.720 --> 01:25:29.000
what what they could be explained as? Yeah? Um, yeah, that's

1074
01:25:29.039 --> 01:25:31.800
a good question. Um. Yes, since I'm not much of a speculator,

1075
01:25:31.840 --> 01:25:35.000
so with the caveat that, I
have no idea, um, but

1076
01:25:35.239 --> 01:25:43.319
I sure officially, UM, I
mean there is the option that I also

1077
01:25:43.359 --> 01:25:45.800
I'm sorry, my dog is to
making weird noises behind me, but I

1078
01:25:45.920 --> 01:25:56.159
love uh, you know a classified
project of are of the US or some

1079
01:25:56.399 --> 01:26:01.199
other country. UM and UM.
I mean I think historically that's been the

1080
01:26:01.239 --> 01:26:06.319
case for at least for at least
some amount of truly strange UFOs Um people

1081
01:26:06.359 --> 01:26:13.359
talk about strange atmospheric phenomena. Although
that's that's a little like swamp gas um

1082
01:26:14.239 --> 01:26:20.319
and UM. I mean then there's
there there are misidentified very normal things like

1083
01:26:20.840 --> 01:26:24.800
um, you know, seeing seeing
a plane at a weird angle or a

1084
01:26:24.800 --> 01:26:29.439
bunch of planes coming at the same
angle. UM And then I mean,

1085
01:26:29.520 --> 01:26:32.880
I I am not, says Shastak. And so I wouldn't. I don't

1086
01:26:32.920 --> 01:26:40.039
completely rule out the extraterrestrial hypothesis.
I I when I started the book,

1087
01:26:40.079 --> 01:26:44.600
I would have um ruled that out
one hundred percent. And now I would

1088
01:26:44.600 --> 01:26:50.920
say that I only UM, I
think it's ninety nine point nine not um

1089
01:26:51.119 --> 01:26:57.279
the case. But there I don't
know, and it's a possibility. And

1090
01:26:57.399 --> 01:27:00.399
if you had to, if you
had to argue against that, they could

1091
01:27:00.439 --> 01:27:05.520
be extraterrestrial in and I again,
I don't say that they are because I

1092
01:27:05.560 --> 01:27:11.600
have no idea what they are,
what's piloting whatever it is that seems to

1093
01:27:11.640 --> 01:27:19.199
be piloted um um. So you
know what if you had to, I

1094
01:27:19.239 --> 01:27:26.279
forget where I was actually going with
this. So if you, um,

1095
01:27:26.840 --> 01:27:33.560
if you take away that they're extraterrestrial, um, other other thoughts that you

1096
01:27:33.560 --> 01:27:36.079
know you have thought about, you
know, I mean some people are thinking

1097
01:27:36.119 --> 01:27:41.840
they're possibly from another dimension because of
their weird acting, you know, coming

1098
01:27:41.880 --> 01:27:45.159
in and out of sight and things
like that, and then some people think

1099
01:27:45.199 --> 01:27:49.680
they might be time travelers. Um. Have you looked into all those thoughts?

1100
01:27:51.079 --> 01:27:55.800
Um? I know those thoughts are
out there, I haven't deeply looked

1101
01:27:55.800 --> 01:28:00.000
into them myself, and I think
for me just started thinking about those a

1102
01:28:00.000 --> 01:28:06.119
lot, I would have to.
I think that physicists would have to come

1103
01:28:06.199 --> 01:28:13.520
up with series that would, you
know, explain how that could be possible,

1104
01:28:13.840 --> 01:28:16.520
which which is a flawed argument because
it can be possible whether physicists know

1105
01:28:16.600 --> 01:28:20.720
that it is or not. But
but for me to really be thinking about

1106
01:28:20.760 --> 01:28:25.399
them, I feel like I would
need some kind of theoretical framework for how

1107
01:28:25.439 --> 01:28:30.439
it would work beyond just an idea. Well, that's that's good. Um.

1108
01:28:30.479 --> 01:28:33.239
We have Scott Scott's on the line
from Montana. Scott, welcome to

1109
01:28:33.279 --> 01:28:44.359
the show. Thank you, Martin. Are you underwater? Sorry? The

1110
01:28:44.439 --> 01:28:49.239
phone's very very garbly. Uh,
go ahead, fire off a question.

1111
01:28:51.319 --> 01:28:58.119
Okay, it's about Roswell. I'm
curious if, if if she has seen

1112
01:28:59.359 --> 01:29:06.199
the Archives where Stanton Freeman interviews Gerald
Anderson, who was there with his dad

1113
01:29:06.239 --> 01:29:12.439
and his uncle when he was six, saw the saw the broken up saucer,

1114
01:29:12.479 --> 01:29:15.399
and saw the He said, there
are four aliens who are dead,

1115
01:29:15.560 --> 01:29:19.079
what was wounded, and one seemed
to be Okay, they're about four foot

1116
01:29:19.119 --> 01:29:25.199
tall, but he was there.
He's pretty convincing. He was interviewed in

1117
01:29:25.279 --> 01:29:32.800
nineteen ninety one. I haven't I
haven't read that that one, um,

1118
01:29:32.840 --> 01:29:36.600
but I will welcok, you do
it on YouTube? Oh sorry, a

1119
01:29:36.720 --> 01:29:41.199
video? Okay, Well, then
I will watch a couple of mount for

1120
01:29:41.279 --> 01:29:46.159
the National Archives. The interview,
the the uh when he got to what

1121
01:29:46.239 --> 01:29:51.239
he called those guys, the the
guy that brought the coffins, you ran

1122
01:29:51.359 --> 01:29:59.359
the uh ran the yet Yeah,
yeah, Scott, I hate I hate

1123
01:29:59.399 --> 01:30:01.000
to do this too, but we
have a really really bad connection. So

1124
01:30:01.680 --> 01:30:06.439
um, but thank you for your
call. Thank you Morton, thank you.

1125
01:30:06.520 --> 01:30:11.359
All right, I'm not sure what's
going on. Hopefully that won't happen

1126
01:30:11.439 --> 01:30:15.359
with the next callar, but that
line is open and it's uh eight five

1127
01:30:15.439 --> 01:30:20.439
five four seven two five four eight
three. And uh yeah, Boswell is

1128
01:30:20.479 --> 01:30:24.239
one of those things that you know
you were talking about earlier, but it

1129
01:30:24.680 --> 01:30:30.079
just keeps It's like the Energizer Bunny, it just keeps going. And I

1130
01:30:30.159 --> 01:30:35.079
don't know if you've ever heard about
the Roswell Festival. Yeah, I went

1131
01:30:35.199 --> 01:30:40.079
there the Yeah, I went there. Yeah, that must have been an

1132
01:30:40.119 --> 01:30:44.199
experience. I've never been. Oh
you should go once once we're allowed to

1133
01:30:44.279 --> 01:30:47.119
gather again. Yeah, that's right. Yeah, yeah, but it's a

1134
01:30:47.199 --> 01:30:51.159
lot of craziness there, true,
right, Yeah, definitely, there is

1135
01:30:51.159 --> 01:30:55.760
a lot of craziness out on the
main street. But I think the secret

1136
01:30:55.880 --> 01:30:59.800
is the serious talks are upstairs and
the museum going on at the same time.

1137
01:30:59.840 --> 01:31:03.479
So yeah, yeah, yeah,
yeah, And no, I have

1138
01:31:03.680 --> 01:31:06.760
never I have never gone to that. I hope too someday, like you

1139
01:31:06.840 --> 01:31:10.720
said, when things change and we
can actually do stuff like that, that

1140
01:31:10.840 --> 01:31:15.760
line is open again. Sorry eight
five five four seven two five four eight

1141
01:31:15.920 --> 01:31:24.680
three. And when you were researching
this book, did you go at all

1142
01:31:24.800 --> 01:31:30.079
into people that are claiming to be
abducted. I did not, really.

1143
01:31:30.279 --> 01:31:34.720
I did a lot of reading about
it, but in the end I decided

1144
01:31:34.880 --> 01:31:40.960
and Originally I had planned to do
a chapter about it, but I thought

1145
01:31:41.439 --> 01:31:44.439
it was very important to me when
I was working on this book not to

1146
01:31:44.600 --> 01:31:48.039
come into it in a way where
I was like making fun of anyone's experiences

1147
01:31:48.279 --> 01:31:53.720
or beliefs, are taking advantage of
them in any way. And I didn't

1148
01:31:54.079 --> 01:31:59.960
feel confident that I could present an
abduction story in a way that was respective

1149
01:32:00.279 --> 01:32:02.560
to someone, whether it was a
traumatic experience or a cool experience. And

1150
01:32:02.640 --> 01:32:06.279
so in the end I decided to, um leave it out. Yeah.

1151
01:32:08.000 --> 01:32:10.840
Yeah, I had said many times
that I was on the fence about,

1152
01:32:11.680 --> 01:32:14.680
um, you know, all these
abductions that are happening, but there are

1153
01:32:14.720 --> 01:32:18.399
some that are just pretty darn convincing, that are really really interesting. You

1154
01:32:18.479 --> 01:32:24.760
know, the Travis Walton case,
Betty and Barney Hill, um and my

1155
01:32:24.920 --> 01:32:30.960
friend down in uh in the South
Pascagoula incident. Um, you know,

1156
01:32:30.039 --> 01:32:33.439
there's just some that are just in
the Alagash incident, that's another one that

1157
01:32:33.640 --> 01:32:40.000
is really fascinating. So there's some
that are just uh, really really interesting,

1158
01:32:40.720 --> 01:32:45.159
and UM, I can't discount I
can't discount them. Um. I

1159
01:32:45.359 --> 01:32:48.680
have all often wondered if people are
you know, all these people are being

1160
01:32:48.760 --> 01:32:53.800
abducted. You know, that's that's
a that's a tough one. It's it's

1161
01:32:53.840 --> 01:32:59.000
hard to understand why this would be
happening, um. And you know,

1162
01:32:59.119 --> 01:33:05.520
then I speak to someone, for
instance, in Switzerland and they don't have

1163
01:33:05.600 --> 01:33:11.079
any reports of them at all.
You know, it's really strange, um.

1164
01:33:11.520 --> 01:33:13.600
You know. And I don't want
to say it's a cultural thing.

1165
01:33:13.680 --> 01:33:17.079
I don't know. I don't know
what it is. But some people will

1166
01:33:17.279 --> 01:33:21.000
will debate that, saying that the
army made a deal with them, with

1167
01:33:21.159 --> 01:33:28.800
the aliens. That yeah, with
Eisenhower. Eisenhower another another one of those

1168
01:33:28.840 --> 01:33:31.920
things you can't prove wrong, that's
true. But yeah, no, I

1169
01:33:32.199 --> 01:33:38.359
I really enjoyed reading the book Close
Encounters of the Fourth Kind about the conference

1170
01:33:38.399 --> 01:33:45.680
that was held at Harvard in um
I think the nineties to um to understand

1171
01:33:45.760 --> 01:33:49.520
what was going on with with this
and brought a bunch of abductees together with

1172
01:33:49.720 --> 01:33:55.439
researchers at Harvard. And yeah,
I would be interested if someone would do

1173
01:33:55.560 --> 01:33:59.600
that again. One of the one
of the most I think one of the

1174
01:33:59.640 --> 01:34:03.920
most amazing encounters of them all is
the Ariel's School in South Africa. I

1175
01:34:03.960 --> 01:34:08.920
don't know if you've looked into that
with the sixty two school children. Yeah,

1176
01:34:09.039 --> 01:34:12.720
just a little bit. I'm not
overly familiar. But well, when

1177
01:34:12.760 --> 01:34:15.720
you talk about Harvard, there was
John mckinvaulved with interviewing those children right after,

1178
01:34:15.840 --> 01:34:21.920
which is fascinating. Randy Nickerson has
put together that film called The Ariel

1179
01:34:23.000 --> 01:34:27.960
Phenomenon that it's coming out this year. We were talking the other day and

1180
01:34:28.199 --> 01:34:30.520
he's not sure what he's going to
do with that. It was going to

1181
01:34:30.600 --> 01:34:33.760
be a theatrical release. Now it
doesn't look like that's going to happen,

1182
01:34:34.239 --> 01:34:36.680
but I said, hey, look
you have a captive audience. Get it

1183
01:34:36.760 --> 01:34:43.199
out soon again. But so that
is going to be a movie worth watching

1184
01:34:43.359 --> 01:34:46.640
when that is done. He spent
nine years putting that movie together and he

1185
01:34:47.039 --> 01:34:49.680
is very, very fussy. It's
going to be a great, a great

1186
01:34:49.720 --> 01:34:56.680
movie. We have someone I believe
I've talked to him before, Steve from

1187
01:34:56.760 --> 01:35:01.279
Oregon. Welcome to the show.
Stephen, Hi, guys, I hike

1188
01:35:01.359 --> 01:35:08.960
Sarah. Really great show, really
interesting guests. It's refreshing to hear somebody

1189
01:35:10.000 --> 01:35:16.640
who has, you know, what
I consider common sense reservations when it comes

1190
01:35:16.680 --> 01:35:21.680
to upology and with the whole New
York Times story and you know, I

1191
01:35:21.760 --> 01:35:27.439
think the pilots are very compelling,
the videos are very compelling, but the

1192
01:35:27.560 --> 01:35:31.119
whole tps A thing, it kind
of gets sideways in it. I like

1193
01:35:31.279 --> 01:35:36.800
the way to kind of characterize it
as a look like a PR, a

1194
01:35:36.880 --> 01:35:42.479
coordinated PR event, and I think
there's a lot of truth to that.

1195
01:35:43.239 --> 01:35:50.680
Also. I like your skepticism on
Bob LAZARUM. My questions are, so

1196
01:35:50.920 --> 01:35:55.960
you seem like you're real well read
on this and you're interested in this,

1197
01:35:56.279 --> 01:35:59.439
but you kind of sit, you
know, slightly on the edge. You're

1198
01:35:59.520 --> 01:36:01.800
kind of like me. I like
the word you use, agnostic. And

1199
01:36:02.359 --> 01:36:08.119
so how do you follow what are
your sources for news? Um? And

1200
01:36:08.279 --> 01:36:14.840
how do you follow the topic?
H yeah, UM, that's a that's

1201
01:36:14.840 --> 01:36:16.600
a good question. I think it's
it's hard, like we were talking about

1202
01:36:16.640 --> 01:36:23.199
earlier, especially finding credible sources,
but especially since I've been interested not just

1203
01:36:23.479 --> 01:36:28.600
in you know, what's what's a
UFO, but in what the research community

1204
01:36:28.720 --> 01:36:33.600
is doing. I UM, I
lark on Facebook forums like UFO updates,

1205
01:36:34.000 --> 01:36:41.960
UM, in the the UFOs reddit, and then um for following a tip

1206
01:36:42.199 --> 01:36:45.359
and that whole saga. I actually
just have a Google alert for that,

1207
01:36:45.600 --> 01:36:49.560
so Google sends me every news source
that comes up on that, so I

1208
01:36:49.600 --> 01:36:55.319
can keep up with all of the
the updates, and then UM, I

1209
01:36:56.920 --> 01:37:03.560
look to uh UF for bloggers like
uh Jeff Brewer, Kirk Collins, who

1210
01:37:03.640 --> 01:37:10.720
I think you just had on the
show, UM, Keith Bastfield, Roger

1211
01:37:11.000 --> 01:37:14.840
Glassell, and I just kind of
have a collection of blogs who's whose updates

1212
01:37:14.880 --> 01:37:20.199
I follow, So I've kind of
tried to tried to find who whose idea

1213
01:37:20.319 --> 01:37:24.279
is kind of aligned with mine,
and then of course some some that don't

1214
01:37:24.359 --> 01:37:28.880
and keep keep track of it.
I would like to suggest just them to

1215
01:37:28.960 --> 01:37:31.640
could jump in just a second.
I'd like to suggest Kevin Randall's blog.

1216
01:37:32.000 --> 01:37:35.079
He's very very well balanced, very
good. I don't know if you've ever

1217
01:37:35.159 --> 01:37:39.920
read any of his stories. Yeah, all right, are you have another

1218
01:37:40.000 --> 01:37:45.279
question, Stephen? That's real quick. So there's a couple of stories UFO

1219
01:37:45.840 --> 01:37:50.960
events that have been like super credible, like the flight out of Alaska where

1220
01:37:51.039 --> 01:37:58.880
they captured the radar data and they
captured air traffic control from two different towers,

1221
01:37:58.960 --> 01:38:04.159
from a military, from from the
public power, and and John I

1222
01:38:04.239 --> 01:38:10.600
can't remember his name, he he
had all the UFO data and and he

1223
01:38:10.680 --> 01:38:15.800
had it on paper at all the
radar papes everything. Yeah, yeah,

1224
01:38:15.880 --> 01:38:19.600
exactly, that was the case.
When you come across cases like that,

1225
01:38:20.359 --> 01:38:26.800
what does that do for you in
terms of moving you more into the I

1226
01:38:26.920 --> 01:38:34.279
want to say believer category. Um, yeah, I mean I find those

1227
01:38:34.680 --> 01:38:41.680
to be the most exciting because those
are the ones that seem to be true

1228
01:38:41.760 --> 01:38:45.279
mysteries. And as a as a
journalist and also as a human being,

1229
01:38:45.880 --> 01:38:51.439
real complicated, open questions are the
ones that are most fascinating to me.

1230
01:38:51.560 --> 01:38:57.760
But I would say they don't move
me more to the believer side, except

1231
01:38:57.840 --> 01:39:02.720
like I believe it happened. I
believe we don't know yet what it is.

1232
01:39:03.079 --> 01:39:06.279
I don't necessarily believe that we can't
know what it is or that it

1233
01:39:06.359 --> 01:39:11.159
has to be something extraordinary. But
I find them exciting from just like the

1234
01:39:11.319 --> 01:39:16.239
solving solving a mystery perspective. And
I think it was actually Kurt Collins who

1235
01:39:16.439 --> 01:39:20.840
said to me the first time we
talked for the book that UFOs are like

1236
01:39:21.039 --> 01:39:26.720
the ultimate problem to solve, because
they're just it's very compelling, it's very

1237
01:39:26.760 --> 01:39:30.640
complicated, and it's hard to get
to the bottom of and I would love

1238
01:39:31.439 --> 01:39:38.199
nothing more than to be able to
explain something like that with an extraordinary explanation,

1239
01:39:38.319 --> 01:39:42.560
I think. All right, And
is there one case that, like

1240
01:39:42.840 --> 01:39:50.640
you would put it your most compelling
M that's a hard question, UM.

1241
01:39:50.800 --> 01:39:55.560
I mean I think the one I
spent the most time with that I believe

1242
01:39:56.079 --> 01:40:00.199
is at least still still unresolved.
As one John Greenwald told me a about

1243
01:40:00.239 --> 01:40:02.560
that was what first got him into
things, which was the nineteen seventy six

1244
01:40:03.159 --> 01:40:08.880
um I Ran incident, which for
a while was cited UM in you know,

1245
01:40:09.039 --> 01:40:13.960
air force publications as an example of
when pilots can expect to encounter something

1246
01:40:14.039 --> 01:40:16.920
they can't explained, and how that's
just normal, and so that was that

1247
01:40:17.119 --> 01:40:21.680
was very interesting to me that it
was lower kind of even within the air

1248
01:40:21.760 --> 01:40:28.640
force. All Right, all right, very interesting. Really enjoyed the discussion.

1249
01:40:29.319 --> 01:40:32.119
Great, thank you for listening.
Thank you, Thank you for the

1250
01:40:32.199 --> 01:40:36.560
call, Steve, and take care. Talk to you next time. All

1251
01:40:36.640 --> 01:40:41.960
right. We have another caller.
UM. It doesn't appear to be screened

1252
01:40:42.039 --> 01:40:45.680
yet, UM, so I'll ask
you this question. It is he just

1253
01:40:45.800 --> 01:40:54.720
wrote screened, UM, And it's
Kim Kim calling from Texas. Welcome,

1254
01:40:55.079 --> 01:41:06.800
Welcome to the show. Kim,
Kim there, Cam you there, Cam,

1255
01:41:06.840 --> 01:41:14.640
Are you there? All right?
UM? Something's wrong. So Bill,

1256
01:41:14.720 --> 01:41:17.520
if you're listening up, can you
can you check to see what's going

1257
01:41:17.600 --> 01:41:25.279
on with that line? That's Kim
calling from Texas. So while he's checking

1258
01:41:25.319 --> 01:41:29.840
into that, I might have to
hang up. There may be no way

1259
01:41:29.880 --> 01:41:33.239
that Bill can go back in there. Yeah, all right, So let

1260
01:41:33.319 --> 01:41:39.800
me ask you this. If you
you were saying that you think maybe one

1261
01:41:39.920 --> 01:41:44.560
percent chance that they could be m
extra trust or or some of them or

1262
01:41:44.920 --> 01:41:48.840
maybe a few of them or whatever, it would only take one to make

1263
01:41:48.960 --> 01:41:53.239
you know, that giant leap,
that giant step. But what would what

1264
01:41:53.439 --> 01:42:01.720
is your argument against them that they
wouldn't be here? The disc um?

1265
01:42:02.199 --> 01:42:08.000
Yeah, I mean so I don't
know if I would characterize it as an

1266
01:42:08.079 --> 01:42:14.039
argument that they wouldn't be here,
just that it would take a lot to

1267
01:42:14.600 --> 01:42:16.760
prove that that's what they are.
And in terms of what would make it

1268
01:42:16.960 --> 01:42:24.199
hard that yeah, the distance,
um, you know, building either a

1269
01:42:24.319 --> 01:42:30.239
spaceship much faster than we can imagine
or something multi generational. And then also

1270
01:42:30.319 --> 01:42:33.960
the motivation like why why come to
a little old Earth when there's so many

1271
01:42:34.039 --> 01:42:39.520
planets out there? Um? Are
we just that interesting? How they pick

1272
01:42:39.680 --> 01:42:44.319
us? If it's stuff like Roswell
why are they crashing? Think they crossed

1273
01:42:44.399 --> 01:42:48.920
the universe, Um, things like
that. But um, I mean,

1274
01:42:49.000 --> 01:42:54.199
I know that's an argument that a
lot of scientists make to dismiss UFOs as

1275
01:42:54.239 --> 01:42:57.840
a topic, that it's that it's
too far and it's not possible. But

1276
01:42:57.920 --> 01:43:02.600
I think it's really impossible for us
to imagine what a civilization much older than

1277
01:43:02.720 --> 01:43:06.399
us would be capable of, or
what they what they might want to do.

1278
01:43:06.960 --> 01:43:12.439
Um, you know that's not we
can't actually know that right right.

1279
01:43:12.880 --> 01:43:15.439
Um. You know, I've as
I said to Seth Shostak, maybe they

1280
01:43:15.520 --> 01:43:19.439
figured something out about physics that we
haven't even We don't even have a clue

1281
01:43:19.439 --> 01:43:23.880
about yet at this point, especially
like you just said, they could be

1282
01:43:24.359 --> 01:43:27.399
you know, we're very young,
you know there, our solar system is

1283
01:43:27.479 --> 01:43:30.760
very very young, so you know, they even you know, can you

1284
01:43:30.800 --> 01:43:33.439
imagine a hundred years from now with
our technology, you know, the way

1285
01:43:33.520 --> 01:43:36.520
things are going. We're gonna try
kemmy called back. We're going to see

1286
01:43:36.760 --> 01:43:42.880
what happens. Kem. Are you
there? Yeah, I'm here. How

1287
01:43:42.960 --> 01:43:46.239
you doing, Matt? Good,
good to hear you this time? Good?

1288
01:43:46.560 --> 01:43:51.199
Yeah, so yeah, yeah,
I'm married through Listen. I'm just

1289
01:43:51.359 --> 01:43:57.279
wanting to call it. I may
miss something in this conversation that what I'm

1290
01:43:57.359 --> 01:44:03.840
here enough about is the physics involved
what you know, the TSA paracraft and

1291
01:44:03.960 --> 01:44:09.439
everything. I think people kind of
blow that off a little bit. They

1292
01:44:09.520 --> 01:44:14.560
don't, I don't understand the physics
involved in those crafts are I mean,

1293
01:44:14.640 --> 01:44:19.479
it's amazing. We have nothing like
that. I just want to hear your

1294
01:44:19.520 --> 01:44:24.880
comments on that. Yeah, so
Kim, I'm going to take you off

1295
01:44:24.920 --> 01:44:28.119
the air so you'll listen to you
to that because they were a little bit

1296
01:44:28.159 --> 01:44:31.359
of a phone problem there, but
we'll answer that on this side. Thank

1297
01:44:31.439 --> 01:44:34.920
you, all right, thank you, Yeah, all right, go by

1298
01:44:36.079 --> 01:44:44.000
m sou. One of the characteristics
that he's talking about and that has come

1299
01:44:44.119 --> 01:44:49.760
up on this show was the radar
data showing of these tic TACs actually creating

1300
01:44:50.560 --> 01:44:56.079
um G force of fifteen hundred,
which is just unheard of. No craft

1301
01:44:56.199 --> 01:45:00.359
that we know of that we could
build good stay together, you know,

1302
01:45:00.520 --> 01:45:02.560
and take that type of force,
you know, going five thousand miles an

1303
01:45:02.600 --> 01:45:09.439
hour and uh and less than you
know one second to the just above the

1304
01:45:09.520 --> 01:45:13.960
ocean floor, I mean the ocean
surface, um you know, just really

1305
01:45:14.039 --> 01:45:18.359
truly amazing. So I guess his
question is what about the physics. Yeah,

1306
01:45:18.560 --> 01:45:23.439
what about the physics? Um?
I mean I haven't seen that specific

1307
01:45:23.680 --> 01:45:29.319
calculation of the G force, and
um, if that's true, then it

1308
01:45:29.359 --> 01:45:32.520
would definitely take some explaining and it
is hard to imagine us coming up with

1309
01:45:33.199 --> 01:45:36.720
something like that in the amount of
time that we had. I also think

1310
01:45:38.159 --> 01:45:41.840
that there's a lot of context missing
from the videos, like we don't have

1311
01:45:41.960 --> 01:45:44.960
the beginnings, we don't have the
ends, we don't have the hard data

1312
01:45:45.000 --> 01:45:47.000
to go with them. So it's
actually really hard, I think, from

1313
01:45:47.279 --> 01:45:53.520
from a physicist perspective, to draw
conclusions about about what is actually going on

1314
01:45:53.600 --> 01:45:59.119
and make those kinds of calculations in
a way that you can really back up

1315
01:45:59.239 --> 01:46:02.960
and so um, yeah, I
and yeah, it would be hard to

1316
01:46:03.000 --> 01:46:08.760
account for for fifteen hundred geez.
But I do think that, I mean,

1317
01:46:08.840 --> 01:46:14.000
for decades and decades there has been
terrestrial technology that is far beyond what

1318
01:46:14.159 --> 01:46:17.640
any of us know about who don't
work in militaries. But mostly what I'd

1319
01:46:17.680 --> 01:46:23.800
like to see is more data to
understand more about what the videos are actually

1320
01:46:23.880 --> 01:46:29.439
showing versus what we can actually just
infer from from videos. And again,

1321
01:46:29.520 --> 01:46:32.439
like I mentioned before, somewhere out
there that exists. You know, there's

1322
01:46:32.479 --> 01:46:38.239
a really good footage from those tech
taks that's not the FLR that is you

1323
01:46:38.319 --> 01:46:44.840
know color you know video that a
guest on this show briefly, Chase and

1324
01:46:44.920 --> 01:46:50.119
Turner was on, um that actually
that actually saw that video playing, according

1325
01:46:50.159 --> 01:46:55.399
to him, and yeah, I
mean that technology. I understand what you're

1326
01:46:55.399 --> 01:47:00.439
saying about technology that we have no
idea that does exist secret tech technology.

1327
01:47:00.520 --> 01:47:04.840
But um, it doesn't explain why
people were seeing things um and and on

1328
01:47:05.039 --> 01:47:10.199
radar at five thousand miles an hour, you know, forty years ago,

1329
01:47:10.880 --> 01:47:17.079
you know, you know, nineteen
So so anyway, we are at the

1330
01:47:17.319 --> 01:47:21.479
end of our show. Can you
tell the listener where they can find your

1331
01:47:21.520 --> 01:47:28.840
book? Uh? Sure, if
you go to my website www dot Sarah

1332
01:47:28.960 --> 01:47:32.520
Skulls scols dot com. Um,
there should be links to all the different

1333
01:47:32.560 --> 01:47:36.079
places you can buy it, I
know right now during the pandemic. Amazon

1334
01:47:36.199 --> 01:47:41.680
is a little slow, so understandably, so there's other options on there about

1335
01:47:41.720 --> 01:47:45.840
where you can get it, including
your local bookstore. Excellent. Okay,

1336
01:47:45.000 --> 01:47:47.760
well, thank you so much.
I really really enjoyed tonight's show. It

1337
01:47:47.880 --> 01:47:50.760
was a lot of fun. Yeah, thank you for having me, all

1338
01:47:50.840 --> 01:47:55.800
right, you take care you two. Yeah. Bye, all right everyone.

1339
01:47:55.920 --> 01:47:59.920
So that's it for the show.
Tonight. Next week we have Mark

1340
01:48:00.159 --> 01:48:03.399
D'Antonio and it should be a good
show. He's always a lot of fun.

1341
01:48:03.520 --> 01:48:08.159
He's a good friend as well.
And I want to thank everyone so

1342
01:48:08.319 --> 01:48:11.279
much for listening, and I want
to thank you for supporting the show.

1343
01:48:11.359 --> 01:48:15.039
Remember to go over to podcast ufo
dot com and check out the blog over

1344
01:48:15.119 --> 01:48:19.239
there and everything else. And so
that is it again, Thank you very

1345
01:48:19.359 --> 01:48:26.119
much everyone, and remember to stay
socially distanced and keep your eyes to the sky.