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now and now media check o' May one, twenty twenty four, allegedly according
to that thing we call a calendar, this the O'Kelly effect. You listening
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your final slab of choice. So either way, guess what it is?
A Wolden's Day Wednesday, middle of the week. Some people call it hump
day. It is what it is, But for me, every other week
it's a great chance to sit down with author, researcher, historian and overall
great guy Larryhancock. You go to Larrydashandcock dot com and if you know,
welcome to the Internet, Welcome to the JFK research community, welcome to the
show. You never heard of Larry before. Go to Larry dash Hancock dot
com and you'll see many things that he has written, not just a blog,
but a great number of books that take up a lot of room on
my bookshelf. Surprise Attack, shadow warfare, creating Chaos. Those are books
not even focused on the JFK case. Today, we're going to focus on
the JFK case, and I'm happy to have Larry Hancock with me, so
when we're going to go onto a particular aspect of the case, by the
way, a fairly controversial one. What a surprise there. Also, you
know, we got to discuss this guy that you might have never heard of
too, Welcome to planet Earth once again, Lee rvy Oswald. And why
do we have to discuss him? Well, a lot of different reasons,
not only see the alleged assassin and all that. But anyway, go to
larrydash Handcock dot com, follow his blog and in the weeks and months to
come, we're going to be talking about JFK Lancer the conference this year.
Larry might be participating it with it via remote, I think, but we'll
see what happens. You never know what could happen by the time we get
to November. I'm gonna be the MC there again. But again, not
focusing on that tonight necessarily, although the JFK case is where we're going on
this particular Wednesday. Larry, first off, how you doing tonight. I'm
doing fine, Chuck. Of course, I'm shot by the thought that there
might be controversy in the subject. I mean, okay, I'm taken aback,
not sure how to deal with that. Yeah, I mean it's possible
that there are differing opinions, you know, regarding the evidence that is publicly
known, the special evidence that some people claim to have, the interesting insights
that individuals do have. You know, we could begin with the likes of
Ed Lopez. We could start with what actually happened in Mexico City only a
few weeks prior to the assassination, and this character Oswald, the historical Oswald.
Okay, not going to go into is there more than one guy and
all that. No, let's stick to the facts. Let's stick to the
thing that floated around right, not instantaneously. I don't remember coming out that
weekend, but you know, shortly after the assassination, not only did they
you know, parade out the clips from WDSU TV Latin listening post. You
know, Oswald had been on the radio, fair Play for Cuba Committee,
all that kind of stuff. But guess what was going on internally, Jay
Edgar Hoover the FBI at that time being Edgar Hoover and the FBI being what
interchangeable in a sentence. They were looking into this circumstance where Lee Harvey Oswald
had made a trip to Mexico City and done some strange things. I mean,
at one point asking what to go to Cuba, at another point allegedly
pulling out a gun and putting it on the desk at a consulate. Pretty
interesting behavior, okay, from a guy who had already defected to the Soviet
Union but not really, who had gone to Minsk, lived there for a
while, had wanted to go to Russia, and then really badly wanted to
come home. And here he is in Mexico City in nineteen sixty three,
or did he actually get there? Let's begin with that. And I thought
that for a long time, by the way, Larry, that maybe this
was a complete fabrication. Maybe somebody made this up to simply make Lee Harvey
Oswald look like the screaming red communist. That would have made a lot more
sense, being that he killed the President of the United States, if you
wanted to push that narrative. I mean, for some body to fabricate a
trip to Mexico City for somebody to fabricate attempts to leave the United States once
again, to defect. All of those things kind of made sense, and
Jander Huber felt as though he had been lied to regarding those circumstances. And
oh, by the way, do we have photographs, do we have phone
calls? Do we have a paper trail regarding this interesting trip? Maybe we
should begin with the bare facts on this, Larry, and tell us what
should be the introduction to Lee Harvey Oswald in Mexico City just a few weeks
before November twenty second of nineteen sixty three. Well, I think I'd start
with two things, Chuck. As we often talk about, there is context,
and you have to con the context of Oswald and Mexico City considering what
he purportedly went there to do. He went there to do in conjunction with
two things that he had been doing all year long, So in terms of
consistency, and you know, I'm with you. Until I really started digging
into this again for myself, I didn't realize how much that other people had
written that I was taking for granted that I had never gone back to the
source information on. So there's context that's very important. There's context. You
actually have to begin with December nineteen sixty two, which is when Oswald starts
his communication again with the Russian embassy in New York City, and all throughout
the year of nineteen sixty three there is correspondence between Marina Oswald and the Russian
embassy, and between Lee Oswell and the Russian embassy about Marina and June the
child going back to Russia, about Oswell going back to Russia separately from them,
and then later when Marina gets pregnant pregnant another real push to urgency for
Marina to get back to the USSR so that the new baby is actually born
in Russia. Is this context that we often ignore. I think I was.
I was surprised to find that. You know, while she was in
the United States, Marina had written and followed all the procedures required by the
Soviet Union to retain her citizenship. She had had written and file changes of
addresses, she had she she had began writing in February of nineteen sixty three
about the process for returning to the us SR. And I think that's some
backstory that we often missed. Well, let me ask you a question about
that real fast, because let's put the babies in context. Right. You
have a June right, who is born in the Soviet Union, and Marina
brings her with her when she comes to America with Oswald, right, And
then she's pregnant with the baby that will become Rachel Oswalt, and urgently she'd
like to return to the Soviet Union. She's not happy here in America.
You know, maybe she's really not happy with being with Oswald in America.
You know, things are not going well. We famously know about that from
some authors that maybe we don't really like. We definitely get accounts in the
Marina and Lee book, right, you know, the journalists that had run
into Oswald in the Soviet Union later on writing the book with Marina directly,
So we get plenty of an idea that maybe Marina's unhappy here, not just
unhappy in her marriage, but maybe just unhappy in America too, and would
like to return home, and indeed would like to have her other child also
born in the Soviet Union. I mean, it's the reverse of the anchor
baby thing that people talk about, right, where it's like, I don't
want my kids born in America. I want to go back home where at
least I understand how things work, and who knows, maybe I can get
rid of this husband I'm not too thrilled with, and he'd like to go
back even separately. And nobody ever brings that up at all when they start
talking about this series of events that leads to what happens in Mexico City.
But also in context, right, you have his fair play for Cuba Committee
stuff. You have him writing to I think the Communist Party. You have
him writing to a bunch of people about different things where he feels as though
he's being targeted. He's complaining about the FBI and Hosty and host he's visiting
him. All these things are going on swirling around Oswald, and then he
decides to make this trip to Mexico. Right, and again, as I
said, it's only a few weeks before literally he goes to Mexico in October.
And the dates are a little questionable. Somebody's got a couple of different
ideas about dates. But if you actually look at the evidence that you're taking
into peace value, you have some dates here you can work with. You
have a couple of points that you can work with, and say, Oswald
is there just slightly over three weeks before the assassination, right, all right,
and he's coming now again that backstory probably again you pointed out on Oswald.
Clearly, whatever Marina is doing and there is a real backstory there,
it's ambivalence. There are times when she gets along with Oswald. There's times
when she doesn't. Certainly America never worked out to be what she imagined it
to be. And even when people actually try to persuade her separately, like
to leave Oswald and can they help her do something to stay in the US,
she goes back and forth and people kind of get disgusted with her over
that, like okay, And eventually, in one of her final letters to
the Soviet Union explaining her position, you know, as recently as October November,
she's saying, look, I can't even I can't get a job here.
You know, if I was back in Russia, I'm trained as a
pharmacists assistant. I can get a job there. You know. So clearly
there's some ambivalence. But Oswald, if you want to set a starting point,
clearly Oswald begins taking a turn towards someplace else, whether it's Russia,
whether it's Cuba. As you say he applies for a new passport in June.
You don't apply for a new passport unless you're thinking about going somewhere right,
well, in then all fairness, okay, just in all fairness,
and you're in a turbulent relationship. This is not uncommon. What's going on
here where you got back and forth. You got one party seeing it one
way, one party seeing in another way. This is not, you know,
the kind of thing that is made up really on the side of the
low nut theorists, right who say that, you know, look, he
was just this disenchanted, dis in you know, malcontent kind of looks that
way. He's not happy anywhere he's going. He can't seem to make any
situation work out the way he wants it to. So this is not out
of character, considering the inconsistent level of contentment that Oswald himself is seeking and
finding as he goes from place to place, and indeed, even having been
to the Soviet Union, he wasn't happy there. He had to come back
here. Now he's not happy here, he wants to go back there.
They're moving around. This is not actually outside of the realm of what would
be normal in a circumstance like this, even if the names weren't Marina and
Leigh Oswald. Okay, So I'm just saying it's not a you know,
it's not an uncommon thing. And even when he's successful in a way,
he's not I mean. And by the way, it's always important to remember
something he said to his friend de Morenshield, and Oswell really said, you
know, I know that I'm looking for something that I'm probably never going to
find, because de Morenshield had kind of joked with him about, you know,
you're you're an idealist, You're never You're you want to something that's just
not going to happen. And Oz will actually recognize that to some extent.
But if you look at his activity to two major areas of exactivity in New
Orleans, he actually does achieve a certain amount of fame, visibility, recognition
for his support for Q and for Castro. I mean up to that point
in time. I mean, he demonstrated in Dallas, he's been writing letters,
but he's kind of a public non entity by the time he gets through
in New Orleans. He's known, he's there's a record, there's media record,
he's been on TV, he's been in TV interviews, radio interviews.
He's been in the paper. But even then, where do you go next?
Because he can't get a job. By this time, his dishonorable discharge
has caught up with him. And if you look at his job application situation,
it just gets worse and worse. He has no references. If anybody
checks out his background and his other jobs, he's not going to get any
recommendations. Is this is problem with being associated with supporting leftist causes. This
is not a good place for anybody to be who's looking for work. So
when we see him in New Orleans, here's here's Marina, who's pregnant.
It's going to have a baby in a few months. He doesn't have a
job. He has no prospects of getting a job. You know, obviously
he's looking for outlets. You know, what am I going to do next?
Yeah? I made myself famous as a Castro supporter, But what do
I do next? It hasn't helped him with his inconsistent living circumstance, It
hasn't helped him with his inconsistent job circumstance. None of that stuff has been
helped here. So it might play in Cuba, but it's not playing in
the US right, especially not in a place like New Orleans, where,
quite honestly, I mean, the general consensus is not going to be to
be completely thrilled with left wing causes. It looks like to me, I
mean, maybe maybe I'm taking that out of context, but it seems like
you're right, and that's part of his problem. He is. When he
wrote to the Fair Play for Cuba Committee, they actually advised him not to
try to start a chapter because it's not a good place for you know,
procastro people. The interesting thing is, so they wrote back and wrote back
a letter and told him that kind of like, we'll send you literature,
but you know, this would be a mistake on your part. For the
rest of the summer, he continues writing to them. He never gets another
response from them. Okay, Oswald is writing people that he's not getting responses
to. He's writing to the Socialist Workers Party, he's writing a Communist Party
USA. I mean, if you wanted a pay portrayal to incriminate the man,
all you've got to do. I don't need for him to go to
Mexico. All I've got to do is pull out the letter that says,
you know, I'm really wholeheartedly support This is to the communist part of the
US, you know, are cause and should I go underground? You know,
you want a smoking gun. There you go, that's already been written
before he does anything else. So he's he's done a lot of outreach.
But even to the people that you think might support him, they're hesitant.
You know, they know their mail is being monitored by the FBI. Right
Oswald as early as the fall of nineteen sixty two, knew that his mail
was being opened and monitored, Okay, which is interesting things. So yeah,
is he does that make him a little bit crazy? Does he protest
to the post office? Yeah? But even these people, the people at
the magazines he's writing to, like the Socialist the Socialist Worker Party magazine,
when they're interviewed after the fact, they're going, yeah, we actually had
letters on the file from this guy, and we didn't want him. You
know, He's people are monitoring my mail, and you know, we don't
want the kind of thing we want, very neutral, supportive, you know,
we don't want anything radical associated with us. So there he is in
New Orleans and in a way he's been successful. He's built built a public
resume. But what's he going to do next? And I think that's what
we often forget, what, well, what us will do next? He's
he's told Marina and he's told Ruth Payne that he's going to have to look
for work somewhere else. This isn't working. He might go to the East
Coast, he might go to Houston, whatever, but it's already been made
clear. He's going to have to leave New Orleans and go somewhere. You
know, he's going to have to go somewhere. The only question is where
does he go? And there's no discussion with anybody about him immediately. You
know he's not going to follow along with Marina and Ruth back to Oswa to
uh Dallas right for the for the baby to be born. That's been clear.
So he's going to be going somewhere. I think we have to have
that as the backstory where there was going to be Mexico. We're going to
find him somewhere other than New Orleans, right because it just wasn't working out.
Okay. So but meanwhile, Marina and the baby, and now you
know she's going to be pregnant, so she needs a place to be and
that might be a separate issue from him. So there you have it.
Okay, So he goes to Dallas and he's not there that long, right
into well, Texas, I should say, he's not there that long.
But then we have this trip. So where do we begin with this.
We don't actually know that he goes to Texas. Oh, there's nothing that
shows him. Okay, I should not say that's incorrect since I've written something
different as part of the official record as far as correspondence with Marina or Ruth
or anything. There are reported sightings of him in Texas, Okay, one
in the Houston area, one in the Dallas area. So there are sightings,
but officially he doesn't really come back on the radar with a paper trail
until he shows up at the ymcah in in October in Dallas. And actually
even when he shows up back in Dallas, the interesting thing is he registers
at the Y and he actually starts job hunting before he even contacts Marina.
But I not to grip, but that we don't. We don't have any
travel or anything that shows him. You know, he's in New Orleans and
then weeks later he's in Dallas. Right, No, fair enough, and
Look, he's looking for replace to land, and it's not going to be
with Marina, but he's somewhat nearby, so maybe he can come visit.
Maybe that's coming into his mind. But obviously he's got to figure out a
way to earn a living, so he's trying to do that right away.
He's going to the temp agencies and all that. And then we have this,
you know situation, how did you get the job of the book depository?
We've been over that. We don't need to lay that out again,
but he ends up with that, with that job at a certain point.
But how does this Mexico City trip, you know, come on the radar?
How does it appear in the record? You know? That's and and
that's a place where we actually do have a paper trail. I mean we
have again for some reason, we usually view it as if it all comes
about after the assassination. But but we have a paper trail of correspondence between
the Mexico City CIA station and CIA headquarters, who copies parts of that messaging
to several other agencies. And that that paper trail, which begins in October,
uh about eight days after he's you know, purportedly left Mexico City.
The paper trail says, there's been an American here. He's been at the
Russian embassy, and we have identified him as Lee Harvey Oswald right now.
The interesting part of that paper trail is it's all about Oswald in Mexico City
at the Russian embassy. And this is where the nightmare begins in essence,
because even though that paper trail is solid, we then generate a whole series
of back and forth messages. UH. Mexico City station is asking about information
on Lee Harvey Oswald and headquarters sends them back some information and copies of their
people. We actually have a document that says, right at the time of
Lee Hoswald, UH, like that time in October when he's when he's there,
Mexico City not only identify UH notified headquarters about him being at the Russian
Inmpoort. They notified UH other staff in Mexico City, the legot UH who
in any diplomatic station is the FBI representative. UH, That's just the way
it works. So the FBI guy in Mexico City has been notified he was
there. The ambassador has been notified he's been there. There there's a big
stir in Mexico City because Lee RV. Oswald has been there and he's been
at the Russian embassy, so that that goes that is going on over the
weeks part of the assassination. Uh, what's what gets to be our our
biggest nightmare is some things that the CIA starts doing in terms of compartmentaling information,
compartmentalizing information not only from Mexico City station, but from the FBI.
And the big thing that they start doing is not sharing information about what Oswell
was doing in New Orleans, about Oswell's trip to the Cuban and visits to
the Cuban, about his FPCC activities, that all this information is shielded,
and it's taken literally decades for us to find out how badly compartmentalized it was.
It's only through Simpach's work, Morley's work, some other people's work.
Now we even know. We're beginning to know reasons for that, including the
fact that the CIA was concerned that there was a leak inside the FBI office
in Mexico City. So they're all sorts of game. But one of the
things I wanted to point out, Chuck, is we had none of that
information. We were not able to look at the complexity of what was going
on around this Oswell story in Mexico City probably until within certainly within the past
ten years. Right, So nothing that anybody wrote, nothing that I wrote,
nothing that Peter Dale Scott wrote earlier. You were into this, the
worse it was because the less information you had. And so I think that's
an important thing when we look back on the evolving story of Ozla Mexico City.
Is the good news is we know a lot more context now than we
did before. Does that make it simpler now? It makes it more complex?
Right? And Look, it's not just about the authors, because even
in an official capacity, Ed Lopez, Dan Hardaway, they get sent down
there to go find out what happened, you know, what went on here
regarding his visits, and that was during the House Select Committee on Assassinations.
Right, They send those two down there to go find things out. And
although that report remained partially classified or completely classified for me years, even when
we've gotten it now, it's still kind of confusing. It's more and that
that's great to point that out because Lopez and the people that we're working on
here's here's one of the major problems. The first CIA officer that was designated
to do a report on Osle in Mexico City became actually very suspicious about what
was going on within the CIA because the stories were so inconsistent okay, and
way too complex and there were a lot of holes and a lot of contradictions.
He got pulled off that job and replaced by James Angleton. Angleton is
one of our primary suspects, and having made this the nightmare it is in
terms of compartmentalization, because he was the guy that was controlling Oswald's file and
compartmentalizing information in Oswell's file and is literally the people working for him that was
filtering this information I was just talking about. So of course Lopez has come
to understand you can't trust any of that. When the HSCA wrote their summary
report that went along with his work, they literally said, you know,
it is so bad the IG lied to us about practices in Mexico City.
We don't trust the CIA documents. We found an internal CIA document that says
everything that David Phillips told us about Oswald and Mexicanico City is incorrect because Phillips
didn't know what was really going on. It's like a good lord, if
Phillips didn't know what was going on, who knew what about anything? So
you're absolutely right. It's not just the authors, it's the investigation itself that
started deconstructing this mess that as we you and I have talked earlier, a
lot of what's going on here is stuff going on within in the CIA about
Oswald's appearance in Mexico City, which very has very little to do with what
he was actually doing there himself, you know, because his visits, he
he was only there for a few days. You know that that vision to
the Russian embassy was relatively short. You know, it's just parsing out this
complexity of what got overlaid after the fact, which leads to the big question
of why was the CIA making it so complex? What else was going on
that was thrown into this mix? Right? And it had to be pretty
bad because we got greeted with those ridiculous pictures, right, you know,
this is Lee Oswald, you know, outside of the embassy slash consulate,
which they are two different facilities, but they're on the same premises. So
let's keep that straight. And here's a picture of him. And meanwhile that
is clearly not the guy that we know to be Lee RB Oswald. So
what happens here? The CIA's got pictures of the wrong guy. You've got
a wonder. It's sort of like the Mexico City operation in terms of surveillance
and monitoring, and it is the crown jewel of the agency. There is
no place on Earth that has more assets devoted to surveillance and monitoring the Mexico
City and much of that is because of this covert relationship with the Mexican president,
who is given the CIA carte blanche to do everything they want to do
in Mexico City as long as they share their information with him, which of
course is one of the crown jewels of the CIA's operation. But this is
the place where we got better resources than anyplace else in the US world.
Okay, and Oswald supposedly enters the Cuban embassy, the Cuban consulate three times,
the Russian embassy twice, and we don't have a picture. Okay,
we don't have a picture. He's monitored on he's monitored multiple times. We
know that there's a tap on the Cuban consulate line, Okay, a local
tap. We know there's a tap on the Russian embassy line, a local
tap, and we know beyond all of that, there's this huge facility with
two dozen operators monitoring all the phone calls through the diplomatic facilities, through a
centralized switching facility staffed by Mexican personnel, watched over by the America, the
Mexican DFS, the federal police, who were doing their own recordings and transcripts.
So we got local tapes, we got local monitors, we got centralized,
and in the end, what do we have. We have nothing.
We have no takes with voices on them that we can check, even though
I think and I will maintain throughout that about the only people I can trust
in this whole game are the terrasofs, who were the translitter transcribers working for
the CIA, and who themselves were got a bit confused because they didn't handle
all the intercepts right. Some were done locally at the you know, but
them, when they say something, I tend tend to believe it because they
say I listened to this, I listened to this, I wrote that down.
You know, at least you've got a first party statement. But no,
you're right Chuck, it's it's agonizing. You know, if you were
writing a performance review of the Mexico City station, uh, you would have
to say you people suck. Yeah, because I can't. I can't reliably
track. Even when you're talking about, okay, the whole thing with the
tterosafs and the tapes. You've got a guy on there that's speaking Spanish really
well, and to my knowledge, Oswald doesn't have that great of a command
of Spanish. You know, we have a guy with a different accent,
which okay, I don't know what's happening with some of these tapes. Yeah,
And that gets one of the things I've been working really hard to do
and we've talked about and what I try I will we do in the book
Okay, that we're going to offer up is a deconstruction of all of those
intercepts and who really heard what and who transcribed what. And one of the
problems being is the pterosavs. Of course, only of seven purported calls that
the the c I said Oswald might have been involved with, they only listened
to and transcribed three, and they were very clear that the calls that they
heard were in English, that they heard no broken Russian. They made no
remarks about broken Russian, which leads one to believe that that stuff came from
the Central Switching Center or elsewhere. But at least their story is quite consistent.
And mister Terrasoft said, you know, the last call that he heard
in which Oswald's name was actually mentioned was the caller that he'd heard a few
days before in another call, So at least that part can be helpful.
But yeah, they're clearly inconsistent. That's one of the things that drove Lopez
nuts because he had to face the fact that the Mexico City Station was giving
its own version of these things, and the Terrasafce said there and the Terra
Sauce were never interviewed. In fact, the CIA blocked the Tero Salls from
being interviewed by the Warren Commission, just as they blocked Durant. So we
have to face the fact that, for whatever reason, the CIA blocked the
primary sources who could have resolved all of our questions, the Terosovs and Duran,
from being approached by or interviewed by the Warrant Commission, which, again,
you know, it just adds to the pile of problems. Here.
Yeah, so it does. And this is why, like I said,
for a long time, I concluded that it doesn't seem to be a reliable
story that he was even really there because outside of it, to my mind,
outside of the fact that somebody had brought a picture of Oswald there,
because he's there's a photograph that ends up there with the you know, along
with the process of him trying to get the passport, right, and there's
this passport photograph that appears to be legitimate, and that's it to me.
Everything else was all up in the air. I brought up the whole thing
about him bringing in the gun uh, you know, into the uh,
into the Russian consulate. Oh and by the way, during one of these
visits or phone calls I forget which I think the consulate was not even open
to the public. Yeah, that the that is uh that relates to the
the so called impersonation call. Neither the neither the Cuban consulate or the Soviet
embassy was open on Saturday, right uh. Now, both the Soviet Guard
and the Soviet personnel at the embassy have stated that Oswald did show up their
embassy on Saturday and got the attention of a guard and and was I won't
say was agitated, like okay, I really have got to see somebody,
it's urgent whatever, And that he did manage, you know, there were
embassy staff there, I mean on a Saturday. Actually a totally different story,
but yeah, that it was closed. What what the other side of
that story is, certainly it's there's that's a reasonable in a story at least
that's consistent the Cuban consulate from whence the telephone call was made after that was
closed, and Sylvia Duran was adamant that the consulate was closed, so was
the every their staff was adamant that it was closed. And Duran of course
was adamant that she had not made a call with Lee Oswald to the Soviet
embassy on that Saturday, which the you know, So again that's just another
you ran into confusion contention at all times in this story because there are other
things going on, and I have I have things to offer on that that
call. I don't think there's any possibility that that call was not an impersonation,
and the only question is who and why it made it, you know,
And I will get into the fact that actually such a call being made
by the CIA itself would not have been all that unusual. It's referred to
as a pretext call when you're trying to find out and identify. The CIA
had done that on multiplicasions before even Lopez found this out. That if somebody
showed up at the Cuban embassy or the Russian embassy that they couldn't identify,
one of their standard practices was to make a pretext call to the embassy or
consulate, representing that themselves as that person, not naming themselves, but trying
to fish out the name or description or something about the person to help them
a standard pretext call. Okay, so now that we've gone through all this,
you know and some people are listening to this, going geez, how
more confused than I was? All right, let's take a step back.
How do we lay this story out? How would you explain this? And
I know you're going to do this in the book, and you've already talked
about breaking down the recordings and you know what actually happened there and stuff like
that, but give us a general overview of this. Well, yeah,
let's give you Larry's simplistic life is simpler than we tend to make it response,
please Lee Rvy. Oswald had decided, probably as early as Dallas when
he when he left Dallas and went to New Orleans, that his attention was
focused on Cuba. And I think Marina says that his letter writing says that
everything about Oswald says that he had he had transferred his ambitions from the Russian
system to the Cuban system. So Oswall was I don't want to use the
word obsess, but his real as said earlier, when his goal had been
to get into Russia and see it for himself, his goal was to get
to Cuba. So we had have kind of two goals playing here. One
goal it relates to Marina and Russia. The other goal relates to Lee and
Cuba. But so I don't find it hard at all to believe that he
was exploring any options that he had or could find to get to Cuba.
Now, Okay, so, as we just discussed earlier, he's out of
a job, he's at lose ends, he's going to be going someplace.
One of the interesting places in persons he contacts is a fellow in Houston's Uh
that he's come across that he's contacted that is involved with maritime activities, shipping
and that sort of thing. There's evidence that he actually even did that in
New Orleans. Speculation would be that he was exploring the possibility of getting a
job on a ship or with a line that ultimately would take him to Cuba.
I mean, he couldn't fly there directly. That was not permitted.
It was illegal to go there directly. Even his passport is marked, his
new passport, he's got that it's not legal to travel directly to Cuba.
The only way that you can get to Cuba is to go overseas or offshore
and come back to Cuba. You can't go there directly from the US.
You're going to have to go indirectly. And quite frankly, Oswall was quite
aware of the fact because this was standard FPCC practice. FPC student members had
on a number of occasions managed to go to and from Cuba through Mexico City.
The standard travel route from the US was to go to Mexico City and
get permission to enter Cuba and go to Cuba that way. So one of
one of the options that was obviously facing him was going to Mexico and seeing
if he couldn't get into Cuba staying in Cuba would be a challenge, but
you know, he's been through this whole thing before he went to Russia and
ended ended up going through the drama of actually slitting his own wrist to stay
in Russia. Uh, you know, he's probably prepared. He's he's got
a much better resume now to go to Cuba than he had to go to
Russia. So just as part of a backstory is jumping up up point the
fact that he would you would find him exercising an option to go to Mexico
City to try to use that as a transit point to Cuba, leveraging Marina's
return, you know. And actually what he what he told the Cubans was
that that's why he wanted to be there. He wanted to get to Cuba
as part of his effort to return his wife and probably himself to Russia.
That's the story that was the story started to sell and presented at both the
consulate and the embassy. This would be an intermediary step to get her back
home. Now, as to whether he remains in Cuba or not, that's
up in the air, but he might be more welcome there because of his
FPCC activities et cetera. This seems to be the thing. And he's an
American quite frankly, in Cuba, he can be an American defector with some
credentials. I mean, he has been an activist, he's been a champion
in Cuba. If he could get in Cuba, he's got a marketable story,
much more than when he went to Russia. Right, So he could
be a notable as somebody who defected from the US to Cuba. You know,
it's a smaller place, bottom line. Okay, so all of this
starts to make more sense. But what about the proof itself that he's there?
Right? What do we have to work with here? Well, one
of the interesting things is when we asked that question, as I said,
the proof that we have there, as we have a whole series of correspondents
internally within Mexico City, back to CIA headquarters, ciadquarters, back to Mexico
City, copied to the FBI, several other agencies. All this happens before
the assassination. So I guess in terms of we demand a new we demand
a lot of evidence that was there because we all kinds of questions have been
raised, like, well, if he was there, white show, but
the actual paper trail, if you want to ask that that paper trail was
there and in place and in multiple offices. Weeks before the assassination, there's
paper spread around in a dozen different places talking about le Oswald being in Mexico
City and having been identified in Mexico City. The only time that it gets
to be a thing is after the fact. Everybody, well, of course,
we want to have proof. And the problem is then the question arises,
oh, well, people said that there were tapes and there were other
people and he was impersonated. Then I'm just saying before the assassination this wasn't
a real question. The paper trail shows that he was there. After it,
the whole thing is flummixed for a variety of reasons. What evidence do
we really have that he was absolutely there? Well, okay, we do
have, and everyone can choose not to accept any or all of this,
but we do have a transit visa application the the Cubans collected from him with
his picture on it. Okay, there's no doubt about that that is there.
There are all that doubts about the picture. Although the sweater in the
picture was shown to have been in his possession, Marina had not ever seen
that picture before. She recognized the clothing when she was asked about it.
What other evidence do we have there was there? There were a variety of
little bits and pieces of normal tourist type things that you would carry back from
Mexico to Texas, including a gift from Marina. He didn't disguise the fact
that he had been in Mexico from her. Now again, you choose not
to believe her or you, and you can believe all those little bits and
trinkets and you know, souvenir trash that you carried back from your trip and
throw away after you know, a couple of months, was all planted afterwards.
I mean, you know, but that you would have to believe that
all of that, those little bits and pieces were collected and planted after the
fact. So I guess that's part of the problem. What we don't have
u for any tourist's let's just say it with you, I've been to Mexico.
You know, can I prove that I was there because I still kept
the tourist trash? Okay, I keep everything, but we're asking, you
know, where the pictures where the tapes. It's really kind of unusual to
ask for that level of verification, especially when when Oswald was interviewed and when
Marina was interviewed after the assassination, the interviewers are asking both of them about
Mexico. It's not like nobody knew about Mexico hours later. Mexico was an
established fact. All this confusion and circumlation it just happens after the fact.
But in the hours after the assassination, there was absolutely no doubt that Lee
Harvey Oswell had been in Mexico. What was in doubt was what was going
on around him in Mexico. That's what Hoover was worried about. It's like
with somebody impersonating him doing things there. That's what like over the weekend.
You know, I both know. The real worry about Oswa was in Mexico
came from the Gilbert or Overado story, which says is coming from a CIA
source saying he wasn't just he was here for real, There's no doubt about
that, and he took money to kill the president. And our source says
that he heard him, and he has so much detail. He can describe
the girl that talked to him, the man that talked to him. He
can give you the name of her passport. He can tell you where she
lives. You know, that's what was wearying where Itchington d C and like
the days after the assassination, because that's explosive, right So, and Mexico
City was supporting it. Think about this again, at the time, the
ambassador, the CIA station chief, and David Phillips were all supporting that story.
And David Phillips would go on to support that story even in his testimony
to the HSCA and even in multiple books he wrote after the fact. So
again we're faced to we want proof, whereas you know, those guys just
wanted to use it, right right. So, look we've gone almost an
hour here, okay, And I know it's a it's easy to do because
there was so much packed into this and so much to question. I think
it's an adequate point to actually stop and say, okay, look we have
established here Oswald is in Mexico City. Now, as for what he did,
we started to cover that. But what does this all mean? How
did it come out? And how does it come out after the assassination?
The back and forth. Hoover's asking questions of the CIA. He doesn't feel
like they're being straight with him. I think all of that is what we
should cover the next time we get together, and I would put that all
under just like the title that you just gave. The CIA lied to us
about Mexico City, which is what Hoover said, and that's something we can
absolutely run through and is responsible. What we cannot do is we cannot do
we cannot trust the information that the CIA provided after the fact, for the
fact is not an issue, but the stuff that is. That's why the
HSCA actually concluded that they could not They were satisfied that Oswald had been at
the consulate and the embassy. They were not satisfied with how he got there,
the details of his movements necessarily you know, in and around the embassies
and consulates. That they were satisfied that he was there, but they did
not trust what the CIA was giving them for the rest of the story.
And they were right not to trust that. And one of the reasons for
that is it's not just what we have to remember is in Mexico City,
the relationship between the CIA and the Mexican police was something amazing. And when
you throw in the CIA telling the Mexican police what to do, they did
like arrest your in and keep her income Yuoncado. Then you have to raise
the issue of what else did they interfere with? Did they control what travel
records? You know, bus records, hotel records, was any of that
you know managed because it really all came through the Mexican police, and that's
where we have to go next. The FBI can't do that, They have
to work with the Mexican police. So there's every reason to suspect that.
What I'm not trying to do is come down and say we fully understand where
Oswald was and how he got there and everything that happened, because there's good
reason to question some of that data which is inconsistent, you know, and
that came from the Mexicans themselves. You know, it could have been inconsistent
because of their record keeping quite honestly, their record keeping not all that fantastic,
or by the DFS interference, like the you know, CIS says we
need this, we need to go collect a consistent set of of travel documents.
So nobody raises any questions, right, okay, right, what do
we have to erase? What do we have? Yeah? So yeah,
I think I think if you just if you just can't we can't trust the
Siahai in Mexico City. Is the next step? No, absolutely true,
and I think we we we got to begin the next time you and I
get together with the bus trip. Because here's the problem. Right away,
you'd think, okay, let's figure out how the guy got here. Did
he take public you know, something akin to a public transit was somebody giving
him a ride straight there? I mean, how did he get there?
Right? And the answer we start with there, it begins the problems,
doesn't it. It absolutely begins the problem. And I'm not going to say
that it's possible to resolve that problem. I think that we don't know how
he got there. I think there are internal conflicts in the information. One
of the things that there were internal contradictions. Even if you go back to
the first days the newspapers stories after the first couple of weeks, you'll find
a couple of stories. One story from a passport agent US passport agent at
the Mexican border who says, oh, he came across with other people,
right, you know, I remember it well, he wasn't by himself.
Another one says, oh, yeah, I saw him, he left,
he left in a car with other people. And it's kind of in a
way reminds you the fact, it reminds me of what we encountered in the
school book depository when the school book Depository company book Depository company manager says,
oh I saw Oswald right there in the entryway the book depository, right at
the time of the shooting. Oh okay. And you never see that story
that's in the in the first day paper out of Dallas, and you never
see that story again, right, You never see these passport agent stories again.
So we have to also cope with the fact that you know, there
are bits of fieces that don't support the official story that just vanish, all
right. And the thing is that you would think it would be very simple
when you have such a highly again surveiled area Mexico City, especially a highly
surveiled area. You got the CIA definitely having its interest. I mean,
we have a station there that is highly active, well staffed, right,
all of this going on, and the FBI should have access to things we
have a cozy relationship with, as you said, the Mexican I mean the
Mexican authorities. This should not be at least at least the CIA does.
Yeah, absolutely, we should have. Yeah, I'm not disagreeing with that
at all. We should have all sorts of stuff that we don't have.
We should have, and the fact that we don't, to me is a
flection on questions that have to be asked about the CIA, right, and
things that we're going on, and why we wouldn't have this information, what
they have to protect, what they have to suppress, what they have to
obfuscate. And to bring one point forward, which kind of is a segue
for us, is we have documents themselves from the CIA that says you people
in Mexico City cannot do certain things because the one thing that we cannot risk
is exposing the extent of our own operation of Mexico City. So one of
the things that we have to have to deal with is their number one charter.
Quite frankly, I had to say this. It doesn't seem to me
like it was the assassination of the president. It was protecting their operations,
whether they're surveillance or political action or dirty tricks or relation with the Mexican president.
I mean, if you surfaced information on this surveillance operation and this central
switching center that exposed the America, the the Mexican president, you could have
a diplomatic nightmare, uh, with the communist in Mexico quite ready to take
advantage of the whole situation. So anyway, we've got a the CIA is
its own motives and its own agendas, right, and then we have to
tackle the interaction between the FBI and the CIA, because here here we go,
Hoover, you know again, with just having dropped that whole lie on
Oswald just before this happens. Strange timing there, right, So I think
we got to open up with the trip to Mexico City yet again, but
from a different angle. Okay, he's there, but we got to figure
out where he stayed, how he got there, and all of that.
And I think we should do that in two weeks from now, will be
good for you. Yeah, absolutely, And just one final kind of commiment
that last than the one thing, the difference that we can note between the
FBI and the CIA. Yes, everybody that if you examined it after the
fact, almost everybody that screwed up with the FBI got sent to boise or
otherwise disciplined in some fashion. Nobody that screwed up with the CIA got disciplined
in any fashion. I always think that's kind of interesting. Yeah, you
know, did did anybody get in trouble for the malfunctioning cameras? Did anybody
get in trouble for the tapes that allege disappeared? Uh? Did anybody?
Seems like no? Uh so what does that indicate? Maybe you're gonna you're
gonna write at your own internal memo that says David Phillips, the head of
your counter intelligence activities in Mexico City, didn't know what was going on with
any of this, so you can't trust him. Shouldn't David Phillips have gotten
like downgraded if you don't know what's happening. Yeah, I would say that,
you know, since one of your primary jobs would be to check on
who's going to the Russian and Cuban uh, you know facilities, and you
have Oh our cameras didn't work. Whoops, we got the wrong guy.
Uh, we're not sure where the tapes went. I don't know. Sounds
to me like either that was the job that they were supposed to do,
in which case, of course there's no discipline. Mixing things up was what
they were supposed to do, or there's something else happening here. But anyway,
we'll we'll leave that for two weeks from that to go further see how
far we can go. And I honestly don't know how far we can go
with it, but we will see and see if we can figure out if
he was actually on the bus or what happened, and see if we can
track and trace the guy who should have shown up like a sore thumb,
you know. Again, one of the things that we will be able to
do for those that are listening, so that he's like, okay, we
will be able to tell a whole lot more about what was going on inside
the CIA. We may not know a lot more about the bus ride,
but we know a lot more about what was going on inside Mexico City station
and at headquarters and actually at JM Wave, which will become a big part
of the story. Oh yeah, well gee, I wonder why that is,
uh, but we're gonna find out. And also I think we shouldn't
gloss over too quickly the whole thing with the the Mexican Police and their role
in a few to different things that occur here and in the aftermath of it,
and trying to see about people's testimony and all that kind of good stuff.
And can we track down people who do we have arrested or taken into
custody I should say properly, right and why? Okay? Oh? Also
contradictions and people bring this up all the time and used to be very popular
in the documentaries Larry as well, know, the idea that people are describing
different people being Oswald in these places. I mean, at one point,
I don't know, no picture do I see a leeve Rby Oswald where you
can say, you know, he looks like a very light blondehaired guy.
Doesn't work, you know, And one description, the funny thing is one
of those mismatched descriptions does look a lot like the guy who we get the
photographs of that they call the mystery man. Right, somebody actually gave at
the Russian embassy, at the Russian embassy, although where were the pictures taken?
The pictures were taken at the Russian Embassy. Yeah, so I'm just
saying, you have pictures taken there of this guy who's clearly not Lee Rby
Oswald, and this is the guy they described as Lee Rby Oswald. Oh.
Yeah, And I think we can get into the fact that that seems
to have been done for a purpose. See. One of the problems is
that where we get convoluted things that were done for a purpose before the assassination
assume an entirely new context after you know, something that you did that was
perfectly acceptable, there was nobody was ever going to know about. This is
tradecraft, this is practice. It's internal that made perfect sense before the assassination.
After the assassination is a problem. Yeah, it's explained it because if
you explain it, you expose what you do. And we have to accept
that. That is always an issue. Do we prefer to look stupid or
do we prefer to expose ourselves? And by the way, what does my
boss think about that? Would my boss prefer that I just look like an
idiot or I blow apart his ole operation? Oh? By the way,
and one of the things that we will be talking about in regard to Duran
and others is there were serious ongoing operations with several of these people in the
Cuban consulate that were fully live at the time of the assassination and after the
assassination. So again we have to deal with the fact that you know,
as I said, Hoover wasn't who were, but he didn't really have ongoing
operations. He can discipline anybody when he wants, whenever he wants. The
CIA is a bit of a different boat with especially some of their dirty tricks
blackmail operations, right right. And that's the other fun thing is that also
with the CIA, just as a teaser here, you know, sometimes you
have to implant some disinformation in certain operations because you intend for some of it
to get exposed to a party that you know, you might in a one
dimensional sense think well, this party should never ever get a hold of this
information. But you might intentionally plant disinformation in an information stream, and indeed
pictures of somebody that are definitely not that person could be useful if you're trying
to mislead someone just saying okay, you know, hypothetically, Larry. Yeah,
And we'll continue this discussion in two weeks with Larry Hancock. But once
again, if you go to Larry dash Hancock dot com you'll be able to
follow Larry's work. But we're also looking forward to a book length manuscript on
which, by the way, is it going to be completely published into a
book? Are we sure of that yet? Or oh yeah, it's definitely
a book. It's an edit now it will be a book. I don't
know how long it will be when it's all told, but probably somewhere between
two hundred and thirty and two hundred and fifty pages, right, And it's
a new look at Oswald. And yeah, this may play a major role
what we're talking about tonight may play a major role in part of the book.
But this is not going to be the whole thing. Just letting you
guys know that, Yeah, this is going to be an interesting reevaluation,
re examination, and a different appraisal if you will, of the historical figure
that is Lee Harvey Oswald. Anything you want to say before we cut this
off for now, And like as I think we'll look forward to to next
week, we can't, as we always can, we can't answer every question.
If we could, you know, this would have been cleared up a
long time ago. But I think one of the things that we'll be able
to draw it in the conversation is maybe a better understanding of what we can't.
You know, what what has made this so complex and so confusing and
raise so many questions, And part of it we've discussed tonight, either somebody
wasn't doing their job at all, or there's more going on here than meets
the eye. And what we need to talk about is there's probably more going
on than meets the eye. And you know, it's better to look stupid
than fill in the blank. Well, right, And I suspect that when
it comes to the CIA, you know, much like with many other failures
of intelligence, right that occur in other circumstances. It seems to me like,
yeah, it's acceptable to appear incompetent briefly, so long as your bosses
know what's really going on. It doesn't matter if on the surface it looks
in competent ridiculous, you know, as if somebody didn't do their job,
because maybe they were doing their job. And that's the difference. The CIA
plays the long game always, which I hate. The FBI tends to play
short games, right, But the CIA, it always plays these long,
complex games and along the way, if they blow apart at any point,
it's very embarrassing. But they're always looking at long games. And speaking of
the long game, like I said, I think we're gonna we're gonna start
with, yeah, the bus trip. And oh, by the way,
you know what about the FBI and what was it that they were figuring out
regarding this, and so on and so forth. So I think we'll start
there next next time we get together. But in the meantime, yeah,
this is going to be a continuing conversation I look forward to and by the
way, I've gotten a little peak at some of what Larry has written regarding
this, and I can't wait to see the whole thing done, because it's
going to be Yeah, I think you just want to get it finished.
But to me, this is going to be a brand new and unique furtherance
of the study when it comes to the historical figure known as Lee Harvey Oswald.
Now, are we going to solve the assassination with this, Maybe not,
but I think we're gonna get a more honest appraisal once again of the
historical character that we know as Lee Rby Oswald. I think there's been some
mistakes made due to the lack of information in some cases, and due to
people cozying up to certain pieces of information and refusing to look at the rest,
the entirety the context, if you will, But that's never a problem
for Larry Hancock anyway. The O'Kelly effect is done for tonight. Like I
said, We'll get back together with Larry in two weeks, but I'll be
back tomorrow night with more anyway, Larry Dash Handcock dot com. I highly
recommend all of his books, read them, follow Larry, and you'll hear
from them again in two weeks. On this show, Wall Stream, Window
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go ahead, call it the truth about the JFA assassination. Right, Well,
what do you want to know any Baker's wild claim Oswald girlfriends he knew
Ruby and Barry answer weapons? Really, I imagine I could claim I have
four wheels. It doesn't make me a wagon. But okay, Oswald was
on the building and trying to prevent the murder of John Kennedy. Come on
now, has a real effort on the DAFA assassination. Blaim. Go to
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