WEBVTT

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Hello, and welcome to Open Mind
UFO Radio. This is your host,

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Alejandro Rojas, and I am here
with Martin the Rambling Man Willis Ramblin.

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Yes, on the road again,
yep, once again. You're always out

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there and about there. Well,
it's because I live in a remote area

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in Maine, where you know,
you have to go somewhere to be somewhere.

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So that's what I'm doing today.
You have to go somewhere to be

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somewhere. I get it though.
Actually yeah, yeah, Well luckily I'm

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not far from some civilization, but
it is. It is pretty remote.

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You know. It's three hours,
three to four hours to get to Boston,

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and that's where I do all my
work. So that's that's what's going

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on. Yep, what a commute. Yeah, too much. Anyway,

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let's see, we've got UFOs to
talk about, lots of stuff to talk

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about. I had. Have you
had doctor Michael Masters on your show?

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I believe you have. Oh I
have. What a nice guy he is.

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I really really enjoy talking to him. Mm hmm. Yep. This

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is the first time I've had him
on the show. I wanted to wait

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till after the UFO Congress because he
is I was one of speakers at the

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twenty nineteen International UFO Congress and you
can get his DVD on the UFO Congress

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store. You can also watch him. I'll make sure and get this up

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by the time of the show.
But you can see him on the video

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on demand at video dot Ufocongress dot
com, or you could go to Ufocongress

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dot com and you can click the
link for the videos on demand and see

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him there. But there are several
videos up on the video on demand.

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But who is this Michael Masters.
I'm so excited about his topic because I

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really feel and have felt that this
is a topic that should be given more

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consideration in the UFO field. And
that is you know, his lecture title

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was could Alien simply be Us?
But from the future? And he actually

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has a book out there on this
called Identified Flying Objects A Multidisciplinary Scientific Approach

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to the UFO Phenomena. And there
are a couple phrases in there in particular

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that are important, such as,
you know, the multidisciplinary scientific approach because

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like a lot of scientists have said, and a lot of researchers have said,

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you know, people that are part
of the scientific coalition for UAP research.

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You know, a group with like
Robert Pollin Rich Hoffman have talked about,

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is that really you need a whole
lot of different scientists to look at

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all the different perspectives and including his, which is could aliens be from the

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future. Now, he already is
credentialed and to speak about he has expertise

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to speak about this. He's a
professor of biological anthropology. So he looks

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at it from the perspective of,
Okay, here's the evolution of human beings,

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and if you were to continue that
evolution, you know, we would

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look a lot like aliens that are
described. He also gets into the physics

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and you know, okay, if
these are people from the future, what

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would the physics be and what would
a device be like that would be able

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to get us in the past.
These are just some of kind of the

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bigger categories of topics that he talks
about. But when he breaks all of

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these things down, it's extraordinary in
his research that he finds so many correlations

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and similar you know, similarities to
what people describe to what you know,

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the science shows would be kind of
humans or the technology, the evolution of

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the technology and the biology. So
it's fascinating. I absolutely, I highly

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highly recommend people watch his lecture because
it's very rich in information. In this

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interview we break down some of that, but there's so much and all of

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it. I think it's really important
and it makes his argument stronger even than

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I expected. So I really think
people need to pay attention to this.

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I can't stress how important I think
this is, because really I really feel

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looking at his information, it's difficult
to dismiss this perspective, and I think

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it's just as valid a possibility.
Perhaps not for all of the phenomena,

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but for much of it then,
but it's just as valid as the extraterrestrial

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hypothesis. I agree one hundred percent. I didn't think I would before I

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started talking with him, but I'm
telling you what. He makes such a

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great argument. And by the way, I got to hang out with him

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one night out in Phoenix and we
sat and talked for hours and hours,

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and what a nice gentleman he is. He's really down to earth and very

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easy to talk to. But he
is also highly intelligent. His father was

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a veterinarian. He had this,
you know, interest of his study from

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early on and up, and he's
he makes the best argument for it of

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anyone I've ever heard. He said, it's not unique to him. It's

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not, you know, something that
someone else has not tried to attend to

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in the past. But his thoughts
and the way he's thought it all the

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way out, all the way down
to the skin pigment, everything is really

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very very interesting. Yeah, yeah, it's all really great. He's he's

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really funny too. I mean,
he comes across as a total nerd.

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He's a professor, and he is, I mean, because he's super smart

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and he's really into the details.
But yeah, actually you catch him on

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the side and he's really funny,
and he's a really cool dude. Like

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he's in a rock band. He's
just a cool dude. He is Yep,

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awesome. So well to the interview
coming up that people will be able

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to check out. I think you're
going to greatly enjoy it. I did,

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and I can't wait to talk to
him more. And I think I'm

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so excited that he has, you
know, kind of come out and felt

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comfortable writing this book and doing these
lectures because I think it's really important.

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Yes, I want to say something. I don't know if you mentioned this

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on your show. But I said
to him when I was in Phoenix hanging

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out with him, and I said, well, what do you think about

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scientists and you know, not taking
any of this seriously goes shame on them?

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And I thought that was like,
really, really good. And he

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said that he's actually approached a few
I can't remember the names, but he's

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approached a few people and said,
what's wrong with you? Why don't you

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at least take a look at this, you know, topic, So,

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you know, good for him for
that being an advocate. Basically, yeah,

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yeah, that's yet And it's a
great argument. I mean, Heinig

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would make that argument essentially, he
wouldn't put it as bluntly, but I

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think it deserves to be put bluntly
like that. But he would point out

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that, you know, you're not
doing your duty as a scientist by ignoring

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phenomena you can't explain just because it
can't according to you know, you're unjustified

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conclusion as it can't happen, right, So exactly, blickly, it seems

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things are changing though, Yeah,
yeah, you see it moving that way

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a little bit. Sure, yep, it sure is. So one of

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the reasons things are changing is because
of all the UFOs in the news,

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lots of positive movement forward. Of
course, the government being more open,

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a bit more open at least to
the idea, and so it's really exciting.

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So I'm assuming that some of the
news that you may have for US

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is along these lines. Well,
actually it's negative the other way around.

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But I do want to address the
negative part of it. And I don't

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want to say really negative. It's
it's just it's about Edward Snowden. This

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is you know, this came out
through CNN that he searched the CIS networks

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for proof that aliens exists, and
here's what he found. And you know,

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he goes through it. You know
that they they start out this article

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as you know, for all the
area fifty one stormers, chemtrail believers and

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climate change deniers. So he's kind
of like this article kind of groups the

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you know, people that have thoughts
about UFOs in kind of that whole fringe

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area. Again, it kind of
like a step backwards in a way,

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and it said Edward Snowden has searched
the depths of the US intelligence networks and

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can report the conspiracy theories are not
true. As a former employee of the

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CIA and contractor for the National Security
Security Agency, Snowden had access to some

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of the nation's most closely held secrets, and like all curious mind, like

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any curious mind with access to the
CIA's version of Google might do, he

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went to search for the answers to
some of the society's most pressing questions.

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And it turns out the US government
is not aware of any intelligent extraterrestrial life.

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He says, for the record,
this is quote. As far as

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I could tell, aliens have never
contacted Earth, or at least they haven't

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contacted US intelligence. Soden writes this
and his recent memoir memoir Permanent Record.

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So I want to address this for
a couple of in a couple of different

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ways. First of all, I
don't know if he had, if any

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of this, if any of this
information was part of the intelligence, if

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it could be compartmentalized where he couldn't
he couldn't easily access, that's, you

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know, one question. Or if
there was information, you know, according

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to Chris Mellen, when I talked
to him, you know, a few

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years ago, he said he wouldn't
be surprised if anything was put out into

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the private sector. So it couldn't
be part of you know, an intelligence,

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a congression, subpoena or anything you
know, in the future, just

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to get it and you know,
kind of like in the secret server type

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of thing, you know, to
get it away and protected, you know.

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And I'm not saying that any of
these things have indeed happened, and

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I'm not saying that Edward Snowden was
wrong in his search and he's wrong by

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his thoughts on what he found.
I'm just saying that it shouldn't be considered

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a closed case in my opinion,
and that it's possible that the information is

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there hard to find, or the
information isn't a different, you know,

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compartment, so to speak. Yeah, I agree with you. He you

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know, from what I understand,
the information that he revealed was not all

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that high level. It was classified
information, but you know, there are

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levels of classification and it were the
information he had access to was not some

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of the higher level stuff, but
still, you know, stuff we didn't

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want to share because as we saw
from the releases, you know, it

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was much of it was embarrassing to
the United States. So and I actually

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watched his interview with Joe Rogan on
this topic, and he was essentially telling

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Joe, I know you want there
to be aliens, but at least he

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couldn't find it. But he said
something interesting about conspiracies. He's like,

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I'm not saying I don't want people
to think that I'm trying to say conspiracies

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aren't real, because they are.
I mean, all of this were conspiracies,

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right, And he was talking about
how, you know, practically everything,

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there's so many conspiracies, and what
he means by that is people conspiring

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to do something that they might not
want others to know about. That's kind

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of how things work. That happens
a lot. That's why we have NDA's,

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that's why we have but h So
that was his point, and his

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point was that at least he couldn't
find anything on any of those topics,

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and he believed at least when it
came to aliens that he feels like he

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sniffed around enough where he would have
seen some sort of information were there to

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be any. But you know,
that's the thing is one person. I

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know you can talk to many experts
on this. When it comes to programs,

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and people have talked about, well, you know, if there's special

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access programs, then he might not
know about them, and that's true,

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you know, black projects essentially,
but other people make the point that he

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also didn't come up with a tip. He didn't know about a tip.

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So you know it's right because he
he what is he been in Russia now

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for what is that five years?
Four or five years? So this is

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so pre prior to when he left
and went to Hawaii wherever it was,

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or trying to with all that information
that was a tip was in place,

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right, Is that what you're saying, Yes, that's what I'm saying.

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Well, a tip's been around since
two thousand and seven, and you know,

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he apparently didn't wasn't aware of a
tip h and a tip wasn't even

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really uh some of the informations classified
from what I understand, but it's not

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really you know, much of it
wasn't. You know, we're getting some

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of it. We've gotten some of
it in in FOIA requests. And also

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you know the letter that Reid had
put out where he requested that a tip

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get special access program uh certificate or
I mean essentially getting that level. They

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were denied. So yeah, so
those are some good points. I think

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that it's to me, it is
telling that he found that it shows that

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at that level there's not a bunch
of conversation going on. I think it

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shows personally more along the lines of
kind of the model that most of the

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people in the government have have kind
of given us and including to the stars,

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is that you know, there's it's
kind of like and this is what

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I've gotten for a long time.
This is what John Alexander has always said,

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is that the UFO issue is kind
of a hot potato. It's ignored.

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They totally ignore it. There have
been, you know, little investigations

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here and there. At even Harry
Reid when he started a tip, they

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wanted to hide any inquiries they put
into it because they didn't want to be

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embarrassed by it. So Harry Reid
was able to successfully keep the project under

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the radar. So any other projects, it must not be too difficult for

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them to keep them under the radar
if Harry Reid was able to do it

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with a tip, So yeah,
he might not know. It's interesting information,

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but like you said, it's certainly
not conclusive. But I can see

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the tendency of some journalists to go
there to kind of pretend like, you

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know, oh yeah, there must
not be anything to this because Snowden couldn't

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find anything, because that's a fun
easy way for them to get some to

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write a story, whereas you know, it's not really completely accurate of the

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situation. If this this story came
out the day after that, I debated

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Seth shostand from SETI on UFOs.
Now, if it had come out the

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same day, he would have used
that as a tool, I know,

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one hundred percent. Well, there's
your proof exactly. They don't exist,

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so and it will be used as
a tool. And you know, one

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of the things I didn't even think
about that you brought up is there are

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different levels of a classificate of you
know, some of something being classified.

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What is it the ultra whatever they
call it, the top classification. I'm

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not really sure what it's called.
But he did not have access to any

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of the higher end classified documents.
Is that so? Well? Not all?

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He did have some. I mean
he did have from what I understand,

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he did have access to some programs
because he was working on certain things

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that he had clearances for that,
but not all. Like he had clearances

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for some of the stuff that he
was really concerned about, and he revealed

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such as the company's you know,
gathering information on Americans. And that's what

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his problem was, that he you
know, felt that that was all illegal

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at technical was and that you know, people need to know about it.

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But yeah, but just because you
have you know, access, you're not

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going to have He even makes the
point to say, there's a big deal

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that that to not have others know
what you're working on, that it's a

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big deal. You know that if
you have top secret clearance, that you

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not share with other top secret clear
holders what you're doing, that they don't

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ask you clear and that they don't
share that information, the need to know

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type of thing. I've talked to
my brother in law who had a high

219
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clearance level at Los ALMOL slabs,
and he basically told me the same thing,

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right, you know, that they
wouldn't you know, even though someone

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you know therese I forget how many
thousands of people work there, but even

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though someone had the same you know, clearance, that they would not discuss

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they were not able to discuss anything
that didn't include the need to know.

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Yeah. Yeah, and there are
you know, yeah, there are like

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SAP projects that are off the books, so that are for instance, not

226
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mentioned in the budget and so yeah, you know, those are going to

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be very important. There's are going
to be things that very limited numbers of

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people know about. So it's possible
that there are, But it doesn't even

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really matter because in the to the
star scenario, let's say to the stars,

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what they've revealed or what they've gotten, or I should say a tip

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what you know kind of the what
Alizonda is shared. Even if that is

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all there is, it demonstrates there
was an active investigation and is an ongoing

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active investigation and now increased investigations,
it seems from the Navy of the UFOs.

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So that argument that used to be
made that the government doesn't take it

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seriously is now blown out of the
water. That's right, should people like

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Shostak make that argument? Obviously people
did see, uh, there was an

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intro there, there was a need
to look into this stuff. For instance,

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during this talk I had with Seth, he said something about, you

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know, he has friends that know
exactly what have looked at those videos and

240
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know exactly what they are. You
know, you know, he had he

241
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had all the answers, and then
he said, what I think the best

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zing that I was able to do
in that whole talk because he said,

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to me, what in the UFO
world is the evidence that you could put

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in the Smithsonian? I said,
I just said to him, well,

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could you put dark matter in the
Smithsonian? And so anyway, he said,

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I forgot what he said, something
about the rotation of the universe or

247
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something. I don't know, But
anyway, but you make a great point.

248
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And you know, his argument about
the rotation of the universe or whatever

249
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he decided to spew is a hypothesis. It's not even that it's you know,

250
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it's a it's kind of a hypothesis. It's he's giving you evidence that

251
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there's a mystery. He's doing the
same thing that we're doing in UFOs exactly,

252
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is that there's a there's evidence for
an unknown phenomena that's trying to be

253
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described. Yes, it's such a
great question that you asked, and I

254
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think it. You know, I
can't wait to listen to the debate because

255
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I haven't yet, and I'm so
excited to listen because it sounds like you

256
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did an excellent job. That question
you asked is an excellent question because yeah,

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there's a phenomena that's a preserved we
don't know what it is, we

258
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place this term dark matter on it. Even the lady who was the first

259
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to identify the phenomena of the expanding
universe does not believe in dark matter.

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She doesn't believe that's the answer.
Yeah, even the scientists who discovered that.

261
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So he may be saying, oh, well, this is why there's

262
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dark matter. Well, the scientists
who discovered the phenomena that is answered by

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this potential of the existence of dark
matter doesn't believe in that. So it's

264
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exactly the same. This is a
scientific question that needs to be answered,

265
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and why they don't want to take
on that challenge is an interesting question.

266
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I don't understand. I think that
he's worried that and it may be more

267
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of a marketing pr thing. They
may be worried that it will take a

268
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lot of the energy or focus away
from them because it's more exciting to look

269
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into, you know, more potentially
alien evidence. I don't know, but

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hopefully that's what happens, and that
is slowly what's happening. We just need

271
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more science to take this seriously and
exactly. That may be frustrating for him,

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but hey, things change, and
I think, you know, if

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he was smart, he would get
in front of this and they would embrace

274
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the whole idea of all of these
unanswered questions, because then they could play

275
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a pretty big role in it instead
of just kind of frustratingly give some uncharacteristically

276
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terrible, unscientific answers to these questions. Well, I'm surprised, you know,

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Seth actually hasn't retired. I had
no idea he was seventy six years

278
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old. But he's still at it, and I don't think he feels like

279
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he's going to be going away anytime
soon. But I do believe that,

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you know, if someone fits into
his shoes, it's probably going to be

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along the same line, you know. I mean, for instance, they

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have to have a drive, a
real serious drive constantly for funding study for

283
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one. So who knows what they'll
be getting in there, But it would

284
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be difficult for them to do if
they were citing on the side that,

285
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you know, UFOs could have something
to it. I think it would be

286
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tougher for them to get their funding. Yeah, maybe, yep. There

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are a lot of concerns, a
lot of real world issues. It's always

288
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very complicated. It's more than black
and white. It's always you know,

289
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it's really hard, and we have
to understand all of these little issues.

290
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It may seem boring, or it
may seem not as exciting or or sexy

291
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as talking about the craft or the
creatures. But if we truly want to

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understand the nuances of how this affects
our culture and how we can more profoundly

293
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and you know, affect a change
in culture, then we all need to

294
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really understand all of these various nuances. So that's what that's what's exciting about

295
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all of this. That's what's exciting
about you know, I think the kind

296
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of niche that maybe you and I
are some others are in here and looking

297
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and examining on some of all of
that because we also then get kind of

298
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insight into the fruits of those efforts, which is really exciting. Over the

299
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years, because there has been so
much progress in you know, the public

300
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and the mainstream accepting this topic.
I think so too. It's a real

301
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good time. I'm glad I'm around
during this time of it. Yeah,

302
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you know, I really really am. How are we doing on time?

303
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We've gone over, so we better
end it here. But it was a

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great discussion. Thank you so much
for joining again. Absolutely my pleasure.

305
00:25:49.440 --> 00:25:55.279
And let's go ahead and get to
our interview with Michael Masters right after this

306
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break. I am happy to welcome
to the show for the first time.

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Michael Masters. Hello, Hello,
good to be here. Thanks for having

308
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me on. Yes, our pleasure, my pleasure. So you had a

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fascinating lecture at the recent twenty nineteen
International UFO Congress and it was something I

310
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was really looking forward to. It's
a topic I love, and you know,

311
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someone with your qualifications and actual biological
anthropologist, you know, speaking on

312
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this was very exciting for me because
this is kind of an area I feel

313
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isn't pursued enough. And we'll get
into that. But I guess what was

314
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it like for you? Given your
background? Do you do lectures on other

315
00:26:59.400 --> 00:27:03.880
topics a professor? So you do
them often? Yeah, every Tuesday and

316
00:27:03.920 --> 00:27:08.720
Thursday for about three hours. I
give lectures on various topics and always related

317
00:27:08.720 --> 00:27:15.480
to anthropology. I teach a number
of different classes from intro anthropology up to

318
00:27:15.920 --> 00:27:25.400
upper level macroeconomic economic anthropology. Also
teach forensic anthropology and it's kind of a

319
00:27:25.400 --> 00:27:29.759
fun class. A lot of osteology
and anatomy, and we bury a skeleton

320
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out behind campus here and have the
students dig it up and investigate a murder

321
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scene. So yeah, and then
I also go to academic conferences. The

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big one in my field is the
American Association of Physical Anthropologists meeting, and

323
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I just submitted a couple abstracts to
present down there in LA in April,

324
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I believe it is. So yeah, I'm doing a lot of lectures both

325
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in and out of the UFO topic, but it's great too to bring in

326
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the anthropology side. A lot of
what I talked about in my lecture at

327
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the UFO Congress was very much related
to what I talk about my classes.

328
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There's a lot of overlap there,
for sure. And what was it like,

329
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I mean, were you kind of
nervous to bring to come talk to

330
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a UFO conference audience? Did you
know what to expect? Well, I'd

331
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just given a talk at the Muffan
fiftieth anniversary meeting about a month before,

332
00:28:36.119 --> 00:28:40.039
and that I didn't really know what
to expect going into that one. That

333
00:28:40.200 --> 00:28:45.759
was my first big conference talking about
this stuff, and it was interesting.

334
00:28:45.000 --> 00:28:55.880
There was a very stark divide between
the audience and the other people at the

335
00:28:55.920 --> 00:29:02.240
conference who were presenting and doing panels
and things. The audience was tremendously receptive,

336
00:29:02.279 --> 00:29:04.960
and there was just a great,
big crowd that gathered after the talk

337
00:29:06.039 --> 00:29:11.400
and a lot of interest, but
just so much skepticism and I would say

338
00:29:11.400 --> 00:29:18.200
bias on behalf of a lot of
the other presenters. It was strange.

339
00:29:18.240 --> 00:29:22.400
There was even a sort of a
confrontation, I guess you could say,

340
00:29:22.400 --> 00:29:27.279
in one of the panels that I
was on, somebody just said something very

341
00:29:27.640 --> 00:29:32.680
blatantly biased and then took the microphone
away and said it on the other side

342
00:29:32.720 --> 00:29:37.200
of him, so I couldn't even
respond to what he said. But it

343
00:29:37.279 --> 00:29:41.000
was very different coming down to Phoenix
for the International UFO Congress. It was

344
00:29:41.079 --> 00:29:48.200
much more open minded, just a
really great experience. So it was tremendously

345
00:29:48.200 --> 00:29:53.599
refreshing for me coming from one to
the other, because I was ready to

346
00:29:53.680 --> 00:29:59.359
be met with criticism and skepticism again, but it was quite the opposite.

347
00:29:59.440 --> 00:30:04.960
There was a really just great energy
and the sense of camaraderie and collaboration at

348
00:30:04.960 --> 00:30:08.920
that particular event. So so yeah, I was a little nervous, but

349
00:30:10.000 --> 00:30:14.720
for probably different reasons than most people
would probably think. Well, it's a

350
00:30:15.079 --> 00:30:21.000
very interesting observation, especially right now, because you know, at the Congress.

351
00:30:21.039 --> 00:30:26.680
Of course we do. That's one
of our are deciding factors are people

352
00:30:26.720 --> 00:30:33.440
who essentially are very professional, work
well with others, and that's actually more,

353
00:30:33.480 --> 00:30:38.359
almost more important than their topic,
at least that their topic is something

354
00:30:38.440 --> 00:30:42.599
they're honestly looking at. You know, it may be wild or fringe,

355
00:30:42.680 --> 00:30:47.319
but if it's as long as you
know, they're not deceiving people and they're

356
00:30:47.359 --> 00:30:51.240
honestly, you know, trying to
figure things out, that's what we're looking

357
00:30:51.279 --> 00:30:56.160
for. But in this field right
now, you're kind of a disruptor,

358
00:30:56.200 --> 00:31:02.519
and there's other disruptors, and it's
interesting to that. I think what happens

359
00:31:02.640 --> 00:31:07.680
is when you're challenging others' worldviews,
especially those who are kind of on the

360
00:31:07.720 --> 00:31:14.480
stage professing and trying to convince people
of their worldviews. Then I could see

361
00:31:14.519 --> 00:31:18.559
why those people in particular, who
are trying to push it their thing are

362
00:31:18.759 --> 00:31:25.200
are going to be a little more
They're going to feel a little more infringed

363
00:31:25.279 --> 00:31:30.119
upon by someone like coming in and
then come across as combative and yeah,

364
00:31:30.240 --> 00:31:34.640
no, And it's funny too because
I realized that, you know, but

365
00:31:34.720 --> 00:31:40.440
it's different too because I'm not coming
into it trying to proclaim some sort of

366
00:31:40.480 --> 00:31:44.200
truth. I'm just saying, I
think we need to look seriously at the

367
00:31:44.279 --> 00:31:48.839
question of time travel and human evolution
and cultural evolution, and could these individuals

368
00:31:48.839 --> 00:31:53.279
be us and putting forth as much
scientific evidence for that as I can,

369
00:31:53.839 --> 00:31:59.720
but not discounting any other theory.
I think with a phenomenon this complex,

370
00:32:00.079 --> 00:32:06.680
to consider everything and especially valid hypotheses
related to this phenomenon. So yeah,

371
00:32:06.720 --> 00:32:10.039
it's unfortunate when people see me as
a disruptor because I'm not trying to take

372
00:32:10.079 --> 00:32:14.519
away from anything anybody else is doing. I'm just trying to offer up what

373
00:32:14.559 --> 00:32:20.839
I believe is a rather parsimonious explanation
for what's going on. But I also

374
00:32:20.920 --> 00:32:27.400
understand that knee jerk reaction to it. I think a lot of them sort

375
00:32:27.400 --> 00:32:31.640
of expected me to, I guess, kind of cower and hide. But

376
00:32:32.839 --> 00:32:37.319
what I've been met with from members
of the UFO community only certain members.

377
00:32:37.359 --> 00:32:43.720
A lot of people are very open
minded, but it's nothing compared to what

378
00:32:43.759 --> 00:32:47.319
we face in academia. I mean, people are always at each other's throats

379
00:32:47.319 --> 00:32:52.799
and trying to cut each other down, and especially in paleoanthropology. If you

380
00:32:52.799 --> 00:33:00.319
look at any of the research and
the just all out brawls that form over

381
00:33:00.440 --> 00:33:06.960
questions of new homin and species and
how we designate certain species and tool types.

382
00:33:07.079 --> 00:33:10.880
It's it's brutal, so coming from
that. Really, I've got pretty

383
00:33:10.920 --> 00:33:14.440
thick skin, so I'm not I'm
not worried about it doesn't bother me at

384
00:33:14.440 --> 00:33:17.960
all, but it is it is
nice to see and to interact with really

385
00:33:17.960 --> 00:33:22.839
open minded people as well. M
hmm. Well, I think the other

386
00:33:22.519 --> 00:33:27.839
you know, thing about your talk
is that which can be I guess,

387
00:33:28.240 --> 00:33:34.319
you know, a bit more challenging
for some, but which is so appreciated.

388
00:33:34.720 --> 00:33:37.240
I of course was excited to hear
someone talk on the topic, but

389
00:33:38.359 --> 00:33:45.519
little did I know how thorough,
how complete, and how much work you

390
00:33:45.720 --> 00:33:49.519
did. It's astonishing. In fact, you know, I really want to

391
00:33:49.599 --> 00:33:52.839
hit on a bunch of points today, but it would be impossible to hit

392
00:33:52.920 --> 00:33:58.920
on everything because you looked at this
from so many angles, and I think

393
00:33:59.039 --> 00:34:06.200
found in every position that you looked
at this from, you found credible information

394
00:34:06.279 --> 00:34:12.599
that supports the possibility. Yeah,
I mean one thing I've tried to do,

395
00:34:13.519 --> 00:34:16.960
Like it says in the title of
the book, it's a multidisciplinary scientific

396
00:34:17.000 --> 00:34:22.000
approach. If I just looked at
it from the human evolution side, I'd

397
00:34:22.039 --> 00:34:28.760
be missing the opportunity to tie together
a lot of things that also help explain

398
00:34:28.800 --> 00:34:34.880
this phenomenon. So yeah, I
really tried to bring into it evidence and

399
00:34:35.239 --> 00:34:38.840
not just you know, something that
came out and popular mechanics or something,

400
00:34:38.880 --> 00:34:46.000
but real peer reviewed scientific research from
academic journals from astrobiology and astronomy and physics

401
00:34:46.400 --> 00:34:52.320
in addition to those scientific studies from
anthropology, because I think really coming at

402
00:34:52.360 --> 00:34:59.599
it from all of these different fields
and providing a holistic approach and understanding for

403
00:34:59.639 --> 00:35:01.800
this phenomenon it's going to take that. It's going to take a lot of

404
00:35:01.840 --> 00:35:07.920
people working together too, across different
disciplines. I can only do so much

405
00:35:07.280 --> 00:35:13.960
as an anthropologist with some background and
training in physics and astronomy, but not

406
00:35:14.440 --> 00:35:19.400
that not being my primary field of
study. I can put things out there,

407
00:35:19.440 --> 00:35:23.239
but not to the same extent that
a physicist could or an actual astrobiologist.

408
00:35:23.360 --> 00:35:30.519
So I'm hoping that that as an
academic presenting these things, that we

409
00:35:30.559 --> 00:35:36.239
can bring more people in, more
scientists, more academics from those various fields

410
00:35:36.239 --> 00:35:40.960
who can help build upon what I've
sort of touched on from these different areas

411
00:35:42.000 --> 00:35:46.239
and really try to move it forward
collectively. So they started with your book,

412
00:35:46.320 --> 00:35:52.840
Identified Flying Objects, a multidisciplinary scientific
approach to the UFO phenomena, which

413
00:35:52.000 --> 00:36:00.000
is making me chuckle because I remember
that was pretty funny. I'll let you

414
00:36:00.079 --> 00:36:01.960
finish the story there, I get. I mean, you know, you

415
00:36:02.039 --> 00:36:06.239
get too tired. I'm pretty much, you know, kind of running on

416
00:36:06.360 --> 00:36:08.679
empty at the beginning of the conference, because setting it up is enough.

417
00:36:09.480 --> 00:36:15.079
I'm usually able to flow through pretty
well, but my brain just was struggling

418
00:36:15.280 --> 00:36:19.480
so much when I did your introduction, and I couldn't believe, you know,

419
00:36:19.519 --> 00:36:22.480
and I get prepared and I'm ready, but the title of your book

420
00:36:22.639 --> 00:36:28.440
just would not, for some reason
sit well in my brain. So yeah,

421
00:36:28.480 --> 00:36:30.960
I just really kind of stumbled through
that, and I thought it was

422
00:36:31.000 --> 00:36:36.199
great. It was a great way
to introduce the talk because I like to

423
00:36:36.719 --> 00:36:42.719
hit the stage with a lighthearted mentality, and that's a good way to start

424
00:36:42.719 --> 00:36:45.880
with a little chuckle and keep that
going. So no, I thought it

425
00:36:45.920 --> 00:36:51.840
was actually really fortuitous good because I
figured, you know, you seem to

426
00:36:51.880 --> 00:36:54.719
have a great sense of humor,
so I figured, hopefully it doesn't.

427
00:36:54.760 --> 00:36:59.039
I don't think he'll mind too much
more. Some people might have got real

428
00:36:59.119 --> 00:37:01.280
upset, so I thought it was
great, So thank you for that.

429
00:37:01.360 --> 00:37:05.320
I apologize for screwing up the book, but it all started with the book.

430
00:37:05.360 --> 00:37:09.039
So how did you come up with
the idea to actually write a book

431
00:37:09.079 --> 00:37:14.480
on this? Well, I was
actually very young. I was eight years

432
00:37:14.519 --> 00:37:21.519
old, wow, And I learned
about a UFO encounter my dad had before

433
00:37:21.559 --> 00:37:25.719
I was born, and I just
heard him telling the story, and not

434
00:37:25.840 --> 00:37:34.000
long after that he got communion by
Willie Strieber. And I remember seeing the

435
00:37:34.039 --> 00:37:37.440
cover of the book back then.
I think they might change the cover since,

436
00:37:37.480 --> 00:37:40.880
but I had this sort of your
archetypal alien figure on it, with

437
00:37:40.920 --> 00:37:45.360
the big head, the big eyes, the small face, and I just

438
00:37:45.440 --> 00:37:50.880
kind of had this mental image that
I've used on various things on my website.

439
00:37:51.119 --> 00:37:52.760
In the book, in chapter one, it shows sort of a simplified

440
00:37:52.840 --> 00:37:57.760
version of this, but just an
early hominin form, a modern human form,

441
00:37:57.800 --> 00:38:00.719
and then this alien form, and
it just sort of made me wonder

442
00:38:00.800 --> 00:38:04.800
if there could be a connection there. And what's really interesting about it.

443
00:38:04.920 --> 00:38:08.719
I haven't mentioned this before because it's
just something that has occurred to me recently,

444
00:38:08.800 --> 00:38:15.960
but I've been contacted by quite a
few people even just a little comment

445
00:38:16.079 --> 00:38:21.760
on Facebook or Twitter where people tell
me they've had the same idea, and

446
00:38:22.199 --> 00:38:25.320
without reading the book or knowing where
it came from, for me, saying

447
00:38:25.320 --> 00:38:29.920
that they were eight years old when
they thought of this too, And I

448
00:38:29.920 --> 00:38:32.960
thought, this is just a really
funny coincidence that so many people were the

449
00:38:34.000 --> 00:38:37.320
same age when the same sort of
thought occurred. And I'm sure it's just

450
00:38:37.320 --> 00:38:43.119
a coincidence, but it's been really
funny to see that in the last few

451
00:38:43.159 --> 00:38:45.840
months people just reaching out and saying, Hey, I've thought of this too.

452
00:38:45.880 --> 00:38:47.800
I think it makes a lot of
sense. And I was eight when

453
00:38:47.840 --> 00:38:52.079
I thought of this. I don't
know, it's just kind of a funny

454
00:38:52.159 --> 00:38:55.840
thing that I've noticed lately. So
you've been into the whole idea and thinking

455
00:38:55.880 --> 00:39:00.880
about it for since you were a
kid. Yeah, And it's why I

456
00:39:00.920 --> 00:39:07.920
went to school for physics initially during
my undergrad years, and then switched anthropology

457
00:39:07.840 --> 00:39:12.960
about halfway through. I think I
was a junior late sophomore in college.

458
00:39:13.800 --> 00:39:15.760
No, I knew I wanted to
pursue it over the long term, and

459
00:39:15.840 --> 00:39:21.199
I knew in order to do it
right and to really be able to understand

460
00:39:21.199 --> 00:39:24.760
it myself and to be able to
communicate about it to others that I needed

461
00:39:24.760 --> 00:39:32.800
to have a pretty broad and deep
knowledge of the different aspects of this phenomenon.

462
00:39:32.800 --> 00:39:37.119
So yeah, it's really been a
lifelong pursuit in that regard. Well,

463
00:39:39.519 --> 00:39:45.559
so, I guess throughout your academic
career as well, you've given it

464
00:39:45.760 --> 00:39:51.840
thought. I have. Yeah,
I didn't talk about it much just because

465
00:39:51.840 --> 00:39:57.480
of the stigma associated with and I
feel that fortunately that's finally starting to change.

466
00:39:58.480 --> 00:40:02.320
When I was a weird kid in
the back the class asking about the

467
00:40:02.400 --> 00:40:07.280
time, no nobody even knew I
was there, I mean alone with you

468
00:40:07.480 --> 00:40:10.320
or with friends, you know,
Oh, my friends knew what I was

469
00:40:10.400 --> 00:40:14.800
doing and why I was doing it, but in an academic setting. And

470
00:40:14.800 --> 00:40:17.199
I don't feel like I was pulling
the wool over anybody's eyes or anything.

471
00:40:17.320 --> 00:40:22.079
I was just there to learn things
that I needed to know to be able

472
00:40:22.119 --> 00:40:25.760
to do what ultimately I wanted to
do. But within you know, every

473
00:40:25.800 --> 00:40:30.920
project I worked on, every dig
I went on, I was just doing

474
00:40:30.119 --> 00:40:36.239
things in the same way anybody else
was, but but deeper down, and

475
00:40:36.320 --> 00:40:40.119
you know, within the recesses of
my mind, I was always sort of

476
00:40:40.280 --> 00:40:46.800
thinking about thinking about all of it. In the context of this extra tempestrial

477
00:40:46.920 --> 00:40:53.760
model, the possibility that they're just
are are distant descendants coming back through time.

478
00:40:54.519 --> 00:41:00.679
So and especially it was cool going
on digs and working in museums holding

479
00:41:00.320 --> 00:41:07.480
the ancestors of our species, three
point five million year old ancestors in my

480
00:41:07.599 --> 00:41:15.679
hands, and just the fossilized skulls
of really distant ancestors the tools they made.

481
00:41:15.320 --> 00:41:19.840
It really puts them in perspective and
gave me a really good sense of

482
00:41:19.880 --> 00:41:23.119
just how much more we could learn
if we had time travel technology now as

483
00:41:23.480 --> 00:41:30.360
modern palaeoanthropologists, that we wouldn't have
to just hold these broken, fragmented pieces

484
00:41:30.360 --> 00:41:35.000
of the past. We could just
look at them, observe them, combine

485
00:41:35.039 --> 00:41:40.119
cultural anthropology with biological anthropology, and
get a much deeper sense of what we

486
00:41:40.119 --> 00:41:47.559
were really doing beyond just the material
culture and the fossilized evidence. So yeah,

487
00:41:46.639 --> 00:41:52.760
it's been fun. I have no
regrets about picking the anthropology side of

488
00:41:52.840 --> 00:41:57.719
things, because, in addition to
all of the opportunities to travel, it's

489
00:41:57.800 --> 00:42:04.159
just a really interesting field look at
humans. You understand so much more about

490
00:42:04.519 --> 00:42:10.960
our behaviors and our political and economic
interactions from studying the very long history of

491
00:42:12.079 --> 00:42:15.400
these things and how how we got
to be the way we are today and

492
00:42:15.719 --> 00:42:19.079
looking at the past. I think
it's a really important field in general.

493
00:42:19.159 --> 00:42:23.960
So I'm really happy that I decided
to study aliens, I guess because I

494
00:42:24.400 --> 00:42:29.360
really enjoyed being an anthropologist, and
yeah, I still do. Well.

495
00:42:29.400 --> 00:42:31.519
It shows that, you know,
you've been thinking about this for a long

496
00:42:31.599 --> 00:42:35.719
time, because you know, you
have so many things that you touch upon,

497
00:42:35.920 --> 00:42:38.360
and we'll start to get into some
of these, but a little bit

498
00:42:38.880 --> 00:42:45.280
it seems like the beginning of your
argument is, you know, essentially we're

499
00:42:45.280 --> 00:42:50.760
seeing these craft that seem to be
advanced technology and you know, figuring out

500
00:42:50.880 --> 00:42:55.039
what could these be. A lot
of people feel and some people argue,

501
00:42:55.119 --> 00:43:00.760
you know, if you have a
Buyoutkams Raiser, that extraterrestrial advanced extraterrestrial civilization

502
00:43:00.679 --> 00:43:07.239
would be the best hit. However, you're arguing that, and you justify

503
00:43:07.280 --> 00:43:13.079
that argument. You know throughout your
lecture that the possibility of humans from the

504
00:43:13.119 --> 00:43:21.320
future is just as if not more
likely than extraterrestrials from another civilization. And

505
00:43:21.400 --> 00:43:27.360
so maybe, for instance, because
either one is a stretch. You know,

506
00:43:28.039 --> 00:43:30.639
I think that that at least you
and I could argue that and I

507
00:43:30.679 --> 00:43:37.039
think other listeners would would agree,
especially those scientific minded. And this is

508
00:43:37.039 --> 00:43:42.360
a problem that scientists such as those
with SETI layout as an issue, is

509
00:43:42.360 --> 00:43:47.519
that it's just really difficult, and
one of the difficulties is the actual physics

510
00:43:47.519 --> 00:43:53.760
of it. The distances are so
far. Yeah. Well, in the

511
00:43:53.800 --> 00:44:00.599
context of Oarkham's raiser and the principle
of parsimony, I would I would definitely

512
00:44:00.840 --> 00:44:07.480
advocate that this extra tempestrial model is
more parsimonious, especially compared to the extraterrestrial

513
00:44:07.519 --> 00:44:12.719
model, and not even outside of
the vast distances and the issues of time

514
00:44:12.760 --> 00:44:19.360
dilation and traveling those distances. And
we know we're here. We are here.

515
00:44:20.079 --> 00:44:23.599
We have very good evidence that we
exist on this planet and have for

516
00:44:23.639 --> 00:44:28.719
a long period of time. So
instead of saying that we're looking for something

517
00:44:28.760 --> 00:44:31.840
elsewhere that we don't know whether that
exists or not instantly, this is a

518
00:44:31.880 --> 00:44:37.599
simpler explanation because we are here,
and we have evolved, and we have

519
00:44:37.840 --> 00:44:42.920
changed morphologically and culturally, and if
those same changes continue into the future,

520
00:44:43.440 --> 00:44:47.199
we are likely to have more advanced
technology than we have today. We're likely

521
00:44:47.280 --> 00:44:53.599
to have more rounded neurocrania and smaller, more retracted faces and larger eyes and

522
00:44:54.119 --> 00:45:01.760
last body hair and all of these
things that are so ubiquitously described in instances

523
00:45:01.760 --> 00:45:07.760
of close encounters. We are likely
to have those same traits just based on

524
00:45:07.400 --> 00:45:14.320
six million year evolutionary trends with us
on this planet. So already it's a

525
00:45:14.400 --> 00:45:20.920
simpler, more parsimonious explanation because it's
talking about something that's tangible now that we

526
00:45:20.960 --> 00:45:25.679
can see and observe. But the
question of extraterrestrials, Yeah, there's the

527
00:45:25.760 --> 00:45:32.039
issue of the distances between Solar systems, the unlikelihood that we would have an

528
00:45:32.119 --> 00:45:42.639
advanced humanoid species, one that's so
similar to ourselves bipedalism and the same characteristics

529
00:45:42.679 --> 00:45:45.639
that we have in our neurocranium and
our post cranial anatomy, that they would

530
00:45:45.679 --> 00:45:52.239
evolve those same traits at the same
time on a planet close enough to us

531
00:45:52.360 --> 00:45:58.480
that we would have mutual contact and
the opportunity for visitation, or that they

532
00:45:58.480 --> 00:46:01.320
would do all of these things.
They would find us and then not even

533
00:46:01.480 --> 00:46:06.760
make their presence known, not say
hey, we're here, we're from this

534
00:46:07.199 --> 00:46:12.280
Solar system and we wanted to be
friends. That's never happened. It's always

535
00:46:12.360 --> 00:46:16.199
this sort of covert, very elusive
sort of interaction, which would make more

536
00:46:16.239 --> 00:46:22.800
sense in the context of time and
potential disruptions or over complications that can happen

537
00:46:22.800 --> 00:46:27.599
when you connect different periods of time. So yeah, I would very much

538
00:46:27.679 --> 00:46:32.400
stand by that that it is in
the context of Vacom's raisor a simpler explanation

539
00:46:34.360 --> 00:46:37.519
which all makes a lot of sense, and it continues to make even more

540
00:46:37.559 --> 00:46:43.159
sense when you break some of this
stuff down. So in particular that the

541
00:46:43.159 --> 00:46:50.079
biology that for instance, you go
over the bipedalism and how influential that has

542
00:46:50.199 --> 00:46:57.039
been on affecting kind of modern humans, but including you know, the shape

543
00:46:57.079 --> 00:47:00.400
of our head and the size of
our head and the shape of our face,

544
00:47:00.719 --> 00:47:07.280
and how if you took people in
the past and you look at people

545
00:47:07.360 --> 00:47:15.360
today, and if the trend continues
on the effects that our bipedal lasam has

546
00:47:15.400 --> 00:47:21.480
had, then in the future our
characteristics that are more like what we report

547
00:47:21.760 --> 00:47:25.079
as aliens looking like in particular little
gray guys with the big eyes and the

548
00:47:25.119 --> 00:47:30.719
big heads, that we will continue
to look more like that. Yeah,

549
00:47:30.440 --> 00:47:35.320
Yeah, And that's the thing is
I really tried to avoid any sort of

550
00:47:35.360 --> 00:47:40.599
speculation about what might happen between now
and then in our future. And I've

551
00:47:40.639 --> 00:47:43.760
heard this a lot, and back
when I was a kid, you know,

552
00:47:43.880 --> 00:47:50.719
drinking some beers talking about things about
living in space or having to live

553
00:47:50.800 --> 00:47:54.079
underground, or what might do this. But really that's just speculation. There's

554
00:47:54.079 --> 00:47:59.920
no way to know what will shape
our future revolutionary history. But in looking

555
00:48:00.159 --> 00:48:05.000
back that we don't have to speculate. We can see these long term trends

556
00:48:05.039 --> 00:48:12.480
and understand how they transpired over the
last six million years since we became by

557
00:48:12.519 --> 00:48:15.239
pedal. And you're right, it
is the fact that we stood up.

558
00:48:15.320 --> 00:48:19.199
Right. If you look at chimpanzees, our closest living relative on this planet,

559
00:48:19.400 --> 00:48:24.320
they remained quadrupedal, and they never
developed big round skulls and the ability

560
00:48:24.360 --> 00:48:28.320
to use their hands to make tools
in the same way we do. They

561
00:48:28.400 --> 00:48:30.679
also make and use tools, but
it's very simple. A lot of people

562
00:48:30.760 --> 00:48:34.960
don't realize that one of the main
reasons we are so intelligent, we have

563
00:48:35.039 --> 00:48:38.039
such big brains, is simply because
we stood up and our heads had to

564
00:48:38.159 --> 00:48:43.119
rotate down in order to see where
we were going in line with the horizon,

565
00:48:43.440 --> 00:48:50.199
and that caused a flexing of our
basicranium where it sort of became a

566
00:48:50.239 --> 00:48:54.320
more acute angle, essentially between the
anterior and the posterior cranial base, and

567
00:48:54.360 --> 00:48:58.840
then that opened up a lot of
space on the top of our skulls where

568
00:48:58.840 --> 00:49:00.840
a bigger brain could grow. And
then from that point on it is just

569
00:49:00.880 --> 00:49:08.480
sort of this runaway brain train where
intelligence and sexual selection and natural selection all

570
00:49:08.480 --> 00:49:15.360
help it grow larger and to become
more better integrated and wired and just more

571
00:49:15.400 --> 00:49:20.519
intelligent in general. So yeah,
I think that biopedalism is a very important

572
00:49:20.519 --> 00:49:25.239
part of understanding this connection between past, present, and future, because that

573
00:49:25.400 --> 00:49:30.519
is the trait that defines our lineage. A hominin is an upright walking human

574
00:49:30.559 --> 00:49:37.239
ancestor, and the fact that they
are always reported as being bipedal, I

575
00:49:37.280 --> 00:49:43.480
think that alone is a big connector
it's something that should be considered in the

576
00:49:43.519 --> 00:49:46.800
context of this theory. Yeah,
we're going to talk a lot more about

577
00:49:46.800 --> 00:49:51.000
this because I think this is one
of the really important parts, although there

578
00:49:51.039 --> 00:49:52.679
are a lot of them. But
we're going to take a short break,

579
00:49:53.000 --> 00:49:58.280
so those of you listening on the
radio will hear some commercials, the rest

580
00:49:58.320 --> 00:50:01.800
of you will hear a short music
interlude, and we'll be right back with

581
00:50:02.000 --> 00:50:07.760
doctor Michael Masters talking about whether or
not aliens could simply be us from the

582
00:50:07.760 --> 00:50:27.039
future. Hello and welcome back to
Open Mind GUFO Radio. I'm your host,

583
00:50:27.119 --> 00:50:32.400
Alejandro Rojas, and we have with
us a professor of biological anthropology,

584
00:50:32.480 --> 00:50:38.400
doctor Michael Masters, and we were
talking about bipedalism and how important it was

585
00:50:38.440 --> 00:50:44.360
for the development of modern humans.
And you know, one of the things

586
00:50:44.400 --> 00:50:46.960
you talked about is how when we
stood up, essentially the effects on our

587
00:50:47.000 --> 00:50:52.119
heads made our heads our skulls bigger
in the room for us our brains to

588
00:50:52.199 --> 00:50:55.920
grow and become more intelligent. And
you also mentioned in your lecture how being

589
00:50:57.039 --> 00:51:00.000
smart is just a dominant trait and
like you just say, kind of went

590
00:51:00.239 --> 00:51:04.400
like a runaway train. That was
a big deal. I mean, we

591
00:51:05.239 --> 00:51:07.639
being intelligent, you know, it's
something that continues on and we become more

592
00:51:07.679 --> 00:51:12.960
and more intelligent as time goes on, because it's been a really important trait.

593
00:51:13.079 --> 00:51:22.119
However, the bipedalism, you argue, is not something that likely would

594
00:51:22.199 --> 00:51:28.559
happen on another planet or another species, because it's not really kind of a

595
00:51:28.880 --> 00:51:37.000
just standing up itself is not necessarily
the best thing for a body. Yeah,

596
00:51:37.159 --> 00:51:39.559
and one of the things I try
to highlight to talk about it in

597
00:51:39.599 --> 00:51:47.440
the book and also mentioned it in
that particular lecture at International LOFO Congress.

598
00:51:47.519 --> 00:51:57.119
Is what are referred to as the
perils of being bipedal. There's really a

599
00:51:57.159 --> 00:52:05.559
lot of problems that we suffer from
being upright walking hominins on this particular planet

600
00:52:05.599 --> 00:52:09.840
with nine point eight meters per second
squared force of gravity, this acceleration constantly

601
00:52:09.880 --> 00:52:14.719
pulling down on us. And really, if you look across mammals, we

602
00:52:14.840 --> 00:52:20.039
are really one of very few that
are bipedal. A number of birds are,

603
00:52:20.199 --> 00:52:23.639
but as far as mammals, it's
really not very common, simply because

604
00:52:23.920 --> 00:52:30.199
it's problematic. And for us,
there's this evolutionary tradeoff where we suffer from

605
00:52:30.280 --> 00:52:36.199
knee problems and back problems and neck
problems and flat feet and shin splints and

606
00:52:36.199 --> 00:52:40.360
hernias and complicated births and all kinds
of other things vericose veins, hemorrhoids,

607
00:52:40.960 --> 00:52:45.639
and those things are bad. They're
negative traits. But in the context of

608
00:52:45.639 --> 00:52:52.639
the benefits of the intelligence that we
have experienced and this growth of knowledge and

609
00:52:53.039 --> 00:52:59.559
culture and technology, all of those
things have clearly outweighed the trade offs.

610
00:52:59.599 --> 00:53:05.639
The cause of being bipedal on a
planet of this size, And one argument

611
00:53:05.679 --> 00:53:09.039
I make in the context of astrobiology
is that the vast majority of planets that

612
00:53:09.079 --> 00:53:14.119
have been found as part of the
Kepler mission are much larger. It would

613
00:53:14.159 --> 00:53:20.119
seem that Earth is relatively small in
comparison to other planets in the universe.

614
00:53:20.199 --> 00:53:25.400
So if that's the case, we
wouldn't expect by pedalism to arise on other

615
00:53:25.480 --> 00:53:31.480
planets, even Earth like exoplanets that
are even a little bit larger than are,

616
00:53:31.559 --> 00:53:36.440
simply because of how rare it is
here and how many problems we suffer

617
00:53:36.960 --> 00:53:40.760
from as a result of it.
So, however, you know, it

618
00:53:40.800 --> 00:53:49.760
seems bipedalism was key to humans becoming
intelligent. Are there any other examples,

619
00:53:50.519 --> 00:53:55.519
you know, an animal world that
where a different trait or feature has allowed

620
00:53:55.679 --> 00:54:01.360
an animal's brain to increase in size. Yeah. Absolutely, there's all kinds

621
00:54:01.360 --> 00:54:07.280
of environmental pressures. Look at dolphins
there, they're not bipedal, they don't

622
00:54:07.800 --> 00:54:09.360
they don't even live on land,
for God's sakes. But they're one of

623
00:54:09.400 --> 00:54:15.760
the smartest animals that there is on
this planet. So no, I don't

624
00:54:15.920 --> 00:54:22.519
I don't try to advocate that bipedalism
is a prerequisite for intelligence. That's not

625
00:54:22.519 --> 00:54:29.880
not really the argument that I'm making. But okay, yeah, I know,

626
00:54:30.039 --> 00:54:35.000
just that it was very instrumental in
shaping our own intelligence on this planet.

627
00:54:35.679 --> 00:54:39.000
But but that doesn't mean that all
other organisms would have to have that.

628
00:54:39.039 --> 00:54:44.719
You could have any number of things
take place, any sort of any

629
00:54:44.760 --> 00:54:51.360
number of evolutionary pathways on other planets
that also imbued a species with intelligence with

630
00:54:51.440 --> 00:54:54.800
a very different physical form than our
own. But in the context of this

631
00:54:54.880 --> 00:55:00.519
particular question, the fact that so
many, almost all, I think it's

632
00:55:00.519 --> 00:55:06.920
safe to say, of these reported
extra tempstrials, they're reported being bipedal.

633
00:55:06.960 --> 00:55:09.800
I think that's important to consider in
the context of this argument. But there's

634
00:55:09.920 --> 00:55:14.960
most certainly a lot of life out
there in the universe, and a lot

635
00:55:14.960 --> 00:55:20.280
of intelligent life, but they aren't
likely to look like us or these bipedal

636
00:55:20.320 --> 00:55:25.239
descendants that are commonly reported in instances
of close encounters. So it's more about

637
00:55:25.280 --> 00:55:30.840
just connecting the dots with this particular
phenomenon rather than saying that this had to

638
00:55:30.880 --> 00:55:37.519
have happened this specific way to get
intelligence. Almost the opposite. I mean,

639
00:55:37.679 --> 00:55:40.920
it's and I think it's a strong
argument you know you're making, which

640
00:55:42.000 --> 00:55:50.239
is it was a certain specific you
know, factors that made us by pedal,

641
00:55:51.480 --> 00:56:00.000
and that the odds of another civilization
or species that becomes intelligent going through

642
00:56:00.039 --> 00:56:07.719
the same process are so low that
that's another indicator that you know, kind

643
00:56:07.719 --> 00:56:12.199
of equals p equals. See,
hey, if they're bipedal and we're bipedal.

644
00:56:12.840 --> 00:56:17.559
Yeah, it demonstrates another strong argument
that it's in the future. Yeah,

645
00:56:17.639 --> 00:56:22.119
and yeah, it's it's really unlikely
that this would happen somewhere else,

646
00:56:22.159 --> 00:56:27.039
and not just because of the gravity
thing that I just mentioned. I think

647
00:56:27.079 --> 00:56:30.159
that's a very important thing to consider, but even beyond that, the different

648
00:56:30.199 --> 00:56:36.800
chemistries, the different distance from the
Sun, the atmosphere, the chemical compositions

649
00:56:36.840 --> 00:56:45.000
of the planet itself, and the
fact that we all arose with DNA RNA

650
00:56:45.159 --> 00:56:51.400
early on and then DNA and all
life forms today have those that same coating

651
00:56:51.440 --> 00:56:55.760
system, that same basic building block. With any other nucleotide or with any

652
00:56:55.960 --> 00:57:04.119
other molecule, you could have a
just entirely different structure of life. So

653
00:57:04.719 --> 00:57:08.000
yeah, there's a lot of things
very specific to us and how we are

654
00:57:08.079 --> 00:57:12.880
now that happened throughout the last three
and a half billion years of life on

655
00:57:12.920 --> 00:57:15.880
this planet, and especially throughout the
last six million years of hominine evolution.

656
00:57:15.960 --> 00:57:22.440
It's just tremendously unlikely that anything similar
to what we experienced would also happen on

657
00:57:22.519 --> 00:57:27.440
another planet at the same time,
close enough to us that we'd find each

658
00:57:27.440 --> 00:57:37.559
other. M hm. So another
I guess influence on our features that you

659
00:57:37.719 --> 00:57:45.039
talk about is from domestication. And
now that may be a trait that could

660
00:57:45.039 --> 00:57:50.440
be more universal because it doesn't matter
whether you're bipedal or not. In fact,

661
00:57:50.440 --> 00:57:57.920
I've seen studies on you know,
foxes in Russia on this. You're

662
00:57:58.000 --> 00:58:00.679
probably aware of these studies, but
maybe could talk about that. What traits

663
00:58:01.159 --> 00:58:08.039
domestication influences. Yeah, there's actually
quite a few. In You're right,

664
00:58:08.199 --> 00:58:15.320
that would be one of those traits, that is, it would be expected

665
00:58:15.360 --> 00:58:22.599
to lead to some similarities simply because
it does happen the same way or in

666
00:58:22.639 --> 00:58:25.400
a similar way across various species,
And you write foxes were one of the

667
00:58:25.480 --> 00:58:30.519
earliest examples. I talk about this
in the book quite a lot. In

668
00:58:30.599 --> 00:58:37.480
sight some of the research that you
mentioned, where you take a wild animal

669
00:58:37.400 --> 00:58:43.679
and you start to domesticate, you
start to select for pro social traits and

670
00:58:43.960 --> 00:58:50.480
traits that are kind of associated with
getting along well with each other and with

671
00:58:50.559 --> 00:58:55.639
other species in this case us and
yeah, with foxes specifically, their ears

672
00:58:55.639 --> 00:59:00.119
would start to get floppy, their
tails would would change, it would start

673
00:59:00.159 --> 00:59:05.519
to bark, which isn't a characteristic
that you see in the wild, and

674
00:59:05.880 --> 00:59:10.280
really across various species, we see
these same types of changes morphological and behavioral

675
00:59:10.320 --> 00:59:15.480
traits taking place, and the same
things happen with humans with self domestication.

676
00:59:15.519 --> 00:59:22.199
A lot of people don't realize that
we have domesticated ourselves, and especially since

677
00:59:22.320 --> 00:59:28.239
the Neolithic Revolution, with the rise
of agriculture and civilizations, we've had selection

678
00:59:28.840 --> 00:59:32.000
for pro social behaviors where we get
along with each other, we can live

679
00:59:32.039 --> 00:59:38.320
in larger groups, and there's a
number of things that happen that could connect

680
00:59:39.079 --> 00:59:44.159
us now with us in the future. And depigmentation is one of these,

681
00:59:45.760 --> 00:59:52.440
just a retardation and the proliferation and
migration from the neurocrest cells of the milano

682
00:59:52.480 --> 00:59:57.960
blasts, and those are the embryonic
precursors to the melanocytes that form melanin in

683
00:59:57.960 --> 01:00:01.360
the scan and give us our dark
skin tone. And that's one of these

684
01:00:01.360 --> 01:00:06.840
other traits associated with self domestication and
the domestication of other animals, is that

685
01:00:06.880 --> 01:00:12.239
we see this depigmentation take place,
and that could help explain the grayish hue

686
01:00:12.480 --> 01:00:17.559
in the skin of these grays specifically, and other ones that are described as

687
01:00:17.559 --> 01:00:23.440
being kind of pale skinned and frail. Those could be an aspect of this

688
01:00:23.519 --> 01:00:29.159
domestication process with regard to us specifically, but we do see that in other

689
01:00:29.239 --> 01:00:32.639
species as well. So, yeah, when we started to self domesticate,

690
01:00:34.280 --> 01:00:36.880
and this is a pretty recent trend
really if you think about it, in

691
01:00:36.920 --> 01:00:39.360
a six million year history of hominins, it's only in the last ten to

692
01:00:39.400 --> 01:00:44.280
twelve thousand years that these things have
even been taking place. But there has

693
01:00:44.360 --> 01:00:50.280
also been an acceleration in the rate
of change in many of our morphological and

694
01:00:50.320 --> 01:00:58.360
behavioral features. So the rise of
civilizations and agriculture beginning ten to twelve thousand

695
01:00:58.400 --> 01:01:01.920
years ago is likely one of the
things that helped accelerate this process forward.

696
01:01:04.159 --> 01:01:07.880
And some of those traits being like
larger eyes. Yeah right, yeah,

697
01:01:07.920 --> 01:01:13.400
and that's actually I'm glad you brought
that up. That's what I did my

698
01:01:13.599 --> 01:01:17.239
PhD thesis on was the not the
evolution of eyes because they don't preserve in

699
01:01:17.280 --> 01:01:22.119
the fossil record, but the evolution
of the eye orbits and how those change

700
01:01:22.480 --> 01:01:30.880
in relation to an expanding neurocranium above
and retracting face nasomaxillary complex and all of

701
01:01:30.920 --> 01:01:36.400
the lower facial features below. What
happens to the eye orbits throughout this time,

702
01:01:36.440 --> 01:01:39.960
And even though we don't have the
ability to study the eyes themselves,

703
01:01:40.039 --> 01:01:45.599
because like all soft tissue, they
just brought away when an individual dies,

704
01:01:45.679 --> 01:01:57.079
because they are so tightly linked to
the fore brain in integration capacity a morphological

705
01:01:57.119 --> 01:02:02.840
integration. As the brain and the
specialtually the frontal lobe of the brain expands,

706
01:02:02.880 --> 01:02:07.960
we would expect our eyes to grow
larger too. They're thought to be

707
01:02:07.039 --> 01:02:13.960
linked because of what's known as pleotropic
gene control mechanisms, where the same gene

708
01:02:13.960 --> 01:02:17.199
controls for the development of different traits
as we see them, and the eye

709
01:02:17.280 --> 01:02:23.039
grows directly out of the brain during
early fetal ontogeny. So we would expect

710
01:02:23.199 --> 01:02:28.320
that those two things would grow larger
in association with one another, one being

711
01:02:28.360 --> 01:02:35.039
selected for because of intelligence, the
fact that that part of our brain gives

712
01:02:35.119 --> 01:02:38.039
us our higher level thinking, and
the eye just kind of goes along for

713
01:02:38.079 --> 01:02:43.800
the ride. And in fact,
a lot of my research looks at this

714
01:02:43.840 --> 01:02:49.960
evolutionary trend in the context of nearsightedness, juvenile onset, myopia, and a

715
01:02:50.039 --> 01:02:54.719
larger eye is actually bad. It's
the main correlate for nearsightedness that you have

716
01:02:54.800 --> 01:03:00.360
an eye that's too large and it
changes the focal length and all kinds of

717
01:03:00.400 --> 01:03:07.400
other things or esoteric things related to
ophthalmology. But the larger I is actually

718
01:03:07.440 --> 01:03:14.119
an evolutionary trade off, I would
argue, a negative thing resulting from our

719
01:03:14.760 --> 01:03:19.280
brains growing larger, and especially the
development of the forebrain. So yeah,

720
01:03:19.320 --> 01:03:22.559
I think I think we can really
kind of dig deeper, even not just

721
01:03:22.679 --> 01:03:27.880
surface levels stuff like bipedalism, but
really look at the I mean, you

722
01:03:27.960 --> 01:03:32.000
shaw, the details of our specific
evolutionary history, things that have happened over

723
01:03:32.000 --> 01:03:37.480
the long term and more recently in
the context of self domestication and others,

724
01:03:37.559 --> 01:03:42.320
and really kind of see these patterns
emerge that may connect our past to our

725
01:03:42.360 --> 01:03:45.920
future in a long term evolutionary sense. Mm hm. So there are a

726
01:03:45.960 --> 01:03:54.119
lot of biological, you know,
reasons that to that support your argument.

727
01:03:54.639 --> 01:03:59.840
But the physics you've also found,
you know, the physics of time travel.

728
01:04:00.239 --> 01:04:02.679
Like you said, this isn't your
area, but you've certainly looked into

729
01:04:02.760 --> 01:04:09.880
it quite a bit. And the
physics of time travel is I guess one

730
01:04:09.960 --> 01:04:13.880
of the questions would be because it
comes to the tech. Okay, the

731
01:04:13.960 --> 01:04:17.639
tech would be now we've got the
biology, dan, will people develop or

732
01:04:17.719 --> 01:04:25.199
other you know, species and other
planets grow to be intelligent? Who knows?

733
01:04:25.559 --> 01:04:30.199
Likely? But the tech can they
get there from here? Is that

734
01:04:30.320 --> 01:04:34.639
technology even possible? And so But
on your side that the tech question is

735
01:04:34.760 --> 01:04:41.039
time travel? Is that even possible? Could we even do that? Yeah,

736
01:04:41.119 --> 01:04:45.639
It's obviously a very important part of
the argument. And in the same

737
01:04:45.679 --> 01:04:51.599
way that we can see a sort
of broad connection in our morphological form and

738
01:04:51.639 --> 01:04:56.760
the evolutionary changes that have taken place
to get to where we are now and

739
01:04:57.159 --> 01:05:00.840
presumably into the future to get to
where we will be, then you can

740
01:05:00.960 --> 01:05:04.599
kind of see the same thing happen
in the context of technology. I live

741
01:05:04.639 --> 01:05:11.320
in a really unique place that has
a rich mining history in Butte, Montana,

742
01:05:11.920 --> 01:05:15.960
and I was on the board of
the World Mining Museum until recently,

743
01:05:16.480 --> 01:05:20.760
and just seeing all of these technologies
that they used in a very recent past,

744
01:05:20.920 --> 01:05:26.079
only seventy five hundred years ago,
and just how primitive they were and

745
01:05:26.119 --> 01:05:30.119
how far we've come in that period
of time. In one hundred years from

746
01:05:30.119 --> 01:05:33.960
now, people are going to look
at what we're using for what are seemingly

747
01:05:34.199 --> 01:05:41.599
very cutting edge technological innovations, and
the things that we use and do,

748
01:05:42.079 --> 01:05:45.920
they're going to seem so archic in
the context of where we are in one

749
01:05:46.000 --> 01:05:51.079
hundred years, one thousand years,
tens of thousands of years. So if

750
01:05:51.159 --> 01:05:56.400
we look at the rapid rate of
change in our culture and technology, and

751
01:05:56.559 --> 01:06:03.199
especially in the context of what is
the dominant understanding among physicists today that there's

752
01:06:03.280 --> 01:06:08.480
nothing in the laws of physics that
prohibit backward time travel, at that point,

753
01:06:08.559 --> 01:06:12.079
it just becomes a question of when
we will do it, when we'll

754
01:06:12.440 --> 01:06:16.239
figure out how to do it,
but also have developed the materials that will

755
01:06:16.239 --> 01:06:19.079
allow it, because there's no doubt
it's going to take a tremendous amount of

756
01:06:19.199 --> 01:06:25.840
energy, likely rotational force, and
the materials that we have today just aren't

757
01:06:25.920 --> 01:06:33.719
capable of withithstanding those types of accelerations
and rotational forces. So yeah, I

758
01:06:33.719 --> 01:06:39.639
think it would sell us short as
a species to say that we'll never be

759
01:06:39.760 --> 01:06:43.760
able to do that if there's nothing
that forbids it in the laws of physics,

760
01:06:44.559 --> 01:06:46.920
it's just it's shooting us in the
foot to say that we'll never figure

761
01:06:46.920 --> 01:06:50.480
out how to do it. We've
come so far and there's no doubt in

762
01:06:50.480 --> 01:06:55.760
my mind that that's something that we'll
eventually be able to figure out as well.

763
01:06:56.719 --> 01:07:00.960
And it's kind of interesting that the
conversation about, you know, highly

764
01:07:00.000 --> 01:07:09.360
advanced theoretical method to travel great distances
are very tied to time and time manipulation

765
01:07:09.559 --> 01:07:14.599
and space time, and it's almost
as though the technologies develop at the same

766
01:07:14.639 --> 01:07:19.599
time. Absolutely, yeah, And
a lot of the more precocious folks that

767
01:07:19.679 --> 01:07:27.039
listen to my lecture realize that if
we also need to travel at a high

768
01:07:27.079 --> 01:07:31.400
rate of speed to go deep into
the past, that would also give us

769
01:07:31.440 --> 01:07:36.519
the ability to check out other star
systems potentially. And one of the biggest

770
01:07:36.519 --> 01:07:47.599
problems with traveling fast distances is that
you instantly detach yourself from everyone that's alive

771
01:07:47.639 --> 01:07:50.920
at that time, simply because of
the effects of time dilation when you travel

772
01:07:50.920 --> 01:07:55.960
at a high rate of speed relative
to the speed of light as you're going

773
01:07:56.000 --> 01:07:59.880
out, Because if you say you're
traveling at the speed of light, you

774
01:08:00.000 --> 01:08:04.159
see time stop on Earth simply because
those are all of the moments that took

775
01:08:04.239 --> 01:08:08.960
place as you're traveling with those beams
of light that left Earth. But when

776
01:08:09.000 --> 01:08:14.639
you come back now instantly you're traveling
through all of those periods of time at

777
01:08:14.639 --> 01:08:17.720
a tremendous rate of speed, going
backward against the light that had just been

778
01:08:17.720 --> 01:08:23.399
moving with you. And by the
time you get back, everyone that was

779
01:08:23.439 --> 01:08:27.600
alive when you left has been long
dead. You've traveled thousands, tens of

780
01:08:27.600 --> 01:08:30.840
thousands of years into the future,
and nobody's going to be willing to do

781
01:08:30.880 --> 01:08:34.479
that on any planet anywhere. But
with the ability to manipulate time as well,

782
01:08:35.039 --> 01:08:40.520
it gets around that problem. Now
as you're traveling back to your planet,

783
01:08:41.079 --> 01:08:44.560
times moving forward when you get there, or as you're moving, you

784
01:08:44.600 --> 01:08:47.319
can reverse time to come back to
the same time as when you left.

785
01:08:47.359 --> 01:08:54.000
And that's a really important thing I
think for people to understand is we would

786
01:08:54.079 --> 01:09:00.840
still have the ability to be an
interstellar if we also the ability to time

787
01:09:00.880 --> 01:09:03.239
travel. And one other important thing
to keep in mind too is that it

788
01:09:03.239 --> 01:09:10.279
would also account for these tremendous g
forces as we observe them. There's no

789
01:09:10.359 --> 01:09:15.560
way you could put a living creature
inside these craft and then have them do

790
01:09:15.000 --> 01:09:20.039
what we perceive them doing. The
rapid accelerations, especially when they take off

791
01:09:20.560 --> 01:09:26.279
up into the sky, it would
crush any organism inside. But again,

792
01:09:26.319 --> 01:09:30.279
with the ability to manipulate space time
in and around that craft, what we

793
01:09:30.319 --> 01:09:35.039
see is this tremendously rapid acceleration to
them may simply be a slow, gradual

794
01:09:35.079 --> 01:09:43.000
ascent, simply because they're able to
manipulate space time in that localized reference frame.

795
01:09:44.720 --> 01:09:49.199
You've also, you know, pointed
out that the technology for time travel

796
01:09:51.000 --> 01:09:58.239
were some of these theoretical ideas developed, the devices might look like a disk.

797
01:09:59.039 --> 01:10:02.880
Yeah. Yeah, that's in the
same way that we could potentially tie

798
01:10:02.920 --> 01:10:10.479
together the morphological and cultural aspects of
humans. If we look at the progression

799
01:10:10.479 --> 01:10:15.119
of our understanding of how we might
create close timelike curves, a very ubiquitous

800
01:10:15.159 --> 01:10:20.239
feature is that you have the rotation
of a highly energetic and or a massive

801
01:10:21.560 --> 01:10:27.399
Originally it was a cylinder, and
then a ring model, and then a

802
01:10:27.479 --> 01:10:32.840
disk. Yeah, the Tipler cylinders
in the nineteen seventies physicists Frank Tipler describing

803
01:10:33.760 --> 01:10:40.880
an actual physical way in reality to
create a time machine, something that can

804
01:10:40.920 --> 01:10:45.000
create close timelight curves and return to
the past. So, yeah, we

805
01:10:45.079 --> 01:10:48.880
have this common idiom in biology that
form follows function, and if we look

806
01:10:48.920 --> 01:10:54.479
at the form of these craft in
the context of all of the solutions.

807
01:10:54.479 --> 01:11:00.000
Steinstein's field equations are the vast majority
of them since publishing his papers on general

808
01:11:00.119 --> 01:11:04.239
relativity in nineteen fifteen. If we
look at the form of these craft in

809
01:11:04.279 --> 01:11:10.520
the context of that research, it
sort of indicates that they may have the

810
01:11:10.600 --> 01:11:15.840
function of achieving backward time travel.
So I think it's another important connection to

811
01:11:15.960 --> 01:11:20.319
consider in the context of this model. And then, finally, because we're

812
01:11:20.399 --> 01:11:25.359
kind of running out of time here, one aspect that you talk about that

813
01:11:25.399 --> 01:11:30.000
I think is interesting also is if
you take into account the people who believe

814
01:11:30.039 --> 01:11:42.000
that they've had experiences with extraterrestrial beings, what they claim to be told is

815
01:11:42.840 --> 01:11:47.520
interesting in that it kind of also
fits your argument with things like, you

816
01:11:47.560 --> 01:11:54.640
know, having an interest in how
we treat our planet in ourselves, and

817
01:11:55.800 --> 01:12:00.119
also their interest in our DNA.
Yeah, yeah, they're interested in our

818
01:12:00.239 --> 01:12:09.000
DNA and also our nuclear technologies.
That's certainly one that should also be considered.

819
01:12:09.000 --> 01:12:13.880
I mean, why would aliens from
a different planet care what we do

820
01:12:14.000 --> 01:12:19.239
here on this planet, and if
they're stakeholders in the future, if they

821
01:12:19.279 --> 01:12:25.319
have a vested interest in us not
destroying the Earth or blowing up a large

822
01:12:25.359 --> 01:12:30.760
segment of humanity. It would definitely
make sense in that context of them being

823
01:12:30.880 --> 01:12:36.520
us. But yeah, a lot
of contact ease report being told take care

824
01:12:36.520 --> 01:12:43.439
of your planet, or yeah,
a lot of them that are continually abducted

825
01:12:43.520 --> 01:12:47.000
and their families over long periods of
time, which is a very common aspect

826
01:12:47.000 --> 01:12:51.000
of this phenomenon. That the same
person will be picked up that they often

827
01:12:51.119 --> 01:12:56.199
describe having some sort of tracking device
implanted in them, which would facilitate that

828
01:12:56.640 --> 01:13:00.279
at a later date save some time
as far as the researchers and what they're

829
01:13:00.319 --> 01:13:04.399
trying to do to locate someone,
But why they would pick up that same

830
01:13:04.399 --> 01:13:10.800
individual multiple times or other family members
would kind of make sense in the context

831
01:13:10.880 --> 01:13:18.640
of DNA and sampling gam meats or
collecting DNA from different individuals, but with

832
01:13:18.880 --> 01:13:24.600
DNA that serves some purpose to them, that has some function in those more

833
01:13:24.640 --> 01:13:30.560
distant societies in the future. When
we're discussing DNA, you also address the

834
01:13:30.960 --> 01:13:38.600
idea of hybrids. You know,
this idea that whatever's coming here is kind

835
01:13:38.640 --> 01:13:45.760
of creating hybrids with them and us, but you point out that that is

836
01:13:45.800 --> 01:13:49.720
another indication that you know and for
that to be possible, they would have

837
01:13:49.760 --> 01:13:54.600
to be very closely related to us. Yeah, they would have to be

838
01:13:54.760 --> 01:14:01.199
us based on the biological definition of
what a specie is. It takes two

839
01:14:01.359 --> 01:14:08.840
organisms that are able to reproduce,
but importantly reproduce viable offspring. And the

840
01:14:08.880 --> 01:14:11.960
most common example is the donkey and
the horse. They can make a mule,

841
01:14:12.359 --> 01:14:15.760
but that mule isn't fertile. So
therefore, under this definition of species,

842
01:14:16.319 --> 01:14:20.560
the donkey and the horse are different. They are different species. So

843
01:14:21.000 --> 01:14:26.000
yeah, if people believe the hybridization
is taking place, then they would have

844
01:14:26.359 --> 01:14:31.840
to also acknowledge that these are indeed
us. They are in the hominin lineage

845
01:14:33.600 --> 01:14:39.000
and close enough to us in time
that they would be able to do that

846
01:14:39.880 --> 01:14:44.399
our closest living relative to chimpanzee.
Again, we can't produce viable offspring with

847
01:14:44.479 --> 01:14:47.960
them, even though we share a
very recent common ancestry in the sense of

848
01:14:48.000 --> 01:14:54.920
geologic times. So yeah, I
think the question of hybrids really needs to

849
01:14:54.960 --> 01:14:59.600
be considered in the context of this
extra tempestrial model because it's really the only

850
01:14:59.640 --> 01:15:02.560
way that could take place. You
couldn't have an organism on a different planet

851
01:15:03.319 --> 01:15:08.600
evolve again to be so much like
us, but to also reproduce with us.

852
01:15:08.640 --> 01:15:13.399
That's just it's nearly impossible that that
would ever happen, given the fact

853
01:15:13.439 --> 01:15:16.880
that we can't reproduce with anything else
on this planet at this time, even

854
01:15:16.920 --> 01:15:23.760
though we share this same planet and
the same evolutionary history in the sense of

855
01:15:23.920 --> 01:15:29.319
the long term evolution of life.
Hmm. Well, this is also incredibly

856
01:15:29.479 --> 01:15:33.239
fascinating, and I feel like we
barely were able even to scratch the surface

857
01:15:33.279 --> 01:15:39.159
here. So i'd highly highly recommend
that people watch your lecture because even though

858
01:15:39.159 --> 01:15:42.159
it's like an hour, you had
an hour and fifteen minutes, but you

859
01:15:42.159 --> 01:15:45.920
stopped at an hour because you're but
you took some great questions from the audience.

860
01:15:45.960 --> 01:15:48.560
Yeah. Yeah, I thought that
was kind of funny that I wrote

861
01:15:48.560 --> 01:15:54.439
a book about time and then couldn't
keep time during my lecture. Now,

862
01:15:55.239 --> 01:15:58.800
but no, it worked out well
because we did have some question answer time.

863
01:15:58.920 --> 01:16:02.000
So yeah, it's good. And
I mean, because really I think

864
01:16:02.039 --> 01:16:05.439
that that this is a very important
lecture and I'm going to be passing this

865
01:16:05.560 --> 01:16:11.720
around quite a bit because it makes
a very strong argument for something that you

866
01:16:11.720 --> 01:16:15.439
know, should be talked about more
often, is that you know this theory

867
01:16:15.439 --> 01:16:18.560
that it's us from the future,
which is you know, I think you're

868
01:16:18.680 --> 01:16:23.600
arguing, and I think you have
a strong argument that it's a more likely

869
01:16:24.760 --> 01:16:30.640
possibility than people from elsewhere. Yeah, but again, you know, I'd

870
01:16:30.680 --> 01:16:36.520
like to reiterate that they aren't mutually
exclusive, that this extra tempastoral model doesn't

871
01:16:36.760 --> 01:16:42.760
mean that there can't still be extra
terrestrials. I just think at least the

872
01:16:42.840 --> 01:16:48.800
vast majority of reported encounters would seem
to be us. But but again,

873
01:16:48.960 --> 01:16:56.239
it doesn't. It doesn't preclude any
sort of interdimensionality. I mean this,

874
01:16:56.239 --> 01:17:01.479
this model is interdimensional. That's exactly
what it is. But other theories should

875
01:17:01.520 --> 01:17:05.399
also be considered. Again, I'd
try to be as inclusive as possible and

876
01:17:05.720 --> 01:17:10.800
not discount any any valid argument.
I think we should all all be that

877
01:17:10.840 --> 01:17:15.840
way. M hmm, Well it's
great staff. Where where's the best place

878
01:17:15.840 --> 01:17:21.159
for people to get your book?
Well, Amazon's always a good safe bet.

879
01:17:21.960 --> 01:17:26.760
There. There's links through my website, which is just a shortened version

880
01:17:26.800 --> 01:17:30.239
of the title I'd fly obj I
D F L y O b J dot

881
01:17:30.239 --> 01:17:36.880
com. There's Barnes and Noble Cobo. There's an audio book available through Audible,

882
01:17:36.960 --> 01:17:41.039
and there's links to all of those
on the website. But it's it's

883
01:17:41.079 --> 01:17:45.720
available pretty much anywhere you can buy
books on the internet and in some bookstores

884
01:17:45.760 --> 01:17:51.119
and other shops and things. So
yeah, it's it's widely available. I

885
01:17:51.119 --> 01:17:55.279
guess you could say, all right, well, great, thank you so

886
01:17:55.479 --> 01:18:00.319
much for your work. I mean, it's just amazing how much work you've

887
01:18:00.319 --> 01:18:04.560
put into this and how much you've
touched upon here in the book and in

888
01:18:04.600 --> 01:18:09.880
your lecture. And thank you so
much for coming on the show. Yeah,

889
01:18:09.920 --> 01:18:12.600
thank you all. Andrew, it's
been great talking to you. Thank

890
01:18:12.640 --> 01:18:16.000
you so much to Michael Masters for
being on the show. Be sure to

891
01:18:16.079 --> 01:18:23.199
check out his book, Identified Flying
Objects, a multi disciplinary academic approach to

892
01:18:23.239 --> 01:18:28.399
the UFO phenomenon, and it certainly
is. I think he's done an incredible

893
01:18:28.479 --> 01:18:31.279
job. Be sure to check out
his video. It'll be up on the

894
01:18:31.399 --> 01:18:38.079
UFO Congress website in the Videos on
Demand, so you'll be able to see

895
01:18:38.079 --> 01:18:42.119
that on the front page of UFO
Congress the link to the Videos on Demand,

896
01:18:42.520 --> 01:18:45.880
or you can also see that on
the social media and my social media

897
01:18:45.920 --> 01:18:50.520
you'll see links to that so you
can watch his excellent lecture. If you're

898
01:18:50.560 --> 01:18:57.119
still watching DVDs, you can actually
order those from the UFO Congress store as

899
01:18:57.159 --> 01:19:01.399
well, and his lecture was incredible. I haven't gotten through the whole book,

900
01:19:01.439 --> 01:19:05.960
but the book, you know,
outlines this this theory in detail,

901
01:19:06.479 --> 01:19:12.880
and really we were only able to
scratch the surface in this interview. The

902
01:19:12.960 --> 01:19:17.840
work he's done is outstanding. It's
so detailed, and there are so many

903
01:19:18.159 --> 01:19:24.760
things that he explored that really fit
the phenomenon. I'm someone who I feel,

904
01:19:24.920 --> 01:19:29.399
you know, knows this phenomena fairly
well, been looking into it and

905
01:19:29.399 --> 01:19:32.840
writing about it for so long,
and it's incredible to me, you know,

906
01:19:32.920 --> 01:19:36.319
how much fits with this theory,
which I think is such a viable

907
01:19:36.399 --> 01:19:42.279
possibility and is something everybody should be
considering. So check out his book.

908
01:19:42.760 --> 01:19:46.600
The URL that we talked about is
kind of weird. It's I d f

909
01:19:46.920 --> 01:19:54.600
l yob J, so essentially id
fly object, so I d f L

910
01:19:54.800 --> 01:19:59.479
y oh b J. You can
probably just google the name of his book,

911
01:19:59.520 --> 01:20:04.600
Identify Flying Objects, a Multidisciplinary academic
approach to the UFO phenomena, and

912
01:20:04.720 --> 01:20:11.880
find his links to his books as
well. So really great stuff. It's

913
01:20:11.920 --> 01:20:15.399
been so nice actually to get to
know him. I saw him at Alien

914
01:20:15.439 --> 01:20:21.439
Con and then again at the UFO
Congress. He's very intelligent, he's got

915
01:20:21.479 --> 01:20:25.920
a great sense of humor. He
actually plays music too. We didn't even

916
01:20:25.960 --> 01:20:29.279
get how he's in a rock band, which is pretty cool too. So

917
01:20:29.479 --> 01:20:32.039
very cool dude. Happy to meet
him, Happy to have him on the

918
01:20:32.079 --> 01:20:36.640
show. Finally, and if you
couldn't tell, I'm very enthusiastic about his

919
01:20:36.800 --> 01:20:42.800
work, so check it out.
Otherwise, thank you to Martin Willis for

920
01:20:42.960 --> 01:20:45.439
joining us at the beginning of the
show. That guy is such a character

921
01:20:45.640 --> 01:20:50.680
and always a lot of fun.
Do check out his debate with Seth Shosteck

922
01:20:51.600 --> 01:20:57.640
about the search for extraterrestrial intelligence.
He did a great job, and he's

923
01:20:57.680 --> 01:21:00.760
been gearing up. I think this
is his second little debate that he's had

924
01:21:00.800 --> 01:21:04.199
with him, and he's done a
lot better. So he's learned. He's

925
01:21:04.319 --> 01:21:08.319
learned. And the third one,
oh my gosh, Martin's going to take

926
01:21:08.439 --> 01:21:12.479
him down so hard. But of
course I am a big fan of Sessho

927
01:21:12.560 --> 01:21:15.600
Stacks. Of course I don't agree
with all of its views when it comes

928
01:21:15.640 --> 01:21:19.319
to UFOs, but otherwise I do. And if you do get a chance

929
01:21:19.399 --> 01:21:23.960
to see him, go do it. He does a lot of talks all

930
01:21:24.000 --> 01:21:27.399
over the place around the world,
and his talks are a lot of fun.

931
01:21:27.439 --> 01:21:30.079
He's very witty, and he makes
an incredible argument. You can find

932
01:21:30.119 --> 01:21:33.720
some online too that you know,
there's got to be aliens out there somewhere

933
01:21:33.760 --> 01:21:40.479
and intelligent civilization, so it's funny
he makes that argument, but has you

934
01:21:40.520 --> 01:21:44.680
know, no interest in the possibility
that they may be visiting us already,

935
01:21:44.920 --> 01:21:47.079
which is a possibility, who knows. Check it out, dude. There's

936
01:21:47.079 --> 01:21:51.760
some interesting stuff out there, as
we all know, so that's a lot

937
01:21:51.760 --> 01:21:55.479
of fun. Otherwise, let's see
what else is going on. More and

938
01:21:55.479 --> 01:21:59.479
more videos are coming up from the
UFO Congress as we have kind of gotten

939
01:21:59.560 --> 01:22:04.239
real stack pablished and gotten our feet
under us after that event, which is

940
01:22:04.279 --> 01:22:11.239
always such a large undertaking every year, so every really pretty much every day.

941
01:22:11.279 --> 01:22:14.720
There are more videos from the conference
getting out there, and they can

942
01:22:14.800 --> 01:22:19.720
all be purchased on DVD at the
Ufocongress dot com website, so do check

943
01:22:19.760 --> 01:22:24.239
all of those out. Otherwise,
a lot of exciting stuff going on.

944
01:22:24.279 --> 01:22:27.680
Of course, Martin and I talked
about the army and to the stars working

945
01:22:27.760 --> 01:22:31.079
together, holy moly, and I
think that you know, this isn't the

946
01:22:31.199 --> 01:22:36.560
end of some extraordinary revelations regarding all
of this and the government that will be

947
01:22:36.640 --> 01:22:42.279
going on. So we live in
extraordinary times when it comes to UFOs,

948
01:22:42.880 --> 01:22:45.840
and I like to pride myself on
being one of those people at the cutting

949
01:22:45.920 --> 01:22:54.640
edge of bringing you all this information. So I think that we've got a

950
01:22:54.680 --> 01:23:00.399
lot of fun stuff in the future
ahead for us. So I guess,

951
01:23:00.039 --> 01:23:02.560
Hank tight, I'm going to have
some more shows in the future. I

952
01:23:02.640 --> 01:23:06.039
got a lot of great people to
interview, so we're going to have some

953
01:23:06.159 --> 01:23:12.600
fun on some upcoming podcasts. But
as usual, I want to thank Caleb

954
01:23:12.640 --> 01:23:15.880
Hanks for the excellent Open and Closed
music. You can find a link to

955
01:23:16.199 --> 01:23:20.960
his website. He's got a Patreon
site and a SoundCloud site where he puts

956
01:23:21.039 --> 01:23:26.399
up a lot of really really cool
music. But on the openminds dot tv

957
01:23:26.520 --> 01:23:30.000
site for the podcast, we have
a link to his stuff. Do go

958
01:23:30.199 --> 01:23:32.840
check it out. Thank you to
Systematics for the bumper music. And of

959
01:23:32.920 --> 01:23:38.439
course thank you, yeah, that's
right, you the listener, the one

960
01:23:38.439 --> 01:23:44.079
who's listening right now. Thank you
so much for listening. You know you

961
01:23:44.119 --> 01:23:47.800
all inspire me to keep this all
going. It's so fun to share all

962
01:23:47.840 --> 01:23:54.399
of this great information and these incredible
things happening right now. And of course

963
01:23:54.439 --> 01:23:59.039
it would be all for not if
I didn't have any listeners, and I've

964
01:23:59.039 --> 01:24:00.800
got the best listener. I met
you, and I think I've told you

965
01:24:00.840 --> 01:24:03.840
all before. I meet you guys, and you're so smart, you're so

966
01:24:04.000 --> 01:24:09.439
good looking. You've got great smiles. You know that's something unique about my

967
01:24:09.520 --> 01:24:13.119
listeners too. I think you'll have
some wonderful smiles, so I love seeing

968
01:24:13.159 --> 01:24:16.399
them when I get a chance.
And I'll let you know the next event

969
01:24:16.479 --> 01:24:20.359
i'll be at so I can meet
more of you. It's always a treat.

970
01:24:20.560 --> 01:24:25.560
But thank you all so much for
listening. Until next time, audio

971
01:24:25.840 --> 01:25:14.520
smooth tautchos. You were motionless